My Husband Is a Serial Cheater and Nobody Knows

On today’s episode, we hear about: A wife wondering if she should tell her family about her husband’s affairs A husband wanting to help his wife put her life back together A woman who said rude things about her sister-in-law and it backfired Next Steps: ❤️ Get away with your spouse today! 🔥 Reconnect every day. Download the Together app. 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: ● Head to Beam and use code DELONY for an exclusive discount—because better sleep, energy and focus start tonight. ● Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. ● Get an exclusive offer with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. ● Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. ● Go to Dutch Pet and use code DELONY to get $50 off a year of vet care. Go love your pets! ● Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. ● Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! ● Working knives for working people—go to Montana Knife Company to see what’s available now! ● Explore Poncho Outdoors! ● Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  How do I stop covering up my husband's transgressions? I've caught him sending inappropriate messages to other women. They strongly disapproved of my first marriage and it really took a toll on my family's relationship and I finally like built that back up, but now...

• 0:29Dr. John Delony?

  Hey, this is John. I'm glad you're with us.

• 0:35Dr. John Delony?

  The associate producer Alex back there just told me I am tall and hot.

• 0:42Dr. John Delony?

  And Alex, I accept. You're welcome to tell me that anytime. Kelly has never told me those things, but I can tell by the way you angrily stare at me, you think that's true. Not so much.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  Whatever makes the work happen, go with it.

• 1:02Dr. John Delony?

  That's what you said when you bought me drugs about a year into this.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  If it worked, I'd still be doing it.

• 1:09Dr. John Delony?

  Let's go to St. Louis, Missouri and talk to Sarah. What's up, Sarah?

• 1:14Speaker 00

  Hi, John. I'm so glad you took my call. I'm really excited to talk to you.

• 1:18Dr. John Delony?

  Well, thank you for calling. What's going on?

• 1:21Speaker 00

  Um, so my question is, how do I stop covering up or hiding my husband's transgressions from my family?

• 1:30Dr. John Delony?

  That's a loaded question. Tell me more about it.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, so just a little backstory. Um, my husband and I have been together for five years and married for one. And in the five years that we've been together, I've caught him sexting or sending inappropriate messages to other women about three times. And each time that that happens, I feel the need to hide it from my family because they honestly think the world of him and this is the first relationship that I've ever had that they approve of. Um, they strongly disapproved of my first marriage because of problems that my ex-husband had and it really took a toll on my family's relationship with me. And I finally like built that back up, but now...

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:21Dr. John Delony?

  It's not real.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:24Dr. John Delony?

  Why, why, why do you care less about your own safety and integrity and more about the fake analysis of people who don't live in your home?

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Um, I don't know. I really don't. It's just always kind of been that way. I don't know how to put myself first, I guess.

• 2:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, well, and yeah, I mean, because the next question I would ask is why, why, why did you marry a guy? You knew this before you married him?

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, it had happened one time before, before we got married or engaged, yeah.

• 2:56Dr. John Delony?

  That you know about?

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Yes, true, very true.

• 3:00Dr. John Delony?

  It would be strange if it happened once over four years and then suddenly twice, now that you're married.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:05Dr. John Delony?

  I wonder if you're closer to him and y'all are more intertwined in your lives and you're seeing it more.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Possibly that could be. And I, you know, since it happened the first time, I'm definitely on high alert for it. So I, I go looking for it more, which probably isn't healthy either. Um, but I mean, the thing is, and this is gonna sound so contradictory, but he is a really great guy in all the aspects that make building a life together sound good. Like he's

• 3:42Dr. John Delony?

  Trust and integrity?

• 3:44Speaker 00

  He provides, he's, yeah, no. Yeah.

• 3:49Dr. John Delony?

  I'll take somebody who makes less money, but tells me the truth and is a ride or die, seven days out of seven.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:58Dr. John Delony?

  I'll take somebody who is, doesn't look like Brad Pitt, but who is loyal and will ride or die. I'll take somebody that I can get old and wrinkly with over somebody I always have to wonder if, yes, their direct deposit's hitting and they're helping with the dishes, but they're also sending pics out to people and requesting topless photos of strangers all day, every day. I would make that trade.

• 4:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:33Dr. John Delony?

  What, what is it?

• 4:39Dr. John Delony?

  I'm probably gonna be able to answer my own question with this constant need for your parents to approve of you trying to take care of yourself and keep you safe. But man, you have a pretty small picture of yourself.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:58Dr. John Delony?

  I've talked to you for like two minutes and I think I already have, I feel more a sense of your value than you do.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's probably true.

• 5:14Dr. John Delony?

  Did you grow up in that world?

• 5:15Speaker 00

  Um, yeah.

• 5:16Dr. John Delony?

  Where there was just a steady sword of Damocles hanging over your head at all times for mom and dad, where they're gonna prove of the next action you took and the next thought you had and the next dress you wore?

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Um, I think it was more being left out of their world, so trying to stay in it.

• 5:37Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I can see that.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. My mom had me when she was really young and my dad, I don't know my biological dad, but my dad, my stepdad that stepped in, he was also young and they did the best they could, but it was really rocky for a really long time. And so now that I feel like I have a good relationship built with them, I'm really scared to lose it.

• 6:08Dr. John Delony?

  So here's how you're gonna know. You sit down with your mom. Like, those things are true and they happen and that's wired into your nervous system and you have to do the next thing.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:22Dr. John Delony?

  And by the way, I'm not suggesting that anybody who catches their spouse cheating automatically has to call their family.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Right, yeah. And that's something else I was wondering, like, do I even

• 6:32Dr. John Delony?

  I wouldn't.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  need to tell them?

• 6:33Dr. John Delony?

  I wouldn't.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  But I just feel so alone in this, like, I just...

• 6:37Dr. John Delony?

  Well, that's the question. Who else can you talk to? Who else do you have girlfriends? Do you have a counselor? Do you have a spiritual advisor? Do you have somebody that you can sit down with and say, "I'm experiencing some really awful stuff in my house"?

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:51Dr. John Delony?

  Do you have that?

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Um, I, so, the one girlfriend that I thought I did have, um, I started telling her about it and she is actually having an affair on her husband, um, so that kind of shut that down.

• 7:10Dr. John Delony?

  And You think? Good God.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was hard. Um, and then my other girlfriend, she's just in a season of life with little babies and she just doesn't, she's just not in a season where she can give emotionally right now. And I understand that. Um, I have been thinking quite frequently about trying to find a therapist.

• 7:35Dr. John Delony?

  Today?

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:38Dr. John Delony?

  Today. And in, in a large metropolitan city where you live, it's not trying to find. You just get on the phone and call some people.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:47Dr. John Delony?

  And go to two or three sessions. And if you have a connection there, even if it's uncomfortable, it will be uncomfortable for you, especially somebody who is always asking yourself, "Do you like me? Am I worth even being in this room with you?" It'll be uncomfortable for you.

• 8:04Dr. John Delony?

  But keep going. And if it just feels like there's no connection here, I don't want to be in this room. I feel unsafe for this person. Cool, go find another one. But that's, that's the work to do is you have to find some folks. If that is your family, then great. But if your family's going to weaponize your safety

• 8:22Dr. John Delony?

  and they're going to choose this other dude over you, then they don't want to be in a relationship with you.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:29Dr. John Delony?

  And that's heartbreaking.

• 8:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I doubt that's what would happen. It's just such a reflex now

• 8:37Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  that I don't even give them the chance, I think.

• 8:41Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 8:44Dr. John Delony?

  If you go to them and you tell them all of this, and you say, "Hey, I have some hard things to tell you, but I'm afraid I'm gonna lose our relationship. Can I trust y'all with some really hard stuff? Because I got nowhere else to go."

• 9:02Dr. John Delony?

  If they said, "Oh, my God, come inside, sit down, yes." And you said, "I found these things

• 9:10Dr. John Delony?

  on my husband's phone, and I'm wrestling with him. I don't know the next right move. It's the third time in five years this has happened. I didn't want to disappoint y'all. I don't want to disappoint myself anymore." There's some aspects of this relationship where he shows up, and pretty great, and this part is a nightmare. There's this tension in my life.

• 9:32Dr. John Delony?

  The challenge, if you do that, is if y'all choose to reconcile, and this guy just does a 180, and is like, "I'll never do this again." They can't get that out of their head, right?

• 9:42Speaker 00

  Right, right, exactly.

• 9:43Dr. John Delony?

  It's there forever. And if they're good parents, they're gonna side with you, right?

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:49Dr. John Delony?

  And if they're good parents, then when you say, "Hey, I've forgiven him, we're making this thing work, we're making a go of this thing, we've got some plans in place, I need you to be on our side now," then, great, maybe they could do that. It doesn't sound like they've done that in the past for you.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  No.

• 10:07Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 10:10Dr. John Delony?

  So everything you're telling me is that they're not a safe option for you, or a wise option for you.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:15Dr. John Delony?

  Which is probably more scary, because you've got nowhere else to turn.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  That's exactly it.

• 10:28Dr. John Delony?

  Then, if not for you, for me, for the people listening to the show, hear me say, "You're worth making a phone call to somebody, even if you have to pay them by the hour to sit down and talk with them and say, 'I'm not okay. I don't know what to do next.'"

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 10:57Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm curious, um, what makes this guy, absent the fact that he's cheating on you, what makes him so great in other areas? I'm, I'm interested in this part of the story.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Um, well,

• 11:13Speaker 00

  when we got together after my first marriage, it was a couple of years and we met and I really didn't think that I would ever be with anybody again. Like, I was very content to be by myself and he was the first person that really took an interest for who I actually was and not how I made them feel. And we have built a life together. We, we travel, we have fun. Like, I, I have the best times with him when I can put those things out of my head. And we built a business together.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  I, I wanted, I had a dream of this business and he basically put his blood, sweat and tears in it to make sure that it came true. And so it's just, it's really hard to reconcile, like, why he would do these things and it just, it automatically makes me think that I'm not enough.

• 12:16Dr. John Delony?

  Of course, because through his actions, he's telling you, you're not enough.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I, I mean, I listen to your show a lot and I've, I've told him, you know, just recently, you know, behavior is a pattern and I can't accept patterns. I can accept a mistake that we, that you make and we move on from it and it never happens again, but now this is clearly a pattern and is this how it's going to be for the rest of our lives?

• 12:47Dr. John Delony?

  What was his answer?

• 12:50Speaker 00

  He's, he always says it's not going to happen again.

• 12:53Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I know, but that's not true.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  His, his answer to this is white knuckling and putting his head into work and not thinking about it.

• 13:12Dr. John Delony?

  Which means there's 100% failure rate in that sort of approach.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:18Dr. John Delony?

  Until he decides to dig into why he is so uncomfortable in his own skin. Yeah, let me put it this way, you can't solve what's going on inside his chest for him.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:34Dr. John Delony?

  But it does call up the same old demons of you being a four-year-old little girl wondering, where's dad?

• 13:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:43Dr. John Delony?

  What is it about me that my young mom and my young dad don't want to be around me?

• 13:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:52Dr. John Delony?

  The same alarm bells are going off as we have success in travel, success in business, we have a fun sex life, we have fun together, yet what is it about me that I'm not enough?

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:06Dr. John Delony?

  And I need you to hear me say, your bio dad left because something was going on with him, not you. And your mom and dad, your stepdad and your mom had demons when they were kids and it wasn't about you. And this guy's struggling with stuff inside his own chest, it's, I hate to say it, it's not about you. What is about you is your safety and well-being. And I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't work with people that I don't trust.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 14:38Dr. John Delony?

  And if people will cheat on their spouse, my god, they'll cheat on me.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:43Dr. John Delony?

  They, it's just they will.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  It's all, yeah. It's all stuff that I needed to hear. I know it in myself, but also it's really hard to just put it down and not look at it for a little bit.

• 15:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. It burns when you grab it.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:21Dr. John Delony?

  I hate that.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Me too.

• 15:30Dr. John Delony?

  So hear me say, you're worth somebody that's gonna tell you the truth. And you're worth somebody, not that's not gonna find other people attractive, but isn't gonna sexually engage with other people.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 15:43Dr. John Delony?

  And you're worth somebody that you build a dream and a business with that you know I can count on that person. You're worth having friends. Just if you get nothing out of this phone call, just hear me say you're worth so much.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 16:14Dr. John Delony?

  And untangling this is gonna be hard. And you might disappoint your parents. And if you do, good riddance, man. And if you've listened to the show for more than one episode, you know that I can't stand when people cut off everybody in their life for no reason.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:28Dr. John Delony?

  But this isn't a matter of cutting off. They cut you off a long time ago if they're gonna walk away from you in your time of need like this.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

• 16:45Dr. John Delony?

  Will you commit to me, will you call somebody today?

• 16:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:49Dr. John Delony?

  And set up an appointment.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  After I get off this call.

• 16:51Dr. John Delony?

  Thank you.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 16:57Dr. John Delony?

  Tonight, when you're by yourself, I want you to get out a piece of paper or a small journal, and I want you to start writing the phrase, "I am worth."

• 17:07Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to free-write

• 17:11Dr. John Delony?

  all the things that are true.

• 17:18Dr. John Delony?

  I'm worth somebody that I trust.

• 17:22Dr. John Delony?

  I'm worth parents who will be with me by my side when somebody else hurts me. I'm worth a business partner that I can count on all the time to be honest.

• 17:35Dr. John Delony?

  I'm worth a spouse that sees another sexy person on the internet and doesn't feel the need to solicit nude photos from them.

• 17:48Dr. John Delony?

  I'm worth laughter in my own house. I'm worth going on vacation and not having to consciously shove things out of my head just so I can get through the day.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:01Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to take that "worth" list into your counselor and say, "I know I'm worth more than the life I've created, and I don't know how to get here." And let your counselor walk with you. And it won't be forever.

• 18:14Dr. John Delony?

  But tell him that you want to develop a path.

• 18:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:20Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  That sounds really nice.

• 18:22Dr. John Delony?

  I know.

• 18:24Dr. John Delony?

  It's a matter of choose your hard. You can keep doing the same thing you're doing, and it's hard to always wonder who he's texting.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:32Dr. John Delony?

  Why he's 30 minutes late, why he's an hour late, why he's two hours late. Where's that other $600? Oh, okay. That's hard, right?

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:44Dr. John Delony?

  And changing this will be hard.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:52Dr. John Delony?

  Both paths are hard. Choose the one that's going to give you the most worth.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  I think I'm ready.

• 19:00Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. I'm proud of you, sister. Thank you for the call. Call me back anytime, anytime I can help, call me. Even if I can't help, I'll just sit here. I'll sit here with you.

• 19:13Dr. John Delony?

  Thank you so much. When we come back, a man asks how he can talk to his wife about her re-engaging with her life.

• 19:23Dr. John Delony?

  All right, you all know that I use Hallow, and right now you can try the app for free for three months. That's 90 days of the number one Christian prayer and meditation app in the world at no cost. And this offer is only for my audience. Go to hallow.com/daloni and check it out. And listen, here's why I use it. My life's busy, family and work and everything else that the world throws at me. And if I'm not anchored spiritually, I'm untethered everywhere else. Hallow helps me start my day grounded before the chaos comes. And this year Lent starts early. Lent is a season of reflection and fasting for Christians. But honestly, anyone can benefit from hitting pause and resetting with purpose. Hallow walks with you through that process with daily reflections and guided prayers

• 20:08Dr. John Delony?

  that bring clarity and peace. Hallow helps you breathe again. It just creates space to be present. So if you're ready to quiet the noise and reconnect with what matters, check out Hallow. And remember, when you sign up at hallow.com/daloni, you get three months absolutely free. That's hallow.com/daloni for three months for free.

• 20:31Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let's go out to Dallas, Texas and talk to James. What up, James? Hey, how are you, Dr. John? I'm good, man. What's going on?

• 20:39Speaker 04

  Good. Well, hey, first off, I just wanted to say, thanks for, uh, thanks for everything you do on your show, man. I think it's fantastic. I've learned a lot from it and I hope everybody feels the same way.

• 20:48Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I appreciate it. There's some people in a Reddit thread that do not think that way, but I appreciate you calling it.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  There's always gonna be haters, right?

• 20:55Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  So, you know, I think this is something that, um, a lot of spouses kind of struggle with. And bottom line, like, I kind of just feel like my wife has just let herself go, just emotionally, mentally, physically. And, you know, I want to do everything I possibly can to help her get back on track, but I just don't have the answers. I don't know where to start. And, you know, if I try to talk to her, you know, I get this sense that, um, I mean, she'll just tell me flat out, like, gosh, stop being on my case 24/7. You're always on my case. And I just need some good tactics because as a guy, you know, I know we're not all built this way, but, you know, a lot of times when friends watch, hey, how are things going? Like, oh, it's good. Everything's great.

• 21:38Speaker 04

  Um, we just don't open up a lot. So, you know, I don't know who to talk to. Um, and I just need some, some pointers on things that I could do to just help her get back in the game.

• 21:51Dr. John Delony?

  Well, man, I appreciate your call, dude. It took a lot of courage to call. Appreciate that. And I'm not going to join the chorus of people who will say, who do you think you are? And all guys are interested in blah, blah. Cause I hear this, this is seems to be, and tell me if I'm wrong. This is deeper than she's gained weight. This is deeper than we're not having sex anymore. This is deeper than that stuff. It's, I've, I'm watching the woman I love. I'm watching the, the, the light inside of her go out.

• 22:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, a hundred percent. And I mean, you know, there's, you know, there's depression there. Um, she's lost her identity. Yeah. I mean, those things, of course, but.

• 22:27Dr. John Delony?

  Well, those are big things. Tell me, tell me about it. It's like, you know, there's those few things like depression and lost identity. Well, so i- i- is, do y'all have kids? Well, how has she lost her identity?

• 22:37Speaker 04

  We do have kids.

• 22:38Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 22:38Speaker 04

  Um, and you know, a lot of the conversations I have with her sometimes revolve around, uh, you know, I want, I want us as a team to try to put the best examples forward for our kids. And, you know, it's challenging if sometimes I feel I'm doing a lot of the heavy lifting or.

• 22:58Dr. John Delony?

  Give me some examples.

• 22:59Speaker 04

  Okay, so, so we, we live kind of in a traditional household. I mean, she's a, you know, ever since we met and started dating and got married, I mean, you know, we've been married for 20 years now, so I love her to death. Um, there's been this sense that, okay, hey, all I want, I would love to be a stay at home mom. I want to take care of the kids. I want to make dinner and all that stuff. And a lot of that stuff is falling off the, you know, falling off the wayside. So I'm the one going shopping. I'm the one, you know, just everyday things. And I, I don't mind doing any of it. That's, that's not, that's not why, you know, what I'm talking about. I'm, of course I'm here to help, but I just want her to, you know, I'd like to see

• 23:39Speaker 04

  her just get up in the morning, have a plan, go somewhere, get ready, even if it's just being social with people. I think that's a big aspect of her life that's kind of missing.

• 23:52Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me about the depression. Has she been diagnosed with depression or she's just been struggling?

• 23:56Speaker 04

  She's taking some medication for it. I don't know exactly what she's taking.

• 24:00Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 24:01Speaker 04

  Um, she's, you know, she, she speaks to somebody on a monthly basis, but it's more for just like, hey, how's the medication going? And, you know, of course she's going to say, oh, it's working great. But I don't think she's got anybody that she talks to per se. And I've even said like, hey, look, like, why don't you go talk to somebody? Cause my, you know, the way I'm built, and I don't know if, you know, I know this is not all guys, of course, but we tend to be fixers. And hey, you've got a problem, I can fix a problem. Here's how you're going to fix it. Okay. See you tomorrow. That kind of thing. And I know it's not that easy.

• 24:34Dr. John Delony?

  Well, it, it, the, the challenge is when a fixer.

• 24:39Dr. John Delony?

  When somebody is, who is struggling is married to a fixer. Right. Is it comes across as a minute by minute, day by day confirmation that the things you feel about yourself are indeed true? Okay. You are a failure. You're not enough. Or to use the fixing language, you are broken.

• 24:58Dr. John Delony?

  And here's what you need to do. Sure. And that, you're right, that's, there's a traditionally male approach to, "Oh, I'm just gonna go hit that guy and then after that we'll be fine and then we'll buy each other beer and we'll move on with our day." Right? Or, "Well, let's just, let's just not go to see our family anymore. That's easy." Or, "Let's just never go to that church again because they're terrible. Let's go to this one." And there is a, a fix-it mentality. Um, and there is some health, healthy aspects to that, but there's also some not healthy aspects to that. And, um, if a fixer is constantly coming up with, "Well, you know what you need to be doing about this and doing about this and doing about this." Somebody who is struggling with depression, someone who is trying to figure out after 20 years, "Who am I?

• 25:45Dr. John Delony?

  What is my role here? What's my purpose here?"

• 25:51Dr. John Delony?

  It just confirms everything that, that's self-narrative. Right. So, there, there's a couple of things here that I would challenge you on, okay?

• 26:02Dr. John Delony?

  I, I, I think I've talked about this on the show in the past. I don't remember or not, but it was, I think it was a couple of years ago.

• 26:12Dr. John Delony?

  I had this revelation, maybe it was last year or the year before that. I had this thing that just popped into my head. I take a retreat with my wife every year and before that I spent some time by myself every year. Just like, "What kind of guy were you this year? How did your business go? What kind of dad were you? Kind of husband were you? Are you becoming the guy that you want to become? Through actions, right? Are you taking the right actions to keep your promises to yourself?" So I have that reflection time every year. And for some reason, this particular year it popped into my head.

• 26:43Dr. John Delony?

  How much money have you spent on like getting trained in mental health stuff? And the number I came up with was a couple of hundred thousand bucks when you figure in the PhD, when you figure in all the trainings, all the books, all the travel, all the conferences, all the, you know, the medical conferences and the mental health, all that stuff. It was a lot of money I'd invested in time. And I was thinking, man, good, man, you're investing, you're like, you're going all in on this deal. Right. And then a voice that I've never heard before asked, what are the two most important things in your life? And I gave myself my stock answer, which is my wife, my family and my faith. Right. That's important to me.

• 27:26Dr. John Delony?

  And the next question was, how much have you spent?

• 27:29Dr. John Delony?

  Time and money on getting to know those things?

• 27:35Dr. John Delony?

  And if I'm honest, the answer was zero.

• 27:38Dr. John Delony?

  Zero.

• 27:41Dr. John Delony?

  I go to church and I, I mean, I tithes and so maybe that could be a cost, but not really. And so I did two things from, from that conversation with myself. Like, oh man, if I'm going to say that follow somebody's calendar and follow their, their money, and you're going to find out who they are, then I need to put my money where my mouth is. So I hired a theology professor from a university here in town and said, we're going to meet for coffee once a week and I want to do faith 101. I want to know what I actually believe because I can deconstruct anybody's anything and I can have conversations with everybody. I need to know what I actually believe. I have a young kid, two young kids who are staring across the table at me saying, Daddy, who are we going to be?

• 28:22Dr. John Delony?

  And the second thing was, I need to get to know my wife again.

• 28:28Dr. John Delony?

  And here's what I asked her. She's an old college professor. I'm an old college professor. So I said, Hey, will you make me a syllabus of you? And she's like, what are you talking about? And I said, I don't know the podcast you listen to. I don't know the books you read. I don't know the shows that you watch when I'm gone. I don't know what you're wrestling with. I, I just want to get to know you again.

• 28:49Dr. John Delony?

  One month went by, two months went by, and then I remember being like, Hey, I never got that syllabus from you. And she's like, Yeah, I was hoping you'd forget. And I was like, why? And can I tell you what she said? She said, I'm afraid that you're going to see all this stuff and you're not going to like me anymore.

• 29:06Dr. John Delony?

  And it was one of those like time stops in my house.

• 29:11Dr. John Delony?

  And so.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:13Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm saying?

• 29:14Speaker 04

  I think she's afraid of that. Yeah, I think she's, you know, I think she's afraid of that. I don't think she, she didn't have positive relationships growing up. Um, mom and dad was a little tumultuous. Um, you know, even relationships that she had, you know, during high school and.

• 29:31Dr. John Delony?

  I, I know, I know, but listen, let's, let's bring it to the present.

• 29:33Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 29:33Dr. John Delony?

  You know how I know she's gonna think that? Because she already thinks you don't like her, because she already thinks that you think she's not enough.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 29:41Dr. John Delony?

  And so the approach here is not, hey, you know what you could do? You could get on this diet. You can start this workout program. You can go do this. You can go to this. You can join a gym. You can go to the Y. You can go get a job, whatever. That is a series of things that for somebody who's struggling with depression, somebody who's struggling to get out of bed in the morning hears as, if you want me to like you, go do these 10 things.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 30:05Dr. John Delony?

  And if you're a people pleaser and a performer, people will hop out of bed and go sing and dance. Or if they're not a people pleaser, if there's somebody who learned really young, I just need to get small and disappear in my own house. That's the safest move for me.

• 30:19Dr. John Delony?

  Man, getting out of bed's real, real heavy.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, cuz that's been an issue, you know, it's just, uh, it, it, she, there's a, I'm sure a lot of people do this that, that are in similar situations. I mean, they're, they're, you know, outside. How people view them outside the home is different than how they view them, you know, like that person views themselves when they're, when, you know, where they're within the four walls.

• 30:41Dr. John Delony?

  Of course.

• 30:41Speaker 04

  So, you know, obviously, everything seems hunky dory on the outside, but, you know, you know, on the inside, there's this internal battle and, and, you know, I know that you're big on, hey, write yourself a letter kind of thing, right? So, in an, in an airport, a couple of weeks back, I wrote her a letter and I'm like, I, I don't know if you called it like word vomit, or I can't remember what it is, but you're like, just write. So I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna write her a letter. So I wrote her a letter and it was, you know, it was, it was probably about five or six pages. And I'm like, hey, just letting you know that you're enough and you're loved and it's okay. And we're in this together and we're gonna do this and

• 31:20Speaker 04

  let me tell you some stuff that, that's, you know, I want to be upfront with you with what I'm feeling and I'd like you to write me back on what you're feeling and to, you know, this was six weeks ago and she, you know, that next morning I got a little, um, You know, a little note that was like folded up piece of paper like you get in middle school when you're passing notes and says, oh, thank you so much for your letter. And, you know, hey, I'm going to write to you one, two. And I'm like, that's awesome. That's great. Okay, maybe we're opening up here. And, you know, I asked her, hey, I'm still waiting on my letter. And she goes, oh, my gosh, I like, I totally forgot about that. So I'm like, man, I put a lot of work into that.

• 31:57Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, okay. So if you go right to scorekeeping.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:04Dr. John Delony?

  Then it's it's less about how do I connect with you.

• 32:07Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 32:08Dr. John Delony?

  And it's more about, look what I did.

• 32:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay.

• 32:11Dr. John Delony?

  Scorekeeping is about fear.

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Gotcha.

• 32:14Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 32:16Dr. John Delony?

  It's about I now I'm doing the dishes. Now I'm going to the grocery store. Now I'm doing these things. And what are you doing? And that's never a recipe for intimacy and reconnection.

• 32:24Speaker 04

  Gotcha. Okay.

• 32:25Dr. John Delony?

  Intimacy and reconnection comes from, hey, I see you're in the dark. I got a candle here. I'm coming to you.

• 32:31Dr. John Delony?

  Because if she was trapped in the neighbor's house, you'd kick the door in to go get her.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 32:36Dr. John Delony?

  And right now she's trapped inside her own self.

• 32:41Speaker 04

  For sure.

• 32:41Dr. John Delony?

  So go get her. And what do I mean by that?

• 32:47Dr. John Delony?

  Find the book on her nightstand and go buy the exact copy and start reading it in bed next to her.

• 32:53Dr. John Delony?

  If there's a show she's watching, then you start watching it with her.

• 32:58Dr. John Delony?

  If there is a, hey, it would mean a huge deal to me, a way you could show me you love me today, is will you go for a walk with me?

• 33:08Dr. John Delony?

  I want to walk by myself. I like walking with you.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:11Dr. John Delony?

  It's you getting up in the morning and saying, how can I love you today? I don't know. I don't know. All right. Well, I'm gonna go make your cup of coffee and bring it to you.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 33:22Dr. John Delony?

  And it's the small, daily bids, as the Gottmans call it, for, I love you, I love you, I love you through action, through action. Now, I love you, I love you. And now here's what you need to go do.

• 33:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay, that makes sense.

• 33:37Dr. John Delony?

  Because that's to somebody who's suffering with some someone who's struggling with depression, that's all they're gonna hear in a big neon sign is blah, blah, blah, you're not enough.

• 33:47Speaker 04

  Do you think it would be healthy for her to go speak to somebody that's, you know, like that can just listen to her?

• 33:54Dr. John Delony?

  One million percent, yes. Just, just doing a monthly med management check-in is clearly not, you're, you're watching your wife dissolve in front of you. Clearly that's not working and it's a problem with our current psychiatric system. I get it. And you going and saying, you know what else you need to do? Go see a counselor? That's going to bury her too.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 34:15Dr. John Delony?

  You going and saying, you know what? I've decided I'm going to go see a counselor because I want to be the best husband I can be for you. And I feel like I'm struggling to connect. What? Yeah, dude, I love you so much. I'm sick for how much I love you and I want to be the best husband as I can be.

• 34:31Speaker 04

  Right.

• 34:32Dr. John Delony?

  And you're going to go and then you're going to go. And you know what? That might bury her further, but it might turn on a light in the room, a little one.

• 34:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:41Dr. John Delony?

  Cause then after the fourth or fifth, you could say, hey, would you come with me?

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Right, right, right.

• 34:47Dr. John Delony?

  To my session?

• 34:48Speaker 04

  That was my next question, like, should we go together or something like that? You know, which I'm, I'm not opposed to.

• 34:52Dr. John Delony?

  I would invite her to yours.

• 34:54Speaker 04

  Gotcha, okay.

• 34:55Dr. John Delony?

  And then possibly in that session, she could hear in front of a third party, how much you love her?

• 35:03Speaker 04

  That's a good point.

• 35:06Dr. John Delony?

  And the question here is not, or the, the answer here is not, here's what you need to do, here's what you need to do, here's what you need to do. The answer is, I miss my wife.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, totally. That makes sense. That's a good, that's good, that's a good thought.

• 35:28Dr. John Delony?

  But if she had the flu, you'd bring her soup until she got better, right?

• 35:32Speaker 04

  Right.

• 35:33Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so if she's struggling from depression, we're going to keep reaching and we're going to keep reaching. We're going to keep reaching because we made a covenant, dude. We said in sickness and health till death. There was parts we're going to keep going, we're going to keep going.

• 35:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I mean, it's, you know, she's, it's been cyclical. A couple of years back, she was in great shape. You know, she actually.

• 35:52Dr. John Delony?

  I know, but listen, listen, you gotta stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Stop talking about her physical shape. That's not the problem.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 36:02Dr. John Delony?

  Okay? Stop talking about the things she used to do. You have a person who's sick right in front of you.

• 36:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:11Dr. John Delony?

  And if you like, if you keep going back and dragging the past into right now, saying, "Look what it used to be," that's just a weight she can't carry right now. You can't carry that weight right now. Right. It's a decision to resent the moment you're in.

• 36:27Dr. John Delony?

  How old are your kids right now? Twelve and seventeen. Okay. So, one, she's got a kid about to go. Right. She has another kid about to explode.

• 36:40Dr. John Delony?

  Already.

• 36:43Dr. John Delony?

  And so y'all have a brand-new marriage.

• 36:46Dr. John Delony?

  And there's something about saying not, "I want you to be like you used to be."

• 36:51Dr. John Delony?

  I want it to be, i- i- it's about saying, "Okay, we have a new marriage. I want to love you the best way that I can right now."

• 36:59Dr. John Delony?

  And it might be one week, it might be one day, it might be one month, it might be six months of you showing up every day, saying, "How can I love you today?" "Oh, I don't know." Well, here's your favorite cup of coffee, just like you like it. And here's yet another sticky note on the mirror. Here's an invitation for you to come with me on a walk. Here's an invitation to come to my counseling session. And if you start asking, "Well, what about me, dude? What about me?" Then that's you keeping score with a person who's clearly struggling.

• 37:29Dr. John Delony?

  And right now, y'all need one of you to step up and say, "I'm gonna be all in. I'm gonna come kick in that door." And in this way, it's not kicking the door, it's gently approaching. And not talking about weight, not talking about you need to, and not talking about you should've, not talking about you used to, but talking about right now, how can I love you right now?

• 37:52Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm gonna keep showing up.

• 37:57Dr. John Delony?

  But ask her for, ask her for a couple of books, ask her for a couple of movies.

• 38:02Dr. John Delony?

  Enter into her world for a short season.

• 38:06Dr. John Delony?

  And maybe none of it works. Maybe it doesn't work at all. But maybe it does. And what you have been doing isn't working, period at the end of that sentence.

• 38:18Dr. John Delony?

  Let's go rescue your wife, man.

• 38:22Dr. John Delony?

  Make a call today to a counselor and you start going. Not so you can fix her, but so that you can learn to love this new version of the woman you married. Your move, brother. Appreciate the call, dude. We come back, a woman asks how to fix things with her brother after really making him mad.

• 38:41Dr. John Delony?

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• 39:23Dr. John Delony?

  Plus, Helix offers a 100 night trial and every Helix mattress comes with a 10 or 15 year warranty. And right now, Helix is giving my audience 27% off site wide. This is the best deal you're gonna find anywhere. Go to helix, H E L I X, helixsleep.com/daloni today. That's helixsleep.com/daloni. With Helix, better sleep starts right now.

• 39:50Dr. John Delony?

  All right, Little Rock, Arkansas. Let's talk to Holly. What's up, Holly?

• 39:55Speaker 03

  Hey, how are you?

• 39:56Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good. What'd he say?

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Well, I just feel very lucky that you're taking my call today, so I'm really looking forward to your advice on this. As you said before your break, I did do something that's kind of, well, definitely upset our family. It's really more my sister-in-law than my brother, although it's definitely affecting everyone.

• 40:18Dr. John Delony?

  What'd you do?

• 40:19Speaker 03

  So I sent some text messages. This was like seven years ago. I sent some text messages that although not very

• 40:32Dr. John Delony?

  What were they?

• 40:32Speaker 03

  Mature or

• 40:33Dr. John Delony?

  What were they? What'd they say?

• 40:36Speaker 03

  Basically, when my brother married his, you know, now wife, I think they'd been together, I don't remember, seven or eight years. Um, we started, we, as you say, like me, my mom, other people that knew him started noticing some changes in him. Like, he wasn't really allowed to come to our church anymore. His wife is very closed off, doesn't hardly talk to anybody, literally has never asked me a question in seven years. Like, "How are you? How is your son?" Like, ever. Um, and so, the, the messages that I sent were addressing that, but I, it was in a really immature way.

• 41:16Dr. John Delony?

  What did you write?

• 41:18Speaker 03

  I don't, it's been, okay, so here's the thing. It's been so many years that I can't, I honestly can't tell you specifically. I think I said things like, um, I may or may not have said that he drank the Kool-Aid. Things like that, that were not very nice. And just calling her, calling out the behavior that she's had towards him and towards the family. Um, so, obviously, in retrospect, I handled it poorly. Me and my brother have always been the type that, you know, how some siblings are. You can say things to each other, you can yell and scream, and then you're fine five minutes later. So, I sent those things in anger. Um, and then, what happened was she went in his phone and read

• 42:02Speaker 03

  them, but wouldn't let him tell me. So, for a couple of years, I had no idea she had read these text messages. Um...

• 42:11Dr. John Delony?

  You, you take away your brother's agency a lot.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, what do you, what do you mean, exactly?

• 42:18Dr. John Delony?

  Has it ever occurred to you that he showed her? That he didn't want to come to y'all's church?

• 42:23Speaker 03

  No. No.

• 42:24Dr. John Delony?

  How do you know that?

• 42:25Speaker 03

  No, no, no. I guarantee you, that's not the case. He would never, no, no, no, no, no. He would not do that.

• 42:34Dr. John Delony?

  You think that, you think that he would be married to somebody, and somebody would rip on his wife, to him?

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:42Dr. John Delony?

  And he would choose that person over his spouse?

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Um, no, I don't think that, nor do I think he should.

• 42:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, you think he would keep secrets?

• 42:53Speaker 03

  But I don't think he would purposely show her.

• 42:55Dr. John Delony?

  You're saying, you're saying two different things.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Well, I, I don't know what good it would have done to have shown her. Like even if he was like telling me like, hey, you're wrong. Don't ever talk about my wife again. That's one thing, but to show her, I don't see what good that would have done.

• 43:20Dr. John Delony?

  Well, to be a person of integrity and not keep secrets in his own marriage.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 43:27Dr. John Delony?

  Or maybe he has said, hey, my, and I'm making stuff up here, right? To be provocative, but I'm just trying to give a different side of the narrative. Cause you've got a story that's so entrenched in your head.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:38Dr. John Delony?

  That somehow you're trying to rescue your brother from this evil person.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:43Dr. John Delony?

  And what I've found over the years is it's never that cut and dry.

• 43:51Dr. John Delony?

  Or that you don't know that he might have told her, hey, dude, don't tell my family anything. It will end up in text threads. They just run their mouths about people, just keep low. And she was like, cool, got it.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:04Dr. John Delony?

  Or I want to go to whatever church we want to go to, or not go to church if we don't want to do that. And she's like, oh, thank God, I can't stand that place. Cool.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:14Dr. John Delony?

  I've been having to go to these Sunday lunches with my family for the last 15 years. If you don't want to like, cool.

• 44:22Dr. John Delony?

  Like you don't, I guess what I'm saying is you don't know. And so you have one side of a story that you've made up and this thing's gone on for seven years.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 44:32Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 44:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I think there's some fairness to that because I do think in the beginning. So me and my mom and my brother have always been very close. Um, you know, forever. And so I think in the beginning, there probably was a learning curve for everyone because my brother probably did consult us. And let me just say this, I would like to say this though. I can guarantee you, I have never once overstepped, I've never gone to their home unannounced. I think I've only been to their home three times in the past seven years. So I just don't want it to be paint the picture that when I say that, yes, there was a learning curve. This wasn't like a situation where he calls us every step he makes. We're giving him advice on everything to do because I know some families are very enmeshed like that. It was not that.

• 45:17Dr. John Delony?

  Totally.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  But nonetheless, I could see where he probably did go, oh, let me, you know, let me see what my sister's doing or whatever, and that probably was something that needed to change.

• 45:27Dr. John Delony?

  Well, and I guess I'm also wondering, is it hard for you and/or your mom?

• 45:34Dr. John Delony?

  That your beloved brother, this ride or die brother you had and your mom's, is it her only son?

• 45:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 45:41Dr. John Delony?

  Her only son chose another woman who became number one in his life.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:47Dr. John Delony?

  That's a tough pill to swallow.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  You know, it is, I agree, and, and I've had unfortunately plenty of years now to reflect on this. But the truth is, when he first met her, we were very excited because we, it's, it's too long to go into today, but there were some things that had us separated in our earlier years. And so we were very much like, okay, this is, we're going to make up for lost time together and blah, blah, blah. So when she came on the scene and was just cold and different, had, you know, didn't want to interact with anyone. It was very disappointing. It still is very disappointing.

• 46:26Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  And I know that's his decision, but...

• 46:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, exactly. That could be disappointing. And when he met somebody and he's like, dude, I think I met the girl.

• 46:34Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:35Dr. John Delony?

  You instantly had a picture in your head of what this was going to be like. You were going to get a new sister, y'all were going to have all these fun adventures together. It was going to be one big happy family. And she was like, I want our family to be us.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:48Dr. John Delony?

  And instead of grieving that picture that you concocted out of thin air, like, I want this to be like this. And she's like, no, the home that we were going to co-create is going to be different than the one your sister imagined and your mom imagined. And he was like, cool, great.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:03Dr. John Delony?

  Instead of grieving that and saying, okay, I still love my brother. He clearly sees something in this woman he wants to create a life with. And so I have to grieve the fantasy I made up. And then I got to find where I can be a part of this new thing or just decide I don't want to be a part of it at all.

• 47:20Dr. John Delony?

  But instead, you've kept your picture up on the wall and you keep pointing back to it, saying, "This is the way it should be, and she's the problem." And I guess, I guess what I'm saying is, after seven years, you still don't have a relationship with your brother, which seems to be the thing you miss the most.

• 47:35Speaker 03

  Well, of course, and I've, I've, and again, I guess I should have done this in person in retrospect, although I can almost guarantee you it would have turned out really poorly. But I have tried three times, I've emailed her three times, and basically said, "I'm an idiot, I'm so sorry, I said the things I said, I was angry, I was really more angry with my brother, I'm sorry, you have every right to be mad, what can I do about this? Do you want to meet in person?", blah, blah, blah, and she will not respond to any of my messages. My brother can't come to holiday meals now, he looks like he's aged 20 years, I mean,

• 48:16Speaker 03

  it's, it's turned into a horrible, big thing, and, and I don't know, I don't, I realize what I, I realize the texts were wrong, I take 100% accountability for that.

• 48:30Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but, I know, but Holly, but listen, this isn't about those text messages, that was seven years ago.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:35Dr. John Delony?

  It's not about, you gotta let those go.

• 48:39Dr. John Delony?

  You know...

• 48:39Speaker 03

  Well, I can't because I'm getting beat over the head with them constantly, because that's what she says is her reasoning.

• 48:44Dr. John Delony?

  She won't talk to you, how do you know?

• 48:47Speaker 03

  She, I'll walk by her and talk to her, and she literally won't, will not look at me or speak to me, and she does the same thing to my mom, who never sent any text messages, and pisses her butt all the time.

• 48:56Dr. John Delony?

  Then let it be, then let it be known that it's not about the text messages.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:01Dr. John Delony?

  She is going through whatever she's going through. Or let me put it this way, this is kind of a crass way to say it, but you're not the star of her story.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:11Dr. John Delony?

  And...

• 49:12Speaker 03

  I, I do realize that, I, I think there's something much deeper going on with her.

• 49:17Dr. John Delony?

  There might be, there might be, but here's what I'll tell you, you've done the right thing, you reached out to her directly on multiple occasions, you've taken the high road and said, "I screwed up",

• 49:26Dr. John Delony?

  and behavior is a language she has communicated loud and clear through her silence, "I don't want anything to do with you."

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:35Dr. John Delony?

  And so, the next thing to, for you to do with this is to be real sad that you lost your brother.

• 49:48Dr. John Delony?

  And to grieve the fact that you have a living brother who doesn't want anything to do with you.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  And he says he's completely torn. He says he hates, he knows that, you know, he thinks she's wrong for not being more forgiving, but he can't make her do anything.

• 50:06Dr. John Delony?

  He's exactly right.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  Which is true. Yeah, I agree. There's, you can't make anybody do anything.

• 50:12Dr. John Delony?

  And he can have a grown up choice of, um, uh, this is no way even close to the same thing, but, um, as a family, we chose not to travel this year. But I, my son and I ended up going on like almost a week long trip over the, over the holiday break.

• 50:34Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 50:34Dr. John Delony?

  It wasn't as a rejection of my wife, or my wife wasn't rejecting her family or my family. There was nothing like what y'all are experiencing, but I had a grown up choice to make saying, hey, I still want to go do these few things.

• 50:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:44Dr. John Delony?

  Um, and we, it was, it was awesome for everybody. And we missed each other. And so your brother does have a grown up choice to make, which is, I can't make you come to these lunches. I still miss my family. I'm gonna go to the lunch. He can do that.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  He did that for a while. Well, it, it kind of progressed for like them coming to the holidays together with her sitting on the couch on her phone, literally not making eye contact or speaking.

• 51:10Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, can we just stop, Holly? Just stop. Leave her alone.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:15Dr. John Delony?

  Just leave her alone.

• 51:19Speaker 03

  It's just, it's just like, I don't know how she can respect him or love him and know, seeing what this is doing to him. This isn't, he, my brother very much wants us to be okay, whatever that, that looks like. I do not expect any, to be holding hands and skipping through the tulips or anything at this point, believe me. But it's really breaking him down and it's hard for me to watch and it's hard for me to watch my mom be completely dissed at every turn. And, but I, I guess what you're saying is, yeah, that's all good and fine and true, but it is what it is.

• 51:54Dr. John Delony?

  It's not good and fine, but it is what it is.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:59Dr. John Delony?

  And so the choice y'all have is, do we really cherish the time when we get our, when our brother comes?

• 52:09Dr. John Delony?

  And we don't sit there in the corner, she shows up on the couch on her phone and side eyeing her, be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe she, we are just delighting in our brother.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:17Dr. John Delony?

  Our, in our, in your mom's son.

• 52:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm, I'm very much trying to, I really don't get that opportunity hardly anymore, but he does go by and check on my mom, so she gets, she at least.

• 52:30Dr. John Delony?

  That's amazing.

• 52:31Speaker 03

  Good.

• 52:31Dr. John Delony?

  That's amazing. I would not be interested in spending time with people who hate my wife.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:41Dr. John Delony?

  And so,

• 52:45Dr. John Delony?

  I wonder if there's a season, in the same way you asked her to forgive you for sending text messages seven years ago.

• 52:53Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:54Dr. John Delony?

  What if you wrote her a letter that you will good God never send, where you just say, I forgive you. I'm setting you down, because you're carrying the cinder block that is your imagination of her with you everywhere, and it's killing you.

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:08Dr. John Delony?

  It's not affecting her at all.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  I know.

• 53:15Dr. John Delony?

  Set it down.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  You're, you're right.

• 53:17Dr. John Delony?

  Set it down, stop carrying her around with you. Your brother chose her, and he's continuing to wake up every day and choose her over and over again.

• 53:28Dr. John Delony?

  And no amount of hate, no amount of side eye, no amount of mad, no amount of picking apart every action she takes or doesn't take, is changing anything other than it's killing you.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:39Dr. John Delony?

  Set it down.

• 53:43Dr. John Delony?

  Decide to write your brother a letter once a week, send it OG in the mail with a stamp, and only tell him some cool stuff that's going on in your life.

• 53:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:56Dr. John Delony?

  Because what's the alternative?

• 53:58Speaker 03

  I, yeah, apparently there's not.

• 54:00Dr. John Delony?

  None, none!

• 54:01Speaker 03

  Because I've been banging my head against the wall for seven years now.

• 54:03Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, and all you have is a concussion.

• 54:05Speaker 03

  It's not getting better, it's getting worse.

• 54:06Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, you just have a concussion from it. Stop hitting your head on the wall.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  And, and I know you can't fully give advice from his point of view, because, you know, you don't know all of their lives and all that, but I guess there's always this point in me where I hear, not only on your show, but just in general, and, and I believe, I truly do believe that obviously your spouse is supposed to be number one. I understand that, I've always understood that. But I also feel like sometimes people use it to their advantage. Like, I feel like it's like, even if they're having horrible behavior or whatever, and they come in and they kind of wreck people, uh, people's families. And I just wondered, uh, from my brother's perspective, like, if he can say, "Hey, I'm gonna go have lunch with them every once in a blue moon," or something to that effect, but he goes home and there's hell to pay.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  What does he, I mean, I, I, that, that's my main concern is I don't think there's-

• 54:58Dr. John Delony?

  He has hell to pay if he doesn't go.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:00Dr. John Delony?

  He can't win.

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:04Dr. John Delony?

  He can't win.

• 55:08Dr. John Delony?

  And so if he doesn't come, if y'all invite him, and he says, "I can't make it," say, "We love you. We're really gonna miss you. Have an awesome weekend."

• 55:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:20Dr. John Delony?

  And then if you put your phone down and turn it off and sob your eyes out because you miss your brother, that's the next right move.

• 55:27Dr. John Delony?

  Because the turmoil in that exchange is inside of you.

• 55:33Dr. John Delony?

  And you can choose, "We're just not gonna invite him anymore." Okay. Or we're gonna keep inviting him, and we're gonna risk getting told no over and over again.

• 55:41Speaker 03

  And she's welcome too. That's the thing. Like, she, if she walked in today and never said she was sorry, but just started being halfway civil, I'd be, great. Good. Let's move forward.

• 55:51Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, that's not gonna happen.

• 55:52Speaker 03

  But I mean, I know that's not gonna happen. Yeah.

• 55:53Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so, yeah. Set her down.

• 55:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:56Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm confident that your brother knows that if you ever, if he ever knocked on your door in the middle of the night saying, "I need a place to stay," you'd be, he'd be welcome. He knows that.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:07Dr. John Delony?

  But you're taking your-

• 56:08Speaker 03

  I guess it is just grieving because it's just, you know, "My son doesn't have an uncle. I don't get to see my niece." But it's just-

• 56:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yes. All of those things are true. Send pictures of your son in the mail.

• 56:21Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 56:25Dr. John Delony?

  What you want to establish is not a decade of, "I told you so, and I can't believe you, and she's the worst." Because nobody wants to engage with that.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:36Dr. John Delony?

  No behavior is ever changed long-term through complaining and nagging your way to something.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true.

• 56:42Dr. John Delony?

  What you want is 10 years from today on, of, "I always kept showing up for you."

• 56:51Dr. John Delony?

  "I sent you a letter every week."

• 56:54Dr. John Delony?

  "I sent you a picture of your nephew every other week." And then, when your nephew, when your son is 18, and he says, "Where's Uncle so-and-so?", you can then say, "Man, he's struggling. I tried."

• 57:09Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:11Dr. John Delony?

  And, "I'm gonna be a person of character. I'm not gonna get down in the mud, and they get mad at everybody that I'm dirty."

• 57:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:24Dr. John Delony?

  Here's the thing, I think, I think all of your anger and frustration, it's not even anger, it's rage. You're mad at this woman. I think all of that is protecting you from how sad you feel that you had this amazing relationship with your brother, and he chose to go a different direction. It's heartbreak.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:41Dr. John Delony?

  Let yourself be sad.

• 57:47Dr. John Delony?

  And then, go do the next right thing. Which might be, "You know what? This is what you've been asking for for the better part of a decade. I'm gonna stop annoying you. I'm gonna stop reaching out." Or, "I'm not gonna lose you. I want you to know my nephew. My nephew's gonna write you letters too. I'm gonna send you a letter every other week, forever."

• 58:11Dr. John Delony?

  You can do that too.

• 58:14Dr. John Delony?

  But this is not about the text messages. Stop with that story.

• 58:25Dr. John Delony?

  The next move is yours. But I think the next right move for you is a season of just being sad. I miss my brother.

• 58:36Dr. John Delony?

  We'll be right back.

• 58:39Dr. John Delony?

  This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Sometimes it can feel like everyone else's love lives are perfect little Hallmark movies. But here's the truth. Married, dating, or single, everyone, everyone is still figuring out how to do life and relationships well. I've been married for 23 and a half years. Both my wife and I have PhDs, and we're still trying to figure out how to keep our marriage rolling down the track. And both of us have benefited greatly from our times with a good therapist. No matter if you just met someone, or if you've been married forever like me, therapy can help you find your way, what you want, what feels heavy, and how you can take some of the pressure off yourself and build a stronger relationship.

• 59:22Dr. John Delony?

  Whether for individuals or couples, therapy is an opportunity to identify what's getting in the way and help remove any blockers. And for all of this, I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions through the platform, and if the first therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch anytime at no additional cost. When it comes to love and relationships, everyone is still finding their way. Find yours. Visit betterhelp.com/deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash deloney.

• 1:00:02Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we're back. What's up, Kelly?

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  All right, so over the holidays, I was reading through the comments on our Ask Me Anything that came out on Christmas Eve.

• 1:00:10Dr. John Delony?

  Ah, okay. People watched that?

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:13Dr. John Delony?

  No, they didn't.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, they did. I don't know that they all watched it on Christmas Eve, but they watched it. And there was an overwhelming, overwhelming question about something you said, and I thought it was worth bringing up here.

• 1:00:25Dr. John Delony?

  Oh.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Dr. John Delony?

  I don't even know what's coming.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  No, he doesn't. I haven't told him that I'm doing this, y'all. So there was confusion, dismay, disbelief, and anger.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  A lot of anger.

• 1:00:37Dr. John Delony?

  Nice.

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  Over your comment that you and Sheila don't know who the other voted for.

• 1:00:43Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, why?

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  So, I'll give you the main thing that we heard. Some people just were like, "That's just crap." That's, you know, that's fine. But the people that actually had valid thoughts, the main issue that they felt was, "If I can't talk about these kind of things with my spouse, the one person that is supposed to be my safe place."

• 1:01:03Dr. John Delony?

  Ah, gotcha.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  Then we're keeping things from each other, or we're not being true to who we are, that kind of thing.

• 1:01:09Dr. John Delony?

  Gotcha.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  And I understand that. We've been talking about it here.

• 1:01:11Dr. John Delony?

  Totally, yeah, yeah. Okay, so let me clarify that.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  So I wanted you to go with, run with that.

• 1:01:14Dr. John Delony?

  So, A, we talk about politics all the time in my house, all the time. And I have 99.9999999% sure who my wife voted for, and vice versa. Very clear. The reason, and this actually started, it's a good question, I should have been more clear. It started all the way back when I was working with graduate students. And everyone was always peppering me with, "Who did you vote for? Who did you not vote for? Why don't you tell us? Are you a coward or whatever?" So, the way I avoided that conversation was, I told my wife, "I'm not gonna ask you who you went and clicked to vote for, and you don't ask me." And she was like, "Okay." So that I could tell my students, I don't even talk,

• 1:01:58Dr. John Delony?

  I keep that for me. And I'll also say this, inside my house with my marriage, like, there's, we talk about everything. So, rest assured. My wife has told me I make things very uncomfortable when people come visit, and I just assume they all talk about everything, too. The number of times people have been at my house, and I'm like, "Oh, y'all never had that conversation. Whoops." So, we're good in my house. But, I've also found this over the last decade especially. When it comes to voting, people care less about, I'm making a broad statement, people care less about, "I have this set of principles that I'm for, and I have this

• 1:02:43Dr. John Delony?

  set of things that I'm against, and I'm gonna lay these things out." People are interested in being on the winning team. I want my person to have won. And so instead of saying, I don't like this, or I don't like this, I want to be on the winning side. Um, I think that shifts a lot of politics talk. And so I won't engage with people who are interested in defining everything I am and all the things I'm not by that one button that I pushed in this room. And in my little cubicle or whatever. And by the way, I'll also say the last two times I voted, I took my son in with me because I wanted him to see who I was voting for. And we talked about why.

• 1:03:25Dr. John Delony?

  So it's not like this big, but when it comes in the house, it's been a lot, it's probably been more than a decade now. It's been longer than that. Geez, probably 15 years. We just, I don't be like, okay, who'd you put, who'd you push the button for? I'm pretty sure I knew. I'm pretty sure, and vice versa. But it allows me to, when I'm out in public, when I'm in like forever, I could say, dude, I didn't tell my wife who I pushed that, that button for. Um, I did tell my adolescent child. And so if you want to go, he probably wouldn't tell anybody anyway. So, um, that's the answer. That's the true answer to that. Do you go home, you're like, I voted for.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  No. Um, and.

• 1:04:04Dr. John Delony?

  I guess if my wife asked me, I would tell her. I don't, I just don't ask her to tell her that question.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  But I mean, I have, I mean, I very clearly know where my husband stands and, and I'm probably a bit more of an enigma in it than he is, but I think he also knows like that he, you know, 99.9999% sure of where I voted.

• 1:04:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  Uh, but no, I don't go home and go, I hit this one or checked this one or whatever. So no, that makes more sense.

• 1:04:27Dr. John Delony?

  It's so not a question that we ask in my house. I guess it's, I get it. I get the confusion, but yeah, we, but, but again, in my house, we debate personalities and we debate principles. We don't try to see which team the other person's on. Does that make sense?

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think the, the question that our listeners had about it was, I think they took it as we don't talk about this at all.

• 1:04:48Dr. John Delony?

  Oh God, we talk about everything in the house. Who we can't stand? People act like idiots, people act like morons, people aren't telling the truth. Like, we talk about all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we talk about, there's, there, I can't think of a thing in my house that we don't talk about. Probably too much. Um, but that's just a question we don't ask. And it started from self-protection with my students. But over the years, it has been, that just is a question that I throw all this other baggage at you if I know what button you pushed. With no context, no meaning, no, I felt like I had two bad options. I felt like I had two great options. None of that. It's just a way to divide the world up, and I refuse to give that to people.

• 1:05:29Dr. John Delony?

  And my, one of my favorite things about what we've created here is, um, nobody knows where we stand. And that to me is the most helpful thing when you show up sitting with a hurting person, which is, um, hey, I'm glad to see you. And none of this other stuff matters. I'm happy that you're here. And so, I don't know. That's, that's my thing. But yeah, no, we talk about everything in our house, but we don't ask that question. Love you guys, bye.