#2432 - Josh Dubin

Josh Dubin is the Executive Director of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice, a criminal justice reform advocate, and civil rights attorney.https://cardozo.yu.edu/directory/josh-dubin Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visible. Live in the know. Join today at https://www.visible.com/ 50% off your first box at https://www.thefarmersdog.com/rogan! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Brother Joe.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  Can see you again.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Nice to see you, man.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  What's happening?

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Everything's happening. I got a lot on my mind. I got notes today and everything.

• 0:24Joe Rogan?

  Beautiful. So, let's kick it off. What do you got?

• 0:30Speaker 00

  No, I was just, um... I was thinking that the more you do this work, the more routine the stories would get, and you would start to see fact patterns and situations repeat. But I'm starting to think the more you do it, the more nutty and bizarre it gets, and you find yourself in these situations where you're like, "That can't be. You gotta check that out." So, I have like, multiple cases going on where I feel that way. And, um... And they range from wrongful convictions to why was this person charged in the first

• 1:15Speaker 00

  place, where you're seeking clemency. I mean, um, yeah, it's a weird world.

• 1:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, your world in particular. The world of wrongfully accused and wrongfully convicted people is one of the darkest worlds in the world, because you're taking away a person's freedom.

• 1:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36Joe Rogan?

  And they do it all the time for corruption. They do it because they're corrupt. They do it because they're dirty. They do it because they want convictions. They do it because they said someone was guilty, and then they just want to fucking lock them up anyway.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  You know, I started to read this, um...

• 1:54Speaker 00

  Malcolm Gladwell just published a new book called Revenge or the Tipping Point? And I'm only like 15 pages in. And the way he starts it out is about, I think, he's gonna come back to it at the end, but I think it's the opioid scandal, he's leaving it blank until the end of the book, about how when they testified, the executives of the company testified before Congress, that they couldn't bring themselves to apologize, or admit that they were wrong, and they keep on using the words, "Our drug has been associated with, associated with addiction," and it's

• 2:36Speaker 00

  almost this, so I'm starting to think that this inability to admit fault, that you're wrong, that you're sorry, it transcends the legal system. And, you know, I'm starting to believe that the cases where these cops are out to frame someone are far more, well, maybe not far more, but they're less common than the cases where law enforcement's trying to do the right thing, and a detective has a hunch,

• 3:19Speaker 00

  and they just get to where they think they need to be on the evidence by following the hunch, which is often wrong. So, yeah, it's a mix of all that shit.

• 3:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and people don't like to admit they're wrong, ever, especially when it comes to something as crazy as pharmaceutical drug company releasing some opioid that's gonna kill a million people. Like, they can't admit they're wrong. They almost have to say things like "associated with," especially during hearings.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, during congressional hearings, I guess there's a lot on the line if there's anything that smells like an admission, right?

• 3:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they can't admit it. They have to not lie, right? Because then they can get hit with perjury. So they come up with different terms, like "associated with."

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I'm interested to see where he goes with it. I listen to his podcast a lot, it's actually really good.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Some of them are good. Revisionist history. Because he's, he's a curious dude, this Malcolm Gladwell. And, um, you know, some of his stuff I agree with, some I don't. But I like that he looks beneath the surface and tries to figure out what is motivating people or what they're tricking themselves into believing. And I just, uh, I was watching this Maniscalco bit the other day and he was like, "Can't you just say I'm sorry?" Talking about his wife. "That's all I want." And him and this dude are going back and forth. I forget the guy's name on the podcast. Some other comedian. And, uh, it, the bit is so fucking funny.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  And, and so I just find myself apologizing all the time. Because what's wrong with just admitting that you're wrong?

• 5:08Joe Rogan?

  Nothing at all. Good. It's actually a show of strength. And people that don't recognize that, they just believe that they're never wrong or that they want people to know they're never wrong or think they're never wrong. So they just don't admit it and they just bury it deep inside.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  But you find yourself apologizing all the fucking time sometimes.

• 5:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  When you're conscious of it. I'm like, damn, I apologize a lot. Maybe I didn't do all this shit.

• 5:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, better to apologize for something you didn't do than to not apologize for something you did.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know.

• 5:40Joe Rogan?

  As long as you mean it.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. You gotta mean it. That, that helps. Meaning it helps.

• 5:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Just saying it just to get it out of a fight.

• 5:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's not good.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  It's not good.

• 5:52Joe Rogan?

  It's not worth it.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just finished, uh,

• 5:59Speaker 00

  I just finished this trial on a case that was super important to forensic science. It was actually the namesake of, of my center, the Pearl Mudders. The Pearl Mutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardoza Law. So Ike and Lori Pearl Mutter's DNA was stolen by a neighbor. And, you know, it's a nutty story. You could read about it online.

• 6:22Joe Rogan?

  I did read about it online. It's crazy.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Fucking crazy.

• 6:26Joe Rogan?

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• 7:08Joe Rogan?

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• 8:22Joe Rogan?

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• 9:24Speaker 00

  And, but I had a, I had an expert, a so-called expert on the stand, and there was an email where they, it was an unaccredited DNA lab. And someone that worked for him gets the results of DNA testing, one round of the results.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  And she says, "The good news is we have a full profile. The bad news is it's not associated with the promoters." And I, and I said to him in words or substance,

• 10:07Speaker 00

  "Why would it ever be bad news for a scientist? If one particular person was implicated in a crime or not, aren't they supposed to just give the facts?" And in a moment of candor, I think it's one of the few times this has happened in all my years doing this, the guy said, "You know, I wouldn't have used those words." And it had no place. And it wasn't an email that he wrote. It was an email that someone that worked for him wrote. And I almost said right in front of the Jerry, "Good for you, man. That's super rare." And, um, I mean, the case is, is, um, I think it's an important one for forensic science because their DNA was stolen at a deposition over some petty shit. It was about

• 10:51Speaker 00

  a tennis dispute in their community. And they're lured to this deposition and their neighbor takes their DNA without their consent. How did he do it? He had, um, he had a former crime scene analyst and some retired, um, deputy chief of police from Toronto, because this guy's from Canada, come down and the former crime scene analyst sits at the deposition and they planned it all beforehand and they made

• 11:36Speaker 00

  sure that they did not handle paper that Ike Pearl Mutter would handle. And they made sure that no one touched this water bottle that Lori Pearl Mutter was going to handle. And they hand him this phony exhibit and they had it worked out before that they would only touch the bottom corner of it. And they have, they have a water bottle sitting in front of Lori Pearl Mutter and they ask questions about this dispute over the tennis center. And, um, you know, when they leave, it was treated like a crime scene. And it was like

• 12:14Speaker 00

  some vigilante justice type of shit where they send all this stuff to an unaccredited lab who then sends it to an accredited lab. And instead of waiting for the results to come in from this accredited lab, the unaccredited lab starts interpreting it and they're having pressure put on them by this man that ultimately accused Ike and Lori of, you know, being involved in this awful crime. What was the crime? All right. So it doesn't make sense without context. So here's what happens.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  Ike Perlmutter is, you know, the former chairman of Marvel. He's very reclusive by all accounts. He and Lori don't have children and they live a very quiet life in Palm Beach. He was an avid tennis player. This is about 14 years ago, avid tennis player. And he became very friendly with the woman that was the tennis pro. She was a single mother. She would set him up with tennis games and he became friends with her. So she sold real estate on the side.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  I mean, this is like a fucking episode of like Seinfeld or Curb Your Enthusiasm at the beginning. Then it like goes off the rails and descends into the depths of hell. So bear with me. Okay. So a man moves into, or a man had been living at, or moves into their neighborhood. And he becomes friends with this other couple who also sell real estate. The wife sells real estate and apparently they approached the tennis pro and they're like, "We should team up on real estate." And she's like, "No, it's just my side hustle. I'm gonna do it alone." So this guy from Canada writes this memo and in the memo, there's all these accusations

• 14:17Speaker 00

  about this woman that she could go to federal prison and she's committing, she could be, you know, that there's bid rigging going on because they never sent her, they never sent her tennis pro contract out for bid. It was just kinda like nutty stuff. Just because she wouldn't go into business with him? I mean, that's our theory. That's my opinion and yeah, that was our theory in the case. So Ike stands up for her. He's a very loyal guy, stands up for the people that he, you know, is friends with. And he thought she was getting bullied. So she sued the guy for defamation and Ike and another resident in this condo complex

• 15:02Speaker 00

  paid for her legal fees. So about a year later, mail starts to arrive in this community.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  And it is the most awful shit you have ever heard and it's accusing the Canadian guy of being a child molester, of being a murderer. It's horrific, twisted, sick shit. So it's about a year after this tennis center dispute and there's misspelled Hebrew words and Jewish stars all over it. So this guy thinks naturally that Ike and his wife are behind it, like they have nothing better to do. All right. So because he's so convinced that they did it and/or that they were involved and he,

• 15:54Speaker 00

  you know, initially suspected that other people might be involved, this guy's going around and swabbing DNA off of, with a Q-tip, off of cars. He's digging through trash in the condo community and he's like on this mission to collect people's DNA. So he calls them to a deposition about the tennis center case and that's where this all went down. So, once they collect their DNA, this unaccredited lab claims that DNA taken off of the hate mail matches Lori Perlmutter's DNA from the water bottle at the deposition.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  The problem was that this unaccredited lab didn't wait for the report from the accredited lab and that run of the DNA that this woman was relying on, the accredited lab discarded it because the man that actually did the test and contaminated the machine. And he knew it, so he didn't rely on it. So, years and years and years go by and well after they knew that Lori had nothing to do with this, in fact, in 2017, a man got arrested in Canada and he got arrested because a package

• 17:14Speaker 00

  got intercepted at Homeland, at the border by Homeland Security and it had samples of the hate mail, latex gloves.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  You know, in the package. And it was a former business associate of this Canadian guy and their relationship went sour. And I thought the case was over. You know, in 2019, I believe the guy gets arrested again and there's a detailed affidavit. So it's clear that this man is responsible for it. So in any event, in 2016, the, I believe it was 2016, there's an article in the fucking Deal Book in the New York Times saying that Lori Pearl Mutter DNA is on that hate mail. And then there's another one in the Globe and Mail, which is a big Canadian paper.

• 18:04Speaker 00

  So it was a defamation case against this guy and against this lawyer for Chubb. Because Chubb helped, this Chubb lawyer, federal insurance, also known as Chubb, helps him draw up the blueprints for collecting their DNA at the deposition. So it was a super gratifying case. We won a $50 million verdict. And, you know, he was found liable for defamation, abuse of process, which is abuse of the legal process. And, you know, it's taken Ike and Lori all of these years to have their name restored in court.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  And they've, they'd kill me if I admitted it and it would be a violation of their confidence and my professional obligation, but they've spent an untold fortune. And, you know, the case is important for forensic science because DNA is supposed to be the holy grail. And you can't have private citizens running around trying to collect people's DNA without knowing what they're doing. You could be leaning on someone and have good intentions to get results. But if I told you, or if I said to Jamie, here's my suspect.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Take a look at these fingerprints and tell me if they match him or her. Or here's my suspect, here's their genetic profile. Tell me if it matches. You don't realize the, I mean...

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Sometimes the error rate skyrockets by as much as 50% with fingerprints over 80%. And fingerprint analysts will agree. And they will say, yeah, I know that that happens. And if someone tells me who the suspect is, and only who the suspect is, and I'm comparing it, I think the error rate goes up, but not with me. Not with me. I mean, again, it's that phenomenon where you just can't think that you would be biased. So, look, the case was super important because I think it, beyond restoring their name,

• 20:24Speaker 00

  and you know, it's the namesake of the center where we do this work, it also preserves the integrity of forensic science and especially DNA, which is really one of the few, um, super reliable forms of forensic science. But even that, when put in the wrong hands, or if it's exposed to subjectivity and people's belief that they have the right person, it's vulnerable. And science shouldn't be vulnerable. It should be, it's either A or B. It's either yes or no, especially with DNA.

• 21:05Joe Rogan?

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• 21:50Joe Rogan?

  Limited time offer, subject to change. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. Can I ask you a question?

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:59Joe Rogan?

  When you said that her, the evidence against her, the DNA evidence had to be thrown out because the machine was contaminated.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:08Joe Rogan?

  How was it contaminated and how did that implicate her DNA?

• 22:11Speaker 00

  So, what happens is, um, when you're, I don't want to go too deep into DNA analysis, but it is actually interesting. When you're conducting DNA testing, the manufacturer of the machine, um, I think it's called the Powerplex Plus, they ask you to run what's called a positive control and a negative control to make sure that the machine is correctly calibrated. Because it's, what it's doing through electrophoresis, um, it's shooting out what's called an electropheregram

• 22:50Speaker 00

  on the other end, so that you're able to, um, you're able to do what they, what they, what's referred to as calling alleles. So you're recalling, you know, a chromosome pairing at a specific genetic marker, right? So, and they called them, there's various different loci, or locations, where there you either have two alleles or one. You get one from your mom, one from your father, one from your mom, one from your dad. And sometimes the one from your father might not show, but your mother's will show, but there'll be two alleles at most at a specific location. So they want to make sure that the machine is working properly, so the manufacturer

• 23:35Speaker 00

  has the lab analyst, every time you do it, run a positive control. Meaning that you'll put a solution through the machine and it should, on the other end, give you very specific results. And he accidentally pipetted or took the solution from her DNA mixture instead of from the positive control mixture and put that through the machine. So when he was running the tests, her DNA is already mixed in there.

• 24:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  But he realized he made a mistake. So when he issued his report, he didn't rely on that run, because when I say run, it's another, um...

• 24:24Speaker 00

  It's another, you'll run the DNA on different occasions and sometimes on different dates because you want to make sure that your genetic profile will never change. My genetic profile will never change. So when you are looking at somebody's genetic profile, it should be consistent. So when he saw that, wait a second, the first run of this doesn't match the second and third or the fourth, he realized he made a mistake. But without having the lab analyst that's doing the interpretation, you know, weighing in on the results and you're antsy to get an answer and you're leaning on an unaccredited

• 25:06Speaker 00

  lab saying, interpret the results, interpret the results, money's no object. There's an email that said that. You know, instead of waiting, she relies on this run of the DNA and, you know, then what happens, happened. But at some point, this Canadian guy came to learn what actually happened and kept on going and kept on going and kept on going. And there was evidence that he wanted hundreds of millions of dollars from my clients. You know, I think what turned out to be a shitty situation for him because no doubt getting hate mail like that has to be disturbing and upsetting to the family.

• 25:50Joe Rogan?

  Did it turn out that he had any sort of relationship with the Canadian man who was sending him the hate mail?

• 25:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was his former, one of his former business colleagues who he had a vicious falling out with and he kept it from everyone. So I think that the inference, in my opinion, the inference is that at some point, and in fact, there's an allegation in the hate mail where it says, you were involved in the murder of these two people.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  He accuses this man in Canada, months after the hate mail began to arrive of spreading that rumor. So I believe that he knew it was him the whole time. And at some point, I believe he was trying to shake the pro-mothers down.

• 26:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  So...

• 26:36Joe Rogan?

  So he wanted money from them, otherwise he was gonna go public?

• 26:39Speaker 00

  And he went public.

• 26:40Joe Rogan?

  Uh, how much did he request?

• 26:43Speaker 00

  You know, look, there's an article in The Globe and Mail, saying that he wants 600 million dollars. There was an article, he admitted on the stand that it was 100 million. His, um...

• 26:57Joe Rogan?

  So he was just trying to get paid?

• 26:59Speaker 00

  His, well, that's my opinion.

• 27:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  That was the jury's opinion.

• 27:03Joe Rogan?

  What's his background? What does he do?

• 27:05Speaker 00

  He was some embattled, in my opinion, an embattled businessman in Canada. He had like a executive recruiting company, but there was all sorts of public information out there that he was, worked on the Toronto Harbour Commission and then been involved in what the press called cloak and dagger campaigns, where he was wasting public funds. So, you know, he bragged about all the lawsuits he's been involved in, so I think the jury saw through it. And, um, you know, look, again, sometimes you become really close with your clients, and that's not always a great thing.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Um, I'm guilty of that a lot, but these are wonderful people, reclusive, they give most of their money away to charity, and to watch these people get dragged through the mud for over a decade, and, you know, there was evidence in the case that, this is interesting. Because I initially fought this. On the day, the first day of jury selection, they had been invited to go to Mar-a-Lago and sit at the president's table for a Halloween party.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  It was just prospective jurors filling out questionnaires. So the defense, and it was really, I think, the attorneys for Chubb, or for the lawyer that worked for Chubb, wanted to introduce evidence. They got photos of the party, and they wanted to introduce this evidence. And there was one day during the trial where they went to the White House because one of their close friends was appointed to be the ambassador for India.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  And they used that against them during the trial, and I fought it tooth and nail. And then I finally said, you know what? Fuck it. I'm gonna let it come in. I stopped fighting it. And I, um...

• 29:11Speaker 00

  I knew that the jurors, on their questionnaire, filled out who they publicly admired most and least. Two of them wrote they admired the president the most. One of them said they admire him the least.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  So I really had to speak to that juror and say, during my closing argument, you know,

• 29:33Speaker 00

  what they're doing here is they're trying to say that Lori Perlmutter's reputation doesn't matter, that she can't emote and suffer humiliation or public ridicule, and that you should disregard her because of who she's friends with, who she votes for, the fact that her husband was, came here, and literally with $200 in his pocket, and, you know, ascended. It's the weird paradox about success. You know, you get there and people are like, oh, these fucking rich people. But these are like... They represent the best in all of us.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  Lori Perlmutter, with her free time, started to work at the gift shop at NYU. And because she liked the feeling of selling flowers and little gifts to people that were going through terrible times. And she ends up becoming a board member at NYU, and they give $50 million to start the Perlmutter Cancer Center. I mean, who among us wouldn't want to aspire to that? And they were trying to say, but she doesn't matter. At one point, she was asked the question... You know, because with defamation, your reputation is on the line, right? And you have to argue reputational damage. And they said, well, isn't your reputation bound up in your husband's? And they said this to a jury of like four or five women.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  And I, I thought, what a dumb fucking thing to say. In my opinion, at least it was like. And I, I was able to say to them during the closing, they're saying she doesn't matter. And that she doesn't, she's not her own person. Her reputation. So it's like these little victories. Um, help restore my faith in the system. Because if billionaires can get awarded $50 million, which is what they got awarded. I think that that's the jury saying her reputation mattered. And not only did her reputation matter, but it mattered to the point where,

• 31:39Speaker 00

  um, you can't just tear somebody down when you know the facts and.

• 31:46Joe Rogan?

  Which seems so insane that he would pursue that. I mean, the guy literally owns the Ike Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice. And you're like, yeah, I'm gonna test that. I'm gonna test that justice and just bullshit my way.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  I mean, the, the irony of that is that the center was born out of their experience in this case.

• 32:08Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, the center was born out of, at one point I was offered this role to start a new post conviction center. Up until four years ago, five years ago, I did work at the Innocence Project. And when I was offered this position at the same law school, a Cardozo Law, where the Innocence Project was born. They said, if you get that role, the Perlmutter's, we're gonna fund it for the first 10 years because we realize that if you're wrongfully accused in this country of a crime you didn't commit, if you don't have the resources to fight it like we did, that you're really in trouble.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  And for them to have that kind of insight while going through this, uh, you know, it's, it's remarkable. I'm indebted to them for life. I mean, they've become like surrogate family to me, but yeah, the center was born out of their experience in this case.

• 33:05Joe Rogan?

  So good came out of it. Does the guy have the money to pay them?

• 33:11Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't know, but I'm gonna find out.

• 33:15Speaker 00

  But, you know, we have post-trial motions that the judge has to decide. And then, you know, once we get, hopefully, we get the judgment entered. Ike is not the guy to pick a fight with. He was standing up for his wife's honor, really. And, um...

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Look, sometimes you pick a fight with the wrong person and you, what do they say, you fuck around and find out.

• 33:43Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of people that fuck around a lot until they find out. And it sounds like this guy might have been one of those people.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't know. I mean...

• 33:53Joe Rogan?

  Perhaps?

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Perhaps.

• 33:55Joe Rogan?

  Allegedly. It just seems like there's people that are involved in conflict their whole fucking life, man. And they never get out of that pattern.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  I don't get it.

• 34:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Unhealthy people. They develop a pattern. They develop a pattern of thinking and behaving, you know?

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Well...

• 34:15Speaker 00

  I don't know if it's the empath in me, but I try to see, like, what are you thinking? Why can't you realize I've, I've gone down the wrong path? Let me course correct. And you just end up with theories. I mean, look...

• 34:35Speaker 00

  I, um, I can understand why a former detective might be concerned about liability, so they can't just say, "Well, here's what I was up to all this time." I guess I can understand that, but...

• 34:54Speaker 00

  I can understand the thinking in not just saying, "I've gone down the wrong path." And some people start to believe their own lies, I think. Some people start to believe their own theories. Human psychology is like...

• 35:13Speaker 00

  It's vast and abstract and so complicated.

• 35:18Joe Rogan?

  And varies, varies from individual to individual. What they can justify, what they can. This episode is brought to you by the mosquito bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galatzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis.

• 36:01Joe Rogan?

  The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, joe rogan dot com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace dot com slash rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Sort of rationalize in their head.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  Look, I told you at the beginning that

• 36:51Speaker 00

  there's only been like a handful of cases where I was like, yeah, that can't be. There's some, there's gotta be something missing from that story that you're not telling me. But wa- watch this.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Two officers in 1998 were on patrol in New York City, in Brooklyn, on Picken Avenue. Gunfire breaks out. And literally, as they're rolling down the street, the gunfire breaks out. One of the officers looks to his left and sees the muzzle flash of the gun that was used to kill this young man, Trevor Viera. He exits the patrol car, draws on the man, and says, "Drop the gun."

• 37:48Speaker 00

  The guy's pointing the gun still, that was used to shoot Trevor Viera. And there's a tense moment. And this officer has testified that there was a 14-year-old girl in the area, or he otherwise would have just shot the guy. So, he literally catches the murderer with the gun smoking in his hand. Why use that expression over the past two decades? "Oh, it's the smoking gun." This is the fucking smoking gun. He finally drops the gun. His name is Eduardo Rodriguez.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  He's put in handcuffs. And, you know, you get documents as you're going through the discovery process during post-conviction. You get it from the prosecutor, from the police. And there's a radio call by a detective that says, "Perps in custody." Contemporaneous with the arrest. They arrest two men. One guy's standing next to him, and the guy that, Eduardo Rodriguez, that shot the gun. He's placed under arrest. He's brought to the precinct. And he is delivered into the arms of no other than one of the most corrupt...

• 39:21Speaker 00

  Sadistic detectives to ever work homicide in Brooklyn, in my opinion, Louis Scarsella. No. Why should that name sound familiar to you or to others? Because Louis Scarsella is the guy that framed Derek Hamilton, who's the deputy director of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardozo. Louis Scarsella and his partner, I think his name is Schimmel or Chimmel, Kimmel, it's C-H-M-I-L.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  These guys were so notorious for framing people for murders they didn't commit, that there have been 21 cases where people's convictions were vacated, where they were the lead detectives. 21. Derek's is one of them. So Eduardo Rodriguez is delivered to the precinct, smoking gun in his hand, and a couple of hours later,

• 40:36Speaker 00

  he's brought to the home of Nelson Cruz, who was 17 years old at the time, 16 turning 17. And it's the story of these cops that while he was in the precinct, that he was yelling and screaming and tearing the place up. I didn't do it. Nelson Cruz did it. He shot him and ran and dropped the gun and I just picked it up. The officer that arrested him never saw Nelson Cruz. He didn't see someone shoot and drop a gun. The story is literally ludicrous.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Nelson Cruz is arrested and charged with murder. So when I heard the story, I was like, there's no fucking way that this is what happened. You're leaving something out. And I then read the trial transcript. There's another guy that shows up at the precinct named Andre Bellinger. And Andre Bellinger says, yeah, I saw Nelson Cruz do it too. And he shows up at the precinct and he's told what kind of gun was used. He's told that Nelson Cruz is the suspect. And then he picks him out of a lineup after being told, we're going to put Nelson Cruz

• 42:00Speaker 00

  in a lineup. All three of those things are gross violations of investigatory practices. And this has been established for decades. So this guy ends up put on trial. And they somehow claim that they don't have, they can't locate this guy that is saying that he witnessed the crime. They can't locate him.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  He's not around to be located. So this, the person who had the gun in his hand, that is shooting the gun, who they believe, who, who says Nelson Cruz did it, at Nelson Cruz's trial, he's nowhere to be found. Wouldn't you think that the prosecutors would put that man, Eduardo Rodriguez, on the stand? So he could explain how he picked up the gun? He could explain, what did you see? You saw Nelson Cruz do this and he ran and dropped the gun? And he's never put on the stand. It's like a three day trial. The only person put on the stand that claimed to have been a witness is this guy, Andre Bellinger. So.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  I mean, some people have like, bad luck, shitty luck, or cataclysmic fucking, um, apocalyptically bad luck, and Nelson Cruz just happens to have, you know, won that shit lottery. Nelson Cruz ends up before a judge

• 43:58Speaker 00

  about eight years ago, and about six years ago.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  And it's a post-conviction hearing. And this guy Andre Bellinger, who claims that he watched Nelson Cruz do it,

• 44:15Speaker 00

  is outed as a liar. There are eyewitnesses that were with him that night, who said, "He wasn't at that murder scene. He was like, blocks away with me."

• 44:28Speaker 00

  He was outed as a liar on so many different occasions, it becomes like, it would become laughable if it wasn't so serious.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  After these post-conviction proceedings, during which 20 some-odd witnesses were called, the courtroom is packed on the day of the decision, because the expectation amongst the press and in the legal community is Nelson Cruz is about to get exonerated. This judge had exonerated people that had been

• 44:57Speaker 00

  investigated by Louis Scarsella. And she's acting kinda weird and erratic. And she rules against Nelson Cruz. And contradicts herself on multiple occasions. And this is in 2019.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  And we later, or 2020, and we later learn, she never takes the bench again. And she resigns because she has advanced-stage Alzheimer's disease.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  I have an affidavit that, from an investigator, that says her husband said that she had been suffering from these symptoms for years before. There was a judicial complaint filed because she wasn't showing up to court. There's a ProPublica article about it, about this whole debacle. And, you know, it's stories like this, and so the Promoter Center for Legal Justice is working on the case. And, you know, thankfully, we're before the Conviction Integrity Unit in Brooklyn, and

• 46:12Speaker 00

  it's led by a really special guy, Eric Gonzalez, who's the district attorney in Brooklyn, and he listens to these cases. He has a real conviction integrity unit. So I'm hopeful that once we present the case to them, that we'll get him some relief. But to think about, he was paroled in 2023. He's a mess. He walks around nervous, he's got terrible anxiety and paranoia. He's a wonderful guy, and he's, he's so stone-cold innocent, and you just wonder how and why this shit can happen to someone. And, you know, it's like the, the perfect constellation of like, you got this, these

• 46:56Speaker 00

  crooked detectives who have already been found to have ruined a bunch of people's lives. You have the smoking gun found in the hand of the murderer, who mysteriously disappears. And if you're wondering, so why, why do they believe this guy? How does he go to the precinct? And he raises hell and says Nelson Cruz did it, and I picked up the gun, even though there's no evidence of that? What would be your guess?

• 47:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's probably some sort of a witness in something else.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  It was pretty well known back at the time that Louis Scarsella, other detectives in Brooklyn homicide and all the boroughs had informants. I mean, that's my best guess. Why else would you just believe? And they've gone as far as to try to discredit their own and say, well, Piatti must not have seen him drop the gun and run. This guy has been consistent throughout. He hears the gunfire looks, sees the muzzle flash. He literally witnesses the murder.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  So, you know, there was an F, there was a joint FBI task force with the NYPD going at the time. So, yeah, they relied on informants.

• 48:13Joe Rogan?

  Where, what's the state of the guy who actually committed the murder currently?

• 48:17Speaker 00

  He's out.

• 48:18Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  He's running around the streets. Who knows where he is?

• 48:22Joe Rogan?

  So if your guy gets exonerated, does this guy get tried?

• 48:29Speaker 00

  No, that very rarely happens. That very, I mean.

• 48:33Joe Rogan?

  So that guy just committed murder and he's free?

• 48:36Speaker 00

  Oh, that's happened. You know how many times that's happened to anyone that's done post conviction work?

• 48:41Joe Rogan?

  So you, but you don't even think that's a possibility. You're, you're just dismissing it like, no, the murderer is going to go free.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Because in order for me to

• 48:56Speaker 00

  expect that that would happen would be to defy logic as I know it in this world. Because think about what happens if a municipality

• 49:07Speaker 00

  admits, we did something horrible and it was a mistake and we did the wrong thing.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  There's going to be a civil rights lawsuit. I mean, look, to Brooklyn's credit with this DA, they have done that and done the right thing. But in terms of then going after the person that they think did it, you know, it's 2000, almost 26 and this crime happened in 1998. It's 30 years later. To be able to reassemble the witnesses and some of whom are probably dead or hard to find. But it's very rare that once there's an exoneration and you're able to point to who the true killer is, very rare that.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Law enforcement will go after the person that defense counsel has established actually did it.

• 50:02Joe Rogan?

  That's insane.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Is it?

• 50:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Because if the defense counsel has ruled that this other guy is innocent and that the police officer did see the guy execute that person, how do you not try that person with murder?

• 50:21Speaker 00

  Now, you're stumbling into the how could that, the how could that bees of our legal justice system. It just, it doesn't happen. I mean, Clemente Aguirre, who I've talked about before, who was exonerated from death row.

• 50:41Speaker 00

  You know, if there's any doubt about this phenomenon of children killing their parents, I think that that was laid to rest a few days ago, it happens. It happens a lot more than was recently publicized. You know, the real killer was the daughter of this, of her mother and her grandmother. Clemente Aguirre gets, you know, charged, put on death row, and in the middle of his retrial, you know, she all but confessed on the stand to me. They have her blood mixed with her mother's blood at the crime scene, and in a trail leading to the bathroom where the killer cleaned up, she confessed on six or seven

• 51:21Speaker 00

  different occasions, not under duress, not to law enforcement, to various people around town. She's roaming the streets. The day that Clemente got exonerated, I, you know, like, I said, you know, I think I might have quoted like Jim Morrison, and I was like, there's a killer on the Rome, and she's in Kentucky, and you better go get her.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  You know, and they were like, ah, objection, you know, but yeah, it happens. I mean, it's my belief that she's, she's stone cold guilty, and they haven't gone after her, and that happens a lot. I mean, look, the word exoneration is thrown around, but...

• 52:03Speaker 00

  It's like Derek's case is rare. He was declared actually innocent. Sometimes the conviction gets vacated. Sometimes it, um, you know, they decide not to retry the person and agree to time served, but you're pushing a massive boulder up a steep hill every time. Like Nelson Cruz should not have to carry this weight around anymore. He's had other lawyers that have done a great job representing him. You know, we've come in now.

• 52:35Joe Rogan?

  How much time did he wind up doing?

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Twenty-six years.

• 52:40Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Yep. Yeah, it's horrifying.

• 52:46Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  I mean, when you've done so much time that you've paroled out and are still trying to prove your innocence.

• 52:53Joe Rogan?

  Jesus. Oh.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  I hate to give you indigestion on a, I mean, but it's, this is like, I'm past tears at this point. I'm, I'm more like, we just gotta keep going and keep fighting. And when you get these little victories here and there, like we've had a few releases recently that were super encouraging, where you're able to get people a second chance, where you're able to, you know, get, get it to the point where they could, even though they didn't do it, plead guilty. We just had a, a release, um, she was actually my co-counsel in the Clemente Aguirre case,

• 53:43Speaker 00

  um, Mari Palmer, and her client pled guilty, but we believe he's innocent. He did it to get out. He had done 24 years and he'd had enough. But for her to get it to the place where he could even plead guilty after serving all that time, you know, innocent people plead guilty all the time.

• 54:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they do, just to get a lighter sentence.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 54:08Joe Rogan?

  It's a dirty business you're in, buddy.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  Filthy. It's filthy. And it's got all these tentacles because if you're doing post-conviction work, um...

• 54:26Speaker 00

  It's not just the wrongfully accused and convicted. It's also, you know, we do clemency work. Commutations and pardons. We, um, you start to wade into the, the human mess. And you see that like, people have made mistakes and are worth a second chance. What they do with it is up to them, but some of the stuff you can't explain. Some of these prosecutions are political.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Look, I'm dealing with a case right now. That's like at the intersection of wrongful conviction and what the fuck are we doing with our immigration policy in this country? And I don't even want to mention his name because I don't want to, you know, or the state because I don't want to sacrifice the good work that we're doing to get him a public hearing. But I can say this much.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  This is a guy from Albania that came to this country in the early seventies and had to sit in a refugee camp in Italy for damn near a month, under horrid conditions, just to come here to try to live a life. He's in his early twenties. He's at a gas station.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  He has a hundred dollar bill for five dollars of gas. He goes into the gas station. The guy takes the hundred dollar bill. He doesn't have change.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  He says, when you get five dollars, come back. I'm going to hold on to this hundred dollar bill.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  And they get into an argument.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  He won't give him back the hundred dollar bill.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  So he leaves and goes to get his brother. And he tells his brother about it.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  They return to the gas station. They have a gun in the backseat of their car. His brother tells him, "You stay here. I'm gonna go in and try to talk some sense into this guy and get your money back and give him five bucks." My client's sitting in the car and gunshots erupt. He goes in the backseat, gets the gun, goes around to the side, comes into the gas station. It comes into the, um, you know, the, you remember back in the eighties where the, you would go in to pay? And there would be like a little, a little front desk area?

• 57:18Speaker 00

  And the gas station attendant is holding the gun and he looks to his left and his brother is bleeding out. The gas station attendant had shot his brother in the stomach. Still holding the gun shaking, he shoots him one time, dead. Shoots the gas station attendant dead. His brother miraculously survives and he's put on trial for murder. And he goes to trial the first time. Remember, he's in his early twenties and it's a hung jury. Most of them are in favor of acquittal.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Goes to trial a second time and gets convicted. The judge must have seen that this was damn near as close to self-defense as it gets. He got sentenced to like four to seven years. He was out in just under four years. He had become an accomplished boxer in prison. He's lived the last 51 years of his life without so much as a traffic ticket.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  He goes to New York, joins the union as a super for buildings. He pays taxes, social security, pays into his pension, builds a life for himself, has five kids, eight grandchildren, and he's living in upstate New York. Leaves the country a couple of years ago to go to Albania to see family. Comes back and gets stopped at the border. Somehow is not detained at the border, but they start removal proceedings on him. Why? Because there is... Is he a citizen at this point? No, he's not, but he's a...

• 59:17Speaker 00

  Does he have a green card? Yeah, he's a green card holder.

• 59:20Joe Rogan?

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• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  He's exactly who we would want in this country. A guy that comes here, and by the way, I want to mention the state. There are self-defense laws that did not exist then. Many states have stand your ground laws. I think under different circumstances, he doesn't even, and if the laws had evolved, he doesn't even get charged. I mean, you see your brother shot, and the facts are not in dispute about this. I've researched it exhaustively. You know, isn't that the type of person we want who has contributed to this society for 51 years and built a family?

• 1:01:20Joe Rogan?

  What happened with the brother and the attendant?

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  They got into an argument, and he called, the attendant called him some slur against Albanians, and they started to argue, and he just shot him in the stomach. There's, this isn't even, it's not in dispute at all, what happened. And there's a law that if you committed a violent crime, you're removable. But for 51 years, he was not removed from this country. And he lived here as a green card holder, and he paid taxes, and he built a family and a life, and now-

• 1:02:02Joe Rogan?

  So this removal was all during the Biden administration?

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  No, unfortunately, it was during the Trump administration.

• 1:02:08Joe Rogan?

  But you said it was two years ago?

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  It was when he was first, when he was first asked at the airport, and they flagged him, I believe it was during the Biden administration, but no enforcement action was taken. It was during the current, and this isn't an indictment of the president, this is just during the current administration that they started removal proceedings against him to try to have him removed from the country.

• 1:02:38Joe Rogan?

  So did they just go through all the old cases and find out anybody that had any sort of a violent offense?

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  I believe, I believe that that's what happened. Nobody knows, but that's what I believe happened. So, again, I made the mistake, or maybe it's a virtue at this point, of getting to know this family.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  And I've met every sibling. There's two boys and three girls and they're literally like some of the most wonderful people I've ever met. I wish I didn't like them as much as I did. And I stay in close contact with one of the, I mean, I guess I could give first names with, with one of the sons, Anthony and his sister Joanna. And to see the love that they have for their father and the fear that they're living under, that this man could get deported and sent to Montenegro.

• 1:03:36Joe Rogan?

  Why Montenegro?

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  Because that's where you get sent if you're Albanian, if you have Albanian citizenship.

• 1:03:45Joe Rogan?

  Why, why there though?

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  I think that that's the protectorate of Albania at this point.

• 1:03:51Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  So, and to watch them, they went to one removal proceeding and the judge, I have the transcripts of the proceeding and the judge is like saying to the prosecutors, at one point he said, what are you doing here? He starts speaking Albanian to my client. And look, I don't know immigration law that well, I'm not an immigration lawyer, but I spoke to the immigration lawyer and he's like, look, I'm afraid that they're gonna take him. I mean, ICE is waiting outside courthouses and they're gonna take this guy, he's in his seventies, take him away from his family and his grandchildren? So again, you don't just see these wrongful conviction cases. You see cases that are like, this man has built a life.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  And if you start to get beneath the surface and you see the pain and agony and fear that people are living, it's, it's, they're living it day to day. We were able to get a delay into February for his removal proceeding. So I'm now trying to get him pardoned. Because if he gets pardoned, there's no basis upon which to remove him. And you know, we have a team at my center that's working on it and you want, these are the kind of people you wanna fight for, once you get to know them. So I, there's like, I don't wanna just...

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  Tell nightmare after nightmare, but the reason why it's important, I think, for people to hear this is it's not just what you're seeing on TV or what you're hearing about. I mean, what basis do we have to remove a grandfather who's lived here for 50 years and contributed to this society and paid his taxes and paid into social security and was part of a union and just like, I'm looking for a flaw. I really am. I'm looking for like, a reason for me not to like them and I just get drawn in more and more. They're just wonderful people and these are the kinds of things that are like, worth fighting for.

• 1:06:00Joe Rogan?

  I think what's going on with ICE is one of the things that's going on with quotas for speeding tickets and things along those lines, is that they have numbers that they want to achieve and they've openly talked about this, that they want to remove a certain amount of people per week. And when they do that, I think everything's on the table. Then they start showing up at Home Depot. Instead of like, looking for gang bangers, looking for criminals and cartel members, they go to whatever's easiest pickings so they can get numbers up. There's, um, do you know Ed Calderon? Do you know who he is? He's, uh, he worked, uh, he was a Mexican military guy who now is an American citizen,

• 1:06:44Joe Rogan?

  but he reports extensively on the cartels and just was telling me some horror stories about ICE raids. And one of them was, they took this guy who'd been brought over here when he was a baby, but didn't have American citizenship. His family, you know, came over here illegally, lived here for 20 years, can't speak Spanish. They deported him, send him to Tijuana.

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  Can't speak Spanish?

• 1:07:11Joe Rogan?

  Can't speak Spanish. Does not speak Spanish. He is essentially an American citizen, he just never lived anywhere else. He just doesn't have the paperwork. He's not a criminal. They sent him over to Tijuana and now he has to live in Mexico. He, he doesn't know what the fuck to do. He's on the streets, has no idea, he doesn't have any money.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, I don't understand. I wish that there was, it's, it's sort of a black box immigration.

• 1:07:42Speaker 00

  In terms of what is, what the policy exactly is? And why do you want to continue this narrative? That seems to be, again, more of a human rights issue than a political issue. Like, what is the end game here?

• 1:08:00Joe Rogan?

  The end game is to get as many illegals out as they can, because so many were brought in over the last four years.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  Well, that's, that's a fair argument. I understand that. But do we want to be getting rid of 70-year-old men that?

• 1:08:17Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  Really, I mean, I gotta tell you, I have an older brother, and if someone had did something like that to him, I can't tell you I wouldn't have done the same fucking thing.

• 1:08:28Joe Rogan?

  Of course. Almost anybody who has family would say that. Go and you see your brother shot, and you know the whole circumstances surrounding it. Yeah.

• 1:08:39Speaker 00

  So I don't, I just don't, and, and it's not, these immigration judges, I've come to learn, don't have much flexibility. You know, they're hard and fast statutes about whether or not someone is considered removable. And, you know, my appeal is really to the prosecutors, like, why are you doing this? But then they're following orders from someone above them that's telling them, this is your case, you're assigned to it, do the best job you can. So that kind of shit just rolls downhill, unfortunately.

• 1:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  And, and you know, I try not to, I try not to wear this, for my own mental health, I'm trying to keep the empath in me in check a little bit more, because...

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  But sometimes it's difficult, like Nelson's case, this case that I'm talking about. And the only reason I'm not using names in that case is I don't want to alienate. There's great people in the state that this happened in, which wasn't New York, that I think actually care and have shown that, yeah, this is, doesn't seem right. And we want to make sure that you get a public hearing. I'm confident that we will before February, and I like my chances if we do, because I think that the story, he's worth pardoning. He's worth saving. But, you know, I don't, I don't understand. I mean, that's what I, what I meant by this human mess.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  It's like, I wish there was a more transparent process of how and why people get pardons. Certainly on the state and on the federal level, I don't get it.

• 1:10:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, the nuttiest thing is that the president can pardon people. You could just decide, because you're the president or the governor, you could just decide, this person, I like him.

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  It's an amazing responsibility. And it's kind of an awesome power to have. And how you go about exercising it becomes challenging, right?

• 1:11:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, it gets real weird. Like, how about during the Biden administration, when some of them, Biden clearly didn't even sign the pardons. It was all auto pen, and he had the most pardons of any president ever. So you have political influence, you have people that would like to get someone pardoned, and you know someone inside, you think you can make this happen. Well, he's pardoning 9,000 people, fuck it, let's just throw that one in there.

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think he's, I don't really know the auto pen issue that well. I don't know if he saw those, didn't see them. I don't know what.

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  It's like organized chaos for every presidency. You know, Bill Clinton pardoned people at the end of his terms that are fucking bananas when you look at them. Biden did it with his son, you know.

• 1:11:58Joe Rogan?

  Biden did it with his, with family members that weren't even accused of anything.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  Preemptive pardon. I don't even know that that was a thing before.

• 1:12:04Joe Rogan?

  It never was. He did it with Fauci. Preemptive back to 2014.

• 1:12:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, listen, I don't, some of the pardons that the current administration issues are like, good for him.

• 1:12:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Speaker 00

  Others are like head scratchers and you're like, what the fuck?

• 1:12:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  But, like, I, you know, what makes

• 1:12:31Speaker 00

  one person deserving and another not is a difficult thing to understand. Like, I have, I've been to the White House, I've advocated for pardons. It's a frustrating experience because you know that there are thousands of people doing the same thing. And you try your best to say, this is why this case means something, but where it goes from there is hard to understand. I think I have tremendous respect for and admiration of the current pardons are, Alice Johnson, because she's been there before. You know, she was actually-

• 1:13:10Joe Rogan?

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• 1:13:56Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:18Speaker 00

  Be incarcerated and pardoned by the president? And she's now in that role as the pardons are?

• 1:15:25Joe Rogan?

  Who was she pardoned by?

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  President Trump.

• 1:15:27Joe Rogan?

  Wow, during his first term?

• 1:15:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:15:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, and she's um.

• 1:15:32Joe Rogan?

  What was she wrongfully accused of?

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  Some drug offense. And she did a ton of time and she's gone on to become this amazing um.

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  Not just human being, but advocate for people to get second chances. And he designated her the pardons are. Now, I think between her and getting to the president and making her case for pardons is difficult because there's layers of influence in between. But, you know, I have, I have cases before them right now that have very prominent people backing them. And, you know, you would hope that they end up, you know, on his desk and seeing, getting some relief.

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  I have one client that I know Mike Tyson has backed him publicly, privately. He was a childhood friend of his. His name is Spencer Bowens. And, you know, he's one of many people that were sentenced under these crazy regimes of like, let's weigh, let's weigh the drugs.

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  So what's heavier? Crack or cocaine?

• 1:16:59Joe Rogan?

  Cocaine.

• 1:16:59Speaker 00

  All right. What's heavier? Heroin or crack?

• 1:17:04Joe Rogan?

  Heroin.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  All right. So they start to weigh, and what's more destructive? Who fucking knows? Crack was pretty damn destructive. And, you know, they, Spencer's been in prison for more than three decades.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  And he would have been out if these nutty drug laws didn't exist. And if they applied retroactively since they have been abolished. And he's a guy that's sitting in there and I speak to, and I start to lose hope. I don't lose hope. I start to feel his hopelessness over the phone because he should have been granted relief in the courts. And he's someone that just really, really deserves to be out.

• 1:17:50Speaker 00

  You know, and I have, there's a bunch of cases like that where we're trying so hard. And you have to, at the same time, at the same time you express, you know, confidence in the people. That are responsible for this stuff. But you also want to make sure that you're not offending them by saying, "Look, I know you have a bunch of cases." Emery Jones is another one. You know, I do a lot of work with Jay-Z's mom and Jay-Z. We have a foundation. I have one and we mentor college students together in the summer, pay for their last year of college.

• 1:18:28Speaker 00

  And Emery is a childhood friend of Jay-Z's and has his full support. Roc Nation, you know, Jay-Z's company, they're behind him. And he's another one that was convicted and spent decades in prison for some drug crime. And he's come out and checked every box. He's a mentor. He's a pillar of the community. He's done so many amazing things, but he's under the weight of this old conviction. And he's denied job opportunities. And, you know, you just, you just got to keep pushing and keep fighting and hopefully

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  your timing is right and you speak to the right person and you get good news one day.

• 1:19:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  But the odds are so, the odds are so, I don't want to say stacked against you, but yeah, it's who you know, who has influence at that particular time, but the right person, the administration.

• 1:19:30Joe Rogan?

  What kind of punishments are there for people like the corrupt guy in Brooklyn that you were talking about? Whatever happened to him?

• 1:19:37Speaker 00

  He's roaming the streets. He's roaming the streets. And, and, look, that's the most, you know, the cop, Louis Scarsella?

• 1:19:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  He denies any, I mean, in the face of these 21 cases that have been vacated, he denies any wrongdoing.

• 1:19:57Joe Rogan?

  So 21 different people?

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  21.

• 1:20:00Joe Rogan?

  He incarcerated them.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know, you know, one of the things that I'm thinking might be a good idea, because we can all go on the internet and look this shit up. Like, if you look up Louis Scarsella on the internet, I bet you there's a Wikipedia page that talks about his corruption and lists all the people. We could all go on the internet. One of the things that I think has been... Underused.

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  And I think should be part of people's calculus rather than reading a headline or listening to me or you or anyone is read the trial transcripts. Make your own judgment. I mean, I don't um,

• 1:20:48Speaker 00

  I don't know what better way there is if you want to say, well, what actually happened? What happened at this person's trial that you're?

• 1:20:57Speaker 00

  And why do they deserve a second chance? Listen, there's, there's a dear friend of mine who runs an amazing organization called the Reform Alliance. Her name is Jessica Jackson. Fantastic lawyer. And I mean, is in, is in the, the, the bowels of the system fighting for change. And right now there's a bill that the president's own pollster, forget the guy's name, has found that 80% of MAGA voters support this act. It's called the Safer Supervision Act. And it, it's actually a system that rewards people for when they get out for doing the right thing.

• 1:21:43Speaker 00

  So that if you want to make sure that you're, you know, when you get out, there are terms of your supervision. How many times you check in with your parole or probation officer? How often are you being subject to drug tests? Is there an end in sight? This act actually is a merit system. And it's heavily supported by Republicans, by Democrats, by everyone in between. And you would hope that something like that would get passed and, and get pushed through because the Safer Supervision Act is a way that we can reward people for doing the right thing and hold people accountable that aren't doing the right thing when they get out.

• 1:22:25Speaker 00

  But, but your question about like, what happens to the cops or the prosecutors that do this? They have immunity.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  To one of the most frustrating things in the world is that most of the time qualified immunity applies.

• 1:22:41Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I could see immunity for a mistake, perhaps, but if there's a pattern and it's clearly corruption and you have a person that is taking away people's freedom, how is there not a crime committed? How are they not convicted or at least charged with crimes?

• 1:23:03Speaker 00

  Well, listen, for those listeners that want to get involved in the process and actually make a difference, you gotta get involved. This isn't just like activist speak. You can make a fucking difference. The person that ends up in a position to actually exercise their executive authority, executive clemency, whether it's a governor or a president, you should be a little more invested. I mean, I had this situation, I gave this guy every benefit of the doubt, and I thought I made a breakthrough.

• 1:23:43Speaker 00

  And this is almost sadistic, I think. And I'm sure I'll get a bunch of hate mail about this and I could really give a shit. I went through this process with Governor DeSantis in Florida, and I think he was actually fucking with me, to be honest with you. And he listened to the case as a favor, and there's a public hearing of the clemency board. And this guy's name is Michael Giles, and again, read the transcript.

• 1:24:24Speaker 00

  As a matter of fact, I brought a passage to read here. This is another mind bender. This guy's in the Air Force.

• 1:24:41Speaker 00

  He is in Tampa. He ends up, um...

• 1:24:49Speaker 00

  Taking leave for the weekend.

• 1:24:52Speaker 00

  And goes up from Tampa to FAMU in Tallahassee. Never been there before. He has a firearm that he's licensed to carry. He actually went into a police station to get his carry license. Military guy, never been in trouble in his life. Goes up to Tallahassee and a massive fight breaks out in this club where they're at.

• 1:25:18Speaker 00

  Literally zero testimony that he has anything to do with this fight.

• 1:25:24Speaker 00

  Fight spills out into the parking lot. And it's being instigated by one guy. And this guy that's instigating the fight was thrown out of the club. And his own friends testified in the trial, "We were afraid he was gonna hurt someone bad." My client, Michael Giles, ends up in a car with the people he came there with, waiting for the person that had the keys to the car to come out and emerge from this melee.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  And this fight is going on all around him. People testified, they were petrified. And he takes his gun and puts it in his pocket. He's standing there, like on the outskirts of this fight, after he gets out of the car and goes to look for his friend that has the keys to the car. The car was left unlocked, but they couldn't leave because there was no ignition key. And he gets sucker punched. And the guy that punched him says, "Yeah, I looked for the first person I could." "Don't take it from me." Here's what he said at the trial.

• 1:26:32Speaker 00

  Here's what he said at the trial.

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  First of all, his friends are testifying, this is from the trial, right? That he was at, that this man was acting quote crazy? That they were afraid he was gonna quote attack someone? He was excited and acting crazy and talking and cursing and upset and agitated? Were you concerned that he was gonna attack someone? Question, answer, yes, I was. Or get in a fight? Answer, yes, I was. That's why I told him to leave. And that's why he was told to leave the club, because he was wanting to fight someone. Isn't that correct? Witnesses testify. Question, you saw Courtney Thrower? This is the guy that punched my client.

• 1:27:24Speaker 00

  Jump on the individual with the plaid shirt, didn't you? The guy with the plaid shirt is my client. Yes, I did. Your testimony is Courtney Thrower leapt and attacked Mr. Giles from the front. Yeah, I was, that was the thing. Courtney then leaps toward Mr. Giles and takes a swing at his face. And it goes on and on and on. That he took a running start, left his feet, and punched my client in the face. And, look, there's a melee going on. So, he's on the ground after getting punched. And, and the person that punched him didn't hold back. He was asked at the trial, question, Mr. Thrower, is it your testimony?

• 1:28:09Speaker 00

  That you ran with your entire body to strike this person? Answer, yes. Question, so you at a full run or a sprint, use the weight of your body to impact this person in the head? Answer, yes. Question, was it your intention to knock him out? Answer, yes, it was. Question, and is there any doubt in your intention? Answer, no. Question, had this person actually done anything to you at any time whatsoever? Answer, physically, directly, no.

• 1:28:45Speaker 00

  Question, was it your intent to hurt this individual? Answer, yes, that's normally what you do when you punch someone. So on those facts, as my client is laying on the ground, and there's a melee going on where people are getting punched and kicked, is he justified at that point to take his gun out and shoot in self-defense? He shoots this guy in the leg, and fragments of the bullet hit two other people. That's the case. That's it. He is sentenced under Florida's mandatory minimum to 25 years in prison.

• 1:29:29Speaker 00

  25 years. He's been in for 15 years. I have gone to visit him. He is the only client that I've ever represented that has never got a ticket in prison. What is a ticket? You didn't listen to a corrections officer when they said get against the fucking wall. You didn't have, you know, you didn't follow the rules, you didn't do that, not a ticket. So various powerful people that know the governor finally got him to listen.

• 1:30:12Speaker 00

  Now, before I got involved in the case, the family was told that the governor was prepared to grant him clemency and traveled to Tallahassee the day that they thought he was going to get released, and were told on that day the governor changed his mind. So I knew this all going in. I went and I appeared at a clemency hearing, and I was as, what do they say? You're, the words escaping me. When you're not subservient, but you're...

• 1:30:57Speaker 00

  I'm trying to think articulated the right way. I mean, I was not only respectful, but you know, I understood the gravity of what I was asking for. This is a governor that has never granted clemency, commuted a sentence to someone that was currently incarcerated. And, you know, he went through a laundry list of things that he would like me to do.

• 1:31:28Speaker 00

  His parents live, Michael Giles' parents live, that's the name of my client, Michael Giles. His parents live in Georgia. Could you, the governor, could you get in touch with the state of Georgia? I mean, this is all at a public hearing, it's online. And see if their governor has any problem with abiding by the terms of release?

• 1:31:52Speaker 00

  You want me to contact the governor of, okay. Submit a supervised release plan that is exhaustive and runs all the way through the term that he would serve out his incarceration so that he should be on supervised release for another 10 years? Contact this one, contact that one. So, I learned on good information that the governor was like, he'll never be able to get all that done. I got it all done.

• 1:32:23Speaker 00

  I had people help me, went to the governor, spoke to the governor in Georgia. I said, "Yeah, of course, we'll abide by it." There's something called the Interstate Compact. States have to abide by each other's supervision requirements when someone goes from one state to another. This had the support of John Ashcroft, Mike Mucat, right-wing Republicans that otherwise wouldn't support this sort of thing. It was like, I had a list of like 40 people, former US attorneys. It got so much that the the head of the Florida Commission of Offender Review.

• 1:33:03Speaker 00

  They gave him a positive recommendation to get out, super rare. The Attorney General was in support. Everyone was in support. A week before, I was told we're gonna grant him relief. They actually had me speaking to the prison to transport him up to the clemency hearing. We were down to whether he would be able to change into a suit. Because at the public hearing, Governor DeSantis said, "I want to actually look at him eye to eye." And at the last second, for no fucking articulated reason, he said, "You know what? I've changed my mind."

• 1:33:47Speaker 00

  That's, that is brutal. It's, it's evil, in my opinion. And it's precisely why, you know, sometimes the king has to show mercy. And it's precisely why this, this guy is not very popular, I don't think. And, and I ask this because it's relevant. Does Michael Giles get prosecuted if he's not a tall, black man? I don't think so. The prosecutor that prosecuted him, I'm not calling him anything, I'm giving you the facts.

• 1:34:26Speaker 00

  The prosecutor that prosecuted him went through a DOJ investigation because something was found in his office targeting Hispanic residents for harsher punishment. A whistleblower took a photo of it. It was a memo hanging over a water cooler. And it's all over the place, it's all online, you can read about it. And he had to enter into some agreement with the Department of Justice.

• 1:34:53Joe Rogan?

  How is it phrased?

• 1:34:56Speaker 00

  How is what phrased?

• 1:34:56Joe Rogan?

  How is this, the determination to prosecute?

• 1:35:00Speaker 00

  If prior criminal history or Hispanic, and then it has an arrow. Oh yeah, you can pull it up.

• 1:35:07Joe Rogan?

  So prior criminal history is the same as just being innocent?

• 1:35:10Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, this is, this is the South. I mean, it's, it's out there, his name is, his name is Jack Campbell. I mean.

• 1:35:21Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy that they would not just, but actually print. Their prior criminal history is equal to being Hispanic.

• 1:35:28Speaker 00

  I don't think it said equal.

• 1:35:29Joe Rogan?

  But it's the same, or Hispanic. There's a, yeah, there's a, there's a whistleblower that took a picture of it.

• 1:35:35Speaker 00

  And then he.

• 1:35:36Joe Rogan?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance.

• 1:36:21Joe Rogan?

  Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time,

• 1:37:05Joe Rogan?

  not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com.

• 1:37:33Speaker 00

  Had to apologize for it. So should the thought enter my mind? Hmm.

• 1:37:39Speaker 00

  I mean, I was putting my daughter to bed one night and I just looked up his name and I stumbled across this and I was like, oh, okay. Cause I spoke to him one time and I asked if he would give a letter of support. And he said, I won't give a letter of support, but I stand by what I did. I said, do you want to know what he's done since he's been in? No, I don't care. Not going to support it. I just won't. Oh, there it is. That's it.

• 1:38:08Joe Rogan?

  If no criminal history, diversion, if limited criminal history withhold costs, if extensive criminal history and/or Hispanic.

• 1:38:18Speaker 00

  Adjudicated guilty.

• 1:38:20Joe Rogan?

  Plus costs and/or extensive criminal history and/or Hispanic and Hispanic is in capital letters.

• 1:38:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and so this, this whistleblower takes a picture of this and it leads to a DOJ investigation where he agrees, he apologizes publicly and he agrees to go into some training program and have the prosecutors that work for him in a training program for racial sensitivity. So you think, you know, I deal with the facts and I deal with what I see every day. So should it beg the question, is Michael Giles getting charged with this crime under the facts as I just told you with the, the testimony that I just read to you? And they said, well, he ran

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  initially. And when the police initially spoke to him, he, he didn't say he shot the gun. He's a black man in America. Later that night, he admitted it. So what does it make a, and what does it make a difference? Anyway, the guy was attacked with a running start. Someone leaves their feet and punches him in the face. Isn't 15 years enough? 15 years? He's had to go through, I mean, you read the letters from his kids who have now grown up without him. You, your heart ends up in, in 50 million pieces. And you know, so a guy like Governor DeSantis, I think it's like.

• 1:39:50Speaker 00

  There's no humanity there. And you know, the craziest part about it is that you never know who you'll meet and why this is all, to me, human rights issue. The only person that gave me a sympathetic ear when I would go to Florida, before I lived there, when I was still living in New York, and talk about clemency cases, was Nikki Fried. I think she was the commissioner of agriculture. And she ran against DeSantis in the last gubernatorial election. And she's like, the fascinating part about it is that this is like a woman that's dedicated herself to public service. And she's a major marijuana advocate.

• 1:40:33Speaker 00

  Legalizing marijuana has been her mission for so many years. She's on the board of Normal. She'd be an awesome guest because she became super unpopular in Florida because of her stance on legalization of marijuana. And, you know, she was attacked over it, about how weed is a gateway drug. Somehow in the minds of, you know, people that don't get it, that it's some like pathway to heroin addiction. And, you know, medicinal marijuana, you know, cannabis for healing, all of those things she's been a major advocate for.

• 1:41:13Speaker 00

  And she told me, "You're being strung along." After she was out of office. She's now the head of the, I think she's the head of the Democratic Party for Florida. Wonderful woman. She's like, "You're gonna get strung along." I said, "No, watch, watch. I'm gonna be the first one to get clemency from someone in prison." And he still can do it. Why won't he? Fuck knows. And it's, you know, I have to talk to Michael's mom. And I have to talk to him and it's like, you know, you run out of words. And yeah, it's not, not just is this a dirty business heartbreaking, you know?

• 1:41:58Speaker 00

  It's um.

• 1:42:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's gotta be particularly hard for you. You are a very sensitive guy. It's which is odd. You're a very empathetic guy, which is odd for a lawyer. You know, usually lawyers eventually develop some sort of a shell. Just don't let enough in. You get hurt too many times, even if you start out empathetic. You eventually develop a thick skin.

• 1:42:24Speaker 00

  I listen, I'm a crier and I don't hide that and.

• 1:42:29Joe Rogan?

  That's why you're able to do the kind of work you do because you still are sensitive to this and you still are empathetic despite all the shit you've seen.

• 1:42:38Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, look, I have to be. I don't think you're good. I used to think that it was something to shrink from. In other words, that.

• 1:42:50Speaker 00

  Because it becomes um. It becomes a heavy cross to bear when you start wearing other people's hurt and emotions and. You know, I, I, I've found myself sometimes. Inferring that people feel a certain way when they don't. And I have to make sure that I'm careful about that. I mean, my son Carter is like, he's 13. He's gonna be 14 in April and I sometimes feel like.

• 1:43:26Speaker 00

  I have to be careful with the empathy because sometimes I'll be reliving some traumatic event from my childhood. And I'll think, oh, he must feel this way at this point in time at 13. And. I'm imputing an emotion to him that isn't there. And sometimes. I'll do that with a client or their family. And I've, I've gotten better at it, but when you have to deliver hard news or.

• 1:43:59Speaker 00

  Bad news. Because there's so many. These, these exonerations, the commutations, the pardons, they're like, each one of them is its own miracle. Each one of them is, it's so hard, so hard to get it done.

• 1:44:18Joe Rogan?

  I gotta pee, we'll be right back. So today, right before we started this, uh, Trump rescheduled marijuana. So it's now schedule three. So it's in the same category as Tylenol.

• 1:44:35Joe Rogan?

  Which is interesting. That's a compromise, right? It should be legal and regulated. That's what I think.

• 1:44:43Speaker 00

  Isn't, isn't there been a stain on Tylenol, though? Under this administration?

• 1:44:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, sure. It's been, acetaminophen is responsible for at least 500 deaths a year. I read a horrible case about a lady who had COVID and she was struggling, you know, in pain, really hurting. Kept taking Tylenol. Tylenol is code, with codeine? Codeine? That's in schedule three. Oh, okay, Tylenol with codeine. Tylenol three. That's schedule three.

• 1:45:11Speaker 00

  That's different.

• 1:45:11Joe Rogan?

  Different Tylenol, different regular, so acetaminophen is.

• 1:45:14Speaker 00

  How do you feel about it being rescheduled as a?

• 1:45:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's better, you know, certainly it's better. Uh, I believe if it's rescheduled, what does that mean? It could be prescribed now, you know, and it can be prescribed, uh, state by state. Even in Texas, there's, uh, some medical uses.

• 1:45:33Joe Rogan?

  I feel like it should be like alcohol. I think, uh, you should be of a certain age to be able to use it. And, um, I think it's not for everybody. I think that's, uh, that's important, that it isn't for everybody. There are people that have very, uh, particularly vulnerable psychological states. Um, mental constitutions, whether they have, uh, a history of mental illness or whatever, especially like high dose marijuana. You know, Alex Ber- Alex Berenson wrote about this, uh, in a book, uh, called, I think it's called Tell Your Children. And he highlights the instances of people that have schizophrenic breaks from high doses of THC.

• 1:46:18Joe Rogan?

  And whether or not they would have had those schizophrenic breaks anyway, you know, we don't know. There's a certain percentage of the population that's just schizophrenic. What causes it? We don't know. Or we don't know clearly why something can cause it. But you should be aware of those things. You know, it's not for everybody. I know a lot of people don't like it. But I know a lot of people who do. A lot of people, it enhances their life. It makes times more enjoyable, makes sex more enjoyable, and food more enjoyable, and fun times with friends. It's like anything else. You can abuse everything, including exercise, you know? And a lot of people are addicted to exercise and they overdo it. And people take CrossFit classes and they go too hard and they wind up getting rhabdomyolysis.

• 1:47:01Speaker 00

  What is that? That's some kind of thing with your kidneys or liver or something?

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. You're literally, your muscle tissue breaks down faster than your body can heal. Rhabdo's dangerous. People die of that.

• 1:47:14Speaker 00

  I remember reading about it when I did CrossFit 15 years ago, whatever it was, and I was like, I'm not going that hard. I don't think I'd get that.

• 1:47:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's for psychos. It's the David Goggins's of the world. You know, I think he got rhabdo, went to the hospital, got out, and then completed his race.

• 1:47:33Speaker 00

  He's not human.

• 1:47:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's a psycho. He's amazing.

• 1:47:39Speaker 00

  I wonder how he runs and speaks at the same time.

• 1:47:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's in insane shape. I mean, he does it every day. He runs 13 miles every fucking day. And then on top of that, he does a series of like very rigorous workouts. He does two or three workouts every day. Yeah.

• 1:47:56Speaker 00

  I mean, he's a fascinating guy.

• 1:47:59Joe Rogan?

  He's awesome. But he's a great guy.

• 1:48:01Speaker 00

  Stay hard.

• 1:48:02Joe Rogan?

  Great human being, though. He really is. He's great to talk to, great to hang out with. I love him. Um, but point is like you can get addicted to video games, you can get addicted to gambling. The gambling thing is a big argument, people use all the time, you know, cause we, uh, one of our sponsors is DraftKings, online gambling. Uh, I think you should be able to gamble. I don't have a problem with it. Me personally, I don't have a problem with gambling, um, but I know a lot of people that do. They shouldn't fucking gamble. You know, gambling is an evil addiction. You watch people get gripped by it. It's kind of crazy. I've known quite a few people that have had gambling addictions, especially from my pool hall days.

• 1:48:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:48:41Joe Rogan?

  I was just always around hardcore gamblers and the boy, man, it might as well be heroin. It might, it might as well be for those fucking people, but I think you should be able to gamble. Uh, I know it devastates some people's lives, but their choices devastate their lives and there's help. And there's, you know, you should learn how to manage your mind.

• 1:49:02Speaker 00

  I think you have to learn restraint in anything.

• 1:49:05Joe Rogan?

  Yes, you can't nanny state the whole fucking world, you know, you can't nerf every hard edge on the planet. It's not how it works.

• 1:49:12Speaker 00

  I love that. I'm gonna steal that. Nerf it.

• 1:49:14Joe Rogan?

  You know, listen, I, I, I do things that you can get hurt doing and I think you should be allowed to do that. You know, I, I know people that have been very badly hurt doing martial arts, including competing. I did a lot of that. You should be able to do it. You should be able to ride bulls. I don't want to ride a bull. You should be able to ride a bull. Um, I think one of the things about being a human being is as much freedom as you can give people, the better. And, uh, also inform them about the dangers of whatever choices they make. Give them an informed ability to make a decision for themselves. This is what it means to be a free human being. And you're gonna make some dumb choices and you're gonna make some dumb decisions and that's okay.

• 1:49:57Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's how we all learn together collectively. And, uh, I think marijuana is far better for you than alcohol. It has legitimate medical uses, legitimate, um, psychological uses. It relieves stress for a lot of people. It's, um, it's, you can't criminalize something for some, something you don't agree with. It's crazy. Also, the LD-50 of it is off the fucking charts. Literally, the only way to die from marijuana is It would take about a 50-pound package hitting you in the head from a CIA drug plane. That's how you die.

• 1:50:31Speaker 00

  What's an LD-50?

• 1:50:32Joe Rogan?

  Lethal dose at 50% of the population. It's very high. So if you're saying like for people's benefit, like if you're saying that marijuana should be illegal because it's dangerous. Okay. Dangerous how? When there's so many things that, like we talked about Tylenol, which I fully support Tylenol being legal. You should be able to, if you're in pain, you can go get some Tylenol. Cetaminophen fucking kills people. You know, like I said, it's responsible for about 500 deaths a year. And I was telling you about the COVID story, this poor lady, she was hurting because she had COVID. She kept taking Tylenol and didn't understand that you just, you can't, there's an amount you can take and you should never take more than that.

• 1:51:16Joe Rogan?

  And she had liver failure and she fucking died. You know, of something that, you know, it's horrible. So, but I think you should be able to take Tylenol, just don't take enough to fucking kill you. I think that's, that should be the case with alcohol, same thing. I'm for legalization of alcohol. When you make things illegal, all you do is prop up illegal people to sell those things to people that want it. There is a demand, they will supply it. You know, this is the situation that we live in in this country when, in regards to heroin, in regards to cocaine, in regards to so many different things. They're being supplied and they're being supplied and you're propping up these illegal cartels and these motherfuckers are killing people and they make it ruthless. It's ruthless.

• 1:51:59Joe Rogan?

  And it's what happened during prohibition of alcohol in this country. What did it do? It propped up the fucking, the mafia and that's what they did. They sold alcohol. It propped up organized crime.

• 1:52:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, we could learn something from countries in Europe that decriminalized not just marijuana, but other drugs.

• 1:52:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:19Speaker 00

  And if you look at the statistics on, you know, the rate of crime, the rate of the incidence of overdose, it plummets.

• 1:52:27Joe Rogan?

  Plummets. Portugal's an excellent example.

• 1:52:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But, you know, the problem is when you all of a sudden make things legal that didn't used to be, that didn't used to be legal, you're gonna have a bunch of people that abuse it. They're gonna, they're gonna say, oh, it's legal now, let's go, and a bunch of people are gonna do it that don't do it. You'll have problems, but you, you know, you have, you're taking the Band-Aid off. You put a fucking Band-Aid on this country in the 1930s for something that doesn't hurt people.

• 1:52:52Speaker 00

  Which is what?

• 1:52:53Joe Rogan?

  Marijuana.

• 1:52:54Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:52:54Joe Rogan?

  They did that in 1930s.

• 1:52:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:56Joe Rogan?

  And there was, it was a vast conspiracy, by the way. The marijuana legalization thing, the legalization of it is a vast conspiracy.

• 1:53:04Speaker 00

  I don't know much about this backstory.

• 1:53:06Joe Rogan?

  Okay, well, I'll fill you in. William Randolph Hearst, who owned Hearst Publications, also owned Paper Mills. So, Popular Science Magazine, on the front page, hemp, the new billion-dollar crop. And the reason why hemp was problematic before that was because hemp fibers. Like, a friend of mine used to grow marijuana, and he had a hemp stalk on his desk, and he's like, pick that up. And you pick it up, and it's hard, like oak. It's, it's hard like this table, this is an oak table, it's hard like that, but it's light, like styrofoam. It feels like balsa wood. I was like, this is crazy. He goes, yeah, it's like an alien plant, there's nothing like it.

• 1:53:51Joe Rogan?

  Hemp fiber is incredibly durable. And it makes superior paper, it makes superior clothing, canvas, all the great paintings were all made on hemp. That's what canvas was made out of.

• 1:54:03Speaker 00

  Light, but very strong and durable.

• 1:54:05Joe Rogan?

  Very strong. The first draft of Declaration of Independence was written on hemp fiber, on hemp paper. So hemp was used to make paper, it was used to make cloth, it was used to make so many different things. But it was very difficult to do. Then Eli Whitney came out with the cotton gin. Well, cotton replaced a lot of the things that we made with clothing, it replaced a lot of that. It was a, it was an easier textile to process. Well, in 1930s, they came up with a new invention called the decorticator. And the decorticator allowed them to effectively process hemp fiber much more easily. So then, Popular Science has this magazine.

• 1:54:40Speaker 00

  There's a, there's a machine?

• 1:54:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes, it's a machine, it's like this, it's like- A steel like cylinder that has all these protrusions on it and that would grind up the hemp fiber more easily. Because before it had to be done manually and it's very time consuming. But the process was an incredible and very superior product. So William Randolph Hearst recognizes this as a threat to his industry. Because he owns paper mills, he owns forests that he's using to make paper out of. Also, you should say that to make paper out of a forest, you have to chop down all those trees, it'll take twenty, thirty years for them to grow back. With hemp, you get a new crop every year. The same amount of land, you're processing four times as much paper and you can do

• 1:55:25Joe Rogan?

  it every year. It's way more effective. So he starts demonizing this plant called marijuana, this new drug. Now marijuana was not a name for cannabis. Marijuana was a name for a Mexican slang for wild tobacco. So he just tags this name and starts calling hemp.

• 1:55:48Speaker 00

  Which is just, just the leaves on the hemp plant?

• 1:55:51Joe Rogan?

  It's just the flower.

• 1:55:52Speaker 00

  The flower on the hemp plant.

• 1:55:54Joe Rogan?

  The flower of the hemp plant, yes. But it's also, you can make and grow hemp that has no THC in it as well.

• 1:55:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:00Joe Rogan?

  I believe it's, is it the female that contains THC and the male doesn't? Anyway. Point is, so he, they sponsor all the Reefer Madness films, you know? All those propaganda films of the nineteen thirties. They start printing these stories about blacks and Mexicans that are raping white women after they take this new illegal drug. So they pass laws on this drug, not even really understanding that they're making the textile, they're making the commodity hemp illegal. Or making it very difficult to regulate. And so William Randolph Hearst gets together with Harry Anslinger and they do this.

• 1:56:42Joe Rogan?

  They also take all their police officers and all the people that they had used to process prohibition of alcohol and go after alcohol, you know, illegal alcohol sales and now they turn it to cannabis. And that's, we've been stuck in that same horse shit. Since the 1930s.

• 1:57:00Speaker 00

  So, self-interest plus profit incentive, add a dose of hysteria, and you have prehistoric lobbying that leads to the demonization of... I don't fucking get it. I mean, listen-

• 1:57:18Joe Rogan?

  It's also nylon. Nylon was involved because, you know, they're using nylon for ropes. Because hemp was always used for ropes, and now they have this new product. So there was a lot of people that were involved in making sure that hemp was very difficult to acquire, so that their commodity could thrive. And then, how many people suffered because of that? How many people were jailed? How many people died? How many, you know, how many people were incarcerated? You're dealing with literally 90 years at this point. 90 years of bullshit.

• 1:57:46Speaker 00

  I don't, uh... And I do believe that there are some drugs that are so addictive that you start to lose your sense of free will. I don't think weed is one of them.

• 1:58:00Joe Rogan?

  It's not to me. I wouldn't say it's not, it's one of them, it's not one of them to everybody. I don't know. I don't know. I hear horror stories about people that are addicted to weed and can't get off of it. You know, I do Sober October pretty much every year. I didn't do it last year. But we take off everything. We don't do anything, and we usually do like a little fitness challenge with it. Uh, I've never had a problem. Stopped doing it. Uh, I got on these nicotine pouches. I like nicotine pouches during podcasts, keeps my mind like popping. It's like, it's a cognitive enhancer. And I was like, man, maybe I'm addicted to nicotine. Went on vacation, didn't bring any nicotine pouches, had no problem.

• 1:58:39Speaker 00

  You know, I'm happy I smoked a lot of weed in high school. A lot of weed. It was different, though. For me, it was, at least. It wasn't as strong.

• 1:58:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:48Speaker 00

  And I've, I've-

• 1:58:49Joe Rogan?

  They got scientists involved now. He's botting us, know what the fuck they're doing.

• 1:58:53Speaker 00

  Scientists. I one time smoked weed with Lennox in Jamaica.

• 1:58:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no!

• 1:58:59Speaker 00

  And, and uh-

• 1:59:00Joe Rogan?

  That should be the song, that's like uh-

• 1:59:02Speaker 00

  By the time, by the time that blunt was being passed around for people, when it came to me the second time, I was like the room went sideways on me. I could not fucking cope. The furniture seemed readjusted. And I've had other times where for me, I got to a point where I could not function on it.

• 1:59:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:28Speaker 00

  Uh, the, and the last time where I was like, ah, this isn't, it's just not for me anymore. Maybe I smoked too much of it in high school. I mean, almost every day. Well, it's- Fifteen, but then I was at a casino. I was at the Aria one time. And this must have been

• 1:59:47Speaker 00

  fifteen years ago. And I was playing craps. And I had I had taken like one or two toques. And I convinced myself that the guy at the other end of the craps table was an undercover officer that was gonna frame me for something. Fucking the lady next to me was stealing my chips. This guy was gonna have me fucking hatcheted. And I ended up in the corner of the casino for literally two hours trying to collect myself.

• 2:00:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:00:19Speaker 00

  And I, and so-

• 2:00:20Joe Rogan?

  You went too deep.

• 2:00:21Speaker 00

  I went, ah, man, I was, I was-

• 2:00:23Joe Rogan?

  It's just too strong for someone who doesn't use it. See, there's, there's a lot of people like, uh, my friend Be Real from Cypress Hill.

• 2:00:31Speaker 00

  I can't, I can't, well, I can't even watch the podcast because my blood pressure goes up when I watch how much weed these guys smoke. Him, him and, and, uh, Everlast and those guys.

• 2:00:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, Be Real lives in the cloud. There's a lot of those dudes, they call it living in the cloud. Like, they're just high all the time. Well, Be Real has his own weed business and I did his show, The Hot Box, where you, you sit in a car. He has this dope, like, car that's set up as a studio. So there's like cameras inside the car and you just get obliterated. Cause they're just constantly smoking in the car. I got out of there, I just sit down for like two hours afterwards.

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  You were okay?

• 2:01:10Joe Rogan?

  I was okay, but I was just like, geez, boys. You guys go fucking far.

• 2:01:16Speaker 00

  But that's the, but the, but the problem is for me with weed is that sometimes I've smoked it and been, I'm talking about as an adult.

• 2:01:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:01:26Speaker 00

  Post thirty.

• 2:01:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:27Speaker 00

  Sometimes I've been like, well, that was really great. And other times I've been like, I don't want to contemplate my existence tonight. I've done that enough. I've done that enough. And, and it's all unanswerable questions and I'm gonna have a panic attack.

• 2:01:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:47Speaker 00

  Man, one time I was on the platform at Penn Station. And I started to like, you know, you get to that point when you're thinking about dying. And we could talk death, dying, and we could say it and talk about it, but I got to that, that point where that fifth dimensional wall crumbled and I was like,

• 2:02:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:08Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, I'm not gonna exist one day. And I started to have a, a panic attack where I had to leave and go up onto Eighth Avenue and get some fresh air. And I'm just like, at this stage, I can't.

• 2:02:23Speaker 00

  I, I would have to be like, so what kind of weed is this? And how do you know? And I don't want to interrogate someone that just wants to get me high.

• 2:02:31Joe Rogan?

  But here's the thing, if you don't get high a lot, and this is my message for everyone out there. If you go months and months and months without ever taking it, one hit, a small one, don't get crazy. Don't get crazy.

• 2:02:42Speaker 00

  What if that one, what if that one hit leads to nine hours of being high?

• 2:02:48Joe Rogan?

  It shouldn't.

• 2:02:50Joe Rogan?

  It shouldn't.

• 2:02:50Speaker 00

  For me it has?

• 2:02:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's like, how much are you smoking? Like, you must be taking a giant hit. And it also depends on like, what kind of joint you have. Like, there's, there's crazy people, like in California, they'll sell you a joint that's like a fifty dollar joint. And this joint has keef in it, so it has all the resin, all the, you know, you give a grinder, at the bottom of the grinder, there's a filter and you have all this

• 2:03:12Speaker 00

  The sticky keef.

• 2:03:13Joe Rogan?

  THC crystals. They take those THC crystals and they put it inside with the marijuana. And then they wrap the outside of the joint and they roll it in the THC crystals. It's like, it's on the outside of it and it's just a pathway to Paranoia, it's just a rocket ship to your your inner monologue screaming in your ear.

• 2:03:35Speaker 00

  I can't talk about it, it's scaring me.

• 2:03:38Joe Rogan?

  But it doesn't have to be like that.

• 2:03:39Speaker 00

  Have you ever got paranoid smoking weed?

• 2:03:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, it's part of the fun. I don't mind it, I like it, because there's always some sort of a revelation that I get on the other end of it. Like, if I'm paranoid, there's always like a reason that there's a thing that's bothering me, like, what is that thing? That fucked with you during that time, and maybe there's a thing in your head that you need to address. But generally, if I'm in a good place and I get high, I feel great.

• 2:04:02Speaker 00

  I must have been in a great place at like fifteen, sixteen years old, because getting high back then and listening to Zeppelin and Pink Floyd and hearing the lyrics for the first time, being like, oh my god, someone else had that thought that I'm afraid to say and they put it down in lyrics, and I'm not alone.

• 2:04:21Joe Rogan?

  And you feel profound, you say profound things that aren't really profound. There's benefit to it, and I I think that when you're young, also, you don't have bills, you don't have obligations, you just have to go to school. Your burden is so much lighter. When when you're an adult and you have a family and you have business and you have things you have to do all the time, and you have conflicts and all the stuff that's in your life, like, it can fuck with you. But I think generally, like, for a lot of people, not for everybody, but for a lot of people, those moments of paranoia of just dropping the veil, it's probably beneficial.

• 2:04:54Speaker 00

  Oh, I think that, I think that in the long run, it opened the third eye of my mind at a time when, and fostered creativity, and I think changed my perspective on the world, smoking that much weed, I just got to a point where it was like, I can't parent on it.

• 2:05:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:16Speaker 00

  For me.

• 2:05:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:17Speaker 00

  You just have to know, you have to be mature enough and introspective enough and self-aware enough to know yourself. For me, it just didn't work anymore, just like drinking. At some point, I was like, it's not worth the fucking pain.

• 2:05:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:30Speaker 00

  It just got too painful.

• 2:05:31Joe Rogan?

  Right, but that's a decision that you should be able to make as a man, or as a woman, as an adult. Make that decision for yourself. Decide what you want to take into your life or not. Including all sorts of other things that are bad for you, like fucking processed food and sugar. Do whatever you want to do, as long as you know what you're doing. And we should educate people on what these things are. And the problem is with marijuana, there were so many years of lies. There were so many years of misinformation, and it was just constantly put out there as propaganda. And, you know, this is your brain on drugs. Like, shut the fuck up.

• 2:06:04Speaker 00

  Well, listen, I remember those commercials from being a kid. And I remember one in particular where there's a father that finds weed, I'm dating myself, in his son's room, and he said, "Where did you learn to do this shit?" And he goes, "I learned it from you, Dad." And I remember thinking, "Man, my dad's a motherfucker. He's a bad guy." Because my dad was a big weed smoker. And I would find it all the time. And I'm telling you, I think in my mind, that commercial led me to thinking, "Dad, you're amoral and, you know..."

• 2:06:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they poisoned a lot of people with those commercials.

• 2:06:41Speaker 00

  But, but you know-

• 2:06:42Joe Rogan?

  Meanwhile, your dad could be sitting there watching TV with a cocktail, and he wouldn't think a damn thing about it.

• 2:06:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, my dad on weed was like an alcoholic with a whiskey bottle. "Oh my god, that's it! That's it!"

• 2:07:04Speaker 00

  Jamie is a fucking wizard.

• 2:07:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's the best. You know what my favorite one, though, is the girl who comes home from school, and the girl starts, and the dog starts talking to her?

• 2:07:12Speaker 00

  Wait, before we get to that, you know how a song or a smell can have you tumbling back in time?

• 2:07:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:18Speaker 00

  I'm like, I'm drunk on nostalgia right now, like, in the wrong, oh my god.

• 2:07:24Joe Rogan?

  This is my favorite.

• 2:07:31Speaker 03

  I wish you didn't smoke weed.

• 2:07:36Speaker 03

  You're not the same when you smoke. And I miss my friend.

• 2:07:41Speaker 03

  I'll be outside.

• 2:07:47Joe Rogan?

  How would you tell a friend, like, who fucking-

• 2:07:49Speaker 00

  Yo, that one is evil. That's-

• 2:07:51Joe Rogan?

  Signed off on that commercial. First of all-

• 2:07:54Speaker 00

  I've never seen that.

• 2:07:56Joe Rogan?

  That girl is not on marijuana. Because if you were on weed and your dog started talking, you'd be like, "What the fuck? You can talk?"

• 2:08:03Speaker 00

  The first thing I thought when that started to roll, I looked at Jamie all wide-eyed, and I was like, "What did you put in my drink? The dog is talking? The only other time I saw that was Mr. Ed."

• 2:08:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, right? Well, or, um, what's that movie? Zookeeper. All the animals talked. It's like, come on. This is fucking ridiculous.

• 2:08:21Speaker 00

  You know, when you peel the layer back, I had never known, um... That one slipped through the cracks on me, the criminalization of weed and the backstory.

• 2:08:32Joe Rogan?

  The backstory is really crazy.

• 2:08:33Speaker 00

  It's crazy, and I remember, I remember a, um... A science teacher in high school telling me,

• 2:08:41Speaker 00

  "You don't think that they can make a tire that doesn't wear?" And he told me the story about how all the big tire companies bought the patent for a tire that can't wear. Right? It has the same, um, composition as, as, uh... Same give and composition as rubber when it came to handling, but, um, it was a material that doesn't wear. And I just thought he was fucking crazy. And now I believe that that's probably true. It's probably locked in a vault somewhere, because what would happen to Goodyear and Firestone and the rest of those tires? You're telling me we could put a man on the moon and hear conversations behind the walls of the Kremlin,

• 2:09:24Speaker 00

  but we can't make a fucking tire that doesn't wear?

• 2:09:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think one of those is true. But the other one, the thing about tires is that a tire has to have a certain amount of softness to it in order for it to have traction. When you have softness and then you have a rigid surface, like asphalt, you're gonna have... Some of that tire is gonna rub off on that rigid surface, because one is hard and one is soft. Just like when you take a file and you rub wood, you're going to make sawdust.

• 2:09:52Speaker 00

  You know- You would know.

• 2:09:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:55Speaker 00

  About fucking tires. Here I go giving an example of something that I think is so out there that there's no way this guy's gonna, and you know about tire wear.

• 2:10:03Joe Rogan?

  I know a lot about tires. Because the softer the tire, the more traction you get on a racetrack. So, uh, with a really good tire, you know, you only have a certain amount of laps on a racetrack.

• 2:10:14Speaker 00

  So the, the science teacher was bullshitting me, basically.

• 2:10:17Joe Rogan?

  The scientist teacher probably was right directionally. That there are things like that where they would hide patents to certain things and, and hide certain compounds. If they found out these compounds would compromise, uh, like, if you had something that people had to buy all the time, like light bulbs, here's a better example, light bulbs. So there are light bulbs that have been in continuous use, like on continuously for fifty, sixty years. And they don't burn out because these are your original light bulbs. The original light bulbs, they made the filaments much more durable. And then they realized like, why would we do this? Well, we could have these light bulbs just burn out and then you have to get a new light bulb.

• 2:10:59Speaker 00

  And the filament would pop.

• 2:11:00Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:11:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:02Joe Rogan?

  So.

• 2:11:02Speaker 00

  I have read about this.

• 2:11:03Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find those old light bulbs. I think there's one that's been on continually for an extraordinary amount of time, decades. Hundred and twenty years. Hundred and twenty years. Let's see that light bulb. So if you look at the light bulb.

• 2:11:16Speaker 00

  Light bulb, huh?

• 2:11:17Joe Rogan?

  And you see the filaments of that light bulb, you realize, oh, they could have just built light bulbs like this from the beginning and instead of paying five dollars for a light bulb, or whatever a light bulb costs, maybe it would cost ten bucks. Got a firehouse in California. The Centennial Light, nineteen oh one. Those, that light bulb.

• 2:11:34Speaker 00

  Look at that, look at that beautiful filament.

• 2:11:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, see how thick those filaments are? So that's a light bulb that's built to last. These motherfuckers, they figured out, well, we'll just make it real skinny and eventually it'll wear out and pop.

• 2:11:48Speaker 00

  That tire patent is sitting in a fucking vault somewhere.

• 2:11:52Joe Rogan?

  It might be, but the problem is it's, it doesn't make sense because it has to be softer than the ground. And whenever you have something that's softer than a very rough, hard surface, the softer thing is gonna give, something has to give. Like if you have metal and you drive around with metal wheels on the asphalt, you know what gives? The asphalt gives. You have scratches on the asphalt.

• 2:12:13Speaker 00

  Let me ask you this. So going back to the weed.

• 2:12:17Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:12:17Speaker 00

  Cause I got us on this diversion.

• 2:12:18Joe Rogan?

  I wanna find out about the tires eventually. Well, I got something for it, but not exactly. Let me just do it now. What you got? It's not full on never. Oh, but this is different. Yeah, no, no, no. It does last way longer.

• 2:12:30Speaker 00

  There's no air in this fucking tire.

• 2:12:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this is an airless tire, but that's, this is something that people have said forever. Like, why would you have to fill up tires? Can't they come up with something where, you know, it just gives? And so Michelin has done this.

• 2:12:44Speaker 00

  You're telling me that there's nothing out there about tires that don't wear?

• 2:12:48Joe Rogan?

  I don't think so. It doesn't make sense.

• 2:12:50Speaker 00

  But watch this. I have a question.

• 2:12:52Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 2:12:53Speaker 00

  So weed is criminalized by some self-interested industrialist, right?

• 2:12:59Joe Rogan?

  Before that, ubiquitous use for centuries.

• 2:13:01Speaker 00

  All right, so.

• 2:13:02Joe Rogan?

  Including in churches.

• 2:13:03Speaker 00

  So cocaine, you can make the same argument for.

• 2:13:07Joe Rogan?

  You could.

• 2:13:07Speaker 00

  And then you have, the Clinton administration comes along and dubs people. So in other words, what is the moral inequivalency between someone that is selling cocaine, a lot of it, and someone that's selling a lot of weed? Now, I understand the common retort as well, cocaine is a lot more addictive, destructive.

• 2:13:33Joe Rogan?

  There's a physical pathway to addiction.

• 2:13:35Speaker 00

  There's a physical pathway to addiction.

• 2:13:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a different kind of addiction. I think there is an addictive quality to marijuana, but I have a feeling it's same or similar to the addictive quality of a lot of other behavioral addictions.

• 2:13:49Speaker 00

  But I guess my bigger question is, so with the advent of the quote-unquote "supercriminal", I think it was, who was it? Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton that came up with this term?

• 2:14:01Joe Rogan?

  Biden.

• 2:14:02Speaker 00

  Or Biden. I know he's a big supporter of that bill as a senator. And, you know, without going down the rabbit hole of private prisons and the prison industrial complex, what bothers me about these old drug convictions that we were talking about earlier is it's just a perspective shift that somehow has in the psyche of America writ large that you hear cocaine or crack equals someone that should be locked away and forgotten about. That was why I mentioned Spencer, Bowen, and, you know, other folks that I've mentioned, because I just, I feel like.

• 2:14:42Speaker 00

  There's no, what's the right way to explain it? There's no rhyme or reason to why we're leaving old people that have not much left locked up. Right. You know, and, you know, I don't, look, Larry Hoover is a good example. Larry Hoover was pardoned, or his sentence was commuted by President Trump. And he was then put in, he was in the side of a fucking mountain for decades. The man is 75 years old. He's been in prison for over 50 years. He has renounced gang life.

• 2:15:26Speaker 00

  He has renounced any affiliation with it. And then he was, his sentence is commuted and he's put in state custody on some old tenuous homicide charge where the person that actually pulled the trigger is out, has been out for like 30 years. So Larry Hoover is sitting there in Colorado because he was in the side of that supermax facility, the side of that mountain in Chicago. And since- Colorado or Chicago? No, in Colorado. Yeah, you said Chicago. Well, he was, then I misspoke. He's from Chicago. He was the leader of the gangster disciples. You're familiar with Larry Hoover, right? Yes, sure. Leader of the gangster disciples in Chicago.

• 2:16:09Speaker 00

  He gets, he's in prison, state prison, then he goes into, while he's in state prison, they have a CCE conspiracy against him and he gets- CCE? Continuing Criminal Enterprise. And I'm talking lawyer speak. And then he, he goes into federal custody and he's put in the side of a mountain where he's on lockdown 23 hours a day for decades. The man's 75 years old now. Since he's been put in state custody, he's had three heart attacks doing prison work. And what is the, what is the utility in keeping someone like that in? Because, you know, Governor Pritzker could just say, you know what, enough's enough.

• 2:16:52Speaker 00

  There's, there's interesting stuff out there about what they call C criminals. So it was like before February of 1978, I believe it was, 1998, where people would get indeterminate sentences in the state system in Illinois. You know, you'd hear these sentences of like 100 years, 200 years where there's no hope. And there were like thousands and thousands of them. There's only 30 of them left and he's one of them. He's got an indeterminate sentence. Isn't 50 years enough? So like, that's another one of those cases that bothers me because,

• 2:17:32Speaker 00

  you know, if we're, if we're a society of, of reform, deterrence, rehabilitation, he's it. And what better message is there to say, you know what? You've done enough and now let's see what positive you can do. The proposed terms of his release are like the strictest supervision. He just wants to live out his life with his, his family. He's got a great lawyer backing him named Justin Moore. I helped, you know, advocate for his pardon to President Trump.

• 2:18:04Joe Rogan?

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• 2:19:31Joe Rogan?

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• 2:19:52Joe Rogan?

  He's, he was pardoned?

• 2:19:54Speaker 00

  His sentence was commuted by President Trump, his federal sentence.

• 2:19:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:59Speaker 00

  But he had some crazy 200-year sentence in state court. Right? Oh, look at this is it. So it was 1978. He's one of just 35 people still incarcerated under Illinois's pre-78 indeterminate sentencing system.

• 2:20:17Joe Rogan?

  So the case was from 73?

• 2:20:19Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, he's been in prison for 50 some odd years. And, you know, I just feel like, at this point, isn't enough enough? And, you know,

• 2:20:29Joe Rogan?

  But he didn't even do the killing.

• 2:20:30Speaker 00

  No. And the person that did it is out. The allegation was that he ordered it, and I don't even believe that.

• 2:20:37Joe Rogan?

  And Andrew Howard, the guy who killed him, was paroled more than 30 years ago.

• 2:20:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. It just doesn't, I don't understand. And what, what, what's going on, I think, is that someone like Governor Pritzker is just, they don't want the political cost

• 2:20:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:20:51Speaker 00

  of, of taking a chance like this. And, you know, this is another one that keeps me up. You know, some people would say, why care about that guy? Because I know his wife. I know his son.

• 2:21:06Speaker 00

  James Prince knows the family so well and has supported them on this journey for over a decade. There's so much public support for this. The guy's 75. So why are we wasting taxpayer money? And why are we keeping someone incarcerated? I mean, in the most...

• 2:21:24Joe Rogan?

  So I don't understand if they commuted his sentence, how he's not, how he's not out.

• 2:21:28Speaker 00

  He was, his federal sentence was commuted. So as soon as he was released from federal custody, he was taken into state custody. And they didn't even take him from Chicag- Chicago, excuse me, from Colorado. His state sentence is in Chicago, where he could be at least closer to his family. And Colorado state system said, we'll keep him here. So he was transferred from federal to state custody. So that's one that's just like, you know, there's one heartbreak to the next. And I, and look, I'm super, super, super careful. You can help people with second chances. You can't help them with what they do with it.

• 2:22:10Speaker 00

  But I, I'm now at a point where I really want to think long and hard about what people do with their second chances. And, you know, I just wouldn't get behind someone that I didn't think was, I just, it, it's an indictment of society that we have these disparate sentences that are doled out. And, and a lot of it is driven by what is considered worse behavior. Is it worse behavior that you sold cocaine or marijuana? I guess the argument is that cocaine was more destructive, more addictive, you could die from it. Well, same thing with alcohol. And alcohol's legal.

• 2:22:48Speaker 00

  So I just don't, I have a hard time grappling with what is considered a controlled substance.

• 2:22:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:57Speaker 00

  Because alcohol, if abused... If put in the wrong hands, it's highly addictive, highly destructive to your body if you abuse it, ruins people's lives. I mean, how is it that alcohol is legal?

• 2:23:12Joe Rogan?

  It is weird. It is weird. And the real problem is history. So we have a long history of all these drugs being illegal now. So you have a long history of people that are criminals selling these drugs. So it's got this criminal history attached to it. If you were to make cocaine legal in the United States, you'd essentially put the cartels out of business, right? Because that's probably their main business, is probably either fentanyl and heroin, or heroin pills, you know, oxy pills, or cocaine. And you would have way less accidental overdose deaths, because a lot of it is not people overdosing from actual cocaine, it's getting fentanyl.

• 2:23:56Speaker 00

  Or whatever, or whatever else they're fucking mixing it with.

• 2:23:59Joe Rogan?

  All sorts of different amphetamines. We have a long history now, dating back to the 30s, of alcohol being legal. People are accustomed to it. It's normal. They're accustomed to growing up, being able to have a couple of beers with your friends, going to a party when you're a kid, there's a keg party. People know how to handle it. It's been around. Cocaine has not. You get scared. What's in it? How do I know where it came from? You know, you get a fucking beer, you know it's a beer. You crack open a Bud Light, it's a Bud Light. It's what it is. Cocaine is unregulated. It's crazy.

• 2:24:38Speaker 00

  If you think about it, if you're, if you're someone doing cocaine these days, and you're trying to think like, am I gonna die?

• 2:24:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:45Speaker 00

  You dip a, what are they, fentanyl strips that you can test it and see what's in it, but... If it was regulated and if people want to do it.

• 2:24:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:54Speaker 00

  You know, let them go bang their head against the wall and do it.

• 2:24:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then the problem is people would be profiting off of that. And then so you'd have, instead of, you know, no one has a problem with Anheuser-Busch selling beer. Right, but meanwhile, there's alcoholics and it's going to ruin their life. But if Anheuser-Busch all of a sudden started selling cocaine, the social stigma that's attached to it because of all the years of it being illegal would be a real problem. Um, we would have, like I said, it would be like ripping the Band-Aid off. You're gonna have a lot of problems initially, for quite a while, I would imagine. There's gonna be a lot of people that do cocaine that would never do it previously because it was illegal. But if they found out that there's, you can go to the cocaine store and buy a certain amount of cocaine and go do it. But you also would be getting pure cocaine.

• 2:25:42Joe Rogan?

  So you'd be getting this experience that people have used way back to the fucking, you know, who knows what time, I mean, there's Egyptian mummies that have tested positive for cocaine.

• 2:25:52Speaker 00

  I, I mean, look, I don't, I'm not, yeah, I'm not advocating for it one way or another. It just seems like anything that I've looked into and read about in countries that have legalized.

• 2:26:05Joe Rogan?

  Or decriminalized.

• 2:26:06Speaker 00

  Or decriminalized it at least, and you could get it and not have to worry about it being adulterated in some way. It seems like the statistics are overwhelmingly.

• 2:26:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:26:15Speaker 00

  Pointing in one direction.

• 2:26:16Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent, but those are smaller countries, you know, and it don't have the, the consumption problem that America has. We, we uniquely love to consume drugs. And, um, we are propping up the cartel by doing that. And that, you know, if you want to go to war with the cartel, if you want to really stop the, the flood of illegal drugs in this country. Unfortunately, one of the only ways to, to really do that accurately is to both stop them from bringing in illegal drugs and then give people access to legal, air quotes, safer drugs.

• 2:26:52Speaker 00

  Seems like a...

• 2:26:53Joe Rogan?

  It's a problem.

• 2:26:54Speaker 00

  It's a...

• 2:26:54Joe Rogan?

  Politically, it's a suicide.

• 2:26:56Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, you gotta swim uphill through... Or upstream through a river of shit.

• 2:27:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:03Speaker 00

  In order to pull that one off.

• 2:27:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for a long time.

• 2:27:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I just, um... This has struck me more lately in dealing with these old drug cases. Where these people have spent decades and decades in prison and know... You know, you hear them on the other end of the phone and he's like, "Look, I was a kid. I was in my twenties. I'm fifty. I'm sixty years old. Isn't it enough?" It's getting to the point where it's putative to the point of harmful and barbaric.

• 2:27:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then they don't want to let those people back out on the street. It's more convenient for them to keep that person locked up forever.

• 2:27:40Speaker 00

  You know, and you gotta... If you saw like what's behind it, you know, this is an interesting update on the Ohio four case. And we don't have to go back into the whole thing again because people could watch the last time. But you remember we had the former prosecutor JD Tomlinson on at one point with the case in Ohio?

• 2:28:00Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:28:01Speaker 00

  Where these guys did not need to assume the burden of being demonstrably innocent, but we were able to prove it. And, you know, JD Tomlinson agreed to vacate their convictions. And then when he left office, you know, a few weeks later, the new, the incoming, their equivalent of the district attorney overturned it, right? Since coming on this show, JD Tomlinson has been under attack for a previous exoneration that he granted by this same sitting Lorraine County prosecutor who just filed a 300-page brief saying that he committed fraud on the court and all kinds of nonsense over a crime that never happened.

• 2:28:46Speaker 00

  And this is why he was so reluctant to ever speak to me in the first place because...

• 2:28:51Joe Rogan?

  He knew he'd be targeted.

• 2:28:52Speaker 00

  He knew he'd be targeted and they're trying to undo an exoneration for this poor woman that's already been exonerated. And I thought, you know, I would talk about it publicly and say, I trust him. I made a presentation to this new prosecutor. I got, um, myself, along with the Ohio Innocence Project, uh, public defenders. I, I got a bar complaint filed against me by the original prosecutor for standing up to exonerate someone. That was summarily dismissed in Ohio. But, you know, and what, and, and the question becomes like, what can you do? So Derek Hamilton and I are, are trying, do we go to the city council?

• 2:29:32Speaker 00

  And raise awareness, don't you care that you have a prosecutor that is seemingly more interested in settling personal scores? And vendettas than he is about letting innocent people go free? And I have this guy, you know, John Edwards is one of the Ohio four. And I'm, I'm, I feel like when I see him calling from prison, I'm running out of things to say to him. Like I'm so desperate for help. And, you know, if anyone is living in Loraine, Ohio, or Elyria, I mean, you gotta take it, you'll take a look at your local elected officials. I mean, demand to know what happened in the Ohio four case. I mean, we have it online. You can read about it. You could read the trial transcripts.

• 2:30:17Speaker 00

  I just don't get why people can't let go and say, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I was wrong. I mean, these guys are, are so demonstrably innocent. Where you have the person that claims he witnessed the whole thing. You know, came, went to the FBI and said, I made the whole thing up. You know, it's just, uh,

• 2:30:39Joe Rogan?

  It's a horrible case.

• 2:30:40Speaker 00

  It's horrible and, and, and

• 2:30:42Joe Rogan?

  Nobody wants to admit it. Nobody, no, but the problem is, I think if they do admit it, someone's gonna start digging into their past. And they're gonna find out these motherfuckers have been wrong a bunch of times.

• 2:30:51Speaker 00

  Well, I'll tell you what, one thing that's different about me and why I hang around Derek so much. Is I want his superpowers to rub off on me because I realize that if you don't get, stay aggressive and keep the pressure on, the truth will eventually, what, what did, uh, what, what was the old, so truth crushed to earth shall rise again? Was that like an MLK quote? I always think about that because at some point,

• 2:31:20Speaker 00

  At some point, um, the truth comes out. It's a stubborn thing. And whether it's old files of an old case and who you used to hang out with, um, and if you have photos sitting in a vault somewhere, whatever it is, it's gonna come out. And it just seems like you're doing so much more damage to hold on to these old beliefs rather than, and because one thing is for sure, I'm stubborn. And I'm growing more stubborn as I, as it, as time goes by to, you have to have the resolve and the wherewithal that every time you get a no, and every time you get rejected, you're like, alright, alright, I see you.

• 2:32:05Speaker 00

  I'm gonna get my beast on now and keep coming back. And I'm gonna bring people with me. And we're gonna make as much noise. One thing that, that people don't like is to have the light on them. And, you know, we, we now have the ability to, to do that. Not only through this platform, but, you know, I was talking to someone before I came here today that works at the center. And I said, you can't be afraid to speak to, um, the press. And I said, as long as, you know, you have some control, some control over what you're saying. And then I like quickly stuffed the words back in my mouth and I said, forget about that.

• 2:32:50Speaker 00

  You gotta be very careful speaking to the press because it gets edited and chopped up.

• 2:32:55Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:32:55Speaker 00

  You know, I just, I did an article with the New York Times about something recently. Man, I, I told that reporter, lose my fucking phone number because you took one sentence of a throwaway quote and disregarded everything else.

• 2:33:10Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:33:11Speaker 00

  You know, and that's why I'm really careful about it.

• 2:33:14Joe Rogan?

  That's why nobody wants to talk to them. Everybody knows the game now. Like, they're... It's just, they have a long history doing that. What they care about is a juicy story. That's all they care about.

• 2:33:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, and suffering sells. And human tragedy sells. And I would really love to be able to tell like the the triumphant stories that a prosecutor did the right thing on the front end. Right? On the front end, rather than after 20, 30, 40, 50 years. So, you know, all of these cases that we talk about, we're gonna do something a little bit different, is I'm gonna set up a repository where people can go in and look at the public records. No one's really ever done that. This way, you don't have to rely on my word, a headline, a clip from a video, where, you know, there were people that started to consume the Ohio 4 case

• 2:34:09Speaker 00

  and are writing in, and are saying like, "How are you letting this stand?" Eventually, enough drips of water fills the bucket and the bucket overflows. And at some point, something's gotta give, right?

• 2:34:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:22Speaker 00

  I mean, if you believe in...

• 2:34:26Speaker 00

  What? Good over evil?

• 2:34:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:30Speaker 00

  I don't know. I mean, something's gotta give.

• 2:34:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, if you really believe in good over evil... I mean, we all believe in good over evil, but sometimes, it doesn't work. And is it for lack of trying, or is it just, the world's not fair? I think it's both.

• 2:34:47Speaker 00

  Well...

• 2:34:47Joe Rogan?

  You know, and I think there's a lot of people that have a lot of power that will keep good from winning, because it would somehow or another derail their life or their career, because they have done something evil.

• 2:34:59Speaker 00

  But this is a sick, this is a sick trait that we possess as mammals, as humans. Whether you're a safety patrol, as a 4th or 5th grader, or a bouncer outside of a club, or a TSA agent, there's something about that authority. Something about that power.

• 2:35:19Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:35:19Speaker 00

  That people get drunk on.

• 2:35:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:35:21Speaker 00

  And they get, they get, it's almost like, it courses through their veins to the point where they're like, "Well, I like this. I'm gonna exert this." And it's, it's like, I just, um... I understand it.

• 2:35:37Speaker 00

  But I don't, um, I don't understand how at some point your conscience doesn't kick in and say, "All right, devil on this shoulder, let's do the right thing." Because I always feel like bound by some sort of social contract, right? Did it ever feel good to harm someone? I don't know, it never did for me as a kid.

• 2:35:59Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:35:59Speaker 00

  I mean, I could look back at my childhood and be like, "That was a shitty thing you did." You know, I still feel guilty about things I did as an elementary school student. It's like-

• 2:36:09Joe Rogan?

  Because you're a good person.

• 2:36:10Speaker 00

  No, no, I don't think that-

• 2:36:11Joe Rogan?

  It is.

• 2:36:11Speaker 00

  I really don't-

• 2:36:11Joe Rogan?

  You are a good person.

• 2:36:12Speaker 00

  No, I don't think that that's what it is.

• 2:36:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's, part of being a good person is when you do make a mistake or do something bad, you feel something.

• 2:36:19Speaker 00

  I don't actually, I appreciate that, but I don't actually think that's what it is. I think that, that, um, we all know when we're saying something hurtful or harmful. At some point, you know it, or you're doing something harmful. And it's just, I don't understand, I guess, the disconnect between having that realization and just saying, "Fuck it," or actually taking, like, a pause.

• 2:36:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:46Speaker 00

  And I guess if I could solve that, I'd have the key to many of the world's problems, but I guess I'm just dealing with these in the meantime.

• 2:36:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, you would have to completely rewire the way people think. And there's ways to do that, and all those ways are illegal.

• 2:37:03Joe Rogan?

  That's where psychedelics comes in. You know, it's one of the things, I had a conversation with my friend Jesse Michaels the other day, and one of the things I said is, one of the things that's really interesting about psychedelics is there is no criminal cartel that sells them, even though they're illegal.

• 2:37:18Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 2:37:19Joe Rogan?

  There's no criminal mushroom industry, where there's a bunch of, like, evil assassins selling kids mushrooms. It's such a uniquely beautiful experience, that it's really only connected to, like, kind people who sell it, I mean, for the most part.

• 2:37:35Speaker 00

  Let me ask you the same thing. Let me ask you something in reference to what you said earlier. Do you think you have to have a particular mental constitution to take psychedelics?

• 2:37:47Joe Rogan?

  I think you should, yeah. You, I, I don't think it's for people that are very vulnerable. I think, uh, there's a lot of people that those regular reality is difficult enough to manage. You know, I'm, you know, I'm saying this objectively, right? Because it's not me. And but I don't want to be arrogant and say, I can do it. You could do it too. That's ridiculous. There's a lot of people that shouldn't be doing anything. They shouldn't be drinking. They shouldn't be, there's people out there that shouldn't do caffeine. This, people have very different biological vulnerabilities. There are some people that I believe are biologically vulnerable to alcoholism. Their whole family's alcoholic. It might be a genetic trait.

• 2:38:28Joe Rogan?

  It seems to be like some, there's something wrong with them and their ability. And then there's also genes that, like, this was the, the issue with Native Americans when we introduced alcohol to them. They didn't have a history of alcohol. They didn't know how to handle it. They, they, they got wrecked. Like, there's, alcoholism to this day is an enormous problem in Native American tribes and, and, and reservations.

• 2:38:52Speaker 00

  It's a major problem in Canada.

• 2:38:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:54Speaker 00

  You know, my.

• 2:38:56Joe Rogan?

  With First Nation people, right?

• 2:38:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they were given reparations.

• 2:39:00Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:39:00Speaker 00

  And my experience with it up there is that they, you know, there's a serious problem, especially in Western Canada with it. But I, um, the reason I ask about it with psychedelics is that I, at the, probably the lowest point in my life, um, you know, I was with you and, um, I remember you recommending ketamine therapy and, or thinking that might be something I should look into.

• 2:39:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this is something that I've never done, but I do know quite a few people. My friend Neil, Neil Brennan, he went to a doctor to get ketamine therapy.

• 2:39:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, so when I. I raised it with my therapist at the time and she was like, the, the body of research on this is so overwhelming that I would be remiss if I told you, don't try it. Something we should talk about and think about. And, you know, it helped me tremendously in a way that very, very low dose, but it's like, you know, I, I mean, I thank you for even like suggesting it because it was something that I had always associated with, like, my roommate in college.

• 2:40:14Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:40:15Speaker 00

  In a, in the fetal position, in his bed, and I was like, yo, what's wrong with him? And someone said, he's in a K-hole. The fuck is that? He's, he's in a, in a K-hole.

• 2:40:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:28Speaker 00

  And it was always like, oh, man, I'm staying away from that. He looks like, he looks like he could expire any moment.

• 2:40:37Speaker 00

  He was not a lighter shade of pale. He was like translucent. And I was like, but then, you know, it's, it's, it's.

• 2:40:44Joe Rogan?

  Under supervision.

• 2:40:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:40:46Joe Rogan?

  Under supervision and then with the correct dose. And I think that would probably be the case with most psychedelics.

• 2:40:52Speaker 00

  And it turned, it, it would turn the field of psychiatry on its head. And there would be such a lobby against it. And the drug companies that make all these great drugs that rewire your brain would hate that shit.

• 2:41:07Joe Rogan?

  Yep. Yeah, they would. Yeah, they would. And I think they're wrong. Yeah, I mean, I think humans throughout history have been using it. And, you know, to various degrees of success. I think for some people, it's not good. It's like a lot of other things, but it's up to us to figure out what's good for you and what's not good for you. This is part of the freedom of being a person, you know? I mean, there's a lot of things that you could easily protect people from that we allow people to do.

• 2:41:38Speaker 00

  Here's the one that, um, I saw a documentary about this and, um, the one that I can't

• 2:41:45Speaker 00

  make a decision on. What's the one where you take it and you're fucking puking? You're retching to the point where you're like puking out of your eyeballs.

• 2:41:55Joe Rogan?

  Ayahuasca?

• 2:41:56Speaker 00

  Ayahuasca.

• 2:41:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:58Speaker 00

  And people are like, fucking, how can that be good?

• 2:42:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, the reason why you puke, well, here's what ayahuasca is, first of all. Ayahuasca is orally active dimethyltryptamine. Dimethyltryptamine is an endogenous drug that your, your body produces, your brain produces. It's produced in the liver, in the lungs. It's, it's a natural component of the human body. Terrence McKenna had a great line about it. He said, the thing about DMT is everyone's holding. Meaning like you're, everyone has, if it's illegal, it's, it's like making blood illegal.

• 2:42:33Speaker 00

  So what?

• 2:42:34Joe Rogan?

  Your body has.

• 2:42:35Speaker 00

  So what does ayahuasca do chemically?

• 2:42:37Joe Rogan?

  So ayahuasca, so dimethyltryptamine, which is the active.

• 2:42:44Joe Rogan?

  Drug, the active compound. Dimethyltryptamine exists in thousands of different plants. It's in a bunch of different grasses and plants. It's not orally active because your body produces something called monoamine oxidase. And monoamine oxidase breaks down dimethyltryptamine in the gut. So that if you consume things like these grasses or different plants that have high levels of dimethyltryptamine in it, your body breaks it down so it doesn't become active. What ayahuasca is, is the one plant that contains dimethyltryptamine and another plant that contains harmine. Harmine, which is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor.

• 2:43:29Joe Rogan?

  So you take the MAO inhibitor and then the dimethyltryptamine, they brew it all together and then you have a slow-release orally active dimethyltryptamine.

• 2:43:40Speaker 00

  That's that motherfucker with the ore.

• 2:43:41Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 2:43:42Speaker 00

  He's working on his making.

• 2:43:44Joe Rogan?

  Alright. You know, and so there's, that is what it is. So you, you take it orally. It takes a long time because it has to go through your digestive process. It gets in your bloodstream. You have this trip. And, um, you know, when you're, you know, puking and shitting and all, all that stuff, it's like, your, your body is like, whatever the fuck this is, is not good. But the result of it, the end of it, is this extremely impactful experience that leads many people to quit alcohol. Many people quit cigarettes from it. They quit destructive behavior. They release trauma and learn to get over things that have happened in their life and move on.

• 2:44:27Joe Rogan?

  It's, uh, you have these experiences where you are in contact with what seems like entities and incredibly wise, loving entities that connect you to nature and to the earth. It, you know, and I'm sure people have bad experiences. I'm sure, it's a very powerful psychedelic.

• 2:44:48Speaker 00

  You shit yourself too?

• 2:44:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you could shit yourself, you could throw up, yeah. I mean, some, it doesn't happen with everybody, but it happens with a lot of people that do it. Um, but that's not the case with smoking dimethyltryptamine. Or with IV drip dimethyltryptamine. We had a guy on recently that they're doing an, uh, a clinic. Where was that island they're doing that? They do, they got it legal in some place. And so you could fly to this place and do, uh, an IV dimethyltryptamine experience without the shitting, without the vomiting, and it's even more intense than ayahuasca. Unless you'd have like a really high dose of ayahuasca. But like this, the pure smoking of DMT is much more powerful.

• 2:45:33Joe Rogan?

  But very short experience, your body brings it back to baseline very quickly. Because your body knows how to process it, right? Your body doesn't know how to process alcohol nearly as well as it knows how to process DMT. Because DMT is natural in the body.

• 2:45:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you don't shit yourself and pu- well, no, that's not true.

• 2:45:50Joe Rogan?

  But you don't with the IV. With the IV, you don't. You don't with smoking it. You don't shit yourself.

• 2:45:55Speaker 00

  Just when you drink that fucking witches brew in the forest. You know, you know, you know. You know what's interesting?

• 2:46:03Joe Rogan?

  Hanging out with hippies.

• 2:46:05Speaker 00

  You could do the, all of these forms of psychedelics that, um, lead to some sort of resolution or peace on the other side. Um, you have to still, even if you do it in modern psychiatry, like I did something called EMDR. Are you familiar with that?

• 2:46:24Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:46:25Speaker 00

  I think it stands for eye movement desensitization. Um, EMDR, yeah. I don't know what the R stands for. Um, but it is something that, um, I mean, you have to go through the, a similar amount of suffering. And it's to deal with past traumas. Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. All right, so I went through this and it helps you.

• 2:46:54Speaker 00

  You could do it, there's some, sometimes you're doing it with your eyes, but you ever,

• 2:47:01Speaker 00

  you ever, you ever use Flonase?

• 2:47:03Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:47:04Speaker 00

  You know what it is?

• 2:47:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:05Speaker 00

  Alright, and it has like a green cover on it. You hold on to these two paddles, the way I did it, and they're hooked up to this little transistors, little box, and it's like, it buzzes your hand, you hold on to them and it'll buzz your hands, no more than like the buzz of a cellphone, in this rhythmic, this rhythmic pattern. And before you do it, you really set up what the trauma is. So, I, I went through months of trying to identify, like, what were the things from my childhood that were haunting me?

• 2:47:39Speaker 00

  And, once you do, you then relive those moments with this rhythmic buzzing. And, you do it again, and again, and again, and after each session, which could last anywhere between a minute to 10 minutes, where your eyes are shut and you're getting this rhythmic pattern, and you open your eyes, and you explain what just happened. But you start in that place, you're 12, you're, and I have to tell you, it was, it was one of the most painful, agonizing things I had ever done.

• 2:48:22Speaker 00

  And, it was the most religious experience I had ever had. Because you're almost in a, you're almost in a trance-like state, and your mind is going, and you then explain what happened, and it's almost like a, it's almost like a guided daydream. And then when you explain it, you then go back again and start. And I, and when I was first doing it, I was like, this is just torture, just straight-up torture. But then you start to see, oh, oh, an improvement in your mood, and an improvement dealing

• 2:49:02Speaker 00

  with that particular, and I learned more about myself, my childhood, my, my, my behaviors, than I, than I did doing any drug, any psychedelic, any, which I did in my youth.

• 2:49:18Speaker 00

  And it literally saved me.

• 2:49:21Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:49:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it, and it, and it sounds to me, I just had this revelation as you're talking about like, you know, it's almost like you have to purge the pain, you have to relive it almost in order to get rid of it. And you're, the theory behind EMDR, as I understand it, is that you don't have the same physiological response at recalling the trauma. You know, you could think of something that happened to you 10 years ago, and you can still get the heart palpitation and the adrenaline rush and the, you know, the other, whatever is being released in your body, whatever hormones get activated, and it doesn't happen anymore. I mean, it's, the way that it was introduced to me was that my therapist did it with combat veterans,

• 2:50:08Speaker 00

  who could get triggered by a grain of sand on the beach, because they were in Desert Storm and Spiral. So I find it interesting because it seems like the same methodology is at play, but it's just a different way of getting there than psychedelic.

• 2:50:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's other ways that they do it without the psychedelic drug that induces psychedelic experience, like holotropic breathing.

• 2:50:31Speaker 00

  What is that?

• 2:50:32Joe Rogan?

  Put that into perplexity, young Jamie.

• 2:50:37Joe Rogan?

  It's a particular style of breathing that allows you to achieve an altered state.

• 2:50:46Joe Rogan?

  I don't want to misspeak on exactly how to do it. It's an intense structured breathing technique designed to induce an altered, non-ordinary state of consciousness for emotional healing and self-exploration. Typically involves prolonged, deep, rapid breathing while lying down accompanied by evocative music and guidance from a trained facilitator. Developed in 1970 by psychiatrist Dennis Love Groff and his wife Christina after LSD-assisted psychotherapy became restricted as a way to reach similar therapeutic states without drugs.

• 2:51:20Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:51:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so there's a bunch of different styles of breathing that, like James Nestor writes about some of these in his book Breath. Is it Breath or Breathe?

• 2:51:33Speaker 00

  Spelled the same way, man.

• 2:51:34Joe Rogan?

  Is it? Doesn't one have an E?

• 2:51:37Speaker 00

  One has an E.

• 2:51:38Joe Rogan?

  I think breathe doesn't eat. Uh, but the point is like, there's ways of inducing uh, a psychedelic state without drugs. Uh, obviously the best one is the isosensory deprivation tank. That takes you to a very psychedelic place and it's completely natural and safe.

• 2:51:56Speaker 00

  A float tank?

• 2:51:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, float tank.

• 2:51:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've done that.

• 2:51:59Joe Rogan?

  Which is in- invented by John Lilly, who uh, also was a ketamine guy. He was really into ketamine.

• 2:52:06Speaker 00

  Oh, I got, I got, you got me into that float tank. I was in there one time and I was like, I didn't know if I was facing north or south. I didn't know if I was submerged in the fucking water.

• 2:52:17Joe Rogan?

  You feel like you're flying through the universe.

• 2:52:19Speaker 00

  There's so much, the salt content keeps you so buoyant that you go into this trance-like state. I highly recommend that shit.

• 2:52:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:27Speaker 00

  I have a question for you, um, off topic.

• 2:52:32Speaker 00

  Who the fuck wins this fight Friday night?

• 2:52:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God. Okay. If you have money to bet on it, you're betting on the Olympic gold medalist, who's a multiple-time heavyweight world champion, who's one of the greatest knockout artists in the history of the heavyweight division. That's Anthony Joshua. What's fun is you don't think Jake Paul can win. And so the underdog rooter in you is like, well, let's see, let's order this, let's see. I mean, the size difference is insane. Uh, Anthony Joshua is 245 pounds, was the weight limit that he had to reach. He had to drop down to 245 pounds, he's probably a little heavier, but that's normal for him. That's fine. It's not like he's gonna be dehydrated or anything.

• 2:53:17Joe Rogan?

  He weighed 243 and um, Jake Paul weighed 216. So, I mean, that's a big gap. It's a big gap in weight. It's a big gap in experience. I mean, you're talking about a guy who fought Usik twice and wasn't stopped by Usik, who's one of the greatest heavyweights, if not the greatest of all time, one of the greatest boxers of all time. You're talking about a guy who beat Vladimir Klitschko, again, fantastic.

• 2:53:40Speaker 00

  In a great fight.

• 2:53:41Joe Rogan?

  Great fight. Um, you're talking about a guy who um, I mean, just knocked out Francis Nganu like it was nothing. I mean, he's fucking dangerous. Anthony Joshua's still in his prime. He's still one of the best of the best. And Jake Paul is a guy who's been fighting guys like Ben Askren and Tyron Woodley, who was a great MMA fighter, but, you know, fought Nate Diaz and had a tough fight with Nate Diaz. And now he's going to fight Anthony fucking Joshua.

• 2:54:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I gotta say, the reason I ask you-

• 2:54:13Joe Rogan?

  Kid's got balls.

• 2:54:14Speaker 00

  He's got balls. You know, Shakur just went and sparred with him recently.

• 2:54:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:20Speaker 00

  And all these kids, I don't think I've ever wanted two people that are fighting each other to lose more. So I don't know which one I want to lose more. Because Anthony Joshua, as great as he is, I don't know, he beefed with Lennox, so I gotta kinda, I gotta kinda like be with my guy.

• 2:54:40Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:54:40Speaker 00

  And then the other guy is just like, so smart in the way he's playing this from a marketing standpoint, I think.

• 2:54:49Joe Rogan?

  Brilliant. You know- He was supposed to fight Gervonta Davis, who's 135-pounder, who's tiny in comparison to him.

• 2:54:55Speaker 00

  And then he flip-flops.

• 2:54:56Joe Rogan?

  Flips it. But he's taken a lot of heat for almost fighting Gervonta, right? But Gervonta had some legal troubles, so he got out of that. And then his response to that is, okay, I'll fight the biggest, baddest fucking heavyweight alive, or one of them.

• 2:55:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and it's almost like a parallel universe because two guys that I manage, in their professional career, are both calling the fight. So Lennox and Andre are both there. And I was talking to them last night, because they were at dinner together, I said, how are you taking this? Isn't this fucking nutty to you?

• 2:55:29Joe Rogan?

  It's definitely nutty, but that's the Jake Paul show. It's a sideshow.

• 2:55:33Speaker 00

  And, and all the young kids, like Shakur, they think, they wanna be around him, they think he's brilliant. And they're right, in a way, right?

• 2:55:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. No, he's brilliant in his marketing, for sure. Like, he's made an extraordinary amount of money, right? So he's doing great, and he's young. And he's super dedicated to boxing. I mean, you watch him train, I've watched many highlight reels of his training. He's very- Very dedicated to boxing.

• 2:56:00Speaker 00

  Works his ass off, but.

• 2:56:01Joe Rogan?

  And he keeps getting better with every fight.

• 2:56:02Speaker 00

  If you're Anthony Joshua and you don't knock that fucking kid out.

• 2:56:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:56:06Speaker 00

  How do you show your face again?

• 2:56:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:56:08Speaker 00

  In the UK?

• 2:56:08Joe Rogan?

  And look, he might knock him out. I mean, and that would probably just show that Jake Paul is legitimate in his ability to take a very difficult fight, you know, that he's willing to not just fight guys that he could beat like Ben Askren, but fight guys that, no experts picking him to beat Anthony Joshua.

• 2:56:27Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm, I'm, I think I'm gonna go. I think I'm gonna go and this is the.

• 2:56:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's in Florida.

• 2:56:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the first time that I'm like, I wanna see this shit show. I wanna see, I mean, these are two, I mean, Anthony Joshua, for all, all bullshit aside, for all his shit talking, like, he's a big moose of a man.

• 2:56:47Joe Rogan?

  He's fast as fuck. He's built like an Adonis. I mean, you gotta, like, if you're betting, I mean, I don't know what the odds are, but the odds have to be heavily in Anthony Joshua's favor.

• 2:56:58Speaker 00

  Are they?

• 2:56:59Joe Rogan?

  They have to be. He's an Olympic gold medalist.

• 2:57:01Speaker 00

  What are the odds right now?

• 2:57:02Joe Rogan?

  He's a two-time heavyweight world champion. I mean.

• 2:57:05Speaker 00

  Let's both get hooked on gambling right now.

• 2:57:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Let's put that in DraftKings, find out what the odds are if you bet on, to win. Let me guess, 10 to 1. 10 to 1 seems reasonable.

• 2:57:17Speaker 00

  I'm gonna guess it's 17 to 1.

• 2:57:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's even more reasonable. I'm, I'm trying to be polite. Maybe it should be 30 to 1. I mean, what was, uh, Buster Douglas, when he beat Mike Tyson, I think it was 42 to 1?

• 2:57:31Speaker 00

  Jamie, Jamie doesn't gamble.

• 2:57:33Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, I definitely don't. It's not allowed in Texas. Uh, he is a minus 1,000 favorite.

• 2:57:40Speaker 00

  You're right.

• 2:57:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:41Speaker 03

  So it's 10 to 1. 650 for Jake Paul.

• 2:57:43Speaker 00

  10 to 1, right?

• 2:57:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:45Speaker 00

  Holy shit, that's a great bet. You gotta bet 1,000 to win 100.

• 2:57:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you gotta feel like you're gonna win.

• 2:57:53Speaker 00

  But, but.

• 2:57:53Joe Rogan?

  If everything is normal.

• 2:57:55Speaker 00

  Joshua's chinny though, man.

• 2:57:57Joe Rogan?

  Is he that chinny though? I mean, he fought Ngano.

• 2:58:00Speaker 03

  There's a minus 10,000 favorite on that card. Also.

• 2:58:03Joe Rogan?

  Who's the minus 10,000?

• 2:58:04Speaker 03

  You know Marley versus, it's the very first fight, but minus 10,000 is an insane number.

• 2:58:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, my feeling is, who knows what's gonna happen. It's a fight, fights are crazy, but if I had to guess, I mean, you gotta lean towards the guy who's a two-time heavyweight champion.

• 2:58:20Speaker 03

  Is that on that card too?

• 2:58:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:58:23Joe Rogan?

  Anderson Silva versus Tyron Wood. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:58:30Speaker 00

  You gotta kind of respect this, this, uh, Jake Paul kid. As much as it pains me to say it, he takes two guys that he beat and puts them on the card together.

• 2:58:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's a, listen, he also supported, uh, Ben Askren when Ben Askren needed, uh, multiple or, or double lung transplant. And his insurance didn't cover it. He footed part of the bill for that.

• 2:58:51Speaker 00

  Um, I'll tell you what's gonna be a great fight.

• 2:58:53Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:58:54Speaker 00

  Shakur against Tiafima Lopez.

• 2:58:56Joe Rogan?

  That's a very good fight.

• 2:58:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:58:57Joe Rogan?

  That's a very good fight.

• 2:58:58Speaker 00

  Uh, Jay, Prince and I were, he, you know, here's a kid that'll fight anyone. Literally, the only other, the only other fighter that we've managed over all these years that was like, I don't care who it is, put him in front of me, I want the best, was Andre Ward. Everyone else is chess playing. Shakur is like, I want Gervonta Davis, Tiafima, get me the biggest name you can. And, uh, I just think that's gonna be an awesome fight.

• 2:59:24Joe Rogan?

  That's a phenomenal fight.

• 2:59:25Speaker 00

  That's at the Garden.

• 2:59:26Joe Rogan?

  When is that?

• 2:59:27Speaker 00

  January 31st. I would love for you to be there. That'll be great.

• 2:59:30Joe Rogan?

  That's an exciting fight.

• 2:59:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were just-

• 2:59:33Joe Rogan?

  I'm super excited about that.

• 2:59:34Speaker 00

  We were just up there for the press conference, me and Jay, and, uh, yeah, it's gonna be a good one.

• 2:59:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, two guys in their prime. I love it.

• 2:59:44Speaker 03

  I have a, one more thing I want to throw in here. Jelly Roll received a full pardon today.

• 2:59:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:59:51Speaker 03

  Governor of Tennessee.

• 2:59:53Joe Rogan?

  Fuck, yeah.

• 2:59:54Speaker 00

  Good.

• 2:59:54Joe Rogan?

  That's amazing.

• 2:59:55Speaker 00

  Yo, man, that mo- that moment on the show, what was it, last week?

• 3:00:00Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:00:01Speaker 00

  Man, I was a puddle.

• 3:00:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:04Speaker 00

  That was so cool.

• 3:00:05Joe Rogan?

  He's an amazing person. That dude's lost 300 pounds.

• 3:00:09Speaker 00

  Let me see that, let me see that picture of him again.

• 3:00:11Joe Rogan?

  Look at him.

• 3:00:12Speaker 00

  He looks, he looks like a different fucking person.

• 3:00:14Joe Rogan?

  Probably has different hands. He's got a different face, different body, and we worked out together, man. He's, he ran 2.6 miles on the treadmill out there. And then we got in the sauna together. He's fucking great.

• 3:00:26Speaker 00

  He's, uh, that, that moment when he said, "Can I hug you?"

• 3:00:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:30Speaker 00

  That was beautiful.

• 3:00:31Joe Rogan?

  He's a beautiful person. He really is. And you are too, brother.

• 3:00:34Speaker 00

  Good for him. Thank you, Brian.

• 3:00:36Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 3:00:36Speaker 00

  Thank you as always for having me.

• 3:00:37Joe Rogan?

  Thanks for being here. You're awesome.

• 3:00:39Speaker 00

  Appreciate you, brother.

• 3:00:40Joe Rogan?

  Appreciate you too. Uh, goodbye.

• 3:00:57Speaker 04

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• 3:01:26Speaker 05

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