The Great Super Bowl Snack Debate

Michael Ian Black and Tom Cavanagh are great comedic actors and friends who love to analyze snacks in extreme detail on their podcast, Mike and Tom Eat Snacks. In this special crossover episode ahead of the Super Bowl, Dan tells Mike and Tom about the time his overly ambitious Super Bowl snack idea went very wrong. They also get into a fiery debate about chicken wings and put different shapes of tortilla chips to a taste test.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  If you're the kind of person who plans vacations around where you're gonna eat, Scottsdale belongs on your list. And look, whenever I go somewhere, my priority is on eating things that are the specialties of that region, eating things that I can't get at home. So when I'm in that area, I'm looking for the specialties of the region, like authentic southwestern and Native American flavors, modern Mexican cuisine, and as basic as it sounds, homemade, fresh flour tortillas. There's nothing like it, and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm-to-table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices, it is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe. It's one of those places where breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner, and every patio has another amazing view.

• 0:45Dan Pashman?

  And explore Old Town Scottsdale between meals, or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com. I grew up on Lando Lake's cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lake's American cheese. And now, Lando Lake's cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lake's cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lake's has plenty of quick

• 1:26Dan Pashman?

  dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  You're definitely going traditional sort of appetizer, entree, dessert as you work through the game.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  For a sporting event, dessert is not a big thing, maybe after.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Your team wins. You're telling me you're gonna turn down to Chipwich? Come on.

• 2:03Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Now, before we get to this week's show, we have a live podcast taping in Brooklyn coming up next month, not so far away anymore. I'll be joined onstage by cookbook author and friend of the show, Kenji Lopez Alt, as well as a legend of comedy, the one and only Judy Gold, who I have loved forever. It's March 19th at the Bell House. This is gonna be a blast, and tickets are going fast, so get yours now. Go to sporkful.com/live. All right, let's get into it. When I first started this podcast 16 years ago in my living room, the show was more about

• 2:46Dan Pashman?

  analyzing and debating the tiniest details of the eating experience. Things like whether cheeseburgers are better with the cheese on the bottom, or how to build a smore that doesn't fall apart when you bite into it, or the best strategy at an all-you-can-eat buffet. And in those early days, there was another podcast called Mike and Tom Eat Snacks that also went into extreme detail on basic foods, in this case specifically snacks. Now, many of the 15 or 20 listeners I had at the time wrote to me and said, "You should have these guys on, it's a perfect pairing!" But the Mike and Tom in question were the great comedic actors and improv veterans, Michael Ian Black and Tom Cavanagh. I didn't even bother trying to get them. Eventually, they stopped doing their podcast because

• 3:27Dan Pashman?

  they were doing so many TV shows and movies, but last year, they relaunched Mike and Tom Eat Snacks. In recent weeks, they've analyzed everything from Kinder Surprise Eggs to the Bumblebee Tuna Salad Kit. And as always, their analysis includes all kinds of hilarious digressions. You really never know where they're gonna take a conversation. Anyway, after they made their podcast comeback, we connected. And so this week, we have a crossover episode that's been 16 years in the making. And in the tradition of both of our podcasts, no detail will be too small for our consideration, as we break down Super Bowl party snacks ahead of the big game. Do either of you have a favorite Super Bowl party snack or item?

• 4:11Dan Pashman?

  Obviously, wings is well known. There's often pizza. You can imagine like a giant sub, but there's other, all other kinds of dips and dipping apparatus, apparati. What do you go for?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  In this way, I, I'll relate Super Bowl to Thanksgiving. When I go to Thanksgiving, I want turkey, I want mashed potatoes, I want sweet potatoes, I want stuffing, I want the traditional stuff. Same at a Super Bowl party. Anything greasy, anything that comes individually wrapped, anything like that. Don't hit me with your brie and pear spread. Don't give me some sort of radicchio salad.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Chips, wings, pizza, great. Let's not, let's not put any fufury on it.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  You want low end. Is that what you're saying? You want low end?

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Whatever I eat has to, you have to be able to find it at a 7-Eleven. That's what I'm saying.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:12Dan Pashman?

  What about the hot dogs rolling on the spindles? Would you go for that?

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Perfect, perfect, perfect Super Bowl fare.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  I'm fine with that, too.

• 5:18Dan Pashman?

  Um, I gotta tell you, last year we were invited to a Super Bowl party and I, you know, increasingly I feel a lot of pressure, if I can unburden myself to the two of you.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Please.

• 5:26Dan Pashman?

  People know that I host a food podcast and they expect me to be a great chef, which I'm not. I'm a good home cook, but I'm not a trained chef. I don't have any great culinary expertise, but yet they invite me to their house and they expect me to show up with something that's gonna blow people's minds. And once in a while, I nail it, but other times, you know, it's a disaster. And I, I was like, let me, I'm doing something really special for this Super Bowl party. I'd seen like on Instagram, people build like a football stadium out of food. You know, it's got like, it's got like, you know, it's literally like a mini stadium with like a field and like bleachers all around.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  And you're thinking to yourself, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna build a football stadium out of food.

• 6:04Dan Pashman?

  Yes, that is what I set out to do.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  You're an idiot.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  That's a tough, that's a tough act to follow. You don't wanna set any kind of bar like that.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  That's the worst precedent you could set, brother.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly right.

• 6:17Dan Pashman?

  Next year, they're gonna be like, where, where's your full-scale replica of the solar system made out of food?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  What's in the football stadium made of food?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  What's the green?

• 6:29Dan Pashman?

  The green was vegetables, which breaks Michael's rule. And then I think I tried to use pretzels around the outside and like cut up pita. And maybe there was also some other vegetables to give it color. And then there was like a dip in the center, it's like right on the 50 yard line with some sort of large dip vessel. And maybe there were three different dips you could choose from, two which weren't very good. And that was in the center. And you could maybe barely just make out what it was supposed to be. But yet like, at the end of the party, I had to bring 98% of it home with me with my tail between my legs.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, oh, this wasn't at your place?

• 7:07Dan Pashman?

  No, no, this, right, this was in someone else's house.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  That's great commitment. So can I, I mean, I love the, I love the detail. A couple of things that come to mind is what's the night before making it going, this is good. This is a good idea. And then, and then what's the walking up to the house or to the party? Is it like, is it like, oh, wait a minute? Or is it like, wait till they see this?

• 7:34Dan Pashman?

  So I had seen it like on Instagram and I was like, this looks awesome. And then I decided to do it and I initially was very excited about the idea. I'm like, I can pull this off. I think it's going to be great. It's going to be a real showstopper. You know, I'm going to, everyone else is going to have the same old, same old. And I'm going to walk in there with my stadium.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  I love that. That's great. That's great. Like, watch this.

• 7:57Dan Pashman?

  It's going to be like, turn off the TV. Turn off the TV. Everybody gather around.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  I don't want to say it out loud, but it's smart for, I mean, we all know it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so then.

• 8:10Dan Pashman?

  So then I'm in my house that afternoon, because I think I was steaming some of the vegetables. Because I didn't want to, I'm trying to get it. And I'm building the whole thing out. And as I'm building it, reality is starting to set in. And I'm starting, I'm like, this is not coming together. And I think I took it apart. I tried to reassemble it. I might have got, there might have been a second trip to the store to try to, I'm like, I need more structural supports. You know, I need to build this thing. I need, because you need height.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:35Dan Pashman?

  To make it look like a stadium, you need height around the perimeter.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:38Dan Pashman?

  So that you have like the slanted seats going down. And I just did not put enough thought into the engineering underlying that.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Roughly, what's the size? What, how?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. What's, how big is it? Like, when you bring it up, is it in a bag? How you doing it?

• 8:50Dan Pashman?

  No, it's, so I, I have a serving platter that is oval shaped. So roughly the shape of a stadium. And it does have a little bit of a lip on that, uh, around that perimeter. Though I thought would help with the height visual. But, look, by the time I left the house, I knew that this was, you know, it was not, had not gone well. Um, you know, I was hoping like, maybe the dips will be really good to people. Maybe that's what they'll like, you know? So not only was I very, pretty sure when I walked in the door that this had, this was a pretty big disaster. But also, like, then you get there and like, there's 50 people at this party and everybody has brought something. So there is just food everywhere.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  So are you, are you like, uh, and where, where can I put the stadium? It would be great if it was in like a central spot. Like, have you worked this out with the host? Like, I'm gonna need like, I'm gonna need to clear out a little bit.

• 9:44Dan Pashman?

  Right. Do you guys have a spotlight?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Maybe just keep it clear around the stadium, cause it's a parking lot. Good, it's a parking.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  That's it, exactly right.

• 9:58Dan Pashman?

  I love dips in general. That's the one thing you can tell from my football stadium disaster. I was trying to take the event of dips to another level.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:05Dan Pashman?

  I just think I like eating anything that's sort of interactive. I'm a kind of a control freak with food and I like being able to determine, okay, I'm gonna have two string beans in this bite. I'm gonna have double chips or only one. I'm gonna dip it in this dip or that dip. On this one, I want a lot of dip. On this one, I want a little dip. Every bite is a new experience.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Can I just interrupt you for a second? Because isn't that true with literally every, anything you eat? You're in control.

• 10:27Dan Pashman?

  No, I mean, if you get a cheeseburger, like, a lot of the decisions have been made for you. Uh, if you get a pizza, sure, you can fold it, you could not fold it, you could use a fork and knife in some situations, but like, there's only so much you can do. Whereas like, if you have a couple of different dip shooters from a couple of different dipping vessels, the world is open to you, Michael. The, I mean, it's exponential. Do you have favorite chip and dip combos?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. To me, the king of dips is always gonna be the sour cream and onion, made with Lipton dried onion soup mix. That and sour cream. Uh, that is the king of dips and will always be the king of dips.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  I hate doubling down on, on that, but my brother, he, he builds his house out of wood. He, you know, he knocks down walls with sledgehammers and he, you know, he makes all these different foods and his, uh, sour cream and onion dip is, uh, that, that is like, here's an event. Like, James is going, James is going into the kitchen and he's gonna make that thing. So what I, that's the first thing I think of.

• 11:32Dan Pashman?

  And what do you like to dip into that?

• 11:34Speaker 02

  What it comes down to often is just the simple salt Lay's chip. Like, just, it's like, well, you, you kinda can't, you kinda can't beat that, you know, because we're chip connoisseurs, you know, like the, the Lay's, the Lay's chip is extra salty.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Brother, you're, you're singing to the choir here. I mean, the Lay's classic potato chip. With the sour cream and onion dip, I mean, that's just perfection right there. Now, now.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Now.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  There is a caveat, which is sometimes, you know, the Lay's is super thin, so it can break off in there.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 12:10Dan Pashman?

  It's fragile.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  So you might, you might want a ruffles at times. That's okay.

• 12:13Dan Pashman?

  Ruffles do have more structural integrity.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:15Dan Pashman?

  Have you ever tried a sour cream and onion ruffle dipped into sour cream and onion dip?

• 12:20Speaker 01

  That sounds like heresy to me.

• 12:24Dan Pashman?

  I, I.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  That sounds like it's against, against nature. Sour cream and onion dipped into sour cream and onion.

• 12:31Dan Pashman?

  I think you're probably right. It sort of seems like, why not do something complimentary instead of redundant?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  What are your favorite dips? I mean.

• 12:37Dan Pashman?

  Of all the kinds of chips that you could dip, my favorite is tortilla chips. I, I don't love potato chips. If I'm hungry and they're around and I want a salty snack, sure, I'll eat them. But to me, they're kind of greasy and most of them are all salt and like very little, if any, potato flavor.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  My God.

• 12:53Dan Pashman?

  And so I prefer tortilla chips. For dips, and we can talk more about tortilla chips in a minute, but like, you know, I enjoy a good salsa, although I feel like there's always salsa. I like a good guac, but I feel like there's always guac. There's a dip that my mom makes. She does it more with veggies, but I think it's good with anything. She's made it forever and now I've sort of stolen it from her. And it's just mayo, Dijon mustard, lemon juice, salt, pepper, a little bit of dill, and I will add a little sriracha.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Mmm, that sounds great.

• 13:27Dan Pashman?

  And it is creamy and savory and tart and a little peppery. It's just like got everything going on. I like to put sriracha in because it makes it pink. And without the sriracha, it looks at a glance like ranch. So people always dip, which is kind of fun. People dip something into it, thinking they're having ranch. And then they have this thing with like mustard and lemon juice. And it's like, whoa, like, what is that? You know, and watching the surprise on their face is fun. And that's a dip that I really enjoy.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  I like that. That sounds good. That sounds like it could also be a salad dressing.

• 13:58Dan Pashman?

  If you alter the ratios, I mean, because if you do like two to one mayo to mustard, it's still pretty thick.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 14:04Dan Pashman?

  But you know, if you do, if you were to do less mayo and a little olive oil instead, uh, you could probably adapt.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Emulsify that mother?

• 14:11Dan Pashman?

  Oh, listen to this guy.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Mmm, I'm emulsifying.

• 14:15Dan Pashman?

  Let, let the record show that you're making a hand gesture that looks like you've used an immersion blender before.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  That's exactly what I was using.

• 14:23Dan Pashman?

  Where are the two of you with tortilla chips? Are you a fan? Do you have favorites?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Love a tortilla chip. And I love, I love different flavors of tortilla chips. I love different brands of tortilla chips. I recently made my own fried tortilla and chip.

• 14:37Dan Pashman?

  You did homemade tortilla chips?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Well, I made, I was frying tortillas and then, you know, made some chips from it. And, you know, salted and whatever. I wasn't specifically making chips, but I liked the idea that once I had fried the tortilla, to make some chips from it. Terrific.

• 14:52Dan Pashman?

  Interesting. I, I've honestly never made tortilla chips from scratch, but I would have imagined that you, because I know they sort of come from the idea of like, you have leftover corn tortillas. They're not so fresh anymore, so you fry them up as a way to, to make good use of them and make them delicious again. I would think if I was gonna do that, I would cut up the corn tortilla first and then fry the pieces. Not fry it whole and then cut it. Did you have any splintering or shattering when you cut up the tortilla?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  No, because once it's fried, once it's fried, you can, you can just kind of poke it and it'll chip apart.

• 15:22Dan Pashman?

  But you got like sort of shards in different, like you have some small bits?

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Sure. But, but, look, this is the danger with tortilla chips. I, I've said it, I've warned people for years. I've said, look, anytime you get a tortilla chip, you're gonna get edges, there's, there could be shards. You know, proceed with caution.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  I prefer a potato chip to a tortilla chip. I like a tortilla chip. But when it comes to the great snack aisle of life, I'm, I'm gonna go for just Lay's Wavy or, um, you know, Trader Joe's Wavy. I, I've tried them all and we've, we've reviewed many of them. There's, there's many brands that, that I like. But for me, the, the safe house is the simple chip. And then the tortilla chip is, it takes a, takes a backseat to that. Which I feel ameliorates my tortilla chip experience because when I do have it, I'm like, these are great. I should have these at every meal.

• 16:18Dan Pashman?

  So a couple of quick things. First off, since you both love Lay's and you did acknowledge, Michael, that as good as they can be, one of the issues is that they're thin and prone to breaking. I would suggest if you're gonna do Lay's in something thick like a sour cream and onion dip, that you don't hold the chip, you don't sweep across with the chip in an open-faced position. You instead hold the chip vertically, like narrow and go through. It will still pick up enough dip, but you won't be putting nearly as much strain on the chip. And it will more or less be able to hold together.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  You're saying vertically and plunge or as opposed to slide?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's saying a chip plunge.

• 16:52Dan Pashman?

  Well, you could try plunge or dragging across the top. I have interviewed both a structural engineer and a rocket scientist on the subject of chip dipping.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  This is great.

• 17:03Dan Pashman?

  And one of the things that the rocket scientist told me, she was talking about drag and how when you design a rocket, one of the big things you're worried about is drag, you know, making sure that there's not too much resistance on the rocket as it tries to get into orbit. And she said one of the big mistakes she thinks people make when they dip potato chips, tortilla chips, whatever it may be, is that they plunge straight down and then they do this kind of forklift move where they're kind of flipping, turning the chip up and that is putting the absolute most possible strain on the chip. Instead, she recommended a snowplow maneuver where you're sweeping across the top, which can allow you to collect a lot of dip while putting much less strain on the chip.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Right. I like that. Yeah, here's my concern now is you're talking about the snowplow maneuver with the potato chip. To me, if I'm going to snowplow, I'm going to grab the perimeter, right? And I'm going to kind of slide across, but then what's, but then my, I feel like my hand has a danger of getting into the dip. Now, I don't mind because I'm going to do this.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  You don't mind? Yeah, that's good. I don't mind, but I'm just worried that other people are going to be like, Black, what are you doing, kid?

• 18:06Dan Pashman?

  I mean, I would probably still stick with the traditional chip hold, which would be like thumb on top, but you need to get that finger underneath to provide additional support and then just try to do your best to not let that finger touch the dip. But if it does, it will be hidden by the chip and nobody will be any worse for the experience.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Uh, but the nice thing about the tortilla chip and the salsa is your ratios are inverse because the tortilla chip has a lot more structural integrity and the salsa typically is thinner than a sour cream and onion dip. And plus, they got the scoops. Yeah, they got the scoops now too.

• 18:41Dan Pashman?

  And so that's something we should talk about. What are your guys' takes on the scoop?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  I'm not, I gotta be honest, I don't love it. I don't love a scoop. I feel like some has something with the scoop gets gets the proportions wrong. Once you put the scoop in, either the chip is too thick or there's too much salsa. It's hard to get it right, whereas I feel like in the traditional manner, it just adheres perfectly and you end up with just the right ratios.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  You're exactly right. My experience with the scoop is, oh, this is good. Now I can really scoop, but then the the stuff gets into the center.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  A pooling effect.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  And so when I bite the edges, which is the first thing you're gonna bite, you're not getting the dip the the way you want it.

• 19:19Dan Pashman?

  I I generally agree with both of you. I mean, the only way to get the chip and the dip all together is to eat the thing in one bite. I mean, it'll fit in your mouth probably, but the issue with that is that then the walls are of the scoop are vertical. And they're going to jam into the roof of your mouth and cut the roof of your mouth.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, scoops are a recipe for shards. They just are.

• 19:43Dan Pashman?

  I I believe, though, am I right? Do you guys have some scoops? Should we should we go take those for a test drive?

• 19:48Speaker 02

  We have, we have, I mean, we've got, we got both, which is great, right, Magic?

• 19:54Speaker 01

  And I have the Tostitos Chunky Salsa Medium.

• 19:59Dan Pashman?

  So I will say, one of the nice things about the scoops is that there's a lot of variety in the different way. You know, in reality, only maybe half of the chips in the bag are the full-fledged scoop shape.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:12Dan Pashman?

  And I feel like over time they flattened out a little bit. The vertical walls are not so vertical. They're more at a forty-five degree angle. And so if you if you fish through the bag a bit, you can find like half pieces or slightly flatter pieces that still have some of the scoop properties, but are not as perilous for the roof of your mouth. Let's cover one more topic before we do a taste test.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Please.

• 20:30Dan Pashman?

  Because I have, I have three metrics that I use to judge all tortilla chips. One is flavor, um, which can be flavorings like the lime flavored, or it just means like, does it taste like corn? Um, or is it just salty? Um, the other is crunch factor. I think you want some good crunch, but you don't want to be so crunchy that you're like, jaw gets sore from eating a few. But then the final thing is shape. I'm gonna go ahead and say, I mean, I understand why traditionally tortilla chips are triangular because they started with a round corn tortilla and it's leftover and you so you cut it like a mini pizza, you cut it into wedges. But nowadays, very few mass-produced tortilla chips are made

• 21:13Dan Pashman?

  that way. They're only ever a triangle. And strips also are somewhat traditional, but the truth is like, we can make them any shape we want now. And I think that the, you know, that the triangle is not the best. I mean, it's if you hold one point and dip two points, you have a lot of surface for dip, but then you're holding a very thin end. So there's very likely to have breakage. If you hold two points and dip one point, there's not that much space for dip. And then on top of that, you know, if it's too big, it's hard to fit the whole thing in your mouth. The points, as you so eloquently said, Michael, can be very perilous. And so I just think that that maybe we can do better than a triangle. What do you guys think?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  I think you bring you bring up some good points and some and more than that, some important points. Because with the triangle, you're right, with the traditional triangle, you do you do run into some dipping problems. It's not well suited for dipping. A strip would be better. The shards, the points, all excellent points. The fact that we can even have this conversation about tortilla shapes and the technology that we have, just makes me grateful to be alive in the time, human history, that I'm alive. Because this is the first time in human history, we could say that. We say we have the technology to make tortilla chips any shape we want. So I thank you for

• 22:33Speaker 01

  bringing it up. And if nothing else today, I'm gonna leave with a lot of gratitude.

• 22:43Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Mike, Tom and I put our tortilla chip and salsa theories to the test, a taste test. And later, things get heated. We debate the most classic Super Bowl food of all, wings. That's coming up. Stick around.

• 22:59Speaker 03

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• 24:30Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing like it, and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm-to-table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices, it is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe, you know, it's one of those places where breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner, and every patio has another amazing view. And explore Old Town Scottsdale between meals, or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com.

• 25:12Dan Pashman?

  I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners. Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket, and it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket, and probably a new one because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince because the beauty of a lightweight jacket

• 25:57Dan Pashman?

  is you can wear it in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly, your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was The Sporkful.

• 26:41Dan Pashman?

  It's the best way to support the show.

• 26:50Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman, and I want to tell you about a collab that I just did that I'm super excited about with the world famous deli Zingermans in Ann Arbor, Michigan. They have so much good stuff at Zingermans, and they ship all over the country. So we collaborated on a kit. It's got some of my favorite items from Zingermans. Their lemon poppy seed cake, which Janie has said is her favorite cake of all time. An incredible candy bar, their potato chips, and then many of the ingredients you'll need to make my kimchi carbonara recipe from my cookbook, including Zingermans phenomenal guanciale, their pecorino romano, and of course, a box of caskatelli. And even if you don't have my book, the kimchi carbonara recipe is included in the box. Everything Zingermans makes is phenomenal. So get the kit shipped right to your door at zingermans.com.

• 27:34Dan Pashman?

  All right, back now to my conversation with actors Michael Ian Black and Tom Cavanagh, host of the podcast Mike and Tom Eat Snacks. We opened up both bags of tortilla chips, the traditional triangles and the scoops. It's time now for a taste test. See, I'm intentionally gonna pick what is sort of like two-thirds of a scoop chip. It's broken on one end, but I think that by having it a little bit broken, I'm gonna be able to get it into my mouth without cutting the roof of my mouth as much.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  See, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the opposite tact. Just as a, as a, as a, as a contrast, I'm gonna do a full scoop and eat it in one. So I've, I'm fully scooped and now I'm inserting. I did spill.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  There's a thing I like that the scoop doesn't give me, that when I dip a chip, I like to have a flat surface so on one side, on the, on the tongue, I can feel the salt. And the scoop, I can't get around it enough to get that same sensation I get when I dip the, the original flat guy. That just sits right where I want it.

• 28:48Dan Pashman?

  Right, and it alters your ratio because the scoop is so good at holding dip that you end up with a lot more dip in the bite than you would get with a flat chip.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 28:56Dan Pashman?

  So that kinda, you're gonna get, you know, you gotta be, if you're using scoop chips, you gotta be here for the dip. That's why you're really, that's why you're doing it.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  I have to be man enough to admit when I was wrong. I'm enjoying the scoop a lot.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  You like the scoop?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  I'm enjoying the amount of salsa I'm getting on here, and I think it's because when I use the flat jobber and I put it in the chunky, medium salsa, I'm not getting any spice. When I use the scoop, because I'm getting more salsa, I'm getting more of the jalapeno and the spice, and I'm enjoying a little bit of kick. And the salsa ratio, even though it's more than I'm used to, I'm enjoying it. I think because I like the salsa so much. Terrific scoop.

• 29:42Dan Pashman?

  It's so juicy when you get all that salsa in it.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 29:45Dan Pashman?

  One thing I do want to add about the scoops, though, and this is, you know, I told you what the rocket scientist taught me about chips, what the structural engineer taught me about chips, because I was talking through with him different shapes, like, you know, why are some shapes stronger than others? And he's like, the strongest shape in engineering is an arch. Like, the Roman aqueducts are still standing because they're held up by arches. And he said, "A three-dimensional arch is a dome." And then I was thinking about the scoop chip, and what I realized is that if you take a scoop chip and turn it upside down, and put it on your fingertip like a thimble, it's a dome.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  It's a dome.

• 30:23Dan Pashman?

  It becomes a dome. And if you do that, I mean, it might be tough with salsa, but you can run that thing through cream cheese and it will not break.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  It's good. Yeah, that's right. That's good. I also commend you for having a rocket scientist and a structural engineer discuss these things.

• 30:40Dan Pashman?

  I don't like to do my own horn, but I'm doing pretty important work here. You know, I mean, there's a lot of problems in the world, and I'm starting with the big ones, and I figured I'd work my way down. And so, thank you. Thank you both for recognizing that. I really appreciate it. It means a lot.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And thank you for thanking us.

• 31:00Dan Pashman?

  Let's just spitball here a little bit. Like, if you could come up with a tortilla chip shape that would be new and different and would solve some of the problems we've discussed, just throw, you know, no bad ideas, what's coming into your mind?

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Animal shapes.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  I like animal shapes. I was gonna say hockey stick.

• 31:18Dan Pashman?

  Oh, to be able to flick salsa at other people?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're saying as a goof, you could do a slapshot. salsa slapshot to Brad.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, we said, what shape would you go to? I think that, I think the hockey stick would be, you know, be great.

• 31:30Dan Pashman?

  Why not just make a chip that's shaped like a spoon?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  But a scoop is a spoon, you know, you just gotta add a ladle, then you've got a spoon.

• 31:37Dan Pashman?

  Imagine if it had a little handle, though, on it.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Why not go, why not go full shovel?

• 31:43Speaker 02

  I wonder,

• 31:46Speaker 02

  I wonder if we're on to something, like, it's always sporting events, like, if you just,

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, football, football-shaped.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Design like,

• 31:53Dan Pashman?

  A football shape could be good.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Baseball thing, you know, with the horse hide on it, the football, the stitching, you know?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  That's smart. A tortilla chip with a horse hide on it. That's smart. That's good thinking, Tom.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Wait, I feel like you're not being sincere. I don't think you know.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  No, horsehide on a tortilla chip. That sounds good.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  And pig and pigskin for the football.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  And pigskin. Yeah, sounds good.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Right? And you just take that off.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Pork rinds, basically. Delicious.

• 32:21Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. I feel like the football shape has potential. Trader Joe's used to have these long board chips, they called them. They were sort of shaped like mini surfboards.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 32:30Dan Pashman?

  Those were very good because they were kind of long and skinny. So you'd had enough chip to grip, enough chip to dip, and yet still small enough to get the whole thing into your mouth.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  That's a good idea.

• 32:39Dan Pashman?

  And with no pointy edges.

• 32:45Dan Pashman?

  As we wrap things up here, we're heading into the Super Bowl, which will soon be followed by March Madness and other kinds of sporting events where people eat and gather. What is your strategy overall for surveying the options? Is there an order that you like to eat in? Do you save the sweets for later? Do you start with wings and then go to pizza? Like, just let's talk strategy overall.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  This is important.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  If we've got like a 1pm tip, you know, I'll try not to eat, especially if I know the snack is something that I really enjoy, you know? And on game day, it's it's a lot of that. I don't want to have had a roast beef sandwich at 2, and then, you know, the tip is at 5 or 4 or something, and I'm just like, you know, I want to have chips. And the way I I do it is I like to have, whatever, the crudite or the steamed broccoli and all that. I like to have that on the table early, and the chips and dip on the table early. And then, then around halftime, for example, because I like to watch the game, that's where it's like, do we have some pizza? Do we have some wings? Do we have like?

• 33:49Speaker 02

  So a lot of it is the discipline to maintain your hunger level and to not go nuts when somebody puts out a bunch of, you know, Doritos.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  It's about maintaining gluttony.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  It's about discipline because you want to eat throughout, and you don't want to go nuts and knock yourself out so that the glucose levels go crazy, and you're just like, ah, now I'm not enjoying the game.

• 34:10Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  You just, it's a it's a tightrope. It's a it's not for everybody. A great game is when the game is exciting and you're into it, and you don't even notice that you're nonstop, you know, shoveling food into your mouth, and you're not sated, right? That's that takes, that seems like. A relatively simple task and it really, really isn't.

• 34:30Dan Pashman?

  Right. I think to sum up what I hear you saying, Tom, and I actually, I really like this as a life mantra. Even gluttony requires discipline.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Yes. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because, you know, if you're eating too much and too many bad things, you know, the risk you take is you're gonna knock yourself out and need a nap.

• 34:51Dan Pashman?

  And then the other risk, you know, if you're just eating mindlessly, then like stomach space is a precious resource. You know, every day has a finite number of bites.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:00Dan Pashman?

  And so if you use up a lot of bites and a lot of stomach space on something at the beginning, that may be good, but it's like, who knows what else the evening has in store? Um, you know, if you've used up a lot of that stomach space resource on chips and dip, and then suddenly someone rolls out a chicken parm sub. You know, you're gonna be upset with yourself. That was a, that was a

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely right.

• 35:20Dan Pashman?

  A big mistake you made.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:22Dan Pashman?

  Right. Michael, tell me your strategy.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  My strategy is somewhat different because I'm gonna go in with a game plan. I'm gonna run some reconnaissance on what I know about the people who are hosting. I wanna know what they're gonna be serving. I wanna know kinda what's gonna be there by the time I get there. So I'm gonna have a game plan. However, battle plan rarely survives first contact with the enemy. So when I show up there.

• 35:47Dan Pashman?

  Is that Sun Tzu?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I may have, I may have some idea about what I'm gonna do, but if the wings look particularly good, I'm going for the wings because the wings are a limited resource. It's not like other people are gonna be thinking about my game plan. They're not gonna be thinking, oh, we better not have the wings now because Black wanted to do that in the second quarter. No. If the wings look good, if the wings look saucy, I'm going for the wings.

• 36:15Dan Pashman?

  Right. So you have a, you have a game plan, but you're, you're prepared to call an audible?

• 36:18Speaker 01

  I have to be able to, to improv, you know? I have to be able to. That's just my comedy background.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Recently, I was at a party where this happened. I had a game plan and then they brought out pigs and blankets. And I was like, alright.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 36:34Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I mean, the game plan goes out the window.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, because it's a small platter with the ketchup and the mustard and the stuff in the middle. And it's like, you know.

• 36:41Dan Pashman?

  And you know those are gonna go fast.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  They're gonna go fast. They're hot now. So it doesn't matter what we were doing.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  When you're getting ready for that party, you're not thinking, I bet they're gonna have pigs in the blanket. I'm gonna go for those first. That pigs and blanket are always gonna be a happy surprise. Nobody's ever planning for the pigs and blanket. You don't know.

• 36:56Dan Pashman?

  And pigs and blankets in particular, like wings are still good when they're room temp. But pigs and blankets are, you know, there's a shelf life there. There's a half-life you gotta be conscious of.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely right.

• 37:07Dan Pashman?

  So, so Michael, your strategy is really more like a buffet-style strategy, which is survey all the options before you start taking.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't see how you can do it any other way.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  What about you? Like, so when you, when you went to the Super Bowl party with the stadium, were you like, I'm gonna eat most of this? Or were you like, alright, so this is for others? Like, what's your, what's your strategy?

• 37:28Dan Pashman?

  So, well, I mean, I already walked into the party knowing that my stadium was not great. And then I had the same experience that probably every single other person had there, which is you walk in and there's pizza, and there's wings, and there's a hero, and there's all other kinds of, there's garlic knots, and there's every other thing that people have brought for all over.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  I hadn't counted on the garlic knots.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Garlic knots.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  I gotta go, I'm going to the garlic knots.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  That knocked us both back a step. We're like, oh.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Right there.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Garlic knots. Oh, boy.

• 38:05Dan Pashman?

  One more strategy that I wanted to share, it's a bit controversial. You tell me what you think. I believe that whether you're making your own wings or buying wings from a place, the wings should be always done with the sauce on the side.

• 38:21Dan Pashman?

  The wings should not be sauced at the time of making. And I'll tell you why, a couple of reasons. Number one, wings are crispy. You cover them in sauce, and especially if they're gonna sit for a little while, they're gonna lose all their crisp. Number two, at a big party, different people want different levels of spice. Some people want barbecue, some people want teriyaki, some people want honey mustard. It's impossible to predict how many of each type of flavor the people, they're gonna want. So if you just cook all the wings and have all the sauces on the side, then you can maintain crisp and you can allow people to choose their dip on a, like, per-person basis. And that way, you never have to worry about having too many hot, or too many mild, or too many honey mustard.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  I, I'm, I'm, I have a few thoughts about this. Most of them are gonna be critical of you. I hate this.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Because, because I take wings seriously, and I don't like that you're so cavalier with these different sauces. Maybe somebody likes a mustard, maybe somebody likes a teriyaki, no. If you're eating wings, there's only one sauce. The sauce is buffalo sauce. You can get it in different increments of spice, but don't, I don't wanna hear about your glazes in your Thai pickled jalapeno curry wings. Don't give me this. If I have a wing, it's gonna be a buffalo wing. And, and I'm sorry, I can't abide. So no, the wings come with sauce. You can also get sauce on the side if you want extra sauce.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  But it's, it, they're gonna be presented as they're made in sauce.

• 40:03Dan Pashman?

  But let, let me ask you, Michael, because you're saying any level of spice with buffalo sauce is acceptable. As I understand it, the original buffalo sauce, when buffalo wings were, and this may be, the story may be a bit apocryphal, but the invention of buffalo wings is supposedly traced to the Anchor Bar in Buffalo, New York. And as I understand it, the original sauce was hot sauce, I believe Frank's Red Hot, and butter. That was the mixture of the original. How can you have buffalo sauce and have it be buffalo sauce, and have them be buffalo wings if it's not spicy?

• 40:38Dan Pashman?

  I mean, it could be hot or extra hot, but, but are mild-

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. No, there, there should always be a level of spice. No question.

• 40:44Dan Pashman?

  Okay, okay.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  It should always be a minimal level of spice. And, and I think the minimum level is whatever Frank's out of the bottle level is. That's your minimum level of spice for a buffalo wing.

• 40:56Dan Pashman?

  All right, we can still be friends.

• 41:01Dan Pashman?

  It was great to chat with you guys, really appreciate it.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Our pleasure.

• 41:05Dan Pashman?

  Been a fan of your, of both of you for so long.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  This was fun.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  I just want to say, thank you for having us. To each the wrong.

• 41:14Dan Pashman?

  Click.

• 41:24Dan Pashman?

  That's Michael Ian Black and Tom Cavanagh, and I can say that after 16 years of waiting, it was as much fun as I thought it would be to talk with them. Check out their podcast, Mike and Tom Eat Snacks, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also catch Mike on the show, Have I Got News For You, on CNN, hosted by friend of the show Roy Wood Jr. Also, Mike's newest kids book, I'm Busy, comes out on February 24th, and Tom's been in a bunch of TV shows over the years, most notably The Flash and Scrubs. They're all available to stream. Next week, ahead of Valentine's Day, we have a very special episode. It's our dating show. For the second time ever, we are pairing up Sporkful listeners, sending them on dates, and recording the whole thing. Will we make any matches? Tune in to find

• 42:07Dan Pashman?

  out. That's next week. If you're looking for more Sporkful episodes, check out last week's show where I chat with comedian Tom Papa. He tells me about getting into sourdough baking long before it was cool, how he attempted vegetarianism until he walked into an Italian deli, and we conduct one of the most surprising taste tests I've ever done, wine and potato chips. You're gonna love this one. Check it out. It's up now. And hey, did you know you can listen to the Sporkful on the Sirius XM app? Yes, the Sirius XM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the

• 42:52Dan Pashman?

  Sirius XM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 42:57Dan Pashman?

  This episode was produced by me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer

• 43:02Speaker 04

  Andres O'Hara.

• 43:03Dan Pashman?

  It was edited by Camille Stanley. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. And I'm Rose in Minneapolis, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 43:29Speaker 05

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• 43:59Dan Pashman?

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