Lucy Kalanithi: What Loss Can Teach Us About Living (The Perspective Shift That Changes Everything)

Ten years after the loss of her husband, neurosurgeon and bestselling author Paul Kalanithi, Dr. Lucy Kalanithi reflects on how grief continues to evolve rather than disappear. In this deeply moving conversation with Jay, she shares what it means to find purpose alongside pain, why the goal isn't to fix suffering but to make meaning from it, and how staying present through life's hardest moments can transform the way we love, heal, and truly live. In this episode you'll learn: How to Live Through Grief How to Support Someone Grieving How to Talk About Death How to Stay Present Through Pain How to Comfort Without Trying to Fix How to Honor Loved Ones How to Raise Resilient Children No matter what season of life you're in, remember that joy and sorrow can exist side by side. Healing isn't about leaving pain behind, it's about learning to carry it with greater compassion, presence, and hope. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:20 Life After Loss 03:22 A New Perspective on Death 07:15 Does Time Really Heal? 08:36 Does Everything Happen for a Reason? 11:12 Helping Someone at the End of Their Life 15:33 The Biggest Myth About Grief 17:56 Preparing for Death 23:08 Lessons From Facing Death 30:28 You Are Stronger Than You Think 35:33 Let Your Child Find Meaning On Their Own 40:02 Choosing Family Despite Uncertainty 43:48 A Different Way to Grieve 47:38 Keeping a Loved One Alive After They’re Gone 50:33 Can You Love Again? 53:23 What Real Partnership Means 57:19 Letting Go vs. Giving Up 01:02:39 Sitting With the Dying 01:05:58 Sharing Life-Changing News 01:08:41 How to Live Well Episode Resources: LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucy-kalanithi-baab214 X | https://x.com/rocketgirlmd See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with wifi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favourite podcast. Choose a cellar or North East Regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip. This episode is brought to you by Orange Theory Fitness. One of the best investments you can make is in your own strength. The choices you make today can help shape how you feel for years to come. Orange Theory Fitness provides a one-hour workout to build strength, burn fat and build

• 0:44Jay Shetty?

  muscle with an expert coach guiding you every step of the way. Head to orangetheory.com/onpurpose to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage in studio for details. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. Confidence isn't something Mazda finds, it's something they practise. That's the thinking behind every Mazda. With proactive safety features designed to help keep you more aware, more connected and more engaged with the road ahead. It's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand and has won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus Awards than any other car brand as of July 2026.

• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  Visit www.iihs.org to learn more. A lot can happen when an accident doesn't. Visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Ten years after losing her husband, Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks like after a decade.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  He ultimately got the news that he had a chest X-ray. It essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like dense with tumors. We both knew what it meant. I never thought I was going to feel okay. It was like Paul died and I was like, it's all over.

• 2:03Jay Shetty?

  What did being so close to death teach you about life and living?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  There's two big questions. What would be left undone? And how can I live most fully in the time I have left?

• 2:19Jay Shetty?

  Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is Dr Lucy Kalanithi. Ten years after losing her husband, bestselling author and neurosurgeon Paul Kalanithi, Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks like after a decade, how love evolves after loss, and what being so close to death can teach us about being fully alive. Lucy Kalanithi, welcome to On Purpose.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:47Jay Shetty?

  I have waited for this conversation since I've read the book, When Breath Becomes Air. And I read it when I still lived in New York, when I moved to the States. And it moved me so much because I hadn't really come across a book like that, that felt like it was written at such a powerful moment and such a pivotal moment in someone's life. And then to have your reflections within it as well, it's kind of left an imprint on me. And then my team and I were sitting down and we're thinking about books that had an impact on us as a team. And this came to mind immediately. And so I can't tell

• 3:30Jay Shetty?

  you how grateful I am for your time and energy for the trip over here. I know you've traveled here especially to be with us in LA. And just want to start off by saying thank you.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 3:40Jay Shetty?

  Tell me, what does it feel like remembering Paul 10 years on?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I used to think life was like a mountain that you climb, like I'll follow the path and then I'll get where I'm going. And now, like, having lost Paul, having taken our daughter from being a baby to now being a seventh grader, I think of life much more as like a series of moments. In a way, it's like that my marriage and Paul's illness and even medical school, right? Those were all mixed together, medical school residency, being married, losing him. That was like a chapter. And now I'm in such a different chapter. It's actually kind of amazing for the opportunity to like dip back in, like to get sort of like... Talking about Paul in a way that's really embodied because you're also experiencing him and we're talking about him in like, in a real way.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  And at the same time, he's like sprinkled through my life all over the place. Like, you know, I'll go through like a breakup and think like, what would Paul say, you know, in this situation to me, to him? And also just like, what would Paul think of Katie? She's so different. She's such a like singular, specific person, not a baby, you know? So I guess like the things I can say about it are like 10 years on, you know, I never thought I was gonna feel okay. It was like Paul died and I was like, it's all over. Who am I? What happened? Like, it's me and I'm here and I have this baby, but I'm so lonely. How is this ever gonna fill in? And my mom said like, things will fill in, it'll become okay. And I was like, I literally don't believe you.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  But it's like, things do, like, things become okay. And then at the same time, like, even after you lose someone, like, they don't even remain static, even though they're gone. Like, you're not static. You continue to learn new things about them. You know, with Paul, I hear from Paul's readers about his book and that's sort of like an ongoing relationship with him through other people. Anyway, I guess it's all just like a beautiful, terrible mix.

• 5:38Jay Shetty?

  Thank you for sharing that. Is there, is there anything you understand differently about Paul?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like, the thing that makes me feel like when I burst into tears is actually a thing I don't yet understand, which is, you know, Paul, he was a doctor. He was a young neurosurgeon, really interested in meaning and mortality, like, thought he would become a professor of philosophy or a writer and then sort of surprised himself by going into medicine. And was incredibly intoxicated by neurosurgery because the brain is just an organ in our body, like our liver, like our heart, but then it's also the seat of identity. And he was so interested in, okay, if you're undergoing like, brain trauma, a stroke. You know, a tumor, how does that alter your identity and meaning, but also how does

• 6:25Speaker 01

  like neurosurgery alter your sense of identity? He was really interested in patients who were facing like upheavals in meaning and identity. Then he himself became sick, had to face this whole upheaval, had to face the end of his life. And I felt like as Paul was going through this serious illness and dying, I really felt immediately in it with him. I felt so like fused with him. We had to do so many things together to take care of him, to make sure the book got written, to cope, to like show up for each other in like every way. But I wonder whether like when

• 7:06Speaker 01

  and if something happens to me and I'm sick and dying, if I'll read Paul's book and see how much I didn't understand and see like new things in the words or like reflect on his experience and think like, oh, was he alone in that? And so like that sort of breaks my heart. Like, what did I miss? You know, in answer to your question of like, how have I gotten to know Paul differently? Yeah. I mean, when someone dies, like stories come rushing in. And then I think reading his book at different phases of my own life, I even get different things, even though I knew him so well. And then I think, you know, just the process, there's a flip side, which is like, how to not flatten someone after they die. Like, I think like when

• 7:48Speaker 01

  someone dies, they're sort of suddenly they become like so amazing and perfect. And I can't believe we lost this person. And all those things are true. But at the same time, it's like, he like, you know, left his socks on the floor and it annoyed me. Like, you know, just, he was just a regular person and he was funny and he drank too much whiskey and he like, just, he was like textured, you know? And so I often think about like, all the things I do remember about him. How do I keep those like in memory and keep him like complicated instead of like mythic?

• 8:21Jay Shetty?

  Both of those answers to what you said, you almost feel like you don't understand, which maybe you never will until we're all in the same position and going through something similar. And when we're facing not loss through someone else, but loss of ourselves,

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:37Jay Shetty?

  there may be certain things that we miss on that journey and we don't recognize. And and maybe we shouldn't until.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, couldn't. Yeah, exactly. But then on the flip side, the idea that you're saying that it's almost like sometimes we don't celebrate people until they're gone.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:55Jay Shetty?

  And we only see all the bad things.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Isn't that interesting?

• 8:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And then, as you're saying, on the flip side, when someone goes, we only see the good things.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 9:03Jay Shetty?

  And it's so fascinating how the mind does that.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:06Jay Shetty?

  I guess he would know as a neuroscientist, like he'd know why we why we do that.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, good question.

• 9:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and where that comes from, like, why is it that we kind of?

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Right, like, what's the neuroscience of grief?

• 9:17Jay Shetty?

  The neuroscience of that grief of how we block people's good things when they're alive and block people's, you know, bad things when they're gone and.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Right, or is it about remembering, like, remember to notice when you have your person here and then, yeah, when they leave, remember to, yeah, don't forget.

• 9:32Jay Shetty?

  When you hear the age-old phrase, "Time heals all wounds," how does that sit with you?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  I mean, it's sort of like simplistic and it actually makes it sound like the wounds will then go away. And so I don't believe that part, but I do believe, I do think time heals all wounds in a certain way. Prince Harry was writing about grief and he said something like, um, grief is a wound that festers. I was sort of like, oh, I don't agree with that because if something festers, it's like untended, right? And so I do think, like, there will always be a scar. There will always be something that looks different, feels different, something you're carrying, something you're literally carrying on your body. Like, that's also how grief feels. I think if you can sort of think to yourself, like, it's going to be okay in some way,

• 10:19Speaker 01

  you just don't know what okay means, and like, sort of let the pain move through you, you will end up somewhere, you know, that's different and better than you thought.

• 10:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's it's interesting how all these statements have stood the test of time, but they have so much nuance when you're actually living them.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and some of them don't work, right?

• 10:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Or you you have to decide which ones work for you. Like, if someone sends you a card with something on it, or if someone says, you know, everything happens for a reason and you don't believe that, it's not helpful. But you're right, I think many of those, like. Things in literature, sayings like that, hold up.

• 10:56Jay Shetty?

  What do you feel about that one? Everything happens for a reason.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I don't subscribe to that necessarily. But I think more than I did before, I think when hard things happen, I do believe something beautiful will come out of it. Something, even if the only thing that comes out of it is that you suffered, which connects you to every human being everywhere across time ever. And then potentially deepens your empathy for other people or deepens your ability to be a friend or, you know, whatever it might be. So, and then I think like, suffering, have you read Man's Search for Meaning?

• 11:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, of course.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 11:38Jay Shetty?

  No, no, no.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  It's so gorgeous. No, no, I, you're saying, yeah, I'm not surprised you read it. That's why I say, and like Viktor Frankl, who, you know, survived the Holocaust in a concentration camp and then went on to become a therapist afterward. He talks about witnessing all of these people and how they survived the unsurvivable. And he ends up talking about like how purpose or relationships, like you wouldn't survive just because you had those, but you could only survive if you had something you were waiting for or someone who was waiting for you on the other side. And ultimately, he ends up talking about how suffering is actually a really meaningful part of our lives. He says like, his construction is that meaning comes from three things.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  And he says, he conceives of work and love and suffering. And I love that. He says, work is like the things you do and create, you know, like the imprint you leave on the world, maybe. Love is like all the types of love between people. And then gratitude also, and just like love writ large. And then suffering, he talks about how like, suffering is not this sort of like side event that you wish would go away. It is here, it will be here. Whether something beautiful comes out of it, whether it connects you to other people or whether just like the pure achievement of just persisting alone.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  I think there is like actual meaning in that. And so I think the idea of like, everything happens for a reason. It's like a reason will be found, but only you can find it. No one can tell you what it is and no one can tell you that it's okay. Like that's only yours and maybe it takes years.

• 13:16Jay Shetty?

  I appreciate that. And the idea that there wasn't some predetermined reason or some reason that had to be the way it was a journey of discovery.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think some people think that. And that's also like a beautiful story or a beautiful, you know?

• 13:32Jay Shetty?

  What for you was actually helpful, as you just talked about the need for relationships, the need for meaning, what was useful to hear from your relationships at the time?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:43Jay Shetty?

  And what do you find useful now?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:46Jay Shetty?

  And helpful?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  This isn't about other people, actually, but this was a really helpful thing for me is,

• 13:53Speaker 01

  so Paul got sick and we were both doctors and there was something in that that was immensely helpful. And obviously, like the privilege and logistics and all of that kind of stuff that came out of like being a healthcare person and a doctor was very helpful. But the thing that was the most helpful was having spent years and years taking care of sick people and their families and thinking like terrible things can happen to wonderful people, whether it's like a car crash or sudden diagnosis of cancer. And so when he was diagnosed, like at one point I was like, whatever you need to do to cope, go for it. Like, would you like to punch a wall? We have all these walls. Like, they're all yours. And he was

• 14:35Speaker 01

  like, I don't need to. And I was like, I don't need to either. Like, what's that about? And I think it was kind of like, okay, turns out like it's our turn to like be the people who are doing this. So it was really helpful to sort of like have that perspective. And Paul, in his writing, wrote, you know, like, people often ask, don't you ask why me? And he said, well, why not me? Do you think is really beautiful? And in terms of like, what was helpful for us in terms of coping, I felt like the most important thing was just to feel witnessed. I actually didn't need anyone to try to fix it, to try to like, say something that was going to fix it or that it was okay. Like,

• 15:15Speaker 01

  one of the best condolence cards I got after Paul died was, it just said, this sucks, really big. And I was like, oh, so amazing. And it also wasn't like too flowery or too like perfect or whatever. It was just like, this is how this person feels. This is definitely how I feel. Also, it's still funny. Like, even when you're dying, you're still you, you know, like, you're still funny. Like, one thing that did that was really helpful for Paul, actually, when he was sick. You know, he was a thirty six and thirty seven year old neurosurgeon, right? So he's used to being like, like, healthy, dominant, in charge, in control, and then like loses all of that in an instant.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  So when people would come to visit and hang out, they'd say, like, I'm coming to visit, like, what can I do that's helpful? And I was like, just come and hang out and like, be, just like, be you, like, be funny. Like, ask Paul for career advice, you know, if that's what you would do anyway, like, just because he's dying, like, doesn't mean he doesn't want to know what's going on with you. He's not like radioactive. He's not different. You know, I think illness can be so flattening. It's like, people get sick and it's like humor zips out of the room, like sexuality zips out of the room and like, you're just like, I'm still me, like, I'm still me, just the same and I'm losing all of these abilities, but I also still have all these capacities. So I think just like making room for

• 16:38Speaker 01

  people's full self and people to be like agentic and be, if that's a word, be an agent and like be a full person.

• 16:46Jay Shetty?

  I think we all lose our powers when we love someone and they lose someone.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 16:49Jay Shetty?

  And I think for a lot of people listening and watching, I think a lot of people become distant.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Totally, because you don't really know what to do. Yeah. And I think like showing up is half the thing. And then also, it's like, I do think there's something to like being specific, you know, like people often say, like, let me know if there's any way you can help. And you really mean it.

• 17:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  And I've done that. But I think when you're the sick person, it's like you are quite overwhelmed. And so it is useful to just like, keep offering a little thing with no pressure. Like, I had some friends whose baby was in the hospital and The husband was like, the best thing anyone ever did for us was say like, I'm at the mall next door getting a burger. Like, what do you want on yours? I'll drop it off in 20. And they were just like, the works, thanks. And then like, they didn't even have to talk to the person. Just like, you know, that kind of stuff. Hey, like, do you need babysitting this week? Like, let me know.

• 17:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Like, I'm dropping off food. Do you want me to ring the doorbell or just let you know, just text you when it's there? Just like, something that has no pressure, but also is like, present and keep doing it.

• 17:52Jay Shetty?

  What do you think most people misinterpret about grief?

• 17:55Speaker 01

  One thing is like, oh, if I say something, I'm gonna remind her. Or if I say, what if I say something and I make her sad? And I think when you're a grieving person, you're thinking about it all the time. It's present for you all the time. And so I think if somebody says like, hey, I heard what happened. I've been thinking about you, you know? Hey, I heard what happened. Like, how are you doing today? Is there anything I can do? It doesn't remind you, it just makes you feel seen and connected at a time when like, it's really hard to feel connected. My mom said this amazing thing when we were growing up. She used to say, when in doubt, describe. And it basically meant like, even if you don't know what's happening for you, or even if you don't know the perfect, perfect thing to say,

• 18:41Speaker 01

  like, you can just describe what's going on. So you can just say like, I heard that so and so died. It's really sad. I've been thinking about you so much. I wish I knew the perfect thing to say, and I don't, but I want you to know I love you. And like that, doesn't that sound so cozy and nice? And it's like, they didn't have to say a special, perfect, wise thing. They just described, you know? So I think that's also really helpful.

• 19:07Jay Shetty?

  Describing what you're going through is sometimes better than trying to say the perfect thing or the right thing. Yeah, absolutely. To just be like, this is the worst day ever.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, this is hard.

• 19:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, this is hard. Yeah, this is, this is really difficult.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:20Jay Shetty?

  Is so much more, I don't know, there's something about it that opens up the heart rather than closes it.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 19:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, just, it's almost acceptance.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I just come sit with you? This looks so hard.

• 19:32Jay Shetty?

  Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, to admit that to ourselves. That's what we struggle to do. What was, I've, it's been really interesting as I was preparing for this interview. I've had friends who've, I mean, I've lost friends to cancer over the last few years. I've lost spiritual mentors, I've lost friends.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:48Jay Shetty?

  And Different scenarios, but I had a friend recently who is going through it in the States. His partner's a doctor, but he's not.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:58Jay Shetty?

  And his partner wasn't as supportive as he wanted them to be.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 20:04Jay Shetty?

  Because to him, cancer felt like the big C word that was scary from the moment he heard it. But her take was, you're gonna be fine, they're gonna figure it out.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Uh huh, uh huh.

• 20:14Jay Shetty?

  And I was wondering, what were the kinds of conversations you both had as both being doctors? And what was the most important conversation you think you had at that time?

• 20:24Speaker 01

  The way Paul got diagnosed was, um, he'd been getting sicker and sicker. And then he ultimately got the news that he had a chest X-ray. It essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like dense with tumors. We both knew what it meant. You know, we're going to the hospital tomorrow for a CT scan. It's going to show, you know, metastatic cancer. And it was so interesting because as we were packing for this hospital stay, he was gonna go and get expedited work up. I was packing like practical things like phone charger, insurance card, like fuzzy socks or whatever. And he packed books. It was so interesting. He packed Being in Time by Heidegger and Mirror Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  And then a novel called Cancer Ward by Solson, Solson Nitsen. And it was this sort of like immediate recognition of like, the doctor stuff is not going to help me. Like, I need to turn to words and literature and, or I just need to turn to like the human experience of this. And for him, that was like, oh, I'm back to literature. So that was really interesting. I think one of the most important conversations was right away, which was, we ended up looking at the CT scan ourselves and sort of like wordlessly absorbing this diagnosis of like, it was like looking at a patient's scan and then you're like, oh my gosh, it's you, like it's you. And then we like got into the hospital bed together. And then he said, I want you to remarry.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Before we almost talked about anything, which was really beautiful, like beautiful, and felt so sort of like shocking at the time, but then there's like all these layers to that. Like, the biggest one is like, "I love you" into a future where I will not be there. Like, that's amazing. That's such a like, an amazing kind of love. And people have it, right? People have it for their children. People have it for their spouse. It's like, "I love you forever, independent of my existence," right? But he also was saying with that sentence, like, it was so stark that it was kind of like, "Okay, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go there immediately and then implicitly tell you, like, we can talk about

• 22:39Speaker 01

  anything." And that was really helpful, like, super, super helpful. And I think, like, the battle metaphor for cancer is so pervasive. Like, it started with, like, Nixon's war on cancer, but then now it extends to, like, individual level. Like, we'll beat it, we'll fight it, we're gonna win. Surviving. Yeah, surviving. And I think that metaphor is so flimsy, you know? Interesting. Like, it's sort of like, there's winners and losers, and there's like, one thing you're supposed to do here, and it's just like, survive at all costs. And I think there's, like, when you survey people with cancer, there's like, so many things people hope for. It's like, people hope for dignity, people hope for, like, functionality as long as possible, people hope that their loved ones will be okay. I don't know, there was

• 23:24Speaker 01

  sort of just like, this panoply of hopes that I think, like, we knew to, like, sidestep the battle metaphor, which was really helpful. And then I think part of that was just, we knew how sick he was. We couldn't get away from it. We could not escape, like, understanding how sick he was, which was like, the worst part, but in some ways, the best part. Yeah. Because then we could decide what to do.

• 23:55Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs helps find quality candidates when you need the most. You can reach who you need based on whatever criteria you're looking for, like skills, certifications, or location. In fact, people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast.

• 24:39Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is the chance to step outside of our routine. Travel is a way of slowing us down and shifting our perspective. And with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, every journey becomes even more rewarding. Earn four times the points on flights and hotels booked direct. Enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges, three times the points on dining, and reserve exclusive tables. Learn more at chase.com/sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank,

• 25:23Jay Shetty?

  NA member FDIC. Subject to credit approval, terms apply.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in wearable. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com applewatchseries12.

• 26:07Jay Shetty?

  What I'm hearing you say is that it's, it wasn't the doctor conversation or the medical conversation, because that was almost accepting what was in front of you.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:17Jay Shetty?

  But it was the conversations that you both allowed each other to have, beyond the knowledge that you both were aware of.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, luckily. And at the same time, like, I make it sound easy and it like totally was. It was so, so painful and like so confusing. And just so, like, it took months, months for us to like, even feel like we had our feet on the ground, you know? And then things are like, it's a constantly shifting landscape, you know?

• 26:41Jay Shetty?

  And he's going through his emotions, you're going through yours, like, I can't imagine that they align every day, every moment. When I wonder about just the work that you're doing as well, and as we kind of navigate this conversation, I'm like, I know that in my life, when I lose someone I'm close to, especially when they're around the same age, there's something different than when I lose someone older. Because at least when someone's older or add an AIDS, that feels appropriate. For loss, there's that story that you can tell yourself. Whereas I lost one of my monk friends. He was still a monk when he passed away. We lived in the monastery together, but he passed away a few years back now, and he died of stage four colon cancer.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:27Jay Shetty?

  And he was like maybe two years older than me.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:29Jay Shetty?

  And I remember watching him through the whole journey, present with him, talking to him on the phone, seeing him when I could when I went back and visited him. And I almost feel like I learned so much more from him about life than I've ever taught or known. And I wanted to know, like, what did being so close to death teach you about life and living?

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard to separate, actually, like, being so close to death and being so close to Paul. Because it was like so embodied. You know, and it's funny, it's like you're talking about your friend dying and like what a surprise that is when someone young dies. And it's like, the way I've ended up like conceiving of it is sort of like, turns out that's what was gonna happen. Like, that helps me a lot, actually. I think like being so close to someone who's dying. Actually taught me something about dying, which is that until you die, you're alive. You know, like what happened for Paul was like, he got, he was a neurosurgeon, got diagnosed with cancer, worked for a year as a neurosurgeon.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Like, this is who I am. This is what I care about. Then I got pregnant during that year on purpose. Then he had sort of serendipitously, and because he was a beautiful writer, transitioned to writing first essays and then a memoir. And so he sort of like built a new vocation during the time that he was sick. And it's like, he was so sick and so like debilitated and still, like physically still and like wan, you know? He was ill. And at the same time, he was so like engaged in what he was doing, like so just sort of like intellectually engaged in the world of ideas

• 29:19Speaker 01

  and in the world of relationships too, like being a new dad. And it was just really interesting to, to see. Like, one of the book reviews of Paul's book was by this doctor named Gavin Francis. And he wrote, like, this book is unforgettable, or this book is something, it is crackling with life. And I just remember thinking like, oh, how amazing to be crackling with life when you're dying. And I think the same thing is true with aging. The same thing is true with like disability or patienthood. It's like, there's this idea that like, you know, something about like a human identity is taken from you when you're aging. But it's like, some of my favorite people are little old ladies who are so giggly and hilarious and like not afraid of anything, you know?

• 30:02Speaker 01

  And like, I used to think like little old lady. And now I think like, gosh, like Spitfire, who like knows everything? And like, you know, nothing shocks her. And so I think the thing, it taught me also as a doctor, you know, like just how totally human, like.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Everyone is, you know, and I think when you're at work as a doctor, there's so much dehumanization. It's like you're at work, you're rushing around, you're hungry, you have to go to the bathroom, you have to get to the OR. And so it's like, all of the families like sleeping on the sofas outside the ICU are sort of the furniture, like they're the furniture at work because you're doing your job. But also it's like you're constantly toggling between like, this is the worst day of this person's life and I have 36 minutes with them. And then in answer to your question for real about like, what can dying teach us about being alive and living? Dying is like the, one of the most human things we do. It's like, it's too big for any model. It's too big for a medical model. It's too big for like, a lot of religious models. It's not a medical event.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  It's like a human thing. Frank Ostasewski, he's like a Buddhist teacher who founded Zen Hospice in San Francisco. So gorgeous, he's so beautiful. And like, he talks about how dying is all about relationships. So interesting. It's like your relationship to yourself, your relationship to people you love, your relationship to like holiness, whatever that would be. He's like, it explodes every kind of relationship. And then Ira Byock, who's this like really beautiful doctor here actually, talks about like, having worked with a lot of people who are dying and then like, you know, what they have to teach to people who are living. And he's like, it's two big questions that he uncovers. He says, what would be left undone or unsaid if I died now?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  You know, like, how can I live most fully in the time I have left? You know? And I think there is sort of a like transcendence in just like, death is not like something that happens like at the end of the road. It's like, it is here all the time. It is something you can like tap into like finitude or transcendence, like even like a traffic jam and you're just like, huh, road rage, I'm going where I'm going. I hate these people, they're in my way. Like, it's like, no, like, you are the people, you are the traffic. Everyone in this traffic jam like, was a tiny baby, like will be on a deathbed, has someone who loves them who will be like bereft when they're gone, like God willing, right? And so like, suddenly zooming out to that, you're like, who cares about the traffic?

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Everything's beautiful. So I don't know. I think there's like a real like luminosity that can be found, like when someone's dying.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And then at the same time, like, traffic jams suck.

• 32:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  And like, you know, when someone's dying, you also have to like make dinner and, you know, pick up the prescription. But I think it's like a constant toggle between like

• 32:56Jay Shetty?

  Zooming in and zooming out.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  bullshit and transcendence, you know, which is like, hopefully what we can all do like every day.

• 33:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's zooming in, zooming out.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:04Jay Shetty?

  As you said, yeah. Like, for a few months now, my team and I have been creating these zoomed out versions, when you were describing that.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:12Jay Shetty?

  Of almost like city crosswalks, parks. Yeah. And, and we just, we place these little thoughts on what everyone's going through.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  What?

• 33:22Jay Shetty?

  And, and people are like moving around in the park or sometimes it's

• 33:26Speaker 01

  And you like ascribe like a story?

• 33:28Jay Shetty?

  Correct.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Oh, I play that game with my kid.

• 33:30Jay Shetty?

  Oh, wow. Oh, no way. Tell me about that.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  We just play that like at dinner and stuff. We're out to dinner.

• 33:34Jay Shetty?

  And you look around.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We'll be like, what are they talking about? And then you'll be like, oh, this person just walked by, like his dog's name. Sometimes it's just sort of like silly.

• 33:42Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  It's like, his dog's name is Peanut and just make it up. But sometimes it's like, oh, like, do you think he's just gone through a breakup? Like, look at his face.

• 33:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Oh, like, just, we just sort of make it up like as a way to pass the time. But it is sort of like an empathy game.

• 33:56Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. Yeah. So, so we're doing exactly the same thing, except creating it on social media and sharing them as stories for people to zoom out a little bit. And so we'll take different scenes, whether it's an airport or whether it's a park or whether it's a crosswalk and we'll have lots of people walking around. And we'll just put little stories on, on top of them. I love thinking that way.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:17Jay Shetty?

  Because I always know that if I cut someone off in traffic, I feel I have a good reason.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 34:22Jay Shetty?

  But if someone cuts me off in traffic.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  It's like the fundamental attribution error. You're like, they're an asshole. I have a great reason.

• 34:27Jay Shetty?

  Exactly.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what are you trying to show? Are you just trying to show like, everyone has like a rich life as rich as yours?

• 34:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And we're not alone in our suffering.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:36Jay Shetty?

  So you may feel like you're suffering right now. You're definitely not alone.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:41Jay Shetty?

  That everyone you meet may simply be projecting their own suffering onto you. And it isn't a reflection of who you are.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Oh, totally.

• 34:48Jay Shetty?

  And everyone has a story.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Everyone has a thing.

• 34:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:52Jay Shetty?

  And so just trying to help us. I guess transcend, but then I like your version of it's still bullshit traffic. So I need to make one of that one. I think we need to end it with that. I think you've found the perfect ending.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so cool. I can't wait to see that, Jay.

• 35:07Jay Shetty?

  No, as you're saying, it was just, it's helpful hearing it from you. As you're answering these questions, I'm so, honestly, like it's stirring so much within me because

• 35:19Jay Shetty?

  when you sit down with someone who's really done the work and really had to work through grief and really had to think through this loss on such a personal level,

• 35:29Jay Shetty?

  your answers are beyond any logic in a beautiful way.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 35:35Jay Shetty?

  And they're counterintuitive almost. And that's what's so helpful and refreshing and yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  You know what's so weird though is like partly it helps you and then partly it doesn't. Cause like the next thing that comes is also really hard. Like sometimes I think that about talking about Paul and like going through that experience. Like Paul's memoir came out a little under a year after he died. And then I immediately went on a book tour, like an unexpected book tour and was like processing in real time, like what had happened. Really just like aching through grief and describing it. And now I'm describing like, I went through this process and what came out of it, which is like a wonderful thing. But then like the things that are happening for me, like I talked to somebody the other day, actually, who said this, who said like, oh, I'm raising this like challenging teenager

• 36:27Speaker 01

  and it's the hardest thing I've ever done. And then she was like, well, I told a friend that and the friend said, wait a second. Like 12 years ago, your wife had cancer and you had young children. Isn't that the hardest thing you've ever done? And she was like, oh, it is. It definitely is. But right now this feels like the hardest thing, like it's the new hardest thing.

• 36:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  You know, but at the same time, I think you end up realizing like, okay, I've done a hard thing before. You know, like Jane Fonda on Julia Louis-Dreyfus's podcast. She was like, people always say that being old is hard. And she's like, no, being young is hard. She's like, being old is amazing. Like you've been through so many things, you know, you can do it. And I was like, that's awesome.

• 37:09Jay Shetty?

  If we're able to pull from that well.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:12Jay Shetty?

  Of experience and tragedy. And if we're able to look at it and go, because I think, I think, I think humans don't give themselves enough credit for how much they've survived.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Same.

• 37:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. We don't give ourselves enough credit because we don't, we don't look back at that moment and think we were strong. We look back at it and think we were weak.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  That's so interesting.

• 37:29Jay Shetty?

  And that we just.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Or like, I was a stupid teenager. And then you're like, no, you had to learn that.

• 37:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  There's no other way to learn that.

• 37:35Jay Shetty?

  Exactly. And like owning that is what gives you what I think what you're sharing, which is, oh, I can look back and think, wow, I got through the hard and, and I, I can relate to that. I mean, I remember talking to my mom once. And my mom is not someone who gives me motivational advice or gives me wisdom. She's loving and caring, but not.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:53Jay Shetty?

  A wise sage in her words. And I remember I was going through my most difficult fight yet at a certain point in my life around nine years ago. And I was talking to my mom and she was asking me how I was and what I ate for dinner, which it was usually our conversation. And I just said to her, I was like, yeah, you know, I'm just, I'm doing all right. I'm just stressed out, doing a bit, you know? And, and I would say that in a passing way.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 38:16Jay Shetty?

  And she said, you're good at dealing with stress. And I was like, what do you, like, my mom doesn't just say.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  That was so helpful.

• 38:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, when you were in my womb, you went through a lot of stress.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  That's so beautiful.

• 38:31Jay Shetty?

  And it was like.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna cry.

• 38:33Jay Shetty?

  It gave me so.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Such a gift.

• 38:35Jay Shetty?

  So much. It, it's still what I turn to when I need strength.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 38:42Jay Shetty?

  It broke through the challenge I had at that time. Like, it gave me all the resilience and conviction I needed because my mom just reminded me that.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Whoa, that's so beautiful.

• 38:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it was, it was unbelievable.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  It's so amazing too, because she's saying like, that's such an embodied thing because like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna cry. Because like, she's telling you like, you're, the fact that you were in, in a fetus, right?

• 39:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  She's telling you like, your body already knows how to do this. Like, your body did this before you, like, could even, when you were pre-verbal.

• 39:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Wow, what a like amazing form of trust she gave you and yourself.

• 39:16Jay Shetty?

  I've been thinking a lot about this idea of the stories of your parents and the stories of your ancestors. And when I think about the stories of my parents, which I learned early on, but not in as much detail as I wished. I just heard about how much they went through. And I was thinking about this with Katie is where I'm going with this.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:35Jay Shetty?

  And it's almost like I didn't live that with them. I didn't live in those homes they grew up in. My dad grew up in the slums in India. My, my mom grew up in a war torn country. They both moved to England, you know, and they got married. And when I think about that, I'm like, wow, that is, that's so difficult. And my parents did something really hard.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:54Jay Shetty?

  My mom was studying for her exams when she had soldiers on her rooftop.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Wow, yeah.

• 39:58Jay Shetty?

  And my dad shared a bathroom with like 25 families.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:04Jay Shetty?

  And when I think about it, I think, God, that is insane. And, and then when you think and you're like, but I come from that.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 40:10Jay Shetty?

  Like, like I come from that and like what?

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:12Jay Shetty?

  And so I wonder when like for Katie, who.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:16Jay Shetty?

  As we were talking about earlier, like doesn't necessarily know her, her father. But how do you think about?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:23Jay Shetty?

  Creating that experience for her in, in helping her make sense of it.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  It's interesting that you're saying this thing about your parents because like the hardest thing is when your parents lay it out for you, right? Like you do need to sort of absorb it yourself.

• 40:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  You know, like.

• 40:38Jay Shetty?

  They can't be like, I did this.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're like, okay. But like, it's so beautiful that you really absorbed it. So it's like, I guess I hope Katie will do that. You know, from reading Paul's book or from like watching me and, you know, being me. Whatever she takes from that. But I think, I think so much about how to like give her sort of like spaciousness, like support and spaciousness to like figure out what it all means to her. You know, because she's her own person. Her childhood is very different from mine in this other way, right? Like she has the hardship of losing a parent. I didn't. She's like decidedly not Paul. She's decidedly not me.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  She's very specific. I think none of us honestly, like. Comes to appreciate that our parents are like full human beings. Like I remember in my twenties being like, wait a second, my dad is not a professional dad. He's like a dude. He's just a dude. Like, that explains so much. Like, that explains so much in a really like gorgeous way. You know, he's like someone who's just amazingly doing his best. Katie has fewer like signposts to know who Paul was. But she has this book to read and the book essentially says, like, it's important to try hard. It's important to do your best.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  And I love you. Like he's, you know, Paul wrote so much about striving and about struggling to find meaning and about, you know, like about facing death squarely. And then at the end, he like stops and he's writing in the second person to her and like writes a message to her. And that's the last piece that he puts for her. As I'm raising Katie, I try to have her sort of take in like random information about Paul, like just truly random, like, you love taking a hot shower. I hate a hot shower. I get in and out. Like you and daddy, like, love a hot shower. He loved a hot shower. You take the hour power shower, just like daddy. So that's just like a random thing that you would know if you were like

• 42:48Speaker 01

  growing up like next to someone, right? So I try to give her those kinds of things instead of just like, your dad died and he was so wonderful and he loved you. It's like, I try to give her like sort of specifics that are like neither here nor there, but they're like, they like create a tapestry.

• 43:04Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  She like sees his brothers who are like really funny and amazing and sort of like just funny in the way that he was. And then I don't know what her interaction will be with Paul's book. Like, it's all over our house. It's like, we're not all over, but like we have five copies and they're on different bookshelves and they're around. And I don't know when she's going to pick it up. I don't know what she's going to take. I don't know if he's going to feel really close. If he's going to feel really far. Or if she's going to say like, I'm not interested in this, or if she's going to be 30 and produce a movie adaptation. Like, I have no, no idea. But I hope that she'll find some way that helps her, like you did, understand like where she came from and that she was loved. And yeah, she came from this. Like, that's really beautiful to hear you say that. I came from that.

• 43:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  So I have no idea.

• 43:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, no, of course you don't. But I appreciate how you. Incorporate the story, the tapestry, the, the natural, the real of, of what an experience is. And, and they're not heavy also. The version that's digestible and inhaleable.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:06Jay Shetty?

  Without holding you.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I actually asked, like, because I've done a lot of like speaking and, you know, doing this book tour and connecting with like grief groups and just all kinds of stuff. Since Paul died, I've actually asked people for advice. Like if anyone here in this audience is the kid, you know, who like lost a grandparent or lost whomever, and then you don't know them and you're piecing it together. What advice do you have? And like the resounding advice has been like, don't put away the pictures. Don't lock it up. You know, like let the kid sort of like have access, ask questions, like discover it. And just don't like put it away.

• 44:42Jay Shetty?

  What was it like making that decision to have Katie at the time? And then actually go through both coming to terms with Paul's mortality and then, you know, wanting to create life together?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Paul and I had sort of always thought like that would be the moment when we would think about having children. Like he was at the end of his residency. I was in attending by then. This is when things will like ostensibly become easier. And then right at that moment, he's diagnosed with metastatic terminal cancer. The prognosis is like months to a few years. But we both looked at each other and thought like, maybe we should do this still. Sort of like surprised ourselves. And he was more certain than I was. He really, really wanted to. And I needed to sort of shore up like the practicalities. It was sort of like, is the family on board with this? Like we refinanced the mortgage, like all of these things. It's like, can I be a solo parent? Like that is what I'm going to be.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  And then I also was honestly worried about his. I was worried about like what you said, like how to hold like birth and death and all of it at one time. And I, I asked him actually and was like, you are, you are sick. And like, as you're going through this process, don't you feel like having a child will make dying more painful for you? And he said, he said, wouldn't it be great if it did make it more painful? Which just like cracked the whole thing open. And I think actually for anybody who has a child, like, nobody is doing it because it's gonna make their life easier. There's like a million things we do that make our lives harder, like,

• 46:25Speaker 01

  everything, everything, right? Like, you know, climb a mountain all the way to the top to come down again in the exact same day. It's like, you didn't do that because it was easy. And so I just think, wouldn't it be great if it did? Has changed my life so much and cracked open like, not necessarily the best one. Sometimes you cannot have joy without risking pain or inviting pain. And for me, it was like another layer of uncertainty. It's like pregnancy itself is like so much uncertainty, so much fear. And I actually, as a new mom, had to keep reminding myself, like, you know, it's like you go in and you like, make sure the baby's still breathing. And you're like, is everything okay? She gets a fever and it's such a panic.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  And like, I had to remember and be like, I am 99% certain that this person is gonna be fine. Katie, I'm 99% certain that Paul will not be fine. Yeah. So like, that is now like where I need to hold like my energy. So that was kind of like helpful. Like when she was a baby, it was like, it's so easy to wish away time. You know, it's like, oh, I can't wait till she sleeps through the night. Or like, what's she gonna be like when she's like 18? And there was none of that. It was like, this is like the moment that Paul will be here for. Is like Katie's infanthood and like Paul's final years. And so there was no like wishing away the moment. It was all present. And it turns out like, that's actually really good for you. It's like the reason people like,

• 47:53Speaker 01

  learn to meditate or, you know, or it's like, I'm washing my hands in the sink. Like this is the feeling of the cool water. It was like that. It was like, like a baby cries, someone dies. I'm here like in this moment, you know? And so, yeah, and I still can access that somewhat. And then I also am like, you know, where are the pencils for seventh grade? So like, but anyway, it was, it was like beautiful and amazing and really good that we did it. And just, yeah.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  It, it worked out, taught me a lot.

• 48:36Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a second-hand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process and once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees,

• 49:21Jay Shetty?

  so you keep every dollar you earn. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colours, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision-making, and that extends to the practical stuff too,

• 50:04Jay Shetty?

  like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbour, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

• 50:40Jay Shetty?

  Were you always so evolved and or did this accelerate it in a way that because when I hear you speak, I'm just like, God, this is like a lot of growth, a lot of in a short amount of time, a lot of taking on a lot of different things in a short amount of time. And it's almost like, do you feel like you were somewhat prepared for it from somewhere in your past?

• 51:02Speaker 01

  The heaviest lift for me, actually, I think in terms of like, training my like, brain and heart to hold a million things actually was in medical school. I was like, I cannot believe I'm using like, every fiber of my being to figure out like intellectually and emotionally, how to take care of sick people and attend to like every, every layer of what's happening in this room. And then like, make it 10,000 decisions about like, how to make it all happen. So that was really hard. I also went through an episode of depression in residency. It was incredibly painful. I wasn't like hospitalized, but I took two weeks off work and I felt like, I just felt like I didn't exist. I mean, it was depression. It's like depression, like Andrew

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Solomon says about depression, like, depression is not the opposite of happiness. It's the opposite of vitality. It's like so interesting. That was really hard. And I think, like, making it through that, I don't even think I could put into words what it like, taught me, but touching that like pain, like left me with, I don't know, some sort of ability to approach darkness or something. Just be like, okay, like, I don't know, I have no idea. Yeah. And then I just have like, really good friends who are talking all the time. Like, I'm a processor by talking, obviously, you know, and then at the same time, it's like, I went through this hard thing of all these ideas about like, what helps me cope. And then you go through a breakup and you're like,

• 52:29Speaker 01

  heartbroken and you hate everything. You have to start again. Or like, you know, you have to figure out how to explain it to a kid. And then, you know, like, that's impossible. Or they think you're stupid, you know, like, I don't know. It's all everything. It's all everything.

• 52:43Jay Shetty?

  It's the transcendence and bullshit.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, this actually makes me think of this thing. Yeah, transcendence and bullshit.

• 52:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Do you know this idea? It came out of Dan Gilbert at Harvard, the social psychologist. This idea of like the end of history illusion. So like, he talks about, like, when you're asking this question of like, like, what got you to where you are today? And then like, he interviewed a bunch of people and he said, like, how much do you think you've changed in the past 10 years? And everyone said so much, like so much. And they said, how much do you think you're going to change in the next 10 years? And people said, probably not a lot. And he interviewed people at every age. And there's like a little, little bit of a slowdown, like in midlife. But essentially, everyone changes all the time. Everyone changes the same amount in the 10 years. You walk around thinking it's the end of history illusion of like, I'm me. I've made it here. I've got it sorted. Here we go. You know?

• 53:34Speaker 01

  And then in 10 years, you'll be like a whole different you with like different sensibility or like different frameworks. Like, isn't that crazy?

• 53:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  So, I don't know. I find that really helpful. I don't know why.

• 53:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Allowing ourselves to be new and different. I mean, it's interesting. When you first said that question, I was like, oh, I'd say I haven't changed much in the last 10 years. My, that would be my initial take. I feel like I knew who I was. I'm pretty much the same person. But I think that's not fully true. I think there's, there's also an end of history illusion from 10 years ago.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

• 54:03Jay Shetty?

  In the sense of like, I made up my mind who I was 10 years ago.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  You stopped then.

• 54:07Jay Shetty?

  And I stopped then. And it's like, well, that's not obviously true.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:10Jay Shetty?

  That's fascinating. That's really cool to play with.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:13Jay Shetty?

  It's refreshing to allow yourself to say, I have changed. My ability, my values have changed or what I care about has changed and.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  And then when a big, hard thing happens, you're like, oh, it's gonna make the me.

• 54:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like Dan's work, so I love to check that out.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's really cool.

• 54:28Jay Shetty?

  I wanted to ask you, actually, going back to something you said earlier, what about Katie reminds you most about Paul?

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Her eyes and her hands, her stubbornness. It's like infuriating. She very much knows her own mind, which is infuriating.

• 54:42Jay Shetty?

  I love it. Yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  It's like, an entire parenting toolboxes are unavailable to me because she's not a pleaser. And then she's like an incredible physical comedian, which Paul was also. Those are the things I think I would say. She's introverted like Paul. I process by like speaking, like relating. Sometimes I don't even know what I think until I've said it. And Paul was much more like inward. I think that's like, sort of like why he's like, when Breath Becomes Air spun out of his illness, because he was like churning and processing and reading and writing. And she's introverted like that. But then she'll give you like, you know, like a little gleam, you know, of something she's thinking.

• 55:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:26Jay Shetty?

  Has she ever asked you anything about Paul, like from her own curiosity?

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Totally. And she's actually, it's so interesting you ask that because I was gonna say, of course. And then, but it's not necessarily, of course. She's just sort of in the mix, gleaning. But recently, she started to. She said, like, could you make me a album of videos of daddy? And I was like, sure. And it's like, I so badly want to be like, what's she watching? When's she watching them? You know, because she's like having iPad time. But like, there's a bunch of videos. There's like some interviews and there's some goofy like sketch comedy stuff. And there's some like Thanksgiving, someone shot a video of whatever. And so like, she can look at that. And then she asks for like, stories. I'll tell her a story of like, oh, yeah, here's a story about daddy, like in a chess tournament when he was in seventh grade. And

• 56:14Speaker 01

  he was like, really bratty and a terrible loser. And so like, well, you know, just like, ha, ha, ha. But then there, you know, there's a lesson in that. And she like, recently, like of her own volition, like, put a small photo of the two of them next to her bed, you know? And I was like, oh, so interesting. Like, she's like claiming him.

• 56:32Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  You know what else is interesting, though, is like, she doesn't have a sibling, like, it's me and her. And she really wants a sibling. She wants a little sister specifically. She really wants me to keep dating so she can have a sis. I'm like, we can't engineer that whole thing, like if you posted. But it's interesting, because I actually think like, for her, losing Paul was a big thing and not having like, a dad. There is a big thing, but not having a sibling is actually also a big thing.

• 57:01Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Or having like our family look different from like most of the families at school. The permission slip is different. Like she's not self-conscious about it, but I think she like knows it. And it's a thing. So it's actually kind of interesting because it's not the only thing. You know, it's like she's piecing together like, you know, all of it. Like the structure of everything as every kid is doing, right?

• 57:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. About that, I mean, you mentioned earlier that Paul obviously wanted you to remarry. Obviously Katie's encouraging you to date. Like, what was that process like for you? Because you can say it when he's there and say, okay, I understand that that's how you love me.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:36Jay Shetty?

  In that forever way.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:38Jay Shetty?

  But what does that actually look like for the individual who has to go on and try to love again? How did you even begin to open your heart and mind to that possibility?

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:45Jay Shetty?

  And when did it feel possible?

• 57:47Speaker 01

  I wasn't like trying to open my heart. So I was just like, it was just pure intuition. I was just sort of like, well, I'll know when I know.

• 57:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  You know, for my wedding ring, I was like, I guess I'll take it off sometime. It's not today. And then like six months after Paul died, I went swimming and like took the ring off. And then came out of the lake and was like, oh, I think I'm not going to put it back on.

• 58:11Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  And then like right now I have like my engagement ring and Paul's wedding ring on this hand.

• 58:16Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Which is interesting, but maybe I'll take them off. Like if I were like dating someone really seriously, I think I would take off Paul's ring, you know? So I was in this like support group called Hot Young Widows Club.

• 58:27Jay Shetty?

  Oh, okay.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  After Paul died, it was Nora McInerney made it. It was incredible. And there was actually a lot of conversation in the group. It was a, it was on Facebook at the time. There's a lot of conversation about like, what did your person say about dating again? Like, did you have this conversation or not? Because I think a lot of people who'd had that conversation felt really freed by it. Some people thought like, what would they want me to do? Or like, is it a transgression? Or is it a disloyalty?

• 58:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  And I don't think so at all. Like I think like not at all. But I think like I'll also always love Paul. It's really interesting. And I think like the analogy for me, I mean, it's just like love is infinite. Like there's totally enough love to like go around. And I think for me, it's not a perfect analogy, but it feels a little bit like if someone's child had died. And then they had another child. You would never think like, oh, the this child replaced the other child. Or do they have enough space to like, love the the new child? You'd be like, no, they're just different. Like, it's a little different with your partner, right? But I'm like, Paul, the way I think of it now is like, Paul's my family. Like, he's my family. His family's my family. Like, he's my family forever.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  And I absolutely like, can fall in love, have fallen in love. Like, it's just like, there's enough love to go around.

• 59:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  You know? It's been like, pretty easy, in a way. And I think the grief part was actually the harder part. It's like, I needed to like, heal, to be like, ready and be like, emotionally available for like, anything. Like, I was just like, parenting my kid and surviving. And then I became ready. Let me know if you want to set me up.

• 1:00:04Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  They have to have one daughter younger than 11.

• 1:00:09Jay Shetty?

  Yes, Katie, you want a little sister? Got it. That's a good criteria. We're gonna put it out on the show right now.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:00:14Jay Shetty?

  I'm hearing from you that it's that it's that intuitive tell. It's it's not, yeah, it's not something that you consciously pursue or prepare.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Which like, is probably similar for a bunch of people, right? Like, after someone gets divorced and is like, going through the like, devastation and like, identity and like, what was what? And what was my role? I don't know. It's just like, it's all in upheaval, right? That's like, also so like, terribly hard. And so, I don't know, then it's like, yeah, when are you ready?

• 1:00:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, when are you ready? And I think that's the question that everyone keeps quizzing in their mind. But like you said, you can only know internally. It's not like a tactical, practical thing that you can kind of put into a number of months or years. And, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't work that way.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:55Jay Shetty?

  How do you define love today?

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  I mean, I saw you talk about it, actually, on a clip where you were like, the person who loves you will never use your wounds against you. And then you talked about how your wife like, holds no judgment for you. And I was like, of course, of course, because you're you. Like, and I don't mean you're Jay Shetty. I mean, like, you're you, you're the person they love. So like, yeah, there's no judgment of whatever the thing is. There's just like, partnership. It doesn't mean you could like, endlessly hurt the person either, but like, I don't know, that's part of it, I think. I think there is like an unconditionality to love for sure. And at the same time, I think like, that is more true for like, children than adults. Like, you don't love adults unconditionally, right? You like, have boundaries that like adults

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  like, can't actually cross. But like, as long as you can like, work a relationship within that, like, real like, partnership and spaciousness and like, non judgment.

• 1:01:53Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's a hard question.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  It's a really hard, what would you say?

• 1:01:56Jay Shetty?

  I'm always changing my mind. I, I think there's so many nuances and facets to it, that it's so, it's such a hard question. I think that's why we all struggle with it so much, in finding it and looking for it.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  That's the answer too, right? It's like, I would also be like, fun and growth. And then, but it's like, the same time, you're like, it's sort of like that thing where it's like, you know, when you're not like, it's intuitive.

• 1:02:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I mean, ultimately, it's teamwork. And teamwork requires all those things you just said.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Jay Shetty?

  Teamwork should be fun, and it should have growth, and it should have mutuality, and it should have reciprocation, and it should have connection and communicate. And so teamwork just, it feels very simplistic, but, but it, it gives you a good visual.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And at the same time, like, I do think it's like, I mean, you know this, but like, obviously, it's never going to be perfect either. Like, there's something actually really romantic in like, choosing, and like, choosing like, on a daily basis, you know, like, that's very romantic.

• 1:02:50Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Of like, sometimes one person's up, one person's down. Sometimes it's like, you know, difficult.

• 1:02:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  You know, but similarly, like, that's your team.

• 1:03:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's, it's shared.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:03:04Jay Shetty?

  It's a shared experience, it's a shared life, it's a co-created life.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Jay Shetty?

  It's a, co-creation, I think, is so important, and co-holding and co, co-everything.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  While also, like, you're still like, two beings, like,

• 1:03:18Jay Shetty?

  Correct.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  You're you.

• 1:03:19Jay Shetty?

  Correct, absolutely, yeah.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's complicated. I mean, it's like, it's a constant, as you're saying this, it's like, similarly to the like, end of illusion.

• 1:03:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  End of history illusion, it's like, it's never done and dusted. Like, it's like, it's like, constantly like, work.

• 1:03:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wanted to talk to you a bit about this idea of, and I know you've spoken about this, this idea of like, reimagining how we die. Because,

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Jay Shetty?

  It kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about the survivor or the beating cancer

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Jay Shetty?

  approach. My monk friend who, who passed away, like, he He was very positive and he almost just didn't let anyone in to what he was feeling and going through.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  So interesting.

• 1:03:59Jay Shetty?

  And that was his version of how he dealt with it.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02Jay Shetty?

  And as far as I know from him, I believe he was happy with that.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Jay Shetty?

  And then, of course, at the end of his life, he needed support and help and everything.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Jay Shetty?

  And he, and he got that. I wonder what your take is on having, obviously done this, has been a doctor, has seen patients, been at grief groups, like when you think about this idea of people battling between letting go and giving up and like what the difference is and what you do when you get a diagnosis and how you weigh up, whether I should fight till the end or whether I'm giving up or actually am I just letting go? Like, can you help make sense of that to some degree?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Totally. I mean, no is the answer.

• 1:04:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I, I hear you about your friend and it really is like to each his own, like people really have different ways of coping. It is a weird time to die in America in history because like that sort of like battle idea, like death is very medicalized and like very sort of like Western medicalized right now here. And I think there's like a lot of reasons for that, but the battle metaphor is one of them. And another one is like, we have all of this technology available that is like, you know, built for emergencies, but is getting offered to people who are like 90, you know, with like failing organs.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  I think there's so much taboo around talking about death and dying and meanwhile also so much hunger to like crack it open and think about it. I think like suffering and dying are really hidden like from view.

• 1:05:38Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  The way that they haven't been across history for people. It's like really interesting to be like, oh, what's happening over there? Like, how are we supposed to talk about it? So I think there's sort of this like cultural force to like intervene to like, you know, anyone who's been through like a serious illness with someone has seen how much sort of like momentum there is toward like aggressive medical care. I think of it when you were saying like, how do you choose whether to like, you know, am I giving up? Am I beating it? I guess in my mind, I sort of think of it as like a thing is happening, like a thing is happening. It's like now there is Parkinson's here, or now this person has metastatic cancer and like it's going to play out the way it's going to play out. And so like, how

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  do you like provide healthcare that's going to make that the best possible, like extend life as long as possible, extend functionality like as long as possible, help people do the things that they want to do that are important to them. But there is some like building of like, you can sort of choose healthcare within that to kind of like design your healthcare or like make your choices around what's important to you. But that requires like sort of facing up to like what is happening, what is possible. And then like having the team who's taking care of you like also level with you about that with their knowledge and experience. I mean, there's like two things like for I'll like give you a practical tip about it. But if people are like, I am facing an illness, my family

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  member has an illness, I want to be able to like, figure this out, but like, how on earth am I supposed to do that? One like thing people can do is ask for a palliative care team to be part of their care. People get really scared around the word palliative. So like palliative care, hospice is a teeny part of it. So hospice is like palliative care for people who are actually dying soon. Like you literally have to be certified, like very likely, more likely than not that you would die within six months. That's hospice. Then there's palliative care, which is huge. You could be like a 22 year old with Hodgkin's lymphoma, who's going to be cured in two years and is like really struggling and suffering and they'll take care of you too. Or you could be someone with heart failure where it goes up and down and up and down for years and you could have palliative care take

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  care of you. And basically, it's, it's a concurrent care model alongside whatever other care you're getting, alongside the oncologist, alongside the neurologist, or whomever is taking care of you. It's actually a medical specialty that only was recognized in the US 20 years ago. It grew up just like a little bit before that. But they combine like chaplaincy, nurses, social workers, like doctors or other clinicians. And then they take care of your family too. So like when you walk in the door, they're like, who else is taking care of you? Who else is with you? Hey, does this person need some? It's so incredible. It's like, if you could just dissolve the healthcare system. Which Walter Cronkite said is neither healthy nor caring nor a system. You would just like start with palliative care and then just like build everything else around that.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  There's a lot of like misunderstandings about what palliative care is, but if anybody's struggling and isn't sure where to turn for that, they're so incredible. And you could just ask, you can just be like, can I have a palliative care specialist be part of what we're doing?

• 1:08:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it feels like there's all these hidden things that exist already that we miss out. And even, even like the, what was it, the hot widows?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Hot young widows.

• 1:09:01Jay Shetty?

  Hot young widows. Yeah. Even the camp you were talking about earlier, before we started recording.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, Katie's at Camp Kessam. Yeah.

• 1:09:10Jay Shetty?

  And just, there's all these things out there that humans are doing so many beautiful, yeah, so many beautiful things to, to help people at different stages. And you almost don't know, and, and hopefully people who are in the position know, but if they don't, it's, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that. I think this is such an important conversation that I feel like you're such a big part of like, how do we help people take back their dignity when they're dying? Like, what does, what does that actually mean? What does that look like?

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  I think the, the broad strokes answer is like, don't forget that they're a person. Don't forget that they're still them. Think about what you would want in that situation. You know, I think like, like we were saying, it's like illness and dying can be sort of so flattening of like your humanity, your complexity. It's so sort of like undignified, right? You're like, you become sort of like infantilized, you know, or if you're in a hospital, or if you're somewhere, if you're in a healthcare facility, you're literally naked, you know, you're not even wearing your own clothes. So just as much as like, people can protect your privacy, ask you what's important to you, make things beautiful, like sensually, you know, like there are flowers here, there's

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  music here, like people are touching you, like people are looking you in the eye, like, I don't know, I could say a million other examples. I also think like respecting what someone like cares about. Like, you know, when people are dying and they're trying to make a difficult decision, like Paul did, I wrote about this in the end of Paul's book, but. He was very, very sick and ultimately got rushed to the ICU because he was suffering so much and couldn't breathe well and then had to make this decision about whether to be intubated, like whether to be on a breathing machine. A lot of people who are sick end up sort of with a north star of what's really important to them. I want to be with my family. I want to be free of pain. I want to make it to my child's graduation. For Paul, his was, I want to be mentally lucid.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Like, I want to be mentally lucid to like be with my family and keep writing as long as I can write. He literally was like writing up until like two to three days before he died. And so that decision about whether to be intubated became really clear.

• 1:11:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  You know, where he's like, there's a chance if I get intubated, then I will not be extubated and instead like will stop life support. And so for him, it was like the way to like maintain his dignity was like, or align with his values was like, okay, if this is the end of mental lucidity, then this is the end and like, we'll listen to you.

• 1:11:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  You know, like, great, like, we'll make that happen.

• 1:11:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Which was when that was actually happening, it was like incredibly confusing, incredibly painful, incredibly so hard, but also like so, there was a grounding thing, which was like, what's important to Paul?

• 1:11:55Jay Shetty?

  When I hear that, I think about how usually when we're losing someone, we're worrying about how it affects us.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:02Jay Shetty?

  And they're the one who's going through loss too.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:12:07Jay Shetty?

  It's shared, it's shared. It is two ways.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:10Jay Shetty?

  But it's almost like, I think us, all of us naturally would want the person to stay, obviously.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  Sure, totally.

• 1:12:15Jay Shetty?

  But there's a independence and decision that that person also needs clarity on. And like you said, it may be, yes, I want to do this, but his one was so specific to his purpose and mission in the world.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Totally. And at the same time, like medically, like families can go through real trauma, like literal PTSD from like participating in medical care or having like their loved one get care that wasn't in line with their values or that they ultimately thought like, oh, that did cause them unnecessary suffering. So it's like, there's always a trade off, you know, like, it's like. It can hurt everybody.

• 1:12:50Jay Shetty?

  Do you believe anything needs to change in the standard protocol of how doctors deliver terminal news?

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Um, totally. When I was in medical school, which was 20 years ago, they were just starting to teach, like, hey, make sure you attend to the emotion in the room. So like, if someone is crying, pause, allow some space. It'll feel like a long time to you, doesn't feel like a long time to them. And then you can even say, I see the tears in your eyes and just leave it. Or you can say, this looks like it's feeling really sad. You know what I mean? Like, we were learning those skills. It was really interesting because they were teaching it to us like they were skills, because they actually are. And then you have a little mnemonic about like, attend to the emotion in the room, but it's real, like it's you, it becomes part of you.

• 1:13:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  I think, you know, there was a study of doctors that said, half of doctors said they had like given a prognosis that was rosier than what their actual medical opinion was, which is so interesting. It's like, even in the hospital, it's like, you sort of make this assumption of like, what hope means to people? Like, hope means longer life. So I'm going to say that, I'm going to keep them on the outer bounds of what could be possible. But I think what many people respond to, like, what I've ended up learning is a really good way to share with patients, or even frame it to yourself, is thinking, A, about like prognostication, for example, as a range. So like, instead of saying like, you have six months to live, because like, that's the median in the studies, you say like, it's likely a few months to a few years,

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  which is like broader, but more accurate, really. And that's like enough information for someone to decide, like, do they want to have a baby? Like, during this illness or not, you know? And then similarly, another way that we've been trained to tell people, that we're training our students to tell people, is a model where you say, you share the best case, the worst case, and the most likely case. And actually, people can have a lot, people get a lot of information from that, where they can decide, like, how much risk do I want to take to aim for the best, to prepare for the worst? And then they're kind of like, well, I'm still allowing space for the best. And in the meantime, I'll make sure my family knows what I want when I'm gone.

• 1:15:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  So like, I think like doctors are being... Taught to allow just like space, space, space, space and more like accuracy.

• 1:15:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really helpful to hear. It's helpful to hear how humans process.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:16Jay Shetty?

  A really difficult.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Not just one conversation, like.

• 1:15:19Jay Shetty?

  Of course.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  The first time you hear the news, like then you don't hear anything else, right? Then you have to hear it again. You know, you heard it from different people, but yes, it needs to change and it is changing. Thank goodness.

• 1:15:30Jay Shetty?

  I think right now in the world, we're talking a lot about aging well.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Jay Shetty?

  What's your sense of what it means to die well?

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  I think that living well is the same. I think like the way to not be afraid of dying is to feel that you've had a meaningful life. That's what I think. I think that's what ended up being true for Paul. And I'll just tell you like something beautiful that like Paul felt that I hope I feel too, because I also think this sort of encompasses like a good debt. Is like similarly, if you're lucky enough to like have the tools to like build a life that you felt is meaningful. I think Paul ended up feeling like, not to sound cheesy, but I love this. He ended up feeling, I'm not dying. Feeling that I'm losing everything. I'm dying, feeling that I have everything. Which I think is so cool, you know?

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  So I don't know, it hasn't happened to me yet, so it'll be a surprise.

• 1:16:27Jay Shetty?

  That's a really powerful answer and quite an unfathomable mindset because you could argue he. He could have felt he didn't have everything, like he hadn't had Katie and you know, like hadn't had that experience and. Which seems like the natural thing we all feel at that time where it's like, I haven't done this yet, or I haven't seen this, or want to make it to this and sort of really say.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  That will always be true.

• 1:16:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  That'll be true for everyone.

• 1:16:51Jay Shetty?

  But he was able to say he had everything. He felt that.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or enough, like enough.

• 1:16:57Jay Shetty?

  Enough, yeah, enough, yeah.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  I struggled with it later too. And then a friend was like, what if it was enough? And I was like. What if it was enough?

• 1:17:05Jay Shetty?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:17:07Jay Shetty?

  So grateful, truly. I'm so grateful to meet you, so grateful for your openness, so grateful to learn about Katie and Paul and yourself.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:17:18Jay Shetty?

  Truly in awe of your resilience and courage.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  That's like wild to hear you say that.

• 1:17:24Jay Shetty?

  It's true. I really mean it.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, what a treat. I mean, truly, yeah.

• 1:17:28Jay Shetty?

  No, it's melted my heart.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Jay Shetty?

  Truly, I really mean that.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Jay Shetty?

  Thank you.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, my pleasure.

• 1:17:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, such a joy. If you loved this episode, you'll love my conversation with Malala Yousafzai on how she transformed extreme adversity into global purpose.

• 1:17:45Speaker 03

  I was hanging out with some friends and what was like supposed to be a fun night just took a sharp turn and immediately I froze.

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 1:18:25Speaker 05

  Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig on October 2. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 1:18:36Speaker 06

  Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:18:42Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:18:46Speaker 06

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:18:49Speaker 05

  I'm not the first, daddy.

• 1:18:50Speaker 06

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:18:55Speaker 07

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 1:18:57Speaker 05

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 1:18:59Speaker 07

  Uh, Taylor Hanson? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 1:19:04Speaker 05

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 1:19:06Speaker 07

  But Taylor Hanson's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 1:19:10Speaker 05

  Taylor Hanson? Nice. Try one. Mmm.

• 1:19:17Speaker 05

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.