Notable Moment: This Is The Real Reason You Can't Change Your Life: Doctor Alok Kanojia

In this moment, world-leading men’s mental health coach and psychiatrist, Dr K discusses the ways people try and fail to put trauma behind them as well as the REAL way to overcome it. Most people who have a history of trauma will try and overcompensate in the way they build their future lives. For instance, people can try to overcome the trauma of bullying by becoming invisible or becoming successful to overcoming past shame. However, no matter what people do to adapt to the historic trauma, it still remains in the mind. This can be seen in peoples responses to events that trigger memories of their past trauma. Instead of this overcompensation, Dr K says that you need to dismantle your worldview by slowing down the mind and paying attention to your thoughts and feelings. He believes that this awareness is a superpower that everyone is ignoring, as the more aware you are in the present moment, the more your problems fade away. Listen to the full episode here - Spotify- https://g2ul0.app.link//Y3cK1DDNTOb Apple - https://g2ul0.app.link//nbunQIHNTOb Watch the Episodes On Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos Dr Alok: https://www.healthygamer.gg/dr-alok-kanojia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Alok Kanojia?

  No amount of fixing your life will make that kid go away.

• 0:10Alok Kanojia?

  Right? So like when I work with people who are, I see you smiling. So like when I work with people who have been traumatized, they will build amazing lives, but they still carry that kid with them. And the kid will come out at times. There'll be particular times where if I'm a little bit, like if I like treat you in the wrong way, like you'll notice that you feel like that kid again. When you're idle, you feel like that kid again. So that psychological, that neuronal wiring is there. So you can build all this wonderful stuff and there's authenticity. It's not like you're faking it. This is a really common misconception that, are you faking? No, you're genuinely confident, you're genuinely authentic. You can't fake it and get to where you are. And at the same time, the wounds that we experience leave scars.

• 0:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 0:55Alok Kanojia?

  And the real way to heal is to go back to that moment and like deal with that kid, right? You have to dismantle the worldview that you have, which is how you heal trauma. Is when we get traumatized, we adapt. In order to come out of this situation, I need to learn this particular thing. So some kids that I've worked with adapt by becoming invisible. That's what I did. I got bullied a lot. So what do I do? I learn how to be invisible. Some people adapt by being successful. So if I'm successful, it's an antidote to my shame. I don't have to be ashamed anymore if I'm successful. But that old injury is still there.

• 1:34Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And this is why it's so complex because what you've just said is so unbelievably true, but it's where the misconception happens. Because I don't go home and I'm not like insecure or I'm not unconfident. Like I'm, I think like when I'm on my own, I'm very, very okay with who I am, with myself. I'm very, very like, I feel like the guy that you experience on camera is very close to who I am when I'm in the hotel room alone at night. However, it doesn't mean that I still don't have those like childhood bruises and that they can't be pressed by various things. And so it's this sort of this one, it's because you know, when we say these words like insecurity and shame, you think, you'd think that like I walk into the green room over there and I'm like,

• 2:19Steven Bartlett?

  oh, that's not, that's not my life. But when I Where I know that there's still something there is I go, how that, why are you still driving like this?

• 2:31Alok Kanojia?

  Exactly.

• 2:31Steven Bartlett?

  When you are so well aware that it will not lead to any more happiness in any context. Like, I'm so logically aware that becoming more will not have any impact on the things that matter, yet here I am, still building businesses and, you know, and this is the constant thing I battle with. So I go, okay, well, there must be a force that you're consciously unaware of that's making you go, go on.

• 2:54Alok Kanojia?

  Exactly. Yeah. Right? So let's understand a couple of things. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, Stephen, beautiful. So a couple of things to understand. We think about healing as a, as one spectrum, right? So if I'm at negative 100, I can't also be a positive 100. Those two things cancel out. That's not how it works. So if I give you a glass of water and then I piss in it and then I add sugar, it doesn't remove the piss. These are both independent things. This is what tends to happen. This is what we don't understand about trauma. Removing the piss requires removing the piss. No amount of sugar will take it out of the drink. Okay? So no amount of, this is mistake number one. No amount of building something good will remove something bad. Okay?

• 3:38Alok Kanojia?

  So healing, and it's also like, you know, if I break a leg, no amount of bench press will heal my leg. Like, I can build as much as I want to, I can fix my hair, I can brush my teeth, but the leg is broken, the leg is broken. Same is true of the mind. Okay? Second thing is what happens is we have, like, our consciousness is divided. Now we're going to get kind of technical and off the rails. So we have all of these, like, dormant pieces of our consciousness that activate in certain situations. And all you have to do is pay attention to yourself in a five-minute period and you'll see this. So when I walk into a bathroom that I've never used before. Then I start thinking about, okay, where's the flush? Where's the toilet? How do I use this toilet?

• 4:20Alok Kanojia?

  You know, so like, I'll activate dormant information all the time. So if someone asks me, what's, you know, the quadratic equation? That information is there and dormant in my mind and it gets activated. So one of the biggest mistakes we make about healing is we look at what is active in our mind 90% of the time and we assume that the injury is no longer there. That's not the case. Does that make sense?

• 4:41Steven Bartlett?

  Hundred percent.

• 4:42Alok Kanojia?

  Right? So the injury just goes dormant. Then there are certain things that happen that can trigger that injury. That's what we call triggers, right? So if I'm traumatized, if we look at like PTSD and I've been traumatized by, you know, a bomb going off, literally my brain has certain circuits that scans my perceptual environment and decides what to activate. So there are ways, stillness makes you feel small. And fuck you if you're ever gonna be small again. Never again, never again, never again. I would bet money that if you sit by yourself and you're not occupied, right? That's why you have to watch crime shows. Because if you don't watch crime shows, you're gonna be still.

• 5:25Alok Kanojia?

  And if you're still, that's unacceptable. Okay? So dormant things have to be healed where they belong. You don't need to worry, by the way. It's in your karma. It's gonna get healed and it's coming.

• 5:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I was laughing because it's so true.

• 5:38Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah.

• 5:38Steven Bartlett?

  Just laughing at the fact that I, when I go to Bali, I end up, that's like where I end up writing a book.

• 5:42Alok Kanojia?

  Right. And people would kill for that, right? So many people out there are like, oh man, I would love to be you. No, you guys don't wanna be Steven. I know you think you do, but this is the crazy thing. We each as human beings have our own journey. And are you privileged and should you be grateful and should people aspire to be you? Absolutely, but they don't wanna be you. Like, your own problems are enough. They don't need yours too.

• 6:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, amen.

• 6:06Alok Kanojia?

  So now the question is, how do we heal? So I think the problem is like, no amount of fixing things over there is gonna go back to this. And this is where I, we can look at the science of healing trauma. So here are the steps. First thing is safety, so that we can get neuroplasticity. Second thing is emotional awareness and emotional regulation. And this allows us for number three, which is really important, which is identity. So if we look at our human sense of identity, how do you develop an identity? So if I were to ask you in three sentences, Steven, who are you?

• 6:40Steven Bartlett?

  My identity?

• 6:41Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, tell me, who's Stephen?

• 6:43Steven Bartlett?

  To myself, or just to the world? Or is that the same thing?

• 6:45Alok Kanojia?

  Tell me about who's Stephen?

• 6:46Steven Bartlett?

  I'm an entrepreneur. I am a... I guess I'm a podcaster now. And I am... I was gonna say a Manchester United fan.

• 6:59Alok Kanojia?

  Okay. So I think those are three features, right? So I've read your bio. So the other thing that you tend to do in your bio is there's a narrative, right? You were a college dropout.

• 7:08Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Alok Kanojia?

  You started a company, right? You talked about this Louis Vuitton bag phase. And then there's the post Louis Vuitton bag phase. And even before we had this podcast, you were talking to me about the phases of your life. So identity requires a timeline.

• 7:25Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 7:26Alok Kanojia?

  Now, the interesting thing is if we look at the formative moments of your life, they all have emotion. So this is what's really important. If you have an identity that is bad in any way, you can never change that identity without emotions. So what happened, so my... Like, when I tell my story, it's like, I was a kid. Nine years old, I got put on these expectations, dropped out of college, went to become a monk, went to medical school, became a doctor. Now I started this whole helping random people on the internet thing. So each of those were emotional experiences. So who we are is a narrative of our most emotional experiences. And we see this in all of our superhero movies, right?

• 8:10Alok Kanojia?

  Batman had this tragic experience where his parents were shot by the Joker. And then he became something, right? There are all these moments, these powerful emotional moments. So if your emotions are dulled by drugs, by technology, by pornography, by watching serial killer shows, you will never change who you are. It is impossible. The neuroscience of your identity and development requires emotional experience. Okay? So with trauma, that's the next thing that happens. Once we have access to emotions, then we can become someone else.

• 8:42Alok Kanojia?

  Now, the problem with trauma is that before we become someone else, the beliefs we have about ourselves become our destiny. So if I think to myself, "I'm a loser." So when I was interviewing for residency, I went to an interview somewhere on the West Coast. And the director of the program called me at the end of the interview, and they're like, "We don't understand why you're here." And I was like, "What do you mean you don't understand why I'm here?" And they're like, "Your application is really good. You could end up at any program in the country. Like, why did you pick us?" And I was like, "I picked y'all because I liked the way that your hospital works, and I like that the city it's in, and I'm super into complementing all of it." They're like, "What do you mean? Why am I here?" Right?

• 9:25Alok Kanojia?

  But the way that he approached it with a lack of confidence, he's like, "Our program sucks." And they had some problems at the program at the time, so it kind of makes sense. But this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I go into a job interview and I feel a lack of confidence, if I believe I'm a loser, then I'm not going to get the job. You used to go to clubs and buy bottles of champagnes and thought that you were a loser, didn't end up where you wanted to go. So this is what a lot of people don't understand. Everyone's focused on productivity. But the single most important thing that will determine your future is your sense of who you are. And that's not like some, "Oh, spiritual, get connected with you." This is like fucking science, right? If you believe you are a loser, the empathic circuits of other people's brains will detect that in you,

• 10:10Alok Kanojia?

  and they will treat you like a loser. You carry who you are with you. That's why you get into failed relationship number one, failed relationship number two, failed relationship number three, until you changed. And when you change, your sense of identity changes, then your future will change. The last thing to do is, on a more microscopic level, look at these responses within yourself. So you asked me at the very beginning of the podcast, and now we're coming full circle, "How do you start understanding yourself?" So you look at the drives within yourself, right? "Why can't I sit still?" And this is going to be so hard for you, because if I told you... If I told you, "Steven, if you want to heal your trauma,

• 10:55Alok Kanojia?

  you need to go to Bali, you need to sit on a beach, and you need to do nothing," you will still turn that into growth and progress. Because what you'll say is, "Oh, this is what Dr. K told me to heal my trauma, so now I'm doing even more important work than a podcast for 10 million people on the internet. Now I'm doing the healing of my trauma, which is the goal." And you're still running away from yourself. There's no way you can run away from it. Your mind will transform the very thing that you do into the problem. And that's what trauma does.

• 11:27Alok Kanojia?

  I'll give you a chance to respond, because I've been... No, I'm waiting for the solution, Dr. K. Yeah, so, I mean, in your case, I think it's like, sit. Just sit. And you have to be careful, because if your mind turns the sitting into a goal that I have to achieve, "Oh, I need to sit, and that will be my growth." No, no fucking goal. Just sit. Waste your time. What you need to learn how to do is waste your time. Do nothing. Sit. Be with yourself. And watch out for that mind. The second thing is awareness, okay? So as you sit, you will notice all of these things come up. So this is like, you wanted to... You asked me a question at the beginning, "How do you start?" So what I would say is, sit for five minutes, 15 minutes.

• 12:09Alok Kanojia?

  Sometimes we'll tell people to stare at a wall for an hour. And just look at what on earth goes on inside you. You will discover that it is a zoo of thoughts, feelings, emotions, drives, panics, worries, distractions. Your internal environment is such a mess. So what we need to do is just kind of calm that stuff down by like, just letting it kind of run out of steam. So this is a principle of the mind, that if we feed our mind, it'll continue to grow. But like, what we need to do is just let it run out of steam. So just sit and do nothing for a while. People don't realize.

• 12:49Alok Kanojia?

  The part of our brain that exerts willpower has something to do with this part of our brain called the anterior cingulate cortex. The anterior cingulate cortex is a piece of where willpower comes from, but it is also the part of our brain that monitors conflict. So willpower and monitoring a conflict are actually technically the same thing. The same part of the brain activates. And if you guys, if you pay attention to your own internal experience, what you'll realize is anytime you're using willpower, there's an internal struggle that you are paying attention to. It's like, "I don't want to order chicken, I want to order fried chicken." So there's a monitoring of the conflict that goes on.

• 13:33Alok Kanojia?

  That's anytime you're exerting willpower, there's this thing this way and this thing this way, but you are aware of it. You can't exert willpower if you're behaving automatically, right? That's why it's so easy to get lost in doom scrolling, because you're not even aware of what you're doing before, and then four hours have gone by and you're like, "What? What happened?" You're not aware. So this is the crazy thing from a neuroscientific perspective, and this is what the yogis will teach as well. Awareness is willpower. Awareness is self-control. And I've worked with tons of addicts. They come up for air. And maybe you've done this, and maybe people at home have done this. You go on this binge, and then you come up for air, and you're like, "What have I been doing for a couple of days? What I've been doing for a couple of hours?" Then you gain that awareness again.

• 14:17Alok Kanojia?

  So the more that you are aware in the present moment, the more your problems will literally melt away. It's like crazy. I don't quite know how it works, but this is what yoga teaches you, that as you are aware, as you are aware, as you are aware, you stop rejecting things, you start accepting things, you focus on the present. All this stuff that everyone talks about is actually rooted in awareness. And we live in a society where I say, if I say, "You don't need habits, you don't need willpower, you don't need discipline, all you need is awareness," people will reject me. That doesn't mean it isn't true. And the more that you explore awareness, the more you will realize, like, I used to think it was like 50/50. I'm now at like 90% of the problem is awareness. I know it's weird.

• 15:02Steven Bartlett?

  No, but does that because we tend to look for solutions that involve action. Like, you know, buy that thing, make that list, go to that meeting, watch that thing. It's all about action, action, action as a solution to our problems. So I was expecting you to tell me that the solution to everything we've discussed here is like the seven step process of like, write this thing down, say this thing and you know.

• 15:26Alok Kanojia?

  Okay, so let's, let's understand this, okay? You work really hard, Stephen. Is it hard to work hard?

• 15:36Steven Bartlett?

  For me?

• 15:37Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 15:38Alok Kanojia?

  Okay. So now we have to understand, why is it not hard for you to work hard?

• 15:46Steven Bartlett?

  It's, why is it not hard for me to work hard? Because it feels good to work hard?

• 15:51Alok Kanojia?

  Absolutely. So your problem, see, this is the whole problem that everyone makes. So Stephen, you started a company when?

• 15:59Steven Bartlett?

  Uh, first one, I was very young, but we won't count that because I didn't register the company. So the first one that was registered would have been when I was 18.

• 16:08Alok Kanojia?

  Okay. And you've started how many companies or been involved in how many companies?

• 16:11Steven Bartlett?

  10, what, 10, 20, yeah.

• 16:13Alok Kanojia?

  And made like millions and millions of dollars and stuff? Yeah, right? Started a podcast, you've got how many millions of subscribers now?

• 16:20Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm, across the platforms, maybe 10 million.

• 16:23Alok Kanojia?

  Okay, cool, right? So like, this is a lot of work. And everyone's like, oh my God, I want to be like Stephen. But the whole thing is, it's not hard for you. It's hard for you to not do it. So this is what I'm saying. You don't need to focus on the action. It's the internal thing that drives you like a fucking slave. That is responsible for your success. If someone else wants a fraction of what you have, 10% of what you have, they don't need to duplicate your actions, they need to duplicate what's going on on the inside. This is exactly my point.