Tucker Carlson LIVE: The End of Free Speech

Tucker Carlson goes live with journalist Michael Shellenberger to expose the latest attacks on the First Amendment and your God-given rights. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Tucker Carlson?

  Hey, it's Tucker Carlson. Charlie Kirk was assassinated two weeks ago today in an event that clearly is going to change American history, changed a lot of people inside. And there was a moment in the first week where you thought to yourself, this is going to have effects, a lot of them are going to be bad, but some of them are probably going to be good because Charlie's life was itself so good. Charlie Kirk spent his life, above all, trying to live the Christian gospel and trying to live the principle of free speech, which is to say, he talked and he also listened. He was most famous for traveling from college campus to college campus and asking people who disagreed with him to confront him. "Ask me anything," he said. And he sat there patiently, as they did,

• 1:13Tucker Carlson?

  and they often attacked him. They almost always expressed views he found repugnant. And almost always, he took those views seriously and answered the questions put to him as crisply and honestly as he could. That's what he spent his life doing. And in fact, he was assassinated while doing that. So if there's any lesson from Charlie Kirk's life, well, the first lesson will probably be, sincere Christians tend to be really decent people. Maybe we should have more of them. But the more secular, temporal lesson is that free speech is a virtue. It is, in fact, the foundation of this country, not only its laws, but its culture, and that we should protect it. And maybe if we seek to honor Charlie Kirk, we should emulate it. Maybe we should begin by asking our politicians

• 1:58Tucker Carlson?

  to do what Charlie Kirk spent his life doing, which is to answer the question. Just calmly answer the question. "We'll ask you anything, and then you go ahead and answer it to the best of your ability." Like, for example, who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline? What happened to all the money we sent to Ukraine? Why haven't you released all the JFK files? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All the questions on your mind that slowly drive you crazy because no one will address them. Why don't we just ask them directly to our leaders and they get to answer? Nothing, nothing would honor Charlie Kirk's memory more than that. That is free speech in action. But nothing like that happened. Instead, the only real conversation we've had about free speech has been about Jimmy Kimmel, who is hardly a champion of free speech. In fact, just the opposite.

• 2:41Tucker Carlson?

  He's a nasty little censor, talentless, a person who has many times on camera over the years chuckled and applauded as other people. His political enemies have been silenced. A guy who has so little influence in American society and so little audience, he was on his way out anyway, has the job only as a result of some kind of weird political affirmative action where people who agree with studio heads get to have late night jobs. He is hardly the person who should be taking up the cause of free speech or become a symbol of it because of course he's the symbol of censorship and has been for most of his career. And the other thing that we saw, maybe even more distressing than that, was politicians

• 3:21Tucker Carlson?

  turn not only against free speech, but actively and openly announced efforts to censor the American population and use the memory of Charlie Kirk to do it as their justification. There are many examples we could pick. Here's a particularly raw one. This is from Congressman Moskowitz, just in the House of Representatives, eight days after Charlie Kirk died. Here it is.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  It's crazy what's going on on the social media platforms. There are so many conspiracy theories on what's going on with Charlie Kirk. Israel assassinated him, right? There are conspiracy theories about your personal social life all day. It is totally rampant. Big names on the right, Candace Owens.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Right, talking about how the, what's been released as far as the dialogue between the perpetrator and his roommate is manufactured by the FBI, manufactured by the administration. It is totally rampant, allowing foreign governments to just perpetrate these platforms, all of these bots, all of the time to weaponize Americans. And so if we want to do something, then we should talk about Section 230. We should talk about how we're going to make sure that we don't let foreign governments poison our children's mind. And so I will work with you on that, Director.

• 4:51Tucker Carlson?

  I'll work with you on 230 any day. So there is the congressman talking to the FBI director, and there's a lot there, and we'll unpack it, but the most telling line came right in the middle, and he turns to the FBI director, he says, "They're criticizing your personal life! They're airing conspiracy theories about your personal life!" Now, speaking for myself, I have literally no idea what the congressman was talking about. I haven't seen that, doubtless it exists, there are conspiracy theories, conspiracy theories about everybody and everybody's personal life, if you're in public, people are theorizing about you on the internet, kind of the nature of the internet and kind of the nature of having authority. But you'll notice that the congressman thinks this will be a compelling argument for the FBI director, he basically just says, "They're criticizing you and me, and they're not allowed to do that!"

• 5:34Tucker Carlson?

  He's not even pretending that the purpose of censoring speech, and that's what he's saying, "We need to censor the speech," that the purpose of that would be a attack to any vulnerable group, vulnerable groups, no! "They're criticizing us, they can't do that!" And then, of course, he goes on to blame unseen foreign actors, and by the way, that's something that I think most Americans would get behind, but that the congressman is not behind at all. If we want to take the influence of foreign nations out of our politics, most Americans would applaud, and that would start with not taking money from their lobbies. That would be a welcome change. But the idea that we need to censor what you say because the people who run everything don't want to be called out, or have their personal lives misdescribed to the subject of conspiracy theories...

• 6:18Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's not really reform as much as it's just kind of classic old fashioned tyranny, isn't it? "Shut up! We have guns, you don't, and we're gonna make you." And how are we gonna make you? That's the question. So you may remember that last week, the Attorney General came out, right after Charlie Kirk's death, and said there is a distinction between speech, constitutionally protected, famously in the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and something called hate speech, a category that, strictly speaking, doesn't exist under the law, but which a lot of people seem to believe exists. And hate speech is never defined, like, most of the most powerful words that we use to punish people, terrorism, for example, racism, it's never actually defined. What is that exactly?

• 6:59Tucker Carlson?

  We don't know, other than it's speech that people in charge hate, and therefore it should be banned. And most people who understand the American story, who understand our government, who understand our culture, who care about continuing all of those things, reacted with outrage when the Attorney General said that. "You can't pass a law that will strip from us our God-given right to say what we think is true." She addressed it in such a ham-handed way that it was obvious to everybody exactly what she was talking about, and they reacted. We did too. But in real life, that will not happen. There will not be, I can say confidently in my lifetime, a law in the Congress that

• 7:44Tucker Carlson?

  says explicitly, "Any American who says something our leaders don't like, anybody who traffics in a conspiracy theory about our personal lives will be shut down, fined, imprisoned." An open, transparent censorship law will not pass through the House of Representatives or the United States Senate, will not be signed by the President. Why? Because it's just too obvious. So instead, because censorship is coming, if these people can help it, instead, they will invoke something called Section 230. And you're gonna hear a lot more about this, without question, it's never, again, explained very well, and the reason it's not explained is because they don't want you to know exactly what they're doing. So let me just give you the Cliff Notes version of what Section 230 is.

• 8:29Tucker Carlson?

  Section 230 is a section, 230, within the 1996 Communications Decency Act, and it is the piece of legislation often credited for creating the Internet. It's the framework that Congress came up with at the dawn of the Internet to... Put parameters around what this is to protect companies as they grew, to set laws around this new technology. And one of the laws that they made, Section 230, shields internet providers, platforms, from lawsuits. It gives them legal liability from lawsuits on the basis of slander, obscenity, things that are on their platforms that they didn't create.

• 9:14Tucker Carlson?

  In other words, it creates a distinction between a publisher, like a newspaper, a magazine, a television network, and a platform, Google, Facebook, X. And the distinction allows the platforms to let other people post whatever they want without getting sued for it. They cannot be held liable, these big companies cannot be held liable for slander, hate speech, anything really, on their platforms. And as a result of this law, those platforms have come to dominate news and information globally. In fact, when we talk about censorship, nobody's talking about censoring the New York Times, the Washington Post, NBC News, because nobody cares.

• 9:57Tucker Carlson?

  All meaningful information and all meaningful social movements are influenced by social media. So if you want to get people whipped into a frenzy, if you want to change your government, for example, you're not going to take out an ad in the New York Times, of course not. You're going to get something going on the social media platforms. So they are huge, they are completely dominant, information flows almost exclusively on them, and all of this is possible because of Section 230. Now, there's been a pretty vigorous debate for the last 20 years over whether this is a good idea, and there are arguments against it. One of them is, why would Google get a liability exemption when I don't have one? You run a business, you're just an American citizen, you can be sued at any time, under

• 10:41Tucker Carlson?

  our famously loose and destructive tort laws, and you can go to business, you can be bankrupt, you can be destroyed. They can do to you what they did to Alex Jones, for example. The FBI can join up with some activist group and take your business away, wreck your life. So why should these big tech companies be exempt? Now, that's a real argument.

• 11:01Tucker Carlson?

  Similar to the argument about the pharma companies. Why should vaccine makers get a shield from lawsuits? If I make playground equipment, I'm vulnerable. If I make the COVID vax, I'm not. That's a principled argument. But what's interesting about the 230 debate is that both parties have been on both sides of it at various times. The Republicans for years were mad at the big platforms because they were censoring conservatives, which they were. And so they often muttered about revoking 230 shield protection unless they opened their platforms to all points of view. In other words, they wanted to use Section 230 to end censorship. There's no reason you should get a special carve out from the US government, from the Congress, if you don't treat people equally.

• 11:46Tucker Carlson?

  If there's not fairness and neutrality in the way you allow opinions to be broadcast on your platform. That seemed like a fairly reasonable position. But things have changed. Now you're seeing Republicans invoke Section 230, pick up the cudgel that they hold over these huge tech companies and say, unless you censor, we will revoke Section 230. And by the way, they are following in the footsteps of the leftward edge of the Democratic Party in doing this. In 2020, Beto O'Rourke of Texas ran one of his many doomed campaigns for office, this one, I think, for president. And he said, unless they get hate speech off the platforms, we're going to revoke Section

• 12:31Tucker Carlson?

  230 and put these people out of business. By the way, the threat is enough. That was the hope. If we threaten them, then we don't have to do the censoring. We'll make Google, Facebook, Meta, and X do the censoring for us. That was the idea. Then no one can accuse us of violating the First Amendment or being for speech codes. We'll make someone else do it. He lost. But then Joe Biden, that same year, 2020, said, actually, yes, we should use this threat to force the big tech platforms to censor in ways that we like. And by the way, they did. They did. Throughout the Biden presidency, Facebook, then Twitter, Google, all censored opinions the Biden administration didn't like.

• 13:16Tucker Carlson?

  And they did this ultimately because they feared having their legal protection revoked. That's why they did that. That's what got them to act. And Republicans, the sensible ones, looked at this and said, this is completely wrong. It's totally immoral. It's illegal for the US government to be imposing censorship on its citizens. It's against the Constitution of the United States and it's against, more important, natural law. These are not rights we were given by the Biden administration. These are rights we were born with. And when you take them away from us, you are the criminal. And they made that point. All of a sudden, you are seeing Republicans take the position that Beto O'Rourke and Joe Biden took just five years ago. Here, for example, and this

• 13:59Tucker Carlson?

  will come as no surprise to you at all, you will not be shocked to hear this. Here is Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, running for reelection, making exactly the same case that Beto O'Rourke made. Watch.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  Section 230 needs to be repealed. If you're mad at social media companies that radicalize our nation, you should be mad. And the bill that will allow you to sue these people, they're immune from lawsuits.

• 14:24Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it should be repealed. Everyone thinks, I'm very careful online. And you probably already got a way to avoid sketchy websites and obvious scammers. You're not giving money to Nigerian princes. Good for you. But is that enough? No, it's not. Big tech, invasive advertisers, even politicians, can track what you do online from standard browsing, and they get rich from it, and they control you with the information that they glean. And this whole ugly process begins with data brokers. Should be legal, it's not. These digital predators track everything that you do online. Every click, every scroll, every search. Then they search what you're doing, collect it, sell it to the highest bidder, who exploits it for profit and control.

• 15:07Tucker Carlson?

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• 15:44Speaker 04

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• 16:44Speaker 05

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• 17:38Tucker Carlson?

  Now, it's not clear from that clip exactly why Lindsey Graham is calling for the repeal of Section 230. Why is he threatening the tech platforms? And by the way, the pretext always changes. They'll tell you, "Well, we're against child sex trafficking," as if anyone is for it. "We're against terrorism," a term, once again, they never define and don't have to. "We're against drugs. We're against foreign influence. We're against bigotry." Whatever. They will always give you an excuse, and that excuse will make them sound like the virtuous party, like the good guys. "We're here to save the vulnerable." But that's never the real reason. Censorship, always and everywhere, is imposed with the intent and always has the effect

• 18:21Tucker Carlson?

  of shielding the powerful. They're the ones who don't want to be exposed. Free speech, by contrast, and this is the reason it's in our Bill of Rights, is the one great power that the powerless have. Especially in a world where your vote may or may not matter. All you have is your voice. All you have is your opinion. And that's infuriating to Lindsey Graham's donors. And make no mistake, when he's calling for invoking Section 230 and taking it away, threatening the big platforms, he's doing that on behalf of his donors, who feel criticized by random accounts on the internet.

• 19:00Tucker Carlson?

  And they hate it, because the people in charge always hate to be called out. Censorship has one goal, and that's to preserve secrecy. And secrecy has one purpose, and that's to avenge wrongdoing. So people who are doing nothing wrong are transparent. People who are committing evil hide, and censorship allows them to hide. It's literally that simple. And those people are the most powerful people in the country.

• 19:29Tucker Carlson?

  So who's encouraging this? The donors, whoever they are, but there are lots of lobby groups, all of them on the left, pushing the Republican-led Congress to get behind censorship initiatives, using the cover of the Section 230 debate to get it done, to pressure the tech companies into making you shut up, into taking your opinions off the internet, using algorithms designed to censor you without even a human being entering into the equation. No person will decide that your opinion is offensive and pull it off. The computer will decide that, and it will be aided by the massive exponential growth in computing power that is at the very center of tech right now, AI.

• 20:13Tucker Carlson?

  That is the goal, to make certain that opinions that are disruptive to the people in charge never see the light of day. What's amazing, and what's especially infuriating, is that many in the Republican Party, the party that controls all branches of government right now, are completely for this, strongly for it. Where did they get this idea? Is this a betrayal? Oh, it's a betrayal. How profound a betrayal? Listen to Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska, a former Air Force general, describe who he's been talking to about censorship.

• 20:49Speaker 06

  And I appreciate Jonathan Greenblatt, what HINAM and his ADL stands for. I know you've made us butter with your feedback and ideas or recommendations, and it's been a treat to get to know you. We want to be in a country that makes clear that antisemitism or any kind of racism is repugnant, unacceptable, not allowed in my space, and we just, with zero tolerance for it. So we need to hold these companies accountable and work with them to take it up the air way.

• 21:19Tucker Carlson?

  It's hard to believe that's a real clip. We actually checked. Is that real? Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska, a great and sensible state with tons of normal people, a former Air Force general, is he really colluding with Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL to take away your right to say what you think? Oh, you bet. That's exactly what he's doing. And make no mistake, the ADL is not an anti-defamation organization. The ADL practices defamation and slander and bullying, and not in service of protecting a marginalized group, but in accruing power and by forwarding its goals, which are ideological.

• 22:03Tucker Carlson?

  And if you don't believe that, go on the ADL's website and take a look at what the ADL considers hate speech. Hate speech, another one of those terms never quite defined, but the ADL has actually taken the time to define it. What do they consider hate speech? Well, among other things, complaining about drag queen story hour is hate speech, according to the ADL. Huh. Not being enthusiastic about the COVID vax, that's hate speech, and it's dangerous. Noticing that the American population has changed completely in the past 30 years, thanks to immigration, that's dangerous hate speech. You should be punished for that, for noticing it in your country that you were born in. No noticing. You can't notice that it looks completely different

• 22:46Tucker Carlson?

  because of decisions that someone who never consulted you made without your knowledge. Shut up, says the ADL. You not only don't have the right to speak, we're gonna scream at you and call you a Nazi and imply that you are the dangerous one, the people who opened up the borders to 50 million foreigners. But you're the dangerous one. Sure. You know what else is hate speech, by the way? Reading the Gospels of Matthew, or Mark, or Luke, or John, the Gospel itself, Christianity itself, is hate speech. I know that because three nights ago, I recounted the Christian story in its essence over like five minutes and was immediately denounced by the ADL as someone who is dangerous and inspiring murder.

• 23:25Tucker Carlson?

  But I'm not the only one. The ADL has actively attacked the Christian gospel for years, has gotten behind a definition of hate speech that includes the Christian story. That's not an exaggeration. That's not a fervid conspiracy theory. That's a fact and you can look it up. So this is the guy? That's the guy? Jonathan Greenblatt of the most aggressively left-wing, democratic-aligned, but much more important than that, lunatic, anti-human, anti-American group, the ADL, completely corrupt. He's consulting that guy to decide how much speech you should have because there are ugly opinions on the internet?

• 24:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. That's your Republican Party. Was he denounced by his fellow Republicans in the House? Was he denounced by the Speaker of the House? Speaker Johnson? No, he wasn't. They barely even noticed because they have the same views. Not all of them, but an awful lot of them. It's unbelievable and it's counterproductive. Because once again censorship is never enacted to help the powerless. It is always and everywhere an effort to shield the powerful, always, and in fact has a counterproductive effect on the people it is supposedly designed to help. How would you feel about any person you're not allowed to criticize? Would that make you like the person more? No.

• 24:52Tucker Carlson?

  It would make you resentful and suspicious and would give you the well-deserved opinion that this is not an egalitarian society in which we're all citizens. It's a hierarchical society in which the government has decided some people have more rights than others. So if you find out you're not allowed to criticize someone else, maybe the first question you might ask is, "Well then, why are people allowed to criticize me?" And the answer is because some people have more power in our society or being used to pit different groups against each other or who knows what's going on. But none of it is consistent with the core promise of this country, which is we're all citizens under our government and we're all equal before our God who made us. It says that. But increasingly, that's not the country we live in.

• 25:36Tucker Carlson?

  We live in a country where some people have more rights than others. And that's exactly the kind of message you would send if you wanted to foment a revolution against your government, because it enrages people and it divides them from each other. "Oh, we have to protect this group." What does everyone else think of that? They secretly don't like the group. You're not ending bigotry by enacting censorship. You're creating it, Dumbo. And this is specifically aimed at Congressman Bacon, who was somehow an Air Force general. He can't be dumb. But he's obviously not very thoughtful, because this is very obvious. People don't like other people who get special treatment. Were you never a child?

• 26:19Tucker Carlson?

  You never learned that? Who knows what the purpose here? It doesn't even matter. It is happening right before us. The people who are elected to protect us, who say they're our friends, are selling us out. And you can theorize as to why. And by the way, all of that theorizing is itself unhealthy. Where do conspiracy theories come from? Where do you think they come from? They come from living in a country where the government will never explain anything and lies constantly. So the next time you see someone in power complain about malicious conspiracy theories, stop him in mid-sentence and say, "They exist because of you." If you would just tell the truth, if you would live like Charlie Kirk and answer the

• 26:58Tucker Carlson?

  question politely, reasonably, fully, there wouldn't be a vacuum into which lunatics would rush. We would have a plausible answer to basic questions, like, "What the hell is going on?" But because you haven't provided that, what do you think's gonna happen? People are gonna have some pretty far-out explanations. And maybe some of them are true, by the way. We don't know. Your behavior is so suspicious, because you can't answer any question straight. Any. And you're spending your time talking to Jonathan Greenblatt, one of the darkest, most corrupt people in our society, truly a divisive figure.

• 27:39Tucker Carlson?

  Speaking of divisive, how many Americans have made fellow Americans hate each other more consistently over the years than Jonathan Greenblatt? Very, very few. Very few. And you're talking to him?

• 27:54Tucker Carlson?

  So if this sounds like a paranoid rant, like, "Oh, that could never happen." Well, you should know that it is happening right now in the state of California. The state of California, like, two weeks ago, 10 days ago, eight days ago, something like that, has passed a law in the state legislature, both chambers of the state legislature, it awaits a signature from Gavin Newsom, that would ban hate speech on the internet in California. Hate speech. Now, how do they define hate speech? They actually have the definition. I actually wrote it down, because I was so shocked by it that this is happening. The state of California, if Gavin Newsom signs this law, and he has until October 13th

• 28:36Tucker Carlson?

  to do it, people will be fined if the censors determine that speech constitutes, and we're quoting now, "violence, intimidation, or coercion," what's intimidation or coercion? Right. "Or coercion based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, immigration status, or other protected characteristics." Obviously, white Christian men are not covered under that, and so the society becomes ever more hierarchical, with a Brahmin class and untouchables at the bottom, the opposite of the country all of us over 50 grew up in, that had an egalitarian spirit, where some were rich, some were poor, some were smart, some were dumb, some had good jobs,

• 29:18Tucker Carlson?

  others were unemployed, but all of us were considered equal under the law and equal in the eyes of God. And that concept is the basis of a stable society, any stable society, and it was the basis of stability in this country. And laws like this, and the attitudes that give birth to them, to laws like this, have made it wildly unstable. Wobbly, it's so unstable. So, as of October 13th, that could become law. Now, that's a censorship law. Now, they'll say, "No, no, no, we're just, we're actually getting the platforms to censor." Well, right. You're getting someone else to do the job for you, but if you hire a hitman and he carries out the hit, you're the murderer. He participated in it, but you

• 30:01Tucker Carlson?

  hired him. And that's exactly what's going on here. The state of California, under Gavin Newsom, is about to, we think, censor the opinions of Americans. Not to protect anybody, but to shield themselves from criticism, so they can continue to do what they want to do in secret.

• 30:23Tucker Carlson?

  Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the ADL, applauds this. And in case you're not familiar with Jonathan Greenblatt, and in case you want a sense of what he's like, and what he considers hate speech, let's just go right to the tape, so you know that we're not exaggerating. This is Jonathan Greenblatt of ADL.

• 30:42Speaker 07

  When you look at the prevalence of anti-vaxxer accounts that have been amplified and spread across Facebook, they don't show up on your network, but they show up every day to billions of people because Facebook profits from amplifying these voices, which are literally killing people. And freedom to express your opinion isn't the freedom to incite violence, but, but for Facebook, it is, and that needs to change. That's all. It's simple. There's nothing wrong with keeping all of us safe from violent white supremacists or hateful people.

• 31:17Tucker Carlson?

  So criticizing the COVID vax is tantamount to murder. There's never been, I mean, obviously, that's prima facie insane, it's untrue, it's a deranged perspective, but more than anything, you're seeing who Jonathan Greenblatt really is. He is a faithful Praetorian guard for the people in charge. This is not someone who's ever challenged actual power, not once in his life. That's who he works for. That's who he takes money from. That's what hate speech looks like. Anybody in charge can make you shut up when you criticize them, or stand in the way of their aims.

• 32:00Tucker Carlson?

  So in case you don't think this can come to the United States, one final clip, and it's a sad one, and it comes from the UK. Now, the UK, obviously the country that gave birth two hours, a cousin, a country so similar to ours, and so close, six hours by plane overnight, that we don't really think of it as fully foreign. It's not like going to Malaysia, or Burundi, or even France. It's an English-speaking country, whose customs are recognizable, whose government and common law form the basis of our government and our law. Everything about England seems like home, but three degrees off. And yet, the UK has become a police state.

• 32:44Tucker Carlson?

  And if you don't believe that, if you think that's just hyperbole designed to whip you into a frenzy, here's a stat that we checked and it's hard even to believe this is true, but this is true. 2023, so like a year and a half ago. How many people do you think were arrested in the United Kingdom for speech violations, arrested by the police, handcuffed and brought to jail in 2023? Couple dozen, you know, the ones you see on X, the ones Fox News talks about? How many people in that year were arrested for saying things the government didn't want them to say? What's your guess? Is it more than 12,000? Because that's the answer, more than 12,000. Wow, that seems like a lot. Is that a lot?

• 33:28Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, it's kind of hard to know, right? Okay, well, let's compare it to the number, the widely agreed upon number from the most totalitarian country in the world. A country so lacking in basic freedom, a country run by a madman, a country that's so evil, we're literally at war with that country right now, just on principle, because we so disapprove of how they treat their people. And that country, of course, is Russia, under Vladimir Putin. So if the UK handcuffed 12,000, more than 12,000 people in one year for saying things the government didn't like, how many were arrested in Russia? A country with twice the population of the UK. Oh, we happen to have the number.

• 34:12Tucker Carlson?

  3,319. So to restate, more than 12,000 people arrested in the United Kingdom, England, in one year for speech code violations, 3,300 arrested in Russia, a country with twice the population. So that tells you, you don't think totalitarianism can come to the Anglosphere? Oh, it already has. We haven't even touched on Australia, New Zealand, Canada, in some ways even worse. But what does it look like? What is the face of hate crime prosecution? What does it actually look like when a citizen is arrested for saying something the government doesn't like? This video is not from China, it's from the United Kingdom.

• 34:56Tucker Carlson?

  This is a British veteran being arrested for offending the government. Watch.

• 35:00Speaker 08

  Does Hampshire Police would realise how ridiculous this is?

• 35:05Speaker 00

  It is, of course.

• 35:07Speaker 08

  What did it need to come to? Tell us why it's like it to this level? Because I don't understand. I posted something that he posted, you come to arrest me, you don't arrest him? Why does it come to this? Why am I in cuffs? Because of something he shared, then I shared?

• 35:22Speaker 09

  Because someone has been caused, obviously, anxiety based upon your social media posts. That's why you've been arrested.

• 35:31Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yes. The velvet wrap jackboot of British fascism. You're being arrested because someone has been caused anxiety by your views. Notice that someone is never identified, and of course, the answer is someone in power. Someone in the government, or someone who funds the government, someone close to the government, someone who has a lot more power than you, didn't like what you were saying, felt anxious about what you were saying. And so unfortunately, we're going to have to handcuff you and bring you to jail. Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. That happened this year. That happened in January. And it happens every single day. More than 12,000 people arrested every single year for criticizing their government in the UK. Our closest ally, with whom we share intelligence on every level.

• 36:13Tucker Carlson?

  British intelligence, I know everyone's spun up about Mossad, very close to Mossad, we're closer to British intelligence. That's the country we're partnering with to spy on our respective populations. Yeah. So it's really, really simple. If a government, if your government is willing to arrest you for saying things that they don't like, if your government is arresting you for criticizing them, one way or another, you need a new government. If there is any justification for revolution, it's that. That's unacceptable. That's tyranny. A government that does that is not a legitimate government. It has absolutely no right to do that.

• 36:56Tucker Carlson?

  And it should be stopped from doing that immediately. That's the red line, right there. So the First Amendment is the one truly distinctive thing that makes America, America. It makes this country great. You are a citizen. That means you can speak openly and honestly, without fear about what you actually believe. The government doesn't own you. You own the government. That's the premise. And for 250 years, we've lived it. We hope to keep living it. Our sponsor, Pure Talk, understands how important this is, how central it is. So if you want to support brands that defend freedom and American values, we recommend switching your wireless service to Pure Talk, which is way cheaper and uses the same towers the other guys use. It's the best. We know what you're thinking. Of course, giving business to companies that share your values

• 37:39Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:14Speaker 00

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• 38:45Speaker 10

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• 38:46Speaker 11

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• 38:50Speaker 10

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• 38:56Speaker 12

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• 39:13Tucker Carlson?

  Michael Schellenberger is one of the great reporters in the United States, a friend of ours and someone who as a former liberal has probably thought about speech for more years and with more clarity than probably anyone I know. And so we're so grateful to have him on to assess the state of free speech in the United States two weeks after Charlie Kirk's assassination. Mike, thanks very much for coming on. Are you worried?

• 39:40Speaker 13

  I'm very worried. I mean, I think what's maybe undersaid recently is that assassination is the ultimate form of censorship. And it comes from the same place. I think that's what everybody senses about it is that there had been efforts to censor, and they had, I think, censored Charlie Kirk, obviously. I mean, the Twitter files, we discovered that he was on a blacklist. There was obviously huge attempts to keep him out of universities. He had already had many death threats, which is not a direct form of government censorship, but these are societal demands that he be silenced. And then at a global institutional level, yeah, it's a very disturbing trend that we're seeing. I mean, I think there's

• 40:23Speaker 13

  two things happening. There's both an organic kind of demand from powerful people like the kind that you were describing, where a politician just really, I think it was the Moskowitz, where you just kind of can't stand something and they just want to see something taken down. And you'll see that from groups and politicians. And then there's more of an inorganic demand for censorship, which we've labeled the censorship industrial complex. You can call it the censorship industry. And that is in place in the European Union, in Britain, in Brazil. California would like to have that. Basically, all the Five Eyes countries are pursuing that. And their strategy, I think, is pretty clear at this point is

• 41:07Speaker 13

  to encircle the United States and to make our tech platforms censor along the lines that they would like to, so they can achieve censorship through the back door. And this has always been their strategy because they know that the First Amendment is a major obstacle for them, since it requires that the people have really radical levels of free speech that no country has ever come close to. And as you said, based on this idea of natural rights that we are granted by our Creator, not given to us by the government. The speech comes before the government. The speech is how we constitute our government. Whereas in Europe and everywhere else, the government had gradually, you know, let people say certain things. You have to petition the king. Oh, king, can we criticize you for sleeping with Anne Boylan?

• 41:51Speaker 13

  And the king would decide whether that would be okay or not. And, and that's how it would occur. And the creators of this amazing country, and as you work on free speech, I've only worked on it now for really two and a half years. I'm a newbie to the issue. But one of the things you just really appreciate is really how radical and powerful and strong that commitment to the First Amendment was. It's not just hype. You might just think, is that just patriotic hype from Americans? It's not. When you read the history of free speech over 2,500 years, going back to Socrates, who was put to death uh, for things that he said, also an act of censorship. Then you realize just how radical the First and how beautiful the First Amendment is because the Americans that created our country said, we don't want to have a country.

• 42:35Speaker 13

  We don't have a government if we can't have full free speech with some very narrow exceptions. And so the exceptions now, they sort of say, well, the internet changed everything. That's what you hear from, that's what I hear from my progressive friends. Heard it on Martha's Vineyard of all places. It's all changed with the internet. It's too dangerous to allow this high level of free speech. We have to change things. Well, Tucker, to, to put into, to kind of put in context how crazy that is. Our Supreme Court has ruled not once, but twice that Nazis can march through neighborhoods, not only of Jewish Americans, but of Holocaust survivors. And that the line where you, the, the line that gets crossed between speech

• 43:18Speaker 13

  and actual violence is when I say, go kill that person there, or go light that house on how, it's when the speech becomes part of the action. You know, or coordinating assassination or something. Of course, language in that context has to be illegal because it's part of, uh, it's part of breaking the law, but. Marching through a neighborhood with the most vile ideology is something that the Supreme Court has twice upheld. Well, now we're supposed to believe that some racist comments on a Facebook post, or as you said, it's really political, it's really about stifling the conversation around migration, gender, climate. I mean, it's actually been less on race, you know, a huge amount on trans issues.

• 44:03Speaker 13

  I mean, we just saw a British gentleman, Grant Linum, a famous television comedy writer, get arrested when he landed in Britain for having urged biological women to defend themselves from biological males that come into their bathrooms. So it is a very serious threat, Tucker. I think that the thing to keep our eye on is they've been trying to basically get governments to empower a mostly secret group of so-called NGOs that would be financed by the government and who would be telling the social media companies what to take down. In some places, they're more subtle with it than in others. That's the big threat. The Trump administration has done some great things to defund that.

• 44:45Speaker 13

  It was all going to work through NSF and then Congress would have to bless it, and that was the way that they were going to do it. So the Trump administration has done a great job defunding that and also holding a strong line on both Europe and Brazil, putting, you know, demanding that free speech protections be there. But obviously, you know, we see some backsliding and some behaviors over the last couple of weeks that were lamentable. Certainly, the Attorney General's comments, which she then later kind of went back on and said she didn't mean what she had said, and then obviously, or maybe not obviously, but a dust-up over the FCC chair and his comments around Jimmy Kimmel, which I gotta say, as the days go by and you look in retrospect, it just seems absurd.

• 45:29Speaker 13

  I mean, you had Democrats trying to create this elaborate censorship system, and then you had some bad-mouthing of Jimmy Kimmel. It wasn't really, it wasn't great. I think it was inappropriate, but I think there was a lot of other complicating factors, too, and there was... You know, economic concerns around Jimmy Kimmel and just sort of this demand that, you know, that he have to be carried on every television station. I think in retrospect, uh, we won't look back on as it's not a great moment. I don't think the Trump administration covered itself in glory over the last couple of weeks on that. But on, on the European side of holding strong on free speech and also in staying up to Brazil. Uh, I do give the Trump administration credit.

• 46:11Tucker Carlson?

  All it did was save Jimmy Kimmel. I mean, Jimmy Kimmel is on his way out and nobody watches that. It's crap. I mean, it has no effect on American society. It's just masturbatory. It's really, he's, he's playing for an audience of one himself. And, um, this kind of allowed him to pose as a free speech defender. I gotta say, I'm the TikTok thing. I think I sort of missed that. I don't know why I wasn't paying attention. I should have been, but TikTok was banned by the Congress, uh, forced to sell. It was Chinese owned company by Dance owned TikTok. And the argument in the Congress was, well, we can't have foreign ownership of, you know, a critical service like social media in this country. And so it has to be owned, um, at least 51% by Americans.

• 46:55Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. I just, I don't know why I missed the significance of this. Then it turns out, and they said this openly, it had nothing to do with China. And members of Congress said this, I'm a lot of Republicans. I'm voting to shut down TikTok because people are starting to like Hamas when they watch it. Now I'm not endorsing Hamas, obviously I'm not pro Hamas at all. But Americans have a right to like anything they want and to come to their own conclusions about some foreign conflict or even domestic conflict, any conclusion they want because they're not slaves. So is it okay for the Congress to decide, I don't like the effects, the radicalization of this one social media platform? So I'm going to shut it down? I mean, is, is that allowed? Can they do that?

• 47:41Speaker 13

  Well, this gets to, let me only come to it by addressing the, one of the things that you, I thought rightly discussed in your monologue, which is this very wonky but important issue of this law called Section 230, and the nature of these platforms that we have. And I think it's helpful to think of these platforms at this point as utilities. They're monopoly utilities. You could say there's some competition between Instagram and TikTok and X, and there's truth to that. But there's often situations in monopoly environments where there's some competition. But they really do operate, I think, functionally as monopolies. And they're, they're already regulated monopolies by Section 230. They're already saying to them, you're

• 48:23Speaker 13

  a different category of business. You're not liable if you take down illegal content. You're not, you can't be sued for having had that content on your website. It still requires them to take it down. I think my view, and I've published a couple of white papers on it, I've testified on it, hasn't exactly caught fire, my proposal.

• 48:45Tucker Carlson?

  I've got a lot of views like that, too.

• 48:47Speaker 13

  Yeah, but I think like, I think that, you know, I mean, look, one thing you have to understand about these, these big tech companies, they're so powerful. There's, I was shocked when I learned that like, Facebook has a different lobbyist for House Republicans than for House Democrats, and a separate lobbyist for Senate Republicans, Senate Democrats. I mean, these guys really put a lot of money into having that control over Congress. So that's a little bit like the utilities power at the state level, the electric utilities power at the state level. So it's a regulated environment. But I do think public interest voices like yourself and Joe Rogan and others out there carrying this message is really important, because I think what's in the public interest is that we actually do keep 230, but make it

• 49:31Speaker 13

  contingent on allowing all adult users

• 49:35Speaker 13

  To filter our own content, our own legal content. So in other words, all the child exploitation stuff, obviously still being policed as we do now. All of the, you know, copyright violation, all that stuff, still being policed as is now. But when you would go into a social media platform, you'd have a chance to basically decide what you wanted to see and what you didn't want to see. And there was even some talk among Republicans who I respect, but I disagree on this issue that we're upset that the, the video of Charlie Kirk being assassinated was on X. I mean, it was quite shocking. I have to agree with that, but I don't think the solution is to necessarily take it down. But you could certainly create your own filter that I want to filter out any scenes of people being physically harmed. You could have a lot of different filters. You could

• 50:18Speaker 13

  have the Tucker Carlson filter. You'd have the Greta Thunberg filter. But the, the users would be able to do that. And then of course, the platforms like X already does can feed you their own platform, a separate stream. I think Elon has gotten pretty close to that at X, not as close as I would love to see it. But we're so grateful because, I mean, the impact that he's had has been so enormous in terms of ending this censorship fact checking mafia. Mark Zuckerberg at Meta earlier this year decided he was going to copy the Elon Musk model of crowdsourcing, which is what the spirit of the First Amendment is. We crowdsourced truth with the First Amendment.

• 50:58Speaker 13

  And then we just saw Google yesterday in a letter to Chairman Jim Jordan in the House, so that they would move to something more like that. So those are, those are good directions. But for me, that should be the only issue of Section 230 reform is to actually expand the speech that's allowed, not restricted. What they want to do is they want to basically give the deep state, you know, for lack of a better word, DHS, NSF, DoD, the power to kind of choose the, the people that will decide what the truth is as these NGOs who would then get NSF money, which is, you know, public money, National Science Foundation money, and that they would then get special access to the data. I mean, this was their whole vision and they were close

• 51:40Speaker 13

  to achieving it. We only really discovered it with the Twitter files. That's their whole Really grails to be able to control it that way. It's they're they're set back in the United States, but they are moving for sure in that direction in Europe, Britain, Brazil, and certainly California would like to do the same. I hope that if Gavin does sign that atrocious legislation that you were describing, Tucker, I hope that the Supreme Court or that the courts strike it down. They struck down the last California censorship initiative, which was aiming at banning AI, you know, parodies, and that got struck down by a judge in a very eloquent decision. But that's kind of where we're at and why I think you're special on this is so important because we're on a knife's edge. On the one hand, I think we're making some good progress

• 52:25Speaker 13

  here in the United States in exposing the censorship and shutting and defunding it. But I think worldwide, the trends are in the wrong direction and on college campuses with young people, unfortunately, we've seen an increase of support among censorship, really every generation from baby boomers to Gen Xers to millennials to Zoomers, that we see support for censorship going up. And it's exactly like what you were saying. It's about protecting feelings. It's this, you know, to use a bit of jargon, it's this expressive individualism, which is that my feelings are like the most important thing in the world and that my feelings are hurt and somebody has to pay a price. That sadly is the ideology. And that's why I think the censorship is in this broader,

• 53:07Speaker 13

  you know, cultural decline, you know, where it's like the intolerance and the entitlement that people feel are these big forces that have been, I think, driving those demands for censorship.

• 53:18Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's I think everything you've said is absolutely true. I think it may even be more insidious than that. However, I think that there are decent people who've had their best impulses hijacked by totalitarians and used against them. In other words, I think there are like good people, Americans, mostly women, to be totally blunt about it, who are like, oh, we can't be mean to this or that group. Well, I think that's a good impulse, by the way, we shouldn't be mean to any group. And the weaker they are, the more careful we should be about being mean to them because you don't want to be a bully, right? Like, that's a good impulse. But that impulse is hijacked by the censors who are acting on their own behalf, not on behalf of whatever marginalized group they claim they're acting on behalf of. They don't care about those groups, obviously. The lives of black people

• 54:01Tucker Carlson?

  in inner cities did not improve after the George Floyd riots, obviously. But they they hijack that and they say, if you care about the weakest among us. You will get on board with censorship. I think that's really clever and insidious and evil, but effective.

• 54:21Speaker 13

  Yeah, I think that's right. I think it's it's a manipulation. You know, it just shows how emotional the culture has gotten, you know, that you can appeal to those feelings. I mean, Tucker, it's so easy to show how much of an abuse of power you can get with these hate speech laws. I mean, it's worth considering, for example, you'll get people that will be like, oh, well, are you defending the right of people to like, call for genocide? And you kind of go, oh, my God, well, no, I mean, that's horrible. I don't want people to call for genocide. So you kind of go, so we'll carve that out. But then you kind of go, well, wait a second. So the same people that are saying that to you are the ones that point out as soon as you talk about the American experiment of the 17th and 18th

• 55:02Speaker 13

  and 19th centuries, that the that the European settlers committed a genocide to create the United States of America. So how hard would it be to criticize somebody that say praised America, praised the Western expansion, praised the the West opening up and the European settlers, frankly, taking over the United, taking over this land from indigenous people? Someone could say that's defending genocide. So you see how easy and quickly it comes.

• 55:28Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 55:29Speaker 13

  I'll give you another example. Institute for Strategic Dialogue, which is one of these deeply sinister. I mean, they would not return any phone calls or whatever. And they personally

• 55:39Speaker 13

  smeared me and a lot of others.

• 55:41Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, wait, wait, can I ask you to, as steps who the Center for Strategic Dialogue didn't want any dialogue?

• 55:48Speaker 13

  Yeah, the Institute for Strategic Dialogue refused to have dialogue.

• 55:52Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not surprised.

• 55:52Speaker 13

  Um, creepy creepy group, close to British intelligence. I mean, it's just like, I mean, close to, I'm being generous, you know, like clearly an intermediary with deep state British organizations that is very interested in censoring Americans. And we see this dynamic a lot where they, you know, the Brits, you know, pick on Americans, the British groups pick on Americans, because, you know, the US intelligence community can't directly go after Americans. So they get their British allies to do it. And this is a group that labeled, along with the Center for Countering Digital Hate, which is equally sinister organization, very connected to the Labour Party of Britain, they label criticism of George Soros.

• 56:34Speaker 13

  As antisemitic and Tucker, I'm not saying criticism of George Soros and even noticing that he's Jewish, it wasn't even that. It wasn't like they said the Jewish philanthropist, George Soros, they'd be like, just criticizing George Soros was antisemitic. That's how crazy it is and got that. And you know, you look at the number of institutions that have been putting this, it's the European Union, it's NATO, it's the United Nations, it's Germany, France, Britain, United States is really powerful. And I think that the president did a good job pushing back against those types of people around the world. But it is important to remember that the European economy is bigger than the United States

• 57:14Speaker 13

  economy. And certainly when you go and kind of look at a world with this incredible economic power of China and the gravity it exercises on all these other countries in the world, including Europe, including Brazil. I mean, it was notable that when Trump punished Brazil with tariffs for its censorship and banning their, their, their lead, their opposition party leader and the leading presidential candidate Bolsonaro, that China made up the difference in the loss of trade. So you sort of start to see the world, you know, and particularly get this kind of organic, you know, decline of real belief and support in free speech with a kind of global move towards this censorship industrial complex system of censorship by

• 57:56Speaker 13

  proxy. It is disturbing because they can exercise economic power over our platforms. And, you know, I mean, I, I think Elon has shown good reason that we can, you know, basically trust what he's done. I think he's made great decisions for the most part since he's taken over the platform. But, you know, if anything were to happen to Elon, I mean, these companies, Mark Zuckerberg, Google, Sundar Pichai, they've shown themselves to be quite cowardly. Facebook was worried about the lack of help from the Biden administration. It was enough to get Facebook to censor because they were worried about not having enough help from the Biden administration to retrieve their very valuable user data from Europe, which their laws require. And that's why they agreed to do censorship that

• 58:39Speaker 13

  even their own social scientists within Facebook said would backfire because they were like, look, if you go censor mothers sharing information about the, about the COVID vaccine side effects, it will make mothers more nervous. That's what the internal people at Facebook said. And the Facebook execs were like, we better just give the Biden administration what they want. Otherwise they're not going to help us with our data in Europe. So it doesn't. I mean, it's not hard to imagine, you know, the power that these states can exercise on these platforms, and I don't think that that threat has gone away.

• 59:10Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't seem like a good system if one, you know, South African-born, naturalized American is the only thing standing between us and tyranny. I mean, I really think that the media wouldn't be, I mean, I work in the media, my whole life I've worked in the media. Elon Musk did this. Elon Musk did all this. And he did it because, I think, he says, because he believes in it. Whatever the cause, he did it. He opened up everything.

• 59:38Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 59:38Tucker Carlson?

  So, but, which I will never stop being grateful for, obviously. However, that's a pretty thin thread, kind of holding your civilization aloft, no?

• 59:48Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, the things I really worry about are those numbers, you know, I mean, you've had, you know, just those numbers of young people that, I mean, the number of young people, the number of college students, the share of college students that said that violence may sometimes be necessary to stop a campus speaker was under 20% in the year 2020. It's 34% right now. That means one-third of college students think that violence might be necessary to stop a campus speaker. That is, I mean, that's pathological. I don't know, there's another word for that. That's bonkers, crazy, scary behavior. And so, you

• 1:00:31Speaker 13

  know, remember, George Orwell, he was, you know, a leftist, wrote 1984 because he had read James Burnham, who's this very famous, you know, former Trotsky, who becomes a conservative and writes, you know, this book about the managerial state, which is basically about how this totalitarianism would kind of emerge out of the society and out of the state in these very specific safetyist, you know, harm reduction demands, that you would sort of get a whole kind of state of busybody, you know, nanny state people that wanted to police the speech. I mean, that was his prediction in 19, whatever that was, 1947, I think, or, you know, when 1984 came out.

• 1:01:17Speaker 13

  That is was so brilliant. I mean, it's terrifying brilliantly pressing it because that's what I worry about. And I think, you know, I saw the obviously very moved by all the Charlie Kirk. What's the response to the Charlie Kirk assassin and the desire to go into universities? I think we need to figure out how to move that number down so that people really do be the young people become and the everybody becomes more comfortable with. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, Charlie really was inspiring in the way that he would go into places. And of course, the sign said, prove me wrong. He was saying, look, I'm open to debate is exactly. He, I mean, it's so, I don't know, ironic is not the right word. It's so

• 1:01:58Speaker 13

  powerful that the person that was assassinated was the person doing what we need the most of. That the person that was killed was the person who was doing what we need to see much, much more of at the high schools and the colleges, which is getting people very comfortable with having difficult conversations and with having conversations with people whose values you don't share and who believe things that you find reprehensible. And that is at the heart of it. And I don't know. I mean, it's sort of what's terrifying is that. You know, those numbers of intolerance kept increasing over the last 10 years. I hope that we've hit an inflection point. I will say, Tucker, one number that did change that gave that I felt some heart in

• 1:02:42Speaker 13

  was that Pew had found that the share of Democrats that thought the government should be involved in censoring misinformation online had risen from 40% in 2018 to 70% in 2023. They did the stud, the same question earlier this year, and it's now declined to 58%. So I do feel like there is a chance at which the, I mean, it's still terrible, but like the, the, the sense in which that trance has broken. You know, that hypnotic, we have to fight misinformation that just bonkers, anti-American, un-American impulse. It feels like it was broken, but I still think there's a lot of that, you know, cultural work that we need to do to really educating kids because I just don't think free speech is intuitive. I mean, you go to a playground and you see little kids playing.

• 1:03:27Speaker 13

  They just are yelling, shut up, shut up at each other all the time. It's our natural instinct. You hear something you don't like. You want to shut them up and the alternative to listen to somebody and actively disagree with them. And maybe think about how to respond or just figure out if you agree or disagree. It take, it's like a muscle. It just takes practice and I think we have to teach the kids. You know, both the K through 12 and the college students how to do that and that doing that is a core value. That will be rewarded in life and we should be celebrating rather than the opposite, which is this desire to silence and shut down.

• 1:04:01Tucker Carlson?

  Are you concerned that technological advances that we're in the middle of really? Will be harnessed to affect censorship without people even knowing it. I mean, you did the Twitter files with Meta U B. And found what I don't think anyone knew. There was this vast censorship program at Twitter. And but most users had the sense that, you know, it's a liberal website, whatever. They're taking the conservatives off, but had no idea.

• 1:04:28Tucker Carlson?

  About the specifics until you brought them to light. Does A I increase the power of the platforms to take? Information off the site without anyone even knowing it's been taken off?

• 1:04:40Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, just to answer that question, I'll preface it by saying, of course, I watched very closely your interview with Sam Altman. Where you asked, I think, some very important questions, which is what is the moral framework with which? His A I will follow. That is the right question. And of course it remains an ever present question. It's not like it'll, it will never go away. Ultimately, these decisions about what gets censored and what the A I censors for us are made by people. And so you look at the worst episodes of censorship over the last, you know, five to 10 years. You can find the people that were demanding the censorship. You can find the groups they created to demand it.

• 1:05:21Speaker 13

  You know, that it was, it was human decisions and that in fact, at the company level in the Twitter files. There was a huge amount of debate around, I mean, not enough, a huge amount of debate around deplatforming the president of the United States. Like removing the account of the president of the United States, which is so insane. It was a big deal. Obviously, it was talked about, and then, of course, you could see it. Same thing with the Hunter Biden laptop, where the FBI ran a deception operation against the social media platforms illegally in an illegal conspiracy that included spreading disinformation about the laptop. That was obviously a very elaborate thing that a lot of people could see and were getting kind of glimpses into.

• 1:06:03Speaker 13

  There was also just the humdrum or the ordinary kind of deamplification. So you remember Twitter famously said, oh, we don't shadow ban. That was the language that people had used. Well, of course, they did. They called it something different. It was called like, you know, do not amplify lists, for example, like a kind of blacklist that they ran or a trends blacklist. Don't let them show up on the trends thing. So there's just all a million dials, of course, as you know, Tucker, to like, kind of turn these things up and down.

• 1:06:32Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:06:32Speaker 13

  The AI can help, but sometimes, you know, like, they wanted to go after a QAnon conspiracy. At one point, I reported this in my Twitter files on the decision to deplatform Trump. And there was something around like the Kraken, which I guess is like a giant like squid in the ocean. I think it's, you know, they were like, the Kraken was somehow tied into QAnon conspiracy theories. And they wanted to censor that, which is also insane. Like, they wanted to literally stop people from talking about Kraken, like, on Twitter. And then somebody figured out that the Seattle, I think, hockey team is the Kraken and that all these tweets around hockey were getting like swept up in it. So it's like, you know, it's like, I worry about it, but ultimately, it's not a bunch of censors in like the Philippines or even, I think Palo Alto, these like the worst forms

• 1:07:16Speaker 13

  of censorship are being decided at the executive level. But as I said, my view is that if you have Section 230, which is what gives you the power to be a monopoly, it's like literally like the path, like the permit to operate as a functional, natural monopoly. I think that that you should have to give the user, the adult user, complete control over all legal content. And you can censor the illegal content. And I do think we should, there's a whole separate thing on kids, you know, which I think is complicated because they're using the kids right now in Australia. They're literally using the kids in Australia to create digital identifications as a way to censorship, which I think you, we should be alarmed about. But nonetheless, as a father who's seen the impact of social media on adolescents, I

• 1:08:02Speaker 13

  do worry about it. But I do think like, if you're gonna have Section 230, that's, that should be the agreement.

• 1:08:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, and thank you for describing it as using the kids because it is the most obviously transparently cynical attempt to censor political speech by using the suffering of children about whom they care nothing, obviously. There's no demonstrated care for kids, like, how are the schools, you know, they just don't care. Right, and any pretext will do. I mean, the terrorism thing was huge, as you know, under the Bush administration. It's terrorism. What is that exactly? Can you can you define it for me? No, they can't. I'm wondering, though, what's the recourse? So these are decisions you just described that are being made at like, the highest level of global society. I mean, the richest

• 1:08:51Tucker Carlson?

  man in the world decided to restore free speech to the United States. The President of the United States helped him. Judges, federal judges, rule on these things. But let's say we have a different president, and there's no Elon, or his commitment changes, and there's a different Supreme Court. Like, where's the power to fight back against this? Is, can you imagine a kind of civil disobedience that people could use to regain their speech? I'm trying to think through what that would look like.

• 1:09:22Speaker 13

  Well, look, at the top of my list is that we are in something called the NATO Organization, and it has a treaty that requires that we only have as members free democracies. We only are going to defend countries that allow free speech, and that allow candidates, people to choose the candidates of their choice. Currently, that is absolutely under attack in Europe. Romania has already prevented, as you interviewed, Romania has prevented their presidential frontrunner. Now, France is about to ban their presidential frontrunner, Marine Le Pen, in a completely trumped up charge that the prime minister, the last

• 1:10:06Speaker 13

  prime minister was already guilty of and still came into office. Germany, there's, I just interviewed a mayoral candidate who was banned for like, made up reasons because he liked Lord of the Rings, I'm not even kidding. And he went to a book fair where there are some people that the intelligence services didn't like people, and that was like, the basis of the election council, preventing him from running. And then they have these elaborate censorship industrial complexes. We're part of NATO. Everybody knows that we're the main event. We subsidize it to the tune of You know, hundreds of billions of dollars a year. Like you, Tucker, I'm willing to die for free speech and democracy like I with Seneca. Uh, like the Spartan slave boy in the great Seneca.

• 1:10:49Speaker 13

  Passage, I would rather die, you know, a free man than live as a slave. And so we, what we are willing to die for. For freedom, and I think we all care a lot about Western civilization in Europe, but not if they're gonna. I don't want to defend, I'm not gonna, I don't want to put my life on the line. To defend authoritarian censorial autocracy autocracies like France, Germany and Romania. And potentially Britain, so I think the president has. You know, been pretty strong on it, you know, they're still negotiating this right now, but I just think that the public. Certainly MAGA. But whatever leftists are still in favor of free speech out there, including, as you mentioned, I think a lot of the, the pro Palestinian folks that felt person, you know, felt censored on Tik Tok and elsewhere. And have been censored in other ways.

• 1:11:33Speaker 13

  That that we should all make very clear that we don't want to be a part of a military. Uh, treaty that, uh, has us risking our lives for, for illiberal autocracies. Like that's got to be at the top of the list. Same thing with Brazil, it's like. You know. Okay, I think people, Americans need to know, we should pay more for orange juice. If it means protecting our freedom of speech that like our freedom of speech, it's not like a small thing. It's like the main event, it's like the reason why America is the greatest country that's ever existed. And certainly the greatest country in the world still, despite all of our problems. And the country that everybody wants to live in is because of the first amendment of free speech. So it just has to be an absolute non-negotiable. So I said, this is the number one issue.

• 1:12:16Speaker 13

  If you don't have free speech, you don't have anything, you don't have democracy, you don't have your dignity. You don't have, you don't have cat, you don't have prosperity, you don't have, you have, infrastructure can't work. It's just everything depends on free speech. And so it's just got to be an absolute. Issue for the administration, um, in these, in these negotiations. And yeah, I mean, I think. Civil disobedience, um, if we see, you know, when things get to that level is always, should always be an option, particularly for then defending something as essential and sacred. Uh, as the first amendment.

• 1:12:47Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have any guesses or theories as to what happened to Great Britain, which of all countries is the closest to ours? Has the deepest historical ties. And is now arresting more than 12,000 people a year for saying things the government doesn't like that. It really, it's hard for me even to digest that. But I'm also confused by it. Like, how did that happen?

• 1:13:11Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, look, you had Christopher Caldwell on the other week, and I thought he did an incredible job explaining what's happened to Europe. But I mean, I think we're, I think it's fair to say that we're at the end of an 80-year cycle that began in 1945 with the end of World War II. And the United States had the role of being the, you know, really, the main, you know, the country that was at the center of this new empire. I mean, you can call it the American empire, whatever you want to call it. And we were trying to prevent another war in Europe, and we pushed out an ideology that you might call, R. R. Reno calls the open society ideology. And at first, it made sense when you're denazifying Germany and you're, you know, whatever they did with Japan, moderating Japan, and you're

• 1:13:56Speaker 13

  trying to kind of usher in a liberal democratic Western order. Made sense for a few decades, probably didn't make sense after 1990. And it went too far. And it, obviously, we decimated our industries by exporting them to China. And, you know, created, you know, with the help of George Soros, created this elaborate NGO sector that basically pushed two things at the same time. Because I think the only way you can understand the censorship and the demand for totalitarian censorship in the kind of mental space is to just also understand the total disorder that they're creating in the physical world, you know, from like, as you're saying, the unchecked mass migration, the collapse of borders, people

• 1:14:37Speaker 13

  in boats, you know, people with 14, you know, criminal prosecutions and still let out on the street, street despite their schizophrenia to commit murder against refugees. I mean, that disorder is, I think, I don't think it's a coincidence that, that those two things are unleashed by the same people at the same time. I mean, Soros Foundation wants censorship. They also want disorder and anarchy and lawlessness, you know, at the street level, at the city level. So I think that, you know, as that, you know, the contradictions of their own, you know, ideology of just sort of Of, you know, the guilt around the past and the construction of these singularities of evil that were,

• 1:15:20Speaker 13

  you know, the Holocaust, slavery, indigenous genocide, those became new religious, the new original sins for this new woke religion. And, you know, it's funny because it was interesting when you, everybody looks at, I mean, everyone's seen the data. You know that really the, the border, the migration and the illegal migration of the United States really wasn't nearly as out of control bef, you know, before Trump, he campaigned on in 2016, but it really gets out of control as a kind of reaction by Biden and the blob elites. After 2020, Europe's a slightly different story, but, you know, I think it's just what it looks like. There's just this woke religion has just absolutely displaced the older story that we had of Western civilization, which is that

• 1:16:02Speaker 13

  Christianity gave way to the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment secularized a whole bunch of Christian values, including the idea that we're all born with dignity and rights. And we just, that old story just got replaced by this really ugly story, which is that humans are a cancer on the earth, that Western civilization is just genocidal and, you know, it's just the opposite of really what it's been historically, which is a massively liberating phenomenon. And we got stuck in this awful story, got taught in the schools, it got taught in the universities. And it's just that beautiful open society vision from 1946 just became its complete totalitarian opposite. And I think Britain really exemplifies that. And it's worth noting, by the way, too, because I think you've done such a good job here, Tucker,

• 1:16:47Speaker 13

  of pointing out the left and right origins of this, certainly like what we call the foreign policy establishment, the blob. They were behind the Online Safety Act in Britain that passed in 2023. It was the conservative government that, that got it done, but it was the same foreign policy blob that was behind our censorship industrial complex. And that was clearly emerged out of this effort to govern the American empire. And then was reacting to this just massive populist unrest to, you know, out of control migration policies, energy policies that were aimed at creating scarcity and high prices. The trans madness, we're literally, I mean, that is just one where, I mean, if you really want to like,

• 1:17:27Speaker 13

  it's like a David Cronenberg movie, you know, it's like, it's these atrocities, physical atrocities that you're then not allowed to talk about, like that you're then, if you actually deny, if you actually, I mean, they wanted censorship on all of it. We had a Twitter. They censored Meghan Murphy for saying, but a man is not a woman. Like, that's what she said, and they like deplatformed her. So I mean, you talk about like a terrifying scenario. We're a scenario where it's like these hideous medical experiments are being conducted on the bodies of adolescents and mentally ill people. And they were then trying to censor people talking about it and, and demanding that you believe that it's possible to change your sex. I mean, that's just how you kind of go, that's how far gone we, we've, we got as a civilization, you know?

• 1:18:11Speaker 13

  It's that we convinced ourselves that you could perform, you know, biological alchemy. And then we wanted to silence and suppress anybody who told the truth about it. So, you know, I, it's, there's, I think there's a black pill moment where one could say that we're pretty far gone. You know, if you're already at this place, but I do think, you know, thanks to, you know, uh, what you're saying to the opening of the platform, to the success of people like you and Joe Rogan and the creation of this alternative media universe. I do think we have a chance to, to remake that case, not just for free speech, but really for this amazing. You know, you know, tiny moment in history where like, actually everybody that's a citizen of a country got to be free.

• 1:18:53Speaker 13

  And, and I, and, and that's a beautiful, wonderful thing. And anybody that's ever traveled outside the United States, I think can see that and appreciate it.

• 1:19:02Tucker Carlson?

  It's the greatest thing that we have. And the reason we have it is because we've reminded ourselves generationally, because we told the story of it, this is the greatest thing that we have. And I can't think of a greater tragedy, a more perverse tragedy than the assassination of Charlie Kirk being leveraged by people in order to construct a world that he hated and fought against for his entire short life. To use Charlie's assassination as a pretext for censorship? I, I, I mean, the, the mind struggles even to, to understand that, but that's how brazen people are. So. I hate to ask you this, but you've thought so deeply about it. Maybe you have an answer. I don't. What's the motive for all this? Like, why would you want to conduct hideous medical experiments on children?

• 1:19:45Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't benefit you. It doesn't benefit them. Like what, what is this actually?

• 1:19:51Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, you know, as you, as you probably remember in one of my, my last book on the homeless crisis, I put a lot of emphasis on this desire from the left to be compassionate and to think of ourselves as good people. And that really, the idea, and it's really this immediate emotive, you know, like with addiction, people that are crying out there saying, I'm fine and I'm fine in my, living in my waist and being sexually assaulted every night. I'm just fine. Let me just smoke some more fentanyl. Everybody should know that that person needs an intervention so that they stop harming themselves in public. But the emotionalism and the sentimentality, that immediate appeal to, oh no, it's somehow cruel.

• 1:20:33Speaker 13

  That it's somehow cruel to allow, you know, to enforce laws and mandate care for people. So on one hand, it does seem like this empathy of like, oh, we have to protect people. But I also think there is something, you know, darker and more selfish and frankly, more hedonistic than that, which is, as you were saying, I mean, the, the, the ability to censor somebody is an incredible act of power and domination. It's not something that we, the weak can't censor people. I mean, you look at any movement for human liberation, like the weak don't have the power to censor. The censorship comes from these really arrogant, overly empowered, overly powerful, entitled elites

• 1:21:15Speaker 13

  displaying traits of frankly antisocial disorder with no empathy for the people that they're censoring. And so I think that my views are that there's certainly plenty of people that think that, that feel that they're being empathic, but I think a lot of other people, it's will to power and nothing besides, to paraphrase Nietzsche, where it's actually the pleasure of just controlling what people can say online. I mean, the people, these censors have now, we've profiled them and we've written, you know, we, we haven't published all of it, but we. Try to understand the people that that are doing this very deeply at a psychological level, and they're just absolutely power hungry and they're completely arrogant like

• 1:21:58Speaker 13

  they're enclosed minded and frankly, not very smart. I mean, that's the thing you forget about the totalitarianists. You know, it's depressing because I think there's a lot. There's a story that's a story that's getting told. I won't say everybody knows by who, but somebody there's somebody on the right that's sort of telling a story about how terrible democracy is and how if we if we had an autocracy would be run by somebody competent like Elon Musk and everything would work great. Actually, the history of totalitarianism is that it's the incompetent, awful idiotic bureaucrats Of course. that are running things. It's not like it's not Mozart and Goethe and Nietzsche that are like, you know, running things. It's like these very crude, dumb people. And so you see someone like Nina Jankowicz or Rene De Resta. Exactly.

• 1:22:41Speaker 13

  These are really power hungry, very petty, small people. There's so much kind of just a kind of almost like a neediness there. You see it in some of them and need a neediness for people to tell them how good they are and how much they care. A lot of like, you know, if you remember the movie Misery, the Kathy Bates character, I sort of say a lot of that Kathy Bates energy of, you know, I'm going to take care of you, but it's actually I'm going to dominate. So I think that when we I think that people sometimes sort of say it's suicidal empathy, or it's pathological altruism, and I know what they mean. I think that what's underneath it is something darker, more nihilistic that is just feeding hedonistically off the power of dominating and censoring and persecuting

• 1:23:26Speaker 13

  others that really isn't in service, you know, as you know, we've, you know, as the foundational spiritualities and and philosophies of the West have aimed at that power be used in service of Of beautiful values, it's not, it's not in service of that. It's just in service of their own individual expression of power. And like you said, you know, if it's, if it's to censor you on COVID or antisemitism, or trans, or migration, or the Ukraine war, they don't care. Like, they're always wanting to find new ways to censor because it's coming from something so deep, something so deep and frankly pathological inside of them.

• 1:24:06Tucker Carlson?

  It's the war impulse is so similar, killing people being the ultimate expression of power. You know, you can't create life, but you can end it. And there, there are people, and I would say Lindsey Graham is one of them, but there are many who just derive pleasure from the idea of killing people, not just because they're cruel, though obviously they are, but because it makes them feel alive. And I think there's something, you see it in school, demonstrators. So I have, I really feel like we're on the cusp of like something great. Charlie Kirk's memorial on Sunday made me feel that way. I feel like it's not all darkness and like, don't take the black pill. You know, there is light there. And so I feel that way. But then you see, I have to say, video of Don Bacon, the Republican

• 1:24:51Tucker Carlson?

  Congressman from Nebraska, the most normal state out of 50, saying, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm talking to Jonathan Greenblatt, who's like a gargoyle from ADL, which is like the most anti-human organization like I've ever dealt with in my life. And you feel like, wow, if Don Bacon is taking orders from the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt, then like, the fix is in. Like, it's a bipartisan conspiracy to strip people of their most basic freedom.

• 1:25:20Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, I think that, for me also, what comes up, Tucker, and I know that this is something that you are concerned about too, is that I think you were saying it before, like, there's a censorship, and then there's, well, there's actually so many sides to the totalitarianism. There's the censorship, there's the disinformation and dehumanization that the state or these peristatal. Censorship, you know, proxy entities play. And then there's the secrecy. And so I think what we now know, and again, I've, I've said very clearly and praised the Trump administration. They've actually been helpful in my own case in Brazil, where I'm, I'm under criminal investigation for the Twitter files, Brazil. And so I'm very grateful to the Trump administration. I hope that's clear.

• 1:26:02Speaker 13

  But nonetheless, I think we can see that there are clearly some things that we're not, that they really don't want us to know about. And the Epstein one, the Jeffrey Epstein situation is easily, I think, the most explosive and most famous one. Where everybody knows there's these files and everybody knows that they're the FBI and DOJ. And everybody knows that there's no legal barriers to releasing them and that there's all these excuses. Or everybody knows that it's not just Jeffrey Epstein's own personal pornography collection. Um, and that the story has kept shifting. But, you know, it looks like there may now be enough votes in, in the House pretty soon to force a vote on it. I think Speaker Johnson could still try to stop that.

• 1:26:44Speaker 13

  But I think I'm heartened that, uh, the MAGA movement, uh, actually remained true to following that issue through to the end. But, um, I think we've seen that there's, you know, frankly, a secret government that, I mean, we can, people will say that sounds conspiratorial. But I think if you realize what the Epstein files are, and that it was covering up almost certainly, very likely, a sex blackmail operation. And by the way, we didn't even have proof of the hidden cameras until a couple of weeks ago, when the New York Times published two photos of the hidden cameras. One of them pointing right at a bed in Epstein's New York apartment. I think we know that, and you know, we had, and Massey was in, you know, Congressman Massey was in Congress last week.

• 1:27:29Speaker 13

  And he said there was 20 names that he knows who they are that are in the files. He gave us one of them, CEO of Barclays Bank. And then he kind of listed who the other ones were. One of them was like a, you know, Hollywood producer, rock star, magician. Um, so we know all these things. It, I think it's a really important test. I think it's really important that all of us that. Are sympathetic to things the Trump administration has done that we continue to not let the Epstein issue go. And then I think the other issue Tucker that I know you care a lot about is the UAP issue. The president said after the drones over the drones over New Jersey, the unidentified, mostly unidentified drones over New Jersey, that we were going to be able to find what that is.

• 1:28:11Speaker 13

  I have a list of all of the key documents provided me by John Greenwald of the document, the UAP documents that exist, that have many of which have been released and have just been so heavily redacted. They need to release these things. They need to stop hiding this. And I'll just end by saying on this to culminate it all. Look, the elephant in the room here is the CIA. You know, you've got this wonderful reform leader in Tulsi Gabbard, who is a unifying leader. She has so much trust from people that were on the left. So much trust from the MAGA community. She's obviously a good person, like anybody that has ever met her. She is a good person. That's correct.

• 1:28:51Speaker 13

  And she, she by law, Congress after nine 11, made this law that she is the boss of the intelligence community. That is what the law requires. But we have this recalcitrant CIA where, I mean, come on, guys, like, we have not seen significant change to personnel. Apparently only two of the people that worked on the bogus intelligence community assessment about Russia interference on 2016 elections, only two of those people are gone. It's the response from CIA to us. There, I frankly found there what they told us to be just patronizing to the point of offensive

• 1:29:31Speaker 13

  in insisting, you know, it's basically trust us, bro. It's all good now. The CIA is fine. The CIA is not fine. The CIA is hiding information that the American people paid for and have a right to know on a lot of issues. A lot. UAP, Epstein, Congressman Massey revealed that there is a CIA file on Epstein that needs to come out. And look, Maybe CIA shouldn't exist. I mean Senator Moynihan before he died and uh uh Kennedy's historian, why am I blanking his name?

• 1:30:07Tucker Carlson?

  Schlesinger.

• 1:30:07Speaker 13

  Schlesinger?

• 1:30:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Speaker 13

  Schlesinger. There's been various proposals to break up the CIA. You know, frankly, it's a paramilitary organization ever since nine 11. It was supposed to be an Truman wanted an intel organization. We need good intel. By the way, congratulations on your brilliant documentary. I saw the first part of it last night. So now it appears, if I'm understanding correctly, that the CIA was probably behind uh the nine 11 attacks. It was a botched uh CIA operation. It sounds like I haven't finished your series. But here you have this. So when you kind of go, so here you have an organization that's responsible for just the worst like regime change coups, followed by dictators who tortured people. CIA that, you know, infiltrated American

• 1:30:51Speaker 13

  student groups that used labor unions to, you know, engage in regime change. Um, you know, that spawned off people that were involved in the censorship industrial complex and lawfare may have been, it sounds like what you're saying, you know, that uh was behind, or at least uh didn't stop or contributed to the nine 11 attacks. And then they did the torture after nine 11, which not only doesn't work, uh like creates bad information and is a stain on the moral character of the United States. At a certain point, you're like, what is this dog of an organization doing, being just unreformed and trampling on all of our basic, you know, freedoms? So I mean, I, you know, I kind of go, I think

• 1:31:36Speaker 13

  we just need to tell people that we don't really govern ourselves as long as you have this, you know, uh mess of an institution called the CIA, where a bunch of analysts uh kind of appear to run the world. As long as that organization remains unreformed, and we don't really get true disclosure about all the things that we know are going on, then I think we should be pretty unhappy and pretty demanding of much more significant reforms than it appears uh the Trump administration is going to pursue.

• 1:32:03Tucker Carlson?

  I'd settle for real oversight rather than, you know, Tom Cotton, who runs the Senate Intelligence Committee, is basically just an apologist for the CIA. There's no oversight at all. He carries water for the agency in ways that hurt this country. And it's, I'm not exactly sure why, like, what is that? And I don't know the answer. People can speculate all they want. I do want to just go back and thank you for what you said. It's all true. It's true.

• 1:32:30Speaker 13

  Okay, good. I hadn't seen the end of it, but I saw the first part. It's amazing, by the way.

• 1:32:34Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, I'm not talking about our documentary series. I was just saying your analysis of CIA. I mean, how many people do you think in the White House right now know what the actual CIA budget is? You know, I'd be surprised if you could find someone. I don't, I've never met anyone who can act, who can even, they can't tell you because it's classified. But, and I assume supposedly the House and Senate Intel Committee Chairman know what the full budget is. But I would be shocked if they actually did. I mean, it's its own country. It's autonomous. It doesn't have oversight. It doesn't have committed control structures. It just kind of does what it wants. It lies about what it does. There's no way to know for a fact. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a separate government within our borders. Just

• 1:33:19Tucker Carlson?

  like they had in Portland, Oregon at the, you know, the height of George Floyd.

• 1:33:24Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:33:24Tucker Carlson?

  But I just want to ask you about something that you said about the, the drone sighting or the lights in the sky over New Jersey last year. And, you know, so many sightings that it's really no dispute that it happened. The question is, what is it? And the president said that he would tell us. We've never heard. What was that, do you think?

• 1:33:46Speaker 13

  I don't know. And, you know, they're having also very similar drone sightings now over in Denmark that actually shut down both Danish airports on Sunday. I mean, it's a,

• 1:33:59Speaker 13

  yeah, I mean, and why can't we know about it? You know, and

• 1:34:02Tucker Carlson?

  But what's your sense? I know that you, you've done a lot on this. I, I've talked to you off, you know, off camera, just intrigue, because I, you're one of the few people whose judgment on this I trust. There's so much deception on this question. I think parts of it, what's the term they use? It's an op. I think part of it is, part of the explanation is, but at its core, are physical phenomena that have been recorded in such volume at such scale that like something real is happening. And I, and I know you don't really have the final answer on that, but what is your sense?

• 1:34:36Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, I think, look, first of all, the government is engaged in extensive disinformation on this topic.

• 1:34:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:34:43Speaker 13

  That's not, that's not, that's just all confirmed, like.

• 1:34:46Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:34:46Speaker 13

  It's been well documented what they've done. I mean, there's a, you know, there's a, there's an alien crash retrieval manual that is, you know, that is officially, according to the official story, a total fake, a total fabrication. But I mean, when you look at it, it is extraordinary in its quality of, like, if it is a fake, I mean, complete with like the names of the people who checked it out and those people having been checked out. Who, who would do that? Like, why would you do that? Well, one story is that it was used as passage material to identify counterintelligence spies in the US intelligence community, but nonetheless, there's been so much government misinformation.

• 1:35:27Speaker 13

  There's also been, you know, efforts to, there's also secret, you know, technology projects. I mean, one of the guys that testified at the UAP hearing last week just said that, that he has seen successful reverse engineering of technologies. You know, there's a whole kind of Pentagon technological side of this that many other people have done so much better work on and reporting on than me, Jesse Michaels being one of the leaders of kind of unearthing it. I will say, I don't think any of it could all be reduced to hard military hardware, either ours or somebody else's. I'm very confident that there's just way too many cases that don't fit that.

• 1:36:08Speaker 13

  I also think that Jacques Vallée has done really some of the most important scholarship on this. I find myself, and he just gave a presentation on it. He's like, he's the French character played by Francois Truffaut in Close Encounters of the Third Kind by Steven Spielberg, a French researcher who's just sort of a international treasure of UFO, you know, cases. And, you know, he's actually gone in a very similar direction that you've gone. And I find myself going there a little bit too, which is that there is a spiritual element to this that I don't think is just purely attributable to technology, because the issue is such a gestalt. Uh, issue because, you know, if you look like in a classic Gestalt, is it an old woman?

• 1:36:52Speaker 13

  Is it a young woman? Is this a spiritual issue sort of manifesting as sort of some high-tech hardware? Or is it some high-tech civilization manifesting as something spiritual? I find myself really gravitating towards these cases, which is also where a valet encouraged a lot of new research. One of which is my favorite is this English woman in the countryside who had a UFO sighting in the 50s. And I would dare anyone to watch that. And she describes seeing, you know, she's like a very working-class Englishwoman. It's a beautiful interview with her done, it's like BBC or somebody. And they just described what you saw, you know, she said she hears this noise, her two

• 1:37:36Speaker 13

  boys are in the front yard, she sees a huge UFO over her house. He asked her to describe it. And she said, what can I say? It was like a Mexican hat, you know, like a typical, you know, flying saucer with a dome. Her kids were there seeing it. She swears she saw it. She says there was two people inside and they were beautiful people with long blond hair and sort of slightly bigger foreheads and sort of looking at her. And it ends so interesting, she says, you know, we told people about this and then we were ridiculed. And then she said, but it's okay because I know it happened. It's true. And I think, I dare people to watch that and come away thinking that she was lying. I don't think she was lying. Yes.

• 1:38:19Speaker 13

  I also, as you know, I have interviewed a fair number of psychotic people living tragically on the street and people in psychotic states, that's not the kind of story they tell. In fact, I have, I even have, I have homeless people I've been interviewing that are meth-induced psychotic, you know, and meth-induced psychosis, talking about aliens and it's just a lot of word salad and garbled. It's like talking to somebody trying to explain a dream they had, it doesn't make sense. Yes. So I don't think she lied. I don't think she's capable, I think that most actors are bad actors. I don't think she's capable of having invented that and then persuading her children to lie with her. I think that that, she had that experience. I don't think she's psychotic.

• 1:39:02Speaker 13

  I don't really know if anybody knows if that if that if those beings come from a different planet or they're interdimensional or they're spiritual or if they have some other form and they're just manifesting and hologramming like that. I don't know. But I think that the conversation, you know, thanks to, again, people like you and Joe and others, has just widened so that we can see just what a what a big lie it's been that science has really properly accounted for reality. You know, this, you know, Science Magazine did a survey of scientists, including natural scientists, and I think it was somewhere around 60 to 80% of natural scientists, I'm

• 1:39:44Speaker 13

  talking physics and biology and chemistry, were not able to replicate famous studies in their field. They admitted this in a survey and then they would ask them, do you still trust your field of science? And they all said, yes, but they can't replicate basic scientific experiments. They keep changing their mind on the creation stories, the Big Bang. I think there's sufficient doubts about, you know, about human origins. And so, but like, that became, that was so taboo, that was so, you couldn't talk about that in polite society. But I do think now we are able to have those conversations. And I do think it's really notable that at this political shift, there is, I think, a spiritual, a spiritual movement. I mean, I'm obviously really into it.

• 1:40:28Speaker 13

  Other people in my life are not as excited about it. But for me, I think these experiences, you know, the evidence, you know, or the spiritual side of it, the government cover up, you know, are just huge areas that we should be doing so much more research and investigations and journalism on. I get a little frustrated because I think sometimes, I think the conversation right now in the podcast world and in the conversation is just a lot of people are repeating and speculating about stories that we've kind of heard before or sort of know about. But we haven't put nearly enough pressure on the government to release or unredact the documents that

• 1:41:11Speaker 13

  Know exist to come clean about what they appear to know and are unwilling to tell. There should be a real movement around this and there should be consequences for members of Congress. Because that's information that that belongs to all of us. And if there's some evidence of non-human intelligence or a lot of evidence. My understanding, I've been, my understanding, I'm very confident that there are thousands of high-quality videos, photos, sensor data, radar data, a lot, a lot that the military is keeping from us and the CIA is keeping from us. And we should be really upset about that. And I think that for me, I'm, I think that we can, we, there's just been a lot of conversations

• 1:41:54Speaker 13

  where people go around and round about with the data that we know. But what we're missing is the fact that the government, the government is sitting on so much more of it. And I find myself wanting to do more to force it out. And I'm getting frustrated, but I'm a little bit, you know, I think as you've seen, I'm, on the one hand, very grateful to this administration and the strong things it's done. You know, on free speech and the disclosure it's done, certainly disclosing so much more than the last administration. But we still need a lot more. There's still so much that needs to be released on Epstein, on COVID origins, the whole COVID pandemic response, on the weaponization of FBI, the continuing rot. I mean, we were, someone at the CIA told us pathological rot at the CIA.

• 1:42:39Speaker 13

  And we need, we need to know what's going on with the UAPs. It's just the speculate, like you were saying before. It would be irresponsible not to engage in conspiracy theorizing and speculation, given how little information they give to us. And if they were really so concerned about conspiracy theories and speculation and misinformation, then they, they should be releasing those documents.

• 1:43:00Tucker Carlson?

  Well, of course, they foment conspiracy theories and race hatred.

• 1:43:05Tucker Carlson?

  Because it's a distraction from what they're doing. And when I was younger, living in Washington, and I began to understand that the government was systematically lying across agencies about a couple of things, probably a lot of things. But UAPs were definitely one of them. That became obvious a while ago. And I remember asking, you know, like, what is this? And never getting a straight answer, except people would say, look, it's not, it's destabilizing. It would be destabilizing if the public knew and like, who wants an unstable country? You know, there are some things that people just aren't ready for, whatever the euphemism they use, but that was the explanation. As I got older, I began to, you know, talk to other people and have other thoughts. And one of them was totally possible that the government has some, really does have something to hide is participating in things that people would not approve of or be shocked

• 1:43:50Tucker Carlson?

  to learn. And all of that gets to a question that's never occurred to me till right now, but like, who named America's military headquarters after a pentagram? Like, who thought that was a good idea? And I know you've done a lot of research on that period, the war period, like, what, what was that?

• 1:44:10Speaker 13

  Well, yeah, I mean, this is, uh, you know, I haven't seen it yet, so I can't evaluate it yet, and I don't know a lot about it, but yeah, I mean, there's some, there's a real darkness to the whole area.

• 1:44:20Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, let, let, let's call it, let's call the building that controls nuclear weapons, the Pentagon? Uh huh. I mean, it's sort of like right in your face, right? Or no?

• 1:44:30Speaker 13

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, I just haven't looked that much on it. I do know that like, a lot of the UFO stuff is very tied in with the occult. And apparently, apparently, you know, Jesse Michaels again did a, apparently did a, a new documentary on occult. I mean, I'm not vouching, but I don't know about it, but I like Jesse occult behaviors within NASA. Uh, so, uh, very concerning. I don't know what it means. Um, you know, I, I am, I'm shocked by how little curiosity there is at a society-wide level. I think that, you know, the intellectual life of this country, uh, by which, I mean, not just the universities, but also the newspapers and the big media companies, that is how censorship

• 1:45:15Speaker 13

  was done over the last 80 years. The internet is almost a return to a pre-radio, pre-broadcast period, um, when people were really free to just print whatever they wanted. Uh, the internet is not there, but it's, it's a lot closer to it. We finally get to kind of learn that actually there's all these anomalies around human evolution, around. Human history around, you know, archaeological sites where things don't seem to add up right. And you start to get people that were called, you know, pseudo archaeologists, starting to kind of win some arguments publicly. I mean, there's one happening right now around Quebec, like Tepe with this guy Jimmy Corsetti, where he's just shown

• 1:45:59Speaker 13

  that the people that are supposed to be excavating the site are destroying it. Planting trees whose roots will destroy these ancient sites and also building these really grotesque roofing structures in ways that destroy the site. They're very weird and suspicious. Um, there's just a lot of, you know, we know that a lot of the Tesla information was missing. Uh, that, you know, should have shown some very interesting things. And then, yeah, I mean, I think that the relationship with nuclear is one of the most interesting parts of this because these UAPs, they show up around nuclear sites. I used to work on nuclear a lot and

• 1:46:38Speaker 13

  there would be nuclear, there would be these drones, um, these unidentified, uh, uh, they've seemed like objects, but unidentified phenomenon around nuclear power sites. Uh, the nuclear, the people working at them, um, were often very concerned around public perception of danger. And so they often didn't talk about them, but they, they've certainly been over Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant in California. Um, but when the drones happened in New Jersey, well, we caught them in an open lie. I mean, they just said, uh, John Kirby at one point said something like they had evaluated like 3,000 cases of drone sightings in like 48 hours, which is like absurd. There's no possibility they did it. And then we started looking, a set of people started looking and you discover that in fact

• 1:47:22Speaker 13

  there's been these drone swarms around US military bases. I mean, not a couple either. I mean, I think it was somewhere around two or three dozen military bases. And there's a lot of evidence that those, those drones, um, are circling around those moments when there's nuclear weapons uh, in the area. So, um, you know, if it's, I'm skeptical that it's Chinese and Russian because the drones are engaged in behaviors that I think are very difficult, uh, for anybody to do. But I mean, if these objects are behaving in ways that, you know, do appear to be using a different kind of propulsion or anti-gravity. I mean, I'm very skeptical that that's ours in the sense that it takes a lot, it took a huge

• 1:48:05Speaker 13

  effort to create the Manhattan Project and to create nuclear weapons. It was a massive, massive endeavor. And so to somehow easily get or to be able to easily hide reverse engineering, I don't know how you do that. I'm really skeptical that we have it, but it's absurd that we have to just sit around and speculate about it. Like, like, we need, there is basically no transparency. Instead, we have a DOD organization called Arrow, which as far as I can tell is part of a deception operation, consistent with the CIA's recommendations through the Robertson Panel in the 1950s, that the main thing the US government should do is supposedly debunk the UFOs and to ridicule

• 1:48:50Speaker 13

  the people that see them and research them and worse. There's a lot of threats made to people in this field. I personally find it one of the scariest issues. Trans and UAPs are the two, paradoxically, the scariest issues. And because it just seems like a lot of people really don't want us to know what's going on with it. And President Trump sat, made noises like he was going to reveal something. And Tulsi Gabbard just made some noises that she wanted to get to the bottom of it, but otherwise, Tucker, they're just, they just seem like they really, it seems like they want to Jeffrey Epstein, the UAP files.

• 1:49:34Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I don't think there's any, and if you're wondering if there's a spiritual component to the whole thing, if it's about technology and, you know, I don't know, Martians.

• 1:49:43Speaker 13

  Right.

• 1:49:44Tucker Carlson?

  Probably not going to be this kind of response to it. I mean, this just glows with intensity. Again, it's the Pentagon. So yeah, there's a spiritual component to it, I would say. I've been scared off too. It's like, I don't even want to deal with it. But I'm grateful for you, Mike Schellenberger, really, I'm so grateful you went into journalism. There are few people with, you know, you could be doing a lot of other things. There are not that many super smart people in journalism with, you know, true principles. And you're definitely one of the very few. And so I'm always grateful. To talk to you and I'm grateful you're doing what you're doing. So thanks Tucker.

• 1:50:21Speaker 13

  Thank you. I'm back at you and congratulations on coming back to your famous monologues. And I was really delighted that you did it on free speech and I hope you keep doing a weekly monologue.

• 1:50:33Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's uh. Getting all spun up. Yeah, I enjoy it. Thank you. We can have dinner soon. Great to see you. The great Mike Schellenberger. We'll be back next week. Good night.

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