Manu Ginóbili - NBA Spurs Legend on the Philosophy of Peak Performance

On today’s podcast, Ryan talks with NBA legend Manu Ginóbili about how he reads books to help his athletic career, using your emotions to perform better, and how to find a mentor in competitive situations. Manu Ginóbili played 16 seasons with the NBA’s San Antonio Spurs, winning four championships as the quintessential sixth man. Ginobili led the 2004 Argentina national basketball team to Olympic gold, the only non-American team to do so since the US Dream Team. This episode is brought to you by Future. Future pairs you up with a remote personal trainer that you can get in touch with from your home. Your trainer will give you a full exercise regimen that works for your specific fitness goals, using the equipment you have at home. It works with your Apple Watch, and if you don’t already have one, Future will give you one for free. Sign up at tryfuture.com/stoic and get your first two weeks with your personal trainer for just $1. This episode is also brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn Jobs is the best platform for finding the right candidate to join your business. And right now, LinkedIn is helping companies like yours find the essential workers that they need in these trying times. Visit http://linkedin.com/stoic to post your healthcare or essential job for free, or to post another job for your business.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Manu Ginóbili: Twitter: https://twitter.com/manuginobiliInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/manuginobiliSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Weekend Edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something that can help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers, we reflect, we prepare, we think deeply about the challenging issues of our time, and we work through this philosophy in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to work or to get the kids to school, when we have the time to think, to go for a walk,

• 0:46Ryan Holiday?

  to sit with our journals, and to prepare for what the future will bring.

• 0:54Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. If you remember in "The Obstacle is the Way," I tell the story of Tommy John. And Tommy John played 26 seasons in Major League Baseball. He was a pitcher. And I was sort of marveling in that section on him, on how long 26 seasons was. I think when he started, Kennedy was president, and when he ended, George H.W. Bush was president. He pitched against Mickey Mantle and Mark McGuire. So 26 seasons. You know, in a normal job, 26 years is a long time. They give you maybe a gold watch or something. I think my dad worked for the police department for 25 years. It's a long time.

• 1:39Ryan Holiday?

  But in athletics, that's like, that's like an eternity. That's like several lifetimes. And my guest today, Manu Ginobili of the San Antonio Spurs, was drafted by the Spurs. He was the 57th overall pick in the 1999 NBA draft, and he didn't end up actually playing for the Spurs until 2002. He played in Europe for a few more seasons. But he played 23 seasons.

• 2:07Ryan Holiday?

  In the NBA, which is incredible. I think the Spurs have consecutively made, they made the playoffs his entire career, and I think they've now made it in both seasons that he has been retired. So it's an incredible run, an incredible dynasty. I mean, just to think about what was going on in the world in 1999. I mean, I was 12 years old for some perspective. Manu's career spans an incredible swath of American history. I mean, from the days of Michael Jordan to the twilight of LeBron James's career, right? And, you know, he saw so many other dynasties rise and fall, and yet he was there consistently

• 2:51Ryan Holiday?

  the entire time, and consistently so too were the Spurs. So that's one of the things we talk about. We talk about how one maintains excellence over the long term. When people sometimes ask me, like, what I'm trying to build in my career, sometimes I joke, like, I want to be the San Antonio Spurs. I don't necessarily, like, obviously, you always want to be the best, but it's, you want to be in contention every single year. And sometimes you're, the moment and the team and everything aligns and you go all the way, but you always want to be in contention. You always want to be in a position for that to happen. I think consistency is the ultimate accomplishment for an artist, for a business, for an athlete. And obviously, that's what I talk about in Perennial Seller as well.

• 3:34Ryan Holiday?

  The Spurs and Manu are sort of perennially great, or were perennially great in his case. And so it's an honor to talk to Manu. I got to know him. He posted about one of the books on Twitter, which as we talk about, we talk about in the interview a little bit. We got to know each other. He invited me out for a game. We had lunch or dinner afterwards, I forget, and then have sort of become friends, which is a surreal thing, you know, for me to even be able to say, having, you know, essentially grown up watching him on television and watching him do what he does. And we have a sort of a little book club. We recommend books to each other. We recommend podcasts to each other. And we had an amazing meal together with Coach Ravel.

• 4:17Ryan Holiday?

  Who I had on the podcast a few, a few months back, I hear in Austin, San Antonio is about 70 miles door to door. As R C Buford, the, the G M of the, the former G M of the Spurs, and now the, the C E O, he likes to point out, it's only 70 miles door to door from San Antonio to Austin. And yet, for whatever reason, the cities feel very far apart. There's not a lot of overlap. They're not only they're close to each other, but there's an amazing city right in between San Marcos, which is where the Texas State University is. And there's this river I like to swim in there. Anyways, this is my interview with Manu Ginobili. We talk about basketball. We talk about Stoicism.

• 4:57Ryan Holiday?

  We talk about drive and ambition. Most importantly, we, we open with a quick conversation on chickens because he's raising chickens with his kids as part of the quarantine. This is their first go around with some farm animals. And he texted me this morning, proof that after many weeks and months of waiting, they, they got the chickens as chicks. They got their first egg. So I'm sure the payoff was finally satisfying. I don't want to brag, but we had seven fresh eggs this morning. So in that one aspect, I guess I come out ahead. But in everything else, the great Manu Ginobili is a inspiration to me, and I think you will really like this conversation. So we'll get right to it. So how was your ride?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Very good. A little uncomfortable towards the end. I'm more of a short distance rider than a long one. So I was a little sore towards the end, but it was fun.

• 5:55Ryan Holiday?

  I'm so American that when you sent it to me and I saw it was 30 kilometers, I couldn't even conceive of how long that is.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  I understand. I had to change it. I had it in miles before, but since I share more with my Argentinian friends, I moved it to kilometers. And then when I share with somebody American, I know there's not even a notion. So 36 kilometers might be 22 miles.

• 6:22Ryan Holiday?

  That's not bad. Not bad at all. Um, and, and my, my other check in question for you is how are the chickens doing?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  The chickens, uh, actually, I'm pretty disappointed that either a fox, a raccoon, a neighbor cat slaughtered a couple, uh, in the last few days. Um, the kids were very hurt. Uh, me too, because we had them for four months and before they could lay an egg, two were killed. But we have five more and more coming on the way, so it's a fun activity.

• 6:58Ryan Holiday?

  So still no eggs?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Still no eggs. It's, uh, I'm expecting any day, uh, four, five months, they say, and I'm at four, so almost, almost there.

• 7:09Ryan Holiday?

  And did you start with pullets? Is that why?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  I started with what?

• 7:13Ryan Holiday?

  Not actual chicks, but a little bit bigger. They call them pullets. Did you start with pul- like, how little were they when you got them?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Uh, you are an expert, uh, farmer. I'm not, uh, at that level yet, but, uh, no, I started with a three-day, uh, chick. Uh, it was a gift for, for my little one. Three little chicks that were two, three days old and, uh, we started from there. That's why it's taking forever.

• 7:37Ryan Holiday?

  Right, yeah, I, I bet next time you'll go with, with full-grown chickens. It's just, it takes too long. It's so boring if you want the eggs.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 7:45Ryan Holiday?

  It's, uh, I, I do feel like it is, it's kind of, I think getting chickens is the first animal that we got, or we might've got goats first, I don't remember. But, but there is kind of a, a lesson in owning the chickens, which you, you know, rudely experienced this week, which is that life is very brutal and violent and unmerciful, and you kind of are very insulated from that until you get chickens and then you come out and, uh, a possum has ripped one of their heads off, or, you know, they've killed each other, you know? Uh, that's one of the weird parts about owning livestock or farm animals is just how much death there is.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  It's, uh, crazy, yeah. First time we had a, of an incident with one of the doors of the coop and one of the doors just fell on top of the head of one. And when we went to feed them and my kids saw that, their faces, oh my, uh, it was a tough one. Um, and then this happened and yeah, it's, it's a tough, uh, learning process, but, uh...

• 8:51Speaker 01

  You know, it's the way life goes and they are learning and they are taking care of them. I think it's a good family experience. I mean, I would love to go all in on a farm and get the full experience. But, you know, we live in the city, so having five chickens is the most we can do at now at this point.

• 9:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's the weird part about it is like your, I remember we had these geese and we had one of the, we really loved one of the geese, one of the geese or the goose or whatever. And it disappeared, it something, something took it, it didn't come back that night or whatever. We were really sad about it. And then we noticed that the other four geese did not care at all. And it's sort of a reminder of how sort of quickly animals can process loss and grief and death. And even, you know, they're scared one second and then two minutes later, they're right back to normal. It's sort of humbling to watch these animals handle something that, you know, it took us like days or weeks to get over. Meanwhile, they were over it in two seconds.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Completely different. With the first incident we had, the chicken was there, dead. And the other five were just pecking around. And I mean, it's not that we can read emotion, chickens emotions, but it didn't feel like anything changed. And life goes on and they had to keep pecking and that went on. So it's cool to experience that.

• 10:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah. So you and I got connected, obviously you'd read one of my books and then we connected on social media. And I feel like we've become friends since then. I'm curious, when did reading start for you as an athlete? Was that something you'd always done or did that come later in your career?

• 10:46Speaker 01

  It came in.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Like for a few months and then I start reading early in my career. I kinda used it a lot as a way out of my head, of my basketball head. You know, I, I was very competitive, very intense, very strict with myself. And I went over and over and over the last play or the last mistakes of the, or the last uh loss or whatever. So I, I needed something to get out of my head. So reading was something that got me into completely different worlds and stories and learning something. So in the last 10 years, I would think of my career, I, I started reading more and, and

• 11:35Speaker 01

  getting more into the degenerating in general. So uh that's when I got into, you know, as a way of self-help and trying to improve how I thought, how I lived life and, and you know, one of the books that I got across was uh, well, both actually, um, The Obstacle and Ego is the Enemy. But I, I thought that ego was the one that affected me the most because in our game, we, we all thought that we needed it. We, we thought that if we didn't have that ego, a completely different of self-confidence. We, we talked about it too.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  So uh we, we thought that it was completely necessary and I, I was starting to, to feel that change and I, I got, you know, by the title, I got hooked at it and reading the stories and so I really got into it. I started following you and that's how we uh connected. But uh yeah, ego and uh The Obstacle were the two that uh got my attention first.

• 12:39Ryan Holiday?

  So maybe I'm such an introvert. I, I was assuming that, that it must have been, you know, playing overseas and then playing in America, that it must, I, I would have thought like, oh, he, he became a reader because he's sort of far from home, there's a language barrier, he's just like turns towards books, but, but you're saying it's later?

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I also, I've always been a curious mind, so I wanna know about other stuff. And if I now listen to a wine connoisseur and, you know, I get interested. And if I go to a museum and I see a archaeologist, I get interested and I start asking questions. And then maybe I get into reading one of his books. And with different topics, I get excited too. So I, I'm also curious and I like learning stuff. But the truth is that I, especially after games, reading really helped me. And towards the end, at the beginning was, you know, more on the computers, video games or movies.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  But towards the end, really relaxed me and got me to, to get my head busy into something more productive and calm me down and got me to sleep earlier. So it was a great addition to my career, starting reading more.

• 13:59Ryan Holiday?

  Do you mostly read in English? Or, I mean, I'm jealous of people who can read in multiple languages.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  If, yes, I mostly read in English because most of the books I'm reading are in English. If I read a Spanish author, of course, I'll read it in Spanish or, you know, a Spanish-speaking author. So I would say eighty English, twenty percent Spanish.

• 14:23Ryan Holiday?

  I'm curious about your, you're talking about your intensity and your competitiveness. I guess you're, you're one of the only people I can ask this. But, so, you know, I'm, obviously I'm fascinated with Jordan. Everyone's watched The Last Dance. And I think one of the lessons people sort of take away from that is like, oh, you have to be like a killer. You know, you can't ever let up. You have to have this sort of intensity, this desire to win at all costs. And one of the interesting things for me, obviously getting to know some athletes, is, you know, sometimes when I hear people say that, I go, you know, Mono has four rings. He doesn't seem like he'd rip your throat out. Do you, do you feel like you have that? Or do you feel like maybe that's a misperception about sports?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  I think there are different levels of competitiveness. And I think Jay was just at a different level than everybody else. And the fact that he was so gifted, so good. And so strict with himself, kind of made it to to push the other ones the same way as he was pushing himself. And it's like when you are so good and and you push yourself so hard, it's like you you kind of demand it on the rest. I think I'm doing all this, how can you not? And it's hard to to have empathy that, you know, some other players have a different mindset. And they just play because they like it and it's not all about winning or winning at all costs.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  So, yeah, watching the documentary was super fun to see how I relate to some things. Some others I said, no, not even close.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  But me being a huge, huge fan of MJ in those times, it was super exciting to to watch it and and witness it. Of course, I can't even compare to Jordan in any levels. I did win four championships, but, you know, our best player was Tim and Tim was the one pushing us. And we were just helping and we were trying to to be as good as we can. But, yeah, I agree that there are other ways to to lead, to win and get the best out of people without making it hell.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  So I think the way that Jordan behaved or acted was the only way you could when when you are Michael Jordan. I I guess like guys like him or Kobe, they are just at a different level mentally and skill level. So it's hard to to put yourself in their body or their head when they are so different, right, than than the rest.

• 17:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, you make a good point, which is that the competitiveness and the drive and the ferocity of it almost doesn't work unless it's coupled with extreme talent. I was just reading this fascinating book called The Wise Men, which is about sort of US foreign policy over the, you know, basically from World War I to Vietnam. And it was talking about the Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, and who is this sort of brilliant but kind of a serbic, you know, quick-witted guy. And they were saying that that a lot of his virtues were imitated by less talented people, and that was not so good. So I think, you know, it's sort of like people read about Steve Jobs and they go, oh, to

• 17:56Ryan Holiday?

  be a CEO, you have to be an asshole. That's probably the wrong lesson to take from Michael Jordan. You should take, no, you have to, you have to be really good and you have to love the game. You know, it's like, it's almost like we look for the part of it that excuses our, the worst parts of our personality, instead of focusing on the parts that would actually challenge us.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  If you're not as good as him and you behave as him, you'll be gone in a blink of an eye. The team, the organization would not allow it unless you are that special and with the way you compete and you, what you provide to the team makes it worth it. So you really gotta be that special to be that intense, because as you can tell by watching the documentary, it wasn't enjoyable for many, at many moments. I mean, for many of the guys, it was tough to have to, to withstand all that intensity and accountability.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And so, no, you really gotta be a Jordan, a Bryant, a James, or a, you know, a special guy like that, or Steve Jobs, of course, or somebody like that, that you can see that they are different, that they are visionary or unique to make it worth it.

• 19:24Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, you've played with, I mean, you've played with so many of the greatest of all time, whether it's Tim Duncan, you've played with Steve Kerr, you've played with Robert Horry. I mean, obviously, you've played for Popovich. So you've really been around a collection of the people who have won the most in really the history of the game. What do you, when you, when you look at those people up close, like, so the Stoics obviously are fascinated with, you know, an Alexander the Great, or, or, you know, the sort of conquerors of history, and they were, they were so curious about whether, like, whether you could be happy and be sort of ceaselessly driven in that sense, or whether it was possible

• 20:06Ryan Holiday?

  to be great at that level and kind of not be broken in some way. I'm curious about, obviously, your own experience, being one of the greats of all time, and having, you know, accumulated basically more championships than, than 99.9% of people have ever played basketball, but then also having to see, seeing up close and personal the other people in that league, like, what's your, what's your sense of, of getting to the top of that mountain?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  It's very tough, when, because we are driven by the challenge, right? And to have that challenge, you have to have that type of unsatisfactory, or, unsatisfaction, sorry. You know, we are humans, and humans don't, were not, like, didn't evolve to just be happy and, and chill, and be satisfied with their life, and they are, you know, it's about, you know, drive and necessity and goals. And I think our competitiveness, and you mentioned most of them, like, you know, Bob, Tim, Steve, Robert, whatever, David Robinson, is like...

• 21:21Speaker 01

  They became so good because of constant drive, but also like, you know, competing with other people. And I don't think that we were very stoic behaving. I mean, if you see Pop acting after a loss or after a win, you would tell very quickly that it was not very stoic of him, the way he competed. But, you know, with time, you start improving and maturing, and then you start learning. And there are ways of maintaining some competitiveness and desire, and at the same time, being happy and enjoying

• 22:04Speaker 01

  the ride that we always talk about. So for, I would say that I played 23 years professionally. Eighteen, I was so driven and so goal oriented that unless I won the last of the games, I wasn't happy with myself. And I was remorseful and thinking about the mistakes I made and how I could have been better or how I could have made my teammates better. And then, you know, when you get older and you start seeing the end of your career, you start enjoying other things.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  And wins or losses are not that such a dramatic change. And you become a father and that gets a part of it too. So I think I was way, way better and way happier. My last three years, when I started to act more like that, right? Like, you know, we are loose, okay? I gave my best. I gave everything I had and I tried to.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Provide my teammates with all the tools and but it's just was not enough. It's okay, I'll shake my opponent's hand, I keep going the same way. But I think that a common denominator in most of the highly competitive and successful athletes, stoicism is not something that is ingrained.

• 23:41Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  And I think it's necessary. I always said when we talked or even on Twitter, I said a couple of times, I think it's necessary to read about that stillness. Your last book was, it gives a few awesome hints just to how to improve the quality of your life during this craziness of athletic career.

• 24:05Ryan Holiday?

  No, I think it's true in writing too. I mean, I think it hit me probably on stillness, but maybe the book before. But I was just sort of like, why am I not having any fun doing this? And if I'm not having fun, then the only reason I'm doing it is to get the thing on the other side, which is the success or having it or the critical reception. Which is a very unstoked thing because now you've said that somebody else gets to choose or has power over whether the year and a half of your life that you spent on something was worth it. And that just struck me as totally nuts.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Great. Yeah, I agree. In my case, it was just that somebody else was better than me. So how would you agree that? That I can't enjoy a summer just because somebody else was better than me or I made a mistake or a teammate made a mistake or a ref or whatever.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  It made no sense. But also, as I said before, I started to understand it too late in my career. But it makes no sense when something that you can't.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Really control affects your current state. I mean, it makes some sense. So it really helped me. It helped me to to really because you start maturing and you start to understand it. But once you see it written and that, you know, it's been on on people's minds for thousands of years. I said, yeah, of course. I mean, I live it this way. I'm an NBA player at that at that time. But somebody else was an author, as you said, some mother was an intro. And they went through the same thing. So it's amazing. It was very useful for me.

• 25:52Ryan Holiday?

  I remember I was at a Spurs game last season, and the Spurs were down by a ton. And so they were kind of listless and boring and not playing as they should. And I remember, I think RC pointed out that this was going to happen. But anyways, popped through a basically a temper tantrum, got himself ejected from the game. And and then Tim Duncan took over as coach. It was incredible to watch Tim Duncan coach a Spurs game. But I watched this happen. And and the craziest thing about it is like, you might go, oh, you know, that's, you know, the Stoics would say that's a bad use of your emotions. You're not in control

• 26:36Ryan Holiday?

  of yourself. But it was actually, from what I was told, a very sort of deliberate strategy was trying to wake the team up, get them excited. And and the Spurs ended up losing, but only by one point. And and they'd come back and rallied after this had happened. And so I'm very fascinated with these sort of calculated bursts of emotion, which, you know, again, would on its face be not stoic. But if you're doing it deliberately, maybe it is.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Yes, there were many of those. There are other times when you can tell that they are totally honest. They are the real pain, the real emotion. Some others is calculated. And it happens also in a in a video session in which. You could see, in this case Pop, of course, going ballistic on people and getting frustrated. And sometimes you could also see that he's premeditated, that he was looking for a way to push some of the players to avoid complacency, to avoid that sense of satisfaction when

• 27:45Speaker 01

  you are winning five in a row. So there's a bit of both, but a little more stoicism on, you know, all of us. Who wouldn't really hurt?

• 27:57Ryan Holiday?

  No, I agree. You were telling me something, because obviously I'm a lifelong Kings fan, and you were telling me that when you were coming into the league, you were looking at certain players that maybe sort of didn't fit in one specific role, that you would sort of build your style around. You were saying Doug Christie was one of those players, which is obviously sort of music to my ears. How did you, you know, at that time, not many players had come from South America. So were you sort of consciously looking for mentors that would help you make that transition? Is that what was happening?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I was having a quick developing, right? I mean, not quick in the sense that I got to the NBA at 25, but a lot of things happened before the last two years of my career in Europe, and I saw a lot of things happening. So when I got to the NBA, of course, I had uncertainties. I wasn't sure if I belonged, if I was going to fit in the system of the Spurs, if I was going to have a long career, or it was just going to be a three-year thing and I was going to go back to Europe. So I didn't know. And I started to look at players

• 29:15Speaker 01

  and I started to try to learn what other players did, because I was not comparing myself to Kobe at that time, or Ray Allen. I didn't think I had that type of scorer in me. I thought I was more of an all around type of player and you know the Kings were really good at that time and I remember playing against the Kings and boys Stojakovic and Bibby making so many shots or divots or whatever whatever but Kristi I thought was the glue that made a team a great team too and he was you know getting steals and great

• 29:55Speaker 01

  passes and rebounds and charges so I saw a little bit of myself in Kristi early in my career I was looking at him then it turned out that I developed my scoring ability and I was able to add other things but I remember vividly that one of the first games against the Kings I was surprised because he was not somebody that was on everybody's radar you know who mentioned Kristi when we're watching at the Kings but I remember playing against him and seeing what he could do on the court and I was very impressed.

• 30:38Ryan Holiday?

  He had this reverse dunk he would do sometimes and nobody does that right like and he had this he was sort of yeah always more than you expected which I guess is a sort of the ultimate compliment in one sense that he was sort of always punching above his weight whether it was defensively or explosively like on a fast break or something.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah he understood the game he knew where to be sometimes you may think oh he was in the right spot yeah but he knew how to get to the right spot so this is another type of talent that is a little harder to notice you know you see Stojakovic making eight threes and that's pretty easy to notice or Si Webb doing what he did but seeing Doug you know getting position and get steals and go for helps that maybe was not like expected but he saw something because that instinct he really had so it was fun to watch.

• 31:45Ryan Holiday?

  No, to me, that's like career advice that doesn't get sort of put out there enough. So people, you know, people go, okay, you know, in your, in your game and be like, this is what LeBron James is doing. This is what Damian Lillard is doing, so I should do that. But then they also go, oh, like, this is the hot startup right now, so I'm gonna make a startup in this space. Or, you know, people go, these kind of books are successful right now. I'm gonna make books like that. And what they don't realize is that they are going head to head with the best person in the world at that thing. So I like the idea that you were like, I'm not gonna model myself off Kobe because Kobe is a once in a generational talent. I'm gonna find something, I'm gonna, essentially what you're doing, which is also what you do in basketball, you go where

• 32:29Ryan Holiday?

  there's the least amount of defense, or where there's the least amount of resistance or difficulty. You're always looking for, for open court. And I think people don't do that enough in life. They kind of copy other people and they wanna go head to head against something that's really tough. When really, they're missing, they had a little bit more humility, they'd actually have found a better, less contested opportunity.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. I also think that very important point is that you gotta know who you are, what you got, what you can provide. If you are gonna force yourself into being somebody else that is being successful, it's, it's not gonna work. So with what you have, with what you are, well, try to, to, to find your niche. Try to find the best area to exploit. So in my case, it was, it was that. I, I didn't think I was maybe a big scorer in the NBA. I thought I was a good enough passer. I thought I could be a good enough defender, or I have good instincts with steals

• 33:37Speaker 01

  or charges. So I, you know, I, that's where I saw myself, who I saw myself modeling after. Then I, you know, things went different ways, but I assume, and I guess, that in many areas, it's the same.

• 33:54Ryan Holiday?

  And you played, so you played 23 seasons, probably would have been more if you'd come through the typical, you know, American structure because you would have entered the league earlier. But what's fascinating about that, so you had this incredible longevity, which I'm fascinated with from a like sort of biomechanical standpoint and like sort of how that's physically possible. But it's also, you were a member of perhaps the oldest dynasty in, or the longest dynasty in professional basketball, maybe professional sports. I mean, I think what the Spurs have made the playoffs, like 23 consecutive seasons, maybe 22. But how, I feel like that's another thing that people, people think about, like,

• 34:39Ryan Holiday?

  how do I get successful right now? How do I win right now? But we seem to spend less time thinking about sustainability of whatever we're trying to do.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Man, what happened here is so unusual. You saw it, I don't know much about other sports in America, but you saw it briefly in Utah, I guess, with Sloan, Malone and Stockton. But you don't see it that often, especially in the basketball now, to have a same coach, same core group of players for so long. It is very, very unusual. So, you know, of course, we got a little lucky. And there was a match from the beginning between Abba and Tim, and RC, of course, too, is part of all this, get everything else

• 35:36Speaker 01

  easier. Everybody that came to this organization after that, and after David Robinson, of course, too, was easier to fit, because you could see how the franchise players behaved and how.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  The coach acted and how accountable he held everybody. So everybody that came just fit and nobody tried to be above the the system. So having this type of success for so long is very unusual. So very lucky to have been part of all this.

• 36:18Ryan Holiday?

  How how did you how did in your personal part in that just staying healthy? You know, staying competitive for as long like what what is the? How do you not? I guess it how does an organization? But then also, how did you as an individual not burn out? You know, I think that's what obviously what looks sort of what happened with Tom Brady and Bill Belichick is like at a certain point they were like, I just want to break.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  I guess it was also box touch, right? To to be able to to keep everybody together and keep everybody excited and and happy. Individually, I also luck is a big part because I never had a a big injury. I never had a big issue and I was always, you know, very easy. I I would I never partied a lot, never drunk, I never did drugs and I, you know, I I was, I love the game. I wanted to be the best player I could and I I I've been married forever. And so I I I a life at home.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  So I I I had it easy in that sense. Then I, when I started to see things getting uphill with injuries and I started to fine tune everything, right? Food and sleep and I hired my own physio to to come home and and help me every every day. Or, you know, he was coming from Spain, so he helped me a week every month. And, you know, I started to be more cautious and more careful with everything I did because I I knew it was gonna affect.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  How was gonna compete, not only that weekend, that week, but you know, long term. At thirty-five, thirty-six, thirty-seven, you know, you see young guys coming to the league that are stronger, faster, they jump higher, they shoot better from farther, and you say, oh, I'm gonna compete with all this. So, you know, with your experience and adaptation and knowing the system and staying healthy, you know, I was able to manage and figure it out.

• 38:42Ryan Holiday?

  I imagine just sort of sheer grit has got to be a part of that too, organizationally and individually. There must have been times where you were like, I don't want to do this anymore, but you pushed through that.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Of course, of course, and especially we were held accountable and every game counted. I mean, I don't think anybody in the, in the whole NBA had a, we didn't get a break in one game. Having Pop and having, and being part of an organization that had a chance to win, like it was intense all the time. So for moments, it was tough. And we were, you know, in dinners with Tony and Tim, like saying, oh, here we go again, like it's, it's tough. But, you know, we pushed each other and there were moments where Pop saw that he was pushing too much.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  So he just gave us a little leash. But overall, we, we all felt like we belonged, like we were part of something greater than ourselves. And that's why we, we pushed it and we, you know, we wanted to stay and try to win with our teammates in this organization. So it was a little compromise from everybody.

• 40:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, what, it was like 20 seasons in before the concept of load management became a thing? So you missed, you missed all of that.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Well, actually, Bob was maybe the first one to implement it. And it all started with a game in, I think it was in Miami, that we played in Orlando and just, Bob, out of nowhere, said, "No, you guys are not playing, fly back home." And he got fined because it was a televised game, it was a high-profile game. And he, he started to see that on back-to-backs. That's another thing that helped me play till 40, right? Because my, if you look at my minutes, average minutes, all my career, I think I had only one season in which I played more than 30 minutes.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  So I was, I was always being a backup. I was in load management all my career, so that also helped me. My last five years, I think, maybe, yeah, I barely played any back-to-backs. So yeah, Bob was a precursor, you call it, like one of the first ones to do it.

• 41:21Ryan Holiday?

  My last question for you is obviously what a lot of people are talking about right now. The sort of the activism that we're seeing in the NBA, obviously there in the bubble. I said something about it and someone responded, you know, like, "These guys are getting paid millions of dollars, like, how could they not play?" And what struck me is so insane, because it's like, the whole point of being successful and good at what you do, and this being a free country, is that if you don't want to work, you don't have to work, no one can force you to work. And if you feel like not working or using your platform would allow you to make a statement

• 42:03Ryan Holiday?

  or apply pressure somewhere where it needs to be, I feel like...

• 42:09Ryan Holiday?

  It's it's honorable to do it.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Ryan, I'm amazed what's what's happening. I mean, so proud of what the NBA is doing, of what the players are doing, using that huge platform to talk about what they believe in. And and yeah, there's always going to be people that hate or that disagree, one because they are rich, the other ones because they are poor, they're because they're white or black, whatever. I mean, if if they're wealthy and they speak, it's even more merit. Because they did it good and they are sacrificing themselves and they are uh willing to pay the consequences.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  It's it's amazing what what is happening and I do feel even I'm I'm I've been out for for two years now, but you could tell by how they act, how they talk and you know, after what happened in in Kenosha a few days ago, how they all stopped. They are committed and they are in it together because they have an organization that is backing them up. And and now there's also franchises, whole franchises that are backing them up. So I think it's a great opportunity for change. I mean, I'm so happy that it's going well. I had my doubts about the bubble with this pandemic and how they were going to be able to

• 43:35Speaker 01

  to keep it like that and and it's working great. I'm very proud. I wish I could be there helping in some way, but it's it's really amazing what they're doing. So haters always going to be there. You can satisfy hundred percent of, you know, the people and with social media, you know, even if ten start complaining and saying that they hated a million, say they're it's great, you know, they have a loud voice and they make themselves, they found some way to to hurt feelings and all that. But I think it's amazing what we are seeing and I'm I'm happy to have been part of of that.

• 44:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, people seem to, it's weird even in the stoic community, this idea of justice being a virtue. I think people think that that's just this kind of vague idea that doesn't actually obligate you to do anything, or that it's somebody else's problem. And what I think is so impressive about it is, yeah, not only did the Bucks say, hey, we're willing to forfeit a game here. And when they made the decision, they had no idea, you know, what would happen. And what I thought was so impressive was that the magic were like, no, no, no, no. Like, we're not gonna allow you to, you know, like, we want in on this too.

• 44:58Ryan Holiday?

  I think, I think what's so impressive, and I think it's a good metaphor, or a good learning example for people, is that here you have all these people who are ostensibly rivals, who are, you know, under ordinary circumstances would do just about anything to get an edge over each other. You know, they're all competing for a finite amount of contracts and dollars and championships. And yet, they're able to sort of put that aside and go like, here's where the line is. And the line is, you know, shooting people in the back, or the line is, you know, like violations of, you know, sort of basic human decency, and we're all gonna come together about that.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  It's really awesome. It's beautiful. I agree. Even like when I was younger, I, you know, I consider everybody else's opponents rivals in some way. And, and the game is changing, and guys are realizing that, yeah, we, we try to win a game, but we're all in this together. And we have an amazing opportunity to

• 46:09Speaker 01

  To bring justice, to to get people to know what's going on, to to open their eyes. Um, and that, you know, shut up and dribble, that's BS, man. This is, it's a way, a great way to get everybody to know what's going on. And they are doing it fantastically because, you know, as you, as you all know, everybody knows, the NBA is not a, an American league. It's a worldwide league, it's the, the most followed league in the world. And when things like this happen, maybe it sparks something in, in another country, or maybe not, probably, and other guys are gonna see what's going on.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  So I, I, I think that they are really leading the way, both organization, like the NBA, and players especially, uh, stepping up. So again, I gotta say it again, I'm super proud of what's going on.

• 47:09Ryan Holiday?

  No, and, and I think it's realizing that individuals and individuals, when they come together, have the ability to shape, change, or drive the agenda, or have leverage. Like I was watching this, I watched a video of, of Nick Saban leading a, you know, a, a march of Alabama players, you know, uh, for social justice yesterday. And, you know, he, it's not that he wasn't doing it voluntarily, but like that is a result of the pressure that athletes and college athletes are, you know, have the least amount of leverage or power than probably any athlete in any sport. That's the result of these, these athletes sort of realizing that, you know,

• 47:50Ryan Holiday?

  if they're smart and if they're coordinated and if they're clear about what their aims and demands are, that, that you can exert influence and pressure, which is the whole point of the system that we have here, is that individuals have to do that.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  We athletes, or former athletes, are a few of the people that are like outside of the bubbles that we, you know, you talk to Republicans and they get together with Republicans and they watch Republican media outlets. You talk with the Democrats and they, the same on the other side. Everybody watches basketball. Everybody watches football and baseball. I think we have an amazing tool to reach it to everybody. And the guys are using it. Even arenas are going to become voting venues now. And I think that's going

• 48:50Speaker 01

  to reach to a lot of people, kids that are outside of the system that just, you know, they want to be a basketball player, but now they are listening to the basketball player and they follow them on Instagram, on Twitter, or TikTok, or whatever. So again, they are using it. They're doing it great. They're being great examples, great leaders, and I'm proud of it.

• 49:15Ryan Holiday?

  I love it. Thanks so much. It was, it was awesome to talk again and appreciate all the kind words about the books and we'll have to go for a bike ride one of these days.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  I'm in. We'll meet halfway. I don't know what's halfway between

• 49:28Ryan Holiday?

  San Marcos.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  In San Marcos. All right.

• 49:32Ryan Holiday?

  Perfect. All right, man. Talk soon.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Ryan. See you.

• 49:37Ryan Holiday?

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