Conversation with Carol Spahn — the Peace Corps and the Power of Service

Carol Spahn, the director of the Peace Corps, joins Scott to discuss the organization’s history and evolution, its adaptation after the pandemic, and the metrics they use to gauge success. Additionally, Carol shares insights from her own service experience and highlights the transformative impact of stepping out of one’s comfort zone. Follow Carol on Twitter (X), @PeaceCorpsDir. P. S. Scott is on holiday, so we’ll be back with our business analysis and Algebra of Happiness in September! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 1:33Scott Galloway?

  Episode 262, 262 is the area code for southeastern Wisconsin. In 1962, the first Walmart store opened in Arkansas, and the first James Bond theme song was composed. I saw my proctologist and complained about all of this bleeding coming out of my ass. He ignored me and kept pushing his cart at Walmart. Sometimes for fun, I put an Alka Seltzer in my mouth, pretend I'm foaming from the mouth, and run around my Walmart saying, "The vaccines don't work." Don't know why I find that so funny. Go, go, go!

• 2:13Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 262nd episode of the Prop G Pod. The dog is on holiday. So in place of our regular scheduled programming, we're sharing our interview with Carol Spahn, the Director of the Peace Corps. We discuss with Carol the Peace Corps' history and evolution, its adaptation after the pandemic, and the metrics Carol uses to gauge success. Additionally, she shares insights from her own service experience and highlights the transformative impact of stepping out of one's comfort zone. So with that, enjoy our conversation with Carol Spahn. Carol, where does this podcast find you?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  DC.

• 2:45Scott Galloway?

  Let's bust right into it. Can you give us sort of the brief history of the Peace Corps, what the mission is, how it's evolved?

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So Peace Corps was founded in 1961 by President John F. Kennedy,

• 2:59Speaker 02

  ramped up very quickly on really what was an experiment at the time of putting young people, young professionals into service in communities around the world. And he really asked people, don't ask what you can do, your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Are you willing? Are you willing to go to Ghana and serve as a doctor? Are you willing to go to a place you've never been and to serve? And there was an overwhelming response, both from the countries that were approached to

• 3:38Speaker 02

  see if they wanted to host Peace Corps volunteers and from volunteers themselves. And Peace Corps has been a steady presence in more than 60 countries around the world for the last 62 years and has invited professionals of all ages to go and serve. They live and work in a community. So they integrate into that community. They learn the local language. They live at the level of the people they are serving. For two years, and that two years is really important. So it is a significant investment

• 4:17Speaker 02

  of time in working side by side. And the premise is that world peace and friendship is not the exclusive mandate of politicians. It is about each and every one of us going and living and working together across difference, creating relationships, creating connections, and that those connections last a lifetime.

• 4:43Scott Galloway?

  How has the volunteer base changed or evolved, or has it not? What is the typical Peace Corps volunteer? And I imagine you're going to tell me there's no typical Peace Corps volunteer, but how is the makeup of the people drawn to the Peace Corps shifted since 1962?

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Well, I will give you the answer that you expected to hear, which is there is no typical volunteer. I served as a Peace Corps country director in Malawi for five years, one of the poorest countries in the world. I had a volunteer who was the youngest serving volunteer at the time. She was 20, had been homeschooled, got through college very quickly, decided to do the Peace Corps, and the oldest serving volunteer at the time, who was 82. And she said, I was not content sitting on my rocking chair, watching reruns. I needed to get out in the world and do something, and I want to encourage everyone to do that

• 5:44Speaker 02

  and to be a part of something bigger. We have retired teachers, we have retired business people, and we have people who are straight out of undergrad. And it really depends on what the country's needs are for skilled professionals, or just for young, passionate, energetic people who are going to come and engage with their young people.

• 6:11Scott Galloway?

  But do the majority have a college degree? Do the majority go on to professional services? Do you drop people usually that end up in healthcare? Do a disproportionate number of alum go into government?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Great question. So yes, the vast majority do have a college degree, and that is because of the requests and requirements from the host government. So we do our very best to honor the requests that countries are asking us for. Many of them go on to careers in service, but they also go on to careers in business and other fields. There is a direct pathway into federal service. So volunteers who complete their service get to a year of, sorry, a year of non-competitive eligibility for federal service. So we have thousands and thousands of volunteers

• 7:03Speaker 02

  and returned volunteers at USCID, at the State Department, EPA, FEMA, and a lot of employers who specifically recruit volunteers because they know and understand the skillsets that they bring back from their service. And those skillsets are things like adaptability, flexibility, resilience, intercultural competence, all skills that are desperately needed in today's workforce.

• 7:33Scott Galloway?

  So I think of the Peace Corps as being one of the, it's truly a global brand. It's this iconic brand that's recognized, at least I think every American knows where the Peace Corps is. But how do you measure success? So what are your metrics for if, if they said, Carol, we want you to leave the Peace Corps better than when you found it, and you have 10 years. What would the metrics, what does success look like? Is it to promote goodwill towards America? Is it to build skills among the Corps such that they're better prepared to come back and be good citizens? Is it just to build health and societal infrastructure in nations that maybe don't have access to those types of things? What would be the metrics you would put in place that would indicate what success looks like for the Corps?

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Sure. So it it happens at different levels and I'd like to break it down. So for the volunteers themselves, um, we are looking at their competencies that they grow and develop over the term of their service and how they then are bringing that service and that served mind distance back to the United States. For their time in country, we are looking at, you know, what is the educational achievement of the students with whom they teach? You know, what is the impact on issues like malaria, like um HIV prevention?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  How have we impacted some of those key development needs in country? But really, as we look long term, the impact of the Peace Corps is much bigger than the impact of any one volunteer in one community for two years. What I see when ministers, foreign ministers, come into my office and say, when can the Peace Corps come back? We need you back. And by the way, I was taught by a volunteer and it matters to my country because we have this incredible youth bulge. English is the language of opportunity.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  It's the language of business and what your volunteers bring is hope and energy and passion and skills that can help us to develop over time. That is powerful and that's a powerful generational impact. Um, that that generational impact of goodwill towards the United States and um, you know, real passion for connecting across difference is very difficult to put in a metric.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  And there are some people who have tried. There is a research study that shows the impact of volunteers and the corresponding favorability ratings and what happens when that number goes up or down over a period of decades. That is the closest to a metric on the broad scale that I have seen. I would say the longer term impact is more in the intangible goodwill space. And the way I really like to talk about it is it's goodwill on the balance sheet of the United States. Having a country that invests money, right?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  We trade, we might build a hospital. That means one thing that, you know, people might remember for five years or 10 years. Having an American who shows up in a community, learns the language, integrates into the culture, lives at the level of the people they're with, works side by side with them for two years. That shows that America cares, that people care in countries that are very relationship based. And that human connection is one of, you know, the most powerful indicators of this lifelong connection that people then have for the communities where they serve.

• 11:34Scott Galloway?

  Where would you describe that the Peace Corps brand? I hate to use the term brand, but where is it? Its reputation in terms of popularity, the number of applicants relative to the number of spots? How would you describe the state of play around the Peace Corps right now in our society?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  I would say that the COVID-19 pandemic distorted everything. So when I think about the Peace Corps brand, I think about it on both the demand side. So what are we hearing from countries as well as, you know, what's happening with potential volunteers?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  We left every country during the COVID-19 pandemic. It was the first time Peace Corps has ever globally evacuated in its 62-year history. As we are sending volunteers back into service, we gave every country the option to opt out. Said, "Do you want us back or do you not want us back?" Every single country wants us back. They want us back in bigger numbers. Every country has been impacted by COVID. And we have a backlog of 14 countries that have formally requested volunteers. And these are numbers that I haven't seen before,

• 12:55Speaker 02

  where countries are asking for 1,000 volunteers in their country so that they can put a teacher in every high school. Typically, a country might have 100 volunteers, right? So there's just this insatiable demand around the world. What we are seeing in the United States is the impact of, we'll call it a COVID hangover, right? People are still just sort of coming out of, you know, this COVID pandemic and deciding where they want to move and where they want to go.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Peace Corps' brand awareness is down because we didn't have volunteers in the field for two years, and they are our best recruiters. At any particular time, we might have had 6,500, 7,000 volunteers out there telling their stories and encouraging other people to go. So we are building that back up. We have a bold invitation campaign that is out right now, and we're seeing very good results. People want to take action. They want to do something bold and courageous. And Peace Corps is a terrific opportunity for them to really stretch beyond their comfort zone and do something that is transformative in ways they will never imagine.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  But it has been tough. And all of the employers, all of the service organizations are facing challenges with recruitment as people decide sort of how they are going to move forward in their lives.

• 14:33Scott Galloway?

  Is it a challenge of the number of applicants or similar to the armed services where I think I read somewhere three and four just don't have the skills or the physical strength? And in some, we're creating, we have a disproportionate number of young Americans who aren't emotionally or physically viable for this type of service. Are you having trouble getting applicants or trouble getting qualified applicants?

• 14:56Speaker 02

  So I would say it's a complex picture right now. Applications are down and the number of people who we can clear for service is also down. So it's a higher percentage that are not clearing.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  And we are trying to tease out sort of why people are dropping out of the process. And is that because, you know, they're not ready or is it because they have another opportunity? So it's a mixed bag right now with a lot of

• 15:30Scott Galloway?

  What would you speculate though Carol? I mean, I mean, this is really interesting. This is, this is an opportunity to do something really important. It's something, it's just a really good rap. No one says, no one says, oh, I don't like that person. They served in the Peace Corps. You just don't ever hear that. It is, it is one of the few I think, like I can imagine that you put on your resume and is impressive to anybody you meet. And, you know, generally speak, generally speaking, says you're a, an interesting, credentialed, good person. So it just, A, it's surprising you don't get more applicants. But what is it about, why aren't people clearing? Is it, you're on the front lines here, seeing these, this application pool. What do you think is happening in our society where people aren't as interested, not as interested?

• 16:15Scott Galloway?

  And why do applicants, why is a greater proportion of applicants not kind of up to the task? If you will.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Everything I have looked at does not point to a single factor. And we're digging in. So once someone is invited to the Peace Corps, it is a six to eight month process for them to get legally cleared, medically cleared and ready to go. That is something that just simply takes time. And in this environment, there are plenty of job opportunities, right? A lot of life is happening, right? And people may be questioning their decisions. I don't know.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  What I do know is that it's a tight job market. And there is a sense of, and I forget where I read this, something about sort of the impatience, wanting more immediate results. Another thing I've questioned is the two-year commitment, which is a fundamental part of our model. And, you know, is that something that people start to second guess the timeframe?

• 17:35Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 17:40Scott Galloway?

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• 18:22Scott Galloway?

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• 18:40Scott Galloway?

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• 19:52Scott Galloway?

  Talk a little bit about your own experience. You were a volunteer in Romania. What were the biggest surprises to the upside and the downside around your service?

• 20:00Speaker 02

  So, I entered service having been in corporate America. So, I was accounting. I was with KPMG, Pete Marwick. I was doing the corporate thing, worked for a mortgage bank, and then went to Peace Corps in Romania as a small business development volunteer. And I had expected Peace Corps, at that point in my life, to be in Africa, in Southeast Asia, you know, somewhere doing more hands-on sort of work. And here I was, in this post-communist country. It was four years after the fall of communism. And I had to have my mom send my suits over because I was working in Eastern Europe at

• 20:44Speaker 02

  a small business consulting center and working with entrepreneurs trying to start up their own businesses as an entire economy was shifting from a state-run economy to private enterprise. And it was a fascinating experience to understand how communism played in the psyche.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Of people, the distrust that it created and to experience that sort of firsthand, but also to see sort of where those sparks are, where the the opportunities were to really engage with the right people. And and anytime you're engaging, you know, in helping start up a new business or anything else, you're you're ultimately investing in the the person. Right? And so it was an exercise in finding the right people who really had the skills and interest in moving forward and creating something new in an economy that was transitioning.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  And I grew up in the Cold War era, so had lots of preconceptions about what communism meant and and what it might have been like to live in that world. That was just a fascinating time in history to be a part of that transition.

• 22:09Scott Galloway?

  And you went back 10, 20 years later to be the country director for Malawi? Is that correct?

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:16Scott Galloway?

  What draws you? I mean, you were a successful executive. I imagine had a pretty nice life. I mean, that just can't be easier, that comfortable to to head to a developing nation and give up a life of, you know, professional success and the comforts that come along with that. What drew you to that? And did you have kids at the time? And what it strikes me that that takes a special type of person that, quite frankly, I have a difficult time relating to. I just I just like Netflix too much. What is sort of what drew you to that?

• 22:54Speaker 02

  I think my first comment to that would be that comfort is overrated. My favorite quote that I shared with volunteers is that, you know, life begins at the end of your comfort zone. And I distinctly remember standing on the sidelines of my daughter's soccer game. She was high school at the time and she wasn't getting any playing time. And I was getting quite enraged as any good mother, any good soccer mom would do because quite clearly she was the most gifted one out there. Um, and I said to myself, like, this is not, this is not what I should be getting enraged over.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  And when the opportunity came to go back uh to the Peace Corps, it also came at a time when my brother um had reached the end of a five-year battle with brain cancer. And the call came almost around the same time as, as he was told that there was nothing more they could do for him.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  And it was a really powerful moment for me to say to myself and to talk with the family and say, look, this is, this is something that's important to do and, you know, we can do it now or we can do it at a future period. But, you know, this is, I, I did not feel like we were living. I felt like we were going through the motions of a life that is defined by certain norms of society.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  And I had learned through my Peace Corps experience and through all of the people I'd met throughout that, that there is not, there is not one way to live and that there are a lot of rich opportunities to grow personally that outweigh all of the other things that, that people might care about or think about in terms of success. And it's, um, you know, every time I've gone back out into that world, um, I have just grown in, in leaps and bounds.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  My bank account didn't grow, but I. I my life has been personally enriched in so many ways. So when I went back to Peace Corps as a country director, my oldest was going into her senior year in high school. And my youngest was going into her sophomore year and my husband was giving up a job teaching. And we sat down as a family and said, oh, this is something that ought to scare you. Um, it's, you know, we would be going to a country where there are, you know, no malls, no movie theaters, you're you'll go to a high school where there are not great sports teams.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Um, you know, there's a lot at stake here and we're not going to ask you to do it unless you are ninety five percent in. If you're all in, then you know, you're not really thinking clearly, but you know, you need to be all in because this this is represents a very big change um for our family and they were they were in.

• 26:39Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, I think that's really powerful. So recognizing and I'm I'm going to try and summarize and tell me where I have this wrong. Recognizing the finite nature of life because of the past and your brother and an acknowledgement that it's, you know, it goes fast and that you need to dictate your life, that stepping outside of what other people expect or what society expects of you does not does not dictate your happiness. You dictate your happiness. I find that really moving and really powerful. And it just sort of like hits you like, well, of course, that's the way to live your life, even though most of us don't. The thing I find unusual, quite frankly, is that a sophomore and senior girls agreed to go to Malawi. I

• 27:24Scott Galloway?

  find that extraordinary. I can't even imagine my sons would be like, well, are we flying Emirates? You know, they'd start asking questions about, do they have PlayStation? I can't even I can't even imagine the how awful the conversation or weird the conversation would be. So you had 10th and 12th grade girls and they decided to come uh live with you and your husband in Malawi for how long?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  We were there for five years. The girls were there for, you know, they finished up their high school and went off to college in the US and then came back on their breaks.

• 28:04Scott Galloway?

  What was the hardest thing about spending five years doing that?

• 28:09Speaker 02

  It was very challenging having them in college and so far away. So that if something happened, there wasn't an easy way to get to them. And being far from family and all of those things that you miss. All of the things that you would expect that would be challenging. Uh, living and working in a country like Malawi um had tremendous benefits. And there are so many elements to that that you you learn and absorb over time. So I'll give you an example. Life is obviously very challenging in Malawi.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Um, eighty-five percent of the people there are subsistence farmers. And regular outages of electricity and water and just all of the basics. Every day, something would surprise me. Whether it was a little boy dancing on the street. Or, you know, the electricity, the water that goes out in the middle of your shower. Or, you know, just, just any unexpected thing. Yet every day, the janitor at our office building, who did not make great money, had six kids, would greet me with the biggest smile, a huge wave and a good morning, madam.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  And every single day, there was tremendous laughter in the hallways. And I would ask people, I know you spent the weekend in in the hospital with your loved one who has malaria, and I know your lives are hard. And you show up every day with a lot of care and a lot of community. Like, how do you do it? Like, I would show up grumpy, right? I would be grumpy, thinking about all of the things I had to do that day until I got this beautiful greeting from the, from the groundskeeper. And they told me, Carol, it's a, it's a choice we make for each other.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  We make a choice to show up every day for each other, knowing that our lives are hard and their lives are hard. And we bring laughter and joy to our days. And it's not because our lives are easy. It's because it's a choice we make.

• 30:35Scott Galloway?

  So you made the leap that I think a lot of us are envious of, and you said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna set the rules for what makes me happy and how I want to live my life. But what is it about this that makes you happy? Is it service? Is it adventure? Is it a sense that you're doing something different? Is it roughing it and feeling a sense of achievement that you've endured this? Like, what is it about this that makes you happy?

• 31:00Speaker 02

  So I've read and studied a lot about the, the things that make people happy. And I think at the end of the day, it's purpose and meaning and connection. Those are the things that, that make people happy. And I believe so fundamentally in the Peace Corps' mission and the way we approach our work. And during my time in Malawi, I saw probably 500 volunteers come through and I watched them get off the plane, very eager and optimistic and excited. And I never called it an adventure. I always said, this is not an adventure, it's a journey.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  And there's a big difference because a journey, you walk side by side and you know that there are going to be highs and lows. Um, and I went through highs and lows, much higher highs and much lower lows with people than they probably ever expected. And then I met with them at the end of this two-year, just transformational experience. And they were people with tremendous depth.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Because they had taken this risk to go out and do something unexpected. So for for me, it's the purpose and the meaning that that drives me every day and makes me love my work. And I think if you spoke to, you know, any person who volunteered or any of the staff members here, there are good days, there are bad days, just like anybody else, but they are passionate about their work.

• 32:45Scott Galloway?

  Purpose, meaning and connection. Carol Spahn is an American government official currently serving as the director of the Peace Corps. She brings a wealth of experience in international development, having served as a Peace Corps volunteer in Romania and held executive positions in organizations, including Women for Women International and the Accordia Global Health Foundation. Spahn previously served as acting director and CEO of the Peace Corps. She is dedicated to promoting global cooperation, empowering communities and leading the Peace Corps in its mission to create positive change worldwide. She joins us from her office in our nation's capital. Carol, I I'm just, I am just, it is so heartening that such talented, decent people continue to go to work for our government. Thank you so much for your service.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having us.

• 33:35Scott Galloway?

  This episode was produced by Caroline Shaver. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show.

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