The Winners and Losers of the Summer Movies Came Roaring Back. Plus: ‘Hope,’ ‘The Uprising,’ and 10 More We Missed.

On today’s action-packed show, Sean and Amanda briefly react to the first trailer released for M. Night Shyamalan's new film, ‘Remain,’ and the news that Paul Feig is attached to remake ‘The Italian Job.’ Then, they look back at the historic summer at the box office and share some of their biggest winners and losers, as well as recap the final results of their very serious summer movie preview game. Later, they cover a handful of recent releases they haven’t discussed on the show yet, including ‘The Uprising,’ ‘Hope,’ and more. Finally, in collaboration with his curation for the Criterion Channel, Sean is joined by friend of the show BenDavid Grabinski to celebrate legendary filmmaker Abel Ferrera. They explore his complicated legacy, dive deep into his filmography by highlighting their personal favorites, and identify what makes Ferrera such a special director. (0:00) Intro (2:01) ‘Remain’ trailer reaction (3:46) Paul Feig attached to remake ‘The Italian Job’ (7:33) An incredible summer for the box office (and us) (10:02) The biggest winners of the summer (41:18) The biggest losers of the summer (55:13) The Summer Movie Preview Game results (1:00:38) Movies we missed (1:40:28) BenDavid Grabinski joins the show to discuss Abel Ferrera Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: BenDavid Grabinski Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan®. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there®. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fantasy.

• 0:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 0:17Sean Fennessey?

  And this is the Big Pictureate Conversation Show about the end of summer. Amanda is back in America. And today on the show, we're talking about some late summer movies we missed, the winners and losers of an extraordinary season at the box office and the ghastly results of our summer movie preview game. And after that, something cool. Earlier this month, a new program on the Criterion Channel launched, collecting many of the films from filmmaker Abel Ferrera, the man who made King of New York, Bad Lieutenant, Miss 45, and many other classics. I helped to curate that package. There's an intro on the channel that features me talking about Ferrera's body of work and why it matters. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by filmmaker and friend of the show, Ben David Grabinski, for a deeper dive into Ferrera's work and what makes it so special. So definitely stick around for that. But first, some movie news with Amanda in studio right after this.

• 1:04Sean Fennessey?

  This episode is presented by State Farm. You know the feeling, long day, good meal. You finally sit down and now you're just staring at your screen. Slasher, rom com, period drama, psychological thriller? But some decisions don't have to be that hard. State Farm is here to help. Like when you choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Bundling, just another way to save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  I'm pro Football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of, major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 2:01Speaker 03

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 2:13Speaker 04

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 3:07Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, Dancing Queen. How you doing? You're back.

• 3:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm back.

• 3:12Sean Fennessey?

  You feel good?

• 3:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I'm glad to be back. I mean, I just spent a lot of time telling you and Jack and Lucas just how I absolutely, was it peak powers?

• 3:22Amanda Dobbins?

  In Venice and then on the way, on the way home from Venice. But I got a good night's sleep. I'm excited to see everybody. I'm locked in for fall.

• 3:28Sean Fennessey?

  Huge fall ahead. So much to discuss. First thing we're going to discuss has nothing to do with the fall.

• 3:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 3:33Sean Fennessey?

  It has to do with Valentine's Day. Because the Valentine's Day film of 2027 will be Remain, a new supernatural romance thriller from M. Night Shyamalan, co-penned by Nicholas Sparks.

• 3:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I love it.

• 3:46Sean Fennessey?

  The teaser premiered this week. You say what?

• 3:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Count me in. I mean, here's my only thing, and I don't know how this is going to go. And there is, you, I don't know how much of a balance there will be between M. Night Shyamalan and Nicholas Sparks, but I don't want a happy ending.

• 4:02Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 4:02Amanda Dobbins?

  You know?

• 4:02Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 4:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't want this. I don't, I don't.

• 4:05Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not sure if that's in the offing.

• 4:07Amanda Dobbins?

  You think there's going to be a happy ending?

• 4:08Sean Fennessey?

  I, I'm concerned.

• 4:10Amanda Dobbins?

  But what if it's like?

• 4:10Sean Fennessey?

  We will find a greater peace in love.

• 4:12Amanda Dobbins?

  What if it's like a notebook happy ending?

• 4:14Sean Fennessey?

  What is the ending of that movie? I don't remember.

• 4:15Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't remember?

• 4:16Sean Fennessey?

  I've only seen it once.

• 4:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, so he keeps reading her the dementia notebook, and then she wakes up for 20 seconds and he's like, oh, we're like healthy and the kids are healthy and I still love you. And then they die together in their bed.

• 4:29Sean Fennessey?

  Have you been keeping a dementia notebook for me?

• 4:32Amanda Dobbins?

  It's called this podcast.

• 4:33Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's a good thing there's a public record of all of my thoughts because they're, they're going every day. Jake Gyllenhaal, Phoebe Dinever are the stars of this movie. And it did get punted out of 2026 to 2027, which I found to be a little worrying.

• 4:46Amanda Dobbins?

  So did Phoebe Dinever's other movie.

• 4:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, no, you're thinking of.

• 4:49Amanda Dobbins?

  A Place in Hell.

• 4:50Sean Fennessey?

  No, that's not Phoebe Dinever. That's Daisy Edgar Jones and Michelle Williams.

• 4:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, it is? Oh, I'm sorry to the, to the very beautiful young British women.

• 4:58Sean Fennessey?

  It makes it up your white ladies.

• 4:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I apologize. You're both very pretty.

• 5:02Sean Fennessey?

  So the movie, you know what? The trailer reminded me a bit of What Lies Beneath. Kind of a ghostly romance.

• 5:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Great.

• 5:09Sean Fennessey?

  With maybe some.

• 5:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Some shenanigans?

• 5:13Sean Fennessey?

  Some violent ends, perhaps? We shall see. I'm looking forward to that. There was some news also this week that Paul Feig is attached to a new version of The Italian Job. Can I tell you a secret?

• 5:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Sean Fennessey?

  I've never seen the remake of The Italian Job.

• 5:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay. Well, I was about to say Mini Coopers to you, but now I've just spoiled a major part of that. That's, that's in The New Italian Job, right? Anyone?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  I've also not seen it.

• 5:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow, okay, so no salt and.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Can I tell you, I really was going to try and watch that on vacation when I heard you shout me out and I missed it.

• 5:39Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  I'm gonna make it happen, I promise.

• 5:41Amanda Dobbins?

  We're results oriented here, okay? Let me know when you've actually watched it.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  It's coming, it's gonna happen.

• 5:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, it's not, it's not one of my heist movies, but I do like all heist movies.

• 5:50Sean Fennessey?

  Sure, recently featured on the Rewatchables, obviously a great cast in that, Mark Wahlberg, Charlize Theron, Edward Norton, so on and so forth.

• 5:58Sean Fennessey?

  This new one, we need another one of these? Doesn't this kind of fall?

• 6:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Why? Listen, they can make as many horror movies and remakes of other things and you're, you don't complain. So just let me have a heist movie, okay?

• 6:11Sean Fennessey?

  So you want it.

• 6:12Amanda Dobbins?

  It can be good, it can be bad. Yeah, I like, I don't, let's, let's make movies that I'm interested in.

• 6:17Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so the original Italian Job was released in the 1960s, starring Michael Caine. Also, a artifact of the 1960s, the television series Get Smart.

• 6:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 6:26Sean Fennessey?

  And there was a movie remake.

• 6:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Correct.

• 6:29Sean Fennessey?

  Of Get Smart that appeared in the 2000s, much like there was a remake of The Italian Job that appeared in the 2000s. The Get Smart remake starred Steve Carell and Anne Hathaway.

• 6:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. And then Date Night was Steve Carell and Tina Fey?

• 6:42Sean Fennessey?

  Correct, and Mark Wahlberg.

• 6:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm, I see.

• 6:45Sean Fennessey?

  It's all crashing together. It's just announced that Warner Brothers is developing a reboot of Get Smart starring John Mulaney. Now, John Mulaney has not starred in very many movies. In fact, I would argue his most prominent role is as Spider Pig in the Spider-Verse films.

• 7:00Amanda Dobbins?

  He's good in The Bear. Was he in the last season of The Bear?

• 7:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 7:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I forgot to download it.

• 7:08Sean Fennessey?

  Anyhow, Get Smart, you know, Get Smart was created by Mel Brooks and Buck Henry, two of the greatest comic minds of the 20th century. And the show was very popular. I think it might have actually been spun off from a film originally. Don Adams starred in the TV show version of it. And this feels like, like a news announcement from 1997? What, what, why? We need, The Italian Job and Get Smart are getting reboots? Doesn't this feel kind of counter to a lot of the conversation we're about to have about what happened this summer?

• 7:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, and that anything franchise or old person seeming or even old person adjacent is DOA.

• 7:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Amanda Dobbins?

  And it's just about a bunch of new young people from the internet? I mean, I agree.

• 7:49Sean Fennessey?

  Kind of weird, right?

• 7:50Amanda Dobbins?

  It's very, very strange. I guess these are, this is cheap IP that's, and probably the rights are expiring. So they're like, is this anything? Is this anything? And every once in a while, is this anything turns into something?

• 8:03Sean Fennessey?

  I guess so. Jack, is Get Smart anything to you?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  It actually is. It's not like huge, but I vividly remember watching it as a child and enjoying it.

• 8:11Sean Fennessey?

  The TV show or the film?

• 8:13Speaker 02

  The film, sorry.

• 8:13Sean Fennessey?

  The Steve Carell movie?

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Yes, that's correct.

• 8:16Sean Fennessey?

  Gosh, I remember that movie being a dud.

• 8:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I confused it in my head with Date Night until you said the words Anne Hathaway, because they were, they're all of an era when Steve Carell was the most famous beloved person in the world because of The Office.

• 8:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 8:28Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and also Forty Year Old Virgin, and then made some other movies. What's the one where he's like, he's basically Noah? Do you remember this?

• 8:37Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, that was the sequel to the Jim Carrey movie where he's a newscaster. Bruce Almighty.

• 8:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 8:45Sean Fennessey?

  That was Evan Almighty, I think, was the name of that one.

• 8:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Sean Fennessey?

  I thought you were gonna ask me about the film Dan in Real Life, which was another Steve Carell vehicle from that time.

• 8:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 8:54Sean Fennessey?

  Lot of, lot of, lot of Steve Carell, I mean, obviously Little Miss Sunshine, lot of Steve Carell movies that no longer exist, I would say. Get Smart reboot might be one of them. Okay. Would you like to talk about this summer? I mean, you're welcome to share any details from your personal life about this summer if you'd like to, but

• 9:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 9:10Sean Fennessey?

  I, I do wanna mark time.

• 9:12Amanda Dobbins?

  But you're trying to say, but I don't, but I Sean fantasy don't wanna hear about them?

• 9:16Sean Fennessey?

  I've just heard about them a lot already, you know, like you're on the record, like we're texting.

• 9:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Sort of, but there was a month there.

• 9:23Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 9:23Amanda Dobbins?

  We basically have not spent a lot of time together.

• 9:25Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 9:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Since, since our birthdays, since the birthday party.

• 9:28Sean Fennessey?

  That's true. We have not spent a lot of time together. Are you ready for basically six straight months of hanging out with me? Cause that's what this is gonna be.

• 9:35Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true. When you throw in Christmas. Yeah. Yes, I am.

• 9:38Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, great. I am too. Um, feel free to intersperse any personal anecdote you need as we go through the events of the last three months.

• 9:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't feel like you actually mean that, but I, as everyone knows.

• 9:49Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda.

• 9:50Amanda Dobbins?

  We, I can't help myself, so continue.

• 9:52Sean Fennessey?

  If you would continue to.

• 9:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, would you like to share anything?

• 9:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yourself.

• 9:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Do we know enough about your summer?

• 9:58Sean Fennessey?

  What's to share?

• 9:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Next one? You're still, you're still doing the.

• 10:01Sean Fennessey?

  Riding high.

• 10:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Met status, up, down?

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Fun team.

• 10:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, but.

• 10:06Sean Fennessey?

  Horrible outcome, but great vibes last month.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 10:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so no, no playoffs?

• 10:11Sean Fennessey?

  Definitely no playoffs.

• 10:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 10:13Sean Fennessey?

  But weirdly feeling optimistic about next year already.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Me as well.

• 10:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Do I have to take on, do I have to witness any of your Jets, Agita, the next four to five months?

• 10:22Sean Fennessey?

  That's an interesting question. I, I appreciate you asking. I don't really know what I'm doing this year yet, in that respect.

• 10:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Great, okay.

• 10:27Sean Fennessey?

  Um, my formal prediction is seven and 10. They have way too much talent to be the worst team in the league. I don't believe in their coach. Uh, I don't feel as emotionally invested in this year because we all know what the purpose of this year is, which is to find out whether they're gonna keep the coach or not, and then to choose a quarterback in the draft next year. So that's the whole, that's it. Hopefully the young kids, the young players are good.

• 10:50Sean Fennessey?

  So it's an odd thing for 15 straight years of no playoffs, and then to just know we're not making the playoffs again.

• 10:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 10:57Sean Fennessey?

  So the only, I mean, the only way to look at it is like there's upside. Like maybe, maybe they might surprise people. If they're abominable, it's kinda no big deal. So weirdly stress-free season.

• 11:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think you'll stick to that?

• 11:09Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, I'll be individually mad during games.

• 11:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, great.

• 11:12Sean Fennessey?

  But I, I don't think I'll be as rageful as I usually am. Also, the Knicks thing, it's kinda even some stuff out, you know?

• 11:19Amanda Dobbins?

  That's beautiful.

• 11:19Sean Fennessey?

  It has really even some stuff out. I'm really looking forward to the Knicks season. It's really, it's quite a time.

• 11:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Did they keep everybody?

• 11:25Sean Fennessey?

  They lost Mitchell Robinson to the Boston Celtics, which wasn't ideal.

• 11:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 11:28Sean Fennessey?

  Otherwise intact.

• 11:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Beautiful.

• 11:32Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, let's talk about the summer. Um, this was the highest grossing summer from a, a dollar perspective in the history of movies. Now, obviously that doesn't account for inflation. I imagine if you look at the summer grosses from 1939, probably made more money.

• 11:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 11:47Sean Fennessey?

  With regards to inflation, but $4.76 billion across this summer movie season, which surpasses the record from 2013, which was 4.756. The admissions this summer were 322 million. That's almost 50 million more people went to, or more tickets were sold this summer than last summer, which is really saying something. There were four straight $1 billion plus months at the box office. Again, very crazy. This August was the biggest August in movie history. Now that is almost entirely because of Spider-Man: Brand New Day, but nevertheless. You know, it was, this was a truly historic three months for movies. Did it, did it feel that way for you?

• 12:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes and no. I mean, the, without accounting for inflation, part of it is a, is a major part of this.

• 12:36Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 12:37Amanda Dobbins?

  And I think admissions are certainly up from last year, but I think relative to even 10 years ago.

• 12:43Sean Fennessey?

  They're down.

• 12:44Amanda Dobbins?

  What, what we are finding is that movies are back for people who are interested in movies.

• 12:52Sean Fennessey?

  Correct.

• 12:52Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and that's really fun. And I will say that anecdotally, I do feel like I was talking with, you know, friends and family, and even in Venice, I had conversations with several people who were like, hey, you know what I saw? The invite, really good. Like, it does feel like things beyond Spider-Man, you know, doing its fan service, are reaching people in a way that certainly five years ago, during the pandemic and, you know, as, as TV still kinda held its toke hold over popular culture, we didn't have. So I think movies are definitely up over TV. I don't know what TV shows are on. Emmys are this week, I don't care. Uh, and, and that feels nice.

• 13:33Amanda Dobbins?

  And it also does feel like we are continuing to develop like a new generation of fans and movie-going habits. And those are gonna be different than the movie-going habits that we had, but they're real, so that's positive.

• 13:47Sean Fennessey?

  No, I think that's smartly observed. And I, I think the, the reaching the young people thing, which just came up with respect to the rebooting of old boomer culture and trying to make it into a movie again, is really notable to me. Like, I wanna talk through what I perceive to be some of the winners and losers of this stretch of time.

• 14:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 14:04Sean Fennessey?

  Some of which are gonna be very obvious, but I think we should try to reflect on them a little bit. Spider-Man is the place to start. So Spider-Man: Brand New Day has made $2.4 billion. It's made $923 million in, in America and Canada.

• 14:16Amanda Dobbins?

  And your cut was what?

• 14:18Sean Fennessey?

  $0. You know, we, we will talk about the summer movie preview game, but in a million years, I never would've guessed this much money worldwide. This is an insane, now, there are a variety of reasons for this. I ran into somebody at Telluride over the weekend, and they were like, you know, it's really cool what's happening with movies. I saw Spider-Man. I thought it was fine. Like, I thought it was pretty good, and that was it. And that was the general reception I think I've gotten from a lot of the normal movie-going people in my life. There, obviously Spider-Man and Marvel has a stronghold of fandom. Um, so I'm still trying to account maybe for what this, what the reason is for the success of this. Now, I think we could probably pull like five or six reasons. The number one thing that jumps to mind is the fact that Spider-Man is for everyone.

• 15:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 15:00Sean Fennessey?

  You know, Toy Story 5 is for kids, The Odyssey is for adults, but Spider-Man: Brand New Day was for every single person who could see a movie. Does that?

• 15:08Amanda Dobbins?

  I completely agree.

• 15:09Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's the biggest reason why.

• 15:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, that you would get all generations, but just bringing a lot of kid audience. And there were some really soft kid titles across the summer.

• 15:20Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 15:20Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, you know, Toy Story 5, obviously being the exception, but otherwise, a lot of the other kid solo-oriented movies did not perform.

• 15:28Sean Fennessey?

  It's true.

• 15:29Amanda Dobbins?

  And this feels like one that grownups and kids, and even like really little kids. I mean, our children are probably too little, but I'm sure there were lots of five-year-olds who are so psyched about Spider-Man. And this is, I mean, Spider-Man really, two-year-olds know what that is, even if they can't see the movies. So some of it just seems like the, the widest reach possible.

• 15:50Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. Obviously, there is anticipation anytime there is gonna be a new Spider-Man movie. And then I think there's anticipation for Doomsday and what I think a lot of comic book movie fans hope is a rebirth, a revival, whatever it's going to be. I'm quite fascinated to see how this impacts Doomsday, if at all. Like, I think Doomsday will be huge.

• 16:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 16:10Sean Fennessey?

  I'll ask you straight up. Do you think it will make as much money as Brand New Day?

• 16:15Amanda Dobbins?

  No, because, well, because it's split with Dune. And so I think even just some of the kinda repeat, I go to the theater four times to see something, the IMAX screens for sure. All, you know, all of this is just that, that they're just gonna have to share some of the market, which again, I do not understand, but I, I don't make these decisions.

• 16:34Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it is an interesting test of that audience. I think it will be less, maybe just a little bit less, but I do think it will be less. I, this is an extraordinary outcome for this movie. The second one is obvious, and that's The Odyssey and Christopher Nolan. The Odyssey sits at $1.63 billion. Domestically, it's made $585 million. It's the highest grossing R-rated film of all time. It surpassed Deadpool and Wolverine, speaking of the MCU. It's Christopher Nolan's biggest movie. It overtook The Dark Knight Rises. It's the highest grossing IMAX release of all time. It earned $289 million from IMAX.

• 17:09Amanda Dobbins?

  It better. With the amount of, you know, investment and time everyone spent in making that, the IMAX camera, you know, the, the, the marketing worked.

• 17:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, and just as, as an addendum to this, um, IMAX is also, I think, one of the very big winners of the summer with a lot of question marks that we can get to after we talk about The Odyssey. So, you know, again, The Odyssey I thought would be huge, and I thought, well, if it got past Oppenheimer, that would be an amazing success. And then it made $680 million more than Oppenheimer. What does that tell you?

• 17:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Christopher Nolan is a brand. And, and to an extent, I think also IMAX is a brand. And that's, that's the other thing where, you know, Brian Kugler did this with Cine's last year, and the, the studios and the directors know that there is a growing young cinephile audience, and that part of going back to the theaters is also caring about the format. And, and that hyping that up will engage people, and so far is working. And I've had so many conversations with, you know, family members being like, so do I need to go see it in 70-millimeter IMAX? And I was like, no, you can just see it in the best place. But that message, that worked. And I think a lot of that is because Christopher Nolan has worked so hard to be the director who does this stuff

• 18:23Amanda Dobbins?

  and attach his name to it, and he's such a big deal at this point. So he's golden. Congratulations to all of them. Also, you know, fighting in movies is good, and there is an element of this movie for all of its, textbook and academic associations, that's just an adventure.

• 18:43Sean Fennessey?

  It's a war movie.

• 18:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 18:45Amanda Dobbins?

  300 made a lot of money too, not this much, but it's like, people are into this.

• 18:48Sean Fennessey?

  No, it's, it's true. They, they haven't been as into this kind of movie in a very long time though, but I do think you're right that the timing was right. It was the fusion of that, this filmmaker, this cast, this story being told in this way, the PLFs that you're describing. And that's something else to note that I think is useful, which is that regarding inflation, I think the average ticket price sale this summer was $14, and a lot of that is attributed to the fact that many of the ticket sales, an unusual proportion of the ticket sales, were from premium large-format screens, which cost more money to go see. So I think in 2019, the average ticket price was $10, because there just were not as many PLFs, and obviously inflation has gone up.

• 19:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 19:28Sean Fennessey?

  So, something really fascinating for Nolan, God, I am so interested to hear what movie he makes next. Because now, and you know, we'll be talking about him through the, the Oscar season for a long time, but just from a pure kind of dollars and cents, the absolute centerpiece of the business, the heir to Steven Spielberg as the person who commands commercial cinema stronger than anybody. And maybe honestly, is he the, is he a bigger draw than any movie star in the world right now?

• 19:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Probably. I'm trying, I mean, I'm trying to think. I mean, Leo is probably, and, but not box office wise, because one battle last year was not on the level.

• 20:08Sean Fennessey?

  I think he's the single most powerful draw in the entire, I mean, maybe you could say Spider-Man.

• 20:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I was gonna say, yeah.

• 20:14Sean Fennessey?

  Like, set characters aside, like, actual, living humans.

• 20:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:19Sean Fennessey?

  That's amazing. For a filmmaker to be that, I, I don't know if you, even though if you could make the case that Spielberg specifically had that over any key, over like Eddie Murphy or Harrison Ford in the 1980s.

• 20:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 20:30Sean Fennessey?

  Like, is this the first time in history that a director has been the biggest draw in the business? I don't know. It's a good, it's a good thought exercise.

• 20:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Sean Fennessey?

  You know, people, people can send us some thoughts.

• 20:42Amanda Dobbins?

  When is his next movie dated for?

• 20:44Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know if it is, but there's a space on the 2029 calendar on that July weekend.

• 20:51Amanda Dobbins?

  His favorite July weekend.

• 20:52Sean Fennessey?

  So I think that's probably where, I mean, he, that's essentially what he does, right? Is every three years on that July weekend, that's where he goes.

• 20:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you feel that we need to extend the clock to July 2029? Or are you still holding at June 2028?

• 21:06Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, I don't know. I'm an X-Men boy, you know? So that, that would be a fitting way to go out.

• 21:11Amanda Dobbins?

  So that's May 2028. So you don't want to hang on for Days of Thunder 2?

• 21:15Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, right, Days of Thunder 2. Geez. You want to go an entire 13 months after that?

• 21:22Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, is Days of Thunder 2 really what we want to go out on?

• 21:24Sean Fennessey?

  I truly don't care about it. Like, I'm really, I'm kind of not interested. Is that weird to say on a movie podcast?

• 21:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm not either, except that we like Tom Cruise and we like Anne Hathaway, you know? So.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  The first trailer will come out and you'll immediately be locked in.

• 21:37Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe, maybe.

• 21:38Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Anne Hathaway and Tom Cruise, these are literally your guys and girls.

• 21:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 21:43Sean Fennessey?

  I know. I just don't care about Days of Thunder. I don't care about NASCAR. I don't know. It's just not, not of interest to me anyhow.

• 21:49Amanda Dobbins?

  So May 28. But, but then won't the X-Men set up 45 other X-Men movies?

• 21:53Sean Fennessey?

  Sure will.

• 21:54Amanda Dobbins?

  What?

• 21:54Sean Fennessey?

  But I'll be able to see them. I just wanted to talk with you about them.

• 21:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. That's great. That's very exciting. Yeah. Okay.

• 21:59Sean Fennessey?

  So I know it's probably better for you than it is for me. Uh, okay.

• 22:04Amanda Dobbins?

  She learned about X-Men from him. It's still the greatest poster. Yeah, it was a really good poster.

• 22:10Sean Fennessey?

  I think the next winner is Michael and, and the Michael Jackson estate. And the fact that this movie, which received some of the worst pre-release press that you could ever imagine about the way that it was refashioned, re-edited, recut, reshot, um, it raced to $1 billion worldwide. And it made $375 million here in the States. And it's the Lionsgate's biggest movie ever. Universal had the overseas rights, so they made a trundle of money. Because it made, you know, over 700, $600 million overseas.

• 22:44Sean Fennessey?

  Michael Part 2 will come, it sounds like, either late next year or early 2028. And I'm sure that that'll be a very chill movie with not a lot of complications around it.

• 22:53Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I predicted on the show a couple of weeks ago that I think there's a chance that this movie gets a Best Picture nomination.

• 22:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I predicted that I think that there's a chance. You're already like hedging deeply. You gotta, you gotta take a stand. Remember, we talked about this? Juliette said that her fall goals are living with intention.

• 23:09Sean Fennessey?

  My hedging here is not because of lack of confidence. It's because it's something that I don't want to happen.

• 23:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. You just don't want to deal with it.

• 23:14Sean Fennessey?

  I don't like the film. I don't like the film. I don't want to talk about the film for six months. Um, but.

• 23:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, we don't really have to talk about it that much. We didn't talk about F1 that much.

• 23:22Sean Fennessey?

  You're right. You're right about that. But I think that specifically.

• 23:25Amanda Dobbins?

  That is a movie that people saw.

• 23:27Sean Fennessey?

  I know for a fact that if it goes in, it will be pushing a more deserving film out. Almost certainly.

• 23:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 23:33Sean Fennessey?

  The, the odds of the 11th place film being worse are low.

• 23:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:37Sean Fennessey?

  So, but the movie is such a success. It is, it's the first billion dollar biopic. This has never really happened before. And it makes sense because Michael Jackson is such a Titanic figure to world culture.

• 23:50Amanda Dobbins?

  And they have the catalog, so they just blast the music.

• 23:53Sean Fennessey?

  The music's in there. And the music and the dancing is in there. And Jafar Jackson did, he did his thing, right? He did the thing that, that, that needed to happen for the movie to work. Any reflection on this? Does it tell you anything?

• 24:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I do wonder how much it is a rejoinder to what we were saying at the beginning of the podcast and what has been kind of the takeaway of the summer, what we're about to discuss, which is like, old things out, new, young things in. This is a generational shift, unless you're making an incredibly traditional, to the point of, you know, all societal blinders on film about one of the greatest pop stars to ever do it. So, you know, there, I guess there are always exceptions. And people don't really have morals, or I guess two other lessons. But it's not really that surprising. It, to me, it just feels

• 24:51Amanda Dobbins?

  like there is, there, I mean, there are always going to be exceptions, right?

• 24:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Amanda Dobbins?

  And then you're going to get Get Smart starring John Mulaney.

• 24:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, Get Smart, obviously, does not hold 1, 1,000th of the cultural power that something like Michael Jackson does. And it makes sense that a Michael Jackson movie would do so well. And it does put, it puts the Beatles quartet of films in an interesting light. Because of course, the Beatles got started roughly 15 years before Michael. And they, they were at the peak of their fame 25 years before Michael was at the peak of his fame. And so I think it's actually an interesting test of like Gen X millennial culture versus boomer culture. That the Beatles are representative of something that we really feel like has, has moved on. And the Beatles are eternal to us, but.

• 25:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's, let's call the booth. You guys care about the Beatles?

• 25:35Speaker 02

  I do.

• 25:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, Lucas? Lucas, I, that was a shrug. Okay. All right. Well, we'll talk about that later.

• 25:43Sean Fennessey?

  I'm fascinated. I, you know, it's, there's not very many people left for whom this sort of thing can be done. Prince is one of them. I think the late Dolly Parton now is maybe somebody who you might, you may see a life story film pretty soon.

• 25:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Madonna, but it's not going to happen, it seems like.

• 25:55Sean Fennessey?

  Madonna, but maybe after she's a little older, perhaps. Um, you know, I'm sure there's more that are not coming immediately to mind. We've still not seen the Kurt Cobain movie. Uh, that's something that could happen. Like Last Days by Gus Van Sant, notwithstanding. So, you know, there's a, maybe a few more opportunities for this from the 20th century musical icons. But this one was probably always going to be the biggest, and it turns out it was the biggest.

• 26:21Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, young filmmakers. Now, Obsession's Currie Barker and Backrooms is Kane Parsons are the two dig your heads of this movement. Obsession's box office, going over it is, is shocking to me. Like, it is shocking. That far exceeds the Brand New Day shock, the Odyssey shock, the Michael Jackson shock. It doesn't mean it's as much money as those three movies, but the amount of money that this movie made, this may never happen again in the history of movies. It's made $512 million. Domestically, it's made $263 million.

• 27:02Sean Fennessey?

  It costs $750,000. It features zero famous people. It's just a good horror movie. It's a good horror movie. It's got a very memorable, very impressive breakout performance from Indy Navaretti. I think it's a clever script. It's got some good moments. I'm a fan of the movie. I'm not denigrating the movie at all. How did this happen?

• 27:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. You posed this question like I'm going to be able to answer what happened. I mean, I also really liked the movie. And I did go, I went after the first weekend when it was like, it, it did really well. And it was clear that it was going to be a thing. And I wanted to be able to talk about Backrooms, which was, you know, the more cinephile tipped movie in conversation together, because they were released so close to each other. And I will say, you know, I went and my record with horror is improving, but still kind of spotty. And I got it. And I think that there is something kind of, I mean, it is broad. And I understand that it uses all of the horror tropes and, and many romantic comedy tropes.

• 28:06Amanda Dobbins?

  So it's something that is familiar to the audience. But every once in a while, something just hits the spot of recognizable, um, but still a little surprising, but not too provocative to turn people off. And it just got in the zone. And then it becomes a word of mouth thing and the phenomenon of it, right? And it's just like, oh, everyone's seen Obsession. I should also go see Obsession.

• 28:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, going up weekend over weekend a few times was mind blowing. There was a very memorable, like, Wednesday on its fourth week of release where it made like $7 million in one day. And I was like, what the fuck is this? And I think it's all the things that you described. I think that it is both satisfying in a traditional way, but also feels like a new voice, feels like it's hitting some of the genre tropes that you expect. But also, I think, has some really pretty cleverly crafted contemporary ideas about dating, sex, loneliness, you know, friendship, all of these things that we kind of put in a, in a, in a bundle together when we start to generalize about generations that are younger than us. But it does feel like that generation that is younger than us was like, well, yeah, this is getting some things right.

• 29:14Sean Fennessey?

  And it's made by a 26-year-old. And that 26-year-old does seem to have tapped into his own personal feelings, which are then an extension of a generation of feelings. But I also think 50-year-olds enjoyed the movie. I, I heard Tom Pellicero, um, one of the new NFL, Ringer NFL podcast hosts, say that on his flight to Australia for today's Rams, uh, 49ers game.

• 29:35Amanda Dobbins?

  They're playing in Australia?

• 29:36Sean Fennessey?

  He watched Obsession. I know. If we, if we want to go down that rabbit hole, I think it's fucking stupid. So stupid. So unfair to the players.

• 29:44Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, but why? I mean, I understand. Yeah, yeah. Listen, I, like, I understand how, I understand how it all works.

• 29:51Sean Fennessey?

  I hate it. I think it's totally unfair to those teams.

• 29:53Amanda Dobbins?

  That seems really silly.

• 29:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 29:55Amanda Dobbins?

  I'd still like to go to Australia. Nothing against Australia. Haven't been.

• 29:58Sean Fennessey?

  No, I would love to go to Australia. I'd love Australia. I love the idea of Australia, at least.

• 30:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I'd like to go in our winter, their summer.

• 30:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, same. Maybe we'll make that happen after the X-Men episode.

• 30:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. But that'll be our summer. So then we have to hang on.

• 30:12Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. So then December 2028, we'll do our last episode. And then we'll go straight to Australia.

• 30:20Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't want to do the last episode in Australia?

• 30:22Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe, maybe so.

• 30:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 30:23Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe so. If anybody in Australia would like to welcome us, please let us know. That'll be for two years from now.

• 30:30Sean Fennessey?

  Currie Barker is another movie coming up. I thought this new movie, Anything But Ghosts, was going to come out in the spring. And now I'm starting to wonder if they're going to wait a little while to.

• 30:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, try to distance?

• 30:40Sean Fennessey?

  From the film. And this film, I think, is more of a pure comedy, pure horror comedy, as opposed to Obsession, which is pure horror with some very funny moments. But I, I'm interested. Um, Aaron Paul is in the film. Bryce Dallas Howard's in the film. And Azar Currie and his partner, Cooper Tomlinson.

• 31:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm open.

• 31:03Sean Fennessey?

  This movie was an acquisition. Focus bought this out of the Toronto International Film Festival for 15 million. What a buy.

• 31:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Obsession.

• 31:10Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Not anything but ghosts. Yeah.

• 31:14Sean Fennessey?

  Is that, is that the greatest obsession, uh, the greatest acquisition ever?

• 31:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, probably from a number sense, I think so.

• 31:21Sean Fennessey?

  Unbelievable. God damn. Okay, Backrooms.

• 31:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Sean Fennessey?

  Made $394 million.

• 31:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:28Sean Fennessey?

  Made almost $200 million here in the States.

• 31:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 31:32Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, four of the 10 highest grossing A24 movies have been released in the past 16 months.

• 31:39Amanda Dobbins?

  They said they were gonna do it, and now they're doing it.

• 31:41Sean Fennessey?

  Pretty crazy.

• 31:42Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm happy for them.

• 31:43Sean Fennessey?

  Is this repeatable at all for Backrooms? Will Kane Parsons be a part of the movie-going firmament for the next 25 years?

• 31:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, in some ways, Backrooms was IP for a generation that is not us, right? And I think much of the response, and certainly the hype, was because there is an entire generation of children who have watched the entire YouTube series and knew all the lore and were living up to it. And, you know, I, I think, far be it for me to speak for the youth, but they had mixed feelings about how this installment lived up to their understanding of the lore, which is, you know, being, being a fan, welcome, welcome, kids, this is, this is how it works. You're gonna be disappointed for the rest of your life. But there is also, you know, it is a franchise in its, in its own way.

• 32:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 32:32Amanda Dobbins?

  So, and I think he obviously has such a built-in audience from YouTube that clearly followed him to this, and I don't think are gonna give up on his next. So I don't know if it's gonna be a $400 billion film, the next one, but I think it will be successful.

• 32:48Sean Fennessey?

  I agree with you. I think arguably even, an even bigger winner than Kane Parsons and the makers of Backrooms is all of the people who will be rewarded.

• 32:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 32:58Sean Fennessey?

  Off as online creators for trying to make the next Backrooms. There are so many deals going around right now in Hollywood from production companies and studios trying to find the next Kane or trying to find the next Curry, that what it feels like to me is the post-grunge alternative music gold rush, when all of these bands in the 1990s got signed to major labels, and they all were expected to have the next Jeremy or the next Smells Like Teen Spirit, and none of them could conjure it, or they could have one hit, and then they found themselves in massive debt, or part of this kind of buzzbin nostalgia, you know, remainder. And there's gonna be.

• 33:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 33:36Sean Fennessey?

  30 movies in the next two years that, that are gonna attempt to recreate this, and one or two are gonna hit, and everything else, and some of them might be really good, but they're gonna get cast aside. And it's, this is, I think this is like a generational turnover, not just in terms of how old the people are, but in terms of the style of movie, the tone of movie that you're gonna get. How many more liminal space films will we get now? What expectations do we have for the audience to kind of encounter and engage with storytelling like this? Like, there's, there's gonna be so many after-effects of this that I'm so interested to see, but could be like painful or pretty dull for us as movie watchers.

• 34:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. And I mean, we, there were smaller but still notable successes this year of YouTube creators, kind of even jumping the studio system and going directly some theaters and making a lot of money. And, you know, I didn't see most of those because that seems like none of my business, frankly. But it is enough of a business for some people and for the theaters to, you know, make space and incentivize it a bit. So, yeah, I think, I think you're right. I mean, in some ways, that's just the history of art and capital being entwined, which is if you get one hit and then you get 40 copycats.

• 34:46Sean Fennessey?

  No doubt.

• 34:46Amanda Dobbins?

  We've seen it in, in every genre across the world, but, yeah, I'm gonna learn about, a lot about YouTube in the next years, or maybe I won't.

• 34:54Sean Fennessey?

  It's, it's arguable that Mark Fishback, that, that Iron Lung, his film.

• 34:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:59Sean Fennessey?

  Is actually the, the most astonishing story from this kind of ream of YouTube content creator-turned-film makers, because, you know, he's a little older and he's been on YouTube a longer period of time and has a bigger fan base in that space. However, he independently distributed his movie. He self-distributed his movie, which made over $50 million, and was based on a video game, but even still, self-distribution? Like, that, that's, that's a whole other, that's from the 1960s. That's something that just does not happen. And the only reason that that happened is because of the demand from his fans, who insisted that they put his movie on their screens. So, again, like, I, I see all of those things kind of together. There's the amazing digital circus. There's a couple of other examples of this.

• 35:42Sean Fennessey?

  One of the most interesting ones is, that we haven't talked about, and I haven't seen yet, is the, just the filmed version of Hades: Town and the Musical.

• 35:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 35:48Sean Fennessey?

  Which did gangbusters over the late summer, and was supposed to be a one-week release, where they filmed, I think, three performances of that, that musical. And it did so well that they extended it a second week, and then extended it a third week, and I think it crossed like $40 million. That's another thing where it's just like, fans demanding something and getting it. Coyote versus Acme is the same thing. Fans were just like, Warner Brothers tried to kill this movie, we don't accept that. We making a loud, noisy online campaign, catch up pics of the movie, that movie's gonna make $50 million, maybe more.

• 36:20Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it is, it is great news that what fans are demanding is, please show it in a movie theater.

• 36:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And I don't think that five years ago, in, you know, in 2021, that we would've expected that at all. It seemed like it was completely dead. And it does, you know, this, this transition is a little bit more of, it's a, it's a concert model, like a tour model.

• 36:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 36:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Or an amusement park model or something, where you're not, you're not seeing this demand for every single of the hundreds of movies that are released every year. But on the other hand, theaters are at least back in the conversation.

• 36:54Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. And it is kind of limited, limited engagement eventization.

• 36:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Sean Fennessey?

  You know, and it feels a little bit maybe more like the era's tour model, where you've got something that has a three or four-week window that will appear in theaters, and that's the only time you can see it, and race out to go, and then that will drive box office. But if that's something that can work, they should pursue more of it.

• 37:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Great.

• 37:16Sean Fennessey?

  You know, some of it is strategy, some of it isn't. And then there's also like a plenty of, I guess we'd call quote-unquote "smaller" titles, that just did like good business. Like The Invite, The Sheep Detectives, like those movies just did good business. Like, they justified their existence and also made people happy and are memorable movies. So, stuff like that working, in addition to a couple more blockbusters that we'll talk about here, I find very encouraging. Two huge Disney movies this year, huge.

• 37:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:40Sean Fennessey?

  Both of which I think we would've predicted were going to be big. Would you have predicted that The Devil Wears Prada 2 would have made $700 million worldwide?

• 37:47Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I don't think I did in the box office game that we predict, that we did. And I was protecting my heart a little bit. But once the rollout and the tour started, again, this is another correction to our theory of like, it's only new young people now, you know, they were, they were doing photo calls for two months.

• 38:08Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 38:09Amanda Dobbins?

  With that movie. And, you know, Meryl in Matthew Blazey's Chanel, like, all over the world. And so it was very, very traditional. That movie is filled with easter eggs to the original. It really was reheating something that was big 20 years ago. But because it's such an underserved market, and by that, I mean women who like to have fun,

• 38:30Amanda Dobbins?

  it, it worked out. I think you, you couldn't do it, I'm sure they'll try to do Devil Wears Prada 3, and I wonder if that will do as well.

• 38:39Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's funny, because I paired this film with Toy Story 5. And, and Toy Story 5 did, I would say, almost exact, this is one of the few films where I was like, I know what this is. I know this is gonna be a billion-dollar movie. Toy Story always works. I liked it a lot, you didn't like it so much.

• 38:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:55Sean Fennessey?

  But it has, they have a formula in place, and those characters are, those characters are kind of in the Spider-Man zone of just like.

• 39:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 39:03Sean Fennessey?

  You know, Woody and Buzz and Jesse, or, these are my friends. It was a Jesse movie, please, support women.

• 39:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Sean Fennessey?

  I think that Pixar has done something really interesting with their sequels, where they've taken more time between them than any other studio normally would. And we'll talk about that when we get into some of the losers of the summer. But Toy Story 5, I think, is seven years after Toy Story 4, and I think Toy Story 4 is like seven years after Toy Story 3. So, there's gaps in time. There were a big gap between Incredibles and Incredibles 2.

• 39:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:34Sean Fennessey?

  You know, like, movies like that, that then Inside Out and Inside Out 2 had a huge gap between them. And so you had a generation of fans that came in to fill that space. Devil Wears Prada 2 is the same thing. Came out 20 years ago.

• 39:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:47Sean Fennessey?

  Two generations of movie fans, and a lot of female movie fans, claimed that movie. And then they waited just long enough that it was exciting to see these characters together on screen again. And I wonder if rather than going back 80 years, or 60 years for Get Smart, maybe the 2000s are the thing that should be pilfered for new IP?

• 40:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, though, I mean, even the 2000s, you sort of, there weren't that many original things.

• 40:18Sean Fennessey?

  Well, that was when things started to shift, right?

• 40:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly. So it's like, you know, we didn't know how good we had it, but also, they, they are reanimating most of the things from 2002 to 2009, that we, or 2008, I should say, when.

• 40:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, there have been obviously some examples of this, like Avatar: Coming Back was an example of bringing back a 2000s-era movie and, and reigniting it. I mean, they're gonna try to bring back Pirates of the Caribbean. That's an example of something, there hasn't been a new one in a long time. Johnny Depp, I guess, is back. We're gonna have to have a whole Johnny Depp conversation when Ebenezer comes out in, in November. What are some other, I mean, Shrek is coming back. That's a 2000s thing. Like this, maybe I put my finger on what I think is like, this is actually the new nostalgia that the studios are playing with, that, and, and I'm, I'm not a rocket scientist or anything, but I'm just putting this together at this exact moment. Trying to, I mean, Harry Potter's coming back to HBO, that's another 2000s thing.

• 41:10Sean Fennessey?

  The Da Vinci Code is coming back to television, that's another 2000s thing.

• 41:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, Robert Langdon, okay?

• 41:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 41:15Amanda Dobbins?

  They're not remaking The Da Vinci Code.

• 41:17Sean Fennessey?

  Right, Robert Langdon.

• 41:17Amanda Dobbins?

  No, it's a different Robert Langdon, who Tom Hanks plays him in the movies. And I had some Da Vinci Code complaints that I wanted to make, but I can't remember what they are now.

• 41:29Sean Fennessey?

  I'm looking at the highest grossing movies of the 2000s right now.

• 41:32Amanda Dobbins?

  It's Morgan Spector, who's gonna be Robert Langdon, right?

• 41:35Sean Fennessey?

  That's correct.

• 41:35Amanda Dobbins?

  That's great stuff.

• 41:37Sean Fennessey?

  Um, any other thoughts on Toy Story 5?

• 41:42Amanda Dobbins?

  It was not that great, but I'm glad that you liked it.

• 41:47Sean Fennessey?

  It's the third highest grossing Pixar movie ever behind Incredibles 2 and Inside Out 2.

• 41:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think that Toy Story 5 is bringing in new fans? Or, you know, is it all five-year-olds like Alice who had seen Toy Story 1 through 4 ahead of time?

• 42:03Sean Fennessey?

  New fans? Like, is it their first Toy Story movie?

• 42:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Sean Fennessey?

  I'm sure for, I'm sure it was a lot of kids' first movie in the theater.

• 42:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 42:12Sean Fennessey?

  Or first Toy Story movie in the theater.

• 42:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:13Sean Fennessey?

  But probably not anybody who's like, I'm gonna start with Toy Story 5. That would be kind of confusing.

• 42:18Amanda Dobbins?

  It would.

• 42:18Sean Fennessey?

  They would think that Jessie was the most important character in the entire universe, which, you know, through some people's eyes, she is. You know, Lucas reminds me that you did guess almost exactly right for the domestic gross of the Devil Wears Prada 2.

• 42:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, you know.

• 42:32Sean Fennessey?

  Almost exactly. You guessed 210 million and made 220 million. That's pretty good.

• 42:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you. Sometimes, you know, I have a very, I have a very specific area of expertise.

• 42:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 42:42Amanda Dobbins?

  But, but I got it.

• 42:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you're like, um.

• 42:44Amanda Dobbins?

  How are things at Coach?

• 42:48Sean Fennessey?

  Big losers this summer.

• 42:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh huh.

• 42:51Sean Fennessey?

  Disney live action.

• 42:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and all of us who had to sit in the theater and watch it.

• 42:56Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, Moana was absolutely terrible.

• 42:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I can't believe how bad it was.

• 42:59Sean Fennessey?

  And it made $315 million worldwide, which for this movie is a tremendous disappointment because this is one of the most valuable properties that the studio has. And Moana 2 was a billion-dollar movie less than two years ago. Obviously, this movie came way too soon after Moana 2. The Rock is in a bit of a tailspin as a commercial movie star right now.

• 43:20Sean Fennessey?

  I hate these movies. I'm so sick of them. I'm so sick of having to think about them. There is a Tangled one that isn't, I guess, going into production right now. Tangled, one of my daughter's favorite movies.

• 43:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 43:29Sean Fennessey?

  One of my little sister Grace's favorite movies, at least when she was a kid. A movie that I like, that I think is very good.

• 43:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Is Mandy Moore involved in the remake?

• 43:36Sean Fennessey?

  Well, she's not the star. I don't know if she's gonna be participating in it anyway. She's a little too young now to play Rapunzel.

• 43:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, that's right, because it's live action.

• 43:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, it's live-action Rapunzel. So, Mandy Moore is a mom in her 40s. God bless her.

• 43:49Sean Fennessey?

  Disney live action, will they be making these five years from now?

• 43:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, haven't they released their schedules for five years from now?

• 43:56Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think there's more than two.

• 43:57Amanda Dobbins?

  And also, what's left?

• 43:58Sean Fennessey?

  I think only A Lilo and Stitch sequel.

• 44:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 44:00Sean Fennessey?

  Tangled. I don't even know if there's anything else on the slate at the moment.

• 44:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, also, what's left for them to live action?

• 44:07Sean Fennessey?

  Sword in the Stone.

• 44:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 44:09Sean Fennessey?

  Robin Hood.

• 44:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Sean Fennessey?

  Black Cauldron.

• 44:11Amanda Dobbins?

  We have a million live-action Robin Hoods, and I don't want any of them.

• 44:15Sean Fennessey?

  I can't wait to talk to you about the uprising. Cannot wait to talk to you about the uprising.

• 44:19Amanda Dobbins?

  We're good.

• 44:19Sean Fennessey?

  There's, there's quite, The Rescuers, The Rescuers Down Under.

• 44:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Isn't that?

• 44:24Sean Fennessey?

  The Fox and the Hound.

• 44:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Isn't that an animal movie?

• 44:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, these are all animal movies.

• 44:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Did you see the new Koyeta movie, Look Back?

• 44:30Sean Fennessey?

  No, I wasn't at the Venice Film Festival. How dare you?

• 44:32Amanda Dobbins?

  But they were screening it.

• 44:33Sean Fennessey?

  No, I haven't seen it.

• 44:34Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, you have it. So, without, so this is a live action of an anime as well.

• 44:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:40Amanda Dobbins?

  And once again, we just need to stop doing this.

• 44:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Like, there is, this is, that movie in particular really.

• 44:47Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I heard it's very faithful.

• 44:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. And so I think the people who love the anime love it, but I, there is just a real energy difference in, you know, the beautiful animation and then putting real people in. And to me, it felt like I was watching a Lexus commercial when it was just real. It's so saccharine.

• 45:07Sean Fennessey?

  Wow.

• 45:07Amanda Dobbins?

  And I did not get it at all. So.

• 45:10Sean Fennessey?

  I will be starring in the live-action remake of Ponyo as Ponyo. Pretty excited. Speaking of kids and animation, Minions and Monsters.

• 45:21Amanda Dobbins?

  It's a, it's a hit in my house. I don't, I don't know what else to say. Like.

• 45:26Sean Fennessey?

  It's funny to say this movie made $518 million worldwide, and it's a disaster. Because it's obviously not a disaster.

• 45:31Amanda Dobbins?

  By all accounting standards, it is not a success, and it did not do what they wanted.

• 45:36Sean Fennessey?

  Well, but by all accounting standards, it is a success, except when you put it in the context of the entire franchise.

• 45:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 45:42Sean Fennessey?

  Like, the movie, I think, cost like $85 million to make, which is not that much. They made a profit on this movie. It's just that every other Despicable Me movie makes like $900 million.

• 45:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 45:51Sean Fennessey?

  And this made 518. And it was a movie that was clearly made for 40-year-old moms who love movie history and not for.

• 45:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you.

• 45:58Sean Fennessey?

  Seven-year-olds.

• 46:00Amanda Dobbins?

  We love it. We own it.

• 46:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I'm happy for you.

• 46:03Amanda Dobbins?

  And we watch it all the time. We watch all the Despicable Me stuff.

• 46:06Sean Fennessey?

  You own it. You own, you bought it digitally.

• 46:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 46:08Sean Fennessey?

  I see. Okay. Not the, not a, not a 4K.

• 46:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't have a 4K player yet. So, everyone being like, are you gonna get the, well, the Marie Antoinette? And also because Knox wants to watch his ET 4K, and he came home and he was like, Mama, we need a new CD player. So.

• 46:24Sean Fennessey?

  You gotta have a sit-down with him.

• 46:25Amanda Dobbins?

  We'll see. I mean, so many ideas going on in Knox's head right now. You guys would have quite a convention.

• 46:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta catch up really soon. Speaking of kids, the Mandalorian era of Star Wars. I've been thinking about this, not just that The Mandalorian and Grogu was not a financial success, which it was not. It was a pretty radical underperformance relative to all Star Wars movies. But I feel like this actually puts a pin in a period in history.

• 46:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 46:53Sean Fennessey?

  With Star Wars. Because in 2019, we had the final J.J. Abrams film in the Rey trilogy.

• 46:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, which you were incredibly normal about.

• 47:02Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it sucked, right?

• 47:03Amanda Dobbins?

  It sucked. And also, the way that they wrapped it up was offensive. Even, even I can get in on that.

• 47:08Sean Fennessey?

  It was terrible. Everybody knows it was terrible. And there's a variety of reasons why it was terrible. It was rushed. They chose the wrong path for the story. The CGI was bad. There's so many, didn't kill Chewie. So many things.

• 47:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Nevertheless.

• 47:18Sean Fennessey?

  You know, yeah.

• 47:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Or what was it not Nevertheless, She persisted? What was it?

• 47:22Sean Fennessey?

  Somehow Palpatine returned. Yeah, somehow Palpatine returned. Many terrible things about it. But that same year was the year that The Mandalorian launched on TV.

• 47:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:31Sean Fennessey?

  In 2019. And that, those first two seasons of The Mandalorian, I thought were stellar. I thought they were really cool. And they were, they were a path forward for Star Wars. And they've since dead-ended. I noticed that, as I was looking this up last night, that there hasn't been a new Star Wars TV property that has launched since the end of 2024, when Skeleton Crew came out. And this movie comes out, it's basically four TV episodes clung together. I don't know if we're ever gonna have another Mandalorian season. Probably, but maybe not. And now Starfighter comes next year. And that's kind of reset the table. And I'm kind of wondering if, after we get Ahsoka season 2, all that stuff is like, that's from over there, from the past. This is no longer a TV business.

• 48:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 48:16Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe we'll continue with our animated series, because they seem to work well. There was a Darth Maul series that did well, I guess. But, I didn't watch it. But we're gonna get back to eventizing movies.

• 48:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 48:28Sean Fennessey?

  Starting with Starfighter. And then we're gonna go to the next trilogy that's been rumored, which, you know, I think will involve past and present figures.

• 48:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. I mean, I think just the wild underperformance of Mandalorian and Grogu cemented to everyone. Like, the TV shows devalued what we're doing here, and people can tell the difference between TV shows and movies.

• 48:49Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 48:49Amanda Dobbins?

  And aren't gonna accept one in the other space, unless you're my two-year-old, who this morning turned on the TV and said, Mandy Grogu.

• 48:57Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 48:57Amanda Dobbins?

  He's never seen it. We didn't turn it on.

• 49:00Sean Fennessey?

  It can be a little scary for him.

• 49:01Amanda Dobbins?

  No screens before school in my house.

• 49:04Sean Fennessey?

  No screens before, well, yeah.

• 49:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, of course.

• 49:06Sean Fennessey?

  We've never turned the TV on in the morning.

• 49:07Amanda Dobbins?

  But, but he tried, you know?

• 49:08Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. After school, sometimes, not usually.

• 49:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:11Sean Fennessey?

  We're more of a weekend TV household at this point.

• 49:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, listen, the licensing, the figurines worked. Like, I'm still thinking about the, the two toddler meltdown that occurred in JFK over a Lego Mandal, a Grogu Lego figurine.

• 49:30Sean Fennessey?

  A Lego?

• 49:30Amanda Dobbins?

  A Lego. Innovating here. Um, I mean, it was like a physical brawl. I was so embarrassed.

• 49:38Sean Fennessey?

  Get ready for 10 more years of that, as somebody with a younger brother.

• 49:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but we're in the airport.

• 49:43Sean Fennessey?

  Means nothing.

• 49:44Amanda Dobbins?

  The number of times I yelled, do you wanna go to airport jail?

• 49:47Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 49:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Nothing.

• 49:48Sean Fennessey?

  Location is irrelevant. Only place worse than airport jail is casino jail. As somebody who's.

• 49:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I think.

• 49:53Sean Fennessey?

  I've not been inside, I've not been behind bars in casino jail, but I've been to casino jail.

• 49:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I think Eagles jail is the lowest rung.

• 50:00Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yes. Sure. Well put. Yes. That is, that is the.

• 50:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I have not.

• 50:04Sean Fennessey?

  The final rung of hell.

• 50:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I have not visited Eagles jail or had to bail anyone out of it yet.

• 50:09Sean Fennessey?

  I would never go to that stadium. Never in my life. Another loser, Supergirl. And, and with.

• 50:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow, that was so bad.

• 50:17Sean Fennessey?

  It was really bad. With Supergirl, I think, is tier-two superhero movies. When you're not on the A-team, it's clear that it's gonna be a lot harder to find success. This movie only made $126 million worldwide. That's an epic bomb.

• 50:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it was, it was a bomb of an experience.

• 50:34Sean Fennessey?

  It sucked.

• 50:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I haven't thought about it.

• 50:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 50:35Amanda Dobbins?

  But it really, really stuck. Can I ask you something? Was that Florence Pugh Marvel movie this year or last year?

• 50:41Sean Fennessey?

  No, that was last year.

• 50:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Because I've just been like, where's Florence Pugh?

• 50:43Sean Fennessey?

  Thunderbolts?

• 50:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 50:45Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I mean, she's gonna.

• 50:47Amanda Dobbins?

  She's gonna be in Dune. I know.

• 50:48Sean Fennessey?

  No, but she's dominating Dune's Day, because she's also in the Avengers.

• 50:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 50:54Sean Fennessey?

  So, is that gonna be the single biggest box office day for any movie star in movie history? Because she will be in both Dune Part 3 and Avengers: Doomsday.

• 51:03Amanda Dobbins?

  And then she's also.

• 51:04Sean Fennessey?

  She's Elena. She's, she's a big part of that movie, I think.

• 51:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. And then she's also in East of Eden, so.

• 51:08Sean Fennessey?

  And East of Eden on Netflix, which I heard is good, and I would like to watch.

• 51:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I would as well. But I just, I couldn't, I thought she had disappeared forever. And Thunderbolts is a similar, they, you know, they tried to launch B-list Avengers.

• 51:19Sean Fennessey?

  They did.

• 51:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Avengers, Dark Avengers?

• 51:21Sean Fennessey?

  Dark Avengers.

• 51:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 51:22Sean Fennessey?

  New Avengers?

• 51:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 51:23Sean Fennessey?

  The new Avengers, I believe. New Avengers, yeah.

• 51:25Amanda Dobbins?

  That was, that was a really smart idea, to just have two names for a movie with an asterisk.

• 51:32Sean Fennessey?

  That was kind of fun.

• 51:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 51:33Sean Fennessey?

  I think Marvel should have more fun. What do you think is, what's dark big pick?

• 51:39Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe that's the third chair episode where it's just all the third chairs fighting and posing with their superpowers. More specifically, Supergirl is emblematic of the major lack of success of Warner Brothers. Last year, I think Warner Brothers accounted for about 25% of the box office every summer 2025. This year, they account for 5%. Not good. Things are not going well.

• 52:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Mike and Pam writing, hi, Mike and Pam, not having it as great a year. And that's before you take into account everything that's happening to Warner Brothers ownership, which, good luck to everyone, I guess.

• 52:12Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not addressing that issue of late.

• 52:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I was gonna say, like, good luck to everyone except the people that we don't wish luck to.

• 52:16Sean Fennessey?

  I think Warner Brothers will be fine because they do have Cat in the Hat, they have Dune Part III, they have some movies coming out this fall, they have Digger, of course, we'll see if that performs. They have some movies that have a chance to be bigger, but very bad summer for them. The last thing I wanted to mention to you quickly before we go into the game results, Masters of the Universe obviously was a bomb. It only made $113 million worldwide. We talked about my deep, emotional, complex relationship and problems and love for all of that. It's a huge streaming hit. It's one of the biggest streaming movies in the history of Amazon. It debuted to over 1 billion minutes watched, which is one of those fake stats, but I think is notable because it was basically like putting it at the top of the charts when it came out. Now, that does make sense because, and to your point about Mandalorian and Grogu, I think there's something to this too, which is that Masters of the Universe and He-Man is a TV property.

• 53:00Sean Fennessey?

  It was a TV show. But a lot of people have now seen this movie. And that is actually, when you get right down to it, what matters the most is who sees the movies? And I'm trying to figure out, is there a world where it makes sense for Masters of the Universe to have a sequel that is streaming only and is that coherent in a way that the movie in movie theaters wasn't? Which is kind of a rejection of everything that we normally say about movies. You know what I mean?

• 53:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Sort of, but I don't know if people have seen it is the only thing that matters if it's not making money.

• 53:32Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's keeping people engaged on the Prime video service.

• 53:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, which works for Amazon, which is also, but you know, for Amazon, for Apple, and I guess.

• 53:41Sean Fennessey?

  And for Netflix.

• 53:42Amanda Dobbins?

  And for Netflix, sort of, these are just loss leaders. And that's okay. But that's not true for Universal and Warner Brothers and all of, and 824, and all of the people who make the movies that need theaters and need people going to theaters. So I guess that's great for Amazon, but if Amazon just then makes direct, keeps, and mostly keeps making direct to Prime streaming videos of poor quality that people do their laundry to, that's a type of movie that's definitely Elaine. But it's, I don't know if that's great for certainly the quality of movies and maybe not for the health of the business and everything else that we were talking about long term.

• 54:23Sean Fennessey?

  I know. I think I'm speaking just specifically about this franchise. Like, is there a world where, and we've talked about this many times over the years, where films that get proper marketing budgets always perform better at home? Like films that get theatrical release because they get stronger marketing and commercial representation? And then there's just more awareness of them and they feel more real. So Masters of the Universe, even though nobody went, it's the classic example of I'll wait for streaming. And then people did, and then they watched it on streaming. But then does that set up a franchise that doesn't need theatrical anymore? Because they already got that marketing push and now this is like a revived IP that has a value to the service? I'm just gonna say, yes, I think it is, which is unusual.

• 55:05Sean Fennessey?

  There's not a lot of examples of this where you could be like, if they can get Nicholas Galison and Camilla Mendes and Idris Elba back together again, like they could just make another one of these movies.

• 55:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I bet they can.

• 55:16Sean Fennessey?

  If they spend enough money, I'll bet they can. I just thought that was interesting as a takeaway from a movie that would otherwise be discarded as a total failure.

• 55:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I just, the rules for Amazon, Apple, Netflix, and the companies that make movies as an add-on to what their actual business is.

• 55:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 55:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Are very different than the movies for movie studios.

• 55:39Sean Fennessey?

  No doubt about it.

• 55:40Amanda Dobbins?

  And the rules for movie studios.

• 55:41Sean Fennessey?

  Did you read about the Apple Fold Phone?

• 55:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I read texts about it.

• 55:46Sean Fennessey?

  Remember those?

• 55:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I know, but then I didn't see a demo, but like, maybe I'm interested. Am I interested?

• 55:51Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it'll be smaller.

• 55:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Also, what movie recently was someone using, it's set in the future and someone's using a Fold? Like, no, it's a Fold Phone, but it seems to have all of the optionality of a smartphone.

• 56:05Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know what movie you're talking about.

• 56:06Amanda Dobbins?

  But I was sort of.

• 56:07Sean Fennessey?

  Disclosure Day?

• 56:08Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I don't think so. That is just the segue with the alien. I can't remember. I'm not opposed to it. Are you opposed to it?

• 56:15Sean Fennessey?

  No, I thought it was interesting.

• 56:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 56:17Sean Fennessey?

  And I was like, Apple, you got me again. You mentioned something that seems obvious. You developed it, you built it, and now I'm like, $2,000 seems reasonable.

• 56:26Amanda Dobbins?

  So then.

• 56:27Sean Fennessey?

  Which is fucking crazy.

• 56:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, it's $2,000?

• 56:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's, that is the MSRP.

• 56:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay. So then what does it matter, though, what their, you know, what their movie strategy is for the next? It doesn't. They can do whatever they want.

• 56:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, my advice would be to make good films.

• 56:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Same.

• 56:43Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, the movie game. We predict the box office and Metacritic scores, and we have a very elaborate point system. Lucas Cavanagh has helpfully tallied them. A couple of quick highlights for you.

• 56:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 56:54Sean Fennessey?

  We hit on a couple of films, we missed on a couple of films. Our misses were pretty bad. Obsession is the most interesting one to me because I guessed 42 million and I thought that that was like a pretty generous guess.

• 57:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Sean Fennessey?

  And you guessed 15 million, which was the price of acquisition for the film out of TIFF, and it made 263. Backrooms, we guessed 67 and 16 respectively. It made 198. The Odyssey, we guessed 412 and 350 respectively. It made 589. Toy Story 5, we guessed 401 and 503. It made 480. That was pretty good. Spider-Man: Brand New Day, I guessed 527, you guessed 580. It made 923.

• 57:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Sean Fennessey?

  Honkers. You wanna hear your misses?

• 57:41Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm aware of them, but go ahead.

• 57:44Sean Fennessey?

  Billie Eilish hit me hard and soft. The Tour, parentheses, live in 3D.

• 57:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 57:49Sean Fennessey?

  I guessed 42 million, you guessed 160 million.

• 57:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, listen, we were just talking about the Eras Tour and the Taylor Swift of it all. And all I hear about Billie Eilish, so important, Billie Eilish, she deserves all the Oscars over Dua Lipa. Billie Eilish, Billie Eilish. Okay, where were they?

• 58:03Sean Fennessey?

  We'll get to Dua Lipa later in this podcast. This movie made 9.9 million dollars. We say, as a rule on this show, that Big Jim does not miss. As the co-director of this film, Big Jim missed.

• 58:16Amanda Dobbins?

  He really did.

• 58:17Sean Fennessey?

  He missed. For the first time ever, he missed.

• 58:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Where were the young people? I don't know.

• 58:24Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know. Power Ballad, I guessed 26 million, you guessed 16 million. It made 2.6 million.

• 58:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I was being nice with 16 million. Yeah.

• 58:31Sean Fennessey?

  That's dark. Mandalorian Grogu, I guessed 275 million because I was nervous about how things were going. You guessed 421 and it made 178.

• 58:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I was wrong.

• 58:40Sean Fennessey?

  You were wrong. Minions and Monsters.

• 58:42Amanda Dobbins?

  So were you.

• 58:42Sean Fennessey?

  I was.

• 58:43Amanda Dobbins?

  So was Disney.

• 58:44Sean Fennessey?

  They were. Minions and Monsters, I guessed 352, you guessed 350. We were so close and it made about half that, $183 million.

• 58:52Amanda Dobbins?

  That's okay.

• 58:53Sean Fennessey?

  Supergirl, I guessed 159, you guessed 190, it made 72. Jackass Best in the Last Heartbreaking here. I guessed $81 million. Way, way overshot.

• 59:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, yeah, it was a clip reel. What are you gonna do?

• 59:05Sean Fennessey?

  You guessed 60 million, it made $18 million. And Moana, this is probably the most dramatic miss of the whole thing. I guessed 412, you guessed 410. We were so close in our guesses. It made 126. I don't know if this is just an anomaly or if it augurs something new about the Disney live action thing. It's very interesting to me. One Night Only, I guessed 76 million, you guessed 38 million.

• 59:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 59:29Sean Fennessey?

  It only made 11.5 million. I'll share my thoughts on One Night Only shortly.

• 59:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 59:33Sean Fennessey?

  I also had this in my movie fantasy league.

• 59:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 59:36Sean Fennessey?

  And it really fucked me.

• 59:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm sorry about that.

• 59:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's tough. Super Troopers 3, I guessed 48 million.

• 59:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 59:41Sean Fennessey?

  You guessed 22 million, it made 7 million.

• 59:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 59:44Sean Fennessey?

  Tough one. Fun fact, for Disclosure Day?

• 59:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 59:52Sean Fennessey?

  I guessed a 74 Metacritic score.

• 59:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 59:55Sean Fennessey?

  And $121 million for the gross.

• 59:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 59:58Sean Fennessey?

  It had a 74 Metacritic score and $117 million for the gross.

• 1:00:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  That's just fucking perfect. Come on.

• 1:00:05Sean Fennessey?

  Isn't that amazing?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  It's so good. It's so good for our brand.

• 1:00:09Sean Fennessey?

  To nail that movie, the way that I nailed that movie, and I nailed that movie, the way that I nailed it?

• 1:00:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm. I'm happy for you. Yeah. So then let's, let's go to the final and then I'd like to do just like a little bit of reflection.

• 1:00:20Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. The final score.

• 1:00:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Sean Fennessey?

  I had 166 points total. You had 153 points.

• 1:00:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. So you went.

• 1:00:26Sean Fennessey?

  I'm the victor.

• 1:00:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Congratulations.

• 1:00:28Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you. This was a tough summer to predict.

• 1:00:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you, do you feel a sense of accomplishment?

• 1:00:34Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:00:34Amanda Dobbins?

  That you won? Do you feel a sense of accomplishment?

• 1:00:36Sean Fennessey?

  I love to play games with my friends.

• 1:00:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. That's nice. Yeah.

• 1:00:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. What, what accomplishment? What do I get?

• 1:00:42Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. You make such a big deal about it. You talk so much about box office. I'm just like, you know, will you, you won't leave this studio with a spring in your step?

• 1:00:49Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's one of the only art forms where there's a public accounting of success, which is something I find interesting.

• 1:00:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:00:56Sean Fennessey?

  And we can trust it because it is correlated to the stock price and the industry that is contingent upon it in movie theaters. So I do talk about it a lot because I think it, it speaks specifically to what is working and what is not working in the business and art form that we care so much about.

• 1:01:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:01:12Sean Fennessey?

  So the game is just really a sign that I'm by no means a box office expert, nor are you. I'm just somebody who's really interested in how it works in the history of it. The disclosure today thing is too funny.

• 1:01:23Amanda Dobbins?

  It's good.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  It's incredible. Let me ask you a question. If there were stakes, if we brought back the previously discussed Amanda reorganizes your physical media.

• 1:01:32Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I never got to do that.

• 1:01:33Sean Fennessey?

  That's still on the table. Yeah, that's still on the table.

• 1:01:35Amanda Dobbins?

  And we never did the screening of a, a movie that I don't want to watch.

• 1:01:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, we can do both of those things in 2029 when the show wraps up.

• 1:01:45Amanda Dobbins?

  From Australia?

• 1:01:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Uh, did we say that the reorganization needs to happen on camera? We didn't say that, right?

• 1:01:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  I'm saying it. I'm saying it.

• 1:01:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. What's the fun of doing it?

• 1:01:55Sean Fennessey?

  I don't want any cameras in my house.

• 1:01:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I'll just wear a GoPro.

• 1:01:58Sean Fennessey?

  I don't want any cameras in my house.

• 1:01:59Amanda Dobbins?

  And then narrate it. You'll find that it's the ADU.

• 1:02:02Sean Fennessey?

  Well, that's a part of my house. Is it not a part of my house? It's a garage. Uh, okay. Let's talk about some new movies.

• 1:02:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:02:10Sean Fennessey?

  Well, this is pretty quickly.

• 1:02:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Sean Fennessey?

  I saw the uprising last night.

• 1:02:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:02:14Sean Fennessey?

  You haven't seen it, right?

• 1:02:14Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I haven't.

• 1:02:15Sean Fennessey?

  New film from Paul Greengrass, who is really one of the most successful directors of the 21st century. He directed two Bourne movies. He directed United 93, Captain Phillips, Sunday Bloody Sunday, a number, number of very, very good films. This new movie stars Andrew Garfield, Jamie Bell, Stephen Delane, Tom Hollander, Cosmo Jarvis, Thomason Mackenzie, Johnny Lee Miller, Woody Norman, Catherine Waterston. Big cast, really good cast. It is about the peasant revolt of 1831 where after the plague sweeps across Europe, kills half the population, King Richard II and the oligarchs, they impose this tax on the common people.

• 1:02:51Amanda Dobbins?

  What plague was in the twenties? 1820 plague European?

• 1:02:55Sean Fennessey?

  No, it's not 1820. It's 1380s.

• 1:02:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:02:57Sean Fennessey?

  Sorry. That's, that's a typo.

• 1:02:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, great.

• 1:03:00Sean Fennessey?

  1381. Excuse me.

• 1:03:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen.

• 1:03:02Sean Fennessey?

  Not, no, there was no plague in the 1820s. After this tax is imposed upon the people there, there's an uprising and a revolt among commoners who stormed the gates in, in England. The first hour of this movie was electric.

• 1:03:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:03:19Sean Fennessey?

  Electric. And I, I thought I was gonna like have to rebuild the episode to be like, we have to start with the uprising.

• 1:03:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:03:26Sean Fennessey?

  Because it was Paul Greengrass doing shaky cam digital photography, Bourne style action, but in the 1300s with Andrew Garfield and Cosmo Jarvis destroying people. And I was so into it and so locked in.

• 1:03:42Amanda Dobbins?

  And Garfield was doing the action sequences?

• 1:03:45Sean Fennessey?

  And he is this movie's superpower because he's such a brilliant actor and he, I just believe everything he does. I just think he's the best. And I thought he was great in this. He plays a character named Plowman because he is the common person and he is just, he's but a plowman.

• 1:03:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Much like yourself.

• 1:03:59Sean Fennessey?

  That's right. Exactly. I'm an avatar for, for the peasants. And I really was really, really enjoying it. And I found it very credible and very fast moving. The pace, the, the moment from like, okay, something terrible, like this poor person has encountered attacks in this big huddle of people and they are just rejecting it instantaneously. And that is leading to various groups from around England finding each other from various townships and, and connecting and, and storming England. Two things happened. Once the bigger groups start to come together, tremendous amount of one of your least favorite things, CGI overhead shots of big crowds and castles.

• 1:04:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, no.

• 1:04:40Sean Fennessey?

  That looked so bad. In a movie that looked so good. It was like, it was like so up close and with great production design and they fucking ruined it by doing that.

• 1:04:49Amanda Dobbins?

  The crowd thing is a true epidemic. I have not seen one example of a CGI crowd that works.

• 1:04:56Sean Fennessey?

  It's so bad.

• 1:04:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Get it out of your movie. If it's in your treatment, write another scene.

• 1:05:01Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think they needed it.

• 1:05:02Amanda Dobbins?

  There is no company that has mastered the digital crowd. It doesn't exist.

• 1:05:07Sean Fennessey?

  It's so bad because, you know, I understand why they did it because they're trying to call back to these films from the sixties and seventies where they could have put 3,000, 5,000 extras in a scene and they can't afford to do it anymore, right? It's too expensive. It's too hard structurally. I understand why it happened, but because of the way that Greengrass makes movies, he's so good at everything being right in your face. We don't even need the scale to feel the effect of the story. So I felt, I felt that was a huge, huge error in the movie and it really pulled me right out of a movie I was loving. And then secondarily, I think there were some just huge third act problems with how they communicated the ultimate results. The Robin Hood thing I think is overstated.

• 1:05:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:05:44Sean Fennessey?

  There is, you can certainly read it that way without spoiling anything.

• 1:05:48Amanda Dobbins?

  But he doesn't say, my name is Robin?

• 1:05:50Sean Fennessey?

  He does not say, I'm a cartoon fox and I'm here to romance.

• 1:05:54Amanda Dobbins?

  He doesn't do Robin Hood and Little John walking through the forest?

• 1:05:57Sean Fennessey?

  There's no Friar Tuck. There's no Maid Marian.

• 1:05:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Is he stealing from the rich and giving to the poor?

• 1:06:00Sean Fennessey?

  Not exactly.

• 1:06:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:06:02Sean Fennessey?

  It's not really like that.

• 1:06:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I support.

• 1:06:04Sean Fennessey?

  Robin Hood is not a real person, right? He's a legend. But there are components of this story that have some reflections of Robin Hood.

• 1:06:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:06:13Sean Fennessey?

  Man, there was some good stuff in it, you know? Greengrass is super talented and he's singular. He has a real style that is his own style that I really respect. And I will always go see a movie like this over whatever IP garbage, like 10 out of 10 times. I think there's a lot to recommend about the movie, but it bummed me out and it kind of lost the thread. Okay. I just wanted to get that off my chest. Um, let's talk about Hope.

• 1:06:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:06:35Sean Fennessey?

  So this is the second biggest movie of the weekend, I would say, behind the movie we'll talk about on Monday, Practical Magic 2. Hope is the new South Korean sci-fi action extravaganza from Na Hyeong Jin. It's Na Hyeong Jin's first movie in like 10 years. It has a fascinating cast. Hoang John Min, Zoh In Sung, who I just saw in Possible Love, Jung Ho Yoon, and then Taylor Russell, Alicia Vikander and Michael Fassbender.

• 1:07:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:07:03Sean Fennessey?

  In very interesting parts. Now, we did talk about this movie when we saw it at the Cannes Film Festival.

• 1:07:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, we were at the premiere.

• 1:07:08Sean Fennessey?

  We were at the premiere. Um, the logline of the movie is a police chief and a policewoman and a group of hunters try to track down and kill a mysterious creature that's laying waste to a Korean village. Now, the film takes place in what looks like already a post-apocalyptic South Korean village. It looks like we have, there's already been pestilence or, or, or some sort of plague or just a general kind of degradation of society. In the first hour of the movie, we spend a lot of time in this world and we just follow along with a handful of characters who are, we know something is wrong, but we don't know what it is. And that sequence of the movie is some of the best stuff I've seen in a movie this year.

• 1:07:51Amanda Dobbins?

  It is, it's almost an hour chase sequence where you can't see what is, you know, what they're running from.

• 1:08:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:08:01Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and then, as you said, it kind of, it shows you the whole world and how this world has broken down. And you're just following a group of survivors who are trying to use the rules of the world that they know very well to not be caught by this thing. And it's, you know, it's very implied. You don't see the monster. It's, and it, and it goes on for like an hour. When we saw it at the premiere, when the sequence finally ended, the entire theater broke into applause.

• 1:08:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:08:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Because it really is so, uh, it announces itself so, in such an exciting way. And the power of suggestion is very effective. And then.

• 1:08:39Sean Fennessey?

  And then something really terrible happens. And it really changes, I think, a lot of people's relationships to the movie and mine as well. I will generally recommend this movie because I think it's a lot of fun.

• 1:08:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Sean Fennessey?

  However. The creatures that the characters are trying to escape from start to appear in the movie. One in particular in that, the end of that first act. And the CGI is terrible. And this is the most expensive South Korean movie ever made.

• 1:09:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Sean Fennessey?

  And it's the biggest scale movie ever made. And it's a movie that aspires to Spielberg, Cameron, Michael Bay, Peter Jackson. It's in that lineage of, you know, a ragtag group of people fighting a big bad that requires CGI. But the CGI is so bad that the movie at times feels laughable after feeling so profoundly exciting. Do you agree with me about this?

• 1:09:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, it's incredibly silly, to the point that when we saw it in Cannes, everyone walked and said, okay, so the CGI isn't finished? Like that they're still working on this? The other, the other twist in that CGI, and there are mild spoilers here. But, you know, you watch this first 45, 50 minutes, it's so thrilling. And you do also know that at some point, Alicia Vikander and Michael Fassbender and Taylor Russell are going to show up in the movie. And so you're, you're like very much, it's, it's not quite first person shooter vibes, but you're, you're very much on the ride with these people. And in the back of your head, you're thinking, okay, and then the world's going to expand and we're going to see what's going on.

• 1:10:11Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, how are you bringing Alicia Vikander and Michael Fassbender and Taylor Russell into this? Are they like scientists? What's going on? And it sets up like the expectation of this sweeping, really exciting, you know, action drama. And again, spoiler alert, they're the aliens. So, and it, and they're just in terrible CGI. And if you like squint really hard, once you realize it, you're like, oh, that is my, those are Michael Fassbender's eyes, sort of. I get it.

• 1:10:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:10:42Amanda Dobbins?

  And so it's the crushing realization, both that these are, the silly bugs are all you're going to get. And also that that's all you're going to get from the movie, that it's not going any further than this world.

• 1:10:55Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 1:10:56Amanda Dobbins?

  And or this particular village.

• 1:10:58Sean Fennessey?

  I, now I'll say, I, I found the CGI and the utilization of those characters to be not very strong. I do think it sort of redeems itself at the end of the film because there was another chase sequence on a highway that is again, that features a car and a horse and the creatures.

• 1:11:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Sean Fennessey?

  It is again, like mind blowing, practical filmmaking with, with, with what is happening on the car and the horse. Like I genuinely, as somebody who really admires those like big train set kinds of movies and the, what it takes to accomplish that stuff, I think it is like world-class action. It's just that the, the frame of the story is so dumb at this point. And you're so taken out of it by the CGI, by the utilization of those actors, that it's, this movie is such a crazy mixed bag. Like it's totally worth going to the movies to see it with a little bit of lowered expectations and then you'll have a fun time, I think.

• 1:11:49Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, that's the other thing is that we did see it and it was in competition at Cannes. We like got dressed up, you were in your tux again for like the world premiere. And we were sort of jockeying for these tickets because there was, you know, kind of buzz the week before, like, oh, maybe that's the Palme d'Or.

• 1:12:05Sean Fennessey?

  Winter, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Not very respected. He's made like serial killer movies and some, some, you know, supernatural dramas. So, yeah.

• 1:12:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And so on the one hand, it's hilarious and amazing and a great pick that this was in competition at Cannes.

• 1:12:19Sean Fennessey?

  It was a fun night.

• 1:12:20Amanda Dobbins?

  It's, it's very fun, but we were expecting something very different.

• 1:12:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:24Amanda Dobbins?

  And I think for the person who's just going to the movies on the weekend in September and you want like a, a very fun creature movie, you'll really like it.

• 1:12:33Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. I think it's pretty much effective as that. It is two hours and 40 minutes.

• 1:12:37Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true. It's really.

• 1:12:38Sean Fennessey?

  That's long.

• 1:12:39Amanda Dobbins?

  It's really long.

• 1:12:39Sean Fennessey?

  It's really long.

• 1:12:40Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and it's also just setting up the next one. You know, you're just like, oh.

• 1:12:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And it seems like it's done well overseas, but maybe not, has not been. I actually don't, I don't want to, I don't want to comment on the box office because I'm not totally sure what it is. But a fascinating experiment. And I think it's cool that Neon is putting it like on 1500 screens or something and encouraging. To me, this is like completely the product of the incredible success of a movie like Parasite, that a film like this can and should play in the US at scale.

• 1:13:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Sean Fennessey?

  Even though it has some flaws, I do think it's a lot of fun.

• 1:13:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Sean Fennessey?

  Did you watch May Day?

• 1:13:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I sure did. I watched it on the plane.

• 1:13:15Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. So I'm actually really glad you did because I need you to help me with this one. So.

• 1:13:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's be honest, I watched it on the plane on the way home.

• 1:13:22Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:13:22Amanda Dobbins?

  24 hour travel day. Did I sleep through part of it? I did.

• 1:13:25Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:13:26Amanda Dobbins?

  But I was back up. I saw the ending. I like, I, I, you know, I checked through the boxes, but I have to be very honest. This is again, this is a, a straight to Apple film starring Ryan Reynolds and Kenneth Branagh that is somehow like an even more jingoistic parody of Top Gun.

• 1:13:43Sean Fennessey?

  You just, you nailed it.

• 1:13:44Amanda Dobbins?

  It's, it's.

• 1:13:45Sean Fennessey?

  I don't understand. So it's, it's from John Francis Daly and Jonathan Goldstein, who made Game Night and the most recent Dungeons and Dragons film. Movies I like.

• 1:13:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Game Night, one of the great unrated comedies.

• 1:13:57Sean Fennessey?

  Incredible movie.

• 1:13:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Of the last 25 years.

• 1:13:59Sean Fennessey?

  This one, I, I don't really get it. So when a US Navy pilot on a top secret mission during the Cold War gets trapped behind enemy lines, his only chance of survival is to form an alliance with an eccentric ex-KGB agent. So Reynolds is the pilot, Branagh is the ex-KGB agent. Nobody loves doing a bizarre European Russian accent like Kenneth Branagh. The key here is that the Branagh character is obsessed with the American culture.

• 1:14:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:22Sean Fennessey?

  And is also, has some regrets about his time spent in the KGB. So he is willing to help this pilot who has crash landed.

• 1:14:31Sean Fennessey?

  What, like, why?

• 1:14:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Really, really tough.

• 1:14:33Sean Fennessey?

  Why?

• 1:14:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I, I noted that one of the companies, production companies is Skydance.

• 1:14:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:40Amanda Dobbins?

  So, you know, planes, Top Gun, and, and Top Gun is like explicit.

• 1:14:44Sean Fennessey?

  Literally in the movie, yes.

• 1:14:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, it's not just, oh, this is a lot like Top Gun. Like they do actually make callbacks to the movie and that, and Kenneth Branagh's character loves the movie and, you know, there are lots of Goose references. So I'm sure that has something to do with it. I was quite taken aback by the mismatch of tone between like earnest, American exceptionalism and Ryan Gosling. I'm, excuse me, and I'm sorry, Ryan, though, though, watch it.

• 1:15:15Sean Fennessey?

  Tells you a lot about where Ryan Gosling is at that you would ever consider.

• 1:15:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And Ryan Reynolds is jokey, sarcastic, quirky, but he's also trying to be a CIA. I'm sorry, he's a Navy SEAL, I guess. He's, he's, he's in the Navy.

• 1:15:32Sean Fennessey?

  He's the Navy pilot.

• 1:15:33Amanda Dobbins?

  He's a Navy pilot.

• 1:15:34Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Amanda Dobbins?

  And so he's both trying to be sarcastic, but also communicate to you that he believes in America, which like he says a lot. It's, and I, I kept being like, wait, so is this earnest?

• 1:15:48Sean Fennessey?

  I couldn't figure out what the hell the point of this movie was. Like, why did anybody want to make this movie?

• 1:15:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I don't know. I mean.

• 1:15:54Sean Fennessey?

  I try to not, I try to not do that with movies, but like, I genuinely was like, so we're like glossing, like glazing 80s Top Gun culture.

• 1:16:03Amanda Dobbins?

  There's a little bit of, you know, listen, I like Hunter x Red October. I like 2010 salt on like Jack and Lucas over there. But, um, people like spy thrillers.

• 1:16:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:15Amanda Dobbins?

  And so maybe you want to make a, a spy thriller that's a little lighter, but.

• 1:16:21Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, maybe if it was a different actor, I'd have a slightly different perspective on it. But in.

• 1:16:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Very confusing.

• 1:16:25Sean Fennessey?

  Everything with Reynolds is inherently kind of jokey.

• 1:16:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Sean Fennessey?

  Right? Because his acting tone is very jokey.

• 1:16:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:16:30Sean Fennessey?

  And he's, his character is in very dangerous circumstances here, but there's always that kind of slight smarm that comes with a lot of his roles. Branagh is having fun and like whatever he's doing in the action sequences, the fight sequences is pretty fun. It's not, it's not an unwatchable movie or anything, but I think the actual like, it's a big scale, expensive film that went straight to streaming.

• 1:16:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Sean Fennessey?

  With one of the 10 biggest movie stars in the world? Like what, what is this?

• 1:16:54Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. Once again, I do not know. And I don't know why Apple needs to do this because they're going to get, you know, 4,000 of our dollars for their little flip phones.

• 1:17:02Sean Fennessey?

  That's true. Yeah. But I mean.

• 1:17:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Damn, I gotta start saving. This is a tough break for me.

• 1:17:07Sean Fennessey?

  To your point, I don't know if you need a flip phone. It seems like the phone that you have is working just fine.

• 1:17:13Sean Fennessey?

  Why isn't this movie in movie theaters then? It's got big action, it's got notable people.

• 1:17:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Because they don't need it.

• 1:17:18Sean Fennessey?

  What does, what does they don't need it mean?

• 1:17:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. I don't know why Apple and Amazon are making movies. Like, I really don't.

• 1:17:24Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I, I welcome more movies.

• 1:17:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, but not these.

• 1:17:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, okay. All right. Well, let's talk about another movie that I'm completely mystified by. I caught up with One Night Only. Now, you and Juliette did a great episode of the show. I did not listen to the one night only section of that episode because I didn't want any of the movies spoiled for me. I knew I would watch it at some point. As I said, I had this in my movie fantasy league. I had some, some interest in it. When it came out, I was out of town, so I watched it on VOD last night. Started by Will Glock, best known probably for anyone but you at this point.

• 1:17:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Sean Fennessey?

  And an easy A. Screenplay by Travis Braun, it stars Monica Barbaro, Callan Turner, Maya Hawke, Molly Ringwald, LeVar Burton. And as many people know, it's a, this is the rom-com about the one night only that you can have premarital sex.

• 1:18:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's the, it's the sex purge.

• 1:18:06Sean Fennessey?

  The sex purge. Um, I thought this was horrible.

• 1:18:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Really?

• 1:18:14Sean Fennessey?

  Horrible.

• 1:18:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Did you laugh?

• 1:18:16Sean Fennessey?

  Not even a little bit.

• 1:18:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Not even a little bit. So that's, that's the thing is that Juliette and I both laughed a lot. I think that this movie just like does not work. I think it's an insurmountable premise that, and it does not surround it.

• 1:18:28Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, here, oh, here's my major issue. And I thought about it with respect to the episode that you guys did. This is a sex comedy, not a rom com, but it's pretending like it's a rom com.

• 1:18:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:18:37Sean Fennessey?

  There's a huge difference between those two kinds of movies.

• 1:18:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Correct. But it's also a sex movie without sex. And they took all the sex out.

• 1:18:43Sean Fennessey?

  That's my point. I mean,

• 1:18:45Amanda Dobbins?

  You saw Will Gluck gave interviews afterwards being like, well, the tests and the children don't want sex. Hey, boys.

• 1:18:50Sean Fennessey?

  The most overblown thing of all time. So fucking annoying.

• 1:18:54Amanda Dobbins?

  That you don't want, that you, your generation doesn't want.

• 1:18:56Sean Fennessey?

  People like to fuck.

• 1:18:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:58Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, there's sex scenes in Anyone But You.

• 1:19:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Everyone be safe, but good job.

• 1:19:03Sean Fennessey?

  Like Anyone But You, Will Gluck made it as a huge hit. There's a shower scene in the fucking movie.

• 1:19:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't remember.

• 1:19:08Sean Fennessey?

  How is the takeaway in the sex comedy not to have any sex?

• 1:19:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I have absolutely no idea.

• 1:19:13Sean Fennessey?

  This is mystifying. This is straight up like absolute malpractice at every level.

• 1:19:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, can I, can we just, just go into this? This is a movie about how people can't have sex because the federal government has outlawed sex and implanted, premarital sex and implanted chips into everybody's bodies.

• 1:19:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:19:33Amanda Dobbins?

  And then they're just like, yeah, let's go, you know, let's make some jokes about where to get a condom.

• 1:19:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Amanda Dobbins?

  I was kind of like, I, I, you know,

• 1:19:40Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. The premise is completely unexplored. It's pure science fiction. I, I don't, I don't need that movie to be like a, a, you know, a chilling

• 1:19:50Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't want it.

• 1:19:51Sean Fennessey?

  rebuttal of fascism. Like,

• 1:19:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't want it to be the Handmaid's Tale. And I stopped watching The Handmaid's Tale because, you know, I don't watch five seasons of anything, but also not a great hang. But there, but there just is something about, I mean, The Sex Purge is a great elevator pitch and like a funny thing.

• 1:20:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:20:07Amanda Dobbins?

  And you would have thought that they would have been able to market more with it, but I don't know if there's a, a good a version of this movie. Like, I don't know if it actually is a possible, a premise that you can carry out.

• 1:20:20Sean Fennessey?

  I think you might be right. I, I think I was also distracted by just the like wave of Gen Z, young millennials signifiers to the audience to tell you like how cool this movie is. It's like multiple King Princess songs. King Princess plays one of the friends in the movie. You've got Julia Fox, you've got Maya Hawke, you've got Daniel Craig's daughter at one point.

• 1:20:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:40Sean Fennessey?

  You've got, uh, Ziwei and, uh, Esti Hyam as the bouncers at the club. Like you've got all, like all the,

• 1:20:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Nicholas Braun is there for five seconds, which like take a vacation.

• 1:20:51Sean Fennessey?

  Drops, like everything in the movie is so like, hey, you know about this young person? Hey, hey, hey, hey.

• 1:20:56Amanda Dobbins?

  The needle drops were at least better than, normally the needle drops in these movies are just the most terrible.

• 1:21:04Sean Fennessey?

  I just thought they sounded like,

• 1:21:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Not even Sara Bareilles.

• 1:21:06Sean Fennessey?

  They sounded like all the needle drops in the dating shows on Netflix that Eileen likes to watch, where I'm just like the most banal, like light fizzy pop.

• 1:21:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Only You is a great song. Take it back.

• 1:21:17Sean Fennessey?

  That, well, that's an old song. That's the Yazu song. That's, yeah, that's always good. Yeah. Monica Barbour, wonderful singer. I, I would throw it all away for her today.

• 1:21:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Of course.

• 1:21:24Sean Fennessey?

  Stunning.

• 1:21:25Amanda Dobbins?

  She's so,

• 1:21:26Sean Fennessey?

  Stunning and a good actor. And you know, the other thing I thought a lot about When Harry Met Sally, I was watching this movie because I was like, When Harry Met Sally, obviously one of the, probably the single greatest movie of this kind ever made.

• 1:21:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Agreed.

• 1:21:36Sean Fennessey?

  That movie looks so good. The way it's shot, the production design, the costumes, the vibe of that movie is magical.

• 1:21:44Amanda Dobbins?

  The score.

• 1:21:44Sean Fennessey?

  The music, yes. Everything about that movie, you've got that great Nora Ephron script, you've got Rob Reiner right in his zone and perfect performances from those two leads. Now, it's unfair to hold a movie like this to the absolute platinum standard of a certain kind of genre, but it's not as though what's accomplished in When Harry Met Sally is impossible. It just requires more time, effort, money and thought.

• 1:22:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Sean, I say this on every single episode, every single time we talk about romantic comedies. They just, they won't spend the time and money.

• 1:22:12Sean Fennessey?

  This looks like a shitty streaming service, a service show. I don't understand it. The other, and the other thing,

• 1:22:17Amanda Dobbins?

  At least they filmed in New York.

• 1:22:18Sean Fennessey?

  Listen, yeah, this is important.

• 1:22:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:19Sean Fennessey?

  This is really important.

• 1:22:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:22Sean Fennessey?

  Callum Turner, I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so.

• 1:22:25Amanda Dobbins?

  You, you saw the running, right?

• 1:22:26Sean Fennessey?

  Sure.

• 1:22:27Amanda Dobbins?

  The running. Um, I,

• 1:22:29Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think so, Amanda.

• 1:22:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen, he's not going to get bond, it sounds like, which is tough.

• 1:22:35Amanda Dobbins?

  He's got Dua Lipa, so that's good for him. Listen, he, one thing that Juliette and I identified, which I do think is true, is that he has the really good rom com reaction face. Once she's singing and they cut to him and he's smiling at her.

• 1:22:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Amanda Dobbins?

  And, you know, I found myself in that moment being like, you know, so, and that's something that you just can't replicate. And it does, they have chemistry.

• 1:22:57Sean Fennessey?

  I disagree.

• 1:22:58Amanda Dobbins?

  So little bit.

• 1:22:58Sean Fennessey?

  She has chemistry with a telephone pole.

• 1:23:00Amanda Dobbins?

  She's so great. Yeah. She's wonderful and he is pretty cute. I, I, listen, had notes on the accent, which was pretty tough.

• 1:23:08Sean Fennessey?

  Another issue.

• 1:23:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, the running is not bond worthy.

• 1:23:11Sean Fennessey?

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And, you know, why isn't he just British? I mean, then they have to get into like immigration status and the bio chips and all sorts of stuff, which is again, you don't want to get into, listen, you should listen, we really got, I have a lot of questions about how this all works.

• 1:23:25Sean Fennessey?

  Listen to it, yeah.

• 1:23:26Amanda Dobbins?

  It's like, how are they tracking that you're using a condom? You know, which is a point, like, what is that sensor about? Like, there's just nothing going, no information on masturbation, no information on hand jobs.

• 1:23:39Sean Fennessey?

  Is masturbation allowed?

• 1:23:40Amanda Dobbins?

  We don't know. When they're at the, um, when they're at the police office, which I thought was the single worst, uh, scene in the movie.

• 1:23:48Sean Fennessey?

  Pretty rough.

• 1:23:49Amanda Dobbins?

  And like, you know, clearly noted and people being like, you do, you need to acknowledge this, which like, you do, but it, it just feels added on to the script. Anyway, on the background, there's a sign of, you know, illustrations of acts that are allowed. So oral sex is depicted. That's out. Nothing about hand jobs.

• 1:24:09Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:24:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't see it.

• 1:24:10Sean Fennessey?

  You would just be giving handies every day?

• 1:24:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it's just like, are people doing that? You know, why is everyone not getting married immediately? We don't like explore what's going on with divorce.

• 1:24:18Sean Fennessey?

  Say it, overrated. Handies, it's just not.

• 1:24:20Amanda Dobbins?

  I think, I think that that's true, but it's, listen, like, aren't you trying to survive?

• 1:24:25Sean Fennessey?

  You know, like, come on.

• 1:24:27Sean Fennessey?

  Let's be real. Callum Turner getting a handjob every day?

• 1:24:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, sure, but, but also like think about the reverse for a second. You're just, you're cutting out like a hole.

• 1:24:34Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 1:24:35Amanda Dobbins?

  So, but they don't specify that. People are not ready at 7:00 PM when the alarm goes off. You know, they're still hanging out. And I'm like, why aren't you just at home? Counting down, trying to maximize the amount of time.

• 1:24:49Sean Fennessey?

  Good note. Very good note.

• 1:24:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Again, like, why aren't we marrying and then getting divorced?

• 1:24:56Sean Fennessey?

  One question I had, maybe you brought this up.

• 1:24:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:58Sean Fennessey?

  If you get married, can you cheat with other people?

• 1:25:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Again, we talked about that. It's not specified, but that seems like a, exactly.

• 1:25:05Sean Fennessey?

  Because you've got your marriage certificate?

• 1:25:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. But, you know, the,

• 1:25:08Sean Fennessey?

  Because then you just marry a friend and then just go gallivant.

• 1:25:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Totally.

• 1:25:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And so the, the condom thing suggests that there is like the bio sensor element has like some DNA elements to it, which again, is just really upsetting.

• 1:25:21Sean Fennessey?

  It's practically Blade Runner.

• 1:25:24Amanda Dobbins?

  But so, nothing is explored that I like, want to know about.

• 1:25:27Sean Fennessey?

  This is like, you know how Bill has said for years, there should be like the sports consulting firm that he has for, for Hollywood, like,

• 1:25:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:35Sean Fennessey?

  This is our business, you know, like,

• 1:25:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Thousand percent.

• 1:25:38Sean Fennessey?

  You want to integrate rom coms and science fiction into a movie? This is the duo that can help you. Like, we should have gotten a phone call to walk through some of these ideas. I, what a misfire. Crazy.

• 1:25:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. It really, really doesn't work. I didn't have a bad time watching it.

• 1:25:51Sean Fennessey?

  I'm, I'm happy. I know you don't get a lot of these movies.

• 1:25:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Plus, I like it, you know, they're, they're cute also. So both of them.

• 1:25:59Speaker 05

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• 1:27:20Sean Fennessey?

  Idiots. I can't believe you watched Idiots. How about you? Did you watch it on the plane?

• 1:27:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I did.

• 1:27:23Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. So this is the new movie from Macon Blair, wrote and directed. It stars Dave Franco, O'Shea Jackson, Mason, is it Thames or Thames?

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  I believe it's Thames.

• 1:27:33Sean Fennessey?

  Thames.

• 1:27:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:27:34Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, Kieran Shipka, Nicholas Braun, recurring, and Peter Dinklage. Uh, it's about two rock bottom drivers transporting a wealthy teen to rehab, but their simple job spirals into a chaotic journey of drugs, danger, and crime as their passenger derails their plans. What'd you think of this one?

• 1:27:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I wanted it to be funnier.

• 1:27:48Sean Fennessey?

  Me too.

• 1:27:48Amanda Dobbins?

  I thought it was, it, I expected it to be less of a movie and more of a comedy, given the people involved, specifically O'Shea Jackson Jr. and Dave Franco.

• 1:27:57Sean Fennessey?

  Did you see the trailer? It was a very funny trailer. So I think it sold me hard on it being what you're describing.

• 1:28:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and also, like, once you're doing Midnight Run, you know?

• 1:28:04Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:05Amanda Dobbins?

  It's, uh, those are big shoes to fill, but, so it wasn't as funny. And, and I didn't think, like, the performances of those two people, who I think are hilarious, were as funny.

• 1:28:15Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 1:28:15Amanda Dobbins?

  It was more of a movie than I think, I, you know? It, it's not that it doesn't work. It's just trying to be something different than I thought it was gonna be.

• 1:28:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I think it's really, actually, ultimately, more of the last detail than it is, uh, Midnight Run, because of the, like, transporting someone against their will, to some extent. Um, and I, yeah, I really wanted this to be a little bit better, too. It's got a couple of really funny moments. There's some funny reveals, but it didn't, it didn't totally click. This was a Sundance movie that was originally called Shitheads, and they renamed it. I had a question for you.

• 1:28:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:52Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think that movies should have, it should be okay for movies to have expletives in the title?

• 1:28:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm okay with it, but then you can't even curse on Instagram still. So what are we doing?

• 1:29:02Sean Fennessey?

  What do you mean, you can't curse on Instagram?

• 1:29:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Right? Don't you have to bleep it out?

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  You don't have to, but typically the algorithm takes it, takes it down more.

• 1:29:09Sean Fennessey?

  I had no idea.

• 1:29:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. We live in Mayday's America, you know, so...

• 1:29:13Sean Fennessey?

  Mayday's America. You're absolutely right. And I won't argue with you. Okay, uh, did I, did I talk at you about Buddy?

• 1:29:22Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think so. I don't remember it.

• 1:29:25Sean Fennessey?

  Do you know what it is?

• 1:29:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I know that people have taken their children to it, thinking it's a children's movie.

• 1:29:31Sean Fennessey?

  Uh-huh, and that would be a huge mistake.

• 1:29:32Amanda Dobbins?

  And it's not. Yeah, I, I read that they were mad, you know?

• 1:29:35Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's a testimony to the very successful marketing campaign of this movie. This movie is now turning out to be, I think, in that conversation, not at the same box office level, but in that same conversation, with backrooms, with obsession, with, uh, with, um, the Markiplier movie, like, where independent horror with a really strong hook

• 1:29:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:59Sean Fennessey?

  can do really, really well. I guess you could say Terrifier kinda laid some of the groundwork for this. Buddy is basically, what if a Barney the Dinosaur-esque children's giant puppet host

• 1:30:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:30:11Sean Fennessey?

  was actually deranged, malevolent, et cetera, et cetera?

• 1:30:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, right, right, right. Um, we did talk about this a little bit, because I, we talked about the Barney movie that Daniel Kaluuya is, like, allegedly gonna make at some point.

• 1:30:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:30:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Which seems to me would be the same thing.

• 1:30:27Sean Fennessey?

  I'm just gonna bring this movie up again to you, because I mentioned Casper Kelly, who made Too Many Cooks and made the Adult Swim Yule Log movies, which were both really, really funny and really clever, and these kind of postmodern explorations of old, you know, 80s and 90s pop culture. This is the same thing. This is like in his wheelhouse. He didn't, I guess he didn't originally write this movie, but rewrote it. Kristen Miladi is in the movie, Delaney Quinn, the young actress is in the movie. And then there's a lot of famous people who do voices, Patton Oswalt, uh, Michael Shannon, Topher Grace, Keegan-Michael Key.

• 1:31:00Sean Fennessey?

  The first half of the movie, where it's just we're inside the world of Buddy, we're like inside the show, they basically recreated the show

• 1:31:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:08Sean Fennessey?

  as Buddy, this orange unicorn. It's, it's becoming, it's, one kid doesn't wanna do the things that Buddy wants to do.

• 1:31:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:31:17Sean Fennessey?

  And this kid

• 1:31:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Right on.

• 1:31:19Sean Fennessey?

  is, he's an outsider, he's a, he's a rebel. And he's like, "I don't wanna read today, Buddy. I don't wanna go do this activities today, Buddy." And he keeps going off to the side. And this sort of breaks something in Buddy's psychology.

• 1:31:31Sean Fennessey?

  And he cracks.

• 1:31:32Amanda Dobbins?

  This is a great idea.

• 1:31:32Sean Fennessey?

  It's a great idea. And the first 40 minutes, when he loses it, when it, like, kinda shatters everything, and he kills this kid.

• 1:31:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay. Yeah.

• 1:31:42Sean Fennessey?

  We don't see the murder, but it's very clear what's happened.

• 1:31:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:31:46Sean Fennessey?

  All of that stuff inside of the show, fantastic. Perfectly executed, recreating a show from 1994, like, when we were kids, when this stuff was on TV. Every time we're in the world of the puppets, and the, the movie is not just Barney, it has a lot of Peewee's Playhouse in it, which is a movie that I, a TV show that I really love. I thought all that stuff was really smart. The movie's success, though, is really cool, because they never released the full trailer. They only released a series of teasers. The teasers are these, like, very unnerving little segments from the show.

• 1:32:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:16Sean Fennessey?

  And so much so, that my, I was looking at YouTube on my phone, and my daughter came over and looked over my shoulder, as she often does when I'm looking at my phone.

• 1:32:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:24Sean Fennessey?

  And she saw me flip past the Buddy, one of the Buddy teasers.

• 1:32:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:29Sean Fennessey?

  And she said, "I wanna watch that."

• 1:32:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:31Sean Fennessey?

  And we did watch it.

• 1:32:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, no.

• 1:32:32Sean Fennessey?

  Now, it was 30 seconds. Nothing actually bad happened in it, but what it had was ambient, malevolent terror. Sound design.

• 1:32:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:32:45Sean Fennessey?

  An insinuation of violence, nothing depicted.

• 1:32:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:48Sean Fennessey?

  But it was almost like this was her first exposure to hardcore, real scary shit.

• 1:32:53Amanda Dobbins?

  And was she terrified?

• 1:32:54Sean Fennessey?

  Had, didn't clock it at all.

• 1:32:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I think Knox would be the same way.

• 1:32:58Sean Fennessey?

  Clocks nothing. Nothing was wrong. Like, she, like, like, they don't have the language.

• 1:33:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I, I remember this, the, the first year that we took the kids trick-or-treating, and we went back, we went by all the houses that have, like, all the gory setups and the, and like, the plastic, you know, claws coming out of the grave and all these sorts of things. And they didn't know that it was scary.

• 1:33:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And so they just, and, so they didn't know, they're, I think Knox was like, "Ooh, look at that red," you know, 'cause he was learning colors. But the, it's so interesting what we think is scary versus what they respond to. And they haven't learned the language of, like, grown-up terror yet.

• 1:33:37Sean Fennessey?

  It's like you have to get old enough to be scared of something.

• 1:33:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:40Sean Fennessey?

  Which is, I, I just thought was notable, because this movie is using a five-year-old sensibility to make something scary, but five-year-olds don't quite know

• 1:33:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:33:49Sean Fennessey?

  that this should be scary.

• 1:33:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:50Sean Fennessey?

  Anyway, let's talk about the rivals of Amziah King.

• 1:33:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:33:55Sean Fennessey?

  One of the craziest movies of the year.

• 1:33:56Amanda Dobbins?

  It's, I, all I knew that Matthew McConaughey, uh, was, uh, that's all I knew about the movie, was Matthew McConaughey.

• 1:34:03Sean Fennessey?

  So this is, um, the new movie from Andrew Patterson, his first since The Vast of Night, which we've talked about a bunch on the show recently. I think I mentioned it during the Twilight Zone episode. And it stars McConaughey and Angelina Looking Glass, Scott Shepard, Rob Morgan, Tony Ravalori, Kurt Russell. The logline of the movie, if you hasn't, haven't seen it, 'cause it came out last month, "Deep within the backwoods of rural Oklahoma, charismatic and musically gifted Amziah King herds a bluegrass band of misfits while overseeing the premier honey-making operation in town. When his estranged foster daughter unexpectedly returns, Amziah leaps at the possibility to reconnect, reconnect and create a family business." What, what did you think of this? 'Cause you texted me when you saw it. I don't even know if I responded, 'cause I knew we would eventually discuss it on the show.

• 1:34:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I think you said that you were kinda into it for the first half.

• 1:34:49Sean Fennessey?

  Loved the first half.

• 1:34:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I think I did, too, though, again, I did not know that I was going to a film in which Matthew McConaughey, um, makes, like, tends to bees, is it, keeps bees, is a beekeeper in the non-Statham sense, and plays in a, like, praise band? Uh, which I just, which is really what's going on, and that's all he does?

• 1:35:17Sean Fennessey?

  The, the movie stops three different times to just basically do a bluegrass music video, in which Matthew McConaughey performs with a series of actors, Owen Teague, and, you know, many other people. And, uh, it's a choice, it's aggressive, I enjoyed it.

• 1:35:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I was intrigued by it, and, and really, for an hour, it is just honey and him doing his accent and, like, being, you know, the, I think-

• 1:35:41Sean Fennessey?

  And this kind of, like, slaps that gross-out humor a little bit, but isn't it?

• 1:35:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. The, the opening sequence is very funny. There's also a sequence when they have to get rid of bees at a school,

• 1:35:49Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:50Amanda Dobbins?

  which is incredibly funny. Um, and, and he's very engaging. And then it turns into a completely different revenge movie?

• 1:36:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. It's a real, the second half of the movie, something dramatic happens, and it turns into more of a thriller revenge movie.

• 1:36:10Sean Fennessey?

  Where the film sort of refocuses to the Angelina Looking Glass character, who is McConaughey's foster daughter. And I don't know that I've ever really seen this, a choice like that to basically just topple the movie and turn it into its completely different kind of a movie. And for me, the second half of the movie is just not successful.

• 1:36:26Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:36:27Sean Fennessey?

  And it starts to really drag. You start to wonder why you're there. You don't feel invested in the revenge plot. And it really just dropped the rope.

• 1:36:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:36Sean Fennessey?

  Um, I was bummed out.

• 1:36:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, the, the first half is set pieces and it's, it goes beyond goofy, but there is kind of like a joyous slapstick, as you said, anarchy to what's going on, paired with like real sincerity.

• 1:36:54Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, in the performances and in the things that they're talking about. But once it has to take on capitalism, I didn't really know what's going on. Also, we have bees in the wall again. I keep meaning to tell you that.

• 1:37:09Sean Fennessey?

  There's bees in the wall.

• 1:37:09Amanda Dobbins?

  There are more bees on the wall.

• 1:37:11Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's so hot.

• 1:37:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, well, they've been there for a long time. And it's sort of Zach. So there's a room in our house where bees took up residence and they were swarming more outside that time. So first Zach had to be an amateur beekeeper. Then we had to come have the hive removed. This time they're staying inside. Also, do you remember the time when we had bees in a different part of the house, but then they just died and disappeared?

• 1:37:36Sean Fennessey?

  I don't remember the second time now.

• 1:37:37Amanda Dobbins?

  They, they were coming into our room and then dying. And by the time the beekeeper could come, they had moved on. So something's going on with bees in my house. It's a sensitive subject right now.

• 1:37:47Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think you are being haunted, Amityville Horror Style?

• 1:37:51Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I don't. I like bees, swarms of bees do freak me out. Like, I never watched the video of, that the beekeeper sent us of the hive that they removed from our house. We sent it to Chris and Phoebe immediately.

• 1:38:04Sean Fennessey?

  You're afraid of bees?

• 1:38:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, there's something about the visual aspect of.

• 1:38:09Sean Fennessey?

  The hive.

• 1:38:10Amanda Dobbins?

  The hive and all of them together. It's in what's the, what's the phobia of too many small things?

• 1:38:17Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know.

• 1:38:17Amanda Dobbins?

  That kind of underlines a lot of horror design, actually. It's fairly common, but I definitely have that. So I don't like looking at it.

• 1:38:23Sean Fennessey?

  Too many, like a, like a.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  Triphophobia.

• 1:38:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Triphophobia.

• 1:38:26Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, like an army of ants.

• 1:38:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, don't like that. But you know, it can also be like, like a lot of the skin graft and diseases and all the sort of.

• 1:38:34Sean Fennessey?

  For Halloween season, yeah.

• 1:38:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Like a lot of the gross out stuff.

• 1:38:36Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:38:36Amanda Dobbins?

  I think speaks to, which I think like that's, half of people find that very scary. And I'm, I'm one of them. So I don't like that.

• 1:38:44Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:38:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't want to be stung by a bee or a swarm of bees. I mean, listen, like I'm, you know, Generation My Girl, but.

• 1:38:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think I'm being haunted. No, it doesn't feel like a supernatural element. It just seems like they, you know, now, now I got these bees I gotta deal with. Instead, I just don't go in the room of the house, which is not really useful because that's where my desk is.

• 1:39:05Sean Fennessey?

  Well, you don't work, so it's okay. Uh, that's tough about the bees. Sorry about that.

• 1:39:11Amanda Dobbins?

  So that.

• 1:39:11Sean Fennessey?

  All I can hear is Nick Cage screaming, the bees!

• 1:39:14Amanda Dobbins?

  So I was like a little uncomfortable during the second half of it because I was like, oh God, now I got these bees I gotta deal with, you know?

• 1:39:20Sean Fennessey?

  Wow, you're, you're a regular old Zaya King with all these bees. Uh, did you see The Wrong Girls?

• 1:39:27Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:39:27Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, then we don't need to talk about it.

• 1:39:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:39:28Sean Fennessey?

  We'll talk about it after you've seen it. This is the new movie from Dylan Meyer, stars Kristen Stewart.

• 1:39:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:39:33Sean Fennessey?

  Worth discussing, not, not sure if it's worth recommending. Uh, any other closing thoughts?

• 1:39:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Except you've asked me to see it, so I will.

• 1:39:39Sean Fennessey?

  Well.

• 1:39:40Amanda Dobbins?

  And Dylan Meyer is Kristen Stewart's wife.

• 1:39:42Sean Fennessey?

  That's correct.

• 1:39:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, so I, I mean, I, I love stories like this.

• 1:39:45Sean Fennessey?

  It, yes, and there's, there's much to discuss.

• 1:39:48Amanda Dobbins?

  That's cool.

• 1:39:48Sean Fennessey?

  Uh.

• 1:39:49Amanda Dobbins?

  I'll see it. I just, I don't know if you've heard, but I've been in Italy.

• 1:39:52Sean Fennessey?

  I have heard, you know, I feel like I'm really good at going to see a lot of movies. It's one of my skills. And there's still a ton of movies that I haven't seen. Like for this episode, I was hoping to have seen Insidious: Out of the Further, which was actually also a pretty solid hit at the end of the summer. I was hoping that you were gonna see Finding Emily, which I don't think you've seen yet, right?

• 1:40:10Amanda Dobbins?

  No, and I was even at the, at Century City, seeing a not very good movie while one of the Emily screenings was happening for Finding Emily, where they did a stunt where only Emily's.

• 1:40:23Sean Fennessey?

  I was there as well.

• 1:40:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:40:24Amanda Dobbins?

  What movie did we see?

• 1:40:25Sean Fennessey?

  I don't remember.

• 1:40:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:40:28Sean Fennessey?

  An August film of some, of summer.

• 1:40:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm sure we podcasted about it.

• 1:40:32Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, Fall 2, Dead Point. Did you ever see Fall? Fall 1?

• 1:40:37Amanda Dobbins?

  This is the one where they climb the pole and then can you climb Jacob Elordi and yada, yada. So no, I never saw it, but it lives on in my mind.

• 1:40:43Sean Fennessey?

  I like the original Fall.

• 1:40:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:45Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, By Any Means, the Mark Wahlberg, Yahya Abdul Latine film from Paramount.

• 1:40:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Featuring Diane Warren's upcoming Oscar nominated original song, By Any Means.

• 1:40:54Sean Fennessey?

  Haven't seen that. I'd like to see it. Uh, I meant to watch the two Angel Studios films.

• 1:40:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:40:59Sean Fennessey?

  Young Washington and The Brink of War.

• 1:41:01Amanda Dobbins?

  I have famously seen Young Washington.

• 1:41:03Sean Fennessey?

  You have? Uh, The Brink of War. Should we do a Reagan, Gorbachev, like a whole podcast?

• 1:41:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, oh, that one, I was kinda interested.

• 1:41:13Sean Fennessey?

  Jeff Daniels?

• 1:41:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it looked terrible.

• 1:41:15Sean Fennessey?

  It's probably terrible.

• 1:41:16Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, and it probably, I mean, it's probably Mayday core, but.

• 1:41:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, but like with no action. I mean, it, so Daniels is Reagan, Jared Harris is Gorbachev, J.K. Simmons is George Shultz, back in the news after the Elizabeth Holmes recurrence.

• 1:41:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Don't tell me anymore. Guys, I, like, I sent an email this morning.

• 1:41:35Sean Fennessey?

  Nancy Reagan?

• 1:41:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Tell me.

• 1:41:37Sean Fennessey?

  Hope Davis.

• 1:41:38Amanda Dobbins?

  I didn't know that because I saw the trailer. Listen, I'm glad people are getting work.

• 1:41:43Sean Fennessey?

  Pretty good, pretty good. I'm gonna watch The Brink of War and I'm gonna watch it.

• 1:41:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I still need to see the Angel Studios film Drummer Boy.

• 1:41:51Sean Fennessey?

  That's not out yet.

• 1:41:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Or The Drummer, which is, you know, has the drummer boy soundtrack in it.

• 1:41:55Sean Fennessey?

  Isn't that a Christmas celebration movie?

• 1:41:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, it's really, it's just about someone who drums, like in the regiment.

• 1:42:00Sean Fennessey?

  In the Revolutionary War.

• 1:42:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. So I don't know whether the, this particular battle was fought at Christmas.

• 1:42:05Sean Fennessey?

  You see your son in that character? Noted drummer, your son?

• 1:42:08Amanda Dobbins?

  It's because they did the Grey's Anatomy version of the drummer boy for the, for the trailer.

• 1:42:15Sean Fennessey?

  Oh.

• 1:42:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it just, it was, I laughed out loud.

• 1:42:18Sean Fennessey?

  Like a mournful pop cover of Little Drummer Boy?

• 1:42:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:42:21Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, interesting. Um, great. Hey, great chat. Great to have you back. Everything good?

• 1:42:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Thanks so much. Yeah, doing great.

• 1:42:29Sean Fennessey?

  What are we doing next week again? Oh, we gotta talk about Practical Magic 2.

• 1:42:31Amanda Dobbins?

  And can we also add a ways us don't look back in anger to it?

• 1:42:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:42:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Because.

• 1:42:37Sean Fennessey?

  Because Yasi will be on the episode and I'm seeing it tomorrow.

• 1:42:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:42:40Sean Fennessey?

  So.

• 1:42:40Amanda Dobbins?

  That's very exciting.

• 1:42:41Sean Fennessey?

  That we will do all, we will do Practical Magic 2. We'll talk about Sandy. I want to talk about Sandy. I want to talk about.

• 1:42:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, Sandra Bullock. It's like Hurricane Sandy?

• 1:42:50Sean Fennessey?

  No, no, Sandra Bullock. I want to talk about, because I, I wanted to do Hall of Fame and then I was looking at the filmography and I'm like, Hall of Fame?

• 1:42:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know if I can do that.

• 1:42:57Amanda Dobbins?

  It's been a long time.

• 1:42:57Sean Fennessey?

  It's, yeah, but, and what I want to do is try to revive movie star playbook. Because what I want is Sandy's 60s to be amazing.

• 1:43:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:05Sean Fennessey?

  But we haven't seen Practical Magic 2, so maybe they already are. Uh, okay, let's go now to my conversation with Ben David Grabinsky about Abel Ferrera. Okay, Ben David Grabinsky is back on the show, not, not promoting a film.

• 1:43:21Speaker 02

  I'm not.

• 1:43:22Sean Fennessey?

  You're here.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  I'm not here to talk about Whalefall.

• 1:43:24Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, well, if you'd like to.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  No, I haven't, I haven't seen it yet. I just, I just think we should talk about the science of it so Brian can, uh, hear this later and text me and go, what the fuck?

• 1:43:32Sean Fennessey?

  There's, there's a lot of time for us to talk about the science of Whalefall and we will on this podcast, I promise you. Um, we're talking about a different kind of science today, a different kind of scientist. So by this time, when this is airing, folks will be able to see the Abel Ferrera collection that I helped to co-curate on the Criterion Channel, which is of course, one of the, I say the very best streaming service, in my opinion. And I pitched them over a year ago, an idea to show as many of the films of Abel Ferrera as we possibly can and to talk about why his work is special and why it's meaningful to me. And in recent months, I learned that you, like me, are an Abel superfan and you've seen a great many of his films. Have you seen every film?

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  No, I did watch 19 of them in the last two weeks without having a Criterion, uh, curation, uh, thing. So now it's like my end of year stats on Letterboxd are gonna be a little fucked where it's like, your number one actor is some obscure guy who's in like 12 Abel movies.

• 1:44:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, James Russo, Chris Walken.

• 1:44:31Speaker 02

  Um, no, the guy who played, who's in, um, who's like the police chief in King of New York and Bad Lieutenant.

• 1:44:38Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, Victor Argo?

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. He right now is my number one actor of 21, 2026.

• 1:44:43Sean Fennessey?

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  Uh, and, and I, I can't be the only one. Um, but you know, now it probably would have been easier if they'd been on there. I mean, the thing we'll probably get into is there's a few of them that really need a good physical release. And then there's some that have incredible ones already.

• 1:44:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, I can talk about my experience of seeing Abel's movies through that perspective, maybe, because I tried to acquire a physical copy of as many of his movies as I possibly could to do this project. And the first movie of his that I saw was King of New York. I tell this story in the Criterion Channel video that I made, but in 1994, I got obsessed with Biggie and Ready to Die and on, um, The What with Method Man, he said, he calls himself the Black Frank White.

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:45:23Sean Fennessey?

  And I thought to myself, who is the white Frank White? What does this mean? And so went seeking that out. I hadn't seen King of New York. I probably had heard Quentin Tarantino referencing Abel and referencing those string of late 80s and early 90s movies that he had made, but I was 12 years old, so it was not super easy to track down some of this stuff. But I did track down King of New York and I saw Bad Lieutenant shortly thereafter. And I got very interested in his movies as a big gangster movie fan and as a New Yorker and as a hip hop fan and as somebody who is interested in, you know, New York cinematic history. So fell in love with those movies and I've had like an up and down experience with him, I think like so many other people have, where he is a bit of a shapeshifter and is constantly evolving his style. The last 25 years, he's gone through some really interesting evolutions and, and transgressive moves.

• 1:46:08Sean Fennessey?

  His earliest work is the really like, at the absolute outer edge of exploitation. His first movie is a porno. He makes a proper slasher, inspired by Texas Chainsaw Massacre. He makes a rape revenge movie. And then he kind of slowly starts to pivot into more mainstream fare. What about for you? Like, when, when did you get exposed to him and, and what makes you connected to him?

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  You know, there's like the guys who you grew up with, uh, that I had like my favorite New York filmmakers and favorite like crime filmmakers that I was obsessed with. And I somehow had just missed most of his things. I was aware of King of New York because you'd hear other directors, you like talking about it. And you know, you kind of, I knew who he was, but I didn't really get into any of them. And he's one of the rare people of like, one of my favorite directors who I got into like as an adult. Like most of the stuff that really I'm passionate about, you know, it was like you're 15, 16, 17 and you, you rented that thing and it changed your life.

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  This is like, when Drafthouse Films put out Miss 45, um, more than 10 years ago, um, I. Seen the trailer that Jason Eisner had cut and I'm like, that looks really interesting. So I cold bop the Blu-ray and it just melted my brain. And then you just start going down a rabbit hole. And if you watch his movies out of order, it's insane because there's very clear kind of eras or sections of his filmography where like he's doing a certain type of thing. Genre wise or a certain budget level or has the same department heads where the

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  style evolves and everything changes where when I went back this way, I was kind of watching in order. I started trying to pick up some of the later ones I'd missed. Cause like I saw zeros and ones in theaters and I'm like a huge fan of that. But also just because I think it's the closest we've gotten to like Metal Gear Solid two in a movie. I got it on iTunes and then saw that it was playing in a small theater on Beverly. So I went with some friends, including Joe Bigas, who I'm going to mention because some of his movies feel very able. So I saw it in a theater because I'm like, well, I need to see it with a crowd. I need to see it on a big screen. No one was there and you know, and zeros and ones has like three out of 10 on IMDb or something.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  And a lot of people act like it's bad. And I watched it again this morning and I'm like, I don't know, man. I think every movie should be like this. But you know, I think he's so interesting as a personality. He's so interesting at from like a craft perspective and a thematic perspective. And because there's not a lot of directors who like from beginning to end, like if you watch Driller Killer and then zeros and ones back to back or Tommaso and you know, Miss 45, just drastically different stuff. Also he has his New York era and then he has that classic New York move of like they move out of New York and then they're no longer making New York movies, which is still odd.

• 1:49:17Speaker 02

  I mean, we'll probably get into it, but when you watch stuff like The Blackout, you're like, why are you in Miami? What is going on here? Like this feels like this is almost disconcerting to not have that environment. It feels like it is so much part of his storytelling.

• 1:49:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And those are the movies that I first fell in love with was those New York movies. And I saw stuff as I got a little older in college, like China Girl or like The Addiction, where it still seemed like he was working in the New York register. And those movies have a very specific feel, a very specific vibe. They're melancholy movies. They're kind of doom laden movies. They feel operatic. They're often quite beautifully photographed. They're not that stylistically transgressive, but the content feels very dangerous. His move to Europe, I think dramatically changes, maybe not like his internal register of what makes a good story, but it does change the look and feel of the movies a lot.

• 1:50:12Speaker 02

  And it's also, he did it, I think at the same time he got sober after, you know, spending decades on all kinds of stuff as we both, we both listened to his book.

• 1:50:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  I'm not even a big audiobook guy, but I've listened to his book 1.5 times now. I don't mean 1.5 times speed. I mean, I listened to the whole thing and then went back and listened to a bunch of the chapters because it is like being at 1:30 AM at a bar and a guy telling you a story where you're like, I was going to leave, but just please keep talking. Like this is riveting and hearing it in his own voice, it just feels insane. I mean, the fact that that came out at the same time as like your collection curated thing, I think it's really great if someone gets into him now because you can both get access to like the wide range of his movies, but also get his mostly seemingly uncensored

• 1:51:06Speaker 02

  hot take on his entire life. But also I highly recommend his audio commentaries too, which are a little bit, they're, they're a lot.

• 1:51:15Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he's also not, he's clearly very proud of his career and his work, but he, when he feels something isn't up to his standard or he didn't enjoy an experience, he's very frank about that. And some of the movies that we might revere a lot, he maybe doesn't hold in his high esteem. It was kind of interesting to try to navigate, it's kind of like, what is the proper able canon, you know, like what is the best way to highlight what he's so great at? And then contrast that to how he thinks about it. Because in the book, which is called Seen, and I think if you've watched five or six movies in the collection, it's worth just listening to it all the way through or reading it, of course, but listening to it, you can hear his voice. He turned 75 this year. He is, he lived pretty hard.

• 1:51:56Sean Fennessey?

  He speaks very openly about not just his drinking and casual drug use, but being addicted to heroin for years and the many people around him and their use of heroin and the fact that he's working for decades through this addiction. He made a movie called The Addiction about vampires that is a very thinly veiled allegory for becoming addicted to a substance. And it's amazing how much work he did, given the way that he was living. It's kind of extraordinary. And sometimes when it feels like a movie is right on the brink of falling apart, maybe you have more empathy or at least more understanding of why like a movie like The Blackout, which feels so emotionally chaotic and so like my life is falling apart and I don't know what to do.

• 1:52:41Sean Fennessey?

  Doesn't it feel like it's bored, like ripped completely from the headlines of his own life?

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  I mean, The Blackout, I would say, you know, going back through all these and watching some for the first time, that is one of the darkest movies I've ever seen. And I, you know, I love a lot of movies that are like, you know, just pure misery. But that movie is so bleak in the level of like guilt and shame that is like put into that character as like the worst case scenario version of finding out who you were in those like lost times from your life feels very pointed. And there's just a level of it that it's, because he can put you in the point of view

• 1:53:30Speaker 02

  of a character so well. And you feel like you're on the journey with that guy who is having the worst time, more than almost any movie character has ever. I mean, like, do we care about spoilers?

• 1:53:42Sean Fennessey?

  No, I think we should just talk openly about the man's work.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  You know, it's, you know, it's a movie about a guy who is now sober. And if he had just stayed in New York and stayed sober, he'd be fine. But he just, he just can't let it go and he wants to know what happened and he wants to know some things and then finds out that he did unforgivable stuff. And he could have spent the rest of his life like the, like the end of Old Boy with the guy who's like erased all the things and he can just live at peace. But this guy chose to find out and then he gets yelled at by Dennis Hopper in full Frank Booth mode for like 10 minutes.

• 1:54:16Sean Fennessey?

  Who literally shows him what he's done.

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  Uh, yes. And he's almost like, you fucking idiot. You, you could have just made peace with this, but now I'm showing you on camera what you did. That was, that movie is such a bad hang in a way that I both loved, but also, you know, I think Abel must've been having a hard time.

• 1:54:38Sean Fennessey?

  I think you can say that about almost every movie. You know, three different times he made films about filmmakers. Dangerous Games is a scene from the perspective of a filmmaker played by Harvey Keitel. The Blackout, Matthew Modine plays the filmmaker and Tommaso is also about a filmmaker. And you know, I think it's safe to say there's a lot of autobiography in those movies, but I think there's a lot of autobiography in things like King of New York and Bad Lieutenant. And should probably say the name of Nicholas St. John, who's this co-writer, who's this writer or co-writer on 10 different movies, probably the most significant collaborator of what's seen as like his glory period.

• 1:55:12Speaker 02

  Wildly different scripts and so many of them are like truly brilliant.

• 1:55:15Sean Fennessey?

  An incredible writer and amazing characterization, incredible dialogue writer. And you know, I think many of Abel's best known and best loved movies are written by St. John. And he's also somebody who really shied from the spotlight and wasn't interviewed very often. And so a lot of these ideas, these themes, these kinds of figures who recur, we like, I ascribe to Abel, but I think a lot of them are just as much St. John. One of the themes that I kept circling back to when I was writing about this and thinking about it for the curation was just the trapped man, you know, which is a very kind of like noirish 40s and 50s concept. But in all of Ferrera's movies, the trapped men are trapped because of circumstances that they put themselves in. Like they're aspiring to a certain kind of power or success.

• 1:55:59Sean Fennessey?

  And in doing so, they keep building all these booby traps around them and they fall into them. And you can see that in Bad Lieutenant, you can see that in King of New York. You just described a version of it in The Blackout. It goes on and on and on. The funeral is defined by this. Sometimes the lead is a woman and in that case, that power dynamic shifts a little bit. If it's Miss 45 or if it's The Addiction, it feels like more like something has been put upon the woman. But when it's a man, there's a lot of like, this is all your fault. That feels very personally subjective.

• 1:56:32Speaker 02

  Uh, not to be too glib or jokey, but how much do you think Tommaso was inspired by This Is 40?

• 1:56:42Speaker 02

  Because it's very much like, okay, I'm going to have, the husband is me, but then I'm going to put in my wife and kids and, you know, make something very personal. I think that would be one of the oddest double features ever. Like, you know, someone's like Paul Rudd is me and the other guy's like, well, Willem Dafoe is me. And there's a different level of energy to that, but it is the same cinematic approach to telling a personal movie. I, you know, it just, it's a kind of a coincidence, but also knowing the personal relationship between Abel and Willem makes that even more complicated. But you know, he has a lot of recurring collaborations with actors that are really

• 1:57:27Speaker 02

  pay off and, and their performances are very different, like multiple walk-ins, multiple Willem Dafoe. And then, you know, there's guys who he's worked with a million times and that, that's, you know, just another way that his stuff feels varied and also. So like repetition of themes is working with the same people and kind of working through the same demons and stuff.

• 1:57:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, Kaitel too. Kaitel recurring, another actor who feels like he could be volcanic at any moment and there's a lot going on underneath the surface. You know, he's a, like Stanley Kubrick in KRS-One, he's a product of the Bronx and his father was a bookie and seemed to spend a lot of time in bars. And he talks about this a bit in the book about being surrounded by a life of crime, not necessarily participating in it, but being proximate to it. And then in that proximity, trying to raise money and live a life in the arts while still retaining the hard edge that he's grown up around. And you can feel that. And so there's this interesting tension in the early part of his career. I don't know how much of the early stuff you looked at, but once you get past the exploitation

• 1:58:31Sean Fennessey?

  movies, when he starts kind of getting like Hollywood training. Where he makes, he makes Cat Chaser, which really doesn't go well for him. It's an Elmore Leonard adaptation that he's not really happy with, starring Peter Weller. And that film doesn't really work or come together. And then he makes China Girl and The Gladiator, which is a TV movie. And he works on the, you know, two-episode premiere of Crime Story. And he directs that TV pilot. And you can see that shift that you're talking about where like the movies get a lot shinier. There's a lot more neon and chrome in the, in the frame. There's a lot more money on screen. Doesn't feel like a bunch of guys who just got together and made something a little bit depraved.

• 1:59:14Sean Fennessey?

  And it's funny that he kind of picks up all those tools and gets kind of drawn into the system a bit, but then doesn't get like addicted to that over time. Like eventually he dispenses with a lot of the vagaries of like Michael Mann style filmmaking, which I think is so interesting because a lot of times, once you get exposed to that level of work, it's hard to discover a new path. I don't know how much you think about his style at that time.

• 1:59:38Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I'm pretty, pretty obsessed with it because I think there's a real, like, there's two kind of sliding doors moments with his career. And you look at, so after Bad Lieutenant, he gets brought to Warner Brothers to make Body Snatchers, which I think is maybe the most underrated genre movie of the nineties. I think it is fucking beautiful. Cause like his career for a little bit is tied to the same thing with Boyan Boselli. So that's a guy who shot China Girl, King of New York and Body Snatchers, which I think are all gorgeous movies.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  But Body Snatchers is such, to me, it's one of the most interesting, like, scale ups from a director ever. Going from like his auteur, smaller stuff, he's doing like five, six million dollar movies to making, you know, a gigantic undertaking. Like, you know, it's the thing I love about Body Snatchers is you get to see him like blow shit up and have huge sets and scale and tons of extras. And it is so well executed, but because as he gets into in his book, you know, it tested like a 46 out of 100 and the studio hated it.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  He, I think he just got so burned by the experience. And also they said, he said in the book, there's like a memo saying that Warner Brothers had like no more New York auteurs. You look at that movie and it's like Boyan shoots it and it is one of the most beautiful movies of the nineties, in my opinion. And he clearly was comfortable in that large scale world. Whereas Abel is not the kind of guy who wants to go to a test screening and get feedback and he wants to, you know, take everybody's notes. And either you can function in that world or you can't. And I think, because you go and it's like something like The Addiction, he makes a

• 2:01:35Speaker 02

  bunch of movies like as cheaply as possible so he can have as much control as possible. Where it's clear that control matters more to him. But as like a fan of his work, I like really wish we got a couple more Body Snatchers, even though he clearly was, I think it seems like almost that process made him more miserable than any of his other like real life misery in a way.

• 2:01:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I've always wondered why he didn't try to get, you know, for lack of a better phrase, why he wasn't able to get his Goodfellas made.

• 2:02:05Speaker 02

  Carlito's Way, like he was gonna do.

• 2:02:08Sean Fennessey?

  That's, that's the thing.

• 2:02:09Speaker 02

  That, those are the two things to me is like, what if he hadn't been fired from Carlito's Way? And what if Body Snatchers had done well?

• 2:02:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Body Snatchers, you kind of understand too, because one, he's never made a movie of that scope before. It's a, it's a third time remake. And so he's got some kind of misgivings about getting into this, what we didn't know would be called IP world. It's a relentlessly bleak franchise and story idea, so it was never going to test well regardless. If, if the Kaufman film or the Don Siegel film tested in the seventies and fifties, those films were not going to test well because they, they end so brutally. But it being on a military base in Texas, he's just so fish out of water. Like he's just, he's doing the kind of thing he's never done before. He's working with a lot of great artists and he's got great perspective, but it's clear that there's some discomfort. And I wonder if he was able to make something like Carlito's Way in the early nineties,

• 2:03:01Sean Fennessey?

  if that trajectory really goes in a different direction. Cause he then kind of pretty quickly pivots back to New York by doing The Addiction and The Funeral after that. So he's still like, hasn't gotten that out of his system. And you'd think a movie studio would know in the aftermath of Scorsese's kind of roaring comeback in the nineties that, and you know, 1990, that very famous year of King of New York, Miller's Crossing, Goodfellas and The Godfather Part Three, all coming out in the same year. And this kind of gangster revival that's happening in the American cinema. And he doesn't really get to take advantage of it. Like he doesn't get his $25 million movie starring, you know, I don't know, Chris Walken and Billy Baldwin or something, but like that, it feels like that should have happened.

• 2:03:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he also, you know, he says in his book that he got fired from Carlito's Way because he, they thought he stole a bottle of wine from a table, a can that belonged to the studio head. And he, he tells a bunch of stories without trying to make himself look better, where it sort of feels like in that system, I don't really know if anyone would know what to do with him.

• 2:04:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:07Speaker 02

  You know, it sounds like he was just uncomfortable even staying at the Chateau Marmont, like, and being, living like the life of luxury while making a large scale movie, just feels like it was not good for his temperament. And the interesting thing is also as he gets older, he sort of has less incident and less violence in his movies and less of kind of, he doesn't gravitate as much to things that are like the fun pulp side of these things.

• 2:04:32Sean Fennessey?

  It's true.

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  Like in the Alive doc, Alive in France, which, which is a doc that I think is going to be on your thing.

• 2:04:41Sean Fennessey?

  It's part of the collection, yeah.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  Where he did, showing his films in Europe and then also did a concert of a bunch of music. And at a Q and A, someone says, are you ever going to make a movie like King of New York again? And he basically said he's over making movies about killers. And that's cool. And as an artist, I totally respect that, but you know, not wanting to make movies that have a little bit more of a propulsive energy and an edge and like a thrill to them is, kind of makes his stuff feel even smaller. But I do think zeros and ones is very thrilling and that's about soldiers and, you know, people dying and terrorism and all this stuff. But he does get way more internal, you know?

• 2:05:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, all of his movies are so personal and passionate. So it's inevitable that he's at a certain point not, when he's, especially when he's not living in New York, not thinking about that way of life. And he's getting further and further away from his youth and things he met, he remembers seeing. And he's kind of plunging into the movies. But all the movies I find to be completely anguished. There's just like, you know, one of the, I think one of his most challenging movies is Welcome to New York.

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  Man, I am, I just need to vent about that one for a minute. Is that on iTunes, it says, Welcome to New York, two hours and five minutes. I buy it. I hit play. About an hour into it, I realized the running time is an hour and 48. And then mid movie, I realized I was watching the edited version of Welcome to New York, which I think you can provide some context where people don't know what this movie is. You know, it's a movie about a very terrible incident involving a very rich person who came to America and, and went on trial and basically got away with it because of money.

• 2:06:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:06:30Speaker 02

  I'm not, allegedly, I don't want to get sued.

• 2:06:32Sean Fennessey?

  It's inspired by, though it is not a docu-drama of an incident involving Dominique Strauss-Kahn, who was the head of the International Monetary Fund, a very wealthy man who reportedly had some intense habits. And the, the film portrays this character, played by Gerard Depardieu, raping a woman who works in a hotel where he's staying in New York and he goes on trial and he eventually gets off. And it's a movie about how power operates and vangloriousness and, you know, it's a, it's a hard, tough movie, but the two hour and five minute version is not the one that you saw. It sounds like.

• 2:07:09Speaker 02

  And the one that I saw, there's like some ambiguity and it, they didn't just remove the rape scene. They, there's like, it's like 17 minutes shorter or something like that. And they removed just a lot of dialogue scenes because it was the result of that guy suing the financier. They got rid of all kinds of, like, I was basically going through a list of everything that was there. And I was like, this is a completely different movie when you remove this stuff, where it seems like it doesn't have a strong POV on this person. Whereas the original cut feels like it's an indictment. It's just like, look at evil.

• 2:07:50Speaker 02

  And the, the, the cut now that's supposed to be more palatable is actually like, yeah, he's a bad guy, but is he that bad? Or did this really happen? Or is it this?

• 2:08:00Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, it's a gross mistreatment of Farrar's perspective on the story. So the good news is the uncut version is in the collection. So you can watch the two hour and five minute version, which has, I think, some meaningful context to what you're describing. But, you know, it's interesting that that's a movie that is not about a killer per se, but it is about a similar kind of power hungry devil may care, literally, figure. And it's like the kind of person that keeps getting drawn back to and back to. Some of his characters, there's like an interesting moral relativism that happens across a lot of his movies. In King of New York.

• 2:08:35Speaker 02

  Which is his best movie.

• 2:08:36Sean Fennessey?

  I still, it's still my absolute favorite. And I just think it's a masterpiece, completely agree. You know, it's kind of a Robin Hood movie. It's a movie that is told from the perspective of a crime kingpin who's come out of prison and is reclaiming his corner, so to speak. And, you know, it's unclear how actually generous or change making he is in New York City in his attempts to kind of funnel some of this illicit money to hospitals for children in the South Bronx.

• 2:09:00Speaker 02

  Frank did nothing wrong.

• 2:09:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:02Speaker 02

  He's a great guy, Jimmy, Jimmy Jump, great guy. I think the cops suck, whatever.

• 2:09:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. If you hate cops, you should definitely watch Abel Farrar movies. There are a lot of very unpleasant police officers in these movies. But like, it's interesting that the way that he can kind of shift the perspective on who the bad guy is in the movie pretty seamlessly.

• 2:09:19Speaker 02

  That movie is so singular and fucking incredible. In the book, if someone takes a shot, every time I say in the book on this, they're gonna die. But in his book, Abel says he got the idea from, he saw the Terminator and then sat down. It's like, well, I'm gonna make my version of the Terminator. And he wrote King of New York.

• 2:09:40Sean Fennessey?

  How perfect is that?

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  And, and, but it makes sense because it's relentless machine. But, so I watched King of New York and I had a couple like skating hot takes. I know this isn't rewatchables, but I had some really strong opinions. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna listen to the King of New York rewatchables, so I don't like repeat stuff. And somehow, almost everything Quentin said about it was like what I was, like my, I have a few very strong takes on the movie, which is I think it's perfect, but also like an hour too short.

• 2:10:07Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:10:08Speaker 02

  And then he got into that. And that I think it's really Laurence Fishburne's movie. And it was just like, I was getting like, okay, well, of course Quentin had said everything that I want to say about this.

• 2:10:15Sean Fennessey?

  If people haven't heard that episode, we did an episode with Quentin Tarantino in 2019, one of three episodes, actually. And he chose this movie, which was extraordinary. I was, I could not have been more pumped.

• 2:10:25Speaker 02

  How was that to do that? Can we just take a moment to talk about what was it like doing a rewatchables of Quentin talking about King of New York?

• 2:10:33Sean Fennessey?

  For me, it was wonderful. You know, Bill and I had never talked about that movie and Bill's on that episode. And, but I, but Bill loves Fishburne. And I knew that he liked the movie. That's all that I knew. I knew he had seen it and he liked it and he wanted to be on that episode with us. And the way that we did it was like, I was on one with Chris and Quentin. Chris and Bill were on one with Quentin and I was on one with Bill with Quentin. So, you know, we didn't really strategize or talk very much. But you, if you've ever met Quentin, you know, he's like one of the great talkers about movies in the history of time. And so he came in locked and loaded. He'd shared with us one of the more incredible Laurence Fishburne lore drops you'll ever hear.

• 2:11:08Speaker 02

  Oh, man. I mean, we should talk about James Russo, though. It's like, these are sort of the same discussions. So James Russo played the Frank Stallone part in Beverly Hills Cop.

• 2:11:18Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:11:19Speaker 02

  Uh, like, uh, so Beverly Hills Cop was a Stallone movie. I'm sure everyone already knows this. And it was cast around him. And when he dropped out, the only other part that had to be recast was Mikey, who's his friend who gets murdered and gets the plot going. And that was supposed to be Frank Stallone. And then that was.

• 2:11:39Sean Fennessey?

  Amazing.

• 2:11:39Speaker 02

  And then that was like, James Russo's like, big thing. He's in this gigantic cultural movie. He shows up, he's the heart of the movie and he's gone. Then he's in China Girl, which he's really, really good at.

• 2:11:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, he plays the older brother, Albie.

• 2:11:53Speaker 02

  And he was supposed to be the Laurence Fishburne part. King of New York, I think, is 60% is good that way. And I mean, no disrespect to James Russo. It's that what Laurence Fishburne is doing in that movie, the entire movie, almost like, he's like gravity. The movie just gets pulled around him and the specificity of his performance. And I think the first scene with him and Walken in King of New York is maybe my favorite scene in any movie.

• 2:12:19Sean Fennessey?

  When Walken has just come out of prison and he's in the hotel. Is he in the Plaza Hotel? He's in the Plaza Hotel?

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  He's in the Plaza Hotel. And we met Laurence Fishburne where he shows up at a place and he kills a bunch of drug dealers and seems very scary. We don't know if he's the antagonist to the movie. We don't know his relationship to Frank. And he arrives in his hotel room. And.

• 2:12:38Sean Fennessey?

  They have a, they have a simmering 25 seconds where it feels like there's going to be an all, a shootout, an all out.

• 2:12:46Speaker 02

  And every line in the scene is gold. It's just like, it feels like a Western and are these guys gonna shoot each other? And then it leads to dancing and then just everyone being like so kind of fun and funny and joyous. And then like one of the best lines of movie history where he's like, why didn't you visit me when I was on inside? And you're like, oh, the rest of this movie, there's gonna be this unspoken tension between them. And then in the third act, you know, you're gonna realize he's been mad at him this whole time. And then he just has a one sentence explanation for why he didn't go, which is like profound, which is he's like, uh, like, what does he say? Who wants, who wants to see you in a cage, man? I'm blowing it by doing all this, building, getting the line wrong. It's like, he's like, he just didn't want to see him in a cage.

• 2:13:30Speaker 02

  He didn't want to see someone who he admired and thought was like this larger than life personality in that environment. But the movie doesn't want you to either. It's like the movie skips just to his comeback. Like, you don't have to live in all of that misery. He's just like a bullet train. When he gets out, he's just like, I gotta be king again, you know? And I think they have some of the most amazing chemistry in any movie of this type. And it's just so specific.

• 2:13:58Sean Fennessey?

  Part one was so good about the movie, and I honestly can't recall if we even discussed this with Quentin, is, you know, it's, it's, it's a movie about Frank and it's a movie about ambition and desire. And New York at a very specific moment in time, there's that amazing moment early in the film when he's walking through the restaurant and being greeted and having his ring kissed by the hoi polloi and also the sort of like elevated class of New York. But it's really a movie, I think, about brotherhood on two sides. You know, it is about Frank and his gang and it is about the cops. And he spends a lot of time, we, we go to one of the cops weddings and we see toast given. We see Caruso and Snipes and their bond. And we see these kind of like, again, a kind of a mimic of China Girl, that it is like Jets and Sharks, you know?

• 2:14:41Sean Fennessey?

  It's these kind of two warring gangs that are at each other's throats and won't stop until we reach a kind of doom that is, you know, a story structure as old as time. But he has a kind of poetry to it that makes it so wonderful.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  I, it's so beautifully shot. Like, Boyan's lighting in that movie is, it is stunning. But it is, I think, I don't think there's a better looking crime movie of the 90s at all. I think it is, and the 4K of it is awesome. But it is just, the, everything about that movie, there's so much mood. The lighting is just, it's just such a phenomenally executed movie. But also, there's a playfulness to Walken and Laurence Fishburne in it that makes all of the darkness, it offsets it more than a lot of his movies don't have that.

• 2:15:36Speaker 02

  Like, cause if you compare Walken in this versus Walken in The Funeral or The Addiction, I mean this in the most complimentary way possible, very bad hang, those people. Like, you would never want to be in the same room as them.

• 2:15:49Sean Fennessey?

  No, Frank is a charisma machine.

• 2:15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and he's just likeable. Like, and, and it's a thing that he doesn't usually do, you know? It's like, it's somehow, it's just very interesting to me is because it has all of his normal things. But also, the casting is so key. And it, I think, cause just going back to the thing of Russo passing and Fishburne coming in is, so much of movies and so much of careers is casting. Cause that movie was almost James Remar, it was almost some other people. Also, think about how Walken almost did Bad Lieutenant, completely different movie.

• 2:16:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  And so much of your career is based on if an actor says yes or no, or if your gut says an actor's right and you find out if you're right or wrong, how much it changes tone, how much it changes how palatable your movie is. Like, cause there's a lot of movies he made that if they had something like that Walken performance and Fishburne performance in it, it just makes it more accessible. Cause like, Chris Penn in The Funeral is one of the toughest performances I've ever seen. I somehow, I watched The Funeral, uh, last week or the week before. I had just seen Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer at Lincoln Center. And I think Chris Penn in The Funeral freaks me out more than Rooker does in that movie.

• 2:17:10Speaker 02

  There is, there is a darkness to that performance and that character that is both brilliant, but also is misery, you know? And that's so interesting to me is like, weirdly, I think it's two movies that. Have more kind of an upbeat energy to them. And this is going to sound insane. It's like Miss 45.

• 2:17:30Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:17:30Speaker 02

  Because I think Miss 45 is, once you get past the initial things, which are really fucked up, it's kind of a pretty upbeat thing of like-

• 2:17:40Sean Fennessey?

  It's an exultant romp about getting revenge.

• 2:17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's fun. It's very playful and he's not usually a playful guy. And it's very interesting when he goes into that mode because his usual operating principle is like paranoia and guilt and shame, which is part of why Body Snatchers works so well to me because it is a paranoid thriller. And he is so good at tapping into that and conveying that with performances. But when you watch, you know, 19 of his movies in a couple of weeks, you really notice how much different the energy of King of New York is, even though it is, all kinds of fucked up stuff happens.

• 2:18:22Speaker 02

  But it has just, there's like a level of fun to it that is just really interesting as a counterpoint to all the violence and all the fucked up stuff, you know?

• 2:18:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think a state of contradiction is something that defines all of his work. Because like, he's a director who's in touch with street culture, artistic movements, hip hop, opera, religious history, gangster movies. He's a high-low artist. That's, he turns B-movies into an aesthetes paradise. Like, that's his whole thing. And even as he like, kind of degrades and erodes a lot of his stylistic greatness in the latter half of his career, he's still kind of like breaking the form and rebuilding it. Like, we talked about The Blackout, which is a movie that seems to be taking place like 35% on VHS.

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  Like DV years. I know it's like those high eight, I don't even know, just like the late 90s.

• 2:19:13Sean Fennessey?

  That early digital video.

• 2:19:14Speaker 02

  It almost feels like someone's dad's home video camera shooting.

• 2:19:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:19:18Speaker 02

  And then Hopper calls people videats.

• 2:19:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, yes.

• 2:19:22Speaker 02

  And theater, which I know we both love. And gives big speeches about how video is the future. And I don't think that stuff looks great, but I think that he was on to something because he uses it more in later movies and it is very aesthetically interesting.

• 2:19:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:19:40Speaker 02

  And beautiful, like, just hitting a broken record on zeros and ones, but that's Sean Price Williams. And I wish they did more movies like that because it has like a half inland empire, half collateral view.

• 2:19:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, the ugly, beautiful DV.

• 2:19:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then, not to jump around too much, but in Tommaso, he is giving a speech at a meeting and it's a heartbreaking emotional scene where he's talking about the first time he went to rehab.

• 2:20:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yep, he's in an AA meeting.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  And he's talking about making a movie Miami. And I'm just like, is this about the blackout? And then he talks about the movie and it's not really, but it does line up a little bit. But the, it's interesting that, to me, it feels like he makes a bunch of scrappy movies to try to get more resources to make bigger movies and then reaches a level where he has all kinds of resources and decides he doesn't care about that at all anymore. And he starts to care less and care less and care less. Because it feels like he wanted to prove himself that he could be like this visually accomplished filmmaker. And then it just feels like he just wants to hang out with like Kelch, his like favorite

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  DP, the guy he's known forever and just, you know, just get, just make sure they capture the performances and move on.

• 2:21:01Sean Fennessey?

  Raise enough money to make a movie, you know? I mean, there's something really, so 23 feature films, eight documentaries, a TV movie, a TV pilot, episodes of series television, short films, music videos. He makes Nine Lives of a Wet Pussy Cat, his first film, which is a porno.

• 2:21:18Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:21:20Sean Fennessey?

  And one of the great, one of the reasons why I wanted to do this and I was excited that Criterion wanted to do it is because, you know, as you said, so many of these movies, because they're all made independently, give or take four or five of them, are hard to find or hard to watch. Or maybe you can rent them, but you can't own them, or they're only available on DVD, or they're, you know, like movies like Mary, like Mary is not a part of the collection. That movie is hard to find.

• 2:21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I had a few that I literally could not find. And at the last second, some people are like, hey, I have a copy. And I'm like, well, that's a little late. But that's the, it's fascinating how much, his stuff is either very available in the best transfer possible.

• 2:22:03Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:22:04Speaker 02

  Or impossible to get.

• 2:22:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:22:05Speaker 02

  It's like, there's almost an excessive level of care put into some of the releases of his movies. And then it's like, why isn't there even a decent Blu-ray of The Funeral? Like, A China Girl 4K would be incredible. I mean, that was a movie I watched for the first time during this that blew me away the most.

• 2:22:23Sean Fennessey?

  I have a French Blu-ray of China Girl.

• 2:22:26Speaker 02

  I watched it on, I think I just bought it on iTunes. And I know that some people have been trying to get it and put it out and had some problems. And that's one, it's like, clearly, it's like the production designer of like Eternal Sunshine and like all these crazy things. And then it's the, it's like the costume designer of like the Coen Brothers and Natural Born Killers and stuff. And it just feels like that movie, people hadn't even seen how good it could look. But The Bad Lieutenant 4K is beautiful. Like, I could not believe how good that looked. Because I got all the ones that were, Miss 45 looks incredible, Body Snatchers, the release is lights out.

• 2:23:08Sean Fennessey?

  It's the one I still don't have.

• 2:23:09Speaker 02

  Ah, well, at least you have something to look forward to.

• 2:23:11Sean Fennessey?

  I do, I do.

• 2:23:12Speaker 02

  How rare in life.

• 2:23:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's interesting because I think this is pretty common amongst a lot of filmmakers who toggled between independent and studio work in the 80s and 90s, which is it feels like their filmographies are sort of incomplete in terms of scholarship because some things are harder to find than others, or you're not able to see it in the way that it had hoped to be seen. And for Abel, you know, like we said before, he's, he's got mixed feelings about his work too, you know? And there's some things that he's confused why people would want to even see the movies. And there's other things where he feels like a brighter light should be shined upon certain films. But you know, I like, I was trying to think about him in relationship to his peers.

• 2:23:53Sean Fennessey?

  And it's like, on the one hand, you know, there's a very clear Scorsese, Spike, Sidney Lumet, you know, New York City filmmaker parallel, right? Where there are movies made on the streets of New York about the kind of hard-bitten soul of New York, about the kind of fun and vivacity and the, you know, his movies are very diverse, especially the New York films. Like, they're very, show a lot of different parts of the different communities of the city. But then there's also a part of his movies that are like Paul Schrader or Michael Hanekah or Catherine Bria, like, that are just like tough, dark movies about how people are ultimately bad. And it's an interesting thing for a person who's like, kind of had a lot of transformation spiritually too, you know?

• 2:24:38Sean Fennessey?

  Raised, raised Catholic and then pivots to Buddhism in the second half of his life. And you can see, like in Tommaso, I feel like we're watching a guy literally wrestle with God. Like, that's the whole idea of the movie, is him trying to come to grip with his demons, which feel like they're encroaching upon him in real time. And it's a fascinating thing for somebody to be so frank about their own worldview.

• 2:25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, you know, as someone who's not Catholic, I may be wrong about this, but I would think, to me, that Bad Lieutenant is like one of the most Catholic movies ever made.

• 2:25:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:16Speaker 02

  It really, the fact that that guy in his own weird way, his like journey to forgiveness and, you know, like his Catholic upbringing is, when he first, he's so dismissive of it at first, and by the end, that's almost more important than living, you know? And it is, it's a really, really fascinating movie that is really brilliant and also somehow based on a song that Abel did. You know, when you get to that at the end, it's a little bit like, because I think he sings a song in the end credits. It's a little bit like the end of Big Trouble in Little China when suddenly- It's like, it's a very specific thing where the director sings at the end.

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  Actually, it's funny because I just watched The Insidious that Patrick Wilson directed and the end with him singing a song too.

• 2:26:05Sean Fennessey?

  The Red Door?

• 2:26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I had watched both of those like, close to each other and it was just one of those things where it's like, more movies should have a director singing a song at the end.

• 2:26:14Sean Fennessey?

  It'd be something for you to look into.

• 2:26:15Speaker 02

  You know, I think, I don't think I want to do that, but I do think, I also like at the end of RRR where suddenly like just the director's dancing and like pointing at the audience at the end and he's doing like his victory lap. That, that's another thing I think is important. Most movies should have a director dancing at the end, but not me. Someone else should.

• 2:26:32Sean Fennessey?

  I always think of Bad Lieutenant as like a companion to Last Temptation of Christ and they feel like very similar kinds of movies to me where you can,

• 2:26:40Sean Fennessey?

  you really can't tell, well, I'll tell you what I wrote down about Bad Lieutenant when I was preparing for this. Cause I am a frequently devastated Mets fan with a cop father. And so Bad Lieutenant really holds a special place in my heart that no one could make a man as insane as Keitel's character is in the movie, like the New York Mets. And the film opens with iconic WFAN radio host Chris Mad Dog Russo arguing with a caller about the Mets before cutting to Keitel, stumbling out of his Queens home to drive his two sons to school. This is immensely relatable content to me.

• 2:27:14Speaker 02

  It's funny because my concept of New York sports is because I've been living in New York for almost two years now. I'd say being a bandwagon Knicks fan has been one of the most wonderful things that ever happened to me and I,

• 2:27:26Sean Fennessey?

  as I rock my real King of New York Jalen Brunson t-shirt today.

• 2:27:30Speaker 02

  Well, my concept of New York sports is that strangers on the street basically want to high five you and will just say Knicks in five all the time and sports only brings people happiness. And I'm like, it is, but my concept of sports is being a Suns fan for 30 years and just thinking that, life is pain and it's never going to work out and I wish that they never almost got it because now every time they don't do well, I get mad. You know, I had to, you know, get airdropped into a fandom and like, uh, everyone being so excited, uh, for how all that went. It's funny because I, you know, I listened to the episode where you were talking about it and like, you know, you could feel the catharsis for everybody.

• 2:28:13Speaker 02

  But for me, it was just like, it feels like I got to do that and then spend, you know, a million days in a row watching World Cup games. And I'm just like, I'm like, New York's a city where sports are just great.

• 2:28:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah. I tell you what, that has not been the case for at least a certain strain of us, right?

• 2:28:28Speaker 02

  But that's, but my concept of New York sports from movies is, you know.

• 2:28:31Sean Fennessey?

  This.

• 2:28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:33Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, there's, there's the Yankees and the New York Jets side of New York's sports fandom and the Mets side. But one of the things that I always thought was really funny about this movie is, um, it's apparently set during a dramatic Mets playoff comeback. And in real life in 1992, the Mets finished 72 and 90. They're one of the most disappointing Mets teams in franchise history. And they're in the midst of a real dry spell after having some success in the eighties. And so the whole movie kind of already feels like this abject fever dream, this kind of like, power fantasia that collapses into this doom rot in this guy's life. And the idea of matching like the lie of Mets success against that is so fascinating and it, and it cutting out of him.

• 2:29:16Sean Fennessey?

  We've talked about a bunch of deep cuts already. I'm wondering if there's any movies we haven't mentioned that you really like and want to give some time to. We haven't talked about New Rose Hotel. I mean, you want to talk about that?

• 2:29:24Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, do we have enough hours to talk about New Rose Hotel?

• 2:29:28Sean Fennessey?

  That movie, this comes immediately after the blackout, 1998.

• 2:29:32Speaker 02

  It's so, it's a really, really interesting movie because it's a movie made right after a lot of his collaborators had sort of, gone away from him to a point where it's even like, cause it's not Nicky. Uh, Schoolie D is doing the score instead of his normal guy.

• 2:29:51Sean Fennessey?

  Joe Delia, yeah.

• 2:29:52Speaker 02

  Which we got again too, but in that movie is very,

• 2:29:58Speaker 02

  it's fascinating because it's one of those things where Preston had the rights to it and they tried to make it like a Schwarzenegger, like an Arnold action movie for a while and had no luck. And then finally it was one of those things where like he had, just has to make a movie and it was like a seven page William Gibson short story. And that movie is just all mood. It's all vibes. It is a, just like on the, um, he did an intro for the, the recent release, um, The Vinegar Syndrome, uh, cinema, cinema.

• 2:30:31Sean Fennessey?

  Cinematograph.

• 2:30:32Speaker 02

  I hope Justin's not listening. I can't pronounce your, uh, your boutique label name, but he, he starts it out by saying movies are a 90 minute dream. And that is the energy of that movie. It is not really a narrative, although it is.

• 2:30:48Sean Fennessey?

  There's a, there's a plot, but it's sort of unrealized in a lot of ways, very purposely because he's stretching out a seven page story idea about these, kind of cyber extraction terrorist style figures attempting to remove a Japanese guy from the center of power and bring him to another center of power. And it's Willem Dafoe, him working with Willem Dafoe for the first time. And I think, is it the last time with Walken?

• 2:31:12Speaker 02

  I believe it's the last time with Walken. It's also got a lot of Paul Schrader energy with Willem Dafoe writing in notepads. But it also feels like, has that notorious thing to, or Mission Impossible to, where, you know, falling in love with someone who is also, you're using them to seduce or romance or whatever, a target. And it's a lot of kind of.

• 2:31:39Sean Fennessey?

  Ozzy Argento is the.

• 2:31:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:31:41Sean Fennessey?

  Seductor.

• 2:31:43Speaker 02

  In the book, he really gets into, there's a lot going on in the real life of the making of that.

• 2:31:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:31:49Speaker 02

  And because it's like a real life tortured love triangle.

• 2:31:53Sean Fennessey?

  Which is just insane. I mean, it's just insane and it's so interesting how Frankie is about a lot of those experiences.

• 2:31:57Speaker 02

  And the fact that it made them even better friends for it. Also that Abel thought you could fly to Japan out of LaGuardia. Was the, I was like, buddy, that, that really shows how much, how many drugs you're on at the time. When someone said, oh yeah, I'm going to LaGuardia because I'm flying to Japan. Can't do that. Um, it'd be like flying to Japan out of Burbank, really. You just, you know, the, the little gullible.

• 2:32:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:32:23Speaker 02

  To say the least, but that movie.

• 2:32:24Sean Fennessey?

  I think he was under the influence at this time too, you know, there's, and there's something that very under the influence about New Rose Hotel. It's another movie that feels like it's made entirely with surveillance cameras. Like it doesn't even really feel like it's a movie. Once you get past the kind of opening passages when they're in the club, everything else that you're seeing feels kind of illicit and behind closed doors. And there's also kind of a looseness between Dafoe and Walken and circumspect about what they're talking about and how they're talking about it. And you can see that they have this real bond between them. And I'm watching the movie and I'm like, oh, in this scene it feels like Dafoe is representing Ferrera. And then in this scene it feels like Walken is representing Ferrera. And is he talking to Nicholas St. John? Is he talking to Joe Delia? Is he talking to all these longtime collaborators?

• 2:33:04Speaker 02

  He's also doing like the dramatic version of Nirvana, the band, the show, when you resee scenes, but they're different when you cut to a flashback. Not done as like a comedic setup and payoff. It's like, you'll see a scene between Dafoe and Walken. And then they'll flashback to it and it's a different take. And in the first time you saw the scene, there's like resentment. And then the second time there isn't and it's played completely differently.

• 2:33:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:33:30Speaker 02

  Which makes the whole thing, it makes, because it's nonlinear. And also when you cut back to things, it's like, wait, did I remember that wrong? Like there's a different energy to this.

• 2:33:42Speaker 02

  But also just like, the Schoolie D music is really good. Uh, and I was watching like a featurette about that where he was talking about like, it was like his concept of the future, but then, um, RXmas.

• 2:33:54Sean Fennessey?

  RXmas, yeah.

• 2:33:55Speaker 02

  He did, um, great music in that and original songs. But when I was watching RXmas, I started to get really distracted because I somehow had not realized, even though I like Schoolie D a lot, that he did the Aqua Teen Hunger Force, uh, main theme.

• 2:34:10Sean Fennessey?

  Absolutely did.

• 2:34:11Speaker 02

  And then now every time I was hearing a Schoolie D song as I was watching more of these movies, I'm just like, that's, that's the Aqua Teen guy. Like there, it was just like this.

• 2:34:19Sean Fennessey?

  Well, there was that extraordinary scene in King of New York.

• 2:34:25Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 2:34:26Sean Fennessey?

  Neon lit, said to, am I black enough for you? Which is one of his great songs. It's a gangster rap pioneer, Schoolie D. And, um, you know, you can just see that Abel has like an emotional connectivity to his music. But he's in, in Alive in France, Schoolie's supposed to be there. And he kind of slips through the cracks and doesn't show up and isn't there to perform. And like, it seems like that's pretty consistent with his relationship with him over the years. Where like he thinks he's going to get him on something and then he doesn't. And he's working with this kind of loose confederation of complicated artists all the time, trying to get them to go together.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  One of the most interesting things about music in his movies is, uh, in a way that I, I don't think there's a comp. Is he has so many movies where he clearly just didn't have money for music or he has money to get one big song. And then the rest they have to write. Like when you watch China Girl, it's like they have Walk This Way. And you're like, holy shit, that is a big song. And it's like, yeah, but we are now out of money. So I need my collaborators to make sound alike songs. And he has so many movies where he clearly had a song in there and then they had nothing in the budget later. So then he has one of his collaborators do a song like it. So, but he'll have a movie that has like a gigantic song, you know, but then every other song in it is like a little bit more low rent.

• 2:35:39Speaker 02

  And the balance of that is like China Girl, when Walk This Way kicked in, I was like, whoa.

• 2:35:47Speaker 02

  How the fuck did they get this song? But then it's frustrating because it's clear they weren't playing that on set because the dancing they're doing is not in rhythm to that song. But it's a perfect song for like that time period. But when you listen to interviews with him or like read stuff, it's always like him complaining, saying, yeah, we ran out of money for music, so at the last minute, we had to do blah, blah, blah. Because Schoolie D didn't want his songs in King of New York, and he said no a bunch. And then he finished the movie with those songs in there without his permission and then screened it for him and apparently told him, hey, if you want me to remove these, it's gonna be a huge pain in the ass. And that was the start of their collaboration, was him being like, fine, you can put my songs in your movie.

• 2:36:32Speaker 02

  And then he had several movies where he was writing music for Joe Delia while Joe Delia was the composer. And then when they had, you know, were butting heads, then he did the score for a couple of them.

• 2:36:44Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I mean, part of the reason why Walk This Way is in that film is because Russell Simmons is a figure who keeps dumping money into Abel Ferrera movies.

• 2:36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, like The Addiction.

• 2:36:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and they have this longstanding relationship. And Russell Simmons, at the time, was like a revered New York entrepreneur, and now his reputation has pretty dramatically changed after some rough accusations over the recent years. But like, he's another one of those people that Abel would go to and say, can you get me a quarter of a million dollars to dump into a movie like The Addiction? And there's a real like by hook or by crook quality to the making of so many of these movies that is really fascinating. But I like the Joe Delia, Schoolie D balance because to me, they're like the kind of competing sounds of New York, too. They're sort of like the blues rock and synthesizer, new wave, you know, no way of post-punk energy that he brings to movies. And then Schoolie's like really classical NYC, East Coast hip-hop.

• 2:37:38Sean Fennessey?

  And not a lot of the New York filmmakers at that time could do both. Like, you think of Scorsese and you think of the Rolling Stones, you think of Spike and you think of Public Enemy. Very rarely do the twain meet. And I love him as this kind of meeting point of these two ethics of New York.

• 2:37:56Speaker 02

  But it's the same way that his movies are so different, is he has a wide sort of, his taste is complicated and covers multiple genres, you know? Because like, the music for Miss 45, I think, is one of my favorite scores ever, especially like the music in the final party is just lights out, and it is so different from the music in King of New York, just drastically, which is so different from the music in Body Snatchers. But he clearly has these things he's passionate about that are kind of idiosyncratic, because like The Addiction has so much hip-hop in it, and King of New York does. And then he has other movies that are so far in the other direction.

• 2:38:40Speaker 02

  And then, like, you watch Bad Lieutenant, and it has like all more vintage tracks, but then it ends with his song in the end credits, which is a completely different energy.

• 2:38:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:38:48Speaker 02

  And somehow, it all mixes together because it is, I think, this is either interesting or the most obvious thing I could ever say is like, the best movies are like a reflection of like, the passion and interest of the director. And it's like, you can feel, he's like, I fucking love this song, man, and this feels right, and I fucking love this song, and this feels right, even though like, I can't imagine other director mixing those together, but they work because you can tell he's like, energized by it.

• 2:39:16Sean Fennessey?

  We talked about this with you picking songs for your movie, when you were on the show last time, and you were just like, this is something that just matters to me? And you can sense that, it's specificity, right? And it's like, you're understanding someone's point of view and the specificity of the choice.

• 2:39:29Speaker 02

  But this, to circle back to the previous thing, I think the difference between me and Abel is like, I really like scale, and it's really important to me to get money for music. And that, to him, is clearly very secondary. Like, I, because I maybe spent 11 months trying to get all the music for my first movie because I didn't have a lot of money. And then even on my last one, you know, you're doing your best and not have compromises. But I have to start from a point of, you know, I like scale, and I like blowing shit up, and I like production value. Like, to me, that is enjoyable, and it makes me feel like I'm getting my money's worth watching a movie. But with Abel, it's like, the further he got into his movies, he becomes clear that

• 2:40:11Speaker 02

  it's like, what he has to say is more important than formalism. You know, it's like, and he's still, like, The Addiction is a beautiful movie, but it's not like, it's not like China Girl that has like, you know, a lot of lighting of these New York streets and stuff. It's very scrappy, but beautiful. But it also gives it like an energy, you know, where the kind of scaled-down thing also feels like actors must enjoy it. And he talks about like, he's like Clint Eastwood, where like, a lot of things, he only wants to do one or two takes, which is crazy when you see some of these performances, you're like, that was just right out of the gate? That wasn't like, take 12?

• 2:40:49Sean Fennessey?

  He talks about, I think the take in The Addiction, when Chris Walken first meets Lily Taylor's character, is one take. And he gives that long speech, and he's a very dramatic gestural performance.

• 2:40:59Speaker 02

  That's top five vampire movies of all time for me, The Addiction.

• 2:41:03Sean Fennessey?

  It's an amazing film.

• 2:41:04Speaker 02

  It's fucking so good, dude.

• 2:41:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and it's interesting, too, because you talked a lot about Boyan Bazili and the beauty that he brings to a lot of the movies, and these like complicated lighting rigs, and they're clearly much more kind of upscale productions, but Ken Kelch is basically shooting handheld black and white in The Addiction, and it's among his most beautiful films.

• 2:41:22Speaker 02

  I mean, I think the Boyan stuff, to me, is like my personal preference, but the Kelch on Bad Lieutenant and The Addiction is undeniable, especially like Arrow has a release of both of those, and they just look crazy good. And I saw The Addiction at midnight at Nighthawk a couple of months ago, and it is such a good midnight movie.

• 2:41:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:44Speaker 02

  The movies have nothing in common, but I think two of my favorite midnight movies are near dark in that, which are wildly different vampire movies. But there's something about vampire movies and that kind of thing where it's like, being kind of sleepy while watching it makes you feel, it's just, it's like the right energy, you know? There's something about, like, The Addiction, you should sort of be watching a little bit later than you plan on staying up. And, you know, also, he has so many movies that are like, under 90 minutes.

• 2:42:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:42:15Speaker 02

  Which is crazy, but that's going back again to-

• 2:42:17Sean Fennessey?

  That was wonderful for doing all the catch-up, though. You know, to just kind of plow through a lot of these movies and be able to like, really dig in to as many of them as possible.

• 2:42:25Speaker 02

  It's interesting because almost every movie he's made feels like it is the right length, or maybe just overstays its welcome a little bit. Except King of New York, I can't get over the fact that it does, I think there could have easily been a three-hour version of that movie, that would have been incredible. Because it does feel a little bit like it's a speedrun, because it's like, you meet the cops, well, now the cops are going dark because they've had it with him. But you're almost like, well, I want all the steps in between, like, I want to see him scale up his structure, I want to see like more power he gains, I want to see like conflict in the organization. It's like, the movie is both perfect, and also, I greedily want more.

• 2:43:07Sean Fennessey?

  I think some of that is that we are conditioned to expect, that Coppola has The Godfather, Scorsese has Goodfellas, Lumet has Prince of the City, these kind of like expansive, extensive, magisterial New York crime operas. And it's a movie that feels like it's operating on the same level, but it's, whatever, an hour and 58 minutes, you know? It's not, it's just not as long.

• 2:43:29Speaker 02

  And it, but it, it has maybe the most propulsive pacing of any movie I've ever seen. I'm not saying like editorially, like, it is rapidly cut, it just, the movie just moves from scene, he's like, I'm out, I'm gonna do this thing. But that also reflects like his drive, character-wise, because he's like impatient to get to the top again. But it's, you know, it's interesting because like, he gets, all of his movies end up being sort of that length. The one movie that I don't know if he was ever gonna figure out in that regard, where like, I think it is amazing, like, I gave it like five stars or whatever, but Dangerous Game also is clearly like, both too long and way too short, and very shaggy, but, you know, it is what it is.

• 2:44:14Speaker 02

  It's like, you know, the rumors are, as you, I think we talked before about this, is like, that at, both at one point, he just was like, I think I've shot enough, and hadn't shot everything, but just like wrapped. And then also in post, apparently like just lopped off like a 20-minute section just randomly.

• 2:44:30Sean Fennessey?

  Well, you know, it's a film that was written around Madonna. It's supposed to be framed around Madonna's character, and you can see that he does not have a ton of interest in that character, and he pivots the story pretty dramatically to Harvey Keitel's character, who's a filmmaker. And it's, you know, that's a recurring interest as well about this kind of guy who's, life is falling apart around him. And it makes sense, you know, it makes sense, and it seemed like Madonna did not have the best time and did not enjoy the movie. It's never been one of my favorites of his. It does feel, it feels like it's been revised in real time, and it does not have any of the propulsion of the movies from this era. It is purposefully kind of like, a little sullen and a little dank. But it does kind of lead the way, I think, to the Blackout and New Rose Hotel era, where

• 2:45:14Sean Fennessey?

  it feels like formally, he's a little bit less interested in, he's more interested in mood than he is in style.

• 2:45:20Speaker 02

  The performance that I really want to talk about from one of his movies is, so I watched Fear City.

• 2:45:25Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm. Sure, we haven't talked about that yet.

• 2:45:27Speaker 02

  So, it is, it's an interesting movie because it's both awesome, but it also sort of feels like several other people could have directed it, which I don't feel like with his other movies. But when Billy Dee Williams shows up in that movie, it is like one of the biggest injections of energy to a movie I've ever seen. And I'm like, okay, now we're great. And then he'll just leave for a long time and then come back. And I think I'd misunderstood the premise, is I thought the premise was gonna be Billy Dee and it's Behringer, right?

• 2:45:54Sean Fennessey?

  Tom Behringer.

• 2:45:55Speaker 02

  I thought that the two of them were gonna like, kind of team up to solve this. I was like, in my head, backseat directing, I'm like, this is the best premise ever. The cop who wants to stop these people, like, this would be a buddy thing, and they hate each other, but they need each other, and the two of them are gonna find this serial killer, and then it didn't become that. And then I found out afterwards, I think Billy Dee was only in it because like a studio obligation. It's like he had to do, it's like Ed Norton in Italian Job, or The Score, or whatever the fuck, one of those movies where he's like, you contractually have to be, and he's like, I will show up and be a movie star for like these four scenes. But I, the interesting thing when you do this with a filmmaker is being like, what actors didn't come back when they were like cooking? Like, I really wish there was more Dennis Farina and Abel.

• 2:46:38Speaker 02

  Like, also, just because, I realized recently, like-

• 2:46:43Speaker 02

  Someone was asking like, like who my five favorite actors were and I realized I think Dennis Farina is probably up there and it in terms of there's very rare that there's an actor who somehow is in so many important movies and so fucking great because it's like the fact that he's like, you know, and wildly different performances, but I mean you out of sight last night.

• 2:47:05Sean Fennessey?

  We just screened Out of Sight.

• 2:47:06Speaker 02

  Two of my favorite performances in movie history are Don Cheadle and him in that movie. I think every second there on screen, they are just like, I'm gonna steal this movie and then you can let everyone else do their thing. And he's so, it's small, but he's just one of the most underrated actors ever, even though he's, it's not that he's underrated, but I just wish he was in more of these movies.

• 2:47:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, he's an all time great character actor. I think in those nineties films in Get Shorty, in Snatch, in Crime Story, like which basically plays like a movie now, the first two episodes, in Thief even in the moment, brief moments that he's in there, he seems like a real person, you know, and he has a ton of charisma, but I've always said this, like, growing up around a lot of cops, he just seemed like a cop and he was a cop. And it was always funny when he'd play villains in movies versus playing, playing the cop. But yeah, I agree that they could have made some more beautiful music together.

• 2:48:06Speaker 02

  That's the, you know, it's like, I wish Billy Dee had come back. I wish he had more stuff with Laurence Fishburne. Like, that's, that's one of those things where you get kind of greedy when you're decided like to go deep dive on a filmmaker is when you're like, oh, man, I wish there was more movies these guys did.

• 2:48:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:21Speaker 02

  The other thing I want to talk about was, one of the comparable filmmakers to me, especially in his early days, was Larry Cohen, who I'm a huge fan of. And I was having like a weird epiphany that like his earlier, like a lot of his stuff feels like it's sort of like half Larry Cohen, half Safdie's. And like, they have kind of picked up the mantle in a lot of ways, which is why it was so exciting to have him show up in Marty Supreme. I mean, what, how did you feel when you're watching that movie and he just showed up? Wasn't that like, it's like, it was like, I felt like someone just did that for me.

• 2:48:54Sean Fennessey?

  Well, you may recall he's in Daddy Longlegs.

• 2:48:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:48:58Sean Fennessey?

  For like a hot minute.

• 2:48:59Speaker 02

  But being in this movie and that significant of a part. Also, I watched that movie twice before I realized that that was Penn, like the Penn Jillette, I mean, he was the guy in that.

• 2:49:10Sean Fennessey?

  The angry house owner, yeah.

• 2:49:12Speaker 02

  But there's something really, I like that passing the torch sort of thing.

• 2:49:16Sean Fennessey?

  Totally. I mean, you know, Criterion asked me to talk about Abel's influence and how it lives on. It obviously lives on in Josh and Benny's movies, especially Josh. And I asked Josh just to like, tell me a little bit off the record about what he thinks about Abel's work, you know? And the one thing he did say is he's one of the most romantic people I've ever met, which I thought was an interesting way to frame him, you know?

• 2:49:40Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:49:41Sean Fennessey?

  He's somebody who kind of like falls in love and is very passionate. You were saying his passions are kind of suffused through the movies. And on screen or in interviews or even in his own book, he's has, you know, he can be a little grouchy, he's very frank, he's lived hard, but he makes these movies about these people in deep emotional throes, you know, like that is the whole premise. Like, if you look at Tommaso or Pasolini or even in Fear City, they're like, which I think is a very flawed movie, but is an interesting movie. You're right that it never sets up that dipstick between him and Billy Dee. It focuses more on Tom Berenger's character, who is this kind of little punch drunk boxer

• 2:50:22Sean Fennessey?

  who's got PTSD from killing someone in the ring. And he's trying to solve this serial killer story or a-

• 2:50:30Speaker 02

  A Kung Fu serial killer.

• 2:50:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:33Sean Fennessey?

  Who is murdering strippers and-

• 2:50:37Speaker 02

  It's very like Ref and Origins at times, you know?

• 2:50:40Sean Fennessey?

  Totally, totally. Yeah. And it's, it's a grimy exploitation movie in a lot of ways. And Berenger's like, okay, a little miscast, but it's again, another movie that's about a person who's just like haunted by the past, can't get away, and thinks if he pulls off one final act of good, then he can free himself from his pain. And he comes back to that over and over again.

• 2:50:59Speaker 02

  The thing that we need to talk about from Fear City, though, that's more important to me, is there's a song in it called "Method to Your Badness."

• 2:51:05Sean Fennessey?

  [laughing]

• 2:51:06Speaker 02

  That's fucking so sick.

• 2:51:10Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:51:11Speaker 02

  The, you know, there's nothing better than that. And so, was it, I watched so many of these in quick succession. Another thing I wanted to bring up just about music was that I, the lead singer of New York Dolls-

• 2:51:24Sean Fennessey?

  David Johansson.

• 2:51:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, did, I think it was China Girl is a couple of songs that he sang. And I was like looking at the songs because I was, you know, doing my own dumb obsession stuff to figure out like who was performing and which ones were written by his composer and which ones were songs they licensed. And I saw that and I looked him up and I never knew what he looked like and I have never felt dumber than realizing that the guy from Scrooged is the singer of New York Dolls. And I'd always-

• 2:51:54Sean Fennessey?

  And Buster Point Dexter, the hot, hot, hot guy. You know, he's also that guy.

• 2:51:58Speaker 02

  I'd always been like, who is that guy in Scrooge that had such an idiosyncratic performance that has never really been in anything else? And I never once bothered to Google it. And like, that was the weirdest thing from watching China Girls, realizing that the ghost of Christmas, past or present, whichever one he is, I think it's past-

• 2:52:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:52:16Speaker 02

  Is him. And-

• 2:52:18Sean Fennessey?

  Have you seen Personality Crisis? The documentary that, sort of a performance documentary that Scorsese made about him?

• 2:52:25Speaker 02

  I think if I had, I would have known he was the guy from Scrooge.

• 2:52:28Sean Fennessey?

  It's a relatively recent, it came out in 2022, but it's pretty interesting.

• 2:52:30Speaker 02

  It's weird because I've listened to them forever, but I've never, I never seen an intro footage and then I started going down a rabbit hole on that stuff. And that's also a really interesting thing is when musicians get repurposed as performers based on their larger than life personality, either on talk shows or on just, you know, going to dinner parties with all these people and them knowing each other. Like, the other thing I wanted to say earlier, it's that I'm kind of fascinated by movies that Stuart Gordon almost did. Because Stuart Gordon was the director of Body Snatchers and then was replaced and then he was the director of Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. And there's that sliding doors thing of like, that's like what it was like with him on Carlito's Way, which is like, there's

• 2:53:15Speaker 02

  these in-between stages of these large scale studio movies where, that were almost a movie by like these smaller scale auteurs.

• 2:53:23Sean Fennessey?

  And is the story there that Pacino's manager pursued Ferrera after seeing King of New York?

• 2:53:30Speaker 02

  Is that Pacino had seen King of New York and wanted to meet him in Fishburne. And then they put him on there and then David Koep got brought on to do a rewrite, not involving Abel or Pacino, just involving the studio. Then Bad Lieutenant came out. Abel sort of made a few poor choices and was replaced. And it's funny too, because as much as I'd really like to see that, I am weirdly very, very ride or die in like Carlito's Way. I used to think that Carlito's Way was merely good. And I've reached a point where it's one of my favorite De Palmas and he's one of my favorite directors. I think it is, even though people like it, I think it's genuinely a great movie. And I'm really

• 2:54:12Speaker 02

  fascinated by that. I'd love to see Abel's version, but you know, that worked out.

• 2:54:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:19Speaker 02

  I wish it was a way to get both.

• 2:54:20Sean Fennessey?

  It's more like what would have happened to Abel's career if he was able to make that movie. Maybe nothing, maybe nothing changes, but-

• 2:54:26Speaker 02

  I wish that it took, he made like two or three big movies before he got burned out instead of just making one big one. But he clearly was never going to reach a point where he was that comfortable in that world, you know?

• 2:54:36Sean Fennessey?

  Um, give me your five favorites.

• 2:54:39Speaker 02

  You know, I, I, so I'd say King of New York is like by far is my favorite. I think it's fucking just one of the great movies. But when I was going back and rewatching these, Miss 45 is pretty close to the top. Like, I, if you catch me on a certain day, I might say it's my favorite. Like, King of New York is a better movie, but I think Miss 45 is like one of the most interesting, exciting, specific movies of that type I've ever seen. Her performance in that movie, I can't believe I've gone this whole time without talking about her.

• 2:55:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:22Speaker 02

  Is, I will never forget the experience of seeing that and being like, who is this person? This is like a silent movie star. This is one of the best performances I've ever seen. Whatever happened to her? Googling her and going, oh, okay, shit, she-

• 2:55:36Sean Fennessey?

  Abel writes beautifully about her and about the struggles that she had. She's listed, you know, she's, I did as the co-writer of Bad Lieutenant and, and appears in that film. It's the only other film of his that she appeared in.

• 2:55:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And she was also in a Larry Cohen movie. And-

• 2:55:50Sean Fennessey?

  Special effects.

• 2:55:51Speaker 02

  But I think that the combination of her performance, the specificity of that movie, the score, how tight it is, it is one of the great, it's like, I like the Death Wish movies, especially Three, but this is like so much better than every Death Wish movie ever made. I think that it is like the most pure, distilled, like terrible thing happens to a person, now this person is just becoming a vigilante. And the fact that she doesn't speak and then until when she screams at the end, I mean, the movie is, also, it is such a level up in execution from Driller Killer, which is, I think, a really, really

• 2:56:34Speaker 02

  interesting movie, you know, because it's like his dirtbag era. And it's also part of that legacy of a lot of people being like, oh, horror movies make money. I will make a horror movie.

• 2:56:46Sean Fennessey?

  He literally watched Texas Chainsaw Massacre and was like, how can I do one of these and kind of elevate myself out of the inability to make a movie?

• 2:56:51Speaker 02

  But he, it's funny because I think a lot of times like execs view almost porn and horror as interchangeable because they view it as a profitable thing that they don't respect. And he went through that cycle of making a porn film because, well, that's the only thing I can make that I can get money for. Okay, well, horror I can make. And that evolution through that, but I think just Driller Killer is so interesting and scrappy and awesome, but Miss 45 is like auteur shit. Like, it's just got such a vision, such an interesting tone. And I just think it's one of the great performances. So like, I'd say those are the, those top two.

• 2:57:28Sean Fennessey?

  I have Miss 45 and King of New York on my list as well.

• 2:57:31Speaker 02

  And then Body Snatchers, you're not gonna meet someone who is more, more going to bat. Like, if I- Have anything I can say in this podcast is that everyone has to give Body Snatchers a shot. And then the other one, which is not in my top five, but I think everyone should watch China Girl. I thought it was so interesting. And the fact that it is really about having a shitty boss more than it's anything else. Like, the entire movie is about the pain of middle management, where it's like two different warring gangs, because it's his version of West Side Story or Romeo and Juliet. I think it's an incredible movie.

• 2:58:11Speaker 02

  But also, it is really about how all of our conflict, all of our personal issues and our anger can really just be that our boss doesn't give a fuck about us, they don't care about what we want, and we will never profit in the same way. Like, it's like, there's something so interesting about how that was the way into that movie. Because he's like, there was something he just threw out as a lark, saying, "I want to make my Romeo and Juliet with, like, you know, Little Italy and Chinatown." But it ends up just being about the frustration of these guys who, like, are just like, "Why the fuck? Our boss does not pay attention to us. We don't get invited to his dinner parties." Like, what's going on here? The fact that that is the point of view of that movie, I thought, was so interesting.

• 2:58:52Speaker 02

  But, okay, so I would go Kim New York, Miss 45, Body Snatchers, The Addiction. We've gone over it, I think, is just, it's just such a great fucking movie, man. Like, it is, it's so interesting. I wish that every artsy director made one horror movie, or more. But there's something about someone who has a strong point of view and a specificity of vision, working in that genre, that almost always pays off. Like, I've said it a million times, but like, I wish P T made a full-on horror movie so bad. Like, when he's doing his Shining stuff and There'll Be Blood, it just feels like, "I want, just make a haunted house movie, man. Just like, spend six months doing that."

• 2:59:36Speaker 02

  Like, you know, I wish Quentin would just make a slasher movie like he always talks about, even though Death Proof is one. But when he's doing genre, like, Body Snatchers and The Addiction are both, like, working at such a high level because he cares so much. Like, I'm a big horror guy, but there's a lot of horror directors, we've made horror movies I love, that don't really feel like they are really all about cinema. You know, like, they are just about horror, and I think when you have someone who's like that making a vampire movie, it's just fucking the best. So, that's four. Did I just do, did I only do four?

• 3:00:10Sean Fennessey?

  Four is good. I, you know, I can't-

• 3:00:13Speaker 02

  My number five would be zeros and ones. All right, okay.

• 3:00:15Sean Fennessey?

  That's great. I would throw Tommaso on my list as well, as kind of, that to me is like the late-period masterpiece. I think Pasolini is really interesting, and Welcome to New York is hugely accomplished and powerful, but Tommaso is the one that I like the most, that feels the most personal, that feels the most complex, unresolved, really scary, upsetting ending. New Rose Hotel would also be on my list, as would Bad Lieutenant.

• 3:00:39Speaker 02

  Bad Lieutenant would be my five. I can't, I can't be too much of a stinker. I love zeros and ones, but Bad Lieutenant's undeniable.

• 3:00:45Sean Fennessey?

  And what you're saying is, like, that 90s period is so unmatched. But he's still, I mean, he's still working, still form-breaking. I think he's trying to get a movie made right now.

• 3:00:55Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, I will go to bat for a lot of his, you know, movies past, like, the legacy era. And I think a lot of them are super interesting and absolutely should be watched. There's just like, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, you have a band where they have the really interesting albums that you love, and you could talk about for hours, but you're also like, on a desert island, I would bring the other one. And that's sort of how I feel about those.

• 3:01:21Sean Fennessey?

  Totally, totally agree with you. Hey, thank you for doing this with me.

• 3:01:24Speaker 02

  Uh, hey, man. It was a, it was a really good time. It's like, it's a very, um, there's nothing like, I was already reading his book and going down a rabbit hole of these things, so I was really glad you gave me an excuse to be obsessive and then have people write weird comments on my litterbox reviews, being like, "Why are you watching all these movies? Are you going on big picture?"

• 3:01:42Sean Fennessey?

  Big picture when?

• 3:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, uh, you know, I assumed I would come back to talk about Beekeeper 2, the B-quel. Like, you know, we could do three hours on that.

• 3:01:50Sean Fennessey?

  The door is open. Did I tell you that I saw the trailer for it in April?

• 3:01:54Speaker 02

  I mean, I-

• 3:01:55Sean Fennessey?

  It was pretty fucking good.

• 3:01:57Speaker 02

  When I saw The Beekeeper, and I talked about it on Hitmakers Podcast, I saw it opening night, and me and a bunch of my friends went to Burbank 16, and we had such a good time that when it ended, I was in the lobby, and someone walked up to me and said, "Hey, congratulations." And I said, "What do you mean?" They're like, "That's your movie, right?" And I was like, "No." They're like, "Then what was going on with you guys?"

• 3:02:15Sean Fennessey?

  Why are you talking about this?

• 3:02:16Speaker 02

  You know, we were having such a good time watching it opening night, that it's that L.A. thing where you're like, "Oh, those people must have worked on it. Why would they like this movie so much?" But I, I walked out of it, and my only complaint was, "Why didn't he unleash bees? Why didn't he use bees?" And I've heard a rumor that he uses bees this time.

• 3:02:33Sean Fennessey?

  No spoilers, no spoilers. Hey, I just wanted to say thank you to Elisa, and Curtis, and Kim, and all of the fine folks at the Criterion Channel who helped this project get out into the world. I hope people are watching it and interested in it. It's like, some of it is the least, is like, the easiest sell of all time. King of New York is such an easy movie to sell. Even if you haven't seen it, it's so magical. And some of the movies are a little bit more challenging, but absolutely worth your time. And thank you to Abel Ferrera for just having such a profound, deep, and interesting body of work that gave us a chance to chat.

• 3:03:04Speaker 02

  It was definitely worth it, even though it was difficult for me to watch them. So, the fact that they have the ease of use, that they can just log into the Criterion Channel, and they're all just sitting there, and you can click on them, they would probably have an even better time than I did, so.

• 3:03:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and I'm sorry for those, that short number of movies. You know, The Funeral is not in this package, Mary is not in this package.

• 3:03:24Speaker 02

  I watched The Funeral on YouTube.

• 3:03:26Sean Fennessey?

  I have a, I have an old DVD of The Funeral, which is one of the only ways to watch it on physical media. I mean, Go, Go, Tales is a movie we didn't talk about, but is not in this package.

• 3:03:34Speaker 02

  I could not track that one down.

• 3:03:35Sean Fennessey?

  It's the single hardest movie of his to find right now. Hopefully, one day, somebody will excavate it. But, um, there's a whole host of movies that you can check out right now. Thank you. Okay, thanks to Ben David. Thank you to the god, Abel Ferrera. Thanks to Jack Sanders, our producer, for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanagh for his production support. As I said, Practical Magic 2, Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger. Yasi Solik on the podcast again. What else? What are you bringing? What are you bringing to the table? Come on, hit me. Will we get some great news over the weekend? Something dynamite to talk about?

• 3:04:12Amanda Dobbins?

  I hope so.

• 3:04:13Sean Fennessey?

  I hope so, too. We'll see you then.