147. The Most Dangerous Machine

More than 1 million people die worldwide each year from traffic accidents. But there's never been a safer time to drive.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:27Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:10Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Steve Levitt is my Freakonomics friend and co-author. He teaches economics at the University of Chicago. So Levitt, how good or bad a driver are you, scale of 1 to 10?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  I am one of the worst drivers on the planet. I'm a terrible driver. Awful.

• 3:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give me a number, 1 to 10?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  1.

• 3:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  2?

• 3:10Speaker 01

  1.

• 3:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  1? So what does it say about driving in the United States in the year 2013, however, that you're one of the worst drivers who ever lived, and yet you're still alive?

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Well, we have great technology. So when I bang into things, neither I nor the things I hit get hurt very badly. And we have great developments, like people have very loud horns that they blow at me, and they have really very vivid brake lights and other things that flash in front of me telling me I have to stop. And they have built technology in the sides of roads so that when I'm veering off my lane and towards the grass, it goes dum dum dum dum dum dum dum and reminds me to go back on. So I think there are a lot of safeguards in there to keep me from killing myself in a car.

• 4:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why do you think you're such a bad driver, Levitt? You're relatively good at some other things.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  I'm very distracted as a driver. I don't pay very much attention.

• 4:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  What distracts you? Is it stuff in your head, or are you reaching for the hamburger or the music? What is it?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Partly, it's in my head, and I just am thinking about other things. But I am an incessant channel changer on the radio. I'm always in search of a better song than the one that's currently playing.

• 4:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is there any song that you'll stay till the end? Like a Kelly Clarkson, "I Know You Like the Girl Pop"?

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Lately, we've been staying to the end of, when I'm with the kids, to the end of Wrecking Ball with Miley Cyrus. They're a big fan of that.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  And I talk on the phone and I text. I do all the things you're not supposed to do. I'm pretty much a walking time bomb when it comes to driving.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 5:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hello there. What are you doing while you listen to this podcast? Maybe you're on the computer pretending to work. Maybe you're taking a walk in the park or you're out for a run. Or maybe, maybe, maybe, you're in your car with your sound system and your GPS and your cup holder, all the comforts of home at 60 miles an hour. For more than a century, the car has been an extraordinarily convenient way to get around. It changed the way we think about distance. Now, for many of us, the car is an irreplaceable utility and a vanity. We love our cars. We might even imagine they love us back. But here's one more thing about the car. It's a death trap.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  You can see what a mess it is. This is the scene as it is right now. Alcohol played a role in an early morning crash that took the lives of five young men.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  A 36-year-old mother drove her minivan more than a mile and a half against traffic on a highway.

• 6:26Speaker 05

  A 12-year-old boy was hit.

• 6:28Speaker 06

  A charter bus with 55 churchgoers flew off a Texas freeway overpass. A pair of 20-somethings in the car, a male driver and a female passenger, never had a chance.

• 6:39Speaker 07

  Automobiles in general are probably the most dangerous machine we interact with.

• 6:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ian Savage is an economist at Northwestern who studies transportation safety.

• 6:49Speaker 07

  If you look at the only other one which would come close would be firearms, where if you include together their homicides, accidents and suicides, you're probably getting numbers which are sort of up in the same sort of 30,000 range.

• 7:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's 30,000 as in 30,000 deaths a year in the US alone from motor vehicle crashes. Last year, the exact number was 33,561. Worldwide, there are about 1.2 million deaths a year. Now, what is it that causes all those crashes? That's what we'll be talking about in today's program. One thing I'll tell you right off the bat is that more than 90% of those deaths are the result of driver error. It doesn't help that people like Steve Levitt are out there sending texts and looking for Miley Cyrus on the radio. Recent studies show that texting while driving roughly doubles your chance of crashing. Distracted driving would seem to be an obviously

• 7:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  bad idea. But before we go forward, let's go back to when the car was new, to the late 19th century. The cars then looked more like big bicycles than the cars we drive today, and the roads were essentially horse paths. They were rutted and muddy and clogged with manure. And back then, it was the cars that were the distraction. Lawmakers in the US and the UK tried to ensure that the car didn't cause too much trouble.

• 8:19Speaker 07

  Back in the very early days of automobiles, when people thought this was sort of going to scare the cows and the local populace, they for a while actually required people to walk in front of this newfangled machine, carrying a red flag, so the vehicle could proceed at sort of snail's pace and you're being warned that something new and unusual was coming.

• 8:44Speaker 08

  There were people who said that if God wanted people to get around in cars, he wouldn't have made horses.

• 8:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Carol Lambert. Her great-grandfather, John Lambert, was not one of those people. He is known as the inventor of the first gas-powered car in America. And, not too coincidentally, he's also known as having caused the first automobile crash.

• 9:10Speaker 08

  You know, there's a marker in Ohio City marking where that first accident took place.

• 9:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  What does that marker say?

• 9:17Speaker 08

  It says, "Site of America's First Accident."

• 9:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here's what happened.

• 9:24Speaker 08

  So John was sitting high on the seat of his car, and he had a passenger with him. And he knew darn well that the streets were rutted, and also there were tree stumps that dotted the roads, and roots were protruding. I'm kind of thinking he was talking to his buddy there. And the protruding root turned that little front wheel, and the car went peppering into the side of the road where there was a horse's hitching post.

• 9:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, that's very metaphoric somehow, that the car hits the horse's hitching post. It's like the future is trying to knock the past further into the past.

• 10:02Speaker 08

  Oh, that's, that's good, Stephen. I hadn't thought of that. That's good.

• 10:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  John Lambert and his friends survived the crash just fine, but today, more than a century later, we are all accustomed to the huge toll of traffic fatalities. Remember, more than 33,000 a year in the US alone. Over 10 years' time, that's more than 300,000 people killed from traffic accidents. It's nearly 1% of the current population. Traffic accidents are one of the leading causes of death in the US, and easily the top cause of accidental death. While the Great Recession curtailed driving a bit, and there's some talk that we may have reached peak motorization, there is still more of us driving more miles than

• 10:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  ever before, with more potential distractions, too. Our mobile devices, our lattes, our noisy kids, our podcasts.

• 11:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  But what if I told you that we've actually been getting safer? True story. Remember how Steve Levitt was telling us what a terribly distracted driver he is?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  I am an incessant channel changer on the radio. And I talk on the phone and I text. I'm pretty much a walking time bomb when it comes to driving.

• 11:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  What you're describing are all these distractions, many of which are modern ones. And then there are all these other technological and engineering and design improvements, which are also modern. So does this mean that the improvements are winning out over the distractions? Do you think that all the driving distractions that people worry about so much now are just being kind of washed away by the fact that we're getting better at keeping people from killing themselves in cars?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Well, the data certainly support that view. If you look at the path of fatalities on the roads per mile driven, it's an amazing success story.

• 12:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  And here again is Ian Savage, the Northwestern Economist.

• 12:07Speaker 07

  The rate of fatal crashes per automobile mile driven has declined by 2/3 since 1975.

• 12:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow. And so people understand there's a big difference, obviously, between rate and amount. So there are more people in the country and we drive more than we did in '75. So if you look at just the raw numbers, the number won't have fallen as much. But you're saying that the rate has fallen by about 2/3 in the last 40 years, yes?

• 12:35Speaker 07

  That's correct. In terms of a total count, we were up at just over 50,000 around about 1980. And now we're heading into the low 30,000s.

• 12:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow. So that is amazingly good news, yes? I mean, we can't deny that.

• 12:50Speaker 07

  Oh, no, it's excellent news, yeah.

• 13:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how did we get here? How did we get to the point where the rate of traffic deaths has fallen by 2/3 in the last few decades? Well, clever people have been thinking about how to make auto travel safer pretty much since the beginning of auto travel. Now, let's be clear, there has been a lot of trial and error. First, let's consider a few of the errors.

• 13:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Around the turn of the 20th century, there was a cow catcher on cars. A fender meant to scoop animals off the road. Didn't work so well. Later, there was a tire covered with suction cups, meant to improve grip, which was a failure. And the auto entrepreneur Preston Tucker, who had many great car ideas, also had this one, as described by automotive writer Brett Burke.

• 13:47Speaker 09

  He designed what they called a crash compartment, which was a padded area that was under the dash on the passenger side, where riders would crawl when a collision was imminent. Sort of an automotive bomb shelter. And the idea being, I guess, that you would have the wherewithal to jump out of your seat and jump into this padded crash compartment in the event of an accident.

• 14:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  OK. But there were a lot of good ideas, too. In 1917, for instance, there was a doctor in Indio, California, named June McCarrill, and she got sick of treating car crash victims. Here's Alison Frederick, a museum curator in India.

• 14:31Speaker 10

  She ended up being a bit of a celebrity because when they first started getting cars in that area, which the roads were predominantly dirt roads at that time, there were no lines on the road to separate it. There were so many car crashes and people flying out of their cars. It was sort of a pandemic problem. So she decided to paint a line down the areas of the dirt roads that were around Indio and nearest to her.

• 15:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Having a center line on the road will cut crash frequency by at least 20%. So, thanks, Dr. McCarrill. Even better than a center line is a center line with a rumble strip, which is one of the Federal Highway Administration's nine proven safety measures, along with things like roundabouts and safety edges. But wait, there's more.

• 15:31Speaker 07

  A surprisingly large proportion of highway fatalities occur when there isn't even a collision with another vehicle. So it's when a vehicle leaves the highway without prior collisions, over half of the fatalities.

• 15:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Ian Savage.

• 15:43Speaker 07

  And obviously, what you're doing there is you're either rolling off down the embankment or even something worse, you're colliding with a fixed object, usually a bridge abutment. So I think there's been a lot of developments in crash barriers, where you are improving the highway, but it isn't exactly the highway surface itself.

• 16:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  So all of these road improvements, any one of which may seem relatively minor, they've combined to save a lot of lives. Then there's the seatbelt, one of the most important auto safety inventions yet. The seatbelt came along in the 1950s, but it took a long time for it to catch on. Car makers did not like to promote the seatbelt because they worried that a seatbelt implied that cars were dangerous, which they were, especially back then when car interiors were made of much harder materials than they are today. Until the 1980s, seatbelt use was only 10 or 15%, but today, we're up to about 86%,

• 16:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  which is great news because a seatbelt reduces the risk of death by as much as 70%. And at about 25 bucks a pop, the seatbelt is one of the most cost-effective, life-saving devices ever invented. There's one life saved in the US for every $30,000 worth of seatbelts installed in cars, and compare that to about $1.8 million per life saved for an airbag. Ian Savage has some other ideas about why the auto death rate has fallen so much, especially since the 1970s. For starters, Savage says, there's a lot less drunk driving, thanks to tougher laws and social pressure.

• 17:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Over the last 10 years, alcohol-related traffic fatalities have fallen by 28%. Also, driver demographics have changed. Younger drivers tend to be more dangerous, and now, there are relatively fewer of them.

• 17:49Speaker 07

  I looked at the 1980 census, and sort of 18 to 29-year-olds were 30% of the population. By 2000, that number was down to 22%, which is what it is now. So in other words, the baby boom has passed its way through the, shall we say, the risky driver stage. So I think this is a really important aspect.

• 18:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Another factor, says Ian Savage, is increasing urbanization. Driving in a city might seem dangerous because there are a lot of other cars and people and buildings and whatnot, but rural areas, those wide open stretches where you can go a lot faster and hit a tree or another car, those are in fact three times more dangerous. So with more people living in cities, fewer traffic deaths. And then there are cell phones. That's right, cell phones. Ian Savage tells us that cell phones, as distracting as they would seem to be while you're driving, may also be responsible for saving lots of lives.

• 18:49Speaker 07

  You always hear the medical professionals talking about this whole golden hour of after the trauma occurs of getting high-quality medical care. So I mean, it's easy probably for you and me to remember not that long ago where if you had a crash in a rural area, boy, how would you go and phone to tell someone this has happened? You had to get a passing motorist who would have to drive to the nearest town or something like that. So clearly, there's that aspect to things. So I mean, I think that my observation of the cell phones and safety literature is that it's controversial. There are findings both ways in terms of the overall effect.

• 19:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  So cell phones may drive auto fatalities down in that they let us call for help after a crash, but as Ian Savage acknowledges, that benefit may be outweighed by the cost of the distraction.

• 19:46Speaker 07

  I do see that things have kind of morphed in the last 10 years. From 10 years ago, people worried about sort of drowsy driving, which I think we still are concerned about that, right? But I think it's morphed into this whole distraction.

• 20:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  So when we come back, you'll hear about driver distraction in many forms.

• 20:18Speaker 11

  We have evidence of people talking on two phones at once while smoking a cigarette, while driving through a work zone and running a yellow light. We've seen videos of drivers relieving themselves behind the wheel.

• 20:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  And we ask, what happens to driving when our cars learn to drive themselves?

• 20:36Speaker 12

  It will no longer be about the utility of getting from point A to B with automobiles. There'll be places like this around the country, kind of like horse ranches, where you can still enjoy the sport, but that's what it's about, is the experience, not about getting somewhere.

• 21:12Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 21:57Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 22:15Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 22:58Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 23:19Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 23:52Speaker 02

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 24:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  We are talking today about the most dangerous machine, the automobile, and what's made it less dangerous over time, but also the factors that do make it dangerous. Distractions, for instance. All the things we do while driving that we probably shouldn't be doing. But here's a question for you. When researchers are trying to figure out just how dangerous a given distraction may be, how do they know? They're obviously not sitting there in the passenger seat with distracted drivers. Where are they?

• 24:34Speaker 11

  My name is Greg Fitch. I'm a senior research associate at the Virginia Tech Transportation Institute.

• 24:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Greg Fitch's outfit is a leader in what's known as naturalistic driving studies. So, no, they don't ride along with drivers. They put video cameras in their cars. Now, I know what you're thinking. What about the observer effect? Won't a driver who's being taped always be on his best behavior? Greg Fitch says no.

• 25:00Speaker 11

  People soon forget that they're actually being recorded. And the way we are able to determine this is we see them do all kinds of ridiculous things that no one in their right mind would do if they're being videotaped, unless they're on a reality TV show. But, no, we have evidence of people talking on two phones at once while smoking a cigarette, while driving through a work zone and running a yellow light. We've seen videos of drivers relieving themselves behind the wheel. For the over-the-road drivers, we've seen examples of them actually meeting with a prostitute behind the wheel. So, these are things that you don't actually see in an empirical laboratory study. This is true driver behavior that we're capturing.

• 25:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So, when you can watch drivers driving and try to measure the effect of various distractions, what do you find? One conclusion: Talking on the phone doesn't seem to be a very big deal. Fitch says that people talk on a cellphone about 10% of the time they're driving. And he and his team found that whether a driver is holding the phone or not, that talking on the phone, while not recommended, does not increase the risk of a crash. In fact, it can even be associated with a positive outcome.

• 26:15Speaker 11

  It's been proposed that talking on the phone actually reduces boredom. There's been research that shows that people are more awake, more alert, up to 20 minutes after having a cellphone conversation. It's kind of like drinking a cup of coffee or taking a caffeine pill.

• 26:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  And if that's not surprising enough, how about this?

• 26:34Speaker 11

  A big theory that was proposed over the last two years is that people may actually be adapting or changing the way they drive while talking on the phone to mitigate the risk.

• 26:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  In other words, we seem to be getting better at multitasking, at least when it comes to driving and talking. But what if you stop talking on your phone and start using it for something else, like texting or checking your fantasy football lineup?

• 27:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is bad news.

• 27:02Speaker 11

  Anything that's dangerous behind the wheel, they all have a commonality. And that is, when you take your eyes off the road, you're at an elevated risk. It's been shown time and time again, reaching for the phone, dialing, texting, even putting the phone away are associated with an increased risk. Whether you're eating a burger, whether you're putting on makeup, you know, those all have commonalities, and that is, you should not take your eyes off the road when driving.

• 27:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  So there's a dilemma. We are so dependent on our cars, at least for the foreseeable future, but when driving them, we are our own worst enemy. It's nice to know that driving has gotten relatively safer, but remember, there's still 1.2 million traffic deaths a year worldwide, not to mention 20 to 50 million injuries and a financial cost of roughly half a trillion dollars a year. So what if we look at the slightly less foreseeable future? What if we look at the driverless car? Now, no one can say exactly when or how it will happen, but it could well be that

• 28:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  seven, or 10, or 15 years from now, most cars have the ability to drive us rather than vice versa. A lot of the necessary technology is already in a lot of cars, GPS and onboard computers, sensors and cameras. And just about every major carmaker, along with Google, is testing driverless cars with much success. Now, there will be a lot of wrinkles to work out, of course, but in theory, a computer-operated car will be much safer than a human-operated car. It won't drive drunk, or while putting on mascara, while trying to open the packet of ketchup. There will, of course, still be accidents. Fred Kreip worked for Allstate Insurance for 31 years. He's now a consultant.

• 28:56Speaker 13

  I think in the future, what you'll find is, when vehicles are involved in accidents, it will simply be a, okay, the guidance system didn't work in this case, and whoever's guidance system is in the vehicle pays for the loss.

• 29:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  I asked Ian Savage, the transportation economist, to try to predict some other advantages of the driverless car.

• 29:18Speaker 07

  When you talk about older drivers and diminished driving skills amongst older drivers, the autonomous vehicle could change their lives tremendously and also improve the safety of the pedestrians who have to walk around these elderly drivers driving on the streets. But I think the biggest gain is not going to be safety related. It's going to be in road space and the issue of congestion. Because if we can get by the issue of the fact that on most highways, there are large gaps between automobiles. So there's hence a lot of wasted space on the highway. If we can now have vehicles moving faster and closer together, we can make a big dent in urban highway congestion.

• 30:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Not long ago, I had a chance to ride in a driverless car. It was a Cadillac SRX4 that engineers at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh have been developing with General Motors.

• 30:20Speaker 14

  Before we actually drive, I'll show you a few things that you can look for while we're driving.

• 30:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  One of the engineers sat in the driver's seat, but he didn't drive.

• 30:29Speaker 14

  I just push a button that runs our system. So the car is telling us.

• 30:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sorry, what'd she say?

• 30:34Speaker 14

  Autonomous ready.

• 30:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  OK.

• 30:35Speaker 14

  So that means that everything is working. Everything's ready. The car can drive itself at this point.

• 30:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  He just put the car in autonomous mode, and then we rode along. Wow, that'd be great.

• 30:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  We weren't out on the street with live traffic, although Carnegie Mellon engineers have done that. We just rode around this big street grid that the university built on the site of an old steel mill. They set up impediments. There were bicyclists and pedestrians, other cars, construction barriers. And in each case, the Cadillac recognized and dealt with the impediment safely, with steer and brake and hit the turn signal, everything a human driver does, except check for emails or look for Miley Cyrus on the radio dial.

• 31:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  It was an extraordinary experience, but mostly because it felt so ordinary. There was nothing futuristic feeling about riding in a driverless car. In fact, it was pretty boring after the first 10 or 15 minutes, especially if you've ever ridden in, say, an airport shuttle train that's already fully autonomous, or an elevator. Technological marvels come along, we scoff at them, say they can't possibly work, but then when they do, we immediately forget our doubts and start looking for the next technological marvel. And what if the driverless car then really does take over? Will it be much, much, much safer than how we travel today?

• 32:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Probably, but for some people, especially people who love to drive, that may not sound like such a great trade-off. Safe is good, but boring is bad. How will future drivers get to experience the thrill of driving in a driverless world? Well, to get a taste of that, we visited a place that already exists. We leave you with our visit to the Monticello Motor Club in upstate New York, where driving isn't just something you do to get from here to there.

• 32:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm going to steal your car for a minute.

• 32:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why don't we hop in the car and drive around a little bit?

• 32:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  So we're going to go ahead and start up the 2013 Jaguar F-Type convertible.

• 33:08Speaker 12

  My name is Ari Strauss. I'm one of the partners and the managing member at Monticello Motor Club, which is an awesome private country club racetrack about 90 minutes northwest of New York City. I'm really an IT geek. My background is mostly startups in the healthcare and software field, but I'm also a huge enthusiast of cars, been racing for several years.

• 33:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, let's head up to the north course and see what it's like to take a lap in this.

• 33:38Speaker 12

  What I love about driving on a racetrack is that it's a sport that requires 100% concentration. It's adrenaline combined with the best of meditation. You can't think about anything else when you're on the racetrack.

• 33:54Speaker 12

  We're driving up now through the North Pits.

• 33:57Speaker 12

  We can also run the North configuration. It's a 1.9-mile twisty course simultaneously with our South course, which is 1.6 miles. We're entering the North Straight here. Let's give it a little more acceleration.

• 34:20Speaker 12

  Okay, what you hear is 495 horsepower V8 that's pushing us up to 140 miles an hour on that straight. As we're going around the racetrack, the first thing I feel is being pushed into the back of my seat every time I push the accelerator. Then when we come around turns, I'm being thrown to the side. Now, the seat is incredible, so it's holding me in place. As the engine just telling us it's alive and well.

• 34:53Speaker 12

  The safety of modern cars and modern race cars is a completely different world than even 10 years ago. You're surrounded by airbags. You're surrounded by pillars that are going to protect us, whatever happens to the car. A roll hoop behind you, an aluminum hoop that's meant to hold all the weight of this car if it were the shiny side up. Belts, restraint systems, even the contours of the seat, how we're held in here. And if there's an impact, well, usually what's heard is your ego, but not your body. In 20 years, this will be one of the beacons of experience for combustible cars.

• 35:37Speaker 12

  For people who drive for the thrill of driving, but it will no longer be about the utility of getting from point A to B with automobiles. There'll be places like this around the country, kind of like horse ranches, where you can still enjoy the sport, but that's what it's about, is the experience, not about getting somewhere.

• 36:02Speaker 12

  Did I steal your car? Okay. Not much faster than 60. A little bit faster. We can grab some lunch inside.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC and Dubner Productions. Our staff includes David Herman, Greg Rosalsky, Greta Cohn, Borey Lamb, Susie Lechtenberg, and Chris Bannon. If you want more Freakonomics Radio, you can subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or go to Freakonomics.com, where you'll find lots of radio, a blog, the books, and more.

• 37:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible, and when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9 milligrams, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit Ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 37:35Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 38:13Speaker 15

  Football season is here and the Fantasy Footballers are back to help you dominate your league. And this season, we're bringing you five episodes every week. That's more starts, more sits, more waiver wire wins, and more trades. From draft day all the way to your fantasy championship, we've got the rankings, the matchups, the news, and the advice you need to win. The Fantasy Footballers podcast, five episodes a week all season long. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 38:43Speaker 16

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