Am I Relying Too Much on ChatGPT for Connection?

On today’s episode, we hear about: · A man questioning his reliance on AI for connection · A woman struggling with not being her boyfriend’s priority · A man grappling with being biologically unable to have kids Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Get 15% off with code DELONY at Bon Charge. Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth.  Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi.  Get 25% off your order at Thorne.  Go to Trainwell to get started! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Am I outsourcing too much of my connection to ChatGPT?

• 0:09Dr. John Delony?

  Dude, I just was having this conversation with a couple of scholars. If you're listening to this and you just rolled your eyes, you are wrong. That means you are not engaging with this technology enough because it is frighteningly powerful.

• 0:28Dr. John Delony?

  What's up? What's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show.

• 0:34Dr. John Delony?

  Taking your call about relationships and mental and emotional health and trying to figure out what in the world's going on in this crazy place we've all found ourselves in globally and neighborhoodly and all the stuff. Now, promises, man, I'll sit with you and we'll figure out what's the next right move. If you want to be on the show, go to johndeloney.com/ask, A-S-K. All over the globe, we take calls from all over the place and we will change your name and your location, but I'd love to have you on. So go to Raleigh, North Carolina and talk to Jacob. What's up, Jacob? What's up, brother?

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Hey, man. How's it going?

• 1:10Dr. John Delony?

  Doing all right, dude.

• 1:12Speaker 00

  So, uh, I guess my question is, I'll just kind of dig after that, but my question is, am I outsourcing too much of my connection to ChatGPT?

• 1:24Dr. John Delony?

  I just, dude, I just was having this conversation and with a couple of scholars, man, like wild that this, the timing of this is pretty fortuitous. Tell me, tell me about what you're experiencing. Oh, by the way, if you're listening to this and you just rolled your eyes, you are wrong. That means you are not engaging with this technology enough because it is frighteningly powerful.

• 1:51Dr. John Delony?

  And just if that's just is what it is. And if you're like, oh my gosh, you're kid, you are incorrect. You're not either not using the right models, or you are not using the right programs. Um, I had a run in with it the other night, Jacob, and it I, I, I took my headphones off. I write, I write in a really dark place up in my house. Like I have a little office where I write. And I took my headphones off and I thought, oh no. Like I had that thought. So tell me, and that was just an experience that I was using with, uh, I use a professional version of chat DPT to help me think through things, but go, go, go ahead. Tell me what you've been experiencing.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  Of course. Yeah. So I also want to say I've read both of your books. So I think that the fact that this question even popped into my head very much has a lot to do with that. Just because I know connection is so important. Um, so yeah, gosh, I've had probably the hardest year of my life. Um, I'm on the tail end of a divorce. Uh, my ex-wife, um, cheated on me a couple of different times over the last few years. I had tried to do the whole, you know, buildings burned to the ground. Let's flip the lights on. Let's, uh, get back to the table and, you know, work on this. We got into counseling for a couple of years together. Um, honestly, I thought we were doing so much better. Even, even our community around

• 3:10Speaker 00

  us could just tell that we were like flying higher than we ever did. And she got a new job and it wasn't even six months later that I found out that she started cheating on me with some other guy that, uh, she had known for just like a couple of months at her work. It was crazy. Uh, we had two little girls.

• 3:31Dr. John Delony?

  Hold on, hold on, that's not crazy. That sucks.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  It does.

• 3:36Dr. John Delony?

  Hold on, don't, don't laugh past it. Don't laugh past it. That's what you do. That's not supposed to be that way.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  It's not.

• 3:43Dr. John Delony?

  And while y'all go into therapy, you were doing better. She wasn't. That hurt.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and you know, I think that I had at the very beginning of our marriage, and I was honest with her before we ever got married. I had struggled with pornography, basically my entire teenage life. And we got married straight out of high school, by the way. Married for 10 years. And so I struggled with that at the beginning.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  And by the time we, we had made it to counseling after she cheated on me the first time with an ex-boyfriend.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Man, like, my eyes got opened to the world. I was like, what? Like, you, you talk about being dead in your skin. Like, that's how I felt. So I felt like I woke up and I was like, man, life is around me. This is crazy. And I just, I started living. And you're right, I don't think she ever did. And I thought her getting this dream job that she always wanted, I saw that light in her eyes. And I'm like, this is it. She's finally seeing what, anyways, all that to be said. It, it worked out the way that it worked out. So I am now a full, single, ti- a full-time, single dad.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  She sees the girls maybe once a week, that kind of a thing. So I'm doing the whole school thing. I work from home. So I'm very lonely.

• 5:17Dr. John Delony?

  How old is she? I mean, how old is your daughters?

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, my, uh, seven and five.

• 5:23Dr. John Delony?

  What kind of mom doesn't want to be around her kids?

• 5:26Speaker 00

  She'd say that she does want to be around her kids.

• 5:29Dr. John Delony?

  No, she doesn't. Behavior's a language, dude. She doesn't.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  She, she didn't even see them on Mother's Day. So.

• 5:34Dr. John Delony?

  I, I mean, I just took another call just a minute ago about.

• 5:39Dr. John Delony?

  A dad that didn't want to be around his kid. I can't, I cannot wrap my head around.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  I can't.

• 5:44Dr. John Delony?

  But it is what it is. And it's a futile, it's a futile quest to try to figure out what's going on in people's hearts and minds, but it is what it is. But geez, man, I'm sorry. So you're stuck at home, you have no adults in your life, you've got two little girls that you're trying to protect from what I think is one of the most caustic experiences, which is a parent, particularly for young girls, their mother saying, I'd rather not be around you. And then you stumble into frickin' ChatGPT.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and that's where I've, I guess, found myself. I have friends, I have, you know, siblings that I, that I do talk to, but it's those nights where it's just real lonely. And I'm a writer, I, I process, you know, I like to just process through journaling and it's a journal that talks back to you.

• 6:33Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  And yeah, I, I kind of started it as, I guess, a joke, like, I just wonder what we'll say. But then it got to this point where I'm like, dang, like, I really feel like I am getting something from this. And, and that's when it started to scare me. I was like, maybe this isn't a good thing. So I wanted your thoughts on that.

• 6:55Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, dude, I mean, I got a lot of thoughts on it and I've got personal experience with it. So I have a rule. I refuse to use ChatGPT to do things for me when it comes to writing, when it comes to, um, like, I, I've got not colleagues in this building, but colleagues across the country that just dump some ideas in and say, like, basically, write me a blog, write me a book.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't like that. Yeah.

• 7:18Dr. John Delony?

  I refuse to do that because I use writing, I use hard conversations with friends of mine that have different opinions as ways and different experiences, different expertises, as a way to sharpen what I actually think and believe about something, right? The thing that freaked me out. So, so I'm able to, and for those of you listening, I'm able to sit down and say, I had this idea about anxiety. Sigmund Freud, what do you think about this? I'm interested in a dialogue with me and Sigmund Freud and Rollo May and Erwin Yalom, three godfathers of modern psychology, all a little bit different. What do y'all think about my ideas? And it will talk to me in their voice. But it also, it doesn't just give me information.

• 8:03Dr. John Delony?

  It says, oh, that's a nice idea. I hadn't thought of that before. Let me think about that for a second. And then it will say, well, what do you think about this? And it's the attenuating words that made me take my headphones off. Cause what has happened over the last decade is we've outsourced all of our talking to text messages and direct messages and emails. And so we've primed our bodies for some sort of reciprocal interaction. We call it, we call it connecting, but we're not, we're just communicating with an electronic medium in between us.

• 8:43Dr. John Delony?

  And now we have an electronic medium that is smarter than any group of people who's ever lived, who remembers every single solitary keystroke we have. That learns over time what words we respond to better, like, ooh, well done, or that's a great idea, hadn't thought of that. And in your case, you chased a ghost for a decade and you called that ghost your wife. And she never said, that's a really good idea. I hadn't considered that.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:17Dr. John Delony?

  She never said that. So here's what, this is, and I'm grappling with this in real time. Okay? Here's in the, in the mental health space, the studies are already pouring in. Grok and ChatGPT and I think even Anthropic, I have to go back and see, Anthropic may be a company, whether it's, they can listen to just a few minutes of vocal tone and make a clinical diagnosis. This person is clinically depressed, we can tell by their voice. They can do medical diagnostic and even mental health diagnostic. You punch in, here's what I'm experiencing, here's what I'm feeling. And they're better than people at making a clinical diagnosis, at giving you a label.

• 10:02Dr. John Delony?

  And so as a mental health guy, I'm instantly going, oh my gosh.

• 10:07Dr. John Delony?

  Look what we did to ourselves, mental health world. We, instead of focusing on sitting with hurting people, we focused on getting the label right. Well, now something can label better than us and faster than us and more efficiently than us.

• 10:22Dr. John Delony?

  And in your case, you're a writer. The worst part of writing is that flashing cursor. The second worst part of writing is hitting send on a draft and waiting for that other reader to read it and write you back.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:38Dr. John Delony?

  And now you get that instantly.

• 10:42Dr. John Delony?

  And this one likes you.

• 10:46Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Yup.

• 10:47Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, here's what a interface with ChatGPT is. It is intellectual pornography.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Yikes.

• 10:57Dr. John Delony?

  It's the exact same thing you were getting from looking at naked people. And feeling sexualized.

• 11:06Dr. John Delony?

  Now you're interfacing with a robot and you're feeling intellectualized.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Geez, that makes me feel icky.

• 11:15Dr. John Delony?

  It does. I mean, literally, that's why I took my headphones off and had a moment of existential dread and both, oh, this thing is real, real powerful.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:29Dr. John Delony?

  And so here's, I guess I would say this, connection is never information.

• 11:38Dr. John Delony?

  Connection is presence, which is biology.

• 11:43Dr. John Delony?

  We use information as a way to grease the wheels of sitting in somebody else's presence.

• 11:51Dr. John Delony?

  We use the question, hey, what do you think about, as a way to sit with somebody else. But the answer to that question is never the point. The point is that we're sitting with each other.

• 12:04Dr. John Delony?

  Seeing professional actors and actresses do all kind of acrobatic sexual things that are just bananas and wild and what, that looks enticing and appealing, and it is. It actually gets the many of the same, if not all the same chemicals going, sometimes in far excess of what happens in reality. And there's something about sleeping with the same person and going through your skinny phase and your fat phase and the, ugh, I gotta ration the lights off and the, I don't feel pretty, but I still am gonna, I still think you're pretty. And I don't feel handsome, but I still think you're handsome. And you wake up 35 years later and you are a entity. We are one.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:52Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And so my fear is, when I did my first big will, not my fear, this is 100% going to happen. Um, when I did my first will, I sat down, I did it for a class, for a law class. I had the opportunity to work with the best, the number one wills and estates guy on the planet, Jerry Byer, and he sat down and said, I'll, I'll do your will, but you're gonna do it for my class.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 13:16Dr. John Delony?

  What I realized is, the most important thing, I needed to get that piece of paper so that if I drop dead, um, my, the courts would know what to do with my estate. My, my wife and kids would be taken care of, right?

• 13:32Dr. John Delony?

  But right underneath that, the most important part of the will was me sitting down and making it. And having to sit with somebody else and them watch me cry when I had to tell them who I want my kids to go to if I die. And me to think through, what song do I want played at my funeral?

• 13:54Dr. John Delony?

  And I didn't skip that, I went right through it. And on the other end of that experience, of that awkward, uncomfortable, human experience, I'm, was more ready to face death in a strange way. I'm more, I, I felt more, this sounds cheesy, I felt more alive. I'm gonna go be present with my kids, cause there will be a day when I'm not with them.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:19Dr. John Delony?

  And if I just chat GPT to will, which you can do, make me a will. And if you, if it's not right now, in the next six months, there will be a company that will just do an interface with your will, and it will crank it out for you, and it will be legally binding.

• 14:33Dr. John Delony?

  You skip the experience of what it feels like to come face to face with the question, what's gonna happen when you're gone, because you will be gone. All that to say is, I think chat GPT, I think all these things are amazing technologies. And when it comes to doing research for my writing, I'm writing a new book right now, I'm starting the process. Getting access to the scholarly info is saving me months of time. But the point for me writing a book is not just cranking out a book and sell another book. That's not why I write books. I would sit down and write so that I can really laser focus and sharpen what I think about a thing. And then I want that experience to people to be

• 15:16Dr. John Delony?

  able to participate in that experience. That make sense?

• 15:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, love that.

• 15:21Dr. John Delony?

  So, interface with chat GPT, it will make you a better writer. It just will.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Oh, and truthfully, it has. I write songs. I don't, I don't write books. I write songs. I've, I've written without chat GPT's help, because I'm like you. I've written like 34 songs in just the last five months after all of this, which is crazy to me. But I'll throw, I'll throw this one out there real quick.

• 15:45Dr. John Delony?

  Hold on, hold on. Can I click on that?

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, sorry. Yeah.

• 15:49Dr. John Delony?

  If you rob yourself of the scary awkwardness of playing those songs in front of a group of other people, you're robbing yourself of the magic of being an artist.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, actually, I've been, I've been on that fence to where I'm thinking about putting out some stuff finally, instead of just putting it into a computer screen.

• 16:11Dr. John Delony?

  Not just putting it out, sitting in a room of people and playing it.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  Gosh.

• 16:17Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I've started doing? This is gonna sound crazy, and this is, I'm exactly with you. Um, on, next week, I'll do two events. One in front of 2,500 people on a stage, and I think one in front of 1,000 people in two different states.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 16:31Dr. John Delony?

  Okay? I am consistently putting myself on a stage in front of 100 people in a dimly lit comedy club.

• 16:41Dr. John Delony?

  Because one is a performance and one is being with people.

• 16:46Dr. John Delony?

  One is a song and a day, like it's a big theatrical thing. It's a huge stage, big lights, big sound. And the other is just a quiet room and a single microphone and them saying, "I'm having a bad day. Will you help me laugh?"

• 16:59Dr. John Delony?

  And I am intentionally both using the magic that is the AI thing that's coming and nobody is grasping how quick this is coming and how transformative it is. It's going to ask us the question, what does it actually mean to be human? And I'm also intentionally trying to find places where I'm awkward and uncomfortable because that is the beauty of being a human being. That's the thing that computer can't take away.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  I will, I will say, you know, I've been on because of everything that you, you know, you teach and preach. I got uncomfortable and started volunteering locally doing just like some outdoor parks and recreation stuff, which I'd never done before and it's really, really awkward. But yeah, so I am doing those things. Like I said, it's just that those nighttime moments where it's, you know, you're just laying in bed alone. And I've not been alone really my entire life. So

• 17:50Dr. John Delony?

  So here's the deal.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  Just got to find a new outlet.

• 17:53Dr. John Delony?

  You'll never heal if you don't go through the dark night of being alone. Cause then you'll never have to fully feel the impact of this divorce.

• 18:03Dr. John Delony?

  You'll never have to fully feel the impact of

• 18:10Dr. John Delony?

  that girl you love since high school literally left you and her girls. And you'll never have to fully wrestle with, how did I miss that?

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:22Dr. John Delony?

  You'll never have to fully wrestle with, how am I going to trust again? Cause the greatest gift I can give my girls next is a dad who knows how to love and laugh and have joy again.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  I hate you.

• 18:35Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I'm saying? But if you, if you don't do that.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:39Dr. John Delony?

  Then ChatGPT is pornography. It's a Xanax. It's a way to not feel and it's a, it's a, it's a substitute for the real thing.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:50Dr. John Delony?

  And so I think that, I think the bravest call in the coming century is a, it's, it's, it's this way. It's this. For all of human history,

• 19:03Dr. John Delony?

  scarcity, when it came to food and water was the thing. So our entire body is attuned to find food and eat it when you get it. Now, we've had to switch and we have to say, hey, now the new game in the 21st century is the new thing we have to do to stay alive and not die early is to not eat so much because it's everywhere.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:26Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Similarly, for all of human history, you couldn't avoid these things. You couldn't avoid going through somebody's father to be with their daughter. You couldn't avoid getting stared down by his, by your romantic interest sisters.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 19:43Dr. John Delony?

  Now you can. Now I can just talk to a computer. I can just get a will. I don't have to think about death. I can just get the paper. I don't have to think about, um, uh, I don't have to sit and be awkward with a, with a car dealer. I can just get the thing delivered to my house and move on with my day.

• 19:58Dr. John Delony?

  And now I think the future is, do you know what? I can write songs here. I can use this machine to help me write songs. It will critique the songs and I can just get in a feedback loop and slowly I erode the thing that makes me who I am in the first place, which is courage. I'm gonna go get in a room of 10 people and play three of these songs. God, I hope they love them. Ah, I'm not gonna sleep for three days. And then, then I'm, I'm gonna play them and I'm gonna be like, did you like it? Did you like it? What'd you think? And I'm gonna go home and have a vulnerability hangover. That is the good stuff.

• 20:31Dr. John Delony?

  That's a good.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  That sounds like a good next step.

• 20:33Dr. John Delony?

  Will you do me another favor?

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:36Dr. John Delony?

  When you're, when you're out there, uh, volunteering, which dude, I'm so freaking proud of you. And if you bring your daughters with you, you're extra gangster. While you're out there volunteering, keep your eyes open.

• 20:48Dr. John Delony?

  Because that's where you may see that other single mom out there trying to figure out her next step too. And that, my friend, is how I hope it happens for you. Not a swipe right, but a, "Oh, you're here too?"

• 21:05Dr. John Delony?

  That, my friend, is being human. Thanks for the call, my brother. Close the laptop screen, man. Close the laptop screen. All right, coming up, a woman asks if it's ever okay to not be the top priority in her relationship.

• 21:22Dr. John Delony?

  Be right back.

• 21:24Dr. John Delony?

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• 22:56Dr. John Delony?

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• 24:41Dr. John Delony?

  All right, Spokane, Washington, right down the street here. Let's go to Ashley. What's up, Ashley?

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 24:48Dr. John Delony?

  What's up?

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Well, as you explained, I'm in a dilemma of, do I accept not being the top priority?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  It's a tricky... You know, you ask that question to any friend and of course, the immediate response is no. But I'm dating a guy who has kids from a previous marriage. And they are his top priority, which I encourage, respect, all of that. But how much do I accept in not being that top priority?

• 25:30Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 25:33Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me what top priority is is existentially loaded. That's a heavy way to phrase that. Give me some examples that have come up where you have been moved from perch as girlfriend, as the chief woman in his life, to second or third or fourth tier.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Okay, so we're both very busy, so schedules are tricky. So already time is limited. And there was an instance before he was going on a work trip that we had planned to do dinner before. And that same evening, he ended up having to help shuttle one of the kids, which again, I fully support that and want to encourage that. I think he's a wonderful dad. He's always there for them. But then my plans with him are always the first to get canceled.

• 26:37Dr. John Delony?

  How old are these kids?

• 26:40Speaker 02

  They are 10, eight and six.

• 26:43Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, that's a tough age. There's a lot going on in those ages, right?

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:48Dr. John Delony?

  There's always a dentist appointment or a doctor appointment or a ball game or a theater thing. Like, there's a lot going on. Um, underneath this question, what is his relationship like with his ex-wife?

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Uh, great. I mean, they co-parent extremely well, which is, you know, she had asked if he would assist with that and he said absolutely and clearly dropped everything to go do it.

• 27:13Dr. John Delony?

  So is it

• 27:16Dr. John Delony?

  that your second priority to her?

• 27:22Dr. John Delony?

  Because the kids aren't the problem here.

• 27:28Dr. John Delony?

  In that situation that you just put out there, the kids, the kids needed a ride, but mom didn't or couldn't or had something else pop up.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 27:39Dr. John Delony?

  And so he's not bailing the kids out, he's bailing her out.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Sure. I know, I mean, so, oh, sorry, go ahead.

• 27:48Dr. John Delony?

  You go ahead, go ahead.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  So another example was when I was on the road and our schedules weren't matching up. I had called to touch base when I had like an hour gap. And his response was that he was just gonna, or he texted back, which is also another thing. But he texted back that he was gonna just hang out with his kids because that was his evening with them. Because I understand that time is also limited. But that one doesn't involve the mom. So that one is just, you know, he was choosing them over the quick connection with me.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  And I'm never going to ask him to not hang out with them or not spend time with them. But those are the things that if, if kids weren't involved, I wouldn't be accepting this behavior.

• 28:44Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  From.

• 28:47Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I, I, it feels to me like there's a lot going on here.

• 28:54Dr. John Delony?

  Because he can, he can quote unquote, hey, I want to be spending time with my kids. But anybody can pick up a phone call real quick and say, hey, what's up? Hope you had a great day. Doing good? Awesome. I got the kids, so love you. Take care. Have a great, great, great night. Anybody can do that.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 29:10Dr. John Delony?

  So him choosing not to do that is not about the kids. He's using the kids in that process to not pick up the phone. And maybe there's a conversation you don't know about between him and his ex. It's like, hey, no other people yet. Or who knows, who knows? I just made that up, but, um, but that's silly. And also, he bailed out his ex. If they chose to get divorced and they chose to have custody arrangements, and they chose to, the kids stay here one week and here the other week, or here three days a week, whatever. Then, if I can't pick them up, then it's my job to hire somebody or to call a friend or whatever. And it's easy just to call my, my ex. But we got divorced.

• 29:55Dr. John Delony?

  We legally and spiritually separated.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:01Dr. John Delony?

  And the kids become a proxy. So in one situation, the kids are becoming the proxy that he didn't really want to talk to you.

• 30:10Dr. John Delony?

  In another one, the kids are the proxy, like he's kind of bailing her out at the, at the expense of the plans y'all made together. Here's the frustrating reality for you. None of that matters. What matters is, what do you want in a relationship? Do you have the courage to be very clear about what that is? And will you sit down and give him a roadmap of what that looks like from his heart to yours, from his head to yours? And then the scariest thing is, will he say, I can't do that right now? That's what it feels like y'all are avoiding.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Well, I did, after, after the canceled dinner plans, I did tell him I would appreciate maybe even just being brought into the conversation about that being the planned switch, that maybe that would help better than just being told I'm off the calendar. You know, rather than saying, hey, this has come up. Could we reschedule? Could we, or, you know, making it a conversation rather than just being told that we're no longer doing what we said we were going to? Um, and he's, he's very receptive to that. I mean, he, he acknowledges that he, you know, and apologizes that that's how he made me feel, like he doesn't intend to do that, but...

• 31:39Speaker 02

  I could see this replaying over and over again. Next time something comes up.

• 31:44Dr. John Delony?

  Correct.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Where.

• 31:45Dr. John Delony?

  How, how, how long ago was this divorce?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  I think like three years.

• 31:51Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Or I guess separated three.

• 31:54Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 31:56Dr. John Delony?

  Cause I'm wondering if he has a lot of parents separate and they have a tremendous amount of guilt in their own chest and they respond to every.

• 32:07Dr. John Delony?

  My kids make 50 requests a minute when I'm at home. Hey dad, can I have a snack? Can we go fishing? Can I have a party? Are you gonna get a new truck? Let's get a new house. Like it's always that. But if I'm operating out of a sense of guilt, that I'm just gonna, I wanna jump as high as I can whenever they call.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Yes, that.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  I think that's it.

• 32:29Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Maybe have that conversation. I love you and I've seen this in you. I feel like you're walking around feeling guilty for your ex, feeling guilty for your kids, feeling guilty for everything, feeling guilty when I say, hey, I wanna be a part of, when you cancel a plan for me, you feel guilty about that too. Like I feel like you're just walking around guilty and it's hard to anchor into somebody who's just feeling guilty all the time.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 32:56Dr. John Delony?

  Maybe.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  And then how do you? How, I mean, how, I guess then he has to work through that.

• 33:01Dr. John Delony?

  That's it. You can't solve that. You just have to decide, do I wanna date somebody who's wrestling with that?

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 33:10Dr. John Delony?

  But yes, it is right. He's got, yeah, it's very tricky. It's very, very tricky. Especially if you, if you like everything about him. And it might be that the most attractive thing about him is his dedication to his kids.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:23Dr. John Delony?

  In a world where dads just leave at the drop of a hat because they're weak and they're cowards and they're whiners, like they just leave. Um, how amazing is it to see a good man who, he even apologizes? God, I mean, what kind of guy is this, right? And also it's right for him if he makes a commitment to his children that you come behind that commitment. They're, they're just, they're little bitty. If they were 22, I would be having a different conversation with you.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 33:56Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And have you, have you ever been married before?

• 33:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:00Dr. John Delony?

  Have you ever had, oh, so you have any kids of your own?

• 34:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:03Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  So it's a lot.

• 34:04Dr. John Delony?

  Well, it, it's a lot, but hear me say.

• 34:09Dr. John Delony?

  My marriage is pretty dang good. It's not perfect by 100 miles, but it's pretty good. The conversation you and him are having right now, my wife and I have, and we only have two kids. So, being in a relationship when you have three young ones running around is just, it stress tests the relationship, even if you have a great marriage. It's just hard. You, though, get to decide, "Do I want to be in this?"

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:41Dr. John Delony?

  "Hey, we got dinner plans." Well, suddenly the kid's sick. "Plans are off, I gotta go home." "Oh, man, that sucks, I had a whole thing planned." That's my life. Or, "Hey, we got this thing going on this weekend, that's cool. Hey, somebody just called and wants me to fly out and speak at their business, they're gonna pay this." "Well, you have to go, but that sucks." Right? That's our life right now. So, I don't even know that it's, you throw divorce on there and you throw him starving for oxygen because he wants to just hold his babies every night before he goes to bed and he can't legally. And so, you throw that stress on top of just the stress of being with somebody who's got three young kids, even in the best of marriages, it's just hard, it's a mess.

• 35:21Dr. John Delony?

  So, it's a daily, weekly, monthly, but especially a daily negotiation of what does today look like? And sometimes it is you choosing, "I'm not gonna get my feelings hurt," when he just cancels plans to go grab his kids. That's just how that works when you have little kids. "Hey, somebody just got sick, I gotta cancel." That's me and my wife, right? And also, have the conversation about the guilt, have a conversation about these other things. I think it's worth investing in. But thank you so, so, so much for the call. Really appreciate it. Let me know how it goes, let me know what you decide. Because I'm fascinated to hear what a single woman who's opting into a crazy life with three little ones, how that even goes.

• 36:03Dr. John Delony?

  When we come back, a man wonders when to share his infertility challenges in a relationship.

• 36:11Dr. John Delony?

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• 36:55Dr. John Delony?

  Hallow offers mental health meditations and prayers that I've personally used and found helpful. From healing emotional wounds to establishing healthy habits, these guided prayers give you words of comfort and longing when you're all out of things to say. If you're ready to find some peace in the chaos and some purpose in your day, check out Hallow. Plus, right now, when you sign up at hallow.com/Deloney, you get three months for free. Again, that's Hallow, H-A-L-L-O-W dot com slash Deloney for three months for free. Columbus, Ohio, let's talk to Michael. What's up, Michael?

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Hey, Dr. John, how are you doing?

• 37:32Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good, brother. What's up with you, man?

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Um, so I had a cancer about, um, three years ago, and I'm in remission now. And then some of the treatment has left me unable to have my own kids.

• 37:45Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 03

  And I just don't know, as I get back into the dating world, when the best time to bring that up or how to bring that up is.

• 37:53Dr. John Delony?

  The very first date. I'm totally kidding, don't do that. Yeah, awesome. "Hey, I'm Michael, I can't have kids." Yeah, don't do that. Um, tell me, tell me what the, what the, what the fear of that, like, there's fear underneath that question. What's your fear?

• 38:10Speaker 03

  Um, I guess it's like it goes, like, everything is going well. And then I feel like that could just be something that torpedoes everything. And then, like, it's out of my control, so it's like...

• 38:25Speaker 03

  Even if I have a great connection with someone that could just ruin it.

• 38:30Dr. John Delony?

  So let me, you have this big, this, this big neon sign in front of you. Okay. And it's easy to point at that neon sign, but let me get underneath that sign. Okay.

• 38:44Dr. John Delony?

  The main question that every human being on planet earth wants answered is, now that you know all of me, do you still love me?

• 38:58Dr. John Delony?

  And so what I want to tell you is, man, you survived cancer.

• 39:04Dr. John Delony?

  You're strong, you're resilient, you got to peer over the other edge, right? Over, over the edge of not even being here anymore. Scary stuff.

• 39:14Dr. John Delony?

  That makes you a pretty amazing guy. And I can't have kids. That's a fact about me. It's not a character indictment. That's not a character flaw. That's not, that's just a fact. I am five foot eight. I only date tall guys. Well, I'm amazing and I'm five foot eight. You get to opt in or out of this. I've been married before. I'm an amazing woman and I, I was with an abusive guy. I'm still amazing. I'm still a great person and you get to choose.

• 39:45Dr. John Delony?

  That deeper question is, now that you know me, do you still love me? And I guess I want to share with you that I've been married for 23 years now. I still ask that question.

• 39:56Dr. John Delony?

  And so I think it's being comfortable with, learning to be in your own skin enough to say, this is who I am, man. I'm not going to apologize for it. I didn't, I didn't do anything wrong. In fact, I'm a survivor and I'm pretty, I'm pretty dang strong now. Um, but this is a fact about me. And if somebody opts out of that, then they opt out. And yes, I could break your heart and be sad and all that. But you're, you're asking the question as though if they find out that you were, committed a bunch of felonies one time, you're in jail, but I promise, I promise, I promise I'm different.

• 40:28Dr. John Delony?

  That's, I don't want, I don't want you to, to put yourself in that bucket.

• 40:35Dr. John Delony?

  Does that ring true?

• 40:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:41Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, I threw a lot at you. Talk back to me.

• 40:46Dr. John Delony?

  You got quiet on.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was just, uh, processing it all.

• 40:52Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, uh, like I've shared it with some of my friends. They've kinda said the same thing, but it's just hard to come to grasp with it still.

• 41:06Dr. John Delony?

  Can I, can I, yeah, can I poke on that a little bit? Is that okay?

• 41:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:13Dr. John Delony?

  I think you're the one that hasn't grieved I won't be able to have kids.

• 41:20Dr. John Delony?

  You don't like that about you.

• 41:24Dr. John Delony?

  And you're wondering how in bloody hell could another person still love me when I'm not okay with me?

• 41:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:35Dr. John Delony?

  Did you wanna have kids?

• 41:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:38Dr. John Delony?

  How many? Like when you just like close your eyes and have a picture of you with gray hair kinda thinning on top. How many kids are sitting around that Thanksgiving table?

• 41:48Speaker 03

  Uh, like four.

• 41:50Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 41:55Dr. John Delony?

  I can feel it inside of my chest, like, uh, it's slowly dropping into my guts. I'm sorry, man.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 42:07Dr. John Delony?

  That breaks my heart for you.

• 42:25Dr. John Delony?

  Can I tell you something crazy to do?

• 42:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:31Dr. John Delony?

  Would you make up some imaginary names for those four kids and write them all a letter? You can just write one.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I can do that.

• 42:42Dr. John Delony?

  And just say, "Hey, I'm not gonna get to meet you, but just know I would've been a great, great, great dad, and I might adopt kids one day. I might be the best foster parent you've ever seen in your life.

• 42:54Dr. John Delony?

  But I wanted to meet you guys, and I'm not gonna get to meet you. I got sick."

• 43:03Dr. John Delony?

  And if you're a real gangster, which I don't know if I would be, but you're stronger than me. You went, I mean, you went through cancer treatments. You might get a couple of buddies and just say, this is gonna be the weirdest thing I've done, but I'm gonna read this out loud. I gotta share this with other people.

• 43:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:22Dr. John Delony?

  It's hard to ask somebody else to love us when we really think there's a thing about us that's unlovable.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:34Dr. John Delony?

  And I don't think this makes you unlovable, but it does break my heart for you, because this is a tragedy for you.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  It's been hard.

• 43:42Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 43:46Dr. John Delony?

  Will you make me a promise in your grief?

• 43:50Dr. John Delony?

  Put some, put some, put some, put some guardrails on your grief. And I know that sounds bananas, and nobody's probably ever told you that before. But make a commitment to not drink a lot.

• 44:00Dr. John Delony?

  And make a, make a commitment to call somebody if you get sad.

• 44:05Dr. John Delony?

  And make a commitment to not go down some pornography rabbit hole, or some online gambling rabbit hole. Just make a commitment to head directly into the middle of this hurt. Acknowledge those four kids that won't, won't ever be at that kitchen table. And then make space for, maybe I'm gonna adopt someday. I'm gonna find some woman who's just all in on me and wants to build a life with me. And, by the way, not if, but you will. You'll find that person.

• 44:32Dr. John Delony?

  And you'll say, I can't have my own biological kids. And here, can I tell you how I know this? One of my closest friends on the planet, a couple.

• 44:42Dr. John Delony?

  He had cancer. He can't have kids. And they've become, they are, they work at a, at a children's ranch. They, they take care of young people.

• 44:53Dr. John Delony?

  And they are astounding foster parents.

• 44:58Dr. John Delony?

  And both of them get sad every once in a while about the bio kid thing. All of it's true.

• 45:11Dr. John Delony?

  But my buddy, like most of the men in my life, married way over his skis.

• 45:25Dr. John Delony?

  So I'm not, I'm not just blowing smoke at you. I know this to be true because these people are in my life and I love them. And they're extraordinary.

• 45:40Dr. John Delony?

  And I can tell you that I don't get an opportunity very often to, um, that's not true. I do, but not as much as I would like. I don't get the opportunity to just talk to like brave, brave men like you. So thanks for giving me the opportunity to do that.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  You're welcome. Thanks for everything.

• 46:02Dr. John Delony?

  What's your next move, brother?

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Um, I'll, uh, probably write that letter like you suggested and then, uh, get ahold of some of my closest friends.

• 46:14Dr. John Delony?

  And announce to them that you're gonna do something weird. Okay?

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, they'll probably expect it.

• 46:19Dr. John Delony?

  Don't, don't let them come over and just think they're singing karaoke or something or playing Fortnite and all of a sudden you're like, I'm gonna read it. A letter to four kids that don't exist. Um, the old, the, the, the number one voice on the planet, I think. And when it comes to grieving is David Kessler. And one of his cornerstone lines is grief demands a witness. The only way your body can metabolize it is in the presence of other people.

• 46:47Dr. John Delony?

  And so there's something about feeling it, for real feeling it, like it's a loss.

• 46:55Dr. John Delony?

  And sharing that loss with other people.

• 47:01Dr. John Delony?

  And will you add one quick thing to that letter at the end?

• 47:04Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:06Dr. John Delony?

  Make sure you let those, those four ghosts, those four kids that were gonna be that aren't. Make sure you let them know what kind of awesome guy you're gonna be.

• 47:18Dr. John Delony?

  Moving forward. Cause you're still gonna be that balding, gray haired, 50 or 60 year old man. Give them a little glimpse into what that guy's life might look like, who you're gonna become.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 47:35Dr. John Delony?

  Cool.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 47:37Dr. John Delony?

  It's been a high honor talking to you, my brother. Thank you so much for the call. I'm really, really grateful for you.

• 47:44Dr. John Delony?

  All right, don't skip this one. I want to talk to you about my friends at Delete Me. Does anyone else feel like your digital footprint is starting to feel more like a digital trail, leading right back to you and your family? Right now, scammers are using phishing attacks. That's phishing with a P H. Where they try to trick you into giving them something by pretending to know you. You get an email, a text, or a phone call, and the person or the AI bot on the other end sounds like someone who's looking out for you, and you give them all of your information, and then they rip you off. With the new technological advancements, no one is really safe. So what is any of us to do? You can start controlling what you can. Learn about how to be careful, online and offline, and sign up with Delete Me.

• 48:27Dr. John Delony?

  I use and recommend Delete Me because they work in the background to reduce my online presence. That way, I don't have to worry about creepy data brokers having all of my data and selling it back and forth without me knowing. Delete Me has reviewed over tens of thousands of sites for me, and they've removed my data from hundreds of them, which has saved me countless hours and a ton of stress. Stop phishing attacks, harassment, and other online threats before they start, and take control of your digital privacy with Delete Me. Go to joindelete.me/deloney today for 20% off an annual plan. That comes out to less than nine bucks a month. That's joindelete.me/deloney. All right, we're back. We got an "Am I the Problem", Kelly 2.0?

• 49:11Speaker 04

  Yes, Macy from Orlando, Florida.

• 49:14Dr. John Delony?

  Now, let's do, real quick, let's do John from Nashville. John from Nashville asked, whoa, John from Nashville may be drinking. John from Nashville asks if I record an episode, and the guy in charge of all of the cameras and lighting, if he doesn't hit record, and we have to burn everything.

• 49:43Dr. John Delony?

  Am I the problem? Or is he the problem?

• 49:48Dr. John Delony?

  Nathan Keeler?

• 49:51Speaker 05

  No, not at all.

• 49:55Speaker 05

  I'm the problem. I messed up.

• 49:58Dr. John Delony?

  Now I feel bad because you like take ownership because you're like a good guy.

• 50:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, because I'm, yeah, yeah.

• 50:04Dr. John Delony?

  All right, go to the other. Am I the problem, Kelly 2.0?

• 50:08Speaker 04

  All right. Macy from Orlando, Florida writes, "My husband and I have caught my mom in lies regarding what she feeds our two-year-old daughter. She's given her all the food we don't allow, especially ultra-processed sugary foods. She overall has been a big help with our busy lives, but we are now seeing our daughter hide things from us and being sneaky. Am I wrong for not letting my mom watch or stay alone with our daughter anymore?"

• 50:38Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I got hemorrhoids now. Thanks for this question. Just inside, wandered out on this one. Oh geez. Here's the thing. I'm all about eating healthy. I guess there's just context here. Let your kid's grandparent spoil your kid for crying out loud. I know it's cool to be this like, over the top, like, "I will never..." Dude, I want my parents to spoil my kids. I want somebody to be like, "I know y'all never eat a Kit Kat in your

• 51:18Dr. John Delony?

  house. I got you." I want that. And I don't like that. I don't give them Kit Kats, but I kind of like that they have some understanding that moderation and fun and whatever is good.

• 51:33Dr. John Delony?

  I'm guessing that they are hiding things, not just because of the food, but because of the environment of the house, which is there are rigid, this never is inflexible ever, and the kids are learning at a very young age. Whoa, whoa.

• 51:52Dr. John Delony?

  So that'd be my guess. If, on the other hand, if your kids have food allergies, if you have some very strong moral or religious or whatever convictions about food and your mom is lying to you, then she's probably gonna lie about other things, about what they're watching, about how much time they're on screens. And so I think, yes, you're right to have some concerns there. I like to always ask myself, am I putting people in a position where they have to lie to me? I want to take ownership of that first and say, um, am I being unreasonable in my request for things? And then am I playing 20 questions or playing gotcha to try to figure it out? If I'm creating an environment where I'm basically encouraging someone to lie to me, that's on me. If somebody is consciously listening to my values and the things are important to me

• 52:36Dr. John Delony?

  and going around and then lying to me, then yes, I'm gonna protect my kids. That's what I would say. So I need more context to say who's the problem here, but that's just my unfiltered opinion on that. What do you think? Who's the problem there, Kelly?

• 52:52Speaker 04

  This is, uh, this is hard. I grew up with an almond mom and so-

• 52:56Dr. John Delony?

  What's an almond mom?

• 52:57Speaker 04

  Um, a mom that is very vocal of like foods that you should and should not eat.

• 53:03Dr. John Delony?

  Ah.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  So like I don't, I don't eat like fettuccine alfredo because I was told it was really bad for me.

• 53:09Dr. John Delony?

  Gotcha.

• 53:10Speaker 04

  Um, so-

• 53:11Dr. John Delony?

  It is delicious.

• 53:13Speaker 04

  I'll have to try it.

• 53:13Dr. John Delony?

  It gives me the G A S, but it is delicious.

• 53:17Speaker 04

  Um, I think this is like all within moderation. Like I think like,

• 53:24Speaker 04

  like when you go to grandma's house, like you're obviously gonna eat cake and like have fun and like you're building those memories. But I think like there's a proper way to teach your kids about food and when it's just restrict, restrict, of course, they're gonna be hiding it and indulging in it. And so I think it's how do you approach the conversation of like, yes, and?

• 53:41Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I love that. And if you're, I guess for all parents, be very clear about the hills you're gonna die on. Because, um, if you die on every hill, then either A, nobody will watch your kids, nobody will want to be in your life, or, um, everyone's gonna be just telling you what you want to hear. So here's, in my house, we eat healthy almost all the time. And I don't ever, I grew up, I had locks on the pantry when I was a kid. There were locks on the pantry. I was maniacal about eating, right? But there are locks on the pantry. I don't want my kids to have that environment. I want them to know, there's some candy up there, and one a week is what we do in this house.

• 54:24Dr. John Delony?

  It's just who we are. So it's not never, never, never, never. And also, when I pull my wrappers out of my pockets, my kids can see, they know, oh, dad's had a crazy day. Right? Just like Kelly 1.0 can, just like all, like my manager, everybody knows, like, oh, if John's eating candy, like, uh-oh, he's tired, or he's not doing well, right? My kids can see that, right? And so I want them to know that. But here's a hill I will die on. If you hand my kid, um, an un- un- an unobstructed cellphone, they're not coming to your house. Friends, I don't care who you are, right? If you just hand my kid, like, ah, it's just pornography, it's fine, your parents are overdramatic.

• 55:05Dr. John Delony?

  They were never gonna, so, but there is a hill we will die on. There's one or two hills. If you are, um, if you're a racist idiot, my kid's not gonna come to your house. I won't have them there, because I don't want them in that world. So there's a couple of hills I'll die on, but would you down every hill? Just jeez Louise. And so find some things that your parents can spoil your kids on. We're gonna stay up too late, we're gonna have pizza, we're gonna, whatever those things are, and you teach your kids, not always, but sometimes, right? And yeah, I, if it's just restrict, restrict, restrict, restrict, human nature is, I will find a way around that, because I want to know what that is. And that, it doesn't mean, everything, everything, everything. Some boundaries are good.

• 55:50Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know, dude. Still, I, this, this episode's brought to you by Preparation H. Because jeez Louise. Love you guys. Candy's okay, sometimes. Bye.