Emma Grede on Owning Your Ambition

Emma Grede started working at 12 and never looked back. Raised by a single mom, she now has four kids and has built billion-dollar businesses with Kim Kardashian at SKIMS and Khloé Kardashian at Good American. When she talks ambition, she’s lived it. She shares real-world wisdom on creating a big career and a life you love, from her “1% better” philosophy to why discipline beats perfection. Emma offers candid advice for women navigating when to have kids, chasing goals, and redefining work-life balance, encouraging everyone to think bigger in her new book, Start With Yourself. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  You know, I love talking to people who change the game. Not just for themselves, but for everybody. And my guest today is doing exactly that. She's the genius co-founder behind Good American and Skims, the first black woman investor on Shark Tank, and one of America's richest self-made women, according to Forbes. But she's also a mom of four, a champion for female founders, and someone who tells it like it is. Y'all, I'm ready to hear her drop some gems. So let's get into it, baby. This is Keke Palmer.

• 0:58Keke Palmer?

  Please welcome Emma Grede.

• 1:05Keke Palmer?

  No, look at you. I love these colors. It's so 70s.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  No, you look so gorgeous. Actually, you know what? I'm gonna, I don't know if it's that kind of show. I'm gonna just readjust myself. Nobody needs that much.

• 1:16Keke Palmer?

  I love that. The hair looks fabulous.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Thank you, honey. Thank you.

• 1:19Keke Palmer?

  How you feeling today?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  I'm feeling glorious, you know. I'm feeling great.

• 1:22Keke Palmer?

  And you live in LA?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  I live here.

• 1:24Keke Palmer?

  OK, cool. Yeah, OK.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Best place in the world to live.

• 1:27Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes I love New York. Sometimes I want to be East Coast girl.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Now, do you, today, you want to be East Coast? Today?

• 1:34Keke Palmer?

  It's probably cold. It's all get out.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  It's cold. It's sunny here. It's gorgeous.

• 1:38Keke Palmer?

  You can't beat the weather. You really can't.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  No, you cannot.

• 1:40Keke Palmer?

  OK, so let's get into this pre-show pull-up questions, because I'm about to get into your mind. So your zodiac sign is a Libra.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:46Keke Palmer?

  Do you know your big three?

• 1:47Speaker 01

  I don't. I think I'm like, I'm Libra, Libra, and something, but I don't know.

• 1:52Keke Palmer?

  Libra, Libra.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  I'm a very Libra, Libra.

• 1:54Keke Palmer?

  Are you close to the Virgo cusp? Like, are you September?

• 1:56Speaker 01

  I'm right on the cusp. I'm September 23rd, so I'm the changeover day. There's a lot of Virgo in this girl over here.

• 2:02Keke Palmer?

  OK, so you do feel some of the Virgo vibe?

• 2:04Speaker 01

  I feel a bit of Virgo vibe.

• 2:05Keke Palmer?

  OK, what are you most grateful for today, everything?

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Honestly, every, like, that's, it's the most simple answer, but I am like naturally default happy person, you know? I'm like an eight. I wake up happy. I wake up very grateful. And, you know, I live in such a way right now that it's easy to be grateful.

• 2:23Keke Palmer?

  What's everything to you?

• 2:25Speaker 01

  You know, when I think about everything from like, I have four kids, right? So it's like the love of the morning. I woke up this morning, like my, my little twins are um potty trained, but my kid had wet herself. And she was like, mom, I'm just so disappointed. And I was like, that's okay. Like, look at, it's all right, you know, and you strip the sheets. And even now, I'm like, I'm just so aware that that age is so fleeting and it's so precious. That I don't even want that to go away.

• 2:52Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? It's like I have a twelve and a nine and two four year olds. And I'm like, I'm fine for the bed being wet. I'm grateful for that.

• 2:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  So when I say everything, I mean every little thing. But I think that's part of my personality. I'm really someone who stops to smell the roses. I'm very aware of the level of privilege that is a part of my life today because it wasn't always there.

• 3:11Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. I love what you said with that because I do think as somebody that's always working and being ambitious, that's something that I've really had to lean more into and that I'm learning to lean more into, especially in my thirties, is the smelling the roses because it really is gratitude for oneself.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:26Keke Palmer?

  In a way that is so deeply required, but we can forget, you know? It's so, it's what's driving us, but then we forget it.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  But you're right. And also, I think when you are successful, what's interesting is you almost start to expect success. And so when it comes, you're already over it because you're on to the next thing. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's no way to live. Like, I'm very much a live for today person. Like, we're not promised tomorrow. Yesterday's gone. It's like, what can you be like so in the moment and so grateful for today? So today, I'm like, I'm with Kiki, like, I'm with this lovely girl. Like, come on.

• 3:57Keke Palmer?

  And does your hand hurt?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  No, why?

• 4:00Keke Palmer?

  Heavy, girl. Okay, it almost blinded me with that hair moving around. I said, okay, miss girl.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Well, I have to tell you, this is my third ring. So not, not the third husband, but the third ring.

• 4:12Keke Palmer?

  And we just, you know, we did upgrades. Stunning, babe.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  It is a good one, right?

• 4:16Keke Palmer?

  So beautiful. It's just gem, just boom.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  You know, you know.

• 4:18Keke Palmer?

  Okay, um, a relationship or friendship non-negotiable for you? I mean, truth, honesty.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  That's all I need.

• 4:24Keke Palmer?

  I feel like we don't sit on it enough, like what it really means to be truthful and honest, like.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  You are so, and that's the point, right? Even when it hurts, because the thing is, when you have real friendships, like, it will hurt sometimes.

• 4:37Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  You need those people around you, and I actually, you know, I always joke that I don't make new friends, you know? It's like I've had the same friends my whole life, but I rely on those people as almost like measures of where I am in my life, do you know what I mean?

• 4:51Keke Palmer?

  Girl, it's so crazy because it's almost like they're an archive.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:54Keke Palmer?

  Like, I have conversations with my friends now where I'm like, bitch, you just reminded me who I was. Like, in this one moment, I forgot I love that. I forgot I used to say that, oh my gosh, like, so it's really amazing when you do have those friendships over those course of those years because they remind you of sometimes, you know, the things that you forgot you said to yourself.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  It's so true, and I have three sisters, I'm the eldest of four girls, and so those girls will remind you every time.

• 5:19Keke Palmer?

  And you're the oldest, wow, yeah, I'm the middle, I'm the middle. Um, okay, what's a question you wish you were asked more in interviews? Reality about the work, I relate deeply to this, and I feel like sometimes it's not as interesting as people want it to be, or, or it's, um, not as cute.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  It's not as cute.

• 5:35Keke Palmer?

  You know?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  It's not as cute, and I don't think people realize how much time I spend in disappointment or in just like sadness.

• 5:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  You know, like, I am somebody that works incredibly hard and a lot of stuff doesn't work out, but that's just not the stuff you post, that's not the stuff most people see. And so I feel like the reality and what I've tried to do in this book, Start With Yourself, is really talk about the mistakes and the things that don't work and what happens when that stuff happens.

• 6:05Keke Palmer?

  I think it's really important to also say that when you are a person that's as successful as yourself because people have to understand that, that, that these aren't the things that can stop you. You actually have to know that that's a part of the process, that's a part of trial and error, that's like you have to learn these things, and so when people don't hear it, I think they assume sometimes that it's just been an easy ride, or even if they don't tell themselves it's been an easy ride, they just assume that everything was consistent or linear.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. No, and you're so right, and actually I take that one step. Further to say that the things that don't work out are so necessary. Because what they do is they inform your next move. And I think it's so unfortunate that for women. We take our mistakes like so to heart.

• 6:46Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Because for most guys, they're like, and they move on to the next thing. And for a woman, it's like, oh, my God, I did this terrible thing. It's like, no, you didn't. A terrible thing happened. Now you move it to the side and you keep going. It's not you. It's just the thing.

• 6:58Keke Palmer?

  My friend said one of her mentors one time told her, don't tell me about what you succeeded at. Tell me about what you failed at. And I thought it was so interesting because it's a way to explore like how you move forward, how, what you do. Like, if you're going to want somebody on your team, you are going to want to know how they're going to deal when things go left. Not just when they go right. So I love that. Um. Who was someone you've met that made you feel starstruck? I mean Oprah.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Only.

• 7:20Keke Palmer?

  When did you guys meet? Like, what happened?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Okay, so I have been in love with Oprah since a child. I used to like. Get up, make the lunches for my little sisters, take them to school. I'd be so exhausted that I'd come back home. Be like, I need to watch Oprah. So I'd put it on the TV and I feel like I learned so much from Oprah. So I've been waiting to meet her like forever and ever and ever. And, you know, we know a lot of people. So I'm at the Diane von Furstenberg Oscar luncheon, right? And everyone's there. And I see Gail. I know Gail a little bit and I'm like. Gail, oh, my God, I don't even say hello. I'm like, Gail, you're going to introduce me to Oprah. And then she does, and you know, she does like a Gail call down the lawn. She's like, Oprah. So then she's like walking towards me. It's so dramatic. This is how I remember it. She's like walking towards me.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  And I have nothing to say. Nothing. I leave my sunglasses on. I get really overcome. I sweat through my dress. And I just like, you know, do this. And, you know, she's used to that. Like, she's used to people and she's like. And she's so sweet and she's holding my hand and she's like, okay, you know, I can feel her like. I had nothing to say.

• 8:26Keke Palmer?

  That was me with Barack Obama. I met President Barack Obama or prior President Barack Obama. I don't know even what to say even now.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  We call him President Barack Obama.

• 8:34Keke Palmer?

  President Barack Obama, period. We love him. And when I met him, girl, I literally was like.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  I understand that. I understand that, although I'm on the board of the Obama Foundation, so I have to have my words.

• 8:47Keke Palmer?

  Oh, did you have to flex right here right now?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  So I have to have my words together when, you know.

• 8:54Keke Palmer?

  She said, I got my wits about me with my colleagues.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  You're what?

• 9:00Keke Palmer?

  I'm Kylie.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  I'm still like that.

• 9:01Keke Palmer?

  So what's a mantra you live by and why? You said, "Make a decision and move on."

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:06Keke Palmer?

  Really decisive, which is not actually very Libra.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Right, like, no, and I feel like I've had to train myself to do that. And I feel like so much of the work I do is constantly being in training for the type of person that you want to be. I don't wanna be indecisive. I don't wanna waste time. And so it's like, I do things, I'm decisive, I lead from my gut most of the time. But I also make a lot of mistakes, but I don't let them stifle me. You know, it's like, the mistake happens, I'm moving on.

• 9:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, that's so important to me with life. Sometimes we hold on to so much shame for [BLEEP]. We just had to let, you know, we can't even move forward today.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Let it go.

• 9:37Keke Palmer?

  We ain't let it go. Let's talk about you growing up, because you just mentioned it a little briefly. But you kind of grew up raising your three sisters. I know your mom was a single mom, working at Morgan Stanley. So she was busy trying to make sure she brings that bread. And you were there to support your sisters. Tell me, take me back to those early days.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  You know, it's so funny when you say it like that, because we, we have an interest in family dynamic. It's like, my mom's the dad, I'm the mom, and we got three kids together. You know? And I always laugh at that, because, you know, we have a very interesting dynamic between me and my mom, and then between me and the sisters. But you know what it's like, when you're little, you don't know any better. And, you know, for me, there was no question that, "Am I gonna help my mom?" My mom was like, "Hoover the stairs, make the dinner, and get your kids, like, your kids, get your sisters to school."

• 10:20Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  And so I did what my mom told me to do. There, there wasn't like, you know, I never felt sorry for myself, I never felt disadvantaged. It was like, "This is what you need to do to get through the day." And I think what it gave me is this tremendous sense of, A, I can do stuff. You know, I could make a roast dinner for seven people by the time I was 12 years old. You know, it's like, I was accomplished, I could do stuff. But also, I am, I knew the value of everything. I didn't take anything for granted. So if you gave me five pounds, you know, five dollars, I knew that that was worth something. And so there was no like, you know, flitting around. I was like, "Okay, now what do I do with this?" Because that, for me, was changing my circumstance. And I would, you know, buy magazines, fashion magazines, and I would dream a little bit.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  But everything was worth something, you know, there was nothing kind of given to me. And so even today, like, everything I have, I attribute value to it. And I actually think that makes me very good at my job.

• 11:14Keke Palmer?

  I mean, you've had a job since you were 12 years old. Selling newspapers, working in delis. What are some of the skills from those early days that you find yourself still leaning on as a CEO? I mean, the money, I'm hearing you talk a lot about economics, like, you know, that's incredible.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I really love, and I feel like as women, we need to talk a lot more about money. But to answer your question, I think there's a couple. The first one is like this idea of the power of the mornings. When you have a paper out, you get up at like 4:30 a.m. And you see all of these people, these early morning workers. And I was just not accustomed to that, you know. We're a late night family in my family, we're not an early family. And so to me, I was like, what are they all doing? Like, what are those jobs? What are the things that they are like up so early for? And it was almost like, I didn't know it then, but it was almost like a meditation. You know, you'd be so quiet, you'd have your little coffee. And I'd go and deliver my papers. And it taught me that there's like this sort of magical time that now as a mom of four, I'm like, that 5 to 6 a.m., I'm like, that's me.

• 12:11Keke Palmer?

  It's fabulous.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  The best, the best. And every woman and every person should kind of like, understand like how you set up your day. And I feel like the morning is the time that I say, here's what's important. These are the things that need to get done. And then the other thing that having all of these little jobs taught me was like, how being excellent at something can make such a difference. So when you work in a deli, you've got to learn to slice that ham like real thin, the Palmer ham. And you've got to learn to make an amazing sandwich. And people would notice that, they'd wait for me, you know, they'd be like, I want her to make my sandwich.

• 12:41Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Right, and so, but for me, I was just like, oh. But it taught me like the 1% rule, that if you just make like a pair of jeans, 1% better in the waistband, 1% better in the stretchability, 1% better in the hardware, 1% better in the wash, you have an incredible product. So I think that that's testament to the way that I do business. I try to make every little thing better. And by the time you've done 10 things better, you're better than everyone else.

• 13:04Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, I love that. And that's like, I feel like I'm very much always going the extra mile. And a lot of times I used to feel like guilty about that, like, am I, should I be doing less? But as the years have gone with my career, I've realized that that 1%, as you so put it, it really does make a difference.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  It really does.

• 13:20Keke Palmer?

  What time do you get up in the morning now? Which you kind of said, maybe like 5 a.m., but what time do you go to bed?

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so I get up at five, I'm like in the bed at ten fifteen, I've never been a good sleeper. So I'm like probably not asleep until like eleven, maybe eleven thirty, but I don't need much, I need the rest. Like to me, it's like that time of like no one speaking to me.

• 13:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Like that's the part.

• 13:40Keke Palmer?

  Do you have a particular wind down routine that you do or anything that helps you get in the mood? I've been really into, this is simple, right? But I've been into just the eye mask.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Oh, I love an eye mask.

• 13:49Keke Palmer?

  So much for some reason, like I really do feel like I've really aged. You know what, I'm doing all the stuff in the movies, like I'm up now, I'm early bird catches the worm. I'm like in the bed by nine.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  I really age.

• 14:00Keke Palmer?

  Girl, I'm brilliant.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  You don't wanna see me, I do all the masks, I've got the infrared mask, I've got the head mask, I've got eye mask, like.

• 14:07Keke Palmer?

  It helps.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  I do all the things, but you know, it's like, I like all that stuff, but you know what I like more than anything? I like my husband next to me, I like a sleepy tea and I wanna chat. You know, like I, that's, that's what I like, like I wanna like that, I just like.

• 14:21Keke Palmer?

  I think it's so cool, cause I know your husband, he's also incredibly, uh, you know, in, in business, he has frame. I mean, it's very, okay, she's like, I look at the ring.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Wasn't always like that, no.

• 14:33Keke Palmer?

  But this is rare, I don't wanna say this is rare, right? But I think sometimes we don't often see the businesswoman that has it all together, have her stuff going on. And then also a partner. How did you guys meet? Like, how did this love happen and, and, and were you both always very that, you know, that ambitious?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say that we were both very ambitious. My husband was my first investor. So, let's do that part first. I, when, so I had a company and, um, we worked together. And when I decided to go out on my own, I went to him and his business partner for investment. And that was the first time I'd ever raised money. And I had to go to a few other places as well, I went to some clients and I did a little friends and family round. But I have been in business with my husband for longer than he's been my husband. And so we had that work piece figured out, like two ambitious people with a similar idea of life. Doing something that we really believed in and then I married him.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  And I think that, you know, he's the type of person that has a lot of respect for my. Ambition, he's the type of person that, you know, he's Swedish and in Sweden, they have a very matriarchal kind of society. Yeah, I mean, it's like that, that's how it is. I mean, you might do. I mean, because what you find is like all of these men that look after their kids in the same way, you know, like we see like a lot of women after they've had babies. You know, looking after their kids and they take some time off of work. Well, in Sweden, as a society, that is not default the mum. Sometimes it's the dad and the dad will take nine months off of work. And the society is obviously set up for them to be able to do that. So that's a different thing.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Having said that, the it is never like, okay, the mother, it's her responsibility to do all these things with the kids.

• 16:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, it's not gender, it's not rules based solely off of gender.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Ah, quite the opposite. And so I think that having that type of husband has really helped and he's ambitious too. He has a whole life and a whole career and we support each other.

• 16:30Keke Palmer?

  I love that, that and I'm so happy for you. It's a blessing. Um, so after initially enrolling in London College of Fashion, you left before graduation to pursue your career. How did you know that was the right decision for you, especially in a society, I mean, I'm sure it's the same in London, definitely in America. School is very much pushed as the way, the only gateway to success. Thoughts are different now, but especially back then.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Um, I couldn't afford it. It just came down to the fact that I was in school, I'd left home. Um, for, for many, many different reasons, but I wasn't getting on with my mum and she was like, well, then you can get out. And I couldn't afford to go to school every day. I had to work. And in my mind, I had such a dream of working in fashion that I wasn't really willing to sacrifice my dream, but I couldn't have both. And so it was just one of those things where I had to go, well, what, what do you do, right? At the moment, I can see there's a job here that's kind of in fashion that pays me or there's school. And so I had to go where the money was and it wasn't an easy decision. But when I look back on it, I really said to myself, okay, I'm gonna split this idea of work.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  And learning. And so I did like a year and a half of internship. So I kind of, you know, if you've got seven days, I would do three that I worked for free and be paid for the other four. So in my mind, I was like, I'm still learning, I'm keeping my foot in, I'm working towards what I wanted to do. But it was probably the hardest eighteen months of my life. Because I had no money, you know, like my, my wage just about paid for my train ticket. And it was tough. It was a very difficult time. I was living in a high rise in East London. I kept my milk on the balcony because I didn't have a fridge. I didn't have a stove. Well, it's keeping it cold. In England, it's cold. And you know, the milk will get a little funny, but I'll be like, it don't matter, it's okay to tea, you know? Like, you just do what you have to do. You know, like, you just go through.

• 18:09Keke Palmer?

  That is so funny.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the truth.

• 18:11Keke Palmer?

  What would you say to young people that are wrestling with that conversation with themselves? Whether they should go to school, if they should actually just get out there and get some real life experience?

• 18:27Keke Palmer?

  Do you hear that? Baby, a warm getaway must be calling my name because spring has officially sprung. We're saying buh-bye to endless winter layers and hello to sunny beach season. I finally have a little time off coming up, and with my crazy schedule, that's rare. So, I'm thinking of a long weekend escape with my family. The question is coastal Santa Barbara vibes or desert stay in Palm Springs? All I know is that when I'm planning a trip, booking a stay on Airbnb just makes everything easier. I just love having a whole house to ourselves. We can each have our own space, no cramped hotel rooms to worry about, and come together for fun movie marathons or epic game nights in the living room.

• 19:10Keke Palmer?

  Everyone can be as loud as they want because things can get competitive, y'all. And let's face it, a meal is better shared around a table than a bed, especially when it's my dad's cooking. But here's the real magic. We get to play locals, wandering through neighborhood parks and popping into all the best family-owned, under-the-radar restaurants on the recommendations of our lovely super host. Mmm, you already know I love a good food tour moment. So, if you're planning spring or summer getaways with your favorite people, find a stay on Airbnb. Trust me, that home away from home feeling can't be topped.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  So, look, I think that the ideal thing, and as a mother of four, I want all of my kids to make the most of their education. But I am highly dyslexic, and I didn't find out until I was in my mid-20s. So, learning for me was hard. It didn't come easy. I struggled. I was a bad student. Ideas didn't land properly, like, homework was hard for me, and everything just felt clunky. And so, I think that what you have to do is... Really know yourself, like it's not like I'd said, okay, let me just go and do nothing. I was like, okay, how am I gonna supplement my learning? And one of the things that I really believe about myself is I'm always in learning mode, Kiki.

• 20:23Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Wherever I am, I'm gonna be learning. And so it's like if the traditional education system isn't for you, then you've got to figure out what is for you. You can't just go and like throw it to the wind and expect something to happen. You've got to engineer a situation that is gonna give you what you're losing over here. So I'm like, then engineer that situation, but don't wait for anyone else. And that's what start with yourself is about. I'm not ever looking for somebody to come and hand me something. I'm gonna craft a situation for myself regardless of what's happening. So you've got to do that.

• 20:52Keke Palmer?

  How do people find this in themselves? What what are the things or the practices that have been a part of your life that have allowed you to actually know your voice? Because this is like someone knowing their voice. And I find this very difficult when I'm talking to people that are trying to build a brand or just trying to engineer their life. They don't even know how to get get to the truth of what they're asking for. They're still stuck at money, fame and not having to worry about, like it's the surface stuff, not what really drives them. How do we get there?

• 21:19Speaker 01

  So I think there's a couple of pieces of this. The first one is, and you know this, as you get older, your job becomes like how you get closer to yourself. And what I mean by that is to understand like, who am I and what makes me happy? What are the things that I uniquely do well? And I think because I grew up like really fast, right? Because I was a parent by the time I was twelve, I learned that a little bit quicker. And so you can't be trying to please other people. You know, I always talk about this idea of you can't be a people pleaser and a leader. So when you're trying to lead yourself, it has to be similar. It's got to come from the things that are true for you. And that idea of always chasing what feels glossy, what feels like, you know, interesting is not always the truth of what you really want.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  So the first thing that you've got to do is get down to like, what is it that I really want? And then a healthy dose of realism, because it takes a long time. And what I talk about and the reason I said that question of like the reality of the work. I want to show like how long it takes, because I've had a job since I was Twelve years old. I'm forty three now and everyone's like, oh, look at her. But it's like, yeah, do you know what, do you know what I did? Like, let me take you through the journey. And also, I think just knowing that it is a journey, life has chapters. And so you might just be in a chapter where, you know, the chapter's actually about like this kind of hard landing where things don't all work out for you. And then you're moving to another chapter where

• 22:44Speaker 01

  actually the groundwork that you laid here does something over here, but I don't know anyone who's an overnight success. And if they are, they're gone tomorrow. So it's better to do the slow and steady.

• 22:54Keke Palmer?

  It is, and what you're saying is so true because the, from the truth piece, which you were saying, I'm, I'm big on truth too, because not just um, in this moral ethical way, but as, as being accurate. The more truthful I am, the more accurate the outcome is. And the other reality is everything will have its time. I think sometimes, a lot of times, we, we put this pressure on ourselves that it has to happen by this, or we compare ourselves to somebody else and that, but the truth is, everybody has their time and alignment comes, comes for all of us in different phases of our life.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  I think you're a hundred percent right about that. And one of the things that I did very early was kind of get a hold of my emotions. And I think oftentimes, we can be very led by our emotions, especially as women. I had a severe anger problem that I had to really get in check. Yeah, it's true. It's like, like really bad.

• 23:41Keke Palmer?

  Like nineteen, you did.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I feel like I had it and still have it. And, and it's one of those things that you manage, right? Like, you don't just get rid of it. It's like, it's there. You just gotta.

• 23:50Keke Palmer?

  How did it show up for you? Was it just internal? Was it your thoughts on you?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  No, I feel like it was one of those things that I hadn't been taught. And I love this, you know, I have kids now and they go to a very progressive school and they meditate and they know how to breathe. No one ever told me that. I just thought the way to deal with any problem was to lash out and to be the angriest one there and to be the biggest and the hardest one there. And where I came from, that was. The default, that was what you were trying to do, to aim for. And so I had to really learn the hard way. I had to learn that that wasn't something that was gonna help me get to where I wanted to be. But equally, neither is guilt, right? Neither is, you know, some of the other things that we kind of go through our lives with. Like if you're a people pleaser, that is not going to help you

• 24:38Speaker 01

  be successful. So I think learning to deal with your emotions and when I wrote this book, I almost wrote it backwards. I wrote about building a business and a brand and what it means to create like the career of your dreams. And then I was like, how did I do that? Oh yeah, I got ahead of my emotions. So then I wrote all about emotions and then, you know, I wrote about vision.

• 24:56Keke Palmer?

  Indexing.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  And it's so interesting because I kind of went backwards, you know, but I really wanted this to be a blueprint for successful women. I want people to understand what it really takes.

• 25:06Keke Palmer?

  Trying to distill your process, especially as a survivor, because I'm hearing a lot of that in your story, you know, you're not thinking about all the things, you're not indexing yourself while you're doing it, you're following your instincts. So I imagine this was probably, I mean, you tell me how difficult, but also how interesting it was to observe yourself in this way while trying to distill these, you know, this blueprint for other women to follow.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  It's very, very hard, but by the same token, I think there's so much out there, you know, everyone wants to be an entrepreneur now. Everybody wants to be a founder. And I think there's a lot in our culture that really, really tells women the opposite of what is true. We have been socially conditioned to enact behaviors that actually keep you away from wealth, that keep you away from visibility and opportunity. And so what I'm trying to say is that there's all these rules that are out there that actually don't apply. They're not for you. They're ingrained in the culture, but you've got to be able to move away from them. And so as I was going through this, I was like, what have I actually done that's been meaningful?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Like, don't think about actually starting the brand. It's like, what is the behavior that's brought me there? And so I think that when you can start to get your head around those behaviors and really under Understand the stuff that's ingrained in the culture and why it's not so, that's what becomes really helpful.

• 26:29Keke Palmer?

  I'm really excited to read this book, really, really. As the daughter of a white English mother and a black Jamaican Trinidadian father.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Can I just, can I just say something there? So everybody always gets really confused here. My, my father is Trinidadian, but I was raised by a Jamaican stepdad. So when, when they write it online, they go Jamaican Trinidadian, da, da, da, da. I'm like, no. It's like, exactly. We've got all the things going on. So I have an English mum, I have a Trinidadian real dad, but raised by the stepfather who was Jamaican. So the bottom line is I know how to cook jerk chicken. Like, that's it. That's all, that's basically all that matters.

• 27:04Keke Palmer?

  You didn't mention roast. Now we had jerk chicken, baby girl, she could cook.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, I am a good cook.

• 27:09Keke Palmer?

  Girl, yes, and a Trinidadian flavor up in there too. Um, okay, how has the multicultural background impacted the way you think about beauty, belonging, and obviously your, you know, what's become your brand?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Actually, I think in an enormous way, because where I grew up, the idea of beauty was much broader than what was in the kind of fashion community, right? So if you think about the time when I was born, it was like the moment of like Brit pop and Brit art and Kate Moss and heroin chic. It was like thin, but that was never the beauty ideals that were in my family. It was like the curvier, the better, the more gleaming your skin is. You know, like it was, it was just not that. And so with my family, I really learned to have an appreciation for the female form. And so when I started Good American, that was at the forefront of my mind. It was like, how can you bring that beauty front and center? And having worked in the fashion business for fifteen years prior, I was very aware that

• 28:00Speaker 01

  anything that was done around size and race was very performative. It was about putting somebody in a campaign, while nobody at the company looked like that. It was about creating this idea that, you know, we've got all of these sizes, when the reality was that the sample was cut in the back and, you know, you couldn't go round and look at the model from the other side. So I was like, I'm gonna create a brand that's in my beauty ideal, that really thinks about all women and thinks about what people want, because it was my understanding that just because of the size of your butt, it didn't mean that you wanted something different, right? And the fashion industry is very, very largely run by white men. And so my idea of what I could do there was like based on this, you know, understanding of what is beautiful.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  And what is going to make sense for most customers. And so I came at it from a very, very different place.

• 28:50Keke Palmer?

  I mean, and the demand has been clearly there since day one. I mean, when you talk about Good American, it did one million dollars in sales the first day. Skims generated two million in minutes. And I mean, both of them, three billion for Good American and Skims, five billion.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, it's a lot of numbers. What I like is, you know, cash money. Like, I think the people always, people always get like, they're like, you know, oh my goodness. Numbers, it's crazy.

• 29:14Keke Palmer?

  Take us to Shark Tank, bro.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Well, that's what matters, right? It's like, look, I think that when, especially the time that we're in now. People are bombarded by this idea that if it's not a unicorn, it's not worth it. Like, I have a friend. And I love her. She's called Renata Quagliata, and she is Brazilian and she's beautiful. And she makes these heavenly necklaces. And she sells them to the best stores in the world. And that's her business. That pays her. She employs like four or five like single mums in upstate New York and they crochet these beautiful things for her. That's also a business.

• 29:44Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  So I want to kind of get out of this idea that everything has to be a trillion dollars to be worth it. Because the idea of business is much less about the cash that you generate and much more about like, what is my life? What is the freedom that that affords you? What does this allow me to do? So it's like, yeah, it's great. I've done some things that have been very successful. I also had a ton of businesses that didn't do.

• 30:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Right? So it's like, and somewhere in between that, it's like, yeah, I learned and some things got good, but you can't engineer those things.

• 30:12Keke Palmer?

  But I love this idea around visibility because I speak a lot about this too, too, when I'm talking and people are asking me about business like. Everybody doesn't have to love what you do for it to be successful. And success is defined by you. Are you making what your destination point was this year or that year?

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 30:27Keke Palmer?

  Um, I want to dive into the celebrity of it all. And why that was something that you want to lean into. And if you saw a lot of power in that, because some people could say that's the whole power. But I don't imagine that to be true. So what are the pluses of working with people that have a name and a platform? And what are the things that are different? About that, that you still have to do that. Nobody knows you're doing behind the scenes.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Totally. I mean, I'd spent so fifteen years before I started Good American. I had built a group of agencies and that was the first company that I ever sold. So my business was working on behalf of brands. And putting them together with celebrities. So there's no one who's done more celebrity deals than me. I put Natalie Portman into a. You know, Dior campaign or Gwyneth Paltrow into Hugo Boss. Like you know how this stuff works, right? So I really understood how when talent comes into a brand, the acceleration can go like this. But at the end of the day, it's all down to product. And so I have a very good appreciation and understanding for how. That kind of initial power that comes with that partnership really propels something.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  But no one comes back twice to buy a bad product. They don't. So it's like the business, the brand, the logistics, everything has to speak for itself. And what I do is build companies. And so I really think about the two things as being like. Beautiful and symbiotic, but you can't have one without the other. And the two things need to like fit together. And when you have great partnerships, it's amazing. You know, it's like I've had good partnerships. I've had bad partnerships. I've been in lots and lots of different businesses that have done different kind of levels of greatness. Or have just kind of fallen down. And I can honestly say that there isn't one component where you could say, ah, it was like that thing.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  It's always like the culmination of so many different things. And I always say, you know, a lot of people say, oh, you know, she's like. The self made this and the self made that. Like, do you know how many people I work with every day? Do you know many people? There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people at my office and every one of them matters. And so I think when you start at the bottom, you have a massive appreciation. For what everybody does along the way. And there's no one piece that is more important than the other.

• 32:34Keke Palmer?

  Well, I think that's so true. In my mind, whenever I look at somebody that has a great business is they also are smart enough to have a great team. When you look at the people that have allowed your business to be successful and to help you to develop your business acumen, what is the star front team? What are you going to start your business like? I gotta have the blah, blah, blah. I gotta have the data. Like who, what is the line?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Well, let me tell you, because the first. They're still with me, which makes me so happy. All in different companies and different things. But I went out to dinner maybe three weeks ago with the four original people that started Good American. One of them has his own amazing marketing agency. He doesn't work for me anymore, but he does still take. He does still take pictures of me because he's a really good photographer. Um, one of them works in one of my businesses called Off Season, the other one works at Elder Statesman and the other one works at Skims. And so it's really interesting when you look at like what happens to people. For me, first of all, it's always going to be about the product, what you are making. Like, forget about marketing. People get obsessed with marketing, obsessed with social. Whatever you do in the beginning has to be about the thing that you are going to sell, whether that's a digital product, a physical product.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Make that the best thing that it can be because when somebody gets that, the marketing's figured out for itself. They're going to tell their friend, they're going to tell their mom, it's going to tell somebody else, and this flywheel starts to happen. But that never happens. Unless you have something great in the beginning. So I like to focus the first people that come into the business as being those product people. Then you've got to be reflective. You've got to say, what am I not? What am I uniquely good at? And what are my weak spots? And you hire for those weak spots. And so when I think about that original group of people, they were A, American, they had an amazing understanding of the American market as it pertained to denim. They were people that had excellent relationships that I didn't have with retailers and buyers and vendors.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  And so that's how I crafted the team. I was like, I know what I'm good at, but these are the places that I'm missing and you fill in for those places.

• 34:24Keke Palmer?

  Oh, that's incredible advice. What lets you know that a product is good? Because you also are matchmaking, whether it's with a celebrity or with the team. And you're deciding, you're seeing the value in something. That's like somebody that, that's taste. I mean, how do you know? How did you build your taste? How did you know that this is gonna work?

• 34:40Speaker 01

  It's the hardest thing.

• 34:42Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  This is where it comes in handy, being from where I'm from. Because I don't lie to myself, because when I was a kid, there was no time for that. Do you know what I mean?

• 34:52Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  But it trains you to not be full of it, because some people can speak themselves into anything. I can't. It's like, I know when something's good and I'm willing to take the feedback and I'm willing to hear the hard stuff. So what you. Do when you've got a product, you intrinsically think it's good, but you've got to throw it out there. You've got to get as many people to try it, to buy it, to give you feedback. And then you've got to take the feedback because that's what people don't like. So you use your gut instinct, mix with other people's feedback and you constantly iterate and perfect. And one of the things I think people get wrong about businesses is they think that the first thing is the thing. No, your business, your purpose, your uh what it is that you set out to do should never change. Everything else needs to change. The staff changes, the product evolves, the business changes shape.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  The initial reason for being should stay the same and everything else transitions on the way up. And people get so stuck to their ideas that they don't move quickly enough. What I have done is constant iteration. You make everything better all the time.

• 35:50Keke Palmer?

  How do you know you're doing that without taking the integrity away from the core thing? Because I'd imagine that's the question that people ask themselves, especially as more people become part of something.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Great question. That is a great question. That's where having like a purpose comes from, right? So if you boil it down, when we started Good American, we were like, we're gonna make clothes for all people. The best fitting jeans for every size of butt, right? That was it. Zero, zero through twenty four. That meant that when Neda Porte came to me and said, Emma, we want to buy your jeans sizes zero through ten. That was a million dollars. A million dollars in the beginning of business is a lot of money.

• 36:25Keke Palmer?

  Yes, it is.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  But it went against our principles. So we had to say no, right? So it's like you've got to be willing to take that purpose, that thing that you've said in the beginning that are your principles and make your decisions based off of those things. Because otherwise you get into this slippery slope of a constant, you know, uh we like winding back of what you said you stood for.

• 36:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  So it's like you can't just write the principles down and go, okay, here's our principles. You've got to take those principles and you've got to use them to make decisions. And that helps you what you say yes to and what you say no to.

• 36:58Keke Palmer?

  There's that truthful thing again.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 37:00Keke Palmer?

  Being real, keeping it real. Um you're often the strategic force behind globally recognized personalities. But as a founder, that isn't always the face, which I think this is changing much with you. We're seeing you more, we're hearing from you more, which is I think very important. But how do you? Work power in partnerships and knowing even at the point that you're in now that you wanna be seen and you want people to know that you're behind all this.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think that there's two parts of this, right? If you have great partners, you don't do the same thing. Like, different people have different strengths. So I think that's the first thing, like, really understanding your strengths and that's part of being good at what you do, like, knowing what you bring to the table and knowing what you don't. And I think what happened to me, Kiki, is that I kind of went around and, you know, I was doing what I do. And people started asking me questions. And what I realized is it's not small at the top, it's minuscule. And so if you're a girl like me that has very little education and very little access in the beginning. And you start to see that over and over again, it becomes your responsibility to be the change, to be the shift.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  And oftentimes, people were asking me questions that I had answers for. I was like, oh, yeah, I know where you can do that. I understand that. I know what you should pay for. You should probably speak to my lawyers. You need IP protection, so I could help people.

• 38:16Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Right? So it's like you feel this responsibility because you're like, I know that and that that's what's stopping you. So to me, it became this sort of mixture of I can do it and I have the access. I have done it and I can be really honest about the mistakes I've made. And also what I really want isn't more companies and, you know, more like things to put trillions of dollars behind. What I want is for there to be like a million little lemmars, a million girls who you wouldn't on paper think could do it, and yet they can because they've been given the opportunity and the information and the access. And so that's how I think about my work now. I'm like, this stuff is not about who can, it's about who gets to. And so I'm just gonna make sure that a bunch of people get to.

• 39:03Keke Palmer?

  Yes. I mean, how has this, as your businesses have grown, how does that impact or even grow your relationships with people like Kim and Chloe that you've done Good American and Skims with?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  How does it grow my business?

• 39:14Keke Palmer?

  How does it change and impact your relationship?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Do you know what? It's it's really interesting because I think as long as everybody is doing what you set out to do, nothing really changes. You know, it's like, I think that we've always been in this situation where everybody does like a bunch of things. I have had lots of different businesses and lots of different opportunities. And they've had different businesses and different opportunities. And, you know, I, I think the truth is, Kiki, like, success sorts everything out.

• 39:41Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  When you're doing well, everybody's happy.

• 39:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, period, period. Um, so we have to talk about the Diary of a CEO, work-life balance conversation.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Do we?

• 39:50Keke Palmer?

  Because.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Do we?

• 39:52Keke Palmer?

  I mean.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  What are you talking about?

• 40:02Keke Palmer?

  What were you thinking when you got this feedback? Were you gagged?

• 40:06Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  No, buy the book. Let me tell you, one of the key reasons that I wrote this book was because I wanted people to understand some of the comments that I've made. Because I am very honest and I am very truthful and I do say what is my truth. The, the important thing to know here is that, you know, I'm not an expert on a podcast telling you what one, two, three things I can do. I am showing you the way it has worked for me.

• 40:36Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  And I am honest about those things. And what I think is that work from home culture is a career killer for women. And let me explain to you why. Remembering that I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of women that work for me. Now, what is happening is that we talk about all of this sort of upside of Zoom culture, but none of the rigidity of it. And no one will really tell you. But careers require proximity and visibility. You want a pay rise? You want the next promotion? You want the big corner office? Guess what? You need to be there. You might not want to hear it because it might be comfortable in your living room. But the facts are the facts and I'm not here to sugarcoat information or to load women up with toxic positivity.

• 41:20Keke Palmer?

  Also, I don't want to say, uh, push us out, but it's almost slowly a way to be like, you're not needed or you don't really, it's not a, there's no urgency because you're away.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  It's eroding the potential for women to be successful.

• 41:34Keke Palmer?

  Interesting.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Period, end off. Your boss won't tell you that because they're not allowed to tell you. The way we have built human resource culture in this country and the rest of the Western world is that no one can have that conversation with you. But the truth is the truth. It just is. If you're not there, if you're not in the room, there is going to be somebody else that is. And guess what? Like, they will get that opportunity over you. This is not about like whether or not these things are true or properly understood or whether they're right, quite frankly. Because I know that for some people, they're like, but wait a minute, I need this flexibility. The way that we all come into work now is that, and I, listen, I run organizations that are very flexible.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Nobody misses things that they need to do, a dentist appointment, an appointment with their kids because they have to be in work from this hour to this hour. There's a level of flexibility that's assumed in the workplace right now. But I think it's a little bit like this idea that we've built for ourselves that you're like, you know, you can listen your way to success. Like, if I just stack all these podcasts, like, I'm gonna get really successful. No, ambition has to find you working. And work is just work.

• 42:43Keke Palmer?

  I think about this a lot when I think about words like responsibility and accountability. And I do feel like sometimes in work culture, we can find ourselves giving all of that power to our employers. Um, because we don't know how to exercise no. We don't know how, when it's our point in our turn to extend a boundary or to walk away if we need to. And so I think about those things when we talk about these comments or just employee and work culture. And I'm curious, even if it's just us looking at our own selves, what's your relationship to responsibility and accountability when it comes to work-life balance?

• 43:16Speaker 01

  It's yours. It's yours. And it's very, very important that you take it seriously and that you match it with what it is that you're trying to achieve. So it is not for everybody that you want to give more, extend the boundaries, work extra. That's for those ambitious little monsters that want a lot of success. And not everybody needs to be like that. Having said that, if you are those people, realize that you will need to go the extra mile. Did not wake up one day, Kiki, and like fall into your latest movie. You auditioned, you worked, you practiced, you took good jobs, not so good jobs. You changed agent, you move over here, you adapt the team, you learn, you go to classes. You have to do all of this stuff and that's the truth of it.

• 44:01Keke Palmer?

  And I do know that this is a fine line, but I find it so interesting. And I'm not comparing your comments to his, but when we do hear men, like even we think about President Obama saying there is no work life balance.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  He said the exact same thing, him and Mark Cuban.

• 44:13Keke Palmer?

  I think it's very interesting because yeah, I agree with you.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  No, because your expectation of me is that if I don't say something warm and cuddly and empathetic and put it in a way that is digestible for women, because women might not be able to hear it in the same way. That somehow I'm wrong, but the truth is women can take it. We can take the information and then we can make the decision. And again, it's about you get to make that decision. You don't have to do that. But it's like, at least have the information. Don't be sitting there thinking, oh my goodness, I wonder why all of this great stuff isn't happening for me when I am logging into that Zoom all the time. It's like, well.

• 44:51Keke Palmer?

  And I think both things can be true in meaning. There is hyper functioning, there is overdoing it, but there are also seasons of I gotta go for it. And then you check yourself. Like I've had to do that with myself. I've been running for so many years, working, working, working. I don't regret any of it. I have been putting it out on the line. I have been acting like I won't get fed tomorrow. That's how much I've been going for it. But then there's also a season where you say, okay, what we did now. Let me have gratitude for what all those years did for me. Let me sit back and now let me choose. Now I can say because of the work I put in and what I decided to do for these first 20 years of my career, then now as we get into 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, I can start to rearrange. And I think that's also something that I want people to understand is like

• 45:35Keke Palmer?

  there is this reality that you can't get around this hard work. This extreme hard work, if that's what you want.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  But and that's what it comes back to. Listen. Extraordinary careers come with extraordinary effort. And again, it's only about right sizing your ambition to the amount of work that you're willing to put in. And I do think. Think it's about seasons. You know, I look at my kind of late teens and throughout my twenties as this time where I didn't have any big responsibilities and I write about this a lot because it's like there is a moment in your life where that is the time, like that's the time you put the pedal to the metal and you go for it. But you need to remember that life is long and that it comes in chapters and there will be times where you don't have to play that game anymore, that you don't have to do that. But it's like, you really need to think about like, what is it that I want like?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Am I looking for this big career? Am I looking for a family? Because I also think what's happened is that you know, women have been taught right now to that they should delay like families and having children. And you know, I was really lucky. I had two kids in my early thirties and when I went I wanted to have more kids, the option was no longer mine. And I thought in my head, I was like, but wait a minute. I thought I'd be fine to have a kid my late thirties, early forties. Now, listen, Kiki, I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy. I'm just saying that waiting until you're thirty eight probably isn't a good idea either, right? It's like careers have timelines, your fertility doesn't, like it's just that simple, like your fertility comes in a specific moment and you have to work within that window.

• 47:09Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  End off.

• 47:10Keke Palmer?

  And then it gets difficult because not everybody believes in surrogacy or not everybody believes.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Right, and not everybody believes in IVF. By the way, I will say for the record, I have done both of those things. I had my twins by surrogate. I had multiple rounds of failed IVF. In fact, they worked, but I lost babies, but that's a different conversation. No, it was very sad, but I think, listen, there's a lot of optionality if you have the means. Not everybody has that. And so if you're working with nature and you're working with a regular budget and a regular salary, you will need to think about whether or not you want to have children and that has a timeline on it and it's not for everyone.

• 47:45Keke Palmer?

  I think you bring up a lot of interesting things that are important that whether people agree or not, it's, these are the conversations that we should be having. All of us are trying so hard to just get it right. We want to work. The economy is crazy. We're trying to figure out entrepreneurship because we don't want to work for the man or whatever, you know what I mean? So it's, you know, we have to tab the conversation. So I really am excited for people to hear what you have. Say on these things because yeah, like I wanna, let's get into the V back of it all. How do you think privilege impacts conversations about ambition, especially women in business?

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Oh, it it has a huge impact, right? Because I think at the end of the day, when you start, when everybody's like, you know, bootstrap it.

• 48:24Keke Palmer?

  I'm like, bootstrap with what?

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Wait, what am I bootstrapping with? I'm just about get through the day. I just, ah, you know, it's like, I remember like those early days when people would say bootstrap. I was like, with what?

• 48:38Keke Palmer?

  You know, they love telling them that.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Friends and family round. I was like, my friends and family ain't got.

• 48:42Keke Palmer?

  Right. We ain't got the boot or the strap, boo.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  The boot, the strap, the round. I was like, what are you talking about?

• 48:48Keke Palmer?

  It ain't the one you.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  But you know what I mean? It's like, to me, those concepts were so foreign. And so this is where it really helps when you've got a very clear understanding of like what it needs and what it takes and what the optionality is. Because there are a myriad of different ways to start businesses. And that's why I like to look at everything not as a billion dollar unicorn. Because you have to be honest about what do I have the resources and the ability to create? And if you're trying to create a, a, you know, a business that is very capital intensive and requires something crazy, perhaps that isn't for you at this particular stage. And you'll have to start somewhere else. So it's like, you have to match those things up. But I think that in the culture, we listen to so much, we hear so much, we think that everybody needs to raise a lot of money.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  And honestly, that isn't the reality of how I see a lot of businesses.

• 49:38Keke Palmer?

  We're not, everybody not at that chapter. You know, I think that's the thing is I hate that about the comparison culture that we live in. Because it's stealing our process. We think we're comparing everything.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  To everyone else.

• 49:48Keke Palmer?

  To everyone else. And then we, and then we feel like something is, it even feels more crushing of us feeling like we're being stolen. Something's being stolen from us or we're being robbed for something because we feel like. We supposed to be on that timeline.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:59Keke Palmer?

  And it's like, I mean, there's, I, I think, you know, it's difficult, but there is some amount of faith that has to be in there when you're even in this kind of career. Like, because nothing is promised. I've always felt like I was free-falling in my career as entertainer. I got a job until I don't have a job. And so, you know, I think there's a mindset that has to be, like, if you want this job, this industry, if you want to be an entrepreneur, if you want to go through this thing, then you also gonna have to have faith. And it can't be contingent upon what you've seen somebody else do.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, or an unrealistic timeline, because my huge part of this is how long it actually takes. You know, there's an amazing quote out there that says, you know, people, people don't want to spend three years of their life creating a business, but, you know, they'll spend forty years working for somebody else. Like, it takes years. Like, it takes years and years. And I had a lot of things that I tried that really didn't work, and really didn't leave me in an ideal place. Um, but again, it's like, you, you really have to have those moments to get to the successful place. And so, I just, I think it's important for people to know that it just isn't what you think it is.

• 51:04Keke Palmer?

  You've done a lot of great work with Fifteen Percent Pledge.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 51:07Keke Palmer?

  You know, giving, pushing the initiative for real tellers to reserve fifteen percent of their shelf space for black-owned businesses. Is that the way that you feel? Because obviously, you can't, uh, you know, you can't make everybody an entrepreneur. You can't, you know, we, we can only do so much. But for you, is that your way of being able to kind of create this cyclical kind of thing? When you, when it comes to black creators and people that are owning businesses and supporting them? Like, is this your way?

• 51:32Speaker 01

  I think it's one of the ways. You know, I invest in a lot of female founders, specifically black female founders. And so, I think that the way to do it is to put your money where your mouth is. Because you can be driving around in really nice cars and have four houses and do all of this stuff. But if you can't talk about supporting founders without putting your money into founders. But the Fifteen Percent Pledge is another way that actually, when we talk about, like, grassroots level, like, shifting the conditions for black founders, right? So when you talk about, you can, like, start something, and you might be able to fund it. But then you need to put it somewhere. What this platform does is create that space and make that exist.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  We're talking about a fourteen billion dollar pipeline of opportunity for black owned businesses. And so that is something that I am so, so proud of. But it really is interesting to me when I look at like how the landscape shifted, right? When you used to go into Sephora, you know, maybe there were like two, three brands that were, you know, black owned. Now it's like, it's totally different. And that is because the pledge created those conditions. It's because consumers said, one second, we actually want more choice, like we want brands from different founders. But also entrepreneurs started to understand like there's more places for us to play. And I talk about this all the time, like black owned businesses aren't just for black people.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  So we need to make sure that they're given the platform so that they can really stand out and sit next to like other brands that are super well funded and have the same type of shelf space and therefore the same type of opportunity.

• 53:07Keke Palmer?

  A lot of partake cookies.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Love them, love them.

• 53:13Keke Palmer?

  What lets you know that this is a company you should invest in? What are some of the things that you look for?

• 53:20Speaker 01

  So for me, it's always, always about the founder. Because I've, I've just on a call actually with, I call them the spice boys, these, these entrepreneurs that I have um from England.

• 53:30Keke Palmer?

  Entrepreneurs.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, lost my word there, these entrepreneurs that I have from England. And you know, I looked at their business and I was like, this is cute. I actually believe in them more than I believe in this specific idea that they have. But I know that they're going to be successful at something. Um, I'm very founder focused. I'm somebody that like believes in people and how much ambition and how they uniquely look at an idea. Um, I'm obviously a product person, like if I see a big white space, like I'm like, that's something that I would use. Um, but I'm much, much more about, I would say.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Having a founder who I'm like, that is a person that I believe in. I believe that they have what it takes. And it's very, very rarely about just like the singularity of the idea and how they're thinking about distribution. It's much broader than that. Like, what is their way of thinking? How do they think about bringing something to market? What's the level of their ambition? And I'm also very good at spotting things that I wouldn't give time of day to, you know? And so I try to give a lot of honest feedback because I get so many people that come to me and say, hey, I've got this thing. And so I'm ruthlessly honest because I don't think that women get enough of the real type of feedback that's needed and you can waste time on an idea.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  And I don't think that's helpful either. So I try to just be very, very truthful about what's missing, what they could do. I try to connect people to other people that could maybe help progress something and that's how I try to be useful.

• 55:06Keke Palmer?

  What are your thoughts on AI? Are you into AI products? Do you feel like that's a good access point for technology? I mean, I personally think that everything can be just as bad as it can be good. So there's always that. But I'm curious how you think it's changing our industry.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  I think that we don't have a choice right now. I think that the the train has left the station. And I think what, um, I think what concerns me most, you know, I remember, what was it, like 20 years ago, when, you know, we were all trying to get women into coding? And because there were so few women in like, you know, e-comm and the digital space. And now I feel like the same thing is happening in in AI, right? It's like if you go to one of the big platforms and you say, hey, I'm Kiki and I'm thinking about getting on this, you know, opportunity. And how much should I be paid for it? It will tell you something very different than it tells John.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  And that is because of the lack of female intuition, investment, capacity for being involved in the highest places in AI. So that's the thing that I find really troubling at the moment. But we don't have a choice. If your business is not. You know, really taking the idea of how A I can support it really seriously, you will be left behind. So I think about it like with two hats, right? I've got my business hat on over here, where I'm like, we have to fully envelop it in the company. And then I have my sort of like mom and society hat on over here, where I'm like, it's the end of the end.

• 56:35Keke Palmer?

  Right, no, yeah, I think that's, yeah, it's everybody feels like that. It's like, what the hell do we do? We feel that way about everything today.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Well, I think the thing is, we do what we should always do, right? Which is like, don't be passengers, don't be passive. You like, you have to be in it and understand it to be able to change it. And so I'm really one of these people that never sits there and goes like, oh, what is happening to me? I'm like, what can I do about something? How can I take charge? And I think making sure that more women are at the driving seat of some of these things is going to be very helpful.

• 57:06Keke Palmer?

  I love that. I've been talking a lot about the tone shift in terms of like, things are going to be happening. But we, my tone about it, I can control that. I can control how I approach it. I can control if it's a horror, or if we go into drama, or maybe it's a little bit of a comedy. Like, I have to figure out how to make the tone one that is durable, that I can endure. This is your first book. Start with yourself. I mean, what made you say, yeah, I'm gonna write a book?

• 57:31Speaker 01

  I think it was other people, the the need and the thirst for knowledge. There's a lot of business books out there, but not a lot that are written by somebody like me with my background, with four kids. Um, and I really thought that I wanted to write a book that is about like self-leadership, right? Like, there's so much out there, to your point, that you can't control, right? There is the media and the culture and where we're all at in society at large. And and yet, I don't think that that should stop you. And I wanted to write a book that would be for very ambitious women who want.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  An incredible career and they wanna make a lot of money. And they want a family. And I wanted to create something for them. That they could take away and understand that there are all of these rules that are in. And why they're just not so. And what I want every woman to take away when they read this book is that. You know, if if you want. Money, it will require audacity. If you want like a big, big career. Then you are going to need like like, and I say this like.

• 58:44Keke Palmer?

  So exciting.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  But it's like, and it is exciting, but it's like, you know, it's like. If you want a big career, you're gonna have to realize that like that takes, it takes some giving. And if you want a family, then it's gonna require some timing. And it isn't perhaps what you've been told. And if you want power, Kiki. Power like nobody's coming to give it to you. You have to take it and make no mistake, my dear. We are desperate for more women in positions of power right now. And so the book is really about all of those things. And yes, there's like. I've tried to write all of the things that I know about. How you build a brand and how you can create a career of your dreams. But I really took it very, very seriously, like where we are in time right now. And taking some of the stuff that we're constantly told. And telling you why it's just not so.

• 59:28Keke Palmer?

  I find you deeply motivating and very courageous. Especially when we're coming out of a time in culture and society where the consumerism is based on giving you a fantasy.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  A fantasy.

• 59:40Keke Palmer?

  It's based on. Lies. And so to come out and say, hey. I do want you to win. And I'm doing my best to tell you the truth about how I've won. And take it or leave it. I really love that.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. It's a little hard medicine. You you you might throw the book once or twice. But I do think that you'll go back to the corner of your room and you'll pick it up and you'll be like, but that was useful.

• 1:00:05Keke Palmer?

  Did you bring me one?

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course I did.

• 1:00:07Keke Palmer?

  That girl, cuz if I don't have the book, what are we doing?

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  You've gotta have the book. You've gotta have the book.

• 1:00:12Keke Palmer?

  Okay, we're gonna end this with a game because I love playing a game. You've hired a ton of people and let's be honest. You probably fired a few cuz that's what happens sometimes.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  One or two.

• 1:00:21Keke Palmer?

  I'm gonna read you a series of employee profiles and you tell me, are they hired? Or are they fired? Are you ready?

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  I'm ready, babe.

• 1:00:29Keke Palmer?

  And of course, we'll discuss.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  It actually won't be very hard for me. Let's go.

• 1:00:34Keke Palmer?

  Okay, a Gen Z self-described perfectionist. Who triple checks everything. But moves slowly. Hired or fired?

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Fired.

• 1:00:42Keke Palmer?

  And it's just because they can't move slow, right?

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  You can't move slow.

• 1:00:45Keke Palmer?

  They gotta be decisive. You said that actually.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  I will tell you, when I first came to LA, I watched this lady move across my, you know, she took something off the printer and she walked across the office. And I was sitting there with my assistant and I was like, what is that lady doing? And he was like, she's just moseying across the office. And in London, you walk like that. Like you walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, to the desk, to the printer, back, da, da, da. And I couldn't understand the speed, you know?

• 1:01:10Keke Palmer?

  Oh my god.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  So to me, slow is never good. I'm like, go, go, go, go, go.

• 1:01:14Keke Palmer?

  It's time to move.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:01:16Keke Palmer?

  And Ivy leaves MBA with multiple typos on their resume.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  No, not even coming in the door, babe. You've got to have attention to detail. You know, did you, like, you know, Melody Hobson came on my, like, first of all.

• 1:01:28Keke Palmer?

  First of all.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  When Melody came on my podcast, Aspire, with Em Agreed, she, um, she was so amazing. And she spoke about how she has people, like, proofread her emails because it's, and, and here's the thing. Her point is that if you are that sloppy in that type of your interaction, like, how are you behaving in something that's more important? Like, the details matter. Those small things matter.

• 1:01:51Keke Palmer?

  That's the 1% extra. Okay, a hungry, recent grad with endless ideas but zero real work experience.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm taking him.

• 1:01:59Keke Palmer?

  Yes, okay.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  I'm taking him. If you're hungry, it's like, that's it. That's all I need.

• 1:02:05Keke Palmer?

  A junior level employee who is always reinventing but never meeting deadlines.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  That's just a conversation.

• 1:02:12Keke Palmer?

  Period. We giving them a chance.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  You need to let them know.

• 1:02:15Keke Palmer?

  A senior executive who is endlessly indecisive.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  No, indecision is not one of my things and flexibility is a must for me. So I need people to be, like, make decisions and move on.

• 1:02:28Keke Palmer?

  A high performer who's clearly burned out but refuses help.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  I'm just getting them the help.

• 1:02:35Keke Palmer?

  That's fabulous.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Well, that's what we do. You know, when you have great people, that's a game changer for any business and everybody goes through ups and downs, right? So it's like, if you have somebody who's like lashing out at their team, but they're excellent. It's like you get them the training that they need because they're clearly going through something. So you've got to meet people sometimes where they're at and you help them.

• 1:02:55Keke Palmer?

  I love that. Someone who takes credit when things go right and is silent when they don't.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Out the door. It's a really important.

• 1:03:02Keke Palmer?

  Out the door.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Out the door. It's a really important trait, not just to own up to things, but to learn from your mistakes. So if you're not owning them, you ain't learning. I can take any amount of mistakes. You can make a mistake every single day. If you come to me and you say, I did this, here's what I got from it and here's what I'm doing differently next time. That's fine.

• 1:03:24Keke Palmer?

  Someone who ignores their job description and takes on any task, big or small.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  I mean, that's my kind of person. I'm not gonna lie.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  I love hungry little monster. I love those people. Listen, you, again, you don't want to be picking up everything, but doing that little extra. Do I look at those people that are right on the edge, like they do their stuff and they do a little bit over here and they understand a little bit more about the rest of the organization? You know, in management speak, they call those people T-shaped leaders. They do their job really well and they know enough about all of the other verticals in the business. Like you mean something to an organization there.

• 1:04:00Keke Palmer?

  We're getting this in.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Home management school.

• 1:04:03Keke Palmer?

  I love the language. Okay, this is the last one.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:04:05Keke Palmer?

  Someone with an incredible resume who struggles to take feedback.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  It's training again. I'm working with you.

• 1:04:12Keke Palmer?

  I love the training that we have.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  I'm working with you. I'm, listen.

• 1:04:14Keke Palmer?

  It's an institution.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  I think that there's so much, like I am a very, I'm a very open person. And when I see that on the other side of me, openness, willingness, like an ability to learn, I can work with anything. It's when you're closed.

• 1:04:30Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  You know, when you're wrong and strong. I don't have time for that.

• 1:04:34Keke Palmer?

  Well, I'm so excited about this book. I cannot wait to get into it. Start with yourself. Congratulations and thanks for coming to the podcast.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Thank you, my darling. What a joy.

• 1:04:46Keke Palmer?

  Okay, that convo gave me life. Success isn't about waiting for permission or for someone to save you. It's about taking control of your dreams and chasing your goals unapologetically. Emma embodies that. She's not afraid to say she wants to win, to make money, and to build a legacy. But not only for her family, but for all the black women and entrepreneurs coming up behind her. Hope you guys enjoyed this one as much as I did. See you next time, because baby, this is Kiki Puma.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  Baby, this is, this is Kiki. Baby, this is Kiki Puma, yeah.