111: Why Avoidants Push Away What They Want Most With Mark Manson

In a conversation with Sabrina, Mark Manson shares insights on navigating relationships from the perspective of an avoidantly attached individual. Drawing from his 12-year marriage, Mark emphasizes the importance of open communication and realistic expectations, especially in long-distance relationships. He advises having clear end goals and intentional conversations about logistics and contact frequency to maintain connection. Diving into Mark’s own avoidant tendencies, he and Sabrina explain how avoidance often stems from fear rather than lack of care or feelings. Mark highlights the significance of allowing space in relationships and how his wife’s patience helped him transition from avoidant to secure attachment. For anxious partners, they stress the need to become comfortable with an avoidant partner’s need for space, noting that healing happens through gradual trust-building. Sabrina and Mark agree that understanding different standards and managing expectations are crucial for relationship success. Mark also touches on societal pressures, self-improvement, and the importance of addressing negative self-talk through journaling and mindfulness. Ultimately, they emphasize that thriving in life and love is about embracing challenges and fostering meaningful connections through honesty and self-awareness. Get Mark's book: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life Get Masha and Sabrina's new course, the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknown in Early Dating HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free episodes HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Guys, today we have such a special guest. We have Mark Manson here. Mark is fucking awesome. Like, when I started my journey, I had been following Mark. So it was truly just magical to be able to sit with him. And we did a pod swap, so you can hear me on his show too, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. But today, you know, it's funny, when Mark came on, at first I had this whole topic I was gonna hit. And he said one thing was, you know, I used to be a male dating coach. And that just took this episode into one of the best directions I ever could have asked for. And we really debunk all things avoidant from a former avoidant man. So I came right from the horse's mouth, y'all, and I'm really, really excited. So guys, as always, if you need anything, link in show notes.

• 0:45Sabrina Zohar?

  You can join one of the courses, get some free guides. Or as always, guys, you have the podcast, please don't forget to rate and review the show. Subscribe wherever you're listening to, and don't forget to share it with a friend. It helps us grow. And guys, as well, they've changed the way that they do things on these platforms. Don't forget to auto-download the episodes. That way you have them fresh in your inbox every morning when they come out, and you don't have to go searching for it. Otherwise, these platforms like to take us off of your downloads list, and then you lose us forever. Well, you don't lose us forever, but we wanna be with you guys along the way. So don't forget, guys. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And babes, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

• 1:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Mark, welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  It's good to be here.

• 1:34Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so excited.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  There's a lot of pink in the room.

• 1:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, for anyone who doesn't know, we're at Mark's studio. And it's now the Sabrina Zohar Show, so I'm super excited.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  It's a takeover, yeah.

• 1:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Fuck, yeah. Mark, if you could, I've been a fan of yours for a long time. But if you could, I like to always just start with, who are you? And if you could just introduce yourself to the audience in your own words.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  I'm best known for being an author. I wrote The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, as well as three other books. But I've also just done this internet thing, quote-unquote, "internet thing", for 17 years. So originally a blogger, now podcaster, YouTuber, speaker.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  All the things.

• 2:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Fuck, yeah.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  All the things.

• 2:13Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, I really, obviously, of course, love your content because you have the same mouth that I do. And we're not afraid as two former people who lived in New York to use the word fuck and not as sparingly. So I'm excited. But today, the really, like, the exciting part for me was to have you here because I think, I think you can really help our audience. And I think a lot of the stuff that you write about is very in line with what we're gonna talk about. And it's really about like, you know, how do you thrive in life and love? When you're not really feeling like you're thriving right now, you know? It feels really hard to fucking wake up. And I think, you know, for a lot of the predominant amount of the audience, it's a lot of people that are single. And so there's different, you know, aspects to it. But you've been with your wife for?

• 2:51Speaker 01

  12 years.

• 2:51Sabrina Zohar?

  12 years total. Can you share us, because I know you were talking about it, it's like a fun story. I've been waiting for this story. I'd love to know, because I'm curious, like, how did you guys meet? How did that evolve? And like, yeah, was it daisies and roses off the bat? Or was it something that was a little bit different and not, you know, the beaten path that I think, ah, people think that the relationship is gonna be?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, well, first of all, I met her in a nightclub. The old fashioned way.

• 3:13Sabrina Zohar?

  Bumping and grinding.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  She's Brazilian. I was in, I was traveling in Sao Paulo. Met her in a nightclub at about midnight. And she actually shot me down initially. So I walked up to her, I saw her come in the club. We made eye contact. I was like, goddamn, she's gorgeous. Saw her go to the dance floor. She was with a bunch of friends or whatever. And a few minutes later, I walked up to her, started talking to her. And she spoke, she speaks really good English now. At the time, she spoke decent English. But it was funny, like, she was doing the one word answer thing that women do. When like, they don't really wanna talk to you, but they're just, they wanna be polite.

• 3:54Sabrina Zohar?

  What? That's so weird.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  You have no idea what I'm talking about.

• 3:58Sabrina Zohar?

  They do that?

• 3:59Speaker 01

  So she was doing the one word answer thing, kinda looking around, like, being very distracted. And I was like, okay, she's clearly not into this at all. And by that point, I was 27, 28. By that point, I was experienced enough and mature enough as a man to understand that if a woman's not initially interested, you're never gonna convince her to be interested. Like, just let it go, right? It's- It's fine. It's not personal. Just whatever. Move on. Go talk to the next one. So by that time, I had developed a habit of, in that situation, I just politely thank her for her time and wish her a good night and move on.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  And so I did that. I said, you know, "Looks like you want to hang out with your friends, so I hope you have a good night. It was great meeting you." And I like walked away. And she was incredibly impressed by that, especially in Brazil. Like, the men are very aggressive and kind of disrespectful. So she was like, "Wow, I've never seen a guy do that before." And jump ahead about four hours later, I literally bumped into her on the dance floor, like was moving and somebody bumped into me and I turned around and it was her. And she was suddenly like way more friendly. It turned out that she had been, she was like being hit on by a creepy guy for like the past two hours. And so then when she saw me, she was like, "Wait, this guy was really cute. Why did I blow this one off? What was I doing?"

• 5:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks creepy guy!

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Thanks creepy guy. And so we started talking and at the time too, you know, for people listening who don't know, I actually started my career as a dating coach. So...

• 5:40Sabrina Zohar?

  You did?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  You didn't know this?

• 5:42Sabrina Zohar?

  I didn't know that!

• 5:44Speaker 01

  I did.

• 5:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, Mark.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  I was a dating coach for about five years, men specifically, yeah.

• 5:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, we'll get to that. Go on.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  We'll definitely talk about that. So one of my, whenever I like met a woman that was interested, kind of my go-to question at the beginning of the conversation was always, "What's your favorite thing in the world?" Because obviously, everybody loves to talk about their favorite thing in the world. And then you immediately find out what they value and what they care about and you can see if you align on it.

• 6:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh god. As you were saying that, I was like, "Dessert."

• 6:15Speaker 01

  I love ice cream!

• 6:17Sabrina Zohar?

  And then I see what you care about and I'm like, "Fuck, you shallow bitch."

• 6:23Speaker 01

  And so I was living abroad at the, so I was living nomad, nomadic at the time. I had an online business, I was traveling around the world, I was living in all these different countries, so I was spending three months in Brazil. And I asked her, we started talking and one of the first things I asked her, I said, what's your favorite thing in the world? And she immediately said, travel. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I've actually been traveling the world the last four years. I've been to 55 countries. And then from there, it was, that was it.

• 6:47Sabrina Zohar?

  That's so rad.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  We talked until probably five, six in the morning.

• 6:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. And this is, but this is like, you, obviously, dating apps were not a thing, but obviously a fucking communication. So you were living there and then that was it? You guys just kept dating and then when you were ready to leave, were you like, hey?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  So we kept, we kept dating and then probably like, it got, it was intense pretty quickly. But we got like a month in and it was clear, like I was, I was gonna leave a few weeks later. And so there was kind of this awkward, like, what are we, what are we, what are we gonna do? We talked about it. Neither of us had a whole lot of interest in doing some sort of long distance relationship thing. And so it was kind of clear that like, hey, this is probably gonna end in a couple of months. And, and that's sad and that's unfortunate, but you know, this was amazing and we really care about each other and everything. And so I left after a couple of months and we kept in touch.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  And as the months went on after I left, I just found myself like talking to her all the time, you know, just messaging her and we would have these great conversations. And then we started having, you know, like Zoom conversations and FaceTimes and, and finally, I, I was in Colombia, maybe four or five months later, and she was like, you know, I'm gonna come up and visit you. And I was like, okay, great. And so she came up, we spent like maybe a three day weekend together. And then it was just clear. It was like, okay.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  We're an idiot if we don't figure out, like, if we don't pursue this. So it was there, we kind of figured it out. She was like, you know, if I save up for a year, I can take a year-long sabbatical and I can travel with you. And I was like, okay, if you do that, I'll come live in Brazil for a year. And so we agreed on that and that like bought us two years of runway. And so we did that and then she started traveling with me and then we never stopped.

• 8:43Sabrina Zohar?

  So what I love about this story is a couple of things, more than a couple, but specifically is, I think, because we do get a lot of people, like especially now with dating apps, it's so easy to meet someone that doesn't live there by you. And for me personally, I've never been a fan of long distance of like, oh, well, we met on an app, we talked for six weeks, we met each other once, and now we're going to pursue this. And you're like, okay, is that realistic? Who has the money? Can you go back and forth? Like, there's a lot of nuance here. But what I love is that you didn't walk in being like, no, I have to make this work. And it has, you surrendered, you kind of released control, the outcome of like, let's see if this happens. And if it doesn't, this was beautiful because I feel like, and now correct me if I'm wrong, that also takes the pressure off so then you can genuinely fucking connect.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And the lack of expectation, I think, was really important. It's funny too, because she and I had both been through long-distance relationships previously. And so I think we had made, we knew the mistakes that you could make and we were both very determined to not make those mistakes again with each other. And so we communicated very clearly about that. Like, she would tell me, she was like, you know, when I did long distance with this guy, this is all the things that went wrong and why it went wrong. And I had similar stories, right? And so we shared those with each other and then we were able to kind of navigate. And honestly, just be realistic about, I think, again, at that point, I was 28, she was 30.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  We had both been in enough relationships at that point to kind of be adults and understand, like, just because you love somebody doesn't mean it's going to work out. And just because you're great together doesn't mean you necessarily should be together. And That there are other things that you need to like make sure and check and before you you jump in headfirst.

• 10:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. Real quick.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's talk about those things that you did in long distance that didn't work. Because I like for me, okay, I've done the long distance thing. People ask every fucking day, please do an episode on long distance. And I'm like, okay, I'm cynical. So I'm gonna come at this of like, doesn't work, I don't like this, and I'm not, because I've had negative experiences. But I would be curious as somebody who would like actually has had like experiences where like, I tried this. What did you see work? What didn't work? Like, I'm genuinely curious of like your experiences with that.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  The the number one thing that I think about long distance relationships is there has to be an end point. There has to be a plan to get out of the long distance, right? Like, what I have found is that if there's a couple and they're like, you know what? We're doing this for two years, but then he's gonna finish school and then he's gonna move back, or I'm gonna move over there and change jobs or whatever. As long as there's an end date, you can make it.

• 11:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  If there's no end date, if there's no game plan, if it's just like, well, he's 2,000 miles away and we talk every night, it's gonna go nowhere.

• 11:27Sabrina Zohar?

  And especially like, I had one friend I had, and she she and her husband were long distance, I think for on and off for 10 years. Like, they were together for like 10 or 12 years. And it was always like, a job would take one away and, you know, things like that. And the one thing she always said, she was like, a couple of things. One, she was like, remember, it's not that it's his place, or her place, or your place, they's whoever we are. She was like, it's that you both have a place, you know? So like, let's say Brazil, and let's say you were here in LA. Okay, well, you guys have a place in Brazil and LA. It's not, I'm going to her place and she's coming to mine.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:56Sabrina Zohar?

  That, the end game, have a fucking end game. There's no use in just this inevitable, like, I'll get the, you know, we both have three kids and we work a job and like, we don't even have the time, but like, I really wanna make this work. And it's like, I mean, anything short of growing another version of you.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:10Sabrina Zohar?

  So that you can then maintain your life, there isn't a reality here. But the other aspect that I thought was really important, and I was curious to see if you guys had done this, was she was like, every time we left each other, we had plans to see each other again. And she was like, we we were clear about not just the like, okay, I'll see ya.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah, I mean, you really have to, there's a logistical side of it that is actually hugely important. It's not romantic, it's not sexy, but you really do have to have these boring logistical conversations of like, pulling out your calendars and being like, okay, what weekend can you make work? And, okay, what about November? What does that look like for you? And like, I can come for three days, but it's gonna be weird, my mom's gonna be in. It's like, okay, well, we'll figure it out when that happens. It's not. Sexy or fun or romantic, you're not gonna see it in any movie. But that's the nuts and bolts that's required. And I think the communication. I think communicating expectations as well is extremely important in terms of like, how often are you gonna talk on the phone?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  How often, like if you text them and they don't respond for a day is like, is that gonna be a problem? Or, you know, how often do you wanna be in contact? How often do you wanna be checking in with each other? How often do you expect phone calls for each other? If you're not clear about that as well, then you're just gonna have a bunch of very preventable fights along the way.

• 13:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. And same with like, even also knowing, I would imagine, like you, what are your threshold is that you're accepting? You know, I had some people write in saying, you know, oh, well, I wanna meet, like the person I'm dating, he's going out to dinner with a woman and I'm not okay with this. And it's like, yeah, if I were on the receiving end of that, I'd be like, I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to go out to dinner with a friend. Like, that's too of like, understanding as well that, like you said, just because you might care about each other, just because you love each other, doesn't necessarily mean you're right for each other.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:56Sabrina Zohar?

  But I think when it comes to long distance especially, because yeah, you do have an added, I mean, you have a fucking literal wedge in between. You can't just say, hey, I'm coming over or I'll see you in an hour. And I think especially those with like that high anxiety, I can't see this being a positive at the end.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  I think that's, it's a really good point. Like, you can definitely survive jealousy in person, but in long distance, if one or both people are very jealous, you're not gonna have a good time.

• 14:22Sabrina Zohar?

  It doesn't sound it.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  No, it's not, it's not gonna go well.

• 14:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Did you ever have that?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Uh, yes.

• 14:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  And it fucking sucked. Like, it was, you know, this was back in the Facebook days, so.

• 14:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, the days.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  You know, so it would be something like, I don't know, like a friend of mine would post photos of me at a party and tag me and it's, you know, it's me drinking and there's like two or three girls next to me. Next thing I know, I'm getting messages like, who's this girl? Who is she? How do you know her? How long were you there? What time did you go home? You know, I'm like, I don't, I don't.

• 14:55Sabrina Zohar?

  When you seem, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem so much more secure, right? Like, I don't, and is that something that you would feel like you resonated? Or did you more so go lean a different way? I mean, over the years you've grown.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  I was very avoidant.

• 15:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  For, for a long time, yeah.

• 15:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Interesting. How did that manifest for you?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 15:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Because it's different slightly for everybody.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  I like literally got on planes and went to another country.

• 15:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Really, remember that nomadic thing?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That wasn't a coincidence.

• 15:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, curious though. When you met your wife?

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:24Sabrina Zohar?

  What shifted for you? Or were you at that point ready? Because I think this is an important question we need to clarify for people listening like, oh, he's avoided, I can change him. It's like, no.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, you can't. I mean, you can definitely influence. And, and if the person is aware of their insecurity and their issues and already working on it, you can contribute and help. But if, if he's not, A, not aware of his insecurity issues and B, not willing to work on it, there's nothing you can do. I mean, that's just true with everybody, like, no matter what issue is going on. But for me personally, I, I had a long history of avoidance. Was a very, in my previous relationships was, you know, in my teens and early twenties, was just a very unavailable boyfriend. I would kind of freak out a lot and push away. Um, I was unfaithful a number of times.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  And then when I became single in my twenties and I started this whole nomadic thing. I mean, at first it was just, it felt like the world was my playground. I mean, I'd basically go to a new country every couple of months, go out and party every other night, meet a bunch of local girls. I was having fun, it was great, you know? And then anytime I start to like feel too close to somebody, it's like, oh, well, you know, my visa's expiring and time to go.

• 16:42Sabrina Zohar?

  The cab is here, the flight is going.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's having a nice life.

• 16:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Were you aware of it? Like, prior to that, were you cognizant of like, oh, I think I'm pushing her away? Because I, I'm gonna use you for this second because it's interesting for me to understand inside the brain, outside of my partner, who's the only other like avoidant I can really pick. Prior, with somebody who has that avoidant tendency.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:02Sabrina Zohar?

  I think the question we hear all the time is like, well, don't they know? I don't understand. How do they not see it? Why won't they let me in? And I'm curious, from your perspective, that's all we really have right now. Were you really conscious? Like, were you seeing it in these relationships where you're like, hey, I'm shutting down. I'm pushing this person away? Or was it significantly more subtle than that?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Uh, I was definitely aware of it. What people have to understand is that an avoidant doesn't see it as a bad thing.

• 17:27Sabrina Zohar?

  It's not to do anxious.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's, it's, it's, you know, yeah, anxious, anxious people suffer. Like, you're, you're kind of constantly on this emotional roller coaster and you're constantly suffering. As an avoidant person, I like being alone. Like, I, I enjoy being by myself. And so, to me, there's like not, there wasn't a whole lot of downside. On top of that, I'm having this fun, exciting life. I'm dating all these interesting people. I'm going to all these different countries, learning about their cultures. I was having a great time. And I think part of it, you know, I was vaguely aware of it at the time. But I think I, I kind of justified it because I'm like, you know, I'm young.

• 18:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  I'm in my twenties. This is, if there's any time in my life to kind of just go wild and have all these experiences, this is the time to do it. Uh, there, there's always going to be time to settle down later. So I didn't feel particularly pressured or any incentive to like, deal with it or address with it.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  What changed is that after probably three or four years of kind of doing the nomad bachelor lifestyle, it started to become unsatisfying.

• 18:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Like, what, actually what started happening is I started meeting, there were

• 18:44Speaker 01

  probably two or three women that I met that I really liked. And then I had to go.

• 18:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  And, and at that point, it was like, you know, visas expiring. Like, it is, it was actual, I have to go. Like, legally, I have to go, or I have to like, start paying taxes here. And that was really hard. And, and then, you know, in some of the places, it was, it was difficult because it's like, yeah, you kind of keep, keep in touch with them. But it, they have their own lives and then they go meet another guy, a local guy. And some of the countries, it's like, I'm probably never going to go back there, right? So it, it, it started to become a little bit disappointing and dissatisfying. And by the time I met my wife,

• 19:26Speaker 01

  I was already in that place a little bit where I was like, you know, this isn't sustainable. At some point, I need to be willing to compromise. And it's funny because I remember it.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  There was it. The last time it happened was probably three or four months before I met my wife. I met a woman. And I remember after that experience, I like told myself, I'm like, the next time. I'm going to be willing to compromise. Even if it like freaks me out, I'm at least going to give it a shot because like, I can't keep doing this. This is killing me. And so by the time I met my wife, I was like, okay.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Why don't I max out my visa here in Brazil? And then let's see where, see where it goes, right? Like, give it a chance at least, like be willing to work with her.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  And then, and see what happens.

• 20:15Sabrina Zohar?

  To me, that's the epitome of like, talk about proximity and timing. Right? Because like my mom, since I was a kid, my mom, I would always say like, sure, you can love somebody. But if you're not in the right place in your life or in the proximity.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 20:25Sabrina Zohar?

  This ain't gonna happen.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 20:26Sabrina Zohar?

  And because you're very similar, you're my, my partner, like he was very just like super avoidant, just like, well, I don't need that. Traveling everywhere. And then when we met, he said the same thing. He was like, I was ready, like, I just kind of knew I was done with this, like avoidance bachelor lifestyle. Started doing the work. And to me, I was like, yeah, if we had met a year prior, like if you had met your wife prior to that.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  We talk about that all the time.

• 20:45Sabrina Zohar?

  You would have just been on the next flight.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 20:47Sabrina Zohar?

  And so I think it's just, we have to put a pin of how important proximity and timing is in someone's life. That if you meet somebody, now I am not a fan of right person, wrong time. What makes them a right person is that they're there at the right time, right?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:58Sabrina Zohar?

  Sure, yeah, I could have met, like, I have so many people in the past, they're like, man, that was amazing. Right? What a connection. Just didn't, didn't pan out. That doesn't mean I don't love my partner. That doesn't mean that I discredit that. Wasn't in a place in my life for this.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:09Sabrina Zohar?

  So I think it's just, I love to exemplify the importance. And I think your story is so fucking clear and critically understanding that it doesn't matter how amazing you are. It doesn't matter how amazing they are. If that person's not ready and willing, being able to see you and receive you. You could dance and star, like, I mean, I would be curious, how many women try to change her mind?

• 21:30Speaker 01

  I mean, some, but it's as an avoidant, anytime a woman starts trying to change my mind, I'm like, oh, I'm out of here.

• 21:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks for proving my point.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, I'm not even gonna listen to this.

• 21:42Sabrina Zohar?

  My favorite part is I just can see, we call a tech guy is my partner. I could see him in the corner, just like laughing and shaking his head. Because I think it's important, like people have heard me talk about it. But it's important to hear it from somebody. You're not a bad person. There's nothing wrong with you. You're not doing this to be mean. And we have such a villainization of avoidance that it hurts me to see. Because I'm like, you guys are good people. You just, you handle things differently.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to understand too, that an avoidant, it's like, a lot of the women I bailed on, I actually really liked and cared about them. Like, it wasn't even that I didn't like them. It wasn't that I wasn't attracted to them. It wasn't that I didn't care about them, or that I didn't even have feelings for them. Like, most of them I did. It's just, two things. One is, it, the more that those feelings arose, the more it would kind of freak me out. And then two, I was in that place in my life where I'm like, yeah, I'm not ready for this. Like, this isn't, I can't do this yet. Not, not quite. And it wasn't, so this is gonna sound trite, but it wasn't personal. It really wasn't personal.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  I dated a lot of great women that, to your point, if I had met at another time in my life, very easily could have ended up with them.

• 22:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  But it wasn't, I wasn't personally, like, ready for that, or mature enough to handle it.

• 23:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Anytime I hear the, like, was I not enough for them? I'm not good enough? I'm not worthy? I'm like, okay, let's flip the script. Imagine you're dating, you're going on a date with someone and you're like, I'm not feeling it. And they're saying, but was I not good enough? You're like, what? That has nothing to do with it.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:16Sabrina Zohar?

  Because anytime I hear that, I was like, yeah, I definitely was in that day. Like, when I was really in my anxious brain. Because that's my core belief, right? I don't think I'm enough. And so when I meet someone that's unavailable, you're like, see? It's like, well, yeah, because he was on a plane. Like, the writing was on the wall. It really isn't about you now.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 23:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Sometimes it can be, right? Like, but that doesn't mean that that's that person's attachment style. That could just mean that you're not a match.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 23:39Sabrina Zohar?

  But I think- I don't know, I was just really excited to jump on this bandwagon with you. And I'm curious, because when I asked Ryan about his process to move on from, because people ask all the time, like, you talk about that anxiety to secure, but what about going from avoidance to secure? And Ryan had a spreadsheet, he had like a whole thing, that's his tech brain. He had a process of like, you know, challenging, da, da, da, da. But what was yours in the moment? I'm genuinely curious, like, I would imagine when you first met your wife, you were triggered, you were feeling like you want to shut down, or like, this is uncomfortable, I don't want to do this. Was there anything specific that you like implemented or worked on, or that really helped? Because I think for anybody also listening that's dating someone more avoidant, how can we support in that journey?

• 24:21Speaker 01

  So I can think of two things. One is mostly on her, and then one was something I did. So she was great about it. I, she and I haven't talked about it in these terms, but I assume that some, some of the previous guys she dated, she's dated avoidance before me. So, because she just seemed to kind of intuitively know how to react and deal with it. But it's, you know, she and I had some very frank conversations, and I was very open about, you know, my insecurities and my issues and all that. And she was very understanding, she was non-judgmental about it. And she just kind of understood that like, if I started to get weirded out and needed space, or needed to get away, she just let me have it.

• 25:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Right? Because, and I guess this is probably an important thing to understand about an avoidant. If an avoidant like feels a need to get away, let them get away. Because what will happen is, if they really like you, they'll start missing you. And they'll be like, wait, why did I, why did I get away? I, she's really cool, why, what am I doing over here? And, and then they'll come back on their own.

• 25:24Sabrina Zohar?

  But I liked her, I liked her.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  But if you chase them, you're just reaffirming their insecurity.

• 25:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  You're just, you're feeding into their anxiety further, and so they're just going to run even faster. So it's a little bit of a paradoxical thing. And she was very good about like, if I needed space, she'd let me have it. She wouldn't judge, she wouldn't be harsh or create drama or anything. So that was very much on her. The thing that I did, you know, I, by that point, I was able to look back at my previous relationships and realize that I had kind of blown them up for really stupid reasons. And, and basically looking for an escape hatch. I was like, trying to invent escape hatches. And By the time I got to my wife, I was like, you know what? This is really great.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Like, she's very, very special. It's okay if it doesn't work, but if it doesn't work, it can't be for a dumb reason. It can't be because I invented some drama in my head and got upset over something stupid or behaved in a very stupid and disrespectful way. Like, if it doesn't work with her, it needs to be for a legit reason. And so in those first couple of years, I definitely had bouts of anxiety and periods where I was like, oh, my God, what am I doing here? I gotta get out of here. I gotta go somewhere. I gotta bang other girls. You know, like, start like, you know, scratching my neck like, ah.

• 26:53Sabrina Zohar?

  You're Jonesing in the corner.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  And I would just kind of remind myself like, all right, dude, it's okay you're feeling this. Don't do anything stupid. Like, it's... And sometimes I would even have to go kind of through this thought process because one of the things that happens when you're avoidant as well is... I mean, we like to think that we're rational creatures, but like, really, our brains just kind of justify whatever we're feeling, right? So as an avoidant, when you start just having this intense unconscious need to get away from somebody, your brain starts inventing reasons to get away from them. You start like spotting... I even noticed it to a certain point where like, women that I... like, who are objectively gorgeous,

• 27:42Speaker 01

  when I was... when my avoidance was triggered, I would... they would appear ugly to me.

• 27:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah. Totally get that.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Like, physically look ugly to me. And I was starting noticing every imperfection, like, anything in their behavior that was like just even slightly awkward or distasteful, like, it would just be magnified times 100. And when I was younger, I used to react to that. I used to think that that was real. And, uh, but by the, by the point, by the time I got to my wife, I realized, I'm like, no, this is just my brain fucking with me. This is just a funhouse mirror that happens when I started getting freaked out. And so when those moments would come, I would just remind myself, I'm like, this isn't real. This isn't real. It's gonna pass. Don't blow this up for a stupid reason. Make sure it's a good reason. And sometimes I would even

• 28:30Speaker 01

  journal and like go through, I'm like, okay, why am I thinking about ending my relationship? And I would like list, like start listing out the reasons. And I'm like, okay, are these reasonable, are these reasons a rational person would have? And I'm like, nope, nope, nope. Okay, never mind. Close the journal.

• 28:50Sabrina Zohar?

  I appreciate the challenging thoughts. It's so funny to hear you say that as someone who had more avoidance because on the anxious flip, notice how it's both of them are like secure people, right? The person that you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this would be good for me, not the super anxious girl or super avoiding guy. And it's the same thing. You're like, oh, his jeans are too tight. And it's like, you thought he was sexy? No, no, no, that hairline is going and I can see I lost a hip. It's gone. And you'll find anything. And I think, cause a lot of people will ask, well, how do I know the difference? And it's like, you can tell the difference between saying, you know, when I'm with this person, I don't feel safe. I don't feel emotionally safe or the, you know, versus finding something of like, he has a Velcro wallet. And you're like, you guys, the icks are getting out

• 29:34Sabrina Zohar?

  of hand. But I wanted to, I did want to ask you something else. When you were coaching men specifically, cause I didn't realize that you were like predominantly that, were you noticing anything specific? Cause we hear so many, like all of the, a lot of the content and things that we have, it's about a women perspective. And then we'll get the red pill men of like, women belong in the kitchen. And you're like, next. But from someone who's significantly more rational, like level headed, I would be curious, what did you see from their perspective? I think this episode is really beautiful because we get to hear another perspective and a totally different thought process. That's not that different. It's just a male version of me and I'm fucking stoked about that. But I would love to know when you were working with these men and you were in this world, like what were you hearing that the frustrations and things that they were struggling with?

• 30:19Sabrina Zohar?

  And is there anything that we can offer the audience, especially if it's the female audience listening, or male, if you're dating men, that would be able to help? Because I think we're still not understanding a lot of things.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, from my perspective, I personally believe that men and women both have very legitimate frustrations in dating. The problem is, is that the things that are frustrating the women and the things that are frustrating the men tend to be opposite of each other. Or like, they tend to be things, like the things that are frustrating the men are things that women don't have to deal with. And the things that are frustrating the women are things that men don't have to deal with. So they, they kind of talk past each other. They don't realize that the other one is, is suffering as well. And on the male side, it's, it's really simple. And it's the simple fact that men, by and large, are socially and culturally expected to initiate everything.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  And to initiate anything, you have to put your reputation on the line, put your emotions on the line, make yourself vulnerable, expose yourself to rejection, expose yourself to embarrassment in front of your peers. And that's really fucking hard. And so most, I would say, probably at least 50% of the clients I had when I was a dating coach, it was just pure anxiety. It was like, I don't know how to talk to a woman I'm attracted. I get too nervous. Like, I'm, I'm literally scared to talk to her. Because what if she says this? What if she makes fun of my hair? What if she like, likes my friend more than me? You know, like, it's all these things.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  And so with men, it's, it's, a lot of the work is just courage. It's just like, doesn't fucking matter, dude. Like, just shoot your shot. If it misses, it misses. It happens to all of us, right? It's just kind of reassuring them that it's gonna be okay. On the female side, so to that point, a lot of those men, a lot of men who are very frustrated in their, their dating romantic lives, they look at women and they're like, well, every cute girl I know gets...

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Can like be with any guy she wants. She gets approached all the time. Like 50 guys swipe right on her all the time, right? Like it must be so easy to be a woman. This is so unfair. Oh, my God, women are so spoiled and entitled like they don't. You know, and so you can, I can see what leads down that path.

• 32:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Like, and I've seen, I've watched a lot of men go down that path. And I've tried to pull a lot of men back from that path. But it's, I also, I also sympathize with why they end up there. Because it does seem unfair. Like, if you're the type of guy who is so anxious and scared to open your mouth in front of a woman that you're attracted to, and then you see that same woman get hit on by, you know, a dozen douchebags who treat her like shit, and then watch her complain that every guy she meets treats her like shit. Like, of course, you're gonna be bitter. Of course, you're gonna be bitter. So I, I, I understand that. What men don't understand is that the, the female frustration is that, yes, you are constantly exposed to men who are attracted to you,

• 33:27Speaker 01

  but you have no choice over the men you're exposed to. You don't get to decide which douchebag comes up to you at the bar. You don't get to decide, you don't get to decide the, the, uh, uh, you know.

• 33:39Sabrina Zohar?

  6'5" dude that comes up and corners you in a bar and you're like, fuck, okay, let me just be polite.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Right, like.

• 33:44Sabrina Zohar?

  How do I get out of this?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Am I gonna be assaulted? Is he gonna follow me? Like, is he, you know, what the fuck is going on here? Right? Like, men don't understand that aspect of it. And, and then I think women look at men like, wow, men never have to worry about.

• 33:58Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Men never have to worry about like a guy following, following him to his car. Like, men don't ever have to worry about like being physically overpowered or, um, you know, being hit or, you know.

• 34:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Walking alone on the street at night.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 34:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Little things that we, I see my partner who's at your, you guys are of similar stature. And I'm look, I'm like, what does it feel like to just be able to leave the house? And not have to worry about, is my chest showing? Is my butt out? Are my clothes too tight? Am I gonna get hit on by this person? Shit, it's dark at night, I don't feel comfortable, now this guy's following me. It's like, there is a lot of variables.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So men don't see that. And, and women suffer and struggle a lot with that. And they see that men don't deal with that. And they're like, wow, it must be so easy to be a guy. They're so lucky. They have it so easy. Why are they complaining? Right? So I just feel like the, the, the sexes like don't see where, where the other one is struggling.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  But to answer your question of like what I, the biggest one was courage and anxiety. And then the other one, and this is like, this is kind of sad, but it's true. The other one was just social skills, like a lot, I can't tell you how many guys I worked with who are like genuinely really good guys, smart, successful, like went to a good school, have a good job, a lot of them, like a lot of them were good looking and never had a girlfriend, never had any sort of romantic experience, socially awkward, shy, a lot of them, I had a lot of like doctors and lawyers who were like, I was studying 80 hours a week for the last 15 years, so I just literally never went on a date because I didn't have time.

• 35:35Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like Arrested Development almost.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 35:37Sabrina Zohar?

  They're like stuck at that.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  And so they're 30, but they have like the social skills of an 18 year old. And, and so it was kind of my job to be like, okay, so, you know, here's socializing 101.

• 35:49Sabrina Zohar?

  God, and so it's wild we have been, we don't think about that, right? Especially us being so social creatures that we're like, yeah, people do struggle with that.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:56Sabrina Zohar?

  It's so interesting, to your point, 100%. I see so many similar things and I think you put it so well that the sexes really don't, and like of course, obviously same sex. I hear you, I get it, I got my gays, I love my gays, don't get me wrong, I get it, it's hard, two men, okay, or two women, like I understand, two, they, whatever pronoun, I don't give a shit, I respect you, two humans coming together depend, it doesn't matter, you're gonna have your shit. And so it's going to be a struggle. What I really see is like you're, to your point, is I see, I'll see the inside of the men, right? Because I do have, I've quite a lot of male clients and then I've got my females. And I'll see my females predominantly dealing with this like, they don't want, I'm not enough, I'm not good enough, why don't they want me? But I'm trying and I'm doing everything, why won't he just let me in?

• 36:40Sabrina Zohar?

  And you're like, oh, okay. Let's work on that. But then I'll get the guys, and I try to explain this to the audience from like, you don't hear what they're telling somebody of this, just this confusion of like, you know, I don't want to like, do I Keanu Reeves and just like not touch them because I don't want them to feel inappropriate? Do I pursue, am I pursuing too much? Is she interested or is she playing a game? I don't really understand how to read this. Or then I'll get the like, stage five clinger where they're like, hey, yeah, I went on two dates with this girl and she's saying I was like physically, like mentally abusive to her. And you're like, what? Like, and so it's, it's a lot of, I think what we really see is that like, both parties are dealing with their own shit.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Same with anxious, avoidant, I'm give a fuck. Everybody is dealing with their own stuff. And I feel like I was like that one quote I saw of like, if you knew how often people project on to you, oh, you'd take things way less fucking personally.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 37:31Sabrina Zohar?

  It is wild. Okay. I have a couple of questions that I'm going to get into a lightning round, but I wanted to take another couple at the avoidant aspect, just because you're, I'd love your thoughts on this. Or even if you just have anything that you want to share. Because the number one thing that I get from, again, most of the audience is predominantly anxious. That's the people that come because you know, when you're anxious, you're like, this hurts, I want to heal it.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:51Sabrina Zohar?

  The avoidant, like you said, the avoidant people are like, I don't know, this feels pretty good.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  I'm good.

• 37:54Sabrina Zohar?

  I can just be alone, right?

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Just go play some video.

• 37:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. So, and I think like anytime, you know, Ryan and I will be like, anyway, even live. And it's like, people are always, you know, asking questions of like, one, you know, can I get them to change? Well, we know that you can't. But I think what I'd be curious, is there any last bit of feedback or tips or anything you'd like to give the audience of like, hey, okay. So if you're somebody that's going to date somebody more avoidant, you've got to understand outside of the space, either it be like, have hobbies outside of this, like have your own life, be focused on you, but is there anything that we can kind of leave the audience with on dating people that are avoidant so that we can remove some of the stigma? And just help a little bit more to have real relationships. Because if I listened to the clickbait on the internet, I wouldn't be with my partner.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:39Sabrina Zohar?

  If I had listened, because we hooked up on the first date, we met on Hinge, I was like, I'm not going to see this guy again. And he was more avoidant, he wasn't texting every day, you know? And I, I think that maybe we can even just touch on that of like, there's this, it's just one text and why don't they just text me? I don't understand. And it's like, right off the bat, even hearing that, it's not about the text.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:57Sabrina Zohar?

  But I would be curious, just what you've seen, especially in that world, anything we can offer on this?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  I think it's just important to be aware that your standards and expectations for things like communication, for intimacy, for doing things together, like, everybody has a different standard around that stuff. And avoidant is generally going to be, their standard is going to be much lower, right?

• 39:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  So, to an avoidant, a text a day feels like a lot, right? And it's not that they don't-

• 39:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Don't I know it.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's not that they don't like you, it's not that they don't care, it's not that they're not thinking about you, it's just like, that's a lot, right? And it's, so it's, again, it's not personal. And then I just think that the most important thing you can do is learn to be comfortable, if somebody is pulling away from you, learn to be comfortable allowing them to do it. Because one of two things is gonna happen. Either they're gonna disappear, in which case they're doing you a favor, because it was never gonna work anyway, or two, they're gonna come back, and they're gonna feel more comfortable and secure, because they were able to have that space when they needed it, they felt comfortable having that space, they feel comfortable coming back, and that

• 40:09Speaker 01

  is the actual healing process for the avoidant, is seeing that like, oh, okay, I can freak out when things get too close, but nothing goes wrong. Like, there's no fire to put out, there's no drama-

• 40:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Airplane didn't fall from the sky.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  We're not gonna fight about it, like, it's okay, it's gonna be fine. And, over time, that becomes less and less. Like, I don't, I don't feel a need to get away from my wife anymore. I haven't in a long time. I don't, I don't feel, in fact, now, if I'm away from her for like, more than a couple days, I fucking miss her like crazy, you know? So like, it's, over time, that need to get away, that need for space, that need for isolation, or being alone, like, it becomes less and less and less, until it's just not there anymore.

• 40:53Sabrina Zohar?

  We hurt in relationships, we heal in relationships. I know when my partner and I first started dating, I shared this story before, but like, it would literally be if I stayed over, which we didn't do sleepovers very often, I don't sleep well in someone else's bed, so, for anyone who asks, I am the one who wants to sleep on my own bed? It's not, it's like, it's a new thing. But, I remember, like, it would be Saturday, and I'm like, oh, I got a Saturday night, I get to sleep over on a Saturday night, like, cool, we can just like, lounge all day on Sunday, do nothing. Nope. 11:59, it was like, my bag was packed, the stuff was by the door, and I'd be like, oh, you folded my laundry for me. And it was like, he, 12 o'clock on the dot, like, I need you to go.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:27Sabrina Zohar?

  And at first, I could have totally taken that personally. And the other first couple of times, you're like, I kinda feel like a brothel. Like, this is a little weird, like, is it time up? But then, like you said, I was just like, okay. And I let him have the space. And then inevitably, I think after like another couple of months, when it was time to, hey, I want you to be my girlfriend, I brought it up and I said, listen, you want me all of these things, but yet you push me away when I try to get close to you. And that was the conversation of, you're right, yeah, okay. And so then 12 o'clock turned into 3 o'clock. And then at 3 o'clock, it was time to go home. And then 3 o'clock turned into 6, and then it turned into the next day, and then it turned into three days together. Because to your point, anytime he said, like, babe, I need the space, or like, I need to be alone, you got it. I don't need to argue with you. The issue that I have with anybody, I don't care what your attachment style is, if you don't communicate, like, hey, I need a day.

• 42:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? I was curious, like, when you would need the space, would you communicate, like, I just need 24 hours alone? Because I get that a lot. Well, people write in and say, like, the guy said, like, he just needs a break, and it's been like two weeks. You're like, it's two weeks and this person needs a break already? And you haven't heard from him in four days?

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not a break, that's a breakup.

• 42:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. It's like, that's that.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Because I was like, to me, any more than 24 hours, you're like, all right, come on, get a fucking pair, let's talk.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:34Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I would always communicate that.

• 42:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  And it was fine. I mean, it was, even still, to this day, I mean, there are days where I'm like, you know, I just kinda wanna like, play video games and watch football, like, I don't really wanna talk to you. You know, I don't put it in those terms, but like, she understands that it's not personal and it's, you know, it's whatever. So it's, I mean, I'm a huge proponent in general of just uncomfortable hon- like, when in doubt, uncomfortable honesty, all the time, for everything. And preferably, if possible, try not to, like, try not to ever attach judgment or blame to any of the honesty. I mean, back when I was a nomad, one of the things I learned pretty quickly is, when I went to a country and I'd meet a girl, I learned to just tell her immediately.

• 43:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  This is the deal. I'm here for six weeks. I'm probably never gonna come back. If that's a deal breaker for you, I totally get it. But if you want to have fun for six weeks, let's do it.

• 43:33Sabrina Zohar?

  There we are.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  And sure enough, about 50% of the women were like, yeah, I'm not on board with that. And I was like, cool, great meeting you, right? And it like, ultimately, it saved me so much pain and heartache and fights and arguments and drama. Saved her so many, so much wasted time.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Like, just be honest. Just say what you need and say it in a way that like, you're not judging or blaming the other person. And like, that's like the 20 that solves 80% of the issues.

• 44:00Sabrina Zohar?

  And to your point, thank you for saying that because what you exemplify is that like, being avoidant, right? It's not an excuse for bad behavior. You can't, it's not an excuse to be like, well, they just don't communicate. It's like, again, that's not somebody who has avoidant attachment style. Because notice how you would want to leap when it would get intimacy was getting too close. Like, there was a trigger. It wasn't just, you know, I've had people write in where they're like, "I asked for a hug and he called me clingy and told me that like, I'm too needy." And it's like, that's not anxious.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  That's an asshole.

• 44:25Sabrina Zohar?

  That's an asshole.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  That's an asshole.

• 44:26Sabrina Zohar?

  That's just a dick. And it's like, we need to, I think also, that's why I'm glad we're having this conversation. Because avoidant attachment is when you're triggered, right? Like, it's not just out of nowhere being like, "Well, I don't want to talk to you right now." And you're like, "What?"

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:37Sabrina Zohar?

  But I just asked you what table you want to sit at. So, okay. Lightning round. Welcome to speed dating.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  All right.

• 44:43Sabrina Zohar?

  You are kicking this off, by the way.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Because normally, I just ask questions along and I'm like, "No, we're gonna go on a speed date." Okay, so I'm gonna ask you, first thoughts, I'm curious. And these were, these were audience write-ins. So, these are people that really wanted your thoughts on this. About how to be okay being the single friend. "All else in my life is great, but being single just seems to hurt. How do you handle being the only single person, especially like friends and family? Everybody is coupled up."

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Hmm, I mean, I would ask, why do you feel judged? Like, why do you feel like you're being measured by that metric? It's funny because I, I, again, as an avoidant, I never understood this. Because I always liked being, being single and by myself. But I, I've never understood, like, the, and again, I, I think there's a lot more cultural pressure on women to measure yourself by your relationship status.

• 45:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  To measure your self-worth by your relationship status. I think there's a lot of cultural pressure for men to measure their self-worth by their sexual experience and women to measure their self-worth by their romantic situation. And I think both are stupid. Like, I don't, neither one makes sense to me, right? So, and I think both are unhealthy in their own way. So, if you're happy...

• 45:54Speaker 01

  I mean, the best way to find a good person is to be happy by yourself. So it's like, just work on being happy by yourself.

• 46:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Spoiler alert to anybody who's listening, I was her. I was the one that everybody else was coupled. And I was always the single one at the parties. And I was always the single one going. My sister had been married since she was 19. Like she met her husband, they'd been together for 20 years. Everybody else, I was always a single friend. Yes, was it shitty, was it sad? Yeah, I have a partner now and I get to bring him along. It's not like all of a sudden you're like, oh my god.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Oh my god, my life is perfect.

• 46:26Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like, don't get me wrong, I love it. You're still battling your own shit. You're just now not going alone to a party. You just have a partner that you're going to a party with.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Well, and guess what? Bringing your partner to a party introduces its own problems and frustrations.

• 46:39Sabrina Zohar?

  It sure fucking does.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  So you're kind of just trading one problem for another one. That's one way to look at it.

• 46:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so how do I remember what I truly want and love when work or love sucks? I think we just have a lot of people like loneliness was the number one thing that people wrote in of like, how do I get past this? I feel so lonely. And I wanted to ask your thoughts on that because we've all been there.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:00Sabrina Zohar?

  You know, when everything feels, everything feels like it's shit.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:04Sabrina Zohar?

  How do you hold on?

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. What was this specific question?

• 47:07Sabrina Zohar?

  How do I remember what I truly want and love when work, like when everything sucks, pretty much?

• 47:11Speaker 01

  I think there's a lot of value in thinking back to the things that you loved when you were young, when you were a kid or a teenager, things that like, if you think back to your childhood, like what were the things that you would just do for hours? Not because anybody told you to do it, not because it was like for a school project or there was any sort of like validation or any, like what did you just get lost in as a child? And try to remember that and maybe go back and revisit that. I think generally what happens, and this is particularly true, I think, I think codependent people are more prone to this, is that we get, there's so much social pressure and exposure to different social incentives, to be a certain person or to achieve a certain thing or to impress certain people.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  We get so wrapped up in those things and we do them for such a long time that we actually forget who we are ourselves, that like what we actually like when nobody else is around. And oftentimes, like I run into people who have like literally gone decades without actually doing something for themselves. And so it for somebody like that, it's it's it is a very difficult challenge to get back and find that. And I think the step one is to perhaps cut off some of that social exposure and maybe not expose yourself to so much stimulation or validation. And then step two is just like really try to remember who you were when you were young and experiment with some things.

• 48:36Sabrina Zohar?

  I'll tell you this, you think all this pink is an accident? No. This is, as you're saying that, I was like, oh, yeah, you mean all that? Because that's how I found myself was like, what did I love that people made fun of me for when I was a kid? What did I have to hide as myself? Right? Like my siblings all made fun of me being like, you, you're preppy and you look all this pink and you know, they're all like grungy kids and everybody wore black. And then there was me and I was like color and bright. Yeah, I hid that part of myself for a while. And it's like, let your freak flag fry, fly. When you're an adult and I can buy all this shit. Okay. Another couple. Okay. How this, I think, would, I think you will be able to answer this. How to stop negative self-talk when it's become a habit? Mm hmm. Those loops are fucking gnarly.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think this is what I've personally found. I think, you know, mileage may vary for different people, but I think for negative self-talk, journaling is, is anytime I think you need to challenge your basic assumptions or like preconceived notions, I find journaling to be the best tool to do that. Because what you can do is you can like write out your assumption and then you can go back and be like, okay, in what ways could this be wrong? What would it mean if this was wrong? What am I missing here? What would, what would have to be true for the opposite, you know, to be the case? And you can, you can do all those mental exercises and write them out and see what that looks like. And what I personally find is that

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Often the act of doing that, of writing it out, you start to realize how just absurd and ridiculous it is. And so then the next time those thoughts come up, you're like, oh, it's these thoughts again. Why are these thoughts here? Right? You gain a little bit of separation from them. And it's until you have that separation from them, that you're not just buying into them every time they pop up, you're not really going to be able to eliminate them.

• 50:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Totally. For me, it was hard. Journaling, love it because that activates a different part of the brain. If I'm thinking it, I'm going into a thought. But if I'm writing it, you're like, oh, I'm putting pencil to pen or pencil to paper, whatever the fuck it is. But also, even just acknowledging, like, yeah, I'm having a negative thought right now.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the other thing, too. I mean, meditation's really good for this, is like developing the ability to observe thoughts without necessarily believing them.

• 50:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  I mean, spoiler alert, like, half the shit you think is just nonsense, right? And so it's...

• 50:54Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm gonna go 90% for me, but yeah.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's... A lot of thoughts arise in your brain that are completely irrational and untrue and ridiculous. So I personally found meditation very useful for like developing the ability to like spot those thoughts as they go by and be like, oh, look, it's that nonsense negative thought again.

• 51:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Like a cloud.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you let it go.

• 51:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, last question. This is a therapist who was a fan of yours and she wrote in. And she said, a lot of people, she said, I've been talking about this a lot with my clients and a lot of people confuse thriving as life is great, there are no problems. How can the two work in tandem? And she really wanted your thoughts on this of like, how can we bridge the gap? Because it's true. I think we see it as like, oh, it's either there's no issues or life sucks and you're like, there's a Venn diagram.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. In The Subtle Art, I write something like, improving your life isn't about getting rid of your problems. Improving your life is about replacing problems you don't like having with problems you do like having, right? An easy example, right, is like, I don't know what you did. Oh, you did fashion before this, right? I'm assuming this is an upgrade.

• 51:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So having a podcast, plenty of fucking problems, plenty of stress, plenty of anxiety, plenty of issues to sort through and deal with, right? But you would much rather have those stresses, anxieties and problems than the previous stresses, anxieties and problems. So you haven't actually gotten rid of your stress and anxiety and problems. You've just found better ones. Right? And that like, that is essentially what self-improvement is, is you take, you take shitty problems that you don't enjoy having and you replace them with problems you're happy to have and that you actually thrive and enjoy having. Another thing that I, I've often like asked people at my events is, uh, what sort of masochist are you? Like, what sort of pain do you like secretly enjoy that you're like, yeah?

• 52:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, fuck me up.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, hurt me daddy. Yeah.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  And like for me, it took me a long time to realize, but um, you know, most, well, you're writing a book right now, right? And it's like fucking excruciating. I, I have like, there's kind of a sick pleasure that like I get with, with just sitting there and rewriting a paragraph like eight different times. I'm like, like, yeah, this is so horrible, but I, I kinda like it. I kinda like.

• 53:04Sabrina Zohar?

  That's me podcasting.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Spake me harder.

• 53:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. Yeah. Here I'm like, I'm so anxious. And I'm like, ooh, this is hot. Let's go.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  And, and what people need to understand too, and this is a real, real danger in the realm of relationships, because I think people tend to idealize relationships more than other, most other things in life. Like, people tend to ideal, they're like, if I could just meet the right person and have the right relationship and find the one, everything's gonna be great. And that's not the case. It's, it's, when meeting the right person and finding the quote unquote one, it's basically finding somebody that you fight very productively with. Like, you still fight, you still like, you know, they still hog the covers and, and they still fart more often than you'd like them to. And, and they still like have these weird idiosyncrasies that drive you crazy. And, and you still

• 53:52Speaker 01

  have dumb arguments about who takes out the trash and the right way to load a dishwasher. And, but you just fight productively and, and you like, and it just, it's not as hard as it is with other people. And I, I've found that that, that is actually what makes a relationship, the right relationship.

• 54:10Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like having a car. It's like if you get the older one that's out of warranty, you're like, fuck, there's a, it's above my pay grade. But if you get a car and you're like, there's issues, but I can, I can manage them. It's within my window of tolerance. It's like, okay.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:20Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that, Mark. What a fucking awesome conversation. Thank you for bestowing so much wisdom.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 54:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Where can people find you?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Uh, Mark Manson on pretty much every social platform, markmanson.net. The books are everywhere.

• 54:33Sabrina Zohar?

  We'll link it in the show notes, too.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's it. I mean, yeah, just read my shit.

• 54:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, perfect. And listen to your podcast, because I'll be on it, too.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Listen to the podcast. Podcast's called The Solid Art, not giving a fuck podcast. And you can probably get in on this platform.

• 54:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, sweet. Thanks, Mark.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Cool. Thank you.