ROLLUP: 3rd Week of April (BTC & ETH ATH, $COIN, Berlin Upgrade, Gary Gensler SEC, Bull Market)

Download the crypto meta to your brain in this weekly show. ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ 🎖 CLAIM YOUR BADGE: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/-guide-2-using-the-bankless-badge ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 💰 GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini 🦊 METAMASK | DEFI PASSPORT https://bankless.cc/metamask 🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING http://bankless.cc/uniswap 🔀 BALANCER | EXCHANGE & POOL ASSETS https://bankless.cc/balancer ------ 📣 DHARMA | From Dollars to DeFi in a Tap! https://bankless.cc/dharma ------ Topics Covered: Compound TVL https://twitter.com/defipulse/status/1380889501283799042 $COIN Price https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/NASDAQ-COIN/ Who’s Buying COIN? https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/101760/cathie-wood-ark-246-million-coinbase-stocks RELEASES Maker / AAVE Proposal https://forum.makerdao.com/t/discussion-direct-deposit-dai-module-d3m/7357 Gas Fees Down? https://twitter.com/0xEther/status/1381513763661176834?s=20 Binance Tokenized Stonks https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/101335/binance-launches-tokenized-stock-trading-tesla Raid Guild Smart Invoice https://medium.com/raid-guild/introducing-smart-invoice-211776245a0b NEWS Coinbase Public Listing https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1679788/000162828021003168/coinbaseglobalincs-1.htm Coinbase Giving Shares to Employees https://twitter.com/CoinDesk/status/1382163782315704322?s=20 Ethereum Berlin https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/03/08/ethereum-berlin-upgrade-announcement/ JPM & Mastercard invest in Consensys https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-hub-consensys-raises-65m-from-big-banks-and-blockchain-builders Gitcoin Raise https://twitter.com/gitcoin/status/1382411085161099265 dYdX L2 Volume https://imgur.com/a/nFdygKj MakerDAO Real World Assets https://twitter.com/nomos_paradox/status/1381684052969721856?s=20 Epic Games Raises $1B for NFTs https://venturebeat.com/2021/04/13/epic-games-raises-1-billlion-to-fund-long-term-metaverse-plans/amp/ 41:20 Immutable Integrations https://twitter.com/Immutable/status/1382548807083204610 Regulation https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/101595/us-senate-confirms-gary-gensler-as-joe-bidens-sec-commissioner https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/101553/sec-peirce-token-safe-harbor-update HSBC Bans Crypto https://twitter.com/cameron/status/1380526047188369409?s=21 TAKES WSB Allows Crypto https://twitter.com/cyounessi1/status/1382519260392591361 Hard to Use ETH? https://twitter.com/RyanSAdams/status/1381618315513200643?s=20 NYSE vs. Uniswap https://twitter.com/haydenzadams/status/1381677367358283783 “Thereum” https://twitter.com/ryansadams/status/1382701166757347350?s=21 How Long Bull Market? https://twitter.com/ryansadams/status/1382503698442678273?s=21 ETH Killers vs. Infrastructure https://twitter.com/JimmyRagosa/status/1381613502276775946?s=20 Vitalik on Maximalism https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ/status/1381468493317505028?s=20 ------ This Week on Bankless: 🏴 SotN w/ Cryptex & Element (4/13: https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/sotn-42-ethereum-devs-building-defi ⚒️ How to Use dYdX (4/13): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/how-to-trade-on-the-dydx-rollup 📈 Market Monday (4/12): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/coinbase-week-market-monday 🎙️Podcast w/ Hester Peirce (4/12): https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/-the-sec-and-defi-hester-peirce ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, Bankless Nation, it's roll up time. This is the third week of April. David, how you doing?

• 0:11David Hoffman?

  Absolutely fantastic. Third week of April and one of the most monumental weeks in crypto history, at least in my opinion. Price action is absolutely flying and meanwhile, we have cryptos ever. Our biggest company is now a public company on the NASDAQ. So many things to get excited about and we are going to go through all of them on this Bankless weekly roll up.

• 0:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Guys, if this is your first roll up, this comes at you every Friday, every Friday AM. Enjoy it with your coffee. This is the fastest way to download the week that was crypto because we hit the market, we hit releases, we hit news, hot takes, and then we end with what we are both excited about. So David, I am super excited about this week. We are about to get into it, but before we do, we've got to mention some hot announcements that are going on. The first is this, the Bankless badge. Bankless members, if you're a member of the Bankless Nation, you're a paid subscriber to the newsletter, you've got to pick up a badge. Why do they need to pick up a badge, David?

• 1:07David Hoffman?

  They got to pick up a badge because they need to get one of these Bankless Apparel t-shirts. There is only 50 of them in existence and there's only six left to give out and we are giving out all of them next week to Bankless badge holders. And so this is, it works as a raffle. If you have a Bankless badge, you can go sign up for the raffle. Starting on Monday, we're giving out one every single day for the whole week, trying to get these out of my closet and into the hands of the Bankless Nation. And that doesn't stop there because the week after that is another week of giveaways, ending with a whole entire ether to one lucky Bankless badge holder. So if you are a premium subscriber and you have not yet claimed your badge, go scrape

• 1:48David Hoffman?

  your email for the Bankless badge invite link coming to you at, from [email protected]. Go find that email, claim your badge. And if you want to be a part of future raffles and future giveaways, go be a Bankless premium subscriber. It's gonna, you want, you want the Bankless badge.

• 2:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Absolutely. Got to get the Bankless badge. This message is for those of you who are existing premium subscribers. Go search your email for that. If you have any issues, email [email protected]. Just make sure you pick up your badge before Bankless Badge Week. You don't want to regret it. You don't want to miss out on the raffles, David.

• 2:24David Hoffman?

  Raffles are going to be tight. Raffles are tight.

• 2:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  They're going to be awesome. Yeah. Better every day is what we, is what the promise is. David, we should also mention something really hot that is coming from Dharma. The Dharma Wallet, they've just added a ton of new functionality that we just had to mention at the front of this show. David, I know you're a big Dharma Wallet user. Why?

• 2:47David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it's really a new paradigm in what a DeFi Ethereum wallet can be. This has brand new backend architecture that really makes the user experience of managing this thing just 100 times easier. And what I, we're going to get into this, but one of the things I'm excited about is retail season, which I think is coming. And retail season really needs infrastructure like the Dharma app to really be enabled. So if you're trying to get your friends into DeFi, yet you're worried about them getting caught up on gas prices or gas management or whatever, the Dharma app is the place to send them.

• 3:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep. And here's what you do, basically. So go to Dharma.io, you download the app, you connect it to your bank account. What you can do is move funds directly from your bank account, Wells Fargo, Bank of America, wherever you bank, directly to DeFi, not just the app, directly to a DeFi protocol like YFI, where you can earn 14% or Compound, where you can earn close to double digits in just one tap. That is the key thing. Dharma making it super easy to onboard your friends into the Bankless ecosystem, particularly if they live in the US. They've really solved that last mile problem. David, are you ready to get into the week that was crypto? Should we start with markets?

• 4:01David Hoffman?

  We have to. We absolutely have to. Let's do it.

• 4:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. Well, let's start with Bitcoin then, as long as we're on markets. What is Bitcoin doing this week?

• 4:11David Hoffman?

  Bitcoin has reached a new all time high of almost $65,000, $64,000. 1715. Nice job Bitcoin. Well done. Well done. Really, really crossing some milestones as well. There are some pretty cool things about Bitcoin at its current price. Bitcoin is currently worth more than the entire Brazilian stock market. And so the Brazilian stock market in the rearview mirror. And it's also bigger than the British pound sterling, the total market cap of all British pound sterling. Again, in Bitcoin's rearview mirror. Bitcoin just flying by the milestones. Nice job.

• 4:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  So that makes it the sixth largest currency, not cryptocurrency, the sixth largest currency in the world at this point. Where it's touching like 1.2 billion dollars. That's a pretty phenomenal milestone for crypto and definitely for Bitcoin. But tell us about ETH. ETH is having a good week, David.

• 5:07David Hoffman?

  Yeah, all the milestones that Bitcoin is flying by, Ether is also flying by its own milestones even faster. We are perhaps on the verge of crossing $2,500 Ether, which is a nice, a nice round number to look back at. We are currently at the price of $2,465. The high right now, the high that we touched a couple of hours ago is $2,485. And we are currently at the price of $2,455. A really, really strong performance of Ether in this last week.

• 5:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  And as always, guys, when you listen to this, it could be higher, it could be a bit lower. We don't know, but it is definitely flying this week. We'll talk about maybe some of the reasons for this, but the macro reason might be it's repeating history.

• 5:52David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 5:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  What is Anthony Sisano telling us on these charts and these graphs here?

• 5:57David Hoffman?

  Right, so Anthony Sisano is comparing Bitcoin in 2017 to Ether now. The meme is always that Ether is always one cycle behind Bitcoin. And in 2017, Bitcoin broke through the previous all time high of $1,000, went up to $1,300, fell back down to $1,000 to touch that support from the 2013, 2014 high. And then we all know the rest of the story. It zoomed up to $20,000 after that. And this is the exact same thing that just happened to ETH. Ether. Ether broke the all-time high of $1,400 at the very beginning of this year. Went all the way up to $1,900, then fell back down to $1,400. And here we are, perhaps repeating history in the same way Bitcoin did last cycle.

• 6:43David Hoffman?

  We are moving up and if you do the math right, Ether goes to 10K after this. If we are indeed repeating history. And so, broke the 2017 all-time high, retested it, went back down to it, found support there, and now we are just zooming up, up, up. And that's a pretty fun place to be.

• 7:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  What's kind of fun too is that like, of course, the market caps are much larger this cycle than the last Bitcoin cycle that you were comparing this to. But the units are, there's basically 10 times more supply Ether than there are Bitcoins. So the units kind of match too, right? Bitcoin, of course, went on that 2017 run at the bottom of like $190 or so to $200, all the way to 20,000 at the very top. And from a unit perspective, Ether might do the exact same thing.

• 7:35David Hoffman?

  Crazy.

• 7:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, I'm not calling 20,000 because I'm just not that guy.

• 7:40David Hoffman?

  I'll call 20,000 when we're at 17,000.

• 7:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  If it repeats history, right, from a unit perspective, it could be similar. Of course, the market caps are much larger now, so that could have an influence. But hard to ignore these charts. We'll see if history gets repeated. We're about to flip in PayPal in market cap. Ethereum is 85% of the way to flipping PayPal in terms of market cap. That's pretty major.

• 8:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and the ETH price action, DC had this tweet where he says like, sometimes he feels like the ETH price action is really, really hot. No, it wasn't DC. It was Jacob Franek of CoinMetrix. And then he sees metrics like this where Ethereum as a whole is still worth less than PayPal. And then he's reminded about how incredibly early we still are. Because Ethereum should be worth more than PayPal. Like, give me a goddamn break.

• 8:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, Dave, let's talk about total locked in DeFi. How's DeFi doing with total locked these days?

• 8:37David Hoffman?

  We were flat for a really long time and we are no longer flat. We were pushing up between 40 and 48 million or billion dollars locked in DeFi ever since February. And we couldn't really break through that 50 billion dollar mark. We broke through it. We are at 58 billion dollars locked in DeFi. I think over 10 billion dollars added in the last week. So that's pretty cool. Also, part of the new, uh, new order of things is Compound is now the new leader in total value locked in DeFi. And is the first protocol to have more than 10 billion dollars locked in, in his, his application. We never would have seen this coming in, in 2018 or 2019. This is such a cool story.

• 9:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's crazy. I, I noticed Wiren as well. They just hit 3 billion. So major milestone. What this means is we're creeping up to that. Not even a year old. We, we're creeping up to that 100 billion dollar mark. That means Money Robots, bankless, programmable contracts in code we trust is going to be managing 100 billion dollars of the world's assets. That's pretty cool. That's pretty sci-fi. Very exciting. Um, David, let's talk about the DeFi Pulse indexes. That reflecting some of this growth. I'm going to look at the weekly. Looks like we're up on the weekly.

• 9:53David Hoffman?

  Yeah, the DPI has been a fantastic asset to hold, especially in the last few days. Uh, last week it was roughly around 470, 480 dollars. We are all the way up to 4, 540 dollars. New all time high in dollar terms for the DPI index.

• 10:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, I think when we started talking about DPI, it was around 80 or so. So we've seen a cool 5X as even as we started like talking about DPI in every roll up moving forward. But let's look at this chart. I know you like this.

• 10:22David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 10:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  DPI ratio to ETH, the DPI to ETH ratio. What are we looking like this week?

• 10:28David Hoffman?

  Right. So DPI versus ETH has been down verse, uh, since, uh, versus ETH since March, right? So Ether as an asset has been the better asset to hold versus DPI ever since the very beginning of. March, we are down to the low of 0.2 Ether per DPI. But in this last week DPI has really rocketed off that 0.2 level, jumping up to 0.22. So up 10% versus Ether, then it fell back down and then it did it again. And so what I'm seeing here is that DPI is really not wanting to go down below 0.2 Ether per DPI. Really finding resistance at that 0.2 level. Is this the final destination of DPI resistance versus Ether?

• 11:13David Hoffman?

  Perhaps, perhaps in the long term. And what this means is that, you know, people are gearing up for DeFi season. If this support can hold for further and then Ether can finish absolutely mooning and then quiet down. Perhaps some DeFi tokens will start to take the lead. That's what I'm seeing in the charts.

• 11:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is all means that Ether is doing well, but DeFi tokens are doing even better.

• 11:38David Hoffman?

  Even weller.

• 11:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Which is sort of interesting. Yes, even weller. All right, we got to talk about some of the reasons for this. And one of the reasons might be the launch of Coin. So Coin, of course, this is Coinbase's much awaited, not initial public offering, but they are going public. And they went public on Wednesday. Maybe this is part of the reason that ETH is flying up. This is part of the reason that DPI, DeFi tokens are flying up. We'll talk a bit about that later. But tell us how Coin has responded and how it's done since launch, David.

• 12:15David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so Ryan, in that upper left next to the coin ticker, go from two hour time zone to down to like, go 15 minutes. Go to 15 minute time tickers. Yeah. And so Coin launched at the price of $410 and immediately fell all the way down to $330. And I believe at $330 Coinbase is valued at 85 billion, somewhere around that mark or 66 billion.

• 12:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  It looks like it's around 66 billion. Yes.

• 12:42David Hoffman?

  And Ryan, in our 2021 bankless predictions, we predicted that Coinbase would, we didn't really put a timeframe on it, but I think pretty soon. Soon after its launch, it would be trading above $100 billion. And so jury's still out. There are plenty of buyers who are buying coin right now, but it looks like there's also plenty of sellers who are finally getting liquidity on their Coinbase equity. I don't expect this asset to be below $100 billion for a long time. I think this is going to reverse pretty damn quickly here.

• 13:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it could catch on. We talked about this in our Market Monday, that this could become sort of the meme stock for crypto. It's interesting, later we'll talk about how Wall Street Bets, for instance, the subreddit that has forever banned crypto is no longer banning crypto. Why? Same day that coin was released because they can get in on some of the action in their Robin Hood accounts. That's probably why. But what's also happening is hedge funds and financial institutions are now able to access crypto exposure in a better way, a way at least that works with their existing rails, right? Publicly traded companies, stocks they can invest in. Kathy Wood's ARC Investment Fund, which is an incredible fund.

• 13:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  They've done incredibly well, gotten ahead of many major technologies.

• 14:03David Hoffman?

  Probably the best performing fund in all of 2020.

• 14:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, Kathy's just killing it.

• 14:08David Hoffman?

  Not even by a little bit, by a magnitude.

• 14:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes. By the way, we gotta get Kathy on the podcast. But anyway, 246 million worth of Coinbase is what ARC bought on the day that it debuted. So it's going to be hard to see how Coinbase goes too low in this kind of backdrop with this kind of support that's coming in the middle of a bull run. What are your thoughts here, David?

• 14:33David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we just have to remind ourselves how long liquidity has been locked up for people who own equity in Coinbase and how ready they are, especially people who are savvy about crypto, how ready they are to double, triple, quadruple down on their crypto exposure. So I know Chris Bernitsky thinks this is true, that people that have equity in Coinbase are selling their coin equity so they can access Bitcoin, Ether, DeFi tokens. And he says that he has the numbers to back that up. And so there's just a wealth shift going on. Coinbase equity holders are shifting out of Coinbase and shifting into crypto. And then everyone who doesn't have any Coinbase is shifting into Coinbase. There's just a bunch of churn in the coin asset right now.

• 15:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know what? This kind of makes sense to me. If I'm a Coinbase employee, right? A typical Coinbase investor with now some liquidity on the coin token, I'm generally like a smart money investor, right? I work at a major crypto exchange. I'm not just looking on kind of YouTube videos. And like finding, yeah, except Bankless, and finding the new hot thing to invest in. I'm relatively informed. And what we've seen is many of the assets, particularly DeFi assets and ETH, that Coinbase lists have gone up since the day that coin was listed. So I think there's something to what Chris Berninski is saying with these employees and insiders sort of cycling back into crypto. That's what I would do with part of the proceeds if I was in that position.

• 15:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, we've got a lot more to cover. Guys, before we do, we want to tell you about the fantastic sponsors that made this episode possible.

• 16:08David Hoffman?

  Balancer is DeFi's most powerful automated market maker. Typical AMMs just have two tokens inside of one liquidity pool, which can lead to fractured liquidity across the many pairs in DeFi. With Balancer, you can access the full power of multiple tokens inside of one single AMM, which unlocks an entirely new playing field of possibility. This makes Balancer an awesome building block for so many different use cases. Balancer pools can make asset indexes, but instead of paying fees to portfolio managers, Balancer lets you collect fees from traders who use your portfolio for liquidity. Additionally, Balancer smart pools can be programmed to have properties that change according to predetermined rules, such as changing the swap fee based on market conditions, or even liquidity bootstrapping pools, which can help you launch and distribute your token with day one liquidity.

• 16:50David Hoffman?

  At Bankless, we used a liquidity bootstrapping pool to sell our BAP t-shirts to much success. Balancer V2 brings powerful new features that makes your money work even harder for you. In V2, idle tokens are capable of generating yield in DeFi without sacrificing liquidity in the pool. To top things off, Balancer is reimbursing all gas costs with BAV rewards, meaning that all your gas costs are returned to your wallet with the Balancer Governance Token. Balancer's mission is to become the primary source of liquidity in DeFi, by providing the most flexible and powerful platform for asset management and decentralized exchange. Dive into the Balancer pools at pools-balancer exchange.

• 17:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  MetaMask is your go-to wallet for the bankless journey. If you're going bankless, you need MetaMask, period. Browser and mobile, get them both. This is your tool to unlock the world of DeFi. Here's my favorite part. Now you can swap tokens directly in MetaMask with a single swipe. This has got to be the easiest way to trade Ethereum tokens. Choose a token you own, a token to exchange it with, and get your quotes. If you like what you see, you hit swap. That's it. What makes swaps so useful is what happens behind the scenes. It compares DEXs, aggregators, and market makers to find you the best price with the lowest network fees and the least slippage. This means you can swap a wider range of tokens, and swaps can even automatically split up your trade to give you access to better liquidity.

• 18:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  You don't even have to think about it. Try it out. Download MetaMask for desktop or mobile now at metamask.io and start swapping. All right, guys, we are back with releases. David, this is a really exciting sort of combination release. This is Aave plus Maker teaming up. What's going on here?

• 18:30David Hoffman?

  Yeah, this is some really cool DeFi money stuff. This is, this is why we are here, right? Aave, Maker, getting closer together as a protocol. Maker has one competitive advantage that no other DeFi app on Ethereum has, which is the ability to, it has the, the rights of issuance, the rights to print money. That's what Maker does. It can print DAI. It only prints it under certain parameters, but Aave wants to tap in, get closer to that power to mint DAI by directly integrating the Aave protocol, the Aave money market, into the ability to directly put collateral into Maker DAO and mint DAI on behalf of Aave. So Aave is, it's got V2 on L1.

• 19:14David Hoffman?

  It's also got an integration on Polygon, and it wants to be in many other L2s as well. And it wants all of these different ways to access Aave to have the same Maker DAO backend. And so this is going to, in theory, add a bunch of liquidity to DAI because Aave can guarantee above and beyond and manage collateral into Maker DAO in a protocol, as a protocol. And so all of a sudden, like a lot of liquidity that Aave has can be put into Maker DAO to help with the DAI liquidity and DAI peg and DAI blending and borrowing rates. And so Aave and Maker DAO coming together.

• 19:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's really cool because this is not a user to protocol interaction. This is a protocol to protocol interaction, which is super exciting. It's also a model that we've seen in traditional finance. So think of MakerDAO, it's like the central bank, and AVE as a commercial bank. Of course, these are both money protocols, so all of this can be automated. But it's a similar sort of relationship. You've got sort of the the underlying money printing bank apparatus, banking apparatus, that is MakerDAO, and you've got a commercial bank, which is AVE for lending and borrowing. Super exciting to see this sort of combination innovation here. David, let's talk about why gas fees on ETH are going down, finally. They're going down a little bit. Why? What's happening?

• 20:34David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I'm used to gas fees only going up. It's actually a pleasant surprise that gas fees are going down. And so there's this new service called Flashbots that has allowed a lot of the gas auctions that arbitrage bots fight for to occur off-chain. And so what is happening is that all of these arbitrators who are consuming all of the gas base and bidding up average gas prices are just fighting for those, for the rights to process transactions in an off-chain manner, which really allows for a more efficient market discovery of what gas should be. And so as a result of that, there's a lot of transactions going in that didn't actually have to compete with other transactions.

• 21:17David Hoffman?

  And so this is actually just turning into a complete, like, a cut in half, if not more, the amount of gas that people are paying. So really nice, really nice.

• 21:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  So what's happening is basically these arbitrators, David, who are kind of running these bots, instead of doing the auction and competing in the Ethereum protocol, they're using Flashbots to go off-protocol and do these auctions directly with miners. So this is what we've called in the past MEV, Minor Extractable Value, right? So there's value in the arbitrators doing this, and there's value for miners in doing this if they get paid. But rather than that happening on-chain, that's now happening in this kind of side-network off-chain, and so it's alleviating the gas demand on-chain, which is good for users in one way, but it's bad for users in another, right? Because there's some front-running going on, right?

• 22:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, there's some ordering, reordering of transactions going on that benefit arbitrators. Are we also concerned about that?

• 22:14David Hoffman?

  I mean, we are concerned about MEV, but I don't think there's any more MEV happening, minor extractable value, happening as a result of this. It's just the fighting for who gets to claim that MEV is happening in a different realm. We are always concerned about the instability, that maximum extractable value is what we're trying to call this, instead of minor extractable value. However, I don't think this is actually changing how much MEV there is at stake.

• 22:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, makes sense. And we're definitely going to talk about MEV in the future. It's going to be a major theme across bankless and crypto. Another major theme, I think, David, is exchanges, crypto exchanges, becoming more like crypto banks, adding more services. This is Binance launching tokenized stock trading services, starting with Tesla, starting with the biggest meme stock of all, of course, a good place to start. All you have to do is trust Binance, right? So it's not a bankless money system. But what's happening here, David?

• 23:14David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Binance is just making synthetic assets to that are on like legacy stock markets. And the difference between the legacy stock market and Binance is Binance is offering these assets to people who don't who don't live in America, aren't domiciled in America, and don't have access to the NASDAQ or to the New York Stock Exchange. So it's one part like democratization of financial assets. It's one part very dubious, legally gray financial activity that American regulators are not going to be pleased with. And so this is always an interesting story. Binance is kind of like one foot in crypto, one foot in legacy, yet they are a real company in real meat space. And that is always interesting to me. There's going to be friction about behavior like this.

• 23:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be interesting to see. But I think one major theme of bankless that we predicted since the early beginnings is the rise of exchanges becoming crypto banks, right? Will these be the new banking overlords of our system? Or will we have more of a DeFi future? I think it might be a combination of both, but we'll talk more about that in a little bit. This is some cool functionality. Raid Guild has put out, this is a DAO that builds things. In the Ethereum ecosystem, right? So this is a smart invoice, David. So it's like a, an invoice that's programmable. Are you up to speed on what this does?

• 24:34David Hoffman?

  Uh, yeah, I remember reading about this really quickly, but it's kind of a, an invoice that turns it on its, uh, that is inside out or backwards, where, uh, you can, uh, give someone the invoice before labor is done. And the invoice, whoever it has to pay can pay that invoice, but not send the money. So the invoice can be fulfilled and then labor can be done. And then the invoice can be executed. And so it's a way for laborers to gain assurances that they are going to be paid for their labor because they can see that the invoice has been paid. And then they do the labor and then they actually receive the money. So it's a little bit like a time lock contract where the person paying for the labor or paying for the services puts up the money.

• 25:16David Hoffman?

  And so the labor giver or the laborer under sees that the money is there and they can feel assured assurances about, uh, that they are going to get paid if they do the labor. Uh, and so this is really important when we talk about like global finance between internet strangers. Uh, there's a lot of that in, uh, in the world of crypto is, is people do work for other people that they don't know and haven't met. Uh, and so reducing that, those trust assumptions by something like this is really helpful.

• 25:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, what's really cool is this is another function of something you could do when you have programmable money. This would not be possible in the traditional financial ecosystem. But with Ethereum, with DeFi, you can actually program invoices to execute on milestones, to escrow things. Very cool, new primitive. Um, you know, in time, this will, this will be the way we do invoicing. I'm fairly certain. Uh, David, let's end with releases there and get to the news. We got to touch, um, the Coinbase listing. Once again, um, this is, this is from the SEC. So this is the SEC release or the filings, the Coinbase release of, I believe this is their, their Form S1.

• 26:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  So this is sort of all of the disclosure information that Coinbase provides investors prior to listing, prior to going public. There's a lot of really interesting information here. Thing I'll pull out, this was written inside of the filing, but also came across in some of the interviews that CEO Brian Armstrong did, was a statement he made that he expects 50% of future revenues to come not from his exchange business, but from non-trading businesses in the next five to 10 years. Those are things like staking, custody, debit cards. David, it's like banking stuff, not exchange stuff.

• 27:04David Hoffman?

  Banking stuff.

• 27:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? Like, what, back to the theme we're just talking about with Binance. This is Coinbase morphing into a new type of bank. And to be honest, like, look, this is bankless, so we prefer complete self-sovereignty over our money, but we are sort of one foot on the shore, one foot in the ocean in those two worlds. But I definitely prefer a Coinbase or a Gemini to my clunky old Wells Fargo account, right? Like, because there's so much more I can do with even a crypto bank. It's very interesting to see them evolve into a fully fledged banking-like system. Even though they're not regulated as banks right now, they're becoming banks essentially.

• 27:49David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and they're becoming much better banks. And this is something that, like, the legacy banks, the Wells Fargo, the Bank of Americas, that they just do not understand what is happening here or the forces at play. Coinbase is going to be a better bank, perhaps out of the good nature of Coinbase leadership, but more definitely because they have to be, because their competition is DeFi. And DeFi is the best money UX in history, period. Once you learn how to manage Ethereum and do Ethereum stuff, the DeFi bankless world is really just competitive. Like, the yields are higher, everything is just better. And like, it's just, and what Coinbase is morphing into is a bank that is closer to DeFi

• 28:32David Hoffman?

  than Bank of America, Wells Fargo, blah, blah, blah. And so as a customer service, or as a, just what their product and offerings are, are just going to be orders of magnitude better than. Wells Fargo and all the other legacy banks that just don't understand anything and aren't trying, aren't Wells Fargo and all the legacy banks are having that revolution happen to them. The DeFi bankless revolution. Coinbase is undergoing the revolution. They are taking the revolution by the horns and saying, we are going to be a new age bank with perhaps DeFi in the back. And it's going to be able to just, they're going to give better products and services to their customers.

• 29:13David Hoffman?

  USC staking on Coinbase is, not staking, but like APY is 1%, which I mean, it's not high comparison to DeFi, but it's still like 100 times higher than your typical checking and savings account in Wells Fargo. And so these new crypto banks are the new banks. They are the new banks for the young people who are ready to accept them.

• 29:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know what, David? I, I love that description. I also would say, let's not stop at a new set of banking systems. Let's also go to DeFi. But I think Coinbase, to your point, is aware of what's going on in DeFi too. In fact, DeFi has written all over their risk section in this filing of, of what could potentially disrupt even Coinbase. So they're looking at that. One way to your point that DeFi is kind of forcing Coinbase's hand a little bit, and maybe a small ways. Coinbase just gave all of their employees, their 1,700 employees, shares. Just airdropped them Coinbase shares. Like this sounds similar to some of the, the token mechanisms that we've seen in DeFi. And I think it's maybe a nod of recognition of, of what's going on in DeFi.

• 30:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  They had to sort of do the same thing.

• 30:22David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we, we wrote about Uniswap when Uniswap gave 400 tokens to all of its users. Unfortunately Coinbase regulatorily and just like logistically can't airdrop Coinbase equity to all of its users. Also, there's like 48 million Coinbase users when there was only like

• 30:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, I wish they figured out a way to do that. Hopefully Gemini will when they IPO.

• 30:43David Hoffman?

  But like, companies don't do this. Companies don't have to give their employees equity. Coinbase elected to do this. And this is something that I see like as crypto culture exporting itself into the rest of the world. The values and ethos of what happens when you distribute wealth in ways that benefit more people looks good upon you. And this is a planting a flag for all the legacy companies that never did anything like this for their employees. Coinbase is like, "Look, we're the hot new thing on the legacy stock market, and we just gave all of our employees $25,000." No matter if they are an entry-level employee, or they are a C-level employee, everyone got the same number of shares airdropped to them.

• 31:28David Hoffman?

  This is a new, we are moving the overton window of capital into better and better wealth distribution mechanisms. And I think that this got started by Uniswap, and now it's moving its way into the equity market with Coinbase. Nice job, Brian.

• 31:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  I hope.

• 31:43David Hoffman?

  Nice job, Brian.

• 31:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  I hope that the next crypto bank IPO listing rewards some users. That would be awesome.

• 31:50David Hoffman?

  That would be awesome.

• 31:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  So if the Winklevoss twins are listening, guys, if you can make that happen when you go public, that would be really cool. Okay. David, let's go to some Ethereum upgrades. The first is this. Ethereum just had a new upgrade. So this is a hard fork of Ethereum, but like, not an aggressive hard fork where a third party, this is a kind of a planned community hard fork where everyone decides to update their nodes. What was packed inside of this Berlin upgrade?

• 32:19David Hoffman?

  Yeah, a bunch of just deep coding stuff that I am not familiar with. Some gas prices got remanaged, some new transaction types are in there. Really, it's just some protocol, deep protocol level stuff that I just don't understand. It doesn't really impact the average user of Ethereum. But as an unfortunate result of these hard forks that Ethereum commits to every now and then to upgrade the network, we actually had some hiccups with one specific client, which resulted in some bugs that people dropped off the network. So that's why you might have gotten some bad... Reporting if you use Zap or Xerion, some tokens didn't show up or EtherScan was reporting stale transactions, stuff like that.

• 32:59David Hoffman?

  We had some consensus issues. There's already a update sent out to the open Ethereum client, which is the client that was experiencing these bugs. And so if you are running an open Ethereum client, make sure you go update that to the new patch that was just released.

• 33:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep, I believe it's already been taken care of. And of course, this was not like core consensus issues. This was issues with like block explorers and people using the open Ethereum clients. It's also why we have client diversity, as we talked about in the Justin Drake article.

• 33:28David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 33:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  In the Justin Drake podcast, of course. The important thing, if you're a regular Ethereum user, nothing you have to do. Everything is upgraded for you and we are one step closer to the next hard fork, the London hard fork, which includes EIP 1559. Yeah, that is not a minor change. That is a very exciting change. Maybe coming this summer, we'll see.

• 33:51David Hoffman?

  If I get my Ethereum knowledge right, there's some of the updates in this hard fork were prerequisites of EIP 1559. And so that leads into that. So now, next step, EIP 1559 in a couple of months.

• 34:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  There you go. All right. David, Consensus, the people behind MetaMask, the people behind Infura, a number of early Ethereum projects that have been so Gitcoin, so important to the success of Ethereum, just raised $65 million. And who they raised it from is super interesting to me. JP Morgan, Mastercard, UBS, they raised it from traditional finance. What are your thoughts here, David?

• 34:27David Hoffman?

  Yeah, JP Morgan has always had a really close relationship with Consensus. They worked on the, JP Morgan had their own private implementation of Ethereum, then Consensus bought it. They've been shaking hands for a while now. Yeah, and I think Consensus is about to really pivot into a new consensus, right? We're about to talk about Gitcoin and how Gitcoin pivoted away from Consensus. And I think Consensus is pivoting into a studio, an advisory studio or software studio, specifically for big name clients like JP Morgan, like Mastercard, who know that Ethereum can help them do stuff, but they don't have the employees or the builders or the knowledge to build it the right way. So they're tapping into the power of Consensus to get that done.

• 35:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it definitely reflects a desire from some of these legacy banking and traditional financial systems to get exposure into the crypto realm. So that I suppose is a good thing. And let's talk about Gitcoin itself. So they have just, as you were mentioning, spun out of consensus. So what's Gitcoin doing here, David?

• 35:33David Hoffman?

  Gitcoin raised 11, over 11 million dollars specifically from Paradigm. And Paradigm is like, in my opinion, Ethereum's best VC fund. Paradigm's behind Uniswap, behind some, and they're really leading the charge into optimism and solving minor extractable value. They are solving all of the hard problems in DeFi. And the fact that Paradigm led the round into Gitcoin, which shows that they have a lot of faith in what Gitcoin has to offer. So congratulations to Gitcoin, graduated from consensus into their own thing. And I think there's going to be a lot of cool stuff coming out of the Gitcoin team. They are just doing absolutely fantastic.

• 36:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  We should have them on sometime soon, too. David, let's cut to DYDX, who we just had on Bankless. So, cool thing about DYDX is, they just launched in their own Ethereum secured Layer 2, using some super cool ZK rollup technology. And their volume is just off the charts already, right? So they did 70 million in volume, their perpetuals volume, on the weekly, David. Like, what this tells me is, there is massive demand for Layer 2 block space, and for these decentralized exchanges. Once you release it, once you deploy to Layer 2, we're seeing the demand is already there.

• 36:52David Hoffman?

  Yeah, in under 10 days, the Ether Perpetual, Ether USD Perpetual swap is over 14 million dollars in volume in 24 hours. And again, this is a brand new product. These aren't large numbers comparison to older projects, but these are, this is a brand new thing. And there's already, like, between, and the other cool thing about this is that because they are on Layer 2, they can do more assets than just Bitcoin and Ether. So now there's AVE, Uniswap, and Chainlink. And what Antonio said on our State of the Nation, if you haven't watched that, go watch that, that they are going to roll out one, at least one asset per week. And so I just expect this L2 exchange just to absolutely explode.

• 37:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  And they're definitely going to start with the DeFi assets, I'm pretty sure. All right, let's uh, let's talk about.

• 37:36David Hoffman?

  My F I next is my bet.

• 37:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, uh, let's talk about what else is going on in Maker DAO world, the, the central bank as we were referring to it.

• 37:44David Hoffman?

  The, the decentral bank.

• 37:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  The decentral central bank. They're getting into real world assets and this has long been a part of the, the Maker multilateral uh, DAI vision is can we get some more stability for DAI from off-chain assets? Here's one of their first, I think they've had several before, um, but what is this? What are they doing here with this real world asset in Maker DAO backing DAI?

• 38:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so it's, it's important, like you said, DAI wants to be backed as many different assets as possible because that's how you achieve maximum stability. If we only had DAI that was backed by Ether and then Ether dropped by 50%, that's really threatening to DAI. So not only should we diversify between other on-chain assets, we should also diversify to off-chain assets. And we are now seeing commercial real estate loans, short-term loans coming out of Maker DAO uh, to, to help, uh, to, to help bridge the gap for liquidity for people who are investing in real estate. Uh, and so this is, this is very interesting. Off-chain, there's an off-chain underwriter, I believe, I'm fuzzy on the details, it's very legally complex.

• 38:49David Hoffman?

  But people that are needing liquidity that they can't find elsewhere can come to Maker DAO, strike a deal with the DAO and the DAO can offer them DAI liquidity for their collateral. Uh, and then there's also the, the uh, infrastructure set up under the conditions of maybe there's a housing market crash. Who liquidates the property to pay back the DAI? All of that is managed, uh, and so, um, there's one world of off-chain assets becoming tokenized on Ethereum and then those tokens trading around. There's the other world of just off-chain assets only going into credit facilities like Maker DAO and staying there. And then the value of these tokens being turned into DAI and sent into DeFi, which is also almost kind of the same thing at the end of the day.

• 39:30David Hoffman?

  Uh, and this model seems to be the model that is, is being pioneered here and perhaps going to be the one into the future.

• 39:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's interesting with like Maker has taken this approach where of course this, some of this is settled in meat space, right? So it's not completely trustless. But at the same time, there is a lot of meat space assets that are available to back DAI that could be partially imported into the DeFi ecosystem. Something like 100 trillion, maybe more like 100 to 250 trillion in like real estate assets. Imagine all of that on Ethereum. You could mint a lot more DAI if you had access to a portion of that real estate capital pool. So this is some of it's starting to bleed over.

• 40:11David Hoffman?

  Just some grounding here, there's 500,000 DAI being minted on the back of these real estate loans. So DAI I think is over 3 billion total DAI, so not a great-

• 40:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just a tiny bit.

• 40:20David Hoffman?

  Just a tiny bit. Foot in the door, I'm expecting to grow.

• 40:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep, alright, let's talk about NFTs, David. This is cool. Epic, Epic Games, studio behind Fortnite.

• 40:29David Hoffman?

  Holy shit, yeah, that's obvious.

• 40:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so what are they doing here? They've got some plans for the metaverse for NFTs? What are the plans here?

• 40:38David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so Epic Games, the team behind Fortnite, and Fortnite just exploded onto the scene, I think in like 2019, 2020. And Fortnite was free, but they made an insane amount of money selling skins and like other packages. And so I think what they are seeing is they are seeing the possibility of making NFTs on Fortnite, perhaps tradable skins, tradable unique assets, I don't know. But it's just obvious that some company that is making a killing selling assets in the game, transitions those assets into NFTs on Ethereum. We know that this is product market fit. I have no faith, or a complete faith.

• 41:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, extreme faith.

• 41:18David Hoffman?

  No faith, no faith.

• 41:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know who this is also good for is those building infrastructure for these big game studios. One of the companies building infrastructure for these studios is Immutable. And they have a ZK rollup base, Starkware technology, the same technology that powers DYDX, which we just talked about. They've rolled that up into an NFT specific exchange that is secured by Ethereum. Perhaps that's something that Epic can tap into in the future. And they've just announced a ton of different launch partners too. This is pretty cool.

• 41:53David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and the golden age of NFT gaming is perhaps ahead of us, specifically enabled by Immutable and Immutable X by Immutable. Immutable is also the team behind Gods Unchained, the trading card game. And so they are eating their own dog food. They needed their scaling solution to build, to make Gods Unchained their game that they made better. And so they made Immutable X. And so they know what they needed, and then they built it. And now all these other platform games are coming to deploy themselves on Immutable X.

• 42:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  On Immutable X, like, gas, there's no such thing as gas transactions. Like, it's basically all free.

• 42:28David Hoffman?

  Micro pennies in instant time.

• 42:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's so scalable. Absolutely. And still secured by Ethereum. So, super cool. I'm expecting big things here, David, especially as these game studios start to enter, these legacy game studios. Let's talk regulation. Gary Gensler confirmed, finally confirmed, as Joe Biden's SEC Chair, replacing Jay Powell, who's not, like, there was a, I think there was an intern person taking that role. But Jay Powell was the last chairman under the Trump administration. What are your thoughts here?

• 43:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so we just had that podcast with Hester, Hester Purse, who expressed optimism about Gary Gensler as the SEC Chairman. And this is not a world that I'm familiar with, but Hester Purse is Crypto Mom, and Crypto Mom is giving Gary Gensler the thumbs up. And so if, if, if you don't care about regulations, it's kind of all you needed to know. But we do want faster, quicker regulation coming out of the SEC to help provide clarity for teams that just need to do stuff. Issue tokens. Hester Purse has this three-year, three-year clause that allows people to do, to issue tokens and have them not be securities, so long as they decentralize within three years.

• 43:41David Hoffman?

  If that gets passed, that's really, really awesome for clarity for people that want to issue tokens, but feel like they are hamstrung by regulation. So many good things, I think, can come out of this, and I'm optimistic for it.

• 43:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, this three-year safe harbor proposal, which she talked about in the podcast that just came out on Monday on the Bankless podcast. She has updated that and she actually put it in GitHub for like people to comment on, people to fork. Super cool, super like crypto native of her.

• 44:07David Hoffman?

  Why, why is she called Crypto Mom?

• 44:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly. Just so plugged in. That you gotta catch that podcast. You get a sense of her perspective on Gary Gensler. I, I feel like if I'm reading between the lines, Gary Gensler may not give crypto everything it wants. In fact, some things might be not great for crypto, but it will give clarity.

• 44:27David Hoffman?

  Which is great.

• 44:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  It seems like, which, which is a benefit and which is good. And Hester seemed pretty confident of that. So we'll see how that evolves. Probably good news for crypto on balance. David, let's talk about some, some weird news. I don't know why banks are doing this, right? Like so Bankless Twitter tweeted out, whoever controls that account, Bankless Twitter.

• 44:48David Hoffman?

  Who does that?

• 44:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  On Coinbase launch day.

• 44:49David Hoffman?

  No clue who even controls that anymore.

• 44:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't even know. I just see the tweets and I'm like, oh yeah, I agree with this. Tweeted out, "The banks are scared" on Coinbase launch day. And you know what? I think they are scared, David. You know why? Because Coinbase is creeping up in market cap to some of the biggest banks in the world. It's, it's like a shot across the bow. This is a tweet from Cameron Winkleboss. He's saying, you know, he's quoting that Gandhi, Gandhi quote and he says like, you know, then they fight you. This is the banks fighting us apart. HSBC, a major bank, I think the sixth largest bank in the world, is not only banning the purchase of Bitcoin through your HSB client. They don't want you purchasing Bitcoin through

• 45:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  them, but you can't even purchase companies, stock publicly traded companies like MicroStrategy that own Bitcoin. They're stopping that too. They're banning that too. This is a memo from HSBC to all of its clients that you can no longer purchase MicroStrategy because they have Bitcoin crypto on the balance sheet. David, what is going on? Who do these banks think they are?

• 45:57David Hoffman?

  This is so dumb. Like why, just why control it? Like there's probably some compliance reasons. That some of the lawyers or compliance teams say, hey, we shouldn't do this. But other other people are doing it and like there's no benefit to this for their customers. Their customers only lose like and and why are you fighting it? It just makes no sense to me. I do not get it like any anytime a bank fights this. They leave the opportunity for the banks to not fight it to profit from it.

• 46:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Coinbase gets it. Coinbase grows in market cap, grows in influence.

• 46:29David Hoffman?

  But I hope Coinbase is like, yes, please ban everything. Every single bank banned Bitcoin so we can have it all. Like this is just a nonsensical strategy. And it's just insulting to the self sovereignty of people everywhere. And a stark reminder as to why money needs to be a public good. Because if they can control what you buy and how you buy it. Then you are under the control of people dictating your lives, which I'm personally not a fan of.

• 46:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  I know this about you. I do feel like they're digging their own grave, David. But you know what? The fact that they have the audacity to do it so blatantly. Right? Like, I think they know that they still have some strings that they can pull. They have a monopolistic, private, public partnership with nation states. They have lobbyists in Washington. They have lobbyists in London. They have lobbyists in all of the governments all over the world. There are some strings they could pull. And if things get nasty and they really want to stop crypto. I think they may try to pull those strings as well. So we'll see if they ramp up and escalate the fight long term. They're digging their own grave, but short term, I think they still think they're in power. They still think they can control us, man.

• 47:42David Hoffman?

  Oh, that's cute. That's cute of them that they think that. I do want there to be at least one bank that tries to do everything in their power to stop this revolution from happening. Just so we have this example model of like what a complete failure looks like in five to 15 years.

• 47:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Maybe it's HSBC. I feel like it's not going to be Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo is just going to be like, eh, we're not doing anything. We're not innovating, whatever.

• 48:06David Hoffman?

  We're good here. We're gonna do nothing.

• 48:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, David, we've got some hot takes we've got to get to that are super cool. But before we do, let's talk about the sponsors that made this roll up possible.

• 48:19David Hoffman?

  Bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum, which is what Ryan and I call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. Something brand new in the Uniswap ecosystem is the Uniswap Grants Program is now accepting applications for grants. We have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again. DAOs have money and they are in need of labor. If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswap DAO, apply for a grant to Uniswap.

• 49:03David Hoffman?

  Just look at the size of the Uniswap treasury. It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor. Do you have something of value to contribute to the Uniswap DAO? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a uni-grant at unigrants.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think it should go. That's exactly what we did to get Uniswap to be a sponsor for Bankless and you can do the same for your project. Thank you, Uniswap, for sponsoring Bankless. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017 and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto buys and sells. Gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide

• 49:47David Hoffman?

  and on Gemini there are markets for over 30 various different crypto assets, including many of the hot DeFi tokens. And it's one of the few exchanges that has liquid DAI markets. Gemini just launched their Earn program, where you can earn up to 7.4% interest on 26 various crypto assets. If you're tired of paying fees in DeFi or you don't want to worry about DeFi exploits, but you still want to earn interest on your crypto assets, Gemini Earn is the product for you. Another product I'm stoked to get my hands on is the Gemini Crypto Back Credit Card, which gives you 3% cash back on all of your purchases, but paid to you in your preferred crypto asset. When I get my Gemini credit card, I'm going to make sure that I get my cash back in ETH. I buy something, I get a little bit of ETH bonus back to me at the same time.

• 50:33David Hoffman?

  You can open up a free account in under three minutes at Gemini.com/goBanklist. And if you trade more than a hundred dollars within the first 30 days after signup, you'll be gifted a free $15 Bitcoin bonus. Check them out at Gemini.com/goBanklist.

• 50:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, we are back with the takes of the week. Here's a take, kind of a news take, but also a take in and of itself. Wall Street Bets, r/wallstreetbets, of course, that made news like worldwide when the GME GameStop stock fiasco was going on. They have previously not allowed crypto discussion. David Bankless has tried to get in there, post something cool like, hey, check what we're doing in DeFi. New swap, ban, instant ban.

• 51:17David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 51:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Now, they've just released, the mods have just released a post that said crypto discussion is now okay. This has got to be partially as a result of the Coinbase coin listing. What are your thoughts here?

• 51:29David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we've talked a few times about this in the distant past, specifically during DeFi summer, about the concept of composable communities. The Bankless Nation and the Wall Street Bets communities are extremely composable.

• 51:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  They just don't know it yet.

• 51:45David Hoffman?

  They just don't know it yet. There's perhaps more ape culture and more degen culture in Wall Street Bets.

• 51:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Really?

• 51:51David Hoffman?

  Oh, yeah, dude, they, yeah, they YOLO into GME or whatever. Yeah, for sure.

• 51:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  More degen than DeFi?

• 51:56David Hoffman?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They are, they are. They are C-Fi degens, absolutely they are. And, and I like, I don't think they understand the degree of product market fit that DeFi has for some of these people. And I really am hopeful that the Wall Street Bets community and the Bankless and DeFi communities have this fantastic marriage. So if any listener is a part of both, do your best to be in the Wall Street Bets subreddit and talk about this subject because like, they already know what it's like to be censored. They already know the pains of centralization. They love to degen and ape, like, what more do they want? And so help spread that message.

• 52:39David Hoffman?

  If you're in the Wall Street Bets subreddit, help spread that message. We're trying to get in there, we're trying to shake hands with the community. We want them to be listeners and subscribers to Bankless and we want to help them go Bankless because that's what they want, they just don't know it yet.

• 52:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think this is a major step, though, to like tearing down the wall. And I think, what was the wall constructed because it's 2017, David? They had a whole bunch of these like, you know, useless token projects who are spanning them and then crypto is a scam, all of this. And so they they created this blanket policy. Well, things are changing. The narrative is changing. Now could be the time for more composability. David, I've got a take here. You ready for it?

• 53:17David Hoffman?

  Let's do it.

• 53:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Dude, people say Ethereum is hard to use, right? People say that. Have you ever tried to register an LLC on a state website, state of Idaho, state of Virginia, state of Washington? Like, set up an LLC and pay with holdings. Have you ever tried to do that?

• 53:34David Hoffman?

  Uh, yeah, it's pretty goddamn awful.

• 53:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's terrible. Like, these state websites.

• 53:39David Hoffman?

  I want to rip my eyeballs out.

• 53:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  There, it feels like they're they're built in circa, you know, 2000 and like, no one updates them.

• 53:47David Hoffman?

  It's like they don't want you to do that. It's like, hey.

• 53:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  They make it so difficult. And every single state has a, like, a certain thing you have to register. Like, their entire companies, like Gusto and other third parties, that just basically take care of that pain for you now.

• 54:02David Hoffman?

  Thank God for them.

• 54:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Infrastructure we've had to build on top of this. But I'm just comparing that because what are these state registries? Well, they're just basically a legal meatspace way to register what? Register a capital pool. That's what an LLC is. That's what a C corp is, a capital pool. Well, I could do the same thing on Ethereum.

• 54:21David Hoffman?

  And do that for breakfast.

• 54:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  With one transaction. Yeah, like, seriously.

• 54:24David Hoffman?

  Capital pools for breakfast.

• 54:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is what I mean. So there are some things on Ethereum that are are already 10x better, right? Like, people don't think of Ethereum as as competing with, like, state registries and governments and LLC and C corp. But it kind of does.

• 54:42David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 54:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? I could spin up a DAO, capital pool, anyone can join it, multi-sig. I've got my banking structure, uh, structure already built into the system. I've got like, any, I've got an ID system built. Everyone has basically their Ethereum address as their their bank account. It's just a couple of clicks. So it makes me pretty excited about the. disruptive capability, even though Ethereum is hard to use, right? It is.

• 55:06David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 55:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's, it's already better. If you know MetaMask and you're kind of a DeFi super user, it's already better than what we have today in these state registry systems.

• 55:15David Hoffman?

  It's much, much preferable than all other legacy financial institutions. Yeah, you said it very well. No, no, no more needs to be said about that.

• 55:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, let's, let's get some more from Hayden then. Hayden Adams, a Bankless Podcast guest now, Bankless Podcast alumni. Really excited about that. What's his take here, David?

• 55:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah, he, his take is that the New York Stock Exchange has 2,800 trading pairs over the last 228 years. And Uniswap V2 has 36,000 trading pairs in one year. Two of those I've made, POV Crypto Token. There's a trading pair there and this other token, BAP, BAP token also as well. Two trading pairs. I listed two tokens on markets with Uniswap. Imagine me trying to get something listed on the NYSE. Wouldn't happen. Wouldn't happen. And this is exactly to your point. Like all of the stuff that requires paper pushing and bureaucracy is just now it's just a transaction on Ethereum. Just done. Like, here it is. Like, oh, you want a trading pair? Sure. You, I'll just, you have to bring your own liquidity.

• 56:16David Hoffman?

  But like, whatever, just, just build it and then you can build it.

• 56:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  It just reminds me, people want an analog, right? Like in the early days of media, they were like, what? Like four different news stations. That's it, right? And then, then we move to YouTube. You have like hundreds of thousands of channels.

• 56:33David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 56:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? Like millions of channels, millions of different content producers. Everyone can produce content. It democratized media. We're, we're democratizing finance. We're democratizing asset creation and asset exchange. Everything's going to be tokenized. This is why Uniswap now has 13x or more the amount of trading pairs than the New York Stock Exchange. It's only been around for like two years, three years.

• 56:57David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 56:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like it's incredible.

• 56:58David Hoffman?

  Imagine how many it's going to have by the end of this bull market.

• 57:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  And what's crazy to me is people don't see this coming and it's like it's coming, it's happening.

• 57:06David Hoffman?

  Dharma sees it coming because you can, anything that's on Uniswap, you can get into it with Dharma.

• 57:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  There you go, there you go. Um, all right, let's talk about um, this tweet, I guess. All right. So this shows how early we are. This is a, uh, somebody called my attention to this. This is somebody on Bloomberg. Um, and they are showing a, a ticker chart of like Bitcoins.

• 57:28David Hoffman?

  Crypto assets and crypto related assets.

• 57:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, yes, they misspelled Ethereum. So it says Ethereum.

• 57:34David Hoffman?

  Yeah, they missed the E at the start.

• 57:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  They missed the E at the start and it feels to me like, so that the anchor is kind of sitting here presenting it, right? Like Ethereum is still not a mainstream finance name. They're still misspelling it.

• 57:46David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 57:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  On uh, on broadcast TV. This is how early we are, David.

• 57:51David Hoffman?

  And it should be ether, not Ethereum. This is actually something that, that bugs me about even people inside the, the crypto spaces. Like they say like, oh, I bought three Ethereum's like, no, you didn't. You didn't buy three Ethereum's. You bought three ether. Like get that, uh, it's a, it's a nuanced point, but like it's important.

• 58:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  I agree. I agree. That's important. I've, I in like, I used to correct people and I used to be like, I know what you mean is ether. But like now I've taken it just like, hey, it's just more important that we're talking about Ethereum and like, like, so I don't correct people. But people in the know, know that there is ether in the network and ether the asset definitely. Which brings me to a question. I actually tweeted this out and I want your perspective on it, David. This is a survey I tweeted out. How much longer will this bull market last? And so I put four options here, three to six months, six to 12 months, 12 to 18 months. Or more than 18 months. And you can see the results here on the screen. Forty-six percent, the vast majority said three to six months. Uh, and then it was kind of scattered through the other answers.

• 58:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  What do you think, David?

• 58:54David Hoffman?

  Well, let me, let me finish off going through the numbers. So 46 months for three, 46% said three to six months. Thirty percent said six to 12 months. Only seven percent said 12 to 18 months. And then 16%, 16% said more than 18 months. Uh, I was in the uh, seven percent. Of 12 to 8 months, so I was in the significant minority.

• 59:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  12 to 18.

• 59:14David Hoffman?

  12 to 18 months, yes, right. And like, I'm super surprised by people only thinking that this cycle goes for only 3 to 6 more months. I guess I'm a contrarian. We have more than 6 months less in this thing, absolutely.

• 59:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, but let me ask you, so 12 to 18 months, that's longer than previous cycles. So you are a long cycle believer then?

• 59:35David Hoffman?

  I am a fan of the super cycle thesis, yes. 2 cycles in 1, I'm a fan of this, yep.

• 59:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  So this is that the cycles, the bull market cycles just get longer, that's what you mean?

• 59:45David Hoffman?

  Longer and bigger, and bigger, because we are in a late-stage fiat credit cycle. Money is free, money is distorted, and there's so much cash looking for places to go. And crypto assets are the only remaining unallocated asset class that is specifically antagonistic to the decline of fiat. If there's ever going to be a super cycle in crypto, it's now. This is the cycle that crypto goes mainstream. Maybe in 3 to 6 months, where all these 46% of respondents saying that's where the bull market ends, maybe that's when we have a very significant 40 to 50% correction. And then we just keep on fucking going for 6 to 12 more months. Like, it's super cycle, it's super cycle time.

• 1:00:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, let me ask you, do you believe that this is the last cycle? And here's what I mean by that, there is a thesis that goes around in crypto, which is like, this isn't going to be pattern recognition for the past 4 to 5 cycles that we've seen in crypto. This time it's different, this time we go mainstream. Don't expect your 80 to 90% drawdowns on Bitcoin and Ether, at least. And maybe even DeFi tokens, this is the point, we've already passed the point of no return. We're not going to get those types of things moving forward, and so this is really the last cycle. So what that's kind of saying is, there won't really be a bear market after this. Like, we'll see dips, but it'll level off, what do you think about that?

• 1:01:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think that's completely in line with the super cycle thesis, right? When we were in the bear market in 2018, 2019, I was listening to, and I was still very new to crypto at that time. People are saying like, oh, this new cycle is during the next cycle, there's going to be all the gains again because crypto markets go in cycles. And I was thinking it's like, but if everyone knows it goes in cycles, like if everyone knows it, it shouldn't be like that. It should do something different. It turns out it did exactly like what people said. We had, we're just going through a crypto cycle right now, but the difference is, is that crypto is mainstream now. And now there are the world's largest capital institutions buying into crypto assets. Bitcoin, ether, putting on the balance sheet, investing in the space. The difference is that there is no further places to go after this.

• 1:01:55David Hoffman?

  The, the top of the 2017 markets, we did not breach into the mainstream. We did not breach into hedge funds. We didn't have a micro strategy. This time we have all those things. There's no further places to go. There's already like conspiracies about central banks stacking Bitcoin. Like there's no, there's no further places to go, right? And so in six, three to six months, we maybe we top out and then have a big correction. But that correction just gets bought really hard and then we just keep on going and then all of a sudden crypto is mainstream.

• 1:02:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  So I didn't vote in my own poll, but do you know what I would have voted for?

• 1:02:25David Hoffman?

  What would you have voted for, Ron?

• 1:02:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  What? Guess. You should guess.

• 1:02:28David Hoffman?

  More than 18 months.

• 1:02:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, six to 12 months.

• 1:02:32David Hoffman?

  Six to 12 months?

• 1:02:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. I think, I think that, so I think that you could be right. And there's some probability that what you're saying, long cycle, super cycle, last cycle is right. But I also think that this could get crazier. And we've seen every, every single cycle of crypto get so insane and so out of whack. So far stretched above even fundamentals at the time that the valuations don't make sense.

• 1:03:05David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:03:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? Like it's just a dot com boom, if you will. So I kind of feel like we're going to see a repeat of 2017.

• 1:03:12David Hoffman?

  Blow off top.

• 1:03:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  60, 12 months, blow off top. Now, I don't think we'll lose like 95% in ether and we probably won't lose 80% in Bitcoin. So it'll be muted, but I do think it could play out the, the six to 12 months. So I sort of feel like, and here, here's the last thing I'll say on that is as kind of the. The other perspective on this, if people, like the onus is on people who are saying this time it's different to like disprove the pattern. And the problem is, patterns can become self fulfilling prophecies, right? So like, if all of the crypto OGs are like, oh, yeah, we've seen this before. We've seen this four times. Like, this is what the cycle looks like. At a certain point, they start selling, it creates a self fulfilling, reflexive,

• 1:03:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  flywheel effect on the way down. So, I'm not saying for sure, but if I had to guess, I feel like we've got six to 12 months, and then some form of a bear market. But we'll see. I hope you're right, David. You could be right, man. We'll see.

• 1:04:10David Hoffman?

  Super cycle.

• 1:04:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Super cycle, alright. Let's talk about this one. So, this is Jimmy Regosa, I believe. What's he saying here?

• 1:04:19David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so this is an important takeaway for what Ethereum is, and why Ethereum has so much sticking power. If any new technology that gets discovered, it actually, it finds a way to be built on top of Ethereum, and tap into the power of Ethereum. Rather than building a competitor, you could actually instead just build an L2 or a sidechain that hooks right into Ethereum, and tap into all the benefits of Ethereum, rather than trying to have to get this new technology bootstrapped from day one. So, you know, Neo, EOS Tron, they turn into apps in 2017. Solana, Binance Chain, they'll turn into apps in 2021. Anything, any innovation that can be placed on, that can be built, can be placed on Ethereum.

• 1:05:02David Hoffman?

  And if it can be placed on Ethereum, it is going to be easier to get that thing bootstrapped, than just to build a desperate, separate, siloed ecosystem. So, Ethereum is the aggregation layer of all technology. And that's the take here.

• 1:05:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  I've heard this a lot in the Ethereum community. It's basically like, now we're seeing Solana, and Binance Smart Chain, and maybe a couple of others, Polkadot, maybe this new kind of breed of ETH killer. But we've seen this movie before. And last cycle, it was the same thing. It was called Neo EOS Tron, right? These are no longer the ETH killers. So, I, you know, I tend to believe that. Very much. I think this cycle continues to repeat. But is this an Ethereum maximalist take from your perspective? Let's go to the next take. This is this is one that that Bankless retweeted. And this is Vitalik Buterin on a post in r/ethfinance.

• 1:05:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think the the author of the post, the OP, was basically saying, hey, I'm starting to hear a lot of Ethereum maximalist type of propaganda. So he compared it to Bitcoin maximalism and like Saffadina Moose and some of the quotes they're saying. There's like, I'm hearing the same sort of thing, like Ethereum is the only one. It will crush all competitors, like beware and be fearful. And Vitalik is responding to that. And what is he saying in his response?

• 1:06:26David Hoffman?

  Yeah, let me just read this out. Thanks for doing this. We need to be alert to make sure that we do not become the thing that we fight against. I would much rather see people support the Ethereum ecosystem because they agree with its values and social and technological vision, and not because we are the strong big thing, everyone else is a loser, and we will crush them. Focusing on the former reinforces the community's moral virtues. Focusing on the latter equally attracts people who have those virtues, the price go up, number go up virtues, and people who do not, and perhaps the latter group. And so it ultimately erodes them. So this is a conversation on values. Do we want people to come into Ethereum because of the technological and cultural merits that it has?

• 1:07:08David Hoffman?

  Or do we want people to come into Ethereum because it's going to crush competitors and it's going to win? Which one do we want to promote as a community? And then Vitalik finishes it finishes with, and if the values erode too much, anyone outside the ecosystem really will have a hard time seeing the difference between Ethereum and any other chain. So what's Vitalik is saying is we should promote Ethereum based on its merits, not because it's going to crush competitors.

• 1:07:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  I wholeheartedly agree with that take and you know, I think what somebody might respond when they read that from Vitalik is basically like, oh, so you're saying every chain is the same, right? And I also, I don't think that's what Vitalik's saying. It's definitely not what I would say, right? The values are really of the chain are really embedded in the protocol itself. And Ethereum has bankless values, decentralization values, right? It is not a protocol that is aiming to be built for a small set of validators and folks that can kind of collude together and censor transactions, right? So I do think that it's important not to become sort of a chain

• 1:08:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  agnostic, because if you're chain agnostic, you're also values agnostic. And I'm not values agnostic, right? Like, I'm here for bankless. I'm here so that we can go bankless, not so that we can instill a new set of bankers who now control the Binance Smart Chain. So I totally resonate with what he's saying. I think it's a great point, and only Vitalik can can put it in that way. David, should we get to the last? What are you excited about this week, my friend?

• 1:08:42David Hoffman?

  Yeah, you want to take this one first round?

• 1:08:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, okay, you want me to tell you what I'm excited about?

• 1:08:47David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Coin. I'm coin release, Coinbase, man. Like, that's, uh, this is crazy. So what I think we're seeing here is blitzscaling, right? So some Silicon Valley have written posts about blitzscaling in the context of social media, but this is money system blitzscaling, financial system blitzscaling. So Wells Fargo, about 130, 140 or so billion in market cap, right? And we've got Coinbase creeping up on Wells Fargo numbers, right? Like, close to 100 billion or so. Wouldn't be surprised if it exceeds Wells Fargo. Here's the thing. Wells Fargo has 45,000 employees, okay?

• 1:09:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  160 years of Wells Fargo to get to that market capitalization. Coinbase is about to achieve the same thing in nine years. Okay, with 1,700 employees. Nine years, 1,700 employees. That is blitz scaling. How are they able to do this? Because they built on crypto. They didn't built in the legacy finance, traditional world. They didn't built purely on nation state based technology. They built on crypto rails. So that's crazy. Order of magnitude gain. Okay, what's next? What's next is DeFi. What's next is Uniswap. So another order of magnitude gain. You've got Uniswap, which is 38 billion. I would not be surprised, David, if we see sometime in this market cycle an $100 billion uni token.

• 1:10:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, it's not that far off at this point, right? We talked about how crazy market cycles can get. How many employees? 20 employees. Okay, another order of magnitude improvement. And they did it in two years, three years? Like, this is absolutely crazy. I think the outside world, we've talked about so often, right? We're talking the hidden podcast. Why isn't the world talking about the Uniswap story? You know why? I think, after some reflection? It's because it's happening way too fast. Right. Like, they don't even see it coming. Uncomprehendable. It's uncomprehendable. Like, this is not growing in the way that Wells Fargo. They can barely wrap their mind around Coinbase's growth. They haven't, banks haven't grappled with that. And now they're going to be faced with the next bank killer,

• 1:10:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  which is DeFi Protocols? Good game, banks. Right. Like, it's over. So, that's why I'm excited in the context of the coin launch. The banks can no longer control what's going on. They see coin, they see its market cap, they see Coinbase. They're going to start getting involved in this. But, you know, the competition is just heating up and they're not going to be able to react fast enough to the blitz level of scaling that's happening in DeFi.

• 1:11:24David Hoffman?

  And this is, this is just fits into the pattern of history. Technology and technological adoption just accelerates as, as we move forward. Like the iPhone got adopted over X number of years and then every technology after that just gets adopted faster and faster and faster. And that's what we, that's what I see, see happening in the DeFi space. And also why, here's what I'm excited about, Ryan. And as a result of that adoption, quickening adoption, I'm excited for retail season. Retail season marks the top in 2017 and I think it'll mark the top in this bull cycle as well. But again, it'll be extended and we just have the infrastructure and the reasons to support retail. And I am getting, I've been getting texts about crypto for a while, but-

• 1:12:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  So are we in retail season?

• 1:12:08David Hoffman?

  We are start, we are in the beginning of retail season is what I'm getting for. Like Wall Street Bets just opened up to Bitcoin and Ether. And I'm just, I'm getting texts from, from people that I haven't really talked to that in a while that are asking me about like Chainlink and Doge. And so retail season is definitely getting started and I think that's ahead of us. And that's why infrastructure like Dharma is going to be really, really helpful to get retail bank accounts connected right into DeFi in a way that treats them like a user of Robinhood with a customer experience. Retail season on the way.

• 1:12:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  I would love to read the responses to those texts where you, when they ask you about-

• 1:12:43David Hoffman?

  I said Bitcoin and Ether only. And then, and then I got the response, well, what about Chainlink? And I'm like, what, no, Bitcoin and Ether only. And then they're like, what about Doge? And I'm like Bitcoin or Ether only? And it just took, it took a while. I don't have too much faith.

• 1:12:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's just, it's just like, you gotta start there and understand why Bitcoin and Ether are valuable before you go anywhere else. So it's definitely our advice to people who are new. David, you ready for meme of the week time?

• 1:13:08David Hoffman?

  Meme of the week, best part of the bankless week, it rolled up. That's why we put it at the end.

• 1:13:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm sharing it. All right, gains in real life matter too. What are we looking at here?

• 1:13:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so this is a meme that's been going around the internet. This was created by the guy behind the bankless Twitter. His name's Mike Wong. And it's got two, two ladies in the gym and they are looking at someone and they're asking, what is, what do you think he's listening to? And the second lady says probably heavy metal or hard rock. And then, and then it turns into the, the guy who's also the yes guy, the, the Chad yes person. I'm pretty sure that's what this illustration is. And this guy who's lifting 500 pound dumbbell curls. And the text is, and this is alluding to what he's listening to in his headphones. Welcome to Bankless, where we explore the frontier of internet money and internet finance. Alluding to the guy that's lifting, getting gains, but he's also getting brain gains as well, listening to Bankless.

• 1:14:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  That is awesome. I love this meme. By the way, do you ever listen to podcasts while you work out? Does this resonate with you?

• 1:14:06David Hoffman?

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:14:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  I do too, like all the time. It's like.

• 1:14:09David Hoffman?

  Brain gains on, on muscle gains, for sure.

• 1:14:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, double, double your gains. Why not? All right, makes sense. All right, David, I think that's all we have for the rollups, guys. Risks and disclaimers, of course. DeFi is risky, so is Bitcoin, so is ETH. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. It's not for everyone, but we're excited that you're on the Bankless journey. Thanks so much for joining us.

• 1:14:32David Hoffman?

  We hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast and community as a Bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your Bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks and exclusive content, and even the Bankless token for airdrops, raffles and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the Bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a Bankless premium subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders,

• 1:15:12David Hoffman?

  Ask Me Anythings and weekly rollups where we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks everyone for watching and being on the journey as we build out the Bankless nation.