Protecting Ourselves From Predators w/ Chris Hansen

How do you distinguish between good people in your life and predatory or bad people? I’m talking about in every area of your life. This week’s guest, Chris Hansen, strikes an incredibly emotional chord with me. You may or may not know that right after I got out of college, the first place I worked at was in a group home for abused and neglected boys. The time I spent with those boys had a PROFOUND effect on me, and as a result, I’m FIERCELY PROTECTIVE when it comes to SAFEGUARDING CHILDREN against all kinds of hurtful behaviors they may encounter. Chris is an eight-time EMMY AWARD-WINNING veteran investigative reporter, best known for his Dateline NBC segments, TO CATCH A PREDATOR. He has also hosted several other criminal investigations shows and currently produces a podcast and content on a YouTube channel that draws huge audiences each week. Sexual abuse of minors is particularly evil, and it happens far too often. That’s why it’s essential to listen to what Chris has to say. In fact, I believe Chris is the single MOST QUALIFIED PERSON there is to speak about dealing with sexual predators and steps you can take to PROTECT yourself and your children from these types of people. In addition to talking about his work on To Catch a Predator, Chris and I spend a lot of time on PRACTICAL AND VALUABLE INFORMATION you need to know about different types of predators. We get into how to spot an online predator, whether you’re a parent, a teen, or a young single adult engaging in chat rooms and DATING apps. How about in business? How do you know if someone’s got your best interest in mind or if they are setting you up for some predatory behavior to take advantage of you? Chris also goes into detail about what GROOMING is and how widespread it is in the online world. We cover the first steps a predator will take, recognizing this behavior and stopping it before it leads to other dangerous predatory practices. REMEMBER THIS. PREDATORS ALWAYS PURSUE THE MOST VULNERABLE TARGETS. As Chris explains, you must PROTECT your children and others by having AGE-APPROPRIATE DISCUSSIONS, DRAWING BOUNDARIES, and CREATING SAFER MEET-UPS especially when using dating apps. Online grooming extends to financial predators as well. Chris and I have both seen it many times. Stealing and bleeding money from vulnerable people online is a lot more prevalent than you might think, especially for older people. This isn’t always an easy subject to talk about, but through his work, Chris Hansen continues to RAISE AWARENESS and keep it in the public’s eye. It’s IMPORTANT to listen this week and hear what Chris has to say. 👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈 → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ← ▶︎ INSTAGRAM ▶︎ FACEBOOK ▶︎ LINKEDIN ▶︎ TWITTER ▶︎ WEBSITE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ed Mylett?

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• 0:45Ed Mylett?

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• 1:01Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company, for me, of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:18Ed Mylett?

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:25Ed Mylett?

  I'm not the first nanny.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  This is The Ed Mileage Show.

• 1:42Ed Mylett?

  All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. My guest today is an eight-time Emmy Award winner. And you probably best know him from Dateline or Catch a Predator, but he's the first guest I've ever had on my show, where I'm glad to be introducing him to all of you and not having him introducing himself to me. Because the last thing you want to hear if you're in someone's living room or kitchen is, "Hi, I'm Chris Hansen. Grab a seat." So I'm super glad that I'm the one introducing him. And he's got a podcast out right now called Predators I've Caught. I'm super fascinated by this man. It's kind of a giveaway as to who it is. So Chris Hansen, welcome to the show.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  And thank you very much. I suppose you're gonna tell me to have a seat for this, right?

• 2:20Ed Mylett?

  That's exactly what we're doing. And I'm fascinated by you, Chris. The work you've done, your life. You've really had a unique seat, so to speak, and a viewpoint in the world that's really unique only to you. I'm curious to begin with, because now everybody, they're recognizing that voice, and if they're watching this, they recognize the face. And I'm curious, when you started to do Catch a Predator and the Dateline work, what preparation did you have? In other words, were you qualified? Did you feel qualified to sit behind the scenes and then walk into someone's living room and have that conversation with somebody? Did you have preparation to do that?

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Well, nothing from a therapist's standpoint or any experience in law enforcement, except I had to, you know, have done investigative reporting for, you know, several years running up to that, both at NBC and in local news beforehand, but nothing can prepare you for that very first To Catch a Predator episode. You know, when I pitched it to Dateline, it was never meant to be a continuing series. It was meant to be, you know, a one-off story for Dateline, exposing men who go online to sexually assault children. And we had become aware of Preventive Justice, the online watchdog group, which at that time would put decoys into chat rooms.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  And if they got hit on and there was a solicitation by an adult, they would merely post that person's identity on their website and occasionally cooperate with law enforcement to help in a prosecution. I thought, once I became aware of Preventive Justice, that it could be very compelling if we could combine and collaborate with their ability to, you know, be decoys online with our ability to wire a house with hidden cameras and microphones. I thought it would be eye-opening. And I did doubt, though, whether or not we'd see people show up. I mean, I was driving out to the first sting location, and I thought, man, what if I just wasted tens of thousands of dollars of the network's money? And with that, my producer called and said, hey, where the hell are you? We've got two guys scheduled to show up in

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Forty-five minutes and in that first investigation in Bethpage, Long Island, Ed, we had seventeen guys surface over two and a half days, including a New York City firefighter. So, you know, was that a one-time-only event? I didn't know at the time, but your heart's in your throat because you really don't know what you're dealing with. We had security, but we weren't working with law enforcement in that particular investigation. Law enforcement came in later and made a prosecution or two in that case. But, you know, we were testing this out and, you know, kind of learning as we went along. But no, there was no preparation for it, other than that, you know, I had done, obviously, a number of spontaneous interviews in the past. I had the transcripts.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  I prepared as best as I could, but, you know, it's live. You are going inside the commission of a felony and showing people that crime as it is actually committed. And it was eye-opening, even for me, who had been, you know, at that point around the world doing investigative reporting.

• 5:26Ed Mylett?

  Yeah. The reason I ask is that, you know, people listen to this show, they're stepping into different spaces in their life, and I think everyone's like, you have to be completely prepared. There's really no such thing. And you step into this space that really no one had stepped into before. You sort of created a space, the way that you did it, and it was riveting. I mean, there's not a person who listens to my show or is watching this who's not familiar with you. It became that big of a deal. And I used to watch it and think, I don't know if it ever occurred to you, like, well, that guy could be walking by me in the grocery store.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  You would never know.

• 5:57Ed Mylett?

  And that's why I wanted to have you on today, everybody. What today's show is really going to be about is, obviously, some insights into that show and the, but also lots of other things about predatory behavior. I want to talk about protecting our children, protecting yourselves if you're single and you're dating, the social media piece of it. But then, even offside all of that, how do you know if someone's got ill will towards you? Is there a profile, someone's predatory with you financially, just antagonistic towards you? So we're going to go all down that road. If you're wondering why Chris is sitting in that seat today, because I think he's the most qualified person on the planet to do it. I'm curious first, Chris, when you meet these guys, you walk in there, did anything strike you about their humanity? In other words, were they otherwise, on the surface, normal people?

• 6:40Ed Mylett?

  Or as you would sit there for twenty, thirty, forty minutes, eventually, were there things about them, other than, obviously, the underlying, perverted, predatory behavior that would give you a clue into who they were? It was different?

• 6:54Speaker 02

  You know, they come from different categories, Ed. So you may have a guy who walks in who's a doctor, or a teacher, or somebody even in law enforcement. In a recent investigation, just a matter of months ago in Michigan, we had a prison guard, a Michigan State Corrections Officer, walk in to try to have sex with a 14-year-old girl. You know, we're doing these investigations again now, 17 years later, and guys are still showing up. So they come from different categories. You see the legit guy, you could be standing next to you at the dry cleaners on a Saturday morning, or standing next to you on public transportation here in the New York subway. And then there are, obviously, guys who, you know, could have the word predator tattooed across the forehead. They look janky, you

• 7:39Speaker 02

  know, they look like a guy who's looking for trouble. So it's a combination of things, but I think if you're looking for, you know, that common denominator, it's really, really hard to tell on the surface. If you go beneath the surface, you know, and you see things, there are definitely warning signs. But, you know, when you and I were kids, our parents said, "Don't talk to strangers." And that was good advice then, and good advice today. But the problem with online grooming, and the internet has changed all of this in so many ways, is that the person who's a stranger on a Wednesday is so adept at gaining the confidence of a child, or anyone, really, by the end of the week, that you think you know this person over the weekend.

• 8:24Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, you use the word grooming, and it's fascinating that you did. A few weeks ago, I had Sarah Klein on. Sarah was one of the original, you know, she was one of the original young ladies who came forward that was a victim of Larry Nassar.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:37Ed Mylett?

  For USA Gymnastics. And she used that word grooming. Now, he could groom them because he was in there doing physicals with them. But how does that work? I've got a child, let's give some advice to parents now. You've got a child, they're on Instagram, let's say. How does the grooming work and what should we be looking out for? Should parents be monitoring the direct messages of their children? Do you advise that? What would you advise if you have a child?

• 8:59Speaker 02

  I think it's, uh, it's not a bad idea, depending on what you see and how old the child is. You know, you need to start with an age appropriate discussion. And I think sometimes it's as simple as, look, I'm going to trust you to have communication on the internet, to have an Instagram or Facebook or a TikTok or, you know, Snapchat. But you need to know that there are adults out there who would like to trick you for a lot of different reasons. And kids don't like to be tricked. So I think it starts there. And if you can get that point across to a child, then you can start to prepare them. There is no real effective demand reduction for this crime, right? It's not a very sexy part of therapy or psychiatry or medicine.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  Law enforcement does the best it can to bust and incarcerate, punish, monitor these people. But at the end of the day, it's so prolific, this crime, that your best defense is education and awareness. And that starts with an age appropriate discussion with your kids.

• 10:01Ed Mylett?

  How prolific is it? I just want, I mean, I don't personally, if I know anybody.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  That's a great, that's a great question. Yeah, I mean, you, we used to say, you know, 15, 16 years ago, when I started talking about this, there was a number that we used to quote, and it was at any given time, 50,000 predators are online. Well, you know, it's a, it's a hard number to come up with. And we were challenged on that and we ourselves went back to where was, where did this come from? And it came from a speech from an attorney general and got it from the Attorney General of the United States that got it from one of our stories where we interviewed somebody who was a former FBI agent. And I asked the question, would it surprise you if that were true? He said, no, it could be even higher. So there's no way of really knowing is the honest answer, right?

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Common sense would tell you that there are a lot of predators online because we've caught a lot of predators online, not just sexual predators looking to assault children, but financial predators, all kinds of confidence schemes and things that go on every day. So it's ubiquitous and we really don't know is the honest answer.

• 11:09Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, that's the thing and I, we're gonna go there in a minute, but I'm just, there's things I always wanted to ask you and this is gonna seem, I might even take some flak for asking you this question, but the first thing is that because of the way movies are made, you know, usually the bad guy in a movie is just a bad guy in every area, right? Like, but the truth is, many of these people have otherwise other redemptive qualities.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 11:33Ed Mylett?

  And I think that's part of it, like, well, he's a great soccer coach or an amazing, she's an amazing businesswoman, or why she, he's so good with his own children. And so then we automatically categorize that person as they're, there's no way they could be one of those because they have other redemptive qualities. These aren't just all bad people. This is some behavior they have that's perverted or a character flaw. They may have other redemptive qualities and that, that should cause us not to discount the possibility they could be doing harm, correct?

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Cause that's absolutely right, Ed. And, and we see this in the predator investigations. We see people who function as an oncologist, for example, at a major biotech firm on the cutting edge of curing cancer. Yet here's a guy who is, you know, going online by tall, dreamy doc, lying about his age, trying to meet up with a 13 year old girl in Petaluma, California for sex after a sexually charged conversation. Here's a guy who's got daughters, uh, who's married, who has a big job, uh, an incredible education, doing some good for society, but yet in this dark corner of his life. Was out trolling for for kids and and I think you know, people ask, what's the profile?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Well, there's in terms of my experience, and I'm not a therapist and I am not qualified to make this judgment, but in my experience, these predators break down into three different categories. There's the heavy hitter pedophile predator child molester who'd be doing this with or without the internet, right? The bad little league coach, the bad scoutmaster, the guy who's hanging out at the playground or the food court at the mall. They're going to do this. They're hardwired, whether it's because of something in their mind or because of a childhood experience, they're going to go after children. Then there's a younger group, right? Nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two, socially inept, insecure, thinking

• 13:28Speaker 02

  that, well, this might be an opportunity to finally have a romantic experience. And maybe the best way to do this is to choose somebody who's emotionally at the same level I am, who happens to be thirteen or fourteen. And if it works out in a couple of years, it's not that big of an age difference. You know, they'll be sixteen soon. They look at it as a Romeo and Juliet situation. That's a guy who can be put on probation, punished, warned, and probably never offend. Then we have this much more difficult situation in the middle. I think there's a whole category of guys who may have an attraction to younger boys or girls in their teens. And their genes. In their teen. Yeah, these guys are, you know, any age, any adult age, but they

• 14:12Speaker 02

  have an attraction to younger boys and younger kids, boys and girls. And they wouldn't act upon this without the internet, without the access to the chat rooms, to pictures. It's addictive. It's twenty-four seven. And it's anonymous. And they find themselves seeing things online to somebody who they think is a is a vulnerable thirteen, fourteen, fifteen-year-old boy or girl that they wouldn't say in person. And then at some point, they blur this line between fantasy and reality. And they may know better. They may suspect it's a Chris Hansen sting operation, or an FBI sting operation, or any local police sheriff's department. But they do it anyway because they get so caught up in this, fulfilling

• 14:57Speaker 02

  this fantasy that they blur the line. And the next thing you know, they come knocking at our door. And that's the most difficult part, the most difficult profile to identify. To treat, to punish, and to fix in our society, I think.

• 15:12Ed Mylett?

  Well, now, that is fascinating because that sort of helps me while really processing the way you described that. Because that behavior manifests itself online now. It has created a space online where this transcends sexual predators.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:29Ed Mylett?

  For example, in my case, people will regularly make fake accounts of Ed Mylett, make them look really good, and then solicit people to buy some cryptocurrency or a five. You send me fifty dollars. And these are otherwise people that I, I almost think, because I've actually encountered a few of these people in my last six years online, that I think they do blur this line where they forget what they're doing is illegal and hurting another human being. They almost get caught up in the process of it. And this is so prevalent online. Is there anything, do you agree with that, number one? And secondly, is there anything someone listening to this can do to protect themselves from any type of predatory behavior online?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Well, I, number one, yes, you are right. I think that's an accurate profile of what happens online. And it is this constant blur of fantasy and reality. And because it is such a vast space of potential money-making, that it creates opportunity for those who are trying to scam folks. And we've seen it, especially in a difficult economy. I mean, the predator always goes for the most vulnerable, right? And not always do they start out to take advantage. But once they get a sense of success or how easy it is,

• 16:55Speaker 02

  and it becomes financially lucrative or emotionally lucrative, they keep going until they get caught. And I suppose it's just the ubiquitous nature of the internet in some respects. But also, if you provide an opportunity for bad people to, to execute this sort of thing, they will do it. I mean, we've seen it in our various investigations of online predators, not the traditional kind in the, in the Hanson versus Predator, To Catch a Predator, but the Onision and Real Life series that we have now on Discovery Plus. Here's a guy who's a YouTube sensation. He had a big following, was making millions of dollars.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  And ultimately crossed the line and started abusing and preying upon his young female followers. And it started a whole investigation, both civil and criminal. And, you know, we did a series of exposure there. And the women, the young women, who were the targets here, were vulnerable for a lot of different reasons, some because of their emotions, some because of their, their talent, their creativity, they felt a kindred spirit with this fellow, who was also somewhat creative, talented. But also because they came from a home that, there was freedom enough for them to be approached and to be emotionally taken advantage of by a guy like this.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  And, you know, you see it among the most wealthy people, the Peter Nygaard investigation, you know. There you have a guy who was not only a predator, but was a money predator. And he could buy this sense of impunity that he had for forty-five, fifty years. He got away with thousands of sexual assaults. And finally, because of dedicated investigators and civil lawsuit, you know, that went on between Nygaard and a neighbor who did the right thing, good reporting by us and New York Times and Canadian Broadcasting Network, he finally got exposed. You know, but who knows without this? I mean, Epstein, without the Miami Herald staying on top of this story, day after day

• 19:04Speaker 02

  after day, Epstein probably gets away with it. And the US Attorney in New York at the time essentially said that. I mean, it's, it's, these guys, they have money, they have connections, they have power, and they can get away with it. And so this triples down as an attitude on the internet.

• 19:19Ed Mylett?

  Aren't they protected, some of them by the bigger apparatus as well? I think I was reading that you wanted to do something on Epstein, or had an inclination about him, or some, something came up and then it didn't happen, is that right?

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Well, it was, you know, that's the lesson of good dogged reporting. And that's what Julie K. Brown did at the Miami Herald. We had an opportunity, I had an opportunity to look into some of this stuff. And quite honestly, I tried to fashion a sting operation in New York.

• 19:45Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  The levels of security were so guarded that we weren't able to, you know, penetrate it. And so I got busy with other stories, other topics, other things. And it was the Miami Herald, they kept digging away day after day after day after day, and finally got the confidence in these survivors, some of them, to identify themselves and come forward and become very effective witnesses to prosecute this case.

• 20:10Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  You know, so do I regret not pursuing it more aggressively? Yeah, of course. But I'm also glad that Julie K. Brown of the Miami Herald did. And, and, you know, we've done stories around it. I continue to work on that, that case a bit here and there, and I think we'll come up with something soon. But, you know, it's, it's just a lesson of reporting. You have to, sometimes it's, it's old fashioned legwork and just staying on it and not going for the grand slam hidden camera investigation that, that wins the day. And that's what won it for the Miami Herald.

• 20:47Ed Mylett?

  Reporting aside, as a human being, what has this work done to you? What is it, how's it made you look at human beings differently overall, if it has? I mean, you've seen a side of humanity up close, in your face, multiple times, really a seat that, aside from maybe a few people in law enforcement have ever seen. Has it changed the way you look at someone in the grocery store? Has it changed the way you look at the goodness of humans in general? I'm curious as what it's done to you as a man.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Well, it's, it's a, it's a great question, and I think there was a time in between that it gave me kind of a dark look at society in general. And you can let yourself get caught up in that if you're not careful. And I think with time passing and, and perspective, you know, I've developed a much broader, more balanced view of the world. I think that comes with, you know, doing something for 40 years and, and reaching a certain age in life. And I think kids who are now adults, to whom are in this business, you, you, you get a perspective that you didn't have at 40, that you now have at 62. And so it allows you not to be...

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Too hung up, but to have, you know, a worldview of things and to understand how my work can fit into that worldview and improve the, you know, the situation and contribute to the education of people. And, you know, to get into the minds of a predator or criminal and to understand a little bit how that works and to hear the voice of the victim, you can create a, hopefully, an environment where fewer people become victims. And that's kind of what all my work and my reporting is about. You know, is creating that awareness because at the end of the day, the cops can't arrest them all, you know, we can't catch them all. So if you create this body of work that makes people pay attention just a little closer, you can prevent people from becoming victims. You know, it's like

• 22:42Speaker 02

  in these interviews with these guys, you know, whether you're caught, anybody can jump out of the back room or from behind the bushes and create 10 seconds of dramatic video. My job is to get inside their heads, you know, to get them to talk to me. I'm not out there to beat them up. Of course, as a human being, you get, you know, agitated and angry that somebody would do this to a child, but my job is to understand it and to get them to spill their guts. Yeah. On camera so people can see it. You know, and that's been one of the interesting things about going back and doing the podcast now, which is I immerse myself in each one of these cases. And at the time, you know, I've got the transcripts and, you know, I've got some background and I'm

• 23:23Speaker 02

  able to think on my feet and deal with these interviews. And unquestionably, even in this dark subject matter, there are, you know, borderline humorous things that happen. And so you have to live in those moments too, because, you know, people see it for what it is. But you gotta, you know, get the truth out of these guys. And, and that's, that's the job of it all. And, and I think, you know, especially looking back, as I was saying with the, with the podcast, I mean, you, you now see the bigger picture, right? Because it may have been a time when two guys were coming in within 10 minutes of each other. Now I can sit back and watch the videos again, look at all the transcripts, see what's happened to the guy since then, know more about

• 24:05Speaker 02

  his background than I did when he first walked in. And we usually had a pretty good background sheet on the guys. And it gives this fuller picture. And I think in these times, when kids are spending more. Of their days on the internet, especially during the pandemic. And when you, when you think of how many more social media platforms are out there now, it's more important than ever to have this kind of discussion, this kind of education. Remember, when we did the first To Catch a Predator seventeen years ago, we merely had decoys in chat rooms and AOL and Yahoo. That was it. That's all we used. Now, take a look at, look at the landscape around you today.

• 24:39Ed Mylett?

  My gosh.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Look at what you and I use as men of a certain age in the media to promote our work, to have discussions with followers and viewers and fans. It, it, it's exploded. I mean, every day, there's a new social media platform that I don't know about. Where, you know, potentially predators can approach children online.

• 25:00Ed Mylett?

  I was just thinking about TikTok specifically. Younger profile, I got some data this week that says Instagram's got about a billion three users. I mean, imagine that number, a billion three. But that TikTok is now at a billion and will likely surpass them in the next six months. So if there are billions of people on these two platforms, and again, they're overlapping users clearly. But that means there are millions of some form of predators online, whether that's a financial predator, a sexual predator, somebody that, it's not fifty thousand anymore. Somebody that even if you're a, a woman and you're on a dating app, just a guy who's got no intention but to be physical with you, lie to you about his intentions, to me, that's a bit of a predator.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  It's, it's absolutely a predator. And let me take it one step further. We did a story a week or so ago on YouTube channel, Have a Seat with Chris Hansen, on parents who are exploiting their children online. And, you know, you, you look at these family vloggers, you know, these people who are doing stories about, you know, their families and adopting kids and rehoming the kids because they've got behavioral issues. We did a story on, on a, the case of Danielle Cohen, who's fifteen years old. The mother of her is a gen, um, it, it, our shadow is essentially pimping this girl out online, making millions and millions of dollars. A young girl who's been doing this since, you know.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Eleven, twelve, thirteen, all her relationships, her pregnancy, abortion, you know, borderline child porn, and all of this makes money for the mother on their YouTube channel. Yet, when we do a story on it, even though we blur any questionable video, we're not monetized because of sensitive social content. It's fine. I don't do YouTube to make money.

• 26:56Ed Mylett?

  I know exactly what you mean.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  I incubate, you know, stories for television. But so, yet, they're out there doing the exploitation and making the money.

• 27:05Ed Mylett?

  That's crazy.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  So you make sense of that.

• 27:07Ed Mylett?

  That is nonsensical, and I relate very deeply to what you're saying there. I'm curious, a lot of people are dating. The main place people meet now is online. So it's, it used to be at a bar, a nightclub, or church, or

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Old fashioned way.

• 27:22Ed Mylett?

  Right. It's, it's like, and I've had great dating experts on my show. And so, man or woman, so I'm meeting a guy who's in my DMs, right? He's in my DMs on Instagram, or I'm meeting a guy who's, I'm on one of these, I don't know the names of them anymore. I'm on Tinder, whatever it is. I don't know. Right? It tells you all the, I mean, how long have you been married? But, but you're on these apps. And so, you're gonna meet, you wanna meet people that way. What, there's gotta be some advice you'd give to somebody. Is it like, hey, meet in a public place, look for

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, all of it, all of that.

• 27:57Ed Mylett?

  You have to just be wary. I mean, obviously, if you're an adult and you're on one of

• 28:07Speaker 02

  the dating apps, a lot of people meet and have healthy relationships because of that. You know, Tinder and Grindr are set up for different, different, you know, sort of hookups. But, you know, the, the traditional dating apps result in healthy, wonderful, long-term relationships. But you just have to know that there are people who will try to exploit that and exploit your good nature. And so, yeah, all the common sense things apply, which is take your time, meet for coffee in a public space, don't put yourself in a situation where somebody can drop a roofie in your drink, make sure you've got your own way there, an own way home.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  And it's not a bad idea to make sure you tell a friend what you're up to. It's no different than selling a television on Craigslist or on Facebook. Meet in a public place, you know, and preferably next to a police station. I mean, don't set yourself up to become a victim. And it's a little, you know, trickier with adults who meet each other online. And I, I listen, I know people who met their spouses on traditional dating apps. It's, it's not unusual. So.

• 29:21Ed Mylett?

  I think it's funny that I named the hookup app.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  What?

• 29:25Ed Mylett?

  I don't know.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  What does that say about you, man?

• 29:27Ed Mylett?

  I know.

• 29:30Ed Mylett?

  I don't know. There are, there are profiles on there from time to time. Someone will screenshot and say, is this you? Yes, that's definitely my picture, but my name is not Joe Mendoza.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:41Ed Mylett?

  And I don't live in Sarasota, Florida. So even there's that sort of thing. You know, all the fraud online blows my mind. It just blows my mind.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Well, and we saw it, you know, years ago, we did a piece on, uh, you know, some of the, uh, financial scams online. And, and, you know, there's an intersection between the financial scams and the sweetheart swindle. You've got these people who think they've met somebody online who's cute and, you know, has a lovely picture in front of some flowers. And, and it's actually somebody in West Africa who's running a scam. And suddenly they're accepting packages and they're reshipping these things. And, and, you know, this is a single woman in Georgia who's got five kids and is alone and, and is vulnerable, you know? And, and likes the, the companionship online and will do this, thinking that she's getting involved in a business venture with somebody who might also be a romantic.

• 30:33Ed Mylett?

  What, what you're describing there, everybody, what Chris is describing, I know because I'm in the financial space. And so I, that is much more prevalent than you would think, what he just described. Of people that are a little bit more advanced in age, having what they think is a romantic encounter with someone who does not exist. That is in some other country who then that person slowly grooms them, to use Chris's term earlier, to the point where they just begin to believe them financially. And people have lost their entire life savings this way, slowly but surely. And you'd think there's just no way, it's nonsensical. This grooming, this connection, this blurring that he described, the predator uses, also happens to the prey. The blurring starts to happen to the person being preyed upon.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  That's actually right. And then, and then they don't want to believe. That it's really a scam because to accept that means they're not going to see this $250,000 that they invested with this person back. So the Stockholm's syndrome clicks in because they don't want to believe they've been the victim of a confidence scheme. And so then they become very difficult victims for law enforcement. They don't want to come forward. There's a sense of embarrassment and they're tricky cases to prosecute. We once at NBC, we convinced our bosses to give us a year and more producers than usually are given to a project to out the Nigerian scammers. And it was, it was a hell of an effort. I

• 32:00Speaker 02

  mean, I had three or four producers. And usually when you do a story, you have a producer and an associate producer. I had three or four producers rotating in and out constantly trying to get these guys to come out of the, out of the, you know, the back rooms and out of wherever to put together a stand operation where I could confront them. And we did it, but it was, it was, I'm telling you, we were at this for a good nine months to a year before we could really smoke these guys out. And we had a field day with them. I mean, it was a great, great story, but you know, it was expensive. It was aggressive. It was, you know, somewhat dangerous, I suppose. But we traveled, you know, throughout Europe and went to West Africa and you don't get a chance to do that very often. And because,

• 32:42Speaker 02

  you know, it was a great story. It became iconic, but it's one story that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and, you know, many months and, and, and a lot of manpower to do it. But that's how difficult it is. Now imagine, you know, a mid-sized police department.

• 32:57Ed Mylett?

  Yes.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  That's not going to happen.

• 32:59Ed Mylett?

  Not gonna happen.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Right? And that's why these guys get away with it. I mean, I'm convinced that there's a poster of me in virtually every internet cafe in Lagos, Nigeria and Benin, West Africa with, you know, saying, don't talk to anybody who looks and sounds like this. But

• 33:15Ed Mylett?

  That's true.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Because we didn't

• 33:17Ed Mylett?

  How do you think your work, Chris, just along those lines, how do you think your work has changed the way, if at all, the way the Predator operates? Has your work caused this sort of culture of predatory behavior to alter the way they operate, literally because of you and the sort of dynamic that was set up by the way you did the show?

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Well, I, I think, I, I would like to think that it's a deterrent, right? I mean, I honestly thought we do Three, maybe four predator investigations. And I honestly thought that we would not see guys show up, that we, you know, I'd be taking a nap on the kitchen counter like the Maytag repairman, nothing to do. And that's not the case. I mean, again, 17 years later, in Michigan, guys are showing up. Now, we've changed what we do. We had a COVID protocol. We did a lot of things differently. But there's still out there. And guys still walk in and say, oh,

• 34:17Speaker 02

  you're Chris Hansen. And guys still walk in and don't know who I am. And I don't know whether to be, you know, offended by that, or flattered. But it's, it's not a problem that's going away anytime soon. And people always ask why that is, you know, and I think, I think it's just the nature of the issue. And I think for some people, it's an illness. For some people, it's a weakness. For some people, it's just a, it's a, it's a predator mindset. But it also is not a practice of medicine. If you look at it as a psychiatric illness, for instance, and some of it is. If you go to medical school and you graduate,

• 34:59Speaker 02

  and you have the choice of becoming a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills, California, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, or Park Avenue, New York, and make millions of dollars, or what about this, I can study sexual predators and work for the US Marshals and spend my days in, in federal penitentiaries interviewing hardcore predators. What choice? Now, thank God, there are people who do that. You know, and I've interviewed them. And they're wonderful, smart, dedicated human beings who devoted their life to this particular practice of medicine. But you can understand why somebody wouldn't want to do that.

• 35:34Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, well, I also think part of it is the rush. I feel like sometimes people's lives are so monotonous and unexciting and they're not chasing a dream. Their idle time for human beings can be a really dangerous thing. And I just wonder, sometimes it's, I just, do you, yeah, I just wonder if sometimes it's just...

• 35:51Speaker 02

  I'm sure, and I can't empirically prove this, but I'm positive that there are cases where somebody said, "Let me just take a look at this channel. Let me just see what's there." There's a, you know, young guy or young gal. What happens if I did have a chat? What happens if I did propose this idea? And again, they're not talking face to face. So they, they, they get on this slippery slope where they start saying stuff they wouldn't say face to face. And the internet has changed our whole culture and the way humans communicate. I mean, you know, I tell the story to my kids. I said, "When I was in college, nobody had cell phones. Nobody even had pagers when I was in college. We had to leave notes

• 36:33Speaker 02

  on doors in dormitories. And then people had to write things down on little pink pieces of paper, yellow pieces of paper, and you'd have to read them. And then you'd have to go to Dooley's Bar. If you weren't there, then it must be at the alley eye or must be somewhere. You had to find somebody, you know, and we always found the other people. We always did. We always found who we were looking for. But nobody just, you know, texted each other and said, you know, "We're gonna do this. We're gonna do that, or here's where we're gonna be." Or, you know, kids use Tinder today just to figure out where the other kids are gonna be to either be there or avoid them. I mean, it's, it's a whole different world now.

• 37:10Ed Mylett?

  I have a big theory that attention is something that drives humans. And in an odd way, I think the predator and the prey share this need. In other words, the prey, this child or this person is just seeking some form of attention they're not getting somewhere else. Maybe they don't have a father in the home. Maybe there's, and I'm not trying to distill that in every...

• 37:27Speaker 02

  No, no, but I think, I think, again, it all goes back to a vulnerability.

• 37:31Ed Mylett?

  Yep.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  And I think a lot of predators have a, a deep sense of, of where that vulnerability is, and they can prey on it. I mean, if you look at all the, the victims, there's a vulnerability. That doesn't mean that it's okay to make them a victim. It just means that a predator can often sense that and move in. I mean, it's the old story, "Why do you rob the banks? It's where the money's at," you know? Criminals figure that out, you know?

• 38:00Ed Mylett?

  Did you ever find yourself, this is the hard question that I wanted to always ask you. I may even give a little flack for it. I was gonna ask it earlier, it's just coming out now. So, did you ever find yourself, when you're in that kitchen or that living room and this guy's jabbering on and on, and he seems remorseful, and he's teary eyed, and I'm a father, and I can't believe I did this, and I'm an idiot. And did you ever find yourself feeling, this is a tough question. Did you ever feel any empathy for the predator?

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, a couple of times, specifically. I remember one, and I had conversations about this with some other colleagues. There was a fellow who came into Georgia, a house sting operation we had set up there, and he was an Iraqi vet. And he came in, and I walked out, and I don't know that he had figured out it was me, or what was going on. He probably thought I was a cop. But he immediately got down on his knees and put his hands behind his back in the prisoner of war position, as if he had been caught by, you know, Iraqi forces. And he was compliant, and he answered all the questions, he was apologetic. He had, you know, reasoning for all this, he had PTSD.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  None of that, however, forgives the fact that he was very likely going to sexually assault a child and alter that child's life forever. Now, did I feel bad for the guy because he served our country? Because he was having issues, perhaps due to that? Yes. Does that make it okay? Is that, does that excuse what he was about to do? No, but it was a moment of emotional torture for me to, you know, figure out, okay, had this guy decided not to go online today, or had he decided to go... You know, get his tires rotated as opposed to show up here, you know, he wouldn't be facing

• 39:56Speaker 02

  this. And maybe he would have never acted on this impulse. I don't know, but you can't, you can ask yourself those questions and you can have these emotional and intellectual wrestling matches with yourself and that's healthy because it makes you, makes you think and it makes you better at what you do for a living, but you can't torture yourself forever over it. You know, ultimately you have to realize that this was what I chose to do. We did it with integrity and intelligence and some balance to it. And this was the product. You know, generally, generally speaking, I mean, look, we'll always take heat in certain

• 40:39Speaker 02

  corners in the journalistic community for being sensational or working too close with the police or whatever, but I, you know, look, I, I, you know, I, I long ago got over that criticism. I long ago realized that by following the path of doing this kind of reporting, I was going to eliminate some more traditional opportunities, right? And I have this conversation, my second son is a, is a reporter on television and I said, look, did this make perhaps 60 minutes off the, off the platter? Maybe, but this is what I chose to do. I'm comfortable with the legacy that I'm creating and I think as a whole, you know,

• 41:24Speaker 02

  I was more cutting edge than worried about being more traditional. And, and, and it's no use analyzing it to depth because I already did it, you know? That's right. I mean, I joke, I joke with people all the time, you know, my two oldest kids went to a, you know, a private school in Connecticut and having a father on television wasn't a big deal because they went to school with kids whose dads were captains of industry and sports and all kinds of things. And it wasn't until South Park did a Chris Hansen Catch a Predator parody that I was the coolest dad. Now you're a big deal. Yeah, I was on South Park, you know? So, but that, it is what it is. And I, I tell, you know, my sons, it's all the time.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  I said, look, you know, I'm not saying that you have to go do what I did or do it the way I did it, but you know. Realize that you're, you know, as you charge your path, there are consequences to it. And you have to be comfortable with those decisions, even though, you know, sometimes they're made for you.

• 42:25Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, but you know, because the truth, human, we've all make mistakes. I like you've made mistakes in your personal life. Everybody has those mistakes happen. But the truth is, it's very rare in, in your industry and your work, that the actual work, I mean, it's sincerely probably saved lives.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  I'd like to think so, you know?

• 42:45Ed Mylett?

  I mean, what if it saved one and we know it's more than that, right?

• 42:48Speaker 02

  And it's, then it's worth it. And, you know, and, and to me, again, it's, it's a dialogue and awareness that didn't exist before.

• 42:57Ed Mylett?

  That's right.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  And if part of that is due to a cartoon show, well, so be it. You know, at least it's an intelligent, biting, cutting edge, well-written cartoon.

• 43:07Ed Mylett?

  You, you, by the way, had the temperament to do this. There are other guys that are investigative reporters or journalists on television that their temperament could have changed the tone and the environment when that walkout happened. There's something to your presence. And by the way, this is just something for everybody to learn in communication, too. There was something to the way that your presence, your energy was brought into the room that created an environment that was dynamic between you and this predator that, and everyone should be conscious of their energy and how they walk into a space. You don't walk into every room the same way. You walked into that room that way. I'm curious, take us into it for a minute. What are you feeling when you're coming around that corner? And what are you feeling typically from the person who you lock eyes with? What is that?

• 43:52Ed Mylett?

  That has got it, that is a moment that 99.99999% of all human beings will never experience in their life, which you've experienced multiple times. Is it the same every time for you and the other person?

• 44:03Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's different every time. It's different every time because, you know.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  Each individuals, there are obviously, there are some similarities, right? Some guys are going to have the same excuse and you're prepared for it and you've thought about it since the last guy gave you that excuse and you have a really good comeback for that, right? Too bad for that guy because I'm really ready for him and I'll have his lunch. But generally, it's the rule that I have for every interview, which is to be a good listener and to not be afraid of dead air. You know, Mike Wallace was a great teacher of that in spontaneous controversial interview. And that is, you know, sometimes you gotta go for it and get it while you have the opportunity. But at the same time, if you've got that person in a controlled environment,

• 44:52Speaker 02

  there's nothing wrong with asking a simple question like, "Explain", and letting them hang there on the hook until they say something. And I can't tell you how many times I've been in a situation, especially in the predatory cases, where I thought it was over, I thought the guy was never going to give it up, and I kept at it, and kept at it, and kept at it, and finally said, you know, "Just explain to me what was going on in your mind." And finally, you see the switch go and the guy says, "Well, you know, it started here. I was this age and I kept getting older and the kids kept the same age or getting younger." And they give you some sense of what happened. Now, it might be all bull at the end of the day and a big excuse,

• 45:34Speaker 02

  but at least you have some sense of what this guy is about and how they got there, you know?

• 45:41Ed Mylett?

  Do you think that, a couple more things? I'm fascinated, but I mean, this is like, for me, there's a conversation many years in the making of wanting to ask these questions, I know it is for my audience too. Do you think that, forecast a little bit, you've been in this space a while. Is there a future that you see coming where predatory type people change their behavior? Is there another venue or forum other than just online?

• 46:07Ed Mylett?

  Is anything you see that we should be looking out for that's sort of the next level, right? As you've said, we didn't have text and phone back in the day. Now we've got Instagram and TikTok and dating apps. Is there anything on the horizon?

• 46:21Speaker 02

  I think, I think whatever the next thing is, people will try to exploit it, you know, whether it's, you know, another level of communication, you know, another level of internet connectivity. You know, we see it with the interactive video games, you know, that's another thing. People think, well, they could say playing a video game. Well, they don't know who's on the other end of that. Maybe you say they're, you know, Sam Johnstone from wherever, but you don't know who that really is, you know? So I think, I think it's really, it's, it's the same predatory behavior taken to the next level and exploiting whatever technology is available. I mean, in the old days, you know, you could sell the same tractor six times at the bus station, you know, to the same guy looking

• 47:06Speaker 02

  to buy a tractor. You could get away with it about, you know, seven times before the sheriff would figure out what you're up to. And today, you know, it's just, all you need is a picture of the tractor and, you know, people sell some multiple times, you know, all the time online. So you gotta be careful.

• 47:23Ed Mylett?

  I was gonna just add to what you're saying that, you know, I'm a, I'm a target for certain people just because of, you know, net worth or whatever or reach. And I just want to share with the audience that when someone, someone doesn't usually come right directly at me with their thing they'd like to get from me. It trickles over time and it can seem like a very normal relationship in the beginning, even for an extended period of time. But what I didn't know was in the back of their mind, they were waiting for that moment where I was the most comfortable, I was the most vulnerable, I was the most trusting. We are, we are being groomed by people for different things other than just what Chris is experiencing or experienced. So that's true, isn't it, Chris? There's a grooming that someone's, someone who's trying to get something from you.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  I mean, I've seen it, you know, I've seen it in my life. I mean, you know, I said to people, I said, do you, do you, do you really think that I'm the guy you want to try and con? How do you think that's going to possibly go? And mostly people, you know, make up a story, but it's happened a couple of times where, you know, somebody's, I've caught somebody trying to take advantage or an online scam or, you know, the typical phone calls you get where you know it's, it's, it's somebody trying to get money from you for some nefarious reason. And, you know, that you can tell because they'll say Kristoff or, you know, be half the name that doesn't fit on their, on their readout sheet. Now, put an ER on

• 48:52Speaker 02

  that. Or take the off off that. Does that name sound at all familiar to you? Oh, my God, sorry about that.

• 48:59Ed Mylett?

  They picked the worst dude in the world.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Could you, could you, could you pick a worse human being to screw with on this day?

• 49:08Ed Mylett?

  My last question, I'm curious. Redemption, but I just, I think I've always in my mind thought when it came to sexual predators, physical predators, physical abusers, I've just sort of always, that's been a category that I went, no, they're not redeemed. They're, they don't come back. They don't get a second chance. I'm just being candid about everything. Liars, cheats, flanders, bad people, gossipers, they can all be redeemed and changed. That cat, those two categories for me have always been, no, they're not redemptive. No way, no how ever would I trust them again.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Well, I think, I think there's a, there's a category of predators who can never be reformed. I think there, there definitely is, is, you know, a group. And no matter what you do or how you punish or anything else, they're going to figure out a way to pray. They're, they're hardwired to do it. And that's probably at least in my experience of 30 of these guys, you know, are going to change. And they're going to be, and we've seen them. We've seen them get out. We've seen them reoffend. We've seen guys who successfully go on to have productive lives. And, you know, I think there, there are categories that.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  With monitoring and probation and some sort of treatment, I think they'll be fine. But we've also had guys in prominent positions who, you know, bid the therapist and had their parole officer visit and they're not supposed to have a device that has access to the internet and the phone rings while they're in with the therapist and the probation officer and they're caught red handed with the phone. I mean, you know, it's like, come on, Jesus, could you at least try, you know, but they can't be reformed in some cases.

• 50:47Ed Mylett?

  Thank you for today.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Thank you. No, what a treat. And thanks for having me on and I appreciate the thoughtful conversation and good luck to you and all your endeavors and let's do it again.

• 50:57Ed Mylett?

  I think you're wonderful and guys, I think predators I've caught is something I cannot wait to hear. I mean, I

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Thank you for that.

• 51:03Ed Mylett?

  I'm riveted, I'm accused of being addicted to your program and addicted to you in terms of the work that you've done and it's really true. If I've missed one, I've missed one because I think I've seen all the other ones.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Well, we had more, we have more coming. So, and we'll have a, I think we'll have a little announcement on that next month or so. So I'll keep you posted.

• 51:21Ed Mylett?

  Yeah. Follow Chris on Instagram, you guys. Today was a little bit of a different take because I want you, your family protected. I want you thinking about people that are grooming you for all kinds of different things. And I think grooming is that word, that word of someone sort of working on you towards some ill-gotten means, some ill-gotten intent in your life. And we have literally the world's expert on the show today too. Plus you're just fascinating. I know everybody wanted to hear from you today. So thank you, Chris Hansen.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Thank you, Ed. I truly appreciate it. It was great to be here.

• 51:50Ed Mylett?

  I enjoyed it. All right, guys. Hey, share today's show. Make sure you subscribe to YouTube if you're listening to the audio. If you're listening to audio, go over there and get on YouTube because there's different content there as well. God bless you all. Max out.