Surrender to the Process with Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad

On this episode of IMO, musician Jon Batiste and writer Suleika Jaouad join the podcast! They tell Michelle and Craig about the surprising place where they first met, their creative processes, and how they have supported one another through illness. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michelle Obama?

  Well, let's get it going.

• 0:01Craig Robinson?

  So we're here to help.

• 0:02Speaker 02

  Oh, you guys, ooh.

• 0:03Michelle Obama?

  We're all gonna participate.

• 0:05Speaker 02

  A jingle, jangle, jang.

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:10Michelle Obama?

  What you got for us?

• 0:11Speaker 02

  I am O.

• 0:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is I am O. I am O.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Michelle and Craig Show.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  I am O.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  Michelle and Craig Show.

• 0:53Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Theraplu.

• 0:58Craig Robinson?

  How are you?

• 0:59Michelle Obama?

  I'm good, Craig Robinson.

• 1:01Craig Robinson?

  Exciting day today.

• 1:03Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, we, I mean, I want to sort of get right into this day because we've got two guests today.

• 1:09Craig Robinson?

  And you know these two, and I'm just getting to know them, so.

• 1:14Michelle Obama?

  Dear, dear friends, we've gotten to know them, worked, as people might know, that we were co-producers of American Symphony.

• 1:22Craig Robinson?

  Wonderful piece of work, and I'm not just saying that because I'm related to you, but.

• 1:28Michelle Obama?

  Talk about two creative forces in so many different ways. I want to hear about how they met.

• 1:36Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 1:36Michelle Obama?

  You know, so I'm really excited, but Craig, you are always in charge of doing the proper introduction.

• 1:43Craig Robinson?

  Yes, I am gonna do a proper introduction. So Suleika Jaouad is a writer, artist, and author of the New York Times bestselling memoirs, The Book of Alchemy: A Creative Practice for an Inspired Life, and Between Two Kingdoms. She writes the number one literature newsletter on Substack, The Isolation Journals, and in November of 2025, she released The Alchemy Journal, a companion piece to The Book of Alchemy. Along with husband John Batiste, Suleika is the subject of the Oscar-nominated and Grammy-Award-winning documentary, American Symphony. And John Batiste is a seven-time Grammy Award.

• 2:26Craig Robinson?

  Grammy, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning singer, songwriter and composer. His ninth studio album, Big Money, is nominated for three 2026 Grammy Awards.

• 2:39Michelle Obama?

  Just keeps ragging them up.

• 2:40Craig Robinson?

  Including Best Americana Album. In 2021, Batiste released We Are, an album that carried nine Grammy nominations and five wins, including Album of the Year. Batiste accolades also include an Academy Award for Pixar's Soul and seven-year tenure as bandleader and musical director of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. So without further ado, let's introduce John and Suleika.

• 3:12Michelle Obama?

  Come on out.

• 3:13Craig Robinson?

  Come on out.

• 3:14Michelle Obama?

  Welcome to I Am O, my dear friend.

• 3:20Michelle Obama?

  Thank you for being here. You guys settle in. Oh.

• 3:23Craig Robinson?

  Can you squeeze in there?

• 3:24Speaker 03

  We've been looking forward to this.

• 3:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Craig Robinson?

  All the way, all the way.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Thank you, guys.

• 3:29Craig Robinson?

  No, I wanted, I wanted to, uh,

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Be in here.

• 3:31Craig Robinson?

  Put this, I didn't, I didn't know if I should put this in the official, um, bio, but also fellow Princeton grad.

• 3:39Michelle Obama?

  Well, yeah.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Suleika is like a legend on the campus when we went over there. You, you graduated top of your class. You showed them a thing or two.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  It's a, you know, I think we both grew up in households where education was the, the priority. Um, but we also had these, these musical paths. And so for me, I actually did not graduate from high school. I thought I was going to be a musician. Uh, ended up realizing very quickly that that path was not for me.

• 4:17Michelle Obama?

  What was it about that path that made you realize quickly?

• 4:21Speaker 03

  So, the deal with my parents was that I could drop out of high school to go to pre-college Juilliard where we both went. And I had to take at least two days' worth of college classes at the nearby campus in my hometown. And for the first time in my life, I had the freedom to study anything I wanted. And so I was taking classes like Women in Literature and a class on the Bach Off and Modern Dance. And I realized how much I loved the expansiveness of just being able to leaf through a course catalog and get to just imagine all the possibilities. And that music, as much as I loved it, felt narrow.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  And as a bass player and a classical musician, there wasn't a lot of opportunity there for me. So, that's how I ended up making that change, and I'm glad for it.

• 5:17Michelle Obama?

  Can you talk about your childhood, growing up? You have an interesting, eclectic, diverse, multicultural experience. Can you talk a bit more about it?

• 5:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I'm first-generation American. My dad is Tunisian, my mom is Swiss. We grew up moving around quite a bit until the age of 12 and settled in a small town in upstate New York.

• 5:42Michelle Obama?

  What was the reason for the move?

• 5:44Speaker 03

  I think they were both trying to kind of find their place. All of our family is in Switzerland and Tunisia, but the job opportunity for my dad, who was a college professor, was here in the US. And so, I think like a lot of kids who grow up first-generation in an immigrant household, there's the culture you live in at home, and then there's the culture outside of school. So, I remember on the first day of kindergarten, showing up and not speaking a word of English and feeling very much like an outsider. My brother was in ESL in English as a second language.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  And he came home from school one day and said to my mom, "I'm the dumbest kid in my class." And she said, "You're not dumb, you just don't know the language yet." And so, as beautiful and enriching as it was to have this...

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Multicultural, interfaith household. I think as a little kid, all you want is to be normal. You want to fit in. And so it took me a long time to embrace that feeling of being a misfit. But John and I actually met in that town upstate when we were about 12, 13 years old.

• 7:07Craig Robinson?

  This is the band camp, right?

• 7:09Speaker 03

  At the band camp, the infamous band camp.

• 7:12Michelle Obama?

  How did you wind up at the band camp, John?

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Saratoga Springs.

• 7:17Michelle Obama?

  That's up there.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Saratoga Springs is not New Orleans, Louisiana.

• 7:21Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  I'm telling you, it was. I remember going there and I saw someone like wearing Birkenstocks. That was the first time I saw somebody wearing Birkenstocks.

• 7:33Michelle Obama?

  A 12-year-old.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  It was like, dang, this is like very granola, hippie vibe.

• 7:39Michelle Obama?

  I heard about this.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  I heard about this vibe. Interesting. But it was, it was Don McCormick, a family friend of ours. And you know, now it's just somebody so special in our life. But at the time, he was the guy who would come to our high school and scout. Who's the next one? New Orleans always produces these great musicians. Who's the young kid that we should look out for? And he came down one summer. I was in ninth or 10th grade and he came to the class. And they pointed to me and I was too afraid to play because I was very shy as a kid. Even up in the high school, I didn't like to be.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  That's still, that's a whole nother conversation.

• 8:28Michelle Obama?

  We'll get there.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  When we got to the time to play, I said, no, I don't know. So he couldn't pick me because he didn't hear me. And he went, picked somebody else from the class or somebody in the neighborhood. And he came back the next summer and he said, nah, I've been hearing about you for a year. You gotta play. You just gotta play for me. And I played for him and then. I get accepted to this camp. It's the first time I'm leaving home. Seeing something for myself without the influence of my parents or my big sister or my cousins or whatever.

• 9:05Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  It was life change. Camp is a deep. This is a veiled advertisement for band camp. You meet your person and you see the world.

• 9:17Michelle Obama?

  Pretty girl in Birkenstocks.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  I'm saying, everybody. Everybody loves to like. They from the first.

• 9:23Craig Robinson?

  But no sparks there. You just met.

• 9:27Michelle Obama?

  Well, you all were 12.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  I was 12, John was 13, 14. Yeah, no sparks. You were too shy, really, to talk to me.

• 9:35Michelle Obama?

  Was this band camp, was band camp sleepaway? Talk about, were there bunks? Were there bathrooms? Were you all just carrying around your cellos? Or did you swim?

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Were there bathrooms?

• 9:51Michelle Obama?

  A lot of times, they don't, you know, you got an outhouse situation, right?

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Wait, what year is this? I think this is 1940.

• 9:59Michelle Obama?

  Were there bathrooms? Was it a camping experience? Or was it, were you at a school in a, in a, on a college?

• 10:08Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  It was sleepaway, but we were in the dorms.

• 10:11Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  It was like.

• 10:12Michelle Obama?

  Okay, you were in dorms.

• 10:13Craig Robinson?

  There gotta be someplace for the instruments.

• 10:15Michelle Obama?

  No, I don't know. They might have them dusted out by the campfire. I don't know. Just trying to get a feel for that.

• 10:20Craig Robinson?

  She really did graduate from Princeton. She really did.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  You're wrong, you're wrong, Greg. Oh, my goodness.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  For me, it kinda was like that, though. It was kinda like the boonies.

• 10:32Craig Robinson?

  Okay, okay.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  Well, so there was a jazz camp, which John was in. There was an orchestra camp, which I went to.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Ah, I got it, got it.

• 10:41Michelle Obama?

  I got it. So this was a college camp, not like sleepaway camp.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  Sleep in the dorms, no outhouses.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  But I remember John was so shy that I really don't think we spoke to each other. We met.

• 10:57Michelle Obama?

  Cause was he talking to anybody?

• 10:59Speaker 03

  No.

• 10:59Michelle Obama?

  Did you, you just came? What were you doing? What did you think when you got, did you get dropped off? Or were you just given a ticket?

• 11:06Speaker 02

  You know, I've been working. I've been working in the last, we've been talking about this for some years, but I've been working actively to remember the first 15 years of my life. Because it's all a blur.

• 11:23Michelle Obama?

  Why is that?

• 11:24Speaker 02

  I remember certain things. But I think I was doing some processing.

• 11:29Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Some observing.

• 11:31Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Some processing, checking out what's happening. And trying to understand how to engage with the world and engage with my talents and engage with all the things that it felt like every other week I was evolving into something that I didn't even quite know where it was going. So I was trying to figure that out. But what was your, Suleika, on the other hand, was always...

• 11:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, she was always her, this fabulous specimen here.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  It's unbelievable, just always so eloquent and charismatic. I remember she was going through the woods with the Birkenstocks in the bass.

• 12:14Michelle Obama?

  On my way to the outhouse.

• 12:17Michelle Obama?

  Okay, you guys.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 12:19Michelle Obama?

  It's not funny anymore.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  But what I remember about John, he really was in his own world. But that end of summer recital, John played a solo. And it was like the entire audience took in a collective inhale. It was, you'd been playing piano for a year or two at that point, not very long, two years?

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I started at the...

• 12:46Craig Robinson?

  Wow, so what were you, what did you have to play in order for him to hear you? Were you playing a different instrument or were you playing, just playing the piano?

• 12:54Speaker 03

  You've been playing piano for a year the first time he came, maybe?

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so I started going to the New Orleans Center for the Creative Arts, great. You know, a lot of relatives went there, a lot of the great musicians, jazz particularly.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  When I started going to NOKA, I was about a year into me playing the piano. So by the time I was at the camp, I was maybe two years in, I started playing piano. I was 11 or 12 years old. So about 13, 14. I had been playing for about a year or two. And, uh, yeah.

• 13:30Craig Robinson?

  Self-taught or sort of family osmosis?

• 13:34Michelle Obama?

  Well, you come from royalty, New York, New Orleans music royalty. They were pretty solid in music.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Listen, there was a lot of musicians growing up. There's a lot, we were here, you know, my dad was my first musical mentor, but it's actually my mom, who, she's just, she has a clairvoyance to it. She has a deeply dedicated, intelligent woman. But I remember when we were kids, she would always come home with a new offering of tutelage for us to partake in, lessons, tennis lessons, gymnastics, coding. You can go to this chess camp. But you are a piano player, and I'm gonna take you to these lessons every Saturday morning. And if you like it, we can continue.

• 14:23Michelle Obama?

  How does she know you were a piano player? That was the clairvoyance to her. Got it, got it.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  She saw it.

• 14:30Michelle Obama?

  What was it like with your siblings?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  I mean, Suleika is the older sister, and I'm the younger brother.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, it's the great gift and burden of being the eldest.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:42Speaker 03

  That sense of responsibility.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Yes, but it was definitely a reverse of the dynamic. You know, we went to, at the time, there was corporal punishment in our school. And I remember one time, there was a, it was a thing that, something, something happened in the class where I got caught up in, you know, there was a class clown who was my best friend, Keon. And Keon was doing, he would dance like Michael Jackson behind the teacher's back.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  And he would get to a thing. It would be amazing. But then when the teacher turned around, he would, he would always be back in his seat.

• 15:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  And he was doing that once, and he got me to get up and do it.

• 15:24Michelle Obama?

  Oh.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  And I did it, and we got caught. So then they sent us to another class where they didn't have a board handy, I guess, for, for the paddle that we were about to get. So we went to my sister's class.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  And she was sitting there, and as soon as she saw me walk in, she was like, "What are you doing in my class?" And then they lined us up, and her teacher gave us the whack. And I was like, I knew she was gonna go home and say, "You'll never guess what happened at school today."

• 15:57Michelle Obama?

  Guess who I saw?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Guess who I?

• 16:00Michelle Obama?

  Little Nancy Wilson. Guess who I saw?

• 16:05Michelle Obama?

  It was you.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:08Michelle Obama?

  Get your ass whooped.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  They reported on each other.

• 16:16Michelle Obama?

  So this is also a thing about younger, older siblings. You didn't have to talk because other people were talking for you.

• 16:27Michelle Obama?

  You know, that, that may be part of it. I don't know if you found that, Suleika, with your siblings. Did, you know, you had the poise. Did you find that your brother just sort of laid in the cut, as we called it? Because Suleika's gonna figure it out, and I'll just observe.

• 16:50Craig Robinson?

  This episode is brought to you by Theraplu, makers of fast-acting cold and flu relief. Since 2021, Theraplu's Rest and Recover Fund has provided more than $1 million to families to help offset the cost of a sick day. We had IMO listeners share stories about how paid sick time has impacted their lives and wanted to share a few of them with you. Many of our listeners are a part of the sandwich generation, meaning they are responsible for taking care of their kids and also their parents or in-laws. We had one listener share that they have had to take sick time for their own recovery and then also simultaneously care for their grandmother,

• 17:36Craig Robinson?

  which made it hard for them to fully rest and get better. I think this is something we both can relate to with caring for our mom. And even now, for me, that my in-laws are living close by.

• 17:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, that's, that's for sure. I mean, but I'd, I'd say that we are way more blessed than our mom was because we had resources. I mean, this is, I think, what Theraplu understands. I mean, being a part of the sandwich generation, when you don't have the resources and support, means something totally different. We saw that with our mom. Because as many of you know, we lived in our home with our great aunt and, and great uncle as they aged. And our mother was in that sandwich position where we saw her caring for our aunt and uncle as they aged while we were still pretty young. And I just remember those times with her being so exhausted.

• 18:33Michelle Obama?

  Not just physically exhausted, but just exhausted by the worry of all what turned out to be 24-hour care. It is, it's too much for a generation to bear. But thanks to Theraplu and their work, their support out there.

• 18:52Craig Robinson?

  And there's another listener who shared that she is a single mom who doesn't have paid sick time. She said that she has no choice but to work when sick because she can't afford not to.

• 19:03Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, that's, that's for sure.

• 19:06Craig Robinson?

  Theraplu knows that resting and recovering when sick can be especially difficult for parents and caregivers who aren't just responsible for themselves, but also the loved ones they care for. That's why Theraplu remains committed to continuing to fight for paid sick leave for all Americans because no one should have to choose between their health and their job. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at theraplu.com/righttorecover.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  You know, in a weird way, I felt that way on behalf of my whole family.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  I felt like the translator of, you know, this American culture that we were trying to assimilate into. And I felt this maybe outsized sense of responsibility to get everybody on board, as if assimilation was some kind of family project that was going to ensure our safety. So I feel terrible about it now, but my mom, you know, would mispronounce a word and I'd immediately correct her. Or I remember she, you know, she was, she's probably the most thoughtful person I know, but she would make us these beautiful lunches. And I'd get, and she'd write a little note on the napkin.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  And I'd get to school and I would immediately put it to the side and put it in the trash because I knew I was going to be made fun of for our chicken tagine and couscous or whatever it was that we had for lunch that day. And with my brother, he was so shy. He got bullied a lot in school. I felt really protective of him. So I do think in some ways, yeah, that there's truth to some of the things we associate with birth order.

• 21:02Michelle Obama?

  But also the first generation piece of it all,

• 21:07Michelle Obama?

  which, you know, as us American kids growing up in America and as Black kids, we had our own assimilation going on. But you make a wonderful point that you're trying to help the parents who don't know the culture, they don't speak the language perfectly, and you're, you're taking on an outsized responsibility to make sure that they don't stumble or fall or get hurt or get made fun of. And you're just a child yourself in that process.

• 21:38Speaker 03

  I remember keeping lists of vocabulary words that I would learn at school, like American idioms. And I'd write them down, memorize them, practice them until they sounded somewhat natural in conversation. I found one the other day and it said,

• 21:56Speaker 03

  Talk to the hand.

• 21:57Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  L on forward means loser. And it was like a whole sheet.

• 22:03Michelle Obama?

  Wow.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  A little sheet.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  crib notes.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  For myself, exactly.

• 22:08Michelle Obama?

  It's like this talk to the hand.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  Talk to the hand.

• 22:11Michelle Obama?

  Now, how would you explain that to your mother?

• 22:14Speaker 03

  Probably, yeah, yeah, I don't know if I was explaining it to her, but.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  And be like, huh?

• 22:21Speaker 03

  And you know, my, the thing I appreciate so much, and we were both raised by such strong women who I think were really unique to have an example of someone who didn't really care what other people thought. My mom would come and pick us up at the bus stop on cross-country skis, wearing a backwards baseball cap, which, you know.

• 22:44Michelle Obama?

  You guys were just like, I'm not, I don't know her.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  I don't know her. I don't, yeah, please never do this again. And now I just think that's the coolest thing in the world.

• 22:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Oh, that's neat. Serious, making it happen. Come on, living just enough for the city.

• 22:58Michelle Obama?

  There you go. There you go.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Yes, making it happen, you know?

• 23:02Michelle Obama?

  So when, for each of you, do you think, as in your youth, did you break out? When did you feel like, I got this? You know, I'm no longer the misfit.

• 23:16Speaker 03

  I had a really, right before I met you, 12, I went to the movie theater with my mom and I saw this movie, Julia Roberts, it's called.

• 23:30Michelle Obama?

  Julia Roberts.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  Mona Lisa's Smile.

• 23:32Michelle Obama?

  Oh, okay.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  And all the girls on the first day of class had already read the textbooks and they were beautiful and fashionable and cool and more than anything, they led with their intelligence. And I went home and that was one of those like bulb moments you can have as a little kid and the next day I'd been hanging out with these sort of cool kids in my grade who, you know, were in fact now, looking back, not very cool, kind of mixed up in the wrong things. And I walked straight past them in the cafeteria and I went to the library and I found this girl in my class who lived down the block from us, who was top of our class. And I said, can you teach me how to study?

• 24:15Speaker 03

  And I, every day from that point forward, during lunch, sat with this new friend and realized, you know. Being smart is actually the coolest thing that I can do. Maybe not for current me and the school setting that we were in, but for future me. And that's gonna be my path forward.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember the way that you, in that time when we met, felt like the world was open. It was a wide open. You could feel that. For me, I don't... I love the title of your book because for me, it really resonates with coming out of my shallow or not really having one moment, but a becoming. A sequence of a thousand decisions that culminate into this moment and then a thousand more from this moment forward to the next moment. And ultimately, at the center of it,

• 25:20Speaker 02

  a strong intention to do something that's bigger than yourself and to wanna be, to create something that's resonant for people in a way that's profound and is the highest manifestation of your gifts. And moving through the world to the point where I remember the years just before I started doing The Late Show, there were some of the best years of freedom and expression and the possibility of what things could be.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  We had started dating at that time, too. In our early, you know, mid twenties, there was a period where we felt, you know, we weren't making no money, but we felt like we were on top of the world. And I think that might be the moment, I guess. But there's no moment. I can't pinpoint.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I understand.

• 26:18Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, in American Symphony, which was a beautiful, beautiful story, the two of you. But you said something that really struck with me, and I think I knew what you meant, but I'd love to hear from you. You said, "Music is inevitable."

• 26:42Craig Robinson?

  And...

• 26:44Craig Robinson?

  I mean, that show choked me up, the whole thing. Tell me what you meant by that. Because I think I know what you meant. Well, I should say, I know what it means to me.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:58Craig Robinson?

  But I want to hear what you meant when you said that.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  There's a power to what we do. There's a, it comes from the divine stream of consciousness where all creative comes from, and we're the vessel of the creative, put it out into the world. And when we're true to that, there's a purity to that connection. There's a purity to the expression. And each note, and the next note, and the next note, and the next note that comes, it's inevitable. It's the only thing that could have happened. Because we've not tried to change it or manipulate it for personal gain, or to commodify it for efficiency and scale.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  We've not tried to lie. When we hear music, that's why we love it. Because it's inevitable. It feels like life. It feels like divine alignment. And that's my belief of, um,

• 27:58Speaker 02

  with the symphony, but any music that I partake in, I try to make it tuned into that pure source.

• 28:09Michelle Obama?

  Are you too, Sue, like, dealt with a little pushback in redefining yourself? Talk a bit about that, that transition for you.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, I think when you're a kid, there's this notion of a coming of age arc. And when you get to the end of that arc, you'll have answers and certainty about who you are and...

• 28:38Speaker 03

  I'm now of the opinion that life is just a series of coming of age arcs. There's no there, there, where you get to a place and you're like, this is who I am. This is what I'm doing. And if you can surrender to that and enjoy the process of discovery, then it becomes exciting and interesting. So I had a lot of those. When I graduated, I wanted to be a war correspondent. And about a year after graduation, ended up in the hospital and I was diagnosed with leukemia and I stayed in that hospital. That first year, I think I spent about eight months as an inpatient.

• 29:21Speaker 03

  And, you know, those, those moments where maybe you've invested everything into something and it doesn't pan out for reasons that may or may not be beyond your control can, can obviously, you know, leave you feeling defeated. And for me, you know, especially at 22, when you're watching your friends on social media starting careers and traveling the world and getting married and all the other big and small milestones of early adulthood, it's easy to feel like you're uniquely stuck.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  That summer, I started, for the first time in my life, not doing things from a place of self-imposed expectation or thinking about what was practical, but just trying to follow my curiosity, to be, as our friend Les Gilbert says, 1% more curious than afraid. And I started keeping a journal in the form of a 100-day project with my friends and family. And I realized in the course of keeping that journal that I was using it like a reporter's notebook. And that while I couldn't be a war correspondent in the way that I thought, I was reporting

• 30:42Speaker 03

  from the front lines of my hospital bed. And so that ended up leading to a blog, like the good millennial that I was in 2011 when blogging was all the rage. And that led to my, my first time ever being published in the form of a weekly column. And so I think for both of us, you know, We've been the recipient, recipients of great abundance and also great heartbreak and, and, and the work of, of, of learning to, to surf those peaks and valleys

• 31:22Speaker 03

  without letting yourself get stuck in defeat has been, has been our ongoing work. And John's been such a great inspiration to me. I mean, yeah, when we talk about being a misfit, John doesn't fit into a box. He like explodes the box and then draws a whole different shape for himself. And then he erases that and draws a new one.

• 31:48Michelle Obama?

  When did you guys reconnect?

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Now we're talking.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  Exactly. So John was basically doing exactly that when I reconnected with him. I was 16 at that point. It's my second, first month at Juilliard and I saw him on the wind train. I had no idea that he was at Juilliard and he was dancing and singing to himself with big old headphones on and everyone in the subway car was staring at him. Like what is going on with this guy?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  You gotta be who you are, man.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  And I turned to my friend, Michelle, and I said, I know that guy. That's John Batiste from Bandcamp. And then out of nowhere, I said, that's the man I'm going to marry someday.

• 32:41Michelle Obama?

  Really?

• 32:42Speaker 03

  I have no idea why I said it. Didn't think of it again. We reconnected.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  And you hadn't thought of it prior?

• 32:49Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 32:50Michelle Obama?

  You didn't walk out of.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  I didn't think of it after.

• 32:51Michelle Obama?

  You didn't walk out of Bandcamp thinking, ooh, that John, he said not a word.

• 32:58Michelle Obama?

  I felt a thing.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  I felt something with that one.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  No, you were, you were still in your gloriously awkward face. Yeah.

• 33:06Michelle Obama?

  Okay, what was he wearing?

• 33:09Speaker 03

  I don't remember what he was wearing that particular. I remember the headphones. I remember.

• 33:14Michelle Obama?

  Were they a color?

• 33:14Speaker 03

  Converse sneaker era then. You were trying some things at the time.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Oversized suits.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I had three suits.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  Three suits, that's right.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  I would take drawings to a tailor. And they would be like, well, we can't make this, but we can give you the textiles to make it. So then I would get, buy the textiles. And then I would bring them to a tailor that I could afford to make the stuff. And then they started making suits. So I would play shows and I'd take some of the money from the gigs I'd take to the tailor. And I started making my own clothes. So I started making my own clothes and buying Converse that matched the suits.

• 33:53Michelle Obama?

  What colors were these?

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Canary yellow.

• 33:55Michelle Obama?

  Of course, I knew.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  I knew it.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Future pink, remember that?

• 33:59Speaker 03

  I remember. I can.

• 34:01Michelle Obama?

  Why did I know?

• 34:02Speaker 03

  I remember all of them. One had tails on it.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:07Michelle Obama?

  Like tux tails, straight up tails.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:10Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Cloaks, cloaks.

• 34:12Michelle Obama?

  Cloaks, of course.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Don't sleep on a cloak.

• 34:15Michelle Obama?

  No, no, no.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Don't sleep on a cloak.

• 34:18Craig Robinson?

  Really? Because I have been sleeping on a cloak. I have been sleeping on a cloak.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  There's something to it.

• 34:38Michelle Obama?

  So you were in the subway with your... Did you consider this your subway attire? Performance attire?

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Sometimes.

• 34:46Michelle Obama?

  Or were you just going to the, you know, the Dwayne's drugstore in it?

• 34:52Speaker 02

  You know, it was, it was performance attire, but it was more than that. It was a form of expressing the identity that we were discovering in the sound, in the look. And it was just how I was when I was walking around in the world. You know, I remember I would go to vintage shops and thrift shops and, you know, I would put stuff together. And I started traveling, doing some performances.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Where I discovered some tailors from different parts of the world. And they had different textiles and all kinds of stuff you could use. So that was the, that opened up a whole nother thing. But yeah.

• 35:31Michelle Obama?

  And what was the sound at the time? Was it your jazz band? Were you, was it straight jazz, old school jazz? Was it?

• 35:39Speaker 02

  I don't, you know, I didn't have a term for it, so I made a term. I called it social music.

• 35:44Michelle Obama?

  Social music.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  And the band's name was Stay Human.

• 35:49Michelle Obama?

  Okay, yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  So that was the philosophy. And it was a mix of, um, the idea of social music was really music from all of the different folkloric traditions of music before music was commodified. And how do you take all of those different traditions, study and find the different dots that you can connect between them and bring it into the 21st century? So that was my vision. I was lofty.

• 36:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, sure. You still are. That's what makes you beautiful.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  You gotta be yourself, you see?

• 36:26Michelle Obama?

  So you saw this happening on the subway and you were like, that's my dude.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  You know, it was one of those things that you blurt out. You don't know where it comes from. You don't think of it again. And it wasn't until our mid twenties that we really started dating. And it was such a beautiful time in our twenties. And I think, you know, your band name Stay Human is really an encapsulation of what I love most about you. You were just so open and, and, and just so incredibly creative. I'll never forget the first time I went to John's apartment. It was like a sight to behold.

• 37:10Michelle Obama?

  Tell us.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  There were mantras written on the ceiling and on the walls. I remember above his bed, he had written a list and it said,

• 37:22Speaker 03

  Pray, drink water, phone home, have fun. It was suitcases, looked like an airport terminal because he was, you know, constantly playing shows and on the road and would come home and not unpack and have his next suitcase.

• 37:41Michelle Obama?

  Was this in New York?

• 37:42Speaker 03

  In Washington Heights, piles of books. First time I had dinner there, it started to rain and there was a flood of water coming in through the window and I was like, how long has this been going on for? And he was like, since I moved in. And I was like, how long ago was that? And he said, a couple of years ago.

• 38:01Michelle Obama?

  You just let it rain in your house.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  But you were just...

• 38:07Michelle Obama?

  It's fine, it's just water.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  You were just living in the world of your creativity and your determination to do what your band was called, to stay human and to figure out what that meant.

• 38:27Michelle Obama?

  But did he cook dinner that night?

• 38:29Speaker 03

  He did cook dinner.

• 38:30Michelle Obama?

  In his water-filled apartment?

• 38:30Speaker 03

  He did, he made red beans and rice.

• 38:34Michelle Obama?

  You don't remember anything.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  I cooked red beans and rice. It wasn't good then.

• 38:41Michelle Obama?

  Was it, was it good?

• 38:43Speaker 03

  It was, um...

• 38:45Craig Robinson?

  There's your answer.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  I can cook now.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  He's a great cook, he's the cook of our family.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  But I wasn't cooking back then, so it was probably not very good.

• 39:00Michelle Obama?

  But you were dazzled.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  I was dazzled and I was totally befuddled by John. He was unlike anyone I'd ever met. And I remember that first week, we went to a park.

• 39:16Speaker 03

  And John sat me down and he said, what are your intentions? Which nobody had ever asked me before. And, and we had this conversation, it was a couple hours long, where we talked about what it was that was important to us, what the terms of the relationship were.

• 39:35Craig Robinson?

  Oh, I love it.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, just very, like, no games.

• 39:40Craig Robinson?

  Just to get to the point.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Get to the point.

• 39:42Craig Robinson?

  Figure it out.

• 39:42Michelle Obama?

  And what was going through your mind? Did you say Suleika? Suleika, you call her Suleika. Why do you say Suleika?

• 39:51Speaker 02

  That's how I started saying it. And you told me you liked it. So I just.

• 39:58Craig Robinson?

  I love it.

• 39:58Michelle Obama?

  You said, I like it. What were you thinking when you saw her again? I like her. See, now I'll never call you anything else, but.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  I, I was thinking that it felt monumental. Felt like that conversation was like a, a, a major turning point.

• 40:21Michelle Obama?

  How did you guys think about building your lives together? Because by then, you were, you had been diagnosed. You understood the messiness of it all. How did you two, in real time, negotiate that? And how do you continue to negotiate it?

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's in the vows. You just decide that we're in it, however it needs to be set up. And it's gonna be ever evolving. You know, there's gonna be a range of, of different realities that we can't predict. So let's exist with the commitment that we made and move however we need to move, knowing that we're, we're not quitters. It's that's, you gotta know that the person you're with is not going to quit. And if you know that, then the, the logistics, you sort that out. Just gotta know that we're in this.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  And, and that's, that's my true north. And I think we, we've figured out a few different. There's an equilibrium to having this illness and not letting it define, giving it only the attention that it deserves. It's not a defining characteristic of our life. It's just, that's here, okay, and we do what we need to do with that. But everything else is also here.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I think if anything, you know, the illness is just, for us, a good reminder of the one certainty that we all share, which is that we are born and we will die, and we are here for a very short period of time. And so I think it's changed our relationship to time in a way that I'm grateful for and doesn't feel unique to us or to my illness. But that does change the way we move through things. Because, yeah, when you made a vow,

• 42:48Speaker 03

  the big shift for me is, yeah, there's no longer that question of, am I in or am I out? But if this is the person I'm going to be with, how do I move forward as productively as possible? Because we are not only sharing our lives together, but we'd like to enjoy our lives together. And John, really early on in our relationship, had this idea that instead of writing in a journal and doing our individual journaling, we'd write them as letters to each other, which we do, especially when we're apart, when we're both on the road for work. And it was so interesting because there are things that would come up in these letters that would never come up in the quick phone call

• 43:32Speaker 03

  where you're like, how are you? How was your day?

• 43:35Michelle Obama?

  Are they letters, texts, you know, pen to paper? Or any form of?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  We've done pen to paper on the road where you take a picture of it.

• 43:46Michelle Obama?

  Oh, nice.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Or in person, you know, you're writing, and then we trade books, little journals. But, you know. That's letters, it's the spirit of the letter writing. So I think it has to.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  You write it with your hand. It's not a text.

• 44:04Michelle Obama?

  It's a very different thing.

• 44:06Craig Robinson?

  It's not a dictated note.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:14Michelle Obama?

  But like you said, having the time to, the writing part of it, for me, for me, I still write. You know, everybody asks me, what is it? Should we still go high? I get that all the time. I get it now. And I have to explain and re-explain that going high is about communicating with intention and strategy. That doesn't mean you don't feel the emotion, but a lot of times the emotion isn't the truth. So you exaggerate in the midst of the emotion. You always do this. You never do this. You, but when you write it down, you start thinking, well, always isn't actually the right word. Right? Or, you people, you know, that's not really what I mean. Right?

• 44:59Michelle Obama?

  It's the, it's how we raise kids. Count to 10. You know, I mean, going high is counting to 10. You know, and writing in a relationship is like counting to 10. Give yourself a moment to understand what you really feel and mean. And then have that be the source, the beginning of the conversation. Right?

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  Our friend Esther Perel says, what you need to say is not always what they need to hear. And sometimes, like I know for me, I don't even know what I'm thinking or feeling until I start writing it down. And it takes me, you know, a page to get through all the emotions to actually get to the heart of the thing.

• 45:43Michelle Obama?

  Well, that gets us also to journaling, right? Which is your project, your book. So like, would you talk a little bit about what you've produced thus far?

• 45:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I've been keeping a journal my whole, whole life. For me, it's always been this hiding place and seeking place and finding place. And just this daily practice that I do. I know you talk about. Small powers. Just something I do every day. It can be for two minutes, 10 minutes to ground myself, to write my way back to myself. But I found that I was kind of getting bored of the sound of my own voice. And so I started to find ways to prompt myself. So this book, The Book of Alchemy,

• 46:39Speaker 03

  is a meditation on the art of journaling and a synthesis of this approach to journaling. And it has 100 essays and prompts. Do you journal?

• 46:52Craig Robinson?

  So I don't journal by the typical definition of journaling. So I started my professional career in investment banking, sales and trading. So I had to keep a diary every day of what I did. It was really transactional, if you know what I mean. And so I never really journaled my feelings about Craig Robinson.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:24Craig Robinson?

  And now, since my mom passed away, I keep the small little book in my backpack so that when I think of things that remind me of her or the kids do something that I try and remember, I have to write that down. Now I have something, I can write it down.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  I, you know, I'm of the opinion that there are no rules when it comes to journaling. But I know you had a journal that you kept in your twenties during a tumultuous time.

• 47:56Michelle Obama?

  My teens and twenties, I had a journal, you know, sporadic. Barack was a big, big journal. He had, he has a lot of written journals. But what I, what I did do for the White House years, because I knew that this was a unique time, that... And things were, you know, I always say it's like we were shot out of a cannon. And how do you keep track of all of that? And I just literally did not have the time to put pen to paper. But I knew that I needed to capture what was going on.

• 48:35Michelle Obama?

  So what I did do was that I worked with a dear friend of mine, a law school buddy of mine, who was a dean at a law school. We were very close. I trusted her, smart woman. She, a friend, would come in twice a year. And it was a way for us to catch up and stay in touch while I was first lady. But she agreed to interview me. I needed to say out loud some of the stuff that I was feeling. And so she would come in with prompts that were, that she had gathered, watching me and the news and what was going on. And I always would have her talk to my chief of staff and schedule those, just to get a sense

• 49:18Michelle Obama?

  of what literally had happened over the course of that six-month period of time. And then we did a series of interviews that after each one, we got it transcribed. I did not read them over, but it's there. For eight years, we collected the stories of emotions and that, that material became essential when it was time to write Becoming.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 49:47Michelle Obama?

  Because you know how life is when life is moving so fast. Just like you say, you don't remember any of your teens, right? And a lot of that is because you've packed so much life in. And that's what it was in those eight years. I mean, I would look up and, you know, make a comment like, oh, I'd love to go to Prague. It sounds wonderful. And my chief of staff would say, you've been to Prague.

• 50:09Michelle Obama?

  I was like, no, I haven't, you know? I had a discussion with my staff. They were like, you participated in a sit-in at law school. I was like, no, I didn't. And they were like, no, I think you did. I was like, I absolutely have no recollection of taking over the dean of students' office and sitting in. I said, I would have remembered that until they showed me a picture of me. So what, you know, but I had no recollection of it. And I didn't want to go through eight years forgetting really major things.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  Well, and I think so many of us are living in a state of overwhelm.

• 50:57Michelle Obama?

  Well, I think we're grateful for this, this project. And I think this is the best time in the state of the world for people to start journaling. For me, right now, the, the journaling happens through a need to write a speech and to communicate. I find that that's when, you know, I'm putting pen to paper. So I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take on one of the challenges.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 51:27Michelle Obama?

  And see where it goes. As long as Craig commits to do it with me.

• 51:31Craig Robinson?

  Yeah. You know what I'm gonna commit to do is the listener question.

• 51:38Michelle Obama?

  Well, we, oh, yeah, okay, we'll talk about this afterwards.

• 51:43Craig Robinson?

  Post-production.

• 51:47Craig Robinson?

  This question is from Sharon.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  I've lived with multiple sclerosis for 10 years and I worry about the effect that it has on my family. I have a teen daughter who is so supportive of me, but I also am concerned that her needs might be lost in all of this. I definitely want to prioritize balancing my own health, but also carry the load for my family. For Michelle and Craig, when you were growing up, how were you affected by your dad's illness? And if you've ever been sick, how do you build in self-care? How do you prioritize what you say yes to when it comes to family, work, and everything else in life? How do you preserve yourself so that you can feel good about the days you're having with your loved ones? Sharon from Atlanta.

• 52:31Craig Robinson?

  That's a lot there. Meech, I'll let you go first.

• 52:34Michelle Obama?

  Well, how did dad's illness affect me? Because I think we're all individual in the way these things affect us. And I, I wrote about it in The Light.

• 52:47Michelle Obama?

  You know, I think having the father, the center of our household be clearly vulnerable to us, right? Even though he was persistent, defiant, strong, you know, didn't really claim it, never talked about his illness, you know, because I think he was probably trying to project a level of certainty and security that maybe he hadn't come to grips with. So he didn't talk about it a lot, but it was staring us right in our faces, you know? Our father was different, but there was also a sense of vulnerability that you live with

• 53:31Michelle Obama?

  that can make you hold back. But at the same time, I think our parents pushed us out at the same time. I don't think they wanted us to think of the world by their limits, because I think they were limited. From a socioeconomic background, our parents were working class, they couldn't go to college because they had to make sacrifices, they, you know, they had to work and earn a living. So their worlds got smaller as a result, and they didn't want that for us.

• 54:06Craig Robinson?

  I think for me, a lot of that is consistent, except I operated from a place of fear. I was fearful. I was fearful of vulnerability. I was fearful of catastrophe happening in the house. I was afraid of fires. I was afraid. I was always afraid, and I think I operated out of fear. So I was successful out of the fear of not being able to provide. And, you know, this is a great question, because I've never really addressed it, but I was sitting here listening.

• 54:50Michelle Obama?

  You would journal.

• 54:51Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, there we go. Here we go. I know, John. This is the show, man. This is the show. But, and from that fear, I think my parents saw that in me, and the pendulum swung back over. Right. And I think...

• 55:14Craig Robinson?

  While they did push us to do stuff, they were more successful in pushing you to do more than they pushed me because I was reticent. I didn't, I was the oldest. I was like, ah. You know, I almost didn't go away to college, you know? And it wasn't until my dad sort of was like, I'll be okay.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:38Craig Robinson?

  I'll be, I'll be okay because he knew I was always worried about him. And the second part of the question is how do you do, how do you handle your own self-care? For the longest time, I didn't because I was fearful that I'd find out that I was gonna have some malady.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 55:58Craig Robinson?

  And it wasn't until, it wasn't until I started, it's like, we can laugh at it now, but it wasn't until I was in my mid 30s and I started, I became a head coach where we had our own sort of team doctor that I was like, I gotta start, my wife Kelly was, you gotta start having, getting regular physicals. And I was in my late 30s, early 40s when I started having physicals every year. Um, but now I think having children has made me more um, cognizant of being

• 56:37Craig Robinson?

  intentional about my own health in order to stick around for those guys.

• 56:42Speaker 03

  Hmm, right. I relate so much to that. I think, um, you know, when you've had the ceiling cave in on you, you no longer assume structural stability. You're kind of living on fault lines. Um, and that can make it hard to push yourself out into the world. I know that, that for me as someone who has sat both in the caregiver's chair and who's right now, you know, going through treatment. Um, I just finished five days of chemotherapy right before coming here. Um, I have to actively

• 57:24Speaker 03

  Figure out how to be in relationship with the fear that's there because it's there. I've tried ignoring it. I've tried compartmentalizing it. And when I do that, I find it looms even bigger. And to acknowledge it, but not let it be in the driver's seat. And I've had to figure out how to

• 57:50Speaker 03

  to allow myself to do things that feel risky, to say yes to the invitation, to make the plan, even if I don't know I'm going to be well enough to do it, to undertake writing a book that takes two years and you don't know if you're gonna be able to see it through, to prioritize time with friends and family. And so I think, for me, one thing I think of a lot is in periods when I've been at my sickest and I've had maybe only two or three good hours in a day.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  It's been a very specific kind of clarifying exercise in that when you only have two or three good hours, you get really clear about what you want to do in those two to three hours, who you want to spend it with and what's important to you. And right now, I'm feeling good. I have lots of energy. But in the mornings, sometimes I'll think to myself, if there are only two or three things I could do today, forget my to-do list, what is it that would make this day a really good day? And the other thing I do as someone who loves a to-do list, like you,

• 59:16Speaker 03

  I love a list. I'm the person who, at the end of the day, I'll add things to my to-do list that I've already done just so that I can cross them off and feel that sense of satisfaction. I start with, in my journal, I'll start with a to feel list. Before I get to my to do list. And it's just like, whatever it is, I want to feel rested today. And then I write a couple of ideas of how to get myself there. And I actually make whatever that self care is part of the list. And it's attached, the feeling that it produces, not to the, you know, I have to go to the gym or whatever it is. It's going to make me grown and want to avoid it. I'm more likely to get myself there.

• 59:58Michelle Obama?

  Wow, I love that.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Yes, as a caregiver, that's important as well. Caregiving can make you feel the need to, I'm just going to power through. But your body keeps the score. So you know that, well, after a certain point, you realize I have to do something to maintain this role. And you have to make it be something that you're motivated to do. So finding those, those emotions and, not just emotions, but the practice of self care. As same with the craft of making music, I find that there's a practice to self care.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  You gotta, you gotta go in the woodshed, as we say, musicians. You gotta learn what's the techniques.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  And it's very much a shift in perspective. That you don't have to martyr yourself in service of those you love. In fact, that's a disservice to those you love. It's the internal world. What's it feel like in there? Do we need to renovate?

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  Do we need to, maybe we need to-

• 1:01:19Michelle Obama?

  Is there a whole bunch of water coming in your window?

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  It might be a little leak.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Gotta patch that up.

• 1:01:30Michelle Obama?

  Well, I know I did learn that from watching my parents martyr themselves on both sides, mom and dad.

• 1:01:40Michelle Obama?

  I did work, I think I have worked hard as an adult to find that balance, if only to show my daughters a different balance. Because if, you know, I want them to change. I can't show up like my mom, who it's like I'm taking care of everybody and I put myself fifth on my priority list.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Michelle Obama?

  People are okay. They can do, they can do without you.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:02:07Michelle Obama?

  They can.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  And sometimes the best way to care for someone is to model care by caring for yourself. I think about that all the time with you.

• 1:02:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's not selfish or indulgent to take a moment for yourself. It's actually a way of giving permission to the other people in your radius to do the same thing for themselves.

• 1:02:33Michelle Obama?

  John, how are you taking care of yourself these days?

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  And what's on your to feel list?

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  My to feel list? What's on my to feel? I'm in a vibe. I want to be, I want to feel vibey and free. You know, a lot of times we have self-imposed pressure to respond. And that could mean anything. I mean, just to respond, to act versus to just take a pause and sit with something, even if everything is telling you this has to happen now. Everything is in fact totally fine.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  So I'm in a in a very deep, on a cellular level, I've gotten to a place of fortitude in the chaos and comfort in taking the time, exactly the time it needs for me to show up as the best version of myself.

• 1:03:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  And everything else.

• 1:03:39Michelle Obama?

  I like that.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  It continues to run, believe it or not.

• 1:03:45Michelle Obama?

  Feeling the vibe.

• 1:03:46Craig Robinson?

  Well, that's a perfect vibe to end on.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:03:50Craig Robinson?

  Appreciate you guys being here.

• 1:03:52Michelle Obama?

  Man, yeah.

• 1:03:53Craig Robinson?

  It's been fantastic discussion and

• 1:03:55Michelle Obama?

  Thank you for making the time for this.

• 1:03:58Craig Robinson?

  Really, really means a lot.

• 1:03:59Michelle Obama?

  I love you guys. We love you both. Really do.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm grateful to have you in our lives and just to have this beautiful, beautiful opportunity to have conversation and celebrate your great work, my love.

• 1:04:17Michelle Obama?

  Yes, so proud of you, as always.

• 1:04:19Speaker 03

  We're, yeah, it's such an honor for us to get to have this kind of a conversation. It's really such a gift.

• 1:04:28Craig Robinson?

  The honors are ours.

• 1:04:29Michelle Obama?

  Well, everyone, the Book of Alchemy, plus your journal, and I'm getting mine, and I'm gonna challenge myself to start a new journal series for myself. So thank you, thank you for bringing this.

• 1:04:42Craig Robinson?

  She's gonna bully me into doing the same.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  All I have to do is your lists.

• 1:04:47Craig Robinson?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  I like the list.

• 1:04:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Craig Robinson?

  Thank you.

• 1:04:50Michelle Obama?

  Well, maybe you're doing a to-feel list for you, because I want to know what you're feeling.

• 1:04:57Michelle Obama?

  Like, what's on your to-feel list?

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  I feel like you leaving me alone. Just keep it vibing.

• 1:05:04Michelle Obama?

  Keep it vibing.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Keep it vibing.

• 1:05:06Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Craig Robinson?

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