224. Question Time: Liz Truss' 'deep state' comments, disability policy, and Shamima Begum

Is it fair that Shamima Begum has been declared stateless? Should Labour prioritise disability policy more? Has taxpayers money paid for Liz Truss' trip to the Conservative Political Action Conference in the US? Listen to Rory and Alastair answer all these questions and more on this week's Question Time. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/risterspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/risterspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:07Speaker 02

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• 1:33Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart.

• 1:36Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Alastair Campbell.

• 1:38Rory Stewart?

  And Alastair, you seem to be back in London, is that right?

• 1:41Alastair Campbell?

  I am. I'm in London. I'm in my house.

• 1:42Rory Stewart?

  There's a very beautiful blue wall behind you.

• 1:44Alastair Campbell?

  Thank you. Yeah, blue wall, supposed to the red wall.

• 1:47Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

• 1:48Alastair Campbell?

  Now, why don't we start with one in Perth and Kinross, Rory? Laurie Hughes, I manage a busy food bank in Perth and Kinross, close to home, Rory. It's the cost of living crisis and yet only a handful of elected officials have ever engaged to ask what we're seeing and hearing. Why is there not more interest in poverty? And how should I call this out? I hear this a lot from people who are involved in that sort of thing, that they, yes, people are aware of the existence of food banks. But when you look at our politics and our media, you don't really see that much focus on what it is like to be so poor that you're having to... You know, regularly rely on handouts and food from other people and organisations.

• 2:28Rory Stewart?

  You're completely right. And obviously Labour talks about it more than the Conservatives, but even Labour doesn't talk about it as much as you'd expect. And I think it's something that I noticed when Ed Meliband was Labour leader, because I think he was talking about the squeezed middle. And it's partly about electoral politics, isn't it, that these parties are competing for the majority of voters. And I think the challenge in British society is the kind of, let's say, seven, 10% of very poorest people in our country, who are often in really horrible situations. Some of them are young, some of them are poor elderly, obviously the homeless, and for me, people coming out of prison, get

• 3:10Rory Stewart?

  very little focus, partly because often those are communities that vote less than other people. In case prisoners, of course, are not allowed to vote. And it's a real test of our society, whether we are properly looking after people. I mean, I'm very hopeful that Labour will increase support. A lot of it is actually cash support. I'm a real believer in cash, as you know. I don't think we should be giving out food, we should be giving cash to people so that they can buy their own food.

• 3:38Alastair Campbell?

  But if you think about the number of people who are using food banks now, you're talking then about increasing universal credit and other benefits on a scale that at the moment Labour are not proposing at all.

• 3:50Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, but we absolutely have to do it because it's very inefficient to be giving people food, partly because I saw in, I went to visit a food bank in the North East, and some people are selling the food which they've been given out the back. Now, I'm not saying this to criticism, in some ways they're forced to. You know, these are people who are really short of cash. But it's something that we see in the developing world, too, that if you only give people food and people have other needs, they'll try to turn that food into cash. It's much more efficient to give them cash in the first place.

• 4:21Alastair Campbell?

  Similar theme, Sam Carlisle, Keir Starmer's talked about his brother having learning difficulties. This is something that's in this new biography by Tom Baldwin. Why is the biggest minority in the UK disabled people not a bigger element of policy decisions and announcements? I guess that is another area, isn't it, where? You know, we all know people who struggle with various forms of disability. And yet, again, it's not really a big central part of the political debate.

• 4:49Rory Stewart?

  It's true. My sister has Down syndrome.

• 4:52Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 4:52Rory Stewart?

  And I think about it a lot and I worry, obviously about her a lot. I mean, I have to say the Scottish government has been very generous and supportive. And in the early days, provided her with career mentoring and support to get into work. But it's still very, very tough. I was watching actually a wonderful, very weird documentary called This Is Not a Horror Film, written and directed by somebody who has Down syndrome. And it's a wonderfully funny, edgy, dangerous thing because Otto is clearly a very eccentric, often outrageous young man who loves kind of dirty jokes and loves horror movies. And who's put this film together. I'd really encourage people to watch it. He's an interesting subject because.

• 5:37Alastair Campbell?

  What's he called again?

• 5:38Rory Stewart?

  He's called Otto Baxter and he's got, you know, he's got Down syndrome. He's got serious learning difficulties and he's produced this documentary called Not a Fucking Horror Story. And it's in which he absolutely engages in all the things that he loves. You know, but he also tells a really moving story about his own life. The way that he was given up for adoption by his mother and how he comes to terms with that. How he comes to terms with the way that people look at him in supermarkets. His own adopted mother who adopted four children with Down syndrome. So it's wonderful that documentary makers are engaging with these kinds of topics. But I also feel as somebody with Down syndrome sister, that I'm not doing enough to make sure that Fiona actually has a fully,

• 6:23Rory Stewart?

  that she's not lonely, that she has a full kind of community around her and society around her. So I'd love to see a government leaning into this more.

• 6:31Alastair Campbell?

  I also think with special educational needs that the issue gets looked at pretty much entirely through, almost through a prism of cost. As opposed to a prism of the opportunity of what talents can we bring out and what opportunities can we develop and give. And, you know, I think it was at Warwickshire Council recently, there was some pretty unpleasant points being made about children with special educational needs. So anyway, I know, I've just recognised the name Sam Carla, I know she's a big campaigner on on special educational needs. And maybe with Keir Starmer, if he does become Prime Minister, having that personal experience, because what's important about, I think about Tom Baldwin's book, is actually, it does sort

• 7:11Alastair Campbell?

  of relate a lot of what's happened in Keir Starmer's childhood and early life and his early adulthood into the kind of person and politician that he's become. So I don't think we should underestimate those kind of personal experiences in people's lives. It's like, you know, the fact that you took that question immediately to a personal experience of yours, your sister, and what that makes you feel about what the Scottish government does, what more you could do, et cetera. I think that those personal experiences in politicians' lives have more impact sometimes than we realise.

• 7:40Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, yeah. And I think that the book is interesting, isn't it? Because it also talks about his strengths and his weaknesses and the way that he felt under a lot of pressure at home, and that's probably created a more guarded personality.

• 7:51Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 7:53Rory Stewart?

  Well, here's one for me, that Cassie Garbutt, is Rory getting grumpy on the hashtag leading interviews? It seems to coincide with his moving back to the UK from Jordan. Also, what's Rory's new US job? Thank you. So, second question. First, my new US job, I'm teaching at Yale University. I teach a course called Grand Strategy. So last week we did the Afghan War, week before Vietnam, taught British Navy in the 18th century, teach ancient Greek wars. It's a way to look at the integration of political, economic, military strategy through history and time, a seminar for students. Am I getting more grumpy? I think I may be.

• 8:27Alastair Campbell?

  By the way, Rory, this question, I spotted this question as well. This question came in before the interview with Jamie Rubin went out. So this grumpiness is being picked up even before the one where you got quite grumpy.

• 8:39Rory Stewart?

  And meanwhile, you're becoming ever more kind of zen and calm, aren't you?

• 8:43Alastair Campbell?

  I don't know about that. Although Jamie Rubin, I went for a cup of tea with him after our interview, and he and he said, yeah, I was. Kind of expected you're usually the one who beats people up and I thought you'd be beating me up. But in fact, you were you were really kind of calm and zen, as you say, and Rory got quite spiky. But I don't think I'm I don't think I'm that much more zen than I've ever been, but I maybe I I thought I thought it was a good interview. What I like about spiky exchanges, I don't think you were grumpy. I think you you were quite challenging and I think he got irritated because he thought you were being the classic cynical Brit about American power. And and it's true what you say, if you remember already in the interview, people should listen to this. He did actually say in answer to one of the early questions, America is not nearly as powerful as it used to be. He said that when you made that point.

• 9:30Alastair Campbell?

  He was like, how dare you say America's losing its power. Anyway, I thought you both had loose holes perfectly fine. Either you or him, I wouldn't get worried about it. But are you are you getting grumpier back in Britain? That's a good question.

• 9:40Rory Stewart?

  I think it's been quite a relief getting back to States. I I found coming back to Britain actually from Jordan has been tough. I I I found it very difficult kind of getting stopped on the street and people sort of saying you need to go back into politics and the kind of weird projections about that. But that's more psychological drama than than maybe we need on question time. Right, here's a question for you, Paul Dawson. What role could you envision for Britain on the global stage that is both ambitious and realistic? Contributes to make the world safer and better, inspires widespread patriotic private in the UK and can be implemented at various scales irrespective of the next US president or political changes in European countries? Well, Alistair, that's quite a question.

• 10:21Alastair Campbell?

  Well, first of all, we've just plugged a leading interview that's already gone out. Let me plug one that will be coming out in the coming weeks, and that is with Anthony Gormley, the great British sculptor. Because I think one role that you could envision for Britain on the global stage that is ambitious and realistic does relate to this notion I have that we should put arts and culture at the centre of a bigger strategy of projecting Britain to the world. I do think we have to rebuild some of the relationships that we've damaged. I too also think that we have to think more seriously about our role as a defence power. I think we talk the talk on it at the moment without delivering it. And I think we could rebuild our reputation in the world of aid and development as well.

• 11:05Alastair Campbell?

  But I think a combination of those things, and to be absolutely frank, getting back to some clear, sensible, grown up leadership would be good.

• 11:11Rory Stewart?

  Very good. I mean, it is, it's a brilliant question. I love the way that Paul Dawson, whoever Paul Dawson is, has articulated that ambitious, realistic, making the world safe and better, but also inspires widespread patriotic pride, implemented at various scales, irrespective of the next US president or political changes in European countries. I mean, my, my rule of thumb on this is to think about Britain as a country like France or Germany. So a big power, but not a superpower. And I think we should be focusing internationally on places like Africa, because I think we can have much more positive influence there. I think our development budget can make much more difference. We have strong historical

• 11:53Rory Stewart?

  ties and Africa really matters. As I keep saying, you know, one in 10 children born in the world will be born in Nigeria by 2050. And I think that one of the mistakes Britain has made is to fantasize that it can be a major player in India or China. It can't really. But I was, I was looking at what the British Embassy has been doing in Kenya recently, and it's really remarkable. I think, you know, along with other people, and a lot of it is the Kenyan government, they have played a big part in bringing green investment into the country, supporting the stock exchange, getting tech investment in, in a way that I don't think would be possible in many other parts of the world.

• 12:30Alastair Campbell?

  We've got a lot of questions this week about the, talking, my thing about the arts of from, one from Sarah G. What are your views on the cuts to culture budgets by local authorities, Suffolk, Knox, Birmingham, et cetera? How, how can we best argue for reinstatement? Rather more provocatively, Lisa Olson, do you think the Birmingham City Council, in totally decimating, defunding all of the arts organizations and most of the libraries, will reap any benefits from having a city totally devoid of cultural offerings? The short answer to that is of course, no. I saw Andy Street.

• 13:01Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 13:01Alastair Campbell?

  The West Midlands Metro Mayor. Had a piece in one of the papers at the weekend where essentially blaming the city council. If you remember Rory, when we interviewed him with Andy Burnham, that was the day that this this crisis was coming to to a head. They've now had to make these terrible cuts. It has been related to past spending decisions, but I think it is a worrying signal that people think that arts and culture are the easy first place to go. And I know these places are easy for cuts, but they they feel they can get away with it more. And I think that is relating to to Sarah's question. That is because we don't, and this is why Anthony Gorman, who was so wonderful when we're talking to him, you know, it's

• 13:43Alastair Campbell?

  not enough to say the arts can be a source of funding, a source of tax revenue and so forth. It's actually about what benefit we can bring to ourselves and to our communities by understanding the broader importance of the arts per se. So I I do see this as a very, very, very short sighted approach.

• 14:02Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. And of course, it's it's challenging, isn't it? Because the city council would say that they've been starved of money by the central government, but they are a Labour Labour council. So I guess it's, yeah. Now, here's a question that's come in from Nicole. Should we be worried about Sir Paul Marshall, who co-ends GB News, potentially purchasing The Telegraph and Spectator?

• 14:22Alastair Campbell?

  Is he, sir? Has he got an eye hood?

• 14:24Rory Stewart?

  I didn't know he got a night hood. Anyway, Nicole thinks he's got.

• 14:27Alastair Campbell?

  I think Nicole may be maybe giving him a an honour. Oh, my God, Sir Paul Roderick Lucas Marshall.

• 14:35Rory Stewart?

  There we are.

• 14:35Alastair Campbell?

  According to the Sunday Times Rich List, he's worth 630 million pounds. Well, I think he's a very, very dangerous person.

• 14:42Rory Stewart?

  He's very weird because he was a big Lib Dem donor, gave them 200,000 pounds, stood unsuccessfully to be a Lib Dem MP. So it's a bit like the Liz Truss journey, and then became a big Brexit supporter. If anybody goes to central London and walks from Sloane Square up Sloane Street, you can see his office on the left hand side because it's got this enormous wooden elephant, I mean, larger than a real elephant, on the ground floor, poking forward onto the street.

• 15:08Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he has had a bizarre journey because there are many, many reasons why I wish Charles Kennedy was still alive. But one would be to find out what has happened to this guy since he was a because he worked as a researcher for Charles back in the eighties. He stood for Parliament as a Lib Dem.

• 15:23Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 15:24Alastair Campbell?

  He co-edited the the the famous Orange Book, which was the sort of Nick Clegg, Ed Davey, David Law's approach to liberal

• 15:33Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 15:33Alastair Campbell?

  democracy, gave money, as you say, and then started giving money to, oh, he's at the centre of all these stories, Michael Gove.

• 15:42Rory Stewart?

  That's how I first came across him. So when I was running for the party leadership against Boris Johnson, against Michael Gove, I was invited by Paul Marshall to dinner at this office with this huge elephant. So Marshall is, as you say, he's this interesting history. He is also an evangelical Christian. He supports a church called Holy Trinity Brompton. And I described actually in my book what this dinner was like, because it turned out to be a kind of Michael Gove endorsement dinner. And it was an odd combination of very conservative views, sort of pro Brexit stuff, but also very unconservative views. So very kind of Lib Dem. I think they were basically sceptical about the monarchy, were all about taking

• 16:23Rory Stewart?

  land away from the dukes, kept asking, you know, why is the British Army less good than the Israeli Army? Why is British agriculture less good than Israeli agriculture? And it was a Michael Gove fan club, was Paul Marshall at the centre of it. But he also seems to like Jordan Peterson, who's this, yeah, kind of right wing shock jock Canadian professor. And the things that he's been retweeting, I'm just just to read a little bit of them. Sadiq Khan is taking the piss, talking about diversity. There's no diversity in a Muslim ghetto or in a Muslim society. The Muslim bloc vote that keeps him in power will vote Labour until they can vote

• 17:02Rory Stewart?

  Muslim. So he's clearly become very, very much part of the weird kind of idea that Islam is jihadi and it's got to be taken off. He liked one that said, if we want European civilisation to survive, we need not just close the borders but start mass expulsions immediately. We don't stand a chance unless we start that process very soon. So that's quite a thing to like a tweet that says, that's in January, this is four weeks ago.

• 17:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, when I pointed out some of this stuff on social media and Andy Wigmore, who is Aaron Banks's right hand man and one of the sort of self style bad boys of Brexit, he said, well, I like some of your tweets. That doesn't make me a sort of raving lefty.

• 17:44Rory Stewart?

  What of your tweets does he like? Because my guess is that he's liking tweets of yours that he agrees with. He's not liking tweets of yours he disagrees with.

• 17:50Alastair Campbell?

  Exactly. So let's just, if we think about the Lee Anderson thing recently, it was, it arose because he was speaking on GB News, paid for, out of the money from GB News, in which this guy invests millions of pounds. And it's perfectly clear, he is investing this money in GB News. He's losing a lot of money, clearly doesn't care, because he's giving them a platform for the views that he wants to push. Now, that is why, I guess, there is a little bit of a worry over this guy further extending himself into the right wing ecosystem by becoming the owner of the Daily Telegraph. So he's clearly one of those guys who's gone down the political route as a Lib Dem, failed, didn't get elected

• 18:34Alastair Campbell?

  in the places that he tried to, and has now decided there's a better way to power, where you don't have to stand for Parliament or any of that stuff. You get into this right wing media ecosystem and you become a big player within it. And here you and I, here we are, we're talking about it. He's probably very happy about that.

• 18:48Rory Stewart?

  The Twitter sphere is interesting too. I retweeted Scaramucci, who, if people haven't listened to, they've got to listen to, on leading, but retweeted him talking about the fact that nobody who's been in Trump's cabinet's endorsed Trump. Nobody's worked with him closely endorsed Trump. And the replies I got, negative replies, took me into this world very clearly. So if I go through the people that were attacking me. The same people who are attacking me for attacking Trump are people saying a US coup should not be out of the question in Britain, people who are reposting lighting their cigarettes with a leaf of the Quran, reposting a simple question, do you want Britain to be Muslim or Christian, and posting images of paedophile Pakistani paediatricians, or posting images

• 19:32Rory Stewart?

  whenever young black men are committing a crime, implicitly implying that all the crime is driven by black people. And it's really, I mean, you get a sense, and I'm trying to work out which of these are bots, which of these are fake accounts, but there's a whole universe of stuff that's very, very uniform.

• 19:50Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but that is why we shouldn't treat this stuff lightly. And I do, I mean, what is Ofcom doing? How can you have in an election year, TV station that it calls itself GB News, and which Ofcom says is not a news channel, and therefore not subject to the same rules as the other TV channels, which has now a succession of very right-wing voices, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Lee Anderson, Boris Johnson, all these sort of people, the MPs amongst whom you'd think would have enough to do as MPs. But this guy is clearly decided, he's a very, very wealthy guy, he made his money through hedge funds, he founded something called Marshall Waste, which is one of Europe's biggest hedge fund groups, got bags of money,

• 20:33Alastair Campbell?

  and he's using it to allow himself to have views represented, which, fair enough, you're entitled to believe in those views, but let's not pretend that they are anything other than pretty extreme. The other worry I have about this guy is that, I don't know if he still is, but he certainly was the chairman of Arc Schools, which is one of the big providers of academies. So, you know, I think the thing that we should have learnt about the history of British media is that this capacity to be both player and spectator, but only be judged by the rules as though you were a spectator rather than a player, I think that has to change. Rupert Murdoch, to my mind, and you know, we were as responsible as this

• 21:14Alastair Campbell?

  for anybody, but was allowed to amass far too much power as an unaccountable individual within our political system. And Marshall is trying to do the same right now.

• 21:25Rory Stewart?

  Very good.

• 21:26Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, Rory, loads more questions, quick break.

• 21:30Speaker 02

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• 22:06Rory Stewart?

  Question from Richard James. I have to admit, but I still get confused between a customs union and the single market. Would it be possible to explain this? So, quick explanation. Customs Union is what Turkey is in, and it's a free trade agreement with the European Union, so there are not tariffs and quotas if you send goods between Turkey and Europe. And the disadvantage of a customs union is that it means that you're tied into all of Europe's free trade deals around the world. Single market is what Norway's in, so these are ways of being close to Europe without being in Europe. And that means that you accept the four freedoms, including free movement of people.

• 22:43Alastair Campbell?

  Correct. Very good explainer. Now, we discussed this one briefly in the context of the new Polish Foreign Minister's speech in the UN. Steffi Laurenti, I mentioned this question, but I think it's worth going into more detail. Do you think we need a new way of doing diplomacy? I don't know what happens behind closed doors, but it all sounds too robotic. Although it should remain respectful, it would perhaps be more effective to see world leaders speak their minds, even expressing frustration if they have to. And it's true this, isn't it, that when you see world leaders together, there's always an instinct to sort of want to focus on all the niceness and the togetherness. And on the one hand, you kind of that's fine, and you like that. But sometimes you do get a feeling you're not getting the

• 23:24Alastair Campbell?

  the full story. I used to have this recurring dream, because Tony Blair was absolutely brilliant at these sort of, you know, doing doorsteps, little stand-up press conferences with other leaders. And it always start by saying something very, very nice about the other person. And I used to have this dream about where Tony was doing one alongside Osama bin Laden. And I was dreading that Tony was going to say something nice about Osama Bin Laden. He did. And he started saying, you know, whatever people think about Osama, he's got this and he's got that and he likes his children and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think there is something about diplomacy that is just sometimes a bit too diplomatic.

• 24:00Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's a really difficult one because it's one that Keir Starmer is going to find himself in if if Trump becomes the president of the United States, which is how on earth do you sound normal, say the things that everybody knows that you believe while also keeping your diplomatic relations alive? And one of the other things that is striking is where do we drop diplomatic relations? Where don't we? You know, we've kept diplomatic relations with Russia regardless of what they do, but we've suspended diplomatic relations with the Taliban.

• 24:27Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Rory Stewart?

  And that's presumably about power.

• 24:30Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely.

• 24:31Rory Stewart?

  I think it's a lot of weird hypocrisy in this. Robert Hill, just been to see the excellent Hamilton in the West End in 250 years' time, 2275. Which early 21st century politician's story would make the best musical and be playing to 23rd century audiences? Perhaps a musical comic tragedy?

• 24:49Alastair Campbell?

  Well, heaven knows. I mean, there's lots of people. I every time I see a poster for Hamilton, have you been to see Hamilton, by the way? It is brilliant.

• 24:57Rory Stewart?

  I have, I have.

• 24:58Alastair Campbell?

  I loved it. But every time I see a poster, I do think about that question of, you know, because we talk so much about legacy and the legacy of politicians and this play has become part of his legacy. I mean, I suspect that for a lot of British people, his is a name that is amongst the least known of the great, you know, American founders. And now it's one of the best known because of this, because of this musical. What would make, what would make a good musical out of modern politics? I think Liz Truss, actually. I think what will happen with Liz Truss is that she'll be completely forgotten and then the historians in a couple of hundred years will think, you know, well, this is a very tight with British politics when they had this woman who came along and she was Prime Minister like for, was it three days or two weeks?

• 25:41Alastair Campbell?

  I can't remember what it was, but you should look it up on whatever Wikipedia it comes. And people say that would be an amazing musical. We could set it like we could have a different song for every day that she was Prime Minister. So, yeah, I'm going for Liz Truss.

• 25:53Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, Liz Truss. She would get a six parter on the rest is history, which will obviously still be going in twenty two seventy five.

• 26:02Alastair Campbell?

  But who'll be presenting it? They can't both be. Are they immortal?

• 26:05Rory Stewart?

  It'll still be them. They're not they're not they're not hanging up their boots in the next two hundred and fifty years. It'll still be them.

• 26:11Alastair Campbell?

  Talking of Liz Truss, Charlotte Hendall wants to know what cost implication is there to the taxpayer of having Liz Truss speak nonsense in the United States? Am I paying for any part of this trip? Well, yes, you are in part because ludicrously, Liz Truss gets the same former prime minister allowance as John Major, Tony Blair, et cetera. This is the the costs that are deemed to be reasonable assumptions about work that you will carry on doing because you were once a prime minister. And of course, she also has the same level of of security as some of the the former prime ministers. So up to a point, yes, but I suspect somebody else was picking up the tab for her on this.

• 26:53Rory Stewart?

  And I'll I'll defend it a little bit because I think hard cases make bad law. And the principle that prime ministers get some security support and some financial support makes sense. And there are very few prime ministers who last forty four days, but you wouldn't want to be changing the whole system just because of this lettuce phenomenon.

• 27:11Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. Do you think every letter should get special branch protection or not? Probably not.

• 27:17Rory Stewart?

  I think they could do with it, particularly in my house, a lot of lettuce eating going on. Is it true that Lisa, is it true that MPs don't have any contracted hours or set leave allowance? If so, I imagine this leads to a lot of overworking and some notable examples of underworking. And well, look, I mean, Lisa's put her finger on something that's just true of the whole system. Being an MP is not really a job in any normal way. There's no job description. There's no hours. You know, the even the idea of paternity and maternity leave is kind of invented and made up. I think I took. Maybe a week's paternity leave, but it wasn't really leave and it wasn't in any contracts. I just said to my constituents, I'm going to take a week off to be with my baby.

• 27:57Alastair Campbell?

  Did you feel pressure only to have that one week rather than say, right, I'm going to take a few months off?

• 28:02Rory Stewart?

  Well, absolutely. I mean, absolutely. Because, you know, there's another question of Clara Bamford saying, as a constituent, what can you do when your MP is suspended from their party, not representing your constituency in Westminster? My MPs, Christopher Blunt, we feel our voice has been silenced. How can we be heard? Sadly, we're not the only constituent in the situation. No, I think my constituents would have been completely outraged if I took six months off because they'd be saying, how are we going to be represented in Parliament? So, and I don't think it tends to lead to underwork. I think MPs have a lot of problems. I think being in Parliament contorts your personality, brings out the worst bits of your personality. But their problems are not that they don't work. I think MPs work very hard, generally work very long hours. I just think the problem is the whips, the

• 28:45Rory Stewart?

  party system, the media, the incentives, the culture of Parliament means that a lot of that work doesn't result in good results. And I don't know how you would sort of give a job description or make it a more normal job. I don't think it's really a normal job in any country. Well, one thing you could do that I strongly believe in is I think Parliament should sit much less. I think there's a lot of turning up to Parliament when there isn't much legislation, there's not much to do. And actually, a lot of this is because David Cameron didn't like the fact that MPs got long summer holidays. So he invented a very expensive two week sitting in September before party conference, which gets absolutely nothing done, but which is just about placating the idea. I think there

• 29:28Rory Stewart?

  are many countries in the world where MPs sit for much less than a year. And that means that I think they can get on with more useful stuff the rest of the time.

• 29:34Alastair Campbell?

  You may remember, Orion, in my last book, I wrote about my nephew, Jamie Nash.

• 29:39Rory Stewart?

  Yes, yes, yes. Tell us about your nephew.

• 29:41Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he's just been selected as a Labour candidate in Rushcliffe. And the reason I'm

• 29:45Rory Stewart?

  A seat that he's likely to win?

• 29:46Alastair Campbell?

  Well, it's winnable. It's Ken Classell's seat, but it's like, at the moment, put it this way, if Labour are going to get a majority, he's going to have to win. Um, the reason I mention it is one, um, he, because I said in the book that I, he was the one that told me I had a way too romantic view of the Labour Party because my experience was always at or close to the top of it. Whereas he said, you know, he said, assure me, down in the grassroots is not much fun. Um, but also because he's, um, he'll be starting a family quite soon. And, and I think that that's a, that is a big factor for anybody in any walk of life. We know that. But I do think that you do have extra pressures when you're in Parliament. And as you said, well, as you say in your book, and as you've said many, many times on here, the whole thing of, you know, where do you live? How do you,

• 30:30Alastair Campbell?

  how much time do you spend here? How much time do you spend there? Trying to keep on top of everything. And I'm assuming in this next Parliament, I mean, there are going to be a lot of new faces, aren't there? So hopefully that will produce an energy and a drive for some of the changes you want to see.

• 30:44Rory Stewart?

  But, but let's try to make a desperate last ditch attempt with, um, whatever it is, eight months ago to the election, to see if we can get one of these parties at least to sign up to a proper three, four week.

• 30:58Alastair Campbell?

  Induction.

• 30:59Rory Stewart?

  Training. Yeah. Induction training for MPs turning up. And, and part of that being your stuff about Nolan principles and accountability and leadership and making sure that people have a sense of the moral ideas, some ideas of the expectation. I mean, and I'd love to see it done cross party. I'd love to see all the MPs from all parties hearing from the best of the cross party MPs who actually represent a more honourable tradition of Parliament. Get them when they're fresh and idealistic and, and set some standards and maybe get them to sign up. Why not sign up to a voluntary code? I mean, I wanted to do this when I came in after the expenses scandal. Why didn't we all sign up to a voluntary code for all of us on what we were going to do on our expenses?

• 31:40Alastair Campbell?

  And I bet you had a few people saying, hmm, these young whippersnappers coming here. We've never done that before. Why are we doing that now? Yeah. Okay, a couple of questions here on Shamima Begum. Anya McCarthy, what do you think of Shamima Begum remaining stateless following the lost appeal against the Home Office? What does this mean? Is it common? And Cameron Ratcliffe, we've now had several years of tabloid government and among the victims is Shamima Begum. Do you think an incoming Labour government should, will be more compassionate in her case? I do feel very uneasy about this. I think that, you know, the idea that regardless, I think you talked earlier about, you know, bad cases making bad law. This is a young person, whatever reason, gets caught up in some pretty terrible stuff,

• 32:22Alastair Campbell?

  admits to it, but now is deemed to be stateless and cannot come back to the country where she was a citizen. I have problems with this.

• 32:31Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, it's part of a much bigger problem, isn't it? The reason why the Home Office, I think under Satya Javid, and we can talk about this when we get him on the leading, initially made her stateless is that there were lots of people who'd been involved with ISIS, of which she was one, in these camps on the Syrian Iraqi border, who they never had enough evidence to prosecute. So they'd said, they'd gone out, the government had gone out and said, anyone who goes out to join ISIS, you know, we're going to lock them up. Obviously Shamima Begum went out to join ISIS and then it became clear to the government that she could come back to Britain and nothing would happen to her because there wouldn't be enough evidence that she had prosecuted her, despite the fact she'd been connected with this incredibly extreme jihadist group. So the solution that they came up with was to make her stateless.

• 33:15Rory Stewart?

  And it's a little bit reminiscent of the contortions around Rwanda and all the strange legal fictions that they're doing around Rwanda. It's about governments finding that some of the things they want to do are difficult to do within the legal system and then coming up with stranger and stranger solutions. So I think what's happening is a minister is sitting at a table, and it's probably in this case Satya Javid, saying, well, surely I can't have her come back to the UK when we said anyone who goes off to join ISIS is going to be prosecuted. If I can't prosecute her, can we just stop her coming back? And eventually somebody's saying, well, I suppose you could take her passport away, which is what's now been challenged.

• 33:54Alastair Campbell?

  I think a lot of people think that this case was, is it worried about the merits of the case? As I understand it, it was about the system that was applied. But I just think it's, I think it's pretty hardcore to say that you are now deemed to be stateless because the same principles should apply. That if you don't have the evidence that says that they are guilty of crime A, crime B, crime C, then why should there be such a severe punishment?

• 34:22Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. And of course, that then leads back to why did the government say that it was going to prosecute anyone who went to join ISIS when in fact it didn't have the legal power to do that? Nick Simpson, last week Labour said they would use citizens assemblies, then rode back on it within hours. This seems to happen a lot. Is this part of a strategy, floating ideas to see the public reaction? Or is it a lack of messages been? Or maybe indecision on policy? Heartbreaking for me. Remember I said last week, I think, that that was the thing that was going to get me to vote for Labour?

• 34:51Alastair Campbell?

  Where was the rowing back? When I, I was, I, this was the first I was aware of the rowing back. I know I should read the papers more closely, but have they, have they said it's not happening?

• 35:01Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, a Labour spokesman came out and said basically that this was an idea of Sue Gray's, that it wasn't endorsed by the Labour Party and they wouldn't be going ahead with it. Which seemed to be very sad because it was a very exciting moment.

• 35:13Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. Oh, well, we, we, listen, we should keep banging away about it because we both think it's a good thing. I suspect in that case, it was a lack of, well, it can't have been lack of message discipline because as I understand it, this came from

• 35:26Rory Stewart?

  From the book.

• 35:27Alastair Campbell?

  From the Tom Borman's book where he spoke to Sue Gray and she mentioned it. So, oh, I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, well, that's bad. Bad, if true. Pippa Lucy, Alastair, will you please ask Rory to come to Shay's pub with the British and Irish Student Caucus after he gives his talk at Harvard next week?

• 35:45Rory Stewart?

  Well, I, I want to be very clear on this, Alastair.

• 35:51Alastair Campbell?

  What do you want to be clear about?

• 35:54Rory Stewart?

  I just want to be very clear. I want to be very clear.

• 35:56Alastair Campbell?

  You're talking about some nice British and Irish students. They're out there. They're probably going to go to your talk. You just have to pop in for five minutes, do a couple of selfies, say thank you when they say how much they love the podcast and ask you what Alastair Campbell's really like, which is all they want to care. Ask you that, by the way.

• 36:10Rory Stewart?

  On those terms, I'm up for it. Absolutely.

• 36:13Alastair Campbell?

  All right. Pippa, he says yes to five minutes. And David Gork, I'm sorry that I haven't been able to get the same commitment for an event in Chorley Wood for the excellent local bookshop.

• 36:24Rory Stewart?

  Alissa, the final question, question time this week, is not a question for us. It's a question that we, bizarrely, are supposed to be asking on someone else's behalf. And the clue to what that question is, is that today is the 29th of February. It's a leap year, just comes around once every four years. And the question is?

• 36:43Alastair Campbell?

  The question is, for Mr. Kelly Butler, from Lucinda Borg. And Kelly, Lucinda would like me to say to you, I love you very much. Well, she loves you very much. And the question is, will you marry me? There you go.

• 37:01Rory Stewart?

  Oh, well, I hope he says yes.

• 37:02Alastair Campbell?

  So we know, we know, the rest is Cupid. Anyway, Lucinda, it's all on you now. We've done our bit. Over to you.

• 37:10Rory Stewart?

  Alissa, thank you. You're, you're in very good form today. You seem to be very cheery and zen-like. I don't know what's going on in your life. Yeah, no, I thought, I think you've been...

• 37:16Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's weird, because I'm really not.

• 37:18Rory Stewart?

  Oh, well, maybe when you're, maybe you're just immensely self-controlled. I now feel I'm becoming the grumpy one and you're becoming the...

• 37:23Alastair Campbell?

  Maybe I should be an actor.

• 37:25Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, you should be an actor, yeah, exactly. Well, since our revelation, which is going to be followed up soon, that we've discovered your twin. But we're not going to reveal who your twin is, but it will be revealed soon on the evening.

• 37:33Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah, good. See you soon.

• 37:36Rory Stewart?

  See you soon, bye-bye.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  There we are, getting a statement from number 10 on that flight with 350 passengers on board.

• 37:52Speaker 04

  The great game, strategic struggle between Britain and Russia.

• 37:59Speaker 05

  We assess, Prime Minister, with high confidence, it was Russian.

• 38:05Speaker 06

  Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.

• 38:07Speaker 07

  They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

• 38:11Speaker 04

  Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. Got to ask yourself, do you want to play or not?

• 38:17Speaker 08

  You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing!

• 38:24Speaker 08

  We would need to understand the policy context.

• 38:26Speaker 04

  All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today. Disseminated into an operation order, or FRAGO.

• 38:35Speaker 06

  A FRAGO that says to kill the President of Russia?

• 38:39Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 38:41Speaker 06

  New from Goalhanger. Who is going to be able to pull this off?

• 38:46Speaker 09

  You're my soldier, are you Sergeant Tom MacDuff, Duffy?

• 38:50Speaker 06

  An audio drama journey like no other.

• 38:52Speaker 09

  Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons.

• 38:56Speaker 06

  Devized as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller.

• 38:59Speaker 09

  We have two types friendly KIA.

• 39:01Speaker 06

  Where Britain plays its strongest hand. He's the best. Against its strongest foe. Don't do it Duffy! Bear Hunt. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.