RE-AIR: Conversations: Dragons! Witches! Werewolves! The Ancient Supernatural w/ Daniel Ogden

This episode originally aired in October 2022! Liv speaks with professor and (prolific!) author Daniel Ogden about all things Spooky! Find his many books on ancient werewolves, dragons, magic, and more wherever you get your books! Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So, check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:43Speaker 01

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• 1:39Liv Albert?

  Oh, hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I'm your host, Liv, here with more of the spookiest of spookies, conversation edition. Today, I spoke with one of the biggest names in ancient spooky, Daniel Ogden. He is professor at Exeter in the UK, and we actually spoke because I had one of his PhD students on the show, Ryan Denson, to talk about all things sea monsters. You must remember that one from earlier this year. It was great. So when he suggested I speak with Professor Ogden, I was eager, not least because I own like four of his books and used my favorite one, The Source Book of Magic and All Things Supernatural, not the official title, that's in the episode description, but I used it

• 2:20Liv Albert?

  in so many of this month's episodes, let alone the past spooky seasons that I've done. So today, we spoke about all things supernatural, werewolves and witches and dragons. We dived into it all, and I am obviously very excited for you all to listen. One note is that we did record this shortly after I spoke with Ryan about sea monsters, so we're talking like March. So it's been a while, just to explain a couple of things mentioned, but obviously, I had to hang on to this episode until October, because spooky. So, sit back and enjoy all things spooky and supernatural.

• 3:13Liv Albert?

  Conversations, Dragons, Witches, Werewolves: The Ancient Supernatural with Daniel Ogden.

• 3:35Liv Albert?

  So I would love to hear about really anything when it comes to the supernatural world in the ancient world, particularly, I think, like werewolves and witchcraft and dragons as well. So, I mean, I'll guide the conversation, or I'm just happy to also have you talk. So what interests you in this side of the ancient world? Because I do think it's kind of unique and different from the more, sort of, the typical access points.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Um, I think it's just...

• 4:04Speaker 02

  It's just me, really.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  This is my kind of stuff. I mean, I, I, I mean, my, when I started my graduate work, my, my research, it was in a very sort of sober, well, yeah, pretty sober, serious area. My PhD was actually on illegitimacy in ancient Greece. That was the, that was the sort of, I suppose, kind of fashionable, sort of social historical

• 4:34Speaker 02

  subject in the, in the, the late eighties, the early nineties, you know, when I was doing it.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  And I, I, I enjoyed that work, but I guess it wasn't really me, you know. What, I mean, what I'd always loved since being a kid was

• 4:55Speaker 02

  horror, certain, certain kinds of science fiction.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  And, and, but the things that I, I, I was particularly interested in was hammer horror movies. Of course, I didn't get to see them until I was quite a bit older. But even from being a small child, I was fascinated by, you know, that, those particular versions of Dracula and Frankenstein and the mummy, that kind of stuff.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  And so that's it. So, so, you know, I mean, the simple answer to this, to your question is that I'm just looking for that kind of stuff in the ancient world.

• 5:30Liv Albert?

  I, I mean, and it's, that's something that's very fascinating to me as well. I, I mean, I sort of just appreciate horror generally. My version of loving horror is a lot of like slasher movies from the nineties and, and weird things like that, supernatural. And so basically, as soon as I found out that I could talk about werewolves in the ancient world, it was like a very, very big thrill for me. So, I mean, I think, and I hope it's all right that I want to start with werewolves. I know you're, you know, you're most recently talking about dragons. But. Werewolves are so interesting because I just kind of, I guess I had no real grasp that they, the concept of that was so ancient. And, and like, why do you, I mean, why do you think

• 6:15Liv Albert?

  that that existed back then, this idea of being transformed into a wolf as, I mean, I don't, I'm not phrasing a question very well, but I basically just want to hear more about why you think werewolves happened in the ancient world.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Well, it's, it is a good question, and I'm not, I'm not sure I have a definitive answer.

• 6:34Liv Albert?

  Fair enough.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  But, I, I, I mean, it's often said that, well, wolves are often regarded as, in a sense, the antithesis to man. As, as man is the super civilized, the wolf is the super wild. I suppose, I mean, you could say that there are many animals that could be regarded as super wild. So why, why not talk about men turning into them instead, if you want to play with that, that polarity, you know, if you want to think about, well, you know, that, that polarity between wildness and civilization. They are, but I suppose, I mean, wolves being fairly

• 7:16Speaker 02

  big animals are sort of almost kind of man-sized somehow. You can sort of understand, as it were, the, the transition between, between the two. It's a bit harder to think of, you know, the transition between a, I don't know, a man and a stoat, for example, isn't it? You know, they're sort of, they're the right size. But as I suggested in the werewolf book, I think it's actually rather, it's not quite as simple as that. It's not just that wolves are super wild and, you know, humans are super civilized. Because if you think about it, and actually, I think most people who are interested in wolves these days would think about it like, like this. In their own way, wolves are super civilized.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Aren't they? I mean, they have their own, their own packs, their own communities, their own hierarchies. They're very cooperative, um collaborative animals. And of course, they're basically, they're basically doggies, you know. You know, and, you know, and indeed, you know, in the right circumstances, they're rather friendly, uh animals. Um, so, so again, I, I, I think that that's, that's part of the mix too. That there is already that, there is already that sort of bridge there between man and wolf. Um, and again, as, as I, again, as I do say, say in the book, uh, in a sense, um. A wolf is already in itself a werewolf. Because it does have the wild aspect, but it also has the civilized, man-like aspect.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  You know, so I think, so I think, I think that's the reason of choice, if you, if you're thinking about. What, what animals might a man turn into, um. Or what sort of problems might we think through, you know, um. With this sort of polarity between, between man and wolf. Uh, again, I do think the wolf sort of particularly lends itself to that, uh, to that, to that sort of thinking.

• 9:09Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. Uh, I mean, there are, I mean, there, I mean, that, that's, that's, that's my basic take. Um, I think in fairness, I should say that probably other people would probably give you other answers. Uh, I mean, one answer you might, you might given, um, would be that. It's all to do with social organisation. Um, and that there's an ancient tradition, ancient custom, and sort of international. Almost universal, I think, um, custom of, of young bands of warriors being sort of conceptualised as wolf packs. Um, and so, and so this is, this is basically the, the origin of it, the other way, the young man becomes the wolf to be this sort of.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  To be this sort of marauding warrior, and that's a phase he grows out of, of course. So you have the man turning into the wolf and then returning from the wolf to to personhood, I suppose, manhood. Again, it's all, I mean, rites of transitions are in there somewhere, you know, the idea that you're going to temporarily visit an opposite status and then return from that opposite status to to to to transition. So, I mean, a lot of people still believe that kind of stuff about about werewolves, you know. I mean, there's something in it, there's something in it. But I mean, I think, I mean, I I think, and we do have a bit of that in in in

• 10:38Speaker 02

  the ancient world, particularly in the case of Arcadia, it seems. But I think, I mean, I think as far as the ancient world is concerned, the notion that young warriors are werewolves, I think that's a sort of metaphorical development from an already existing sort of folk belief in werewolves.

• 11:01Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, it it's interesting to me specifically because I focus so much on mythology broadly. And there's so much transformation in mythology, but there's something so different about the idea of transformation when it comes to werewolves. You know, like, I mean, the gods are always transforming into animals to do various things, good and bad. But the idea of like, humans transforming in this much more like explicitly wild kind of way, like when humans are, the idea of a human transforming into a werewolf, it's like them becoming something else entirely versus

• 11:42Liv Albert?

  the idea of a god transforming. And very much, I think, we're to assume that, you know, when Zeus transforms into a swan, he's still Zeus, he just looks like a swan. Whereas werewolves are so different, it's much more, it feels like, just like the fear in the human psyche of becoming a monster, I guess.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Yes, although they're not, they're not, again, they're not necessarily quite as different as as you would think. Yes, certain, certain werewolf stories.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, entail that the the man transformed into a wolf is a real wolf, or you know, behaves like a wolf.

• 12:19Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Obviously, you have that with the Patronius werewolf story, if you know that, where the soldier having transformed starts attacking the flocks that the militia keeps. And I suppose, I suppose the the werewolf latent in in the Aesop story, again, who who who is potentially going to devour the innkeeper, um, is also is also of that sort. But then again, if you go back to the Arcadian material, um, again, the the belief is that, again, these young men having, they transform into wolves for a fixed time before they can recover their, I say their their personhood.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Um, but there's this notion that if they abstain from human flesh within that time, uh, sorry, well, well, the notion is that if they abstain from human flesh within that time, then they're able to transform back um, uh, to to to being human again. So that, um, and I think the the assumption is that in fact they all do. Um, so that that uh, that sort of builds a picture of a werewolf who's actually, um, rather civilized werewolf, I mean, still a man inside, as it were, uh, with or with some degree of human consciousness. Um, and that and that sort of ties in very neatly with the earliest medieval werewolves, you know. So this is so after about four hundred B C, when when um,

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Augustine is talking about werewolves, after that, there's a kind of gap, you know, of uh, of uh, eight hundred years or so, until we start hearing about werewolves again, and typically in in, well, first in French and Norse sources. Um, and in those, in the in the French sources, again, those wer- those werewolves are sort of unfortunate men, transformed into wolves, but still retaining their their their human consciousness inside.

• 14:13Liv Albert?

  Mm.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Um, so again, there's there's not much emphasis on that on in in the the ancient sources, which are.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Quite sparse, as I'm sure you realize. But I think, again, cer- certain ones of them do do entail the notion that the the man transformed into the wolf is still a is still a man and can behave, you know, in a fairly civilized way.

• 14:37Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. I think that just makes it so much more interesting, like the idea that there are so many different variations on what it is actually like to be a werewolf in in whatever way that that there are these like, not options, but these alternatives where where you're either monstrous or just a person in a wolf. It really adds to the just the fascination that that the stories were really developed in the first place, that they they have these all different types and and, you know, span so many different generations and, you know, and centuries and things.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Yes, I agree. There's there's there's no there's no sort of one fixed pattern, even the ancient world. Um, you know, I mean, each each werewolf seems to, or each werewolf case seems to be a little bit different. You know, yeah, I agree.

• 15:23Liv Albert?

  I just love the idea of these things, um, you know, crossing time so much and just staying in the realm of imagination in all these different ways. Because even today, you have stories of werewolves that are good or bad or or a little bit in between and and just the idea that that that the story is that old is is so exciting.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:43Liv Albert?

  Just the idea that that uh, that the ancient world, while they were, you know, so involved in in mythology and everything, but then had had all these sort of separate and much more human ideas of of transformation and and generally like the supernatural, I suppose, in general, um, is really just broadly interesting to me. One of the other um, books of yours that I love to use, which I realize is probably like a different, um, I don't know how it goes writing these things, but the the source book that you have on just generally magic and everything is has been such a wealth of information for me because just the idea that that witches and witchcraft and magic and the supernatural broadly uh, is is utilized in so many

• 16:28Liv Albert?

  different ways i- is really interesting. Um, and again, I'm trying to find a question within that statement. But I suppose, you know, well, actually, you know what, one thing that that really interested me, I spoke to somebody uh, last year about this. Is the differences between the the ancient Greek ideas of witches and witchcraft and the Roman, because to me, this is speaking broadly, but they feel very distinct. You know, we have women like Circe and Medea, and then we have women like, um, oh, I'm gonna forget her name, but the

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Canidia, Eryx, there would be the obvious ones, Meroe, Nephilim, they'd be the obvious ones to mention, yeah.

• 17:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah, Canidia is who I was thinking of specifically, but but all of those I've, you know, researched, this was a while back now, but but they're such distinct types of characters. And it seems to me that the Greeks really found like a almost like a more positive interest in the idea of these kind of characters, whereas the Romans felt the need to make them like a bit more either ridiculous or dangerous or just it's very, it's interesting, the differences. Do you have thoughts on what that comes from?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I mean, well, I think actually Greek witches, uh, and I mean, I know evidence for Greek witches is is really quite limited. It's it's not much more than the traditions of Circe and Medea. And there's a whole bunch of people out there who don't think Circe's even a witch anyway. But, um, uh, yes, I think, well, I think the big difference in the end is that, you know, Roman witches tend to be old hags and tend and tend to be, well, I've used the word Gothic is a bit of a vague word, isn't it? Going back to my Hammer Horror days, really. They tend to have a sort of Gothic atmosphere. Um, they're

• 18:24Speaker 02

  sort of blood thirsty, they're particularly blood thirsty and involved with body horror and things like that, you know. But, you know, we shouldn't, we shouldn't sort of let our eye leave the ball on this. I mean, the Greek, Greek witches are can be pretty bad. I mean, let's not forget that Circe seemingly transforms all visitors to her island into animals. And, um, I mean, let's just think this one through.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  She turns, obviously famously, Odysseus's crew into pigs and herds into styes. Now, what's that about? What's that far? I mean, she's not just keeping them as pets, I think. You know, I mean, there's only one thing, sheep you can keep for wool, cows you can keep for milk, chickens you can keep for eggs. There's only one purpose of a pig in a farm, and that's to be eaten. So she's planning to eat them, right? So that that already makes, you know, we think of sexy Cersei, but that already makes her look a whole lot worse, doesn't it? And we can go further than that. Um, I think the indications are

• 19:37Speaker 02

  that every animal on the island is a human being that's been transformed. Um, it's not immediately apparent when, when, uh, when we first hear about the wolves and the, uh, the wolves and the lions, the wolves and lions that surround her house. But late, but later on in the text, it does become clear that those also are transformed human beings.

• 19:57Liv Albert?

  Uh huh.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Now, if you think back again, before Odysseus has actually even seen, I think, Cersei's house, or at least anyway, suddenly approached it, he's found this big stag which he's, which he's shot. And he's taken back to his crew at the, at the beach and they've eaten it. So not only is Cersei eating people, she's tricking perfectly innocent people into cannibalism. So, you know, so she is pretty much a monster. And let's turn to Medea. I mean, let's not forget that Medea's first significant act really is to, um, well, yeah, I mean, first significant, well, after, after the, the, the, um, the gold fleece episode itself, her first significant act is actually to murder her own brother and chop him up into little bits.

• 20:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  And, uh, and again, you know, uh, so the modern perspectives on the Medea play really, you know, have a lot to answer for.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Even though she's murdering her children, she comes across as really sympathetic to us, doesn't she?

• 21:00Liv Albert?

  Uh huh.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  You know, and she's, I mean, you would say that within ancient Greek myths, she's almost like a feminist icon. You know, I mean, she, you know, she, you know, she, you know, she takes on a, a cheating husband and and sorts him out, doesn't she? But, but yeah, I do, you know, but one has to um imagine, I think that an ancient audience would have, would have, you know, they certainly certainly one has to be sympathetic to a certain extent to Madea in the play. There's there's very little interest in it if, if, if one isn't sympathetic to her. But I think, you know, those, those, that, that child murder at the end has to figure rather large, more, more, more largely.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  You know, in the ancient imagination of her and the judgment of her than it does for us. Um, so they're pretty bad.

• 21:52Liv Albert?

  They are, but they're complex. That's what's so interesting about them is like they're bad, but they're, they're bad has complexities. Because even Cersei, like she transforms all these people. The implication is to eat them absolutely. But you can also see a way in which she's doing it as protection for herself and her island. You know, she sees these people as a threat. And while that's not a good way of necessarily handling a threat, you can see maybe where she's coming from. And I feel similarly with Madea, like less so about her brother. Um, but with the children in Euripides, like Euripides really sets it up as though you can see her

• 22:33Liv Albert?

  thought processes where she's like going through everything that has happened to her, all of her options as this woman who is not Greek, um, who is living in Corinth and, and really has minimal options when Jason decides to leave her.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:50Liv Albert?

  Because she and her children will have nothing. They'll just be like thrown out. And, and so you can almost see, and again, like this is not, you know, a, a decision that is, that we're meant to think is a good one. But you can see how she gets there where she almost feels like it's a kindness to her children versus having them with her, just like left out in the dust because of Jason. And so like in both cases. That's what interested me where, you know, they do bad things. Absolutely. There's no like redeeming their actual actions. But you can see where they're coming from. Whereas with the Roman, and I'm not as familiar with the Roman, I'll admit.

• 23:29Liv Albert?

  But they feel a lot more just like, almost not, not necessarily comedically, but like over the top evil, over the top bloody and gory and over and just like bizarre almost.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, yes. And, uh, uh, yes, I mean, there's a little, well, I was gonna say there's little attempt to give Canidia much of a backstory or to make her, to make her sympathetic.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Although, um, uh, I mean, there's quite a lot of humor, I suppose, sardonic humor in one of Horace's poems about her, the one in which he claims to have been subject to her binding love magic. A ricktho too, Lucan's ricktho, you know, this great sort of necromantic witch.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Again, she's not completely one dimensional.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  There are a couple of, there are a couple of little touches in that, in that, you know, as he would say, bizarrely over the top portrait that I like. One is that when Sextus Pompey first seeks her out to perform a reanimation for him, or at least some sort of divination, it turns out to be a, a, a reanimation.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  You know, he, he, he tells her these, he's, you know, he's sort of right because, you know, he's heard that she's the best. And she's, she's clearly flattered. She's clearly touched by that, you know, so there's that little, little very human element to it. And then also when she's threatening the gods in order to get

• 25:06Speaker 02

  them to make the ghost re-inhabit the body so that she can reanimate the corpse. One of the threats that she makes is to expose the goddess Hecate before the other gods without her makeup on.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Um, you know, that's, what sort of a threat is that? I mean, it's all about, it's all about the, the, like, the, I don't know, the, the, the horrors of, of, of petty bourgeois.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  You know, middle age, isn't it? I mean, you know, what, what, but it's, but it, but it's humour, isn't it? Because it's just, it's just humour. It's, there's lots of humour there. So again, Eric, so he's a complex figure.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  But I've recently argued, again, this is quite, um, this is probably quite an obscure book. So you may not, and it's a little, just a little book. You may not have seen it.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  I also, I've also recently published something called the strict witch. And, um, this is a little book, just about thirty thousand words on that phenomenon.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  And that phenomenon, to be brief, is a phenomenon of old women who transform themselves. Well, who fly by night, either by transforming themselves into owls or by some sort of soul projection. Uh, and in either owl form or soul form, they penetrate a domestic house.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  There's usually some sort of issue as to how they get past the door, but I think, you know, that's the challenge. Um, and they attack babies within, either stealing the baby or

• 26:42Speaker 02

  attacking the baby, stealing organs from the baby, sometimes surreptitiously stealing organs from the baby. So you don't realise they stole it. And then getting out again, uh, leaving the baby to sort of, well, either leaving the baby dead or to fail slowly. Um, so that's quite, that's quite a phenomenon. And, um, we get that in, we get, we get, um, of the classical authors, we get Ovid and Petronius talking about these witches. And what they say is sort of nicely amplified by some medieval sources, which I won't go into. Um, but I think, I mean, that's a, that's, that, that was a distinctive phenomenon in Roman culture. That was kind of like the Roman answer to the Greek child killing demon, the lamia.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  And, um, uh, I mean, I mean, the, I mean, what the function of that sort of folk belief, so the strict witch. Um, is clearly, I think, to, to account for, you know, mass infant mortality. You know, um, if every other child is going to die within a few weeks of being born, you know, you need an explanation for it, don't you? But I think, I think that that idea.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  The notion of this strict, which is quite distinctive phenomenon, is what imbues the portraits of witches in Latin literature, in the poetry and the prose, and Apuleius too. I think that is what sort of gets into the mix there, and that's why they're suddenly, witches are all suddenly like old and bloodthirsty. I think they're basically, they've all been strictified, even if they're not specifically designated as stricts on an individual basis.

• 28:25Liv Albert?

  Hmm, that's really interesting. It sort of connects with what I had sort of thought of the Roman, the Latin witches, which is, they also, witches and comma, which is, that they also sound like a bit of a commentary on women and just the opinions of these writers and the culture on women broadly, because, I mean, even just the idea of a threat of like revealing a goddess without makeup on doesn't seem like something that a woman would ever write, you know, it very much feels like a man writing about a woman. And

• 29:08Liv Albert?

  I find that that very interesting. I think it says something about their like mindsets.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Well, yes, possibly. I suppose it's a man recognizing a peculiarly feminine anxiety, I suppose. Yeah, and blowing it up big, isn't it?

• 29:42Liv Albert?

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• 32:57Speaker 02

  Yes, well, I suppose, yes, it's hard, to be fair, it's hard not to look at these Roman portraits of witches and not think of them as being misogynistic. But I think, you know, yeah, and that's fair enough. I mean, I'm not going to recile from that. But one point I would want to make is that this concept of the strict witch in itself, which is influencing these portraits, I'm not sure that the concept of it in itself is misogynistic. Even though you're painting a picture of a distinctively female monster,

• 33:35Speaker 02

  a kind of anti-mother monster. Again, what is the social function of believing in strict witches, or on the Greek side, in child-killing demons? I think it is to explain otherwise inexplicable infant mortality, you know. And it seems to me, and if a strict witch or a child-killing demoness, Lamia, is not going to get the blame for a child dying, who is going to get the blame for a child dying? Isn't it better? Isn't it better to be blaming childkilling demons and and childkilling witches than to be than to be executing young mothers?

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Who've just lost their babies, you know, so.

• 34:23Liv Albert?

  Very true.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I think it's a, I think it's a, you know, it's not as not quite as cut and dried as it thinks, you know, as it as it seems. And sometimes these these sorts of belief can can actually um work in women's favor. Uh, and not always, not always to their to their detriment. And indeed, I would say that, I mean. Probably who who thinks more about who who in ancient society cares most, uh, frets most, is most anxious about infant mortality? I would suggest it is the mothers in fact. So probably these ideas, these ideas of, say, strict witches and and childkilling demons probably originate, I would say, and sort of belong with women themselves in the first instance.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  So again, so I'm a bit, I'm a bit reluctant to to just to just to just to say in a sort of very reductive way, this is a misogynistic idea. Yes, it's it's it's an idea that we may well find being used misogynistically in our in our in our male authors.

• 35:24Liv Albert?

  That's the thing. It sounds like a little bit of of everything, um, because, I mean, certainly, I mean, even just the idea of if if. If babies are dying, if there is an issue with infant mortality and you have to explain it via a supernatural source, like. It seems obvious that that source would be feminine, but that certainly, you know, just fits the bill. Um, but then I I think it's it's similar, you know. You can have those ideas that are that are based in in not misogynist ideas that are just based in in sort of like. The more obvious choice um that then can get transformed into more misogynist ideals, like when it comes to the Latin authors who are.

• 36:08Liv Albert?

  Who are sort of having a lot of fun with these characters and and, you know, inventing their own versions, certainly. But that's very interesting, the idea of the connection with Lamia as well, because I I mean. I suppose I I I'm just constantly fascinated by the the explanations that the ancient people had to to account for tragedies and or just, you know, phenomena like like babies dying, you know, unexpectedly and and the idea that that the a concept of a of a child killing demon or a this witch, you know, is invented to sort of account for that is is interesting

• 36:52Liv Albert?

  and and and certainly refreshing that it doesn't mean that immediately the mothers are going to be blamed for, you know, killing an heir or something.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Sure, exactly.

• 37:02Liv Albert?

  It's it's fascinating to me that that, I guess, you know, witches in in ancient Greece then didn't get the same designation, like they had these very distinct ideas. And and Lamia too, like, you know, she she doesn't appear in a lot of of strict mythology, more of like this the folk idea like you're mentioning. And which is always interested me because she's an interesting character and sometimes she's one person and sometimes she's like a concept.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 37:32Liv Albert?

  Of these like demon characters. But I suppose the other thing that that occurred to me as well is Circe and Medea, the the most famous, if not the only, Greek witches are also explicitly divine in a way that the Roman witches seem much more, not necessarily mortal explicitly, but like down to earth, for lack of a better term.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you you have to really scrape around for for, shall I say, ordinary witches in the Greek world. I mean, I suppose we have the historical example of Theoris, who was, you know, accused of witchcraft in classical Athens.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  And Lucian, Lucian, again, second century A.D., going going quite late now, Greek author, does does does have some some witches talking together or rather than courtesans talking about a witch, I should say, they can use.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Again, one might think they live in the same world to a certain extent.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  But yes, it's, yes, it's pretty hard. It's pretty hard. And of course, there's always the problem of Symmeitha. You know, I mean, Symmeitha. Um, a- again, many people, I think, would argue that Symmeitha is not a witch, but she's sure, she's surely pretending to be a witch very hard, isn't she?

• 38:55Liv Albert?

  I don't think I'm familiar with her.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Oh, you're not familiar with Symmeitha? Oh, well, oh, that's all.

• 39:00Liv Albert?

  No, or if I am, I've forgotten.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Right. Oh, well, yeah. So this is, um, Theophrasus's second idyll. So, you know, Hellenistic Alexandrian literature, around about two, seven, five, some B C, something like that. Um, oh, it's a wonderful book. It's about a hundred lines, is it, uh, or so? Um, a very elaborate monologue by this young wo- young woman, she is a young woman, I think. Um, who has acquired a boyfriend, Delphus. Um, she says she was a virgin beforehand, um, but he's been with her for a few days or a few weeks. And he suddenly disappeared. He's not, he's not coming around anymore. Um, um, and with the help of her maid. So she's clearly not a completely destitute woman. I don't know what her, she seems to live on her own with her maid, but don't know what her, don't know what her source of income is.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Um, but together, they are, um. Uh, concocting, concocting a very elaborate love spell to get him back.

• 39:56Liv Albert?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Um, and we hear about all the details of this love spell as, as, as she speaks. Um, and she's throwing everything at him. So all sorts of love magic. Of a, of sorts that you would never find together in the same place usually. Everything is thrown together in this kind of haphazard way, you know, I, you know, you know, the, you know, with a, you know. Um, if a little is good, a lot is better principle. Um, and, uh, and it's, I, I, again, you know, in some ways, you know, it seems as though she knows a lot. You know, she's, you know, she has a lot of expertise about love magic, you know, when you line up what she's doing with. The Greek magical papyri and, and other, other literary texts.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Well, possibly, but it's it's also possible that her knowledge is kind of superficial. And, you know, she's just, as it were, sort of. Play, you know, she's an amateur, playing the game as best she can. Um, but whatever she is, I mean, I think nonetheless, it's that that that that poem is splendid evidence for for witchcraft. You know, and ideas about witches, you know, whether Sima for herself is actually a witch or not.

• 41:06Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  You know.

• 41:07Liv Albert?

  I realized as soon as you started describing it, it's been recommended to me, so it's on my list of two reads. So I'm glad to have that description as well.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  The source book, actually, so you don't need to go very far.

• 41:18Liv Albert?

  Oh, great. Perfect. That source book is so big. I've made my way through like certain chunks of it for episodes, but there's always more to get through. So one thing that that Ryan mentioned when we were speaking about sea monsters and the thrill of those. Um, is he was mentioning, you know, ideas of dragons. Uh, and the connection to the real world. But I'm curious about just because dragons feel so um separate, I suppose, from. From real life in a way that, you know, as we were discussing sea monsters, you can really see where they're getting the idea of sea monsters from. Just a lack of knowledge of what exists within the sea and what they can, you know, discover about it.

• 42:02Liv Albert?

  Um, but dragons, you know, specifically like Apollo and Delphi and and that situation feels so separate. So I'm just curious about the connections between real things.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yes, um, that is a good question. Um, I think the first thing to say is that the ancient Greek word for dragon is drakon. Uh, and that goes into Latin as Draco, and then I suppose English gets it through medieval French probably. Um, as dragon. Um, but drakon didn't mean quite the same thing as dragon does to us. Um, drakon basically means a jolly big snake.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Um, uh, with, uh, uh, well, this is my sort of the definition that I've come, come to use for it over the years. Um, a, a big snake and something more.

• 42:55Liv Albert?

  Um.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Hmm. And that's something more is where usually there's a sort of supernatural dimensional context to it. Um, or sometimes the more can be much more sort of truly physical, you know, an extra part. So for example, many drontes are, are portrayed on Greek vases with beards, hu- human style beards. Um, for example, um, uh, or they're often sort of compounded into with, with other animals to make, you know, make. Um, compound monsters of, of, of, of various sorts. Um, so obsecubrus has a, has a dragon tail and dragon hair. People don't often realise that, dragon, dragon hair.

• 43:37Liv Albert?

  I love his dragon mane, his little snakes in the mane.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. Yes. And, uh, obviously, you know, Medusa has the dr- there's a drontes on her head. The Kimira has this dragon tail. Um.

• 43:50Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Um, so, yeah, but, but, but I'd say, but a, a dracoon could just be a big snake. I say, and the minimum sort of requirement is a kind of supernatural context. Um, and so the serpents of Asclepius, for example, were drontes.

• 44:07Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Um, and, um, there is evidence, we've got to work hard with it, but there is evidence for the maintenance of actual snakes. Um, if, uh, if your listeners are herpetologically minded, uh, they were probably four lined snakes, a variety of rat snake. Um, there is evidence for them being maintained in, in temples. Um, uh, where they, where they were used as, uh, Asclepius, Asclepius's temples and other healing temples, where they were used as part of the, part of the healing process and, um, you know, uh, would be invited to lick or kiss the patients. Um. Yeah.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, well, you see, it affects different people in different ways, doesn't it? Um, I'd quite like it myself, I think. But, well, I mean, four line, four line snakes are harmless and actually, um, well, I think, I think friendly would be the wrong word, but I've seen them described as phlegmatic. They don't mind humans mauling them, you know, so. Um, but, but anyway, so, so, so, so there's a sense of, you know, drachyotes, some kinds of drachyotes were, were real animals, very much part of, not, not necessarily everyday life, but part of real life, you know? Um, and so, um, it's really just a matter of, you know, just imagining,

• 45:38Speaker 02

  uh, how far though, how far the dracoon that you know, I won't say in love, but the dracoon that you know, how, how far that idea can be stretched, you know, what other varieties of it might there be, have there been? You know, so, um, yeah, um, and then in terms of like sort of more monstrous, um, uh, fantastical creatures, I mean, drachyotes and, and others. Uh, again, one of the, one of the, um, I'm su- I'm sure, um, that, um, this must be a big book for you as it is for me. Um, Adrienne Meyer's First Fossil Hunters. Um, in fact, I have to say, if you're looking, if you're looking for recommendations to come on your podcast,

• 46:24Speaker 02

  I would put her number one.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  She's on my list. That, that is, I mean, a splendid, fascinating book, and she's a splendid communicator as well. Um, and, um, one of the amazing things that I learned from that book is that, I'm trying to think of, I'm trying to think of, I want to say primeval, but that's a bit of a, that's a bit of a broad word. Um, well, let's just say prehistoric mega fauna fossils. Um, I'm sure there's a better word than that, but anyway, um, were found in the archaeological remains of the Temple of Hera on Samos, the Great Temple of Hera on Samos. You know, um, I'm not sure whether it was specifically one of these, um, uh, mega giraffes that used to exist,

• 47:12Speaker 02

  but only something like that. So anyway, so the bones of a, of a massive, strange creature. Um, and you've got to ask, how did they get there? You know, so clearly some ancient Greek at some point dug these out of the hillside somewhere or found them lying around and, you know, said, well, this is a, these are the bones of something pretty amazing, pretty special. Um, uh, uh, and, you know, all sorts of stories could be, could be spun around it. So I'm sure on some occasions, bones like this were the bones of great drakontes from the past. On other occasions, they would be identified as human bones, I suppose. Again,

• 47:55Speaker 02

  we hear about, as you probably were, we hear all sorts of stories about the discovery of the bones of heroes and heroes were imagined to be supersized. So that works, you know. Um, and they're given special, special treatment. Um, but again, but, but what, what is going on in, in your mind? If you're, again, if you're living in the ancient world and you don't have, you know, you're not a, um, you're not a Darwinian, you know, you don't have a concept of, you know, of the, as it were, the historical dimension of these creatures, you know, for you, the earth is always, pretty much always going to have been as it is now. So what, how do these creatures fit into it? There you are. I mean, there is your proof, there is your incontrovertible, incontrovertible

• 48:39Speaker 02

  evidence that monsters of the sort that you hear about in myth did exist. If they don't exist now, they did exist, you know? Um, so, uh, yeah. Um, uh, so, uh, yes, I don't think it's too hard really for the, it was too hard for the ancient Greeks to, to make, um, these drakontes real for themselves.

• 49:01Liv Albert?

  Right. I, I'm love the idea of, of finding some kind of bones and then coming up with the idea for the chimera, because it's one of my favorite creatures. It's just so bizarre.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:13Liv Albert?

  And certainly it could have also just been imagination based on, on other things that they'd found. But I just like the idea of them finding some bones and being like, well, I think this is a lion, but maybe there's also a goat's head and, and a snake involved.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, the goat, I mean, the goat is the tricky part, isn't it? Of course, it's, in a sense, the goat is the indispensable part because chimera means goat. So it's almost like it started with the goat and the, the, the other bits that it was look more useful. Like the lion and the snake, they may be the optional extras.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  But, I mean, again, well, of course, I'm always promoting and urging the importance of Drakontes. But I do think, I mean, having mentioned the Chimera, I do think the dragon, all this, just a tiny bit, it's just a tail, as with Cerberus. Although it's only a tiny sort of proportion of the monster, in many ways, it's the most important part, and it's kind of like the business end. Because why is the Chimera terrible? Because it goes around burning everywhere up. It's a fire-breathing monster, it goes around lame waste landscapes.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  How does it have the capacity to breathe fire? Well, that has to come. Even if it's breathing fire out of its lion mouth, not its snake mouth, that ability has to come from the snake element, it seems to me. Because, again, the notion that, I should have, perhaps I should have started somewhere else here, the notion that ancient dragons breathe fire, and that's very, very firmly established already in the ancient world, that is clearly, in an ancient context, an imaginative extrapolation of viper venom, you know, which is, which induces a burning sensation. I don't doubt at all that's where, that's why dragons breathe

• 51:08Speaker 02

  fire, because they're like big vipers. And so the Chimera, to go back to the Chimera, breathes fire because it has that snake tail. Cerberus, similarly, I would say, I mean, again, one of the lesser myths of Cerberus, but my personal favourite, is that when Heracles dragged him out of the underworld, bear in mind, he'd been born in the underworld, he'd never seen daylight before. So, big tough dog as he was, he was terrified. And what does a terrified dog do? He threw up.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  And he threw up on a harmless plant called the aconite and his vomit or his slather transformed that plant into the most supposedly, the most poisonous plant of the ancient world, the aconite. Again, so where is that venomousness coming from? Again, it has to be not his doggy element, but his snake element. And then if we go to Medusa again, what is her sort of, you know, USP, her characteristic, you know, weapon? Of course, as you know, it's freezing people, isn't it? Into stone. And it's not true, apparently, but there is this widespread folk

• 52:26Speaker 02

  belief, very, very widespread international folk belief, that snakes hypnotize their prey before eating them and freeze, freeze their prey. I mean, I think it's probably often the case that a rabbit seeing a snake just, just does in fact freeze as a sort of defense mechanism to avoid being seen. Especially snakes sort of see movement more easily than, you know, fix things. But anyway, there is that belief. And it seems to me that the reason that Medusa and the Gorgons can, can freeze people into stone is because that's again, that's another snake capacity that's been, you know, built up, magnified and built up. So although snakes are

• 53:10Speaker 02

  a sort of relatively, relatively small proportion of these three monsters, as I say, I think that they're the key bits, really. They're the, they're the, they're the things that give them their, their killer, their killer qualities.

• 53:22Liv Albert?

  Yeah, that's really interesting. I wondered too about like paralytical qualities of snake venom. I don't know enough, but it, it seems to me that that could be connected to Medusa as well.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yes. Well, that's a good point. Yes. Cause snake venom, I think, yes, it can, it can, it can paralyze, can't it too? So yeah, so that may well be part of the story. Yes, indeed. Yes.

• 53:43Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I'm curious about the myths that involve the planting of the teeth afterwards. And I know that that comes from like Oryxthani and just, you know, being born of the earth. But in terms of the snake value, is there anything there?

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't, I don't know if there's anything distinctively snakey about that. It is weird, isn't it? That we get this. Um, this motif in two different places. We both get it in Thebes when Cadmus has killed uh, the dragon, the Dragon of Ares. And then we get it again over in Colchis. Um.

• 54:25Liv Albert?

  Hmm. They're two very different examples. Like they're ones like growing the new Thebans to help Cadmus.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:32Liv Albert?

  And then one is like the people that Jason has to fight. So I find that interesting as well, that they're very distinct in terms of like the function of the people that grow.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, well, again, they're both warriors. They're both bunches of warriors, aren't they? And actually Cadmus does have to deal with the Theban sewn men. Um.

• 54:49Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  He, he, again, he has to throw this stone in amongst them so that they start fighting themselves. I mean, I suppose the notion is that they can fight him otherwise. So maybe it's, maybe it's not.

• 54:58Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Quite so different. Um.

• 55:01Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  But, um, but we are told actually that when Athene gathered up the teeth for Cadmus to sew, I mean, gather the teeth out of the jaws of the Dragon of Ares.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  She kept half of them back and gave them to Eet. So, so, so those, so those, those sewn warriors over in Colchis are, I mean, they come from the same place.

• 55:23Liv Albert?

  Um. Talking about that.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, well, I'll say something more about.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  No, no, I'll say, I'll, I'll talk about Thebes first. Um.

• 55:33Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  One thing that interests me about that particular story is that, um,

• 55:41Speaker 02

  there are different traditions about Cadmus. Cadmus is attributed with discovering or inventing a lot of different things, including alphabets. He's also credited with the discovery of metal and the invention of mining.

• 55:56Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Now, Ben, now, think about that in connection with, um, uh, with, uh, well, two facts. Normally, normally he is said to have killed the dragon with a stone.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Um, and then of course the sewn men famously grow out of the ground, already wearing arms. And I can't help feeling that that is another way of telling the story of Cadmus's discovery of metal. He kills the snake with a stone because metal doesn't yet exist. But then the teeth are sewn, warriors spring up, and there they are wearing armour. There is metal, there is metal coming out of the ground. Um, so in other words, so somehow that metal comes from the body of the dragon. Which is interesting. And again, you do, one tends to think about the metallicness of, of snake skin then, but. Um, but then going over to Colchis.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  It is weird, it is weird that, wh- why should half of these? Teeth be held back and then given to E E Ts? Um, it just doesn't really make sense. Um, so, I mean, the, um. Uh, I mean, the order of things as we have it, oh gosh, as I recall, in, um, in, in Apollonius's Argonautica. Is, yeah, so the first trial that Jason has with Aetes is to sew the teeth. That's right, so, yeah, is to, is to yoke the fiery balls. With which, which he then uses to sew. The teeth, the snake's teeth, the dragon's teeth into the ground. Then the armed men go up and then he has to fight the armed men.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Then he goes on to deal with the, the drakon, the dragon, another drakon that guards the golden fleece. Now, I have to say, it would make much more sense, wouldn't it? Within the Colchis story, if he dealt with the dragon first and then those armed men. Derived not from the teeth of some strange theban dragon all the way over there, but from the teeth of the Colchis dragon. Uh, and I must admit, I'm very tempted to believe that there was. This thing, this thing, the mythical lost version of the story, which we're talking about. There was a lost version of that story in which the, the, the accidents happened in a different order.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  And so dragon first, and dragon and Jason would have had to, would have had to kill it, I suppose. Rather than it just being sort of drugged by Medea.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  And then the teeth come from the dragon and are then sewn. And at that point, Jason has to, has to fight the, fight the armed warriors.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Which is exactly actually what happens in the 1963 movie, Jason and the Argonauts. Again, Ray Harryhausen changes that all around and, and to, to, to give it a much better, a much better logic.

• 58:59Liv Albert?

  And those great skeleton men.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  Exactly, yes. Yes, again, it's, it's, it's important to, yes, it is important, I'm afraid rather soberly and disappointingly to remind your, your listeners that those skeletons, they belong to Ray Harryhausen. And that the original sewn men are just, I'm afraid, rather boring ordinary men.

• 59:17Liv Albert?

  I know. It's too bad because the skeletons are incredible. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's really interesting. I, because there's also, we have that pottery of Jason like being spit out of the dragon too, right? So it, it, it certainly seems to suggest there's, there's a different tradition there, especially because Apollonius is writing so late. And we know that the general idea of the story of, of the Argonautica and the quest and everything is much older, but most of the details we have are, are from the Hellenistic period. So.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Well, I agree. Yes. I mean, for me, one of the big mysteries, actually, of ancient Greek literature and myth is where was the original Argonautica? Where, where, where did that brilliant, brilliant story?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Um, where was it originally kept?

• 1:00:10Liv Albert?

  Um.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  You know, and I mean, there are suggestions about sort of obscure lost epics like the like the like the the epic of Now Pactus, of which maybe eight words, I forget exactly how many, it's like eight words of life. You know, um, strange suggestions like this. Um, but it is a mystery, it is, it really is a mystery where that where that myth was was sort of kept and cherished. Uh, before it actually ended up in in Apollonius. Um. Uh, oh gosh, I was gonna say something else. What was that? No. Oh, yes. So yes, you mentioned that that wonderful, the the the Duras, the Duras cup.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Um, with um, with Jason, yeah, um, being, yeah, being thrown up again.

• 1:01:02Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Uh, here we come to dragons throwing things up, it's becoming a theme, isn't it? Being thrown up by the by the dragon, uh, which, and that's an episode which just simply does not um, appear at all in the literature.

• 1:01:15Liv Albert?

  Um.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  Um, and I mean, I do, I do have a theory about what's going on there. Um, I mean, why should, why should the dragon have to throw Jason up? Um, obviously, he's gonna be, he's gonna be thrown up, he's gonna live again, and he's gonna get the fleece. Um, so, you know, obviously, at one stage, it was looking very good for the dragon. Um, well, again, I come back to Apollonius of Rhodes. And yet again, um, um, and, uh, well, now I was gonna say, I want to rearrange his episodes. In fact, I don't need to rearrange sections.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  But, um, one of the episodes in that, um, so before Jason faces the fiery bulls and the armed warriors, one of the very distinctive memorable episodes in that is that Medea um, um, smears him all over with a, an invincibility lotion to protect him. Um, and it seems to me that actually that.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  Maybe the key to what's going on with the dragon spitting him spitting him out. Um, uh, I think maybe he's he is imbued with this invincibility lotion at this point too, or still. Um, and and so the dragon can't digest him. So even though it succeeds in swallowing him, he has to throw him up again. And as I say, he lives to fight another day. Um, that's my, that's my theory about about what's going on there.

• 1:02:52Liv Albert?

  Yeah, that, I mean, eh, given Jason is helped by Madea in very important and vital ways throughout. That certainly makes sense that it would be another one of her actions that that, you know, helps him get out of the dragon in whatever way. Because, yeah, he he does very little without her, without her help in the Argonautica.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Yes, he's always been sidelined. And if you if you look at the the late antique Orphic Argonautica, he's completely sidelined because Orpheus, basically Orpheus becomes the star of that. And Medea still has something to do, but Jason really is a third wheel. He's just just hanging around, doing not much.

• 1:03:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, he's interesting for that. Um, what Cadmus is is one of my favorites. And I'm realizing now it's been a really long time since I've actually like talked about him much on the podcast because because there's not, there's not a lot of like long winded. Um, evidence for his stories or surviving pieces, but I find him so fascinating because he was such an important hero, uh, like in terms of, you know, as you were saying, he brought the alphabet mythologically and and metal, which I wasn't aware of. And I I love that connection between the the stone and then the stone men growing up with with full armor on.

• 1:04:18Liv Albert?

  Um, but I'm just curious about, I suppose, this isn't a question so much as I just am interested in Cadmus and and always curious for more. But I wonder if you just have any thoughts on on him as a character, given he does have these important aspects, but but is lacking much in the way of any like, you know, long epic story like like the rest of the more famous heroes.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Um, well, not not really, I'm afraid. Um.

• 1:04:49Liv Albert?

  It was a stretch. We're not talking about him.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I mean, I'm sure there would have been, um, there would have been an awful lot of Thebes in the epic cycle. Um, and, um, yes, I mean, we do have a lot, an awful lot of sort of quite meaty Theban mythology still, don't we? Especially in tragedies. Um, but you're right. Yes, yes, Cadmus is a bit of a, Cadmus is a bit of a hole in that.

• 1:05:17Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. Well, and even from what I've heard about the, the like, missing Theban cycle is it, it does still seem to be more revolving around the Oedipus and the seven against Thebes bit. So all people who descended from Cadmus, but even still, it, it seems like in the the lost works that we know are lost, you know, versus everything else. Um, it still seems that he might be this kind of like missing character. And I just find him so fascinating for that, I guess, just because he, he does have really important things attached to him, but without any real story that we know of as either surviving or, or being missing.

• 1:05:54Liv Albert?

  Just like to theorize on Cadmus personally.

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, well, well, what we don't have is a, yeah, as you say, is a sort of meaty recreation, you know? So we don't have a, you know, a, a Homeric account of Cadmus. We don't, we don't have Cadmus in tragedy. We don't even have a, well.

• 1:06:14Liv Albert?

  He's in backup.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, yes, yes. Um, and then there's, and yes, yes, briefly, and there's quite an interesting reference to him there. Um, and obviously gets a bit of, gets a bit of Ovid, a nice bit of Ovid about him.

• 1:06:33Liv Albert?

  And Nonus is sort of the big one, but he's so, he's writing so late. Nonus is Dionysia.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  Well, you're a brave, you're a brave person if you can, if you can get through Nonus.

• 1:06:44Liv Albert?

  I've read all the Cadmus bits of that and it's mind blowing.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes, but you're right, you're right. He doesn't really come across as a personality somehow, does he?

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  But he is, yes, he is interesting. I mean, he's, I mean, I mean, not, not, not the least interesting fact about him is his, is his end, isn't it? How, how he ends up being transformed into a, into a dragon alongside, alongside Harmonia.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  You know, and one, one wonders why that is. What's that all about?

• 1:07:19Liv Albert?

  Particularly because his, his family is so cursed as well. So his, his family is so cursed and then they're turned into snakes. So they're almost not cursed is just a, something I find quite interesting.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, in part, it might be

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  that he has to make further compensation for killing the dragon, as it were, by sort of becoming a dragon in its place. But you, but then you have to wonder about Harmonia. Why does Harmonia have to change too, you know?

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  And what happened between, I mean, how, how is it that Cadmus could kill Ares' son, the dragon?

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  But then gets to marry Ares' daughter Harmonia?

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  What, you know, again, what's going on there? I mean, yes, I mean, well, I mean, the, I mean, the psychology I'd like to, to see in all this is, is actually Ares' psychology.

• 1:08:14Liv Albert?

  That's, I mean, that's something I wonder about a lot generally. Ares is interesting. Well, and, and I, Harmonia is, is the reason I developed an interest in Cadmus, because I find her so fascinating. She's basically the only goddess who is, you know, a goddess on both sides of, by, both her parents are incredibly important, like both Olympians. And yet she lives her whole life as a mortal with Cadmus. And I just think there must be some kind of reasoning there that we don't have, some kind of background, because that's fascinating to me.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes, I hadn't thought of that.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  But sure, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and again, and again, that almost sort of intensifies the question as to why she has to end up as a dragon, doesn't it?

• 1:09:02Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm, exactly. Yeah, like, why is she not immortal? There's never an explanation for for why she would be living as a mortal and be able to, you know, that she doesn't get, you know, apotheicized like Heracles or anyone else, given that she is like, she's equivalent to Eros in terms of parentage.

• 1:09:20Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:09:21Liv Albert?

  But then she has this whole mortal story and yeah, she and she and Cadmus are my passion project. So I'm just constantly looking for more about them.

• 1:09:32Liv Albert?

  Well, I mean, this has been so incredibly fascinating. I mean, I'm thrilled to have have learned so much about these witches and werewolves and dragons and snakes and and also Cadmus. So thank you for indulging me on my Cadmus and Harmonia talk.

• 1:09:47Liv Albert?

  Um, yeah, I really appreciate you speaking with me today. Thank you so much. Um, is there anything you'd like to share with my listeners in terms of of, you know, your books or your work at all?

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  Um, well, um, yes, it'll be a long time before

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  before I produce another book, I'm afraid. I mean, I'm at the bottom of the bottom of the sort of productive valley at this point. Um, I may or may not, um, at some point in the distant future, produce a sort of general general guide to to classical mythology, um, which is you have done yourself. Um,

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  um, but, um, but no, no, no, I mean, my my most recent proudest productions are the werewolf book, which you've, uh, which you've mentioned. And also this, what we call the new, the new dragon book, the dragon three, as I call it, um, the dragon in the west. Um, and, um, yeah, so those are those are the two books I'd want to advertise at this point.

• 1:10:49Liv Albert?

  Wonderful. Well, I'll I'll put them in the episode's description and, um, I plan to to air our conversation in around October, when I love to do all of the spooky stuff. And so I will be using all of your books again, and my listeners can learn more about them that way. And and I'll I'll I'll share where to purchase them and everything, because your books have been incredibly helpful to me in all my spooky season episodes. So thank you for that.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  Very kind. Thank you.

• 1:11:17Liv Albert?

  Well, I'm thrilled to have you. Yeah, thank you so much for doing this.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  Great, it's been a pleasure.

• 1:11:37Liv Albert?

  Oh, nerds, nerds, nerds. Thank you, as always, for listening. I fucking love spooky season. It is just so much fun to trawl all the ancient sources and characters for anything that I can remotely relate to this topic. It's like a treasure hunt, every year. And I've been using Daniel Loggins' books for that treasure hunt for years now, so it was lovely to actually speak with him and learn about all these things even more directly. Especially that I got to talk about my new fascination: the vast difference between Greek witches and Roman witches. Those Roman witches, man, they were really something else. Let's talk about Myths Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians and handles so many podcast-related things, from running

• 1:12:19Liv Albert?

  the YouTube to creating promotional images and videos to editing and research. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by Acast. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek myth and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where you'll get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon.com/MythsBaby or click the link in this episode's description. As always, you all are the absolute best, and I wouldn't be here without you. Thank you for listening. This coming Tuesday, the underworld, cathonic cuties. I am Liv, and I love this shit quite a bit.

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