Josh Brolin, Vol. II

What happens when you combine one of our best actors with one of our most unfiltered conversationalists? You get Josh Brolin! Josh returns to the podcast to chat about WEAPONS, AVENGERS memories, roles he turned down including AVATAR, and more. UPCOMING EVENTS! Ben Stiller & Seth Rogen LIVE in Los Angeles on August 15th! ⁠⁠Get your tickets here ⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  There was a moment there where actors were just only interested in being famous. Yeah. You know, and it was really depressing. And you go back to like me and Benicio and Mark and all that, where we were studying with Stell Adler and we were like in it. We were in it. You know, you do a scene just to do it. You get together with people in the weekends and read through plays and you were in it. Yeah. You know, you were up against each other in a hallway and listening to the this and you were competing with the person, but you were friends with the person and you didn't want them to get it, but you did want them to get it. You know what I mean? All that stuff. So I feel like there's a new echelon of actors that have kind of gone back to this guttural, visceral place.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:49Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today's main event is Josh Brolin, one of our great actors, talking all things weapons and his illustrious, amazing career. Uh, thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. This is a fun one, great actor, great conversationalist. What more can you ask for? Um, satisfaction guaranteed in the next forty-five to, I don't know, hour. Time flew by with Josh Brolin. It's a good one. Before we get to that, some announcements, updates, as always, all this stuff always is available on our Patreon. Go there for early access and discount codes and merch, patreon.com/happy, say confused. It really means a lot. We put up a really cool,

• 2:32Josh Horowitz?

  extended, unedited version of our Outlander, of my Outlander conversation I did for MTV. MTV was kind enough to let me have the full, unvarnished, unedited, for good or for bad, conversation with Sam, Richard, and Sophie. So if you're an Outlander fan, check that out exclusively on our Patreon, in addition to, as I said, early announcements of guests, and can ask questions, and yada, yada, yada. Um, speaking of events, two I want to mention, August fourteenth in New York City, uh, I am talking to the stars and director of Thursday Murder Club, which is the new Netflix film. Uh, we're showing the film at Paris, at the Paris Theater. All this information is in the show notes, the link for it. Uh, we're showing

• 3:15Josh Horowitz?

  the film, then it's going to be followed by a Q and A that I do with, get this, get a hold of this lineup. Pierce Brosnan, Helen Mirren, Ben Kingsley, director Chris Columbus. Pretty cool. Uh, so I believe tickets are still available for that one. Check it out. And then the next day, I hop on a flight, quick flight to LA, because I'm doing Ben Stiller and Seth Rogen together, which is gonna be a blast. I'm so excited for this one. Um, the bad news is tickets have sold out. I mean, it's good news for me. I'm happy. Tickets sold out almost immediately. But usually, we do, uh, offer a couple last-minute seats. Invariably, seats come available at the very last minute. So check out my Instagram

• 3:55Josh Horowitz?

  page. Um, I'll announce if and when seats become available, because those will go fast. Um, those are the two big upcoming events to mention. In addition, mark your calendars for New York Comic Con. Try to come by, because I'll be doing a lot of stuff for that. Um, more info, info to come on that one. Okay. Quick preamble, Josh Brolin, then we'll get right to it. Um, I don't need to sell you on Josh Brolin. He's one of the greats, particularly the last two decades, since No Country For Old Men kind of revitalized his career. Been working with so many great filmmakers. Obviously, he's a regular with Denis Villeneuve, Sicario, Dune, et cetera. But even you look at his upcoming stuff, Edgar Wright, The Running

• 4:37Josh Horowitz?

  Man, he's reteaming with Ridley Scott, Ryan Johnson in the new Knives Out movie. This guy just picks great filmmaker after great filmmaker, and he's done it again, this time with a rising filmmaker. Zach Craig is the writer-director behind Barbarian, which of course made a big splash a couple of years ago. If you haven't seen it, see it. It's wild and fantastic. And his new film Weapons, which opens this week, really great and a step up in many ways. The filmmaking is impeccable. It is a big swing. You guys know I love big swings, horror, but also just deep drama, some absurd comedy. And yeah, the less said, the better. You've

• 5:20Josh Horowitz?

  seen the trailer. You probably get a sense of the premise, which is essentially a bunch of kids leave their parents' homes in the middle of the night. What happened? Where did they go? Yeah, so harrowing stuff. Josh Brolin, Alden Ehrenreich, Julian Garner, a real cool ensemble. Highly recommend it, and Josh kills it in it, as always. This is a great chat. He is unvarnished, no BS. One of those guys. We talk a lot about the successes. Yes, the Sicarios, the Avengers films, but also the things that he's turned down. Birdman, Avatar, Green Lantern, very open and honest. So I love this chat. I think you'll love it, too.

• 6:04Josh Horowitz?

  Without any further ado, here's me and Josh Brolin. There's a professional, Josh Brolin, giving his own sync clap. You're full service that way.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  I am.

• 6:15Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks for doing this, man. It's good to see you.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really good to see you.

• 6:19Josh Horowitz?

  We are talking, oh, great many things, because it's a podcast, but we're talking Weapons. This is one of the good ones. When did you exhale and say it's one of the good ones?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Funny you just said that, because I just did CBS Morning, and I was like, you know, it's not, it's not fun doing this when you have a movie that sucks.

• 6:38Josh Horowitz?

  You've been, you've done a lot of movies and I've talked to you for a lot of different movies. Some great ones, a couple not great. When, have you been in that situation where like during a press tour it hits you like, oh, the way they're talking to me.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  No, at the beginning, not during, the beginning, I know immediately. Or I know, or I have my own feelings about it. I mean, look, like it's been enough time now, but we've talked about it a lot. Jonah Hex.

• 7:02Josh Horowitz?

  I talked to you for that one, yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  You know, I talked, it brought in a lot of people. I brought in Malkovich, I brought in Megan, I brought in Michael Shannon, who was totally cut out, I brought in Fassbender, about all these people. So you have this silver platter of actors and then the movie doesn't turn out necessarily as good. And not even the director's fault, and I've given the director shit, but the director's cut was actually pretty good and then the studio took it over. And then it wasn't very good, but you know, when everybody goes up an octave, there's a problem. They're like, oh my God, it's like, super good, you know? I saw, I saw it. You're like, I know you saw it.

• 7:39Josh Horowitz?

  The costumes are...

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Oh my God, John, how'd you get John?

• 7:45Josh Horowitz?

  Do you lean in then during the press tour or do you hang back? Do you kind of like, you know, I'm in?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  No, but I try to be, I mean, you know this about me, I try to be real and authentic. And, you know, I don't necessarily sell it based on my extremely positive reaction. I'll say things like, it has an audience, stuff like that.

• 8:08Josh Horowitz?

  I want the keywords to listen for for the next time, you make a dud.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'll notice it, you'll notice it.

• 8:16Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, what's the sensation now when you sit down to see a film for the first time that you've been in? Do you go in with optimism, dread, like, like, you've, again, been doing this a minute. Are you kind of an open audience or how do you feel kind of when you first sit down?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  I think every film I sit down for, I'm open. I think that there is an innate reaction that I have, being a lover of film, that I, that started when I was very young, where the movie theater was the one, not necessarily at home, the movie theater is the one place where I strip away all ego and all like, um...

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Like predetermined reaction. And I'm open to it all. So I'll see movies, I all I my kids that are older, I'll have seen movies with them. Cry through the whole movie. And then they go, are you OK? And then I go, you know, what'd you think? And I go, this is not a very good movie.

• 9:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  But I'm totally.

• 9:13Josh Horowitz?

  You are an open vessel.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  I am an open vessel. I'm an exposed nerve to the experience. So when I see a movie of mine, I'm hoping that it's good. But I just said this recently because the reaction to, and I know we're going to talk about it. The reaction to Weapons is a major, it was one of the biggest reactions of any premiere I've ever been to.

• 9:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  And it wasn't a typical premiere audience where it was a bunch of people in the industry going, oh, my God. You're so great. You're always so great. How do you do it?

• 9:41Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  To people really reacting, like fear and.

• 9:45Josh Horowitz?

  Visceral reaction.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Visceral reaction. It reminded me of like a Tarantino film where it's like, I want to, I want to leave. I, I, I know I shouldn't be experiencing this and I can't leave.

• 9:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  I can't even go to the bathroom and get popcorn because I have to see what happens next. So when you're dealing with a movie like that, it's much easier to promote.

• 10:05Josh Horowitz?

  So before, before we get to weapons, I'm curious, like, do you remember the first times you saw yourself on screen? Goonies, Thrashin, those premieres and how you reacted seeing yourself in that context?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I was, I was, I, yeah, I was younger. I wasn't used to it yet. So when I saw the Goonies, like I heard how high my voice was.

• 10:26Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  And I was like, well, fuck, why do I, why do I speak like that? I sound like I have a perpetual cold. Like, is it drugs? Is this, what is it? And then, and then we got into Thrashin. And then Thrashin, I was devastated. I thought I was so bad. You know, and that's why I taught, I don't, I don't do that anymore. I used to do that. Somebody say, hey, man, I love you in Thrashin. And you go, yeah. It wasn't good.

• 10:51Josh Horowitz?

  You don't want to destroy someone else's spirit.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  No, you don't want, exactly. So I don't do that anymore because some of the experiences are very personal. But Thrashin to me, even though it's become this like cult film. It was, was a moment where I said, OK, it's like, either go learn how to do this or stop, like, stop hurting people. Like you're hurting people.

• 11:12Josh Horowitz?

  How effective you are as an actor, you're actually hurting people.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  You're hurting people. You're not representing the human condition very well.

• 11:19Josh Horowitz?

  So how did you recover from that? It took a minute, it took a while.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  No, I moved to New York and I was very lucky to kind of get together with a guy named Anthony Zerbi who turned me on to like plays and books and I started doing plays and I started, yeah, my whole trajectory changed.

• 11:34Josh Horowitz?

  It's funny, you always talk about Anthony Zerbi and it's like, my reference point for him is like, as a Star Trek fan, I think he was like a bad guy in a Star Trek movie.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  He was.

• 11:41Josh Horowitz?

  I know he's so important to you.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  He is, and he's not the Star Trek guy to me.

• 11:45Josh Horowitz?

  Of course not.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  I don't even think I saw it, but anyway.

• 11:48Josh Horowitz?

  Probably not as far as.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  I won't do this the whole time.

• 11:50Josh Horowitz?

  No, you're good, you're good. It struck me, so like, turning to weapons, you're working with this filmmaker, Zach Craigor.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:58Josh Horowitz?

  Those that watch or listen to the podcast know his work because they know Barbarian was such a phenomenal, kind of out of nowhere.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Success.

• 12:05Josh Horowitz?

  Work from him, yeah. It struck me though, looking at your career, we've talked about kind of the trajectory of the last 15, 20 years, you haven't worked with that many filmmakers starting out. You've worked with the established, the gods, right?

• 12:18Speaker 02

  I've been very lucky.

• 12:19Josh Horowitz?

  And, but the last two, at least that have been released, Brothers and this one, are relatively early in the trajectory of filmmakers' work. Has that been something like, are you wary to put yourself in the hands of someone that's relatively just starting out, or?

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you're protected. You're protected, even if the movie doesn't turn out well, you know the filmmaker and he has an move and like, I turned Denis down for Sicario a couple of times and that's been out there and it's not meant to be insulting in any way, but he had done four or five films before that.

• 12:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  But I was like, I don't know his work, and this and that, because you're protected. If you were working with Ridley on American Gangster, if you're working with the Coens, like, they may not do a great film every single time, but.

• 13:05Josh Horowitz?

  You play the odds.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  The odds are pretty fucking good and even if the film's not that great, you know it's going to be cut together well, you know it's going to be good music, you know the production design is going to be good, you know, all that stuff. So when the, you know, quote unquote, newbies come along, and I know this was a decision for me, I was like, look, I'm, there's something that feels stale to me, even though I feel like we've been doing really good movies, really interesting movies, we've been mixing it up, and I'm constantly trying to mix it up, just out of my own interest.

• 13:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  It's like. Deadpool two, like, why would I do that? I've never been interested in that. Right. I'm fifty at the time. Could I get in that kind of shape? Could we deal with a comedy with Ryan Reynolds? Can I hold my own? Like, it all got very scary to me. And I was like, I like that kind of fear. So with Zack, um, yeah, he was, I hadn't seen Barbarian. Right. I did read the script because Pedro Pascal dropped out because he had the scheduling conflict, which I think is okay to say. Um, I read the script immediately. I thought it was amazingly designed. It reminded me of like following, like early Nolan and hopping around. And I always loved that early Inuri two, early Nolan thing.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  And my own book is nonlinear. Perspective. Perspective and like past, future, this, that. And, and then I wanted to meet him and I met him. And he told me immediately that every character was based on a reaction that he had had in the trajectory of his grieving process for a friend to his that had died. And I was, we were both very emotional during that thing. And I was like, now this is so left field. Yeah. You know, this is a, we're talking about the same horror movie, right? It's cosmetic and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And then you're telling me about this profound experience or the underpinnings.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  And I love that. And then he's using the horror genre as, as a tool, you know, to manifest whatever this grief is that he's feeling. So I was hooked at that point. Then I saw Barbarian. Then I was confused because I thought Barbarian was super good, but it was funny, but it was scary, but it was absurd. So I called my daughter Eden and I said, "Have you seen this barbarian movie?" She was like, "Oh my god, best movie of the last five years." And I was like, "Okay, let me talk to your husband." And I talked to her husband, same thing. Called more 20 and 30 something, same thing, like across the board. Barbarian, amazing, sensate, incredible movie, hilarious, scary, whatever.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  So obviously, he has his finger on the pulse of something unique.

• 15:54Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I will say, and I don't know, I mean, everyone's got their own interpretation of the movie. I think this movie is all of that too.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  I do too.

• 16:00Josh Horowitz?

  It, you know, without revealing stuff, it gets wild and actually funny for a, to me at times, for a movie that is very much rooted in human grief and frailty and all the, all the stuff. But it, it, it also goes to weird, crazy places that, I don't know, maybe it's a defense mechanism to laugh, but I was laughing a little bit by the, the last act. And I think, I don't know, I like those big swings from filmmakers.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 16:28Josh Horowitz?

  Like, you know, I know Magnolia has been off for it as a reference point, and I get that, the reference points, like, because it's changing perspectives. But like, Magnolia for me is like that crazy thing of like, "How does this all work?"

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:39Josh Horowitz?

  This is comedy, this is drama, this is absurdity, this is fantasy.

• 16:45Josh Horowitz?

  And the greats somehow can like, make it all work somehow in a stew.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  But as an art piece, like, I remember seeing Magnolia for the first time and just being in absolute awe.

• 16:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  But there's an artistry to that, not that there's not an artistry to Zack's movie, I think there absolutely is, but Zack's movie is way more fun.

• 17:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean?

• 17:07Josh Horowitz?

  A hundred percent.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  And I knew that, so when you go into it, your initial question is like, you take chances on people, like, I, I do, and I haze, and I know I do it. I'm like, "Damn, fuck this up, man," and like, "Are you the real thing?" or whatever.

• 17:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  And then I saw the movie and I was like, "Holy shit." Like, that was a real experience.

• 17:26Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, are you the type of actor that takes, takes it home with you? Because this is a dark headspace to be in. You don't, I wouldn't necessarily think you would want to live this guy's pain and suffering and anger for months at a time.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know if I'd take it home. I mean, I got kids, that would be, you know.

• 17:43Josh Horowitz?

  Cruel to them.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it would be cruel to them. "Are you a monster?"

• 17:47Josh Horowitz?

  "Sorry, this is for the art."

• 17:49Speaker 02

  "Do you want to kill me?" "I know you're four."

• 17:54Josh Horowitz?

  But generally, over your career, has that adjusted? Has that changed?

• 17:57Speaker 02

  I think it's changed. It depends on the movie. It depends on the role. It depends on... To me, this is not a performance movie, even though I think all the performances are really good and the actors are really good. It's really a story film. I mean, it's just... Again, it's like watching a Tarantino movie where you're just wrapped up in the story. You're wrapped up in the type of... You're wrapped up in his tone, his cadence, all that kind of stuff. And I think that the same thing goes with Zack. But the premiere of this movie, I don't know, other than Avengers: Endgame, which is 10 years in the making, I don't know that I've ever been to such a reactive premiere in my life. And you said, almost embarrassingly,

• 18:42Speaker 02

  you were like, "Okay, I laughed a little bit." And then you do this. People were uproariously laughing and obviously scared out of their minds.

• 18:52Josh Horowitz?

  I also love, yeah, without, again, revealing stuff. I love not realizing that the eighth lead in the film is going to have their own arc in an hour into the movie. Like, I fell in love with Austin Abrams, like, with his performance.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought it was great. Me, too.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 20:18Josh Horowitz?

  You haven't really done a lot of horror in your career. I mean, we could talk Mimic.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:24Josh Horowitz?

  Mimic was, I mean, talk about working with a great filmmaker and taking a bet. That was a good bet to make.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  That was a good bet.

• 20:30Josh Horowitz?

  Guillermo has spoken extensively that was not a great experience for him.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:34Josh Horowitz?

  Did you see him having the goods on that experience? Like, did you see a filmmaker in turmoil? Or what do you remember about going through that?

• 20:42Speaker 02

  No, I mean, he showed me, I mean, we all know them now. Nobody knew them then. He showed me his journals back then. He turned me on to The Monk, which is one of the great books that he turned me on to back then. I remember him almost getting fired. I remember Jeremy Northern almost getting fired and me replacing him. I remember, I mean, there was a lot of, I remember Uli Bornadel, who directed Night Watch.

• 21:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Almost replaced Guillermo.

• 21:08Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  And Night Watch came out and nobody saw it. But there was, Guillermo was engaged, man.

• 21:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  He was engaged, and he's still engaged. I just saw him not too long ago, and he was like, "Bro, Lynn, what's up?" And you know what I mean? He's just, he has something really special, and he had it back then. And I wasn't doing well at that point. But, in a lot of different ways. But he was an exciting moment for me. Do you know what I mean? Zack is an exciting moment for me, you know? So when you have, you know, Denis and Sicario was an exciting moment.

• 21:50Josh Horowitz?

  That's a shift, yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  But you're collaborating, and I think that's the difference. Like, with Denis, with Guillermo, with Zack, it was a real collaboration. It was like, it just lands there right away. With Denis, we were writing scenes in Sicario, and, you know, Benicio doesn't want to learn all that dialogue. It just, he knows it's all right there, and it needs to be said. It's like expositional set. How do we make it behavioral? And then me and Denis would be sitting there, writing scenes 15 minutes before we do it. You know? That's a collaboration.

• 22:22Josh Horowitz?

  I just caught up with Benicio for the Wes Anderson movie.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 22:25Josh Horowitz?

  We were reminiscing about Sicario. Yeah, famously just him like stripping away so much and like what a genius move that was because the power of

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Truly.

• 22:33Josh Horowitz?

  That guy without words.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Without words. It's everything. All he needs to do is and you have to exploit. And then when you've been around long enough, like me and Benicio worked together the first time when we were 19 years old. And a thing called TV series called Private Eye. It was Bario Nights. It was a two-part, two-episode arc. You know, and he like, I think it's in the scene, like he's in the middle of the scene and he starts hitting something and we're all taking ourselves so seriously and there's no objectivity. Whereas now it's like there's technique and there's objectivity and I can utilize myself in this way and I think this lends to the story better and you start to think of it more from, you know, a few steps back.

• 23:16Josh Horowitz?

  So you mentioned Benicio and knowing him from way back when, who were like your contemporaries early on that you were going up against for roles, going, you know, talking acting, talking shop. Was like Sean back then?

• 23:28Speaker 02

  No, Sean was all somebody we all looked up to. Sean and Mickey and like I just had dinner with Sean and Nolte. And a couple of other people.

• 23:39Josh Horowitz?

  Nolte, the voice.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  It was great and it was and Sean was saying, very openly was saying, it's so funny because Sean really became an actor when Nolte did Rich Man, Poor Man.

• 23:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  And said, that's what I want to do. And Sean was saying, he was like 20 at the time. And he was saying, I've got time because Nolte didn't really hit until he was like 40. I think he did Rich Man, Poor Man when he was 38 or 39.

• 24:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Around the same time that I did No Country. So Sean had all this time and then suddenly these younger movies started coming out and then it was like that was it. So then Fast Times and then Bad Boys and all that. And then I was looking up to Sean. So you have this table.

• 24:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Where I've done, I think, two or three movies with Nolte. I've done two movies with Sean. And, you know, now it's like one big happy dysfunctional friendship.

• 24:33Josh Horowitz?

  Nolte is on that continuum for me. He's like that, that Gene Hackman level of like without a false note. Like I've never heard anything come out of his mouth. That's

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Ever. Even though he's jolly like this.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  What? You're just like, what the fuck?

• 24:52Josh Horowitz?

  He did the podcast many years ago and told like an insane Terrence Malick story that I feel like I only understood forty percent of. But even just the growl.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Didn't matter.

• 25:00Josh Horowitz?

  It's the whole thing.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you're being growled at, it's a good thing.

• 25:05Josh Horowitz?

  So who were the ones that were getting the roles?

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Ruffalo.

• 25:08Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, okay.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Ruffalo was a contemporary, but you know, going through his own thing, Benicio. But I remember like, God, man, I read for, oh, wait, bear with me.

• 25:22Josh Horowitz?

  Why that?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  It was Benicio and, and, and Meg Ryan.

• 25:28Josh Horowitz?

  Benicio?

• 25:29Speaker 02

  No, no, sorry. Denzel Washington and Meg Ryan.

• 25:32Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah. Courage Under Fire.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Courage Under Fire was Ed Zwick.

• 25:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  So I read for it. I remember going in and reading for that room and they were like, hey, thank you. Thank you for coming in. And I begged to get back in that room. I used every possible tool, person, whatever to get, because I was like, I know that role.

• 25:52Josh Horowitz?

  Was this the Matt Damon role?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  It wasn't the Matt Damon role. It was, I'll tell you. And then, and I walked back, I got somebody to get me back in that room and I walked in and I knew immediately. Like, there was no way.

• 26:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  It was impossible. I was a nobody. I wasn't a good actor, maybe, or whatever. And they walked in and they go, hey. I was like, oh, fuck, man. You know, and they're like, I said, is there anything, you know, I went through it once and is there anything else you want me to do? They're like, no, thank you though so much. And it was Lou Diamond Phillips that got it.

• 26:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  And, and I was, and I love Lou, but I was super bummed because I was like, you know, it didn't, you know, there were Ruffalos in my mind or Benicio's in my mind. And then Lou was a little below that. And then, you know, you have your kind of echelon of people. And I was somewhere down here, you know, I was like an afterthought.

• 26:45Josh Horowitz?

  You, our last podcast conversation, you intimated there was like one role that you kind of regretted turning down in recent years, and I finally figured it out because you mentioned there was Inuri Two. So it was the Edward Norton role in Birdman, right? So is that something where, what's your relationship to that film because of?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  I love that film.

• 27:03Josh Horowitz?

  You're able to kind of just associate and still?

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Immediately, man. If somebody, I mean, this happens all the time. It's like, you know, Milk was supposed to be Matt.

• 27:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  So it's like, it happens all the time and you don't even think twice about it. But Deadpool Two was supposed to be Brad. When I walked into the office, I saw drawings of Brad everywhere, you know?

• 27:24Josh Horowitz?

  Didn't even hide them?

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Jurassic Park was supposed to be me. Brad walked in there and he saw drawings of me everywhere. So it doesn't matter. It's just like, it's part of the deal. But when I saw Edward in that role, he's perfect.

• 27:38Josh Horowitz?

  He kills it.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  He kills it. So that was one of those things where I go, I, because I had done the table reading. And it was funny. And then I pulled out because I went and saw my son in Thailand. So I know why I pulled out. I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it even today. But I would have liked to have done that movie and I love Inuri Two. I think he's amazing.

• 27:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you always bring him up. It sounds like that's one of his ones.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that's probably it because I see him on the street in Venice and all that and he goes, and I go, I'm done.

• 28:06Josh Horowitz?

  I'm very happy that Tom Cruise is working with him.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  I know.

• 28:10Josh Horowitz?

  That Tom is.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  That's exciting.

• 28:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, we love Tom in the Mission movies. I want to see Tom in something like that.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Dude, I saw Tom recently at CinemaCon, you know, and he's so like, you know, "Hey, man, how you doing?" You know, it's like, "You gonna make another one, R2? Yes, 19, it's gonna be amazing. I'll be hanging off a thread in the thing in the sky and the thing, I'm gonna jump 127,000 feet." You're like, great. But you forget that Tom was in Born on the Fourth of July.

• 28:37Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, I don't forget.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  I don't forget either.

• 28:40Josh Horowitz?

  The power of money.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Like as film fanatics, like he was so inspiring when we were young. So he was somebody that we looked up to.

• 28:50Josh Horowitz?

  I always say, you look at like the first 10, 15 years of his career and the way he selected filmmakers. It was like Sidney Pollack, Scorsese, Stone. It was just, he ran through everybody.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  He was a big influence for me, just like you say, going for the like, once you have the opportunity.

• 29:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  After doing No Country, I just said, I just want to work with great filmmakers. Yes, but do you want that much money?

• 29:12Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  And you could work for, and you're like, I really do want that much money.

• 29:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  I really do. I could really, I could utilize it well. I'm good with business and all that kind of stuff. But if I take it, I know it's the only money that I'll get. So I'm going to go take this way, way, way less money, but way better job, way better filmmaker.

• 29:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  And it does. And I know that Tom Cruise had a, had a major impact on me in that way.

• 29:37Josh Horowitz?

  Um, speaking of major money, uh, Thanos, The Avengers films.

• 29:44Josh Horowitz?

  That's my segue. That's my, that's my, my drugged up segue.

• 29:49Josh Horowitz?

  Was there a moment or more early on where you're like, is this really going to work? Are they going to buy the purple guy on screen? Like, I mean, I'm delivering the best I can, but this is also, a lot of artisans need to make this.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  No, because there's a level of absurdity that I enjoy so much that it goes back to, and I've said it a million times, but it goes back to like black box theater.

• 30:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  When you have no money and you're pretending that this thing is a gun.

• 30:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  You know, and you're just like, no, and if you have enough conviction, it actually, people will start to think it's a gun.

• 30:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  And, and there was a level of that where they would even, because they were afraid it was going to get out, give us a phony scene and then give us the real scene when we get there, which to me is like hell.

• 30:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Because I can't prep, I can't this, I'm thinking about the lines and all this kind of stuff. But it all worked out. And by the way, that was supposed to be, uh, what do you call it? A. Like a cameo, it was supposed to be when it was first brought to me, I was doing the Everest movie and I was in London and they brought me this huge bible and they were like, you know, it's just little thing and it's gonna be, you know, in it for like 10 minutes or something. And then it turned and then they changed it and turned into this whole thing. But no, I really, that was one movie, and I've said it Deadpool 2, I was like, you know, I'm glad it was one experience.

• 31:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  You know?

• 31:12Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  The Thanos thing, if they called me in London right now and said, "Let's do this," I'd be like, "I'll be there tomorrow."

• 31:19Josh Horowitz?

  You mean, are you in contact, obviously Downey is back, we're excited to see what he does with Doom. Like, do you stay in touch with Downey, the Russos, and are you abreast of like what with Doom?

• 31:26Speaker 02

  I talk to Downey probably four to six times a year, I talk to the Russos probably four to six times a week. I mean, I talk to Joe a lot, a lot. I mean, we have a business that we're doing together and all this kind of stuff, but I love them. I love, I love both of them, I think they're amazing.

• 31:43Josh Horowitz?

  So, it wouldn't be a tough proposition, I mean, obviously, like, you don't want to go back and do a lesser version. You went out on such a great note, but like, you have confidence in these guys if they come up with something that makes sense.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Of course, they're gonna come up with something really fun, I mean, who knows?

• 31:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Who knows, that was a 10-year in the building kind of thing and, you know, that was its own kind of bookended deal and I don't know what they're gonna do, but I'm sure it'll be interesting. I think they do that very, very, very well.

• 32:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, also just the fluidity of the scripts, like, I mean, again, as an actor, you were just saying this, like, prep is everything.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Everything.

• 32:15Josh Horowitz?

  So, like, Endgame and Infinity, like, the scripts were, I don't know how, if they were ever locked.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I don't know.

• 32:25Josh Horowitz?

  But you were never handed, like, "Here, Josh," is your script for these two films?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Ever, ever, I never knew, and I did Deadpool in the middle of it. So, I would leave.

• 32:35Josh Horowitz?

  That's a lot of chaos.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Like, I would be a little fat during one, and then I'd leave and then I'd get in really good shape and then I'd come back with a different haircut and all that, and then I'd finish that scene and we'd do things over that didn't necessarily work the first time and all that, yeah.

• 32:49Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have any specific memories of the final confrontation with Downey when you murdered poor Iron Man?

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember the late Jimmy Rich, who was a really close friend of mine, who was Downey's right-hand guy, who's not around anymore, got in an accident.

• 33:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Handing off.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Nicotine gum. I remember Downey would do this and Jimmy Rich would be there with a piece of nicotine gum. That's what I remember about the end. And I remember I was in my thing. It's like there's a couple of times that I remember putting my hand on Downey's head. Super uncomfortable. Little sexual. And then there was another moment where I was with Zoe. And you know, I wore the back piece where the Thanos head is way, way up, which is how tall he would be. So she had to look at that during the scene, kind of an emotional scene. And I had to look at her crotch. So she's looking at that and I'm looking at that.

• 33:50Josh Horowitz?

  This is why they pay you the big bucks. Commitment.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  That's for technique.

• 33:54Josh Horowitz?

  Shut it all out.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  If only Ed Zwick had used me when he could have.

• 33:59Josh Horowitz?

  I can play to Denzel's crotch if you need me to.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Totally, totally.

• 34:07Josh Horowitz?

  You haven't done theater in a while and you did, you did True West here about 25 years ago.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Was it 25? Yes, 25.

• 34:15Josh Horowitz?

  2000.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, 2000.

• 34:16Josh Horowitz?

  Which is a very famous production, of course. Phil Hoffman, John C. Reilly, you and I never know how to pronounce his name. I love him.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Elias Cattaius.

• 34:23Josh Horowitz?

  Cattaius. Is there some kind of unfinished business of like going back to theater? I mean, you have so many opportunities right now.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  If I didn't have young kids, you know, Scott Rudin, I talked to once in a while. It was, it was asked of me recently if I wanted to do something and I, I, I know. And I said, I don't say this with conceit, but I say it with, I know if we wanted to do something. I just saw Clooney do his thing. I was very moved by it. I thought he did a great job. But why?

• 34:57Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  For the theater, like if it's a great piece, and especially if it's a new piece. You know, I had just written a play and Patricia Arquette did the reading of the play just to hear it. And it was so great to be in that position to be able to hear a play on a very kind of a naked, raw level. That wasn't, you know, the it play or the this or that. So, you know, if I went and did To Kill a Mockingbird, I'd go, well, Jeff Daniels just did that.

• 35:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  That's, that was great for him. And it'd been a while since it had been done. You know, if we do Streetcar or something, it's like, do we have to do that?

• 35:35Josh Horowitz?

  Do we need another?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. We need a new, and there's a couple of them. Downey did that play, which I thought was really good.

• 35:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  But is it necessary? No.

• 35:45Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's also, I think, for many actors, it's kind of a proving ground at different stages of their life. And if anything, the last 15 years has been this continuous like proving that Josh Brolin can work at the top level. And like, you have nothing left to prove.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Well, that's, that's the thing. And I don't, it's not that I don't feel that I have nothing left to prove, but I like the idea of proving that you can do more than one or two good movies in a trajectory of a career.

• 36:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  If you have discipline.

• 36:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  And if you work with the right people and if you think about, you know, it sounds so lame, but like representing, you know, the human condition appropriately. If you don't drink the Kool-Aid and become too much of a movie star and start living in a bubble and you're like, how are you representing the everyman?

• 36:31Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  When you're, when you have five Porsches at home.

• 36:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right, two at most.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  You know, two at most. Like I get two.

• 36:39Josh Horowitz?

  You need the backup in case one's in the shop.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know?

• 36:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  And why are the, why are the colors so, why do you need baby blue? You know what I mean? And, and, you know, if you're a rock star, fine, that's like part of the thing. But you're representing something that I find that when you get it right, even something as crazy as weapons.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  That when you, when you look at how we get, my character, not that I'm gonna take it back to Weapons again and again and again. You have a guy who's like, you know, typical, manual masculinity. I don't moat with my son, I don't this, I'm a man-man, I have been in construction, I build things. And then you take that thing that's essential to that guy away and watch him start to break down. And he can't control anything. He's trying to control, "Why aren't you doing your job? Why did this? Where is my kid?" And then, by the end, he breaks.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  And then he realizes that he, this thing that was essential to him and what it really does mean to him, and allows him to just be present and emotional.

• 37:52Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, there's also an analogy as just an actor of like giving up control. Like you think you, right? Like you think you have control. You kind of alluded to this earlier. It's like, you can control your side of the street, your performance, but the nature of the medium is you're a piece in the puzzle.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  That's it. I just wrote that yesterday to my dad. I go, "You're, you're a small piece of that alchemy, of how something turns out." And if you get together with somebody with real vision, and that's, that's the connection between like Guillermo del Toro back then, or Zach Craig or now, or some people who I've tried and it hasn't worked. You know, where you go, you see the movie and you go, huh, really? Bummer, you know? I wanted that to be better. It could have been better. It was set up to be better.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Person did as good as they could have at this moment, but it didn't, it doesn't land like it does. Weapons lands.

• 38:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  To me.

• 38:49Josh Horowitz?

  You can put all the pieces in place. You can work with Paul Verhoeven and happen to be in the Paul Verhoeven movie. That's not the great Paul Verhoeven movie. It's just, you know what I mean? Exactly, that's what I'm saying.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Call me up, you know? It just is what it is.

• 39:02Josh Horowitz?

  That's kind of dumb luck.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  No, but it is, which is probably why we fought during that movie. And I have a lot of respect for Paul Verhoeven. One of the smartest filmmakers I have ever worked with. I mean, truly one of the smart, you know, he's a mathematician, he was a professor, he was all this stuff. But that fucking movie, dude. And I, by the way, this is a funny-

• 39:20Josh Horowitz?

  This is Hollow Man for the record.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Hollow Man for the record, seven months of that shit. And then, and I just worked with Elizabeth Shue, that's funny, on Whalefall. But, she, played my wife. So, we're doing that movie, and we have these goggles on with this like, you know, red film on it or whatever to make it look like they're x-ray or whatever. And then we're watching invisible monkeys pass us. And, and we finish the scene, and Kevin looks at me and he goes, "You got some chops." I was like, "What the fuck?" Like, "We're watching invisible monkeys pass us. What do you mean chop fr-" What? Based on what? And I didn't say anything, I was like, "Thanks, man."

• 40:03Josh Horowitz?

  He believed you were working at Invisible Monkeys, he bought your-

• 40:05Speaker 02

  I was just happy to have the job. And by the way, I know the only reason I got that job, because I read for that job and I didn't get it, was the fact that everybody else turned it down. Everybody was like, "Nah." I was like, "I'll do it, I'll do it." And I did it.

• 40:22Josh Horowitz?

  Do you like a little friction with the director? You worked with Oliver Stone, Verhoeven's like that, sometimes that can elicit something.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, yeah, I'm not, you know, there's other people that are known for it, but I'm not. I just wanna know, if you don't have a solid vision, then I probably will be a little-

• 40:42Josh Horowitz?

  Be in a bad way, yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Not curmudgeonly, but just actively surly. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, Oliver, Oliver and I almost got into it in the beginning because I wanted to look at the monitor at something, just so I could see if it was, if we were on or not. But Oliver and I got along great. Verhoeven and I fought in a big way. For good reason, I thought, you know, yelled at a couple of extras and I didn't like that. But, you know, I mean, all, stuff that I would talk about now, I really appreciate these people. Do I need, do I need friction? No. Like, Denis and I have no friction.

• 41:17Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  You know, we're super close, but I also know Denis has come on the set, which I appreciate. When it gets a little- Undisciplined and he'll get angry.

• 41:29Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, that's interesting. I was gonna just say, like, I can't imagine him raising his voice.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  It's not even him raising his voice. It's like working with Ryan Johnson recently.

• 41:36Josh Horowitz?

  Another sweet seeming.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Super sweet and a guy who you constantly want to impress.

• 41:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  I don't know how he does it, but there's this thing where you're like, I'm just slightly afraid of you.

• 41:49Josh Horowitz?

  Interesting.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  And it's a good thing.

• 41:51Josh Horowitz?

  Well, he's also someone, I do want to talk about some of the upcoming stuff. So you worked on Wake Up Dead Man. I think on our last conversation, you talked up Daniel Craig, so I can see why you would want to work on this one. Ryan, who just locks in those scripts so tightly, and then you get to work with this amazing ensemble. Is there a joy in kind of being like one of 10 great actors in something like that? And again, being a puzzle piece for Ryan Johnson?

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yes. And that was one of those no brainers.

• 42:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Because, you know, if you go, oh, I loved the first film. I didn't like the second film so much. And whatever it is, you go, the scripts are still really good. It's all there to be had. Glenn, I had just worked with on Brothers, and I love, I fell in love with her. Mila, I've always had like a crush on. I don't know anybody who hasn't. Daniel, I've always wanted to work with.

• 42:43Josh Horowitz?

  Josh O'Connor.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Josh Charles, Josh, sorry, Josh O'Connor, Renner, who I've known for, you know, all these people. But it was a great role. And my wife reminded me, you know, she said, do you remember that like a year ago? You said, God, I want to play like a priest or something. And then bang, you know, a year later, it manifests. It was, it was a really, really well-written role. That was one of those roles that I wasn't sure if I could pull off. And that was a good feeling.

• 43:48Speaker 06

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• 44:21Josh Horowitz?

  Where are we at on Denis and Dune? I think cameras are up. I think he's shooting it.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  We were just texting. Because there was a pinball machine that Steven Weintraub sent me. All you guys, I know all you guys. You're not all the same person.

• 44:36Josh Horowitz?

  You're plugged in. I know you are. So have you read the script for Dune 3: Dune Messiah, whatever the hell we call this?

• 44:43Speaker 02

  I have. Very good. It is, it's very good. It's super good.

• 44:49Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know if you, I haven't read Dune Messiah, the book, but Gurney isn't in that book that much, as far as I've read.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the movie too.

• 44:58Josh Horowitz?

  Oh no!

• 45:00Speaker 02

  No, I'm in it, but...

• 45:01Josh Horowitz?

  You're in it?

• 45:01Speaker 02

  I am.

• 45:02Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not there, right now. I've gotten texts by people who are also in it, who apparently haven't read the script or only read their parts, which I don't understand, because that's why I reached out to Denis. I was like, "Why are all these people think like, 'Hey, are you here yet?'" "Like, are we gonna go to the bath house in Budapest?" I'm like, "Dude, read the script." Like, do your job.

• 45:27Josh Horowitz?

  But this feels like a worthy conclusion to this trilogy?

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Oh, in a big way. In a big, big way. And I just talked to, you know, one of the heads of Warner Brothers, and they're very, very excited, in a visceral way.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  It's good. Yeah, I said something like, "I heard dailies are really good," and he goes, "How do you know?"

• 45:47Josh Horowitz?

  Well, good. Because I know. What do you think about him doing Bomb?

• 45:51Speaker 02

  I think it's great, man.

• 45:52Josh Horowitz?

  Come on.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  You know, there was talk about it a long time ago when we were doing, I think, Dude 2, and it was this over here somewhere. The fact that he's doing it, I think, is really fun. Look, you know this, he's one of my favorite guys, he's one of my favorite filmmakers, and it's like, "Oh, don't ruin it by doing," you know, "You're gonna do it." Why would you do three dudes? And why not? Like, that's his thing.

• 46:16Josh Horowitz?

  This is his passion, yeah.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  That's his passion. So he beats to his own drum, and I love anybody who beats to their own drum.

• 46:22Josh Horowitz?

  When I spoke to Benicio, he seemed to have some hope for another Sicario with you, Emily, I don't know if Denis would be involved or not, like...

• 46:30Speaker 02

  I mentioned at some point, I don't know, maybe just to be contrary, I was like, "Yeah, that's never gonna happen." And then the producers showed up, and Molly, and, you know, "That's not true." Which is fine. And then I just heard recently that it's very, very real.

• 46:48Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  So, cool.

• 46:50Josh Horowitz?

  You think with Denis? Do we know that?

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Don't know that.

• 46:53Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  I honestly don't know that.

• 46:55Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:58Josh Horowitz?

  Running Man, we're gonna probably talk for that one in a few months. Edgar Wright, digital stylist, locked in.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Super cool.

• 47:05Josh Horowitz?

  Again, another one, I feel like you're connecting, you know, the Infinity Stones of directors, another one, there's Edgar Wright.

• 47:12Josh Horowitz?

  Good experience?

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Amazing. And Glenn Powell, I love, I mean, really, really appreciate him.

• 47:18Josh Horowitz?

  Talking about a guy that's focused, knows what, like, the Tom Cruise approach, like, worked with great filmmakers, movie star, actor.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  But a smart guy, and then you look at that series that he did, and you're like, "Oh, he can act."

• 47:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean?

• 47:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  So, that's exciting to me, there's a new echelon of actors, whether it's Glenn, whether it's Chalamet, whether it's Austin Butler, Jacob Elordi, a lot of these people that I've worked with, who I really, really enjoy, because... It feels like there was a moment there where actors were just only interested in being famous.

• 47:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  You know, and it was really depressing. And you go back to like me and Benicio and Mark and all that, where we were studying with Stella Adler and we were like in it. We were in it. You know, you do a scene just to do it. You get together with people in the weekends and read through plays and you were in it.

• 48:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  You know, you were up against each other in a hallway and listening to the this and you were competing with the person, but you were friends with the person and you didn't want them to get it, but you did want them to get it. You know what I mean? All that stuff. So I feel like there's a new echelon of actors that have kind of gone back to this guttural, visceral place.

• 48:31Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I love that. I've referenced this a couple of times in the recent podcasts. I love Chao May's like, I think it was a SAG acceptance speech where he talked about like, I want to be one of the greats. Like I aspire, like it's not wrong to have like ambition to be great at what you do.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's true. And back then, we all, we all used to downplay the acting and like, what do you do? I'm an actor. Like I'm embarrassed. But you still wanted to be the best. You wanted the biggest challenge. You wanted to do the thing that stuck out. You wanted to be the anomaly. You wanted to, you didn't want to be, you know, a movie star.

• 49:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  That was for other people that couldn't act.

• 49:09Josh Horowitz?

  And then you fell into being a movie star too. Life is strange that way. Harder to say no to James Cameron or being Green Lantern?

• 49:20Speaker 02

  James Cameron. Like Green, I heard Green Lantern, I know it's Kyle Chandler and

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Paula Patton, who I did a pilot with, Antoine Fuqua with Paula Patton, who I love. And I'm super excited to see it. So that's a thing that you were talking about before, like can you remove yourself, dissociate? And I can't wait to see it. I can't, because I love Kyle Chandler. I think he's solid. He's fantastic. The James Cameron thing, that's kind of like the Deadpool thing. That was before the Deadpool thing. And it was like, I don't want to do this right. I don't want to take a year and a half out and do this.

• 49:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  But then Thanos comes up and you go, yes, immediately. Because I'm not part, I'm not part of the system. I'm over here. I'm this anomaly that comes in and I'm purple and I have a ball sack for a chin and like.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Count me in.

• 50:15Josh Horowitz?

  Music to my ears.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Count me in. I'm in.

• 50:18Josh Horowitz?

  So that was the Avatar sequel, to be clear. This isn't way back when. This isn't the first Avatar like 15 years ago.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:24Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, it's the first Avatar.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:25Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, was it the lead? Was it Sam's role?

• 50:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 50:27Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  It was Stephen Lang, who I knew.

• 50:32Josh Horowitz?

  You would be great too. He's amazing in it.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  He's amazing in it.

• 50:35Josh Horowitz?

  He's perfect.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  So it happened exactly like it should have.

• 50:38Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  I'm a big believer in things happen like they should.

• 50:41Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I'm gonna end with two things. I've been doing this with actors, including Benicio recently. This is cruel, but I'm gonna do it for you.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:47Josh Horowitz?

  When you have a great filmography, I want you to choose. We're gonna do round robin style. You're gonna choose your best film in your career. So I'm gonna pit some against each other.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:54Josh Horowitz?

  This is just gut.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:56Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so No Country versus Dune. What do you choose?

• 51:00Speaker 02

  No Country.

• 51:01Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Avengers, Goonies.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  If I had been in Shalhoub's role, maybe I'd say something different.

• 51:07Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough. Okay, so we're gonna mark that. Avengers or Goonies? What do you choose?

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Ah, dud.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Goonies.

• 51:15Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Um, Dune or Sicario? Oh, wait, I did Dune already. Let's do W. Let's do W or Sicario.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Sicario.

• 51:24Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. And then finally, Milk or Flirting with Disaster?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Milk. I love flirting, though.

• 51:31Josh Horowitz?

  Now, they go up against each other. So it's No Country versus Goonies.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Oh, I see.

• 51:36Josh Horowitz?

  See what's happening?

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. No Country versus Goonies.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, No Country.

• 51:43Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. And then we have Sicario versus Milk?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Fuck. Uh, Sicario. Nah. Versus Milk? Nah, Sicario.

• 51:55Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, and for all the marvels, No Country or Sicario? What's it gonna be?

• 51:59Speaker 02

  No Country or Sicario. No Country.

• 52:03Josh Horowitz?

  There you have it.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  There you go. I could've just, I could've just, yeah, we could've circumvented that whole thing and just said...

• 52:09Josh Horowitz?

  We're joining ahead.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  I mean, that was a special, Sicario never would've happened had it not been for No Country.

• 52:14Josh Horowitz?

  True. True. Okay, and then we finally end with the happy, sad, confused, profoundly random questions. Some rapid fire for you, Josh.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:21Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, dogs or cats?

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Dogs.

• 52:24Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect?

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Children.

• 52:31Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a favorite video game of all time?

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Um, Robotron.

• 52:37Josh Horowitz?

  The Dakota Johnson memorial question, she asked me this, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 52:43Speaker 02

  A mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 52:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Why do you say like it's a weird question?

• 52:48Speaker 02

  I have a bee in my butt right now. Um, a mouthful of bees.

• 52:52Josh Horowitz?

  Wow, that's, you're in the minority. Most people-

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't like anything in my sphincter. I just did Whalefall, which is about four different sphincters and I was consumed by sphincter talk.

• 53:03Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, save it for that press tour, we'll get there. Uh, what's the wallpaper on- Sphincter talk.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Save it for that press tour.

• 53:10Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 53:12Speaker 02

  The wallpaper, my wife.

• 53:14Josh Horowitz?

  Nice. Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Last-

• 53:21Josh Horowitz?

  Does it ever happen, someone says, oh-

• 53:23Speaker 02

  No, I know, you want this rapid fire, but it's like, last actor?

• 53:31Josh Horowitz?

  Or even back in the day, was there someone you used to always get confused for?

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, Matt Dillon.

• 53:36Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's a long time ago. Oh, Brad Pitt, all the time.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  They go, Brad, I go, no, it's Josh, from no country.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  But they always think I'm Brad.

• 53:54Josh Horowitz?

  No, I would have predicted that. Um, what's the worst noted director has ever given you?

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Why is that a joke?

• 53:59Josh Horowitz?

  It's not a joke.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  It's not a, it's not a nice joke.

• 54:02Josh Horowitz?

  Everyone stop laughing.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  What, what was the next question?

• 54:05Josh Horowitz?

  Worst noted director has ever given you.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  It's something like, this is, if you get an Academy nomination, this will be the scene.

• 54:19Josh Horowitz?

  What do you-

• 54:25Speaker 02

  If anybody tries to get me to do a job and they say this, this one will get nominated?

• 54:32Speaker 02

  I'm out.

• 54:34Josh Horowitz?

  Nope. And in the spirit of happy, say confused. An actor who always makes you happy, you see them on screen, you're instantly in a better mood.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Well, that's a good question. Emily Blunt.

• 54:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, great.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  I would say.

• 54:48Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad, always?

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Makes me sad?

• 54:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  But in a good way.

• 54:53Josh Horowitz?

  However you want to take it.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Ah, 21 Grams.

• 54:57Josh Horowitz?

  Back to Inari 2.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Fucking, super good movie, man.

• 55:00Josh Horowitz?

  People don't talk about that one.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  That's one of those movies that you tell people, it's almost like Dead Man Walking. You go, "Oh my God, you have to see this movie."

• 55:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  And then people call you afterwards and they go, "Why did you want me to see that movie?"

• 55:11Josh Horowitz?

  Seen Requiem for a Dream.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. But sad, that's a different kind of sadness, though. Like, what's a movie that makes you sad, that makes you cry?

• 55:22Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I think of like Terms of Endearment, I think of, um... You know, people always talk about the Pixar films.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Iron Giant makes me cry.

• 55:34Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, films can do that.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  My Iron Giant.

• 55:36Josh Horowitz?

  And a food that makes you confuse Josh Rowland. You don't get it, why do people eat that?

• 55:41Speaker 02

  There's a dessert, and I love sugar, but there's a dessert, it's like a Jell-O top, but it's not Jell-O. It's like, and they're always super red.

• 55:50Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  So it's like a custard, and then there's like a layer of red. And I never understood those. I don't like them, I don't want them in my mouth.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  It's kind of fun, because I just did a thousand mile ride on, with Harley, on Harley-Davidson, old vintage Choppers, with a bunch of guys. And we stopped at this hotel, and it turns out that it's the hotel that The Shining was based on.

• 56:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  Up in Yosemite.

• 56:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  And they had that dessert.

• 56:20Josh Horowitz?

  Did you partake?

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Not, fuck, no.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Keep that thing away from me.

• 56:25Josh Horowitz?

  None of that dessert in his mouth, none of those bees in his butt. Off limits.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  Stay away from my butthole.

• 56:35Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know how we ended there, but we'll end with this. Weapons is a great movie. Zach Craig is a talent, you are as well. This is well worth checking out. It's horror, but it's a lot of other things, too. And yeah, that audience reaction is authentic. I had the same thing in my smaller theater. Congratulations, man.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Thanks, buddy.

• 56:52Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks for the time.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 57:15Speaker 07

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