John Joseph & Mishka Shubaly Are My Reservoir Dogs

500 EPISODES. Over seven years ago, I sat down in a damp and echo-y warehouse on the north shore of Kauai and hit record for the very first time. There was no agenda. No commitment to even record a second episode. And certainly zero idea that what began as a fun experiment would evolve into both a passion and a vocation. And yet here we are. Without fail, beginning in late 2012, I have uploaded at least one episode every single week, amassing over 1000 hours of conversation and a global audience that downloads this show more than 3 million times a month — in total, over 70 million streams and counting. The numbers are great, but they fail to capture what is truly meaningful: the opportunity to go deep and unfiltered with some of the most amazing people currently walking planet Earth; and in turn share their incredible wisdom with all of you. Today I give thanks for taking this journey with me -- a calling and a service I consider the best job in the world. It's been a privilege -- a great honor and a profound responsibility I don’t take lightly. I believe in celebrating milestones. So today we do just that. And we do it in style with two of my most most beloved brothers from other mothers. Enter John Joseph and Mishka Shubaly. Between these two gentlemen, I count 14 total previous appearances on the show, including one vivid episode five years past (RRP #95) that involved the three of us huddled on a small bed in a cramped New York City hotel room. Today we fertilize our bromance, reprising those sweet sweet punk rock, Algonquin table vibes with another turntable spin on plants & punk. On running and writing. And on addiction & sobriety. This one is all over the place. No point in even trying to describe it other than that Mishka showed up with a bottle of Pepto Bismol. Kinda says it all. Heads Up: This conversation is packed with expletives. It might even hold the RRP f-bomb record. As many of you know, these laddies simply can’t be muzzled, nor would you want them to be. So just an alert that this episode is neither family friendly nor workplace approved. So pop on the earbuds if you got kiddos in the backseat. And If you’re easily offended, perhaps this one isn’t your cup of tea. 500 episodes. It feels good. So good, I wore a coat and tie to mark the occasion, which you can of course watch on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Here's to celebrating with those you love dearly. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:05Mishka Shubaly?

  You don't have to have the gun locked and loaded in order to make the decision to change your life. It doesn't have to be lowest ebb, it doesn't have to be blackest night. At any point in your life, you're having a problem with drinking too much, using drugs, smoking, eating, just acting wrong. There's always a way forward. And for me, it's been the connection. The connection between human beings. And that's the, you know, that's the only way that I know how to like navigate this quagmire is through connecting with other people.

• 1:40John Joseph?

  So not alone.

• 1:42Mishka Shubaly?

  Absolutely, not alone.

• 1:44John Joseph?

  Anybody that's using and anybody that's getting high, and that's always my message is, look, man, you can't do it alone. You gotta reach out for help. You know, it just cost my guitar player his life because the embarrassment and trying to hide what was going on. I think in terms of the four agreements, we make assumptions, and that's a problem. We assume people are gonna judge us. We assume we're gonna be looked down upon. But no, you'd be quite surprised how many people are out there that love you and have compassion, and, you know, they were waiting for you to step forward and admit, hey, man, I got a problem. And that's number one. To solving a problem, you have to admit you have one.

• 2:29Rich Roll?

  That's Mishka Shubali and John Joseph, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:45Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, all you podcast listening humanoids. I am indeed Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Damn good to have you. Real quick up top, people tell me all the time that they'd love to go plant-based, but they just can't part ways with their love affair with cheese. And I get it. My wife Julie gets it. So she actually decided to do something about it, spending the last five years, the better part of the last five years, studying the fine art of artisanal cheese making with this goal, this dream of creating the world's best plant-based cheese. Cheese so damn good, you simply cannot believe it's not dairy.

• 3:30Rich Roll?

  And dare I say, she has done it. The evolution of cheese, call it cheese 2.0, Shrimu will defy everything you thought you knew about how absolutely delicious nut-based cheese can be. To this day, after sampling thousands of wheels, I still can't believe it myself. And I've seen firsthand the expression on people's faces when they try it for the first time. From little kids to finicky, straight-up Parisian cheese snobs, the verdict is unanimously one of gleeful shock. It's vegan, it's paleo, it's dairy-free, it's gluten-free. Shrimu is a direct-to-consumer subscription box model. Each box contains six different cheeses,

• 4:14Rich Roll?

  shipped straight to your door monthly, bi-monthly, or quarterly. Even the unboxing experience is exquisite. So to learn more and sign up, visit shrimu.com, S-R-I-M-U.com, and finally put that dairy cheese addiction in the rearview mirror. Okay, episode 500, my people. 500. Who would have thought? Not me, that's who. If I step into where I was when I hit record on episode one in that warehouse on the North Shore of Kauai back in late 2012, there wasn't even a plan for episode two, let alone a vision that this would somehow at some point become

• 4:55Rich Roll?

  a vocation. So let's just leave it at that. Now, here we are, seven plus years later, a thousand plus hours of talking, and along the way, meeting some of the most amazing people currently walking the earth, from the very well-known to the very much unknown, all of them gems, some of the most memorable moments of my entire life, shared with you guys, a calling and a service I consider not only to be the best job in the world, but also a privilege and honor and a responsibility I don't take lightly. And I wanted to celebrate this 500th episode milestone in style. So to break it all down, I decided to bring

• 5:38Rich Roll?

  back two of my most beloved brothers from other mothers. You know them, you love them, John Joseph and Mishka Shubali. Between these two gentlemen, we're talking 14, if I counted correctly, previous appearances on the show, including one memorable episode five years ago where the three of us huddled on a bed in a cramped New York City hotel room, RRP 95, if memory serves me. And today, we pick it back up, reprising those sweet, sweet punk rock Algonquin table vibes with another turntable spin on plants and punk, on running and writing, and on addiction and sobriety. For those new to the show, wondering what exactly is

• 6:21Rich Roll?

  happening right now, beloved brother John Joseph is the product of an almost impossible to imagine hard-boiled upbringing. Born from and into abuse, he was reared on the mean streets of Manhattan's Lower East Side, in and out of foster care, and essentially left to fend for himself. It's a life marred by violence, homelessness, drugs, addiction, crime, and prison. And ultimately, music saved his life and gave him an entirely new one. Best known for fronting the legendary hardcore band Cro-Mags, today, John lives a life of sobriety, of PMA, Positive Mental Attitude, and Ahimsa, nonviolence. A bhakti yoga devotee, he is an 11-time Ironman finisher,

• 7:04Rich Roll?

  two of which he completed with a hernia. He's a motivational speaker, he's an author of three books, Evolution of a Cro-Magnon, Meat is for Pussies, and The PMA Effect, who continues to ferociously tour, compete, perform, write, speak, and serve his fellow man, all fueled on a 100% plant-based diet. Then, there's little brother Mishka, freaking Mishka. I can't think of a better way to describe Mishka than stubborn. If you've been a listener since day one, then this gravelly-voiced, self-deprecating creative should ring a warm bell for you. He's a cult singer-songwriter, a van-dwelling vagabond,

• 7:47Rich Roll?

  and an obstinate, dare I say, contumacious, ooh, there's a big word, basically smarmy smartass with an inexplicable penchant for kind of getting in his own way, time and time again. However, I gotta say, Mishka is also an indisputably talented master storyteller who somehow, some way, finagled a post teaching writing at Yale. His short tales of drink, drugs, disaster, desire, deception, and their aftermath, most notably The Long Run, which continues to outsell Finding Ultra, and his latest work, almost too predictably titled, This Van Could Be Your Life, topped the Amazon Kindle Singles Chart. His beautiful memoir, entitled I Swear I'll Make It Up To You,

• 8:32Rich Roll?

  is also a must-read that you gotta check out if you haven't already. It's all coming up in a couple few, but first, let us keep some house, shall we?

• 8:49Rich Roll?

  500. 500 freaking episodes. It's unbelievable. It feels good. I guess so good. In fact, I wore a coat and tie to mark the occasion, which is a first. You can check that out in the YouTube version at youtube.com forward slash Rich Roll. And it feels even better to share it all by stoking my favorite bromance. This one is all over the place. I'm not sure I can or really even want to describe the conversation that's about to ensue, other than it is an entertaining journey to wit Mishka, a vision for you always, suffering from a spot

• 9:30Rich Roll?

  of Montezuma's revenge, or so he claimed, showed up and promptly placed a bottle of Pepto Bismol on the podcast desk. So that kind of says it all. Quick heads up, this conversation is chock-a-block with expletives, maybe even an all-time F-bomb record. So as many of you know, JJ, he just can't be muzzled, nor would you want him to be. So just a heads up that this one isn't workplace approved. So pop on the earbuds if you've got kiddos in the backseat, and if you're easily offended, perhaps this conversation isn't your cup of tea. Okay, let's do it. 500.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Hold on, yesterday's t-shirt.

• 10:15Mishka Shubaly?

  I need like a hammock today, man. We'll see if I can stay on this stool. It's been a long time.

• 10:20John Joseph?

  Don't say the word stool. That is a trigger word.

• 10:24Rich Roll?

  You can always get up for an emergency evacuation.

• 10:28Mishka Shubaly?

  It's been a long time since I had to fight this hard to stay on a stool.

• 10:31John Joseph?

  So what are we talking about here?

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  Well, this is what's like, set the stage. First of all, episode 500, I could think of no two better people, or the two people that I wanted to do this with than you guys. We are reprising our New York City hotel room encounter from like four or five years ago, what that was.

• 10:50John Joseph?

  We were in a shoebox.

• 10:52Rich Roll?

  We were laying in bed together.

• 10:54John Joseph?

  All three of us on the fucking bed.

• 10:55Rich Roll?

  Sitting on a bed, doing it.

• 10:57John Joseph?

  And this guy's not like a midget like me. He's like 6'10" or whatever. You.

• 11:02Rich Roll?

  And shout out to Mishka, who's experiencing a little Montezuma's revenge at the moment. It was unclear whether you were gonna post up today, but you made it.

• 11:11Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 11:12John Joseph?

  Soldier up, man. That's it, bro.

• 11:13Mishka Shubaly?

  There was, there was no point where I was like, I'm gonna bail on the podcast, but there was one point last night where I was like, if I just die, then, then Rich won't be mad for me not showing up, right?

• 11:26Rich Roll?

  But you were, you were texting me yesterday about how bad it was. And I was like, well, this is perfect because it, it basically just creates a platform to deconstruct the, you know, sort of trash can fire that is your life.

• 11:39Mishka Shubaly?

  One, one thing I will say is, man, like, remember when you used to drink yourself to this point of illness on a regular basis?

• 11:49Rich Roll?

  Constantly.

• 11:50Mishka Shubaly?

  Like, dude, I can't, I can't fucking believe I used to live like this, man. Like I, you know, this last four days, it's just been like a drug trip.

• 11:58Rich Roll?

  Go out of your way to live that way.

• 12:00Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Rich Roll?

  The lengths that you would go.

• 12:02Mishka Shubaly?

  Make sure that you would feel that way.

• 12:04John Joseph?

  Pay to, pay to feel that way.

• 12:07Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. No shit, man.

• 12:09Rich Roll?

  So, welcome, boys.

• 12:11John Joseph?

  Thank you. Thanks for having me.

• 12:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man. Absolutely.

• 12:14John Joseph?

  Of course, like to, the podcast is like going through the stratosphere, like

• 12:19Rich Roll?

  It's been a

• 12:20John Joseph?

  With the guests.

• 12:21Rich Roll?

  It's been a journey, man. It's been a journey. You guys go back, you guys are the OGs. You go back all the way to the beginning. So, delighted to have you.

• 12:30Mishka Shubaly?

  That was one of the things I was thinking when I was like biting my tongue on the way here to like stay in my lane to get here is that like, this is a hell of a trip you've taken, man. You know, from, like, from being a drunk, which is like the ultimate of narcissism, you know, where you just take yourself out of the game completely, just following your own pleasure or self obsession, to, to this thing that you've created, man, of just like, um, going so deep into the life of the mind and how much you've given to, to me, to John, to fucking everybody, man.

• 13:02John Joseph?

  I was telling the Uber guy, he's like, so what are you in LA to do? I said, oh, you know, I'm going up to do this podcast. I was telling him about it. And he's like, oh, yeah, wow. I go, yeah, you know, this is somebody that uh is living a life of service, you know, to others with, you know, the amount of people that the podcast has helped, you know, it's, it's, uh, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass, man. I get like fucking hundreds of letters a month of it, you know, that people just went down the rabbit hole in your podcast because you just cover everything and not just, you know, vegan people or whatever. It's just the real people that are pushing the envelope,

• 13:45John Joseph?

  challenging themselves, overcoming obstacles and just like it's, you know, I, I, I listen to probably just about every podcast.

• 13:53Rich Roll?

  Thank you, man. Appreciate that. That means a lot.

• 13:55John Joseph?

  It's amazing.

• 13:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you know, I mean, it was, it was humble beginnings. I've said it before, but when I started it, you know, I didn't know if I would do a second episode. I was just doing it for fun and following my curiosity and it's just kind of organically grown from there, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't the result of, of deciding this is going to be my vocation or like whiteboarding it or creating goals or this is what I want it to be. I honestly just showed up for it, you know, every week and it's just kind of come what it's, what it's become. And look, you know, there's, there's luck involved too. Like I was in the right place at the right time and this medium kind of blew up and I'd been doing it for a little bit, but you know, it's just been such a gift. And, you know, to your point of like, uh, Mishka of like, you know, being this narcissistic alcoholic on a path

• 14:38Rich Roll?

  of self-destruction to want of, want of service. I mean, I'm, you know, first of all, like, I'm still a selfish bastard and prone to my, prone to my, you know, ego and, and, and the victim of a million different character defects, but, but what I have learned in the hallowed halls of, of recovery that you so vociferously shine.

• 15:01John Joseph?

  Here we go.

• 15:03Rich Roll?

  Is, is, is the value of service and how, and how, you know, when you can orient your life or approach certain circumstances or situations that you find yourself in from a perspective of service and what you can give as opposed to what you can extract from it, um, that your life goes better and, and actually you're, you're, you're happier. So I try to enter into all of these with, with that mindset.

• 15:26John Joseph?

  Alright, I was this, that was my exact conversation. You know, this guy came up from Mexico, he's, you know, left a career, they wanted him to be a doctor and he's like, I just wasn't happy doing it and, you know, it's just helping other people, service to people is, I mean, I found my happiness lies in that too, it's.

• 15:48Rich Roll?

  But let me ask you this, was he listening to the radio?

• 15:52John Joseph?

  No.

• 15:53Rich Roll?

  I've never gotten into an Uber or a Lyft where they were listening to a podcast. So I'm always like, hey, do you ever listen to podcasts? And they're like, yeah, I don't really know what that, you know, it's weird. It's like you're driving around all day. You would think more.

• 16:06John Joseph?

  But you know what?

• 16:07Rich Roll?

  Rideshare people would be doing that.

• 16:08John Joseph?

  That's what he does. He listens to meditation podcasts and, and puts them on for people and.

• 16:14Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 16:14John Joseph?

  He actually got out of the car to pet your dog. He's like, who's this beautiful creature? But like, I talked to him about, you know, diet and stuff too. We, we had a good talk the whole time. I wasn't sitting there like a fucking, you know.

• 16:27Rich Roll?

  That's classic JJ.

• 16:28John Joseph?

  Yeah. And he's like, well, you know, I stay plant-based, but then when I go to my relatives in Mexico, then they, that's what they make for me and, you know, whatever. Went down the rabbit hole on that one.

• 16:42Mishka Shubaly?

  The, the best advice I ever got in my life was from a taxi driver, like 15 years ago or something.

• 16:48Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 16:49Mishka Shubaly?

  And he said, everybody's got to work, but you get to decide who you work for. And he was like, me, I work for me, you know, and that, that blew my fucking mind, you know, cause like, it was just like, everybody's, at that time in New York, everybody's working for startups and like, you know, you know, you gotta have, you gotta have the money, you know, just this like naked fetishization of wealth. And then I was like, nah, I can just work for me and like for what's important for me.

• 17:20Rich Roll?

  You're like, I got a van.

• 17:24Mishka Shubaly?

  You know, I was, I was like waiting for when the car shit would come up. Yo, I got a new truck. You're gonna love it, man. It's, it's awesome.

• 17:32Rich Roll?

  I saw a photo of that.

• 17:33Mishka Shubaly?

  I got rid of the van. It's a 92, man.

• 17:35John Joseph?

  I know, I follow him and like all his tour stories.

• 17:39Rich Roll?

  It's only 28, it's only 28 years old.

• 17:42Mishka Shubaly?

  It's tight, man. It's just getting broken in.

• 17:44Rich Roll?

  I'm so old that when I hear 92, I was like, oh, that's pretty new.

• 17:48John Joseph?

  It doesn't register till we get to the seventies, like, okay.

• 17:52Rich Roll?

  I know. So what happened? You were in Mexico?

• 17:55Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, I was down in Mexico, uh, visiting my uncle. He goes down there, uh, every year. He got sober in Mexico. He fell down, hit his head and then he, he like, you know, he's a religious guy and he was like, I had a miracle from Jesus and he just removed my urge to drink.

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 18:09Mishka Shubaly?

  And he, so he's been sober nine or 10 years now. Yeah. And, um, and, uh, and he went to meetings and stuff. He doesn't go, you know, anymore, but he stayed sober. And, uh, so I just go down there, you know, every year to just hang out with my uncle and like just chill out.

• 18:25Rich Roll?

  And, uh, and drink tap water?

• 18:27Mishka Shubaly?

  Oh, man.

• 18:29John Joseph?

  Where in Mexico?

• 18:30Mishka Shubaly?

  Uh, Sayalito, which is north of Puerto Vallarta, a little surfing village. The, um, and, uh, it was, it's great, man. Cause I was like, oh, I'm going to see Rich. I'm going to see JJ. And like, I've been doing good with my diet. Started running again, banged out 10 miles the other day, like no problems. Didn't even feel sore the next day. And I was like, oh, my stomach feels a little weird. Fucking four days later.

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  You've been laid out pretty badly.

• 18:55Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, yeah. Just like, just, you know, there's that, like the level of sickness where you're like, uh, am I gonna die? And then you're like, please let me die. Please just, just let me die. You know, it's like last night I was sick enough that if there had been somebody there for me to cry to, I would have cried for sure. I was just alone on my friend's couch. Like, oh God.

• 19:19Rich Roll?

  I've, uh, I've stayed pretty close with JJ over the last couple of years, but I haven't seen you in quite some time, man. It's been, it's probably the longest since I've known you that I've gone without like being in, in pretty close contact with you.

• 19:30Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, I, uh, I sort of, I sort of went off the map for a minute there. I, I went out and did five months on the road without a break. Never do that. Never fucking do that. I could have told you that. Never. I told you that a couple of years ago.

• 19:43John Joseph?

  You were playing some like crazy places too.

• 19:46Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Rich Roll?

  Basically, for people that are listening or that are new and haven't heard our past episodes, Mishka lives this life where you're essentially living out of your car, hitting these dive bars and doing like gigs on the nightly, right? Just kind of driving around the US.

• 20:02Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 20:03Rich Roll?

  Across Europe. I mean, the last time I saw you, I think, was when, when, when we were both in London at the same time. And you were playing a little bar there. But since that time, like, that's basically what you've been doing, right?

• 20:15Mishka Shubaly?

  Yep.

• 20:15Rich Roll?

  Just gigging out at these little watering holes?

• 20:18Mishka Shubaly?

  So like, um, what year is it? The 2020? So, uh, 2018, I bought a place. I sort of like, after five months, I just like fucking lost my mind. And I was, uh, my mom was living in Phoenix. And I was like, I'm just gonna rent an apartment there. And then I looked into it and it was cheaper just to buy a house. So I bought this like 100 year old house that's like falling apart. And, uh, and moved there. And then I've been, I've been trying to put down roots, man. You know, like my mom lives down the street now and, uh, I have a house. I got a cat.

• 20:56Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 20:56Mishka Shubaly?

  I got a little special needs cat.

• 20:58Rich Roll?

  How often are you there?

• 20:59Mishka Shubaly?

  The, um, I don't know, man. After this, after this, like, I got real sick when I was in Europe, uh, last summer. And then after getting like real sick again, I might be staying home for a minute, man. Uh, I'm like, I just feel, I'm, I'm like, I'm trying not to make any big decisions right now. Cause you know, like, if you're super sick, you've been sick for a while. You know, like, it seems just everything goes out the window.

• 21:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:23Mishka Shubaly?

  You know, your, your, your image of yourself, your plans for the future, your mental health, all that shit. And right now, I'm just like, oh yeah, my life's over, you know? But no, I have a great year ahead of me and I've been building like a really good life in Phoenix.

• 21:37Rich Roll?

  Good. I'm glad to hear that, man.

• 21:39Mishka Shubaly?

  And I'm gonna, I'm gonna be taking some time off the road too.

• 21:43John Joseph?

  You need to do that.

• 21:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, come on, man. From JJ, who's been on and off the road for how many years at this point?

• 21:49John Joseph?

  Thirty-nine years, man.

• 21:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you just wrapped a tour recently, didn't you?

• 21:56John Joseph?

  Um, yeah, we, uh, Cro-Mags were out with, uh, Clutch and, uh, Killswitch. And then before that with Hatebreed. And then we did some, you know.

• 22:08Rich Roll?

  You do these like big European, like hardcore festivals.

• 22:13John Joseph?

  Twenty-five, thirty thousand people. We played up in Canada. Uh, Seventy-Seven Festival, which is.

• 22:20Mishka Shubaly?

  We, we don't hit the same venues.

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  No, I know. It's a different demographic.

• 22:25John Joseph?

  I gotta tell you, I'm gonna tell you right now, the best fucking gigs is not when there's a barricade and there's all these people. It's that small venue with five hundred people or three hundred people packed in there and it's like, you know, just going ape shit. Knocking my fucking teeth out and whatever the fuck is happening.

• 22:47Mishka Shubaly?

  I remember seeing you guys in New York some years back and it was like no time had passed. You know, it was just like, this shit is happening right now. And it is, it's always just been about the connection between the people.

• 22:58Rich Roll?

  Right. I think that's what, that, that's what keeps you continuing to do this.

• 23:02Mishka Shubaly?

  There's nothing like it.

• 23:04Rich Roll?

  That one-on-one, I mean, for you, they're very intimate, right? Like you get these small crowds of people and you have, you have this like super devoted, you know, interesting like cross-section of humanity that turns up to see you play.

• 23:17John Joseph?

  Just Henry Rollins did, did a thing on VH1 some, like a year back. They still show it occasionally and he was like, I love Henry. When I left the Navy, I stayed at his house with Ian McKay and, but he said that, uh... Way back in the day, everybody, you know, when you saw a band, it was like, the DD's on stage and you're a hundred yards away and I was just talking with your producer and you talking about seeing Sabbath and everything and then all of a sudden, there's no barricade. And Henry Rollins said, he went to see the Bad Brains and I think it was seventy-nine.

• 23:56John Joseph?

  And HR, the singer, jumped off the stage and knocked him down and was screaming over him into the mic. And Henry just looked at him and was like, I'm gonna do this for the rest of my fucking life. And that's the energy that comes from those types of, of shows, you know?

• 24:16Rich Roll?

  Well, Henry's an interesting dude. I mean, he's sort of, you know, now, much more of like a spoken word artist. He gets up and does these one-man shows. I mean, he's such a powerful speaker. He would be incredible.

• 24:26John Joseph?

  Oh, you gotta get him on.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  And he goes on these crazy world travels where he just drops himself into the middle of like a place he would never choose to go. Just so he can like learn about what's going on in different parts of the world.

• 24:37John Joseph?

  He's an amazing fucking guy and, you know, I saw SOA, one of his earlier bands. And then he auditioned for Black Flag at the Bad Brain Studio, 171A. And then his first show with Black Flag was at the Mud Club. And he fucking came out, I think it was early eighty-one, no fucking shoes, no shirt, barefoot. And just fucking ripped it. And I was like, holy shit, like.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  But he cut his teeth like the 930 Club in DC, right?

• 25:10John Joseph?

  Yeah, 930 and even, you know, at Madam's Organ and the whole scene that, you know, back then, it was like they would do shows just out in the middle of wherever the fuck. I remember they did this, there was a big show out in Virginia. And it was at a, it was Red Sea and a bunch of other bands and everybody got in these vans. The bar was called The Branding Iron. We get out there, it's a fucking country bar. There's tables up to the stage with dudes with ten-gallon hats, no idea of what the fuck is about to go down. And they came on, they didn't make it past two songs of the first band.

• 25:53John Joseph?

  Everybody started stage diving, wrecked the club, they called the cops. But, yeah, Henry. You know, Henry goes way back and he'll even tell you himself, the greatest influence in that whole scene to him was Bad Brains and then they went, those guys went out to California and checked out the whole west coast scene. You know, the black flags and, and circle jerks, dead Kennedys and that whole thing that was going on. And then brought that whole thing back, back east.

• 26:26Rich Roll?

  So where, where was Henry when you crashed with him?

• 26:29John Joseph?

  He was living like outside of Georgetown. I think him and him, him and Ian had an apartment in Alexandria, I think it was. I'm not sure.

• 26:38Rich Roll?

  But was black flag in full effect at that point?

• 26:41John Joseph?

  No, it was, he, he had taken some time off, like SOA, state of alert broke up. And then he was just working at like a deli. Uh, on, I think in Georgetown. And the funny shit was I was AWOL. He let me stay there. I had just split from the Navy. And it was like, I stayed there like a little over a week and eating his food every day. He's like, yo, you gotta get the fuck out. So the, the undead played at the nine thirty club. And they were from New York. So I, I said, yo, can you drive me up to New York, man? And that, but yeah, those, you know, and I talk about,

• 27:22John Joseph?

  you know, now you get these dudes going into mosh pit and they're fucking throwing kicks at each other. And it's like, it was never like that. When I first saw it, it was like this tribal dance and you had like a thousand people. And Henry Rollins just leading the pack, like creepy crawling around to the dead Kennedys holiday in Cambodia. And nobody would even, there'd be a thousand dudes creepy crawling and nobody would even fucking bump into each other.

• 27:51Rich Roll?

  So what do you think it is about him that makes him special and different?

• 27:55John Joseph?

  He lived the shit. He's, you know, Henry just.

• 28:00John Joseph?

  Fucking live that shit. He just said, no, I'm gonna do this. And never fucking back down. He played music. You know, did you, if did, he has the book Get in the Van. And it talks all the whole fucking story about being in Black Flag and uh.

• 28:15Mishka Shubaly?

  He has an unmatched level of intensity.

• 28:17John Joseph?

  Right, yeah, I mean, it's just like, you know.

• 28:20Mishka Shubaly?

  A hundred percent.

• 28:21John Joseph?

  Yeah, he's, and he, you know, he was always physically fit too. He started getting into training a lot and, and uh. Always keeping fit and putting, you know, never, and. What I appreciated too was the fact that, you know, he didn't get fucked up and take drugs and go on stage and make excuses. Sorry for the shitty show, like, every time he went. He's the consummate professional. He went on stage and he fucking killed it. And did, did it for year after year after year. And then he started writing the books and it was always DIY. Do it yourself and, you know, and then Ian started that label, um, you know, um.

• 29:02John Joseph?

  What do you call it? Down in uh, down in DC and started putting out all the records. They always did the shit themselves. Like even.

• 29:10Mishka Shubaly?

  But that was the aesthetic of the whole movement.

• 29:12John Joseph?

  Yeah, it was like, why should these, even with the Cro-Mags when we started, nobody would fucking touch us. So we paid and I, and, and went and did a fucking demo ourselves. And it got all over the country to the point where Metallica was fucking coming to see us. But we were always like, fuck the establishment. Why are we gonna wait for what dribbles down their fucking leg? Let's just go get it ourselves. They're not paying to see the label or the manager or the whatever. They're there to see the band. So let's fucking give them. You know, what they came to, to, to see, you know?

• 29:48Mishka Shubaly?

  You've always been DIY. Yeah, but I will say that the aesthetic that that JJ talks about of like always being there, always giving a hundred percent. That was the kind of thing that my friends and I shit on when I was when I was younger. And we were, you know, we were like way more into like Dead Boys and shit like that. I was just like, you know, like the fucking junkies with guitars.

• 30:12Rich Roll?

  Detached irony and cynicism.

• 30:15Mishka Shubaly?

  And you know what? Like, you guys were right, man.

• 30:17John Joseph?

  Do you know?

• 30:18Mishka Shubaly?

  We were wrong. It's like, cause that shit gets old fast.

• 30:21John Joseph?

  Hilly Crystal that used to own CBGB's before it closed, used to pay the Dead Boys with a sack of hamburgers and and and and a fucking bundle of heroin. They got and then and then Cheetah and then would go out back and fucking in the artist's alley behind CB's and fucking bang dope and like, it was a different, I saw that whole junkie punk rock shit in the seventies. My first girl died from that sh- from from heroin. But, you know, that's what I liked about Discord. That's Ian's label. And what those guys all did was it was like, fuck that fucking sex, drugs and rock and roll bullshit. Like, you know, we're gonna fucking do it this way. And

• 31:03John Joseph?

  and like I said, if you lived that fantasy life, very few of those people, first of all, survived it. And second of all, are still out there doing it. Third of all, at the level that you could go see Henry and he'll still kill it, or or Blood Cloud or Crow Migs or whatever. And it's like, you have to attribute that to, you know.

• 31:25Mishka Shubaly?

  Speaking of which, that's why you're in LA, right? You're rehearsing with this new band? Or you got new band members?

• 31:30John Joseph?

  Well, it's the same band, unfortunately. Our guitar player Todd Youth had a substance problem. And he relapsed right after the record, right after the first tour. And he got some of that fentanyl shit that's going around and and he he died. And it was fucking, it was a travesty. Because he's been a friend of mine since he first showed up on the scene in eighty-three in New York. He was probably twelve. He ran away from a home and we had similar similar stories. So I was like, you know, I was like twenty one and fucking street motherfucker down there. I'm like, nobody touches this fucking kid. Like, you know, and uh,

• 32:15John Joseph?

  we've been friends years and years and years. We had another band that opened up for the Red Hot Chili Peppers on the Mother's Milk Tour. So we've just been down a long road together and then we do this album and it's, everyone's bugging the fuck out. It's called Up in Arms and it just like started doing so well and then uh, he came off tour and had problems in his marriage and she decided to leave and he fucking relapsed and um, you know, passed away. It was like fucked up and uh, How long ago was that? About a year and a half ago now. So like, we waited, uh, you know, but um,

• 32:57John Joseph?

  you know, it's uh, you know, we have a, a, a responsibility in the business aspect of like Metal Blade, Brian Slagel fucking, we got hooked up with that deal through Todd Ronan who owns Crossroads. He was friends with me and Todd and heard the demo and was like, can I give this shit to Brian? Brian Slagel fucker signed us. With Michael Alago who signed Metallica got us uh, the deal we wanted and um, it just, so we waited, uh, you know, for this time to audition. Uh, see, I, this motherfucker don't even have to audition. I don't want to drop his name yet because uh, we want to wait till the band ma- makes a statement about it, but

• 33:41John Joseph?

  he's uh, he's a fucking virtuoso and he's been doing this shit for a long time and we're excited to have him uh, in the band and me and him um, wrote five or six new songs in New York. He's from New York. So we've been writing stuff and he learned the record and yeah, so initially- You gotta tell us who it is when we're off mic. I will tell you, but he's a monster fucking guitar player. It's been in huge bands and uh, and he's a friend and, you know. It's uh, he's clean and sober now, like any of us. You know, we all had our issues and, and you know, soldier on, man.

• 34:22John Joseph?

  Joey Castillo, the drummer, had issues, Nick had issues, all of us, but uh, you know, you, you, you're stronger as, as a team than an individual, so. And that's, that was the thing with Todd was, he never would reveal his mind and confidence, which is one of the, the um, qualities of a devotee, cause he was a Hare Krishna too, was that you're supposed to reveal your mind and confi- confidence to, to, you know, other people on the path, and he wouldn't do that. And he would hide it from, that he was using, but.

• 34:56Rich Roll?

  But that's what addicts do.

• 34:58John Joseph?

  Right, but the thing is, I've been down in that shit since 76. I know when somebody's high and I was calling him on it, and then he just cut off all fucking ties. He wouldn't answer his phone, like all this shit, and you know, anybody that's using and anybody that's getting high and, and that, that's always my message is, look, man, you can't fucking do it alone, you gotta, you gotta reach out for help. You know, nobody's gonna judge you. That's what he thought, that, oh man, I relapsed, the embarrassment. The embarrassment could cause death, if you let it.

• 35:35Rich Roll?

  Hundred, hundred percent, I mean, that, that's the number one driver, shame, you know, especially with somebody who, who relapsed and who had some time or, or knows what that kind of recovery community is all about. There's so much fear and shame that prevents them from going back, and I think that it's a, it's a default instinct amongst alcoholics and, and addicts to wanna try to solve the problem alone, and that's driven by fear and shame, right? Like, I don't need anybody's help, I'm not gonna tell anybody, I'm just gonna solve this, and then I'll emerge, you know, whole once again. And that's what drives people to, you know, jails, institutions, and ultimately death, because it really isn't something that you can do alone. And I'm not saying that there aren't people that have, I'm sure there are people that

• 36:19Rich Roll?

  have gotten sober and stayed sober by themselves, but that's not the story that you typically hear. And I think what's interesting about the three of us is that, you know, we're all clean and sober, and we all have been, you know, that way for quite some time, varying lengths of time. We've done it in different ways though, right? So how long, John, like, how long have you been clean and sober?

• 36:37John Joseph?

  Um, well, you know, speaking of the embarrassment. You know, I hooked up with the bad brains and then did all that shit in the early eighties and then I relapsed. After eight years, eighty-eight to ninety, and at first we're on crack, pills, booze, the whole shit, I tried to hide it. And then it just was like, fuck that, everybody knew. And I went through all that shit and then the nineties, I said, I almost got murdered and I was like, that's it, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm. It was real shit, you know, I had AR-15s, fucking shit, you know, the whole shit, it, it, it was some crazy shit. Right. And, um, so I, I, I, uh, I turned to other people and got the help, you know, and, and, uh,

• 37:21John Joseph?

  I, I, I kicked right in the neighborhood, walking past motherfucking smoking crack, like in Alphabet City. But then I got completely sober, but then I started in, in eight ninety-eight, you know, having DJ parties and doing fucking brownies and shrooms and weed shakes. AJ from Cro-Mags used to call me Shakes the Clown, cause I would do these like, you know, vegan, um, lattes with like weed that I cooked in coconut oil and, and I was just getting When was this? Fucked up, ninety-eight. Oh, wow, I didn't know that. All the way to two thousand and then nine eleven hit. And several things happened, I had to do an intervention on my younger brother again, Frank almost died

• 38:06John Joseph?

  the day before nine eleven and then take this lady called me, she's like, your brother's dying, you better come get him. And I had to go to Staten Island, drag him out of an attic, take him to my house, had him on a flight the next day to fucking rehab in St. Thomas. Boom, planes hit, didn't go. And then all this shit started happening and I'm like seeing, you know, my father, what, what, the, his whole alcoholism thing, what it did to the family and my mother telling me she was raped, that's how I was born. It was, I just started seeing so much bad shit and bad juju and, uh, involved around anybody.

• 38:44John Joseph?

  That was in my life that was using that I was like, that's fucking it. And I got popped. I had a weed business. I was delivering to fucking Dave Chappelle, everybody.

• 38:54Rich Roll?

  I didn't know this part. Dude, how many, how many hundreds of hours have I been in conversations with you?

• 38:59John Joseph?

  I had a weed business.

• 39:00Rich Roll?

  I keep thinking I've, I've like tapped out on the number of stories that you have.

• 39:05John Joseph?

  I had a weed business. I started working for the Pope a pot, one eight hundred one pot. But then I worked for other services and then I said, fuck this. I could do it myself. So I got huge modeling agencies would call me and everybody had my number, including Dave Chappelle's agent from TriStar Pictures, Matt Hind. So Dave Chappelle was one of my customers and I used to put all the weed. I used to ride a seven, eight thousand dollar professional bike. Put all the weed inside a black water bottle in the cage. And I've just rode around in bike gear, like looking like I was out for a, a ride. And then, uh,

• 39:44Rich Roll?

  That's how you got into the Iron Man shit?

• 39:46John Joseph?

  Yeah.

• 39:47Rich Roll?

  That weed is the gateway drug to, uh, to Iron Man shit?

• 39:51John Joseph?

  No, but the thing was, it was during the bad weather. I had somebody drive me, this guy Scott. And just this freak shit happened. I would never. It would just, it always had to be a referral and I had to call the person. It was like real tight. I didn't just fucking sell shit on the street. So it was this fucking dumb ass fucking businessman dude tells me, oh, I'm at this bar coming and I got popped, bottom line. And, uh, and then AJ Novello, who was in Leeway and the Chromags from since 92 was like, uh, he said, you know, I talked to my, my Swami was this, he's this incredible, um,

• 40:35John Joseph?

  Uh astrologist from India. And he'd said so much shit that fucking about people. He was able to do their charts and see.

• 40:44Rich Roll?

  Like a vedic astrologer.

• 40:46John Joseph?

  Dude, fucking unbelievable from India, like the real deal. And AJ said to him, should I? I'm thinking about doing this music again, this side project with my singer. And he goes, yeah, you can do it once he gets out of prison, because that's where he's going. And I was like, and he needs to stop doing drugs because some bad stuff is in his chart. And right after AJ told me that, I got busted. And then all this shit happened with, you know, my brother and all this other shit. And I'm like, you know what? That's it. So since uh right, since right, right around nine 11, I just, I just got sober.

• 41:25John Joseph?

  So fucking 19 years, man, of uh, you know, doing the do and not even like. Cause I started feeling like even smoking weed, I had to smoke the whole bag. I had to, you know, I'm an addict. I, I can't just, I had to smoke the whole bag of rocks of crack and then freebase and then go rob motherfuckers to get their shit, whatever. That's the way I've always been with my addiction problem. I, I, I would drink the whole bottle. I would take fucking three Placidos or two and alls or Quaaludes or whatever the fuck I was doing. And I'm like, I'm gonna fucking die. It's in the cards. I gotta fucking stop.

• 42:04John Joseph?

  And then shortly after I started, you know, training for marathons and then all which led to.

• 42:12Rich Roll?

  But you never went to 12 step.

• 42:13John Joseph?

  Never. But I, I, I did move into Krishna temple.

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, you, your, your program of recovery is very much a spiritual program, but it's one of your own design.

• 42:24John Joseph?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:25John Joseph?

  Oh, oh, but it's not isolating. I knew I couldn't do it on my own. I had to be around people with the PMA. Like I always say, and, and you know, those, those touchstones that. People like yourself and everybody else who's been through it and done it and are on the higher path. I made sure that I would fucking to the point of like they'd be like, yo dude, it's kinda creepy like how much I wanted to just. I was like, bro, I just need to be around positive people. We like, you know, it was that type of thing where I'm like. It's either, you know, everything is by association in Sanskrit, bhaktasangha, and who we hang out with, we take on those qualities.

• 43:05John Joseph?

  And I wanted the qualities of the fucking badasses on the planet that get shit done under any and all circumstances. And I knew it wasn't gonna happen. I started distancing myself from people who always made excuses and, you know, all that other shit that always playing the victim and all, you know, always me and everyone's out there. I just was like, not that I don't have compassion to try to help them, but it wasn't helping me in my life being around those people.

• 43:37Rich Roll?

  Have you ever gotten close to a relapse since then?

• 43:40John Joseph?

  Not at all, man. Cause that's why my girl didn't understand, Erica didn't understand why I do the Iron Man stuff. And I'm like, you know, listen, man, and my coach originally was Orion Mims and he goes, you know, and he's been through fucking hell. He's a fucking brother. He's had a fucked up family life, African American, boxed, all this shit. And he was like, you know, we're all running from, this keeps the demons at bay, you know? And for me, it's like the writing, the training, all of that stuff is what helps beat the mind with a stick every day.

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  So when someone says to you, you've just replaced one addiction for another, you, you, you know, you stopped with the crack and the weed and the booze, et cetera, and you've replaced that with Iron Man training? Like, how do you respond to that?

• 44:32John Joseph?

  I say, yeah, that and good diet. But what the fuck like what do you what would you rather be someone just said that's funny enough. This is your drug and I go, yeah, it's my drug of choice, but guess what? I get high as fuck off of it. I'm in shape. I help other people and

• 44:49Mishka Shubaly?

  So, so what's your fucking problem?

• 44:50John Joseph?

  Or you're gonna fucking die. Like, what do you what like? What's what's the alternative to that?

• 44:57Mishka Shubaly?

  Mishka has a good retort to that question. But well, the the thing I came up with most recently is, uh, no, I didn't just replace one addiction with another. I replaced, you know, in your case, the, you know, crack smoking, you know, robber junkie with an elite athlete who fucking inspires hundreds of thousands of people. So people are gonna find a way to hate on whatever you do for, you know, any reason.

• 45:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like you told me one time when you got asked that question, you said the drink. Here's how I think about it, like the drink was always the easy choice and putting on the running shoes in the morning is the hard choice.

• 45:32Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, dude, especially today.

• 45:35Rich Roll?

  Well, you aren't going running today.

• 45:37Mishka Shubaly?

  Oh, man.

• 45:38John Joseph?

  To the bathroom, man.

• 45:40Mishka Shubaly?

  That's about it. Yeah, the I so I I have an audio book coming out in March. About, you know, sort of how I quit drinking and what my process was with that.

• 45:51Rich Roll?

  Cold turkey.

• 45:52Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, so I I did a lot of, uh, I did a lot of research into that. This whole replacing one addiction with another, it's fucking, it's bullshit. It's fabrication. They there's been no evidence of people who are prone to one addiction, you know, having replacing one addiction with another. And what's in there was no research on it until the early 2000s. And then there was a a study from 2001 to 2004 that shows that if you had, um, if you're an alcoholic and then you deal with being an alcoholic, you're much less likely to have a cross addiction, you know, to develop a cross addiction to something else

• 46:32Mishka Shubaly?

  than somebody who's still a functional alcoholic who becomes addicted to fast food or coke or smoking.

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  Counterintuitive about that. I mean, you're saying someone who deals with their alcoholism, like if you're just a dry drunk and you've got no, you know, spiritual program, then in my experience, that person is much more likely to find themselves trying to, you know, Alter their, you know, their interior landscape by, you know, gambling or sex or, you know, whatever it is, they'll find some other way to, because you're not, if you're not dealing with the underlying dis-ease, that feeling of, of dis-ease, that feeling of like not, not feeling comfortable in your own skin, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna latch on to some other way of like altering your consciousness.

• 47:19Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, I mean, the, you know, I have two responses to that, you know, one thing is that, um, the, you know, this study, it's saying, um, you know, people, it's, it, there's, they're not comparing those people to, you know, to normal folks, that it's just comparing people who are actively practicing or actively using and people who are, who are no longer actively using. Um, so I don't think that it's perfect data there. Um, but you know, what you, what you describe, a dry drunk with no spiritual program, by your terminology, that's me, bro.

• 47:51Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 47:52Mishka Shubaly?

  Come at me, bro.

• 47:55Rich Roll?

  So you've been-

• 47:56Mishka Shubaly?

  Hit me while I'm down, right?

• 47:58Rich Roll?

  You've been sober how long at this point?

• 48:00Mishka Shubaly?

  Uh, 10 years now.

• 48:01Rich Roll?

  Or you've, maybe I should say you've abstained.

• 48:03Mishka Shubaly?

  I, I'm sober, I'm not-

• 48:06Rich Roll?

  There's a qualitative difference.

• 48:07Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, I mean, one of the things I wanted to, you know, to address, um, you know, is I, I'm not, uh, I'm not clean by that terminology. Like I, you know, I use, uh, mushrooms a couple of times a year, infrequently I'll smoke pot or something like that. The, you know, more and more though, like, you know, I have a bag of mushrooms in my freezer and it's been there for eight months, 10 months. Like I just don't have the time to get around to doing it. Um, cause I'm doing other shit, you know?

• 48:36Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 48:37Mishka Shubaly?

  Um, but I just wanted to sort of fact check that.

• 48:40John Joseph?

  Okay. Well, one thing that I, I look at it is, and I always said this, the amount of time and effort and energy that goes into maintaining a habit, if you redirected that energy toward anything positive, for me, it was like, I'm like, all the shit that I had to go through to get the coke-

• 49:03Rich Roll?

  Exhausted.

• 49:04John Joseph?

  To freebase it. And in my case, it had to do with like strong arm robbing motherfuckers, which could get me killed. And the amount of energy, even even a junkie who has a bundle a day habit, and I see it all the time still to this day. There's functioning junkies out there who can hold down a fucking nine to five, put on a fucking suit, and they got a habit. And they gotta do a bundle a day or half a bundle a day or whatever.

• 49:31Rich Roll?

  What's interesting about those people is I think most people would be surprised at how undetectable it is. You know, there's a lot of like sort of quote unquote like, you know, functioning heroin addicts or whatever, and you can't necessarily tell.

• 49:44John Joseph?

  I can tell.

• 49:45Rich Roll?

  Cause you have this image from television or whatever that, you know, it's like a dude who weighs a hundred pounds and, you know.

• 49:52John Joseph?

  Nah, man, it ain't like that. There's dudes that are fucking popping fucking oxys and all kinds of shit. And it's like, unless you really know, and I've been around, like I said, since I'm 13 years old and I'm fucking 58 this year. So that's a lot of years in the fucking trenches of the drugs and I can pretty much tell. But I always said, dude, if you guys, if these junkies allocated that amount of time, they could be running fuck fucking 500, Fortune 500 companies. I'm like, holy shit, the creative shit that they had to do. Fucking.

• 50:29Rich Roll?

  The resilience.

• 50:30John Joseph?

  The stories and the schemes.

• 50:31John Joseph?

  Every fucking day and the scams and the schemes. And I, I mean, I was there doing it myself, but I'm like, I just, it's not repla-, it's, it's, it's redirecting your energy at more than it is replacing one addiction for another. And the thing is, when I redirected all that energy I was wasting and getting high and all the other bullshit, the negative bullshit, my life started taking a very positive turn. And I was thus able to tell other people going through it like, yo, here's what you gotta do. Replace all that energy, put the energy here, you know, go, go fucking do this, you know, and um.

• 51:09Rich Roll?

  Similarly, this is a conversation that dates back to the, the first day that I met Mishka shortly after The Long Run came out. The amount of energy that, that Mishka puts into resisting. Uh, like a spiritual program. We'll just call it that.

• 51:25Mishka Shubaly?

  If I stop resisting, what are we gonna have to talk about, man? Quit getting cold to be on the podcast.

• 51:31Rich Roll?

  Imagine the world that would open up to Mishka if he would avail himself of the, you know, the higher powers that be.

• 51:38Mishka Shubaly?

  Look, well, look at it this way, you know, like the, you know, you're familiar with the, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, you know?

• 51:45Rich Roll?

  I'm very familiar with that. We're in that dynamic right now.

• 51:48Mishka Shubaly?

  There are, you know, and there are like, you know, and there are also, there are like, you know, there are dogs that like, just want to sit on the couch and smell their farts all day. And then there are dogs that want to run and like JJ is a dog that wants to fucking run, you know, like give him something.

• 52:00John Joseph?

  I smell my farts too.

• 52:02Mishka Shubaly?

  Give him something to pull against and he'll pull against it, you know? The, you know, but like what I, I'm going to go into it with this. I'm going to say, thank you to both of you guys. Cause like, I was thinking on the way over here, I was thinking, you know, thinking about the PMA shit. Again, it's one of those things when we were kids, we used to mock that shit and you were right and we were wrong, you know? And like, I need to get more of that in my life. I need.

• 52:25John Joseph?

  I brought a copy of the book for you. I don't know if you have it, but I did. I said, this motherfucker needs to get the book. So I got one for you.

• 52:33Mishka Shubaly?

  Gotta get right with God.

• 52:34John Joseph?

  But you're booked a long run. If you haven't read it, you know, and you're dealing with shit, go get that fucking book.

• 52:48Rich Roll?

  Just so people that are listening, if they're newer to the program and don't know the history here, like we go way back, like we were, I met you early days of the podcast. You had written this Kindle single, The Long Run. That was like the number one best selling. I think it probably to this day is the, the biggest selling Kindle single ever.

• 53:03John Joseph?

  Unbelievable.

• 53:03Rich Roll?

  Right? With the Nike shoe worn out on the cover. That thing still sells like crazy. And that's what brought us.

• 53:10Mishka Shubaly?

  Changed my fucking life, man.

• 53:11Rich Roll?

  That's what brought us together. So it's like a little, you know, it's a, it's, it's longer than a short story, but shorter than a typical book. And it kind of tells the story of how you got sober and discovered running and became this ultra runner.

• 53:23John Joseph?

  And let's, let's not forget finding Ultra. I mean,

• 53:26Mishka Shubaly?

  Oh yeah.

• 53:26John Joseph?

  That book is, you know, I read it out on the road when I'm in the van. I told you, remember? I'm like, holy shit. I just reread your book.

• 53:34Mishka Shubaly?

  I love the story about how you guys met where JJ cornered you and like, who is this guy?

• 53:39John Joseph?

  It was true. Brandon, I kept writing him and I'm like, motherfucker. The fuck this guy is not writing me back.

• 53:46Rich Roll?

  Vividly now, like we were at, we were at the seed festival in New York and you like chased me down a hallway or something.

• 53:53John Joseph?

  No, we were in the big room and I was like, I go to Brendan, I'm like, yo, that's that fucking rich wall guy. Yo, bring me over there, man. I wanna.

• 54:01Rich Roll?

  I don't remember getting emails from you though that went unresponded to.

• 54:05John Joseph?

  It wasn't never emails. It was on social media. So I was sending you messages on like Instagram or whatever the fuck and you never wrote me back.

• 54:14Rich Roll?

  I don't read that stuff most of the time.

• 54:15John Joseph?

  And then I said to Brendan, cause he knew you, I was like, yo, introduce me. And I was like, yo, motherfucker, like, what the fuck? I'm glad to meet you, but I've been.

• 54:24Rich Roll?

  What do you want from me? Jesus.

• 54:27John Joseph?

  I love you, man. But you're not getting my Bud Light.

• 54:32Mishka Shubaly?

  This, this is one of the ways in which I will defend my path is that my existence proves that you can change your life without swallowing the God pill, if that's so objectionable to you. Having been sober for 10 years, I'm far more open to spirituality and PMA and like, you know, that shit that I, that I ever was before. But you know, that's, you know, that's one of the issues that, you know, I had with like veganism is that it's, it's very like Catholic. It's either you're like, it's either you're righteous, you know, and like no, you know, no animal, anything will ever pass your lips or you're an outcast, you know, and obviously that's, you know, dramatic.

• 55:16Rich Roll?

  There's a lot, yeah.

• 55:16Mishka Shubaly?

  You know, drama ties, but.

• 55:18Rich Roll?

  That's dramatic and there's also a lot of projection in that too.

• 55:20Mishka Shubaly?

  Right, right. But, but people, but do people do say that, you know, and then that's how a lot of people perceive it. And that's, that's one of the things that I think prevented me from getting sober for a long time was that like, it's not just that you need to, to stop the only thing in this world that you're good at, which is fucking drinking high life and sitting on a bar stool for 12 to 14 hours. But also you have to believe in God, which is something you've never had and you've never needed, you know?

• 55:45Rich Roll?

  Well, but that, that's not, that's not completely accurate. I mean, basically the, you know, in, in 12 step, we gotta be a little bit careful here, cause I don't wanna like run too foul of the, of the traditions, but the only requirement. Is to have a desire to stop drinking. And in terms of of God, it's just, it's just a belief in a higher power. And what I always say to people that have issues around God, or have a lot of baggage around the church, or etc., or whatever, you know, that's, and I would put most people in that category, is that it's a higher power of your design. It doesn't have to be the God that you grew up with, or whatever notion of God, you know, is problematic for you. A higher power just means a power greater than yourself. That could be a collective,

• 56:30Rich Roll?

  a group of people, you know, in a room who have all stayed sober longer than you, and have some wisdom around how to do that, that you can summon enough humility to kind of, you know, have the willingness to do what they say, as opposed to whatever you want to do.

• 56:46Mishka Shubaly?

  Rich, I love you to death, and I believe in higher power. But if it's higher power and not God, why does it say God so many times in the fucking book?

• 56:56Rich Roll?

  Well, there's, there's a lot of colloquialisms in the book, too. You have to also understand that it was written in a certain time. So there's a lot of things in the book.

• 57:02Mishka Shubaly?

  That's the thing is, the time it was written in, but God was God. And it's a book, oh, all right, I gotta slow down here. But it's, it's a book for straight, white men who believe in a Catholic or Protestant, a Christian God.

• 57:18Rich Roll?

  They go out of their way to use higher power. I hear what you're saying. I understand.

• 57:21Mishka Shubaly?

  I'm not against AA, but I do think it needs to evolve. And I think that's something you're arguing in favor of as well.

• 57:29Rich Roll?

  I don't know that I'm, I'm not, listen, you know, I got, I got sober in AA. It keeps me sober. It's an incredible community. And, you know, it's, you know, and my participation in that community is the number one priority in my life. So, you know, I'm a champion of it. And I'm always constantly saying, like, people need to set aside whatever preconceived ideas they have about what it is and what it isn't, and just, you know, show up and with an open mind and listen. And I've seen incredible miracles happen there. But in terms of my open mindedness, I'm not going to be the person who says it's the only way to get sober. I mean, both of you guys are examples of people who've gotten sober, you know, via different modalities, or in ways of your own choosing. So.

• 58:13Rich Roll?

  You know, that being said, like, I'm certainly not going to be dismissive of 12-step either. You know, like, I think it's, I think it's one, I think it's a, it's a miracle of our time that not only has it persisted over the years, but it continues to grow and flourish and hasn't sort of, you know, self-destructed because human beings are behind it. The most fucked up, you know, human beings you can possibly imagine. I mean, just think about this for a minute. You're going to get together all these insane alcoholics and addicts who are all completely fucking out of their minds, right?

• 58:45Mishka Shubaly?

  See, this sounds awesome. It's just a sobriety thing.

• 58:48Rich Roll?

  And there's an organization.

• 58:49Mishka Shubaly?

  Sounds like an awesome party until...

• 58:52Rich Roll?

  Explain to me how this organization didn't just completely implode within 30 days of its being constructed, you know?

• 58:59Mishka Shubaly?

  Sheer force of human will. It's a, it's an incredible thing.

• 59:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it's helped, you know, thousands and thousands of people. And like, look, a lot of people relapse and die. Like, I know a guy who, I just found out the other day, who I knew quite well, relapsed and died. I mean, that is just part and parcel of, you know, being an addict and an alcoholic. I mean, this is real-life shit. The consequences are as high as they get. You're on the razor's edge.

• 59:22Mishka Shubaly?

  I'm, I'm not anti AA, and I hope that I've never present, you know, misrepresented myself as being anti AA.

• 59:28Rich Roll?

  This is the kind of jocular, you know, tennis match that we're always in.

• 59:32Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, no, but I just, um, I, I just praise other, other methods of getting there. That's all. I just think that there needs to be more different, you know, for every, I mean, and look at it, so AA is this miracle that happened. Can't we conceptualize in our mind eight, or nine, or 10, or 20 other similar miracles like AA happening that still help people get to sobriety and to the life that we've found?

• 59:59Rich Roll?

  The only thing I would say to that is that when I get contacted, and I do every single day, from people who are out there, who are struggling, who, you know, can't, can't get sober, um, I don't, I'm not going to be the person to say to that person, "Oh, well, you can do it your own way." I'm going to be like, "Here's what you do," and I give them very concrete, direct actions that they can take that have, in my experience, you know, proven to work when they're done, you know, with, when they're done properly, as opposed to like, "Well, there's lots of ways, like, you go figure it out." Like, you know, that's, I can't, I can't say that to that person.

• 1:00:35Mishka Shubaly?

  I I smile because one of my writing students like, you know, he he wants me to explain, oh, how do I get from here to here? And I'm like, well, fucking figure it out, dude. You need to be able to know how to do this. I can tell you how it's done. But as a writer, you need to be able to solve these problems. And every time I say, figure it out, he like threatens my life.

• 1:00:53John Joseph?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:54Mishka Shubaly?

  So.

• 1:00:56John Joseph?

  I have a friend that uh is very involved in the in the ayahuasca community and um. And you know, he recently told me something because, you know, I kind of slagged it, that whole hallucinogenic thing in my book. And, you know, at first, just the ego, I'm like, what are you talking about, man? It's fucking drugs. And then I'm like, wait a minute. You know, this guy's helping people that have been stone cold, straight up.

• 1:01:25John Joseph?

  You know, Jonathan Shaw, the famous tattoo artist and everything. And he's a really good friend of mine. I knew, you know.

• 1:01:32Mishka Shubaly?

  Was he the one who did that book?

• 1:01:34John Joseph?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35John Joseph?

  And he's uh he's done a bunch of books. John Johnny Depp put out his book.

• 1:01:42John Joseph?

  But he goes, hey, man, you know, like, I just want to tell you. I have a ton of respect for everything, you know, you did. And we sat down, we were at Juice Press in New York. He goes, but listen, man. You know, you shouldn't be dissing this. This is a, this is a ceremony. This is like, you know, some magical stuff that's going on. And I've helped people um that have been stone cold fucking junkies for 20 fucking years and nothing worked for them. And they got sick of going to the rooms. It just, all of that stuff. And then we go down and we do these ayahuasca ceremonies under, you know, a master that knows how to do

• 1:02:25John Joseph?

  the whole thing. And he's like, dude, they they just fucking gave up the drugs. And I'm like, you know what? I said, you know what, bro? You're you're right. And and I won't uh. It's not for me, but I'm not gonna diss something that's helping a lot of fucking people. And they were able to clean up and get off drugs through that particular um.

• 1:02:52Mishka Shubaly?

  Modality.

• 1:02:52John Joseph?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Mishka Shubaly?

  I mean, one of the kind of core.

• 1:02:56Rich Roll?

  Uh, sayings in recovery is like, you know, don't, don't succumb to contempt prior to investigation.

• 1:03:05John Joseph?

  That's what he told me. He goes, he gave me that fucking quote. He said, that's what he read to me. He, he, he gave, he told me that. And I was like, yo, you're fucking right.

• 1:03:14Rich Roll?

  And I say that, yeah, and I say that to people who have a lot of baggage around God, right? Or AA, or they just, they have this, they have this concept or this image that was formed through a television show or whatever about what it is. And I just say, you know, don't, don't succumb to contempt prior to investigation. Go check it out. And, and I too have voiced opinions about ayahuasca in the past, but I've never done it. So in many ways, that's contempt prior to investigation. And I too

• 1:03:40John Joseph?

  So you're here.

• 1:03:41Rich Roll?

  know of people whose lives have been improved as a result of that experience, but also like you, it's not for me. Like, I'm not gonna take such a powerful mind altering substance into my body at this point in my evolution. Like, I don't think it would be wise and I don't feel like I need it. But I also can't discount the truth that certain people have been impacted positively as a result of that. And I know that like people like Gabor Maté take addicts through this experience and have had positive results. But I also know people who then, I wouldn't call it a dependence or an addiction, but continue to go back to those experiences time and time again. It's like, I don't know anyone who's walking

• 1:04:24Rich Roll?

  around enlightened because of ayahuasca. Like, we kind of, you know, go back to our set point. Maybe that set point moves a little bit for certain people. But if I see a guy who's doing it every weekend, or doing it every month,

• 1:04:39John Joseph?

  That's in itself is an addiction.

• 1:04:42Rich Roll?

  You and I know people that do that. You know what I mean? So that's where I start to think, well, if this is so effective, then why do you have to keep doing it?

• 1:04:50John Joseph?

  Right.

• 1:04:50Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Or, and they'll call it, they'll call it the work. And like, and again, I don't have any experience with it. So I'm not saying this with judgment. This is pure observation.

• 1:04:59Mishka Shubaly?

  Whenever you guys change your mind and you want to do it, let me know.

• 1:05:03Rich Roll?

  We're gonna all do it together?

• 1:05:05Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, we'll go in together.

• 1:05:07John Joseph?

  That's a podcast. That's a fucking podcast.

• 1:05:10Rich Roll?

  You know, you're gonna feel like what you felt like last night, or maybe how you feel right now.

• 1:05:15Mishka Shubaly?

  That one of the things I just before I forget in discussions of AA and my resistance to AA, you know, the, you know, John, you know, pulled up a perfect example of this and I do have resistance to AA and I have problems with the structure of it. And at every point when I'm being critical of AA, I always feel like I have to move very carefully and very delicately because fortunately I have people like you in my life who have benefited from so much wisdom from the rooms, shit that I hear in my day to day life that resonates with me hardcore and come to find out later that it's, it's, you know, it's an old AA truism or it's from directly out of the big book or whatever. So, you know, I mean, I, I hope you don't think that I'm coming out,

• 1:05:59Mishka Shubaly?

  you know, fucking knives and guns and all that shit, you know, but because I know that I, you know, second or third hand, my life has been enriched by the wisdom of people in the rooms.

• 1:06:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:09Mishka Shubaly?

  So I, I hope you know that when I am critical about specific things, it's, it is in the most sort of like loving, respectful way possible because I know

• 1:06:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:18Mishka Shubaly?

  that I've benefited from.

• 1:06:19Rich Roll?

  It's still so funny to me too, though, because like you said, all right, set aside the God part of it, right? You're like, I have problems with the structure. Like for me, it's like, all right, a group of people who kind of share a certain kind of problem get together and they, they talk about it. They share their experience, their strength, their hope, uh, from a perspective of trying to be of service to each other, a support system. And then there are these tools like, hey, if you do these like things, like kind of take inventory of like how you've lived your life and you, you know, you, you mend these bridges with the people that you've hearted. Like, these are all, you know, ancient traditions that transcend a book and a room and a program and a group of people that, you know, if you detach from the labeling around it would just

• 1:07:03Rich Roll?

  be like kind of smart, common sense things to do to kind of, you know, improve yourself in your life experience.

• 1:07:09Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, I have that group around the world in my life, man. It's awesome. They're like everywhere I go and a lot of them are like fans of yours, you know, so.

• 1:07:17Rich Roll?

  I don't know how you go into these, these bars night after night that like that would wear on my soul.

• 1:07:22Mishka Shubaly?

  I just remember how I feel right now.

• 1:07:24Rich Roll?

  People drinking all the time.

• 1:07:25Mishka Shubaly?

  I just remember it, this dog shit feeling.

• 1:07:28John Joseph?

  I mean, for me too, like, one of the things I always said was growing up, music, how important it was in my life, you know, my father was. Breaking in raping my mother and beating her and it was always the music that um you know to address what you're doing cuz you're getting something out of it that's what keeps you going for five months on the road. And when I was in the foster homes, it was always music. When I was on the streets, it was music. When I was locked up, it was music. And then I got the gift from HR who took the mic and said, yo, get out there in eighty one to play music. And I always would get in the worst

• 1:08:11John Joseph?

  places in my life when I walked away from the music. It's it's part of the whole process for me too of of staying sober is having those shared experiences with people uh in a room. It doesn't have to be in a room doing the twelve step program. A room to me is like we're playing for all these people and then you have these amazing conversations afterwards and it's not involved, it's not revolving around, you know, we're fucking smoking weed and having fucking drinks and doing all this shit. It was always like we're having these like fucking philosophical discussions and

• 1:08:51John Joseph?

  what's interesting is I won't mention the person's name, but even the walk in tours uh some dude hit me up and was like got out of prison and he's no fucking joke. He's a fucking big, fucking strong, tattooed, fucking maniac. Has kids, got out of prison and was like um I fucking had a gun and I was gonna fucking end my life cuz I went back to addiction. And uh I started listening to the podcast Rich Roll and listening to the message and got your books and all this stuff and like and I was like, but at first he was like you know, I'm gonna write John on fucking Instagram and me write this dude and I just happened to be

• 1:09:36John Joseph?

  fucking looking at my phone and he's sitting there with a fucking gun and he was like, if I don't hear if I don't get to talk to somebody now, I'm gonna fucking end it. And it was, I was like, holy shit. And he came out on the walking tour and was like-

• 1:09:53Rich Roll?

  So what'd you say to him? So you just re-

• 1:09:55John Joseph?

  Yeah, I just kept going, listen, man, yeah, he just- Talk, I just kept telling him about the positivity, man. Don't isolate, don't do this, you listen, you gotta get past it. The fucking, check out my book, do this, do that. Go on these podcasts, listen to this shit. Like, we all been there. Like, he didn't say- The words never came to me that I had a gun and I'm sitting there. It was always like, he just kept it, he, he was asking me questions. I found out later because he came on the walking tour-

• 1:10:25Rich Roll?

  When he came on the tour, then he told you?

• 1:10:26John Joseph?

  He fucking waited till everybody else left. And he was like, dude, I just want you to know, like, that day I was gonna end my life. And like, the fact that you responded to me. And that's the power too of, you know, the social media and the meeting of people in the rooms and it, you know, and, and the gigs and the concerts. It's like, I think there's so much good that can come out of that too. Like, there's so, it's a platform, you know, to, to really do a lot of good shit. And I find like, when I step away from the music and i- i- it's kinda like part of the whole thing for me is, uh, to be doing this and, um, using these platforms, uh-

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's your relationship to the platform and how you use it.

• 1:11:10John Joseph?

  It's like a metaphorical room because like, you know-

• 1:11:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14John Joseph?

  You're fucking, you're getting people hitting you up too, like, fucking, and it's like, doesn't necessarily have to be we walk into the basement of a fucking church, but it's there nonetheless, it's-

• 1:11:25Rich Roll?

  The room is where you create it, you know? Yeah, I get that. I mean, I, I, I threw out a, a tweet thread on New Year's when I was in Australia, basically saying like, you know, it's always a gift on New Year's Day to wake up sober. That's when you really like, you're like- Yeah, and it was a bunch of stuff about like, cause a lot of people are gonna wake up on New Year's Day feeling like shit and, you know, thinking like, it's day one and I'm not off to a good start and maybe it's time to reevaluate. So I, every year I kinda throw something out like that. And I just ended the thread by saying, you know, my DMs are always open to anybody who's, you know, in that state right now and wants to talk. And I just got tons of messages and made sure that I responded to all of those. And like, that's, that's the service and that's what it's

• 1:12:07Rich Roll?

  about. And that you could, you know, there's a lot of problems with social media and, you know, on a macro level, what it's doing to culture and society. But if you can use it for that purpose, you know, and

• 1:12:19John Joseph?

  Like today, I read-

• 1:12:19Rich Roll?

  leverage it to be of service, it's an incredible tool.

• 1:12:22John Joseph?

  Today, I read your post about the Australian fires because you were there watching it firsthand. And it's just, I mean, it brings fucking tears when I'm seeing what's happening to these animals. And you posted some charity links, which I'm going to be donating to, and the money goes right to the organizations. And it's just like, we have to, as a fucking, humanity needs to start making a global shift away from what the fuck we're doing and the path we're taking. And this, you know, so many signs of it. I just saw another documentary about Venice that the sea level's rising, the place is going under fucking water, and they're losing these museums and

• 1:13:05John Joseph?

  history. And they're freaking the fuck out. And just everything that's going on. And I made a post yesterday, and it was like, you know, if somebody's saying, what if we create, what if it's a hoax and we created a better world for nothing? Like,

• 1:13:21Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, I saw that.

• 1:13:22John Joseph?

  It's like, fucking come on, man. Like, dude, like, you know. But speaking of social media, I don't know if it's-

• 1:13:31Rich Roll?

  What a waste of time and energy.

• 1:13:33John Joseph?

  You know, I just saw your post and because you were over there.

• 1:13:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was over there for a month.

• 1:13:39John Joseph?

  Were you affected by the fires? I mean, where were you?

• 1:13:43Rich Roll?

  I was in Sydney for most of the time. And Sydney is not under imminent threat from the city burning down. I think- You know, I could be wrong, but I believe that the closest bushfires are something like 50 kilometers away. So it's not as if you can see the fires from the city. But when the wind's blowing a certain way, as it does on most days, the air was, you know, the air quality was unbelievably poor. And there were definitely days where, you know, I'd go outside and think this is not a good idea. And you'd walk around and people got, they have masks on, the sky is orange, you know, walking around the opera house, you couldn't see, you couldn't see across the, yeah, you couldn't see across the harbor.

• 1:14:25Rich Roll?

  The bridge was obscured because of the smoke. It was bad, you know, really bad. So I didn't see the fires firsthand. And what's interesting is how you normalize what's happening. Because I was there for, you know, this is, these fires have been going on for four months, right? And I was there well after they had begun. And it's gotten worse since I left. And I know I've been talking to friends there, the air quality is even worse than it was when I was there. But everyone's, you know, it's not like life stops. People are going to work and going about their day because what else are you going to do? And even being there, it's hard to grasp the scope and the size and the sheer devastation

• 1:15:07Rich Roll?

  and the impact of what's happening there. I mean, it would be as if, you saw those maps of Australia superimposed over the United States with the fires. And it's like, it would be as if, you know, fires are burning from Miami to Portland, Maine, you know, like, and then up around across to Chicago or something like that. You know, it's unbelievable. So, you know, what do we do? Like, it's in that first post that I made about that, I mean, I think that the impulse is to feel powerless and that the world is out of control. And there's a kind of desperation or, you know, sort of a hopelessness that comes with, you know, acknowledging that level of dystopia. But, you know, the truth is, there are things that we can do. There are these relief organizations where we can be immediately of need to the

• 1:15:52Rich Roll?

  people who need that. And then there are ways of dealing with and addressing the macro problems that are, you know, shifting the tectonic plates that lead to these sorts of things. And they're less sexy. And, and They don't necessar- I think we need change at the highest level and it's important to, you know, let our governments know what's acceptable and what isn't, but there are changes that we can make right now in our homes and in our daily habits that don't seem like they're connected to this problem, but ultimately are. And if we want to solve these problems, we do need to take responsibility for those choices and how we're living our lives on a daily basis.

• 1:16:32John Joseph?

  I mean, there's, I just saw a huge disconnect, like all the Amazon that's being cleared and burned to graze cattle and grow crops to feed the cattle. And it's like the Amazon of the lungs of the fucking planet. And it's like, nobody really said anything about that or, and, and then like now-

• 1:16:53Rich Roll?

  These fires dwarf that in size.

• 1:16:55John Joseph?

  Yeah, but-

• 1:16:55Rich Roll?

  Not that they're being cleared for cattle.

• 1:16:58John Joseph?

  The rainforests all over the planet. They're doing that everywhere now. Like, my friend said to me, like, "How come nobody talked about what's going on in Indonesia and all that, what they're doing over there?" And I think it's-

• 1:17:12Rich Roll?

  That's what about-ism though.

• 1:17:14John Joseph?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Rich Roll?

  Anytime you, you sort of shine a light on something, then says, "Well, what about this? You're talking about this, but nobody," you know, it's like, that's not productive.

• 1:17:22John Joseph?

  Right.

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  You know, or, or if you say, "Hey, there's a problem here, let's look at it." Then, then, you know, or somebody attacks you because you flew on an airplane. It's like, "Yeah, I flew on an airplane." Like, I'm not, I don't, you know, I don't live a zero carbon emissions life.

• 1:17:39John Joseph?

  Right.

• 1:17:39Rich Roll?

  And I've never said that I do. There are certain things that I do, I have habits around that hopefully are part of the solution, but I'm not perfect. And, you know, like I say this all the time, like I have an iPhone. Where do the, where do these minerals in this phone come from? Like, you know, I'm complicit in whatever that system is that creates that, that probably is creating a lot more harm than good. So it's, it's not about puritanism, but I think it's about raising collective consciousness and awareness.

• 1:18:06John Joseph?

  Oh, absolutely. Mishk?

• 1:18:10Mishka Shubaly?

  The, uh, I want to steer this back to, to a, uh, something we talk, we always talk about, the, um, the service thing. You know, the, um, because when you're confronted with all these huge problems, it's like, well, what, like, what can I do? How can I help? You know? The, and, and also like the, you know, the attacks you get from people of like, "Oh, you have an iPhone, you flew on a plane, all that shit." I think that's one of the reasons why I struggled with the idea of service initially is because I feel like if you're a sober alcoholic or, you know, drug addict and you come out of, either you come out of rehab or you come out of a program or you come out of fucking white knuckling it in your room and then people are like, oh, you now

• 1:18:52Mishka Shubaly?

  need to be a better human being than everybody else. You know, I, to me, it just felt like, I don't know, that, not that like, not that sober addicts and alcoholics should get a break necessarily, but they shouldn't have, you know, they shouldn't have, like, this service thing should apply to everybody or nobody.

• 1:19:14Rich Roll?

  So what are you saying specifically? I mean, certainly, well, it's not about, like, it goes back to not being about puritanism. Like, as they say, we are not saints. It's about spiritual, you know, progress, not spiritual perfection. And the truth is, if you've cobbled together a few days of sobriety, then you have a kernel of experience that would be beneficial to somebody who can't get one day. You know what I mean? And for the amount of time that you've remained sober, to somebody who's in that position, you're like a god. Like, how, how would, you know, how is that even possible that that guy could do that? And, and that, you know, so detaching that from whatever other decisions you're making in your life that, that, you know, make you an angel or

• 1:19:58Rich Roll?

  a devil, like, let go of all of that and just focus on the fact that you've been able to string together some time without drinking or using drugs. And, and how can you communicate a message to that person who's in that vicious cycle, who feels like they could never escape it, so that they can hit the pillow that night, just one night, without, without getting loaded?

• 1:20:17Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, part of this goes back to the, oh, you're replacing one addiction with another, that kind of shit, too. You know, where I feel like, you know, sober alcoholics and addicts are like subjected to all this bullshit from people who like feel like it's their business to, to weigh in on our lives and the decisions that we're making and like, oh, is that healthy for you to be running the amount that you are and that kind of shit? And somebody asked me point blank, you know, like, what do you think your debt is to, to other people, you know, trying to get sober? And I said, nothing. I, I owe them nothing. I'm-

• 1:20:54Mishka Shubaly?

  If I help people, it's gonna be because I want to and not because I have some fucking obligation. It's not like you need to do your homework or you need to clean your room. You know, I, I mean, and that's the thing about my sobriety is like, I got sober on my own. I didn't lean on anybody else, you know? And so like, I'm happy to have written what I've written and I'm happy to help people where I can. But I hate this idea of I'm down with, I'm coming around. I came around on PMA, I came around on plant-based, I'm coming around on service. But I, it's just the, I guess it's the mode of entry of, you know, that like newly sober addicts are compelled

• 1:21:33Mishka Shubaly?

  to do this, you know, rather than here's an opportunity for you to. You're looking at me like.

• 1:21:42Rich Roll?

  Are you done?

• 1:21:43Mishka Shubaly?

  No, go for it.

• 1:21:46Mishka Shubaly?

  First of all, I would call, I would, first of all.

• 1:21:51Rich Roll?

  I would, I would call into question that you got sober on your own. I know you want to believe that and I think that that's on some level a delusion. I, I think that you got sober because you're surrounded by people that love you and they may not have been, you know, wrapping your knuckles and telling you what to do specifically. But don't discount the impact that, you know, your family members and your friends may have had on your sober story. That's one thing. And I think that.

• 1:22:22John Joseph?

  Yeah, go ahead. Know how your addiction, you just spent time with your, your old man, right?

• 1:22:28Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, that's a whole other thing.

• 1:22:31John Joseph?

  I know it crossed your mind at some point, what your, so what your addictions were doing to the other people that.

• 1:22:38Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, absolutely. Right, the connection. That's, that's what, you know, we keep talking about when music, when performing was, it all comes back to connection.

• 1:22:46Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and, and that connection is fundamental to you getting sober and staying sober. Right? The fact that you have connection to other human beings.

• 1:22:55Mishka Shubaly?

  And there have absolutely been times when I've been in those fucking dank, wet bars when I think of the two of you. And that's, you know, one part of the barricade.

• 1:23:02Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so, you know, my voice is in your head on some level or JJ's is in your head when you're in a situation that you know is somewhat precarious.

• 1:23:11Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:23:12Mishka Shubaly?

  Absolutely.

• 1:23:13Rich Roll?

  So how much are you doing this alone? So there's that. The second thing is, we can move along. The second thing.

• 1:23:21Mishka Shubaly?

  Cause you proved your point? No, I get to rebut too. I rebut your rebuttal.

• 1:23:27Rich Roll?

  I think there is a spiritual truism that if you want to keep something, you have to give it away. Right? Like if you want to be loved, you have to give love. If you want to stay sober, you have to be of service to other people who are struggling in sobriety. If you, whatever it is that you, and if you hold on too tightly to a certain thing, that's a sure path to losing it. So I think that is baked into this idea of what service is. It's not like, hey, go be a good boy scout and you must, you know, you are compelled to be of service, but there is a priority or a, or a, um, you know, a lot of energy behind kind of getting people energized around that because that's what keeps people sober.

• 1:24:06Rich Roll?

  So I know that if I'm on the phone on the daily with somebody who's in and out and who is struggling, that that makes me,

• 1:24:17Rich Roll?

  work my program more strongly because you can't give away something you haven't got. And I'm duplicitous if I'm telling that person to do one thing and I'm not practicing it myself. So it keeps me honest. So the giving it away really, I get, I get more out of that than that person. That person may, you know, never get sober, but it's like an insurance policy for myself that I know that whatever that guy or woman or whoever, whatever that person does, like, I'm pretty sure that my head will hit that pillow sober tonight.

• 1:24:46Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. I, listen, I totally agree. And, and I mean, that's what I said, you know, when I'm coming around to the idea of service. Cause like, you know, when, the rare instances where I've done something to help another person, I always feel good about it.

• 1:24:57Rich Roll?

  And I know, I know, I know. Cause we've talked about this too. And it, I think it really puts life into you. And I see you doing it on social media and I, I think there's a sustenance to that, that, maybe because you're so recalcitrant, you're refusing to just embrace, you know? There's a certain level of cynicism with you.

• 1:25:20John Joseph?

  I'm like, I get you because I know you, but somebody else looking at you would be like,

• 1:25:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Mishka Shubaly?

  The, but do you see the point that I'm making though?

• 1:25:30Rich Roll?

  I do.

• 1:25:30Mishka Shubaly?

  That I, I feel like we put a lot of pressure on people who are newly sober to be too good to give back too much too fast. And

• 1:25:40Rich Roll?

  I don't think that's necessarily true though. I think that's, that, that's, that's a projection on some level also. And what I see, and I'll let you finish in a second, but my question to you is you, you hold on so tightly to this ideology or this perspective. And my question to you is, what would happen if you just let go of all that?

• 1:26:00Mishka Shubaly?

  Oh shit, here comes the next challenge, right?

• 1:26:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:03Mishka Shubaly?

  The

• 1:26:04John Joseph?

  The war of art, man. Resistance, baby.

• 1:26:07Mishka Shubaly?

  The, uh, now I just feel like you and JJ found a way to poison me in Mexico. So I would come in here in a weakened state.

• 1:26:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're like an injured animal right now.

• 1:26:18John Joseph?

  We actually had somebody feed you in Mexico.

• 1:26:20Mishka Shubaly?

  I'm fucking hanging on to this table so I don't fall over.

• 1:26:24Rich Roll?

  Go ahead.

• 1:26:24Mishka Shubaly?

  The, um, but you see my point though about the, um, oh, you're replacing one addiction with another, that kind of shit. Like I, that's not helpful. And, and I, I think, uh, you know, the three of us and lots of other people like, um, you know, survive, have survived bad advice or bad input or useless information from people like that early on. And that, and it's, it's stuff that doesn't propel you forward. And if anything, it's, it's stuff that pushes you back and it makes you think like, oh, well, fuck this. I should just go have a drink and not put up with this horse shit.

• 1:26:56Rich Roll?

  I get you, but I, I think, uh, a counterpoint to that is that we're not always the most objective.

• 1:27:05Rich Roll?

  When it comes to our decision-making, right? And, you know, I think any rational person would say, like, if you have a big decision to make or you're acting in a certain way, like run that by people that you trust and respect and get their feedback on that.

• 1:27:19Mishka Shubaly?

  That's what my, that's what my mom lives four houses down, dude.

• 1:27:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'll be like, you know, thinking that I'm on this great path and it will take another person who knows me well, that I'm very connected with to say, hey, man, like I, I see you, you know, doing this thing over here, like, Do you ever think like, maybe, you know, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, and I'll be like, wow, I never would have thought that. Or, you know, maybe I disagree, but you've been right about so many other things. Like, I need to rethink that. You know, so I think it's just being a sounding board and, you know, I need somebody to reflect back my own behavior because I'm not so good at taking on a stock of it because my ego gets involved and all my character defects cloud my perspective so that I don't see it clearly.

• 1:28:02Mishka Shubaly?

  I mean, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. You know, I mean, I think, and I think that, you know, and we've talked about this before, that like, it probably would have benefited me early on and now to lean on people more than I do. You know, that like, you know, last night, when I was like, lying there thinking I was gonna die, I was like, well, there's a good, it's a good thing there's nobody around because then I would cry to them. And instead of just laying there fucking by myself, you know, the, I couldn't even get the dog to come over and like cuddle me. The, and I, you know, and I don't have any fantasy that like, I exist in a vacuum. And I've tried to, and that's stupid. And that's why I understand how stupid it is. And, you know, and we've talked so much, you know, on this podcast about

• 1:28:44Mishka Shubaly?

  connection and the power of behind that of, I mean, that's the only way that I know to make sense of all this shit that we deal with on this earth is like, connection between people, you know, loving one another, communicating with people, you know, so I absolutely believe in all of that. I'm just, you know, I, I just, the, I just think that we put too much on newly sober people when the, I think, I think people need to choose service. That's one, that's one of my favorite things about you, dude, is that when fucking JJ was busting my balls about the garbage that I used to eat, you were always like, no, it's fine. He can, he can just eat whatever, you know, and like,

• 1:29:27Rich Roll?

  Did I say that?

• 1:29:27Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, no, you said, no, you, I mean, you were, you were like, you know, just, you know, try it for a month or try eating more plants or whatever, you know, and now it's been whatever, two and a half years since I've eaten meat and I'm not going back. And, but also like, you know, JJ was like, I was chewing gum one time and you were like, here,

• 1:29:45Rich Roll?

  Aspartame.

• 1:29:46Mishka Shubaly?

  You're like, spit that shit out. And I was like, what? What the fuck? And I did, you know, because when JJ tells you to do something, you do it. But having the two of you, having the good angel, And the devil, one on each shoulder, that have that multiplicity, that that was incredibly helpful to me and that's helped me move forward. And that's the same reason why I advocate for more, more ways of getting sober, um, you know, is when you have more options like that, you know, that, you know, it's like if, you know, to go back to the old tired analogy, you know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, you know, it's like when my cat doesn't want to eat, you know, I could like shove her head in the bowl and she won't eat.

• 1:30:29Mishka Shubaly?

  But if I like rattle a little bit of food in my hand and then sort of sneak it away from her, she's like, you know, what's in your hand? You know, then she'll, she wants to say, oh, well, what is that? And then when she feels like she's getting something from you, she'll eat, you know, I can take it right out of the bowl and put it in my hand. It's just presentation.

• 1:30:45Rich Roll?

  I got you. I, I think we could go in circles on this for a long time and I don't know how productive that is, but I have to say maybe one final thing and then we could talk about some other stuff. And that is that you cannot solve a problem with the same mentality that created it. And if you're fucked up on drugs and alcohol and you're making decisions in a certain way, if you think that you're going to solve that problem with that same brain that is making those decisions, then you're, you're lost. Like it's, it's not going to work, right? Like you've got to get a different perspective. And I don't think, I would take issue with this, this supposition that, that, that 12 step puts too much pressure on newly sober people to be of service. I don't think that's necessarily true.

• 1:31:29Mishka Shubaly?

  I wasn't even taking a swipe at 12 step with that. Or just now I think it's just the, the community at large, you know, that like people who aren't part-

• 1:31:36Rich Roll?

  I mean, when you're, when you're newly sober, it's all about like helping that person get sober and like everything else gets tabled until later, until they've, you know,

• 1:31:43Mishka Shubaly?

  Not in my experience, dude. I've had people who I didn't even know, like fucking come at me with shit.

• 1:31:47John Joseph?

  There's a lot of people that are in the programs that ain't the best.

• 1:31:49Rich Roll?

  Right, I got you.

• 1:31:50John Joseph?

  Like Michael, let's take for instance, Michael Alago, right? Who signed Metallica. He has the, the film, who the fuck is that guy? Here's a person who's worked, Cyndi Lauper, Nina Simone, you, you want to talk about who's who in the music business? And he's, never talks about it, but every single morning, no matter what he's doing, he goes in and he sets up the fucking chairs, he sets up the room, he gets the coffee. And the way I've seen him-

• 1:32:24John Joseph?

  And the compassion and understanding and love and patience that he gives to newly sober people. Uh, it's, it's, it's incredible. And that is, I think, what has the most effect. Uh, and the time that he gives of himself to call these people and follow up, never like being heavy-handed. I don't think if somebody was heavy-handed with me when I was coming off crack, I would have fuck, knocked them the fuck out, to tell you the truth. It was people with a lot of compassion that were like, hey, man, like, you know, this is what, you know, this is what you need.

• 1:33:08Rich Roll?

  How you doing?

• 1:33:09John Joseph?

  Yeah, like just some, some compassion there. Like, I really felt like they were truly, honestly concerned for my well-being. And I think there's a lot of people that are in the, in the 12-step program and NANA that do that same thing and, um, have helped, uh, a ton of people, you know, and, and Michael Lago is a great example of it. And he doesn't brag about what he does. He doesn't put anybody's dirt out there. It's just, he's doing it, it's selfless service. He's not getting anything out of it because he doesn't even talk about it. But what you were saying, it helps his own sobriety.

• 1:33:49Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:33:50John Joseph?

  Hundred percent. And I find it for myself, too. It's, when I'm talking to people, I'm constantly reminding myself of those same, uh, facts, of those experiences of, uh, of what it was like. I can empathize with this person's suffering and be like, holy shit, I was fucking there, man. I know what that person's feeling like.

• 1:34:11Rich Roll?

  And also, it helps you revisit that and connect with that so that you don't go back there.

• 1:34:14John Joseph?

  Absolutely.

• 1:34:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The, uh.

• 1:34:17John Joseph?

  Tell you fucking wrong.

• 1:34:20John Joseph?

  I love you, bro.

• 1:34:22Mishka Shubaly?

  The, the best shows that I've had in this last year are, we started doing shows at my house in Phoenix and just, and I, cause like, I know how fucking hard it is to get a gig and a gig that pays, um, when you're on the road. So we've just been doing house shows for people when they come through. And like, I usually don't even play. I usually just, I host, I, we have a door that we took off like one of the.

• 1:34:45Rich Roll?

  So your version of Bisbee, like Doug's?

• 1:34:48Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, yeah. The, uh, we, the stage is just a door that we took off.

• 1:34:52John Joseph?

  I've seen the fucking picture, dude.

• 1:34:54Mishka Shubaly?

  It's just, it's just a door with a mic stand. You laugh. Next time you're in town, you're gonna do one of those for us.

• 1:34:59John Joseph?

  I'm there, dude.

• 1:35:00Mishka Shubaly?

  You too, man. But that's, those are the best fucking shows, man. And those are like the best nights of my life, you know, like, but the happiest, man, oh my.

• 1:35:08Rich Roll?

  Cause that's where you feel most connected.

• 1:35:10Mishka Shubaly?

  My friend Kristen Becker came through. She's telling jokes about fucking prolapses. My mom is sitting like right in front of her, like laughing her ass off. And I was like, this is what, this is how we make sense of like the fucking carnage of humanity is to just talk about everything together, you know, and to like, to have all these people in my, my, uh, my, my, my BFF Robin and her girlfriend, uh, but man, then Sam and his buddy on their Harleys. There's, we got the bikers and the lesbians. And I was like, uh-oh. And I walked over there and they're like, they're both just talking shit about me. And I was like, all right, cool. We're good. We're good. Yeah. But so I get it, man. You know, it's like those, I, I live for those shows, man. They've been fucking awesome. We're gonna, we're trying to do them every month now.

• 1:35:52Rich Roll?

  Cool. Good deal, man.

• 1:36:02Rich Roll?

  So tell me about the new book that's coming out.

• 1:36:05Mishka Shubaly?

  The, um, January.

• 1:36:06Rich Roll?

  This van could be your life.

• 1:36:07Mishka Shubaly?

  Oh God.

• 1:36:08Rich Roll?

  Wow. Those are other like John reached, there's, there's Mishka's book. See at the bottom of that stack right there?

• 1:36:13Mishka Shubaly?

  The bottom.

• 1:36:14Rich Roll?

  I swear I'll make it up to you. The bottom of the stack, huh?

• 1:36:18John Joseph?

  Yeah, buddy. I swear I'll make it up to you.

• 1:36:23Rich Roll?

  There we go.

• 1:36:24John Joseph?

  Fucking genius.

• 1:36:26Mishka Shubaly?

  I gotta get a screen cap of John.

• 1:36:28John Joseph?

  A life on the low road.

• 1:36:32John Joseph?

  You're a wordsmith, bro. I swear to God, you fucking.

• 1:36:35Rich Roll?

  See, this is always my thing with you. I'm so glad you got these two pieces coming out because I really think I love your writing, man. I really do. So.

• 1:36:45Mishka Shubaly?

  It's what I do best. I gotta get back to it. I've been fucking, you know, I love the road and it totally energizes me and like it's time for the pendulum to swing the other way.

• 1:36:54Rich Roll?

  In order to have stories to tell, but it's been too long.

• 1:36:57John Joseph?

  Those experiences like just is material for the next.

• 1:37:01Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:02John Joseph?

  Thing, you know?

• 1:37:03Mishka Shubaly?

  The, um, so in, in 2018, when I did the five months on the road, I broke up with my girlfriend, Maddie in Atlanta, because how can you keep a relationship together when one of the person, you know, one of the people was fucking never there? And, uh, and I broke her heart and I broke my heart, you know, the, um, and then I couldn't even like feel bad about it. Cause I knew that I, it was my fucking fault too.

• 1:37:24Rich Roll?

  We talked about that when I saw you in London.

• 1:37:26Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. The, um, that was, I was so grateful to see you then, dude. I can't tell you like, I was just so beat up at that moment. The, um.

• 1:37:34John Joseph?

  Did you ever feel like you were gonna drink again?

• 1:37:36Mishka Shubaly?

  Fuck yeah, dude. Yeah.

• 1:37:38John Joseph?

  So.

• 1:37:38Mishka Shubaly?

  The, uh, I blame you and Rich for their, my failure to relapse.

• 1:37:42Rich Roll?

  But you did it, but you did it alone.

• 1:37:46Mishka Shubaly?

  I did it alone with you, with you. I did it alone with you. There we go. The, um, no, so this, this piece is about, uh, in 2018, like whatever, three months deep into this, I took that, uh, that fucked up, uh, 1976 Chevy camper van. Loaded my sisters and my mom and my, uh, my sister's kids into the van. We drove 2,000 miles up to, uh, Saskatchewan for my mom, for the family reunion. My mom comes from a family of 17 kids and, uh, and she had just lost her brother the year before, the first of the 17 to die. My younger sister, Tashina's, uh, birth father.

• 1:38:24Mishka Shubaly?

  So it was just, it was like really emotional. And then like going into it, man, I was like already insane by the time we got into the van. And it's like, okay, now you have to deal with four little kids driving through the fucking Nevada desert at 115 degrees with no air conditioning and like.

• 1:38:39Rich Roll?

  Did Chung go?

• 1:38:40Mishka Shubaly?

  No, unfortunately he, uh, he didn't go. The.

• 1:38:44Rich Roll?

  Explain who Chung is.

• 1:38:45Mishka Shubaly?

  Chung is.

• 1:38:45Rich Roll?

  You read, I swear I'll make it up to you. It's all like, that guy's the lead character.

• 1:38:50Mishka Shubaly?

  I can't tell you how many messages I've gotten from people who are like, bro, I'm halfway through the book. I gotta know, does Chung ever reappear? I'm like, finish the fucking book, dude. The uh, no Chung's doing good. He's uh, he's in Albuquerque. His son is actually going to uh, to school in Arizona. So I'm gonna uh, try and reconnect with his son soon. But uh, Chung is my Vietnamese foster brother. He was a refugee from Vietnam, came over, spent two years in a refugee camp in Malaysia. Talk about fucking hardcore, the shit that he has seen. The um, and uh, now he lives in Albuquerque. He has a landscaping business. Any of you guys need your uh, yard done in Albuquerque, hit me up, I'll hook you up with Chung.

• 1:39:31Rich Roll?

  Nice.

• 1:39:31Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. But um, but yeah, he was, and then he ran away when I was a teenager. He was gone for 20 years and then just fucking reappeared one day, like.

• 1:39:39Rich Roll?

  And now he's, he's, he's in your life now though, right?

• 1:39:41Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, yeah. We uh, you know, we, we talk regularly and you know, text back and forth and stuff. Yeah.

• 1:39:48Rich Roll?

  So, alright, so this, this family reunion, like why, what, what made you want to write about this? Like, what is this about?

• 1:39:54Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, I just, you know, my, like my family, they're all like redneck, oil people, Trump lovers, you know, the um, you know, the only, only book I ever read was the Bible and that's good enough for me, you know, which I guess that explains a lot. Wow, I didn't just, just figure that one out on air. The um, the, but I love them all. I love them dearly, you know, and uh, and I would fucking take a bullet for any of them. That's my family, you know? And um, so I was trying to sort of like, figure out like, why, you know, why is it so important to me? And also like, I just felt like my family was sort of falling apart. My sister had gone through this fucking rough divorce. And um, you know, they were all on the West Coast and I was in Atlanta and like been in New York

• 1:40:39Mishka Shubaly?

  most of my life. And um, I was just feeling really disconnected from everybody. And then I was like, okay, this is it. This van is gonna, this is like a time machine. We're all just gonna get into the Scooby Doo magic mystery machine. And we're gonna travel together and that journey is gonna turn us back into what we were before, you know, family. And um,

• 1:41:00Rich Roll?

  You created an expectation.

• 1:41:01Mishka Shubaly?

  There were a couple of bumps along the way, Rich.

• 1:41:06Mishka Shubaly?

  But we survived, you know, we survived and I've I've I learned a lot during that trip. One of the things I learned is learning hurts.

• 1:41:18Mishka Shubaly?

  And that, you know, people in my family have an incredible amount of patience for me and the bullshit that I submit them to. But, you know, but since that it's been great, you know, I mean, my like my older sister Tatiana and I, we had some shit that was sort of brewing up between the two of us and we ended up squashing that on that trip. Tashina and I had sort of not, there was not like, no, like bad blood really, but we just sort of fallen out of touch and then doing this trip together. I was like, oh, man, like you, you really chilled out in the last 10 years, you know, the you're not the kid that I remember. And the, you know, and then it ended up perfectly like Tashina and my mom and I like all live in Phoenix now with enough distance between us that we're not, you know, walking on each other. And

• 1:42:06Mishka Shubaly?

  and one of the things I learned too from doing that trip and writing that piece was that I had to cut my dad out of my life. And that's been really hard and incredibly liberating too. You know, there's like, you, you know, you can pump a certain amount of energy into something and at a certain point, you just have to say enough's enough. You know, yeah.

• 1:42:30Rich Roll?

  Did some was it an accumulation of things or did one thing happen that made you?

• 1:42:34Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, I mean, there was a lot of shit, you know, like the, you know, politics now is like such, you know, there's how many divorces have been caused by Trump's election, you know, like the, the for a lot of friends of mine, they were just sort of like, fuck, who is this guy that I married? You know, the and so that, you know, there's been that pressure with my dad, but I've been sort of, you know, I just skirt it. I was like, Dad, you're my dad. I'm not going to talk about this with you because we're just going to fight. So let's talk about fucking classic rock or whatever, you know, the and then the he.

• 1:43:08Mishka Shubaly?

  He was invited to my sister's wedding and, uh, and he said he wasn't going to come because it was, uh, like dishonest and deceitful or, you know, something like that. I was like, yo, no offense dad, but like you were fucking your secretary and you banded your wife and your children. Like you fucking get those words out of your fucking mouth, you know, like we took you back. Like how dare you step to my sister and fucking, you know, she's got four kids. She's working her ass off. You know, she, she was a good kid. She wasn't the drunk. She wasn't the fuck up. Like how fucking dare you? So that was the line for me. He didn't do anything to me. It was my sister, but I was like, if I have to pick one, I'll pick her any day, man.

• 1:43:51Rich Roll?

  Sorry to hear that.

• 1:43:52Mishka Shubaly?

  You know what? It's good. It's been good. It's really, it's like, uh, a weight has lifted.

• 1:43:58Rich Roll?

  And how does everyone in your family feel about the fact that you've written about them? They read it?

• 1:44:03Mishka Shubaly?

  They, they, by this point they tolerate me, you know, the, uh,

• 1:44:09Mishka Shubaly?

  my sister's kids were like, how much are we going to get paid? I was like, fucking nothing.

• 1:44:14Rich Roll?

  How did this come about? You were, you were kind of the golden child of the Kindle Singles, you know, initiative, but that went the way of the dodo, right? Like they discontinued that program. I don't know why. It was cool.

• 1:44:26Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, that, that David Blum, the guy who created it, he moved on to something else. And then they just sort of ran it into the ground where there was like just so much stuff, you know, the, um, so then this is sort of a new sort of, uh, relaunching of it. It's Amazon originals.

• 1:44:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's basically the same idea.

• 1:44:41Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. Yeah. Basically. And that'll be out, uh, January 21st. And then I have an audiobook coming out in March. We gotta do a fucking audiobook together or something, some kind

• 1:44:50Rich Roll?

  Isn't that what we're doing right now?

• 1:44:51Mishka Shubaly?

  I guess a live audiobook, a radio play.

• 1:44:54Rich Roll?

  Um, but that's, that's the cold turkey one. How to quit drinking by not drinking.

• 1:44:59Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:59Rich Roll?

  This is your, this is your self-help manifesto.

• 1:45:01Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. I feel so conflicted about it, dude. I feel so conflicted.

• 1:45:05Rich Roll?

  You know, I've, I've felt deeply doing, doing an edit on this after the podcast.

• 1:45:11Mishka Shubaly?

  What are we doing edits on you motherfucker?

• 1:45:13Rich Roll?

  You want me to have a look at this before?

• 1:45:17Rich Roll?

  You know, we should do, I haven't read it yet and apologies for that.

• 1:45:20Mishka Shubaly?

  Thank, then don't read it. I was like, oh no, the way that Rich is acting, he's already read it.

• 1:45:25Rich Roll?

  For the audiobook, you could just take breaks every 10 minutes or whatever, and then cut to me and I'll, I'll, I'll like give you my reaction to what you say.

• 1:45:34Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. The director's cut.

• 1:45:39Rich Roll?

  But that's cool. That's like a new, you know, you know, you you're a master storyteller, but the kind of self-help genre, you know, this is a new, new like kind of thing for you. I mean, I know you've written articles for The Fix and things like that on on your sober journey, but is this an extrapolation of that?

• 1:45:56Mishka Shubaly?

  I'll be totally honest. I really didn't want to do it. I actively did not want to do it. They just hit me when I was fucking desperate and I needed money.

• 1:46:05Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:46:05Mishka Shubaly?

  And then I was like, okay, fuck, I'll do it. And then when I got into it, I was like, oh, shit, I actually really, really care about this a lot. And this, in some ways, this is like my fucking life's work right here. So it's similar to the long run. I didn't want to write the long run, but David Blum sat me down. He was like, no, this is what you're writing, dude.

• 1:46:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:22Mishka Shubaly?

  So I just, you know, the, yeah, it ended up being, you know, tremendously meaningful to me, and I hope that it helps people.

• 1:46:29Rich Roll?

  But that's going to be audiobook only?

• 1:46:32Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:32Rich Roll?

  As a Kindle also?

• 1:46:34Mishka Shubaly?

  I'm gonna talk to Bird and see if we can sell it as a physical book to the, but right now, it's it's just audiobook.

• 1:46:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:46:40Mishka Shubaly?

  The.

• 1:46:41Rich Roll?

  And JJ, you're writing, you got a cookbook you're working on.

• 1:46:43Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, I was gonna ask what you what you been up to?

• 1:46:45John Joseph?

  Uh, just, um.

• 1:46:48Rich Roll?

  And you got your YouTube show.

• 1:46:50John Joseph?

  Yeah, my YouTube channel, The Hard Truth.

• 1:46:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Did you see his latest video? It's like, real men eat quiche.

• 1:46:57Mishka Shubaly?

  Oh, God.

• 1:46:58John Joseph?

  Real men do fucking eat quiche.

• 1:47:01Rich Roll?

  There you go.

• 1:47:03John Joseph?

  But, uh, yeah, you know, I just do that for fun. I I pay for everything and, uh, you know, just have a good time with it. Try to have, uh, interesting people from time to time. Uh, try to get, uh, uh, Roderick Sewell, you know, the first double amputee to finish Kona was supposed to come on.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:47:23John Joseph?

  Uh, and, um, you know, he couldn't make it. So trying to do that, uh, coming up. And then, uh, I, uh, finished the cookbook. It's being edited, so it's like over a hundred plant-based recipes and a lot of the newer information. It's, uh, you know, out there to help, uh, people, you know, to, uh, lead a healthier, more, you know, productive.

• 1:47:53Rich Roll?

  So the PMA cookbook?

• 1:47:54John Joseph?

  Nah, it's not. It doesn't have anything to do with really mindset too much. I mean, I have.

• 1:47:59Rich Roll?

  What's the title though?

• 1:48:00John Joseph?

  I'm waiting for your self-help. I can't tell you. Cause you know what? When I did Meet Us at Pussies, somebody, I posted on it and somebody fucking took meetusapussies.com and all this shit. And then they wrote me and they're like, yo, I'll sell you the fucking thing. I'm like, yeah, meet me on Avenue D. At two in the morning, I'll have the cash in my pocket, show up. You know, like, so I just, I don't fucking, uh, you know, discussing. We got the thirty to life thing.

• 1:48:29Rich Roll?

  Right. How's that? Is that coming along?

• 1:48:31John Joseph?

  Yeah, it's being edited. I just talked to Kip and Paul DeGelder, Kip Anderson, who did What the Health. And, uh, it's, we're supposed to see it edited, I think in early June or something, the first, first edit of it.

• 1:48:42Rich Roll?

  Right. I think we talked about this last time, but basically you and Paul DeGelder did, did this, um, like limited series where that's being produced by Kip from Conspiracy and What the Health, where you go to these, um, guys who have.

• 1:48:57John Joseph?

  Amity Foundation.

• 1:48:58Rich Roll?

  Right. Who have just gotten out of prison, long-term, you know? Like multiple offenders, like hardcore guys, right? And you go in and you like get their diet sorted out and their lifestyle habits.

• 1:49:08John Joseph?

  The former all-pro linebacker, uh, did, there was a lot of people involved. We had Krishna Das came and chanted with them. It was like all different, uh, people and, and, and bringing different gifts, uh, to the table to help, uh, you know, these guys. Because, you know, the recidivism rate in California is fucking like over 80%. I believe if you do over 10 years, the odds of you going back to prison. And then just seeing, uh, the documentary, the thirteenth, about the 13th amendment, the, what they did to, to, you know, basically legalizing slavery in the prison system and just seeing.

• 1:49:50John Joseph?

  People come out of prison and die and myself being incarcerated for two years and how I changed. I just took it to Paul and I was like, yo, I got this thing and then me and him baked it. And took it to Kip and then Kip did, you know, we, it was organic too at that point. You know, we figured that we were gonna work with homeboy industries. That didn't happen. The producer that he had uh knew this place. Amity Foundation and these are, these motherfuckers went through fucking gladiator school. There was guys that did fucking forty years. San Quentin riots, Chino, you fucking talk about people that been through shit.

• 1:50:30John Joseph?

  And uh what got me the first day was one of the most hardcore motherfuckers. That you ever seen in your life, this guy Hollywood. I named him Hollywood because I was like, this guy's a fucking star. And um he fucking, we sat in a semicircle and everybody, we all went around us. You know, we talked Paul, like they had seen Paul on Shark Week and if you don't know who he is. His No Time For Fear book, whatever. It's fucking amazing. Been on the podcast. Yeah, he's fucking just such a top act. And after we all relayed our stories and Keith went and the other people and then the guys went around the room, this guy.

• 1:51:15John Joseph?

  Got, he just started fucking, he just broke down crying and had to get up and walk the fuck out of room. This is a fucking. Two hundred and twenty pound dude who's been fighting for his life and, and he was like, sorry. And he came back and he was like. I just never had people care about me, you know, and he really felt, we weren't trying to exploit. You uh to get, you know, something onto Netflix or whatever the fuck medium it ends up coming out, a film, whatever. It was like, he really felt like we were there to help and, you know, cause I had read this thing in Sacha Magazine and I talked about it, which.

• 1:51:55John Joseph?

  Sacha means the mode of goodness. And I read this like twenty five years ago about this guy that went into the prison system. And taught people to be plant-based and Buddhist and all this. And this prisoner said, if I had this knowledge. That I'm getting now and he became plant-based and a Buddhist in prison and he was locked up for double homicide. He's never getting out. And I was like, that's so fucking powerful. It never, it never left me the power of the changes that I've seen in my life through, through doing all of this and being of service to others and like Kip's people, the minute they heard it, like we gave

• 1:52:38John Joseph?

  it to Kip on a Wednesday, Friday, he had the funding and then we just went in there. It's thirty to life, it's called, and it was thirty days and to change. Uh, it's a double entendre too, because like, I think thirty to life is the last sentence you could get before double life, which means basically you're probably gonna fucking die in prison. So it's like, and meeting these guys, and I'm still friends with him. As a matter of fact, the Chromags played the fucking, um, uh, the Roxy and they all fucking came and they were up in the fucking balcony, wearing Chromag shirts, all these dudes. And I just turned and I got fucking choked up, man. I was like, looked at these dudes and the place was packed. And I go, these motherfuckers right here.

• 1:53:23John Joseph?

  This is, these are my fucking family over here. And they didn't know what the fuck I did with the Chromags. They were like, holy fucking shit, like, and we did everything that those guys wanted to do. If they wanted to play, play guitar or get a job here or a chef or whatever. It was just amazing people involved and it, it's.

• 1:53:45Rich Roll?

  I met a few of them that, that final day when you did like the ten K down at the beach.

• 1:53:50John Joseph?

  And you came and did the run.

• 1:53:51Rich Roll?

  So I got to meet a couple of them.

• 1:53:52John Joseph?

  And what was amazing, right? The whole community embraced those guys, the running community. They were just like, they, some of these guys never ran a fucking quarter mile, much less what they did. And, and the whole community down there, the running community were fucking waiting for every one of these guys to cross the finish. And funny enough, you were like, we never ran together, you were saying.

• 1:54:13Rich Roll?

  I know. We still have it.

• 1:54:14John Joseph?

  This is the first one.

• 1:54:15Rich Roll?

  I've never run together either. How is that possible?

• 1:54:18John Joseph?

  But it's like.

• 1:54:19Rich Roll?

  It's not happening today with Mishka though.

• 1:54:21John Joseph?

  Yeah. You know.

• 1:54:21Rich Roll?

  This year.

• 1:54:22John Joseph?

  And then Paul had him jumping out of planes and fucking Keith was teaching him yoga. We took him to an animal sanctuary, like they were learning about service, feeding the homeless and one guy. Fucking dude, he was sold into slavery as a fucking child by his uncle or whatever. This guy, uh, John, and, uh, in the south and like fucking his whole life's been in prison and he never met his grandchildren and, and the producers reached out to his family. They cut him off. And they're like, and I wasn't in town because I had to keep going back from the west coast to, to New York for other stuff I had going on, but like the producers and Kip told me, dude,

• 1:55:06John Joseph?

  the fucking, those kids showed up at that airport with signs and balloons, the, the world's best grandpa. And there's not going to be a fucking dry eye because like, you know, I wasn't even there and just the thought of that, that they gave him a chance to reconnect with his family and meet his grandchildren and all this stuff and he's the most, he's the sweetest person. And I always say that too. You don't know how somebody ended. There's a history to how these men and women ended up in prison. It's not cut and dry. It's, and you know, it, and even addiction, there's a, there's a reason why people will slip into that. So you always have to have compassion

• 1:55:51John Joseph?

  and, and understanding and, and that's where, to me, I'm like this pay it forward thing. Really does matter because people reached out to me when I was a mess in nineteen eighty in the Navy. I just came out of lockup two years. I was fucking hustling, selling drugs, beating people up, fucking, I was fucking, I was an addict, uh, and people reached out and helped me and when I asked them, you know, how the fuck do I pay you back? They're like, you can't just pay it forward, you know, and it's like, that's what I try to do with, you know, social media and, and, um, you know, whatever the fuck, but.

• 1:56:27Rich Roll?

  Are all your, uh, issues with the Navy sorted out at this point?

• 1:56:30John Joseph?

  Oh yeah, I got snitched on by my bass player Harley, ninety-five and tried to get me out of the way, but, uh, yeah.

• 1:56:38Rich Roll?

  The paperwork's taken care of?

• 1:56:39John Joseph?

  Paperwork's good. I even, you know.

• 1:56:41Rich Roll?

  Bank account?

• 1:56:42John Joseph?

  I do, man. Believe it or not, I still don't have a license. My girl's like, I'm not fucking going anywhere with you.

• 1:56:49Rich Roll?

  Well, here's the thing. You come to LA and you stay with Tal downtown, right?

• 1:56:53John Joseph?

  Well, now, now he has a girl, so I don't get to stay with him. I rent the Airbnb.

• 1:56:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, you do, but you're downtown and then you're like, hey, let's go to dinner. We're like, for people that don't know, it's like a two hour drive from where we are.

• 1:57:05John Joseph?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:05Rich Roll?

  And I know, weren't you supposed to, um, who was I with? Oh, Rob Moore was here the other day.

• 1:57:10John Joseph?

  Yeah, I was supposed to go down to Santa Monica.

• 1:57:12Rich Roll?

  And you wanted him to go like to Crossroads and he's like, we're in Venice, dude. Good luck, man. Like, get a driver's license and rent a freaking car when you come to town here.

• 1:57:22John Joseph?

  Do you got wheels? Like, I Uber. I Ubered here. I fucking Ubered here, but.

• 1:57:28Rich Roll?

  Only because, what's his name? Was who was supposed to drive you to show up?

• 1:57:32John Joseph?

  Jay Soto, the chef who's amazing.

• 1:57:33Rich Roll?

  From the series.

• 1:57:34John Joseph?

  From this, and you know what?

• 1:57:36Rich Roll?

  Actually, he's great.

• 1:57:36John Joseph?

  He just posted up and, and, and I gotta give this motherfucker props because he's still working at Amity and he's been getting these guys jobs as chefs in some of the top restaurants in LA. And he just posted a picture with all these fucking guys and it's like, you know, yeah, but he had some meetings and he had, we went late and he slept in, whatever the fuck, but he's, he's my boy, man. I met so many magical people, um, through the, through that, through that whole thing. But yeah, coming out here, it's, you know, eh, you know, before Uber, everyone avoided me. Like, they'd be like, yeah, come out. I'm like, yo, man, what's up?

• 1:58:14Rich Roll?

  They're like, you gotta drive downtown and pick you up.

• 1:58:17John Joseph?

  They don't answer back. And then, and then I heard to the grapevine, yeah, they're like, that motherfucker don't got a car and he has to get driven around.

• 1:58:25Rich Roll?

  That's, he had to get into the fucking Iron Man shit. That's a classic. It's like, I'll take my bike. It's a classic, like, rich man, poor man thing. Like, that's what super rich guys do and guys who don't have two nickels do.

• 1:58:40Rich Roll?

  Anyway, um, what's the next Iron Man?

• 1:58:43John Joseph?

  Oh, I got two this year. I'm doing, uh, St. George. I just had hernia surgery last year, which fucked me up, but I still got Cosmell done. Um, I had to, I hurt my hernia surgery. I injured the surgery on tour with the Chromax. I waited a month. The doctor's like,

• 1:59:01Rich Roll?

  You had to cancel, you had to cancel a bunch of dates, right?

• 1:59:03John Joseph?

  Cancel fucking tours, big ones. But you know, the thing was, my doctor, she was like, oh yeah, you can go back to training and, you know, after two weeks. And then she's like, yeah, you could go and play. And then I came back off the road. We had, cause we had to stop in New York and I went to see her and she's like, I was like, yeah, I, I fucked up. I think I'm, I, I fucked something up, like, and she's like, what kind of music do you do? And I showed her the video. She's like, I would have fucking never let you fucking get on stage and do that. Are you fucking kidding me? She's like, uh, she's like, cancel the rest of this tour. I said, I can't do that. She goes, no singing. She cleared me for Iron Man.

• 1:59:40Rich Roll?

  I, yeah, you can sing.

• 1:59:42Mishka Shubaly?

  I did forty miles ten days after hernia surgery and fucking JJ does a couple of shows and fucking.

• 1:59:48John Joseph?

  Right. Yo, she was, uh, she cleared me to do the Iron Man in Cozumel right before Thanksgiving, but she said no more singing.

• 1:59:55Rich Roll?

  Right. You could do the Iron Man, but no more Chromax shows.

• 1:59:58John Joseph?

  Yeah. So like, I've been healing up from that, doing a lot of, like I said, salt baths and yoga and CBD oil, which I discovered, which really fucking, this company, Zanja, helps me out. They, you know, it just really kills the fucking pain and, uh, you know, and, and like that. But I got St. George coming up, uh, May fourth in Utah. And then I got, uh, Lake Placid, which I've been wanting to do for, for, for years. And going to be touring with, uh, Bloodclot this year again. And, uh, I started doing a lot of speaking engagements now. Um, thank you, by the way, you hooked me up with somebody that was trying to get in touch with me. I'm doing like this thing in Richmond when I get home.

• 2:00:42Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:00:43John Joseph?

  Through your blessings.

• 2:00:46Rich Roll?

  Mishka, how's the running going? You got back into it?

• 2:00:49Mishka Shubaly?

  Good until the last couple of days, man. The, um, yeah, I'm gonna do an, uh, I'm gonna get back to it this year. I'm gonna do another marathon.

• 2:00:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:58Mishka Shubaly?

  The, um, this is gonna blow your guys' minds, but I feel like since I stopped eating meat and consuming dairy, I feel like I recover.

• 2:01:10John Joseph?

  To what the fuck are you doing?

• 2:01:12Mishka Shubaly?

  No, hear me out, bro. No, I've just been, I, uh,

• 2:01:18John Joseph?

  The light bulb just came on.

• 2:01:20Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 2:01:21Mishka Shubaly?

  It takes a while, but I get there eventually.

• 2:01:25Rich Roll?

  Four thousand.

• 2:01:29Mishka Shubaly?

  The, uh, no, man, I mean, like, I feel like there's no word that's like more overused or annoying as, you know, inspiring or inspiration or whatever. But one of my boys, uh, Travis Reyes is a comic in, uh, San Antonio, or he's in Austin, Texas now. Um, he, he was like, oh, this is gonna be the, I, you know, my yearly rereading of I swear I'll make it up to you and I pretend that I'm gonna get back into running and then it's gonna fail. And I was like, well, let's do 50 miles together this month. And he was like, all right, fuck it, let's do it. So we did it. And then we did a hundred miles the next month. And then I was like, well, fuck, now we start training for a marathon, you know?

• 2:02:07Rich Roll?

  Beautiful.

• 2:02:07Mishka Shubaly?

  Right. So, um.

• 2:02:09Rich Roll?

  Recovery's good. You look slim, dude.

• 2:02:11Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, fucking four days of throwing up, that'll do it for you, man. The, uh, no, the, um, I've been, uh, here's another mind blower. I've been wearing myself down to a nub, like out there on the road, man, like just eating garbage and not exercising and not sleeping and shit like that. And that's been a big thing for me is like, I'm really, um, I mean, I'm not gonna say I'm gonna quit, but I'm gonna try and like dial it way back. Um, and, you know, I love my house, I love my cat, I love my girlfriend, I love my mom, I love my family, you know, I, I love doing these house shows and like really trying to, you know, the, um, trying to build a, uh, community in Phoenix that I can, you know, really feel like I belong there. Um, and getting,

• 2:02:54Mishka Shubaly?

  getting back to writing, you know, I, um, I edited Mark Lanigan's, uh, memoir, which is, that is the fucking darkest thing I've ever read in my life. It's fucking brilliant, but.

• 2:03:03Rich Roll?

  Tell me who he is.

• 2:03:05Mishka Shubaly?

  Uh, most, most people know him as the singer of Screaming Trees. He's also put out like 15 incredible solo records. Um, you know, his book of lyrics was praised by Nick Cave and Moby and fucking everybody. Um, and, uh, he's an incredible, I mean, he was a heroin addict, like living under a bridge, smoking crack, smoking meth, you know, like fucking done everything. And, uh,

• 2:03:30Mishka Shubaly?

  I tricked him and talked him into writing a memoir and then Bird hooked him up and you know, we got him a deal. Cool. And then we did this fucking book together and it was, I mean, I was like, you know, he's like one of my last remaining musical heroes. Wow. Is the book out? Uh, it'll be out in April. I think it's April 24th. Come bring him in here, man, and we'll talk about it. That if, man, if you could get him on the podcast, I made him laugh. Well, you're my, you're my, you're my hookup. The, I'll do, I'll do everything I can to make it happen. I made him laugh. Through Bird, though? Uh, yeah, yeah. I, I made him laugh once in my life. It was telling him the story about drinking my own piss when I was shipwrecked. And I'll tell you what, making that stony

• 2:04:12Mishka Shubaly?

  gargoyle laugh once was the most gratifying thing I've ever done, dude. It was like, he's, yeah, he's just a legendary hard ass. Did you correct, you corrode or you edit? No, I, I edited. It's, it's Mark's work. You know, the, I, um, it was just sort of nagging him and nudging him and, you know, prodding him forward and, uh, you know, doing everything I could to sort of coach him through it or whatever. But it was, um, you, I mean, it's really been the creative experience of my lifetime to work with one of my heroes like that. And also to be put in the position of working with one of your heroes to be like, yo, this isn't good enough. You've got to redo that part. You know, that's Right. Fucking nerve wracking. Um, I'm also working on a screenplay. Um, I met a guy. And you don't even live in LA.

• 2:04:57Mishka Shubaly?

  I know. I met a guy through Mark. We were like hanging out at Mark's house and I was like, I was shitting on LA and I was like, yeah, I have a screenplay idea, but I'm not gonna like go around fucking talking to people at parties about it. And he was like, well, what's the idea? You know, what's the idea? And I told him and he was like, that's a great idea. Um, Ridley Scott is doing my next screenplay.

• 2:05:21Mishka Shubaly?

  Let's make this happen. And I was like, what?

• 2:05:24Rich Roll?

  I fucking talked to one.

• 2:05:27Mishka Shubaly?

  And he's great.

• 2:05:28John Joseph?

  In Phoenix?

• 2:05:29Mishka Shubaly?

  No, no, it was out here.

• 2:05:30Rich Roll?

  It was out here.

• 2:05:30Mishka Shubaly?

  At Mars.

• 2:05:31Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 2:05:31Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:32Rich Roll?

  Who is this person?

• 2:05:33Mishka Shubaly?

  Uh, his, his name is Roberto. Uh, I'm gonna say his last name wrong. Benevento, Benta. You know, he just sold Gucci, the screenplay of, uh, the Gucci family that fucking Lady Gaga was gonna play the lead on.

• 2:05:45Rich Roll?

  Holy shit.

• 2:05:46Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah. So, and he's a great dude, super talented writer, like very, gives me good direct communication on what's working.

• 2:05:53Rich Roll?

  So you probably shouldn't tell us what that's about, right?

• 2:05:56Mishka Shubaly?

  The, I mean, the, the gist of it is, you know, if you look at, you know, classic horror movies, the monster is like technology, or like interracial marriage, or marijuana, you know, it's always some social anxiety. So in this instance, the monster is addiction.

• 2:06:14Mishka Shubaly?

  The, I'll, I'll send you guys the, you know, the idea.

• 2:06:16Rich Roll?

  Cool. Wow.

• 2:06:17John Joseph?

  That's exciting.

• 2:06:18Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm psyched. You know, so that's, that's the thing. This year's all about like fucking hunkering down. You know, getting back to running. Maybe I'll come out to St. George, drive out and, uh, and hang out with you.

• 2:06:30Rich Roll?

  Running.

• 2:06:30Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, not that you're, that you're gonna be hanging out that much.

• 2:06:32Rich Roll?

  Running and writing, dude.

• 2:06:33Mishka Shubaly?

  Running, writing, and getting my health, you know, fucking back to where it needs to be.

• 2:06:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:40Mishka Shubaly?

  And building community connection, Rich.

• 2:06:42Rich Roll?

  There you go. Don't try to do this alone, Mishka.

• 2:06:47Mishka Shubaly?

  Man.

• 2:06:48John Joseph?

  Right?

• 2:06:50Rich Roll?

  Dude.

• 2:06:50Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:51Rich Roll?

  I love you.

• 2:06:52Mishka Shubaly?

  I love you too, man. It's fucking.

• 2:06:53John Joseph?

  He's the best. I miss you, bro. You're like.

• 2:06:55Mishka Shubaly?

  I know. I'm, I'm gonna be back in, uh, in March for a couple of weeks. Let's, let's hang out.

• 2:07:00John Joseph?

  I'm in town.

• 2:07:01Mishka Shubaly?

  Get some food.

• 2:07:01John Joseph?

  Definitely, bro.

• 2:07:02Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:03John Joseph?

  Lot of great places in New York now. Vlad, uh, Organic Grill and, you know.

• 2:07:08Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent.

• 2:07:09John Joseph?

  Yeah, man.

• 2:07:10Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent. That's my routine.

• 2:07:12John Joseph?

  Rich feels guilty if we don't go to Vlad.

• 2:07:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, here's my thing.

• 2:07:15John Joseph?

  A Russian, like, former martial artist, you know, opened his.

• 2:07:19Rich Roll?

  I'm a creature of habit.

• 2:07:21John Joseph?

  Organic spot.

• 2:07:22Rich Roll?

  And my routine is, when I go to New York, I always take the first flight out. It's usually like the 7:00 AM or 6:00 AM out of LA. So it gets me to New York. It land, I land at JFK like three thirty or whatever. Uber into the city, get checked into my hotel and then just, and then walk to meet JJ for dinner. Like that's the tradition. Yeah. Like I'm here and usually we go to organic grill. Cause of our boy Vlad and the great food, but the last time we went somewhere else and I did, I was like, I felt so guilty. I was like,

• 2:07:52John Joseph?

  I know, and it was right around the corner from Vlad's. But Vlad's was packed and he, you know, sometimes I can't get a table in there. I'm like, I fucking created a monster. I promoted the fuck out of this place. Now I can't even fucking get in there. But I, he's like, I, hey, I haven't seen, I, I just love the way he says, you know, my friend John, he wrote the book meat is for pussies. Like he's a great guy.

• 2:08:17Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 2:08:17John Joseph?

  Fucking so cool. He, I, I convinced him to get the restaurant to go plant base, get rid of the fish, the dairy. And he was nervous at first. I said, dude, your place is going to blow the fuck up, but yeah, we felt guilty. We were like every bite. We were like, fuck man.

• 2:08:35John Joseph?

  We ate around the corner, but uh.

• 2:08:37Mishka Shubaly?

  We gotta get you guys to come to Phoenix too. You gotta come and do an event.

• 2:08:41John Joseph?

  That race is on my fucking radar. Cause I'm racing with Y Inc, the hit squad and Heather Jackson won that race before. And I think she trains, the Ironman, she trains down there too.

• 2:08:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:08:55John Joseph?

  With, uh, you know, she cycles down there.

• 2:08:58Mishka Shubaly?

  There's, there's room at the inn whenever you guys are in town.

• 2:09:00Rich Roll?

  At the inn.

• 2:09:01Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:01Rich Roll?

  You really are trying to create your own Bisbee, aren't you?

• 2:09:04Mishka Shubaly?

  I, I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to fucking build my tribe, man.

• 2:09:07Rich Roll?

  Do you have any like pickup trucks on cinder blocks in the yard and stuff like that?

• 2:09:11Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:14Mishka Shubaly?

  Dude, I figured out it's like this, my whole life, like I lived in New York, like 17 years and I.

• 2:09:19Rich Roll?

  I'll never forget going to your apartment in Brooklyn. The first time I met you.

• 2:09:23Mishka Shubaly?

  Imagine that, but in a fucking yard in a house.

• 2:09:26Rich Roll?

  I was like, I can't believe this guy lives here, man.

• 2:09:29Mishka Shubaly?

  I forgot that I'm a country boy, man. I was, I was in Greenpoint.

• 2:09:32Rich Roll?

  Oh, right.

• 2:09:34Mishka Shubaly?

  Like overlooking BQ.

• 2:09:35John Joseph?

  Greenpoint, I got some history in there from the seven.

• 2:09:39Rich Roll?

  It wasn't the neighborhood. It was the apartment proper, like the way it was set up.

• 2:09:43Mishka Shubaly?

  Dude, that was the cleanest it's ever been.

• 2:09:44Rich Roll?

  And your roommate and like, it was just a weird situation.

• 2:09:48Rich Roll?

  We chill on the floor and an alliance was formed. All right, we gotta land this plane, but let's, let's close it down with, um, you know, if you had to like pick a predominant theme of this conversation is sobriety, right? So for the person who's listening to this, uh, who is in that cycle, who feels stuck, or doesn't feel like maybe they need to get sober, or, you know, just hasn't really found the lifeline and something that you guys said today, you know, connected with that person or spoke to them, like, let's leave them with a little bit of direction and hope.

• 2:10:22John Joseph?

  Right. You want me to say something?

• 2:10:25Rich Roll?

  You first, John.

• 2:10:27John Joseph?

  I get a lot of messages and just cause, you know, I'm out doing the music and the races and then, you know, the walking tours and just, and, and people hit me up. They're like, yo, you know, I mean, close to death sometimes with this stuff. And I, and I just say, look, you know, you gotta get that. Everybody says one day I'm gonna do this one. And I go, you gotta flip the script on that shit. And you have to say day one. And today is my day one. And I'm not gonna, and just take it day by day. Like they say, even in the rooms, it's like, you know, take it day by day.

• 2:11:03Rich Roll?

  One day at a time.

• 2:11:03John Joseph?

  But, but it, you know, it's also those connections. Uh, uh, they say people, places and things. Like I know a lot of that philosophy and I think that that's the truth. And, uh, staying around positive people that are doing, you know, positive things and are also, um, you know, when I was getting off crack, I didn't go hang out with people that fucking had crack habits. Those people almost got me murdered because I wasn't, I had issues as from a childhood, whatever. So I succumbed to that. So, you know, get your day one, say today I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna replace all that other shit with positive stuff. Somebody told me that the other day. I said, every time you wanna fuck get high, drop and do

• 2:11:48John Joseph?

  fucking 50 pushups. Go fucking run. Go fucking eat good. Go read a book. Go watch, go do something else that's gonna allocate that same time. You were gonna give in to your addiction to doing something that's gonna be beneficial to you and your life. And um, that's, that's really, uh, you know, my message and, and to reach out to people. Don't, you know, it just cost my guitar player hi- his life because the embarrassment and trying to hide what was going on. You, you know, I think in the four, terms of the four agreements, we make assumptions and that's a problem. We assume people are gonna judge us. We assume we're gonna be looked down upon, but no, you'd be quite surprised

• 2:12:33John Joseph?

  how many people are out there that love you and have compassion and, you know, uh, you know, they were waiting for you to step forward and admit, hey, man, I got a fucking problem. And that's number one. To solving a problem, you have to admit you have one.

• 2:12:50Rich Roll?

  Mishka.

• 2:12:52Mishka Shubaly?

  Uh, I'm gonna borrow a note from, you know, from one of the things JJ was talking about today and just say, uh, you don't have to have the gun locked and loaded in order to make the decision to change your life. Uh, it doesn't have to be lowest ebb. It doesn't have to be blackest night. You know, at any point in your life, you're having a problem with, you know, drinking too much, using drugs, smoking, eating, just acting wrong. You know, that, um, there's always a way forward and, uh, the,

• 2:13:27Mishka Shubaly?

  I love this concept of higher power. I think it's fucking awesome. The, uh, we can, the next time I come back, we can just talk about higher power.

• 2:13:34Rich Roll?

  Alright.

• 2:13:35Mishka Shubaly?

  And, and, and the, and for me, it's, uh, it's been the connection, the, the connection between human beings. And that's the, you know, that's the only way that I know how to like navigate this fucking quagmire is through connecting with other people. So.

• 2:13:54John Joseph?

  So not alone.

• 2:13:55Mishka Shubaly?

  Absolutely, not alone.

• 2:13:57Rich Roll?

  And let me ask you this, what is it about connection that gives you that feeling? Like, that's where you can find spirituality because you can't put your finger on it, right? There is no tangible thing about that, but there's something mystical that happens through connecting with another human being that provides that healing.

• 2:14:18Mishka Shubaly?

  You know what? I was, when I had my old van, my little Toyota Previa, I was driving down the highway one day in New Jersey and I was, I pulled up next to this, you know, Latino dude driving the exact same year, the same color of the minivan. Maroon, right? Yeah, I remember. And I just, I honked and I, and I did shave and a haircut and he looked over at me and did two bits and I fucking, I was high all day just from that, just that level of connection, man. Just reaching out and just being like, are you getting what I'm putting down, you know? And like, and we, we understood each other, you know? And like, if I, you know, if you're listening to that dude. That's gotta go on the cold turkey book. That's all it takes, man. You can move mountains.

• 2:15:02Mishka Shubaly?

  It's the little things. Yeah.

• 2:15:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think you made an important point, which is it doesn't have to be the blackest night. And, and I think there's a lot of people who are suffering who think, well, you know, I'm not living on the street or I'm not in jail or, you know, I haven't gotten a DUI or whatever it is. You can always point to somebody who's suffering more or somebody whose condition is far more dire than your own. But the truth of the matter is if you look in the mirror and you're honest with yourself, to recognize that the elevator's going down, it's going to continue to go down, but you can step off at any point. That opportunity is available to you in every single given moment. It's harder to step off when you still have things to lose. When you hit that rock bottom, that's a blessing, right? Like,

• 2:15:45Rich Roll?

  then you're willing, man, because you'll do anything it takes. But that doesn't have to be your situation. And the truth is, that's not the case for most people. And to remain in the moment, right? To just stay in the day. I think a lot of people get caught up in future tripping, like, oh, man, I gotta, I gotta go to this thing next month and there's no way I can do that sober. A wedding or whatever. It's like, you don't have to worry about that, man. You just got like five hours between now and when your head hits that pillow. Do you think you can make it until then without picking up a drink? That's it, man. That's it. And you string those things together. I would supplement what both of you guys have said by just saying that

• 2:16:29Rich Roll?

  it's important that you find somebody that you can talk to honestly. Like, I know you feel shameful. You feel embarrassed, that same embarrassment that, you know, basically killed your, killed your bandmate. You've got to find an outlet for that. So find somebody that you feel like you can be honest with and like, open up and tell them what's going on. Shame can't survive the light, and that is the first step towards like wrestling those demons into the ground.

• 2:16:54John Joseph?

  Definitely.

• 2:16:56Mishka Shubaly?

  Love you guys, man. I'm glad we fucking.

• 2:16:58Rich Roll?

  Love you both.

• 2:16:59Mishka Shubaly?

  Richard, thank you so much for 500 episodes, dude.

• 2:17:03John Joseph?

  500 episodes.

• 2:17:05Mishka Shubaly?

  Can't fucking believe it, man. It's a massive accomplishment.

• 2:17:08Rich Roll?

  Thank you.

• 2:17:08Mishka Shubaly?

  And we're like, we're all indebted to you.

• 2:17:10John Joseph?

  And the talent pool, I mean, present company excluded.

• 2:17:14Mishka Shubaly?

  Look at these guys.

• 2:17:15John Joseph?

  You know, like.

• 2:17:17Rich Roll?

  Where's the PMA book? It should be back there. It might be in my, uh.

• 2:17:21John Joseph?

  It's not even on the show.

• 2:17:22Rich Roll?

  No, I'll bring it out. I think it's back in the, uh, Means for Pussies is there. There you go.

• 2:17:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man. Seven years, 500 episodes. It feels like yesterday and also feels like 100 years.

• 2:17:34John Joseph?

  And let's not forget, I gotta, I gotta plug this.

• 2:17:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man.

• 2:17:37John Joseph?

  If you want to read incredible fucking journey.

• 2:17:41Rich Roll?

  The German edition you got there.

• 2:17:42John Joseph?

  Ach du, don't be klug, schaizer, read the book.

• 2:17:50Rich Roll?

  Listen, uh, to everybody who's watching or listening, uh, I don't take your attention for granted. And this journey that I've been on is solely the result of, of you gifting me with your time and your attention. So much love and appreciation to everybody out there who took a chance on this show and has become part of this audience. Um, that means so much to me. And it is your, uh, energy and enthusiasm and engagement with what I do that keeps me going. So mad love.

• 2:18:19John Joseph?

  And the authenticity of, of what you do. That's what carries it on. And I always say one thing and, uh, and it's that people can smell bullshit. And I say the bullshit detector, you might be able to fool people and get over on people. But it's always gonna come out.

• 2:18:38Rich Roll?

  Fool me once, fool. You can't be fooled.

• 2:18:41John Joseph?

  Fool, oh, we're quoting GW Junior now.

• 2:18:45Speaker 03

  We're not gonna walk on that, man. You can't close with that.

• 2:18:48John Joseph?

  No, but it's the bullshit detector and the authenticity of this show and what you do. And you live what the fuck you say. You're out there fucking doing it. And like I always say, Pravapas said, "Example is better than precept." And I don't know too many people that set a better example than what you do and how you affect people. And that comes across to people. They know, they can tell that it's authentic, it's real. And, you know, fucking amazing, 500 episode. Thanks for having us.

• 2:19:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, man.

• 2:19:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man. Next time we'll, thank you. And, uh, next time we'll do it in a cramped hotel room somewhere.

• 2:19:25John Joseph?

  Let's rent a small.

• 2:19:26Rich Roll?

  We're gonna have to do it in Phoenix.

• 2:19:27John Joseph?

  Roach motel somewhere.

• 2:19:29Rich Roll?

  At his ranch, the backseat of his truck or something. All right. Love you guys.

• 2:19:33John Joseph?

  Cool, same.

• 2:19:34Speaker 03

  Love you, Rich.

• 2:19:34Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:19:42Rich Roll?

  I don't know what that was, but it was kind of amazing. All I can tell you is I absolutely love those guys, each of those guys. But man, together, what's the word to describe it? I'm not sure. Hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Rich Roll with the one word that you would use to encapsulate that conversation that best bears witness to whatever it was that just went down. Uh, while you're at it, throw some love at the brothers. JJ is at JJ Crow Mag on Twitter and at John Joseph Crow Mag on Instagram. Mishka is at Mishka Shubali on both Twitter and Instagram. Be sure to check out the show notes on the episode page to learn more about these guys, their music, their writing, and to see what else they're up to.

• 2:20:24Rich Roll?

  Pick up Mishka's latest offering, This Fan Could Be Your Life, and one of JJ's books, The PMA Effect, Evolution of a Crow Magnon, Meet Us For Pussies, all the good stuff. And finally, To experience hands down the best plant-based cheese in the known universe, visit Srimu at srimu.com. S-R-I-M-U.com. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate and comment on it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for all you Android users and YouTube for the visually inclined. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. I love seeing all the screen grabs on Instagram and you can also support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. I appreciate everybody, the whole team that helps put on this show.

• 2:21:09Rich Roll?

  Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for videoing and editing the show. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Georgia Whaley for copywriting, a new addition to the team. Welcome, Georgia. Ally Rogers for portraits. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music by Analemma. Thank you for the love, you guys. It's been an incredible 500-episode ride. Here's to the next 500. I will see you back here in a couple of days with the co-founder and CEO of Bar3, Sadie Lincoln. In a great conversation about physical and spiritual balance, here's a little slice to whet the appetite. Until then, peace.

• 2:21:53Speaker 04

  What if we exercised to practice being honest in our bodies? Forget about even like feeling good in our bodies, just honest. And that everything I do in that moment is about honoring who I am in my physical self and what I need in that moment. The more we do that, you build that muscle and that muscle carries you through so many things in life. It's not okay or normal that most women have body image issues. That's not okay. Like, we just pass that off now. Oh, that's a phase. All women go through that. That's not okay. And we have the power, business has the power to change that. We can rewrite

• 2:22:36Speaker 04

  this story and we are rewriting it at Bar3 and so many other beautiful organizations are as well. For me, success is about being authentic to my values and showing up that way as a practice, over and over and over again. And you can do that through work. You can do that through a sport. You can do that through anything we do in life. We can embody our values as a practice. And if I do that, that to me is success.