The Hidden UFO Program Is Real - Here’s How It Works! (ft. UAPGerb)

Our American Alchemist this week is UAP Gerb. Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/americanalchemy 🚨 IT’S PROBABLY NOTHING - 2026 Live Tour! 🚨I’m so excited to announce that Chris Ramsay (Area52) and myself are going on a North American Tour! To access the tickets go to: https://www.itsprobablynothing.com -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 04:32 Meet UAP Gerb 06:00 Legacy Programs 12:03 The Pyramid of Contractors 16:46 Whistleblowers and Leaks 23:50 Modern Majestic 12 27:10 Exploring the IPU Docs 31:08 A Naval Perspective 32:24 The Administrators of Secrecy 37:38 Individuals in the Shadows 41:27 A Call to Action 43:04 The Office of Global Access 49:48 The Conflict of Interest 51:28 The Role of MITRE 1:03:02 Testimony from the Inside 1:09:22 The Alien Reproduction Vehicle 1:15:47 Jonathan Wagan's Story 1:18:43 Evidence and Obfuscation 1:19:53 Crash Retrieval Teams 1:22:01 The DOE NEST 1:24:58 Agencies and Contractors 1:28:08 The Roswell Incident 1:30:25 The 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement 1:31:35 J. Andrew Kistner's Testimony 1:31:55 The GAO Audit 1:32:56 The Y-12 Complex 1:33:37 Whistleblower Testimonies 1:44:25 Underground Military Bases 1:52:44 Covert Operations and Facilities 1:56:47 UFO Crash Statistics 2:04:48 Marconi’s Involvement 2:07:16 The Legacy of Eric Henry Wang 2:12:32 Interconnected Cases and Research 2:14:36 The Role of Disclosure 2:26:34 The Nature of Reality 2:28:42 Controlled Disclosure Dynamics 2:35:01 Global Superpower and Disclosure 2:38:42 The Shadow Government 2:39:28 Locations of Alien Bodies 2:40:54 Whistleblower Insights 2:43:52 Credibility of Testimonies 2:45:12 Skepticism in the UFO Community 2:47:17 The Future of Disclosure 2:49:17 Legacy Programs and Control 2:51:34 The Role of Psyops 2:54:16 The Intersection of Science and UFOs 2:56:22 Personal Aspirations for Disclosure 2:59:35 The Challenge of Truth in UFO Research 3:02:06 The Need for Public Accountability 3:04:20 Navigating the UFO Narrative 3:07:13 The Importance of Human Experience 3:10:08 Closing Remarks on UFO Discourse 3:12:41 American Alchemy Merch Launch Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Jonathan Wiegand, he is told at one point that there's a downed friendly or forehand plane. No big deal. After a combination of driving and trekking, they encounter a clearing. There's an enormous egg-shaped, teardrop-shaped craft embedded in the cliff face. And there seemed to be a hatch open with an arm hanging out with four fingers.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  It was dripping, syrup-like, this liquid. It was everywhere. It was weird. It was pumplish, green-colored.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  He feels like a Venus communicating to him in his mind, telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  They were not going to harm me. That was basically that everything is going to be all right. Just help me, just help us get out of here.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  There's one common thread I found, and each of these three people had the same thing happen, that they kind of answered independently. They're immediately intercepted by between eight and 12 operators in all black, no insignia, no name tags, held at gunpoint. All three of these men, directly after their encounters, were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters.

• 1:28Jesse Michels?

  Anthrax booster.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29Jesse Michels?

  So weird. You are one of the few people who puts names, dates, programs, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program. You're famous for your acronyms.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  CONUS and OCONUS, Outside Conus, Continental United States Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance Platforms, ISR, OICI, and yes, FFRDC, federally funded research and development centers.

• 1:49Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:50Jesse Michels?

  You have somebody like Dick Cheney.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52Jesse Michels?

  Maybe at the top.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54Jesse Michels?

  And then you have the six different kind of high-up intelligence organizations.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  And DOD stuff.

• 1:59Jesse Michels?

  And DOD stuff.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so you have DOD plus intelligence organizations.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Do you know the first director of OGA, the Office of Global Access?

• 2:10Jesse Michels?

  Is that Doug Wolfe?

• 2:10Speaker 01

  This is Doug Wolfe. Do you know Doug Wolfe spent 16 years in the NRO? He was the executive assistant to the director of the National Reconnaissance Office.

• 2:18Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  He was indeed CIA DS&T Deputy Director. He indeed started the OGA.

• 2:22Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  And indeed, he was the DDNI AT&F, the Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition, Technology and Facilities, who has direct oversight over NRO acquisitions.

• 2:32Jesse Michels?

  Crazy. It's obviously Bob Lazar, you know, was briefed on Project Looking Glass.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38Jesse Michels?

  Which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor. He kind of thinks of himself as like a Adjustment Bureau Timeline Management Person.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  This sphere was basically used to, I guess, like coagulate time onto the Planck scale, looking at time as frames of Planck scale and combined with like the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines.

• 3:09Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Sammy UAP Gerb, who in my estimation is the most hardcore UFO researcher today. And I think in a world where kind of a lot of people like to talk in these sort of really vague generalities, it's always everything is everything. A lot of mushy-brained thinking where A is true and B is true, but somehow A and B are mutually exclusive. Nothing really makes sense, you know, except everything kind of wholeheartedly. You are one of the few people who tries to put names, dates, programs, you know, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program. You're famous for your acronyms. And you have a real map that you're kind of basically like illustrating through every

• 3:54Jesse Michels?

  single episode of what is actually happening in the concrete UFO reverse engineering program. So I'm excited to get into all of that with you today.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Well, thanks for having me on, Jesse. This is the kind of second big program we've done. And a while ago, I think it was the beginning of the year, I had a super small channel. You had me on, really brought some exposure to kind of my platform. So I'm super grateful to that. I appreciate you kind of taking a chance and having me on then. We had a great conversation then. We'll have an even better conversation today because people who've watched my channel know that what I like to do is legacy programs, you know. Chris Ramsey is interested in the experiencer. You're interested in more physics-based science. I like legacy programs. I like acronyms. I like really boring program fundings such. So I kind of focus on UFO legacy programs, crash retrieval.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Basically, in a sense, programs to retrieve, store, exploit, and derive technologies of non-human origin. The approach I like to take is really trying to iron out specifics and be as specific as possible. I've been super interested in the subject since I was a little kid. But, you know, we talked about this yesterday. It seemed to me, and it just like a lot of people approach this topic, like there was always the amorphous "they" of running UFO reverse engineering programs, the big US government, the big "they." And it wasn't until David Grush spoke in 2023 that something clicked in my head and I thought, I can really start attributing names to these programs, people who have worked in the programs, where these programs might take place, exact mechanisms, how these programs might be funded,

• 5:32Speaker 01

  exact contractors, exact institutions that might be working on them. So I love hyper specifics. And if we want to talk hyper specifics today, we can do just that.

• 5:39Jesse Michels?

  Let's do it because I think a lot of people are probably extremely confused at the org chart of the actual UFO legacy program. I think the debrief published something, I want to say at the end of last year, around the White House having to do with some of these programs. You hear that the White House sometimes has to do with some of the programs. And then simultaneously, you hear that the president doesn't have a need to know and doesn't know anything about the program. So you hear these things all the time that are so handwavy about how this stuff works. And I think you're the only person who's actually mapping it out. What is the org structure of the UFO legacy program?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  So I'm trying to map it out. I think at the end of the day, this is probably more complicated than any of us can guess because there's 80, 90 years at least of these programs being spun up out of the Manhattan Project, out of the Atomic Energy Commission, out of probably initially the executive branch and the National Security Council. But The way I really like to look at UFO legacy programs, programs to retrieve, store, exploit and derive technical vehicles of unknown origin is simplistic terms like a pyramid. The head of the pyramid is the puller of the strings. That's probably a name we don't know, or it's probably somebody like the late Dick Cheney. I think that that's probably highly accurate. That, what did Walter Kern say?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  That Dave Grush told him that Dick Cheney was the head of the UFO pyramid for quite a while. That's highly likely, probably true.

• 7:04Speaker 04

  The closest person we got that I was aware of was unfortunately now deceased Vice President Dick Cheney. Darth Vader himself, not shocking that he was involved in this. And essentially, when he left in 2009, that was the last time that these activities really had central leadership.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Now, below that, there seems to be UFO legacy program administrators. These administrators are, likely seem to stem from the big six intelligence agencies, not big five. The National Security Agency, NSA, DIA, CIA, NRO, and NGA. There's not five, there's six. There's the NRO, the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office, which was established in 1969 and still has not been disclosed to this day. So, directorates within those intelligence agencies, for example, the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology seems to be a legacy program administrator. And then conversely, on the same side, other side of that coin, DOD agencies.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  You know, this could be the Edwards 412 Test Wing, this could be Army Test and Evaluation Command, this could be the Office of Naval Intelligence, the Office of Naval Research. And so those seem to be the UFO legacy program administrators. Now, in most of discussion about legacy programs, and this is kind of perpetuated in most mainstream discussion of the topic, it's, okay, the United States government, DOD, and intelligence community, and then contractors, you know, the Lockheed Martin, the Northrop Grumman's, the Batel Memorial Institutes. I think that's incorrect, and I think that's very incorrect. I think there's an intermediary step between that. And this is below the legacy program admins and above the defense industrial base contractors.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  The prime contractors and that is people people who watch my channel will probably laugh at me saying this because I talk about it nonstop. But FFRDC federally funded research and development centers. These are government owned contractor operated institutions that are subject matter experts for all sorts of of programs that the United States government, DOD and IC can't handle themselves. So FFRDC's examples here would be the MITRE Corporation, numerous institutions run by the Tel Memorial Institute.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, Oak Ridge, Department of Energy, National Nuclear Security Administration, National Labs. The reason why FFRDCs I think are higher on the totem pole, if so to speak, than than contractors is because FFRDCs are inherently government owned contractor operated. So these institutions can serve as subject matter experts for exotic technology programs. But elements of the Department of Defense or Intelligence Community can still maintain access control over materials, information, personnel, et cetera. So the FFRDC can serve as an R and D expert and subject matter expert and be a program admin for the defense industrial based contractors.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  So that's how the USG, United States government and its elements of legacy programs can still retain control over these programs. You know, people talk about, oh, the programs have run away in in Lockheed Martin and Northrop Crummon. I don't think that's correct. People will say that these programs have no oversight. No, I think there's a very structured oversight to these programs. It's just not traditional oversight channels. And then at the bottom of this pyramid is the defense industrial base prime contractors, the Lockheed Martins, the Northrop Crummans and what Northrop ate up, BDM, TRW, Teledyne Ryan. Raytheon, Raytheon, especially with the US Army and so forth. The mortar that holds this pyramid together would be the defense industrial base and funding mechanisms.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  This would be stuff like major range and test facility bases or MRTFBs, which are basically large DOD ranges across the continental United States. I believe there are 26 such agencies. They are spread across the US Army, US Navy, US Air Force and Defense, Defense Agency. Examples here include. The Nevada Test and Training Range, you know, that houses Area 51, that houses allegedly S4, that houses the Tonopah Test Range, all sorts of weird little sandia run sites, the numbered areas. This includes the Utah Test and Training Range, the West Desert Test Center, both of those are situated on Dugway Proving Ground, Edwards 412 Test Wing out of Edwards Air Force Base,

• 11:25Speaker 01

  China Lake, Patuxent River, and so forth. And funding mechanisms, I think the best way to look at this is what David Grush has spoken about. And this would essentially be misappropriation of funds, right? IRAD, Independent Research and Development, which is a very creative system that defense industrial-based contractors can take upon projects that they consider to be in the interest of national security and build the DOD for it. This includes carryover funds, which basically budget leftover at the end of a fiscal year that's not reported, that's then utilized by the agency. And we could talk about this more, but in 1994, 1995, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which runs America's spy satellites, IMINT and SIGINT primarily, that David Grush

• 12:08Speaker 01

  worked for, as well as the NGA, got busted in huge trouble. They underwent a Senate and GAO audit for enormous misappropriation of funds, specifically carryover funds, back in 1994, 1995, in the realm of $3.2 billion or so. And remember, the NRO was only declassified in 1992. This could also be overcharging of parts. There's a really interesting example of this back in the 80s and 90s of the Navy. It'd be things like, it'd be things like ashtrays on military planes that were overcharged by thousands of dollars, profit margins of like 60 to 80% on submarines, socket wrenches

• 12:49Speaker 01

  for fighter jets priced like 15,000% over what they should be worth and so forth. And then finally, you know, if we're thinking about this pyramid as like the old Egyptian pyramids, the pyramids were once encased in limestone, right? To protect the pyramids from the elements and so forth. Well, that limestone casing for this UFO Legacy Program Pyramid, this would be program protection strategies. This would be. The DARPA Defense Advanced Research Project Agency Security and Intelligence Directorate, SID, which is responsible for program protection for some of the United States' most classified special access programs. DARPA said this is the boogeyman. This would also be Department of Energy Intelligence, Department of Energy Office of

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Intelligence and Counterintelligence, OICI. And yes, the DOE has its own intelligence agency. This would be black-budget program structure like SAPs, Special Access Programs, USAPs, Unacknowledged Special Access Programs, or in the intelligence community, CAPS, Controlled Access Program, carve-out contracts with defense industrial prime contractors. Further examples of program protection strategy would be complex PSYOPS, disinformation campaigns, National Security Council programs, Sean Kirkpatrick, Arrow, Rick Doty, stuff like that. So, and like, I think that took like 10 minutes, but in a super broad term, that is how I view the structure of legacy programs, a very complex pyramid. And again, it's probably far more complex than we can even begin to understand, but that is how I look and start to break down the structure of the programs.

• 14:19Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think a lot of people are probably thinking with complexity, you get, you end up with leaks and you end up with like coordination issues. And I think that speaks to, and then, you know, my response to that with a lot of people is like, well, there have been a ton of leaks.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Numerous.

• 14:34Jesse Michels?

  And you have people like Stephen Greer, and in some ways, to me, you're like the cooler heir to Stephen Greer, where you're like a better place, I think, for a lot of these whistleblowers to go and get their stories out. And, I mean, all this stuff is hidden in plain sight.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:52Jesse Michels?

  It's all, it's all out there. You know, I've broken people on my show, you've broken a lot of people, and, you know, these aren't just campfire stories. Like, they really add up, and in aggregate, you have to like slap, you know, pretty high confidence level, especially when they, all the details totally comport.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, as far as leaks go, there are just numerous, including

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Credited incredible individuals. You know, we talked about the Edwards 412th test wing back there as a major range and test facility base, kind of like the mortar that sticks together these legacy programs. Well, I'm familiar with a ex Air Force Lieutenant Colonel out there who claims to have run a program that was focused on testing alien reproduction vehicles and derivative technology. This guy was an electronics warfare group to test, uh, group director. He claimed to serve as the intermediary between, um, uh, test pilots on the ARV and contractors and scientists and so forth.

• 15:46Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And this was at Edwards?

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:48Jesse Michels?

  412th Test Division.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  412th Test Wing, yeah.

• 15:51Jesse Michels?

  Test Wing.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  The Edwards 412th Test Wing also operates, they're also the manned people at Area 51.

• 15:58Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Okay, so the Edwards 412th Test Wing also has a big presence at the NTR Nevada Test and Training Range and the Tonopah Test Range.

• 16:06Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And so, and so this, this Lieutenant Colonel from the Air Force, what is he saying about like the test? So for, for the audience, you know, if you're not aware, ARV is Alien Reproduction Vehicle, which is basically a reverse engineered UFO, maybe with some, you know, human tech slapped on to make it workable. Um, and so what is he saying about these ARVs? How, are they, are they similar to the Mark McCandlish story where it looks like human kind of older tech retrofitted on super advanced alien tech or what is it?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  It seems like a more advanced platform. This guy has gone pretty quiet because I think he was, was threatened like many people are in this topic, but his testimony, uh, mainly takes place between 2000, 1998, when the Nevada Test and Training Range was renamed from the 98th Range Wing, uh, and about 2007, 2008. So these were many times triangular airframes, uh, saucer shaped airframes. Nothing too specific about that, but that's very interesting. The subject of alien reproduction vehicles, I've started to transition more to the usage of the term derivative technology.

• 17:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Uh, because I think that ARV isn't the end all be all of what we're trying to do with, um, and exploit from, from exotic non-human technologies. I think, I think there are instances, instances in which even just simple technologies are plucked off of exotic vehicles and tried to be adapted to, you know, prosaic US airframes.

• 17:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the classic example I like kind of run into and I go back and forth on it is like, I think Townsend Brown figured out like, you know, real anti-gravity or whatever in the human kind of terrestrial context with these kind of capacitor experiments. But the thing he used to love to use was bismuth because it was a high K dielectric. So it created more thrust. And then Gary Nolan from Jacques Vallée has these magnesium bismuth parts that he thinks came from Roswell. And so you have what looks, what appears to be something from kind of, you know, otherworldly or, you know, NHI, you know, alien provenance.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:13Jesse Michels?

  Actually helping in like an anti-gravity experiment that we know was conducted, you know, in multiple contexts in the 1950s. So it's really crazy.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  I think one of the big ones, one of the biggest sought after capabilities that has probably been harnessed is electro-optic cloaking, signature management for US airframes. I think to Dylan Borland, and he's talking about the triangle he saw over Langley. You remember that he's talking about how in the exterior of this triangle, there seemed to be this lava-esque flow.

• 18:41Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 18:42Speaker 05

  The craft itself was this black metallic flake paint, but on top of the craft was this gold lava plasma, some type of fluid going over and around the craft. I'm under this for about two to three minutes. And then the center light flashes two to three times, no sound, immediately shoots up to commercial jet level minimum, in my opinion. And I immediately feel static electricity all over my body. And then I smell the smell of after a thunderstorm or lightning storm, that really strong summer thunderstorm smell gets up to flight level. I'm trying to get my phone reset and I can only see the center light at this point. If I didn't actually see it take off, I would have thought it was a star.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  And it seemed like the triangle appeared around a light, almost like it was using signature management capabilities. Now Dylan Borland, he said that, I think he inferred he doesn't think the vehicle was human, but. Because of what he learned after, after having some exposure into legacy programs. I still maintain that triangles are likely human airframes, at least most of them. And electro-optic cloaking is a very sought-after capability. There have been instances in the early 2000s in which specifically the army was interested in adapting electro-optic cloaking to next-generation combat vehicle. Think of an M1 Abrams tank with a cloaking device on it. But that makes sense, right?

• 20:04Jesse Michels?

  What makes you think the electro-optic cloaking came from non-human technology?

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Witness testimony.

• 20:09Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Witness testimony. But that makes-

• 20:12Jesse Michels?

  Which witness testimony?

• 20:16Speaker 06

  It's me, the-

• 20:19Speaker 06

  We don't need the jingle twice. Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 20:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app.

• 20:37Speaker 06

  Fine. No one deals more deals than- Please stop. Touche. Priceline.

• 20:46Speaker 07

  When the world gets you down-

• 20:47Speaker 08

  No!

• 20:48Speaker 07

  Escape to Pluto TV.

• 20:49Speaker 08

  This is objectively fantastic.

• 20:51Speaker 07

  Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free. Schwing! Even our news is uplifting.

• 20:57Speaker 06

  You stay classy, San Diego.

• 20:59Speaker 07

  Watch School of Rock, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more. The best things on TV really are free. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  He doesn't want to be spoken of.

• 21:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. But like, can he speak high level to his?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, very high level. Somebody that I would trust with my life.

• 21:24Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  But that makes sense, right? Like, what would be a sought-after capability if some of these? UFOs exhibit, you know, some of the five or six observables, including low observability and some of these employ electro-optic cloaking. That'd be a very sought-after capability. I mean, what could be more valuable than our aerial platforms or our intelligence surveillance reconnaissance platforms, ISR airframes, that can literally go invisible and gather intelligence 100 feet away from a target over denied airspace?

• 21:53Jesse Michels?

  Well, what does this witness say anything that you can relay as far as how exactly, you know, NHI derived?

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Oh, he didn't, no, he doesn't know. There was just, there's vehicles that employed cloaking systems that there were facets of the Army that was trying to adapt this to US vehicles. So that's, that's kind of one of the reasons I started to use derivative technology. I love the Mark McCandless story, which I do believe that is a legitimate story of the flux liner and basically a copycat vehicle. Basically, you know, the sports model that Bob talks about being basically an extraterrestrial vehicle we're trying to figure out and drive. So I like using the term extrater, I mean, sorry, derivative technology. Cause I don't think in, in every single case, every single facet of legacy program is specifically trying to create ARV or just create copycat vehicles. I think there are times where technologies are bridged or adapted to US airframes.

• 22:44Jesse Michels?

  And you think there is a kind of majestic 12 equivalent today? So the majestic 12 is this, you know, elite military intelligence scientific unit created, you know, under Truman and Eisenhower. Do you think that that exists today? And do you think like, you mentioned Dick Cheney, so Walter Kern is actually a buddy of mine and, and, you know, also knows David Grush. And he came out and he was like, I expected the head of the UFO legacy program to be like a Templar in Europe or something.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  A knight of Malta.

• 23:12Jesse Michels?

  A knight of Malta, but in fact, or Rosicrucian, whatever. But in fact, it was just Dick Cheney, you know, all along. Is, um, so like, do you think there's a majestic 12? Do you think somebody like a Dick Cheney was in the modern day equivalent of the majestic 12?

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think Dick Cheney absolutely was. I mean, he's passed now. I think he was the, the head of some facets of UFO programs for a while. As far as majestic 12, it's so complicated with all the documents. I'm of the mind, a group called Madge 12 did certainly exist. And then with the majestic documents, I think there's some legitimate documents, some passage material documents, and then some obvious hoaxes.

• 23:48Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  I'm particularly fond of the Eisenhower briefing document. You know, the document that apparently briefed presidential incumbent Dwight D. Eisenhower upon the Maj. 12's creation. There's interesting details that line up with James V. Forrestal meeting with President Truman at the same time that the MJ 12 was allegedly set up. Same with Walter B. Smith being read into the MJ 12 after James Forrestal was thrown out of a naval hospital window. And apparently Walter B. Smith taking his replacement in Maj. 12 and actual meetings with Truman on that exact date. As well as the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit documents that were, I think, released in 1994, 1995 to Tim Cooper from a pseudonym, Thomas Cantwell.

• 24:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Those are interesting. The IPU doc specifically, the IPU was kind of discovered through FOIA requests in 1986, 1987 by researchers such as William Steinman. According to FOIA, IPU, the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit was an in-house Army unit, only existing through institutional memory. There are people like Kevin Randle that kind of proposed some debunk's, like the IPU was like an internal processing unit for the mailroom of the Army.

• 24:58Jesse Michels?

  Do you know who Steinman FOIA'd? Like which government agency let out that the IPU existed?

• 25:04Speaker 01

  It was Army Counterintelligence.

• 25:05Jesse Michels?

  Army CIC, okay. I mean, that's pretty interesting.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:09Jesse Michels?

  They're saying this thing exists, but it only exists in institutional memory. All the records were wiped.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Because apparently this was held under like a J-2 or something at the time.

• 25:18Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  What's interesting, I kind of recently went through the IPU docs specifically related to Sandia, because we can, we should and can talk specifically probably about what institutions, what people, what places are probably engaged in the programs. But the IPU doc, the field report or the IPU report that stated like July 1947, and this basically details allegedly how the Roswell Retrieval Incident went down. And the document talks about a special engineering detachment, a SED, which was like a Manhattan Project Engineering Detachment and stuff, being sent out to the Roswell wreckage led by one Colonel Housbrook of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, AFSWP, basically to attend to the wreckage and so forth. The AFSWP is very interesting.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  It was, it was. Started one half by James Forstall and by another individual. The AFSWP has gone through a series of evolutions and today is known as the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, or DITRA. DITRA is what Dylan Borland had just said on the Weaponized Podcast housed old Atomic Energy Commission records that stated that UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin. The AFSWP was established in 1947 at Sandia Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, right at the same time when Los Alamos Z Division, which was kind of their weapon ordinance arm, established operations at Sandia Base. So, Sandia National Lab, which is a Department of Energy, NNSA National Lab, can kind of trace their roots back to Los Alamos Z Division at Sandia Base.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  So it's interesting that this AFSWP and Sandia kind of started and evolved around the same time. So the IPU docs are a really interesting thing that I think deserve a lot of attention from the Majestic documents. That's fascinating. Doesn't Timothy Cooper though specifically doubt like the Majestic 12 stuff most? Didn't he say like, I think these documents are bullshit? Yeah, yeah, and a lot of people do. And of course, how could you not when you have guys like Rick Doty and Bill Moore kind of involved when at a MUFON conference, Bill Moore basically says, hey, I was instructed to sow disinformation into the community. That's why, like, if you're going to talk about the Majestic documents, it can never be, hey, this is evidence or kind of verification for a claim I'm exploring or something. It should be, the Majestic documents should be used as an auxiliary.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  If you're talking about a subject and already have a strong thesis or strong argument, be like, hey, well, this is pretty interesting. These Majestic documents talk about this. But you can't rely on it too heavy because who knows, there's probably a lot of passive material like the Psalm 101. Yeah. That Tim Phillips and Arrow have been using behind the scenes to talk about. Yeah. You know that? No, I didn't. Tim Phillips went on the Event Horizon podcast and talked about that Arrow found. You know, tell the audience who Tim Phillips is. Oh, Tim Phillips is the very disgraced ex-deputy director of Arrow. After Sean Kirkpatrick turned coat and ran to Oak Ridge National Laboratories, ORNL, which is another DOE, NNSA, National Laboratory, which weirdly deleted his job posting.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Tim Phillips took over as at Arrow, started immediately lashing out to Dave Grush on LinkedIn. Do you remember that? And then. He was let go from Arrow for being a bit of a wild card, but he started doing podcasts around similar to what Sean Kirkpatrick did and would tell specifically like the Event Horizon podcast during his tenure at Arrow. They found like this, this manual which talks about like packaging and unpackaging debris and craft and bodies from an extraterrestrial vehicle crash and how this thing was like chock full of diagrams and all this stuff. And then he would kind of change his story, whether he was on air or off air, details of this document. Of course, this is the Psalm 101 and off air to various people, Sean Kirkpatrick made similar comments about, about the document.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  So it's weird that Arrow specifically is, is pushing that.

• 29:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, it is weird, but you find all these sort of crazy connections with Kirkpatrick and his past and the DOE.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 29:08Jesse Michels?

  It's just kind of crazy. Okay. So I want to rehash this for the audience because we just threw out a lot of names and acronyms. So you have somebody like Dick Cheney, maybe at the top. And then you have these six different kind of high up in intelligence organizations.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  And DOD stuff.

• 29:24Jesse Michels?

  And DOD stuff.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So you have DOD plus intelligence organizations. And then below that you have the FFRDCs and then below that you have the contractors.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Defense industrial base.

• 29:35Jesse Michels?

  And so it's like when Jake Barber comes out and he says, I'm the fingertips or whatever, like it's because he's working at, you know, he says, you know, you could pick your two. And I think Danny Sheehan accused him of being at Northrop. So maybe we could go with whatever Sheehan says.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  I'm surprised he said that.

• 29:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievers?

• 29:58Speaker 09

  Um, look, man, if you took two guesses, you'd get both of them right on the first try.

• 30:05Jesse Michels?

  There you go. But like he's, Barber is doing kind of the, the just tip of the spear, you know, job and he's not given the full context. And then the FFRDCs have a little bit more context, some insulation as far as federal funding. And then above that, the intelligence organizations and then above that, you have like, what cabinet level people like Dick Cheney? Like, do you have a sense of like who the equivalent of Dick Cheney is now?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  I don't know, but if I had to guess, it'd be somebody with a naval background and an intelligence community background.

• 30:36Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  It seems like naval programs have been tip of the spear for a long time and deal with a lot of really sensitive stuff because they also deal with the subject of USO.

• 30:45Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  And that sort of transmedial capability to travel underwater, undetected, and their hidden intelligence agency, the NRO, seems very high priority. So I would imagine this is somebody with a joint naval and intelligence community background.

• 30:58Jesse Michels?

  Makes sense. Yeah, Harold Malmgren kept emphasizing that the Office of Naval Intelligence knew way more than meets the eye. Test details are controlled by naval intelligence. It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s. And if that was like, you know, at his time, you know, 60s and 70s. You would think that there would be this through line between then and now. You obviously have, you know, rumors of Bobby Ray Enman.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:25Jesse Michels?

  You know, being sort of involved, you know, with this stuff as well. And so, you know, maybe he would be somebody at the Cheney level.

• 31:31Speaker 10

  Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be, uh, become available for technological research outside of the military circles? Again, I honestly don't know. Uh, 10 years ago, the answer would have been no. Whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it, is a possibility.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Let's actually go through a couple of those, like below Cheney, kind of at the tip of the spear for the administrator level.

• 32:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I think a lot of individuals who have spearheaded or are spearheading or have high level exposure to UFO legacy programs.

• 32:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Have extensive backgrounds in the NRO. So I have a couple of documents here. Maybe we can go through a couple of these.

• 32:18Jesse Michels?

  Let's do it.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  These are just kind of people that I'd love to talk about.

• 32:22Jesse Michels?

  Cool.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  So for the NRO, you have.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Maybe we could start with Bobby Ray Inman, right? Yeah. Bobby Ray Inman, when he spoke to Bob Eschler in 1989, 1988, he referred NASA mission specialist Bob Eschler to Sumner Shapiro, a director of naval intelligence, as well as R. Everett or R. Evans Heineman. His naming convention's a little weird. Heineman was the NRO Program B Director from 1982 to 1989. NRO Program B was essentially a consolidation of reconnaissance activities between the NRO and CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology. And the ground element of NRO Program B was established at Pine Gap, Australia. I know Pine Gap is super spooky, but... They call it Australia's Area 51. Right, right. And Bobby Ray Inman basically said to Eschler,

• 33:11Speaker 01

  "If you want to know about crash retrieval programs and recovered technical vehicles, go talk to Heineman." Other interesting people with high-level connections to the NRO include Donald Kerr. Donald Kerr was mentioned in Oki Shannon's 1985 Advanced Theoretical Physics Working Group documents. This was a physics group held at BDM International in 1985 at their McLean facility. Super, super, super interesting thing that apparently like John Alexander spoke at. Stubblebine was involved with all this stuff. I'll put a... Yeah, in Oki Shannon's notes, it's like, "Ask Don Kerr for funding" when talking about like UFO reverse engineering programs. Whoa. Donald Kerr was, of course, high-level position in the NRO.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  He was Director of EGNG. He was Director of Los Alamos, Director of SAIC, Deputy Director of the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology. So there's this specific weird... There's this really specific weird kind of pairing relationship between the NRO and CIA DS&T. Yeah. And with that CIA DS&T, back in 2003, the CIA Directorate of Science and Technology, which...

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Maybe we'll describe directorates a little bit. So I said the NRO had Program B at Pine Gap. Early days of the NRO, it had Program A, B, C, and D at a time in the 90s or so. This was reorganized into directorates, just kind of subgroups under the NRO, under the CIA. So I think a lot of UFO legacy programs are stuffed within these directorates. And to speak about the NRO and the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology, there's a lot of really weird, really weird crossovers there. So I think it's important to look at individuals with connections to NRO, CIA, DS&T. Yep. Two high-level, almost cabinet positions within the United States government and the MITRE Corporation, which is an FFRDC. Yep.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  There's a very tangled web between NRO, DS&T, MITRE, and then two offices within the United States government I'd like to talk about a little bit. This would be the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, OSUDANS. This has previously gone through numerous naming conventions as the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition, renamed into the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, then renamed to the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics, finally to its naming convention today for Acquisition and Sustainment. The AUSTAT, Acquisition and Technology, is the office kind of named in the Wilson Davis

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Notes as holding kind of records to special carve-out, holdover programs that housed kind of direct access to legacy programs that Flag Officer Thomas Wilson allegedly started to look through where he found the Watch Committee, high-level gatekeepers for UFO legacy programs. One of the individuals he spoke about, who was kind of Director of the AUSTAT at that time and permanent SAPOC, Special Access Program Oversight Committee member, was Mr. Paul Kaminsky.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Paul Kaminsky is an individual that I think would be interesting to look at a little more in regards to UFO legacy programs. He was, of course, in the AUSTAT, and he was, of course, on the Board of Trustee for the MITRE Corporation now. And so that the AUSTAT that's named all throughout the Wilson Davis Notes. That is a Department of Defense position. Its counter position in the intelligence community is called the DDNI ATNF, the Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition, Technology and Facilities. So the AUSTAT are now, noticed today, under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, and this DDNI are two sides of the same coin. These two offices, according to the GAO,

• 36:59Speaker 01

  they, um, they have oversight over NRO program acquisitions. Okay?

• 37:05Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  So that DDNI ATNF is, is rather interesting. On one hand, you have Paul Kaminsky, who was AUSTAT and MITRE. On the other hand, you have somebody like Don Meyerick's right here, who is MITRE and DDNI ATNF with a long agency background, long, very weird agency background.

• 37:27Jesse Michels?

  Former Deputy Director of the CIA for Science and Technology. And we know a couple of, you know, connections there is Glenn Gaffney, obviously Director of Science and Technology for the CIA.

• 37:36Speaker 11

  Are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAP SAP Federation? I have a name for you. Go ahead. Glenn Gaffney, CIA. Glenn Gaffney, CIA.

• 37:49Jesse Michels?

  Now you have all this congressional testimony that he specifically, you know, blocked this, uh, you know, moving of exotic, you know, non-human origin technology that was under lockheed, that was supposed to go to Bigelow Aerospace in 2008. And Glenn Gaffney apparently blocked this.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Two separate times, 2008, 2010.

• 38:09Jesse Michels?

  Crazy.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  And you can thank the, the Aero Historical Report, Volume One, for talking that out. 2008, it seems there was a first attempt that was blocked by James Clapper.

• 38:16Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  The second event was the Kona Blue failed P S A P R.

• 38:19Jesse Michels?

  So James Clapper blocked, uh?

• 38:21Speaker 01

  That's what the Aero Historical Report, Volume One says.

• 38:23Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's interesting, because isn't James Clapper in the Age of Disclosure movie? So what's up with that?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 38:28Jesse Michels?

  Why is he playing both sides?

• 38:29Speaker 04

  General Clapper, the former DNI in the documentary. I certainly applaud him for at least speaking out in general. He goes on, I believe, I've only seen clips of Age of Disclosure, not the whole thing, where there was a program when he was the Director of National Intelligence, where they were tracking these vehicles over Area 51, of course, the famed classified test location. And I'm a little bit disappointed as a fellow Air Force officer and certainly General Clapper rose to the ranks as three-star general, that's all he said in the documentary, that that was a program he was aware of. In fact, without being inappropriate, I will say that General Clapper was well aware of the crash retrieval issue, managed the crash

• 39:14Speaker 04

  retrieval issue, and when he was the DNI, USDI, DIA Director, he placed people in critical roles to manage this issue, both publicly and, I'll just say, non-publicly as well. And I'll allow the audience to still what I'm saying at the risk of being inappropriate or going too far with my discussion.

• 39:36Speaker 12

  The Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, calls me, "Mike, I need you to go through all of it. I need the team to go through all of NSA's holding all of its files, and I need everything that you have on UFOs." And I'm like, "What, sir? You want me to do a review of our databases on UFOs?"

• 39:53Speaker 01

  You see, the CIA DSNT, according to Kona Blue, has had direct involvement in blocking UFO legacy programs. Recall the excellent reporting of Christopher Sharp, a UK journalist? Yes. He broke a great story about the CIA's Office of Global Access, Yes. which was created under the DSNT in the year 2003. Yeah. That is basically tasked with foreign UFO crash retrievals. This is a logistics agency, this is a combat support agency. So, you know, let's just say in Honduras, an egg-shaped craft goes down. The CIA OGA would be responsible for getting, you know, JSOC Tier 1 adjacent assets, and probably the Department of Energy Nuclear Emergency Support Team and other assets down to retrieve the craft.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Do you know the first Director of OGA, the Office of Global Access? That Doug Wolfe? This is Doug Wolfe. Do you know Doug Wolfe additionally spent...

• 40:47Speaker 01

  16 years in the NRO. Executive, he was the executive assistant to the director of the National Reconnaissance Office.

• 40:53Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  He was indeed CIA DS and T Deputy Director. He indeed started the OGA.

• 40:57Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  And indeed, he was the DDNI AT&F. The Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition Technology and Facilities.

• 41:04Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Has direct oversight over NRO acquisitions.

• 41:06Jesse Michels?

  Crazy.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  There's, there's, there's a ton of people like that. There's an individual named Mark Moynihan. If you, if you find him on LinkedIn, he's total spook of spooks. This guy, uh, DDNI AT&F, this guy CIA OGA, CIA, CIA DS and T NRO. So there seems to be this really interesting relationship with people who have been labeled as UFO Legacy Program gatekeepers.

• 41:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  And one of those gatekeeping offices, the DS and T and the NRO.

• 41:31Jesse Michels?

  It seems like this revolving door old boys' club where you go from the DS and T of the CIA to, you know, MITRE Corporation or, you know, some other federally funded research and development. You go to RAND or whatever.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:44Jesse Michels?

  Or you go to the NRO or, you know.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  I can't stress this enough about the importance of MITRE.

• 41:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  The DOE National Labs, you know, Sandia, Oak Ridge.

• 41:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, those are critical, but the importance of MITRE, MITRE is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject.

• 41:59Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think that is?

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Because they deal with naval programs.

• 42:02Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Subject of USO.

• 42:04Jesse Michels?

  And what's their role with respect to the Navy? Is it like tech protection or is it?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Probably everything.

• 42:10Jesse Michels?

  Uh, UFO related stuff or?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Indussec, industrial security to SAP management to

• 42:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Monitoring large craft under the water to material exploitation, to briefing oversight channels that exist.

• 42:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  To doing all sorts of stuff. The, the, the MITRE pipeline of people who have worked for MITRE, as you can see, Paul Kaminsky, uh, Don Meyerix and Donald Kerr, numerous people who have allegedly been associated with UFO Legacy Programs end up at MITRE.

• 42:42Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's funny. I know them in the context of like, holding these anti-gravity conferences. Yeah. And like, I think Ning Li spoke at one in the early 2000s. She was this famous Chinese-American, you know, anti-gravity researcher at University of Alabama Huntsville. She claimed to make all these breakthroughs in like, weight reduction. Yeah. Above a spinning superconductors. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. And, um, or I think it's weight reduction, which is a little distinct from mass reduction. You're right, you're right, yeah. Um, but, but yes, same sort of ridiculously crazy concept if you can do it, you know? Yeah. And, and, um, and she's saying all this stuff about gravitons and, you know, sort of these, you know, you know, uh, alternating current rotating superconductors. She's saying she wants to create free energy for the world. She's citing Hal Putoff and talking about electrically polarizable vacuums and stuff.

• 43:28Jesse Michels?

  And then she gets a contract, I believe with the army. She gets a security clearance. And then nobody ever really hears from her again. She gets hit by a car. It's sort of really weird. But she was seen last publicly speaking at this MITRE Corporation conference about anti-gravity.

• 43:45Speaker 13

  Yeah, I, I'm a MITRE, and I did sit down and I interviewed her. And this was at a conference in 2003, just outside of Washington DC, uh, run by them, or overseen by the MITRE Corporation. And it was looking at, I think, high-frequency gravitational waves. And, um, you know, she, she was an interesting character because she had been involved in some of those NASA, uh, experiments I mentioned earlier about, um, rotating superconductors and weight loss experiments. And, um, she, she chaired one of the sessions. I talked to her afterwards about it all.

• 44:27Speaker 13

  She had this view that this was science and technology that should be for the people. It should be, you know, very, um, philanthropic in its, you know, nature and outcomes. And then-

• 44:40Speaker 13

  I don't know sort of how soon after that it was that she sort of went off grid. It was certainly probably about within a, within a year that she just disappeared and no one knew what had happened to her.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  That's like, just recently, there was a slide deck, not really leaked, but kind of rediscovered about Eric Davis doing a teleportation study for the Miter Corporation. Made it back to 2019.

• 44:59Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. And so when, cause you have people online like Ashton Forbes who like talk a lot about teleportation. Like he's really sure that like you could teleport like a, a macro scale human being or something. When I've spoken to Eric Davis, he seems to be, you know, like talking about like quantum teleportation. Saying like, that's already established science and you know, that sounds insane because the word teleportation is in it. But like, is that necessarily involved in like UFO tech or is it?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 45:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  So much of the science and physics is so far beyond me.

• 45:33Jesse Michels?

  Me too.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  As boring as it sounds, I like the money. I like the, the program names. I like the offices. Cause, cause while we're, while we're speaking about kind of these, these administrators, NRO, CIA, DS and T. And kind of their string pullers and the DDNI, ATNF and AusDAS are now O U S D A and S. You talked about Kona Blue, which was the failed prospective special access program that occurred in, in 2010. And we can actually thank Arrow for releasing that slide deck, weirdly enough. This was to be a DHS sponsored use app, unacknowledged special access program for Lockheed Martin to divulge from craft materials to the OSAT program. And, and big low advanced aerospace space studies pass.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  And these materials were supposed to be bits and pieces of craft, craft hall, craft bulkhead. I myself have heard this involved the Kingman wreckage from the 1953 Kingman, Arizona crash. And that Lockheed Martin Vice President Jim Ryder, James Ryder was the one who, who wanted to get rid of these materials for, for who knows. And conventionally Glenn Gaffney, CIA DS and T Deputy Director was the one who put the kibosh and, and killed this. Our mutual friend, Rob Jones, has done some amazing work. He also offers in the name, Robert Cardillo, who was actually DDNI and head of the NGA, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. And while I think Robert Cardillo was absolutely involved and people should go look up Robert Cardillo if they're unfamiliar with him.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I think this was a DS and T operation specifically Glenn Gaffney to put the kibosh on this. So.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  In my Lockheed project while looking into Kona Blue, I kind of came across that there may have been a conflict of interest within Lockheed Martin. Maybe an insider in Lockheed who helped put the kibosh on the program. This is an individual, and I'll pass you this in a second, named Mary Kay Sturtavant. This is a name that was never really floated around. I made a tweet about this, begging Chris Mellon to give some information on her, to which he has declined in both a public outreach on Twitter and private messages. I have not heard from him.

• 47:40Jesse Michels?

  What did he say?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  I know, just nothing.

• 47:42Jesse Michels?

  Oh, nothing, okay, no response.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  So, Sturtavant here has a really weird history. She worked at the BDM Corporation. In 1985, she joined the agency, when I say agency, I mean CIA for Counterintelligence, Tech Protection, all that stuff. She kind of went, she worked in joint CIA Director of Operations and CIA Director of Science and Technology Programs. She was a very high-level deputy director position in the NRO. And then in two, she also served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, where she and Chris Mellon actually worked together for numerous years. Not only did they work together, but they attended many of the same meetings. Not only did they attend many of the same meetings, but over certain periods and quarters, they have the exact same per diem, which implies that they traveled together, they ate

• 48:28Speaker 01

  together, they attended the same meetings together on the same cars, the same craft. So I would wager these two have a very, they know each other quite well. She was also served as a special advisor to the president under George W. Bush. And in 2006, she joined Lockheed Martin as the vice president for Government Affairs from 2006 to 2021, as well as VP for Intelligence Joint and Science and Technology Programs. So I think there may have been a conflict of interest here within Lockheed Martin. Once your agency, your agency for life, right? If you're in the CIA, you're never out of the CIA, especially the Director of Science and Technology. So I think there's a very strong argument that can be made that due to her obligations

• 49:09Speaker 01

  and allegiance to the CIA DS&T, she had to help put the kibosh on this technology transfer. And also-

• 49:15Jesse Michels?

  You think of, if she knew Mellon, I mean, you think of Mellon also as very pro, you know, kind of UFO stuff, at least now.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  What I would say to Christopher Mellon, if he's watching this, because I've asked him numerous times, ask her again, Mr. Mellon, because I'm sure this time she'll remember.

• 49:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay, yeah, there you go.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  And I'm sure this time she'll remember.

• 49:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  And here is Mary Sturtavant.

• 49:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, you often do see people kind of playing both sides of the issue as well.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:44Jesse Michels?

  Like, you hear about, you know, Mike Turner, who put the kibosh on, you know, this last, or UAPDA, not this last one, but the one before it.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Right, 2020 fiscal year 2024, I believe.

• 49:55Jesse Michels?

  That's right. And, you know, you hear that, like, you know, the people, you know, the largest donors to his campaign are like, you know, Raytheon, Lockheed, Boeing, whatever. But then simultaneously, you have Lockheed clearly trying to get a bunch of information out through efforts like, you know, you know, they spent a lot of time with Tom DeLonge and TTSA and that sort of thing, secret machines. And so it seems like they do want some disclosure to occur. Obviously, when it comes to eminent domain clauses in the UAPDA that involve taking their material and, you know, making it kind of, you know, congressional civilian oversight, you know, you know, they're obviously not going to be happy about that. But it is interesting how they're trying to sort of manage the process.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems like there's numerous factions competing for disclosure. One of the most obvious factions is TTSA, which involves the whole OSAP crew, Eric Davis, Hal Putoff, Lou Elizondo, Chris Mellon, all these guys. Their carefully managed disclosure seems to be about the revelations of the existence of non-human intelligence and technical vehicles, and that there's programs to recover these, but no discussion of derivation of technologies, possibly for national security concerns, or whatever they want to say. And they really like to pose the whole NHI or super national security threat narrative. The whole TTSA saga is very weird. It seems like in 2011, Tom DeLonge was plucked. This could have been an old BASS, Big Low Advanced Aerospace Space Studies project.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  You know, they had some of their documents under OSAP kind of not leaked, but discovered. And there was discussion of a project forum within those, which was to basically, in California, take, you know, celebrities, media personalities, popular people, to start talking about the UFO subject. And I think that likely Tom DeLonge and TTSA was a holdover project forum spearheaded by Lou Elizondo under direction of something like the National Security Council. To bring forth limited disclosures. TSA is wacky when you look at it. You know, Tom DeLonge had numerous, numerous high level advisors, whether it was somebody like Lou Elizondo, a whole history in counterintelligence. Guys like Steve Justice from Lockheed Martin, high level Air Force generals.

• 52:03Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  And these guys were saying, hey, you know, all of these, all of these technologies are locked up in black budgets, but we're gonna, we don't really know how to do it, but we're gonna try and make our own like light craft. We're gonna try and make our own ARVs and all that.

• 52:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  It just seems almost like a bastardization of what legacy programs had doing like in like all these guys, Steve Justice, who had worked in programs or been exposed to them had amnesia and they had to kind of start all over again in the public sector.

• 52:29Jesse Michels?

  There were, there were clearly guys involved in that who had ulterior motives. And then I do think, I think, you know, some people don't give Tom DeLonge enough credit for modern disclosure.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness, yeah.

• 52:40Jesse Michels?

  Because like so many people just wouldn't even be into the subject, I think, if it weren't for a lot of what he got out. And I do think he on his own, organically made a ton of connections, poked the bear a lot.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:52Jesse Michels?

  To the effect of a lot of these guys coming out to him and he kind of, I think, put a lot of this stuff together. And so, yeah, maybe, maybe they're, you know, ulterior motives with some of the people involved.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  But not Tom.

• 53:04Jesse Michels?

  But I don't think Tom had ulterior motives. I think he had very genuine, you know.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  He was a trailblazer.

• 53:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I also think a strong argument can be made. He was exposed to some pretty radical stuff, whether this was authorized or unauthorized disclosures. If you look at his appearance on Joe Rogan back in 2017, October of 2017, this was like the radical time that he came out and talked about TSA. There's something that really caught my eye there and I, I think a strong argument can be made. Tom DeLonge was exposed to elements of Immaculate Constellation.

• 53:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Oh, interesting.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  We know Immaculate Constellation as the USAT Matthew Brown was exposed to that began in 2017 that utilized US intelligence platforms, overhead platforms, implying NRO with spy satellites and overhead collection platforms, probably NGA and, and numerous various intelligence gathering systems to monitor both non-human craft and alien reproduction vehicles. There are plenty of interesting cases, including slowly rotating triangles over Indo-PacCom, Indo-Pacific Command, within Matthew Brown's Immaculate Constellation document, saucer shaped craft seemingly using cloud, cloud coverage as cover and all that. So, but the connection I'm trying to make and why I think a strong argument Tom DeLonge

• 54:17Speaker 01

  was exposed to Immaculate Constellation in 2017, the year IMCON was began, is if you listen closely to that Joe Rogan interview, Tom DeLonge talks about episodic visits of craft. He says that his high-level sources, in the NRO specifically, told him that scientists and eggheads had figured out ways to basically pre-predict when and where craft would appear. And thus, satellites and imagery intelligence platforms would capture these "episodic visits."

• 54:49Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  His connections to the NRO. Whilst he was at TTSA, Luis Elizondo was liaison to the NRO. He was liaison to the NRO.

• 54:58Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, I don't think a lot of people know that.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  No, that's not, that's not public knowledge. But yeah, he was liaison to the NRO.

• 55:04Jesse Michels?

  How'd you figure that out?

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Curriculum, CV.

• 55:08Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  CV.

• 55:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Liaison to the NRO. And if you look at the Immaculate Constellation documents, numerous sightings talk about how the sensor collection platform seemingly had foreknowledge of the event, almost like the system was put in place to collect data on the appearance of the UFO or ARV, but the system knew it was going to be there. It had foreknowledge. It could track the erratically moving Tic Tac or the saucer. So, I think there's a connection there with those episodic visits and the foreknowledge of craft sighting in the Immaculate Constellation documents. The timelines add up, too. I think that's something that's worthy to be explored. If you ask Luis Elizondo if he was read into Immaculate Constellation, of course, it's a USAP, so he'll have to deny that, but I think there's some interesting questions there that could be explored.

• 55:52Jesse Michels?

  That's so fascinating. I think the more you read books like Secret Machines, or like, you know, look at a lot of Tom DeLonge's, you know, old interviews and stuff, you're like, I'll often like, I'll catalog some of these things, and I'll be like, ah, well, I'm not so sure. And then I'll do my own open source research, and I'll run into something, and I'm like, damn, he was like, right about that, dude.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:11Jesse Michels?

  You know, like, he talks about, I think, the Maynard Consortium and

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, based on the Jason Committee.

• 56:17Jesse Michels?

  The Jason Committee, or it was like, I think it was like this international corporate board that oversaw the UFO issue. And it's either the Jason Committee, I think of more in the context of like tech protection via the US, like our, you know, kind of most sensitive weaponry. But I almost associate that with, you know, if you read like Jacques Vallée's Forbidden Science, he talks about like the Carlyle Group constantly

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:40Jesse Michels?

  coming up, you know, and even Ben Rich, there's a quote in the early 90s, I think with his letters between him and John Andrews, I think, of Testers Motor Corp. And he is talking about this like international governance board around the UFO issue and how it actually might need to be rested out of the international governance board and taken into American hands. And so, you know, you have a lot of things like that where you're like, you know, it seems like Tom actually was, had a lot of great info.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's such a great point because it seems like, you know, whether it's a Five Eyes retrieval program, or, you know, tech protection stuff like the Jason Committee, which was founded out of MITRE, by the way.

• 57:23Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:24Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know that.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:26Jesse Michels?

  Cool.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  So that's why I started looking at MITRE. Also, like, as a side note, when was MITRE and a lot of these FFRDCs started, like the Aerospace Corporation? 1959, 1960, that's exactly when Colonel Philip J. Corso of the Army's not Air Force's Foreign Technology Division says that technologies were being seeded into basically US defense contractors to try to adapt to improve US military MITRE connection there, probably.

• 57:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and you have, you know, I interviewed Harold Naumgren, as you know, and he was at a federally funded research and development

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, IDA.

• 57:53Jesse Michels?

  IDA. And, you know, he said, point blank, before, you know, somebody wrote this like blog post kind of takedown of him, he said, "My work at the IDA was actually a cover for what I was doing for the National Security Council and the President." And so, it was clear even back then that like you had this kind of old boys' club, the kind of Wild, Wild West cowboy intelligence agencies and FFRDCs were used as a front kind Often because his mentor at the IDA was Richard Bissell.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:24Jesse Michels?

  Richard Bissell not only was Deputy Director of Plans for the CIA later founded Area 51, basically to test the U2 spy plane, but then also, you know, you mentioned this to me last night. I had forgotten founded the NRO.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:39Jesse Michels?

  Was one of the co-founders.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  He was one of the co-directors because just like we talked about with the NRO and CIA, D S and T, the NRO was, the NRO is unique because it exists as a joint DOD IC agency. And upon its creation in 1961, after a shoot down of a U2 spy plane over denied airspace in the Soviet Union, the NRO had co-directors, one from the DOD, one from the IC.

• 58:59Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  And it's weird that the CIA seems to have a little tug of war over any lately founded US intelligence agency. Same thing with the Neuro founded in 1969. Up until 1972, there was a huge tug of war between the Navy and CIA, specifically the D S and T over who controls the Neuro. And then of course Bobby Rayenman takes over and he's, he is just agency out the wazoo. So yeah, further interesting parallels between that. Richard Bissell is an interesting person. I, I'm particularly fond of, and I think you probably are too, of Richard Bissell allegedly briefing Malamgren on otherworldly technologies as we know, our buddy Randy Anderson, Offworld Technologies Division, under the Naval Surface Warfare Center crane.

• 59:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, there's definitely seems like something might line up there. What do you think of, you know, Malamgren's testimony? Cause I did that interview and I honestly would have expected that to have been picked up by like, you know, mainstream media because you have a guy who is a presidential advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon and Ford. You could argue with his level of seniority with, you know, JFK specifically.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Jesse Michels?

  But he admitted that like, you know, he didn't deal a ton with JFK directly. He dealt, dealt more with Shriver or whatever. And then you can't really argue with his, you know, connections with the other presidents. I think he, he rose in seniority, you know, as time went on.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Jesse Michels?

  Clearly was connected at the highest levels of government to me, you know, and I've met a lot of like, I think pretty impressive people, like just pattern matched to somebody who had a map of the world in his head, was a total kind of Kissinger type, you know, maybe without the bad vibes that Kissinger had, you know, the, the, the, the desire to create destruction and manipulate. I think in some ways he was kind of like. The opposite of Kissinger and he was actually, you know, likely, I think, you know, I think he was CIA.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:48Jesse Michels?

  And, um, and I think he was likely actually appointed to, uh, kind of restrain Kissinger in many ways. Like he was kind of, he was, he was tagged with, uh, reining in Kissinger, who was seen as this kind of rogue guy. So what do you think of his testimony? Because there are some people who've, I think that's kind of this coordinated job, but like some people have come out and attacked him since, since that interview.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  I think Malamgren was likely CIA and his position at the IDA was a knock or non-official cover, which is a very common, uh, thing for agency stuff.

• 1:01:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  I hope that, I think over time that Malamgren's testimony is going to age like fine wine. I mean, I was, I was re-listening to your project with him just for one of my projects and I was particularly intrigued when he is talking about, uh, intelligence communities and how intelligence communities have essentially found a way to fund themselves. And so they don't adhere to traditional oversight channels because they basically fund themselves. This comports exactly with what I think about institutions like the NRO or other intelligence agencies and UFO legacy programs. 1994, 1995, they can use carryover funds basically to do whatever the heck they want. I also think that, I, I hope the 1962, uh, Blue Gill Triple Prime Nuclear Test starts to get revisited with what Malamgren said, of

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  course, that was a, um, was that, were those tests over Bikini Atoll? Where, where were those?

• 1:02:07Jesse Michels?

  Johnston Atoll.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:08Jesse Michels?

  This came to me. Yeah.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  I know there's been some discussion on whether that was a targeting pod or, or something that, that was knocked out by the residual EMP at the nuclear blast when Malamgren stated that, you know, Bissell briefed him on that being a UFO. I think Jeff Crookshank has done some incredible work and is still to this day, making the argument that that was a UFO recovered by the USS, I think it was Engage.

• 1:02:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  What's interesting about, about that testimony is those tests were a, um, were conducted under the.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  A evolution agency of the AFSPP, the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, which eventually became DITRA. I can't remember the agency specifically. AFSPP went through like eight or nine iterations before it became DITRA. Sorry, not eight or nine. That's an exaggeration, like four or five.

• 1:02:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But that agency did the testing?

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And Sandia supplied like the specific rocket payload for that testing and such. But what's interesting to me is when Dylan Borland talks about old Atomic Energy Commission records, talking about concluding that UFOs are extraterrestrial vehicles based upon the Atomic Energy Commission. I wonder if part of those records adhere to the AFSPP before it became DITRA.

• 1:03:18Jesse Michels?

  So fascinating.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  That crash.

• 1:03:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And the whole, I mean, so there's this guy, you know, D. Dean Johnson, who took, you know, tried to do this like takedown of Almgren. And the whole takedown was like, you know, he couldn't have held the Q clearance, which you wouldn't be able to figure out through the FBI at all if the guy was CIA. You just wouldn't. And especially if you're a nonofficial cover CIA, there's just no way. And so I think a lot of those points are sort of rendered moot. And then you could say, well, he wasn't CIA, but it's like, if you read the tea leaves on the interview, he's saying he handled the presidential daily brief. That's a CIA thing. He's saying he's best friends with Tom Farmer, who's happened to be the general counsel of the CIA. He had Paul Mellon's walking stick in the interview, and I'm holding it for half the time in the interview or whatever, because I wanted to see it. And he had it offhand,

• 1:04:05Jesse Michels?

  just in his apartment. Does it represent anything? It looks very unique. Well, he has a lot of power.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:04:43Jesse Michels?

  So Paul Mellon's the founder, one of the founders of the CIA. So like, I don't know. You gotta read the, read the kind of tea leaves on it. You know, and I kind of... I think figured that out through kind of basic research, you know, he's at Oxford, he's Yale, you know, it's like, Richard Bissell's your mentor, he's deputy director, he's number two in the entire CIA. We have Richard Bissell all over his diary.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, all over it.

• 1:05:07Jesse Michels?

  So it's like so clear to me that he was CIA. And then, I don't know, I felt like maybe it was hard for me to to break this, you know, gentlemanly oath that he had swore. He was kind of breaking it on his own, you know, he clearly was breaking it in the UFO context, but I felt weird explicitly outing him.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's saying, hey, are you CIA?

• 1:05:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. And it's the guy's like, you know, literally by the time we had put it out, he had passed away sadly. And so like, I just didn't feel like it was my place. But I did insert a little thing at the very beginning in the monologue saying, if you, if you like, if you like, watch this entire interview, you'll realize he's part of a much deeper intelligence network than meets the eye.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Jesse Michels?

  And I think that didn't maybe, a lot of people didn't process that. Clearly, Didi and Johnson didn't, but I don't know.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  The the Q clearance specifically is kind of a mute point to me. Of course, Q clearance is the DOE's equivalent of a top secret clearance. I mean, so there are some not public individuals that that I'm familiar with, one of whom specifically has claimed to have operated on a crash retrieval team, UFO crash retrieval team out of the Nevada test and training range. I've spent a lot of time

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  kind of vetting this person and studying their claims. And I have to say, I do trust them and believe them. And

• 1:06:22Jesse Michels?

  At Area 51?

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Area 51 adjacent sites.

• 1:06:26Jesse Michels?

  Adjacent sites.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Not S4, but adjacent sites.

• 1:06:28Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Can he say where?

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  One such place would be the Tonopah Test Range, TTR, which is managed by Sandia, which is the Department of Energy's Experimental Weapons Testing Range.

• 1:06:38Jesse Michels?

  And what does he say he does specifically in the context of crash?

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Oh, well, we'll, we'll talk about that. That's interesting. There's some interesting points there. But basically, this guy was sheep dipped from another US military branch, sheep dipped, we know that term from Jake Barber, going down the combat controller pipeline, taken into the program.

• 1:06:54Jesse Michels?

  Means getting, getting erased.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  It's an agency term, right?

• 1:06:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, going full ghost.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this guy was sheep dipped into the the programs and four programs went on on on blue sites or unacknowledged sites just to hang out for staging ops for rapid reaction retrieval teams. He has a badge. The badge has NRO on it and it just has a haphazardly slapped on Q clearance. So again, I have to state that this, I can't really provide evidence for this guy's testimony to you. And this should be taken with conjecture, of course, but this individual, I personally believe is testimony. And it seems like he never tested for a Q clearance. He never went through any sort of system to get a Q clearance. He was just given it.

• 1:07:35Jesse Michels?

  He was just given the Q clearance.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Jesse Michels?

  And the, I think this is also important because we just went through kind of org chart stuff around how the UFO stuff works hierarchically. But as far as the classification and clearances of this stuff, the Atomic Energy Commission and special nuclear material, all of that stuff is really important.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Jesse Michels?

  And so, yeah.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  So go, go watch David Grush on Joe Rogan. If you've, if you've watched it once, watch it again. If you've watched it twice, watch it half a dozen times and listen to the minutia of what he says. Specifically, legacy programs starting with the same secrecy mechanisms as the Manhattan Project and the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement birthing a lot of the secrecy behind UFO legacy program classification and controls. From that, we can take that the Department of Energy and its precursor agency, the Atomic Energy Commission, they hold a lot of the classification systems that govern UFO legacy programs and secrecy, and who gets read into the bigot list and the USAPs and how the programs are delegated and where their house and so forth. And specifically, there's numerous mechanisms that the Atomic Energy Commission and Department of Energy can utilize based upon the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  These include special nuclear materials, anything that gives off vaguely radioactive or radio, yeah, radioactive signatures, just, oh, let's put that as special nuclear material. Transclassified foreign nuclear information, which that's famously outlined in the UAPDA for three years in a row, specifically named TFNI, Transclassified Foreign Nuclear Information, and FII, Foreign Intelligence Information. Now, what's interesting about Foreign Intelligence Information is, is there's a caveat to it that I think really enforces my theory. One subset of Foreign Intelligence Information, FII, is non-contract, which means not relaisable to customers or contractors. I believe this is a security mechanism used for a Department of Energy. And their semi-autonomous subordinate agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration,

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  to obfuscate UFO programs within DOE and NSA National Labs, San Diego, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, and then the Y12 complex, which houses Oak Ridge. So that's a very interesting kind of radical to go to. Because of course, there's, it seems like with legacy programs, there's numerous layers of program security. There's the DARPA SID. If you're considered an insider outsider threat to them, they'll just kill you.

• 1:09:45Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  There's the DOE OICI, who-

• 1:09:48Jesse Michels?

  Are there examples of them, like, taking people out?

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:09:52Jesse Michels?

  Not public?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the DOE OICI-

• 1:09:56Jesse Michels?

  Well, where are you getting that, though? That DARPA SID can just, like, take people out?

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Well, I made a, I just made a tweet about this pretty recently, about the DARPA SID. And basically, their program protection structure for special access programs within the United States for the most national security, like, restrictive special access programs, the most innovative exotic technology programs for the United States. And it just, it stands to reason that the CIA historically hasn't had a problem with taking out its own citizens if it needs to. If there's an insider outsider threat, such a program protection agency or directorate on the forefront of legacy programs would not hesitate twice to neutralize insider outsider threats. Just like whistleblowers, we know today face reprisals, right? David Grush has faced reprisals.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  I know individuals who have had pensions threatened, threatened with inappropriate stuff on their computers, really disgusting, graphic stuff that is just abhorrent to think about. And so it just stands to reason, if somebody is a direct threat to a program protection structure, that they might be taken out.

• 1:10:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I sometimes wonder if there's some biological, like, if you, if you want, like, a full clampdown control on, like, people who are part of a program, are there chips you're embedding? Are you giving them shots where you can kind of switch them off later in life? Are there, are there things like, I mean, it's horrible to think about, but do you think some of that stuff is going on?

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  There's one common thread I found, and each of these three people had the same thing happen, that they kind of answered independently. There's Michael Herrera, who observed the, while deployed on the USS Denver in Sumatra, Indonesia, experienced a team in all black of operators in a large, seemingly reverse-engineered man-made craft. There's Jonathan Wagan and his infamous 1997 crash retrieval encounter. And then there's Roderick Castle, who during the Hunter Warrior Advanced Warfighting Experiment in 1997, while he was an AV-8B Harrier Aviation Technician, basically was ordered to check out some unauthorized flare activity. Saw a massive 200, 300 foot triangle and accompanying black team. He was held at gunpoint. All three of these men, directly after their encounters,

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters. Back in the 90s, there was a huge controversy around anthrax scare and anthrax boosters. Roderick Castle specifically had already been given the anthrax vaccine and an anthrax booster. So weird that right after his experience of this, this team and this triangle, likely manmade triangle, he's given another booster. Same with Wagan, same with Herrera.

• 1:12:24Jesse Michels?

  Anthrax booster.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Jesse Michels?

  So weird.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  What prompted me on this is-

• 1:12:28Jesse Michels?

  You saw some sensitive technology. Now you need to be protected from anthrax.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Jesse Michels?

  Which was a flash in the pan threat to begin with. Like, who's talking about anthrax?

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Right. What was interesting to me is initially it was, it was Roderick Castle that said this. He was like, yeah, afterwards, I was given an anthrax booster. And then I was talking to Mike Herrera about his encounter and he said, oh, I was just given an anthrax booster unprompted. This was like months after.

• 1:12:53Jesse Michels?

  And this is like a prophylactic where if you came across anthrax, presumably you'd have the immune defense for it or something. It's like a COVID booster, but for anthrax.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I, I made that connection. I was in North Carolina, sitting across from Jonathan Wagan, sharing a meal and he's talking about his encounter. I love Jonathan Wagan, by the way, one of the greatest guys I know. And he talks about, just completely unprompted, yeah. And, you know, afterwards, we were given an anthrax booster. Speaking of Jonathan Wagan, I cannot express to you how much I dislike the fellow Marine Sergeants he was with during his encounter. They threw him under the bus and sold him out.

• 1:13:24Jesse Michels?

  Well, let's get into the core details of, because you just came out with a video, maybe a couple of months ago, that, or a few months ago, that was one of the best, I think, most important, just pure whistleblower testimonies about Jonathan Wagan. And what a fascinating story. So yeah, tell us about it.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  I think that can bridge us into how crash retrieval teams work as well. Jonathan Wagan. USMC Lance Corporal, 1997, sent to Peru, Operation Laser Strike, which is a counter narcotics operation. Narco planes shoot them down, get drugs out of Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, entering US airspace. He is told at one point that there's a downed friendly or forehand plane, no big deal. So he and a troop of eight to 10 Marines, including Sergeant Atkins and Sergeant Allen's, trek down to where this aircraft crashed. After a combination of driving and trekking, they encounter a clearing, which in a basically cliff face, there's an enormous egg-shaped, teardrop-shaped craft embedded in the cliff face.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  The craft is featuring extensive ballistic damage on the back. Weigant guesses to this day, this was due to a Peruvian Hawkman 23 missile system. There is seemingly a field around the craft, you know, it's kind of silvery metallic, but around the craft, there's this swirling field, similar to what Dylan Borland said about the lava-like mechanism that was used seemingly to cloak the craft. This was a purplish-greenish, like oil on water, the mother of pearl effect. There was a light around the circumference of the craft that was kind of slowing down. And there seemed to be a hatch open with what appeared to be an arm hanging out with four fingers. This was part of-

• 1:14:59Jesse Michels?

  Did it look like a human arm? Did it look like a reptile or a gray alien?

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  It just looked like an arm hanging out.

• 1:15:05Jesse Michels?

  With four fingers?

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And this was actually one of the things that Stephen Greer cut out of their Year 2000 interview.

• 1:15:11Jesse Michels?

  Why did he cut anything out of this guy's testimony?

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  At first, I thought it was, he was vindictive against James Fox, you know, our mutual friend and excellent filmmaker.

• 1:15:20Jesse Michels?

  That's great.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  With a great upcoming project, James Fox. He filmed the Weigant interview for Stephen Greer. And so initially, when I found the raw files, which even the raw files on Greer's DPI archive are still chopped up, you can find one part where James Fox asks a question and it quickly cuts. So initially, I thought Greer just cut out James Fox's part, but it seems more dubious than that if part of Weigant's testimony was excluded. But that's par for the course for Greer, right? We can think of Brad Sorensen in the 1988 Fluxliner incident at the Norton Air Force Base Airshow, where in 1990, Brad Sorensen admitted to Aviation Week and Space Technology Senior Editor Bill Scott, "The entire incident was real. Everything happened. The Fluxliners, the copycat vehicles, and Greer and his cronies stonewalled this interview."

• 1:16:03Jesse Michels?

  So crazy. It's if you really want disclosure, and you're talking about a guy who shows up at Edwards, was it Edwards Air Force Base?

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  It was Norton Air Force Base. Close down now, near Air Force Plant 42.

• 1:16:15Jesse Michels?

  That's right. And then he's shown some back of the house show, and then he sees an alien reproduction, three alien reproduction vehicles hovering or whatever, and you see video of it. That's such an important testimony. And then he sort of goes dark, and he's really mean to all the UFO researchers.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  He's giving me so many death threats.

• 1:16:35Jesse Michels?

  It's crazy. So then you have Stephen Greer is the one guy who's sitting on really crazy testimony from him, and where is that? Did he destroy it? Or where is the evidence?

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  So I think this was found between 2017 and 2020, 2019, or 2020. One of Greer's cronies, a pretty respected and famous researcher, compiled a bunch of documents on this, and I think pried the interview from Bill Scott. And they just, him and the Greer team, just put this all in a PDF, non-OCR, so non-searchable PDF, and just posted it on the DPI archive as Norton Air Force Base internal. So this was supposed to be an internal document that was posted to Greer's public archive. This is like a 200-page PDF, and I read through the whole thing, because I was doing, I was absorbing as much McCandlish, as much Sorensen stuff.

• 1:17:30Jesse Michels?

  Is there audio associated with it?

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  No, it's a written thing from Bill Scott, but there's also handwritten notes between Bill Scott and Brad Sorensen.

• 1:17:35Jesse Michels?

  So they did publish this?

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:17:37Jesse Michels?

  They didn't publish it?

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  They just made it internal.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  No. Yeah. What? I've tried to reach out to Bill Scott, but he had a heart attack, so he's in poor health. Oh, Jesus. So I haven't heard from him. I'd like to see. He's like Aviation Week? Yeah, and Space Technology, senior editor. And of course, I've tried to kind of run a bit of a gambit with Brad, saying, hey, I've like, I've seen this interview. I know you've, you've seen it and just get more death threats, but you know, but, but the, circling back to Waganth, because I, that's, I think that's so productive in how we can talk about craft retrieval teams. But it just seems like every now and then Greer weirdly obfuscates some data, including critical testimony. I mean, the biologics being present at Jonathan Waganth's retrieval encounter is critical. Because as he gets close to the craft, as it's dripping this clear viscous syrupy like liquid,

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  he feels like a being is communicating to him in his mind, telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help. Which I, I can't imagine the type of PTSD that would give a man. A sentient being like begging for help, but also trying to calm you down. What did he do? Well, he's getting closer and closer to the craft because he's the only one that gets near it. And then Sergeant Allen and Sergeant Atkins kind of jerk him back to reality, screaming at him, and tell him to, you know, get the heck out of there. Sergeant Allen and Sergeant Atkins, I won't say which one of them, but one of them, I emailed from my [email protected] email. It's, it does not my name or anything like that, asking for comment. And they responded, hello, my full name. So they're trying to be like, trying to big bro me a little bit, be a little bit intimidating, saying like, I know who you are. That they doxed you in their response. Wow.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  Correct. So that's not cool. And that's why I don't like them. And they've also thrown them under the bus. One of them specifically said, oh, no, Jonathan Waganth's just crazy. It's just not true. But the, the most important part, in my opinion, is when Waganth and the other Marines leave the clearing. They're immediately intercepted by between eight and 12 operators in all black, US Army helmets. That's kind of an important detail. All black, no insignia, no name tags, held at gunpoint. Whilst these men are being detained, two US Army CH47 helicopters land.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Out of the helicopters come a team in mop gear, mission-oriented protective posture. Just think hazmat gear. You know, if you think back to the 1965 Kecksburg, Pennsylvania crash, all the witnesses on scene said they saw people in what they called moon suits arrive. But these people are wearing DOE insignia and some of them have DOE rain jackets. Wagan tries to resist. He gets the crap beaten out of him and he's taken and held in isolation for a period of up to two days after numerous threats of that he's going to be killed and all that stuff. But so that crash retrieval team, that is really important. The people in DOE, that is highly likely the Department of Energy Nuclear Emergency Support Team, DOE NEST.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  DOE NEST is a DOE NNSA. NNSA again is the DOE Semi-Autonomous Agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration Support Team. They're responsible for rapid reaction responses to any sort of CBRNE, chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, high-yield explosives, specifically dealing with nuclear stuff around the world. This team has their own private jets, of course, which is also really weird detail. That guy I talked to you about that has claimed he's been on retrieval teams out of the NTR has stated for some rapid reaction events, they would hop on a little private jet. So the DOE NEST has their own private jets. DOE NEST derives its authority from where else? The 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  So DOE NEST operates under that authority so they can kind of use the same classification systems to do, you know, whatever the heck they want. So how did they, because I think of OGA, Office of Global Access, as being this kind of rapid response team. Are they coordinating with DOE? OGA are a logistics coordinator. So think about like the NGA as a combat support agency. They're, them and the NRO, they're providing intelligence, actionable information and so forth. The CIA is just the coordinator. So in all likelihood, what? But this is

• 1:21:29Jesse Michels?

  And OGA is under CIA.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this is before the OGA existed, right? But in all likelihood, let's say Jonathan Wagan's encounter occurred in 2004.

• 1:21:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  Just for a mind exercise. The CIA OGA would have likely contracted the US Army 160th SOAR. Night Hawks.

• 1:21:44Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Specifically First Battalion, which is the US Army's basically helicopter regiment that supports JSOC operations to utilize their CH-47s for this retrieval operation.

• 1:21:55Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  OGA would have said, hey, we need this NEST team, whether they're NEST or whether they're just retrieval operators, using NEST and using the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement as a shield. We need those guys. And then they would also coagulate and get the the tier one adjacent likely US Army Delta, in this case, folks to to get to the retrieval scene.

• 1:22:13Jesse Michels?

  So then, yeah, what ends up happening to Wagan? So he's he's basically beat up. He's put in isolation and then he's given an anthrax shot, as he mentioned later.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  And then he's

• 1:22:23Jesse Michels?

  Anything else?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Sent back to Cherry Point. After a while, Sergeant Atkins, Sergeant Allen's get mad at him if they try and talk to him. The Marines treat him like crap, so he uses marijuana to get kicked out of the Marines because it's so hellacious for him.

• 1:22:38Jesse Michels?

  Poor guy, man. So messed up and you see it in his face.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's haunted.

• 1:22:42Jesse Michels?

  He's looks haunted.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So before we started recording and so forth, he was like trembling.

• 1:22:48Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  It it still affects him deeply to this day to speak about.

• 1:22:52Jesse Michels?

  I can only imagine.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  And it took it took months to get him on camera. He doesn't he does not want to be on camera. He lives a private life. He he has a beautiful family. He works with rescue dogs a lot. Great guy, pure heart. And it's been terrible for him. So that DOE NEST, though, I think there's a lot of interesting things there because we've talked about special nuclear material, FII.

• 1:23:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Transclassified for nuclear information and now NEST.

• 1:23:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  I think NEST is likely used at abroad and or CONUS and OCONUS, outside CONUS, continental United States, retrieval operations. The DOE and slash NNSA employ two other agencies I think are highly likely involved in UFO retrieval operations. Or passing recovered UFO materials between US national labs here in the continental United States. This would be DOE SRT, Special Response Team, which is sort of a federal unit, federal protective force that has arrest onsite authority within the US. These are the guys that safeguard nuclear material. These are the guys that safeguard Sandia and National Labs. And then the DOE NSA, NNSA OST, or Office of Secure Transportation. These are the guys that drive the big rigs that transport the materials.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Now, the common thing between all three of these agencies, NEST, SRT, and OST, these are not comprised of DOD employees. These are comprised of contractors. All three of them are comprised of contractors. For example, Sandia has designed the big rigs that OST uses. But that's not the point. The contractors involved are Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, Raytheon, and our former good friend, now part of Amentum, EGNG. EGNG, of course, is the company that allegedly hired Bob Lazar to work out at Area 51 S4. EGNG was, of course, spearheaded by Donald Kerr, of course, of the NRO. And EGNG, one of the senior special projects guys is one of the people, or Alfred O'Donnell

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  is one of the individuals who told George Knapp that there was a recovered saucer held at an Area 51 adjacent site with live biologics in the 1950s.

• 1:24:54Jesse Michels?

  And this is crazy because Alfred O'Donnell was also Annie Jacobson's source. And she goes on Lex Friedman and she goes, "I was told," on his deathbed, "Alfred O'Donnell told me," you know, that was a big source for her book, Area 51, where she was basically given exclusive early access. Post Bob Lazar, nobody really knew anything about Area 51. And she's saying that her source, Alfred O'Donnell, tells her that, what did she say exactly about Roswell? That it was these like, progeria?

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Mangled twins.

• 1:25:28Jesse Michels?

  Mangled twins.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  From Joseph Mengele at the behest of Joseph Stalin.

• 1:25:32Speaker 14

  Once it was determined that this was a hoax and that Stalin was able to get a craft over the United States and it crashed, and it had, you know, people inside of it. There were people that were sort of deformed and meant surgically altered to look like aliens.

• 1:25:52Speaker 14

  The United States government decided that it needed to know what on earth that was all about and if it was possible for us to have the same program. This according to the source, right? Now, that source is Al O'Donnell, who is the nuclear weapons engineer who armed, wired, and fired 186 nuclear weapons.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  That's harder to believe than aliens, to be quite honest.

• 1:26:17Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  It's, listening to George Knapp talk about this, you can tell he's a little bit frustrated because he spent-

• 1:26:24Jesse Michels?

  Because he has the same source as her and Alfred O'Donnell told him that it's-

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  And he also has the turning point of that source. There was, George Knapp stated that there was a meeting set up between one of the heads of EG and G, Ed Kerton, Germanhausen, and Greer, for one of them to meet with him, Dick DiMatto, you know, Dick DiMatto of, I think he was, he was SSCI, right? He was kind of in charge of probing saps and stuff, and Alfred O'Donnell, to talk about recovered UFOs. And this was sometime in the 90s. And when they got to this meeting, the subject of UFOs was off the table. And this was the turning point for Al O'Donnell. He would never speak about it again. What's, what's, what's really interesting, though, is that-

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Al O'Donnell apparently said to George Knapp that in 19, the early 1950s, 1954, to be exact, that the recovered saucer was kind of transferred into-

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Area 51 adjacent sites. Conventionally, you would think that that is because Area 51 was supposedly built in 1954, established in 1954. Even though there's strong arguments that underground sites near Area 51 existed far before that with the Borax mines. I'm of a different mind. I think that craft was moved in 1954 because the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement gave expanded powers to government-owned contractor-operated laboratories like Sandia and so forth to house the craft. And thus, 1954 resembles a turning point when DOE, FFRDCs, and NNSA, which was established in the year 2000, started to kind of hang on to these materials themselves. Especially on the Nevada Test Site in NTR, Nevada Test and Training Range. There's a series of photographs in the National Archives ranging from 1972 to at that time,

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  1992, before Martin Marietta purchased Sandia back in 1993. But, and now it exists like 2012, but it was 20,000-plus EG&G Nevada Test Site and Sandia operations all across the Nevada Test Site. So many photos of underground stuff, weird computer control rooms. So that is my prevailing theory that 1954 saw a lot of these sorts of projects being moved into government-owned contractor-operated hands, which that's further supported by, there is a former New Mexico State Rep. J. Andrew Kistner. This is like a proto-Grush. Nobody speaks about this, and it's insanely interesting. And I can speak about, so 2002 or 2004 Second Annual Crash Retrieval Conference, Linda

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  Moulton Howe says, hey, I'm going to present this testimony. I personally don't think of her as too credible of a source, so I went ahead-

• 1:29:17Jesse Michels?

  But she's broken a lot of really amazing stuff.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Right, right. But with some sensationalism sometimes. So I contacted J. Andrew Kistner myself to confirm if he did this or not.

• 1:29:26Jesse Michels?

  He's still alive.

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:29:27Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Correct. He doesn't really want to talk.

• 1:29:30Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  Which, just like most people who have been involved don't really want to talk, they-

• 1:29:35Jesse Michels?

  And he was a congressman or senator?

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Correct. He was a, he was a rep for New Mexico.

• 1:29:39Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  And so in 1994, 1995, he conducted a series of interviews with firsthand legacy people all across the board office of Naval Research, Air Force, et cetera. And basically, starting in 1947, there was some crashed craft, Van of our Bush spearheaded retrieval efforts and so forth, and

• 1:29:55Jesse Michels?

  He says all this.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:56Jesse Michels?

  It's crazy.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Numerous scientific agencies were involved. The AFSWP, which would later become DITRA, was involved. And that in the early 1950s, there was a shift in how these craft were held and craft were given over to government-owned contractor-operated hands to be custodians. So that's one of the biggest interesting things in Jay Andrew Kistner's testimony that puts a lot of faith in, in my opinion of him, as he talks about this, which comports strongly with, with my idea that National Labs started to take over these materials and house them in the 1950s. Indeed, Jay Andrew Kistner allegedly in 1995 told other New Mexico state rep, Stephen Schiff, about this. Stephen Schiff launched a giant probe into Roswell, and there was a GAO audit and, and investigation into Roswell where apparently the Air Force had lost all of their files into Roswell. So that's a really interesting rabbit hole as well.

• 1:30:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Stephen Schiff, I think, is on record saying, like, complaining about that.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. He says that the records were like rampant or like inappropriately destroyed, all that good stuff.

• 1:30:52Jesse Michels?

  So crazy.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  It seems like the mid 1990s has a lot of really weird events that might have had to cause UFO legacy programs to reorganize themselves to hide behind this Special Access Program Oversight Committee Special, or Senior Review Group.

• 1:31:03Jesse Michels?

  Makes sense. Interesting. So that was when this reorg happened?

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:07Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  1950s.

• 1:31:08Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, again, we talked about why the National Labs would be perfect to house some of these stuff. I've talked about it before. It's another individual that needs to undergo further vetting, because there's some stuff that checks out with his testimony and some stuff that begs more questions. But he has stated he has worked under the Y-12 complex, which houses Oak Ridge, on a UFO legacy program that studies the skin of two recovered, uh, non-human saucer craft.

• 1:31:31Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  And that's

• 1:31:32Jesse Michels?

  And this is a current guy that you're in touch with?

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  As of 18 months ago.

• 1:31:36Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  18 months, 24 months, like within the last one.

• 1:31:40Jesse Michels?

  And he's saying that Oak Ridge houses this program that does like, you know, kind of material analysis on UFO materials?

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So things further need to be vetted with him. So again, this, you know, if you're listening to this interview, this shouldn't be the takeaway. This should be considered an interesting addendum to the conversation already. Like, hey, maybe this is possibly true, but there's some interesting stuff there. Two recovered discs. He states that Mitre and Patel are the two primary folks involved with this and that the DOE, OICI, Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence is the, are the people that kind of run the show.

• 1:32:13Jesse Michels?

  Have you tried to stress test what he said or corroborate it through independent channels?

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  A lot of it checks out and a lot of, a lot, some of him is a little weird.

• 1:32:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  So I think at the very least, he's being used as a limited hangout by people who actually work at the Y12 complex on these stuff, specifically DOE OIC guys. But I do think there's truth to the story that under the Y12 complex, there exists this legacy program. What's interesting, he says that this program studies the skin of craft. We've started to hear this a lot with recovered extraterrestrial or non-human craft, skin of craft. Why skin of craft? I think there's a, there's going to be a budding conversation in the next couple of years that what is common in UFO crash retrieval, specifically eggs, the egg-shaped craft, whether unmanned or manned, is that there's seemingly layers of, of, of, of skin on the craft, inner layers and outer layers separating like the bulkhead from the, the outer layer of the craft. My mind is drawn to, A, the

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  NTTR operator I spoke of, he spoke about a, a cracked egg once that he was on retrieval mission for, and there was layers, like a Russian nesting doll. There was layers of skin under the craft. I think back to the 1948 testimony of one Albert Bruce Collins, who claimed to be a metallurgist, working, who had some exposure to exotic stuff at the University of California, Berkeley. This guy further stuff needs to be, further investigation needs to be done, but he disclosed to Tim Cooper and Leonard Stringfield in 1990, shortly before his death, I think on New Year's Day, 1991, or something like that. But he gave a lot of interesting insights into.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  Stuff like Project Twinkle, which was of course a Sandia Bay Z Division investigation into green fireballs over New Mexico.

• 1:33:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Uh, which Lincoln La Paz claimed probably weren't prosaic objects and so forth.

• 1:33:57Jesse Michels?

  And I think there was some obstruction there as far as the Project Twinkle records, you know, being, being shown because Lincoln La Paz, who is a, you know, kind of a University of New Mexico meteor expert, expert, not with any UFO background or spooky intelligence background, came to the conclusion that these green fireballs would track,

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:15Jesse Michels?

  You know, plumes of, of, you know, atomic detonations and, uh, were, you know, happening at atomic sites across the US. And they would turn on and off and they seemed to be intelligently moving around.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the Air Force recommended that the findings of Project Twinkle not be disclosed because there was no natural explanation for this.

• 1:34:32Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  And then, of course, we had the Robertson Panel and all that, all that, uh, stuff that happened thereafter. But Albert Brooks, Bruce Collins stated that in 1948 at the University of California, Berkeley, he saw a lowboy style trailer that was carrying a recovered vehicle. It was an egg shaped craft that seemed to be cracked. There seemed to be layers of skin and like separated bulkheads and almost inside like a visibly light compartment, sort of like an egg yolk. But that, that skin, those layers is very intriguing. Um, everybody, including our, our good friend, one of the best people I know, Chris Ramsey, is obsessed with the 4chan whistleblower.

• 1:35:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  I, I actually think there's a lot of validity to that and I think that might be legit. But there, back in 2024, there was another sort of Reddit whistleblower testimony that really flew under the radar that I, I think is worthy of revisiting. I think the title of the post now deleted was just ex OGA contractor. OGA is not Office of Global Access here. It's government, other government agency implying this guy was probably like an agency contractor or stuff. This guy was in the 24th, uh, STS, which is a tier one unit in JSOC from the Air Force. He talks about after his service in the STS, like 16 years or so. He is just doing contracting work for an OGA, probably the CIA or something. And, and he staged Okonas outside the United States and, and I'll send you the link for this because I really recommend people read it.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  It's a really juicy, really juicy testimony. That doesn't go overboard, which is interesting. And he sees his old truth chief, uh, troop chief. There's a couple C-130s that fly up to the base. It's all hush, hush. Nobody talks about it. He sees these people just get into US Army CH47s, likely 160th SOAR for rapid reaction teams. And then no talk about this, completely hush, hush about, uh, six to 10 hours later, that team returns and he sees his old troop chief. This is very strange to this, this testimony, this poster, because the troop chief was just having beers in Virginia doing the fantasy football draft days prior. The troop chief looks super disturbed, super tired, a little out of it, but won't really say what happened.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  The, the poster of this kind of pokes around, what were these guys doing? The term crash retrieval came up and he was kind of chewed out, reamed for it. A year later, he meets up with his troop chief and the troop chief kind of opens up and, and says what had happened. He was on a parallel, not directly JSOC, but a parallel tier one unit that was siloed under its own umbrella authority, not responsible for the traditional SOCOM channels, that was responsible for crash retrieval of exotic vehicles. In the span of four years, he had only done three retrieval incidents, two of which were completely unknown to him. He had no idea what they were, but this new one really shook him to the core. The team was taken to a retrieval site and there they found an egg embedded in mud.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  The egg, there was no like brush fire, there was no, you know, explosive residue. It seemed like a giant bowling ball had been dropped from space and this egg had landed in. And this large silvery metallic egg, I think a larger than the size of a couple SUVs was cracked and inside, what else is there but layers of, of craft? Seeming like the nesting doll analogy is used. What's interesting is this, this guy said, um, the air felt soupy. The air felt soupy. Recall when Dylan Borland said that that triangle took off above him at Langley, he felt the, like the, he felt like charged air, right?

• 1:37:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So it feels like there's It felt like thunder, it felt like a, like electricity, like run through his body or something.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Just like Jonathan Wiegand said, the, the air felt heavy as soon as he got in the proximity of the craft. And the guy didn't know what to do, they're just there to secure the LZ, um, but it's an anomalous vehicle that doesn't seem to be manned or like we like to say, SOP, souls on board. But it's just a, it's a really tame testimony that I encourage people to, to look at. It, it comports with what I know about manned and unmanned egg retrievals. It's very interesting.

• 1:38:19Jesse Michels?

  So fascinating. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, there's so many places to take this, but you mentioned in 2003, the OGA, you know, under the CIA gets created, the Office of Global Access. And I think there's a Daily Mail article that outlines, you know,

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  Chris Sharp?

• 1:38:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Chris Sharp again. Okay, there you go. All over the world, you know, they're kind of, you know, keeping their finger on the pulse of UFO crashes. And, you know, I think there's a rumor in, because you mentioned, you know, if this was, if the Weygand crash were after 2003, JSOC would have been involved and the Army would have been involved. I believe there's a rumor of a dogfight between Lockheed crash retrieval team and a JSOC crash retrieval team in 2004, competing over like trying to retrieve.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sentinels of Ether, huh? The Jake Barber classic. I, I mean, I've, I've heard that that checks out with the details of it and why certain elements in Sentinels of Ether, which was like a Romana clay written by Jake Barber under a pseudonym, right, to try and trick DOPs or in an intriguing play. I think there's details there that are more important. For example, I think the location of Coeyame, Mexico is really important. I wouldn't be surprised if there's like.

• 1:39:32Jesse Michels?

  Explain that. So just context beyond basic context. So Jake Barber, obviously, you know, very important, you know, UFO whistleblower came out earlier this year through Ross Colthart, me, a couple of other people, and said that he retrieved an egg-shaped craft on this sort of, you know, generic range, sort of, you know, California test range.

• 1:39:54Speaker 09

  Did you see this egg? I saw it. Absolutely. What did it look like? It's probably 20 feet plus or minus, I don't know, 10% from my point of view. You know, I was 150 feet from it. I had 150 foot long line that night.

• 1:40:11Jesse Michels?

  In a couple of different instances, well, I guess one was an egg, one was a, you know, an Acon craft. Said a lot of interesting things, also clearly was holding back, you know, in a lot of ways. And but one of the interesting things he said is to get initially get some information out through Dopser, you know, which is, you know, you need to clear everything you let out through the DOD to let it out. He said he sort of tricked them by writing a sci fi, you know, book. And I think the first chapter is out and it's Sentinels of Ether. And a lot of people, you know, a lot of hardcore UFO researchers have speculated on this, you know, first chapter of this book, because they think a lot of details might comport with the truth.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Well, the most interesting part to me is that I think there's a message there that these retrieval assets, the guys that Wegant encountered, the guys that Roger Kastlin encountered, and the guys that Michael Herrera countered, are not afraid to conduct blue on blue violence. These will, these guys will kill American servicemen if need be for their mission directive. I think that's one of the greater themes there that maybe Jake Barber's trying to bring attention to, if this is not a real event, which it very well could be. Additionally, I think there's interesting data there to suggest that, you know, maybe there's an underground US rapid reaction facility in Cojame, Mexico, in the north part of Mexico, and that maybe some of these facilities are built into mountains or built underground and there's various foliage or various terrain or possibly projections that are used to obfuscate these sites.

• 1:41:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, I mean, look, you have to look no further than like Cheyenne Mountain Complex, you know, we have, and then you always bring up, you know, the solder, you know, deep underground military bases, you have a great video on this subject. That's not a conspiracy, like under national labs and under sensitive sites all over the US, we have underground facilities.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Deep underground military bases absolutely exist. They have been a huge focus of the US DOD and US Army Corps of Engineers since 1948. When we took a bunch of Nazi scientists, including Xavier Dorsh, head of the TOT organization, to work under an air material command underground laboratory and underground systems project. Deep underground military bases are extremely real. You have to look no further than the Lockheed Helendale or Northrop Tehan RCS facilities, which were built primarily underground to hide from Soviet ISR in our denied airspace.

• 1:42:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  These places are built underground. Additionally, if you're housing a UFO or just a conventional SAP or interesting technology or even like a recovered Russian MiG, you're not going to keep that in a hangar.

• 1:42:34Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  You're not going to keep that above ground. You're going to keep that in an underground installations. And there's numerous studies by the US Army Corps of Engineers dating back to the 50s about supplying these with a nuclear reactor, where to get rid of some of the silt and dig out and where to put the excess dirt. There's data on how to supply years of food and water. There's interesting parallels to the Nazis and like the Regen Worm Lager in Poland, which was essentially an underground city with its own functioning train system. This is a very real thing. I think the biggest question is, is there a network of maglev trains or similar things connecting such installations? And I would say that there is a very strong argument that can be made. Early on, there were possible pneumatic systems that were thought to be implemented

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  in Nazi Germany under the TOT organization that would connect Berlin to France and have a pneumatic train system that would connect the two in like five minutes. There's the 1972 RAN theoretical study, the Very High Speed Transit System, which talks about connecting similar places. There's maglev systems, even Lockheed Martin was super into maglev stuff in the year 2000s. And then, of course, you can start to rationalize this.

• 1:43:38Jesse Michels?

  Maglev, levitating magnets?

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:40Jesse Michels?

  Sort of like high-speed bullet train style tech.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, like tunnel boring machines, TBMs, how these things could be used by the Bureau of Reclamation as offshoot programs to start coring out these tunnels. I implore people, go look at those Sandia NTS, Sandia lab photos, and just look at how large some of these underground tunnels were cored out under the Nevada test site just for experiments, just for various technical experiments.

• 1:44:07Jesse Michels?

  And so many of these whistleblower testimonies, like a guy you broke, who then we did a show with later, is Randy Anderson, talks about being at Naval Surface Warfare Crane, he's taken down in some elevator, goes deep below the ground, and then he's taken through a bunch of skiffs until he gets to, what is it, Offworld or other?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Offworld Technologies Division.

• 1:44:27Jesse Michels?

  Sees a gauntlet emitting hieroglyphics and a levitating sphere.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:31Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. And a lot of, a lot of stories include that, include going deep underground, it seems to, seems like.

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  What frustrates me about Randy specifically is a lot of people piled on him saying like, oh, and kind of memeing on him, trolling him, saying, why would there be a sign that says Offworld Technologies Division? I'd be remiss if I didn't show you this. At the, at the Dougway Proving Ground, the Dougway Proving Ground is the area of experimental land is larger than the US state of Rhode Island. It's, it's like the NTR where it's one of the largest non-contiguous airspaces for special projects in the entire United States. It has its two major range and test facility bases, the, the Utah Test and Training Range, UTTR. The Dougway Proving Ground houses the Southern Range of the UTTR and the West

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  Desert Test Center out of Army ATAC. By the way, if, if, if, if anybody's listening who's interested in Batel, go look at who spearheads the West Desert Test Center, Mr. Ryan W. Harris, who has a background of working for projects for the DITRA and Batel. So go start looking at that a little bit.

• 1:45:36Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  But at the West Desert-

• 1:45:37Jesse Michels?

  Because Batel co-manages Dougway Proving Grounds, is that right?

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  They do a lot of work there on, on CBRNE stuff, specifically biological stuff. That's why there's so many stories about specifically biologics being held at Dougway Proving Ground. And speaking of, this is what is, this is in the cafeteria at the West Desert Test Center, and I'll, I'll send you that so you can put it in the video.

• 1:45:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we'll pop it up. Whoa.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  They do this stuff right in your face.

• 1:45:59Jesse Michels?

  That's so crazy. And this looks so realistic, dude. And he got the three fingers.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:06Jesse Michels?

  Really trippy. So I can't tell if it has, if there's a thumb there, if it's just three fingered. Wow.

• 1:46:11Speaker 01

  As far as Dougway goes, there's, there's one guy I've spoken to, and he's in my Dougway video, who's had a firsthand encounter at Dougway Proving Ground.

• 1:46:19Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:46:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, goes by the name.

• 1:46:20Jesse Michels?

  Firsthand encounter with a being or with a-

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  No, with a craft. Undergoing, undergoing various testing mechanisms. So he was a contractor for, I can't, oh gosh, the name's escaping me, but not like a, not like a Lockheed Martin, just like a standard contractor that does operations and maintenance at Dougway. And in the Avery section, which is right by the-

• 1:46:43Speaker 01

  308th Range Squadron, I want to say, right by their airstrip at the Dougway Proving Ground. He's doing electrical meter reading and he goes inside a facility and within that facility, which is out in the middle of nowhere on Avery, there's a craft in what's seemingly going in a state of disassembling. At the bottom area of this craft that looks like a symmetrical top across its X axis, there's a like what seems to be like a panel or a part removed where there's like an inverted cone. It kind of reminds me of the like a reactor Bob kind of Bob Lazar kind of talks about. But he's immediately held at gunpoint by Indus Sec personnel and taken to, you know, another area ditto where he's kind of debriefed and threatened. And since that, he met with one of the chief scientists at Dougway.

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  This is a guy who has a very real name. I'm I've I know the name now and I'm trying to track this guy down, but this is a real person who informed this individual MS of the massive stiff or subterranean facility below Dougway, including the the specific entrance, which I'll send you a picture of, which is just west east of Granite Peak, which has all sorts of weird radar rays by the 388th Range Squadron and to the northwest of Dougway German Village. It's just a tiny, it's just a tiny little structure out in the middle of nowhere. And apparently this is an elevator down if if anybody, because it's in vogue right now. If anybody's watching Stranger Things, in the newest season of Stranger Things, where 11 is taken down to the secret lab, the secret facility. It's just like a literal shed in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the desert. Similar thing.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  What's an interesting detail is that for apparently for above ground testing, a bunch of porta potties are sometimes moved to this region. Super weird detail because another contractor I spoke to out at Dougway, who was active as recently as 2019 to 2022, I want to say, would talk about. It's so strange, sometimes in the middle of nowhere in Dougway, there will just be a bunch of random porta potties. So it seems like there's this weird connection. Maybe there's above ground testing of derivative technologies or assets that of course, you know, facilities are brought out for people. This guy, the second contractor. He maintained relationships with a bunch of quote unquote graybeards at Dougway. He guessed these guys are Batel, but they don't wear bat. They don't say, hello, my name is Jeffrey. I'm from Batel Memorial Institute or Lockheed Martin.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  One, his, his graybeard babysitter, who would kind of have to walk him through, would always appear fatigued after sometimes he'd meet him. And this guy would, when he would appear fatigued, um, this person, this friend of mine would say, hey, you know, what happened? Why are you so tired? He would say, oh, we had the triangles out again last night.

• 1:49:13Speaker 06

  It's me, the.

• 1:49:16Speaker 06

  We don't need the jingle twice.

• 1:49:19Speaker 06

  Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights and rental cars.

• 1:49:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app. Fine. No one deals more deals than. Please stop. Touche. Priceline.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  And so this guy was saying that they were, would stay out all night doing triangle testing.

• 1:49:45Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, crazy. And you trust this guy?

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  The, the, the MS guy who saw the craft, absolutely.

• 1:49:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  The second guy who's a contractor, I don't really have a reason not to, to trust him yet. He has supplied me with his photo ID badge of his contractor time at, at Dougway. Shown me direct evidence that he worked out there. I've, I've, I have no reason not to trust that guy.

• 1:50:07Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And, and Dougway, for just basic context, for the, so it's in, it's in Utah, right? And if they call it area 52 and it's sort of dubbed that.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  They call it area 52, but I don't like when people call it area 52. Because area 52 is to the tonopotest range.

• 1:50:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  Tonopotest range is literally named area 52.

• 1:50:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh, interesting. And then Dougway, are there rumors that some assets were moved from area 51 in the 90s there?

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Starting in 1990s, because there was a, a large article, uh, I can't remember. It might've been PopSci or Pop Mechanics. It was a huge expose on like area 51 and how assets might've been moved over to area 52, this mysterious new place in Dougway. What's interesting about that article is I have some pictures of it in one of my videos. The article has a bunch of pictures of like, I think like either SR71 or F-117A Nighthawk, but also has a sticky note on it that says like, "Call Bobby Ray Enman." It's super, it's a super weird meta thing.

• 1:50:58Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  But even like Edgar Fouché, whose primary testimony in 1998 revolves around the TR-3B, talks about, hey, you know, a lot of projects were moved out to dugway, proving out, it makes sense. More, less high-profile, but I, but what's weird to me is that the Nevada test and training range would have better infrastructure to house such programs.

• 1:51:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  As far as I understand, there's numerous sites across the NCTR that can house craft, underground facilities, even helicopters, possibly even hangar bays built into the side of mountains or floors.

• 1:51:29Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that some of these defense bases are co-located deliberately with, and this is gonna sound really trippy, but like, natural portals or something? And the reason I ask this is because Area 51 itself was formed at the Nevada test site, or next to the Nevada test site. Nevada test site was the site of the most domestic atomic tests in the early 50s. If you read, you know, Robert Hastings' UFOs and nukes, where do UFOs show up most? It's around nuclear sites. All of the first crashes are around either high-power radar or nuclear sites. Roswell, site of the, you know, largest nuclear stockpile in the US.

• 1:52:11Jesse Michels?

  There's an emergency meeting in 1949, I think, at Killian, you know, that Robert Hastings also writes about, between basically, you know, I think Army Counter-Intel, you know, Air Force Office of Special Investigations, you know, CIA, like, they're freaking out around UFOs showing up all over nuclear sites. And then you have the Jake Barber testimony where it's like, there's some sort of mental connection, you know, with the UFO. And so if I were studying UFOs, I would look for places that are weird to begin with, like Skinwalker Ranch, and maybe Skinwalker Ranch is like the limited hangout version of this, you know, and I would put my defense stuff there, and I would try to engage in the weird UFO shit where it's already kinda happening.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  Well, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Jake Barber talk about some of the, like, light orbs or weird, non-really physically identifiable craft he'd see over the range with like, almost... Phase into mountains or like disappear in rock formations?

• 1:53:09Jesse Michels?

  Yes, and you have Ross Colthart doing his investigative research at Bradshaw Ranch in Sedona, Arizona. We have all this weird stuff. I think it's like supposedly associated with the university, but you have all these kind of armed guards there, you know, and it's and you and they and multiple people in the area see the crafts going into this mountain. And Sentinels of Ether talks about that too, Jake Barber's book. So I'm wondering if there's this weird co-location of like paranormal stuff is already happening at this place? Let's study it and instantiate it, you know, and, and, and house it in some official defense capacity.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think there's probably three possibilities and they're all super likely. And they probably all are a thing. You house these sites by already weird locations with activity. You know, maybe if that 4chan whistleblower is to be believed and there's places within the Bahamas that that large hamburger shaped mothership that 3D prints UFOs to spec houses. Gosh, I don't know, maybe.

• 1:54:05Jesse Michels?

  They say the Bahamas.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  I think, yeah, like Bermuda, I think is an area of frequent, well, gosh, it would make sense to have.

• 1:54:10Jesse Michels?

  Well, you have magnetic anomalies there. Autec is in the Bahamas, weapons testing facility.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  To have that there.

• 1:54:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  And then that's, that's one thing that's probably true. Two, that's probably true, put these installations in the middle of nowhere. So you can bring the triangles out where people aren't around for hundreds of miles. And three, hide stuff in plain sight. I wouldn't be surprised if there are access to stiffs, SAPFs that are literally in corporate parks or shopping centers.

• 1:54:39Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Do you have any, anything specific there that you're thinking about?

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Not specifics I want to talk about, but I just, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, in the future, if, if more locations are spoken about that some of these places are in like in plain sight.

• 1:54:51Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there's anything near LAX?

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  Maybe, well, yeah, yeah, because it's, it's near like, it's very close to the Antelope Valley. And, and, and in Los Angeles, there's numerous FFRDCs, numerous locations and DoD defense laboratories. I would not be surprised if there's a large infrastructure underground there.

• 1:55:09Jesse Michels?

  How many UFOs do you think are sitting in hangars across the United States?

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. If you look to the, what Parber spoke about before he went public, he would say over his specific range, one to two a year. That number seems high for me. It seems, that seems quite high. Maybe he also meant that they were downing derivative vehicles to test their hardness to. The dog whistle and the weird.

• 1:55:32Jesse Michels?

  Or one to two a year might include just random material.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:36Jesse Michels?

  That isn't like a whole craft.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  Or intake from other locations that they can have the infrastructure to house the craft in there.

• 1:55:42Jesse Michels?

  And Hal Putoff, I think, stated a number on Joe Rogan. I think he literally.

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  Didn't he say like 12 to 15?

• 1:55:48Jesse Michels?

  I think something like that.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  I think that's low.

• 1:55:50Jesse Michels?

  That seems a little low to me, too.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  Forty to 50?

• 1:55:52Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  Maybe 50 to 100, because I do think there's validity to the US has constructed offensive weaponry against UFOs. You know, if we look at the Aztec crash, a case you, Chris Ramsey, and me also all think extremely highly of.

• 1:56:06Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  One of the prevailing theories is that the the Lashup Radar Network, which was constructed over New Mexico to protect against Soviet bomber attacks, which, by the way, Jay Andrew Kistner spoke about high-powered radar facilities messing with the UFOs in his 1994 disclosures. But one of the prevailing Aztec theories is that these super high-powered, really weird radar networks, there might have been high-intensive microwave systems that messed with the craft and brought it down. And then in, fast forward to 1983, I think there's an argument that can be made that in the Strategic Defense Initiative or Star Wars program under Ronald Reagan, that the lethality and target hardening program or the particle beam weapons program were meant to be space-based systems that utilized microwave weaponry to shoot down UFOs.

• 1:56:47Jesse Michels?

  Well, this was the weirdest part of the Malamgren story that I, you know, again, I hold him in super high esteem. And I think there's a lot of weirdness around. I feel like there was a coordinated information operation to kind of take him out, to be honest. They changed his Wikipedia page.

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, yeah, that was ugly.

• 1:57:03Jesse Michels?

  The blog post was like, we asked XYZ person and they hadn't heard of him over and over again, which is like, you're talking about like this NOC.

• 1:57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:12Jesse Michels?

  Who like, was clearly like, I don't doubt his connections for a second.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:17Jesse Michels?

  The guy was connected at extremely elite levels. He knew a lot of very interesting people, and I think he was in a lot of the rooms that he said he was in.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:26Jesse Michels?

  So I think that was kind of, kind of, you know, BS. So but the weirdest part of Malamgren's testimony, which didn't even occur directly with me, he was apparently, again, final few days on his deathbed, speaking to Pippa, his daughter. And he told her that he had seen an interview with the surviving or one of the surviving alien beings from Roswell, which is fascinating, like, like a recorded interview with this being and that the being suggested that we use like high-power radar to take out crafts.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:03Jesse Michels?

  And then you get into these weird like, are we in some sort of like, are we being used in some sort of like, as a proxy in like a larger cosmic war between these extraterrestrial beings? And he was involved, I believe, in the Strategic Defense Initiative.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:18Jesse Michels?

  And, and if you look at Blue Gill Triple Prime, it was kind of a proto SDI Strategic Defense Initiative thing that he was doing. It was missile defense. Missile defense was this big issue at the time because you couldn't really kinetically like, you know, we didn't have like interceptors that could like knock into like, you know, like, like Russia, Soviet missiles.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:40Jesse Michels?

  And so, you know, in, in that case, it was like this X-ray burst that would like take out the surrounding missiles. Really, really interesting. There's this like RAND Corporation paper, I think, kind of scoping it out before they actually executed on it in 63.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  And SAIC was up to the, the gills, working on, on those programs as well for SDI.

• 1:59:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, they were one of the largest contractors, right? For SDI.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  What's interesting to me is that there, there are some theories out there that the actual idea for SDI originated with Eisenhower, not Reagan.

• 1:59:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  And then, of course, what was established under Eisenhower? Well, the NRO, you know, there's a theory that could be constructed that as soon as we got the NRO up there with their, taking over the Corona satellite program and all sorts of keyhole satellites, they immediately started getting a bunch of imagery and signals intelligence of a bunch of UFOs.

• 1:59:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, now you have Beatrice Boreal coming out with this peer-reviewed paper. This is wild to me because it's like. You academia has nothing to say and and kudos to, you know, Brian Keating, who's actually usually kind of more on the anti UFO side, but he's like, you know, this has to be contended with. You have Sabina Hossenfeld. There are a few people with real credentials and, you know, larger platforms saying Beatrice Villarreal, who's Stockholm University, you know, astronomer with actually physics background as well. She the Palomar Plates. Palomar is this observatory in California. It was the most prominent observatory in use in the 50s. Between 49 and 57, pre Sputnik going up into space.

• 2:00:11Jesse Michels?

  You have over 100,000 transients, light reflecting objects. It's insane and nobody has a good debunk to this day, you know, and it's peer reviewed.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  And isn't there data that Donald Menzel and the the Menzel, the Menzel Plates, he was one of the ones kind of stripping some of these plates out?

• 2:00:28Jesse Michels?

  Not only is there like that a rumor, that is from a book by Dorit Hofleit, who became a respected astronomer in her own right. Was was at Harvard with Donald Menzel and writes about this. And by the way, Donald Menzel not only held extremely high clearances in just about every agency you could, you know, name. He was rumored to be, you know, majestic 12. I believe Kennedy, while he was at Harvard, had an interest in like astrophysics. And so he had some, you know, relationship with Don Menzel. But Don Menzel was also head of the, and I always botch this, but the the earliest version of NIST. So it's like the Bureau of like Standards in the US.

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:11Jesse Michels?

  So it was like, like, you know, the, the, the organization that like creates like the, the, you know, encryption standards and like, you know, like the, you know, decides that we're not going on the metric system or whatever, like the kind of the most reality management style job you could think of. And he's the guy caught destroying plates by somebody who's very reputable, Dorit Hofleit. So yeah, it's weird. And there were only like, there, there weren't that many observatories in, you know, at the time that were even functioning. And so I think if you get one other observatory to do like, if it's, if it's pretty correlated, they have transients also from 1949, 1957 that line up with what Beatrice finds.

• 2:01:52Jesse Michels?

  To me, that's like game over for disclosures. Literally like you're talking about like light reflecting objects that aren't. Comets, meteorites, you know, meteorites, asteroids. It's not satellites. Like, she's clearly debunked all of that enough to like, you know, average astronomer for them to like peer review it. And like, that seems like, you know, an easy first order debunk that she's getting around. So this is crazy news.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  And already the armchair debunk is to say it was Project Mogul balloons.

• 2:02:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, did somebody say that? That's absurd. Yeah, they're just going back to the Roswell playbook. Oh, my God.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, yeah, Beatrice is doing the Lord's work right now.

• 2:02:30Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing.

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  Let me ask you this, because you were talking about the number of crashes that have craft.

• 2:02:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  Craft that have crashed.

• 2:02:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  If you had to rank, let's just say, your top five UFO crash approval events and favorite, most credible, just.

• 2:02:42Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, most credible. What would you say those are, your top five?

• 2:02:45Jesse Michels?

  I would say, I would say put Aztec up there for sure. You have five witnesses, you have the lash up radar system, you have, you know, clear obstruction with Silas Newton and Leo Gabauer and stuff. So I'd put that up there. I would now put Magenta up there. And I don't know, you know, depending on when this comes out, I'll either tease here now, or this will, will have come out already. But Marconi, who invented the radio.

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:12Jesse Michels?

  This is like getting like Oppenheimer's like, you know, offspring saying that he worked on UFOs. Marconi's grandson, I was able to track him down and get an interview. He's a prince, Prince Marconi. And he was like, my grandfather was on cabinet RS33, this cabinet with Mussolini, and they were working on the extraterrestrial issue.

• 2:03:30Speaker 15

  In 1933, the Italian government set up this group of secret research 33 cabinet, where Marconi was the chair, was the president, and Enrico Ferriemi was the vice president. And they made some searches and studies on this phenomenon. Because 1933, they say that in Varese in off of Italy, there were some apparitions of so-called UFOs.

• 2:03:54Jesse Michels?

  In Magenta, Italy, or do you know where specifically?

• 2:03:57Speaker 15

  Yes, Varese, it's north east Italy, north east, yes. Varese, it's north of Milan, in Lombardy. And between Lombardy and Benetton land.

• 2:04:09Jesse Michels?

  He couldn't go much deeper than that, but that's fascinating. You would now have archival and, you know, stuff that corroborates RS33 existing. And you know, so, so I think the magenta, and then you have David Grush, who to me I hold in highest esteem when it comes to UFO whistleblower. So I would put magenta up there now. I really like the 90s Brookhaven crash. I think that's really fascinating.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, Long Island, New York. Yeah, it's a great case.

• 2:04:33Jesse Michels?

  There's a really interesting testimony from a sheriff around that, that I, you know, I think is very strong. And then I, to me, it pattern matches because they have Cosmatron, the particle accelerator. I think particle accelerators and nuclear seem to attract UFOs. So I think that's up there for me. I would say Kecksburg with the Eric Walker, you know, connection, I think is really fascinating. And then as a final one, I don't know.

• 2:04:59Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:05:29Jesse Michels?

  You know, I'm interested in the 1897 one. I don't think there's a ton of, yeah, I don't think there's a ton of evidence. I mean, that wouldn't be one of my highest kind of conviction ones. I don't know. What would you say beyond, beyond that?

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  Definitely Aztec and magenta. I'm right there with you. Kecksburg as well. I love the 1974 Coeyame, New Mexico crash. There's not a ton of supporting evidence, but the story there, if true, is very, very disturbing. And also pretty interesting, just the way that apparently the Deneb report is a CIA-directed, like, logistics plan, like the OGA would do to gather rapid reaction teams and assets to go retrieve the craft, as well as providing overhead intelligence of the Mexican team trying to get the craft. That's a great case. Apparently, the Mexican team was either killed by a CBR, or by a, like, leak within the craft, or the Americans killed him, which is far more likely, in my opinion. Maybe that ties over in the Sentinels of Ether, will kill other allied soldiers in Coeyame, Mexico.

• 2:06:24Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Oh, interesting. Yeah, you might have been writing about that cryptically. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, by the way, I'm gonna go with five as Wigan.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  Yes, okay, I was gonna say, yeah, Wigan's up there. Wigan's up there. There's a ton of rich stories. Kecksburg is-

• 2:06:39Jesse Michels?

  Because Wigan's alive. Like, that's rare. I'm thinking about, like, one through four. You don't have anybody alive talking about the retrieval. Like, Wigan- I mean, that seems like super, you have a person who was part of the retrieval and then, you know, I, I think that the Jake Barber thing is really interesting as well. I just, I want more details.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:06:57Jesse Michels?

  I wish he could, I wish he could have shared more.

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  He's said, he's held back more than he said.

• 2:07:04Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:07:04Speaker 01

  Which is frustrating. But as, as another one I'd throw in, uh, Kingman, of course, with Dr. Wang.

• 2:07:09Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah. Kingman. Kingman's a great, I, I would put that up there, too.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  And how Steinman writes about Wang also being involved with the Aztec crash and how Wang is this figure that, you know, you can never really track down besides some Wright-Patt stuff. He died pretty early on. What an, what an incredible.

• 2:07:25Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's, it's, that's an amazing story. So you have, um, our operation upshot not hole, not hole, which was a, a test in 1953. I think it was Nevada test site, right? Or?

• 2:07:36Speaker 01

  Arizona.

• 2:07:37Jesse Michels?

  It was Arizona.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:07:38Jesse Michels?

  I thought it was Nevada, but it, the crash ended up occurring in Kingman. I'm pretty sure it did.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  I think you're right. Yeah. It occurred just across, yeah.

• 2:07:44Jesse Michels?

  It was close, but yeah. Um, and then it was like Arthur Stansel.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  Yep. Who was, uh, who has records to show him.

• 2:07:51Jesse Michels?

  At Wright-Patt.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:52Jesse Michels?

  Wright Airfield at the time.

• 2:07:53Speaker 01

  And Operation Upshot Not Hole.

• 2:07:54Jesse Michels?

  And Operation Upshot Not Hole. He was there and they were testing like, I, I believe part of Operation Upshot Not Hole was like, how the surrounding environment would get affected by these detonations.

• 2:08:04Speaker 01

  It would blast nukes from artillery.

• 2:08:06Jesse Michels?

  It's crazy. And it was like surrounding neighborhoods. What happened? It was like really crazy.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  That was about the time we'd, we'd blow up atomic weapons and send in army regiments right after the blast.

• 2:08:14Jesse Michels?

  So nuts, man. So, so, yeah. So he is then like, was like blindfolded and he's like, he's like, drives like into Kingman, Arizona. And then he sees like a little being in a, in a, in a cot or something.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like a makeshift tent that there's a tiny little brownish being, uh, possibly charred and mangled. Cause he was sent in to do a ballistic trajectory analysis.

• 2:08:39Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 2:08:39Speaker 01

  Because the craft had theoretically impacted at incredible speeds and disrupted much of the surrounding area, but the craft itself wasn't damaged.

• 2:08:46Jesse Michels?

  And the craft itself, I think, looked like two pans, like fused together. And, and so Arthur Stansel, yeah, on record at Wright-Patt. And then here's what's really interesting. Eric Henry Wang is this sort of famed guy who's head of special projects at Wright Airfield, and I believe he studied in Vienna with Victor Schauberger.

• 2:09:07Speaker 01

  Yes, he did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:09Jesse Michels?

  Really interesting. This famous kind of Austrian naturalist who believed in this impeller propulsion system and had his own flying saucer designs. And there's this question of like, did Eric Henry Wang exist? And you have some evidence that maybe he did exist.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yes. He existed. He existed. If you look through the DTEC, the Defense Technical Information Center, you can find actual, you can find old engineering documents with Eric Henry Wang on it. But we might have a new kind of break in the case of actually finding photos of Eric Henry Wang at Wright Patterson back in the 1950s. If we can do that, I think that would be, get those photos and actually put kind of a face to the name.

• 2:09:50Jesse Michels?

  And location.

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  And location. That's going to open up new avenues of exploring Wang.

• 2:09:53Jesse Michels?

  That's a big deal. And I was maybe playing a little coy. I could say definitively he was real because I have a researcher friend who's in touch with his daughter now. So like, yeah, he was a real guy. And then here's what's really interesting about that William Steinman book, Aztec. He says that Eric Henry Wang was erased from the internet. He was the only guy that when Steinman, because Steinman was a great researcher, he would go knocking on everybody's door. And he was trying to figure out what was up with this Eric Henry Wang guy who was head of special projects at Wright Airfield, then gets moved to Kirtland Air Force Base.

• 2:10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:26Jesse Michels?

  And he's like, who is this guy?

• 2:10:27Speaker 01

  Sandia.

• 2:10:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, now Sandia. And so he's like, what's going on with this guy? And he keeps getting these slaps on the wrist, like, don't look at him. Don't look at him. He goes, I figured out he reported to a guy named HAK.

• 2:10:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:10:40Jesse Michels?

  And guess who HAK is?

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  Kissinger.

• 2:10:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. It's Henry A. Kissinger.

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  And there was like a source that Steinman was talking to had information about Wang that went cold on him.

• 2:10:49Jesse Michels?

  Well, he showed up, Maria Wang, I believe he met his wife.

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:54Jesse Michels?

  And Maria Wang, like, yeah, I think it flipped on him or something.

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  Steinman is a treasure. Can we, the Aztec book, how Steinman went to Colorado through court records to find out how Gebauer and Silas Newton were. unfairly attacked in their court case is astonishing. You know, Silas Newton and Leogebauer were convicted of fraud for perpetuating the doodlebug device, which has very real historical significance in anti-submarine warfare detection of World War II spearheaded by Vannevar Bush. But that even in their court case, there was a similar, not the same device supplanted into the court case to kind of frame them as kooks and frauds. And Steinman did all of this. He went through, he was also a pioneer, talking to Eric Walker. He was a pioneer on numerous cases.

• 2:11:40Jesse Michels?

  Numerous cases and even Scully, you know, the case behind the flying saucer, like the, you know, kind of original like archetypal UFO book that outlines this kind of Aztec crash. He was trusted with a lot of like celebrities or like really sensitive information. And so whoever Dr. G was, this sort of like, you know,

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  consortium of scientists.

• 2:12:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:12:03Speaker 01

  All of whom worked on anti-submarine programs under Vannevar Bush.

• 2:12:07Jesse Michels?

  So wild, so wild. Yeah, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey have really, they deserve all the credit for digging up this like, kind of like shortlist of like eight to nine scientists that likely are being represented in this pseudonym Dr. G.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:21Jesse Michels?

  And they're getting in touch with Silas Newton. Silas Newton, by the way, was worth, I don't know if you know this, $20 million at the time.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Really rich oil man.

• 2:12:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so that's like a few hundred million now.

• 2:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and pro golfer too.

• 2:12:34Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know that.

• 2:12:35Speaker 01

  It was like a pro or semi-pro golfer.

• 2:12:37Jesse Michels?

  So no reason to lie about, you know, no reason to con anybody with the doodlebug, no reason to lie about a UFO crash, like.

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  But also in their court case, Gabauer and Newton summoned multiple witnesses who spoke to the doodlebugs efficacy and finding oil deposits under their system. I can't remember the exact acronym. I think it was like MAP or something, but like a magnetic resonance thing to detect cavities underground that they actually found success with.

• 2:13:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, interesting. Well, I know he was really interested in magnetism.

• 2:13:06Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And Silas Newton in his diaries would talk about Wilbert B. Smith, Canadian radio engineer who spearheaded Canada's first project on UFOs, who was told by Robert Sarbacher, you know, consultant to the Defense Research Board, spearheaded by Vannevar Bush, that UFOs existed, that their modus operandi was unknown, but efforts were going under Vannevar Bush to study them. And it was the most highly kept secret in the United States government, classified even higher than the Manhattan Project. All these sort of interconnected things that are so interesting.

• 2:13:35Jesse Michels?

  So interesting. I think, yeah, I wonder if one of these people, you know, like Sarbacher has a son.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:41Jesse Michels?

  And I wonder if we could get in touch with him.

• 2:13:42Speaker 01

  I'd like to. I always try and talk to people's kids. Like, I've tried to get in contact with Dr. Eric Walker's kids.

• 2:13:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  Just no avail. Don't hear anything.

• 2:13:49Jesse Michels?

  So what are all of the locations in the US that you think house UFOs?

• 2:13:57Speaker 01

  So it seems like if we're looking at the continental United States, there's a, there's a big divide, right? There's the, there's the west of the country, which has lower population density, which seems more suitable to RDT and E work, research, development, test and evaluation. You have massive ranges, dugway and the Nevada test and training range, on which you could test derivative technologies. If we're looking out east, of course, we talked about the Outek, Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Command, which is a Navy major range and test facility base. Patuxent River as well. I think whistleblower Matthew Brown talked about a Mentum hangars at Patuxent River, housing some anomalous stuff. And remember, EG and G eventually transitioned into Patuxent River.

• 2:14:38Jesse Michels?

  Wasn't Sal Paise also Pax River?

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was at Pax River when he filed his patents.

• 2:14:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and his patents seem like how a UFO might work.

• 2:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like an internal mass reduction triangular craft.

• 2:14:49Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that's weird. And with Matthew Brown, I'm not sure I agree with him about a Mentum hangars. Part of what I, part of what I have come to strongly believe and would contest with that statement is I think the owners of the hangars are FFRDCs. They're the ones who manage it.

• 2:15:05Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  A miter hangar, yes, but this is part of a theory I have about why the Kona Blue PSAP failed. I think there's a very strict chain of command. And people say legacy programs have no oversight. I disagree completely. I think they have alternative oversight that is extremely strictly managed. And I don't think contractors are necessarily allowed to have hangar storing craft. I think it is the FFRDCs. Cause it's that go government operated government owned contractor operated method that, you know, if crap really hits the fan, the USG can take possession of it if it needs to. And you, you wouldn't think the DOD or IC would allow technologies and craft of unknown origins to sit in contractor hands uncontested. But so Pax River, I'd imagine MITRE has quite a bit of involvement out there in Pax River.

• 2:15:50Speaker 01

  The big, the crown jewel about east is Crystal City in, in Virginia. There was one firsthand legacy guy, a friend of mine I was speaking to once, and he said that the answer to most of what you're looking for is in Crystal City, Virginia.

• 2:16:03Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  Crystal City houses eight of 10 of the US's biggest defense contractors, numerous FFRDCs.

• 2:16:10Jesse Michels?

  This is Crystal City in Arlington or?

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, near Arlington. And then of course you got that Chantilly region with the NRO headquarters and SAIC headquarters and, and all that. But I imagine, I imagine Crystal City is likely where I guess the, the, the lifeblood of legacy programs is executed, the framework, the agreements, what contractors are rotated through, what programs are rotated through where, you know, a lot of the bigot list accesses is handled.

• 2:16:37Jesse Michels?

  And isn't John Peterson based out there? The kind of Arlington Institute?

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:43Jesse Michels?

  Futureistic studies or whatever.

• 2:16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Of course, BDM McLean was out there where the advanced theoretical physics working group was held and.

• 2:16:50Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. So that's where that group was with the hell put off and Oki Shannon, kind of looking into UFOs.

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  And then I, under Washington DC, the Pentagon, I have reason to believe there's a very large underground facility, not the NMCC. The national, national something command center, the NMCC, it's not that. It's a, it's a massive facility deep beneath the Pentagon. That likely houses some sort of, of very clandestine office that at least in, in, in years past would manually process, read on access to USAPs. Weird place, deep under, deep under the Pentagon. There's some interesting data to confirm this, its existence and, and, but it's, of course it's still contested. Out. And then, of course, lastly, we have the Y12 complex in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

• 2:17:42Speaker 01

  Which, hey, Sean Kirkpatrick, why did you run to Oak Ridge after you fled from Arrow? Why did your position, which was like, you know, Director for Intelligence Programs at Oak Ridge? Why, something similar to that, why was that pulled off their page? And why in 2025 has Sean Kirkpatrick's LLC, nonlinear solutions subcontracting subcontracting under MITRE for US SpaceCom?

• 2:18:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's so clear that Arrow was like basically counterintuitive.

• 2:18:07Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 2:18:08Jesse Michels?

  And Jim Lekatsky sort of said this on this last Weaponized podcast, but it's like,

• 2:18:14Jesse Michels?

  I mean, I think Glenn Gaffney, who was the Director of Science and Technology for the CIA, was on the board of Arrow, like, he might still be, for all I know, you know? It's sort of...

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, like the Carlyle Group, or Ronald Moultrie of the Carlyle Group, helping set up Arrow, and he and Sean Kirkpatrick are kind of smirking at each other, saying, "There's nothing to UFOs."

• 2:18:30Jesse Michels?

  And speaking of somebody scrubbing their resume, you pointed this out in a great video. Ronald Moultrie, you know, basically created the auspices under which Arrow was created. Also, was a Board Director of the Batel Memorial Institute and deleted that off his LinkedIn.

• 2:18:47Speaker 01

  Scrubbed it, and part of the Carlyle Group.

• 2:18:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  I think, don't quote me on it, but I'm almost positive he was also part of MITRE.

• 2:18:54Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  MITRE will show up everywhere and anywhere. With Sean Kirkpatrick, I'm not sure if he had exposure to legacy programs before his work at Arrow. One could probably argue with his positions in SpaceCom and with intelligence, he might have been exposed to programs of IMINT or SIGINT satellites and overhead collection platforms actually collecting UFOs. There's a big misconception there, by the way. People think that, like, the overhead satellites, you know, NRO satellites are just picking up live feeds of UFOs. No, this stuff is all parsed into data. All the data is transmitted from the satellites electronically. So a program like Immaculate Constellation or a legacy program satellite, because Immaculate Constellation isn't a legacy program. It was a reactionary US app established in 2017, would clip out data that would probably depict

• 2:19:38Speaker 01

  anomalies like a UFO and sequester it into IMCOM or another legacy program site. So who knows if Sean Kirkpatrick had previous exposure to UFO legacy programs? But a strong argument could be made that whilst he was head of Arrow, he was retroactively briefed into various aspects of legacy programs, so he would know what to lie about in the Arrow Historical Report.

• 2:19:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and I think the larger point is like, there's just such a conflict of interest.

• 2:20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:00Jesse Michels?

  If you have some independent review board, like for the people of the US around whether there is non-human intelligence, any of this stuff exists, don't pick the guy who at 17 won, you know, an award from the DOE, from the Department of Energy at Brookhaven National Labs, and ever since has been doing contract work in that area. Like, pick somebody who's gonna be impartial. It's-

• 2:20:24Speaker 01

  Senior research scientist to SAIC, too.

• 2:20:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 2:20:28Speaker 01

  With NRO. You know, specifically, I think back to, then you must ask the question, what did Arrow lie about in that testimony? One specific example we know for a fact that was lied about in Arrow Historical Report, Volume 1, was Michael Herrera's testimony. We actually pried his MFR from Arrow, his memorandum for record, because the Arrow Historical Report said Herrera spoke about an extraterrestrial spacecraft in US Special Forces, neither of which he spoke about. So, if Sean Kirkpatrick was retroactively briefed into parts of legacy programs, just to know enough to, you know, obfuscate the report, that means was if he lied about Herrera's testimony, was, does he have knowledge of direct action crash retrieval personnel?

• 2:21:05Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Yeah. And you have meetings, you have pictures of him in like a meeting with Brandon Fugel, just giving like-

• 2:21:10Speaker 01

  Oh, the one where-

• 2:21:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, weird kind of look over his shoulder at the guy who's taking the photo of him.

• 2:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:18Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, so clearly he was being briefed on some of this stuff, you know, earlier than he likes to admit.

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  And anybody who talks to him says he's awful.

• 2:21:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:27Speaker 01

  Repugnant.

• 2:21:28Jesse Michels?

  And it seems like you just, you know, you mentioned this as well in your video, he will adamantly say extraterrestrial, he will never say non-human, where, yeah, maybe we don't have a smoking gun that these things are from another specific planet.

• 2:21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Remember that David Grush B-roll footage with Ross Colthart? When he speaks about biologics, he says presumably extraterrestrial, but not a for sure confirmation.

• 2:21:51Jesse Michels?

  That's why they say non-human.

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  Presumably extraterrestrial, but not for sure.

• 2:21:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's hard to know. I think maybe the biggest misconception of all in this whole disclosure conversation is the idea that the government has a monopoly on metaphysical truth.

• 2:22:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:22:07Jesse Michels?

  Like, they have, there's somebody there who like has this core theory of how the world works. That is way more accurate than somebody on the outside. I think they have a ton of asymmetric data on this issue for sure. And we are, a lot of it is worthy of disclosure. And this needs to be, you know, outside of stuff that's like extremely, you know, like weaponizable at like low costs or whatever. Like everything else should be like completely disclosed. It's the nature of reality, but like we would still have to piece together the nature of reality. I don't think the government's sitting on that.

• 2:22:40Speaker 01

  No, it seems like their entire, as David Grush says, asymmetrical warfare advantages and feudalistic dominance.

• 2:22:46Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  That's what they, they're not out there philosophizing as to like the larger truths of these beings. And speaking to Sean Kirkpatrick, I'm reminded to when Susan Go was asked if by a FOIA researcher or somebody, if they could amend her statement about no extraterrestrials to include non-human intelligence, to which she said, no, you absolutely cannot amend my statement to include, we have no evidence of non-human intelligence. What a piece of work. The woman who controls the lease of Sean Kirkpatrick.

• 2:23:13Jesse Michels?

  Well, if that's not a tell, I don't know what is like, that's, that's crazy. That shows a lot of insecurity.

• 2:23:19Speaker 01

  Right, but we were talking about facilities.

• 2:23:21Jesse Michels?

  And she ran Psyop stuff.

• 2:23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, she wrote papers on Psyops, just like Sean Kirkpatrick wrote papers on influence of people in like social networks and stuff.

• 2:23:30Jesse Michels?

  It's like social engineering.

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like Arrow hired Sandcorp, which specializes in insider threat protection and whistleblower leaks. Tim Phillips went blabbering on a podcast saying Sandcorp was hired to connect Arrow to subject matter experts. That's not in Sandcorp's scope of operations, so I'm not sure I believe that. But yeah, Arrow was doing all sorts of dubious activities.

• 2:23:51Jesse Michels?

  Don't, don't you find yourself caught though sometimes between these obfuscators of truth who are clearly bad actors? Like everybody we're just, we just mentioned, clearly a bad actor. And then some people on the pro UFO side who also seem like they're at times bad actors.

• 2:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:06Jesse Michels?

  And so it's like this weird, you're like flinked by like bad vibes.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  It's a minefield.

• 2:24:12Jesse Michels?

  It's a minefield and, and like, and then you ask the question like. Are we being led down this path where like the whole framework of how we're thinking about this is like messed up because you clearly do have bad actors on both sides?

• 2:24:25Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 2:24:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  Controlled disclosure, that's why like if there's one person whose word I would take at face value would be David Grush.

• 2:24:32Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:24:33Speaker 01

  He does not seem to be giving some sort of limited disclosure. He seems, watching anything with him, you can get a very clear depiction of what his character is and how his brain operates. And you can kind of infer exactly why he's doing what he's doing at great personal cost to himself, kind of directly answering as much as he possibly can, speaking on all aspects of the subject, you know, non-human intelligence, presumably extraterrestrial, how these programs are funded.

• 2:24:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  And so forth.

• 2:24:59Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think, I think on the process, per David Grush, most of the whistleblowers, most of them, and there's probably some exceptions, are good actors.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the whistleblowers.

• 2:25:11Jesse Michels?

  A lot, like, like the guys especially who like experienced a thing or like haplessly were, they were tasked to investigate a thing like David Grush, or they, you know, and they they like fell into like, you know, seeing things that they couldn't look away from.

• 2:25:26Speaker 01

  Or folks on the SSCI, I would put in that category as well, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence who are tasked with investigating this.

• 2:25:32Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. People like Kirk McConnell and some other staffers and yeah, who, you know, definitely knew a lot about these things and provided a real pipeline from legacy programs to Congress so that these guys could show up in SKIFs and stuff. He's for sure. And then at the same time, there are all sorts of weird, you know, guys who like they pop up in like the pro UFO world and then they're also doing some other sketchy stuff in intel world and you're like.

• 2:25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, limited disclosure, promising researchers and folks various things and then doing other things. And it's, it's just, it's, it's, it's kind of a mess.

• 2:26:09Jesse Michels?

  It's a mess. And all I'm saying is it's like. I think it's easy to go after the obfuscating guys ad hominem, and then it's harder to go after the pro guys ad hominem. Because like, I think both of us are like pro disclosure. Yes. And so I'm like, if you're gonna be like a weirdo in like other aspects of your life, but you're like, you're pushing like, like the nature of reality are the stakes. Yeah. I don't fucking care about your like other weird shit. I'm not gonna get caught up in that because I'm gonna get distracted from the truth if I get caught up in that. Well, the thing about manage, like I think Carl Nell, you know, who's always been, you know, to me, a good guy and like my, I've enjoyed my interactions with him.

• 2:26:51Jesse Michels?

  I find him to be extremely intellectually just brilliant. Uh, but he just went on a podcast and he said disclosure is dead.

• 2:26:58Speaker 16

  I guess the posture that I've got is that this recent cycle of disclosure that we might say started in 2017 with the Navy videos and Lou Elizondo coming out and, and, and as a whistleblower making various assertions. But that, um, that cycle of disclosure has effectively ended with the failure to pass the, uh, the UAP Disclosure Act and with, with sort of the fourth, uh, or third in the series of hearings, uh, on the topic that I think increasingly have moved the needle less and less.

• 2:27:31Jesse Michels?

  And I think you are gonna end up there if you attempt to do the manage. The managed disclosure thing is the most Sisyphean. Yeah. Exercise. And like, I think maybe the most telling thing in the, the, not this last congressional testimony with Dylan Borland, but the one before that, the closed one with like Elizondo, Avi Loeb and Eric Davis. Eric Davis said the NHI themselves are controlling disclosure. Yeah. Which is this logical fallacy, like how do you control disclosure in a world where those superior beings exist? Yeah. They're obviously gonna be managing the process. Boy, that event was a mess, was it not? That was a total mess. The crop circle or whatever. Gosh.

• 2:28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, speaking of Eric Davis, it's the same thing. I think he's provided some extremely valuable intelligence. I, I think the fundamental facts of the Wilson Davis memoir are very true in, in the sense that Thomas Wilson was denied access into, uh, legacy programs while deputy director of the DIA. But then like, I believe that Eric Davis has lied to my face about the, the success of derivative technologies and alien reproduction vehicles. I, I think he has. As close as we are now, told me outright fallacies about that and whether it's he's just too proud to admit that he doesn't understand the science or more likely, in my opinion, it's a classic program protection strategy. I it seems like with a lot of the most famous characters in this subspace, their disclosures come with strings attached.

• 2:28:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  Some things pocketed away or compartmentalized or half-truths.

• 2:29:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. It's interesting also how like certain cases are like with Eric Davis, he seems like, you know, I talked to him about the Aztec crash. He's just so dogmatically opposed to that crash.

• 2:29:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:29:12Jesse Michels?

  And if you look at that with an open mind and first principles, in fact, I think on the Wikipedia is still Aztec crash hoax. It is like, you know, literally in the name. And but then if you look at it with an open mind, you meet Scott and Suzanne Ramsey, who are these really amazing people in North Carolina, independent researchers who have small business and have poured, I want to say $600,000 plus into this investigation over decades. And they have so much evidence. I mean, I went to the crash site with them.

• 2:29:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:42Jesse Michels?

  This thing happened, there's something happened there. And I don't know if it's dogmatism on Eric Davis's part, I don't know where he's coming from or what the deal is, but.

• 2:29:52Speaker 01

  But then conversely, he also is very pro the 1954 Del Rio, Texas crash incident, which that's a huge can of worms because there's two crashes there, 1955 Robert Willingham in Del Rio, Texas, and the 1954 Del, 1950 Del Rio crash, which is actually El Indio slash Guerrero, Texas, Mexico, which is only really talked about in the Eisenhower briefing document of the Majestic 12 documents. So he'll kind of dogmatically shoot down Aztec, but support a very convoluted case without much evidence to support or even investigate or chew into it.

• 2:30:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's tough. I mean, it's funny, you got me thinking when you asked my top five crashes, like the confidence level drops off a ton for me after maybe number seven or eight or something, because you have all these like Leonard Stringfield cases with like, it's just pseudonyms and you're like, I don't know, you know, like, like even, you know, even the Lawrence Livermore thing, you mentioned like, you know, maybe that has, you know, a name attached to it and a guy in, you know, 1990 or one or whatever that, you know, came out, but. It's some of these crashes just feel like really like I, you know, the magenta thing. I now have Marconi's grandson, but we have no living witnesses of this crash.

• 2:31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:07Jesse Michels?

  It's just, it's tough with some of these things.

• 2:31:08Speaker 01

  It's the same thing with Ryan Wood's excellent book, Magic Eyes Only. There's really intriguing cases that, you know, likely have some validity to them, but there's not enough to really sift through and chew through. There's not enough people to speak to. There's not enough named characters. I mean, I'm sure there's quite a few crash retrievals in Ryan Wood's book, Magic Eyes Only, that are legit. There's just not enough information to parse through or form a strong opinion on.

• 2:31:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, exactly. It's tough. Well, do you think like, this feels like it can't be containable over a long enough period of time? Like, I guess this brings like this, this, this other like, kind of more like deeper ontological question of like,

• 2:31:48Jesse Michels?

  are there like, reality gatekeepers? Like, these crashes happen and like, okay, maybe we have some immaculate constellation. The NRO has like, you know, first, first, first access, you know, eyes on all this stuff. Then maybe you have some like, OGA style thing with through the CIA. Maybe it's not OGA, you know, anymore, but like, you know, some rapid response teams or whatever. Like, you, say you have all of that, you would still expect some really hard, concrete proof in the form of materials ending up in civilian hands, like, at some point soon, you know?

• 2:32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:24Jesse Michels?

  So, yeah.

• 2:32:25Speaker 01

  I would hope so. I, I, I don't know how likely it would be that a bunch of civilians are going to come upon a crash retrieval. You know, maybe most crash retrievals occur today because the craft are shot down.

• 2:32:37Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that's the case?

• 2:32:39Speaker 01

  I think that it's like, it's likely many of them are, but then there's also like the donation hypothesis of craft left.

• 2:32:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:45Speaker 01

  For people and why aren't, why are those left in the middle of the desert and so forth? And, and then maritime crash retrievals that only, you know, like the Baltic Sea anomaly, if that's a craft that only like well-equipped, well-funded organizations are going to be able to retrieve. And I genuinely think that since the 1960s, that NRO and other combat support agencies like the NGA and then direct action elements like a tier one, or tier one adjacent assets and CIA elements and all sorts of intelligence and DOD elements will be first on the scene, even. Even halfway across the world.

• 2:33:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:19Speaker 01

  If there's a, if there's a crash in, in India, in the, in the mountains of India, I think the US is, is going to get there before any sort of, you know, local authorities or local onsite personnel.

• 2:33:29Jesse Michels?

  Do you think, like, why do you think the US is so far ahead of other countries when it comes to disclosure? Like, it feels like Russia, China have said very little about this stuff. Is it just kind of an open system, closed system?

• 2:33:42Speaker 01

  China will just kill you.

• 2:33:43Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:33:43Speaker 01

  And also, like, the, I, I think that the way-

• 2:33:45Jesse Michels?

  But why isn't the, cause like, more institutional, uh, components of the United States have started to push disclosure. Why is there no one in China being like, you know, maybe this would actually be good for us to have some sort of like limited disclosure. Like, we talked about the managed disclosure, people in the US, why aren't there equivalents in China?

• 2:34:03Speaker 01

  Maybe they're still on the back foot.

• 2:34:04Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:34:05Speaker 01

  Maybe they're still trying to adapt reverse engineered technologies to their ISR platforms in tonight airspace. Maybe they know because of just how spine and infiltration works that the US is far more advanced. So if they open up the can of worms and we have a global disclosure, sure, sure. Russia may have a couple Tic Tacs up in their mountains and, and China may have some recovered vehicles and made some progress in adapting electro-optic cloaking. But they know that we are the big baddies. And if, if the whole can of worms is open, we are positioned as a, the global superpower for the next 10,000 years.

• 2:34:36Jesse Michels?

  Interesting, yeah.

• 2:34:37Speaker 01

  It stands to reason if, if these countries know they're on the back foot, which of course they would be because there's been a lot of political instability in Russia and China over the years. Without the same sort of, of, of access and, and superpower leading that we have had. I, I mean, for example, the, the US has been the big bad political superpower. So, you know, with five eyes retrieval groups, we have elements all over the world where if a craft crashes, we probably get first dibs.

• 2:35:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Do you think, you know, cause you could make a flip side argument to that, which is like, you have strong men like Putin and Xi. Xi named himself dictator for life, I think in 2016 or something. Where there's this long planning element, this long time horizon ability to make decisions. You know, I think in China, it's like reinstate the sort of celestial empire in 2049, you know? And, you know, you know, obviously their plans to probably overtake Taiwan in like the, you know, the next few years, maybe. And, um, and so in the US, you, you have like, you know, this kind of, you know, temporary, this temp, you know, that, that gets into office, maybe they get two terms if they're lucky or whatever. Um, so do you, do you think, you know, there's John Alexander, who's

• 2:35:48Jesse Michels?

  in and around UFO lore, like, you know, up to his neck. And he, you know, he said that the majestic 12, you know, and like the elite governance systems around UFOs are kind of like, uh, almost euphemisms for continuity of government programs. So this idea that, you know, I think in Eisenhower's time, you had the 5412 Committee, which is this inter-agency coordination committee to kind of allow for plausible deniability if the president wanted some dirty work done that he didn't want to be involved with. That turned into, I believe, the 303 Committee, the Committee of 40. Do you think, and then we hear about people like Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, these types who like, if there

• 2:36:31Jesse Michels?

  was a government behind the government, those guys would be involved in that government. Like, Kissinger was doing all sorts of rogue shit, was playing Nixon like a fiddle. You could say the same thing with Cheney vis a vis Bush and American foreign policy. Do you think there's a government behind our government doing the long time horizon planning on the UFO issue?

• 2:36:52Speaker 01

  Probably because in the way legacy programs work, it's a parallel chain of, of command and parallel chain of oversight that exists right next to, you know, the executive branch, possibly partly within the executive branch, within US DoDIC systems, self-funded intelligence agencies. They can do what they want. They don't adhere to the whims of the president. Um, so by all intents and purposes, these, these, you know, if you look at Catherine Austin Fitz talking about 17 to 21 trillion dollars embedded in the US black budget just since like the 1990s alone, these, the legacy programs are Better funded, better technology, more powerful than the United States government. So this essentially is a shadow government and like a deep state for all intents and purposes. And maybe that is also why Russia and China are far behind us on the topic.

• 2:37:37Speaker 01

  There seems to be far more, a far more homogenous group within them. You know, Xi Jinping and Putin are like the monoliths of those countries. They are, those two are probably spearheading their own respective countries, reverse engineering and retrieval programs. The US, I mean, our, our government is kind of on its heels against this parallel system that can control these programs, that can harness US assets whenever it wants in theater or at home. Can fire on other blue assets and can fund itself better and faster and can infiltrate anywhere and can deploy men at arms. It's just, it's a, it's a very, it's very disturbing, the implications of the power of legacy programs.

• 2:38:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So we, we mentioned a lot of these places that probably house UFOs. And you talk about historical corroboration for that. What about places in the United States that house alien bodies? Are you confident in any of those locations?

• 2:38:32Speaker 01

  Probably by its description, that would probably be Dougway.

• 2:38:35Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:38:36Speaker 01

  That'd probably be the, one of the biggest places, as well as maybe like Fort Dietrich, Maryland. Wherever there's Batel and some of Batel's like biological focused FFRDCs, I can't remember the acronyms right now. But wherever Batel is located, I would highly believe that these are the places that where bodies are stored, you know? Historically, bodies were kept on ice at Wright Patterson flown from Roswell. But with the evolution of legacy programs, there are probably, there are, which is very scary to think about, there are probably laboratories that house deceased non-human biologics.

• 2:39:08Jesse Michels?

  Are you in touch with anybody who has seen an alien body?

• 2:39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:12Jesse Michels?

  And what do they say about the bodies?

• 2:39:14Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:39:15Jesse Michels?

  And are they cryonically frozen or like they're, these people weren't like abducted? They're like seen in a government context, like these bodies are being stored.

• 2:39:23Speaker 01

  Retrieval.

• 2:39:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:25Speaker 01

  What always.

• 2:39:25Jesse Michels?

  Or during a crash.

• 2:39:26Speaker 01

  What always comes up is the, the, the gray aliens. It's a very, like the wraparound eyes, almond shaped heads, large black eyes, gray, tan, brownish skin. It's, it's

• 2:39:37Jesse Michels?

  That's, that's the common

• 2:39:39Speaker 01

  Specifically in an egg.

• 2:39:40Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:39:41Speaker 01

  In a, in a manned egg that somebody was present for a retrieval for.

• 2:39:45Jesse Michels?

  So what about not on a retrieval? What about these bodies stored in military facilities?

• 2:39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, a place out in California.

• 2:39:53Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:39:54Speaker 01

  An unnamed place, a place that doesn't have its own designation. I, I don't even know who the heck runs it.

• 2:40:02Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:40:02Speaker 01

  Like one of those in plain sight things and like, like, you know,

• 2:40:06Jesse Michels?

  Can you say where?

• 2:40:07Speaker 01

  I, I, I'm not sure exactly where, SoCal.

• 2:40:09Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:40:10Speaker 01

  SoCal region, not Antelope Valley, but Antelope Valley probably deals with tech more, but um,

• 2:40:14Jesse Michels?

  And you think they're, and you, you feel confident in this whistleblower or not whistleblower, this person who's contacted you?

• 2:40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, yeah, that's the person I would like stake my like entire rep on.

• 2:40:27Jesse Michels?

  Can you say anything high level about them or?

• 2:40:30Speaker 01

  They, they don't, they don't want to be talked about.

• 2:40:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:40:32Speaker 01

  Not at all. And I gotta, I like, I gotta respect that.

• 2:40:33Jesse Michels?

  Sure, sure, sure. Did you get in touch with them or did they get in touch with you?

• 2:40:36Speaker 01

  I got in touch with them. This person's a personal hero to me and I just gotta,

• 2:40:39Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:40:39Speaker 01

  If they don't want to be talked about, I,

• 2:40:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a good sign that you're not, you know, I think you have to be skeptical if somebody inbound hits you up more than,

• 2:40:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:47Jesse Michels?

  If you reach out to them.

• 2:40:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Ninety-five percent of the people I speak to, I have sought them out. That person who I've, I talked to you about that was on a crash retrieval team or claimed they have, I, I spent a year trying to track them down.

• 2:41:00Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:41:01Speaker 01

  I spent, and they do not want to be contacted. This, it takes months and months to form a relationship with these people. I know it's a good sign when I contact them and I just, I, I'm usually really upfront with people and they just say, how did you get my name? Who are you? And stop talking to me.

• 2:41:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's like, they're not denying the claims, you know?

• 2:41:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:20Jesse Michels?

  They're like, they're clearly like, they, they know they're, they were involved in some crazy shit.

• 2:41:24Speaker 01

  A lot of them are smart and at first will say like, I have no knowledge or ex, but like, like what you would expect to find on the terms and conditions on, on,

• 2:41:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:34Speaker 01

  Like an agreement for an Apple product.

• 2:41:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:36Speaker 01

  I have no knowledge of extraterrestrials. I have not seen bodies, nor have I seen craft. I have not been to military installations or disclosed unauthorized disclosures.

• 2:41:45Jesse Michels?

  Yep. This is kind of a crazy question and maybe I'm, maybe this is self-defeating for me, but I feel like it's an important question to ask because It's hard for me to comment on my own stuff. I'm probably biased somewhat. And, you know, I want to respect anybody that comes on the show. Who do you think is the least believable person that's come on my show?

• 2:42:06Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good, that's a great question.

• 2:42:08Jesse Michels?

  Cause I can ask, you can gas me up all day, but I want you, I want you to, I want you to straw man.

• 2:42:13Speaker 01

  Let's chew through that, actually, because the, the top three best would be Grush, Malmgren and Dan Sherman.

• 2:42:18Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:42:18Speaker 01

  Those are the three best.

• 2:42:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:20Speaker 01

  Ah, okay, I'm trying to think.

• 2:42:25Speaker 01

  Who would be the least?

• 2:42:29Speaker 01

  I'm just trying to think who, like, who has the most grand claims without, uh, I'm, I'm, cause I'm trying to parse things into, uh, like, if, if they have testimony. I mean, one of them that, that's just kind of hard to even buy into just because he's, he's so matter of fact is, uh, Charles Hall.

• 2:42:47Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:42:48Speaker 01

  But that's also partly because he's, it can be difficult to listen, um, to like the droning on.

• 2:42:53Jesse Michels?

  Sure, yeah.

• 2:42:54Speaker 01

  About stuff for hours, uh, I'm, gosh.

• 2:42:56Jesse Michels?

  You weren't there, but, uh, I, yeah.

• 2:42:59Speaker 01

  Top four Beatrice as well is up there.

• 2:43:01Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:43:01Speaker 01

  Beatrice, because, you know, her, hers is so scientifically backed and.

• 2:43:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:06Speaker 01

  Her research is just beginning.

• 2:43:07Jesse Michels?

  So top four, yeah, as far as her testimony, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:10Speaker 01

  Excellent, excellent.

• 2:43:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, she's amazing.

• 2:43:11Speaker 01

  Autumn, gosh, I'm trying to think, who else? Of course, I'm also super partial to Randy. Just because I, I know Randy as a human and I like him very much.

• 2:43:22Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:43:22Speaker 01

  I'm very partial to, uh, Graham Hancock, just because I like his work outside of the space.

• 2:43:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I love Graham.

• 2:43:28Speaker 01

  Um, a classic, it's not an interview, the T. Thompson Brown.

• 2:43:31Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  It's a classic.

• 2:43:32Jesse Michels?

  That's like, I'm like, I'm as high conviction as anything on that stuff. I, I love that.

• 2:43:37Speaker 01

  Let me see. Uh, Kirk, oh, yeah, okay, the, I, because he bullied you, Stephen Greer. I completely, that's a great episode. It's interesting, but he bullied you.

• 2:43:49Jesse Michels?

  But the, so the weird thing with anybody, there are very few people, I think you're making this point, kinda, who are like fully full of shit, because even Greer has all sorts of personality issues. You know, and like, he's so much ego and like, would I want to be stuck in an elevator with that guy? No, I wouldn't. But you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, he, he's sitting on a lot of interesting information, anecdotes, like, he was before you. A lot of these guys kind of, you know, sitting in the black and a lot of these programs didn't have anywhere to go and they went to him.

• 2:44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I look at Greer almost like an Anakin Skywalker type character.

• 2:44:25Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:44:26Speaker 01

  He, he gave himself to the dark side by believing in his own theories instead of analyzing witness testimony to then burn so many people and expose so many people and hurt so many people. The, what he started off with, I think was incredibly noble intentions and true. Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a good point. Everyone's testimony, I gotta kind of look at and be interested in. I think a lowest credibility side of firsthand witness encounters right now for me is probably Charles Hall, just because I, it's, it's hard for me to sit through and parse that story.

• 2:45:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, that was a tough one. I mean, I, I sat through, you know, that was even longer than we, than we discussed, but I wanted to make it digestible for the audience. And it was, uh, I was like, this is, this is so like, he would just go on. At one point he goes, and I hurt my knee. And then the Tall Whites flew me from Area 51 to Area 52 and then Area 53. And I was like, well, you got, your knee got hurt and it was used to like, like, like a hell evacuate you out of like the range you were at.

• 2:45:31Speaker 17

  After I thought I'd broken my kneecap and then it healed up, there was the next morning when they came down to get me and take me up to their base at, they were up at Area 54, uh, 53 to see if I needed a knee, uh, surgery on my knee.

• 2:45:47Speaker 01

  And was this the Tall Whites?

• 2:45:49Speaker 17

  Yeah, only, and when I got up to the American generals were there and medical people were up there too. And I didn't, I just bruised it.

• 2:45:57Speaker 01

  Maybe it's similar to like a Jason Sands type story where there's an initial exposure that's interesting that there's some, something there and then they just continue to expand on it to where the story kind of gets out of control.

• 2:46:07Jesse Michels?

  I don't think you can easily, I mean, cause there are also people online saying like, he faked, he was not in the air force.

• 2:46:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:46:14Jesse Michels?

  BS. He wasn't in the air force and I have the right, you have his DD 214, you have certificates and stuff, like he was definitely in the air force. And so, and I think he was a weather observer and I think he was based at Area 51.

• 2:46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:46:26Jesse Michels?

  And then.

• 2:46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he was.

• 2:46:26Jesse Michels?

  And then beyond that, yeah, it's like hard for me to believe he was like hanging out with these beings for as long, but I mean, then there's clearly, he's very neurodivergent, you know, clearly. So it's tough. It's tough. You know, I, my point being. I would agree with you on that, but it's also pretty hard to definitively write him off also. It's like, you know, and there are people online trying to do that. I'm like, you can't do that either. You have to contend with the, you know?

• 2:46:57Speaker 01

  It's, it's just-

• 2:46:58Jesse Michels?

  They seem a little beyond belief to me.

• 2:47:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's frustrating is if he had encounters with beans on Area 51, and that was the extent of it, right? And maybe something like Corso said in his manuscript, where he encountered a trapped bean who said, "Hey, lower the radar so we can get out of here." That'd be more believable. But when, "I know the beans, I hung out with them, they flew me around." That's when it starts to-

• 2:47:19Jesse Michels?

  He had names for all of them, the teacher and the range for Harry.

• 2:47:23Speaker 01

  Like, who knows? Maybe he was exposed to them and just kind of got carried away.

• 2:47:27Jesse Michels?

  Well, what I used to mention Sherman as one of the top ones. Sherman, to me, couldn't have been more of a, you know, kind of opposite vibe of Charles. Charles Hall was like, too detailed. Like, he had an answer for everything.

• 2:47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:41Jesse Michels?

  I asked him random stuff about, you know, from physics to like their communication patterns, their dialect, like everything, the books they read, they read books, apparently they read, like all these things. But they weren't interested in the books on Einstein because they clearly had better, you know, they had better physics or whatever. It was like crazy stuff like that.

• 2:48:00Jesse Michels?

  Like, he had an answer for everything. Sherman, she, to me, pattern matched so much to somebody telling the truth because I would tell him like open source stuff that would support his testimony. You know, I'd be like, you know, this guy Noah Rodak actually FOIA'd, you know, this independent researcher FOIA'd Project Preserve Destiny, and the FOIA was sent to the Air Force and the Air Force forwarded it to the NSA.

• 2:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:25Jesse Michels?

  Basically, which if we can confirm his name wasn't mentioned, like, that's kind of a smoking gun that this program existed under the purview of the NSA. So, and he goes, oh yeah, cool. He goes, you did that? Great. Like, he didn't give a F. You didn't care at all. And it was to me, I'm like, oh, this guy's so comfortable in his own, like, he knows what happened to him. He's not trying to signal anything. He's the opposite of a Greer, who's constant. There's so much bluster.

• 2:48:51Speaker 01

  He doesn't have an answer for everything.

• 2:48:52Jesse Michels?

  Doesn't have an answer for everything, yeah.

• 2:48:53Speaker 01

  What, you and I have a mutual friend who has had decades of experience in electronics intelligence. And, you know, he sat both of us down separately and we talked both, we had both, we, you know, we didn't know, we had both spoken to him until yesterday, but.

• 2:49:07Jesse Michels?

  And I think we can say his name because he's on Twitter supporting Sherman.

• 2:49:10Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, Dan How.

• 2:49:11Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:49:12Speaker 01

  Yes. I talked to him at Seoul and he, you know, we were talking about Project Preserve Destiny and he's, he sat me down and talked to me for a very long time about how Dan Sherman's discussion of various ELINT systems and knowledge of ELINT systems and process of ELINT, electronic intelligence is just beautifully on the money.

• 2:49:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there you go. And like, just to be on to reasonable casual guy and would admit, would say, you know, I think of the details might be fuzzy here and I might have gotten that a little bit wrong or whatever. And it's like, you try remembering something, you know, moment by moment that happened to you 30 plus years ago. Good luck.

• 2:49:48Speaker 01

  That's like way getting 97. If he doesn't remember something, I say, hey, do you remember the smell? I don't remember.

• 2:49:52Jesse Michels?

  He doesn't remember?

• 2:49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:53Jesse Michels?

  And same Bob Lazar, same though, my details get a little fuzzy here. No, if they don't, then you're lying.

• 2:49:58Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 2:49:59Jesse Michels?

  That's a worse signal.

• 2:50:01Speaker 01

  It's just like Sherman showed such restraint, it's even say like, I don't really know what these beans I was getting downloads from looked like.

• 2:50:06Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Yeah, totally. And then what's wild is the base he was at, he took a photo of it and it's in above black. And I, you know, we reversed, me and my researcher, reverse image searched it and we figured out it's San Vito de Normi. And, and, you know, that, that's in, in southern Italy. And we called it out and he goes, yeah, that was the base. And so like, you write the book expecting for people not to be able to find it because you don't really have the internet, you know, in popular use back then at least. And, you know, now we did. So, everything keeps seeming to check. And then the final thing I'll say about that one is. You know, and I hate doing this, but a guy who is, doesn't want to go public also,

• 2:50:48Jesse Michels?

  but very high up in like extremely credible position, who I wish I could, I could say who it is. You can take it with as much of a grain of salt as you want.

• 2:50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:57Jesse Michels?

  You can, you can not care that I'm saying this, whatever. Um, but he corroborated a bunch of details around the Sherman story as well. So I, I, I really, you know, hold that in high esteem.

• 2:51:09Speaker 01

  It's, it's interesting that people are, have likely been interfacing with these non-human intelligence through telepathic downloads. That's really crazy, but it's really interesting and it, it holds a lot of, of water. Strange world we live in.

• 2:51:22Jesse Michels?

  Strange world and, and, and you know, do you know who Puharich is? Andre Puharich, early architect of MKUltra. He had these sort of machines that I think were kind of similar to what Dan Sherman was using, where you would hum a tone in your mind, match that to the tone you're hearing in these headphones, and that would get you into this locked in telepathic state. And he, everybody had this camp in, in upstate New York and all these quote unquote space kids would go up there and channel what he called the nine, these alien beings. And he was a contractor for the CIA.

• 2:51:55Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:51:55Jesse Michels?

  And that, so, and that work definitely became classified and went somewhere.

• 2:52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:00Jesse Michels?

  And I think it probably went into Project Preserve Destiny.

• 2:52:03Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:52:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:04Speaker 01

  So let me ask you this in kind of a similar vein, right? Right now, cause Chris Ramsey asked me a similar question. I thought it was a great one. Right now, if, if you were in charge of assembling five witnesses for the next congressional hearing to make it the best one that's ever happened, to deliver their testimony, it could be five minutes, it could be three hours. So what five people would you choose?

• 2:52:24Jesse Michels?

  Oof. Could they be just anybody? Like, like, like, yeah, anybody?

• 2:52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's, let's, yeah, yeah, let's go non-hostile witnesses. So you could be like, Bobby Ray Anman.

• 2:52:35Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Yeah. All right.

• 2:52:35Speaker 01

  So it's a separate question.

• 2:52:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:52:37Speaker 01

  Well, the separate question is top five people you deliver a fat interrogatory tour to, to, to basically extract their testimony.

• 2:52:44Jesse Michels?

  So they have good intentions?

• 2:52:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:52:46Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And like, could they like, say anything in the actual test? Because like, I would, you know, I'd pick somebody like Grush, but like, you know, it's tough. Cause like, half the things were like, he's like, you know, let's go to a skiff right now. And like, I'll tell you.

• 2:52:59Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, when people say Grush has no firsthand experience, go back to look in what Moskowitz asked David Grush. When Moskowitz said, do you have any exposure to overhead collection platforms depicting UFOs? Grush said, kind of danced around the topic, and then Moskowitz said, have you ever seen any overhead collection of UFO crashes? And he said, I would have to answer that in a close.

• 2:53:18Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 2:53:19Speaker 01

  So yeah, let's do full, open disclosures.

• 2:53:21Jesse Michels?

  So they can say whatever. Okay. I mean, that's funny, because I, my mind goes to some of the people who I think don't have the best intentions, but know so much clearly due to their background.

• 2:53:34Jesse Michels?

  I think people like, you know, I think Grush has like, kind of autistic attention to detail. You know, hundreds of pages that he gave to the ICIG, you know, Thomas Monheim, and like, has just like, programs, names, dates, like, you know, where the bodies are buried. So I'd say him.

• 2:53:51Speaker 01

  He could probably go through right now. He could probably deliver the exact, specific sectionals and years from which program names were first dreamt up.

• 2:53:59Jesse Michels?

  Definitely.

• 2:54:00Speaker 01

  Or first created, and he'd be able to name everything off the top of his head.

• 2:54:04Jesse Michels?

  I think, you know, I think Hal Putoff would be great. I think he's got way more knowledge than maybe meets the eye. I mean, like, it's like, you know, if he's saying definitively the 12 to 15 crafts, you know, on, on Joe Rogan, it's like, where are you getting that information?

• 2:54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and why, yeah, and where as well, if just 12 to 15. I reckon the 12 to 15 were just the ones he was exposed to.

• 2:54:28Jesse Michels?

  Totally, and he seems to pop up everywhere you look when it comes to like UFO science.

• 2:54:34Speaker 01

  And SI stuff.

• 2:54:35Jesse Michels?

  And SI stuff, which seems to be weirdly interrelated with all this.

• 2:54:39Speaker 01

  Remember what Grush said on JRE? You know, they, they start talking about remote viewing stuff, and David Grush says, well, what if the CIA started looking into this as a, or SI stuff as a possible solution to you serve as a key to unlock some stuff we have sitting around in a warehouse? I think that's one of the most poignant things he's ever said, that nobody's ever really, kind of, paid attention to.

• 2:54:59Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. So wait, so what would this, this would be?

• 2:55:02Speaker 01

  They were talking about Stargate, remote viewing, he and Joe, and. Grush proposes the question that maybe these these psi programs were taken on by the agency and other intelligence communities as a way to get it gain a better understanding over the craft technical vehicles we have stored in our warehouses.

• 2:55:17Jesse Michels?

  I mean, that makes total sense. We'll also look at put offs, you know, he's the founding architect of Stargate, all the psychic spy stuff. And then he moves on to like, the rest of his career seems really dedicated to the UFO question.

• 2:55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:55:29Jesse Michels?

  So there, I, that has to be connected somehow. And you hear a lot of rumors that there that there's somehow connected. And look, this is really weird, but like, okay, if the size stuff is real, which I think both of us think it is, remote viewing is a real modality, then what is happening in reality itself? Like, what, what, what is like the Archimedes lever of conflict? It's like psychic conflict.

• 2:55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:55:56Jesse Michels?

  Which is really weird, right?

• 2:55:57Speaker 01

  And the lever that, yeah, the, the, the system that allows remote viewing to work and operate it is really, it kind, it breaks my brain because I'm such a like logistic person to, to, to think about psi principles and stuff. It, it's such a huge quandary to me.

• 2:56:14Jesse Michels?

  Have you met anybody that discusses timeline management or the ability to see different timelines? Obviously Bob Lazar, you know, was briefed on Project Looking Glass.

• 2:56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:56:26Jesse Michels?

  Which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor, who, you know, has written about by day in a pasulka and kind of enters her life. He is part of this quote unquote, secret space program and, but he kind of thinks of himself as like a, a, you know, adjustment bureau timeline management person.

• 2:56:43Speaker 01

  So I, there's been a, you know, I think I've talked about it before, a testimony. I'm not really sure what to do with, because I don't, I really don't know how to act on it. And again, this can be taken as conjecture because it's just a claim, but it's somebody who claimed whilst they were in naval intelligence, they were part of a program that used like a sphere that was similar to Randy Anderson as a basically a remote viewing tool. But that this sphere was basically used to, I guess, like a Coagulate time onto the Planck scale, looking at at time as as frames of Planck scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines. I again, I don't know what to do with it. It's really complex.

• 2:57:22Jesse Michels?

  You know what to do with it? Send it to me.

• 2:57:23Speaker 01

  I'll send it to you because I it's it's very interesting. It's it's very interesting. But I again, I don't know the validity to it. I I've not even begin begun to start to vet that individual because it's just a really interesting claim that I I'm just not sure what to.

• 2:57:36Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:57:37Speaker 01

  I'll I'll send that. I'll I'll try and get that guy over here.

• 2:57:39Jesse Michels?

  Dude, I'd be I would I would be so fascinated. I mean, Matthew Brown also talked about some AI timeline management system that the White House has or whatever.

• 2:57:48Speaker 01

  But then that would that would

• 2:57:51Speaker 01

  give some pretty definitive examples about how the universe works, right? Because if you have an AI that can predict future events, we have a pretty deterministic universe, right?

• 2:58:00Jesse Michels?

  Either deterministic or you can kind of move between branches of the multiverse or something. And, you know, who know, you know, actually, Hugh Everett, who created the many worlds theories, you know, you Everett, uh, many worlds, um, he went on to work for the Pentagon in nuclear game theory.

• 2:58:18Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:58:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:19Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:58:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So maybe there's some sort of weird connection there where, I mean, this is really trippy weird territory. But like, I think the DOE like, so the UFOs and nukes book talks about like all these guys seeing sort of saucers, discs, you know, Tic Tacs orbs that seem to like often interfere with nukes. The DOE itself often feels like the center of a lot of people who having spiritual experiences. And so I I wonder if, you know, if you were to actually like say, like, the apocalypse isn't some fictional thing. Like, maybe like multiverse branching is happening all the time.

• 2:59:00Jesse Michels?

  And like, there's pruning occurring and there's certain apocalypses that happen, like in the three body problem. And then some survive or whatever, like the DOE would be like the center of that stuff.

• 2:59:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:59:10Jesse Michels?

  And so like, maybe they're like the most entangled with this like spiritual world. And it explains a lot of the UFOs and nuke stuff. And if you actually talk to Robert Hastings. I had this deep conversation with him and I was like, how many of these guys have had close encounters of the third kind where they see beings and they themselves have been abducted? Not just they're on the base, they've seen stuff or whatever. And he goes, uh, like seven or eight out of the 167.

• 2:59:35Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:59:35Jesse Michels?

  And I go, did you pull, did you pull them formally on this? They go, he goes, no, those are just the people who've like come out saying that. So in my mind, I'm like, there's probably like half of them.

• 2:59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59:47Jesse Michels?

  Or more. And he himself has had experiences as has, um, you know, Bob Jacobs, you know, a lot of these guys have had. Mario Woods, I found out had childhood experience. So it's like, the people who end up working in these programs are like closer to this like weird celestial realm.

• 3:00:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like I know guys who have worked in the program who are, have now like become far more spiritual because of their time in the programs. And it's really, it's really weird. Like guys who are interested in Diana Pasulka's work and like religious questionings and religious frameworks because of their time in the program.

• 3:00:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:21Speaker 01

  It's like, what metaphysical concepts or spiritual concepts are these people either directly or incidentally exposed to while in these programs?

• 3:00:28Jesse Michels?

  And then you have Tim Taylor telling Diana Pasulka, here's the hierarchy of being. And I think it's like alien or non-human intelligence, you know, or aliens or whatever, you know, human hybrids with the beings. Then it's like, you know, intel agencies or whatever. And it's like on down from there. And like, I'm like, how do you have, is this, do you think he's legit? Do you think Tim Taylor's legit? He's this NASA mission controller that seems to also pop up everywhere in this issue. Also seems to like know all the experiencers, like he knows Bledsoe. He knew Charles Hall.

• 3:01:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. You probably have better knowledge on this than I, cause you've spoken to the man, but it's.

• 3:01:07Jesse Michels?

  I wish I did. I wish I got more out of him.

• 3:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. He seems to be acting on the behalf of a faction.

• 3:01:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:13Speaker 01

  Hanging out and getting close with various people. What his deal is, I don't know. The thing that's most intriguing to me are the statements that he walks around with credentials from numerous intelligence agencies and organizations like NRO access, uh, various IC agency access. That's very strange to me. Or he can just kind of stroll in wherever he wants.

• 3:01:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's strange. And it's. I don't like like naming too many, too many names, but like, you know, especially if they're not like public figures generally, but I think Bledsoe doxed him and then Chris Ramsey kind of said it best with Tim Taylor, where he's like, if you want us not to mention you, like, stop doing spooky shit. Like, he just ends shows, like, he enters the lives of all of these experiencers.

• 3:01:55Speaker 01

  And gets really close with them. Like, didn't, isn't there photos of Tim Taylor at like football games of, of Chris Bledsoe's children or something like that? Like, he's really involved in their lives.

• 3:02:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

• 3:02:09Speaker 01

  Would Tim Taylor be the third one on your witness list?

• 3:02:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, again, here's the problem is the intersection between like, have some incentive to like not say everything and like what they know is like extremely high. So like, if it's like the truth serum test, yeah, like I do Tim Taylor for sure.

• 3:02:27Speaker 01

  Like, this platform, full unlimited disclosures of people who have expressed interest in, in some disclosure and they get the old truth.

• 3:02:34Jesse Michels?

  I mean, another guy on the good side, I think, or at least good side at the end of his life was Harold Malmgren. And I think he knew a lot more. And this was so sad to me because I thought we had multiple days of interviews that we could have lined up. We did our first interview. His health started to go downhill right after that. And so we were gonna do like four hours, like three days in a row or something like that. And, um, and then he said things to me that like, I don't think anybody thought that like,

• 3:03:04Jesse Michels?

  whoever the majestic 12 or group is like, had anything to do with him. I mean, it would kind of make sense that Bissell would be like a part of that or something. But he was then says on the phone to me, and I didn't even catch this when he said it on the phone to me because his voice is muffled and he's in the hospital on his deathbed, but he goes, that was when the CIA started tracking me. They put my name in some file. And he goes, them and the majestic. And then we had, we dubbed the whole thing because he had throat cancer 10 years before. And then I see it in the dub. I'm like, oh, like after he passed away.

• 3:03:51Speaker 18

  And I said, well, who had a record? It said the day that you met President M I T.

• 3:04:05Speaker 18

  That day, your name went in all the important books of talent. I have keeps.

• 3:04:15Jesse Michels?

  That, that, that who keeps?

• 3:04:17Speaker 18

  CIA.

• 3:04:19Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:04:22Speaker 18

  And not only CIA, but you know, all of my Jessica, all these guardians. They, they all took it on themselves to protect the world.

• 3:04:32Jesse Michels?

  It's like, what did he know? You know?

• 3:04:34Speaker 01

  With how quickly his health declined, it almost felt like he was willing to kind of let go after he was able to disclose some of that information. You know, you hear a lot of like, uh, family members of, of elderly loved ones who are kind of holding on to say goodbye to their loved ones. Or, you know, get a final word in. It seemed like him being able to speak about these disclosures with his daughter present, with his family present. It, it seemed like right after that, his health declined. I don't, maybe he was, it, that's just been something he was holding on to for so long.

• 3:05:03Jesse Michels?

  I think so. I think he was bottling it up and he really, I think he felt a little bad about some maybe like tangential touchpoints he had had with the program. And I think he just wanted to see more of this stuff out.

• 3:05:16Speaker 01

  I wish more legacy people had consciences like that.

• 3:05:18Jesse Michels?

  I know. I wish that too. And then I also, I understand if your family's being threatened.

• 3:05:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05:24Jesse Michels?

  If you're taking some anthrax booster and for all, you know, you know, it's like.

• 3:05:28Speaker 01

  Or you're threatened with inappropriate stuff on your like computer or to get your life ruined.

• 3:05:33Jesse Michels?

  Who wants to deal with that?

• 3:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05:34Jesse Michels?

  No. Yeah. So, but I, I, I do wish more, more people can. And honestly, you're like my biggest hope as far as like more stuff coming out. Cause I feel like you're in touch. You're as close to the metal as it gets, you know? Like if somebody has come out, like often I'll try to make some like beautifully produced thing with them. But I'm not really like, you're, you're really like on the front lines, trying to get people out over. Multi-month periods.

• 3:06:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:06:02Jesse Michels?

  And that's an impressive, I mean, you're really putting yourself in the line of fire and it's amazing, man.

• 3:06:06Speaker 01

  Well, I'd like to provoke more of a reaction from, from legacy people. Take a step, like, take more of a step against me and I'd like to see what happens. I'll put this as like a call to action for, for anybody who's had firsthand legacy exposure. Please contact me at [email protected]. I, my initial, my wish isn't to get people public, like to, to make videos about them. If they want to, and I've vetted them properly, sure, we'll do a project together. But my initial thing is to collect their testimony and get it to the right people of people who can act, perform, do actionable things with that testimony.

• 3:06:41Jesse Michels?

  And what's the goal at that point? If it's not to bring everybody out to the public necessarily, but it's to kind of force, is it like executive action?

• 3:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, executive administrative action. I think there can be an impetus where, you know, things like the, the administration, they have a preponderance of evidence and whistleblowers to where they need to take action and bring these programs under congressional oversight. And that is when a disclosure will occur. And I think that is when a, a disclosure of a non-human intelligence and active, and active programs to reverse engineer and exploit materials. But hey, we're doing this, but the technologies are still held up in the black budget. That's fine. If, if the US receives a disclosure that non-human intelligence is here, it's been interacting with humanity for a long time. Like Carl Neill says, we actively have crafts and we're actively figuring out how to work various systems with them. But we're not going to tell you exactly what we're doing with them because that's a national security concern.

• 3:07:33Speaker 01

  That is a fine medium for the vast majority of the American public. Like there doesn't, and I wouldn't even, you don't need to, it's the same thing with,

• 3:07:43Speaker 01

  kind of what, what most people talk about. You don't need to disclose the specifics behind the technology because you don't need the, bad faith actors creating a flux liner and ramming it into New York and creating it, and turning New York into a, like a wasteland.

• 3:07:55Jesse Michels?

  For sure. But I would say, I don't know, like, I think there are trade secrets, for example, with nuclear weapons. But nuclear physics is like 99% disclosed.

• 3:08:05Speaker 01

  Physics about like internal mass reduction and, and like spacetime bubbles and inertial dampening and stuff like that. That absolutely should be given to humanity.

• 3:08:14Jesse Michels?

  For sure.

• 3:08:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:08:15Jesse Michels?

  Like say if you figured out that this like, you know, the quantum gravity stuff is BS. And actually, gravity is, is not what we think it is. Because gravity has been this big question in physics for, you know, decades. Huge for like the world, for like our ability to like, you know, kind of manipulate matter and like make the world a better place.

• 3:08:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:08:33Jesse Michels?

  And like build, you know, engineering and, you know, medical devices and medicine and, and, and, and, you know, not be stuck on these Boeing 747s. 737s, the doors fly off, you know, like it's, it's, it's crazy. So.

• 3:08:48Speaker 01

  And, oh, I didn't mean to interrupt.

• 3:08:50Jesse Michels?

  No, no, no. I was going, I was ranting.

• 3:08:52Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say, and if, yeah, there's zero point energy systems that have been and could be exploited somehow, that is a, an absolute humanitarian crime to keep from people.

• 3:09:01Jesse Michels?

  It is. I mean, do you think we do have that? Cause that seems to be the implication of a lot of these, you know, Dylan Borland literally said, you know, the most classified thing, most sensitive thing is not the craft, it's the energy system.

• 3:09:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And didn't Jake Barber say with Ross Colthart, he knew about like zero point energy systems at the very end of the interview, or like just insane energy systems? I'm almost, almost positive he did.

• 3:09:23Jesse Michels?

  Wow. I don't know. I maybe, we talked about anti-gravity, me and him, so.

• 3:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And maybe anti-gravitic systems. It's, I, I mean, I think it's likely, again, my, I have very poor understanding of physics or some of this stuff. I just, I like the programs.

• 3:09:36Jesse Michels?

  See, I, yeah, I think my base case is they have some weird effects that they know how to get.

• 3:09:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:09:41Jesse Michels?

  Kind of in little experimental cases. I think the idea that there's a box that could like power the earth in a sustainable way. And it's like hidden in some like DOE National Lab or, you know, one of these, you know, containers that you've mentioned. I, I think that's ridiculous.

• 3:09:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 3:09:55Jesse Michels?

  I don't think that's true. If, if it is true, it is a travesty and like, you know, The Lost Century by Stephen Greer is like the most important documentary ever or whatever. But I just, I, I have trouble believing that. I think it's somewhere in the middle.

• 3:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:10:10Jesse Michels?

  Where you have these like physics effects that they've proved, like the Bifield Brown effect.

• 3:10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:10:15Jesse Michels?

  For example, that I covered, where like, I'm pretty high confidence that there's a there there. And you have Carl Nell who ran a $2 billion P and L, you know, CTO of, of like basically a Northrop subsidiary saying, you know, watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown.

• 3:10:32Speaker 01

  Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Townsend Brown and some other very interesting, uh, like heretical technologies. So I'd invite people.

• 3:10:41Speaker 01

  An unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts.

• 3:10:45Jesse Michels?

  You have the lead electrostatics guy at NASA, Charles Bueller.

• 3:10:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:10:49Jesse Michels?

  Leaving NASA and starting his own company, Exodus Space, based on propellantless propulsion, which he attributes to Thomas Townsend Brown. He's had access to a vacuum chamber for 20 years and like says he's replicated this like, you know, a ton of times. So you have so much evidence to me that that is real. And then even that, it's like, are you hiding? You know, I don't, I don't, even the line between that and then the Mark McCandlish, like alien reproduction vehicles, like we have workable craft that uses, you know, anti-gravity. I don't know. I don't know.

• 3:11:20Speaker 01

  I think, I think that at least copycat vehicles and like the, the subject of alien reproduction vehicles, I, I think that is definitely a thing.

• 3:11:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:28Speaker 01

  People often ask the question, if alien reproduction vehicles exist, you know, why are, why, you know, why is the F-16 engaging with enemy assets and not a TR-3B? Well, I, I think a strong argument can be made that with alien reproduction vehicles, there, there's probably a very select number and the technology is probably so sensitive and probably not adapted perfectly, kind of what you're talking about copying certain aspects and getting weird physics effect that these sorts of craft and these sorts of platforms are relegated only to the blackest of, of programs for ISR purposes. You know, I, I mentioned earlier, like, oh, the founding of the, and I, I just, I think the NRO is so important to this whole conversation of UFO legacy programs. The NRO was founded

• 3:12:08Speaker 01

  to get American intelligence in denied airspaces because we knew that nuclear war with the Soviets would lead to mutually assured destruction. So there was a, a huge advantage in, in defensive reconnaissance to find out where Soviet radar, Soviet nuclear sites and perform ISR of, of adversaries in denied airspaces grew like exponentially in importance. So, I mean, if you have a TR-3B that can travel to Russia instantaneously and then render itself invisible on any sort of, of detection system, whether it's radar, whether it's human eyes and to gather intelligence from a hundred feet away from a, a Russian ICBM silo, that is invaluable.

• 3:12:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, seems like it. And. I think the B2 stealth bomber was like the last classified vehicle that was then declassified. So, or am I wrong about that?

• 3:12:57Speaker 01

  Was it the B-21 Raider? Or was the Raider ever even like inherently classified?

• 3:13:01Jesse Michels?

  I don't think it was classified. I think we all know about the B-21 Raider and that's like an official thing. So, maybe I'm wrong.

• 3:13:07Speaker 01

  No, I think you might be right because there was the SR71, U2, A-12, OX cart.

• 3:13:10Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 3:13:11Speaker 01

  And now, of course.

• 3:13:12Jesse Michels?

  F-117 was classified for a little bit.

• 3:13:14Speaker 01

  Held that Tonopah test range.

• 3:13:15Jesse Michels?

  Yep, yep. And that crashed in Bakersfield in 1986 or something and then people started to... But I think the B2 was the last, like, classified then declassified. So, we've got to have stuff after that. Like, come on. It's not just like F-22s, F-35s, you know? We've got to have like...

• 3:13:34Speaker 01

  I think the strongest use case are triangles.

• 3:13:36Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I know numerous people who have seen triangles on launchpads at Groom Lake or, you know, Roger Castle, 150 feet away from a giant rotating triangle, whose characteristics are almost exactly similar to TR-3B.

• 3:13:52Jesse Michels?

  That, the triangle story, and that's a great thing you broke with Castle, like, that story comes up time and time again. There, even as like ancillary parts of other stories, like Randy Anderson, who you broke as well. Like, with Area 51, he claimed he saw triangles taking off from Area 51.

• 3:14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, electromagnetic triangles stored at, yeah, DOE-owned lands across the Nevada test and training range.

• 3:14:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Dillon Borland triangle, the Belgian wave were triangles, and I wonder if that, you know, had something to do with, you know, maybe that was actually just terrestrial tech, like, you know, American technology?

• 3:14:25Speaker 01

  I mean, Edgar Fuchet gets a ton of flak for not producing claims for his testimony. And, like, I get it. What's he gonna do, wheel a TR-3B out? But I still think his testimony has so much incredible juice to it and aspects and things that I think are inherently true. For example, back in 1998, Edgar Fuchet was talking about TR-3B.

• 3:14:45Speaker 01

  First, actually, operational models of TR-3B started to kind of fly around in the 90s. From the 70s until onward, it was prototype models. The pilots forum are out of the Navy Test Pilot School out at Pax River and the AFFTC out of the Edwards 412 test wing, which is something that I would come to believe as inherently correct with the testimony of Ed, the Lieutenant Colonel at the 412. So the Fouchet TR-3B is mind-bogglingly interesting. Additionally, he says that the propulsion system was reverse engineered out of Sandia and Lawrence Livermore National Lab. In my framework of UFO legacy programs with FFRDCs, this would make complete sense that high-trust, government-owned contractor-operated, where the technology is still proprietary government property, like a reverse-engineering propulsion system for internal mass reduction

• 3:15:30Speaker 01

  would be kept within the FFRDC, while contractors like Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Teledyne Ryan would be used as compartmentalized contractors on like the skin of the craft, the construction, all that stuff. Do we know that Edgar Fouchet worked at Area 51? Yes. So we have records of that? Yes. And then, anything else that kind of backs up the veracity of his claims? I'm particularly fond of his mention of the Men in Black with TREAT, the Tactical Reconnaissance Engineering Assessment Team, and how that kind of ties into weird things about like the Lichtenstein, Crown Prince, Hans Adams II, talking about Albert Stubblebine and his little TREAT project and stuff like that. Wait, what is this?

• 3:16:10Speaker 01

  There's an old, I gotta find it, because this was like a Hans Adams to Steven Greer, I think, email in the 90s, or maybe it was reversed, but Adams, I have it in my, I think it's my TR-3B video on Triangles, but Hans Adams talking about like a TREAT existing under Albert Stubblebine, who of course was head of US Army InCom and was obsessed with psychic spy stuff, and also was tasked with the Intelligence Support Activity, ISA, which is now a JSOC unit. What did he mean when he said "TREAT"? Like T-R-E-A-T, like a Men in Black-type thing. My brain is fuzzy on the exact context around Hans Adams saying Stubblebine and his TREAT

• 3:16:55Speaker 01

  organization, so I have to reference my video for the exact specifics, but that's an interesting thing. Fouchet was at Area 51. I'm trying to think, what else?

• 3:17:08Jesse Michels?

  I mean, the rotating, the spinning mercury was also mentioned in D-Glocke.

• 3:17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17:14Jesse Michels?

  You know, the Kommler Staub context.

• 3:17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17:16Jesse Michels?

  Where you had rotating spinning mercury, according to this Polish journalist Igor Witkowski. And you had Ernest Grauitz and, you know, this, uh, uh, kind of head of SS Medical stuff under Joseph Mangala. And, uh, or maybe he was actually Mangala reported, might have reported to him. I don't know.

• 3:17:34Speaker 01

  You might be right.

• 3:17:34Jesse Michels?

  And then, um, uh, who else? Oh, Walter Gerlock, this guy studying anti-gravity in, in the German context at a nearby university was also working on D-Glocke. So, and then they had spinning mercury as well. And then the Vimanas.

• 3:17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17:50Jesse Michels?

  You know, they're spinning mercury there. So maybe, maybe this is the latest instantiation is the TR-3B spinning mercury.

• 3:17:57Speaker 01

  Cause Fouchet was adamant that the TR-3B is not anti-gravity. It's internal mass reduction. It's to reduce the weight, the mass of the TR-3B by, I think, 89%. And then various propulsion systems propel it and it can indefinitely loiter, go in low Earth orbit. Uh, he said that the program was spearheaded by NRO, CIA and NSA, which of course, to me, that fully checks out. Um, I'm trying to think what else? Cause his, um, 1998 International UFO Conference or Congress, I can't remember what the acronym stands for. That 1998 presentation is fantastic. Cause Fouchet delivers his disclosures as well as like the amalgamation of his five close friends and sources disclosures on TR-3B.

• 3:18:40Speaker 01

  And he, Fouchet himself stated he had seen, uh, the craft twice, once in Edwards Air Force Base and once somewhere else. I can't quite remember. But, you know, if I, if I, if I had to bet on one derivative system that we have, it would be the triangles. I, I like, I'm so confident in the triangles.

• 3:18:55Jesse Michels?

  Shows up everywhere. Really does. What do you think of? Maybe we can, we can wrap up with this crazy story of Dan Barish. Because I find him so fascinating. So this is a story after Bob Lazar, but at S4 Area 51. And there's, there are these crafts and these beings. Who, who is he and what did he experience?

• 3:19:16Speaker 01

  So he's an alleged, what, microbiologist out at S4 who interfaced with the J rod, a recovered living extraterrestrial entity that was housed at, uh, seven, six layers under Area 51 S4, under all the weird craft storage and project looking glass and all that weird stuff. And, uh, that there was basically a containment sphere where he would go, uh, interface with this being and extract its blood for tissue sampling. And he gave like a super long documentary or interview talking about the exact biological systems of this creature's blood. It's either the greatest LARP of all time, or maybe there's something to it, or maybe it, I don't, it's either the greatest LARP of all time, or there's, there's something to it.

• 3:19:54Jesse Michels?

  Have you seen, I think his name's Brian Jackson?

• 3:19:57Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 3:19:58Jesse Michels?

  UFO researcher, and he gives a presentation on Dan Barish. There's some weird stories around Dan Barish where I think his like godfather was Mike McConnell, who was-

• 3:20:08Speaker 01

  Mike McConnell?

• 3:20:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he's director of the NSA. And like, there's something around Mike McConnell's son dying in like a freak accident. And I don't know if Brian Jackson's, you know, sure about this or what, but he thinks that it's almost like Mike McConnell takes in, Dan Barish is like this, like, you know, like godson, like really important person to him, and puts, places him on all these special projects and almost views him like a son? Like sees him as having like soul swapped or something with his son or something. Something's very strange.

• 3:20:41Speaker 01

  That's so bizarre because Admiral Mike McConnell is somebody I would say with almost like as high secondhand certainty as you could have was involved in the programs.

• 3:20:48Jesse Michels?

  This is where things get really weird because John Lear, uh, is on record saying in an interview, like, "I helped, you know, uh, get Bob Lazar a job at S4 Area 51 because this was this all, all part of this limited disclosure plan because we knew that we could, you know, um, Bob Lazar was discreditable. We could say that he owned a brothel and that he faked his educational credentials and all this stuff." And he said that he was asked to do this at the behest of a majestic 12 member named Mike McClellan.

• 3:21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21:22Jesse Michels?

  But I wonder if it's Mike McConnell.

• 3:21:24Speaker 01

  It could have been Mike.

• 3:21:25Jesse Michels?

  Because there's the S4 Area 51 connection with Dan Barish.

• 3:21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which, you know, even outside of Bob Lazar and Dan Barish, I'm like, fully convinced that S4 is a real place. And not on Tonopah, but S4 right by Pous Lake.

• 3:21:41Jesse Michels?

  I am too.

• 3:21:44Speaker 01

  Dan Barish, his story is so interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it. Brian Jackson's doing great work on Barish. The Night Shift Channel with Clint and Xander Jones, they're super into Dan Barish. And then when I was hanging out with Chris Ramsey, he showed me the most bizarre videos of Dan Barish and his wife. Like vlogs of the most weird, possibly agency-coded, like

• 3:22:11Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 3:22:12Speaker 01

  Things of all time where his wife will like show an orange crushed Shota and almost give like what seems like agency keywords or something.

• 3:22:21Speaker 01

  Implying maybe Dan Barish and his wife are absolutely bonkers, or maybe she's his handler. I don't know. The story is so bizarre. And there's a lot to chew through. That's why I'm glad people are doing good work and looking through his story. Because there's actually quite a bit to chew through. And of course, J-Rod, the story doesn't just stop there with Dan Barish, but also goes back to Bill U-House, who claimed at Area 51 auxiliary sites, there was basically

• 3:22:48Speaker 01

  ARV or Extraterrestrial Vehicle Simulator built off the Kingman crash. And that a recovered biologic called J-Rod was stored at one of the auxiliary facilities.

• 3:22:59Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Bill U-House said that before Dan Barish.

• 3:23:01Speaker 01

  I don't know if it was before or after, because I think Bill, the primary Bill U-House interview before he died was mid 2000s. And Dan Barish's interview was like 2003, 2004, right?

• 3:23:11Jesse Michels?

  I think that's right, yeah.

• 3:23:13Speaker 01

  So, you know, without knowing those dates for certain, Bill U-House could have just ripped off Dan Barish. But I'm not 100% sure on whose disclosures came first.

• 3:23:21Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's interesting. I mean, the fact that they're backing each other up, probably, I mean, who knows if it's uncorrelated, but.

• 3:23:27Speaker 01

  With all this S4 stuff, this is why we need Project Gravitar.

• 3:23:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we exactly.

• 3:23:32Speaker 01

  And this is why Luigi has to.

• 3:23:33Jesse Michels?

  Get your movie done, man.

• 3:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you and I both have a lot of faith in Luigi.

• 3:23:39Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:23:40Speaker 01

  The project is incredible, you know. I talked about how there are likely like underground sites, SAPF, STIF, subterranean facilities or DUMS built using disguised like foliage, disguised mountains, maybe even projections. And Luigi painstakingly tries to show how like foliage is rearranged around S4 sites and stuff like that to build a very compelling case of exactly where S4 is.

• 3:24:06Jesse Michels?

  And that's another thing where like Area 51 was barely, probably not ever really talked about before Bob Lazar.

• 3:24:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:24:14Jesse Michels?

  Then S4 definitely wasn't talked about. I think there's some argument that Area 51 was mentioned in some magazine or something, obscure magazine.

• 3:24:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:24:22Jesse Michels?

  Bob Lazar probably didn't have access to that. I think, you know, it's clear that he was there, but then the fact that, you know, if we're going to get any corroboration on S4 from that movie, that's a big deal.

• 3:24:32Speaker 01

  Right. And people like, some people like to try and say that Bob Lazar ripped off the S4 name off of Tonopah Test Range because just east of Tonopah Test Range is a, is an outdoor site called S4 that Janet Airlines, so Janet Airlines, the famous red striped airline, flies to Area 51, Area 6, which is by the Yucca Mountain Flat, which has a Lockheed Martin owned aerial operations facility that does work for DITRA, for DARPA, for like the NRO, the NGA, which is really weird, not, almost nobody knows about this Area 6. Again, it's on the Yucca Flat and has a Lockheed Martin aerial operations facility. It's super, super, super kind of like held lock and key.

• 3:25:14Speaker 01

  And then Janet also flies to Tonopah Test Range and Janet also drops employees off at Tonopah Test Range to the, or to the S4 site there. And apparently according to Lazy G Ranch, which is a great blog that actually tracks like FFA, Flight Radar and stuff of Janet Airlines and so forth, employees on the S4 area of Tonopah Test Range have to be taken there directly from Janet and cannot drive onsite like other employees at Tonopah can. That's a bit strange, isn't it?

• 3:25:40Jesse Michels?

  And another where we first hear about Janet Airlines, Bob Lazar.

• 3:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, because Janet Airlines, that's not a disputable thing. Janet Airlines is a, you can go on YouTube right now and look up Janet Airlines and look at flights.

• 3:25:52Jesse Michels?

  Was that publicly known before?

• 3:25:54Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 3:25:55Jesse Michels?

  Another interesting thing.

• 3:25:56Speaker 01

  I would go on the website oldestsearch.com and in quotations, do Janet Airlines.

• 3:26:01Jesse Michels?

  Ooh, I love that. That's a cool oldestsearch.com.

• 3:26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:26:03Jesse Michels?

  Good resource.

• 3:26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, to see if there were any early mentions of Janet Airlines.

• 3:26:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:07Speaker 01

  Because Lazy G Ranch does a very good kind of breakdown. So all across the Nevada test site, whether it's S4, whether it's Area 6, whether it's Tonopah, whether it's Area 51, the infrastructure is there, the underground infrastructure is there to house Alfred O'Donnell's craft, to house rapid reaction response teams that get in private jets and fly to go take care of retrieval operations, to house Bob Lazar and nine recovered craft. It has the infrastructure to do so.

• 3:26:36Jesse Michels?

  Where do you think things are headed with UFO disclosure? Do you think things are bursting at the seams and we get a lot more kind of spontaneous disclosure? Do you think we get some slow rolled managed thing? Do you think the subject dies out? What do you think happens?

• 3:26:51Speaker 01

  It's not going to die out. I disagree with Carl now quite a bit when he says that his current, the current like carefully managed 2017 originating disclosure campaign is kind of dead. Maybe that specific limited disclosure campaign, but I disagree with with sort of demeaning comments like that. I think, I think as long as you have somebody like Dave Gresh in a driver's seat actively pushing and actively engaged in the topic, things are looking good. I think there's a large, there's been an impetus in public opinion on the topic. More and more people are getting engaged and, you know, even though there may be some questionable characters in films like The Age of Disclosure and maybe some opinions I don't agree with and, you know, it might be framed a little weird. I do think documentaries like that are going to be great to get the public more in tuned.

• 3:27:36Speaker 01

  Because if people are watching like Marco Rubio, who, you know, UFO heads who are deep in the subject have known he's had an interest in the subject since 2017 and has employed his staff at the SSCI and others to go find more about whistleblowers for him. So that guy's a. Coward for not staking his political career when he's been well known into the subject since 2017. Maybe a coward is a strong word, maybe he just hasn't had an avenue which to to affect things. But he Marco Rubio is known about the topic. But for the the average Joe who might have seen Jeremy Corbell's Area 51, Bob Lazar and Flying Saucers, who might have seen The Phenomenon by James Fox, maybe they saw Unacknowledged by Stephen Greer and just have a passing interest in the subject and they watch Age of Disclosure and they see people like Marco Rubio talk about UFOs, maybe that's going to spark a lot of new interest in it.

• 3:28:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's going to move the needle on the topic. I think it'll be, you know, if the 2017 New York Times article was like, you know, this big jumping off point or whatever, I think this will be a force multiplier. I think James Fox's new movie Moment of Contact 2 or whatever will be this massive force multiplier. I think The Phenomenon itself, that first movie by James Fox.

• 3:28:43Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 3:28:43Jesse Michels?

  It's just such an amazing survey level overview gateway for so many people.

• 3:28:48Speaker 01

  That's what I tell people who are interested, if they're still grappling with the question of like, are UFOs real?

• 3:28:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:28:53Speaker 01

  I think The Phenomenon is a really good place to start.

• 3:28:56Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating, man. And then what do you think? Like, what's your, you know, fast forward 10 years from now, what do you hope you're doing?

• 3:29:06Speaker 01

  I would, I would love nothing more than to be involved with a transition of legacy programs into tradition of legacy programs into traditional oversight channels. I would love to be on teams that goes and inventories warehouses, housing craft and biologics and materials and bridging those clandestine programs, you know, still black budget, still protected by USAP, but back under United States control. I'd like to be involved in helping whistleblowers get basically reparations for maybe their VA disability that's been canned, stuff like that, help. I would like to be in an official capacity, helping

• 3:29:47Speaker 01

  pry legacy programs from the cold dead hands of people like Dick Cheney and Admiral Bobby Ray Inman and a lot of these old crones of the old guard who who don't want to, who are in these old boys' club, who don't want to relinquish control of legacy programs and bringing that to to

• 3:30:04Speaker 01

  under control.

• 3:30:05Jesse Michels?

  Do you think like, you know, just going back to like the kind of convoluted org chart or whatever? It feels so, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people watching this are like, how is that kept secret? Do you think maybe it's something like the three body problem where if the tip of the spear of science itself might be managed by like the beings or something? That like the, the, the org structure is somehow managed by them?

• 3:30:31Speaker 01

  Not necessarily. I think it's, I think it's very, I think it's, once you spend enough time looking at it, it's very rational how this is kept such secret.

• 3:30:39Jesse Michels?

  How many people in the US do you think know about, like, know pretty intimately about the UFOs?

• 3:30:45Speaker 01

  Intimately, a small number. I'd say hundreds in the, in the low thousands.

• 3:30:49Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:30:49Speaker 01

  Maybe a thousand.

• 3:30:50Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:30:51Speaker 01

  As far as like defense industrial based contractors who are exposed to meta materials who don't really know what they are, but it's UFO stuff, probably a larger number, maybe five to 10,000. So I'd say maybe 200, I'm going to lower my initial estimate of like 200 people with a good knowledge of the programs and even less with a historical knowledge.

• 3:31:12Jesse Michels?

  Yep. And. Do you think that those people are our best and brightest minds?

• 3:31:17Speaker 01

  Probably not. The best and brightest minds are, are, the best and brightest minds right now are probably at like, actually probably some of them are, they're probably at MITRE. But also a lot of them are being poached with competitive salaries by like Anduril and stuff like that.

• 3:31:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:31:35Speaker 01

  But I think that, I think that the, the reason this is kept so secret is, you know, it's, it's a lot more simple than, than people think.

• 3:31:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:31:43Speaker 01

  At every single layer of the programs, there are program protection strategies. You already have the US black budget. You already have, you already have SAPs caps and USAPs, almost impenetrable. You have, you know, no foreign, no foreign national stuff to even safeguard them further. You have carve out contracts with contractors. You have all sorts of stuff outlined by the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement. It's special nuclear material, foreign intelligence information and transclassified foreign nuclear information. You have personnel rotating from their position within ODNI to the MITRE Corporation or CIA, D S and T to the NRO, to the Ausstat. You have program protection agencies, you have the DARPA. You have the DOE OICI, you have the CIA, you have the NSA, you have directorates under the CIA,

• 3:32:26Speaker 01

  you have the DS and T. You can put the gabbosh on Lockheed Martin trying to get rid of materials. You have this rotating personnel agency. You have bigot lists of special access programs dealing with exotic materials where to keep the the program read on access small, you'll have people fulfilling dual roles. For example, this is something interesting I have been told. You might have a legacy program scientist who has to do a little bit of like accounting or personnel management stuff. So they don't have to read in more people. So people might do jobs lower on the ladder rung than them, but you know, never, never up. You're not going to have an industrial security guy who is also doing like lab technician work. Furthermore, there was a, from what I understand, there was

• 3:33:07Speaker 01

  an initiative in the early 2010s to cut off historical briefings on new, on new program incumbents. This would lead to even folks within FFRDCs like MITRE who are, who are being told, hey, you are working on detecting, exploiting, recovering, housing, recovered craft of non-human origin, presumably extraterrestrial, and hey, the bodies are stored over there in California, that they're still not briefed into the historical lineage of the programs and historical members who have worked on them, past successes, past failures, past facilities. So the compartmentalization is obscene. And like David Grush has said, it's all carryover from the Manhattan Project. And at the time, that might have been a good idea because he might have had Truman, you might have had

• 3:33:52Speaker 01

  Eisenhower, thinking, hey, what the, what, we're just getting into the Cold War after World War II. What the heck are we supposed to do with these alien spaceships flying around that have crashed due to high powered radar? And we now have their bodies. We need to treat this as nuclear secrets because this could shake the very foundations of this nation. And that spiraled out of control. So it is, it is very, and you know, that's not to mention other program protection strategies like psychological operations. You got DOD, your DODs of the world who are Paul Benowitz and people and so forth. So I also, I think this is going to sound maybe a little nuts, but I think there's a there there. I think there are people in the like pro UFO community on like Twitter and stuff

• 3:34:32Jesse Michels?

  Almost play up the dangers, like there are dangers, like I, I've been fucked with. You've probably been fucked with. I've had weird shit happen to me. But there are people where it's like the, all they talk about is how dangerous it is to like, look into this stuff. And I'm like, are you trying to deter like more people coming out? That seems like their whole beat. They're trying to circulate that as much as possible. It's like they want that to be a meme that's like embedded in your head. If you're ever thinking about going public, because there have been deaths here and deaths there. And you know what? There have, there have been some spooky shit has happened. But I don't know. It's like, if that's, if that's all you're talking about over and over and over again, I sometimes question. I'm like, are you some sort of operative or something?

• 3:35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, fear mongering to drive clicks. Cause yeah, same thing. I've, I've had weird.

• 3:35:19Jesse Michels?

  And are you trying to deter the next person from coming out? Because you're, you're talking about how spooky this whole space is like.

• 3:35:26Speaker 01

  I don't know. It drives engagement. People saying like, oh, you know, this horrible thing could happen or this.

• 3:35:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:35:32Speaker 01

  Scary thing happens. I, I, you know, I personally, I know you don't, I don't, I, I'm not going to dwell on.

• 3:35:38Jesse Michels?

  No, you can't, you can't.

• 3:35:40Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's useless. You're not going to get any work done.

• 3:35:42Jesse Michels?

  No, you're not.

• 3:35:43Speaker 01

  Just talking about the dangers of things.

• 3:35:44Jesse Michels?

  Be paranoid or whatever.

• 3:35:45Speaker 01

  Because you know, if you got on a podcast or if I got on a podcast and just talked about, I'm investigating UFOs and it's so dangerous. Like, look at me go. I've been threatened. Nobody really wants to hear that.

• 3:35:55Jesse Michels?

  No, it's solipsistic drama.

• 3:35:58Speaker 01

  Who cares?

• 3:35:59Jesse Michels?

  No one gives a shit. Yeah. It's like, do you want to get closer to the truth? Like, go for it. Do it, you know, or, or not, like choose another route or something. But no, there's a lot of like, uh, you know, it's like all about me, you know? And it's like, no, it's not. It's to be about the content.

• 3:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing as like, you know, I, I may be trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work. But it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine. And, and I, I understand the tip of the iceberg of the subject. I don't understand the physics. I don't understand the experience. Or I don't understand the, the biologics. It's anybody in this subject who also claims to understand everything is probably, is, is nonsensical.

• 3:36:41Jesse Michels?

  I think so. I think the best analogy is it's a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant.

• 3:36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:36:48Jesse Michels?

  And then it makes you think of disclosure in this entirely different context, which is like. The government clearly has a bunch of factions who like know a decent amount about the subject or have a lot of data on it and have done some really cool scientific things on this topic and often have tried to like weaponize the stuff, to be honest. But they don't have some like foundational ontological truths that they even have the ability to give you. Like, you know, it's like, what if like some rogue vigilante team, you know, that was interested in electronics intelligence outside of the government was like, we're going to create a little beep boop machine. You're going to like match the tones in your head. You're going to try to connect, you know?

• 3:37:30Speaker 01

  That'd be cool.

• 3:37:31Jesse Michels?

  That's what I'm saying. It's like, but that's, you know, stuff can happen in any context, government or not. There are things that there, you know, we don't have particle accelerators that we can just like build overnight, like outside of the government. But like, a lot of this stuff is way more like, you know, you just go out and touch the thing or get it, you know, more than you think. It's not this like cabal who's like controlling.

• 3:37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:37:54Jesse Michels?

  Everything.

• 3:37:55Speaker 01

  That's why Chris Ramsey had a very poignant tweet recently. It doesn't apply to me because of course I operate in my own lane of legacy programs. That's just what I like where he said, I would, I would rather talk to like a farmer about UFOs than like, you know, a former government person. And I think that's so valuable. We have, we have people like that that are focused more on the, the human aspect.

• 3:38:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:38:15Speaker 01

  The, the experience aspect. Cause I'm, I'm a lost puppy when it comes to that.

• 3:38:19Jesse Michels?

  Some of the most credible, I think witnesses are like, you find them, there's like, they have no like digital footprint, you know, they're living in the middle of nowhere. Like I was in Norway and I was talking to this farmer and he like sees a craft and it's hovering right around his house. And he's just like never gone public. He doesn't, he barely knows English. Like the most simple man you'll ever meet. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like assigning extreme high confidence to that. And then, you know, I think a lot of- On the government side, you have a lot of deception and lying and whatever. But then simultaneously to that, like, there are a lot of people who just put a minus sign. Like, you see A.J. from the Y-Files go on Sean Ryan, or you see Chase Hughes, or whatever. And it's like, these people aren't whistleblowers, they're government propaganda artists.

• 3:39:04Jesse Michels?

  And it's like, it is just as lazy to wholesale accept everything these people are saying as it is to put a minus sign on everything they're saying.

• 3:39:14Speaker 01

  Just because they had to go through Dobbs.

• 3:39:15Jesse Michels?

  Just because they had to go through Dobbs, or and because they, from like, an American, like, tactical, you know, geopolitical advantage perspective, like, don't want to, like, leak, you know, like, war secrets to, like, Russia or China.

• 3:39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, or go to jail for espionage.

• 3:39:31Jesse Michels?

  Or go to jail for espionage. Like, just because they're not Ed Snowden doesn't mean they're not a whistleblower. Like, like, you know, and then also, like, what about the meta question? So you think they're running a psy-op, you know, Chase Hughes or Sean Ryan? Like, figure out why they're running this out. Like, ask the, like, figure out what's going on. I think the Scylla in Caribb does is like, you know, you accept every, you go, you know, poor Paul Benowitz, but like, you accept everything, you know?

• 3:39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:39:59Jesse Michels?

  Or the other side, which is you, you, you don't take anything seriously. You don't take anything at face value. There has to be some, like, middle path.

• 3:40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think it's, it's such a tricky field to navigate because there are self-aggrandizers, liars, people acting on behalf of psy-ops everywhere. And then noble individuals who are just trying to, to speak truths, like David Grush, like Dylan Borland, for example, who I think is another one. So it's, it's just, it's such a complicated topic. I do, I do have, um, I know, I know people like Ross Goldheart have been a little pessimistic on the, on the subject of disclosure progression. I do have an optimistic view there, that we are heading towards a, a point of, hopefully not like CIA-sponsored limited disclosure of, of no mention of derivative technologies,

• 3:40:48Speaker 01

  but like, a, a more complete picture of our reality and what really interesting RDT and E programs within our own US DOD and IC have been doing for 90 years. I, I hope, I hope maybe, you know, this might seem like a full of stream, but I would love one day to be able to write or help write the textbook of the history of a legacy, of the legacy programs.

• 3:41:08Jesse Michels?

  That would be awesome.

• 3:41:08Speaker 01

  That, to me, would be, I, I could think of no more. Interesting. I would love to become a hermit up in the mountains and spend two decades just writing out the history of legacy programs.

• 3:41:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, I can't think of anybody more qualified. So I think.

• 3:41:21Speaker 01

  Maybe one day, maybe one day, far from it, though. I have just as much of a, I just have my own piece of the puzzle. You know.

• 3:41:28Jesse Michels?

  Just, just promise that if they hit you up and say, hey, you can be our official, you know, historian, that, that is contingent upon you being able to write stuff that goes public.

• 3:41:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't want to be like swallowed into the programs.

• 3:41:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:41:44Speaker 01

  Right? Just because that's kind of what I, what I stand against.

• 3:41:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I hope, I hope that happens. And I do think, you know, even the people trying to manage the thing or flood the zone or whatever, often their plans end up backfiring because you're just adding interest and eyeballs and like, young people are getting more interested. And that has its own momentum that's just going to snowball. And like, it's like, it's honestly like a classic, like, intelligence failure is like, you try to pull off these triple bank shots and, you know, they end up kind of backfiring.

• 3:42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Perfect example of there is Stephen Greenstreet trying to, trying to take down David Grush essentially, essentially by saying he struggled with PTSD multiple times after being in theater and experiencing the horrors of war and trying to say that he's not a credible witness because he has suffered from PTSD. And that backfires and, and that, that sort of stuff is.

• 3:42:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no.

• 3:42:41Speaker 01

  Does not work out very well.

• 3:42:42Jesse Michels?

  It's so bad. And like, guys, I think he was like, had a contract with the DOE or something at some point?

• 3:42:49Speaker 01

  Greenstreet has self admitted.

• 3:42:50Jesse Michels?

  The DoD?

• 3:42:51Speaker 01

  I think Department of State, where he said himself, he was doing soft propaganda videos for like, foreign nationals, trying to get them, like, trying to get them interested in, in basically US patriotism and nationalism.

• 3:43:02Jesse Michels?

  So yeah, that's a little weird. And he's constantly trying to provoke a reaction. I think, you know, and on that note of people attacking David Grush, you have a guy, I think his name is Basic Chris on Twitter, something like that. I forget his actual name because I don't think he's worthy of a mention here. But he went, he went, he went off on David Grush. Well, first I did an interview with Danny Jones and I talked about PTSD that David Grush suffered from. And I talked about a friend who was like, you know, mortared while he was, you know, in Afghanistan deployed. This guy was pounding the pavement on how David Grush, how, you know, I was lying or making this up. And that David Grush just had a friend who had committed suicide or something later.

• 3:43:47Jesse Michels?

  And that was the cause of his PTSD. And then somebody finally interject, I never engage with this guy, but somebody interjects and they go, you know, hey, man, actually this did happen. He talked about two different friends and he goes, oh, sorry. And it's like, dude, I mean, like, do you know how much pain you're causing to somebody who's like, you know, served our country? You think that's cool? Like, that's so accurate.

• 3:44:11Speaker 01

  It's the same people who said Randy Anderson was a liar because he suffered PTSD from his service in Jordan. And once he got out of the armed services, he, you know, he turned to substances to deal with the pain.

• 3:44:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:44:22Speaker 01

  And he got clean because he's, he's a strong man and he got his life back under him. But because he struggled with addiction issues, because of the horrific things he's faced in life, that means his testimony is untrue. It's the same people who say, oh, Dylan Borland looks nervous. So therefore he must be like neurodivergent and therefore he's being tricked and preyed upon.

• 3:44:41Jesse Michels?

  Who wouldn't be nervous saying what he's saying? It's, it's, it's, um, no, I think it's despicable. And I also, I want to flip the frame because a lot of people talk about grifters in the UFO space. There are grifters. I think one we talked about on the show, Stephen Greer. And, and, you know, he like will do CE5 cruises and charge all sorts of money for it. And it's, you know, it's kind of ridiculous.

• 3:45:03Speaker 01

  I think those tickets were 9K for the CE5 cruise.

• 3:45:06Jesse Michels?

  It's totally messed up, preying on people's credulousness, like not cool, right? But the grifters, at least you understand the free market incentives to grift. You're like, oh, you're sensationalizing to make money.

• 3:45:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45:18Jesse Michels?

  You're just as bad as, you know, any random used car salesman or somebody with, you know, some online course or whatever, where they're totally skimping you on what they're giving you value wise. Like, I get what's going on there. What I don't get is people like the two people we mentioned earlier. There is no free market incentive for them to hate as much as they do on all of the people coming out. They're chronically online. It's like they're these weird basement dweller types.

• 3:45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45:43Jesse Michels?

  And no one pays them. So who is, you're not making money. Nobody's even engaging with their content. So like if you're, why are you, you feel like, it feels like you're operationalized. Like who is actually paying you? Where are the incentives? You show me the incentive, I'll show you the action.

• 3:45:58Speaker 01

  Either that or, yeah. It's that or they get a, and probably it could be both for all we know, but also like a dopamine rush from giving a counterpoint to, you know, crap on American heroes.

• 3:46:09Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's so weird and like, you know, if, if you're, if you're, I actually am pro people being skeptical of, you know, if like a testimony comes out, you feel like it's not corroborated. Great, like, you know, come at it. I actually think, you know, the Dean Johnson thing, you know, if, given that he didn't know, have the knowledge of like the fact that, you know, Malgrin had the CIA background, was actually like decently, like rigorously like written up. Although I think it's like totally wrong on all the details. But like their room for skeptics are good. Like I've had Mick West on my show. I think, you know, he's, seems like increasingly just like a bad actor with the Beatrice stuff. But like, I do want skeptic, like skeptics are good, but like be a good skeptic.

• 3:46:53Jesse Michels?

  Don't like be, don't go after the person's service when like, that's obviously like just real. The service is real.

• 3:47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:47:01Jesse Michels?

  Go after the testimony and say like, you know, we think that's kind of weak or something.

• 3:47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, counterpoints of their argument and testimony. And then, and then let's, and then debate those.

• 3:47:09Jesse Michels?

  Yes. But like that, yeah. Yeah, don't go ad hominem. Like, if you're going ad hominem to that extent, that consistently, without any clear incentive to you, like, you're not getting paid from a free market perspective, and you're spending all day doing this stuff. You have to, like, who's actually paying you?

• 3:47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, and, you know, worst case, they're just trolls who like sowing discourse on social media and infiltrating, like, a UFO Twitter, which, obviously, there's a lot of different personalities, a lot of people pushing different things, and just going, obviously, completely anti against the grain and cropping on people that many people are interested in their testimony and studying, and, like, it's a weird space.

• 3:47:49Jesse Michels?

  It's definitely a weird space. Well, yeah, we should focus on the aspirational feature, which is, you know, hopefully, we both get to take a ride in the UFO at some point.

• 3:47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, please.

• 3:48:01Jesse Michels?

  The world gets disclosure, and you get to write the official UFO Legacy Program history. UAP Gerb, this is always such a pleasure. I always learn so much from you, and, please, everybody go subscribe to the channel, UAP Gerb. Anything else you want to kind of promote here?

• 3:48:18Speaker 01

  Gosh, I don't know.

• 3:48:19Jesse Michels?

  Whistleblower is your email, so anybody who wants to...

• 3:48:23Speaker 01

  If you have firsthand exposure to UFO Legacy programs, please email my Proton mail, [email protected]. Again, the goal isn't to get you on camera, or just blindly feature your testimony, but let us talk, let me take your testimony. I mean, I will fly to you in person if your story is credible enough and undergoes a strict vetting process I've done before. Take your testimony, record it, and try to get it to the proper folks, and if you've been met with reprisals, record those as well to try and get those to people who can assess those reprisals and hopefully get that solved. It's not a joking thing, it's not a serious thing.

• 3:49:06Speaker 01

  It's a very serious thing if you've had firsthand exposure. Please, please contact me there.

• 3:49:10Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. Subscribe to his channel too. It's like the most hardcore, best UFO channel online. Also his Patreon.

• 3:49:17Speaker 01

  Oh yes, please. Yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't have the time to do like exclusive Patreon stuff, nor do I want to gatekeep any of my stuff. So the Patreon, I don't gatekeep the, any content. It's only to support the channel if you, you think it's, it's worth something. If you don't support it on Patreon, please go like and subscribe the project.

• 3:49:37Jesse Michels?

  The guy's making three hour deep dives, you know, just like, like the fire hose of information. So just, you know, that deserves, in any other context, you'd have to pay for that. And, you know, you're nice enough to just put it, put it out. Because this is a topic that I think it's, it's probably hard to kind of, you know, put behind a paywall. But yeah, I think you, you deserve as much sponsorship as you can get.

• 3:50:03Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, man.

• 3:50:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, man. All right.

• 3:50:04Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Jesse.

• 3:50:05Jesse Michels?

  It's been a blast. Absolutely.

• 3:50:26Speaker 08

  In this life, you can't win.

• 3:50:28Speaker 07

  When the world gets you down.

• 3:50:29Speaker 08

  No!

• 3:50:30Speaker 07

  Escape to Pluto TV.

• 3:50:31Speaker 08

  This is objectively fantastic.

• 3:50:33Speaker 07

  Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free.

• 3:50:37Speaker 08

  Shwing!

• 3:50:37Speaker 07

  Even our news is uplifting.

• 3:50:39Speaker 06

  You stay classy, San Diego.

• 3:50:41Speaker 07

  Watch School of Rock, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more.

• 3:50:46Speaker 18

  We're not worthy!

• 3:50:48Speaker 07

  The best things on TV really are free.

• 3:50:50Speaker 18

  You just have to know where to look.

• 3:50:52Speaker 07

  Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.