Wretch 32: How To Build Unstoppable Self-Belief

Wretch 32 is a British rapper and the co-founder of Green Machine, a company that specialises in CBD products. One of the leading rappers of his generation, he is noted for his especially personal lyrics that movingly convey his making a better life for himself, as well as his relationship with those around him, especially his mother. With every line and every bar he wrote, Wretch pulled his way out of his Tottenham estate and the circumstances he was born into. Growing up surrounded by gang conflict, Wretch has had to navigate right and wrong in a world that sometimes seemed upside down. But what’s fascinating about Wretch is he didn’t move away or let success lead him into a new life. Instead, he stayed in Tottenham. Because he didn’t want success to change him, who his people were, and what was important to him. Follow Wretch: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/officialwretch32/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/wretch32 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Music is Game of Thrones, bro. You see Game of Thrones, they kill the main character. Do you get what I'm saying? They don't mind doing that.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  I think the best turning point for me was when I was 16 and my mum threw me out. She feels like it was a harsh thing to do, but I'm like, at the end of the day, if you don't do that, for me at 16, I don't become Rich.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  We signed for a single, which was Tractor.

• 0:26Steven Bartlett?

  That was my ringtone.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  Twin said to me, he was like, this song's gonna change your life. And then, yeah, bam, it goes in the charts and everything changed after that. The obsession made me better, made me more hungry. When you find your passion, yeah, you find your calling, bro. You're not fair to no one. Everyone comes second, bro. My daughter, she has no recognition of living with me. I just became a monster, man. I just, you can't skip what's important, man. How many, we get 80 years maybe now, your legacy can triple that, bro. Have the right one.

• 0:55Steven Bartlett?

  What if it just hadn't worked out?

• 0:57Speaker 00

  Had to.

• 0:59Steven Bartlett?

  So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:16Steven Bartlett?

  Rich, take me back to Tottenham when you were growing up. I'm a big believer, and to be honest, I always start these podcasts in the same way, because I came to learn when I was younger, the importance of those early years on shaping who we become as adults. And someone said this wonderful quote to me, that we're actually just children living out the stories we told ourselves about ourselves long ago. So take me back to Tottenham, where you grew up and the context in which made you the man you are today.

• 1:39Speaker 00

  Grew up in Seven Sisters in a state called Tibet. And Tottenham was just notorious, innit, for a lot of madness, a lot of crime, a lot of this, a lot of that. And I think for me, just growing up and learning how to navigate through that, how to understand who you are, what you're here for. And also, my parents and grandparents and all that, they were proper embedded in, you know, fighting against police brutality. So I always had a lot of understanding about certain things that were probably above my age. I feel like I was always someone that could get along with everyone, like whether a cool kid, uncool kid, whatever. Like, I could always have something to speak about with anyone. And I think throughout life, that's always helped me and it's always

• 2:24Speaker 00

  been beneficial. But it definitely started when I was young. Um, in their state, just like the regular, the regular stuff, man, that was happening. Do you get what I'm saying? Like a lot of badness, um, stabbing, a lot of this, a lot of that. But we just, when we were very young, we just wanted to play football. You know what I mean? Wanted to play out, play football, play games. But as you get older, you, you know, you start seeing other things, hearing other things. And sometimes even, not even, I wouldn't say not unwillingly, sometimes you're just, you become a part of things because you're there on the day, or you're there at that time. And I think a lot of them early scenarios kind of shaped who I thought I was gonna become at

• 3:07Speaker 00

  that time. The best turning point for me was when I was sixteen and my mum threw me out.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Because

• 3:20Speaker 00

  I now had to be the adult that I thought I was. So before that, I was, you know, walking around the house, had a bravado, had an attitude, thought I was a big man, thought I was a bad boy, thought I was whatever. And, you know, all the time, my mum's kind of like, single mum, you know, there's, um, at that time, there's three, uh, two older sisters and two younger sisters and myself in the house. And just like, at that time, just feeling like I'm feeling myself a bit too much. And my mum was always like, look, I know you feel you're beyond your years, but you're not. You're actually fifteen or you're actually fourteen. And if you continue moving like this, you're gonna be forced to be twenty-one at sixteen. Obviously, as a you, you're not really taking that in, taking it serious. One day I come home and my bags are

• 4:03Speaker 00

  on the door. So I'm kind of like, alright, cool. And I'm like mad prideful as well. So at the time, my sisters were like, look, just have a conversation with her. She's gonna sort it out. Just calm down a bit, whatever, whatever. But I'm just feeling myself still too much. So I'm kind of just like, whatever. I took my bags, went to my cousin's house for a little while. Then I just felt like I was just in other people's space, obviously their family, but I just felt like I'm in the way. I don't like feeling like that. Went to my sisters, still did feel like I was in the way, even though to her she'll say I wasn't, but like, I just don't wanna be a burden to anyone. So then, yeah, just went to the housing and then, yeah, sixteen years old, I was in my place and I learnt so much, man. And I think that's the best,

• 4:48Speaker 00

  the best thing anyone's ever done for me in my life. Why did she throw you out? I was too, too vibey, man. I just thought I was too, I thought I was it. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think as well, it's like, when you think you're it and you're making a little money on the roads and whatever, and you're giving someone money here and there, you're thinking you're doing your part. So maybe I give you two hundred pound this month, maybe next month I don't give you anything. Maybe the next month I give you a grand. Maybe the next two months I don't give you anything, but I'm always reverting back to the fact that, yeah, but I gave you, yeah, but I gave you, or yeah, but I done this, or yeah, but I done that.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  But what you don't realise until you're adult is every month the bills are coming. They don't come staggered like you're giving the money. So it's not like, she can't just pay six hundred pound rent in January and nothing in February. Do you get what I'm saying? So it's like, but you don't have that understanding as a child. You need to be an adult to have that understanding. Like, these bills are coming regardless. And I think, even though she was saying it to me, I was still, you know, like you're still calculating what you're giving, like, no, but I gave, or but I done this, or I done that. It's not enough. The bills don't work like that. Being sixteen and learning them harsh lessons, it's just harsh reality. And I was just like, rah, I actually thought I was a big man. And it's like,

• 6:11Speaker 00

  like years, I was angry with my mum for a bit at the time, as you would be. Not speaking to her? Kind of, like, kind of, trying to be like that. But, you know, like, letters are still going there, so you're still going there. I get, ask my sister, yeah, give me the letter, bring out the letters, don't really wanna go in, whatever. Still, you know, being attached to pride and being attached to too much attitude. And I just had to like, humble myself one day and I'd just be like, you know what, mum, that was the best thing anyone's ever done for me. And she was like, to this day, like, when she hears me say it, she's still, it still upsets her because she feels like it was, you know, very, a harsh thing to do. But I'm like, at the end of the day, if you don't do that, for me at sixteen, I don't become rich at. Twenty odd because he's too comfortable. Wretch comes out of being uncomfortable, being backed in a corner, being forced to be,

• 6:56Speaker 00

  you know, to be a provider, being forced to be the man of his house, rather than thinking he's the man of his mum's house.

• 7:03Steven Bartlett?

  The man of your house. Did you know your father?

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:07Steven Bartlett?

  Did you have a relationship then?

• 7:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My dad's a very, was very, very serious man. Very serious, very serious, very strict, very well respected because of, you know, in the area with all the, the police brutality and all of that, all the things that they fought for and still fight for, him, my uncle and my nan, but just very, very, very harsh, very harsh. And, and the, and the DJ as well. So old school, you remember they used to string up sound systems, like my, my mum's house, like all the speakers throughout the passage, one of the rooms, all the speakers, like all of us had to share because the speakers had their own room. You get what I'm saying? I'm like, mum, can I at least sleep in the, in the speaker? Like, I'm sharing with my sisters. I need a little space or whatever.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  But, um, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good relationship. Obviously him and my mum parted ways. And, um, yeah, still, still kept a relationship. Like, I don't have that, I don't know my dad thing. Like, I know my dad, yeah.

• 8:04Steven Bartlett?

  And, uh, you, your grandmother? One of the things you said about her was that watching her take care of your grandfather, who had cancer.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:14Steven Bartlett?

  Um, was what a really pivotal moment, watching you, how sort of caring she was with him and right up until the point that he passed away.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  You know, like, when you're young, your first experiences of death are like so severe, man. Like, so impactful. Not that, not that it gets any easier, but you understand it more, I think, when you get older. And I just think at the time, I, I don't, I don't, I've never. Understood strength until I met that situation with my grandma and it was just how she, how she was, you know, like Caribbean. So when I'd come around, she's like, make sure you come back again, you know, cause I'm soon dead. And I'm saying, you're saying to me, he's soon dead. Like, he's not gonna die. I don't even understand the severity of cancer. As, as young as I was at that time. She's like, yeah, man, I'm soon dead, man. He's like, and all my friends that he liked, she's like, make sure you bring them to say goodbye. And I'm like,

• 9:06Speaker 00

  say goodbye? Like, what the hell? This, like, everything's cool. But it's like, she's saying it to me like that, but my mum and my dad, they're not like, explaining the severity of the situation to me. They're not saying like, there's a countdown. So, I've got my aunt saying like, yo, we're giving him organic food, we're doing this. So I'm thinking, yo, we're fighting it. But every time I'm going back, it's like, he's becoming like, I don't know, less and less and smaller and smaller. And now I can see it, but I'm still, I don't know, I, I guess the word's naive, innit? Like, you're very hopeful when you're naive, thinking, no, no, no, it's gonna be cool. Because he'd been, to be fair, he'd been saying he was sick for years, but he was undiagnosed. He was ill, but we didn't know.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  When he went to the doctor, he died. Once he got diagnosed, it's a countdown now. So I don't know if mentally something happens there. I don't know how that works, but just watching her, you know, through when he became in, was incontinent, like washing him, bathing him, feeding him, just being there the whole way through. I was just like,

• 10:13Speaker 00

  that to me is, was the real definition of a marriage. That is, you know, um, sickness and health. Do you get what I'm saying? That is death do us part. That was literally till death do us part. And I'm like, I don't know if I'd ever see that level of strength again.

• 10:28Steven Bartlett?

  The other thing that I, really stuck out to me about your childhood, as I was re- reading through your backstory, was that moment when you're nine and a car comes up next to you.

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:36Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me about that. What happened in the, what, what did that teach you?

• 10:39Speaker 00

  At that point, like, Tottenham was warring with a lot of surrounding areas, isn't it? So it was like food fiestas back then, tinted cars rolling through the estate, just looking for whoever they're looking for, but I live in the middle of it. And being young but being tall, and remember back then, when, when, when everyone's warring with each other, like now we have the internet, so everyone knows who everyone is, what everyone looks like, whatever. Back then, nobody didn't. It was just a description, like, he's dark skinned and skinny. Do you get what I'm saying? So they come in looking for a dark skin and skinny guy, but I'm nine. And I'm going shop, and then I remember the car was breezing up to me. And I'm thinking, wow, why is he driving like that? Skids. Winding down the window and then I look in the car, I'm like, wow.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  But it's like, it's just like. Nah, nah, nah, and then drive off. And I just thought, wow, like, what the hell, like? Just thought, imagine if I ran, like, cause you know that for a second I was gonna run, that I was thinking, right, the cars, cause it's driving towards me, I can run that way, you ain't gonna be able to spin around. But I just remember thinking like, I haven't even done anything, do you get what I'm saying? First of all. But then when it stopped and they done that, I was like, let's drive off. And I think that thing there made me feel like,

• 11:52Speaker 00

  it's probably better to be involved than to not.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  At the time. Do you get what I'm saying? Because at the time, I'm not involved. I'm actually just a clean-hearted, good you, I just play football and computer, that's it. Do you get what I'm saying? So when that happened, it made me feel like, wow, that could have happened to me for no reason. Like, I might as well give you a reason. Do you get what I'm saying?

• 12:12Steven Bartlett?

  Someone could have done something.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, something, something could have, like, I could have been shot, whatever they was gonna do. And I think that kind of put a chip on my shoulder. Do you know what I mean? For the next, the next couple of years, which obviously is what led to my mum feeling like, no, you're feeling yourself a bit too much.

• 12:27Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Go and fly the nest. Like, if you don't, you know, if you don't, if they don't push the bird out of the nest, it won't fly. You know, if you're not thrown in the water, you don't have to swim, kind of thing.

• 12:36Steven Bartlett?

  And a lot of men, I mean, this happens not just on the estate, but men that don't grow up in such circumstances, they start using that like bravado as a, as a form of self-defense, but it ends up inflicting self-harm in some way. I mean, that's what you tend to see with a lot of gangs, right? You join for, to defend yourself or to try and fit in, but it leads you down a path of self-harm.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, because you go from.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  I'm doing this to fight back.

• 13:00Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  And then you go from fighting back in the form of defence to offence now.

• 13:05Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Because it's gone from, I'm just defending myself to now I'm out in a club, I'm out somewhere.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  And now you're getting into situations with people that you feel look like you might end up in a situation with. So now it's just happening now.

• 13:19Steven Bartlett?

  It's proactive.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, do you get what I'm saying? Whereas really, if you both were just defending yourselves, then you can be cool to walk past each other or be in the same club at the same time or whatever. I think a lot of like, things being unsaid. Like when things ain't clear, like you're in, just because you're in an environment and you feel, I don't know, you you might not have an issue with anyone in the environment, but because there's no clarity.

• 13:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Because they haven't said, we don't have nothing with you, and you haven't said, we don't have nothing with you. It's just tense.

• 13:49Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's life, right? Relationships, business, communication.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there's just a little tenseness and it's like, why is it tense? And then depending on how the ice breaks, do you get what I'm saying? If it breaks the right way, it's cool. If it breaks the wrong way, then it's just erupting into something that didn't even exist, to be fair, in the first place.

• 14:08Steven Bartlett?

  And at that age, what did you want to be when you grew up? What was the aspiration?

• 14:15Speaker 00

  Probably wanted to be Ian Wright.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Realised early on that ain't gonna happen. Um.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  I liked music. I didn't wanna be a musician though.

• 14:26Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 14:28Speaker 00

  It didn't seem realistic.

• 14:30Steven Bartlett?

  You didn't know anyone in your tribal circle that had gotten there?

• 14:33Speaker 00

  It was like, the musicians were like.

• 14:35Steven Bartlett?

  Other people.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Jay-Z.

• 14:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Or, do you know what I'm saying? Tupac or Nas, like, that was somewhere else. So it's like, yeah, you can do it for fun. So we do it for fun. We write whatever, record on tapes, blah, blah, blah. But I never thought like, this could be a career, I could make money from this, I could live in this space. So I guess like, I was into trying to understand what else happens outside my estate. Cause, cause also what happens.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  You feel like your family, your friends become your family in the estate. The sweet shop is basically a supermarket. Um, so you don't need to leave. You just move from house to house, then we're all outside, we play football, then it's nine P M. We buy ice bowls, then everyone goes home, we do it again tomorrow. And you just end up in a cycle of that. But then someone told me, actually, I saw one of my friends in an advert, a guy from my estate called Frank. Yeah, he was in a Lexus advert as a kid. And I was like, when he, when he come on the telly, I was like, mom, that's Francis. Like, he lives over there. I said, Frank, when I saw him, I said, Frank, how did you get in the advert? He was like, I've got an agent. I was like, is it? How did you get agent? He's like, there's a newspaper that comes out every Thursday called The Stage.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  So he's like, buy The Stage, it costs a pound, but it just shows you so much different things. So I used to buy that newspaper, yeah, just to see like what else can happen, like what else is there? And it used to be like auditions or whatever. To be fair, I'd never really go to any, but I think like, I was just intrigued about like what else exists? Like what other people are doing? Then I'd see something about the Brit School, I'm like, wow, I wonder what that is like? All these things that we don't know nothing about, Anna Shears, I used to see Sylvia Young, all these things in the paper. But there was always a price, a cost, like sign up for this or pay for the portfolio or whatever. And obviously at like eleven, twelve, thirteen, you can't, you know, I mean, my mom, she's not gonna, there's, there's too many of us to ask for that.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  We need school uniform first and foremost, everything else is secondary. So, um, yeah.

• 16:36Steven Bartlett?

  How old were you when you decided that you were gonna like record a mixtape and like publish it and try and sell it? Two thousand and six when it came out, wasn't it?

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, two thousand and six, Learn From My Mixtape came out. That's my first C D, twenty four songs on there.

• 16:54Steven Bartlett?

  I tried getting it on Spotify, I couldn't.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  No, it's not, it's not, I need to, you know, I need to get it up on there. People ask, but I think there might be one or two American beats. So that's why we're struggling with that. But, um, yeah, man, I think at that point, I'd been on pirate radio, I'd been on Heat FM.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  And I was just like, then I became obsessed. I was obsessed. I was just like, I need to go studio as much as I can. Everything I was doing was to put into being able to record. And then once I had seven or eight CDs with about nine songs on each. I was like, right, I've got like fifty, sixty something songs. Like, this is mad. Maybe I should just do do a project. So then I came up with the idea, learn from my mixtape, because I wanted it to be like, quite educational. Like, not in a school way, but in a streets way. Like, I always wanted to like, educate the youth and let them know there was other ways of doing things, kind of thing. That's always been my thing. So, yeah, came up with that, made that project. The funny thing about that CD is that

• 17:57Speaker 00

  you give it to the guy to press up, pay your six or seven hundred pound, and then he he presses it up, but they're, back then, they were so long. You're ringing him every Friday. Is it, has it arrived? Nah, it's not arrived yet. Ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing. So the day my son's born, I'm in the hospital, I get a phone call, and it's the guy, and I'm like, so the baby's born, healthy, everything's cool. Answer the phone, he's like, the CDs are here, come now. Because he's not, I, I don't know, I don't remember if it was a Friday, but he wasn't in tomorrow, he wasn't in for the next two days. So it was like, come now. So obviously, I'll come off the phone. I'm in the hospital, holding my son.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  So like, his mum's looked at me, she's like, who was that? I was like, yeah, man, the CDs are here. But she knows that this is my thing. So this is like, but this is the thing, when you make music, you're obsessed, bro. You're obsessed. So I'm like, looking at my watch, like, you get upset, and she's like, then she just looks at me and she goes, go and get the CDs, man. Just go and get the CDs. I'm like, thank you, man. I didn't give a fuck, my son. Jumped in the car, ripped a crate, and picked up a thousand CDs. A thousand? Thousand. You got them all in the car? Thousand, all in the car, bro. Thousand. Like, seats, two of us in the car, seats down.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Cut, like, thousand. It takes up bare space as well. Got them back. So then, like, just put them in the hallway, went and picked them up, brought her home, and she was just like, you need to get these out of this house. Because now there's a buggy, there's Moses basket, there's all of this stuff. I'm just like, I'm just feeling mad, bro.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  That was just, it was just fun and exciting, man. It was like, it was like my life was born, was reborn, my son was born. I just felt like a new energy. I was re-energized and I just, I just wanted to go, man. So it was like, spent the next couple of weeks doing the sailing return.

• 19:56Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, so you take them to a shop. If they don't sell them, they go back.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Bro, and at that point, I don't care about the money, bro. I just wanna be heard. Like, I wouldn't. Someone drove past me and they were playing my C D, bro. You can't tell me I'm not Jay Z back then. When I heard that, and I don't know the person, normally you know them. I'm looking, I'm like, rah, he doesn't even know it's me. He's driven past me. I'm like, yeah, this is like, this is happening. We're growing, we're growing. So, yeah, just re-energize, man. And sailing return is long because you're no one. The, the shop guy, he sho- his shelves are full. So he's like, yeah, we'll take five. I'm like, my guy, I have a thousand of these. Take fifty, bro. I won't even come back for the money. I swear to you, bro, like, I'm cool, bro. He's like, nah, nah, give me ten. Bro, you know what I'm doing? Just to get rid of them. I'll buy the ten back, yeah?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  And then he'll call me and he'll be like, yeah, the ten went fast, you know? That I'll make someone else do it. Don't lie. What do you want? You want the fifty now? Yeah, yeah, bring the fif- yeah, we've got fifty for you coming.

• 20:54Steven Bartlett?

  So you'd get friends to go in and buy the CDs?

• 20:56Speaker 00

  Do you get what I'm saying? So now I can go and give him fifty. That's half a box out, bro. This was taking up so much space. So, yeah, doing that. Oxford Circus, Birmingham, Cridan, like, all the music shops. And, yeah, it was different time, innit?

• 21:11Steven Bartlett?

  When you were running around, sh- on those CDs, what were you doing for money? Cause I'm sure that wasn't, that wasn't covering the bills, right?

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Nah, me and my, my manager, he's my manager now. He was just my, he's always been my brethren, like, my right hand. We just, every, every penny we made from anything, we just put it together and put it in this and put it in this. So it was like.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  Sometimes we'd go back for the sale and return as well. So we'd get a little drips and drabs there, this and that. And just literally just sharing money. It's like we had one bank account, if I'm honest, like it was, we were just sharing like anything. What do we need? Then we needed to do a video. How much does a video cost? Two thousand five hundred. Whoa. All right, cool. But now my, um, at the time, like my son's mom's like, yo, we need buggy. Let's say we need a buggy, but it's like, I need to do a video. It was like, I felt like I was always.

• 22:04Steven Bartlett?

  Trying to decide between a buggy or a video.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, bro. Like you feel so guilty, but you, but you know, it made me understand. It made me understand. Like the, the, the need and the obsession and the love I have for this thing because I'm actually always comparing it. Like, it sounds mad to hear me say, but it's just, when it's your purpose, it's your purpose, bro. Every single month, we're growing, we're growing, we're growing. It's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And when it gets to that point, we'll have how many buggies? Do you get what I'm saying? We have the best cup, everything. It'll, it'll be able to spin. Well, you get what I'm saying? They'll put the cup, we'll put the baby to sleep, whatever. You know what I mean? SMA champagne.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  So, yeah, but I, that was like, that was when I was understanding that you've, like, you've actually got some kind of obsession or some deep rooted love for this thing that should probably not be like that. Do you know what I'm saying? Like what you're weighing up against the other thing. It just, but it just was, man.

• 23:00Steven Bartlett?

  How long were you in that phase of like trying to, like trying to give people your CDs and like how, how in years or months, how long was that, that phase? Where like people weren't, cause I was watching the Kanye Netflix documentary recently.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Cold, yeah.

• 23:12Steven Bartlett?

  It reminded me of that, that you got that young man who believed in himself more than anyone else did. You see that scene where he plays like.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Bro, it all, um, all falls down.

• 23:20Steven Bartlett?

  All falls down and she's not paying attention.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  She goes on the phone.

• 23:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  She's on the phone.

• 23:24Steven Bartlett?

  She's intentionally trying to tell him to piss off by like ignoring him. It reminds me of that, like, so how long were you in that phase of your journey? Just like selling them CDs?

• 23:34Speaker 00

  I think, so if this first CD came out two thousand and six, I reckon since like two thousand and three, I'd been giving out music. But what I, what I was always very clever at, like I always wanted. Everyone to like my music. So I had different CDs with different songs on. So I'd have like a CD with ten grime songs.

• 23:53Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  A CD with ten love songs, a CD with five songs about trying to turn your life around. I just had different CDs. And what I'd do, I'd give the CD to each person as to what I think they would like.

• 24:06Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  So I give the man them that one. But what was happening is that I gave a man that. And then I give his sister a different one. But his sister was like, yeah, but my brother's got one that's got different songs on. But I'm like, I don't think you'd like that. So it was like, I was always just, I had music, enough music to please everyone. But then everyone wanted the other songs as well. So that kind of made me decide that, you know what? If you put everything on twenty four songs, then maybe they can all be centered to this disc. And it can start there and it it worked, yeah.

• 24:36Steven Bartlett?

  Two thousand three, two thousand six, you were trying to move them CDs.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 24:39Steven Bartlett?

  Mixtape comes out, two thousand six.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:41Steven Bartlett?

  But what what were you using as metrics to figure out if it was actually working?

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Bro, if if I heard my song on the radio, we was winning. Every time I heard it, I was like, cool. And my manager, we are ying and yang. Like, I'm all creative and this guy is all genius in another way. So he would be like, I'd go to his house and he'd be like, all right, cool. We're going to this show in Nottingham.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  These people are performing. When you see this guy, he thinks he knows you, yeah? Because I've messaged him off your account and you know, I've had a conversation. So just make sure you say hello to him. Da da da da da. I'm just like, how do you even, how do you even know who's who? But he'd already engineered some idea. And so then we we we were like proper, like the the first station to proper, like really show us mad love was like One Extra. So it's like DJ Cameo, A$AP, like all these, Ras Quami, all these, Twin B, like all these people were just showing mad love, like, come in, man, do an interview. And like, I like to think I'm likable. People like to conversate. So we're talking and then this guy would introduce me to a producer. Then the producer would introduce me to a next person.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Then we found out about press and P R. We started working with a guy called Charlie at Visions. And he was like, yeah, you pay us five hundred pound a month and we can get you in magazines. Like, wow, magazines, crazy. Like, it was just like, everything was just. One person away. So each person introduced us to a different person and that's how I'm, how I was measuring the growth. So I'm like, I can come back and I'm like, yo man, I just met this guy, man. He, he shoots videos or I met this guy, he does P R. I met this guy, he's a photographer, like, and she was, in her head, she's probably thinking, oh, shut up.

• 26:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Like, what's a photographer gonna do? But I'm like, it's another step. Each step, each step, each step. One hand is washing the other and we will wash the whole body, I promise. Do you know what I mean? Like.

• 26:35Steven Bartlett?

  In that, in that phase, you're, you're starting to get these radio plays and stuff, which is kind of like a sign for you. It's that reinforcement, that thing, you're moving in the right direction.

• 26:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:42Steven Bartlett?

  Was there, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot, but was there a moment when even your, your partner at the time said to you, do you know what? I think, or you could see it in, because sometimes they don't say it, you can see it in their face.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:54Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe when they hear it on the radio, they see, you know.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I always knew that I was ticking her off, man. Like, in that, in just in that, not in everyone, in that, in that aspect. Because even like, at them times I used to write at home.

• 27:06Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Bro, I don't know if you've lived with a musician or been around a musician, bro. That beat is on loop for hours. You get what I'm saying? And all I would hear, like, when I pull it back, it's just, like, as if you do it again, like, and I just was like, you know what, I need to just start working in the studio, like, because this, like, it's not fair. Like, it's, when you find your passion, yeah, you find your calling, bro. You're, you're not fair to no one. You're only fair to yourself. Do you know what I'm saying? You're not fair to anyone. Everyone, everyone comes second, bro. Everyone, and it's not intentional, it just, it just is what it is. So me thinking that I'm spending time with her because I'm writing in the house, even though I'm not talking to her, the song's just on loop and I'm writing, I'm thinking I'm spending time. I ain't spending time.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Do you get what I'm saying? That's just being present. So it's like, but then it's like, in my head, I'm thinking, yeah, but if I'm in a studio for eight hours, it's better that I'm.

• 27:59Steven Bartlett?

  At home.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that I'm at home. But it's, it's actually all about me, bro. It was only all about me, my calling, and making this, making this music. This is my, like, I wake up every day, I think music. Before I go to sleep, I think music. I used to have a, a dream that happened every time. And in the dream, I'm in the studio and I'm writing a verse. And I'd wake up and I'm like, I can never remember the verse. And I'm trying to remember, trying to remember. One day I woke up, I'm like, I need, I had a pen and paper by my bed, I left it there. I wrote out the verse that I wrote in my dream. I was like, bro, this is like, to me, I'm like, I'm believing in this now. I'm like, this is, this has to be fate or something like this has to be engineered by someone higher than you, man.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  Like from your writing in your sleep, literally. So just, and just going and going and going.

• 28:49Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. I want to get up to the point when you released Black and White in two thousand and eleven.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:54Steven Bartlett?

  What happens between that mixtape coming out in two thousand and six to two thousand and eleven? Is that, what are the most significant moments or pivotal moments where, where things took a, a turn in a good direction?

• 29:04Speaker 00

  Okay, like more, more exposure and little things happening here and there, like MTV asked us to do something for Black History Month. It was like a freestyle that was strong because it showed people I could write, perform, stick to topic. Then One Extra gave us an award for getting, I think one of our records was the most played.

• 29:27Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  So it was like, that was quite cool, like Most Street Heat, that was DJ Semtex.

• 29:31Steven Bartlett?

  Is that punctuation?

• 29:33Speaker 00

  I think it was punctuation, yeah, punctuation, getting a lot more bookings. And Twin B, Twin B from One Extra, um, always having conversations with him, like he just gave me an understanding of the game on, on the other side. Because at the time he was working with, at Ministry and he just had so many gems and he made me understand. Cause I used to think like, why am I not signed? Like, why was I not signed? Why am I not signed? Am I not good? Or it's not about good or great, it's about timing and it's about what can a label help you do? How can a label help you be bigger? What do you need to achieve before you step into a label?

• 30:14Speaker 00

  So with all these conversations, you know, doing loads of collaborations as well.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  And then Richard Antwee and Twin B, they form a record label called Levels. And they're like, we wanna sign you, man. And I'm like, brah, okay, like, what happens now? Kind of thing. It's like, now you need a lawyer, now you need, you know, all these other things. And it was just like, once it got to that point, I knew that it was serious. Because Richard Antwee had worked with Adele, so many different people, do you get what I'm saying? And I knew that this guy was serious, twin music lover. We'd had endless conversations on the phone about music. And they had their situation with Ministry of Sound, so they were like a subsidiary of Ministry of Sound. So it was like, signed to Levels, like, you know, and Ministry as well.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  And I just, I just knew that that was the right thing to do at the time.

• 31:08Steven Bartlett?

  When you get that news that they wanna sign you, what's Ashley saying? Do you come home and you're, ha, we done it?

• 31:18Speaker 00

  Um, I don't think I do, you know? I think, I guess by that point, just me being about me, the relationships not where it could have been or where it should have been, do you know what I mean? So I think by that time, we're already.

• 31:32Steven Bartlett?

  Going our separate ways.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, kinda drifting apart. But, um, yes, I didn't get to, to kinda have that, that thing. But I think, I think she's, you know, she's happy for me, always been happy for me, always want, always knew that this was what I needed to do. She knew that it was a need and not a want. Because of the things, what, everything I was weighing it up against, she knew that this is a need, like, this guy needs to do this, like, he needs it, so, yeah.

• 32:01Steven Bartlett?

  And then black and white.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  And then black and white, yeah. So initially, we signed for a single, which was Tractor.

• 32:09Steven Bartlett?

  That was my ringtone, two thousand and twelve, yeah, that was my ringtone. I don't even know what phone it was, but it was my ringtone when I first, I did one day at university before I dropped out, and that was my, my ringtone from day, day one.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  My guy.

• 32:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  We had that record and Twin said to me, when I put the verses down, he was like, this song's gonna change your life.

• 32:27Steven Bartlett?

  Really? He said that?

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I was like, I don't know how you know that, but you're my guy. So I'm believing in you. And I'm like, I just didn't know what would happen next. So I'm still going back to them times when I'd go to the, the record shops, yeah, and kind of.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Buy back the CDs to give more. So when I'm out in the club, if they're playing the tune, or they're not playing the tune, I'm making sure they play the song. You get what I'm saying? Like, I'm saying, yeah, what, what does it take? What? All the drinks? Cool. I'll order drinks. Play that song when the drinks come. Did it like, I'm making sure that this song is being heard. We're trying everything. We're not trying to, we're, our thing was always floor to ceiling. We'd say we'd make sure we'd covered everything, floor to ceiling. And then, yeah, bam, it goes in the charts and literally everything changed. Everything changed after that.

• 33:15Steven Bartlett?

  Take me through that process. So it goes in the charts and then you start just, what's it like? Cause I've, you know, I never had a, I never had a hit.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  Bro, it's like, you get throughout that week. So the song, say like the songs available to buy on Sunday was back then. So Monday morning, like the labels kind of knows the numbers in it. So they're kind of like,

• 33:40Speaker 00

  you're number eight. I'm like, rah, number eight. They're like, yeah, but we'll catch, we'll catch seven and six. Maybe five. Then the next day it's like, yeah, you're number six. I'm like, what the hell? Like, and it's just going higher. Then it gets to four, I think. And it goes back to five and it's like, it's five and it's like, rah, we've got, we want to hold in, in, in, in the top five. And it's just, I don't know. I just think at that time, yeah, you just, you, you almost step into a vehicle and then it just starts moving. And it's like, you know, like when you're driving through an era, you're looking out the window, you're just seeing things and you're just seeing people and, but you're just moving. It just, it was just moving, bro. Like, it was just moving. It was moving. And then

• 34:26Speaker 00

  you're doing Glastonbury and then you're doing Wireless and you're doing V Festival and you're doing, everything was just moving. Everything was, everything happened so fast that I don't think, I don't think I even stopped to take it in at that time. And then it, and then it was. Cool, you done it once, that was one single, now we wanna do an album, what's the next single? It's like, now you've got to do it again. And it's like, I didn't even really know how I done it in the first place, if I'm honest, like, do you get what I'm saying? This is a cool song, sounded good, and it worked. And then it was just like, okay, make a second single. And then made a second single. While making the album and it was just, it was just moving, man. Everything was just, it was, it was, it happens. You know when they say like, you, you wait your whole life for it to happen overnight? Literally waited

• 35:11Speaker 00

  whole life for it to happen overnight. And it, and once it happened, it just didn't stop. It just kept, the ball kept rolling, man.

• 35:17Steven Bartlett?

  Were you prepared for it mentally, I don't know, socially? Were you prepared for that train to pick you up and, and drag you off into your dream like that?

• 35:29Speaker 00

  I don't think so, no. But I think luckily, the only thing I wanted to do still at that time was make music. I think if I wanted to, I can see like how like, you know, like an artist has a hit and then just all over the papers and just getting involved in different things. I can see how that can happen.

• 35:48Steven Bartlett?

  Temptation, right?

• 35:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, because you end up in other places other than where you should be. But for me, it was still always about the studio. Like, I'd go raving, but I'd go raving at one o'clock because the engineer is tired or the producer's tired and we finish. And I, I don't have the best night's sleep. I don't sleep too well. So it's one o'clock, yeah, I'd go out. But then tomorrow it was studio, like it was always, I was always in and locked in, so I didn't veer from that. So I think

• 36:16Speaker 00

  in a sense, I wasn't prepared for one side of it, but for what I needed to do, I was prepared for. And I was serious about my half, my half of the deal, yeah.

• 36:24Steven Bartlett?

  And then, so that album becomes a huge success, um, a real breakthrough moment for you.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 36:29Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and then obviously when the album's done, you have another pressure, right? Which is the expectation of that album, right?

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Well, go again. Do you get what I'm saying? Like flip a coin ten times and get heads, yeah? Alright, cool. Now do another ten. Do you get what I'm saying? It's literally like, how am I gonna?

• 36:49Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, get heads every time.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Every time. Do you get what I'm saying? Get heads. Go and do it. Well, you done it. Do it. Go. For me, like, making music is the part that I'm in control of. I never feel pressured about that, never. Because I have, I have what I have to say, I feel what I feel. And I'm gonna pour all of that into music. I'm gonna pour all of that into that album. No problem. I just think at that time, what was getting tricky was Ministry was kinda happy that we'd had three top five singles and was kinda just, you know, more as a business, more happy to stay in that domain. Like, yeah, let's just churn out the hits. And I think

• 37:30Speaker 00

  after Black and White and all of that and all the thing like, you know, just I think I had a lot of frustration in me and it was almost

• 37:43Speaker 00

  it's almost the side of my life which I saw my uncle and my dad and all of that talking about the police. Like that side of me was coming out. Whereas I'd always mentioned it in my music, I just felt like I I wanted, I had something else to say. Do you know what I'm saying? Everything happened with Mark Duggan and all of that. And I was like, I need to speak about what's going on. And I think it was a bit of a difference of opinion. Do you know what I'm saying? Ministry of Sound wanted, these kind of songs ain't hit records. So it was a bit of a bit of friction. So we had to work our way, you know, around that. And it was just about, you know, getting to the point where we could release that album, which was growing over life. And it was just, for me, it was, it was important that I released that record, man.

• 38:28Steven Bartlett?

  And following Black and White, when you look back on how you reacted and, you know, that tension with the label and stuff like that. In your maturity and wisdom now, is there, do you wish you'd behaved differently following the release of that album and its success? Is there something you wish you would, you know, with the wonder of hindsight?

• 38:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, change. Nah.

• 38:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Nah, because I wasn't like, I wasn't aggressive. I just liked to understand. I like clarity. And I think what can happen in the industry is Not everybody wants to be crystal clear. Whereas it's like, if you're crystal clear with it and say, you know what, if we can get another don't go and another tractor and another blackout, then whatever. So it's like, all right, cool. Then you understand an assignment of what you're after. But it's like, if you're not being crystal clear, then it kind of leaves you in limbo. So you're sending in songs.

• 39:23Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 39:23Speaker 00

  And it's just like.

• 39:24Steven Bartlett?

  And they're not being clear about what.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like the feedback's a bit like, don't think this one's a single. It's like, say it was a single, just said it was a song, like, kind of thing, do you know what I mean? So it was like, yeah, just trying to gain understanding. I think that was what my frustration was, was like, just getting an understanding. But Twin B, obviously Twin B and Richard Anson always kept it 100, always was just like, look, if we can have, if there's any moments where we can, I think they're like, you need to say what you need to say in it. Do you know what I'm saying? And if them other moments arise, we'll find them and you'll engineer them. You're the best at doing that. You know, when you're comfortable to do it, you do it. Do you get what I'm saying? There ain't no pressure coming from our way. And I came up with six words, which was, um,

• 40:05Speaker 00

  written within that, within that space and within that time. And I was like, all right, cool. I've got one. The one you want. It's the one you want, kind of thing. Um, so yeah, but I think with hindsight, I didn't like, I didn't fly off the handle. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't get angry. I'm not, I didn't get aggressive. It was pointless.

• 40:23Steven Bartlett?

  Did you stray away from your like, your principal passion of making music during that phase? Did you, did you find yourself like not showing up obsessed in the studio in the same way after that hit? Because sometimes when people reach the mountain top, they, they, they lose a bit of orientation and motivation sometimes. And, you know, there's other temptations. Now you've got a bit of money, so you don't need to be, the hunger's slightly different.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Nah.

• 40:45Steven Bartlett?

  Nah?

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Nah, love it. Like, I think for me, always wanting to be the best rapper, always wanted to say the sickest things, the things that people are like, wow, how did you get to that? Do you get what I'm saying? Like. So that that never left me. So like, there was always freestyles, there was always, you know, always raps, always verses, you know, collaborations, like, at the time, like, my manager, Zion, used to say to me, like, he used to be like, bro, sometimes you've got to make something make sense. Like, these people are asking you for a feature, they want to pay you twenty bags a verse or ten bags a verse, and you're saying no, and you're bludgeoning, round the corner is rapping, you're giving a verse for free. Like, we've got a, I'm not saying don't do the verse

• 41:28Speaker 00

  for free, but I'm saying, you get what I'm saying, there's some over here that make, that verse makes sense as well. So it's like, also as well, navigation and just being like, oh, yeah, yeah, you're, you're, you're right, kind of thing. And just some things work well for positioning, do you know what I mean? As well, but just always, yeah, just always wanting to be the best artist, man, just always wanting to have the best album. I think that's something that's never left me. And I think if that does leave you as an artist, that's probably when it's like, you know, like, when you see Mike Tyson in the ring at the end, and he's fighting some guy you haven't heard of, and he's just mashing him up, and you're just like, Mike, man, do you get what I'm saying? Like, Mike, five years ago, you would have finished him, but it's like, Mike's not Mike,

• 42:14Speaker 00

  do you get what I'm saying? Mike ain't got that. You don't love it anymore. Do you get what I'm saying? The love's gone, you can see it in his eyes. And I feel like, if that happens to you as a musician, it's, yeah, it's not, it's not good to kind of like mess up your legacy, man, like.

• 42:28Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that's always made you stand out, even when I listen to your Fire in the Booth, and I listen to all of them, I have them on replay, I actually played one last night to my girlfriend, I was like, Rich, it's coming to us. I played the one you did with, is it Aval?

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Avalino, yeah.

• 42:40Steven Bartlett?

  Avalino, yeah, yeah, I played that one a lot. Is the subject matter of what you write about is, isn't about buying Rolexes and fast cars. Now, as a young black man myself, I tend to feel a sense of disappointment when I go on Instagram and I see, like, the new school of, like, hip hop artists all putting their hands in and showing their roleies, because for me, it's like leading our people astray, in the sense, because I would like them to show their investment portfolio, or their, the equity they have in businesses and stuff, because, like, you know, what's your stance on that? I actually was gonna put some stuff on my story the other day, because I saw

• 43:24Steven Bartlett?

  I don't wanna name names because it's not about individuals, it's about a culture.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 43:28Steven Bartlett?

  I saw some rappers that actually follow me, some big, big hip hop U K rappers that follow me. All like showing off the material things. It really disappoints me because I know there's thousands, in this case, there's eight hundred thousand people that follow this guy. And they're now gonna aspire to buy Gucci before they invest their money or put it away. What's your thoughts on this?

• 43:50Speaker 00

  I think we've, growing up, yeah, I think like we were so like bedazzled by the American rap culture. And we'd always seen them have things, have jewellery, have all these things and whatever. And I think even myself, at a point, for me, that was like a trophy or a measure of success. Do you get what I'm saying? It's like the Rolex was a measure of success. And I, and I think like, like I've heard you say yourself as well, it's like, once you get it, it's like, doesn't really make you feel.

• 44:27Steven Bartlett?

  In size.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it doesn't really give you nothing like that. And I think we haven't had, we haven't had the luxury of of information.

• 44:37Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  And I think information comes from people who look like you and people who have been through it, had success and are able to tell you. So now I'm in that position, I'm able to talk to an eighteen year old and be like, yeah, man, you can get that, but at the same time, make sure you've got that.

• 44:54Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  One of the dumbest things I'd ever done in my life, I don't think I've said this anywhere, is, so obviously when I um, out of my mum's, got a council flat. Bro, when I signed my deal, I left my house. I left the whole house and just went, left the council, left, just left it. But people at the time were saying to me, yo, man, buy it, like, why don't you buy it? And I'm like, I don't, I'm not gonna live here. Like, it was in Tottenham, I'm like, I'm not gonna live here, I'm gonna, you get what I'm saying? And they were like, no, you don't. Just buy it. But the people that were telling me to buy it didn't own a house.

• 45:25Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  So I'm like.

• 45:27Steven Bartlett?

  What do you know?

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, what do you know? Like, I live in Princess Park Manor. Do you get what I'm saying now? Like, this is gated community. Like, this is way better than this, bro. That, that was a very stupid mistake. Should have bought that, that'd be my first one on the ladder. Do you get what I'm saying? They give you a discount, bloody, bloody, blah, whatever. But.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  Even though I had the information, it wasn't coming from a success story. It wasn't coming from someone that had done it before.

• 45:55Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  Do you get what I'm saying? So now I'm the first one that's like, yo, where are you gonna rent? Like, think about what you're doing. Because then even myself, like, I was in Princess Park Manor forever. And even in there, like, I wasn't ever, like, thinking about buying property. And they were like, don't you wanna buy the one that you're in? I was like, nah, I'm not gonna be here forever. Like, in, in my eyes, property was you buy it to live, not buy it to let.

• 46:22Steven Bartlett?

  And you can't move.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, do you get what I'm saying? So in my head, I'm thinking, no, I'm gonna buy where I'm gonna live. But I'm like, I never really understood that. No, you can buy and move and just own it and then rent it yourself. Do you get what I'm saying? I didn't really understand the, the principle of that. So, um, I understand, I understand why it happens. I understand why all the, we, we want all these trophies. I get it. But I think it's, it's about people like myself who can now conversate with the, with the younger lot and be like, look, man. Like, I get it, it looks nice, but, bro, like, this, music is Game of Thrones, bro. Music is game, you see Game of Thrones, they kill the main character, bro. Do you get what I'm saying? They don't mind doing that. Music is Game of Thrones, bro.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  You're Michael Jackson on Monday, you're T O Jackson on Tuesday, bro. Like, and then you can be Michael again by Sunday. You get what I'm saying? Like, the mu, it's musical chairs, bro. Like, you have to understand, we're not always gonna be number one forever. So just make sure you're, you're, you're buying a foundation for your foundation, man.

• 47:26Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:26Steven Bartlett?

  When you had, you know, your first big breakthrough moment, at the time, did you somewhere in your mind think that this was, meant that you would be number one forever? Is there a part of you that goes, oh, we've done it now in terms of like,

• 47:37Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 47:38Steven Bartlett?

  now I know this, the, uh, the equation?

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:41Steven Bartlett?

  A bit of complacency, maybe?

• 47:43Speaker 00

  I kinda think, like, the more you understand, because obviously, at, at that time, there's a, there's a route to get to number one. And it's like, your song's launched by Mr. Jam or Annie Mac. And then the pre-order's out. And then you go for playlisting or Radio One, One Extra, Capital. And there's like a, there's a route that puts you.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  On the pitch.

• 48:08Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, to get it. So there's a root, so. But the problem is. You can't believe in the root.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  More than you believe in the fruit.

• 48:22Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  So you can't think that. This root can work with whatever fruit you give it. Do you get what I'm saying? You still, still has to be an apple, bro. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, it still has to be fruitful, it still has to be a, a record, a sick record. Do you get what I'm saying? So then. You know, you, you, you, like, we've had some records that I thought, yeah, like, there's one or two that I thought, like, the root can carry it. And then when the root don't carry it, you realise, like, nah, this, it's not work every time. You don't, once again, you don't, you don't just.

• 48:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  You don't get ten heads in a row, bro.

• 48:57Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  You get what I'm saying? You get tells one time and then it's, and then it's how you bounce back from that.

• 49:01Steven Bartlett?

  Have you had to talk to me about bouncing back from that then? Cause you know, even as a fan of yours, like, I'll play, I'll play records of yours when they drop.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 49:09Steven Bartlett?

  And I'll be like, I'll say, say to my boys, I'm like, we've got this little chat on WhatsApp. I'll say, this one is a fucking, like, this one is, um, I'm like, this one's gonna be, right? And then it might not get there and another one might.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 49:20Steven Bartlett?

  You must have that all the time. And how do you manage the expectation of, like, building, creating a project? You believing that it's X, Y and Z. I mean, I do that with these podcasts as well, you just never know, like, which episode's gonna bang, right?

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 49:32Steven Bartlett?

  And then putting it out there. And that bit being out of your control. How does that feel? Like, and have you had moments like that where you've created something and put it out there and you go, what?

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, you have to understand that that's the side that we're not in control of. Do you get what I'm saying? Like.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  And as an artist, just. Make it for you. Make it for you, put your best foot forward, but make it for you. Because. If I make a song. That I think is rubbish, but I think everyone's gonna like, yeah? And I put a song out, everybody likes it, it goes to number one. I now have to perform this song.

• 50:08Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  This song is in my discography, this is in my catalogue, like. My great, great, great grandkids are gonna hear this song. Do you get what I'm saying? And not even have had a conversation with me. That's gonna be their representation of their great, great, great, great, great grandfather. Be proud of your art, man. Do you get what I'm saying? Be proud of it. So for me, it's like, I put my blood, sweat, tears and skin in my album. When it comes out, if they like it.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  If they don't like it.

• 50:41Speaker 00

  What can I, I can't, I can't do anything more than I done. And I, and I put my best foot forward. And I think you have to live by that, man. Cause you either, you, you, you either have the hit that you don't like, or you put out the record that you don't like, and it's not a hit. So now you've got, now you're wrestling back to get back to where you was for something you didn't even like anyway. Do you get what I'm saying? Just put your best foot forward, man.

• 51:05Steven Bartlett?

  And stay true to yourself.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, stay true to yourself, man. Because it's your, this is your legacy. Like, me now, I try and look at my. Like, it all made sense to me when I started seeing my career from the end till today. And I'm like, what, what, what navigates me is will I be happy with this at the end? So I make a song today and I'm listening to the tune and I'm like, will I be happy with this at the end? Yeah, it can work for today then. But if I feel like at the end, I might feel like, ooh. I don't think you should have put that one out. It's not worth it. It's not worth it. It's not worth it, bro.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, what, what we got, what we got, how many? We get eighty years, maybe now, whatever. You'd like, your legacy can, can triple that, bro. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, have the right one. Have the right one. You've got, you're in control of that. That's what you are in control of.

• 51:59Steven Bartlett?

  And you've had a taste of the like, the empty nature of like fame and like people writing about you every single second and people running up and falling and all this stuff. You've tasted that. So what, what have you learned about what that means? Being on Dragon's Den now, I get it a little bit more. So I get people coming up to me and stuff and I'm in the early stages of like figuring out what it means to, you know, like have Daily Mail reporters standing outside the house here and taking photos of me and my girlfriend when we walk out and I'm trying to understand what this attention means. Is it something I can use? Does it make me feel good? What is it?

• 52:32Speaker 00

  It it it didn't make me feel good, man. I didn't, that's one thing I've I've always wanted to be in the shadows. Like, I've always not wanted that part of it. Some people understand how to use it, though. Do you get what I'm saying? Because say, for example, you're you're designing clothing. And it's like, every time they shoot you, they're putting it in a magazine. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, you're being you're being mass exposed and your clothing is being mass exposed. But it's like, if you don't have.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  If you don't wish for that, if you don't desire for that. Then it's like, I I feel like it's it was useless for me being in the front of certain magazines for

• 53:11Speaker 00

  for nothing, like, nothing artistic.

• 53:13Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Do you get what I mean? And I know people say, like, any publicity is good publicity. I'm like, sometimes you can just be famous for nothing. And no one wants to be the guy that's like the most famous person in the world and no money. Do you know what I mean? Or like, not not and I don't say money, like, to be rich. I just mean, like, everyone knows who you are and everywhere you're walking, you're stopping and having a conversation, taking a picture, taking a this, taking a that, taking a that. But like, your thing's not in order. Like, you're not gonna feel good being that person. So like, I just, yeah, I never I never really liked it, man. I never liked it, man. I was the one, I was hiding from the pats, man, all the time.

• 53:52Steven Bartlett?

  In your come up, did you ever experience what they call, like, imposter syndrome? Walking into rooms and feeling like, what the fuck am I doing here? Or being in situations and going, like, I don't know if I deserve this, that voice inside.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  For a short period of time. But you know who made me overcome that? Richard Antwee. Like, he he passed away, but he's he's such a champion. This guy would walk, he walks into any meeting fearlessly. Any, like, you could be sitting down with the head of HMV or and he's gonna tell them, yeah, you need to take twenty thousand of our CDs and da da da da da. And you're just like, rah, like, you're just, like, he made me feel like.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  You're you, bro. Like, you're gold. You're the gold as well, you know, you're gold, bro. Like, don't now walk into that room and because you think everything in here is gold, become silver. No, no, no, I'm gold as well. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think being around him and then that drip down to my manager, Zion as well. And he's got that thing as well where, bro, we were like, we were having like, I remember, I remember we were, um. We done a thing with Luca's Aid, where they put us on like. On the bottles. Yeah, on the bottles, yeah. And I remember like us sitting down, we were like tapping each other. So like, yeah, what do you wanna put on the bottles? Like, yeah, man, we wanna put our estate. Hmm. On the, but I'm thinking they're gonna say no, but they're like, yeah, yeah, that would be sick. Like, yeah, picture of our estate. Yeah, yeah, and what else?

• 55:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, and this and that and that. And I realised, I was like, you can get the things that you think you can't get, you can get. Like, you are the gold as well. There's a reason why Luca's Aid wanna partner up with Retriev2. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, there's a reason. Hmm. And it's like, sometimes we think it's, they're so big, they don't, but they need, it's a, it's a two-way thing. It's a two-way street. So I think, yeah, for a short period of time I did, but then like Zion, Richard, Twin, like, they just, they just made me understand the importance of like. Knowing your worth. Yeah, knowing your worth and just being fearless, man. Just walking into any room as me. Like, and, and. Like, I did feel that as well at certain times, because obviously now we see the festival lineups, like Wireless and all that.

• 56:00Speaker 00

  Like, you see Miss Banks, you see Steph London, you see Getch, you see Giggs, you see, you see so many names. Two thousand and eleven, it wasn't like that, bro. You see Tiny, you might see Chick, you see Wretch. Do you get what I'm saying? It was like, or certain festivals, I'm the only representative of this genre. So it's like, when you're stepping into that. Like, then you're feeling like, if I mess up, like, if I even forget one line of my lyric, they ain't booking no one next year. Do you get what I'm saying? So it's like, then you've got this thing where it's like the fights on where you're fighting for the scene. You know what I mean? And you gotta wear it like a badge of honour. I remember like. Doing Glastonbury and like, the guy who like books the tent like standing on the side or the whatever. I can't remember what festival it was, but it was standing on the side like just asking me bare questions.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  Like, why do you have two drummers? It's just like, bro, I've got electronic sounds on my album. He plays electric, he plays acoustic. Like, so the the music's gonna sound exactly like the record. Oh, how come you set your stage up like this? How come, how come? Like so many questions that I don't feel like you was asking anyone else. You just wanted to check if we knew what we was doing. And at that point, to be fair, no, everyone's shooting in the dark. Do you get what I'm saying? Everyone's, we're all guessing, bro, at that point. We're all shooting in the dark. Just don't be the casualty. Don't be the one that gets hit. That was, that was the theory. So, um, yeah, we just felt our way through. But them times, I did used to feel a little thing. But then afterwards, I was like, nah, man, I'm coming. Like, we're coming. We've got stuff to add. I've got hit records as well. They wanna hear us.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  And then the festival lineup needs to be more diverse. Like, we're ten years after that now, and the festival lineup is more diverse. But I do feel like at that time, if Tiny Temple wasn't turning up, or Chip wasn't doing what he had to do, even Professor Green wasn't doing what he had to do. Do you know what I mean? Like, Tinchy had to do what he had, we had to get it right, and we had to, or I don't know if we'd be here today.

• 57:52Steven Bartlett?

  When you come from the estate, like you do, and you you end up in these like boardrooms and these fancy meetings with these, you know, rich white men in suits.

• 58:03Steven Bartlett?

  What I see in a lot of like young, young people from those, those kind of backgrounds is they kind of walk through life with a bit of a, an expectation that the cards are stacked against them.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:15Steven Bartlett?

  And I, I worry sometimes that that belief, whether it's true or false, it is often true. The belief that the cards are stacked against you can be equally or more harmful than the cards actually being stacked against you.

• 58:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:31Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, the belief of the cards being stacked against you can be the deterrent of you even playing the game.

• 58:36Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Do you get what I'm saying? I don't even wanna deal now. Like, don't deal me in. Like, it's no point. I'm gonna lose anyway. You know what I'm saying? But I don't know what that comes from, but I was fortunate, man. Like, I can't, I can't say it enough. Like, Richard Antwee. Like just, just a G. He was a lawyer, he was a lawyer as well, a music lawyer. So he, he understood that side as well. So he could, he could speak whatever language. Do you get what I'm saying? At, at any table, he could, like, if they started talking about splits and points, he can, he can go there with you. Do you get what I'm saying? So when you're walking into a game with that, bro, you're, you're fearless, bro.

• 59:14Steven Bartlett?

  Green Machine, you started this business with your, um, business partner? And it's, um, now, I believe, the, the largest CBD shop in Europe by number of shops that you have.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, by number of store square feet, they say.

• 59:30Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, by square feet. Tell me about Green Machine.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Green Machine, um, if I'm honest, I'm someone who like, don't believe in paracetamols. I don't like take stuff like that. A mate of mine was always telling me that like he's going into this CBD space. And I'm like, what's CBD? And he's like, it's basically a natural alternative to medicine. So I'm like, okay, he's like, it's gonna be, it's gonna be the future, like, it's gonna be the future. So I'm like, all right, cool. What does it do? He's like, well, people come in, cancer patients, people with MS, people with fibromyalgia, people with lupus, people that can't sleep, people that suffer with severe headaches. Okay, and what does it do for them?

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  It, wouldn't say it cures them, but it helps them manage their illness. So I'm like, all right, cool. So to me, this sounds like paracetamol. Because I don't believe in paracetamol, it don't work on me. So I haven't, I don't need to, I don't take it. I haven't taken it for years. So I'm like, all right, cool. So I go and link him and I get all the products. Yeah, I get all the products. And I give it out to family members. Someone's got fibromyalgia, can you just try it? And just tell me what happens. Like, it's absolutely nothing to do with me, just give me honest feedback. So for headaches, you can't sleep, anxiety, whatever, giving it out, giving it out. Everyone came back and was like.

• 1:00:55Speaker 00

  I couldn't sleep, I'm now sleeping. Or the times when I was having joint problems, I'm rubbing the cream on and I'm okay. So I'm like, all right, cool. I haven't told these people this might potentially be anything to do with me. They're just being honest. So I'm like, all right, cool. What do I have that I can personally try? So I'm like, all right, I can't sleep. So let's try some of those, try some of those, bro, I'm sleeping. I'm like, all right, this is a real thing. So then like, I was like, cool, let me have a conversation with like the actual founder. Yeah, a guy called Paul, just absolute genius in this realm. And I'm like, what's your story?

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  He's like, well, chronic arthritis and he literally like has a cannabis background, but he was using CBD to help manage his pain. And then he was like, well, why can't we, you know, open it as a business and, you know, start, start moving forward and helping people, you know? Um, so, yeah, and then I was just like, I haven't like put a lot of time, focus and money into a lot of other things other than music. And I've always been waiting to find something. But I wanted to find, like, I didn't want to go down a clothing route. Like, I want something that reflects who I am. I'm, I'm an individual who likes to help people. Do you get what I'm saying? Likes a people's person.

• 1:02:23Speaker 00

  And I honestly think like this is like the future of medicine, man. Like, and so hopefully, you know, it will go down the route where it will become prescribed. Like, if you look at, if you, and, and, and for us, it's like, it's about growing the business. We, we're hoping to have like between fifty and seventy five stores within the next three years.

• 1:02:45Steven Bartlett?

  Wow.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  Um, and hopefully if it goes to the point where. It it it does turn into like a former chemist, like the fingers of the chemist. You go there and you're like, oh, I've got a headache. What can I take? They recommend you a thing or I've got itch on my back. You can actually speak to someone and they can tell you, oh, no, no, no. You're better off getting that cream that works better for you. Cool, like we wanna be that kind of version for people that come in because it's it's it's a two way educational street. Cause people are coming in, a lot of people coming with MS, a lot of people coming with cancer. And I'm like, as much as everyone in the stores are equipped to tell them, there's still new things to learn. And there's like still new ideas for different products.

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  And it's just a new space that, you know, I get to to put some focus in. And it's it's it's something that's I think is is honestly gonna benefit people as well.

• 1:03:38Steven Bartlett?

  And we've tried a lot of the products. They're all amazing. This one actually tastes amazing as well, the grapefruit and mint drink. And we went down there earlier, we got some coffees and some other and some of the oils and stuff, the creams that I'm gonna try as well. Super interesting. The other thing that you're involved in, which I think is a fairly new thing, is the Death Jam position. So you're now the creative director there?

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Steven Bartlett?

  That's dope.

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  That is just.

• 1:03:58Steven Bartlett?

  It's mad.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's I'm working with a like such a cold bunch, man, like everyone, everyone's extremely talented, man. And I think for me, more than anything, like it's sick to be on this side. Because understanding it from the other side, like being the artist coming into an office or coming into an environment. I'm gonna know the answers to a lot of the things what they're asking because I've been through it as well. So I'm always on my come up, like I've always worked or had long conversations with artists that are coming, like whether it be Stormzy, or it be Avelino, or it be Young and Krypton. Whoever whoever it may be. And I think like there was never like a role or a title or nothing. And it's like, you're not doing that for money or for finance. Like you literally wanna see the game nourish. You wanna see everyone blossom.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  So it's like.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  The game's got bigger and I think now it's about showing

• 1:04:54Speaker 00

  that we're able to work in the infrastructure and add value. Do you know what I'm saying? Like it's it's valuable our artists being inside to be able to speak to artists. Do you know what I'm saying? To be able to create, to be able to implement ideas. Because what happens is you, like I say, like we jumped on a train at the beginning of two thousand and eleven and it just moved. And then I I had to meet a tour manager and I had to meet a booking agent and all these things and it's like, I can literally talk you through everything step by step. And that's like if we're signing artists at ground zero, sometimes there's artists that are already put a paper, he's already here, already established. He signed to us. Um, but it's like just having artistic conversations with artists.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? And I think it's beautiful, man. I wake up and think art, wake up and think creative. So to be able to be in a space where I'm able to do that with artists that I love and respect, with people that I love and respect as well. Win, win, man. Yeah.

• 1:05:51Steven Bartlett?

  Earlier on, you said till death do us part. I notice you don't have a wedding ring on.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no wedding ring.

• 1:05:58Steven Bartlett?

  What's the situation there? Are you in a relationship? Are you dating also?

• 1:06:01Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, in a relationship, not married.

• 1:06:04Steven Bartlett?

  Have you struggled with relationships or have you have you found it being a fairly obsessive person? Cause throughout your story, I had I saw this word hunger over and over again, even when other people described you. And I'm thinking back to Ashley on that kitchen table getting annoyed at you, you know?

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  I I think I'm understanding balance a lot more.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  I think that's come with maturity and that's come with age, like balance is important. I had no balance back then, none. It was all about making this happen. And I don't know if it's because it happened. Do you get what I'm saying? And maybe if it doesn't happen, maybe we don't get this version of me where I'm more understanding that you've got to divide time. I think also what what was a big eye opener for me, like once again, talking about jumping on that train, yeah?

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  From like two thousand and eleven to two thousand and like fourteen, fifteen. Bro, certain times my family's having conversations, yeah, and I'm like, what? When was that? And they're like, oh, no, no, that was when you was yeah, it's like I was it's like I was dead for four years. I was just off the grid and it's like.

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  It's never ever sat well with me, do you know what I'm saying? So now like I make a conscious effort, a conscious decision to be like as someone who is the backbone and the head of the family to be it. Do you get what I'm saying? Cause there's two, there's two types of, of, of, you know, of men that head the family. And it's, and it's one that everyone's financially okay. And when, if there's any red letters. But then there's a, there's the one that's able to do that, but is also there as well. Like an hour on the phone or let's go and sit down and talk for four hours is as powerful as someone who can make a bill vanish. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think in two thousand and eleven,

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  I was more the other guy. Yeah, I, I saw it out. I get, um, phone this person that can sue it out. Phone, like someone can sue it out. I'm sorting it out, but it was like, I'm missing and it doesn't make me feel good. I'm like, I miss graduations and do you know what I mean? Like so much things that because you're busy, they might not invite you to now. Because we asked you to come last week, but you couldn't make it. Like I was generally out of the country, but maybe I could have made that one, but you didn't ask. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, doesn't feel good, man.

• 1:08:25Steven Bartlett?

  I think I'm probably red letter guy now.

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  It's horrible, bro.

• 1:08:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And not given enough attention to family in that regard, like.

• 1:08:32Speaker 00

  How'd you, how'd you balance it? Or you?

• 1:08:34Steven Bartlett?

  With my family, it really, really, it's a really difficult thing. Um, they, they kind of live all over the place as well. So they didn't all live in one place. So really like what I do is I try and bring everyone together for Christmas and I fund the situation at Christmas. Um, but I know I'm not doing a good enough job and it's something I'm gonna work on. Fortunately, I met a, a young lady who is very unnegotiable about balance. And like, I genuinely feel that if I don't,

• 1:09:00Steven Bartlett?

  I've got to make sure my terminology is correct here. Cause sometimes, sometimes when people describe their relationships, especially people that are really obsessive, they, they start to use words like, which is, which, which make it seem like I'm doing something to please someone. So that they don't go.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Steven Bartlett?

  Well, it's not. It's, I want to do it. But she has given me the desire to want to be balanced in my life, which means like today.

• 1:09:27Steven Bartlett?

  During the workday, I went for lunch with her, then came back quickly. And I'd carried on with my research on you and stuff. I would never have done that before.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Steven Bartlett?

  I would have just woken up in the morning, eight o'clock, and I would have worked till one A M. Till I'd fallen asleep. And then I would have said to whoever I was with, probably kind of like gaslighted them in some way and said like, oh, you don't understand.

• 1:09:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, no, you found the right person then.

• 1:09:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:48Speaker 00

  Because then you wanna.

• 1:09:51Steven Bartlett?

  Then I wanna do it, it's not compliance.

• 1:09:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, then you wanna do it.

• 1:09:53Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? Then you want to. It's about balance, man. It's about balance. And even me with the kids as well, like I've got, my son's fifteen. Yeah, my daughter's ten. It's like, that balance as well, like, you know, at the time when I had my daughter, and we then, you know, then, but we separated. And it was like, it hurts me, like, my daughter, she has no recognition of living with me.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, she's like, yeah, my mom said, like, like, you used to live, like, I'm like, what do you mean? Yeah, I used to, of course I used to live there. She'd wake up and come to me and she'll remember. Then I'm like, I need to overextend to build this relationship because my son has that. We've had that. Waking up, him going to sleep, waking up, seeing me. Do you know what I'm saying? And it's just them little things.

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  Where it's like, like, the kids will come over and I'll be like, oh, we're gonna do this. And my daughter might say to me, I have to ask my mom. So it's like, her concept of a dad was probably more like an uncle.

• 1:10:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  Do you get what I mean? Like, you know, like, to your uncle, you say, no, I've got to ask my mom, but not to your dad, but it's like, she had to, I was like, no, no, me and my mom are on the same level. Do you know what I'm saying? But because she's not seeing me every day.

• 1:11:11Speaker 00

  Like, or waking up to me, or, do you know what I mean? I'm not tucking her in. I was just like, bro. I had to, like, it was so important that we, we get here, we get here, we get, and we're here now, but it took, it takes time to rebuild, man. So it's better, you build it than have to rebuild as well.

• 1:11:29Steven Bartlett?

  What if, you know, when you were shot on those CDs and trying to get people to buy those first thousand CDs from your mixtape line from my mixtape? What if it just hadn't worked out?

• 1:11:39Steven Bartlett?

  Has that ever crossed your mind? What if just, you know, what if it didn't, didn't work out?

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Had to, had to. Like, the plan B was revert back to plan A. Anytime you felt like you needed to remotely think about doing something else, it was revert back to plan A. It was always, it was always gonna happen.

• 1:11:58Steven Bartlett?

  There's a lot of people that think that and it just doesn't work out, you know?

• 1:12:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:01Steven Bartlett?

  Does that haunt you a little bit?

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  I think my need was too much, man. My need was too, I, I became too good at it. Like, the obsession made me better, made me more hungry. I just, I just became a monster, man. I just, I'm like, no one can rap like I rap. Do you get what I'm saying? But that's because I'm listening to everyone rapping and I'm like, alright, cool, how, wow, this what they're doing, yeah? Like, alright, triple rhymes, cool, I'll do quadruple. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, I was always trying to challenge, trying to push, trying to push, trying to push. And like, when you've been rapping, like, when your year group is like Gets or Kano or, I mean, or Gigs or whatever like that, that's like man's age group, they're my age mates. So it's like, when

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  you're listening to Gets and he's doing that, you're like, alright, cool, I can't even slip a second, you know what I'm saying? I've gotta, I've gotta push, I've gotta push, I've gotta push. I can't. It, it had to happen, man. I, I don't see any, the story wasn't ending any other way. Or like, the story wasn't having any other middle.

• 1:13:06Steven Bartlett?

  What would you say to musicians that, you know, are now coming up in this world of TikTok and, you know, what, what, what do they, what do you think they need to, to make it and to follow it in your footsteps?

• 1:13:17Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 1:13:18Steven Bartlett?

  Now that you also know the industry as well and the mechanics of that.

• 1:13:21Speaker 00

  Cause TikTok is, TikTok is powerful now, man.

• 1:13:23Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  It's the new tastemaker, it's the new

• 1:13:28Steven Bartlett?

  discovery platform.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the new discovery, man. And it's like.

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  So remember when I said that there was a formula?

• 1:13:35Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:35Speaker 00

  And it was like, if that DJ plays it first on Thursday and then TikTok is a part of that formula now. Like you put a song on that sounds a certain way, it gets a certain amount of views. And that's an indicator to the record labels that this song's gonna be amongst, you know, on the playing field of the hit playing field. It's, it's, it's become that. And I think you can use it to your advantage, but I guess once again, like, the part we are in control of is the song, is the quality. Like, always make sure the quality is top notch regardless, because all the things, everything else will change, bro.

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  Like Michael Jackson put out tapes, vinyls. Now Chris Brown goes on streaming platforms, do you get what I'm saying? And I launched records on radio first, now they launch records on TikTok for like, everything will change, bro. But the quality will always remain. You can't skip it. You can't skip leg day, man.

• 1:14:46Steven Bartlett?

  You're adding me there. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest. And they don't know who they're writing it for. They always ask, but we never tell them. So they've actually written two questions, which is interesting. The, the first question they wrote, I'm gonna read them both at the same time, is what for you is a life well lived? And then they wrote, how do you make the most of this moment? So what for you is a life well lived and how do you make the most of this moment?

• 1:15:13Speaker 00

  A life well lived is waking up every day

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  and having multiple reasons to smile. And within that, making multiple people smile.

• 1:15:31Speaker 00

  Um, I always think like, life is a record. So you know the record? Put the, the needle on and it comes inwards.

• 1:15:41Speaker 00

  So this coming inwards is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Then it gets to the end in the middle and it stops. And my thing is like,

• 1:15:51Speaker 00

  What song are you listening to? While your, your, your time span is shooting in, is it? Something that's, that's, that's, that's full of purpose, something that's making you smile and something that's energising other people. And I, and, and, and for me, it's like, I wanna be able to be a positive soundtrack for key moments in other people's lives as well. So a life well-lived is me being happy, bringing happiness and being able to also add a soundtrack to people's happiest moments.

• 1:16:24Steven Bartlett?

  Though, though, Panser. And then the second question was, how do you make the most of this moment?

• 1:16:31Speaker 00

  How do I make the most of this moment? Living it, man. Living it. And I think appreciate it as well.

• 1:16:41Speaker 00

  I think, um, I say living it because it's, it's, it's easy to be on that train. I keep going back to that train. It's easy to be on that train and just to keep going, keep going, keep going. But for me, we don't meet anyone for no reason.

• 1:16:59Speaker 00

  There's no meaningless conversation. You know, there's always something to take from a conversation that you thought, what the hell was that about? Do you know what I'm saying? Cause we're all, bro.