Frank Shamrock Uncaged: From Abuse & Incarceration To MMA Legend

He grew up in poverty. His childhood was marred by savage abuse. Violence soon followed. And it wasn't long before the prison doors slammed shut. His future, it seemed, was cemented. But Frank Shamrock didn't just find a way out. He transformed himself wholesale. This is his story. As unimaginable as it is inspiring, it's a tale about the fortitude required to face a set of circumstances so dire, a state of affairs so poisonous, it would have buried the best of us. Instead, Frank prevailed. With the support of the father that adopted him, he ultimately transcended inconceivable obstacles to emerge as one of the world's greatest mixed martial arts fighters — a heroic pioneer of modern combat sports. Dubbed The Legend during the emergent era of MMA, a time in which there were no gloves, no weight classes and basically no rules, Frank was the first true breakout champion and widely considered the sport’s first complete mixed martial arts fighter. He was the world’s first UFC Middleweight Champion. He was the first Mexican-American MMA Champion. And when the dust settled, he walked away from his career with four world titles, two world records (for the fastest championship victories in history) and the only athlete in sports history to win every major league title in MMA. Post-retirement, Frank has had successful runs as a fight commentator, a fight promoter, a UFC and Strikeforce spokesperson, a public speaker, an entrepreneur, a mentor, a philanthropist, and the author of two books, Mixed Martial Arts for Dummies* and his memoir, Uncaged: My Life as a Champion MMA Fighter* (with a foreword by Mickey Rourke). Frank's accomplishments in the cage are amazing. But what is far more compelling is the extraordinary journey he undertook to overcome his past. This a conversation about that journey. It's about how he did it, and what can be gleaned from his experience that can inform how we perceive and approach our own limiters, both external and internal, to achieve our potential in any area of life, irrespective of circumstances. Frank calls it the Shamrock Way. I call it unleashing your best, most authentic self. You can call it whatever you like. I ask only that you listen with an open heart. Podcast is also viewable on YouTube here. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I just changed what I truly believed about myself. I went, wow, I am a criminal and a liar, and I'm gonna change it. Like, that was it. And I think most people don't ever sit down and write that down. I've done a lot of good things, and I've done a lot of bad things. But it's like, I think when you face them and you move through them, I think when you're prepared to address them. I call it the secret life. Everybody has, you know, the life they live out here, then everyone has the life they live inside.

• 1:33Rich Roll?

  That's Frank Shamrock, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:47Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:51Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. How you doing? What's going on? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. This is a podcast, my podcast. So good to see you guys today. Really quick, before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to take a moment to thank everybody out there who checked out the new edition of Finding Ultra, the new revised and updated version of my memoir. I'm super proud of it and just so glad to hear that so many of you out there are enjoying it. But for those of you who have been waiting patiently for the Kindle edition, you may know we've had some bumps along this road. That release was delayed for a bunch of completely confounding reasons, but it is finally available on Amazon. And the good news is, I'm told it's available worldwide. I'm also told that

• 2:36Rich Roll?

  if you purchase the original version of the book in Kindle format, that you can auto-update that version without any additional purchase. However, some of you out there have been having issues with that, with that updating process, and I'm told that it will all be worked out very soon. I'm told a lot of things. And I know there have been some kinks in this system. All of this is out of my control, and I can tell you that I'm doing everything I can on my end to get these issues resolved as quickly as possible. So thanks again for your patience. Also, The Plant Power Way Italia, our new cookbook, brand new cookbook, is on the horizon. In case you missed it, I posted a fun little trailer video for the

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  book on Instagram and YouTube the other day. It's the first of a few versions that I'm going to be sharing over the coming weeks. People seem to enjoy it. Got a few laughs out of it, lots of interest in me growing a mustache, so I guess I'm going to take that to heart. In any event, the book really is amazing. If you enjoyed our first cookbook, The Plant Power Way, I really think you're going to dig this one. It will take your kitchen next level, and it's available for preorder now on Amazon or wherever you buy books. And it would mean a ton to us if you place that preorder today. Preorders are super important in influencing bookstore purchases and visibility and long-term viability of the book, so I would greatly appreciate it.

• 4:01Rich Roll?

  And thank you very much for that. Did I mention I have Frank Shamrock on the show, the great UFC champion? This is a good one. This guy's story is unreal. It's inspiring. It's a story about transcending an upbringing marked by abuse, violence, poverty, prison, really a set of circumstances I think very few could overcome to ultimately become one of the world's greatest fighters, a true pioneer, really a legend in the world of modern combat sports. And Frank's story, what was required of him to face and conquer his past, his demons, his challenges, I think is as instructive as it is electrifying.

• 4:52Rich Roll?

  Okay, Frank Shamrock, dubbed the legend in the early days of mixed martial arts. Frank competed in this emergent era of MMA of UFC in which there were, there were like no gloves, no weight classes, basically no rules. And Frank was the true first breakout champion and widely considered the sport's first complete mixed martial arts fighter. He was the world's first UFC middleweight champion, the first Mexican-American MMA champion. And when the dust settled on his career, he walked away with four world titles and two world records for the fastest championship victories in history, and as the only athlete in

• 5:34Rich Roll?

  sports history to win every major league title in MMA. In recent years, he's been a fight commentator, a fight promoter, a spokesperson for the UFC and Strikeforce, a public speaker, an entrepreneur, a mentor, a philanthropist. He has a nonprofit called Shamrock Way and an author. He wrote two books, Mixed Martial Arts for Dummies and his memoir, Uncaged. All of this is amazing, but what is most interesting to me is the extraordinary journey he undertook to get to this place, overcoming a childhood and a past that I think would have broken the best among us. So this is a conversation about, it's about the human spirit. It's about Frank's journey, how he did it, and really what

• 6:16Rich Roll?

  can be gleaned from his experience to break through the limits we impose on our own potential to achieve excellence in any area of life irrespective of circumstances. So let's talk to him.

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  Cool dude, you ready to go?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:34Rich Roll?

  Let's do it, man. Nice to finally meet you Frank, thanks for coming out to do this.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, same here.

• 6:39Rich Roll?

  You first came across, I'm not like a huge fight guy, like I know a little bit about MMA and I've had a, I think I've had a couple fighters on the show before, well I'm friends with Mac Danzig, who's been on the show before. But I think you really kind of came on my radar when my friend Ryan Holiday's book, He Goes, The Enemy, came out and the whole like plus, minus, equal theory, which was eloquently described in that book. That got me interested in you and your background and then I saw you on our friend James Altucher's show, who is the person who connected us. And in an additional sort of cool little small worldism, that same day that you did

• 7:22Rich Roll?

  the podcast with James, right after that, he had Anthony Irvin on, who you took a picture with him, who's a friend of mine, who's been on the show as well, and he was super stoked to meet you, I know that.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's cool.

• 7:35Rich Roll?

  I was in New York a couple of months ago and did James's show and Steve and his producer was like, "You gotta meet Frank, you gotta meet Frank." So here we are, man, psyched to talk to you. So let's, I think, let's just start at the beginning, man. You have a fascinating background and I think above and beyond just your pure athletic accomplishments, which are extraordinary, what I'm most interested in is how you overcame all the obstacles that you had to face growing up and even more than that perhaps is how you've kind of channeled what you've learned and the experiences that you've had to benefit other people. So let's unpack it.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, let's see. What I have now is an awareness of kind of what's going on and what I realized as youth is I had no idea what was going on.

• 8:28Rich Roll?

  Of course, you don't have any perspective at that time.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, zero. And you grew up in your environment and mine was just jacked, I mean it was completely jacked, unbeknownst to me. So all of my talents and skills were just completely wasted and just erratic. But as soon as I got into this martial arts lifestyle and I started living and kind of... Developing this way of understanding how to live. Then then everything changed for me. Then I had a whole life. I had a whole existence. I had real friends. I had real family. I had real community. And before all that was not really in existence. It was just kind of this fragile thing that semi existed. So the minute I became successful and the minute I got stable, you know, I thought like, gosh, we need to do something like we should try to like flip this and help people.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  And that's what brought me into teaching of the martial arts and kind of developing that side of my person. And that was like the best thing for me was just teaching martial arts, like connecting with people through teaching. And because I was so passionate about it, because I was so, you know, in belief of it that people, you know, they loved it. They followed me. They learned, they were, you know, interested in it. They were compelled by it. And it was a valued study because at the end, both we learned how to kick everyone's butt, you know, and create this amazing fighting system. But we also created this, you know, format for a living that's super successful.

• 9:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  And that's the plus minus equal thing.

• 9:56Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. Is that, is that like the core of like, what is that blueprint?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  It's everything that happened to me in my martial arts journey, which is one day I showed up at a martial arts school and I was taught like the basics of discipline and respect and honor. And like those were as a young man, the stuff you see in movies and you're like, oh, that's amazing, but you don't really believe it's true until you're bowing to somebody and they're beating you down. And all of a sudden you're like, wow, that's real stuff. So it just all of those sequential steps of the stuff that I learned is this way that I call the warrior's code, the way I think about things. And that is, you know, if you, it doesn't matter what you approach. It doesn't matter business, life, social, if you, you know.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  If you enter it with certain principles and ideas about yourself and about the situation, you can do whatever you want with it. You can make it bad, good, you know, you can achieve your mission, you can give it away, do whatever you want.

• 10:57Rich Roll?

  But none of that can exist without understanding discipline and, and really harnessing willingness, right? Like you have to be willing to do the work, right?

• 11:08Speaker 01

  You gotta show up.

• 11:08Rich Roll?

  And you can't bestow that upon an individual. That has to be a self-generated notion.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  That's all from inside. That's all personal. And I call it divination. I call it the moment you go, oh, I'm an idiot, or oh, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm ready, I'm not, I'm, whatever the decision is. For me, it was, I was sitting in prison. I was like, oh my goodness, I'm all those things they told me. I thought I was.

• 11:33Rich Roll?

  Right. There's an honesty, like a willingness to look in the mirror and really be honest with yourself about where you're at, as opposed to fronting.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And in fighting, it's so easy, because you get to face it on a daily.

• 11:45Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, the most, you know, immediate, you know, dose of humility you could possibly have.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Get immediate feedback, daily. You're, oh, okay, that's not working. That's bad. You know, that's of not value. And then when you compete, you get the same immediate feedback, both physically and then socially.

• 12:00Rich Roll?

  What's amazing is that you even, you're even sitting here. I mean, you know, like you were, you were destined to become a statistic, right? And I would imagine there's people even that, that had the fortuitous occurrence to fall into a martial arts school after having weathered something similar to what you had to go through and still don't make it out, right? So why do you think you were able to, to, you know, to, first of all, be able to hear what was being said to you, to be honest with yourself about where you were at, and then exercise the discipline to get to work and rebuild your life?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  I mean, I didn't hear it until the end. Yeah, till I was in prison and I was like, okay, I'm doing the math.

• 12:45Rich Roll?

  There's no way out.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  There's literally no way out. Like, I was like, what about this? They're like.

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  Well, you could have been a career criminal. You could have just been a, you know, in and out, in and out of prison.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  You know, my, my first stepdad, Joe, was, was this Irish dude. And he was like, work it, get it done. And, you know, he taught me, I came from this hippie family of whatever, do it. We, you know, don't worry about anything. We'll live off the government and just kind of chill.

• 13:08Rich Roll?

  Well, let's go back there. I want to, I want to kind of really understand, you know, those early years. So what was it like? What was going on?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Well, my, um, my mom had, uh, four kids by the time she was 19, 19 or 20. And she came from a Jehovah's Witness, you know, community, which was basically her mom had run off with a preacher at some point who was a door to door guy. And all of a sudden she went from middle aged, you know, or middle class, you know, wonderful going to school existence to living in this, you know, Jehovah's Witness culture.

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  Was that, were you in the Bay Area then? Where, where was this?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Um, this was in Los Angeles. So I was born in Santa Monica.

• 13:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, okay.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  At the UCLA Medical Center. And, um, but then my mom moved up north and she moved to Redding and Anderson, California, which were like small towns. I'm assuming to get away from the religion and get away from the whole, uh, culture. And then, uh, so I grew up, what my first memories were in, um, Redding, California, which is like a small rural town.

• 14:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  In central California. And, you know, we lived in the projects. We were like, you know, just welfare kids.

• 14:17Rich Roll?

  And then, uh, and, and so, you know, at some point it, it becomes kind of a bit of a nightmare, right? Like abuse and, you know, getting locked in the closet and all these things that, you know, I read about as I sort of dug into your story. I mean, you know, it's, it sounds like horrific.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know any of this. To me it was, um, I had a wake up moment when I moved in with our stepdad Joe, you know, I was like eight or nine, uh, maybe I was eight. Um, and you know, I remember he, him directing me in the closet, you know, get in the closet, you know, I remember the first consciousness coming that, uh, he was putting me in the closet. Um, unbeknownst to me, I found out 30 years later, it was my mom. My mom was, since I was a baby, putting me in the closet. And it was like this thing, you want to act out, it will shut you down. And it was very effective.

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  Were you the oldest or where did you fall?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  I was the, um, last to youngest.

• 15:11Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  So I have a younger sister and I have an older brother and I have one older sister.

• 15:15Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, I was last to youngest and I don't know what the deal was. I think I, I had a lot of energy. I think because of my athleticism and stuff, I think I had more energy than others.

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  Right. And she didn't know how to corral that. So like locking you in the closet.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  She didn't know how to shut it down. So she, she put me in the closet.

• 15:33Rich Roll?

  And then how long after that before you start kind of getting in trouble?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  It was about seven or eight. I think it's because my brain just turned on. Like all of a sudden I was conscious and I was conscious of these barriers and things that were happening. And, um, and I see it happening in my daughter. She's now very conscious. She's nine and she's like bing, she understands what's going on.

• 15:54Rich Roll?

  She's online now.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  If I started locking her in the closet, she'd be like, yo dad, what are you doing? She'd be insane. So, um, it was right about this time that I started just, I couldn't control myself emotionally. It's like seven or eight, eight and a half. And I would just fall apart. I would go to do things like athletically or socially and I would just have these, you know, social breakdowns, mis- emotional breakdowns. Um, so I, I was seeing all these shrinks and therapists and like outside people, um, to help me. And I, I, nobody knew what was wrong. I didn't know what was wrong because I didn't know that being locked in a closet was not normal.

• 16:28Rich Roll?

  Right. So when they're saying, what's going on at home, you're like, it's fine.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  What are you talking about?

• 16:32Rich Roll?

  It's normal. Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  In the closet.

• 16:35Rich Roll?

  Did the shrinks come in because of school?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I'd have these breakdowns at school and I was excelling. Like I'd be getting straight A's, but then there'd be some confrontation or some physical moment that I couldn't come physical deal with and I'd freak out.

• 16:49Rich Roll?

  Right. Were you getting in fights that early?

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Fights, yeah, yeah. People picked on me because I was a victim of abuse. Like if you picked on me, I would freak out, you know, because I didn't want to be abused.

• 16:59Rich Roll?

  So that buttons is getting pushed and you're just reacting?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was very young, so I didn't know. You know, I just knew that when it was time to defend, you know, you just went all, you went all in.

• 17:10Rich Roll?

  But that's interesting. You were a good student though, nonetheless. You were able to like.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Silly, smart. Yeah, I could, I read all the books. I went home. I was like a super nerd. I went home, I read all the books. I, you know, I would show up in class. I knew everything. You know, I was like, I was the kid disrupting the class because I had nothing to do at home. You know, there was no TV. There was no social interaction. So I went home, I read the whole book.

• 17:31Rich Roll?

  Right. So when did, when does, when do you get into scruffs with the law?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  That was about nine, about nine, I started getting in, yeah.

• 17:42Rich Roll?

  What, like shoplifting or like what were you doing?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would shoplift. I would shoplift alcohol. I would, you know, go into a store and drink alcohol in the back. Like I would steal things. Stealing was.

• 17:53Rich Roll?

  Do you think like, looking back on that now, is that, was that some form of a cry for help? Like, like an unconscious desire to like.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think a pushback on the, the stuff, you know, it wasn't, like it wasn't normal. I didn't feel good. I didn't feel good. I felt good stealing things.

• 18:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Like I felt good about that. Like I was totally fine.

• 18:14Rich Roll?

  No, no moral dilemma over that?

• 18:16Speaker 01

  I was like, this is amazing. I got this stuff and then I'd get in trouble and be like, but that's so wrong. Because I really felt, like I felt okay.

• 18:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  That's how messed up things were.

• 18:27Rich Roll?

  I mean, in, in, in the, in the household, so you're getting locked in a closet. I mean, was the, was there some physical abuse, sexual, like what was it? What was the?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  An overabundance of emotions and people freaking out and you know, you get hit. You'd kneel in the hallway for hours. You know, Joe had us kneel in the hallway. We'd kneel on your knee and put your, put your nose on the wall for like four hours in the hallway.

• 18:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  And then the world would go on.

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  That's a different kind of discipline.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the world would go on around you and you'd just be kneeling in the hallway. And like if you sat down on your heels, you'd get screamed at. So it was like a whole, you know, and he was, you know, the poor guy went to Vietnam as a young man, you know, fought his heart out and came back and everyone hated him.

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  He turned alcohol into demons.

• 19:11Rich Roll?

  You don't, yeah, you don't, you don't treat your family that way.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was kneeling in the hallway when I was like nine years old, you know, thinking about my punishments. And, you know, and coming from a, from a family before that, that was without a father, without leadership. And my mom was like, do whatever you want. We're hippies, you know, we, you know, have fun. It just completely, you know, made me, you know, push back.

• 19:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And did your mom, how did, did your mom survive that? Like how, is she around now?

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Mom's still alive. She's in East Texas and she's chilling.

• 19:45Rich Roll?

  So, uh, all right. So you're shoplifting, you're stealing booze and stuff like that. It's at some point though, like juvenile hall kind of enters the picture, right?

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I eventually stolen some weed from my neighbor's pouch on his 10 speed. Cause I knew that he was selling cause his, but the younger brother told me. And we ended up getting arrested at the pond or park or something. But I got 11 days at the, what was that? Yeah. I got 11 days at juvenile hall. And that was the first time that I got taken away from my family. And, yeah. And that was the first time where I was like, talked to other kids about, you know, what was going on. Cause these were all the bad kids.

• 20:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  So I was like, ah, bad kids.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  How we doing? I was checking in and giving them, you know, here's what's happening. They were like, are you kidding me?

• 20:34Rich Roll?

  Like, oh, yeah, I read somewhere.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  What are you talking about?

• 20:37Rich Roll?

  Wait, you don't get locked in a closet?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  I'm like, you're not living in the backyard in a tarp. And they're like, what is it? What's they're like, what are you talking about? And it was the first time where I was like, I had no idea that that wasn't happening to other kids.

• 20:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  And that they weren't, you know.

• 20:51Rich Roll?

  It's just your normal.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  That was my normal.

• 20:53Rich Roll?

  And is that, is that when you kind of got the speech about, hey, listen, if you keep getting into trouble, you're going to have to live here all the time? And you thought, well, that doesn't sound so bad.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was, you know, the, and I'll never forget it. They were like, listen, if you continue to do this, we'll take you from your home. And I was like, ah.

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  That sounds good.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Thank you. Like, wow, what do I, what do I need to do? And then they followed up with, if you continue to do stuff exactly like this. I was like, this is amazing. I know exactly what to do. I was 11, 11, 11 years old.

• 21:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think they now call that the, the school to prison pipeline.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:30Rich Roll?

  You were on a, the turbocharged ride right into the heart of that.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:35Rich Roll?

  So how, how long do you end up, how much time do you end up spending throughout your youth in, in juvie?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I went in and out. So I went from the crisis center to foster care, to youth, youth home, to group home, and then to work camp, and then to youth prison was kind of my journey.

• 21:54Rich Roll?

  Right. And so how old were you at that point?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  So I was 13 when I got to youth camp, which was one step before youth prison.

• 22:03Rich Roll?

  Right. And so, you know, paint me the picture, like, what's, what's a day in the life in, in that experience all about?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  It just, I was, I was a young kid. I had no idea what was going on. And they would just move me from place to place. And I'd meet new families and they were nice. Like they were, you know, at that time, it was a religious based community that was kind of supporting that side of social services. So it was Christian Science and it was Mormons. It was all these wonderful families. And I'd show up and just train wreck them. I felt so bad. In hindsight, but I was just traumatized. So I tried to fit in. I tried to figure it out. I tried to. You know, integrate and then something would happen and I'd freak out emotionally and I'd break, you know, I'd escape, I'd steal something, I'd steal a car, I'd steal the van, I'd take everybody in the group home, I would do something just completely jacked to make sure that they would come get me and move me to the next place. And then each time it would be

• 22:55Rich Roll?

  It would escalate.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Increase in security and increase in, in, you know, lack of resources or lockup, you know, resources. And each time it would be closer to, you know, what I realized would be prison.

• 23:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And are you, were you getting like any kind of psychiatric or psychological help along the way? Cause clearly like this pattern is emerging and you need help, like you need somebody to talk to. And they're just kind of shuffling you about, right? Hoping for the best when they're not, they're not, nobody's actually confronting like what's making you behave that way.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  There was no resources for that. And that was, that was thrown back on the families, you know, they were providing that support, you know, to kind of be families.

• 23:37Rich Roll?

  Right. So, all right. So playing it forward, then what, you know, how does this play out? Like you're, you, you, basically you just, you're in this cycle of like increasingly, you know, worse and worse situations in terms of your behavior. But like, you know, where are you at 18 years old? And, you know, what's going on at that point?

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Well, when I was 16 and a half, my son was born. And then within, within six to eight months, I was in prison, jail and started going on to the kind of youth prison thing.

• 24:07Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. What'd you do that time?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I, I was stealing stuff. I've just, I was just a wreck of a, like, I was just a wreck of a human being.

• 24:19Rich Roll?

  Stupid bullshit.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was, it was just about being a wreck of a human being. Like it wasn't about anything. Like it wasn't making money. It was just being. You know, as as bad as I could be for whatever reason.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, I was seventeen. I got arrested for stealing a bunch of stuff. And then I went to youth jail. And then they put me in jail afterwards. And then basically they're like, listen, you're seventeen, you're an emancipated minor, you're married. Because you're emancipated minor. And you're going to be tried as adult. So all this from moving forward is going to be adult time, adult actions and adult commitments. And then, and I thought they were like the same old stuff. I was like, yeah, whatever, you know, eh, go on the game.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  So it wasn't like, oh, shit just got real.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't real until I was in prison for about a year. And I did all this stuff and wrote all the things, told all the stories. And I was like, wait a minute. They're serious. Like, I'm not gonna get out for, you know, another two and a half years.

• 25:21Rich Roll?

  So what prompted you to start kind of journaling and and getting real with yourself?

• 25:28Speaker 01

  It was my son's birth. It was him being born. I'd never had a father. Like, I just never had anybody there. And then Joe came along, but it was weird and adversarial. And I wasn't like connected to the father-ness. And it wasn't until I was in my, you know, when I was thirteen to fifteen, that I had a dad. You know, Bob Shamrock came along and I was like, oh, I got this father figure. So when my son was born, I was like, this is my only chance to influence his life and be a dad. Like, this is it. And I'm in prison. And I was like, that's like all this stuff that just happened to me. And I go, dude, I have to change that.

• 25:59Rich Roll?

  You're just gonna repeat that.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  That was it. I go, hey, what am I doing? I'm like, I'm my dad. And I was like, ah. So I just, I opened up the notebook and I was like, no. I go, how do I change it? And first it was, how do I get out of it? Because that was what I was taught. And that didn't work. So then it was, how do I take responsibility and figure it out and move forward?

• 26:20Rich Roll?

  It's interesting that you decided to just start writing. Like, where do you think that impulse came? Like, just there was nothing else to do? Or like, this is the only thing that you actually have control over is to start?

• 26:31Speaker 01

  I think it was my first voice. I think it was my first communications that were real. Cause I was writing down what was real. In the beginning, it was just all the horrible stuff that was happening. What am I going to do? And, and then it was, how do I get out of these things? And then it was, you know, real plans. And then it was legal writs. How do I get out of this, you know, with the law and how do I use the rest of it?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  But I also, you know, once I sat there for a year and I was like, I'm not getting out. Like nothing I can do, say, there's no, because before I could show up, I could dazzle them. I'd be, listen, I was locked in closets. You don't understand how terrible it's been. And they'd be like, wow, that's really terrible. You know, we should help you. And after about, you know, four years of that, people were like, no. You know, you've stolen everything done. You're not, so what you say you are. So it became my responsibility to say, to be what I said I was. And so whatever I wrote down, I was like, I'm going to be that dude. I'm going to go to school. I'm going to do the thing. I'm going to be honest. Like I'm going to, you know, I'm going to tell the thing.

• 27:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, but there had to be, like, there was an impulse inside of you that was telling you like, I'm not this guy. I don't need to continue down this path. I mean, I think a lot of, for a lot of people, probably I would imagine most people, that system just breaks them down. And then they're just, I'm a piece of shit. And this is what my life's going to be like. And they just sort of, you know, wave the white flag and, and just take it, you know? But there was something inside of you that, that had a vision for a different life.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And a part of it was I would see my friends come. And they're the same friends that were at the beginning of the cycle. And we'd all be in prison together. And be like, whoa. It's like, it's happening to him too. It was like, it's, it's right there and I could see it. And it, it, it became the example of like, this is what you're not supposed, like you're not supposed to do this. You'll be so done. And then, you know, I had somebody. I had Bob Shamrock.

• 28:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you had Bob. So you had met Bob earlier, right?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I was 13 or 12, almost 13, I went to his group home.

• 28:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And so he was taking kids in and he was training people to be fighters.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Well, not necessarily. He was just training to be athletes.

• 28:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  But he did have that ritual of if you had beef with somebody, you dealt with it.

• 28:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  And that was in the swimming pool.

• 28:53Rich Roll?

  Right. In the pool?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you literally put the gloves on and everybody stood in a circle and then you went at it. And then you guys hugged it out. And the rule was that when it was over, you hugged it out and it was over.

• 29:05Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So when you were there, when you were 13, how many kids were there at that point?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Twenty, 21, 22.

• 29:13Rich Roll?

  It's kind of amazing that he was taking kids in. Like, what, I mean, what compelled him to, you know, begin doing that?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  He was, those were his kids. You know, he couldn't have kids. I mean, his wife tried and, you know, um, he was deeply religious and, you know, he grew up in LA. You know, his dad had a textile mill and business was very successful. And they, you know, he saw downtown, you know, and the homelessness and he always wanted to help that community. So when we couldn't have kids, he was like, these are going to be my kids. I'm going to start a home. I'm going to help the kids.

• 29:44Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  And originally they were just going to be, you know, the kids, they weren't going to adopt them. They weren't going to, you know, make them family, family.

• 29:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  But, um, you know, when his marriage fell apart and his wife left, you know, that became his family. We became his family.

• 29:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's amazing. So you have that experience and then?

• 30:02Speaker 01

  It was crazy. We were a giant family in a huge van. It was the craziest thing, you know, you could imagine. We were like the Wild Boys.

• 30:09Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Uh, but it was all with the goodness. Like, you know, we would clean up the parks, like we would play the football team. We would play the cops. You know, we were, he believed like through athletics and through like family and like, you know, accomplishment. Like you could, you know, really do anything, like you could build anything.

• 30:27Rich Roll?

  So when you, when you finish with prison, how do you end up back with him? Like, did he come and get you or?

• 30:34Speaker 01

  He never left. So he always advised me and he always visited and wrote me and sent me, you know, money and encouragement and, you know, you know, kept track and, um, you know, and he also advised me. You know, he was the one who was like, what are you going to do? What are you gonna do? And I was like, I don't know. I mean, like, what do I got? The only thing I got is this body. And I built up this body. I've done this thing. And uh, cause he really believed in athletics and bodybuilding. And uh, he always guided me on that path. So I spent those three and a half years in prison. You know, super nerding out on bodybuilding and lifting weights. So by the time I got out, like I was 220. A solid, all natural, you know.

• 31:13Rich Roll?

  How much like yard time did you have? Like, could you just work out all day? Or like?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  I mean, you get it. You get it by law, because I'm a super nerd. By law, you get an hour a day if you're in beneath maximum security. So I got an hour a day, minimum. But I would get three and four hours a day. Plus, I would always work in the kitchen. So I made sure I could have the calories to support what I was doing. And I was working out. You know, hour and a half, two hours a day, six days a week.

• 31:40Rich Roll?

  So like an hour in the yard, but then back in your cell also pushups and that kind of thing?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Hmm. I didn't do a lot of uh, extra like calisthenic stuff at that time. Until I got into my minimum security stuff and I was running like a fire crew and like a whole other team. Um, in the beginning, I just lifted weights like, cause I was also in level four. I mean, Charles Manson was like one yard over. When I first got went down, I was like 18 years old. I got to Corcoran and they're like, yeah, Charlie's over there. I was like, what are you talking about? But I just lifted heavy um, until, you know, for, for three years. And then, and I got to minimum security. And then I kind of changed my whole structure. But what I would do was I would stretch. I would always stretch. And try to keep myself limber. Cause I was packing on muscle. It just went.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  It was crazy. Cause all you do is sleep and read and, and lift weights and.

• 32:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Walk around the yard and flex your muscles. Like, there's nothing to do.

• 32:39Rich Roll?

  And I would imagine there's a lot of energy going into, you know, alliances just to survive, right? Like who you hanging out with, who's watching your back, who's back are you watching? Like all that? I mean, look, my only, you know, frame of reference is what I see in movies and on television or other people that I've had on the podcast. But yeah, you know, that's gotta take a psychic toll.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty real. And I, I mean, I grew up alone, obviously, you know, with and without family. So um. And then when I went, when I first went to jail, like I didn't know that I was brown. Do you know what I mean? Like, everyone around me, my white, my mom, my mom, everybody was white. So I thought I was kind of white. And then when I first went to jail, they were like, listen, man, you can't just be hanging out with white people. Like, what's your race? And I go, well, everyone around me is white. And I'm like, yeah, you're brown. So in the beginning, they were like, you're Mexican. And I was like, I don't know, man. I don't really like, we're not like Mexican. So when I went to prison, I was encouraged to hang out with the Mexicans. And I was like, I'm not Mexican. So I went and hung out with the Indians, with others, because they're of a culture

• 33:44Speaker 01

  that's just, you know, whatever you are, you are. If you're Hawaiian, you're Polynesian, you're Indian, you're in that group. And that, I think, made it a little bit easier and a little bit more challenging for me when I was doing time, because I was easily attacked in that group, because there's not a lot of power, there's not a lot of strength in that group.

• 34:12Rich Roll?

  I can't imagine, man. I mean, it's, it's just so crazy that you got through that, you know? And then ultimately end up with Bob and you come out 220, what, you were jacked up.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  I was, he's, I was two, I was probably 218.

• 34:26Rich Roll?

  218.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  218, you know, I'm 510. Just all natural, just ah, huger than huge. And, you know, when I got out, Bob, Bob picked me up and he basically gave me this, this super dad G pep talk. And he's like, listen, you've, you've screwed up your life, but, he's like, you've just made this huge commitment. And he lined off all these things that I did when I was in prison. He's like, you got educated, you went to college, you know, you lifted weights.

• 34:51Rich Roll?

  Right, you went to college in prison, right?

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I went to college in prison, like, I had all these things. And he's like, and you, you know, you could fix sheet metal and cars. And because I was like a super nerd, I was locked up. I was like, I'll take everything, I'll do anything to get out of here, you know? Because I didn't realize I was screwing up until I screwed everything up. And then I was stuck. And then I was like, oh, hell no, and I was gonna get out. But, you know, he's like, listen, you could... You could be an athlete, like you could be a performer, you could do this, you know? And by the time my brother had just had a successful career as a stripper.

• 35:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  So he's literally-

• 35:22Rich Roll?

  This is Ken, right?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  This is Ken, yeah. So he's like, "You could be a stripper like your brother." He's like, "He made a ton of money," and he tells me the whole story, and I'm like, "Okay." And he's like, "Or your brother's also doing this wrestling thing now." And it's totally taken off, and he kind of breaks it down to me. And it makes it sound like it's sport, wrestling, grappling, fighting.

• 35:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  And I'm like, "Okay." So I get out, I have two days out, and then the second day, he drops me off at the dojo. And he's like, you know, he's like, "What are you gonna do?" And I go, "I'm gonna be a fighter. I'm not gonna be a stripper. I can't. That's ridiculous."

• 35:52Rich Roll?

  And just for clarity-

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Other than good strippers. But I was like-

• 35:55Rich Roll?

  Well, you could have some short-term cash, you know?

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had this huge long hair, so, I mean, I totally, I could see where he was coming from.

• 36:02Rich Roll?

  Like the Chippendales thing, right?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could see where the money was coming from, but I was like, "I don't like, you know."

• 36:07Rich Roll?

  Can't do that.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  I can't do that. It was just not me.

• 36:10Rich Roll?

  And, and so, just for clarity, Ken is Bob's adopted son, who then becomes your adopted, adoptive brother-

• 36:19Speaker 01

  And first teacher.

• 36:21Rich Roll?

  Because Bob adopts you.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then first teacher and trainer-

• 36:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  For fighting.

• 36:26Rich Roll?

  And, and it seems like this all happens pretty quick.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:29Rich Roll?

  Right? So you go to the dojo, and was it immediately like, "This is my home"?

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Um, no, it took me a long time to get adjusted to it. Because, I think because I'd just come from prison, so I had this very closed, you know, I was living in books and the special world and working out all day and flexing on the yard and living this other existence that's a very sub-world. And then, when I got into the fighting thing, it's a whole other sub-world, where you, there's no time to do anything else. Like, you just focus everything on the thing, and then you're always tired and exhausted. So I just tried to show up, like, and like, not die. And I think- People appreciated that and then I think people were turned off by it. Cause I, I looked like a tough guy, but I didn't know anything. So they would just beat me up and, you know, I was, I was a waste of space when I first started.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Cause I looked like I could had value, but I had zero.

• 37:23Rich Roll?

  You're walking around like you know, you got all the answers, right? But you, it's not like you were a wrestler in high school.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  No, I did nothing. Yeah. I never made more than like two days of wrestling camp and I'd get thrown out. Cause I'd get in some fight or something terrible would happen or some, you know, emotional breakdown or something ridiculous. So yeah, I never made a sport longer than a week.

• 37:46Rich Roll?

  And so what kept you in? Was it just, this is the only thing I got going?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was it.

• 37:50Rich Roll?

  It's this or nothing.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  It was it. That's all I had. You know, and I thought, okay, wait, I could get out and I could use these sheet metal. You know, certifications that I got, or I could go do this thing that I got, but I'll never have that thing. Like I'll never, and my thing was, my dream was to be a world champion. You know, my dream, you know, there was a few moments in my life where I remember complete clarity. And those divinations where I was like, this is what I'm going to be when I become who I want to be. And that was watching boxing at the foot of my stepdad's bed. And watching him fight and win and then, you know, be a champion and then deliver a moment. You know, and have everyone be focused on that moment. And like, I just remember that. And I was like, I'm going to be that guy.

• 38:37Rich Roll?

  So you had, you held that vision, even though you're getting your ass kicked.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  And even when I was in prison, even all through this journey of like, of living in the streets, like eating out of trash, all this stuff. I was like, you don't understand someday. And it was deep, like there was no efforts towards it until I got out of prison.

• 38:55Rich Roll?

  So what do you make of that? I mean, where does that, where does that come from? I mean, I think a lot of people would just be like, you know, my life's gonna, this is my life and it sucks.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  But I, yeah, I think i- i- if you never give up on that thing, then it's totally worthwhile.

• 39:13Rich Roll?

  But to even have the idea to begin with.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  But everybody has the idea.

• 39:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Everyone has the idea.

• 39:19Rich Roll?

  You think so?

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I ask my daughter in the mornings, what do you dream about? And she tells me. And they're the same, they're the same dreams. She wants to be next to Zendaya, dancing and singing and do, you know, hitting the movements on Disney Channel. Because in her world, that's where she got inspired. So it's like, all she wants from me is to create that.

• 39:41Rich Roll?

  Right, but she has.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Give me next to Zendaya.

• 39:43Rich Roll?

  She has your support. She has you saying, well, let's like, make this happen, right? Whereas you have the world beaten down on you.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I also developed and got into this system. And martial arts was the first one.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  You know, martial arts was the, was the family.

• 39:58Rich Roll?

  So when you hit that dojo, are you thinking, well, I'm gonna, even though you're getting your butt kicked, like, I'm gonna make a career out of this? I'm gonna find a way to make money? Or you, I mean, you must have thought, well, I can go do this and learn. I'm getting my ass kicked, like, I gotta make some cash. Like, maybe I should do the sheet metal thing on the side, or, you know, at least get something else going on.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  I honestly thought it's all there was. Because I also knew, like, who's gonna hire me? I'm gonna have like 24 felonies, like, you know, it's like ridiculous. Like, there's no, I have no real qualifications for anything other than teaching people to beat people up and helping inspire people.

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  The thing is, like, there's, there's something so powerful about just being all in. Like, you're just all, there is no other route. There's no plan B. Like, this is what I'm doing, even though, like, I'm just learning and I don't know what I'm doing, I'm getting my ass kicked. Like, I'm here.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think that's what the beauty of the whole system is and how it works. It's like when you show up. It's like when I show up and I humble myself to a mentor, you know, who, who sometimes has been.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  I've been a fan of, or they've been a fan of me, or like, there's all kinds of roles that we play. But to show up to a plus and to be like, listen, man, I'll, I'll clean your floors, dude. Like, show me the thing and I'll, I'll, I'll be over here, you know, I'll serve you.

• 41:24Rich Roll?

  Right. You, you have to, you have to have that humility.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:27Rich Roll?

  Right. Does, did, did you learn that humility through fighting or through just life experience?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  I learned it through the fighting.

• 41:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Because it's, it's the, I learned everything on the example, everything on the real, as I call it. So it's like, how do you figure out what's bad? Do all the bad stuff and they'll send you to prison. You'll guarantee, I can tell you exactly what's bad and we'll end you up in prison. And conversely, I can tell you exactly what's good, but it's only through the experience of doing. But here's the thing, once you, once you have people that have done the experience, you don't really have to go on the journey. You can find somebody who went on the journey and be like, hey buddy.

• 42:06Rich Roll?

  What's funny is that you're like this bookish, nerdish, nerdy kid who's like academically inclined. He's reading all these books, like you could have learned these lessons, you know, on the written page, but you had to have, you had to experience it for yourself.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think it's because my social and family situation was so dysfunctional.

• 42:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  So of course, when reality is backwards, then you do the backwards.

• 42:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, it's almost like there was a, there was a vacuum of free will. Like you were headed in that direction until something intervened. So, all right, so you're, you're, you're, you're learning, you're in the dojo, you're, you're training your butt off. So, you know, where does the first fight come up? Like, I mean, you hit the ground running, it seems. I mean, just the way, the way it reads online, it's sort of like, this just kind of happened overnight.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  It did, it did. Partly because, I mean, it took me like two weeks to heal up from the tryout. Cause Ken, the tryouts, I can say, and you do 500 squats, sit-ups, push-ups and leg lifts. And then you spar a professional fighter for 20 minutes. And mine was Ken, cause he's like, well, I'm gonna, he's my brother, I'm gonna do him right, you know, honor, chi. And he just beat the hell out of me and it took me a couple of weeks to recover. And in that time, I just, you know, I accepted what I was, I accepted what I was gonna do to the, to the max of what I understood. So I, you know, during those two weeks, I changed my mind. And I went, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm jacked up, but I'm gonna become a professional fighter and this is my chance. So I'm gonna go all in and.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  And as soon as I healed up, I just started training and taking notes and I took the same mindset that I had in prison, which was I was, I was needing to overcome this thing. You know, I was stuck. It was trapped because I didn't have and, um, and this was the path. And I just, I, I followed the path. I showed up every day. I studied. I was, you know, I created theories and ideas and concepts and I asked questions and they beat me up because I asked questions because it would, you know, there was a culture before that where you didn't ask questions.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  You followed the, you followed the rhythm and the flow and the thing and the, the curriculum. And so I was unbeknownst to me against the system a little bit and a bit abrasive.

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  Hmm. A bit abrasive.

• 44:23Rich Roll?

  Well, asking too many questions.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  I was a nerd. Yeah. I'm like, what about this? They're like, beat them up some more. I'm like, oh no.

• 44:29Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  But I didn't learn because, you know, normally, you know, you, if you want someone to stop by ask questions, you beat them up a few times and they stop asking questions. But for me, I was so used to getting beat up because I didn't know anything and it was all part of the journey that I was just like, I'll fully accept that. It's like getting a spanking when you like, doing something when you know you're going to get a spanking when it was a kid. Like I would do that.

• 44:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Because I knew like, I'm going to get the answer or part of it and then a beating. And I'm like, that's all right. I'm totally worth that.

• 44:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you're like, I know how to do the beating part.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  I can survive. Like I'm super strong.

• 45:03Rich Roll?

  But kind of what I infer between the lines with this is, is like this deep sense of personal responsibility. Like, yeah, you have Bob and now you have Ken and, and you've got this community at the dojo, but this understanding, like the only person who's going to be able to solve this dilemma of life that I'm in is me. And, and the only way out of this situation to a better life is through. And I have to rely on myself and my own, you know, my brain and my body and my mind and my spirit. And, and, and, and within that, like this idea of just doubling down, like going all in completely and, and resting all the responsibility for that path on yourself. Is that fair?

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's the only way. I think you'll find uber-successful people in sports and everything else have the same mindset, drive, you know, persona, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Mine was from a place of desperation and survival and all the other stuff. But well, many of my other friends, you know, it comes from a place of competitiveness and, you know, self-achievement and community achievement. So.

• 46:12Rich Roll?

  On the competitive aspect of it, do you see yourself as somebody who is

• 46:19Rich Roll?

  competing, or at least at that time, like competing against others to be better than other people? Or was it more of an internal thing, like competing against yourself to be the best version of you?

• 46:31Speaker 01

  It was both for me, because I was also leading the sport or trying to lead the sport. So, you know, everyone was eventually studying me.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  And, and it was also based on survival. So like I had to win. Like I always had to win.

• 46:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Because I was also going with the notion of like, I'm going to fight to the death. So therefore I have to win because, you know, I'll exhaust all remedies. So I had this, you know, always super intense, intensity about my competition. And then, yeah, I'm sure that came from internally, you know, because that, you know, all I ever wanted was that thing. Do you know what I mean? And imagine having it right there. And all you gotta do is beat somebody up. All you gotta do is work really hard. Or all you gotta do is, you know, really, truly apply yourself. And for whatever reason, you know, God, the world, Bob, it was all laid out in front of me. And I just had to achieve it, you know, go down the journey.

• 47:28Rich Roll?

  So how long before, from the first moment that you walk into the dojo to your first competitive fight?

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Eight months.

• 47:35Rich Roll?

  Eight months? And what happened in that fight?

• 47:37Speaker 01

  I won. I beat, I beat Boss Rutan. And in 10 minutes by decision, technically. And, um, and it was just instantly I went from nobody to superstar.

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  Suddenly everybody's talking about you. That's, that's so crazy. I mean, how, how did you get such a prestige fight right out of the gate? Like, didn't you have to? It would seem like you'd have to work your way up to a fight like that.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Well, Pancrase was a fairly new organization. It'd kind of gone through the first cycle of stars. So they were looking for a new kind of generation of stars. And we just all happened to come along in this new tournament. That was made to build the next wave of stars. And Boss was like my counterpart. Ken, you know, I was Ken's brother in the US and he was Boss.

• 48:21Rich Roll?

  And he had beaten Ken, right? So this kind of pinned as a, like a grudge match kind of thing?

• 48:26Speaker 01

  He hadn't beaten Ken yet. They hadn't matched up yet, I don't think.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  But he'd knocked out a ton of people and he was very dangerous. I didn't know he was. I came out of nowhere. I'm like a young nerd from prison. Every time I asked somebody, how did Boss root? And they're all like, oh, and they would look down at the ground. I'd be like, this is just terrible.

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but there's something great about that naivete, like when you don't know. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you can go into it with like a purity.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  In hindsight, it's horrifying because.

• 48:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but had you known, had you been able to fully appreciate the situation you were in? You know, the fear might've gotten the best of you.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, in hindsight, it's horrifying because I just wrestled this past New Year's in Japan and like this kind of crazy grappling match. And I saw that generation that I was 20 years old, no, no, no idea what's going on. The fear and the, all that stuff going on. I was like, I can't believe I did all that. Like, I can't believe I went through that and, and came out like, you know, halfway okay. Like, that's insane.

• 49:26Rich Roll?

  So speaking of Japan, when do you, you end up going to Japan? Was it after that fight or before?

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Well, that fight was in Japan.

• 49:33Rich Roll?

  Oh, it was in Japan.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  And then my next, I think 16 fights were in Japan.

• 49:36Rich Roll?

  But you, so you lived there for a while though, right?

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I went there. So after six months of training, I moved to Japan. And then I finished my training in the Japanese dojo.

• 49:45Rich Roll?

  Right. And what was the style of fighting that you were learning there?

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Uh, Pancrase or, um, what they would call submission, submission fighting, submission grappling style.

• 49:55Rich Roll?

  Hmm. And was that different than what was going on in the States? Like, why did you go to Japan?

• 50:00Speaker 01

  That's where the money was. And that's where the the developed leagues were. You know, we were on a 20 city tour. And and then that's where the contacts were. That's where the opportunity was. In the States, it was still like UFC was just about started or just had started. And it was a tiny audience that was doing good numbers on pay per view. But it was nowhere near the revenues that were were coming in Japan.

• 50:26Rich Roll?

  At that point, yeah. And and what did you learn kind of about being immersed in that culture? That helped you as a fighter or as a human?

• 50:34Speaker 01

  I actually learned a lot because, you know, if you if you position that against, I just came from prison. Like I was been sitting in prison for three and a half years. And before that, I was a complete criminal, like living on the streets and just doing everything horrible you could ever imagine. So I it was this weird moment where I went from the fear and quietness of prison and the focus to this other fear and quietness in Japan. Because I've never left the country, like I'd never done anything like this in my life. And all of a sudden, I'm on parole, going to live in Japan and finish my martial arts.

• 51:10Rich Roll?

  Like, did you have to clear that with your parole officer? Like, how they let you go to Japan?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  This is the greatest letter writing of my life. Like, I had to prove that it only exists in Japan. It's an emerging sport, the revenue. Like, there was all this, you know, preparation and stuff. My my my skills, you know, after prison, were put to good use. But yeah, I went to I went to Japan on parole and finished my career of training. And it was just, it was a crazy wake up because no one spoke English. So every day was, it was the same quietness that was in prison. But it had this whole other intensity because I was gonna fight this guy. I knew I was gonna fight the guy. The minute I landed, like, you're gonna fight the guy. And I was like, oh, okay. So it was all leading to this moment. So it was a very intense, you know, two and a half months. Where everything was just every single day, I was like, oh, my God.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, it's coming. And then I'd be like, who are you fighting? And then I'd be like, boss root. And they'd be like, oh, and they'd look down and be like, this is the whole. Like, I'm so scared. And then luckily, Funaki and Suzuki, the older teachers of the dojo, basically Ken's role for us in the States. You know, they they took me under their wing and they showed me the basic stuff. And, you know, they basically saved my life, as I see it, because I was. Not prepared to fight Bas Rutan when I landed in Japan. He was gonna kick my face off.

• 52:28Rich Roll?

  Right, but somehow you beat this guy. I don't know how you did that, but you do. And you're launched into, immediately into mainstream awareness as this new talent. And as I understand it, you're kind of looked at as somebody who could excel in all the various disciplines of mixed martial arts. Like, I'm a triathlete. My analogy to that would be, in the sort of earlier days of triathlon, there'd be the guy who was an amazing runner in college, and then he didn't really know how to ride a bike or swim, but he was doing really well because he's really good at one of those three things. But today, as the sport has matured, you have to be amazing at all three of them, or

• 53:13Rich Roll?

  you're out. And so, when I was reading about you, I was thinking, well, you were kind of like one of the first guys who could excel across the board in all the many different kinds of styles of fighting and disciplines that are required to excel in MMA.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally, yeah. I was the first complete athlete, because that's where the study took me.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  The need was to create a system, à la Bruce Lee, where you did the most amount of damage with the least amount of effort to yourself, and you could win under the skill set, under the rules. So, the rules were ever-evolving, as was the athlete in the sport. I was the first, like, super athlete that could fight. I only say could fight, because I had more techniques than the other super athletes. And then, I was the first guy to put a whole system together, where I was good at punch kick, wrestle knee, position. My last 11 fights all finished differently. Because it doesn't matter where you're from, or what position you're in, everything has equal damage, opportunity, if you have the right system.

• 54:17Rich Roll?

  And the system that you put together, was this something that you crafted yourself? Like, as part of the, like, hey, I have a new idea, or a different idea? Or is this something you learned from the Japanese?

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Pure survival. It was an amalgamation of everything that happened. So, as the sport continued to evolve, in the last seven or eight years of my career, I was focused solely on striking. Because the five years before, the sport was focused solely on grappling. So all the focus turned somewhere else. So I turned my attention elsewhere to develop my skill elsewhere.

• 54:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  But it was about staying ahead of the sport and staying ahead of the development and the popularity curves in the sport. And in trying to stay ahead, I just put together a complete system because I kept facing everybody. And their skill would be somewhere else and then it would be somewhere else. And at the end of, I'd say 15 years, I had a complete fighting system that would, you know, stand up to any, any system, any martial art, any adjusted martial art.

• 55:20Rich Roll?

  Right. So grappling, striking on the mat, no matter what it is, like you're able to like manage it. Right.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:27Rich Roll?

  And at that time, was it true that like most of the fighters were, they would be good at one of these things? But you always knew what their weakness was.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:36Rich Roll?

  And you could kind of exploit that to your benefit.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause in the beginning it was singular martial arts. It was, you know, I'm a karate guy or I'm a wrestler.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  And I'm going to use that skill set as a base, you know, to, to gain control.

• 55:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I would just study, I didn't know any better, you know, to me, I didn't know what you weren't not supposed to do or what your system was supposed to have. I had no rules. So I was just surviving. So every other system's like, don't go to your back. I'm like, wow, go to your back. I'm on my back, you know, if it's easier to move, I'm going to go there. So I just rewrote and wrote my own system and I used all the strengths of the other martial arts that were around me. And that oftentimes were being tested against me. So a lot of these martial arts skills that I learned were, I'm going to fight so and so, they're really good at this. I'm like, well, let's study that. What does that mean? And then we'd figure out new stuff around that and we'd add that to the system.

• 56:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Interesting.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  And I'd go out and kick their butt and defeat them. Then be like, well, it works.

• 56:34Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  We'd keep it in the system.

• 56:36Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and within that is kind of an appreciation for really trying to figure out what your own personal weaknesses are, right? And focusing on developing them as opposed to, well, I'm a, I'm a striker, I'm a grappler. So I'm going to double down on that because that's what I know how to do. But instead to say, well, here's where I can develop where I'm weak that would make me this super athlete and be able to perform in all the various capacities that I need to, to go to the top.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the harder journey.

• 57:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  The facing all the weaknesses.

• 57:06Rich Roll?

  Well, no one wants to work on their weaknesses.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Hey, let's show them all the work on our weaknesses today. Yeah, but that's the real stuff. You know, that's what, that's what they really do.

• 57:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  You know, and I would, I would just have guys and be like, before we knew, you know, I'd just be like, listen, put me in the wall, put these gloves on, punch me in the head. They're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, I gotta figure this out. Nobody's got a theory. I was like, so punch me in the head a few times and like, I'm gonna work this out. And they'd be like, you're insane. I'd be like, but somebody's gotta figure this out.

• 57:36Rich Roll?

  So rather than like finding the coach who knows how to do that, you're just gonna, you know, figure it out on your own?

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Well, I also figured out nobody knew. Cause once I started my journey and I started teaching and I started sharing and I started giving, cause I thought that was the natural process to learn more, you give more. I started realizing people didn't know.

• 57:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  And I started, people, you know, people would bow up and interrupt and, you know, change the information. And I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. How do I get out of the wall when someone's punching me in the head? Like, that's all I need to know.

• 58:06Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  But they would be distracted by other things because everyone, what I realized, and it was really weird, is I was just on a journey to survive and, you know, it was changing martial arts at the same time.

• 58:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, that's what's interesting.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  So there was a lot of resistance in all sports and all martial arts about the whole thing. Cause no one knew what was going on and it was so new and different.

• 58:25Rich Roll?

  Right, it was, it was so different back then to what it is now. So when you look at the sport today and you see these guys, like, I mean, the money aspect aside and the media aspect aside, like, what's different about the guys that are fighting right now? Like, what's different about Conor McGregor versus, you know, what was going on when you were competing?

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 58:49Rich Roll?

  Nothing.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 58:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the promoters.

• 58:51Rich Roll?

  But these guys have to, in order to win now, they all have to be super athletes, right?

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no. I mean, the, the, here's the beauty of fighting. And I think it holds true in some other sports. Everything works when you're a super athlete. Everything works. You hit somebody and you're like 190 pounds and you hit him flush, you're gonna smash them. So, um, as you become a super athlete, it's really easy to rely on things that work, to go down these other paths, to stop developing yourself, to stop on these journeys of exploration that really make you, you know, invincible or undefeatable, or a master, an expert in your field.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  That's the hardest part. I wanna go do what's best and easy and fun. I wanna knock people out and, but the truth is, I suck at some things and those are all the stuff that is like, should be the study. It should be the focus of the whole moment. Because when you get there and you're not ready, then you're gonna freak out and lose energy and focus and, you know, then the machine, everything falls apart.

• 59:51Rich Roll?

  Right, but ultimately, that's what you, I mean, that's what you have to do to grow, right?

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:56Rich Roll?

  If you wanna continue to grow, you gotta focus on that stuff.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  As a human being, you don't want, we don't want to, you know? You know, we wanna take the fat pill, we wanna take the easy, we don't, we don't, people don't wanna get pushed in a wall and punched in the head to figure out something. That's

• 1:00:07Rich Roll?

  I don't wanna do that.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  way too much, yeah.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  Someone just give me the answer for God's sake. Punch in the head, I'm done. I'm outta here. You're like, I haven't been punched in the head since like 7th grade, so.

• 1:00:25Rich Roll?

  Alright, so you go on to be, you, you go on this crazy winning streak, fighter of the decade. You fight from 94 to like 2010, right? Essentially undefeated. You have a couple, there was a couple of times where you didn't.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  I went 10 years undefeated.

• 1:00:41Rich Roll?

  10 years undefeated, right?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Rich Roll?

  And ultimately, you, you retire in 2010.

• 1:00:48Rich Roll?

  After, was it Nate Diaz or Nick Diaz?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Nick.

• 1:00:51Rich Roll?

  Nick in the end there.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Put a good whooping on me.

• 1:00:55Rich Roll?

  But he's sort of like the next generation coming up, right?

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:59Rich Roll?

  And then you had one fight like a year ago, right?

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Well, the grappling match.

• 1:01:04Rich Roll?

  A grappling?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Grappling, yeah.

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Why did you come back and do that?

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  It was totally like left field. You know, I had, I, when I was 16, I had this, my right leg went numb, started dragging behind me. And I went to the doctor and they said, listen, you got a spondylithosis in your L3. So you need spinal surgery. And I was in a group home at the time. So I was like, ah, what to do with this? And my group home doctor dad took me to a chiropractor. And he's like, listen, it's a common injury, but you're going to have to care for it the rest of your life. Like you gotta keep the muscle built and you gotta do these goofy exercises. So he gives me these goofy exercises. So I do them for 30 years and then it stops working. And I have the worst back pain you could ever imagine. And I'm considering surgery and I'm like Mr. Natural, like I'm not into anything, cutting my body open.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  So, you know, I'm going down this deep path of surgery. And, and finally I consult with one of my friends and he's like, you gotta see my friend Dennis. He's like a magic man. And I go and see him in like an hour, he fixes my back.

• 1:02:04Rich Roll?

  Whoa.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  And he's like, what's wrong with you? And I go, what's wrong with me? And I go, I asked him all about it. And he's like, listen, you're putting too much energy into it. He's like, you, you know, you just need new exercise. Your body's changed, everything's changed. And he's like, let me restructure you, let me give you these new exercises and send you on your way. And within two weeks, I'm like climbing mountains and kick, playing in kickball tournaments and all the stuff that I wanted to be doing, but I was in too much pain to be doing, you know, for like three or four years, I'm doing. And I'm like, this is amazing. And so I'm putting out in the universe, like I wanna do stuff with my body. And bing, phone rings, it's Japanese promotion. They're like, is there any way you could wrestle Sakuraba, who's my oldest nemesis, like for 18 years? You know, at this date, and I'm like, maybe. Like I just, I tell him the story. I'm like, I just fixed my back.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  And I'm like, I'm so fired up about it. And, and I go, let me go to the gym and try it out. And I go in and three days later, I call him back and I go, I could probably do this. I go, we're gonna have to modify the rules a little bit, cause I don't, it's not good. But I think I could do this. And then I went and did it.

• 1:03:03Rich Roll?

  So you went and did it. It was a draw, right?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  It was a draw, yeah. Yeah, 10 minutes draw.

• 1:03:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool though. So you were 45 at the time?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Forty-five.

• 1:03:11Rich Roll?

  Forty-five, right. So you're 47 now?

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I think I'm still 45.

• 1:03:15Rich Roll?

  You're still 45?

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  I'm 46.

• 1:03:16Rich Roll?

  Forty-six. All right. Well, this is super interesting to me because I have Spondy also.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Rich Roll?

  And

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  It hurts, right?

• 1:03:25Rich Roll?

  It, it, the pain is not that bad. Um, I was first diagnosed with it maybe in 2010 or something like that. And I'm 51 right now, but I was in the midst of like training really hard and I was like, ah, I didn't have any pain at the time. And I was like, and it was a chiropractor who diagnosed it and, um, I would go to him and I still go to him and I get traction and, you know, he adjusts me and things like that. But then at this year, 51 is like the first year where I've started to really feel my mortality in a way that I haven't. I have a little bit, I have some pain on the left side, like sciatic nerve pain and a little bit of numbness on the top of my left foot.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  And, uh, and I'm looking for some new and different things to do. So I'm really interested in what Dennis had you do.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Go see Dennis.

• 1:04:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Is he out here?

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's in Beverly Hills.

• 1:04:21Rich Roll?

  Oh, he is?

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Rich Roll?

  So tell me what, yeah, hook me up with him. Tell me, tell me what, uh, what some of the things he was instructing you to do.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Well, um, he said, one of my core things is just, as you know, instability, you know, there's, it's not connected. So it's not all structured. So it's over fatiguing all the time. Um, so when I went in, I was pretty S'd out. Like I was, my back had gone out bad. I think I was, um, had all these appearances lined up and I couldn't, I couldn't get off the, I couldn't get off the ground. It was the first time my daughter had seen me like that.

• 1:04:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  So I was like, nah. So, um, and he's basically like, listen, you know, you, you've built all these muscles to support you with the crooked thing. He's like, we gotta release all that stuff.

• 1:05:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Kind of restructure you, re, rebalance you. And then he's like, let me show you, you know, he's like, you've just got to get that tiny, tiny muscle on top of your, you know, right on top of your hip. He's like, you just gotta get to that muscle. And he's like, let me show you how to do it.

• 1:05:16Rich Roll?

  So is it like a lot of psoas type stretching to lengthen out the?

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Well, what I, for me, it's about keeping my hips square and strong. So I do basic, you know, warrior poses and postures and, you know, lunge dances and stuff like that to keep everything aligned. But literally for me, I just need to keep that little tiny muscle that sits above your. Your hip bone in the back.

• 1:05:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  I just need to keep that strong. Because it's not because of the misconnection.

• 1:05:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  So if I keep that strong, everything else feels great. If I skip three days, I literally feel like my back's gonna go out. And I feel like I'm gonna lose a thing here and it's gonna pinch and my right leg's gonna go numb.

• 1:05:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you have no numbness now?

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  No, I got nothing.

• 1:05:58Rich Roll?

  That's great.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  But if I miss, like I laid on the couch for two days because I was so tired from the yard work. And instantly today, pain and I got tingles in my, um, in my leg. But what I'll do is, he showed me the exercise to unlock it, to help release the pressure on it. And so like I'll get on a table, I'll get in like a sprinter stance and I'll like, um, try to pull my heel back and release my hip. Like get it to stretch out.

• 1:06:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  And that will, that will take the pressure off and kind of release it if I have it go out. And I get like this, I'm like.

• 1:06:30Rich Roll?

  We're jacked team. Right. Yeah, you're all like lopsided. And, and I think, you know, for me, just running for so many years and.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, running is a tough one because of the impact.

• 1:06:39Rich Roll?

  Well, it create, yeah, and you develop certain muscles and others atrophy and you get that imbalance. And, and then when with the spondy, you start favoring one side over the other. And then that leads to running injuries. There's a whole cascading effect.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  He, he spent an hour releasing the rest of my body tension, which was two other guys with a couple of machines and some other weird stuff. And I thought at one point I was gonna tear my knee out and I was gonna crap on myself. But every three minutes he'd be like, stand up, let me look at you. All right, get back down, let's adjust this side. Cause every time he'd figure out where the tension's left until there was no tension left. And he's like, okay, you're straight. You got no more tension. And he's like, now keep that area strong and you're straight. You're cool.

• 1:07:22Rich Roll?

  So how long did you have to kind of do this protocol before the pain alleviated?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Instant.

• 1:07:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Instant. No, it was, you don't understand. I was laid over, like trying to explain to my daughter, I'm gonna be okay. She'd never seen me like that. Uh, so it's been nine years, you know, or at least five years that she's never seen me this.

• 1:07:42Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's great.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, right? No, you know, I'm crawling around the house. Don't touch me, don't touch me, like jacked. So it was just a big wake up call. I was like, what am I doing? Either I'm gonna get this fixed or I'm gonna figure out an alternative.

• 1:07:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  And he just happened to have the alternative. So yeah, you hundred percent gotta go see him.

• 1:07:59Rich Roll?

  Cool. So you feel good now?

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Rich Roll?

  You think you'll ever, you'll, you'll do another fight?

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  No, no, I didn't enjoy it.

• 1:08:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I enjoyed the competitive side, but I didn't enjoy the training and, and then it was last minute. You know, I was like the fill in last minute guy. So, um, there was just, it, it wasn't the experience that I wanted, although it was the experience that I wanted.

• 1:08:23Rich Roll?

  What, what, what did you want? What did you think that you wanted?

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  I just wanted enough time. I wanted to really train. I wanted, you know, you know, four weeks, you know, like I wanted a real training session because I'm old, you know, I don't train. I hike slowly and I do yoga and, you know, I dance at, at gala. It's like, training is very minimal now.

• 1:08:47Rich Roll?

  So let's talk about now. Um, you're doing all kinds of things now, um, but you know, probably is the main thing that you're doing kind of, uh, uh, mentoring and coaching other people, not, not just in MMA, but kind of like life coaching, right?

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't actually have any people in MMA, except for if you are one MMA company owner. But, um, yeah, it's mainly business stuff.

• 1:09:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  I, um, I, I, uh, at the, at the last phase of my career, that'd have been the strike force era, which would have been the last five years. So 2005 to 2010. I became a league owner and, you know, I was the broadcaster. I was the consultant. I was really a head of, of the strike force brand. Uh, and I was also like the main event guy. So, um, what I did to kind of get the tools to do that, because I mean, it's ridiculous. Like I was trying to lead this whole league against the UFC and, and get on network television, uh, as I took a mentor and he had learned, he was 35 years into product development and asset management and mechanics in Silicon Valley.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  So he's like, a product's a product's a product. And he really taught me how to look at products and businesses and IPs and lifespans. And he just taught me about business. I didn't know about business. I went to college in prison.

• 1:10:10Rich Roll?

  University of Leavenworth.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  I didn't get a solid one. So, so this was another level of education. And you know, by that time I had a brand worth, I don't like $5 million or something. And, and I was just entering into a phase of, you know, huge opportunity. And, um, and that was ownership in the league and these other roles and stuff. And, and so I just, in the midst of training and doing all the stuff I was doing, I was like, wow, I learned this stuff too. And I went down, I went down that journey. And for three and a half years, I took an education on how to asset management, project development, uh, product development. Um, and then at the same time, I was running a professional fighting team.

• 1:10:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Uh, and it's all just become now one unit, uh, except for nobody's fighting each other professionally. We're all just business professionals.

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  So what's going on with Strike Force now?

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  We sold it to the UFC. Yeah, we made it made a super nice exit. And, um, yeah.

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  And so, right. So now you've, you've taken this acumen that you developed as a result of that experience, that is sort of, that's the plus and the plus minus equal, right? Like, working with that guy in Silicon Valley who taught you all of these things. And so what is the, when you take somebody on to, to mentor them in the capacity that you do, like, what does that look like? Like, walk me through that experience.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Uh, well, everyone's at a different place normally, but, um, most people are obviously looking for something, some change, some moment, some divination. Usually they're coming in search of something. Um, the hardest part is finding out what they want, or what they're looking for. So although they'll tell you, hey, here's what I want to do.

• 1:11:49Rich Roll?

  Or I would imagine they're stuck often, right?

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Everyone, yeah, usually.

• 1:11:53Rich Roll?

  Plateaued somewhere.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Usually you're stuck and you're like, what do I do? And you don't know how to change or transform or make that, make that movement. So usually I get that, I get them in some role or get them there. And then, um, I, I sit down with them, I figure out what their roles and goals are, like, what do they really want to do? Because we all talk about stuff and we're all doing stuff, but do we really want to do it? Like, is it really what we want to be doing? And then once I can figure out what they really want to do, you know, then I can kind of help guide them and, and pull out of them what, what that dream is, I guess, what that thing is, you know, what, what they really. Really truly want to do what their purpose or what they believe their purpose is.

• 1:12:29Rich Roll?

  And what do you think it is about your unique experience that that makes like your your tutelage, your counsel a little bit different than what somebody else might, somebody might get from, you know, I don't know, Tony Robbins or somebody else who kind of is in that space?

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I mean,

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  I don't know, to be honest with you. I just, I can feel what people and people tell me what they need. And then for some reason I can help visualize and create systems to capture that.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  And yeah, people trust me, I think because of my honesty, you know, both in my story and, you know, I live, this is my life, like this is what I do.

• 1:13:19Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  I think Tony, Tony and I, I think Tony Robbins and I share that. Like, I think he came from a place of, you know, wow, we got to help some people. Like, this is important, you know, we shouldn't let people do or live like this or experience this because it sucks.

• 1:13:33Rich Roll?

  But most people either don't know what they want or think they know what they want, but it's not really what they want.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, people really truly know what they want if they sit down and think about it.

• 1:13:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  And we don't sit down and think about it.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  Well, because we're living, we're living, we're, yeah, we're scared, but we're all, and we're, and because we're scared, we're living reflexively and the devil we know is better than the devil we don't.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:57Rich Roll?

  And we're taught to, and we're raised to seek comfort and luxury and security. And these things are impediments to the things that we really want in life and also the things that truly will make us happy because it's not about those other things.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Rich Roll?

  So the process of getting somebody to that place like requires them to be, well, I think it goes back to trust, like they have to trust you, they have to feel comfortable with you and, and you have to create that space that allows them to be vulnerable so that they can tell you what those fears are. Right? I mean,

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:31Rich Roll?

  That seems to be the only way to kind of at least address it so that you can move beyond it.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And for some reason, I mean, I see it because when I read my story, I'm like, what on earth? Yeah. This is the most ridiculous stuff that you can imagine. But I have all those experiences, every single one, you know, including.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  People are like, well, how do you know about business? I was like, well, my first business experiences, I would get hired to sit at the end of a table at a multi-billion dollar negotiations by billionaires. So at some point, they could be like, yeah, Frank Shamrock right here to chant.

• 1:15:05Rich Roll?

  University of Lebanon words.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  That was it. Nothing else, just to name me and to show that I was there. But I was sitting there as a young man going, hmm, all right, well, this is how business is done. This is intriguing and learning about business. And that was, you know, how I now understand, well, wait a minute.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  This is what business is about and this is how it's done. And, you know, these are a lot of the principles that are followed at the highest level of business.

• 1:15:30Rich Roll?

  Right. Your story is about pain and determination and self-responsibility. These are things that a lot of people, you know, like, there aren't that many people who have had to confront the kind of obstacles and pain that you had to. And I think most people really just aren't that disciplined, right? They didn't go to a dojo in Japan. They didn't have the, the, you know, hard knock experience that you had growing up. And they also didn't have the kind of structure that you were lucky enough to find yourself in later. So how do you, how do you convey to these people the lessons that you learned in a way that they can hear it and then implement it?

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Well, I believe everyone can.

• 1:16:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  The only, the only thing I did was change my mind. Like, that's it. I went, wow, I can't do this. Like, I screwed up.

• 1:16:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Like, I just changed who I, what I truly believed about myself. I went, wow, I'm, I'm, I am a criminal and a liar and a scumbag. Like, all that stuff they wrote, I'm truly that person. And I'm going to change it. Like, that was it. And I think most people don't ever sit down and write that down. I, you know. I've done a lot of good things and I've done a lot of bad things. But it's like, I think when you face them and you move through them, I think when you're prepared to address them, I call it the secret life. Everybody has, you know, the life they live out here, then everyone has the life they live inside.

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  And when you, when you

• 1:17:03Rich Roll?

  And that life that live in, yeah, that life that they live inside is, is often marked by fears we talked about, but also shame. It's inside because they're afraid if they ever told anyone about that, that they would lose all their friends and all that sort of thing. So I know in my own life experience, like you have to own that and you have to, you know, in order to move past it, you have to shed a light on it. And that involves talking to someone like yourself or confiding in another as a process of, of dismantling it so that you can grow and transcend it.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And even just addressing it, for a lot of people, it's writing it down and going, wow.

• 1:17:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Sir, double underline, wow.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm a long time in recovery and that's, they called out in 12 step inventory.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You gotta take an inventory.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Even for the brain, like if you try to learn something, you know, there's a million ways to learn. But the minute you write it down, the minute your brain connects with the mechanics of creating and writing, it is so imprinted and it has so much value to your brain. And that's why writing, we talked about writing, it's like when you can write, when you can document, when you can note, when you can theorize. It's like, that's the stuff where your brain's going, hmm, and growing and, and changing. And, and that's the stuff you want to support, right? You know how hard it is to sit down and write, I'm a loser, I'm a criminal, I'm the worst father ever, like, I'm just like my dad. You know, I'm, I'm really am those people, like, that's really hard.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  And then to make a change to that, like, but why not? Do you know what I mean? Like, why not?

• 1:18:44Rich Roll?

  Well, I think there's There's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves and there's the facts of our experience, but some people become overly connected to these stories. Like they get attached to, well, I'm a lousy dad and I'm a this and I'm a that. It becomes a self perpetuating cycle, right? It may be the truth, but it also becomes a pretty accurate predictor of future behavior. So I think the trick is, once you're writing it down and you're honest with yourself about that, how do you interrupt that cycle? Right?

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Rich Roll?

  It's not easy.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  It's not easy. That's where your community comes in and your pluses and your minuses and.

• 1:19:26Rich Roll?

  Well, let's talk about the plus minus. We've been talking about the plus minus equal thing. We didn't actually describe exactly what it is.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, we kind of. It's, to me, it's just, it's how I live my life. You know, it's, it's the system that I function on. And for anything I want to accomplish, I find that plus. Someone who's done it, someone who's accomplished it, somebody who's successful at it, someone who's happy doing it, whatever it is. And I, you know, I present myself to them. I make myself humble. I try to learn from them. And sometimes they say no. And then I find my equal, you know, my competitor, my neighbor, my friend, my whatever, the person I want to equal my business to, or equal my presentation to, or my thing to. And I find out what they're doing and I befriend them, or I embattle them, or I somehow become aware of them. And then I find a minus. I find somebody to teach, somebody to guide,

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  somebody to take my pluses information, my equals information and empower them with. And I just work that system on everything I do, from marriage to business, to, you know, make a film, you know, start a PSA. I'm doing a PSA. I don't know, do a PSA. You know, but I called up a guy who's done 500 PSAs. I'm like, buddy, here's what I need.

• 1:20:37Rich Roll?

  What are you doing a PSA on?

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  On, on mental health awareness.

• 1:20:40Rich Roll?

  What inspired you to do that?

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  One of my clients in my talent management business is bipolar. They're one of my best friends and.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  And I met him in broadcasting and he's just one of the best broadcasters in the business. But he's bipolar, you know, he's up, he's down, he's crazy, locked up, he's not, he's, you know, we're looking for medication. It's been, you know, a 10 year journey with him. And I just met him and, you know, no one was caring for him. I was like, well, dude, we can't leave this guy behind. We gotta bring him with us. And, you know, he's been super successful. But, you know, part of his journey is, is, is becoming a, you know, so a social activist and communicating, you know, what he's doing and, and how he's doing it, you know? I've seen him. I mean, he's manic.

• 1:21:31Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, if anybody who's had any experience with somebody with bipolar, I mean, it's a roller coaster ride.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:36Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of, you know, education that needs to be done, not just for those who suffer, but for, you know, everybody out there to kind of understand what that condition is all about. Because we demonize it in a way that I don't think is fair.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  Nah, nah, and it's challenging because in other cultures it's celebrated, you know, in other cultures, it's, it's, it's at least

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  recognized as being different. You know, to me, they're just different. He's just different. My buddy's different. He's amazing, but he's different, you know? And it's like, we gotta do different things for him. But with those different things and with, you know, some nice lifestyle adjustments, I mean, he's extraordinary. He's killing it. You know, part of our PSA campaign is, we have this stigma around mental health and people are like, they turn their back. You know, they don't turn and go, what do you mean?

• 1:22:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  You know, and hey, I've got those calls at 3am and 4am and 5am and, you know what I mean?

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  Who is this guy?

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  I've got those crazy calls, but, you know, at the same time, he's just different. And if he had another disease or another illness, we wouldn't think twice about it. You know, we'd be there supporting him at 4am or 3am. You know, we'd be getting his medicine at 5am.

• 1:22:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  But because he's a little quirky, we're like, ah, you know, goofball.

• 1:22:53Rich Roll?

  You seem like such a sweet guy. I have such a hard time picturing you beating the hell out of people.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  Oh, and that's so good. This is the most challenging part. You're gonna love this. So I had the hardest time hurting people.

• 1:23:04Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Like it really, truly weighed on me and I couldn't understand where it came from. So actually, my first professional fight, you know, no rules fight, I lost it because I couldn't put the hammer down. I couldn't break the leg. I couldn't break the arm, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't kill him. Like I was like, ah, this is not, you know, this is not in my soul, you know, even though that was my dream.

• 1:23:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  So I had to leave that thing, losing.

• 1:23:30Rich Roll?

  You had to overcome that.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  And sit down with myself again and go, wait a minute, I picked up a sword, I'm swinging it in battle and I'm not gonna, you know, down anybody and they're gonna down me?

• 1:23:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  I'm like, what, this is the craziest thing in the world. And what I realized, I was just traumatized. You know, the experience of abuse and all this stuff and the fear. I was just traumatized by the violence and I hadn't accepted what it truly was. And I hadn't accepted that that was my, my real role. I was gonna hurt people. That was my job. And once I did, I was like, well, you know, this is really messed up, but yeah, I have to hurt people. That's my job.

• 1:24:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  And then I got really good at it. And a lot of people got messed up.

• 1:24:12Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, but now it doesn't, it doesn't seem like it's your nature though, you know? And, and like I said at the outset, I'm friends with Mac Danzig and I have the same thing with him. I'm like, he's such a nice guy, like, and then I watched him fight and I'm like, who is that guy? Like, I was like, whoa, that's what he does? Like, I, I can't even imagine, you know? And I think, I think that's something, that's something I would imagine is kind of across the board with the best fighters. Like they, they, they're working out their angst and their frustration and their aggression and all of that in the training and in the fighting. And when they're walking around in their life, they're cool, you know? And it's, it's the guy with the, you know, tap out t-shirt and the hat pulled

• 1:24:57Rich Roll?

  low, who's like, thinks he's all that, you know, who's like aggressive. I'm like, no, the real fighters aren't like that.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:03Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, they get their fill. Yeah, so they don't need to.

• 1:25:07Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, we gotta wrap this up here in a minute, but I thought it would be cool to kind of leave people with some, some insight, perhaps a little inspiration or some tools for somebody who.

• 1:25:21Rich Roll?

  Is in that place of of a fear or living reflexively and is not happy and perhaps can't see their way out to the next thing, or is disconnected from what it is that they really want to do, or the person that they really want to be. And as somebody who has overcome so much and is living such a huge life in so many different ways now, you know, what kind of, you know, what would you impart to that person?

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  I would start with looking inside and writing it down. And for a lot of people-

• 1:25:56Rich Roll?

  Do you still do that, by the way?

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Every day.

• 1:25:57Rich Roll?

  You still, so what's your, what's your tactical process?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Um, I start every day when I wake and I come to consciousness, I instantly begin my prayers. And I thank God for waking me up once again and, and, and the day and, and then I go into anything I think is important to talk to God about in the universe. And then I, and then I meditate and I visualize what I want my day to look like. And that's before I get out of bed every single day.

• 1:26:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  And then that's how I start.

• 1:26:34Rich Roll?

  You're, you're, you seem like you're really good at visualization.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can see the stuff. But it's because what, what I put in my brain is the stuff and nothing else. And I think that's where people go astray, is they put all this other crap in their brain, when if they really truly want something, that's the only thing that should be in their brain. That's all you really need. That's what'll make you happy. That's your dream.

• 1:26:58Rich Roll?

  I don't think we're selective enough with what we allow through that sieve, you know, especially with our mobile devices. We're just, we're polluting ourselves with a lot of content, but not a lot of intentionality about what that is and what it's actually doing to us mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, wears out your, wears out your spirit and your soul. But if you want to change it- All you gotta do is turn this stuff off and get in yourself and take some time and meditate. And you know, the best meditation is when you can add something physical to it. You know, we can create some martial, you know, rowing, swimming, you know, something where you're really connected. And if you can add the earth or the universe, like if you can add something of substance to it, like it just gets, you know, better and better. But it's in those moments, you know, where you're in your brain and you're really pushing and you're in other settings.

• 1:27:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  That you go, ah, oh yeah, that's right. These are my dreams.

• 1:27:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  And then write those down and then find the people, find the community and tell them.

• 1:27:58Rich Roll?

  Do the plus minus equal.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and tell somebody. Here's what, here's what most people are afraid to do is to tell somebody. I'll tell you all my dreams because I'm actively pursuing them and crushing them. And if I don't, we're going to celebrate in the loss or the change or the whatever. Most people never go, here's my dream because they're afraid it's not going to come true.

• 1:28:16Rich Roll?

  Right, well, that once they do that, then they're on the hook.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  And then they own it.

• 1:28:19Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? And they can't back out.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I say it, own it, write it, start it, get your plus minus equal, live by honor, respect and discipline, be a good person. And all of this stuff will happen for you because people will, will like you, they'll be pleased with you, they'll be pleased to be around you and to help you.

• 1:28:42Rich Roll?

  I'm with you Frank Shamrock. I would add one thing to that though, which is patience.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, gotta be patient.

• 1:28:48Rich Roll?

  Meditation and journaling have been instrumental in my own life. And I began, I began journaling, I was using the artist way, like right when I got out of rehab in 1998 and I continue to do it to this day. And I remember doing morning pages, journaling every single day for a long time, just confused, you know, but it was a way of expressing that confusion. And I think it was necessary to get to a place of eventual clarity. But patience is, is super important and I think especially particularly important in our. You know, quick fix, life hack culture where everybody wants to snap their fingers

• 1:29:31Rich Roll?

  and make it happen overnight. So patience. And I think, you know, if you're an example of anything, it's, it's that, you know, we all are capable of so much more than we allow ourselves to believe. And if you're willing to do the work and be patient and show up and give all of yourself to something, whatever it is, that amazing things can happen. So thank you.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 1:29:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool, man. Great to talk to you. Awesome. So if you want to connect with Frank, the best place to do that, I mean, you got website, Twitter, all that Frank Shamrock.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am at Frank Shamrock everywhere. And yeah, if you have an ask, you can send it to [email protected]. And I'll try to fill your ask if I can. Then I'll let you know again.

• 1:30:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And pick up his book, Uncaged, which I still have to read. I haven't read it yet.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  You're gonna love it. Honestly, I, you know, book nerd, I read every, I read a thousand biographies. So when I wrote one, I was like, no, I'm gonna write the real deal. Like no fluff, no, I'm gonna write what really truly happened.

• 1:30:40Rich Roll?

  Well, most sports biographies suck.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  They suck. And they're all like, I hang out with these guys.

• 1:30:45Rich Roll?

  The brand of somebody who's in the twilight of their career.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  And I like, I hang out with them, like, no, dude, this didn't happen. So I wrote it. And I was like, okay, I remember reading all those books as a young man and thinking, that's what it's like. And I went, I want to write a book so that they know that's what it's like, for real. So that's what I wrote. I wrote a book for a kid, you know, or the young man who, you know, was on a journey. So hopefully you like it.

• 1:31:09Rich Roll?

  We're all on a journey.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  I know, right? And hopefully it just continues on and on. That's the blessing.

• 1:31:14Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, great talking to you. Thanks, man.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Thanks, brother.

• 1:31:17Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:31:20Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do me a favor. Give Frank a shout out on Instagram or Twitter or both, @FrankShamrock, and show him a little bit of love. As always, check out the show notes for links and resources related to today's conversation on the episode page at richroll.com. And again, the brand new and revised edition of Finding Ultra is now available. Pick it up where you buy books, paperback, audiobook, ebook, Kindle. If you can't find it in your nation, in your country, we have signed copies available on my website, richroll.com, and we do ship worldwide. Also, The Plant Power Way Italia comes out soon, April 24th. It would mean so much if you would preorder your copy today. And if you're a woman, please make sure to check

• 1:32:03Rich Roll?

  out the second most recent blog post on my website for a chance to win a free spot in our upcoming retreat in Tuscany, May 19th through 26th, 2018. It's a $5,000 value. Contest is only open through April 24th, so jump on it now. If you would like to support my work, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this content. That really does help us out a lot. Only takes a second, doesn't cost you a thing. And you can also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. I do not do this alone, I can tell you that. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music,

• 1:32:45Rich Roll?

  and taking my calls in the middle of the night. Michael Gibson for videoing today's podcast. Blake Curtis for editing the show in video format, also for creating all the graphics that go along with today's episode. And theme music, as always, by Anna Lima. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'll see you back here in a few days with author Alex Hutchinson. He is the author of the amazing new book, Endure. This one's really great. I think you're going to enjoy it. But until then, Hope you guys have a great week, great couple of days at least. Treat yourself well, be kind to other people, love yourself and love others. Peace, plants. Namaste.