2026 Best Picture Power Rankings, and the Best Movies at TIFF. Plus: Zach Cregger on ‘Resident Evil’!

In today’s action-packed episode, Sean and Amanda react to ‘Resident Evil’ smashing its opening weekend box office expectations, Paramount settling lawsuits paving the way for the Warner Bros. merger to go through, and the new trailer released for ‘The Further Misadventures of Cliff Booth.’ Then, they bring in mean pod guy Adam Nayman to break down the good, the bad, and the strange from the Toronto International Film Festival. Next, Sean and Amanda construct their first Best Picture power rankings of the year and go over 31 possible contenders for the Oscars' biggest prize. Finally, Zach Cregger joins the show to have an in-depth (spoilers included) conversation about his new film, ‘Resident Evil,’ and explains why it was the hardest thing he’s ever made. (0:00) Intro (1:56) ‘Resident Evil’'s big box office success (3:02) Paramount to settle lawsuits, paving the way for Warner Bros. deal to go through (8:39) ‘The Further Misadventures of Cliff Booth’ trailer reaction (10:57) Teaser for Jeremy Saulnier’s new film, ‘Slayground!’ (14:15) ‘NARNIA’ NEWS (19:06) Best of TIFF with Adam Nayman! (54:04) The first Best Picture power rankings (1:23:42) Amanda’s thoughts on ‘Resident Evil’ (1:29:55) Zach Cregger joins the show! Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Zach Cregger and Adam Nayman Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan®. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there®. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Finacy.

• 0:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 0:17Sean Fennessey?

  And this is the Big Picture Right Conversation Show about awards and gore. Today on the show, Adam Nayman stops by with his annual report from the Toronto International Film Festival. Adam will share his favorite films from the fest and some movies he didn't like very much, and we'll talk about the big picture of that festival. The end of TIFF truly signals the start of award season, so we are also kickstarting our monthly Best Picture Power Rankings tradition. And then, after all that, Zach Craigor joins me to break down Resident Evil, his amazing new success video game adaptation. Zach has come on for all of his films. This time, he was in person. He's incredibly insightful and fun and funny to talk about movies with. You'll want to stick around for that, which is a slightly spoiler-filled conversation. But first, some movie news, right after this.

• 1:02Sean Fennessey?

  This episode is presented by State Farm. You know the feeling. Long day, good meal, you finally sit down, and now you're just staring at your screen. Slasher, rom-com, period drama, psychological thriller? But some decisions don't have to be that hard. State Farm is here to help. Like when you choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Bundling, just another way to save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state.

• 1:34Speaker 02

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• 1:59Speaker 03

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• 2:58Speaker 04

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 3:05Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, there's a lot of news going on.

• 3:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 3:07Sean Fennessey?

  There's a lot.

• 3:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 3:08Sean Fennessey?

  I feel like I saw you every day this weekend. We hung out a lot, and yet we didn't talk about any of this stuff.

• 3:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, yeah, because we didn't actually talk that much.

• 3:15Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 3:15Amanda Dobbins?

  We were just running after.

• 3:16Sean Fennessey?

  We chased children.

• 3:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and we played soccer with them. I guess I did see you every day.

• 3:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 3:20Amanda Dobbins?

  That's nice. Nice to be back with you.

• 3:21Sean Fennessey?

  Nice to be back with you as well. I played a lot of soccer with your son. He's getting very good.

• 3:27Sean Fennessey?

  Resident Evil made $60 million in the United States of America. This is Craigor's biggest movie of all time. It's $108 million global debut, biggest opening in franchise history, biggest opening of Craigor's career, biggest opening ever for an R-rated video game adaptation. And I think he goes into the, like...

• 3:43Amanda Dobbins?

  For sure.

• 3:44Sean Fennessey?

  Jordan Peele, Greta Gerwig.

• 3:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Name brand. This person has a movie coming out, and now we need to go to see it. It's, you know, not on the Nolan scale, but no one but Christopher Nolan is on the Nolan scale.

• 3:54Sean Fennessey?

  And, you know, it's not Tarantino, it's not Spielberg, but it's like, it's pretty name brand, you know?

• 3:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I went to the first available showing at 2:00 PM on a Thursday in Pasadena. I was the only woman there, but there are many... There were people seemingly solo. There were a couple buds.

• 4:10Sean Fennessey?

  I saw it a second time last night, and there were a lot of dates.

• 4:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, that's nice. I don't know how many of these were dates. It was mostly just people who had the vibe of, my guy released a new movie, and so I'm there at 2:00 PM on Thursday to see it. And I was also there for that reason.

• 4:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. We'll talk about your thoughts on the movie in a little bit. And Zach will talk a lot more about making the movie, which I think people will enjoy.

• 4:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm excited.

• 4:32Sean Fennessey?

  So Paramount is going to settle the lawsuits, and the merger's going to happen.

• 4:36Amanda Dobbins?

  I think, or Rob Bonta and the AGs are going to settle the lawsuits.

• 4:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. The AG's bent the knee? Is that what happened here?

• 4:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I, you know, I only was able to read part of the reading of the consent decree, whatever, and also, I am not legally trained in any way.

• 4:52Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, some high-level takeaways from this news, which you and I have been not really discussing over the last two months very purposely.

• 4:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Because most of it has been posturing from one side or the other in public to try to influence this, the ultimate resolution of sorts.

• 5:06Sean Fennessey?

  And everyone really wanted this to get done by the end of the year, on the Paramount side, obviously, because of the ticking fee that's happening, and because, who knows? As administrations change, there is going to be midterms. A lot could change in the corporate atmosphere, so...

• 5:19Amanda Dobbins?

  And the ticking fee was due to start on October 1st, and today is September 21st, so...

• 5:24Sean Fennessey?

  There we have it. Here's the things that it sounds like David Ellison and co. have agreed to, to make this go forward. One, operations in California will stay. No selling of the Paramount or Warner Brothers studio lots.

• 5:36Amanda Dobbins?

  That, that is... It does feel like those threats were a very cheap and scary threat.

• 5:42Sean Fennessey?

  Very saber rattling.

• 5:43Amanda Dobbins?

  To the many people who have built their lives in California while working for Paramount, but like, it's good that it's off the table.

• 5:51Sean Fennessey?

  I also personally feel that it would be unrecoverable to move operations to Tennessee and would dramatically change how Hollywood operates, so I'm thankful that that's not happening for a variety of reasons. Secondarily, an investment of an additional $300 million annually in US film production, which is meaningful. Now, $300 million is not $2 billion, but it is some money for shooting films here. I actually spent some time over the weekend talking with a friend who works on movies, and we talked about how just nothing films here anymore, and that everybody, my friends who are producers, spend six months out of the year in Ireland, or Budapest, or London, or, you know, they have to go other places just to make movies.

• 6:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 6:30Sean Fennessey?

  So the idea of establishing more of a beachhead here where movies were effectively born is helpful.

• 6:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. And also, maybe the places that are being portrayed could actually be portrayed by those places. I mean, it was a list of, you know, wherever across the world for Florida, and something else for San Diego, and it just starts to feel really silly, which I think everyone who is actually making movies and is traveling to these places and fighting for money and hiring people will tell you how incredibly stupid it is right now.

• 6:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, it feels very strange. Actually, Craigor talked about going to the Czech Republic to make Resident Evil to shoot what should be a fake American city. You know, this is a very common thing.

• 7:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 7:08Sean Fennessey?

  The next thing is the obligation to release at least 30 movies theatrically every year.

• 7:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 7:13Sean Fennessey?

  Which is a huge promise, and one that almost everybody I know is very skeptical of because of the challenges of a variety of factors. One, there's obviously the financial factor, how much money you're spending on movies. Two is the capacity, the space that you can make in movie theaters over a calendar year. Three is the marketing spend that is necessary to promote movies and not just put movies out that are going to instantaneously die. And four, just to have the amount of staff that can oversee the execution of this big, bold plan. Even though we are merging together two studios, we expect there to be redundancies, as they say.

• 7:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, they've said that it's many, many, many millions or billions of dollars in redundancies.

• 7:54Sean Fennessey?

  So Chris and I talked on Friday about whether or not the Clockwork imprint could potentially be a place to have more of a down-and-dirty, low-budget machine that can get somewhere between five and 10 movies into the marketplace every year, and then that will help allow them to achieve this big number. Any thoughts about this promise?

• 8:17Amanda Dobbins?

  So there are two specifications within it, which is that it's four independent movies a year, and then 20% of the 30, which is six movies a year, must be blockbusters. And I think the definition of blockbuster is 50 million or more.

• 8:31Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, that's not that high.

• 8:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I think that's written in, but yes, I would just say, so, and that there is the consequence that is apparently built in if they don't meet that threshold, is that they have to divest Miramax.

• 8:47Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting.

• 8:47Amanda Dobbins?

  That is, which is sort of a punishment, I think, or also then just maybe-

• 8:52Sean Fennessey?

  By message, just another buyer of some kind?

• 8:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 8:55Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 8:56Amanda Dobbins?

  But that is, that is the only consequence built in. And I think Bonta, in particular, had campaigned, literally, on making there be some, you know, harder financial consequences if, if they don't mean it.

• 9:11Sean Fennessey?

  That's notable. I think, for example, I believe Miramax is, and Dimension is tied into Scream, for example. So maybe that means giving up the rights to produce future Scream films, which, as we saw from the movie that came out earlier this year, is still very much a cash cow for them.

• 9:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 9:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, that's notable. And then another big one is establishing a third-party independent board to oversee CNN and CBS News in order to maintain the news outlets editorial independence.

• 9:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Okay.

• 9:35Sean Fennessey?

  We'll see how that works. You should listen to the Press Box. I'm sure that Brian and Joel and David will be talking about the ramifications of that. They've been covering the Barry Weiss 60 Minutes saga quite closely over the last few months. No, but you know what? I was not a 60 Minutes watcher before, so I'm not gonna stand on ceremony and be like, how dare you for something that didn't really meaningfully matter to me.

• 9:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Same.

• 9:56Sean Fennessey?

  Do I hope that there's independence for the journalists who are working in these spaces? I do.

• 10:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 10:00Sean Fennessey?

  I hope that that can be maintained. Let's move away from this, this settlement, because I presume there'll be some more turns of the wheel over the next couple of weeks.

• 10:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 10:09Sean Fennessey?

  Did you get the trailer for the Further Adventures of Cliff Booth, Misadventures of Cliff Booth?

• 10:13Amanda Dobbins?

  So I showed up later. I skipped the trailers, as you know, just because of a volume and time spent. But I did watch it online this morning, because it's now available online.

• 10:23Sean Fennessey?

  So we didn't get it, obviously, because we went to the screening and, press screening. And I went to the movies last night 30 to 60%, just to make sure I got to see the trailers. And then they didn't show the trailers. They didn't show the Cliff Booth trailer. They didn't show the trailer we'll talk about momentarily. But they did release the Cliff Booth trailer online this morning. I thought it was fascinating. I thought it was exactly what it is, which is it was, it just looks like a David Fincher movie?

• 10:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Sean Fennessey?

  With Quentin Tarantino gags in it?

• 10:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 10:51Sean Fennessey?

  And, and sharp lines of dialogue cut tightly in a trailer? What did you think?

• 10:57Amanda Dobbins?

  We're gonna talk more about Brad Pitt next week, I think, when Heart of the Beast comes on. I've, I've been sending you promo stills from Heart of the Beast.

• 11:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, two soldiers, a man and a dog.

• 11:09Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and a lot of camo. And then Brad Pitt's girlfriend getting off a lot of themed fits, depending on where they are, Tennessee or NASCAR.

• 11:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. That's something you know about, themed fits.

• 11:22Amanda Dobbins?

  We're, we're gonna, well, we'll need to have a Brad Pitt conversation, because even watching this trailer, I was like, oh. And the interesting thing about this role is that he has played it before.

• 11:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Amanda Dobbins?

  And so-

• 11:32Sean Fennessey?

  I thought he had the voice down. I was like, that is Cliff.

• 11:35Amanda Dobbins?

  But sure, but, but there's an energy and there is, there is something that is different.

• 11:41Sean Fennessey?

  Well, this is, this is again, like, sort of a teaser, where the first thing we saw on the Super Bowl was like a minute long, and this is only a minute and a half long. I, I got very excited by, I'll just say how the camera's moving.

• 11:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 11:54Sean Fennessey?

  I'll just say David Fincher in a demolition derby. I was like, I do want to see this.

• 11:57Amanda Dobbins?

  What Chris said, which is, you know, I'd watch the sewer if it were filmed by Fincher and written by Tarantino. Like, I agree. But I just, I will say, put a pin in the pit of it all, because-

• 12:09Sean Fennessey?

  Got it.

• 12:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I have been paying attention. I'm gonna see the dog movie by myself, I guess. Yeah.

• 12:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Amanda Dobbins?

  And-

• 12:16Sean Fennessey?

  I'm seeing it next Sunday night, if you'd like to join me.

• 12:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I'll have to check on my babysitting, but sure. By babysitting, I mean, my son, my husband taking care of my children. But, yeah.

• 12:27Sean Fennessey?

  There was another teaser attached to, I guess, some IMAX screenings, though not mine, of Resident Evil this weekend. And that's Jeremy Songe's new movie, which is called Slay Ground now. But the teaser, I don't think was for the movie, but I don't know.

• 12:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 12:44Sean Fennessey?

  And what was shown was effectively a 30-second, four-box surveillance footage of various people experiencing a haunted attraction that maybe was too close for comfort or too real to be believed, set to drowning pools, song Bodies, which I know is one of your favorites. And, you know, it was a very overt attempt at a viral Blair Witch style teaser.

• 13:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Sean Fennessey?

  Jeremy Songe is a director I love. Really one of my guys. And then a website, RunLikeHell.com appears.

• 13:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Sean Fennessey?

  And then a note that, it says, "This fall appears." Now, this movie was previously known, called October.

• 13:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Sean Fennessey?

  It's an 824 movie. And I don't know if it's coming out this fall. There's a countdown clock on RunLikeHell.com.

• 13:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, I did. I did not see the teaser, but I did visit RunLikeHell.com, enjoyed all the creepy footage.

• 13:40Sean Fennessey?

  Give your email?

• 13:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, no, I thought that's, you know that I don't like giving my email. But I do think they also have it, you know?

• 13:45Sean Fennessey?

  They do have it.

• 13:45Amanda Dobbins?

  So they'll, they'll let me know.

• 13:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, if this does come out this fall, this would be the second surprise movie that 824 is putting out this fall, if you can see everything.

• 13:53Amanda Dobbins?

  The second surprise movie in October. I mean, I guess, you know, they've, they have announced, you can see everything a bit earlier. But it seems like it's gonna work for that one.

• 14:02Sean Fennessey?

  This is what I'm writing about this week, is what if, can, should a movie be a surprise? You know, we think of, so much of what we do is like anticipating-

• 14:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, but we also say, wouldn't it be amazing if we just went in without nothing? And we try to as much as we can. And I don't watch the trailers till you make me do it for this very reason, because it is replicating that kind of festival feeling that you and I have of just going in and being like, whoa, for people who are really, really hyped about movies. So I think it's smart, you know?

• 14:33Sean Fennessey?

  You have to pull off the marketing surreptitiously.

• 14:37Amanda Dobbins?

  It's sort of like Beyonce did the surprise album, which was, and Beyonce is Beyonce. And you can do it a few ti, and a few other people, I think, tried it, with varying degrees of success. And, you know, then-

• 14:49Sean Fennessey?

  There's something cool going on with word of mouth about movies right now, that I think you can leverage it in a way that maybe you couldn't five years ago, or 20 years ago. So I'm, I'm fascinated by this choice. I love, conceptually, I'm really interested in it. And I also just know, and the film has, it's like, I think it's James Badgedale and Chase Suie Wonders and, and Imogen Poots and a bunch of actors that I already really like. So like, I'm on board. And what it may be about, which is this very famous haunted attraction in Tennessee that was very dangerous, or at least can be inspired by, if that's the case, that's also intriguing to me.

• 15:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Dangerous for safety reasons, or dangerous because there were people with chainsaws?

• 15:29Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think it went that far. But I think there were a lot of things done without, supposedly without consent to the people who were participating, which I know-

• 15:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Don't tell me that before you try to get me at whatever haunted nights.

• 15:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, Halloween, yeah. Yeah, well, we'll be doing that, for sure. Okay, let's just, let's go to Narnia really quickly, before we get into the, the Tiff conversation. So we were not together when news started coming out about The Chronicles of Narnia, Narnia, Colin, the magician's nephew.

• 15:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Sean Fennessey?

  The plumber's niece. There was a piece in Empire Magazine, kind of announcing some of the details of Greta Gerwig's new film.

• 16:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 16:06Sean Fennessey?

  Hold it together here.

• 16:07Amanda Dobbins?

  There was also, it was a cover reveal.

• 16:09Sean Fennessey?

  A cover reveal, yes.

• 16:10Amanda Dobbins?

  And the cover reveal was Meryl Streep as the lion, whose name, I've been told, I mispronounce. And now they've scared me into never saying it, which was maybe the point.

• 16:20Sean Fennessey?

  Is it not Aslan?

• 16:22Amanda Dobbins?

  That's what I was saying. But the Brits have a whole other thing going on.

• 16:25Sean Fennessey?

  Aslan?

• 16:26Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know.

• 16:26Sean Fennessey?

  Aslan?

• 16:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that's probably it.

• 16:29Sean Fennessey?

  Does any, in the booth, anybody know?

• 16:31Speaker 03

  No idea.

• 16:31Sean Fennessey?

  Aslan? Aslan? That makes, that tracks.

• 16:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, anyone?

• 16:34Sean Fennessey?

  Aslan?

• 16:35Amanda Dobbins?

  We're not British.

• 16:36Sean Fennessey?

  I've read this entire book, and I've said Aslan for three straight nights to my daughter.

• 16:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Maybe we can make that the, the big picture dialect.

• 16:42Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Meryl Streep is indeed portraying this extremely powerful lion, who is a not-so-unclear metaphor for Christ. The movie has been turned, shifted-

• 16:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 16:56Sean Fennessey?

  From turn of the century in London, turn of the 20th century London, to 1950s London.

• 17:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so post-war.

• 17:04Sean Fennessey?

  Post-war.

• 17:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm reading a book set in 1950s London right now, written by Kate Atkinson.

• 17:08Sean Fennessey?

  Is there a magical lion in it?

• 17:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Not yet, but there are many other shenanigans. And they're putting on, not a play or a musical, but a festival. So there is, you know, performance aspects of it. There could be a stuffed lion. Not done yet.

• 17:22Sean Fennessey?

  No magic.

• 17:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Again, I haven't finished the book, but Kate Atkinson is my favorite living novelist.

• 17:29Sean Fennessey?

  Quick sidetrack.

• 17:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Sean Fennessey?

  My daughter went to a birthday party over the weekend. I didn't go with her, but the, the key component of the birthday party was magic show. There was a magician there.

• 17:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 17:40Sean Fennessey?

  A magician who performs at the magic castle.

• 17:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 17:42Sean Fennessey?

  And she came home with a goodie bag that only had magic tricks in it.

• 17:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:46Sean Fennessey?

  It has begun.

• 17:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow.

• 17:48Sean Fennessey?

  She, she shall become a magician. This is a goal. Moving on. Rock opera for Narnia?

• 17:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, sure.

• 17:55Sean Fennessey?

  What is, so- No songs.

• 17:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Rock opera-

• 17:57Sean Fennessey?

  Rock opera vibe.

• 17:59Amanda Dobbins?

  So does that just mean loud music from the-

• 18:01Sean Fennessey?

  No, I think like, outsized, colorful, sort of like, over-the-top performance style. Like, if you, there's a, there was a photo of Emma Mackey, shared, who stars in the movie. And she looks like she's, she almost looks like Ziggy Stardust or something, you know? There's like-

• 18:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 18:16Sean Fennessey?

  Some glitter and makeup and these outrageous colors. She's playing the White Queen in the film. And 1950s London is obviously like, that is where David Bowie came from, you know? That's, the, the music that was happening at that time inspired him to push the music form forward. So that's, it's a choice, right? It is at least a very specific choice that goes away from the, the core text and evolves it in some way. But your, your guard is up on, on the magician's nephew.

• 18:43Amanda Dobbins?

  My guard has been up from the beginning, because it's important to protect your heart, right?

• 18:49Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm, sure.

• 18:49Amanda Dobbins?

  And I love Greta.

• 18:50Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 18:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Greta, who did show up to the premiere of the Lucas Narrative Museum-

• 18:57Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 18:57Amanda Dobbins?

  But was not included in the All Men Directors photo. What's that about?

• 19:02Sean Fennessey?

  That was strange. You know, you know, I was invited to that, and I was like, eh, not a big deal. I don't know what this is. And then I looked at the photos, and I was like, holy shit. Why did I not go to this?

• 19:10Speaker 03

  Tactical error.

• 19:11Sean Fennessey?

  That was, I really, I was, I thought it was like a press invite or something.

• 19:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, yeah.

• 19:15Sean Fennessey?

  And then it turned out all the living filmmakers were there.

• 19:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, yeah.

• 19:18Sean Fennessey?

  Whoops, that was a mistake. I, uh, I keep doing this.

• 19:22Amanda Dobbins?

  So I root for her. She should have been in that photo. And I, you know, we'll see. February 12th in theaters, okay.

• 19:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Wide.

• 19:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 19:32Sean Fennessey?

  Not just IMAX. Cliff Booth is just an IMAX. This is wide.

• 19:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Great.

• 19:36Sean Fennessey?

  Get your, get your thinking cap on. You gonna read the book?

• 19:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think I should? Or now that you've read it, should I go in cold? I've read-

• 19:43Sean Fennessey?

  That's a good thought.

• 19:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I-

• 19:44Sean Fennessey?

  It's a slim text.

• 19:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I've read some C.S. Lewis. I read it growing up.

• 19:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Amanda Dobbins?

  But it's not super fresh in my memory. So, but then do I have to read, you know, the whole thing, the whole series to remember Narnia and to understand?

• 19:58Sean Fennessey?

  First story, right? It's the very first, it's not, didn't come out first, but it is the original, it is an origin story, really, of this whole world.

• 20:05Amanda Dobbins?

  See, again, great, an origin story.

• 20:08Sean Fennessey?

  Well, you'll have to roll with it.

• 20:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I am. I hope everyone's having a great time in London.

• 20:14Sean Fennessey?

  I think they have wrap production, as far as I can tell.

• 20:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. That was the other thing, when they were like, it's delayed because we had to take a six week till all sorts of, you don't know what's going on, but I do hope that London, it seems like a beautiful time to be in London right now.

• 20:27Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, well, let's move from the US to Toronto. Let's bring in Adam Nayman.

• 20:36Sean Fennessey?

  Mean Pod Guy is here. It's September. It must mean it's TIFF time. TIFF just concluded Toronto International Film Festival. Adam, how are you?

• 20:45Speaker 05

  I am okay. I've come out the other end and back to, back to life.

• 20:49Sean Fennessey?

  Back to life, back to life for the People's Choice Award. Many people are saying, one of the most indicative awards in all of festival season, we have winners.

• 20:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 20:58Sean Fennessey?

  I'm going to read the winners. I don't know that the winners historically match closely with Adam's favorite films from the film festival, but let's just put them out front. The winner of the People's Choice Award this year was La Bola Negra. This is the first time a Netflix film has won the PCA. This is the first non-English language film to win since Nadine Lebicki's Where Do We Go Now in 2011. Coming in second place, I Play Rocky, which many people had as the prohibitive favorite. Coming in third place, Sean Hader's Being Human.

• 21:26Amanda Dobbins?

  The opening night.

• 21:27Sean Fennessey?

  The opening night film. No Club Kid, no The Debut. Those are your big three. The international PCA winner, since La Bola Negra won the People's Choice Award, was Elsinore, not Lee Chong Dong's Possible Love. Okay, I've seen both of those movies. I can't say I understand that one at all.

• 21:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 21:46Sean Fennessey?

  Adam Nayman.

• 21:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:49Sean Fennessey?

  I give you those results. You say what?

• 21:52Speaker 05

  Well, I say that it's very interesting that we had a foreign language film win the award, but the international prize a English language film. I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't know how much I believe any of these results, you know? It always seems like, you know, some convenient movies win. I mean, I guess it's on the level. It's two straight years that, you know, the same documentarian has, has, has won an award. I mean, what these awards mean is very hard to say. I think TIFF would really like them to mean something. I think that they're, you know, happy for those, those halcyon days of Three Billboards and Green Book and The Shape of Water, where these things were hugely predictive of the Academy Awards. I don't think that either Bola Negra or Elsinore is likely to win Best Picture, but you know.

• 22:36Sean Fennessey?

  Leave that to me, sir. Please. This is, this is.

• 22:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Can I ask you an important People's Choice Award question, Adam?

• 22:42Speaker 05

  Please, yeah.

• 22:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you, man of the people, vote for the People's Choice Award?

• 22:46Speaker 05

  I do not vote for the People's Choice Award, not because I'm not a person and because it's not my trade. I just, I just, I just plum forget, you know? Every, every time, every time I'm on the way out of the theater, I just remember to do literally anything else.

• 22:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 22:58Sean Fennessey?

  And is that what it is? Is it you get a ballot on the way out?

• 23:01Speaker 05

  It used to be. Now I believe you just text or log in, which is why, which is why movies that I think people are not actually physically at are able to, are, are able to. And, you know, you know, for a festival that takes place in my city and that I attend for a long time, for 10 straight days, I don't pay a lot of attention to how that award works, to be honest.

• 23:21Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Who do you text? Like, like Jim TIFF? Like, what are we talking about here?

• 23:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, Jim, Jim, Jim, what you do is you just text the festival and say, this should win.

• 23:33Sean Fennessey?

  Explain some past winners, then.

• 23:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 05

  And they explain some past winners and they go, and they, they go, they go, okay.

• 23:38Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Uh, well, okay. So what did you like? What really jumped out to you? And, and what observations do you have from this season in Toronto?

• 23:46Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, I think that I started the piece I wrote for, for Ringer by saying this was a year of audiences talking back to the, to the films, sometimes quite oddly and inappropriately. You mentioned Lee Ching Dong's Possible Love, which is a good film based on the audience reaction here. It's like a slapstick comedy. People were like whooping and hollering and cheering. I mean, this isn't like secondhand. I was, I was at, yeah, people were sort of doing like, you know, applause breaks in the middle of that film. It made, made more sense.

• 24:14Sean Fennessey?

  Deeply literate, two hour and 40 minute family drama?

• 24:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, there were also people cheering and clapping during a part of Josephine, which is not me doing a bit. It was very odd. This was a movie I texted Sean before I went in and I'm like, look, I'm quite tired. I've heard this movie is, is grueling and upsetting, you know? Am I going to get something out of this today when I'm tired? He was like, you should probably see it. I'm glad I did. But there were like passages in the film where people were, were, were clapping during that. So it's strange. I don't know if it's a desire to be part of an event, or if it's just a really, you know, enthusiastic cohort of people. Maybe they're trying to, you know, enhance the quality of the movies at this festival by engaging with them. But there was a lot of talk back. There was a lot of clapback. There was, you know, some heckling. Danny Boyle got heckled. I was at that screening too.

• 25:00Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, I read of this, yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 05

  Whereas where someone told him, knock that shit off, basically pertaining to generative AI.

• 25:06Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  And my feeling about that, because I have no thoughts on Ink, the movie whatsoever. I think, I think Boyle needs to go back to The Bone Temple. Those movies are very good. But I also thought that he is such a nice guy. He's so likeable and charming. It's hard to dislike Danny Boyle, that he was actually kind of a good, like, canary in this coal mine. It was like, if people feel comfortable yelling at Danny Boyle on stage in Toronto to knock that shit off, it's probably a sign people are not dying to see these little 30 seconds of conspicuous but pointless AI. I mean, I don't have much to say about Ink. I don't have much to say about Ink, but I will say the AI that is in it is completely pointless. There's, it makes no difference to the film. So why do it?

• 25:47Sean Fennessey?

  We effectively have the same takeaway.

• 25:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Immediately recognizable and also unnecessary. Just, yeah, why?

• 25:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that was sort of one of the things, was that there was a lot of talking to the screen and back at the screen. I think the festival was aiming for a higher participation rate in a different way. As you guys surely read, this was the inauguration of the markets, which, you know, was now, you know, you guys visited Toronto, you have the geography memorized, you know, it's, it's still basically all taking place at the lightbox, but then about a block and a half over in the big Metro Toronto Convention Center, there was a market set up on two floors, which was often kind of cavernous and hollow and empty. But I also wasn't spending peak hours there. It's very nice free, it's some very nice free coffee. I ran into a pair of independent horror filmmakers. I did not get their name, but they were pitching me on their project and I said, sounds

• 26:36Speaker 05

  great. I wished them well. But, but, but I.

• 26:40Amanda Dobbins?

  You should just set up a booth for that, you know, like in the, in the market next year, just on the quarter in Toronto.

• 26:45Sean Fennessey?

  But not do anything, just receive ideas.

• 26:48Amanda Dobbins?

  And say, I wish you well.

• 26:49Speaker 05

  I wish everybody, and everybody wishes me well, largely because of this podcast. People still keep going like, you're tall guys on that, the, the American podcast. People always asking how Sean and Amanda are. That's, that's real, by the way. People are always curious to.

• 27:03Sean Fennessey?

  Cheers to Toronto.

• 27:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Hi, everybody. We're sorry we couldn't be there this year.

• 27:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, they think you guys are very famous. But the market did stretch, yeah. The market did stretch certain things on the ground a little thin. Like, to be honest, I mean, you know, there were only one press screening per film, and that's not like whinging and complaining. I mean, if there's one press screening, you show up on time or you don't.

• 27:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 05

  But it meant that, you know, it meant that lines were longer. I know that there was some slowness sometimes with people who had showed up, delegates, just kind of getting their, their badges. I mean, I bear no ill will to the market. I'm not an industry person. I did host an industry panel and that was well attended. I have friends who are filmmakers and producers and distributors and sales agents, and I think that they had, you know, fun navigating the back rooms of the Metro Toronto Convention Center. But, but the festivals felt spread a little thin. And maybe that's a self fulfilling feeling, like when you've heard all summer, this is going to be the case. Maybe it just kind of feels like that. But it was not the best time I've had at TIFF, which is not meant as a put down of the festival, but just an honest response.

• 28:07Sean Fennessey?

  It does seem logical that Toronto would have a market, considering the way that the markets work at other festivals around the world, but getting something like that off the ground is always challenging. What about the movies? Like, what did you really respond to?

• 28:20Speaker 05

  Well, I think I've said it on this pod before, and it's no less true for saying it over and over, which is, you can have a very good time at TIFF if you pick and guess right. And if you don't, or if you're running a particular beat, or if you're a glutton for punishment, you'll see bad movies. It's just a law of averages. There's like 280 of them, you know? So I, by and large, saw stuff that I thought was pretty good, but that's because I was trying to, for work purposes and for personal purposes. I wasn't, you know, wandering into, I wasn't wandering into random stuff. I avoided the films that I thought I was gonna, you know, dislike intensely. But there's a balance too. You have to see, partially because I'm writing about them for Ringer or for other publications, you know, films like Elsinore, or I Play Rocky, or Ink. I mean, these are things that I would

• 29:02Speaker 05

  probably not choose to prioritize, both also because, not because they're bad necessarily, but because they're going to be readily available and widely distributed. You know, as I wrote in the, the piece I filed for Ringer, the best thing I saw, I would say for me by a mile, was Every Time by Sandra Walner, which is going to be at the New York Film Festival and is some kind of strange, elusive, bizarre movie. I mean, most of the people I spoke to liked it. They liked it without being necessarily sure that they had gotten it. That's not code for it's obscure or incoherent. It's incredibly lucid and brilliantly made. It's just mysterious. And that's kind of a rare thing. A lot of the times, movies like this are mysterious, but they're kind of nudging

• 29:43Speaker 05

  you in the ribs, saying, do you get it? Or, or giving you a very easy way to interpret it. It's a film about a family in Berlin, a mother and two daughters. One is a teenager, one is sort of eight or nine. Something very bad happens involving the older daughter. I mean, it's not a spoiler. Almost any review would say that the older daughter dies in an accident. The film skips what you'd think the movie would be about, which is the immediate grief, kind of picks up after the grief has been subsumed into daily life. And traces of the daughter remain. And I think they're the traces we're used to of people remaining, like her cellphone and her Minecraft world and photos of her and memories of her. And then without spoiling the movie, reality seems

• 30:24Speaker 05

  to mutate around these memories. And at least on two separate occasions, my heart just stopped, in terms of how surprising this film is. A lot of people are comparing it to After Sun because it's the same cinematographer and because there is a kind of vacation at a resort that figures into the plot. I am happy with comparisons to After Sun because I like that movie very much, but it's much different. You know, After Sun is all very lucid and organized and analytical, and this movie is just very mysterious and strange and perverse. You know, I think this is a really great filmmaker. So that's the thing I liked the most by far.

• 31:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing that. We, we both missed that in Cannes.

• 31:05Amanda Dobbins?

  It was, it was on my list. I had a ticket because the resort you mentioned was in Tenerife, which is of course the only, you know, bold name that I read in the entire description. But then things changed, but then it won in certain regard.

• 31:19Sean Fennessey?

  It won in certain regard, yes.

• 31:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, and I think it's going to be Germany's Oscar submission.

• 31:25Sean Fennessey?

  It is, yes.

• 31:26Speaker 05

  And I think that when people see it, they'll, they'll be confused and excited by it as, as, as I was. I think it's amazing and I can't wait to see it again.

• 31:35Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. What else, what else did you enjoy?

• 31:38Speaker 05

  I liked Possible Love, which you guys have or haven't seen.

• 31:41Amanda Dobbins?

  We have seen. Yeah.

• 31:42Speaker 05

  You've both seen. I thought that this was an example where I didn't think he was getting the effect he usually gets. And then by the end, he kind of earned them or engineered them. Maybe I can't tell if it's earning or engineering it. You know, if you've talked about it on the pod already, you know, maybe people have some sense of the plot, but it's very similar to Burning in that it's a kind of class. I think it's much closer to Burning actually than it is to Parasite. People just compare movies to Parasite because it's a subtitled movie people have seen, right? You know, it's like that tweet, it's like that tweet about the Boss Baby, like this movie is giving me Boss Baby vibes, you know? It's not, it's not, it's not really like Parasite. It's more like Burning where there's this disparity between these two families, these two households, these two characters.

• 32:24Speaker 05

  And it's hard to tell if it's aspiration or resentment that's kind of, you know, burbling up between them. But obviously he's dealing in this movie, Li Changdong, a bit with his own practice. He has a character who's a filmmaker, a movie who's making a movie about those class divisions and that inequality. And, um, you know, I, I, I thought it was very, very strong in the second half. I just found myself wondering if the second half was just better than the first, or if that's just how he works. He builds very skillfully and then all of a sudden you're having this kind of stuff seemingly hit out of nowhere. But it wasn't as pressurized and amazing as Burning was all the way through for me the first time I watched both movies.

• 33:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I don't want to spoil our conversation about that movie too much because we'll probably spend a good amount of time on it because I think it's going to be in the orbit for a while. And its relationship to his other movies and even just working with actors that he's worked with before on other movies and using them, like weaponizing them in a way, like what we know about them or what we think about them, especially as a Western audience where like, maybe have not seen some of these actors in very many movies. So to bring someone back and kind of what that means. But, um, I thought it was pretty powerful. I always feel like he, there's a quality to his work that is like, maybe this should have just been a novel. And, you know, he is a novelist and like he, he just writes very literarily for cinema. And there were a couple of moments in Burning where he really transcends that, where I like, he completely snapped my brain in half.

• 33:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:50Sean Fennessey?

  This movie never, didn't quite get there in, in those, in terms of that, like feeling of the cinematic language living up to, I think, a lot of the ideas that he was interested in, but I did, I did like it a lot.

• 34:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I, I felt the same way you did, Adam, where like I did feel at a remove in the, in the first half. And it does feel also that that's intentional and that it is working at a very slow place to get you to the, the second half and really the third act revelations. But some of the choices made in the first half and even some of that commentary on filmmaking, you know, I, like I still, work for me more intellectually than emotionally, which again, maybe is the point is the, and I'm still trying to figure out when people were laughing. Cause that's real. I, I, that's one thing I will tell you, I did not laugh in that film, not even at the Laura Piano joke.

• 34:42Speaker 05

  No, no, there was, there was, there was, there was laughing and Chuck Wigg and there were even a couple of little smattered clap, some spattered clapping. It was very weird.

• 34:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Really, really weird.

• 34:51Speaker 05

  I wouldn't, I wouldn't bring it up if it wasn't weird.

• 34:53Sean Fennessey?

  Well, this is, I think the part of an, maybe an interesting future episode that we can explore about kind of like what the audience's relationship is to movies now. There's all this talk of rep screenings, kind of drawing a lot of inappropriate laughter at times. When you see something from an older film that doesn't feel like it totally fits the contemporary sensibility. And there's something about this too, where, you know, that's a movie really, it's not about class warfare, but it's about the, these sort of like, extremely nuanced differences in people's lives and how someone who feels very far below them class wise is obviously not so far from them in terms of their own humanity. And so like, there's this, this desire to like cheer for something that, that represents like social power,

• 35:34Sean Fennessey?

  which is just corny to me. Like, I just feel like getting, like getting really behind something like that in the middle of the movie just feels odd, but.

• 35:40Speaker 05

  Well, well, that was where the screening of Josephine was so bizarre. This isn't a movie that I want to spoil and it's a movie that in some ways I'd love to have a longer conversation about later. Cause I'm really mixed on how I feel about this film, the best DeRouge film about a married couple, Channing Tatum and Gemma Chan, whose daughter goes through something terrible and then is kind of haunted by it. I found the literal haunting aspect to be a mixed bag for me. But the parts that people were clapping at, believe me, it wasn't the sort of like child haunted by trauma stuff. It's like the, when the movie gets into the courtroom and when they feel like something has been said that is defiant for them, or a kind of truth to power has been spoken, even if it's by a child. And people were kind of clapping and I remember thinking at the time, I mean, the filmmaker's in the building.

• 36:24Speaker 05

  In some ways it's an impressive movie. She's really smart. I'm pulling for her in the movie a little bit like, how does she feel about this? Because this is not a movie with applause breaks tonally built in, you know?

• 36:34Sean Fennessey?

  It's meant to be.

• 36:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Not yet. Yeah.

• 36:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. We shouldn't say too much about the movie because it's, it's, the experience of it is, is kind of critical, um, I think for going into it. But, um, I had the same reaction as you out of Sundance. It absolutely affected me. It absolutely hit me very hard while watching it. And there were also moments where I felt this deep level of manipulation that kind of usually annoys me when I'm watching a movie and I feel like somebody's got their hand on my shoulder. And so, um,

• 37:04Sean Fennessey?

  I generally recommend it and I think people should seek it out too. And you should definitely come back so we can talk about it on the show. Because it's, it is a very fertile ground for discussion of like what a movie should be trying to accomplish. And I, I really admire that she's like, fuck it, I'm going for it in her movies. Her last movie is the same thing. It's not as effective as this movie, but I appreciate that there's someone who is willing to really like break convention to get you to feel something.

• 37:28Speaker 05

  Yeah. And it's interesting because one, maybe not just at this festival, but in general is that language of horror is starting to infiltrate all kinds of other films. And I, I, in some ways I appreciated it because actual horror on the ground at TIFF was kind of hard to find. I didn't see some of the Midnight Madness films. I thought that the Midnight Madness selection didn't look like it had a lot of straight up scary stuff. But that is why I want to speak up a little bit about River, which I think is quite a fun slasher film. I liked it more in retrospect. When I was watching it, I was a little nonplussed, but, but in retrospect and thinking about how well made it is, I'm definitely pro River. Neither of you guys have seen that one yet.

• 38:07Sean Fennessey?

  No, I'm very excited. This was the big acquisition out of the festival, right?

• 38:09Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. Josh, Josh, I don't want to go his name wrong. Josh Giuliano or Josh, Julie Dino's film. Sorry if I got that wrong, Josh. He directed a good movie. Um, yeah, it was bought for, I think, eight million bucks by Blumhouse and Universal. I think IFC had it and then they, they sold it off. I mean, one other big thing at this festival was it was the obsession victory lap of all time, you know? Because I think TIFF feels an ownership of that movie. When there's a certain movie, you know, like Moonlight or Green Book or, or, or obsession, if they can sort of lay any ownership to it, they will remind you of that ad nauseam. So they brought Currie Barker back. They brought Indian Everett.

• 38:46Amanda Dobbins?

  He was getting some fits off.

• 38:47Speaker 05

  Johnson.

• 38:49Sean Fennessey?

  He's coming to some money.

• 38:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 38:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, and talking about that idea of starting their, their, their journey, you know, what a long, strange trip it's been one year later.

• 38:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 38:59Speaker 05

  You know, I don't know if River is going to have the same discourse monster effect because it's not getting its hands in the same kind of can of worms. But I must say Jessica Roth and Jane Levy in the same movie, that's ingenious. They're both great. Like they're great, both of them in this kind of film. I loved watching them act together. The killers are suitably freaky, uh, always good at a Q and A when there is a six, nine professional basketball player on stage. Bring back, bring back absurdly tall slasher movie killers. I think that was, that was good. And, um, it's just very evocatively staged and shot and made. Like I, I wouldn't go too hyperbolic about it. It's not great.

• 39:41Speaker 05

  But it shouldn't be undervalued either. It's a good, it's, it's, it's, for what it is, it's a very good time. And it was the only kind of genre film or horror movie I saw that I liked.

• 39:51Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, interesting. Yeah. I mean, who, who likes a down and dirty gnarly genre movie more than me? I'm, because I'm really, that was, that's the one movie, this entire fall film festival season, I was like, fuck, I wish I saw that. And I, you know,

• 40:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Sean Fennessey?

  Usually I feel that four or five times. And this was the one movie where, and I, I felt this even given that obsession aftermath. I felt that last year when Obsession premiered and I, people that I know who really love this stuff were like, dude, this is the one, you're going to love this. And so there, there is still something fun about that. When you wander into a room and you're like, I heard this could be cool. And then a movie pops up and you're like, well, that was genuinely good. That was genuinely exciting and fun to watch somebody new arrive. And, um, so that's cool. What else? Any, it seems like maybe you were not blown away by the lineup this year.

• 40:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. You want to take any shots on the way out?

• 40:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  On the way out, we just got here. Uh, I mean, uh, I mean, not blown away. I mean, look, some of these are movies I'm going to write about at greater length, you know, for Ringer or elsewhere. I'm sure there'll be cause later on to talk about I Play Rocky, which is an interesting comparison to Elsinore, right? Where really you're sort of just judging these two lead performances. I think Stallone is a more familiar person to impersonate maybe than Ian Charlson, but they're both, I'm sort of trying to say this as fairly as possible. They're both kind of about the craft of acting. And they're sort of both about what actors are kind of pulling out of them, you know, pulling out of themselves. It's interesting that it's the Peter Farrelly movie that is less cut to ribbons directorially than the other one. I mean, Andrew Scott might appreciate giving, might, might be giving a great performance in Elsinore, but it is hard to tell.

• 41:22Speaker 05

  Cause at a certain point, about an hour and a half in, the director just doesn't trust anything. He doesn't trust the script, doesn't trust the audience. He just, I, I, I did not like the way that movie was directed in the home stretch. Andrew Scott's a great actor, but it, you can't, you can't give a great sustained performance when you're cut up like that.

• 41:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 41:40Speaker 05

  And as, and as for I Play Rocky, you know, I happen, I think it's still under NDA, but, uh, you know, I, I, I read a book that's also tied to the making of Rocky. That's not out yet. And watching, uh, the, watching the movie made me think of how funny the book was. But, but, but, but much funnier incidents in reality than the kind of fake ones that the movie puts together. But, you know, good, good line readings by Tracy Letts playing just like the, just, just playing the studio.

• 42:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 05

  You know, like the studio, the studio guy who gets everything wrong. Um, God, what else did I, what else did I even see?

• 42:17Speaker 05

  I saw like 40 movies. It's not great if they're not jumping out of mind.

• 42:21Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm. So you are one of the lone dissenters on Joey Firstman's Club Kid. So I'm curious. I think it's worth, Amanda and I are very in the bag for this movie. We loved it.

• 42:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Super. And honestly, Adam, when I saw your one word review on Letterboxd, I thought, okay, Club Kid, People's Choice Award, here it comes.

• 42:41Speaker 05

  Oh, well, you know what? Just before we talk about Club Kid, another bit of applause was at the press screening of the debut. It was a press screening where I remember before the press screening, reading, people clapped for this movie at Telluride and the Toronto audience did the same thing, but the critics like.

• 42:56Sean Fennessey?

  It was like a telegraph to them. Yeah.

• 42:58Speaker 05

  It was, it was telegraphed. Also not a movie I liked very much.

• 43:03Sean Fennessey?

  It's gonna be a good review for you. It's gonna be a real test.

• 43:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I have no, I have some idea of what's waiting me and we'll see.

• 43:12Speaker 05

  But for, but for Club Kid, I mean, look, it's an interesting discussion about the difference between a movie being effective and a movie being good. Is this movie effective? Very hard to argue that it is not. I was surrounded by people sniffling and crying at the screening. I myself was just sick, but not crying. I just felt, felt, felt like shit while watching it. So there's that. I think it's interesting when a movie is all about the characters flaws and growth and self reckoning when they really kind of do nothing wrong. And the movie constantly reminds you that they haven't really done anything wrong, that the things that happen aren't really their fault, not really their problem. I love movies about 10 year olds who are just perfect and have none of the actual rough

• 43:57Speaker 05

  edges or difficult edges that kids have.

• 43:59Sean Fennessey?

  Extremely unfair in both criticisms, honestly. I really do.

• 44:02Speaker 05

  No, I'm not, because even the things they try and introduce, like the anger issues the kid has, go nowhere. He is sort of absolved by the machinery of the plot, the main character played by the filmmaker, who of course is writing, directing and starring in this kind of very self flattering project, not since Cha Cha Real Smooth, in my opinion, has there been a movie that operates in that way. I feel like it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a showcase movie. It's designed to show this guy as a talented writer, as a talented director, as a talented actor. He is all of those things, but it's in the sacrifice of the real kind of complexity that this movie might be about. I don't really think the complications and

• 44:47Speaker 05

  contradictions of that scene are well developed. I don't think the contradictions of like maybe starting to date your kid's therapist, no matter how hot he is, and he is exceptionally hot, are all that well.

• 44:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Incredible chemistry though.

• 45:01Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know. Sometimes you just gotta do it.

• 45:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 45:05Speaker 05

  No, no, I'm not, I'm not.

• 45:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's like it's Diego Calvo. What do you want?

• 45:09Speaker 05

  No, I'm not, I'm not against that at all. I'm against the fact that it's introduced as a kind of ethical impasse. The movie's like, it doesn't matter. And the kid's anger management issues, and the kid's anger management issues don't really matter. And even, I mean, we don't want to spoil the whole movie, but even the outcome and resolution of the film, it's all kind of easy. And I think that that's a reason I do not include you guys in this. You are my friends and you know, I love you and all that.

• 45:33Amanda Dobbins?

  You forgive us our bad taste all of the time. We're just your sentimental Americans.

• 45:37Speaker 05

  No, I think that the movie is very pleasing and I think people are being pleased. I think people are being pleased by it. I found it to be pretty shallow and kind of self flattering and also a weird view of what it means to kind of like take responsibility in life as if the two lifestyles are incompatible, which I think if you follow that logic a little too far is kind of a weirdly reactionary, conservative underpinning for a movie like this to have, as if what we see in the first half of the movie is something that just a priori has to be escaped before you can take on these other responsibilities, which I don't know is actually true.

• 46:16Sean Fennessey?

  You know, you always, you always have a criticism where like, I'm like, what are you talking about? That's a, that's a real, like, I don't, I don't agree with that at all. I don't, I don't think, I think you can read it that way, but, and we can talk about it more when the movie comes, so that we don't spoil it for people. But to me, it's more about the decisions within the scene, not the scene. This is not a rejection of the scene. It's a rejection of the way that the person lived inside of the scene. And, and that person does do things in the movie. I'm not, it's not my job to defend the movie, but I, this totally worked for me because it's a person who could have been living a little bit differently while doing the work that he does. And because of the actions that he takes early in his life and later in his life, the poor judgment that he displays leads to the outcome of the movie. Now, stuff about the kid, that's, that's a fair note.

• 47:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess so. I don't disagree with you that it is, it is very traditional, both in like, in the, in the structure of the film and also ultimately its views on kids and what, what a happy ending is and what resolution for all of the people are. It's, it is not provocative in that way, though it is provocative in that we still don't know what all of the club drugs are. We, Sean and Amanda, maybe, maybe that's the other thing. Maybe you're just like, I'm not even gonna try to use the lingo.

• 47:29Speaker 05

  My, my, my life is clearly all club drugs, all, all, all the time. No, what I was gonna say is that, I'll make a value neutral observation too, which is that it's interesting to see how quickly the DNA of not just the Safdie's, but Sean Baker now becomes a mood board. And that's not a put down because I like, often I like those filmmakers and it's smart to take some of that stuff.

• 47:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, same producer as Anora.

• 47:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, same producer as Anora, which you can feel in that opening sequence, you can know, you can feel that opening sequence for sure. There's some very good performances in it, kind of around the edges. There's a good performance at the center of it. I mean, like I said, it's a showcase for talent. I just, I just found it to be a little self regarding and a little easy. And I didn't think that what this, you say it's about the characters' decisions. I don't think he made nearly enough kind of bad ones. There's an out with all of them where the movie is sort of like, oh, but he didn't mean it. But that's just bad luck. And it's a little, it's a little annoying to me, for me.

• 48:29Sean Fennessey?

  This, in retrospect, the most predictable thing of all time is Adam not responding to this movie.

• 48:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm interested that it did not place in the top three in the people's, in the, in the People's Choice voting at Toronto, because it really seemed, based on the other reactions, our experience in Cannes, our experience of this film, and then you as a reverse bellwether, Adam, that it would really.

• 48:52Sean Fennessey?

  I think a little bit of it, here, here's my general, I don't know if it's skepticism around how this award operates, but you've got two premieres and you've got one movie that I would say is, is being considered kind of undeniable right now. They played huge at Cannes, they played huge at Telluride, they played huge at Toronto. And so that trio is sort of immovable in a way, and putting another Cannes title there maybe lessens the impact of the award. And so, you know, if Club Kid or the debut were in fourth place, I wouldn't be surprised, but we don't know. Okay. Is there anything else you want to cite that you thought was worthwhile before we wrap?

• 49:32Speaker 05

  Anything else that I want to cite? I mean, I think that the, a lot of the movies that I think people are very excited about this fall are elsewhere. And that would sort of mean less or be less of an observation if there weren't so many other movies at TIFF. I mean, we haven't really had a discussion about it as a showcase of Canadian films because I know that that's not a leading issue. We haven't talked about how good the wavelength section is, which is experimental and avant garde films, because it's always good, because those programmers always bring it, whether it's films that are being brought from Berlin and, and Cannes, like Nico Pareto's wonderful Everything Else Is Noise, or John Torres' The Remotes, which is kind of like vaporwave Filipino Cronenberg is really good movie, you know, like, there are very good movies to see at TIFF. But as an idea

• 50:16Speaker 05

  of what is shaping the fall, I can't speak for you guys, or I can't speak for listeners of this podcast, it's not TIFF's fault, but like, James Gray's movie wasn't here, and Paul Tom Sanderson's movie wasn't here, and, you know, Behemoth, which is playing at the New York Film Festival, which people are very excited by, wasn't here. You know, Primetime wasn't here. So in some ways, talking about TIFF is recapitulating films that, you know, Amanda saw at Venice, or that you guys are all gonna see at the New York Film Festival, but it's with some pretty major ones sort of missing. And I think the feeling, fair or not, is 10 years ago, those things might not have just not been missing. They might have been present here rather than somewhere else. There's a whole bunch of tricky reasons for this, you know, and it's not as simple as saying TIFF didn't get the good films.

• 51:01Speaker 05

  But I know that reading about Primetime, or reading about the Nathan Fielder doc, or reading about some of the other things that were at Venice was a big part of my TIFF. A big part of my last 10 days was reading about movies that I wasn't seeing. And maybe that's my fault, or maybe that's my problem.

• 51:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I think that's true, though. I will be honest, it felt that way in Venice a little bit. And I got, you know, some of the movies that you just listed, and I was also reading about You Can See Everything From Afar. So it does, there's something somewhere else at all the festivals at this point, because so many films are skipping festivals now.

• 51:35Sean Fennessey?

  Well, yeah, I'm, that's what I was just gonna say. I feel like things are, there's something is shifting right now about, and we've been talking about this a little bit over the last couple of years, especially as Cannes has become so powerful in terms of dictating what the sort of arthouse prestige slate will look like for the remainder of the year. And that didn't used to be the case 20 years ago, and now it's very much the case. And then this year, it felt like Cannes was a little bit softer than usual. And yet it has still emerged with three or four titles that feel like they're going to make it all the way to the finish line. So no one's going to be able to get every movie at one single festival. Toronto is one of the few festivals, though, where you, because of the scope and size and the number of films programmed in the past, maybe you had more of an ability to put your arms around the bulk of the season. And maybe that is

• 52:16Sean Fennessey?

  starting to strain out a little bit. So it's interesting that it's changing in that way.

• 52:21Speaker 05

  You know what? Cannes movie not go over well in Toronto, or not really, was Fjord. It's not go over well with me personally, which is another discussion. I don't think it's a very good movie. But it was sort of palpable, but it was sort of palpable how, just looking at the local reviews or tweets.

• 52:36Sean Fennessey?

  It's so predictable.

• 52:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, well, you know.

• 52:38Speaker 05

  Like, like, like, like, that just didn't go.

• 52:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Canadians and Scandinavians, you know?

• 52:44Sean Fennessey?

  We will talk about Fjord momentarily when we rank our best picture contenders. Adam, is there anything you'd like to promote or talk about that you're working on?

• 52:53Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I have a podcast that is going to be coming out at the beginning of next year. It is not with, with, with, with Ringer, but, you know, hopefully I'll still be allowed on, on your podcast. You guys are both certainly welcome on mine. Amanda's already been on it. And that'll, that'll come out next year. Sean, you're slated.

• 53:10Sean Fennessey?

  Do we have a date?

• 53:13Speaker 05

  Are you? No, we have to pick, we have to pick a date. In a way, I don't want to say too much about it also because it's a proper broadcaster podcast and I want to let them promote it. But think the movie They Live and forcing people to watch a movie again, including you. Whatever we talk about, you were going to be forced to, to, to watch again. You have to be on the podcast twice. Each episode is comprised of two appearances by, by, by each of my guests.

• 53:37Sean Fennessey?

  Sort of a rewatchable conceit. Is that what you're saying?

• 53:39Speaker 05

  No, not a rewatchable conceit. And we, and we, and we have, first, first of all, do you guys deliberately rewatch in between discussions of the film on the rewatchables? No.

• 53:50Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 53:51Speaker 05

  Is that podcast an homage to John Carpenter in They Live? No. Am I ever on it in 10 year history? No. So that's a, so that would be a big, a big difference between this and the rewatchables is that I'm on it. But, you know, in, in, in that I'm the host. But you guys are among a list of absolutely fantastic critics, filmmakers, friends, with whom I'm going to discuss some movies.

• 54:19Sean Fennessey?

  Sounds like maybe Jordan Firstman will not be on the show, though. Just checking in on that.

• 54:22Speaker 05

  I make, I mean, I, I, I wonder how many filmmakers, when they hear about this pod, are going to be like, fuck that guy. But I think that there's, but, but there's also going to be a fair number of filmmakers who've already agreed to be on. I just don't want to spoil, I just don't want to spoil who, who they are. But definitely critics and, you know, big, big, big picture pals. It was so nice, you know, seeing you guys in person in Toronto that I wanted to just harangue you on a, on a podcast. Amanda, no, no spoilers. Did you enjoy doing it?

• 54:50Amanda Dobbins?

  I had a great time. It was, it was a lot of fun. And I mean, there, there is some creative direction to it that I personally really enjoyed. So we'll leave it at that.

• 55:00Speaker 05

  See, I can see Sean's skepticism is just melting as he hears this about creative direction. I can just see it.

• 55:06Sean Fennessey?

  I've always been in the bag for Nayman. I think you know that.

• 55:09Speaker 05

  I appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. Thank you for remembering that, you know, Toronto exists. And I look forward to talking about, which movies are we going to argue about? Fjord? Can't wait to talk about Fjord, man.

• 55:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Fjord, Club Kid, Josephine, we don't know yet.

• 55:23Sean Fennessey?

  Lots to come. Lots to come. Thank you guys for having me. Thanks, Adam.

• 55:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Bye, Adam.

• 55:28Speaker 05

  I guess.

• 55:35Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Best Picture power rankings. You feel ready for this?

• 55:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I do. I made a shortish list myself ahead of time. But this is collaborative.

• 55:43Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 55:44Amanda Dobbins?

  I'd like to pose something to you before we start. I think since this is the first one, we should start with one and then work our way down to.

• 55:53Sean Fennessey?

  Number one?

• 55:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, number one. Yeah.

• 55:55Sean Fennessey?

  I'm on board with that.

• 55:56Amanda Dobbins?

  The sure bet. Because, you know, we're building the universe right now.

• 55:58Sean Fennessey?

  I'm down with that. I think, I was hoping to give a, a complete snapshot of where we are right now.

• 56:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so you just want to read this list of films?

• 56:05Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think that would be a mistake?

• 56:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I just, once again, Sean Fantasy reads a list of films.

• 56:13Sean Fennessey?

  I think there's proof that that's something people enjoy.

• 56:17Amanda Dobbins?

  It's true. You can do your movie phone voice.

• 56:20Sean Fennessey?

  Hey, you know, thank you to the people of San Francisco.

• 56:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:23Sean Fennessey?

  For buying those tickets and selling out. Did you see the show sold out?

• 56:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, it sold out?

• 56:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 56:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, good.

• 56:29Sean Fennessey?

  That was pretty cool. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to go to San Francisco. Never done a show there.

• 56:33Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm very excited. I haven't been in some time. I'm going to need everybody to tell me where to buy vintage Levi's and.

• 56:39Sean Fennessey?

  Food. We need restaurants.

• 56:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. But also, Sean, when are we going to dinner? Because you've booked us all night long.

• 56:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't.

• 56:46Amanda Dobbins?

  You always do this. I even stepped in front of you a little bit on this one. And I was like, so let's just be clear about our time commitment.

• 56:52Sean Fennessey?

  I love cinema.

• 56:53Amanda Dobbins?

  I also love cinema. But then, when we're on a work trip, I like going out to dinner.

• 56:58Sean Fennessey?

  Let me go further.

• 56:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 56:59Sean Fennessey?

  I love sharing cinema with others.

• 57:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, that's really beautiful. You are the community.

• 57:04Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you.

• 57:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 57:05Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. There, as far as I can tell right now, and you've given this a look beforehand, right?

• 57:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, yeah.

• 57:13Sean Fennessey?

  I think, I think there are 30 contenders.

• 57:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 57:16Sean Fennessey?

  For Best Picture right now. Now, nearly all of the fall film festivals have concluded. We of course have the New York Film Festival, which is going on right now, but really kicks into high gear next week with a bunch of new films. And then we'll have the AFI Fest. We'll have some of the more regional festivals, you know, your Milbergs, your SCAD, stuff like that. But the biggies are, are off the board now. And one of us has seen 23 of the 30 contenders. There's really only seven movies that are true mysteries to us. And even those seven movies?

• 57:53Amanda Dobbins?

  We have a sense of where, yes.

• 57:57Sean Fennessey?

  And so there's no movie this year, there's no Nosferatu this year, where it's like.

• 58:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, there is, but we know what it is.

• 58:04Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 58:05Amanda Dobbins?

  And we haven't seen it yet.

• 58:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. But even, even then, I feel like I have a lot of pre-release information about the movie that indicates.

• 58:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Does that make you feel special? Yeah. Good. Okay.

• 58:16Sean Fennessey?

  And you know what? We're all special in unique ways. I, I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely fascinated by this season. We're going to do this seven times now, over the next seven months. I promise it will only be once a month, and it'll always be appended to the end of an episode that is about a movie.

• 58:32Amanda Dobbins?

  You're promising me? Or are you promising the people who just like to bitch?

• 58:36Sean Fennessey?

  Everyone who enjoys. The other thing, the other thing I want to announce to you right now, live on the show, is that over the final 21 weeks leading up to the Academy Awards, we will have an individual segment about every single race.

• 58:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 58:47Sean Fennessey?

  We used to do this years ago on the show called The Big Race. And we would only talk about like the acting races. And but every single race, we're going to talk about best sound, we're going to talk about costume design.

• 58:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 58:58Sean Fennessey?

  We're going to really put our heads around it.

• 58:59Amanda Dobbins?

  This is me learning that it's more than 21 weeks until the Oscars, which I know.

• 59:06Sean Fennessey?

  21 episodes.

• 59:07Amanda Dobbins?

  21 episodes. Okay. Because I was like, that's half a year. We're not, we are closer than six months at this point, right?

• 59:12Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 59:13Amanda Dobbins?

  We're not?

• 59:13Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 59:14Amanda Dobbins?

  September, October.

• 59:14Sean Fennessey?

  March 15th.

• 59:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. But now it's September 21st. So we're just under September to October, October, November, December, January, February, March. We're just under six months.

• 59:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, yes. You're right. You're right.

• 59:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. But I, okay. That seems like a good idea. Good job.

• 59:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, thank you. Here are the 30 films. Please sit quietly.

• 59:34Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't want to go back and forth?

• 59:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, sure.

• 59:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 59:40Sean Fennessey?

  I did this alphabetically so as not to tip my hand in any meaningful way.

• 59:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, great. We just, we love to understand how your mind works.

• 59:45Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you. I'll begin, all of a sudden.

• 59:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Artificial.

• 59:47Sean Fennessey?

  Behemoth.

• 59:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Being Human.

• 59:49Sean Fennessey?

  La Bola Negra.

• 59:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Club Kid.

• 59:51Sean Fennessey?

  The Debut.

• 59:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Digger.

• 59:52Sean Fennessey?

  Dune Part Three.

• 59:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Elsinore.

• 59:54Sean Fennessey?

  Fatherland.

• 59:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Fjord.

• 59:56Sean Fennessey?

  The Further Misadventures of Cliff Booth.

• 59:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Inc.

• 59:58Sean Fennessey?

  The Invite.

• 59:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Josephine.

• 1:00:00Sean Fennessey?

  Michael.

• 1:00:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Minotaur.

• 1:00:01Sean Fennessey?

  Obsession.

• 1:00:02Amanda Dobbins?

  The Odyssey.

• 1:00:03Sean Fennessey?

  Paper Tiger.

• 1:00:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Possible Love.

• 1:00:05Sean Fennessey?

  Primetime.

• 1:00:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Project Hail Mary.

• 1:00:07Sean Fennessey?

  Tender Loving Care.

• 1:00:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Sense and Sensibility.

• 1:00:10Sean Fennessey?

  Werewolf.

• 1:00:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Wild Horse 9.

• 1:00:11Sean Fennessey?

  Wildwood.

• 1:00:12Amanda Dobbins?

  You Can See Everything. I think we could host something. I'm just putting it out there.

• 1:00:17Sean Fennessey?

  We are hosting something.

• 1:00:18Amanda Dobbins?

  [laughing]

• 1:00:21Sean Fennessey?

  I, how do you feel?

• 1:00:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I really had some good topspin on some of those, I thought.

• 1:00:27Sean Fennessey?

  You're an amazing broadcaster.

• 1:00:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:00:29Sean Fennessey?

  No one's ever said anything otherwise. We've said many other things about you, but amazing broadcaster, no question.

• 1:00:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so I wanted to start with one because.

• 1:00:36Sean Fennessey?

  There's an obvious one.

• 1:00:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Normally, and listen, in list making, you know, in our editorial lives, you're supposed to start from the bottom and then reveal to number one. That is how you make a good list. But because this is the first one, we're feeling it out.

• 1:00:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 1:00:51Amanda Dobbins?

  We start with number one, which is of course The Odyssey.

• 1:00:53Sean Fennessey?

  I agree with you. The Odyssey is the, is the frontrunner in this race.

• 1:00:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:00:57Sean Fennessey?

  Even after all of these fall film festival releases and the hype that has been accrued by those movies.

• 1:01:05Sean Fennessey?

  My head is kind of spinning now, though, about this. Because-

• 1:01:09Amanda Dobbins?

  You always... Do you think it's because you don't do Pilates or anything? And so you don't have any sort of center of gravity? Like emotionally or physically?

• 1:01:16Sean Fennessey?

  I've always had exceptional balance.

• 1:01:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:01:19Sean Fennessey?

  It's just a fact.

• 1:01:20Amanda Dobbins?

  All right. And yet, you're just, you're back and forth. You're like the, you know, the car wash thing.

• 1:01:26Sean Fennessey?

  No, I mean, I have an active mind. I have an active mind. If there's anything that is unbalanced, it's my mind. And I'm always looking for the unthought moment.

• 1:01:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:01:39Sean Fennessey?

  What aren't they thinking about? How can we surprise them?

• 1:01:42Amanda Dobbins?

  This is how we miss F1. This is how we miss Fjord for the Palme d'Or. This is how we miss Shape of Water for the Oscars.

• 1:01:53Sean Fennessey?

  Many years ago. No, I fucked up many times.

• 1:01:57Sean Fennessey?

  Number two to me is clearly La Bola Negra.

• 1:01:59Amanda Dobbins?

  That's also, I have it written down.

• 1:02:01Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so La Bola Negra, which just won the TIFF Audience Award, the People's Choice Award. Was it Smash out of Cannes? Los Javies won Best Director at Cannes. I talked to many people at Telluride who swooned over the movie. Now, you haven't seen this movie yet, which is so interesting.

• 1:02:17Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm going on Thursday, I'm so excited.

• 1:02:18Sean Fennessey?

  So now it's in an interesting place where you have really had it hyped to see you for five months.

• 1:02:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Sean Fennessey?

  And I'm wondering if the air will ever come out of the balloon? Because if you like it, and other people who still haven't seen it like it, this feels like a legitimate threat to The Odyssey. Now, it's so early, and we've done this a million times. Emilio Perez, once upon a time, seemed like a significant threat.

• 1:02:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:02:43Sean Fennessey?

  In a very similar scenario.

• 1:02:44Amanda Dobbins?

  This movie was acquired by Netflix out of Cannes.

• 1:02:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. A European title out of Cannes by Netflix, coming after a Nolan film. Now, I need to see this movie again now? Because I feel like a lot of time has passed since I've last seen it.

• 1:03:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I will say, you don't often text me coming up of a movie that we haven't seen. We like to save it and/or you just text me a joke. And this was one of the sincere, like, I was blown away by this. So, you know, I either get it, you did that for sentimental value, which didn't ultimately win. And then you did that for Empire of Light, which was one of the worst movies we've ever seen.

• 1:03:21Sean Fennessey?

  That's not true. I did not flip for Empire of Light.

• 1:03:23Amanda Dobbins?

  No, you didn't flip for it. You texted me, like, in the opposite direction. You were like, this is a, like, you know, this is a crime. Like, everyone should be prosecuted for this.

• 1:03:30Sean Fennessey?

  That's, was those the only times I ever texted you after a screening?

• 1:03:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Those are the ones that I can remember.

• 1:03:34Sean Fennessey?

  Wow, okay. That's interesting. How do I keep that trend going?

• 1:03:37Amanda Dobbins?

  And also, like, in a festival.

• 1:03:39Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda, I've just seen Other Mommy. A tremendous work.

• 1:03:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Have you seen Other Mommy yet? You can't go without me.

• 1:03:44Sean Fennessey?

  We'll see it after I get back.

• 1:03:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, yeah, but you can't, you can't do it.

• 1:03:49Sean Fennessey?

  I promise.

• 1:03:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you.

• 1:03:50Sean Fennessey?

  There probably will be an entire episode about Other Mommy.

• 1:03:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, I know. I'm living a whole life about it.

• 1:03:56Sean Fennessey?

  The Other Other Mommy trailer was in front of Resident Evil last night and also played so well. This is now two trailers that worked really well. I'm pretty excited about that movie. So I'm just putting this out here, like, early on to say-

• 1:04:08Amanda Dobbins?

  I have it numbered to, listen, we have a document proof that independently, I agree with you.

• 1:04:12Sean Fennessey?

  The interesting thing about it is, like, of course Netflix has never won. Netflix trying to get over the hump has been a theme of this show, since we've been doing this show. They didn't produce the movie, but they did acquire it, and they're giving it the full push. They're putting it in a lot of cities, they're gonna put it on a lot of screens. They're gonna work hard. This is their, this is their big ticket. And there will be Nolan fatigue. I don't know if there will be enough Nolan fatigue to lead to losing. But Frank Joyce, and a movie as passionate as La Bola Negra, that I think will have as passionate a response as the movie is, is really interesting. I just want to say that at this stage now. Because if I had to put money on it, I think that will be the story of the season. I think it will be The Odyssey versus this movie. And the two, the differences and the similarities between those two films.

• 1:04:57Amanda Dobbins?

  I believe that. I think, again, I made a point of getting it on the calendar even before I won it at TIFF. Because I was like, this is, this is the one, I can tell. Just as soon as Netflix announced that incredibly long run, I was like, oh, this is your awards film. This is what you think your best chance is. And that's a very seasoned and experienced awards team, even though they've never, like, made it to Best Picture.

• 1:05:17Sean Fennessey?

  They haven't won, but they're as smart and as, you know, invested in this as anybody.

• 1:05:21Amanda Dobbins?

  So they know, and that they've identified it, says to me. I'm, you know, I'm also, it's a sweeping historical epic. Penelope Cruz is in it. Sounds great.

• 1:05:30Sean Fennessey?

  And Glenn Close.

• 1:05:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited to see it again, actually. Just quickly, for the purposes of this discussion, the seven movies that we haven't seen. Artificial, Being Human, which we didn't, we were not at TIFF. Dune Part III.

• 1:05:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Correct.

• 1:05:44Sean Fennessey?

  The Further Misadventures of Cliff Booth.

• 1:05:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:05:46Sean Fennessey?

  Sense and Sensibility.

• 1:05:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, a lot of people have seen that.

• 1:05:50Sean Fennessey?

  I'm seeing it next week, if you'd like to join me. Werewolf and Wildwood. Some people have seen Wildwood, some people have seen Sense and Sensibility. I know someone who's seen Dune Part III.

• 1:06:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 1:06:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:06:03Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not sure that any of those movies really feel like they're going in the 10.

• 1:06:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Not even Dune Part III.

• 1:06:09Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, sorry, besides Dune Part III. I should say, I shouldn't have said that. When you think about number three, I'll give you my gut on number three.

• 1:06:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:16Sean Fennessey?

  I think Wild Horse Nine is my-

• 1:06:17Amanda Dobbins?

  It's also what I have written in number three.

• 1:06:19Sean Fennessey?

  No, do you think that's because you and I have gotten too similar over the years?

• 1:06:24Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I think it's because that was sort of pre-identified. I think the festivals kind of confirmed it. And McDonagh has, like, a long track record, at least with nominations.

• 1:06:34Sean Fennessey?

  He does.

• 1:06:36Amanda Dobbins?

  There is a big Malkovich moment happening. And so it does seem that in 10 slots, that just, that fits right in. And that's, is that Searchlight?

• 1:06:48Sean Fennessey?

  That is Searchlight.

• 1:06:48Amanda Dobbins?

  That is Searchlight. And so Searchlight, that'll be Searchlight's movie, yeah.

• 1:06:52Sean Fennessey?

  I agree with you. They do have another movie on the board, Behemoth.

• 1:06:59Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not sure if I see that in the 10 yet.

• 1:07:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Sean Fennessey?

  What do you, what do you think is number four? I'm legitimately stunned. I know at least four movies that I feel confident will be in the top eight. But I don't know what order I think they go in.

• 1:07:12Amanda Dobbins?

  I only filled out, I have seven here, and I put them in an order. So at four, I have Dune Part III written.

• 1:07:20Sean Fennessey?

  Just because you feel like it's just a lock, and we know what it is, and Villeneuve is admired.

• 1:07:26Amanda Dobbins?

  I think pretty close to a lock. He is admired. The other was, part two was nominated.

• 1:07:31Sean Fennessey?

  It was nominated, but it had significantly, I think it had significantly fewer nominations and wins over one. One had a great craft run, where I think everyone, five or six craft awards. And I think Dune Part II had fewer nominations and fewer wins.

• 1:07:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I think that there is some of the Return of the King vibe and appreciation for Villeneuve, at least, you know, below the line, and probably in director, if I had to say.

• 1:07:58Sean Fennessey?

  He didn't get in.

• 1:07:58Amanda Dobbins?

  He didn't get it?

• 1:07:59Sean Fennessey?

  Last time he didn't get in, he didn't get in for one either. And that is something that has eluded him, so-

• 1:08:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I do also think that this, this going up against Doomsday will cleverly present itself as, like, the lesser of the blockbuster evils. And it's either you can be this slop and in the, you know, comic book minds forever, or you can elevate. So it's, the positioning is favorable for it.

• 1:08:27Sean Fennessey?

  And that is effectively going to be the marketing.

• 1:08:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. So I do think it'll happen.

• 1:08:33Sean Fennessey?

  I feel confident about its presence.

• 1:08:35Amanda Dobbins?

  It doesn't have to be four. It doesn't have to be four.

• 1:08:38Sean Fennessey?

  But I understand your thinking completely. I'll give you just other movies that I think will be there. I think The Invite will be there.

• 1:08:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Invite's number five for me. I do as well.

• 1:08:49Sean Fennessey?

  A movie that, they're doing a very interesting thing here, where every three or four weeks, they're screening it for a new group of people. Gilds, various influencing bodies, just to remind people, like, hey, don't forget about this. Don't forget about this. Don't forget about this. It's a smaller movie, did pretty good business, but was not a blockbuster compared to some of these other titles. Was not a big fall festival movie. So I think they're handling that very well.

• 1:09:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I think so. It plays really well. It is also now just making it out, you know, it's available to rent. People who can't go to the theaters are seeing it. I have just a lot of anecdotal of, hey, you know what I saw at The Invite? It's really great, from pretty much everyone in my life. Many, if not all, of the actors will be out on the road either for this Oscar season. Penelope Cruz being one of them. Olivia Wilde is also in Behemoth. Or Seth Rogen has the studio, season two, coming out at some point. So, and so you'll be reminded, oh, I really like all of these people. And I just, I think it's the right mix of provocative, but also relatable.

• 1:09:59Sean Fennessey?

  Accessible.

• 1:10:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, accessible, in a way that I think the drama is too provocative, even though it's, you know, my fave. And then we can talk about Club Kid later.

• 1:10:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, can a 24 navigate-

• 1:10:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly.

• 1:10:13Sean Fennessey?

  Three, maybe even four contenders is a real question. And what is their leading contender? Is The Invite really their leading contender? Or is it Club Kid, or is it the debut?

• 1:10:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:10:22Sean Fennessey?

  The debut, it's one of those weird situations where it feels like, if Julianne Moore doesn't win Best Actress, I'll be really surprised at this point. There are some storytelling choices that are a bit unusual, and at times surreal, in a way that feels a little bit outside what you might be expecting, and what you're hoping to get out of a movie that is otherwise being celebrated in the way that it is. It really worked for me. But I don't know if it's gonna play the same way broadly to, like, the steak eaters of the Academy? You know, the 67-year-old producers who don't have as unusual a taste?

• 1:11:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. Will it play to Europeans?

• 1:11:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Because that's like, I can't tell the other half of it.

• 1:11:08Sean Fennessey?

  I think so. I think so.

• 1:11:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I haven't seen it yet. I was really surprised that it didn't place at Toronto also. It seemed like it had a rapturous reception there, though maybe it was just all of the critic friends I follow who were really thrilled by the like playbill that they made.

• 1:11:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Which, you know, again, great marketing.

• 1:11:25Sean Fennessey?

  They're doing a good job around that. I, um, I don't know. I found it tremendously satisfying and fun. I thought it was a great time at the movies.

• 1:11:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Jesse Eisenberg is liked, though I, in my head, a real pain had been nominated for Best Picture and it was not.

• 1:11:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:37Amanda Dobbins?

  He was nominated for Screenplay and Kieran Culkin won for Supporting Actor.

• 1:11:40Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 1:11:41Amanda Dobbins?

  But, you know, there is some history there in terms of him being embraced by the Academy.

• 1:11:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, it just has a very simple thing, which is that everybody likes Julianne Moore and Giamatti.

• 1:11:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Sean Fennessey?

  Everybody thinks that they're great. If you meet a person who's like, I don't really like Paul Giamatti, that's like, you should be suspicious of that person. You know, they're both just so gifted and doing their thing. But the movie has some unusual storytelling choices that I think people will bump on.

• 1:12:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:12:02Sean Fennessey?

  Coming out of Telluride, I would have put it in my 10. And now I think there's a little bit of a reexamination.

• 1:12:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:10Sean Fennessey?

  Of the big Cannes titles, you know, we heard Adam say Fjord didn't go over well.

• 1:12:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:12:16Sean Fennessey?

  It seems like the reception of Minotaur was sort of like a very polite, like this is quite good, but maybe not rapturous.

• 1:12:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:23Sean Fennessey?

  How are you feeling about those movies?

• 1:12:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, Fjord has The Palm and it has Neon and it has Sebastian Stan and Renata Renzva. And Sebastian Stan is already on the cover of New York Magazine this month. Like it's, I think it has enough that it will get a spot.

• 1:12:39Sean Fennessey?

  I agree with you. You want to put that a little lower on the, on the totem pole?

• 1:12:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:12:43Sean Fennessey?

  Seven?

• 1:12:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Great. Seven's wonderful.

• 1:12:46Sean Fennessey?

  Fjord at seven.

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• 1:14:02Sean Fennessey?

  So then what's going at six and five, based on this discussion so far?

• 1:14:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Where did you put the invite?

• 1:14:07Sean Fennessey?

  I guess the invite, five feels very powerful for a small film. Like in my mind, it's more like eight, because there's, and with some unknowns. And it's going to end up like nine or 10, but it's going to get in. That's kind of my vibe on the movie right now.

• 1:14:21Amanda Dobbins?

  All right.

• 1:14:22Sean Fennessey?

  But some of that is contingent on the debut and Club Kid.

• 1:14:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Why don't you put it at seven then? And Fjord at?

• 1:14:28Sean Fennessey?

  Six?

• 1:14:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Six? Yeah. And I don't know what's at five.

• 1:14:33Sean Fennessey?

  Well, do you still feel the Project Hail Mary is in?

• 1:14:36Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know what to do with it. I don't know what to do. Everyone's gone quiet and Ryan Gosling is Bam Bam and, you know, I just, puppets are back and then they weren't back and up is down.

• 1:14:46Sean Fennessey?

  Ryan Gosling is Starfighter in Star Wars Starfighter.

• 1:14:50Amanda Dobbins?

  And then he's, he's not Doom. Who is he in the?

• 1:14:53Sean Fennessey?

  Doom? No, he's Ghost Rider.

• 1:14:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you. And?

• 1:14:56Sean Fennessey?

  Starfighter and Ghost Rider.

• 1:14:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. And Bam Bam. Okay. Whatever you want to do in your life, I guess. I feel like it's gone quiet, but that is also the playbook for something that comes out in March and will reheat. I do as well. But that is three huge movies in The Odyssey, Dune and Project Hail Mary. So.

• 1:15:22Sean Fennessey?

  You're right. And that's very unusual.

• 1:15:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:15:24Sean Fennessey?

  I still think it's going to hang in there. It's Amazon's movie. It's their one big movie. It's a movie they're going to push really hard. I'm going to say let's put it at five just because we know what we have with it.

• 1:15:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. I'm in peace with that.

• 1:15:38Sean Fennessey?

  In the same vein of Dune Part Three, where it's like, well, we know that this is a movie that is a proven commodity in the Oscar race. We know that Project Hail Mary was a big success that people liked.

• 1:15:47Amanda Dobbins?

  So this is cute. These are the seven for shurs that I had written down in almost exactly this order.

• 1:15:53Sean Fennessey?

  Now, we've seen six of these seven movies and we've seen the two previous films in the Dune series. So that's, that's part of it, right? That's like, we're working with knowledge that we have, not knowledge we're missing. Now we get into a place where you have to take some chances in this discussion. Can a movie like All of a Sudden, or on the, all the way on the other side of the spectrum, a movie like Michael?

• 1:16:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16Sean Fennessey?

  Get into a Best Picture race in 2026?

• 1:16:18Amanda Dobbins?

  So I'd like to read you, here's the rest of my list.

• 1:16:20Sean Fennessey?

  Please.

• 1:16:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Michael, question mark, Fatherland, question mark, Club Kid, question mark, I Play Rocky, question mark, All of a Sudden, question mark? And then the debut was up there also.

• 1:16:33Sean Fennessey?

  I didn't include I Play Rocky in my long list. It's 31 movies.

• 1:16:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, oh dear.

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  And no Obsession for you, Amanda?

• 1:16:39Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think it's going to happen in Best Picture anymore. I think it's going to be in Indy Navarrete and also ran to Julianne Moore.

• 1:16:48Sean Fennessey?

  That would be a repeat effectively of Weapons.

• 1:16:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. Yeah. It, could it happen? I don't know if it could happen in screenplay or in, in something.

• 1:16:57Sean Fennessey?

  It could.

• 1:16:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Sean Fennessey?

  It could.

• 1:16:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I think that's more likely than Best Picture breakthrough.

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  Indy Navarrete versus Julianne Moore would be a very interesting comparison to the Mikey Madison versus Demi Moore campaign.

• 1:17:09Sean Fennessey?

  Is Indy Navarrete lead?

• 1:17:11Speaker 03

  Yes, I think so. I think so. Even though maybe she's not, I think they would run her in that.

• 1:17:17Sean Fennessey?

  We don't have to get into that fight already, but I'm not totally sure. That's right. If I were them, I would not run her against Julianne Moore.

• 1:17:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, maybe they'll get away with not doing it, even though it is a two-hander. But.

• 1:17:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Obsession in Variety's predictions is not, I'm not seeing it here for original screenplay.

• 1:17:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:17:42Sean Fennessey?

  That's pretty weird. How can that be? Anyhow, um, okay. So of those movies that you listed with your question marks?

• 1:17:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:17:52Sean Fennessey?

  What are you most confident in?

• 1:17:54Amanda Dobbins?

  What am I most confident in? Hmm. I, I still sort of think the, the debut seems like it's going to happen. I feel like the Jesse Eisenberg plus the Julianne Moore of it all. I haven't seen it. There's a warmth for it at Telluride. Could be wrong. I just argued against that same reasoning for Obsession. So, you know, there's no consistency in my logic here.

• 1:18:24Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not, I'm not against it. And like I said, I think that there is, coming out of Telluride, I would have said, no question.

• 1:18:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Sean Fennessey?

  It's going in. In the aftermath, I've heard from people who know stuff who are like, yeah, maybe this didn't totally work.

• 1:18:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:18:40Sean Fennessey?

  I'll put it on there because we know, I know what it is. And I, I know.

• 1:18:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you want to do Club Kid?

• 1:18:45Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think it's going to go.

• 1:18:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think it is either, which I think is devastating. But that's okay. We'll have a great time with it.

• 1:18:51Sean Fennessey?

  I think there's just too much on A24's plate, if I'm being totally honest with you. Um, now we say, can something more unusual happen? Can a You Can See Everything become the first documentary to ever be nominated for Best, Best Picture?

• 1:19:06Amanda Dobbins?

  It'd be fun.

• 1:19:06Sean Fennessey?

  Can?

• 1:19:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I wouldn't know because I haven't seen it yet.

• 1:19:10Sean Fennessey?

  Can Obsession get in as a gnarly horror movie?

• 1:19:15Amanda Dobbins?

  But I don't.

• 1:19:17Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's the same thing as F1, in that it is like a highly commercial movie that is quote unquote, original. I think actually F1 and Obsession are original in the exact same way, in that there are lots of forbears and there's a lot to kind of go on. But they did make up this whole story and all these characters and it came from nothing. And the, the business likes that. They want to reward that.

• 1:19:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:41Sean Fennessey?

  You know, something that can be commercially viable, but feels new.

• 1:19:45Amanda Dobbins?

  And you think they picked that over Michael?

• 1:19:48Sean Fennessey?

  God, I hope so.

• 1:19:49Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I hope so too. That is, that's.

• 1:19:51Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, Michael's the exact opposite of that.

• 1:19:52Amanda Dobbins?

  It's true. And it's a good argument for Obsession. Okay. I'm, I'm game to put it in.

• 1:19:58Sean Fennessey?

  Let's put Obsession at 10.

• 1:19:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Great.

• 1:20:00Sean Fennessey?

  I'm, I'm not at all convinced that that's where it's going to land.

• 1:20:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:20:04Sean Fennessey?

  But for now, knowing what we know, I think it's a little bit easier to see something like that happening rather than Minotaur or Digger or, you know?

• 1:20:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. I, I have seen Digger.

• 1:20:17Sean Fennessey?

  And you, it's not near your top 10.

• 1:20:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I, you know, the Academy historically really does like Inari Two and likes Inari Two more than anyone on this podcast right now and, and responds to it. It is very Inari Two. So, you know.

• 1:20:33Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe it could go in.

• 1:20:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. I, it's not hugely commercial, is what I would say.

• 1:20:38Sean Fennessey?

  A lot of people pushed it out, a lot of the pundits after the screening on Saturday. So you were there.

• 1:20:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I was there. Um, I, I never had it in, you know?

• 1:20:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:47Amanda Dobbins?

  But I don't, what I saw did not lead me to think that it's going to make top 10. Could be wrong, but Obsession seemed, but, but here's the thing I'll say in response to this. And this is, you know, Amanda's late September annual, but what about the international voters? And I always overcorrect. And I think we, but we start with too many Hollywood titles. I'm always like, let's, you know, put six or seven, but we're pretty much only doing.

• 1:21:15Sean Fennessey?

  We've got Fjord and La Bola Negra as our two international entrance so far.

• 1:21:20Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true.

• 1:21:21Sean Fennessey?

  So what's the third? What's the third? Is the third All of a Sudden? Hamaguchi was nominated for Best Picture for Drive My Car.

• 1:21:28Amanda Dobbins?

  It's true.

• 1:21:28Sean Fennessey?

  This movie is going to be one of the best reviewed movies of the year, no question about it.

• 1:21:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:21:32Sean Fennessey?

  It is going to be a critical darling. It's going to get, I think, a lot of consideration for both actresses, for Taoko Miyamoto and Virginie Yaffira. And I think there's a, there's a Virginie Yaffira Best Actress campaign that I think could work.

• 1:21:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:21:49Sean Fennessey?

  She's phenomenal in the movie. It is a challenging movie for the steak eaters. It's a three and a half hour, durational, personal drama about elder care. So.

• 1:22:01Amanda Dobbins?

  And capitalism and, and the beauty.

• 1:22:03Sean Fennessey?

  A great many themes.

• 1:22:04Amanda Dobbins?

  The beauty of life.

• 1:22:04Sean Fennessey?

  Life and death, everything.

• 1:22:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, we could put, I, you know, the, the counter to that is that the Academy loves Pavlov, Pavlovsky. That's a known quantity. That movie is 72 minutes long and also stars Sandra Huler. So.

• 1:22:20Sean Fennessey?

  I know. I don't, I don't feel like.

• 1:22:21Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't, I don't think that it will either.

• 1:22:23Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think, I, I liked the movie. I don't, it doesn't feel the same as Cold War, which Cold War, I think.

• 1:22:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree, agree.

• 1:22:29Sean Fennessey?

  I think they felt like they had a discovery and him getting into director that year was so exciting. It felt like the seventies Oscars.

• 1:22:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:37Sean Fennessey?

  But it doesn't feel there's the same level of acclaim. And I think most of the acclaim will be around her in that triumvirate of performances that she has with, I guess, a quartet, right? Cause she's in Digger as well. So.

• 1:22:49Amanda Dobbins?

  That's right.

• 1:22:49Sean Fennessey?

  So she's in Digger, she's in Rose, she's in Fatherland and she's in Project Hail Mary.

• 1:22:53Amanda Dobbins?

  And she sings in Project Hail Mary.

• 1:22:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. Um, which is like a nice callback to Tony Erdman. She, she's gonna get recognized somehow.

• 1:23:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:04Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think Fatherland's gonna get in.

• 1:23:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:23:06Sean Fennessey?

  Just like, I don't think Ink's gonna get in, just like, I don't think Josephine's gonna get in, just like, I don't think. I'm, I'm waiting with bated breath to see the response to Behemoth.

• 1:23:14Amanda Dobbins?

  And I am waiting with bated breath to see Behemoth.

• 1:23:17Sean Fennessey?

  I'll tell you this right now. I really don't know.

• 1:23:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:23:20Sean Fennessey?

  And I feel comfortable saying, I don't know. No, I don't, I don't mean that in pejorative. Like, I literally don't know whether or not people will respond to the movie. Um, what else?

• 1:23:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Paper Tiger?

• 1:23:33Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, I hope so. I.

• 1:23:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I, yeah. Well, it is, it's opening the New York Film Festival, so people are gonna be back in the mix of it.

• 1:23:39Sean Fennessey?

  It's gonna get very well reviewed, as all of James Gray's films are. Um, it's, I think it's actually smart to play it there and to not run it through the festival machine the way that Adam was hoping he was gonna be able to see it there. But whether or not it has the power to overcome some of these other movies in this particular context.

• 1:23:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:23:57Sean Fennessey?

  Gray has just never succeeded in this particular space. Um, he's a New York filmmaker and.

• 1:24:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:24:02Sean Fennessey?

  You know, it's a Scorsese thing. Scorsese for years was up against Hollywood and they were just like, eh, you're too New York. And this movie is the most New York movie he's made in some time. Wha, what's, what's, I mean, what's the last, what's, what's a wild swing we can take? I don't think, Primetime feels too transgressive to me. We'll talk about it on Friday on the show. I really liked it, but it does not feel like an Oscar movie. Um, is tender loving care possible? This is in Mike Lee's new film.

• 1:24:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I want it to be, but you know, I feel like.

• 1:24:30Sean Fennessey?

  You wanna, you wanna hope dict this movie right now?

• 1:24:34Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I think we should probably do All of a Sudden.

• 1:24:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. I'm fine with that. Let's do All of a Sudden.

• 1:24:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Based on precedent.

• 1:24:40Sean Fennessey?

  This will change a lot.

• 1:24:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Sean Fennessey?

  And yet this doesn't seem so crazy to me, what we have here. Do you wanna read this 10? Since I've already read so many movie titles today.

• 1:24:49Amanda Dobbins?

  We traded. Sure. At 10, Obsession, nine, All of a Sudden, eight, The Debut, seven, The Invite, six, Fjord, five, Project Hail Mary, four, Dune Part Three, three, Wild Horse, nine, two, La Bola Negra, and one, The Odyssey. When you make a quote card about this, you will note, Jack Sanders, that this is not a review of the quality of these films or our personal preferences. I don't know why I'm still doing the movie voice.

• 1:25:18Speaker 03

  I'm gonna write that down verbatim. Can I just say something very briefly? I feel like the narrative most of this year has been like, oh, 2026, like, kinda good. Like, I'm looking at the, this 31 list, this list of 31 films. I'm like, this is a really good year. Like, I think this is a really good year.

• 1:25:34Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. I mean, and, and like, have you seen Club Kid yet?

• 1:25:37Speaker 03

  I haven't. That, I'm also, I'm using the ones that I have seen that I love and then also some of the ones that you guys have seen that you've spoken lowly about.

• 1:25:43Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's not a ceiling scraping year is the thing. To me, I'll, I'll just give you my own stupid metric. No five star movies so far for, for me this year.

• 1:25:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm. Yeah, I think that's probably true for me as well.

• 1:25:54Sean Fennessey?

  That's just, you know, it's my silly little system, but it's, it's unusual for there to not be one for me. As somebody who wants to, I go into every movie wanting to love it. And there's been stuff that's gotten close, that I really liked a lot.

• 1:26:11Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not sure if anything will top my glee during Nirvana, The Band, The Show, The Movie, the first time I saw it, but I saw that last year. So that's the other thing is, that was screened for me, I think in November of 2025, which is a long time ago now. Um, all right. I feel like we did good work here.

• 1:26:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:26:26Sean Fennessey?

  Do you wanna quickly share some feelings about the film Resident Evil, which you've now seen?

• 1:26:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I have now seen. So this, I will spoil it, I guess, sort of.

• 1:26:33Sean Fennessey?

  Well, if you don't want the movie spoiled for you, you shouldn't listen, nor should you probably listen to the Zach Craig or conversation, or at least not much of that.

• 1:26:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:40Sean Fennessey?

  But, but.

• 1:26:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I just, I really don't wanna hear from people who care about the spoilers of Resident Evil enough to be mad at me, but also didn't care enough to go see it opening weekend, as much of America did.

• 1:26:52Sean Fennessey?

  What if those people were, um, on the front lines of saving lives as doctors, physicians assistants, nurses, surgeons?

• 1:26:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Then I thank them and commend them. And I also hope that they have the responsibility to not listen to this.

• 1:27:08Sean Fennessey?

  Right. Press pause.

• 1:27:09Amanda Dobbins?

  In the same way that they take on the responsibility of saving other people's lives every day.

• 1:27:13Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 1:27:14Amanda Dobbins?

  You know?

• 1:27:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, absolutely. You should be in charge of everything.

• 1:27:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you for finally saying it. Um, I really liked this. It's, you know, we, um, spent the whole weekend, uh, together and we're talking with another friend who had seen Obsession and that was like, okay, and so now I'm gonna do Resident Evil, cause that's the next thing.

• 1:27:33Sean Fennessey?

  I referenced our friend to, to Zach.

• 1:27:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. And I said, okay, so that's gonna be a little different for you, right? And this feels less like, um, a great example of a movie breaking genre containment, uh, and more like, just a really sick movie for the sickos.

• 1:27:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:27:53Amanda Dobbins?

  And I got it. There is, like, it's obviously a very funny movie, but there's a real huspa to it that I could pick up on, even though by the end, like with, you know, like, the wart tentacles, I was like, I'm good. You know, like, I have other things that I could be doing right now. And like, warts in particular, eh. Um, but Austin Abrams is amazing. I think like, the first, what is it, 30 minutes really, until you get the Resident Evil title, when he's, you know, in the woods and then they go to the farmhouse, is just absolutely electric. And that does also include the now, you know, memed by Chris and you, uh, shooting a little girl in the face. Uh.

• 1:28:32Sean Fennessey?

  Very enjoyable stuff.

• 1:28:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that was really good. And I think that was one of the only times that I was like freaked out. That's the other thing is that I didn't find it. I found it really, really gross, but not particularly scary. And, and, but I, I paid that, that's, that's a compliment for me because I wasn't like, I wasn't having a bad time. I was just kind of like, oh, okay, so what you're going for here is to be as gnarly as possible and also just to be on the right. It's very lean. I, I don't know anything about the video game, as previously discussed. I'm sure there were Easter eggs. In fact, I met a listener at the screening who said there were some, but they, it, you know, other than video games, it didn't really, none of the Easter eggs really left out at me.

• 1:29:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, there are a couple of things that, where he's spending two seconds longer on a moment.

• 1:29:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Sean Fennessey?

  To give you that sensation, but it is not the like, hey, here's this character who he's, who he always loved, you know?

• 1:29:27Amanda Dobbins?

  But I didn't, I, you know, I didn't really worry about that. I will say, I thought everything was really gnarly and every once in a while, you could see the computer animation of the gnarliness. And that just doesn't work for me, as well as that's just, that is an aesthetic.

• 1:29:41Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's interesting. I didn't actually talk to Zach about this. Maybe I should have, but I watched his video that he made for Vanity Fair about the, um, the bodies on, off the roofs sequence, which I think is amazing.

• 1:29:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is amazing, but you can tell that those are the crab, those are my crab people.

• 1:29:56Sean Fennessey?

  Though, right, the people are not real, but the bodies that are falling, that was done practically. So.

• 1:30:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:30:02Sean Fennessey?

  But the cityscape is not real. So the buildings beside him, which looked so real to me in the film.

• 1:30:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Sean Fennessey?

  Were CGI. And the buildings in the background and the view, in Abrams' character's view, were CGI. And the bodies that were falling.

• 1:30:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Were real bodies.

• 1:30:16Sean Fennessey?

  Were like real blood bags, like real, you know, practically done and quite dangerous for Abrams as he was running through the city, the streets. And I thought it was kind of, and I really regret not asking him about this, but I thought it was a fascinating fusion of the false and the real. And like, the way that it can be used positively.

• 1:30:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:35Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and the execution of a scene. Now, the third act, which is a little bit more controversial, features a lot of CGI.

• 1:30:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:30:40Sean Fennessey?

  And, and there's, there are some reasons for that, obviously, but, um, and I've seen some people be really down on the third act. I, Chris and I had a really fun time with it, I think, cause of like, the mic drop quality of it, where it was just like, movie's over, fuck you.

• 1:30:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, I thought that was funny. I mean, also Griffin Newman shows up in the third act. And I was like, I, like many people, did the Leo pointing at the screen. I was like, hey, that's Griffin Newman. You know, and I was like alone, 2:00 PM on a Thursday, looking around like, hey, that's my guy. That's my friend.

• 1:31:06Sean Fennessey?

  Wonderful.

• 1:31:06Amanda Dobbins?

  So that was great. I had.

• 1:31:07Sean Fennessey?

  I know. I knew that. It sucked. I didn't tell you that.

• 1:31:09Amanda Dobbins?

  No, you didn't tell me that. But it, but that's, that's better because then I was like, wait a second. Uh.

• 1:31:14Sean Fennessey?

  I was with Griffin and David last fall and we were sitting together and we'd been together for like three hours in a bar. And then Griffin just started telling me, I don't even know how we led to it, maybe because they had just recorded a pod with Craig or. And then as soon as he told me, I was like, fuck, I wish I didn't know that.

• 1:31:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:27Sean Fennessey?

  I would have loved to have had that experience of seeing him on screen.

• 1:31:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I will also say, and I, this is around the third act, but the image of, so when they go to the nursery in the, the maternity ward in the hospital, I was like, don't you fucking flash this, Zach Craig or, I'm gonna be so mad at you. And then the image of the baby hands coming up over the plastic box is the funniest thing I've ever seen.

• 1:31:52Sean Fennessey?

  So good.

• 1:31:52Amanda Dobbins?

  It's so good. And it was the exact opposite of the flash. Like, I got the, the sense of the humor. It was really.

• 1:31:58Sean Fennessey?

  Worrying about saving the babies.

• 1:31:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was, it was great. So, uh, I was very pro. And I, and it was more like, okay, now I understand Sean and Chris better than I found my movie.

• 1:32:10Sean Fennessey?

  Totally. It's riffing on things that we love.

• 1:32:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. But it was not at all alienating to me in the way that both some horror movies, but certainly most video game movies could be.

• 1:32:21Sean Fennessey?

  Zach said it. He's like, I'm not into torture porn. That's not, I don't wanna watch that kinda thing. This was a much more like irreverent, fun, funny, roller coaster style approach to that kind of story. Um, okay, great. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

• 1:32:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, let's go now to my conversation with Zach Craig.

• 1:32:39Sean Fennessey?

  Zach Craig is here, back, three for three. How are you doing?

• 1:32:42Speaker 03

  I'm good. Thanks for having me.

• 1:32:43Sean Fennessey?

  Are you excited about the release of your film?

• 1:32:45Speaker 03

  I, I'm excited to have it out there. Yeah.

• 1:32:47Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. So the first thing I wanted to ask you was, I know that you went directly from Weapons.

• 1:32:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32:54Sean Fennessey?

  Into this movie. And I think you might've told me that when we talked for Weapons, and that sounded really stressful.

• 1:33:00Speaker 03

  It was hard. And when, when we spoke last, I was in Prague in prep, like, deep in it.

• 1:33:04Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 1:33:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:05Sean Fennessey?

  So was that a good choice?

• 1:33:07Speaker 03

  Uh, good, bad, I have no idea. It's what happened.

• 1:33:12Sean Fennessey?

  It feels fine. I feel like I I was able to maybe harness momentum, you know? And I feel like Austin and I were in a good, good kind of flow state for Weapons. And we were able to just pick up where we left off with this and that. That was great. Um, yeah, I think it was the right choice. Now I'm I'm like a corpse, you know? It was because also this movie, we finished the movie like a week and a half ago, you know? Maybe like, uh, maybe I'm being a little like, maybe it was two weeks ago, but it was like, uh, you know, it was pencils down at 11:59 Saturday night because the DCP had to ship. And and there's actually the international version is different than the domestic version because I was still needing to make changes.

• 1:33:53Sean Fennessey?

  And like, we we missed our our international finish line time, you know? So there's there are shots I'm not stoked on in the international version that like are better in the in the domestic. That's how down to the to the wire it was. Yeah, I mean, I And then straight from that into the into the, you know, uh, press stuff. So I was I was thinking about celebrating the idea of like, two movies in two years from a from a filmmaker I like, which never happens anymore. And it did used to happen with some frequency in the 50s, 60s, 70s. And now it does feel like this is more of a rare thing to celebrate. Like, what do you attribute that to? Well, it's even crazier that they used to do that in the 70s because the edit process was so much different, you know? And now, like, I talked about this with my editor.

• 1:34:36Sean Fennessey?

  I'm like, I can't even imagine the post process if I we were doing physical cutting and real to real and like trying things, add two frames off. Okay, that give it give me 10 minutes or how I have no idea how long it took. But it's like, so so that's, I think, part of the reason movies took so much longer back then. Um, it's wild. Anyway, sorry, what was your question? Well, it wasn't even a question. It was like an observation. And I was wondering if you took anything, whether it's specifically strategically about how to make a movie, or even just like your your mind state coming out of Weapons, going into a movie like this, because they're similar, but they're also very different. They're very different. Okay, so part of it is like the way that, right after Barbarian,

• 1:35:16Sean Fennessey?

  I wrote Weapons, Resident Evil, and Flood very close together. Right. That's your next movie. Flood is my next movie. And so Weapons was the one I was trying to get going first because I wrote it first. And then when that stalled because of like weird casting things and all this, then I was gonna jump right into Flood. So I was gonna shoot Flood before I did Weapons. And um, and then the way things worked out, I was kind of pushing both movies forward. It's like, which one is gonna go? I'll jump on either one that goes. It ended up being Weapons that went. And then I was gonna do Flood, but it turned out that Resident Evil, um, there's a right thing. And it was like, if I don't shoot it next, I'll probably never get to make it.

• 1:35:56Sean Fennessey?

  And I was thinking like, do I shoot Flood and roll the dice that I'll never make Resident Evil? Or do I make Resident Evil and roll the dice that hopefully on the other side I'll still be able to make Flood? It was a super stressful thing. All of this is during the the edit of Weapons, when I had to make these these things. And also, it was like Flood and Resident Evil were written simultaneously. And so Flood is a very cerebral, it's more sophisticated. It feels more like Weapons. It's much more like, um, something that I feel like Flood, you like, maybe put on my tombstone, you know? And Resident Evil was this like little like playtime to just break up the the strain of writing Flood was like Resident Evil was like, you know, easy, dude. It was to write. It was just like dumb fun where I wrote it with my buddy.

• 1:36:40Sean Fennessey?

  And we were just like, oh, oh, oh, and then, uh, uh, uh, and like, really not not agonizing over anything, you know? I wrote it in 15 hours probably and just were like, this feels fun. I'd like to see this movie. It's a rock'em, sock'em thing. I think that's what That's what you said, yeah. And um, and Flood, then I would go back and like agonize by myself and and and, you know, work incredibly hard. Um, and so, so that's partly, I don't know where I'm going with this. But to me, Resident Evil was always supposed to be just this like fun spa day, whereas Weapons and and Flood were were like, you know, really different. It ended up being the hardest movie I've ever I've ever I've only made three movies, but it was so much harder than I had guessed.

• 1:37:24Sean Fennessey?

  I thought it would be like, turn my brain off and have a blast and I can shoot these sequences. You know, this is one thing I feel confident about is like, I know where to put the camera to like craft a horror suspense thing. So that's all I'm gonna do. And what a what a great time. And it ended up being Why was it so hard? Just because What was the the number one thing you did not anticipate? I didn't anticipate being sick the whole time. Oh, yeah, that's bad. Yeah, I had pneumonia for the first half and then I had a like a bacterial infection for the back half. And it was very intense. And I was I was never, I never had 50% of my body, you know? And so that was really hard. So you take that and then you put that in being nocturnal for however many months

• 1:38:06Sean Fennessey?

  in the north of the Czech Republic, in the snow, in the freezing cold, not seeing the sun ever. Even even we were shooting on stage, we were nocturnal because the schedule kind of demanded it, you know? So it's like, talk about a morale killer, like make your crew shoot indoors nights for weeks at a time and people just start to lose it, you know? And so that that was like, that that was so hard. Okay. That was really Why did you do that? Why did you shoot it in the snow? Why did you shoot it at night? When I'm writing it, I'm like, this would be cool in the snow. And like, you know, he lies about not having chains and that's why he slides in the snow. And it's his lie that made him, that's the first domino.

• 1:38:48Sean Fennessey?

  And, you know, I was, there's lots of themes in this, but one of the themes is is cutting corners. And he is guilty of that. And that's why he's in this situation. And so I, by the, you know, I didn't interrogate these decisions when I'm writing. I just write. And then and then, you know, I didn't appreciate it when I was in, uh, you know, selling the movie. And then and then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, we're gonna make it. And you are the dog that caught the mail truck. And you're just like, oh, no, I have to go figure all this stuff out. It's so funny, though, like, the movie has no sweat on it. Like, it doesn't feel like a movie, I'm not just saying this to gas you, like, it doesn't feel like a movie that was hard to make.

• 1:39:32Sean Fennessey?

  Like, it's it's a ride and you get really involved in it, right? And it does feel like you executed what you'd conceived. Great. And even like, I I repeated what you said to me on the show last year because I was like, this is pretty much exactly what he promised. And you delivered on the thing that he promised. And so like, I'm curious about how it feels like when something, did anything go wrong? Like, when something goes wrong, what do you do? Even if you don't have like the the mental energy because you don't feel well to push through on a day? Well, partly is I just have such an incredible support system. You know, a movie is like, not just the director, it's like, it's a whole team. And so I could be, you know, I could I could be deathly ill and and I still have, I still have my department heads and I have my producer, Mary, and I have I have all these people,

• 1:40:16Sean Fennessey?

  you know, that that are gonna prop me up and and and help me get over the finish line. I also am a hyper prepper, you know? I am about, I I don't know if there's anyone who is more more, I spend so much energy on the prep. I mean, I make the movie in prep, you know? And so But what it what goes into that? Does that mean storyboarding? That means storyboarding. This movie, so I had to, because so much of this is like, I hadn't gone to to practice scout and we hadn't built anything. So I couldn't photo board, which is what I usually do. So I storyboarded every single frame of the movie, every frame, uh, months in advance, in LA, here, you know, just did that. That way, um, we are building the sets to my boards, you know?

• 1:40:59Sean Fennessey?

  I am scouting to the boards. I'm still, you know, looking for improvements. But we shot, I'd say 97% of the movie is boarded exactly as it is. There are a few shots I found in the moment where I was like, let's do this. Let's get this if we have time. But but generally, that was the blueprint. So does that mean that the script is etched in stone? No, actually, I made many changes in, I mean, in prep, you know? Like, he wasn't on the phone walking to the hospital. The whole final lab attack is completely different than it was scripted and storyboarded. So it was like during production, um, the stunt team took my storyboards and they do, they stunt always does a pre-vis where they film like, you know, on an empty stage. They film your sequences to show you what they're gonna do in their approach, right?

• 1:41:42Sean Fennessey?

  And so I actually had the good fortune of watching the lab attack as it was scripted and boarded, you know, probably week two of production. And I was like, this is not good. It's just, and it's not, they didn't do anything, it's the conceit is is not working. It's too quick and it just it didn't work. So during production, I had to rewrite, re-board, and then and then, you know, reshape that whole final sequence. I know people still find it unsatisfying, but you know, it is what it is. Actually, love it. I don't give a shit. But, um, but we had to, we had to pivot and reinvent the whole ending of the movie. And, um, it was always gonna end with him turning into a monster, but it was like the sequence of events was completely different.

• 1:42:23Sean Fennessey?

  So when, when you realize that something that you've come up with isn't good, are you like, but is, is it, are you beating yourself up about it? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not good about like being nice to myself. But then how do you figure out how to fix it? You obsess and you just obsess and you, you try many different, I, you know, I try and give myself, okay, I'm gonna write six different solutions to this problem and I'm gonna let all six of them be bad. Okay, my only goal, the only metric of success right now is that I have six separate things. Okay.

• 1:42:59Sean Fennessey?

  And then generally, one of them will be, will surprise me, you know? I give myself space to have bad ideas. I encourage myself to have bad ideas. When I do that, something, I, I unclench from result and I am allowed to trick myself into having fun and being creative. And so that's, I try and approach writing that way. I try and approach everything that way. Try and take as much of the result and the stress out of the creative process, which is very difficult when you're dealing with tens of millions of dollars of someone else's money. But, um, that's, that's how the, the joy comes through, you know? And so, so, you know, it's hard when you're in production and you're fucking exhausted. You've got, your movie's broken and you gotta figure it out.

• 1:43:42Sean Fennessey?

  But, you know, I feel like the only tool I have is to like, don't solve it, just play with it, you know? And, and give yourself a, like, give yourself permission to have a bad idea and generally you'll, you'll, you'll accidentally have a good one. Did you actually like working at this scale? Cause even though this is such an intimate, tight story, it's a, I feel like it's a much bigger movie than the two previous movies. It is, it is. It feels smaller to me. Um, and it's partly the runtime, partly it's one, one actor.

• 1:44:13Sean Fennessey?

  But it was, it was, you know, in a lot of ways, I, I completely recognize how it's bigger. All these set pieces were all like little movies in and of themselves. It's never, it just, you know, two people sitting and talking in a room, sounds like paradise to me now. But, uh, so, yeah, I get it. But it's also, it's like, you know, if you're prepped and you, and you, everyone is on the same page and everyone is clear about the mission, it's not, it's not so daunting, you know? Clear, clear planning is the, is the solution to all of the overwhelming, you know, things that come. And the lizard will grow to the size of its cage. So even if I was shooting like a, a movie in a diner with two people talking, somehow, some way, it would become overwhelming, almost.

• 1:44:56Sean Fennessey?

  You know, that's just the law of making any movie ever. It's like, you always feel like you just don't have enough time and you just don't have enough money. And how are we gonna pull this off? And then you just do, you know? Because you, you leap before you look and you just, you just have to have faith that like, you're gonna figure it out. Do you see, um, even though the timing was not necessarily in your control, each movie being kind of a reaction to each other in terms of what you're trying to accomplish? Tonally or the scope or anything like that? Maybe. I don't know if I have enough perspective to know if that's true. I know that like Resident Evil was supposed to be my like, just play. And then, you know, Weapons is this deeply personal, um, necessary thing for me.

• 1:45:38Sean Fennessey?

  And then Flood is this like, other, like, really important thing to me. And, and this was supposed to be like a little fun palate cleanser in between these two, like, you know, things. So I, and that, that's how I think of them is like, you know? I think of Resident Evil though is a little heavier than the way that you have described it a few times. It is, and there is a lot of meaning for me in that politically and personally. And there's, there's, there's, and it's funny, like, Resident Evil has not been consumed by the, the meaning talk in the way that Weapons was, even though to me it is a movie loaded with meaning.

• 1:46:14Sean Fennessey?

  That's fine. I have to let that be what it is. Do you think that, okay, actually, I wanted to go back and ask, ask you about something you mentioned earlier. You said that you thought you might lose the chance to make this movie if you didn't make it when you did. Yeah. But I also read you say that, that maybe you just wouldn't call it Resident Evil and you would still make the movie. No, I, I don't know. I don't remember saying that. I, I trust that I said something along those lines. I think what I was trying to communicate was like, I have to write a movie that would matter to me whether it was or wasn't called Resident Evil. Like, I would never wanna make something just cause I, I get to make a Resident Evil movie. I would, you know, it has to be a movie that is like a burning thing for me.

• 1:46:57Sean Fennessey?

  I would not have made this movie if I couldn't call it Resident Evil. I think that, that's been like, and I don't wanna even get into the whole bullshit of, of like how the internet has been, you know, whatever, my relationship to the internet. But I think, I, I think I, yeah, I know, right? I know. I, but I do think that people have accused me of hijacking the franchise IP to make my, a movie I wanted to make and slapping Resident Evil on it. Right, right. For, so I could get. But that isn't what you said a year ago. You were like, I love these games. I'm inspired by the game. Look, I know the truth about myself, so I think I just spat when I said the truth about, about this. And I sleep soundly at night, cause I know, I know me and I know why I did this. I wanted to write a Resident Evil movie. That's the movie we made.

• 1:47:42Sean Fennessey?

  I think along the way, I fell in love with the story and I would've wanted to make it, even if they took the Resident Evil thing away from me. I don't think I would have, but I would've wanted to. So I think that's what I was saying, but. But there's also something wonderful in the movie with respect to that, that I'm, I'm not a gamer and I played Resident Evil, but not hardly at all. But I do know that you are like actively nodding and at times almost replicating the experience of either playing the game or like I'm, uh, like searching for the shotgun shells or the one that, you know? The point of the movie. The opening drawers, you know, they're like, you know, like, and obviously dropping an everyman into a situation rather than a, you know, special forces guy. So I'm curious like how much of that you're thinking about in the construction?

• 1:48:25Sean Fennessey?

  Where you're like, this is gonna be a tasty little Easter egg for my friends at home versus, you know, can the, the, the mom I was on the playground with who was asking me about the movie yesterday, can she enjoy it, having no relationship to this? You know, I wrote it a while ago, so I don't remember, you know?

• 1:48:44Sean Fennessey?

  I think I just knew like, this story will approximate the feeling of the games. It will, you know, it, it will check the boxes that I want checked in a Resident Evil movie. And then as I'm going, you know, the Easter eggs are just organic to the story. So I'm not really shoehorning anything in, you know? I mean, yes, I put some spray cans over here at a frame and I made sure that the ammo box is the exact same. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the barn, yeah. Honestly, here's, I'm, uh, you heard it here first, but you know, that typewriter on the desk, I went back and reshot that, cause I forgot to put the, that wasn't even about that, you know? I just, he looked in an empty office and then like a week and a half later, I was like, I gotta put the typewriter on that desk. We gotta go back and we gotta reshoot that. And I did, and I'm so glad I did because, you know? People like it, yeah.

• 1:49:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, but it's like, that just goes to show you, that is not my priority in making this movie. It's like, get the Easter eggs, you know, all that stuff. I just, yeah. There's, there's also something that I found really amusing in the movie and I was wondering how intentional it was, which is it felt like you were kind of glancing at or mocking horror movie orthodoxy. It was sort of like, um, the safety on the gun, no service on the cell phone, these like conventions that we encounter or like a little girl who seems like she needs help. Like there, these are things that we come to expect in these movies, but because the movie is this very delicate balance between horror and comedy, like, it's not, oh, no service, this character's fucked. It's like, no service, of course, this guy's a buffoon, you know? Like, there's like.

• 1:50:11Sean Fennessey?

  How is it his fault that there's no service? What an idiot, dude. Because he made that stupid choice, no snow, you know, no chains. And so he's in this situation he shouldn't be in, you know? Like, we, we like Austin, obviously, but, you know, he's like a, I, I saw him the whole time as a silent movie character, as like a Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin guy who's like, we like you, we're rooting for you. You keep doing the wrong thing, dude, you know? Like, why did you do that? So I don't know how much you're thinking about, you know, the meta textual idea versus what's just gonna make this movie fun? Just, just that, just what's gonna be fun. I, I, I'm not smart enough to take all the meta textual. I, but I don't think that that's true, cause you're thinking about theme in, in your movies. So like. That, that is more my lane. Um, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Can, should I, can I ask about theme?

• 1:50:54Sean Fennessey?

  Sure. I mean, I don't wanna be telling the themes because. Okay. Because that's such an, it's such a lazy thing. And I embarrassed myself with Barbarian, you know, where like that movie came out and I was so amazed that anyone cared about anything that I had to say about that movie. So I, I, I would tell anyone who was willing to listen what it means and what that means and why that's there. And then I've, after I kinda came out of that, that season, uh, I was really embarrassed, you know? Because I think, yeah, because it's not, that's not classy, A. And B, it's like, I don't trust the work to speak for itself, you know? It's like, if it's, if it's really all there, then smart enough people should be able to check it out

• 1:51:38Sean Fennessey?

  and, and other people should be able to like, not worry about it. And why do I have to be out in front of the movie, it's teaching the movie, it's not good. You're, you're right, and yet there's a conflict there. One, for people like me, I'm just gonna ask, like, I'm, I'm just, I'm just curious, you know? I just wanna know because I'm alighted to something while watching it. When it's done, I'll, I'll tell you everything. But I don't wanna be on a podcast being didactic about my own fucking zombie movie. But I think part of it is because there's this wonderful history in genre movies of smuggling in ideas. You know, it's, it's not like an, a deep emotional drama where it's very clear on the surface, like, this is about the broken American family.

• 1:52:21Sean Fennessey?

  Because in genre, it's like, you can load a lot of stuff into it. But how lame would it be if George Romero, right after Night of the Living Dead came out, was like, did you see how it's about Vietnam and race? Did you get it? Like, that is not cool. You know what I mean? It's, it's not, it's not cool, but we do, we sort of, well, why do we demand it, you know? It's like, you put it there for a reason.

• 1:52:43Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know. Is it demanded? I think a lot of like, I, I don't, I don't know the answer to that. That's a good question. It's a good challenge to the work that you're doing and the work that I feel I'm forced to do in the aftermath of the work that you do.

• 1:52:55Sean Fennessey?

  I do wanna ask you about gore.

• 1:52:58Sean Fennessey?

  Because in, in that conversation I was having with the mom on the playground yesterday who was asking me, can I go see it? I said, you know? Do you, are you into gore? Like, are you into a gory horror movie? And I'm curious if you have like a philosophy about it. I don't know if I do. I mean, I don't like torture porn. You know, there are definitely movies that are where the gore, if the gore's the point, it's like, I'm not interested at all. But I do love me some gore. I mean, there are, I think that Irreversible, look, and I'm not gonna get into the merits or the, the conversation about Irreversible. But the fire extinguisher scene is, to me, like, put it on Mount Rushmore.

• 1:53:40Sean Fennessey?

  That is, that is like a true masterpiece of movie violence and I'm, you know, I'm obsessed with that, you know? There's this, there's another movie that has a scene of gore that, that shocked me so incredibly deeply, uh, and I tried to do that in Resident Evil. It's a movie that I bet you've never heard of called Los Bastardos. I don't know. Yeah, it's incredible movie. It's like, uh, and there's a scene, I was watching this just kind of by myself, my, and, and there's a scene where a character shoots a woman in the head with a shotgun and the gun is in the frame and her head explodes. And I remember it was like, I was like offended. It was so shocking. Yeah. I was like, you can't do that. Like, I, I, I thought I'd seen like a snuff film or something.

• 1:54:24Sean Fennessey?

  It's not, you know, it's a, just a low budget genre movie, but it was like, it, it, it like broke me. And so it's another thing I reshoot where I was trying to get something like that in this. And so originally, when she comes running in and her head, you know, goes, I had her, just a, just a single on her. And then like, like a week later, I was like, guys, we have to go back and reshoot that because the trick is the gun has to be in the frame. You have to see the muzzle flash instantaneously with the head explosion. That's what makes the magic. And I should have learned that from Los Bastardos, which I haven't seen in over a decade. So maybe that I'm, I could even be misremembering the language of that movie.

• 1:55:07Sean Fennessey?

  But, um, so we went back and I, and I made sure that Austin was in the frame and the gun goes off and we, we redid it, which is, by the way, never a fun conversation when you're like making a movie, like, hey, by the way, we're gonna go back and reshoot that thing we already shot. But, um, I've never regretted doing that. Yeah, but that movie, that moment plays so, I saw it a second time. It matters. Plays so well. It matters, right? And, and I think if I hadn't done it, I would have, I would have shortchanged one of the more fun moments of the whole movie. Well, speaking of that sequence, one thing I think about with a lot of your films, all of them really, is like how much speed matters? And how it feels like there's like, kind of an engine in characters, like the chase at the end of Weapons, certainly the chase at, you know, in Barbarian.

• 1:55:49Sean Fennessey?

  Like, there, there are these moments where like people, not just running, but the ticking clock sensation they are getting every time you're watching a moment and someone is in danger. Like, I guess this is a little bit of like, how do you do that in terms of editing and creating a sense of discomfort and this impending doom that is coming? I have no idea. I don't know. I, I haven't really thought about like speed.

• 1:56:13Sean Fennessey?

  So I'm not prepared to have any sort of insight into it. I just, uh, I don't know. I mean, movies are made of movies, right? You know, I heard Cormac McCarthy in an interview say, books are made of books. And I thought that was such a beautiful, like, that's so true. And if that's true of books, then it's definitely more so true of movies. And so I, I'm sure I'm just stealing what I've loved in other movies, you know? I mean, I, I am, you know? So, um, whatever momentum that is being, you know, harnessed is, is really, I'm only as good as everything I've seen. When we talked after Weapons, I, we, I played a game with you where I just said movie titles to you and I was like, were you, were you thinking of this? And you were like, yes, no, no, no, idiot, no. I don't know if I said that, but okay, all right.

• 1:56:57Sean Fennessey?

  This one, that feels, feels like there's, it's more overt in a very, in a very gratifying way. Yeah. Can I, can I throw a couple? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Just for the purposes of like, um, kind of understanding, not just what you were thinking of when you're making it, but like maybe how you direct actors or the tone that you're going for. Like, to me, I'm gonna give them all to you at once. You can, you can choose whatever ones you like, but specifically, this is what jumped out. After Hours, Die Hard, Fargo, Back to the Future, Evil Dead 2. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. All of them. Okay. Okay, so did, have you heard about like Austin's in my shorthand on this? No. Okay, so his baseline, we kind of figured out, was, um, was Marty McFly, right? This is exactly what I said on the show.

• 1:57:39Sean Fennessey?

  And so we were like, okay dude, your center of gravity is Marty McFly. All right, the way, so it's the way you move, it's your, your level of courage, your, your, your nature, so, okay, McFly. Now, there are times where you're badass a little bit, we're gonna tick you into the, so that's McLean. So we'll dial our McFly into the McLean. And then there are times where you have no dignity and you're shrieking like a little bitch and running, and you know, the hat, and that's McAllister, right? And so we would be, we would be dialing in, I think on this one, I'm gonna just go full, full McLean. I'd be like, yeah, like, I, I actually thought this might be McAllister. Wow. So we would. The three Max. Yeah, I know, and it's lucky for us. But that, that would be, we would talk about that a lot.

• 1:58:21Sean Fennessey?

  And so there's like scenes where we would try, do this one McLean, let's see how it feels. Okay, try it again, try it, try it McAllister, let's see what this is like. Okay. And so that, that really was our shorthand going into this. This is a very different performance for Austin from Weapons. Weapons, especially going back and looking at it, is like a real transformation where I don't, I don't think I realized how much he had like. He's unrecognizable. Yeah, he's so, looks just so different. And now it feels like he's like a star, so you don't, you, you're, it's not, it feels odd to see him in that way. Yeah.

• 1:58:52Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe just broadly, like, why did you want him for this? Like, cause you thought he could do the three Max? Like, what was the?

• 1:59:00Sean Fennessey?

  No, you know what it was is that we're shooting Weapons, we were having just a, like an incredible time, you know? I mean, honestly, that movie was a really blessed movie where I, every chapter of that movie, I like fell in love with my actor and I, I love Weapons like so much. Austin's chapter was, we just like clicked, we just clicked in a way that was like instant and really powerful. And I remember there's a, there's a scene in Weapons where he's going around the back of the house and, uh, it's raining and he's trying to push his way through this chain link fence. And it's like, and he just like, he pushes and he like kind of squeezes through and then the fence just kind of opens up naturally behind him, which he perfected.

• 1:59:44Sean Fennessey?

  He could, he could like magically make that happen every single take, which is like, I was like, this guy can do anything. Like, he is, he is, his, there's a, there's a subroutine that has to run in an actor's mind when they're on camera, right? And that subroutine is, consists of like, of hitting my mark and waiting for this timing and where's the camera and how do I open up? It's all of the technical considerations that, that need to be present, right? And, but, you know, it needs to be running underneath the central program of inhabiting the truth of the situation in this character. Austin's subroutine is like so dialed in that I, I, I just recognized immediately like,

• 2:00:29Sean Fennessey?

  I'm dealing with a Ferrari here. Okay, so that's, that's one thing. But then the way he was muttering at the gate as he came through, he's like, don't touch me, man. He like did this thing, and I was like, I was like dying laughing, and I'm like, Austin, come, come, come. And then he would like run over and we'd watch playback and like, you know, have a fit of laughter and do, do that again. And then he would do it again and we were just like, there was like a, a charge, you know? And that whole chapter with him, we were just like, just total pigs and shit, just like, in love with what we were doing, feeling the magic. And I knew that, you know, when it was time to make Resident Evil, and I didn't say anything to him while we were shooting Weapons, but I just knew like, if this guy can play a

• 2:01:12Sean Fennessey?

  thieving junkie and we all just wanna take him home and put him in our pocket and like, you know, love him, like, then I am, I am like totally playing with loaded dice if I can get him in Resident Evil because like, we love him. And he's so good. He's really wonderful. There's another rules question I'm curious about.

• 2:01:34Sean Fennessey?

  The movie features dog zombies, child zombies, rat zombies, baby zombies. Oh, the rats, you know, so the stickers he looks at? Yeah. You know, that's, did you put that together? No. So the stickers, that's everyone he kills.

• 2:01:52Sean Fennessey?

  You know, and the idea, okay, getting into theme, you know, he's terrified of family and change and he sees this and he's been annihilating his family as we go. The rat, I did, I'm just now realizing, I'd put a little mouse next to the dog. Anyway, whatever, just, I'm, I'm having this realization right now, I fucked it up. Well, no, I mean, not, maybe if you had a pet snake and then the mice, you feed the snake, that brings you into the family unit.

• 2:02:17Sean Fennessey?

  Did you actively think that about like violating the rules of decency by having all these, be like? Gives a shit. Well, you've already, you've cited Irreversible here in this conversation. I'm not that guy. That doesn't really. Yeah, I mean, I, I enjoyed that though. It did feel like it was sort of like, all bets are off. Like, when Chris and I talked about the movie on the show last week, he was like, oh, I'm a little worried this is gonna turn into like some lone wolf in cub thing with a little girl. And was so relieved when he just blew that girl's head off, you know, that there was something very fun. That would be the lamest turn the movie could take. And now it's like Brian, like, no, and they learn a lesson together. But that happens all the time. And then at the end, he says goodbye to her and then he's like, I do wanna be a, like, fuck that movie. I would never wanna be in that movie. Yeah. Why is Brian so afraid of family and change?

• 2:03:03Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, I'm.

• 2:03:09Sean Fennessey?

  I'm curious about your signatures. Who's not? What, but hang on, what young man isn't? I agree, I agree. I talked to Amanda, my co-host, yesterday and she said, this is a movie about how all guys are scared to have a child. Yes. And I said that, then, well, that's probably true. Not totally true. It's also about blowing people's heads off. But, uh, I think the signatures thing is funny. So we saw like a clip of the movie months ago at CinemaCon and I'm, I'm pretty sure that the shot of the woman racing towards the house was in whatever they showed us. Okay. And I was like, oh, Cragor shot. Okay. And I don't, what is it, how, how do you think about that? Like having moves that people identify now and then does that make you rethink how you do things?

• 2:03:48Sean Fennessey?

  No, no, I mean, I think it's okay for any artist to have their, their personality in the work, you know?

• 2:03:59Sean Fennessey?

  I, I, I don't wanna ever get caught up in thinking about what, I would never want to, to have my output dictated by that sort of consideration. That's not healthy, you know? I think the way I think, I visualize things the way I visualize them, you know? And, and I, I am, as long as I am not feeling stagnant or like I'm repeating myself, um, then I'm okay with it. If it. Feels like a motif, I'm okay with it. If it feels like I've run out of room, that's a problem. Okay. But I don't feel that way yet, you know? Is there a particular kind of thing you haven't done yet that you want to do? Um, no, I mean, I'm doing what I want to do.

• 2:04:40Sean Fennessey?

  The Flood is like, you know, Flood is gonna be the most challenging movie, but I think it is going to be, um, a movie that is gonna push, I'm gonna really push myself in terms of how I have, you know, um, characters and, and, and, and it's, you know, the drama of that movie, I think, is, is, is me. Like, if, if this movie was me playing Sam Raimi, then that, it doesn't matter. I don't want to talk about it too prematurely, but it's, it's just a different frontier for me. Okay. Um, so I'm excited for that. One thing that I think is really great about your movies is that they do feel like, when they're over, they're over. Like, they do feel like mic drop movies.

• 2:05:22Sean Fennessey?

  And it's, that's a bold act in, in, in an IP movie, you know, to say like, that's it, we're done. Yeah. Like, I'm not coming back. And yet, you keep making movies and people are like, hey, so what's the sequel? And they want to give you a lot of money and they want you to make the sequel. And then you get put in this position. What an amazing, like. You're very lucky and very talented. Very fortunate. But of, of, most great filmmakers, I would venture to say all great filmmakers, who make commercially appealing genre movies, do eventually get drawn back in to their most beloved properties. And I'm wondering like how you think about that? Cause it seems like you've been pretty resistant to it thus far. Yeah, I just, I have more stories to tell that are different.

• 2:06:07Sean Fennessey?

  And I, if I, if that's the case, then that's what it is. I have to, I have to go to my next, uh, love. And, um,

• 2:06:20Sean Fennessey?

  the reason anything I do is good is because it comes from a place of love and joy. And if I were to double back and try and do something from a place of commercial concern, then it probably wouldn't be as good. And so I, that's it. That's the answer, you know? I am so in love with Flood, um, that there's no amount of money that would make me consider anything in front of that movie. Okay. You know what I mean? It's very honorable. Who knows on the other side of that movie? I may come crawling back, hey, Barbarian prequel! You know, like, that would never happen, but you know. You kind of already did it in Barbarian, did you not? Yeah, I mean, that movie, I would, first of all, what, what a repulsive sequel,

• 2:07:03Sean Fennessey?

  you know, that would have to, like, there's no world where that would be. You never know. I, I do. Okay.

• 2:07:11Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, a couple more for you. When Curry Barker was here in May, he said, uh, I talked to Zach and, and he was really nice to me. And he helped me. And I was like, oh, that's cool. That's really sweet of you to say. He might've said it off mic, but I think he's already said it afterwards, so I don't think it really matters. Fair. Um, and I know that you've talked to a couple of people who are older than you, who you really admire. Yeah. And so I'm, I'm a little bit curious about the secret fraternity of mentorship. How does that work? How do you get in touch with people? How do they get in touch with you? What responsibility do you feel to that? I am happy to talk to anybody, I feel like, that is, is coming to me with, with a real, actual issue that I can help with, you know? If somebody's like, how do I get into the business?

• 2:07:56Sean Fennessey?

  It's like, I'm, you know, I, I, but if somebody is like, I'm, I'm making a movie and I'm, I'm having an issue, I've got all the time in the world, you know? Um, I think Curry is so special and so I'm just like, you know, I'm honored to be able to, to offer any, anything. I also feel, it's so funny, I've only made three movies, dude. I've only made three movies. I don't feel like an elder statesman. I feel like I am still figuring myself out. I have a long way to go. Um, but I also recognize that, you know, that's, that's three more movies than a lot of other people have made. And so I, I have learned some stuff. I don't even know what I'm saying right now. Um, I don't know. It meant the world to me to be able to talk to some of my heroes and, and have them give me time,

• 2:08:38Sean Fennessey?

  to give me actual time and to like pay attention to my movie and, and offer, you know, solutions to problems that I wasn't aware of. You know, Jordan Peele helped me with Barbarian, which was like amazing. And, and, you know, I've talked, David Fincher helped me with Weapons, which like, oh my God. Um, so of course, I'm, I'm, I'm honored to pay that forward to other talented people. Yeah.

• 2:09:04Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think there'll ever be a time when you don't work in genre? I have no idea. Probably not, because who knows? I would never want to say that now because I change, you know? Everyone changes and, and, um, but my, ever since I, it's funny. My mom sent me a text yesterday, she saw the movie. She said, you know, I'm so proud of you, Zach, you know? The little boy who drew bloody knives in church and, uh, and it turned out okay, you know? And it's like, this is who I've always been, you know? Um, yeah, I mean, I concerned, I scared my mom a lot as a little kid, you know? She'd be like, what's your favorite color? I'd be like, red and black. And she's like, Jesus Christ.

• 2:09:43Sean Fennessey?

  You know, like, I got in so much trouble at school because I would write horrible things, you know, just to entertain myself and draw horrible things. That's how you get it out. Yeah. And to me, it's like, there's not a cause for concern here. This is, yeah. I think horror fans are the same way. That we like these movies because we're like, we gotta get this out, you know? Like, there's a primal interest in it, but it's not prurient. Like, it's not dangerous. It's just we're something we're interested in. I'm a genuinely friendly, happy person, you know? I really am. And, um, I, I don't really care why, for whatever reason, I'm obsessed with like horrible, dark art, but I have always been. I'm no longer interested in the origin of that. Okay.

• 2:10:26Sean Fennessey?

  I just, I, I like what I like and, um, and I make what I make. And so, you know, if I never make a romantic comedy, I would give two shits, you know? I'm fine with this. Wow, that's inspiring. Um, speaking of, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Do you feel, do you watch, still watch a lot of movies? Yeah. Cause you're so movie literate and so comfortable talking about them in the process of making your movies. But some filmmakers, when they start making movies, especially in Succession, they don't watch as much. I watch a lot. I mean, I, I do. I, I just am always interested in the, in the process. So I, I want to know why they put the camera there? Why is that light there? You know, what, why does this edit suck?

• 2:11:08Sean Fennessey?

  You know, so I feel like I learn more from watching mediocrity and bad movies sometimes. Um, just because I'm like, oh, that's why it doesn't work, you know? Um, I still like good movies. There's not a lot of them, I feel like. Um, the last thing I watched that I was really, you know, there's a movie on Shudder called Dead Mail? Have you seen Dead Mail? No. Oh, buddy. It's good. You know, you got a Shudder movie past me, which is pretty hard to do. Right. Dead Mail? Dead Mail. Is that like a couple of years ago? Yeah, it came out, it came out like, I think, 2023, I want to say, or four? I don't know. I feel like I can even see the, the tile on the, on the service. It was made by like these two teachers, like, I don't know if they're high school teachers or not. I've emailed with them. Um, but, uh, I mean, they made it for like nothing.

• 2:11:52Sean Fennessey?

  What's the, can you do a snapshot of the premise? It's a true, it's a true crime story that unfolds in a really interesting way. And, um, I thought the protagonist was really cool. And I just, I really liked the movie a lot. I was like, you know, I troll Shudder. I start every Shudder movie. I don't finish 75% of them. You and I are the same. Yes, yes. I love what they're doing, though. I, God bless them. I will never end my, my, uh, subscription. Um, but you know, it's, it's, it is, it is doing a necessary thing, Shudder, that I think is, is a, is wonderful. And so I give every Shudder movie, you know, a start. Um, and when you find one that is like, holy shit, is this good? Yes, it is! Oh, my God! You know, like, it's great. So I thought Dead Mail was good.

• 2:12:38Sean Fennessey?

  Great pick, perfect pick. Zach, really good to see you in person. Thanks for doing this. Yeah, okay, I hope to come back when, when we do Flood and let's do that. Okay, just don't fuck it up. Don't fuck it up. I know, right? What if it sucks and you, yeah, I like can't even come back? I think you'll be back. I think it'll be all right. Okay, cool. All right, thanks, man. Thanks, Zach.

• 2:12:58Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, thanks to Zach, he's a man. Thanks to Adam Nayman, also the man. Uh, thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, also the man, for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanagh, the man, for his production support. Uh, later this week, bonus episode, me and Tracy Letts.

• 2:13:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Very excited.

• 2:13:12Sean Fennessey?

  We're talking about Borman and the Devil, which is a new documentary about the making of The Exorcist 2: Heretic, which is John Borman's much maligned sequel to William Friedkin's masterpiece. And then we talked about movies about directors, documentaries and scripted films. Um, that movie is available on VOD on the 22nd, Tuesday. So you can watch that, listen to that episode. And then later this week, uh, primetime.

• 2:13:38Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm ready.

• 2:13:39Sean Fennessey?

  I'm ready as well.

• 2:13:40Amanda Dobbins?

  You gonna thank the women here? You thanked all the men.

• 2:13:43Sean Fennessey?

  I don't see any women here.

• 2:13:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Bye.

• 2:13:46Sean Fennessey?

  Are women working on this show?