#556: The Incredible Kyle Maynard — Fear{less} with Tim Ferriss

Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease out the routines, habits, et cetera that you can apply to your own life. You’ll get plenty of that in this special episode, which features my interview with Kyle Maynard from my 2017 TV Show Fear{less} https://youtu.be/21EI93rB8pI. The “less” is in parentheses because the objective is to teach you to fear less, not to be fearless. Fear{less} features in-depth, long-form conversations with top performers, focusing on how they’ve overcome fears and made hard decisions, embracing discomfort and thinking big. It was produced by Wild West Productions, and I worked with them to make both the video and audio available to you for free, my dear listeners. You can find the video of this episode https://youtu.be/21EI93rB8pI on YouTube.com/TimFerriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss, and eventually you’ll be able to see all episodes for free at YouTube.com/TimFerriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss. Spearheaded by actor/producer and past podcast guest Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Wild West Productions https://twitter.com/wildwest has produced a string of hit movies including The Internship https://www.amazon.com/Internship-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B00F55HNBY/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Couples Retreat https://www.amazon.com/Couples-Retreat-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B009CFYVJK/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Four Christmases https://www.amazon.com/Four-Christmases-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B0091X5IWM/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, and The Break-Up https://www.amazon.com/Break-Up-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B009CFY4NS/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20. In 2020, Wild West produced the comedy The Opening Act https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Act-Jimmy-Yang/dp/B08K39LBD2/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, starring Jimmy O. Yang and Cedric The Entertainer. In addition to Fear{less}, their television credits include Undeniable with Joe Buck https://audiencenetwork.att.com/audience/undeniable/season-5, ESPN’s 30 for 30 episode https://plus.espn.com/30-for-30 about the ’85 Bears, and the Netflix animated show F is for Family https://www.netflix.com/title/80028732. Please enjoy! * This episode is brought to you by “5-Bullet Friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/?utm_source=timblog&utm_medium=timblog&utm_campaign=podcast-sponsorship,” my very own email newsletter that every Friday features five bullet points highlighting cool things I’ve found that week, including apps, books, documentaries, gadgets, albums, articles, TV shows, new hacks or tricks, and—of course—all sorts of weird stuff I’ve dug up from around the world. It’s free, it’s always going to be free, and you can subscribe now at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/?utm_source=timblog&utm_medium=timblog&utm_campaign=podcast-sponsorship. * For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Five Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers, and it's super, super simple. It does not clog up your inbox. Every Friday, I send out five bullet points, super short, of the coolest things I've found that week, which sometimes includes apps, books, documentaries, supplements, gadgets, new self experiments, hacks, tricks, and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys, podcast listeners and book readers, have asked me for something short and action-packed for a very long time, because after all, the podcasts, the books, they can be quite long. And that's why I created Five Bullet Friday. It's become one of my favorite things I do every week. It's free,

• 0:44Tim Ferriss?

  it's always gonna be free, and you can learn more at tim.blog/friday. That's tim.blog/friday. I get asked a lot how I meet guests for the podcast, some of the most amazing people I've ever interacted with, and little known fact, I've met probably 25% of them because they first subscribed to Five Bullet Friday. So you'll be in good company. It's a lot of fun. Five Bullet Friday is only available if you subscribe via email. I do not publish the content on the blog or anywhere else. Also, if I'm doing small in-person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else that's very limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So, check it out, tim.blog/friday.

• 1:27Tim Ferriss?

  If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot, and you can, of course, easily subscribe anytime. So, easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog/friday, and thanks for checking it out, if the spirit moves you.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Can I answer your personal question?

• 1:50Speaker 03

  No, this is an inappropriate time.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 2:07Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, to tease out the routines, habits, etc. that you can apply to your own life. You will get plenty of all of that in this special episode, which features an interview from my 2017 TV show, Fearless. The "less" is in parentheses because the objective is to teach you to fear less, not to be fearless. Fearless features in-depth, long-form conversations with top performers, focusing on how they've overcome fears and made hard decisions, embracing discomfort and thinking big along the way. It was produced by Wild West Productions, and I worked with them to make both the video and audio available to you for free, my dear listeners. So, thank

• 2:50Tim Ferriss?

  you, Wild West. You can find the video of this episode, which is gorgeous, I think they did an incredible job, on youtube.com/TimFerriss. Remember, two Rs, two S's, youtube.com/TimFerriss. And eventually, you'll be able to see all of the episodes for free at youtube.com/TimFerriss. So, you can swing over there and see what is currently up. Before we get started, just a little bit more on Wild West. Spearheaded by actor, producer, and past podcast guest Vince Vaughn, Wild West has produced a string of hit movies, including The Internship, Couples Retreat, Four Christmases, and The Breakup. In 2020, Wild West produced the comedy The Opening Act, starring Jimmy Oh Yang and Cedric the Entertainer. In addition to Fearless, their television credits include Undeniable with

• 3:33Tim Ferriss?

  Joe Buck, ESPN's 30 for 30 episode about the 85 Bears, and the Netflix animated show F is for Family. Wild West has also produced the documentaries Give Us This Day, Game Changers subtitle Dreams of BlizzCon, and Wild West Comedy Show. And now, without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation from Fearless.

• 3:57Tim Ferriss?

  I'm Tim Ferriss, author, entrepreneur, angel investor, and now, TV host. I've spent my entire adult life asking questions, then scouring the globe to find the answers. On this show, I'll share the secrets of pioneers who have faced their own fears. We'll dig into the hard times, big mistakes, tough decisions, and how they got through it all. The goal isn't to be fearless. The goal is to learn to fear less.

• 4:27Tim Ferriss?

  Welcome to Fearless. I'm your host, Tim Ferriss. And on this stage, we'll be deconstructing world-class performers of all types to uncover the specific tactics they've used to overcome doubt, tackle hard decisions, and ultimately succeed on their own terms. My guest tonight is a member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame, New York Times bestselling author, and has summited Mount Kilimanjaro, among others. He inspires audiences around the world with this message, and he conquers challenges with his own unique style. Please welcome to the stage, athlete, author, and mountaineer Kyle Maynard.

• 5:10Tim Ferriss?

  What's up?

• 5:13Tim Ferriss?

  Cool little, around the world, what's up everybody? How's it going, bro?

• 5:26Tim Ferriss?

  You doing good, man? Awesome, man. Thank you.

• 5:34Tim Ferriss?

  All right. You guys ready to get the show started? Yeah! All right.

• 5:47Tim Ferriss?

  It's so nice to see you, man. You too, man, nice to see you. It's been five years. We met a while back, up in Napa. Had quite the adventure. It was. I don't remember most of it, but... Yeah. But I do remember, in the sort of flashes of consciousness in between Too Much Wine, everyone being really, really impressed and inspired by you there. I mean, it was just, it was such a wonder to behold your effect on people. Like, how could that guy be so drunk and still stay in his wheelchair? I was like, how does he remember these one-liners that are brilliant?

• 6:24Tim Ferriss?

  But what I thought we could do, since this is Fearless, is that we could start not with necessarily the highlight reel, but start with some of the challenges. So we are going to begin with a video, and let's take a look.

• 6:38Speaker 04

  Every weekend, we'd go to the tournament, and he would get beat. He would lose, and we'd go and we'd get up at, you know, 6:00 in the morning and drive across the town and go wrestle, and he would get beat. And then I would drive home with him crying, because that emotional side of the sport, you know, that's what was happening that I didn't want to have happen.

• 7:07Tim Ferriss?

  Alright, tell us about your first wrestling season. Then we're gonna back into all the rest, but as a former wrestler, I like talking about wrestling, so let's start there.

• 7:15Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, we could geek out on that. I, um, yeah, I mean, it's a short story. I was terrible. I mean, it was like, basically, people were almost saying it was borderline child abuse that my mom and dad were having me do this, you know? It was, um, it was just crazy. And I think the craziest part of it, too, is if my dad were sitting here with us, and he'd been a wrestler, and he'd kind of been the one to encourage me to go and do it. If he were being honest with us, he would say that he didn't think that I would ever have won a match.

• 7:42Tim Ferriss?

  What was your record like the first season?

• 7:44Speaker 05

  I lost every match that first season and halfway through my second season, so I hadn't, still hadn't won a match.

• 7:49Tim Ferriss?

  What was your last season like?

• 7:51Speaker 05

  So, senior year of high school, had, uh, won 36 varsity matches, beat the state champ from Alabama, Louisiana, went to the Nationals and placed one match from being a high school All-American.

• 8:01Tim Ferriss?

  So...

• 8:09Tim Ferriss?

  Tremendous. And we are gonna dig into a lot of the wrinkles of that. So I don't want to jump too far ahead, but can you explain for people what congenital amputation is?

• 8:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, honestly, I have no idea. Like, really, doctors don't know. I'm not even joking when I say that, but like, when I was born, there was no known cause. And, um, you know, my mom and dad, they were young, they were in their early twenties, and really, they kind of thankfully stopped looking for an answer. They, maybe there's some genetic link, but they don't know.

• 8:37Tim Ferriss?

  Where did you grow up? What was your childhood? How would you describe your childhood? And in the sort of, in the early days?

• 8:43Speaker 05

  In the early days. So I was born at Walter Reed Army Medical. So it's where so many of our, like, veterans that have gone through an amputation have come back to do the rehabilitation, which is crazy that, I mean, just, there was no other reason. They had no idea that I was gonna be born in amputee. Like, no idea at all. The ultrasounds appeared normal. So it was a big surprise at first. And, you know, I say my mom and dad kind of pulled the ultimate. My mom especially, at least, like, this Jedi mind trick, where it was like, "You're not disabled." And I'm like, "Cool, we're not disabled." You know, it was like this kind of attitude of normalcy.

• 9:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 9:14Speaker 05

  And I think that they saw that if they could, if they saw me as normal, then I would see myself that way.

• 9:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I mean, it's... I think we'll talk a lot more about this, but I mean, you definitely, child or adult, you sort of conform to the expectations of the people around you, right? So if your parents are presenting you with that image of yourself, then it makes sense.

• 9:36Speaker 05

  Sometimes, too, I mean, this is kind of, this is like a small thing, but it's, and it's really not. Like, I hear parents that are like, "Oh, my kid's bad at math." I'm like, "What?" Like, he's not, I mean, maybe, you know, whatever, he might be lazy, that might be true, but... They say that, like, "My kid's lazy," or "My kid's bad at math," or something like that. They don't realize how they're actually, like, I think, in a lot of ways, like, they're creating that, right? How they go and see their kids are gonna be how the kids see themselves.

• 9:58Tim Ferriss?

  Totally. Yeah, self-fulfilling prophecy.

• 10:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, but my mom, I mean, she was the coolest with this, where it was like, you know, she wanted me to have friends in the neighborhood, and she knew that the socialization aspects of things were gonna be the most critical to my development, and like, so she would, she'd be out, like, you know, corralling other kids to play, like, neighborhood street hockey games, and, you know, she was working as like a temp secretary, and my dad was in college at the time, they didn't have money, but she, they would buy, like, the Super Nintendo, so like, you know, the newest gaming system, so they'd have friends come over and wanna play.

• 10:25Tim Ferriss?

  Cool. How did you, for instance, just things that I think many people in this audience, probably all of us take for granted, like, how did you learn to eat, for instance?

• 10:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was, um, so that was an example of where my mom wanted to help. You know, she wanted to go and do it for me. My dad, he knew that, you know, it was gonna come a time to, um, you know, that it wanted to go and do it. I would wanna be able to go and do that on my own, right? So I used to use a prosthetic spoon and a lot of times we would forget it and leave it at home and I'd be dependent on my mom or my grandma to feed me. And, you know, it was, he kinda brought up the point, and I kinda say this like jokingly now, but it's true, right? Like, can you imagine, like, seeing your prom date or something like that? I'm not gonna want, like, my mom or grandma hanging out behind me, like, "Oh, here's a bite, Kyle." Like, oh, you know, cool. It's kinda like, he got the bigger picture of the fact that, like, you know, the world was not tailored for someone that was born like me.

• 11:19Speaker 05

  So then, I'd have to be able to adapt to go and figure it out. What was the process like? I mean, I was two or three years old, right? Barely have any conscious, like, memory or recollection of this, but I'd probably dropped the spoon like thousands of times. And did you ever wear prosthetics or consider prosthetics? I did. Um, I wore them up until I was in kindergarten. And, um, for like a little bit on and off, I hated them. They weren't natural, they're big, bulky, and like, it just, they slowed me down more than they helped. It was more of a cosmetic reason that I decided to wear them. But it was, um, actually one day, um, you know, I was sitting like this in a chair, um, surrounded by, you know, my, like, kindergarten classroom,

• 12:04Speaker 05

  and it was my turn to do, like, show and tell. And I had these big prosthetic arms on, and I'm trying to, like, I brought this, like, toy machine gun to school, which wouldn't really fly, but I'm like, nowadays, right? But I'm like taking the hooks from the prosthetic and trying to make the sound with the gun, and like, I fumbled with it and dropped it on the ground, and I couldn't pick, jump out and grab it. And, um, I was so embarrassed, I wanted to come to school without the arms and legs the next day, and like... And my mom just, she just, she called the teacher and just talked to her. And, um, the teacher's like, "Yeah, bring Kyle to the second half of school tomorrow. I'll talk to him in the morning to the kids." And, cause apparently, I mean, it's a group of like kindergarteners, right? So like, it took like, three hours to explain to the class, like, why Kyle had arms and legs yesterday, but he's not going to today.

• 12:51Speaker 05

  You know, this is kinda like tripped the kids out a little bit, right? Totally.

• 12:57Tim Ferriss?

  Like, I know we're working on letters, but take a second.

• 13:02Speaker 05

  But the kids, at the end of the day, they told the teacher, they said that they liked me better like that. And, uh, because I got to jump around, I got to go and play with them and all that, and that was the last time I ever wore them.

• 13:13Tim Ferriss?

  When you were growing up, what were you most afraid of? What intimidated you the most, or what was harder than you thought it would be?

• 13:20Speaker 05

  Uh, definitely girls.

• 13:21Tim Ferriss?

  Girls.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, 100%.

• 13:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:24Tim Ferriss?

  That seems pretty common.

• 13:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, for anybody, right?

• 13:26Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, but yeah, for anybody, but how did you contend with that?

• 13:29Speaker 05

  I was a, I mean, you know, it was, it was actually, you know, it's a lot of, probably at 10 years old and started to become like attracted to girls and stuff. It was like, that was a lot of, probably the questioning of like, what is the rest of my life gonna go and look like? You know, that was a big part of it. I know, you know, it's like with anybody with any type of like physical difference, you know, it's a big thing. It's like, am I gonna be able to find or seek companionship or all that, right? And, um, you know, probably the most fear-filled moment of my entire life to date was, uh, you know, not like Kilimanjaro or like stepping into a cage and fighting MMA, it was like asking my senior prom date out.

• 14:11Speaker 05

  And, cause it, but at the same time too, it's then, you know, now, fast forward to where life is, it's like, I've had an amazing dating life, I've dated some amazing girls, you know, my mom's ticked off that I haven't like settled down to like find the right one yet and give her grandkids, but, you know.

• 14:27Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds like a lot of moms.

• 14:28Speaker 05

  Yeah. You know, I remember, uh, meeting at the event with you, Neil Strauss was there, right?

• 14:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 05

  And I was thinking like, you know.

• 14:34Tim Ferriss?

  So Neil Strauss, he's written eight New York Times bestselling books, including The Game.

• 14:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, and you know, it was like, we should totally have like a pickup seminar for guys in wheelchairs.

• 14:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  You know?

• 14:47Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you know, I wasn't, I was gonna wait until a little bit later to, to ask this. Let's say if you meet a vet who's newly an amputee, and they have some of these concerns, right? What's the rest of my life gonna look like? Am I gonna have companionship? What do you say or do in that situation?

• 15:02Speaker 05

  You know, I think it's really tough because being born the way that I was, yes, like in, in these earlier years, there were a lot of those difficult emotions to process, right? There were a lot of like painful times. I mean, when I was 10 years old, kinda swirling with a lot of the stuff of like, what, what is the future gonna be? I mean, I got to a point where I did not see, like, I didn't wanna go on living at 10, you know? I was like, 10 years old. Obviously now, being able to look back, it, it just, you know, it's,

• 15:34Speaker 05

  I couldn't even imagine what life would be. And I want them, you know, for someone that, if they were a veteran, or if they went through some type of accident or injury, to be able to see that hope and that future, right? But at the same time, have to go and realize that right then, for them in that moment, it's way hard. And it's a thousand times harder, in my opinion, to go through and, you know, if you live 20 or 30 or 40 years with arms and legs, and then you lose them. Your brain and all of its neurology, right? It's hardwired to like, when you know, they go to pick up the coffee cup, they go to pick it up with their hand, right? I've never had that programming. So all of my motor development, all of everything was developed around what I have currently being, since it was congenital. So I think it, you know, and now they're also dealing with all of like the emotional processing side of things too.

• 16:19Speaker 05

  But I just, I really want them to know that they are capable of living whatever life it is that they set out, that they can still create the life that they, they want to, right? It's not gonna be easy, not gonna be, like, they don't have to process some of this stuff and deal with some of this stuff. But just in like the topic of, I mean, the show, it's like, right? Like, fear is, is ubiquitous. I mean, it's, like, everybody experiences it all the time. The difference is the people, I think, that have a great life versus someone that, that's sort of just getting by or struggling, is they think at some point, maybe the fear is just gonna go away, and then they'll be able to start or something like that. You know, I think you just have to be able to jump in and find a way to be able to live your life now, you know?

• 17:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. What kept you going? I mean, 10, that's a really... That's not only a sensitive period, but a really early age at which to have

• 17:11Speaker 05

  A lot of that stuff, yeah.

• 17:12Tim Ferriss?

  That type of darkness, right? What inspired you to keep going? Or what? How did you come out of that?

• 17:20Speaker 05

  I think if I had to pick like a moment in time, it was making my first tackle in football.

• 17:27Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, let's talk about it. Tell us about it.

• 17:29Speaker 05

  I was convinced I was gonna be the quarterback on the team. I was like, no question, they're gonna make me the quarterback. And they told me to line up as a nose guard, so defensive line. And first day of practice, we weren't even like in full pads, but just wearing helmets and stuff. And the center went to go and snap the ball between his legs. I'm lined up right across from him. And they told me my job was like follow the ball. And he basically just like stood straight up. And so I just dove under his legs. And smashed my helmet in the quarterback's legs, knocked him over. First play, got the sack. Came home that night and called my dad. He's out of town on a business trip. And I was like, I think we're done with youth football. I'm going straight to the NFL.

• 18:05Speaker 05

  And...

• 18:06Tim Ferriss?

  So there's a good photo.

• 18:08Speaker 05

  Right.

• 18:09Tim Ferriss?

  So that, that was one of the moments.

• 18:11Speaker 05

  Big time, because it was like at that moment, it was like this moment of achieving something I never thought that I could before. And like, you know, being a part of the team and the camaraderie and all that, right? So it was like, you know, all of these like psychological studies and books on like, you know, engagement and flow and all that, right? You know, when you are in that flow state, then it's like you aren't thinking about anything else, right? That's why I love like jujitsu or mountain climbing, that kind of stuff now. Because it's like when I'm doing that, you know, if I think about like, oh man, I gotta go do my taxes and I get choked.

• 18:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, right. There's an immediate penalty.

• 18:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, big time.

• 18:44Tim Ferriss?

  You're not just sitting on a couch meditating, trying to get into the zone. There's like an immediate repercussion.

• 18:48Speaker 05

  Immediate repercussion. But like in that moment, it was like I wasn't worried about, am I gonna have to live at home with my mom and dad forever? Am I ever gonna have a girlfriend? You know, all those fears and doubts and those questions. It started to kind of loosen the grip on that. And your dad wanted, your dad suggested the wrestling? Is that how that started? Yeah, he basically tricked me into coming out. So the rule was, is that if, for me or my sisters, if we sign up for any type of sport or activity, we had to finish it, like, at least finish the season. You know, we didn't have to sign up and do it again, but you had to like, sign up, you know, and, and finish that season. So I did sixth grade, didn't want to ever do it again. I was like, done. And, um, seventh grade signups came up and my dad was like, "Yeah, maybe you should try it again," you know, blah, blah, and I'm like, "No, absolutely not." And he said, "You know, I want to tell you something

• 19:33Speaker 05

  I never really talked to you about." He said, "I didn't win a single match my first year either." And I knew that he'd become a good, a really good wrestler, like, in high school and college and stuff later on. I was like, "Wow, really?" And he's like, "Yeah, nobody ever wins a match their first year in wrestling. It's actually really common." He said, "But everybody wins a match their second season because you'll find somebody who was there first season and you'll beat up on them, right?" So I was like, "Awesome, sign me up." And to make a long story short, I was interviewing my dad's dad, my grandpa for my book when I went through to, when I was writing, and, and I was asking him, I was like, "When my dad was losing all his matches his first year, like, did he want to quit too?" Because I did, I begged to quit all the time and, and they would drag me out to these tournaments. And he was like, had no idea what I was talking about because that whole story had been a complete lie.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  So, based my entire life off of that lie. Right? And so then the first kid that I beat, I see this like, you know, before the match started, I had him beat. I'm like, "This kid's like, oh, that kid's a first-year wrestler? He's pretty scrawny." I was like, you know, "He's not even warming up the right way. Like, look at him jumping around." Like, we shook hands, I was like, "We can shake." Like, took the kid down and landed on top. I was like, "Whoa, this is awesome." And I was like, more shocked than he was. Like, I was gonna keep doing it, so. So, let's, uh, let's pull up a video of one of your wins. Let's take a look.

• 21:13Tim Ferriss?

  So we also have some photos and when they have a chance, I want them to pull up a photo of like a low leg attack. I was really impressed when I saw this photo.

• 21:20Speaker 05

  Maybe we demonstrate one right here if you want, you know.

• 21:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

• 21:27Speaker 05

  I mean, I knew at some point this was gonna happen, right?

• 21:29Tim Ferriss?

  Please do not break my knee. Alright.

• 21:31Speaker 05

  No, we'll go through it slow.

• 21:32Tim Ferriss?

  Alright, so how do you wanna, how do I do this?

• 21:34Speaker 05

  So like, you know, a normal wrestling match starts, we come out, we go and shake hands, right? And a lot of times, like, guys would like push on my head and kinda like stay away, right? So my strategy was to be able to like, close the distance down and just boom.

• 21:50Tim Ferriss?

  That was good.

• 21:53Tim Ferriss?

  So, very John Smith, very John Smith.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, a little John Smith, that's me, totally.

• 21:59Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know how many more of those I wanna do.

• 22:03Speaker 05

  We're getting old, we need to like be careful, right?

• 22:05Tim Ferriss?

  But I was gonna, yeah, I was like...

• 22:06Speaker 05

  My heart rate got too high there.

• 22:09Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, two seconds. So what other, this is, this is probably gonna apply to like .001% of you, but I wanna ask, like, what other, what were your go-to moves other than that?

• 22:19Speaker 05

  So I do, um, a lot of like, kinda like duck under type positions and so, or like...

• 22:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so I'll show you guys where to duck under.

• 22:26Speaker 05

  So if you come in, a lot of guys would go and wrestle me down on their knees, right? So then if here, if he like reaches over the top, I can boom, shoot across here, come around and like take him down. Or like, so, favorite was, uh, one of my favorite takedowns to this day is like, um, like a Jap wizard, so...

• 22:48Tim Ferriss?

  We'll go in slow.

• 22:50Speaker 05

  But if he's on top of me, you can start here, right? So if he starts, so he goes...

• 22:53Tim Ferriss?

  So we're like part of your position, or...

• 22:54Speaker 05

  Yep, exactly. So he goes over top, here, then I'll just tuck and be able to roll.

• 23:01Speaker 05

  So...

• 23:07Tim Ferriss?

  Alright, I think it's time for water.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  We definitely...

• 23:12Speaker 05

  The, um, the biggest go-to, I won't... I don't think it's a good idea to demonstrate.

• 23:17Tim Ferriss?

  What was this?

• 23:17Speaker 05

  But, um, my biggest go-to technique was called the Jawbreaker. But, you know, basically we'd take someone's jawline like that and use like kind of a headlock position and just crank on the jaw until...

• 23:27Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, god.

• 23:28Speaker 05

  They just turned over on their back, boom, pin me.

• 23:33Speaker 05

  That was, uh...

• 23:34Tim Ferriss?

  The Jawbreaker. Oh, my god. I am really glad we did a little demo.

• 23:40Speaker 05

  You don't wrestle with all your guests, is that...

• 23:42Tim Ferriss?

  No, this is new. I mean, maybe I should.

• 23:45Speaker 05

  Glad I could be your first.

• 23:45Tim Ferriss?

  But I'm not gonna pick you, yeah, no. Of all the people I'm gonna pick. So you were inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. That's a big deal.

• 23:58Tim Ferriss?

  That's a big deal. I mean, my heroes are in that Hall of Fame.

• 24:03Speaker 05

  Totally, mine too.

• 24:05Tim Ferriss?

  How did, how did that feel? How did that happen?

• 24:09Speaker 05

  It was, I mean, in, in contrast to how bad I was when, you know, when it started, it was really just a cool moment to be able to kind of like reflect and look back and see, you know, how, just...

• 24:23Speaker 05

  Just how, I mean, how far we got in the coming. It was really, it was really pretty wild. There was a big argument in, um, when I was competing in wrestling and jiu-jitsu, as to whether or not I was unfairly advantaged. You know, which is an interesting juxtaposition of like, kind of like how bad I was, like I talked about when I first started, to then, you know, later, people were saying, "Yeah, he's unfairly advantaged," because I was competing against, you know, in high school, I weighed 103 pounds and, you know, many moons ago, and, you know, I'm going up against these 103-pound kids who weren't huge kids, right? And I had a bigger upper torso than, than the kids I was going up against. And, you know, some of the, probably some of the similar people that were saying that like, "Oh, man, this is like child abuse, his parents are making him doing this," are now saying like, "He's got an unfair advantage over this kid."

• 25:06Tim Ferriss?

  Wait a second, he just pinned my son.

• 25:07Speaker 05

  Yeah. Exactly.

• 25:09Tim Ferriss?

  I changed my mind.

• 25:11Speaker 05

  And it happened quick, it was really interesting. It was, um, you know, but to me, I think in a lot of ways, I think that with the wrestling and all that, in particular, it was a cultivated advantage. And I'm all about, you know, you're all about those like, you know, advantages that you cultivate, give you an edge.

• 25:28Tim Ferriss?

  What did you, what was the most valuable thing that you took from that whole experience?

• 25:32Speaker 05

  It wasn't until pretty recently, within the last two or so years of doing some like deeper self-reflection, that I realized, um, I could kind of summarize, my biggest fear was being seen as helpless. You know, and you can imagine, like, as a kid, I, of course, like, it was just like, if other kids were laughing or joking or making fun of me, I would want to, like, prove to them that I wasn't helpless. So, wrestling, mountain climbing, those are sports that, you know, I mean, have a little bit of a bent of like, I'm gonna show you that I'm not helpless, right?

• 26:09Speaker 05

  And, so, but I think that, now I'm acknowledging that, I'm so grateful for that too, but I don't have to be driven by that. It doesn't have to be the thing that's running the show. And I think that if we have these experiences and these fears that are outside of our awareness, then, then it can start to go and run the show. You know, and I've, I've met billionaires, that, you know, there's some moment in time, right, that was like running the show for them, and maybe it was from a time when they were six or seven years old.

• 26:43Tim Ferriss?

  I heard someone ask an ultra runner once, they said, "Well, what are you running from?" And, it's, uh, that switch, not everyone makes it, going from running away from something to running towards something. How did you develop that awareness? So that you could use it as a tool, maybe, when you choose, but not to have it use you? Like, how did you develop that awareness?

• 27:08Speaker 05

  I think that one of the competitive advantages that I have is that like the disability from a physical side got me to ask some bigger philosophical questions at a younger age, you know, and I know that it just that kind of started to generate some just questioning, deeper questioning of like, what is this about, you know, what is this experience about, what is this life about, what, you know, why did this happen, what is the larger context here, like all of these sort of things, and then like what did people thousands of years ago think about this, you know, and even before that, you know, I mean, like, it just, I think that we're all sort of in this inquiry in some level, but then we kind of, you know, we get stuck in our day to day and whatever, the physical disability, I think sometimes

• 27:51Speaker 05

  is like a, it's a little bit of an access and that, it kind of forces you to, you know, maybe for some kids, to kind of look at some of those things at a younger age. For me, I could summarize it in a recurring dream that I had, it wasn't until two years ago that I had an experience of like remembering this dream, and when I remembered it, like I just started crying, and I could see all of my successes and all of my failures, and it was just like, like it's like these buildings, like, you know, that had built, just come crumbling down, and the dream was, I was in the backseat of my dad's car, and he had this e-brake that he would go and pull, so it's like you'd push it with your thumb and he'd pull it up, or it was like a parking brake, right, so the parking brake on this

• 28:36Speaker 05

  hill, and all of a sudden in the dream, I'd be in the car by myself and the parking brake would come off, and I would try to do whatever I could to like grab it, and I couldn't pull it up, I couldn't stop the car, and then the car would just pick up speed, and eventually it was just like, you know, just like wake up and have this like fear of like kind of falling feeling, right, and it was like, just this intense, this intense fear, and this intense feeling of like helplessness. That was like from the time is maybe like five or six to like middle school, I had that dream a couple times a year, you know, it was pretty, it was pretty intense, and I, I think now.

• 29:21Speaker 05

  You know, if I'm in the airport, traveling, sometimes I'll pull up the gate in the plane, the gate agent, you know, is like, will have different responses. Sometimes they're totally cool and I tell them I'll jump out of my chair and I'll go and walk to the plane. Sometimes, sometimes they won't believe me and sometimes, you know, it's like, you can't do it. And I'm like, can I, you know?

• 29:44Speaker 05

  It would trigger some of that stuff where it'd be like,

• 29:48Speaker 05

  you know,

• 29:51Speaker 05

  like some of those like helpless feelings. And I'd have this thought that'd be there of like,

• 29:56Speaker 05

  man, like, you know, you don't have any idea of like the places that I've been, like you probably couldn't go, right? You probably couldn't be able to climb Okinawa or something like that, you know? And I'm like, I had that thought and I'm like, oh man, it's a stupid thought. Because I think if you have awareness of something, you know, it's like pops up into my head and I'm like, uh, well, that's just my own fear. It's my own insecurity and then it can go away. But if it's just behind the scenes, running the show, it's like, you know, I think a lot of us, I mean, human beings, we're wired that for whatever reason, we kind of make these decisions up about ourselves.

• 30:28Tim Ferriss?

  I think also, human beings, just evolutionarily speaking, we're wired for survival, not for happiness. It's not what your genes are optimized for necessarily, right? So it's a something you have to, at least something I have to work on. It's like, I can go dark really fast, for whatever reason. It's just, it's been, it's been a trend.

• 30:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:47Tim Ferriss?

  And...

• 30:48Speaker 05

  But I love that you share that, though. You know, you're real. And I want people to know, for me, I've had periods of time of feeling like a fraud in front of groups of people, you know, where I'm like, man, like I'm really struggling with X, Y, or Z. How do I have any right to go and tell anybody here anything? But then now, and I'm sure you've maybe had similar experiences, but like I've gotten to be around enough people where I can see that it's almost the people that, that don't share that, that those are the ones that I'm like, ugh. You know, I want to stay away from because it's like, they don't acknowledge that, like, because it's everybody, we all have that stuff, right? We all do.

• 31:24Tim Ferriss?

  Let's pull up a video of you doing some speaking.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  I would say my purpose in life, at least from my perspective, would be to help show other people their purpose.

• 31:38Speaker 05

  That other people and what they think is totally irrelevant. That for me, inside my heart, this is what I'm capable of doing. This is what I deserve. They're thinking about, if I were in your shoes and I were running your business, I could not do it. That is a lie. You decide.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  You decide what you're capable of and believe and deserve.

• 32:06Tim Ferriss?

  Why do you do your speaking? 200 days on the road, that's a lot of days on the road, man. Why the speaking? What drives that?

• 32:13Speaker 05

  To me, it is, like, there's, again, so many different whys that are interconnected with that. It's like a form of artistry for me. I think that, like, you know, a speech is, is something that I can bring that creativity to. And it's also, you know, but it's, I'm, I'm not that one thing. I'm not a speaker, I'm not an author, I'm not any one thing, you know? I'm not even an entrepreneur, I don't care. Like, I don't care to have any, like, not an, you know, an amputee or wrestler or whatever. I want to not know what I am, right? So I can go and, like, find and be curious and figure it out. Like, if I had to pick one defining quote for my life, Emerson said, "Do not go where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

• 32:51Tim Ferriss?

  Applaud you, man.

• 32:54Tim Ferriss?

  We're gonna go to some audience questions. If you had to pick the most inspiring religious or spiritual leader, who would it be and why?

• 33:00Speaker 05

  I would say Emerson, for sure. Like, I've read all of his works and, I mean, it's had a profound impact on me. Joseph Campbell's another one, um, you know, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm just constantly, like, I geek out on that stuff hard. The thing I'm obsessed with currently is the, uh, the Apollonishads. And so, um, you know, it's just, like, thousands of years old, a lot of these ideas, right? When it's, we, we kinda like to go and put different rappers on things and think that we've got, you know, different smart ways to figure stuff out. But it's really just like, it's, it's just... Knowledge of life and this inquiry is like so old. It cracks me up now. I love, I'm also a big fan of like Martin Seligman and positive psychology and Albert

• 33:43Speaker 05

  Bandura, you know, and the sort of the research side of things, but it like cracks me up. And I was talking to, I told you, did an interview with Mark Divine today. And Navy SEAL commander, and we were just joking that like researchers will be like, you know, new headline, smiling makes you happier. It's like, wow.

• 34:03Tim Ferriss?

  Thanks, that's where my tax dollars are.

• 34:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's like this was probably, you know, it was like 10,000 years ago, right? Somebody had, hey, smiling, you'll feel better.

• 34:13Tim Ferriss?

  Two together. So you, I read this and I was like, of course, just because we spent a little bit of time together, but it's like, known for having nice handwriting. And I was like, okay, yeah, of course, like, of course, got whatever, better handwriting than I do, which you do. So I wanted to actually pull up an example of your handwriting, as much for the content as the handwriting itself. I know there are many people who, whether they admit it or not, view disabled people as inferior. We are, quote, broken in their eyes, we're of no use, no value, and we're just running out the string on life. But I believe that we are all disabled in one way or another, including disabilities of character and personality. My disability just happens to be more visual than some.

• 35:05Tim Ferriss?

  This, this really, when I read that, I was, it's, it really impacted me because it's true. I mean, that sounds maybe a simplistic way to put it, but it's really profound, right? You have people walking around with, everybody has their own wounds, they're all battling their own demons. And I remember, I was really bent out of shape about some personal flaw or weakness. And I think it was, it was like an aunt, I think it had too much to drink. And she said, don't worry, people are like Swiss cheese. And I was like, what? And she said, no, we all have holes, like we all have those gaps. So, so this is from Twitter, at MastinMD.

• 35:49Tim Ferriss?

  What specific things do you tell yourself when the thought of quitting enters your mind?

• 35:53Speaker 05

  I think a lot of it is I try to examine just...

• 35:59Speaker 05

  Like, what is that coming from, right? Because sometimes I think that, and this is one of the things that's kind of changed and shifted, right? I used to talk about like, "Oh, never ever give up." Now I'm like, giving up is super important. And you should give up a lot of things a lot quicker. A job that you hate, a relationship that sucks, like, give it up immediately, right?

• 36:21Speaker 05

  So, but there's other instances where too, it's like, that's a gray area. And I know something that we'll probably talk about was like the mountain climbing.

• 36:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 36:29Speaker 05

  But, you know, for a little taster of that, a lot of like, a lot of my experience with mountain climbing has, you know, gotten to the point where I'm like, how far is too far?

• 36:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 05

  You know? Like, yeah, I can go and have, like, I can push myself, but like, will there be irreparable harm?

• 36:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 05

  You know, and like, you know, so of course, like, probably 95% of any climb that I've ever done, like, I'm like, wanting to quit. And, um, you know, the 5% that I'm not, it's like, I'm either hanging out with my friends or looking around at how beautiful this is, but it's like, a lot of the time, I have that thought going through my head. And the most brutal parts of either climb in Aconcagua or Kilimanjaro that I took on were the last day that I could have paid extra for like a helicopter evac.

• 37:20Speaker 05

  And I realized it was like, because I had that option and that choice to get that evac, it made things, like the suffering, way worse.

• 37:30Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, so I wanna, I wanna pull up a photo of you, I believe, it might be in your gym, could be elsewhere, but working out on rings. So it looks like you're having a pretty pleasant afternoon.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  Pretty good time, yeah.

• 37:42Tim Ferriss?

  What role has building physical strength played in overcoming mental, emotional, and social challenges for you?

• 37:49Speaker 05

  I think that easily, that the physical is the easiest and first access to, um, you know... I think just it like gaining some type of like inner awareness. I mean, it's just that like as a baseline is an awesome place to start. But I think it just doesn't doesn't stop there. I think sometimes if you have people that they aren't able to really contextualize what they're doing and see how the physical can map into everything, right? It's kind of all the same stuff. So the same lessons you're gonna go and learn there, the things that are gonna go and help you in business, the same things are gonna help you in your relationships or your passions and all that. It's just realizing that it's kind of all the same and nothing happens quick.

• 38:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 05

  So it's it does take a lot of time and frankly, you know, a lot of suffering and a lot of failure and a lot of like stuff that nobody really wants to like do. It's like more of like, I wanna take this pill and get this effect. I wanna go and have this thing, you know? I mean, I love a lot of like the biohacking stuff, but I feel like kind of like the the thing that we go and do by cheapening the process is like we skip a lot of steps along the way.

• 38:52Tim Ferriss?

  I think a lot of people forget that they're supplements for a reason.

• 38:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:55Tim Ferriss?

  It's not primary. And just to underscore something that you mentioned, or looking at it maybe a slightly different way, but I this is how I've thought about it a lot is like when I'm in dark periods, the most fruitless thing that I can do personally, I'm not saying this applies to everybody, but is to try to think my way out of it. And so people say mind over matter. I think you can also go the other direction. I think you can have matter over mind.

• 39:22Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 39:23Tim Ferriss?

  And using your kinesthetic body rather than viewing things through this lens of like, it's like Cartesian duality of mind and body. Like your brain's an organ, like that stuff is completely intertwined.

• 39:34Speaker 05

  Big time.

• 39:35Tim Ferriss?

  Using the physical as a way to develop mastery over the mental has always been my default when I'm feeling.

• 39:43Speaker 05

  It's a good place to go. I mean, it's because it's like that immediate sort of access. Yeah, I mean, go to the pain cave, man. Figure figure stuff out like real quick. But to that point, too, something just popped in my head. I had an amazing meeting a couple of weeks ago.

• 39:59Speaker 05

  Got to have a meeting with the Secretary of the Army at the Pentagon and talk to him about some of these veteran issues and why is it that 22 veterans a day are committing suicide? You know, and it's staggering. I wanna know like, what are they doing about that? But the one of the.

• 40:16Speaker 05

  One of the things that he said really stood out, I think is helpful in this sense. He said, whenever he gets to that place of being really stuck, he knows that one of two things are happening, probably both, that one, he's trying to do it all by himself. And the other is, he's just not asking for help.

• 40:30Tim Ferriss?

  What advice would you give to someone who has the tendency, and I do quite frankly, to isolate myself? It's like the worst instinct. So I'm like, let me just sit down and figure this out on my own. And I, it's just like, psh, psh. How many times do I have to do this before I learn my lesson? But what advice would you give to someone who has a tendency to do that?

• 40:52Speaker 05

  That's me. I totally would agree in the same way, but it's really like, lately, I've been like, nah, screw that, you know? It's like, I want, like, if, I mean, really, what's running the show there, I think is a big part of it. Is it my own ego? Is it my own sense of like, I can't go and have support or help from other people? Like, you know, I need to go and do it on my own, or no one's gonna go and do it who's good to me, or whatever those kind of stories are. It's like, just, it's all BS. And like, it just, if it's made up in my head, then it's just like, I can go and unmake it up, right? I can go and surround myself with amazing people that are like, way smarter than I am, you know? Some of my best friends and business partners have the exact opposite strengths that I have. As soon as we partnered together, then it was like, things just shot up through the roof, right?

• 41:37Speaker 05

  And you put the right people in the right places. Like, that's the whole like, special forces mentality. Like, that one person inside of like, an environment can go and change the whole landscape. And I think it's so true in business, the whole idea of kind of being like the solopreneur and grinding it on your own and like, the late nights. It's like, yeah, that can be a good place to go and get started when you don't have, you don't have a team and access to people. But even then, it's kind of an excuse, because you have a community of people that you could tap into, and your friends and family and other people like that, that are gonna be willing to champion your cause.

• 42:07Tim Ferriss?

  The one thing that's helped me quite a bit, you guys can check this out, the musician Amanda Palmer, has a TED Talk on asking for help. And I remember watching it, and then I read her book.

• 42:21Tim Ferriss?

  And I was like, "Yeah, dummy." If you're suffering, call one of your friends who's already figured it out and ask him for help." It was just like such a, kind of in retrospect, hilarious epiphany for me. And it's always been really hard for me to do that.

• 42:38Speaker 05

  But in those deeper moments of suffering, I think it's the moment that's like the least thing, the last thing you want to do.

• 42:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So you mentioned Emerson. What books have you gifted the most to other people? If any, or if you were to gift books to other people?

• 42:54Speaker 05

  I think it is an article that I know that you've recommended a bunch that I have gifted to all my entrepreneur friends is 1,000 True Fans.

• 43:02Tim Ferriss?

  1,000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly?

• 43:03Speaker 05

  Yep. And that's made a huge difference for me because I'm like, you know, frankly, it's like, you know, is my own ego like that tells me like, "Oh, I need to have an audience the size of Tony Robbins or Tim Ferriss," right? It's like, no, necessarily. Like, I need to really be able to communicate and tap into like, who is my tribe? And I, you know, in the process right now of like, literally, I'm finally like, balls out, I'm creating it. And like, you know, the rapper that I want to go and use for that brand is the Mountain Movement. But the whole idea is I want people to go and like, get over this idea of, you know, of knowing that they have all the right answers and that their beliefs are the right way. It's like, and any belief, right?

• 43:47Speaker 05

  I challenge any belief in that. I'm not talking about one thing. It's like, a mountain, it does not care how, like, what race you are, what gender you are, whether you're in a wheelchair or not, it doesn't give a shit, right? Mountains, like, zero F's given. I mean, like, 100%, right? Like, and it's kind of, and it's in that, it's beautiful and it's indifference, I think. And at the same time, it's like, I think, I want to go and empower people to go in their own metaphorical mountains. Like, how do they go and climb those things? Or how do they go and build that team to ultimately, like, leave the world better than they found it? Like, it's, because it's, right now, it's insane, you know? I mean, like, just the polarity and all that stuff that we're experiencing and seeing, it's...

• 44:30Speaker 05

  I don't know, and I mean, I'm guilty of it too, right? We all have our assumptions and beliefs and judgments and it's just like, it's impossible to see somebody else's perspective with that. And when people, when you look at me, or if someone looks at me for the first time, if you haven't seen the videos and stuff like that, it doesn't automatically occur to someone like, "Oh, that guy's clearly an MMA fighter or a mountain climber." It'd be true. There's a, like a quip that has been profoundly impactful in my life. It was called "The map is not the territory." And basically, we all walk around as these mental cartographers, as if like, you know, the maps that we go and create are our reality, are the territory, and they're not, they're just maps. And any map that you go and create can get outdated, it can get, you know? You need to go and like, do that software update, right?

• 45:13Tim Ferriss?

  For sure.

• 45:14Speaker 05

  And update your map.

• 45:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and it's, um, strikes me, you know, what I've really tried hard to do in the last couple of years myself, in, in part to, you know, correct this faulty software, or like buggy software that needs updating. It's really simple, I mean, I, I was told at one point, this is some advice I got on conflict resolution, they just said, "Say less." Two words, "Say less."

• 45:36Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 45:37Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. And it wasn't directed at me, but it certainly applied to me. And, uh, I was like, yeah, like, how many problems would be solved in this country and around the world if, if it was just like, before you can state a strong opinion, you have to ask three questions and listen to the answers.

• 45:51Speaker 05

  And actually listen. Like, actually listen.

• 45:54Tim Ferriss?

  A lot of things would resolve themselves. What is something you've changed your mind on in the last few years?

• 46:02Speaker 05

  I think, uh, I, I grew up, I mean, in a sort of, um, you know, in, you'd say, not even really something I've talked about at all publicly, but in, you know, I grew up in, um, with, you know, very sort of Baptist views and, and all that, right? And then, you know, I went for several years privately, like, as a period of like, full-blown, like atheism, you know, and it was like, it's kind of secretly harbored some, you know, sort of degree of spirituality and really it was after like a trip to Thailand and sort of became interested in like, sort of Eastern thought and things like that, that I expanded that view to a lot more things. But then also too, have come back to Christianity and seeing the beauty of like, the message that Christ taught.

• 46:45Speaker 05

  And I think that like, now, I think I would still, I mean, I identify myself as a Christian of someone that's who's a follower of Christ, but at the same time, I'm, you know, I'm not religious. But it's like, this sort of, um... You know, I think it's more broad, inclusive view of like spirituality. And I think that sometimes too, it's, you know, I think that we think that we're so smart. We've got all the answers for this stuff. And sometimes, you know, especially now, I mean, with interesting things, it's like, stuff gets spooky, you know, at certain levels. And it's like, there's some other interesting answers and implications there that like are fascinating, you know, stuff that Buddha talked about, the stuff that Lao Tzu and, you

• 47:29Speaker 05

  know, all these teachers, it's like, or Campbell. I mean, Campbell was the biggest one. Joseph Campbell talked about this like monomyth and how these different creation stories occurred with very similar structures around the world at different times. And, you know, but as human beings, we get so, again, coming back to this idea, we get so locked into our beliefs that we'll start wars over these things. And like, we will literally kill millions of people off of like, a lot of this, this stuff that we hold on to. And that's why I want to, I mean, bring this idea that like, really kind of not knowing, I think, is the better place to come from. The entirety of my life was like, not knowing, comma, you know, but we're gonna figure it out.

• 48:08Tim Ferriss?

  And, you know, I, when I think to the best doctors I know, and how they distinguish themselves, there's an expression, there are a lot of funny expressions in, in medicine that doctors have. So one is P equals M.D., pass equals M.D. So just like, any industry, just like any trade, you have people who are at the bottom of the class, people at the top of the class.

• 48:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:34Tim Ferriss?

  So the people at the top of the class, I think, generally have another expression, which is, we know that 50% of what we think we know is wrong. We just don't know which 50%.

• 48:44Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 48:45Tim Ferriss?

  So I think if more people walked around.

• 48:47Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 48:48Tim Ferriss?

  Keeping that in mind.

• 48:49Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 48:50Tim Ferriss?

  It would lead them to ask more questions as opposed to seek to antagonize, seek to prove themselves right.

• 48:57Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 48:58Tim Ferriss?

  Right off the bat, right? Uh, so I want to talk about mountain climbing. How did, let's say Kilimanjaro, how did that come into the picture?

• 49:07Speaker 05

  Total A D D.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  It's the best explanation I have for it. Like, it was like, I did a CrossFit sectional workout. The first workout was a thousand meter row and then sprint up this like 900 foot stone mountain and tore all the skin off of my arms to get up there. And I was like, but I got to the top, it's an hour and 46 minutes, it was destroyed, but got there. I was like, wow, this is beautiful. My friend, sitting there and we're talking and I told her, I was like, I want to do Kilimanjaro. She was like, you're freaking crazy, like you just tore all the skin off your arms doing 900 foot stone mountain and this Kilimanjaro is like 20 or 21 stone mountains stacked on top of each other.

• 49:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 05

  And I was like, I don't know how we're gonna do it, but, you know, want to figure it out. So it was, that was, I mean, it was just brutal beat down from, you know, the universe on every level after that to get to that point.

• 50:01Tim Ferriss?

  Now, what did you do? All right, so you had this stone mountain, was it?

• 50:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:06Tim Ferriss?

  Took all the skin off of your arms and legs, so what was the gear?

• 50:13Speaker 05

  So with that, we used leather welding sleeves. And I was like, you know, this will protect my arms until I realized the leather welding sleeve was a lot tougher than my skin and that's...

• 50:21Tim Ferriss?

  So it was the leather that ripped it up?

• 50:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, but it was like, yeah, it wasn't stone, but it was like, we tried bath towels and duct tape and like thankfully I've got, you know, these amazing friends that were sitting and just duct taping stuff on my arms and my feet for hours, you know? And like we tried, you know, like oven mitts, you know, like cooking oven mitts and like several of them stacked up and we tried foot and knee pads, all these different things. We finally got smart and took a mountain bike tire and cut that into pieces and then like wrapped it around and give some traction and created this prototype shoe. So I used that to get up the mountain and we didn't get the final gear set complete until two and a half weeks before we left for the climb. What was driving it? That's a big commitment, right? And you presumably have other stuff going on.

• 51:07Speaker 05

  That takes a lot of focus. Big time. What did you hope to get out of it? And the biggest driver there was, for me personally, and it's hard to kind of understand unless you've spent a significant portion of your time and your life in a wheelchair. Because you don't necessarily realize how many places you can't get to in the wheelchair. In America, I think that we have the greatest country in terms of, that I've experienced in terms of accessibility. Part of it is because I think we're a fairly new country, right? But it's like, in terms of the world, you know, there are many places that are off limits. And that was, you know, when my friends would go and run off into the woods, I couldn't go and follow them.

• 51:51Speaker 05

  And so, as a kid, I wanted to. And I wanted to go and have a way to go and do it unless I was like riding on a buddy's back and we wouldn't get very far doing that. But it was like, that was my access into the woods for a long time, or in the mountains. And I wanted to go to nature. I wanted to experience it. I wanted to go and see these places that I'd read about in some, you know, like poem or something, you know? I'm like, "The snow is a killer in Jara." I want to see that.

• 52:18Speaker 06

  As the ever-present threat of deadly avalanches looms, scree and dust make movement difficult for Kyle. Spikes are attached so he can navigate the icy slope. And Kyle's will to succeed is clear. Nothing will stop him.

• 52:44Speaker 06

  As day breaks, Kyle Maynard pushes ahead, a beacon of will and determination, showing the world that no matter what, there is a way to the top.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  Once he's reached the summit, Kyle Maynard's mission is complete, and he can pay tribute to the men and women who've inspired him, who choose to live life to the fullest because there are no excuses.

• 53:47Tim Ferriss?

  If you had a gigantic billboard, and you could put out a short message, a few words, whatever it might be, to a huge audience, to the world, what would you put on that billboard?

• 54:01Speaker 05

  It's, um... I think this time I'm gonna switch it up and go with a Campbell quote where he said, you know, he was asking like the purpose of life, and he said it's, you know, and I think you could have a debate with this, but you know, really, I think there's some beauty of it where he said it's to follow your bliss, and that doors will open where there were previously only walls. If I'm attached to this idea of like, oh, I have to be the speaker guy, then I don't necessarily get it. And that sometimes, like, maybe that could be the most empowering thing, to go and give up everything and go and, um, you know, and pursue a different path. And I respect people that are willing to go in to do that and completely recreate themselves.

• 54:42Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I would just want to thank you, Kyle, for honestly showing everyone that they can do more than they think they're capable of doing. It's a huge gift to the world.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  Ladies and gentlemen, Kyle Maynard.

• 54:58Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between 1.5 and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half-page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

• 55:41Tim Ferriss?

  And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So, if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday. Type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.