Chris Burkard’s Crusade Against The Mundane

A treat for any and all with a bent for adventure and creative expression, today's guest is one of my very favorite visionaries of images still and moving. Meet Chris Burkard. A true artist in many forms, Chris is a photographer, filmmaker, world explorer, accomplished endurance athlete (last year he set the record for fastest man to circumnavigate Iceland by bike), dirtbag surfer extraordinaire, author, creative director, father, and man of faith. But first and foremost, Chris is a storyteller --best known for his photojournalistic, humanizing approach to the farthest expanses of the Earth and capturing stories that inspire humans to consider our relationship with nature, while promoting the preservation of wild places everywhere. Chances are you follow Chris on Instagram — stacked with breathtaking landscapes and tales of adventure, his feed is a unique portal into other worlds that magnetizes 3.6 million people daily. Well established as a leading creative and man of global influence by the ripe age of 32 (now 34), Chris’ visionary perspective has earned him opportunities to work on global, prominent campaigns with Fortune 500 clients and brands like Apple, The North Face, Patagonia, Microsoft, Burton, Capitol Records, Quiksilver, and REI to name but a few. He’s spoken on the main TED stage, designed product lines, and published a growing collection of gorgeous books including, California Surf Project, At Glacier’s End, Boy Who Spoke To The Earth (children’s book), Distance Shores, and and High Tide: A Surf Odyssey. Chris' lates offering is Unnar -- a short documentary that tells the story of Chirs’ friend Ellii, an Icelandic photographer, surfer, and kayaker whose perspective changed after surviving a near death experience. Premiering at the Tribeca Film Festival, Unnar is now freely viewable on Chris’ YouTube page. Don't miss it. Today Chris shares his story. I’ve been a huge fan and admirer of Chris for ages. This conversation was long in the making — and does not disappoint. It’s a conversation about being present in the moment. Making art out of suffering. Taking big risks. And what's behind his love affair with Iceland. It’s also a glimpse into the creative mind of a true artist, laced with potent life lessons that will leave you thinking more broadly about your own path. But most importantly, it is about crusading against the mundane — and living a wanderlust lifestyle. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Chris is a very special human. We need more like him. I greatly appreciate his openness and perspective. And my hope is that this exchange will strengthen your reverence for the outdoors -- and inspire your own impulse for adventure. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  We're in this day and age where it's so easy to just strip some beautiful quote off the internet, or tell people that the mountains are calling and they must go, and really, that means nothing. Like, this is the place you make your own quotes. The books, the films, the social media, what have you. This is the place where you tell people what it felt like to be there, because, to be honest, you only do people a disservice by describing what they can see in the photo. You have eyes, this is a visual platform, you have to engage with it visually. I don't need to tell people that it's cold, and the person's surfing in cold water, and there's mountains, and guess what, we're in Norway. I need to tell you the visceral experience of what it felt like to be there, because that's all I can offer as a photographer, as a storyteller. What did it feel like for the snow to hit the back of my neck?

• 1:48Speaker 01

  What did it feel like to feel the crunch of it under my feet? What did it feel like to push the trigger of the camera? What did it feel like to document this moment and why? Those are the questions I'm seeking. Again, whether it's taking a picture, whether it's making a film, or speaking, or riding a bike, like, I want to share those things, because that's, I think, what people will connect to. That's Chris Burkard, and this is episode 554 of the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:23Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:32Rich Roll?

  Did I mention that today's guest is the great Chris Burkard? Last week, we dove into the life of Michael Muller, Hollywood's top celebrity photographer, who also happens to be an incredible adventurer, as well as the world's greatest when it comes to capturing, arresting iconic images of sharks, an animal he is devoted to preserving as an ardent environmentalist. And this week, in sort of a diptych fashion, we continue this exploration into the intersection of photography, adventure, and environmentalism with another amazing, beautiful soul and visionary, also a legend of images still and moving, the great Chris Burkard.

• 3:16Rich Roll?

  Akin to Michael in certain respects, Chris excels at many things. He's a photographer, he's an artist, he's an accomplished explorer, a filmmaker, an author, a creative director, also quite an amazing, accomplished endurance athlete. Last year, he became the fastest to circumnavigate Iceland by bike. He's a dirtbag surfer extraordinaire, a father, a man of faith, all of which is to say, he is first and foremost a storyteller, best known for his photojournalistic, humanizing approach to the farthest expanses of the earth, and then capturing stories that inspire humans to consider our relationship with nature while promoting the preservation of wild places everywhere.

• 4:00Rich Roll?

  I would venture to say that there's a good chance you follow Chris on Instagram already. His feed is stacked with outdoor, travel, adventure, surf, and lifestyle subjects that are really stunning and portals into other worlds, really, that have magnetized over three and a half million followers and counting. Well-established as a leading creative and man of global influence by the ripe age of 32, Chris's visionary perspective has earned him opportunities to work on global prominent campaigns with Fortune 500 companies and clients, brands like Apple, The North Face, Patagonia, Microsoft, Burton, Capitol Records, Quiksilver, REI, to name a few or several. The list is very long and goes on and on and on. He's spoken on the TED stage, he's

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  designed product lines, and published a growing collection of really gorgeous books, including California Surf Project, At Glacier's End, Boy Who Spoke to the Earth, which is a children's book, Distance Shores, and High Tide Surf Odyssey. In addition, he has a beautiful new short documentary called Unar that premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival, which tells the story of Chris's friend Ellie, an Icelandic photographer, surfer, and kayaker, whose perspective changed after surviving a near-death experience. The film is now freely available to review on Chris's YouTube page. It's linked up in the show notes. You do not want to miss it. I've been a huge fan and admirer of Chris for ages. This conversation was long in the

• 5:29Rich Roll?

  making, and it does not disappoint. It's about being present in the moment. It's about making art out of suffering. And it's about taking big risks. It's also a glimpse into the creative mind of a true artist, laced with potent life lessons that I think are going to leave you thinking more broadly about your own path. But most importantly, this is about crusading against the mundane, and what it means to live a wanderlust lifestyle. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Enter Chris Burkard.

• 6:09Rich Roll?

  So, part of my grand vision for 2020, which is laughable now, is this plan I had to take the podcast on the road and do this multi-city tour. No way. And part of that vision was doing a live event with you and me onstage at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco. This is not happening in 2020. So, here we are today instead. This is a long time coming, but- If there's any kind of comfort in doing this one-on-one as opposed to onstage, we actually have an audience here today.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 6:41Rich Roll?

  I've never had an audience for a podcast.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 6:44Rich Roll?

  I've interviewed lots of amazing people, but you definitely pulled a crowd today. So we actually have people here to witness this happenings, which I'm a little nervous.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  My wife is here to make sure I don't say anything stupid, which is excellent. So yeah.

• 6:56Rich Roll?

  We're not live streaming.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:58Rich Roll?

  You can edit it out if you want. But look, man, I'm really delighted to meet you. I've been a fan for a long time, have so much respect for your work, not just your work, but like how you live your life, how you comport yourself. I'm excited to unpack all of it with you today, man. And I've also said this before with people who have, you know, a social media presence, there is that sense that you feel like you know somebody. I definitely have that with you, but it's different. I do feel like a level of connectedness to you that I don't have with other people, even though we've never met. And I think that speaks to what I think is your greatest talent, which is that you're a storyteller.

• 7:41Rich Roll?

  You're always telling stories and you do it in a way that that is really brings people into your experiences and makes them feel like they're right alongside with you.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  That means a lot. I mean, that's, that's really the goal. I mean, if there's a way to compromise this entire life story into one sentence, it's like, I really want to tell meaningful stories. And it's a funny thing not to dive straight in, but that started with just my immediate family, my mom, my dad, right? And then, and then evolved now to millions of people. But the reality is like the, I think the, the effort and the intimacy is the same. Like I oftentimes, you know, can be at fault for wanting to share too much because I, because I just really enjoy bringing people into what that experience is like and being honest and real as much as you can in this day and age.

• 8:30Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a tension there because everything that you're about is about being present in the moment and, and really immersing yourself in the environments that you're in. But to share that is to take you out of that experience, right? So how do you like wrestle with that aspect of what you do?

• 8:49Speaker 01

  That's so hard. There's boundaries that I think life creates.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  In just in general with how we, how much we can share, how much it's, it's available to people, you know, and then you have this whole, you know, kind of, I think, issue nowadays of like the relatability and people understanding you and everything's got to be so like, you know, synthesized down to like very straightforward terms and how you say it because you, you don't want to, you know, offend anybody nowadays, but there's a rawness and a realness to, I think, bring people out on the road and, and, um, and bringing people with me into those experiences. And, and I think if anything, I've, I've really relied upon my wife as a guiding source of, of that. And, and also I think just understanding that, you know, and this is a funny thing because

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I, to be honest, I kind of hate talking about social media in many ways. I've always seen it, but I also love it. Right? So I've always seen it as all it is, is a glorified texting platform. And you have this beautiful opportunity to get to know the people that you're communicating with. You know, it's not this thing where you're just opening the door to someone's house, blurting out a message that before they have the chance to come to the door, you just close it. Right? Like there's this reciprocation. And so I feel more than maybe most really tuned into like the needs, the questions, the ideas, what they want to see. And then a lot of times that can in many ways direct, um, almost like the, the projects, the stories, the things I want to tell. I, I, I can adhere to the needs of, of young

• 10:22Speaker 01

  parents because I'm a young parent and it's a scary thing and it terrifies me every day. And then making films or books or whatever that can address these things or addressing climate or environmental issues. But through my lens, I guess, kind of to get back to the core of that question, I feel like learning to listen to what the needs of this audience is because that's really who you're serving. Right? Like as a person who's putting work into the world, you're, you're trying to serve a Broad group of people and obviously you can't do it perfectly, but you're trying to kind of tune into those who really understand you.

• 10:55Rich Roll?

  But it still requires a strong sense of self and you know, an antenna that's finely tuned to who you are so that you're maintaining that level of authenticity because if you're canvassing the input from this massive audience of millions of people, you could become distracted trying to please them or fulfill whatever their need or desire is as opposed to following your own muse. And that's what got you to this place.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's a scary thing because I think we evolve as people and our interests evolve and sometimes I had this real fear early in my career, I remember, it seems so untrivial now, but like I was, you know, early twenties and I was working on staff for surf magazines, that was all I knew, all I understood was surfing because that was my bread and butter growing up. And I remember kind of detaching myself from that world, that career path a bit and being really concerned that like, oh my gosh, if I stop, you know, shooting for the magazines and making surf films and start kind of pursuing some of my other passions, which was more pure landscape or I guess storytelling on a deeper level, addressing, you know, environmental

• 12:04Speaker 01

  issues and all these things, I'm like, are these, is this audience or people that engage with me or clients or buy my prints or whatever, are they going to like detach or not care? And I, I was so fearful and I kind of realized like at a certain point, I'm like, what, what would I be doing? I would be doing something untruthful, I'd be pursuing a path that was just unrealistic and dishonest and I, I kind of had to take that leap and yeah, it resulted in, in a big change in my career path and ultimately I'm so much happier because what I ended up pursuing was so in line with what I cared about and what I loved and that's been a constant theme, taking that leap and, and this is the funniest thing because we, we address risk in so many different ways.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  And one of the things I've realized is that what has become risky to me, or what is risky to one individual, it's all perspective, right? It's all how much time you've put into that. And at a certain point, the idea of photography, or sharing stories, or kind of opening up your life, that becomes commonplace and not as scary. And then all of a sudden, as a creative person, you know, we love to use this terminology of like, get outside your comfort zone. But what does that actually mean? When you've kind of gotten to a place where that's second nature? So you have to pursue that next level. Like, what is that? Is that, is that public speaking? Is that standing up in front of the Icelandic government and speaking on behalf of their river systems as an outsider? Most terrifying experience of my entire life.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  There are kind of things I've tried to pursue to realize that in order to achieve that growth that I want, in order to be that example to my kids, and I have to pursue those places of discomfort. And even now in 2020, it's like, you can find discomfort in anywhere you go. Even wearing a mask, you know, can be uncomfortable or politicized or whatever, or speaking up for the things that you believe in. And, and I just feel like that's the type of person that I aim to be, and that's the type of person I, I hope to inspire others to be willing to explore.

• 14:04Rich Roll?

  Right, like riding your bike around Iceland, which we're gonna talk about, you know? It is interesting how you acclimate to a certain level of discomfort until it's comfortable. Because, you know, when you look back over the course of your career, and we're gonna get into that, you know, it's a ballsy thing to kind of shirk a more traditional path and say, I'm gonna become a surf photographer. But then you achieve a certain level of, of acumen and success with that. To the outsider looking in, that looks like a super adventurous career. But then it becomes normalized to the extent where it becomes easy and you're not pushing yourself anymore.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  You're absolutely right. And this was actually the theme of my, my TED Talk, when I was able to be given the incredible, terrifying coming of age experience of speaking on the TED Global stage.

• 14:53Rich Roll?

  You rocked it, though.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  It was, it was honestly-

• 14:55Rich Roll?

  You looked very comfortable up there.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it was next level. I mean, the, the amount of stress that I endured prior to that. I revised my talk 17 times. I went through so many iterations. I remember I would like- Be in the shower, repeating it to myself on the treadmill. I like, remember taking advice from like Beyonce, like if you can't sing your song while running on the treadmill, you shouldn't do it. Like just stupid things that, that happened and the stories go on. But I tried to get to a place where it was so second nature that I felt like I could deliver it with the utmost energy and, and realness that I could bring to it. But point being was that that talk was really addressing this idea of having a dream job, kind of amidst

• 15:41Speaker 01

  all odds. And then realizing, once in that dream job, that this wasn't what it was cracked up to be. Like that I was on these remote beautiful beaches that I had seen in the pages of magazines, dreaming as a kid. And then I get there and I'm really just selling this false sense of adventure. There's a high-rise hotel and great wifi and amazing food. And not that those are bad things, but as somebody who thought, as a young kid who never traveled anywhere and never owned a passport, never went outside the US, that I was going to find this sense of adventure. And I wasn't finding it. I realized that there was kind of this, as I coined it, sort of this crusade against the mundane. And the point being, and I think why it became relevant to other, you know, sort of Fortune

• 16:25Speaker 01

  500s that I spoke for and carried on that talk, was that any career can do that. Any, any career path. And so to find what it is that inspires you and motivates you, even if it's kind of pursuing something different, very different at the times. For me, it took me from the beaches of Australia to like the remote, you know, shores of Iceland. That, that's really what it was. And I was, it was a terrifying time in my life. And the decisions still kind of, I look back on thinking, how in the world did I decide to do that? You know?

• 16:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The line that really stuck out for me in the whole TED Talk, I know it's not your line, but I think it's so true and poetic, is pain is a shortcut to mindfulness.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Right. Brock Bastian, I believe that was his, an incredible psychologist who studied pain. It might even have been somebody else, but he was a big component of somebody that I I looked into and it's funny how these, you know, I'm sure you've had this where you've had these kind of keynote presentation things where it leads you down this path and you learn something about something and you're like, oh my gosh, like through this process, I learned so much about me and why I did what I did. And this is something I feel like you can relate to extremely, but this idea that, that pain is, is a shortcut to mindfulness. What does that mean when you unpack it? Like the more sort of painful experiences we endure, and this doesn't mean like I stubbed my toe or I'm hurting myself, but, but sorrow,

• 17:49Speaker 01

  sadness, even times where you're really just giving a hundred and fifty percent of what you have to offer and, and it's, it's, it's can be challenging. You remember those things more. That was his whole point was that these stick with you, that the memory is, is cut deeper. And he even did incredible studies where had groups, people that would like, that had endured something challenging together and then groups, people that didn't and had put like scented water in front of them and they could pick up the scent more. Why? Because their senses were more attuned. So you envision you're in, you know, I don't, I can only imagine Rich, like, you know, mile hundred of, you know, the Ultraman or something like that, riding the bike and everything's just kind of getting really

• 18:32Speaker 01

  visceral. Like the smell, the road, that your vision, everything sharpens. It's like this incredible acuteness that becomes really honed in. And I think this is why we kind of both enjoy that endurance aspect because the, the longer you endure, the more you feel. And so that was a really unique thing to kind of, I think, come to the realization that these cold environments, these harsh environments, these freezing environments that seem so inhospitable were actually providing me and anybody that goes there with a more incredibly rich experience.

• 19:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. There's something about having to earn it to

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:10Rich Roll?

  That gives it greater meaning and resonance in your life. And, you know, when I think of you as a storyteller, I think of somebody who, who, who makes art out of man's relationship with suffering and these inhospitable environments. And in the context of surfing, we think of surfing and it's, it's sort of inextricably linked with tropical environments.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  But there's waves all over the world.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 19:33Rich Roll?

  And you kind of arrive at this place of let's explore the waves that nobody's looking at. Let's go to these places where there's incredible surf. Where nobody's ever photographed these places before.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  I think a part of that journey was to try and find myself and who I was and what I was looking for. I think that was really the deeper, more untold perspective of that was like, and maybe in some ways I was running from something or I was looking to punish myself. But I think there's something about the fact that you're hoping to go to these far ends of the earth and, and learn something about who you are and about your process. That's really powerful as a young person, man, woman, whatever, just to, just to kind of see what's out there. And I, and I, what I found in those places was, I think a true sense of what I was willing to commit myself to. And that felt really empowering as a, as a young kid.

• 20:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 20:24Rich Roll?

  Well, I want to trace this back to its origins, but, but why don't we start first with Iceland? I mean, what is this love affair that you have with Iceland? It's unbelievable.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Have you been?

• 20:32Rich Roll?

  No, I've never been.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, you should first of all go. And if you do, please reach out to me because I would be so stoked.

• 20:39Rich Roll?

  Don't think I'm gonna go to Iceland without calling you first.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:41Rich Roll?

  And making sure I'm all hooked up.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  You have to. I mean, the, the first thing you need to do is, is go there and run the Lagavatar Trail. I believe that's how you say it.

• 20:50Rich Roll?

  Is that the 50 miler that you just did?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a really popular, um, they do an ultra marathon that goes from Landmark Laguerre to Thor's Mark. And it's like basically the two of the most beautiful places in the entire country. It's the most gorgeous trail. It's one of like, you know, National Geographic's top 50 hikes. And I sadly, after 43 trips, had never done it. And oddly enough, at the end of this incredibly amazing bike trip, I was like, there's a great weather window. This would be a smart idea to maybe go and, uh, and do it, like totally unprepared, totally untrained.

• 21:24Rich Roll?

  I just rode my bike all the way across the middle of Iceland, but I think I need to go run 50 miles before I leave.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And let's be, let's be honest, it was more of like, it started as a jog and then turned into like a painful walk. But so beautiful and so immersive and you're walking through steam vents and you're moving across snow. And, and then you're moving in between two major glaciers, one of the most active or the most recently active eruptions, Aefjölljökl. You move between where that erupted and this beautiful, like just monochromatic almost landscape where there's, there's glacier and then there's lava flowing out. It was surreal, so beautiful. And so, yes, anyways, if you go, let me know. There's so many people I'd love to connect you to and whatnot.

• 22:11Rich Roll?

  But what is it about Iceland that stays with you?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  So a part of me, I've actually thought about this a lot. I kind of thought about this before the show too. And it's been asked quite a bit of me. And sometimes I think maybe it's just so different than what I grew up with. You know, the kind of now desert of California. And I live in central California, Pismo Beach. It's where I was born. It's where I was raised. It's a cool Mediterranean climate, but we don't have seasons. You know what I mean? Like, it rains, kind of. It gets a little chilly, but we don't have these real seasons. And we definitely don't have the geothermal activity. And I think a big part of it was that I went there during this. It was 2006 when I went there, you know, kind of right before its first big tourism boom.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  And my experience was so influential in my life and my career and just so unique to me that I felt something different than I'd ever experienced anywhere else. And it kind of spurred, you know, the next trip. And I just kept trying to find jobs to go there. You know, my first trip there to Iceland was for Men's Journal. I was documenting Timmy Turner. He's a surfer that had a staph infection in his brain from surfing in warm water. Sorry, this is a long story made short. And I went there to document him surfing in cold water, which was what his doctor approved. So it was kind of this, this place and person story about, about this athlete. And it was a really cool experience. And we went all over the country.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  And I remember just coming home and kind of trying to process all that, realizing like, I had just been somewhere truly unique, truly remote. Like, we moved our way through giant icebergs on the beach, like a maze to get to the ocean. I just, that amount of kind of sacrifice and felt really, really stuck with me. Like, it, like a, I don't know, almost like a rash or something like that. And I couldn't get the itch away. And I just started to look for excuses to go back. And then... There was also kind of a business element to it as well, where when you really dial a place in, you become sort of, I guess, in some ways, a go-to person. So, um, production teams and whatnot were coming to me, asking me like, "Okay, well, how could we do this?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  And do you know this person?" And I, I sort of, um, tried to, I guess, provide as many opportunities to create work there. And that, that became kind of a love affair with the place. And ultimately, after like, trip number six, seven, eight, nine, 10, whatever it became, well, the people are what are bringing me back. Friendships, this landscape, there were environmental issues. And to fully steal a quote directly from Yvonne Channard, you know, "You can only spend so much time in these wild places before you feel a sense of responsibility to want to protect them." And that ultimately became the mission. It was like, get there at all costs possible, because there is work to do. And these beautiful, gorgeous river systems that I had documented and experienced and moved through were in

• 25:09Speaker 01

  real threat of danger from aluminum smelters and dams being built. And I wanted to lend my voice to that. And so that has really, over the last seven years, became the mission. And as my wife knows, I'm not much for vacations. So, every trip there was like, how can I weasel my way into work or do a job, but then find time to work on my own project?

• 25:32Rich Roll?

  Including this new film, right? Unar? How do you say it?

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, Unar. Yeah. Yeah. So, a new film that's, um, that's touring in festivals right now. Thank you so much.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, premiered at Tribeca, right?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, premiered at Tribeca, went to Mountain Film, it did the rounds. It was a really hard year, because I was so excited to bring the cast and the crew and my Icelandic friends to New York to like, experience this and to really have this coming-of-age story. And ultimately, you know, to give kind of people the preface, this film is actually going to be premiering online on the 22nd of September. And, um, it'll be out there kind of for the masses after that. But the, the goal was to really, in the evolution of storytelling, in my own experience, you know, sometimes, I guess, you could say it's easier to tell stories about things. That you're going through, through someone else's lens.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  So as much as I, I care and I love Ellie and his experience, I know that I've got my own fears of parenting and risk and, and the reward of what it's like to raise kids in a wild environment. And through his, his honest portrayal of his basically near death experience, I'm able to share with the world what I think is, is potentially a way, maybe the right way to raise kids. And I know that's something that you've dealt with as well. And it's just been a, yeah.

• 26:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's, it's beautiful and compelling. And essentially it's a narrative of this father, daughter relationship and his desire and struggle with how to raise his daughter in a more naturalistic environment in the modern world. Like even though they're in Iceland, there's still the city. He makes this choice to live outside of that. He has this near death experience and he's trying to impart, you know, in his daughter, this connection with the natural environment that is so meaningful to him and keep her like pure in that regard. It's almost like, um, you know, that movie and that TV series Hannah?

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:31Rich Roll?

  It's sort of like Hannah, but in a, in a, in a more.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. A less aggressive way.

• 27:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Without all the terrorism and all the other stuff, right?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  But in many ways, I think the cool thing is like, he has sort of this extreme example. And Ellie's a dear friend, like somebody who really, like my experience of that place of Iceland. And anywhere I've been has always gone to the nth degree when you finally meet a local or people that can like show you the way. And my connection to locals and all these environments that go to is so important. Like that has opened up the place to me in a way that just never could have before. And him being willing to share that story was so meaningful, but also scary. Like as, as a storyteller, one of the biggest fears you have is like working with your friends. You hear this all the time, like don't work with your friends, you know? And, and when I kind of got this story from him and he told me.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  I was shocked. I was like, wait, you you kayak down a river, you got caught behind a waterfall for forty minutes, we're going hypothermic, and you literally tried to penetrate through the waterfall over and over and blacked out, and they just found you down the river? And one of the craziest experiences, it's so hard talking about a film, people haven't seen it, because you're kind of like giving it away, but you're also like giving people a thing. But when we were filming this, this project, and it's a short film, it's only seventeen minutes, right? When we were filming this project, we got to Akkordari in the north of Iceland, we went to the waterfall. I can't express how significant it is to witness

• 29:08Speaker 01

  healing happen, right? I mean, we're there, he hadn't been there in twelve years. Like, he hadn't been there since it happened. And we're walking over, and he's like, yeah, he's like, that's where they found me. And like, this is where the waterfall is, and we're kind of walking through this. And we get out of our car, and we're packing up our stuff, and there's a farmer that drives by, and Ellie waves to him, you know, like you do in Icelandic. And all of a sudden, the farmer and him are talking in Icelandic, and I see them kind of like getting closer and closer and talking more. And the farmer's, basically Ellie told me, he's like, yeah, this guy's lived on this road his whole life, and he fully remembers that experience. And I can't remember if he was even involved in like, the one who called, sort of the ambulance in Akkordari or something like

• 29:48Speaker 01

  that. But I was just, it was just so powerful and so significant. And to, to use storytelling as a tool, to allow people, people you love, people you care about, to relive experiences and deal with experiences and find, in some ways, that closure is so powerful. Makes me emotional just thinking about it.

• 30:11Rich Roll?

  Well, what's fascinating is that, is that you, you provided that from a Western perspective. Like, the footnote to the story is that, you know, his friends find him a half an hour later, or whatever, and they get him out of there, and they never speak of it again. And implied is that he never spoke about it again, and you just move on in this like, Icelandic, Nordic Viking, Stoic, you know, way of how you conduct yourself as a man. But clearly, he's carrying that with him. And it's only someone like yourself who comes in, who was raised, you know, in a different way with how we process our emotions, that could provide him a comfortable way to, you know, move to the other side of that.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  And it's a funny thing, because I maybe I have the tendency of being too emotional and just being like, dude, like, how have you?

• 31:00Rich Roll?

  Wait, what?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  How have you not dealt with this? I'm like, I'm crying now, like, and it was just such a unique thing. But that's, that's what friendship is about. Like, that's why I think we, we dive into these stories to, to kind of meet each other halfway and to find, find areas to kind of, I think, work on and improve. It was, it was a wild experience and I love that.

• 31:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool.

• 31:31Rich Roll?

  Well, I want to talk about the bike stuff, but let's go back to the, let's go back to the beginning.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Jumping on all these subjects.

• 31:36Rich Roll?

  No, it's cool. Raised by a single mom who had you when you were, when she was 17.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  What can I say about that? I, it's such a weird thing to kind of, in some ways, put out there because it's such a personal part of who I am and, and I've, I've, you know, my mom's,

• 32:00Speaker 01

  you know, willingness to share, kind of been, been able to, I think, you know, in some ways, open up about that a bit. But in reality, I witnessed, you know, the struggle, the harsh realities of what it's like to, to grow up in a single parent home. And my, my dad passed away before I was born, so there was never this abandonment scenario. But I realized very clearly and very quickly just how much effort was put into like, trying to raise a kid. And I think that. It's changed my views on kind of everything as I've come of age. In the beginning, you don't really understand it, but as you become those ages of 12, 15, and you know, 18, you you start to recognize like, oh, well, you know, we didn't travel

• 32:43Speaker 01

  because that wasn't on the table and I can't go to college because there wasn't that opportunity there. And the sacrifices that were made were so significant at the time that I just, I couldn't fully fathom it. And I was more worried about like, when we were gonna get, you know, Burger King as a kid or something like that, not that like, my mom was like, cleaning houses and managing a gym. And not only did I witness this, you know, awesome example of somebody who was totally sacrificing everything, but also she had like, good jobs, like she was the manager of a gym and she was just this, this awesome kind of badass lady. And so in many ways, that example for me has just given me sort of the, the zero excuse

• 33:23Speaker 01

  policy of like, I have always dealt in some capacity with a personality trait that just wants to prove that I'm worth it. Because I know she made incredible sacrifices. I mean, not going to senior prom because you're, you have a one-year-old is pretty real. And I, I think that's always been a part of my story is like, and not really the one that I want to always start with, but it's like, it's a part of who I am is like, I've, I've worked so hard and maybe in some ways, I've, I've gone headstrong into suffering because I've felt the need to prove to her and maybe to others that I was worth it and that this, this sacrifice is worth it. So yeah, it's something I'm dealing with still.

• 34:04Rich Roll?

  I mean, I suspect that it gave you a, a strong sense of, of, you know, resilience and this idea that, you know, nothing, you can't take anything for granted. And if you want to make your way in the world, you're gonna have to work for it because everything is earned in that way.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you nailed it. And even just the idea that like, life in general, like I, there was many opportunities for her to not have a kid and she decided to do that. I mean, I cannot imagine. You're 16 years old, you're pregnant, your boyfriend, my dad dies in a car accident. And all of a sudden, you're like, I'm gonna keep this baby. And like, that's a gnarly decision to make. And I just felt.

• 34:46Rich Roll?

  But also, a lot for a young child to bear, right? That's an overwhelming, you know.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:53Rich Roll?

  Idea to carry around with you.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  It's hard to even process. Like, when I think about her now, I'm like, I can't, I don't, I can't even imagine the strength it took to do that. So when I, when I've gone on trips and I've been in those harsh places, I, that is a, a fuel source, so to say, that I've tried to rely on at times, thinking of like, what she went through and what I'm willing to go through for what I care about.

• 35:15Rich Roll?

  So when you're in elementary school and junior high, do you feel a sense of separateness from the other kids because of this?

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I was, you know, I was lucky to have an awesome stepdad step into my life around like 12, 13. And so that was really awesome, but there was still a sense of detachment of like, who I was. And, you know, just like, it's a weird thing, not knowing where some of your character traits come from, um, not understanding that. And then I think, becoming a dad, that's where it became really hard. And I can.

• 35:47Rich Roll?

  Because why?

• 35:48Speaker 01

  You know, to be totally transparent, because you don't know how to treat young kids. You don't know what that felt like. You never had the dad pat you on the back or whatever, like, or to throw a ball around or whatever cliche TV dads do. I don't know, that's all I knew. So it was like, I had my mom and she was everything all at once. And, and to not fully know, like, when my kids were in these early ages, um, I definitely, I ran in some ways from some of my problems or my issues through traveling and through dealing with that. And I think it was only, you know, in the last, like, you know, couple of years that I've really tried to hone in on, like, how I can be the father that I want to be.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  And I'm not saying that I, like, shirked off responsibility, but I would say that in many ways, I just didn't have the example of what it should feel like or what it should be like. And not to say that there is some perfect example, because we live in a crazy world and everybody's given different circumstances. But for me, that's always been the hardest thing, is my relationship with work. You know, as, at times, somebody who's been a self-professed workaholic, like. It can be the best thing in the world, or it can be a really hard thing because you can bury your head into it and just make it sort of, I don't know, you can make it be something that like really covers up a lot of other ugly parts of your life.

• 37:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, when somebody like yourself, who, you know, your disposition is adventure and wanderlust is part of who you are and makes you who you are and gives you that sustenance, like it's a necessary thing. You have to go out into the wild, right? Or you can't be your best self, but you can also weaponize that and hide behind it.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:32Rich Roll?

  And then it becomes more like a pathology. I had, um,

• 37:35Speaker 01

  That's perfectly said.

• 37:36Rich Roll?

  Do you know, uh, Michael Muller?

• 37:38Speaker 01

  I know of his work, really, I mean, the work he's done with sharks and everything.

• 37:42Rich Roll?

  It's incredible, right?

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:44Rich Roll?

  So he was here yesterday.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  No way.

• 37:45Rich Roll?

  We talked about the exact same thing, you know, and I mean, he's got two daughters and, you know, reckoning with, with that and how to be a present and healthy dad with the need for adventure and how do those things coexist in a healthy way?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  And I love that we're kind of coming full circle here because the point being is like my way of dealing with it is through storytelling and that's kind of why I made this film, to hope that some parents out there, dads, moms, whatever, can understand that like there are answers and there are people struggling and this is one way to look at it. And yeah, I had certain sort of, not traumatic, but experiences in my life that, that, that gave me perspective and I'm just sort of dealing with that now. And it's kind of why I wrote a children's book. I wanted to address certain things for my kids that I knew that my, my current books or films couldn't do, you know, and, and I'm just looking for ways to, to communicate to them what's important, right?

• 38:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. All right. So when does the camera enter the picture?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Right around 18 years old. Um, I was actually a full just greasehead in high school. Like I worked on cars. I was, all I cared about was automobiles. Um, and that was like my passion was like custom cars, custom cars. That's it. I, um, and then I, I started surfing a lot with friends, um, through the later years of high school and in that became like kind of ditching class to go to the beach. And, and I think this is a funny scenario to, to sort of, um, but it was a little more gang mentality. It was like, You know, my mom was finally taken care of by my stepdad. And so me as sort of the caretaker or self-professed, self-proclaimed caretaker could kind of like

• 39:26Rich Roll?

  Live your life now.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Step out of the picture and I got into some trouble in high school a little bit and it just led to a lot of sort of undue stress and pain, whatever. But a part of that maybe was like, you know, for me, going surfing and going with friends up the coast and exploring Big Sur and the northern reaches of Sloane County, it was like, I was finding my own and in some way fitting in with this group. And I think part of that process was like documentarian. That was me like, I could come and document this and that and this party and these things. And ultimately, photography, it sort of dawned on me that this like tool could be maybe more than just a fun experience with friends, but maybe this could like,

• 40:09Speaker 01

  get me out of this small town. Maybe this could be my passport to travel. Maybe this could be a lot of things and I, I sort of digested that a little bit more, a bit more. And I was going to junior college, nineteen years old, working some terrible job at a magazine store in Pismo Beach. And I told myself, I'm like, I'm gonna give this five years. If I'm face down in the dirt somewhere, so be it. If I'm thriving, amazing. But I owe it to myself to see if photography can be a career path. And that's exactly what I did. And yes, I had delusions of grandeur that this was gonna be this amazing tool for wanderlust, but I also was very much like egocentric in the fact that I just wanted to earn money as a photographer. And so it was kind of like pride,

• 40:52Speaker 01

  but maybe, maybe the ego was even stripped from it because I was like, I would shoot anything. I would do anything. I would, you know, I remember the very next day after I quit my job at Esquire News in Pismo Beach. It feels like yesterday, I was back down at Pismo Beach, back down at the pier where I kind of spent most of my time on the pier, looking out, seeing people surfing. And I was literally taking photos of them and then running up to them on the beach. And then being like, hey, like totally out of breath, I'll sell you this photo of you surfing for like twenty bucks on a CD. And that was like, that was how I put gas in my car. And, uh, and it was like, you know, again, senior picture, anything I could do, I just, I tried to kind of understand that like,

• 41:34Speaker 01

  If I could prove anything to my parents, who at the time were like, you need to go to college, you need to do this. And I was like, I don't really want to go to junior college and learn something. I'm not going to apply. I felt like I needed to prove to them. So from the beginning, it's always been proving myself. And I hate to say that because it sounds like we're in sort of like a therapy session, which is fine, but that's kind of sometimes what this podcast is a little bit. But yeah, it was it was kind of built around that. Like it was it was about proving that I was.

• 42:03Rich Roll?

  Proving yourself, but also wouldn't it be in part this this need or this desire to honor like your mom, like who sacrificed so much? I'm sure she's thinking like, this guy's got to go to college after everything that I did. And for you to pivot and go the other direction, there's an intensity to that. Like, you better make this work. Or what was all of that for?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  And I can remember these vivid conversations around the dinner table, like yelling matches, where it was like, you, you know, you're the first person in our family who can like go to college because you had good grades and you had scholarships. And I was like, I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm not going to school. And like, I'm going to quit school. And that was like, I mean, to be honest, that was like, that was like, the hardest thing I could ever tell somebody that I respected and loved so much was was that, and this was a huge point of contention. And there were these moments, I mean, as anybody experiences at 18, like, there were these moments of very real, like, raw emotion that were kind of going back and forth. And it kind of marked a period in my life where I sort of, I guess, didn't dissent

• 43:07Speaker 01

  from the family, but I moved into my car and was basically living in the back of my Toyota Tacoma and, you know, kind of like scraping pennies from the floor of my vehicle and like spending like a lot of time at my girlfriend's house, who's my now wife. So I don't feel too bad about all the money I borrowed from her and her parents, too, for gas and other things. But it was, I sort of dissented because I, I felt like I couldn't show. My face around them until I had something worth showing a little bit. So, but it was weird. I mean, there's, there's an evolution that takes place and I know we can touch on this later, but I think everybody in some capacity, nobody at 19 starts their career being like, I'm gonna be, you know, an environmentalist, I'm gonna be a philanthropist,

• 43:52Speaker 01

  and I'm gonna be all these amazing, awesome things to the world. Like, for me, it was like, I wanna collect stamps for my passport and I wanna get a paycheck and that's all I care about. Creativity was awesome, but if that, that wasn't the focus and, and I think offering up deep, meaningful work to other people was kinda like, yeah, maybe. But it was all about just like proving that this was a career that was worth doing as opposed to going to school.

• 44:17Rich Roll?

  The origin is very cinematic and kind of hilarious. Like, I'm trying to picture you in this magazine shop surrounded by the covers of magazines, right? Like, it's just like, this is messaging you like the whole time.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  It was kind of a joke, to be honest. I'm sitting there behind the counter, I'm eating Red Vines, and then there was like, um, those really, really good coconut Mexican popsicles, like, in the, in the corner and I'd be like consuming those most of the day. Over to my left, right here, was all like the duty magazines, right? And then in front of that was like all the adventure and travel magazines. So I would sit there all day and look at the pages of National Geographic and Afar and Outside and kind of daydream about like, looking at these places. And in some way, I, I honestly took that job because I thought two things. First of all, being close to the beach would be an advantage for what I wanted to do in my career. And secondly, because I could always check the surf and this and that, um, and I could like,

• 45:11Speaker 01

  shoot before, because I was, at the time, I was already kind of invested and involved in trying to shoot surfing, but all of a sudden, I was also like, well, I can also be like, studying what the magazines are printing and publishing and researching and maybe looking for contacts. And like, I thought in some way it would get me closer.

• 45:27Rich Roll?

  Right. This grandiose, it's sort of like being, uh, like working the concessions at the movie theater when you wanna be a filmmaker.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Exactly. And it's, but, but how funny that we do that. Like, we, we convince ourselves, we have these delusions of grandeur. It was, it was crazy.

• 45:41Rich Roll?

  But there's an osmosis with that. Like, you're absorbing all of this and on Some level, it's feeding perhaps a fantasy of what your life could be, but you need that in order to create a foundation and a core belief that that might be possible for yourself. Like that daydreaming process, I think, is is important and you see it played out in your life in Technicolor.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  You're you're you're spot on. And one thing I've really adopted from listening to some of your podcasts was one in particular that was on kind of the importance of boredom. And and talking about how like this idea of creativity, we don't allow ourselves to have anymore because we're so filled up with our black mirrors and our phones and our this. And there's always something to synthesize us and like get us kind of engaged and get that dopamine hit. And when you're sitting there for four or five hours, there's nothing else to do, but just kind of like flip through the pages of a magazine. And daydream, it does create a sense of romanticism around this idea of a career path that I think in many ways.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Kind of exploded in my mind, you know, it's like, oh, maybe you could do this. Maybe this could be you, blah, blah, blah. And that that actually could have played, I mean, I'm just diving this now. That could have played a huge part in why I was so headstrong into like, I'm going for it.

• 47:02Rich Roll?

  So was there a moment where it clicked for you and you felt like, okay, this is going to happen? Like, how did it unfold?

• 47:09Speaker 01

  You know, this is the the funniest question that I've had a lot of times in phrase in a little different ways, like, was there like a, was there that big, great turning point in your career? And and to be honest, there was, there's never been a turning point. There's, there's been glimpses, but what the the funniest thing is, is that for me, those, I guess you you could call them turning points. It's often when I've moved past it and then looked back and realized, oh, my gosh, that thing I did, that thing I invested my time into, that book I made that cost so much money and so much time and so much energy and so much effort that I thought was a total waste of time.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Was in fact, the greatest thing I've ever done for my career. And I've constantly looked back at projects like that and looked back and looked back. And just now, I would say in the last three to four years. I'm starting to understand the importance of investing into these long term projects, these long term goals, or I I like to call them kind of personal projects where it's not commercially funded. And realize there's this great benefit there. And all I'm saying is, I guess. There hasn't been this great moment where it clicked. I really slowly, at a snail's pace, kind of made this progress. I did internships. I worked under photographers. I learned bits

• 48:27Speaker 01

  and pieces along the way. And ultimately, I was kind of given some awesome opportunities to basically go and work on a book early in my career.

• 48:38Rich Roll?

  The California Coast book.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It was a road trip with a good friend of mine from Oregon to Mexico. And it was so odd, because I had photographers who I really respected, kind of looking at me being like, "Well, why are you doing a book? You're 22 years old. I don't have a book." And I'm like, "To be honest, I don't know." You know, but looking back on that book, I all of a sudden realized this one... And again, like, it's never been in the moment. It's always like, six months later. The book took three years to make. But I remember one day, I'm sitting there, San Luis Obispo, and I'm going to Urban Outfitters for some reason, and I'm like, "My book is in Urban Outfitters. My book is in Barnes & Noble. My book is in this other tiny mom and pop, like, travel shop." And I was like, "Wait a second. I'd made this project that has all of a sudden gotten my work in front of

• 49:25Speaker 01

  new audiences." And I realized, from like, a business perspective, I was like, "That's the best thing you could ever do, is like, work on projects that all of a sudden get away from your core demographic." Because I was, I mean, I was like, surf 24/7.

• 49:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  I'm like, have alerts on my phone for when the next northwest swell is. I'm driving in my car. Again, I'm borrowing money from my girlfriend to go up and down the coast. I'm buying Del Taco for 35 cents a burrito or whatever to like, get sustenance. Like, that was my life, was like, dirtbag surf photographer. And all of a sudden, I had this side project, which felt, at the time, like, an incredible waste of time. And I realized, "Wait a second. This is kind of the key. This is what unlocks your door to a greater audience." And all of a sudden, from that book, and it took a while, like, licensing opportunities came. And then there were people who wanted to hire me to shoot other things. And yada, yada, yada. All these opportunities unfolded. And I just, it didn't fully dawn on me. And I think one of the big reasons...

• 50:25Speaker 01

  And this is something that stuck with me forever was that when we were on that trip, we were on this road trip. I've really tried to engrain this in younger creatives or photographers that are looking to be like, what's the best thing I can do for my career? It's like, live and breathe with the camera. Never in my life did I have an opportunity where I woke up every morning, the first thing I thought about was creating art. And I went to bed and the last thing I thought about was creating art. Did I shoot that photo of the moon? Did I shoot that photo of the trip? We're on this 50 day road trip from Oregon to Mexico, me and a friend, in this 1976 Volkswagen bus. And our goal was to document every coastal county. And I wanted

• 51:04Speaker 01

  to do that in the vein of something that would be timeless. And I realized that everything I had been working towards was to sell magazines, was to sell advertisements for a magazine. And all of a sudden, you have a project where you're like, wait, you're not selling to any advertisers, you're selling to an audience, to readers. This could be a 65 year old couple that kayaked down the coast, or honeymooned, or whatever. You want it to be relatable on so many levels. So, we really implemented the sense of timeless. And we stripped all the logos off of it. We tried to shoot sunrise and sunset to really get those strong silhouettes. And that body of work, to me, became so important, because it set the standard for what I wanted everything else to

• 51:46Speaker 01

  look like. And it's still in print today, because the book is still relevant.

• 51:51Rich Roll?

  Right. Published when you were 21?

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, 22, I think. I think it was actually like, we started the project in 2008, I think, or 6000. Yeah. And then it published in 2009-ish, something like that. It was kind of like, right within that period.

• 52:04Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. And as I recall, you were doing surf gigs and starting to make a name for yourself and getting paychecks. And you got a decent paycheck for some gig, and it was like five grand. But you had, you know, your tires were wearing thin.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, metal on the tires.

• 52:19Rich Roll?

  Bills that were unpaid. And the rational thing to do would have been to like, clean house at that point, right?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Buy it, buy equipment, buy some from my car.

• 52:27Rich Roll?

  Buy a new camera, whatever. Instead, you invest in yourself. Like, the lesson is, like, trust your instincts, invest in yourself. And don't sacrifice like, that short term gain, like, oh, I can get another paycheck like this. Have a longer view, vision for what you want your life to be like. And understand that these are all bricks, like, in building this, you know, infrastructure of who you want to be as an artist in the world.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Completely spot on where that's why there's never been a single moment where you're like, oh, my gosh, when did you know you made it? I'm like, well, I didn't because every time I got money, I would foolishly reinvest it in myself. And I don't mean that in the sense of like, I needed the best equipment or I needed the best car. I need, it was always like, what's the project? Or what's the trip that I could create a great body of work from that I could maybe like, sell for the next like five to six months or whatever it is. And so it was always that reinvestment, reinvestment. And even now, like, that's how my wife and I work like, and I, I always bring her into the conversation because she's been with me since the beginning. And it's kind of a crazy thing to realize that I actually, I put so much, um,

• 53:41Speaker 01

  I put so much of that, I think, success into my career into having somebody willing to support you because I kind of had left that, you know, the, the home, the nest with my mom and it was me and my mom always. And then my stepdad came in and I could kind of like detach and then, um, finding the strong partner who was like, willing to say, yeah, that's the right thing to do and willing to kind of put a lot on hold while I went on this 50 day road trip or while I went on this trip here. Well, I, you know, so that's been a constant theme in my life is strong women who've supported me and I don't think I would be anywhere without them.

• 54:14Rich Roll?

  I will back you up on that a hundred percent.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:18Rich Roll?

  You know, but art, art doesn't exist without commerce.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, sadly.

• 54:22Rich Roll?

  As you're recounting this, like, I'm thinking about the conversation that you had with Chase Jarvis, which I loved because you guys are simpatico in terms of things that you've done with your life. There's something that has to be very intoxicating about seeing your images on the cover of a magazine that you used to read when you were working in that shop, right? And, and the impulse is like, well, more of that, you know? Let's get the helicopters going.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Feed the ego.

• 54:48Rich Roll?

  You know, get all the craziness and

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Chase is, yeah.

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  There's a whole thing with that, right? Where your ego is being sated and you're getting paid very well and it's a very comfortable living. And it's a cool, it's a cool

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:00Rich Roll?

  life. Like you could exist in that space for, you know, the rest of your career.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  And this is such an important topic. And I want to kind of like sidetrack it a little bit here, but his, his story about You know, he's dreamt of, you know, being at this level and I'm sorry if I butcher it, but, but he's dreamt of being at this level and he's there and it's like he's got like four helicopters on standby and he's doing this snow shoot and it's for this big Fortune 500 brand and, and he almost just feels detached from it. Like there's, there's no, there's no passion here. And I, I've been in that exact situation. I mean, this is a way fast forward later in my career, but it, it's taught me something really significant. And again, that constant idea that like, it's a crusade against the mundane. And just

• 55:47Speaker 01

  because my mundane might be different or more exciting looking than yours, that's not what's important. I've realized that sometimes the most fearful internal growth that I can do would just be being a good dad. And that's really where I've had to like pour time and energy into are these places that scare me, or these places that I didn't feel good at. Because you know what? When you're good at managing a 60 person crew in a multimillion dollar shoot and trying to orchestrate all these people and you're in charge, it's terrifying to go into that room and try to rock a baby to sleep or something. But what I wanted to-

• 56:19Rich Roll?

  Don't you know who I am?

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Child, you know, yeah, silence. The crazy thing I've, I've come to understand about this process of kind of being on those big, big shoots where like, oh man, your ego is just like inflates, right? And you see your work on the, on the, you know, the screensaver of some high-end computer, or you see your work on a billboard driving down to LA, or whatever it is, is that it's in those moments, and I've promised myself always that the time to consider that personal project, that meaningful story, that new book about that children's book, or that book on Iceland's glacial rivers, or that film that you're doing about a friend and parenthood, that's the time when I want

• 57:05Speaker 01

  to learn to say, okay, I know life is going great and I could milk this for all it's worth. I could milk this, this moment in my career where I'm kind of elevating. But if I don't stop and I don't consider what I could do to, for the long-term health of not only me, but of my career to do something meaningful. And what I mean, and I, and I, and I want to make sure people understand, when I say meaningful- It's meaningful to put food on the table. It's meaningful to be a good provider. That's why collecting stamps and a passport and a paycheck is a totally fine thing. But there's an element of feeding your soul that's so important. And for me, there are these side projects that have fed my soul. And it's in those moments of great success that you have to learn to stop.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  And maybe even take a step back and be like, what am I doing to sustain my own health? And that's kind of where, as a career, as a photographer, as a creative, as a husband. And that's really how, and I've been able to, I think, sustain this business is because I've taken mental stock and I've stopped. And I've tried to invest in these other projects that aren't money-making ventures. They're just purely there to keep me grounded.

• 58:14Rich Roll?

  It takes a lot of self-awareness, though, to engage with that process. Like, you've clearly done a lot of work on yourself because, you know, a lot of people wouldn't have the capacity to pause like that. So like, what, how did you arrive at that level of maturity?

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:33Rich Roll?

  Because you're still a young dude.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  I'm not mature. I'm not mature at all. Yeah, no, I'm absolutely, uh, to be honest, um, there have been things that have, that have occurred in my life, that have happened in my life, that have forced me to take mental stock. There are things in my life and issues and things that have, that have kind of halted me in my steps. And, and then I think certain things where you see an opportunity and it's so easy to be like, I don't have time for that. I don't have time, I don't have time to do that yoga teacher training. I don't care about that stuff. And then my wife's like, no, this would probably be good for you. And I do it and I'm like, oh my gosh, like this just changed my whole life. This just changed everything. And, um, that was one thing that was really helpful, like learning how to meditate, like learning how to breathe correctly, learning how to slow down.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  And, um, not because I ever had intentions of teaching yoga, but I wanted to have a deeper understanding of that part of my life and like. That was a forced slowdown and then there were a bunch of other things in my life that have kind of, whether, whether I accepted it or not, forced me to do that. And now I look forward to them. I look forward to that, that thing that's going to slow me down because in doing that, I'm just looking to get back to the magazine store. I'm just looking for that little bit of boredom that can spur that creativity that can then get me back. And that sometimes comes with spending time with my kids because their thoughts are so simple and the things they love are so, are so simple that I can get back to that place. Sometimes

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  it's, it's on the hinges or the heels of a personal project where, and that's what you find is that another good thing comes from that and another connection and another connection. And so there's sort of these two worlds you end up operating in. One is this, you know, ultra high performing provider that's trying to make a living. And then you have this other side that's this, you know, you're trying to feed your soul and be creative and, and put out something meaningful. And if it makes you money, great. But if it doesn't, you don't even care because you're willing to be the starving artist. And I think learning to realize that there, you need to feed both these.

• 1:00:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's that tension that, that, that basically creates the path. And I'm probably projecting, but I would imagine that all the time spent, you know, in the majesty of these very imposing inhospitable environments gives you, infuses you with a sense of, of humility and, you know, a perception of your life and your relationship with time that right sizes you. You know, it's like life's short, man. Like is it, who really cares? Like when you're in the water and you're seeing these mountains and these glaciers and things like that. Like just do what you love. Do what speaks to you.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Right. Um, this is a funny concept too, because.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Again, that mundane, that chasing that mundane thing, you know, like you, you get at some point, you get sort of, it comes common nature. You're seeing the beauty of the world. You're traveling all over the world. I've been to places and had experiences that I literally could not describe in words. So how do I learn to, I guess, synthesize it now? That's kind of where learning to tell stories in a different way has come about. That's why I'm riding my bike. That's why I got into climbing. That's why I got into yoga, because I was feeling so much emotion and I was feeling so much, you know, and I'm not a big energy person, but like I use the word sometimes. So. I think you are more than you.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  My wife is big. I'm just like, it's the energy, you know, it's like, but I'm feeling this thing. I just cannot compute. And I'm like, how else can I synthesize this? The camera's not doing it. So is it cinematography? Is it spoken word? Is it me being willing to get up on a stage and talk to people and share that experience, totally stripped down from all my tools that make me feel successful or talented? Like you take the camera away, you take this just microphone right here, you know, in front of you, you're trying to, to share an experience intimately with somebody. And that is kind of why I have felt the need to explore different modalities of these places. It's why I went to Iceland

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  and wanted to ride my bike around last year in an ultra endurance race. I did this ride called the Wow Cyclathon. And this was kind of the predecessor to this current ride I did through the interior. I wanted to do that because I wanted to know what it felt. This just sounds crazy. I feel like I sound like a full addict, which is fine. But I wanted to know what it felt like to, to be there. And when the wind picks up and the rain picks up and the wind is sideways and it's just blowing snow or whatever it is, that I can't hide in a car, that I can't hide in a tent, that I can't go to my Airbnb. And when you've been to a place that's given you so much and you're willing to subject yourself to the worst it has to offer.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  I think there's something special. There's a connection there and I truly feel that about the places I love. Like I aim to experience that in Yosemite or in Big Sur or in these places I love. Like I want to whittle myself down and strip the ego away and just be like, what's there? You know, and that's kind of why I like to do that stuff.

• 1:03:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, that's the juice, man. And I want to plant a flag there for a second, divert for a moment.

• 1:03:57Rich Roll?

  I think people get confused because they'll dial you up on Instagram and they see your super groovy, you know, well-appointed Surfshack studio and this like amazing home and you've got these animals and the alpacas. And it paints this picture of this idyllic life. You ride your bike to work and it all looks super dope.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:18Rich Roll?

  And you know, when I see that, I'm like, oh, that would be amazing. You know, like if I just bank enough cash, like maybe I could set myself up like that. But in truth, it all emanates from that instinct to go deep within yourself, to put yourself in those places where you're confronted in the most profound way with who you are.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's a weird scenario to have this sort of, I guess you could say a wire crossed where you're like, when things get too good, you have to remind yourself of how hard life can be. I don't know why. And I know there's, I mean, that's a whole nother talk or a whole nother episode, but I, I feel the need to remind myself of what struggle is. Not to say that I haven't experienced it because that gets me back to the core of who I am. And I guess just to sidetrack a little bit, you know, I have sometimes people reaching out to me being like, again, with that question, like, when was that turning point? When was that? And I'm like, there was never one because I never wanted one. I could have gone down roads in photography. I had opportunities to move to LA or San Francisco, take a job photo editing and make good money and like have a secure job, but I didn't want

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  the security. I wanted to always be willing to sacrifice. If you stay hungry, it's always there. And so I think that I look back at those early years, like, again, my wife always asks me when I say this, but living like at poverty level, you know, just like kind of scraping by with pennies under your mat and being like, I thrive in that place. I love that place because it reminds me of what I was capable of. And I think in some ways I aim to replicate that in certain places because I never want to get too comfortable.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. In other words, when you think back on your career, it's not landing that first magazine cover, it's remembering sleeping in your car and

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Rich Roll?

  And knowing that you actually, that was cool. Like you were having a good time because you were on your path.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  And it sucked in the moment, but hindsight is 2020, perspective is everything. And I'm like, you know what? Had I not driven down the night before and slept in my car or this and that, or again, like random experiences throughout the world, like gotten thrown in a jail cell in Russia, I would have never gained the insight.

• 1:06:25Rich Roll?

  We're not going to talk about that.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I'm not throwing it out there for dramatic effect, but like those were life-changing experiences that I, I look back on as great opportunities. And you could look at it, be like, oh, it's pure stupidity. It was. But if you take that step back, again, that was one of those halting moments, jarring moments where I'm like, I've got 24 hours in this jail cell to think about every stupid decision I've made in my life and why I've gotten here. And that is one of those times where you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna digest this. And it, and I'm grateful for the moments I've been forced to do that.

• 1:07:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I was going to go back and talk about the, the cycling race, but while we're on the subject of being jailed in Russia, we might as well tell this story now.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a funny one. And it's one I've tried to adapt into kind of like a good, it's a presentation piece that I've spoken at because, because there was a good lesson to be learned. It took me many years to, to fully understand it, right? But the, the point being is that I was in a time in my life where I just kind of embarked on this journey of exploring cold places, of these cold environments of, of, you know, Iceland and Norway and yada, and I, and I knew what I wanted to do in my career as a surf photographer and as a photographer in general. And so my sights were totally set, maybe even narrowly set, on where in the world hasn't been explored, where in the world hasn't been served, where in, where could I, you know, be the first to break open to it. So there was ego there and, um, and with ego

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  becomes complacency and with complacency comes, I think, a lot of, uh, I think trying to jump over maybe some, some barriers or guardrails of, of safety that, that really force people to, to acknowledge before they go into this country. And one of those ones was just, I, I, you know, I applied for all the visas to get there. I wanted to go to Vladivostok, which is like the, the far end, uh, the far east of Russia. It's a very un-touristed place at the time. And we line up all our ducks and we get there and everything's great and we're, we're about to go through customs. And I remember vividly, and I'm gonna try to make the long story short here, but remember vividly looking, every single person that

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  I orchestrated their travel plans to get there, they one by one go through customs, boom, boom, boom. And I'm the very last one. I'm just so excited, bright eyed. And I remember looking at this customs lady and she looks at me and I look at her and I'm doing my best to do the non-verbal exchange of like, everything's good and we're great. This is gonna be awesome. And it was just like, immediately she's like pointing to my entry date on my visa and she's like basically saying no. Um, and that- You got your date wrong. That escalated into, yeah, a six hour interrogation of why I was there, why my date was wrong. And I'm like, I applied for all these visas at the same time. Like there's no way I got my date wrong. I looked back, my date wasn't wrong. It was a, it was a

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  mistake on behalf of the people that, that had made my visa in San Francisco. But the reality was I was so blindsided, so excited about what I was doing and my goal and this and that, that I, I didn't even look at that. So I got there and basically the flight left that went back to Korea. And they were like, or I had a, I had a kind of a fixer there, Olga, and she, she negotiated with them and did my best and was so sad because I could see her face. She's talking, talking, talking. And then she looks at me and she's like, you know, just looking terrible. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. I'm like sweating bullets. And then she's like, they're gonna detain you for 24 hours, maybe longer, until the next flight, and then you're gonna be deported. And I'm like, okay, so when am I getting

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  out? And she's like, no, you don't understand. And I kinda went into the state of shock. I'm walking with all my gear, two armed guards, you know, past all my friends, like the journalists, the surfers, all these guys are staring at me. And I'm like, tell my wife I'm fine. Luckily, I had a chance to keep my cellphone. But I get there, and I'm, I'm, all of a sudden, I'm in this kinda like, this hotel across the street from the airport that was more of like a, you know, municipal building. And I'm walking up to like, the third floor, and there's all these rooms with no handles and just locks. And they put me in this room, and it's just bars on the windows, caught on the floor, water spilling out of a, you know, some sort

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  of a toilet that's in the ground, and no door on the backside. And that was it. And I remember vividly in that moment, calling my wife and, and just explaining to her, because I was married at the time, I was pretty young, like, hey, this happened, be calm, everything's good, yada, yada, yada. I think the second call I made was to AT&T to be like, I'm in a jail cell in Russia, I'm gonna have a lot of phone bills, can you please just waive the $10,000 fee? I don't know why I went there, but I was like, this is gonna happen, because I'm gonna be calling the US Embassy. So my wife's on the phone, calling the Embassy, yada, yada, yada, all these things. All of a sudden, she calls me back, and she's like, okay, if they don't feed you, you can probably get out, because that would be cruel and unusual

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  punishment. They have to feed you, this is what the Embassy said, yada, yada, yada. You know, and I'm like, kinda thinking through these scenarios here. All of a sudden, six hours later, a guard knocks on my door. And I'm just gonna be totally honest here, his name was Igor, he had one I. There was a small moment where I thought this was a joke.

• 1:11:40Rich Roll?

  Right, you're right out of a Bond movie.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Right out of a Bond movie. And I'd been watching a lot of 24 at the moment, and I was thinking like, is there a way to break out of here? What am I gonna do? He grabs me, and, not grabs me, but takes me down to This kitchen, um, very, very bottom. It's like just stainless steel kitchen. Everything looked like it had been, you know, used to feed large groups of military troops. And right in front of me, there's, there's three cups. There's like cucumber, a cup of mayonnaise, and then like some soup. And I'm just like, I didn't want to offend the guy at all. So I'm like, I'm just gonna eat everything he offers me so I can get through this experience. So they fed me and um, there's one part to this story that's actually like, I look back and I just can't

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  help but laugh so much. But coming from a small town and having kind of a big family within that small town, you know, you have these friends and these people. It's always like, oh yeah, so and so's been to Russia. You should talk to him, her, Chris, about, about her experience and, and things that you could learn. And so, um, I go to this family friend who had spent time in Russia, you know, before my trip. I'm like, you know, 21 years old at the time and I'm trying to get a little bit of like insight, what to say, mannerisms, just like trying to do my due diligence. This was the, the very littlest bit of, of research I kinda did. And she was like, oh yeah, okay. So here's three things. You say thank you, you say this. And if you need to go to the bathroom, you say this. And so when Igor came to my room,

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  I, he opened the door and I'm kinda doing that non-verbal communication thing, just trying to be nice, looking him in the eye. And, uh, and, and then I'm, I kinda point to the bathroom and I'm like, I need to go to the bathroom. Like the bathroom wasn't working, right? It was like seeping into the floor, like all over everywhere. And, um, what I told him, and I'm gonna butcher this because I don't actually remember the term, but I think it was the, the verbiage is kochuklizmu. And, um, he looked at me in a way that no man has ever looked at me before. And, uh, it was in that moment that I realized what I had just told him was, was millions of miles away from can I go to the bathroom?

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  And I quickly turned the subject to like, oh, okay, let's go eat food. Wonderful. I will go with you. Like as submissive as I could be, you know? It wasn't until weeks later.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  And the funniest thing is that when that lady found out that I was in a jail cell, she was like calling my mom and calling Bree and what's going on with Chris? Yada, like freaking out. We couldn't really tell why. What I had told him was, I need an enema, please.

• 1:14:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  And so it was just this-

• 1:14:16Rich Roll?

  So ultimately, you were punked, just not in the way that you thought.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Punked, and I deserved it because I was that dumb kid who didn't look at my, my entry to my visa, but like that moment would just always was seared into my memory. And, and I remember coming home, and I think the long story short here is that

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  this process of wanting to become a better person, you, you hope it finds you through traveling, but the reality is it never does. It's never, you know, it's never climbing Everest that makes you a better person. You're the same person you started as you ended. And if that means you're a jerk, so be it, right? That process starts before you leave your front door. And that was a really hard way to learn that lessons. It starts by researching

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  the place you're going to, understanding their customs, understanding their people, understanding that like this isn't a well-turisted place at all. They saw our cameras, they saw my cameras, and regardless of if I had a good entry date or not, I was gonna be interrogated anyway.

• 1:15:09Rich Roll?

  Well, it's a military port, right?

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  It's the largest military port outside of Kamchatka. And it was like, nobody was traveling there. We didn't see a single other American. And so just to go there with that amount of ignorance just really made me realize like that was an experience I'm grateful to have. It was terrifying.

• 1:15:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  I cried. I've never had my rights stripped from me like that, to be in another country where you don't speak the language, you don't know what's happening, and you're literally being deported back to Korea, and you're on an assignment, and everything's kind of hinging upon you making this trip successful. Like, beyond all that, I'm a, you know, young, married man who's trying to like make every trip valuable because this is how I make a living. And so to come back to- My editor and my wife and everybody would be like, yeah, I just had to rebook a flight to come to Vladi Boskak days later and I had to deal with all this. It's like everything was just piling on me and that stress in that cell was palpable.

• 1:16:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's a, it's another like lesson in humility too, right? Like I had a version of that. I got asked to give a talk in Karachi, Pakistan.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Oh, hey.

• 1:16:16Rich Roll?

  Early in this kind of phase of my, my career and I just thought this is the coolest thing ever. Like no one's ever going to ask me if I want to go to Pakistan again. And I just went like, it's going to be incredible. And I didn't ground myself enough or educate myself about what I was getting into. And it wasn't until I was on the flight from Dubai to Karachi and I'm sitting on this airplane and looking around, realizing I'm the only Westerner. And when I got off the plane, you know, being greeted by two guards with, you know, machine guns and having a very strange experience going through customs, that I had this profound sense of just how far away from home I was and just how little I knew about what I was getting myself into.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  And did that hopefully translate into, I'm guessing, a great learning opportunity for future.

• 1:17:04Rich Roll?

  Of course. Yeah. And just an appreciation, you know, for not just, you know, what I have, but for, you know, the diversity of experiences to be had by virtue of traveling.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  And I think if, if and when we can share those things learned with others, it starts to break apart the process and realize, okay, this was valuable. There was something to be gained. There was something to be learned. Others can hopefully not endure this scary experience I had because of this. And I think that's where I found a lot of the value as well, coming back to that storytelling element, you know?

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. All right. Well, back to the, the cycling race.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Rich Roll?

  So you, you characterize this in a very humble way. So let's be clear, for people that are watching or listening, this was a 850 mile.

• 1:17:53Rich Roll?

  Cycling excursion around the circumference of Iceland.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  It's famous Ring Road.

• 1:18:00Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, yeah, and I'm familiar with this race. My cousin did it as part of a relay.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Oh, no way.

• 1:18:05Rich Roll?

  The year before you did, and I kind of followed him online as he did that.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Cool. Where's he from?

• 1:18:10Rich Roll?

  He lives up in Reno.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Cool, no way. Yeah, I know a lot of Westerners come over and do the, it's like really, really beautiful. And relay team would be the way to do it, for sure.

• 1:18:21Rich Roll?

  Right, exactly. I mean, he was doing it for fun with his buddies and there was no aspirations of being competitive. I didn't even know that there was a solo category.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Rich Roll?

  And by all appearances, not very many people opt for that.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:18:35Rich Roll?

  So not only did you do this, you actually like set the course record.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:41Rich Roll?

  And you're not coming from bike racing. I know you're an avid cyclist and have been for a long time, but it's not like you were out there killing races for years leading up to this.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  No. So it's a funny thing because my relationship with endurance sports is an odd one because I've chased professional athletes around the world for the majority of my career. And oftentimes you're on the sidelines or you're, it's a hard thing to really explain because like, it's like if you ever want to like learn what it's like to kill your joy of surfing, become a surf photographer. All the very best days where you're in the best waves on the planet watching, you're not surfing, right? So your, your experience of surfing is limited to the very worst days. So that's where I'm like, I need to find new hobbies. Climbing became one of those hobbies. Yoga became one of those hobbies. Cycling became one of those hobbies.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  And to be honest, I bought a bike because I lived super close to my office and I didn't want to, I just couldn't justify driving. So I was like, I'm going to go to Craigslist. I bought a bike for 400 bucks, loved the bike, some old Bianchi. That bike became a tool for the weekends to go explore. I love the idea of going down roads. I've been a lot of times in my community and all of a sudden you're seeing it and it's slower and it's more visceral. And when my first son rolled around Jeremiah, I realized that these three, four hour rides in the weekends aren't going to fly.

• 1:20:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  So I kind of stopped and I really only picked back up cycling maybe two and a half years ago. Yeah, right, two and a half years ago, basically, because my kids are old enough and I felt like I could take that time. And I got a new bike and like, like many things, you know, you get new toys. All of a sudden, you're like, oh, man, my, my fuel for this is reignited. And I just remember feeling on that first ride, like the freedom. I was like, this is so rad. I miss this. I love this. It's like having a great day surfing, you know? And it was such a nice thing because again, it was all about commuting to my office. But then those rides would get longer.

• 1:20:42Rich Roll?

  Right, which is what, like four miles?

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then it was like, oh, I'm taking the long way. Oh, I'm going up this hill. Oh, I'm gonna go take like two hours and ride around. So it just became longer and longer and I, and I kind of dawned on me like, you know, there's something to be said for like, you enjoy doing something. Don't you enjoy doing it as long as you possibly can, you know? And with other sports, there's limitations. You can't climb for 18 hours straight, like you're taking breaks, right? You can't surf for more than like six, seven hours. You'll turn into a prune or you need food or whatever. Running too, you know, like you're stopping at aid stations, you're doing this and that, you have to whatever. So the thing, the beauty of cycling is I'm like, wait, I can have food and I can have water and I can have everything I need and I can have a route and I can have a great podcast.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  I'm like, it became this, this state of meditation where I could think about everything. And it was just relaxed enough to where I could take in my surroundings. Like you can look around and like, enjoy what's going on. You're not staring at the pavement, you're not looking at the pool, bottom of the pool. You know, I, I just found that that was the one athletic pursuit where I was like, this is, this is everything. I could, I, I was able to synthesize everything very much in a way that I really enjoyed. And low and behold, much to like my, my colleagues or my wife, my business partners, whatnot dismay. Like I never really told anybody that in the back of my mind, there was this idea after learning about the Wow Cycleathon race that maybe I could do it, or maybe I'd want to do it.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  It, it felt like such a distant dream memory, but I remember being in Iceland years prior, meeting a friend, a filmmaker, who was like, I have done this race, it's amazing, you would love it, come here, do a relay.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  And so I kind of secretly made that decision. And it's really funny because for me, everything when it's goal based is so much easier. When I have that focus, it's so much easier. So I kind of went into this not really saying anything to anybody that I'm going to like, do these training rides. Like, why, Chris, why are you riding eight, nine, 10 hours on a weekend? I'm like, oh, you know, just super fun. But I'm like, so what happens after you do a century? You know, what happens at 150 miles? What happens at 200 miles? What happens at 250 miles? What happens at 300? And that, that constant curiosity kept me going and it kept me enjoying the process of learning. And all of a sudden, it was like every mile more, every hour more, you're just, you're

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  pushing whatever boundary you had and you're kind of breaking through that. I mean, like, this is amazing. And so that, that process of training really taught me so much. And I, it's funny because I've, I've kind of in some ways thought about having this conversation with you as somebody who truly understands what you have to give to the training process. Cause you've, you've done it, you know, so much throughout your life. And so it's, it was interesting for me because I, at a certain point, I realized the miles, the hours, the sort of, the, the work on the body becomes, is important, but it starts to, you start to get robotic and that just becomes kind of commonplace. You're going through the motions, doing this and that.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Like what I realized was that what I needed to do was start to train my mind because what's going to happen when it's hour 24 and you've never ridden through the night and you've never ridden straight through the darkness and you've never ridden with a tiny beam of light in front of your face or you're, you've stayed up for 48 hours and you're still riding. What's going to, that going to feel like? What's it going to feel like when you've eaten a big meal and you're riding and you have indigestion, you feel terrible? What's it going to feel like when you're sick? So through that winter, I started going on these, but what my wife and friends would call it was these, these psychotic, like, you know, rides were like, wait.

• 1:24:28Rich Roll?

  Get up at two in the morning.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, wait, yeah. Thanksgiving night, wait, Chris, you're going riding at midnight? Did you just eat like tons of apple pie and whatever? I'm like, yeah, I'm going out. So it was like, you know, I'd have these selfies of me just like bloodshot eyes and everything because I knew that if there was any chance on God's green earth, I was going to be able to endure that. I had to prepare for that because I didn't want any question of what would happen. And so. Maybe in some ways I went into this overtrained, but I couldn't mimic the, the weather in Iceland. So I just tried to go out in any situation where there was rain, there was wind, straight into a headwind. And I had some really amazing experiences on that training ride. And when I went and I did that race in Iceland, I hate, I mean, we can't even, I don't even know if we're allowed to use this word anymore, but it

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  was as much of a spirit quest as I've ever felt in my life.

• 1:25:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, I don't doubt it. I mean, as much as you train, you're like, oh, I might've overtrained. I mean, no matter how much you train, how could you possibly prepare for an 800 mile ride? Like, doing a century is hard. A double century is a gigantic feat. I've never ridden my bike more than 200 miles. Like, I've dipped my toe in ultra endurance, and I have a sense of this, but I've never done anything like ride 800. I mean, that's the equivalent of like riding from LA to San Francisco like two and a half times, right? This is like an insane undertaking.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  It was psychotic. And there was a fire there that was unrelenting. Like, I got on the bike, and I didn't get off the bike for 12, for 10 straight hours. I didn't pee. I didn't do anything. I made, I don't know how, I made like some sort of agreement with my bladder. I'm like, we're getting through this because in the beginning of the ride, I had a tailwind that was the most beautiful thing I've ever witnessed. And I did 200 miles in 10 hours. And it was unreal. I've never felt anything like it. I was like, this is, this is a dream. I'm like, I'm gonna commit to this. And it was just-

• 1:26:22Rich Roll?

  And you round a corner and suddenly the wind's in your face.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the first 24 hours, in fact, I did like, yeah, 400 something miles in just under 24 hours. And that was the north part of the country. But then I got to the south, and it was like, okay, I've given you this opportunity to experience the joy and the beauty and the pleasure. Now, let's endure what's really here. And I remember coming onto the south coast through the fjords, you know, hour number like 36 or whatever it is, no sleep, and just on this kind of caffeine regiment and fuel regiment, feeling excited. And I see this huge like whipped cream, kind of like, like ice cream cloud above the Vatniyoke glacier area, which is this big glacier really close to the ocean. It's where the big ice lake is. And it's, it's infamous for its winds. The south coast

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  is where the, the most catastrophic and large scale wind events happen. And I got down there. I'm blanking on the name of the clouds, but normally I would, I would know, but it's like, you can look at them and you're like, that's high wind and that's descending upon me. And I remember coming around the head of the mountain and it was like, I could not, I, it was everything in my power not to lay the bike over. Like I was riding at a 45 degree angle, you know, deep dish wheels and you're just sitting there like every part of me was gripping like, the craziest thing is like the intensity of a wind. I would rather ride in rain, thunder, lightning, everything but high wind is so traumatic that it just, there's nothing you can do. It's like, it's like in every,

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  so that was brutal. And I had like six hours of that and then I had seven hours of rain and I got to feel the full brunt of it.

• 1:28:00Rich Roll?

  You got everything you signed up for.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Everything I signed up for and.

• 1:28:03Rich Roll?

  How much did you sleep?

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  I didn't sleep at all. Um, I didn't sleep for 66 hours.

• 1:28:07Rich Roll?

  It was 66 hours total?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  It was, it was a 52, 52 hour race, but I, you know, I was up a couple of hours before that. And then I, after the race, I ate, you know, and because if I was just like to pass out, I'd be detrimental. So I ate and I, yeah, no sleep. I tried to sleep at hour 24.

• 1:28:24Rich Roll?

  How did you stay upright on the bike? Did you hallucinate?

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I hallucinated a hundred percent. I, I, um, the two things that I felt, I remember very vividly was seeing a unicorn and then, um, and then.

• 1:28:37Rich Roll?

  Well, you're in Iceland, you could have seen a unicorn.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  There were horses, but I was like that, like it was like this white horse on a pedestal of rock with all the other horses below it. And I was like, I was like amazing and, and fully. And then I got it. My friend Ellie, who I made the film about, he had made me a little hot tub at his parents' house and I get in the hot tub and I'm like, Ellie, there's a snake in here. You gotta get the snake out of here. Fella buddy's like, there's no reptiles in Iceland, none. And I'm like, okay. It was, it was pretty funny. And then I, I passed out, but the reality is, I mean, you know, this feeling like I tried to sleep at hour 24. My legs were just throbbing so much that I couldn't sleep. It wasn't even, it would have been better just to keep going. I think that, and I, I wish I wouldn't have tried to sleep because I could have got a faster time. But, um, the funniest thing is going into the race, the whole mindset for me was like,

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  what I told people is like, I just want to finish it. It'll be a great goal to finish it. But in my back of my mind, I'm like, what if you could win? What if you could set a new course record and knowing what that was going to require of me physically was, um,

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  Maybe in some ways, uh, like a little psychotic, but I, but I, it was such a beautiful experience. Like I wouldn't take, I wouldn't take anything away from that, you know?

• 1:29:50Rich Roll?

  Well, you, the whole thing was shared in real time on Instagram stories. I remember following it, just being like wrapped, including all your training leading up to it. Like that was really cool to watch. Was there any other solo category rider that year?

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  There were two. There was one named Erica who is, um, he has won it three times. He had the current speed record. Awesome Icelandic guy, just a beautiful soul. He made it about, uh, eighth of the way. And then I think he was having knee issues, so he DNF'd. But, um, it was funny because in the beginning I've got, you know, it's a fully sagged race. You have to be, I personally wish it was more of a self-supported scenario, but, um, I had never dealt with sag before. So I didn't know how to do all this bottle handoff and all these things.

• 1:30:33Rich Roll?

  Right. That's another context in which they say, don't work with your friends.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. And I, but I was grateful enough to work with some people that I knew decently well. And they put up with me amazing. But I was in the beginning, I'm like, hey, guys, I'm just gonna load up as much food and as much water as I can. So I like went off the line really heavy cause I'm like, cause I just don't wanna deal with the, the handoff and the calling you on my phone or having a walkie. Um, and so that was kinda what I did. And that was sort of the way I went about it was I carried like 60 ounces of water and, um, I carried like, uh, 6,000 calories onboard and just tried to not stop. That was my, that was my method. I'm not, not gonna go fast. I'm just not gonna stop.

• 1:31:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  But anyway, at a certain point, we're 24 hours in, I'm like, guys, I'm like, I know I'm doing decently. Where is, where are the other soloists? There was another gal from Alaska who was a soloist. And they're like, oh man, they're not that far from you, like blah, blah. And they didn't tell me till like hour 40 that he had DNF'd a while back. And I, it was so fun. I'm great. I'm so grateful they didn't. Cause that's like true friendship. They're like, they're like, they know there's a fire.

• 1:31:36Rich Roll?

  Fire, yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  Um, and Ah, yeah, it was, it was a brutal year for weather and everything, but it was, it was a wild experience. I remember in the beginning just being so excited. I'm like, you have to keep, when you're doing those solo rides, you have to keep a distance from the person in front of you or the person behind you, right? So you're, you're forcing yourself to keep a speed and I'm, and they're like, Chris, don't pass him because he was kind of setting the pace. And I kept thinking like, okay, well, this person's done this a million times. Like, they know Iceland, they're from here. Like, this is the person I should be following to set the pace. And when the time is right, if I can overtake, do it. You know, maybe like tomorrow. But it was like mile 11. And I'm like, guys, I'm so excited. I can't do this. Like, I cannot go at this pace. We were going like, whatever. And I felt the

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  tailwind and I was like, later. And I just bolted and I never saw him again.

• 1:32:26Rich Roll?

  If I was in your crew van, I would have told you to chill out.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  You would have been pissed.

• 1:32:30Rich Roll?

  Because that's like beginner's enthusiasm that you just, you can't repay that debt.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And I, and my excitement got me into a couple of other scenarios. I remember going around a roundabout and it was raining and I like flew off the roundabout because I was, it was all wet and I like went into the ditch and just rode through it. Like, they're like, what is this guy doing?

• 1:32:46Rich Roll?

  What was the former record?

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Um, I think it was 56 hours.

• 1:32:51Rich Roll?

  So you broke the record by four hours?

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And a part of me,

• 1:32:54Rich Roll?

  That is legit.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Part of me is sad because I knew I, there's moments where I'm like, I should have, I could, I didn't have to make up time there. Knowing the course would have been a huge advantage, but I was blessed with incredible weather and I knew that, but that's the beauty of a circle, right? You're always going to get a tailwind somewhere. But again, there's been years where it's frosted and, and snowing and years they've had to call it off, years they've had to change the route because of 90 mile an hour winds.

• 1:33:18Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  So, yeah, all the elements were there.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  90 mile an hour winds.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, terrible.

• 1:33:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you wouldn't be able to ride through that. That's nuts. So when you finish that, are you thinking never again? Or like, what's the next thing?

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  When I finished that race, My mom and my wife showed up in Iceland and I purposefully planned it because I, I kind of told them like, hey, you're gonna be there when I finish. Like this would be the normal time I finish. Seventy-two hours. It's kind of the average finishing time. I finished earlier and I was grateful I did because they

• 1:33:50Rich Roll?

  By twenty hours.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, they weren't there yet, so they couldn't see me in like this really fragile state. So I finished and the beauty was like, this was the first international trip I was ever gonna be able to take my mom on in her life. And so I come off this incredible high of this experience and just all the emotions flooding through my body and everything you can imagine when you're hallucinating and you're running on pure adrenaline and then all of a sudden kind of wake up from this like deep slumber and have my mom, my wife there and be able to be like, now I get to show you, you know, the two most important people in my life, like the beauty of this place I love so much. And that was, like, that was the congratulations. That was the success. That was the podium. Like, that was the greatest thing ever. And

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  so I like, didn't sleep, woke up, I'm like, I'm driving you guys to all my favorite spots. We did like a twenty-four hour push and saw everything we could and then went back to the award ceremony and it was just like, that was the coolest experience ever. And to be able to share that was like, yeah, I can't think of a greater seventy-two hour window of my life.

• 1:34:56Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's awesome. The landscapes are just insane there. Like, I'm thinking of, there was one clip in the, in the film where Ellie's like walking on the top of this cliff and there's this like arch.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kilometer of Assault, yeah. It's, it's all volcanic, basically. Almost everything there has been created by volcanoes and glaciers. And so you have all this beautiful uplift where Kilometer of Assault is created and then like everything wears away and it's left there and it's kind of like hanging teeth almost, like some medieval castle. And that's what's so weird is that when you're there, you're walking through this landscape, it's one of the youngest on earth and you feel it. Like, you feel that intimacy, that closeness with it. And you're, you're walking through places that are, in some ways, relatively unsafe because the landscape is changing and things can fall away.

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  Right. This is like the earth percolating up.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:35:51Rich Roll?

  In its rust form. So in the wake of that cycling experience, like, how does that change or inform? Your worldview or like how you think about the creative process?

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  You know what's so interesting was I, as much as it was just amazing to do and experience, sharing it was so valuable and showing people that like I come from relatively no experience. I'm not a gifted cyclist in any regard. I mean, if anything, I've learned how to take a photograph and make a film, but to be able to kind of understand and share with people that in order to truly know a place and experience that you have to subject yourself to it in some way, you have to be willing to. And I think that that experience of sharing the story of the race, of the training, of all those things, and my commitment to place,

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  my commitment to experience. I mean, I will sum all that up as like, I didn't ride a bike to get exercise. I didn't ride a bike to stay up for 66 hours or to burn 35,000 calories. I rode a bike because I wanted to know what it felt like, to be so insignificant in an environment that I love and to feel so small and to remind myself of what that's like, because that's what it felt like the first time I was there. And so we look for opportunities to do that in our life. And I'm not saying the bar needs to constantly be raised and the risk needs to constantly be elevated, but I do feel like there's moments in your life when you realize like, the time is now, like there's never going to be another window. And I think what I, what I hope people kind of can understand from that is like,

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  I turned down work to do that. I had read in the process of training Greg McKeown's book, Essentialism. Have you had a chance to read it?

• 1:37:41Rich Roll?

  I have, yeah.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  It's about, it's really about deciding what's essential in your life. And he has this amazing mantra that he talks about where, you know, learning to say no is really learning to say yes to what you want. And as somebody who has been a yes man their whole life, for good reason, because I was, again, raised by a mom and my dad who basically like super blue collar and any work that came was good. And, and I still witness that, that hard work ethic today. Like saying no to work was, was. Not even on my radar. So to realize that I've gotten to this place in my career where I have the ability to maybe say no to something in order to give myself to something I really want was a really beautiful experience.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  And that's where I just felt like the real learning happened and occurred, right?

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that comes part and parcel with success. You know, the, the drive to advance your craft requires saying yes to so much. You know, that's part of what it means to build a career, like just doing stuff for free, always being available and all of that. And then you reach a certain inflection point and you can't do that anymore. That will bury you, right? So you have to develop these boundaries and learn how to say no to things and, and, and develop that sense of clarity about what's most important.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  And that's the part nobody teaches you. Nobody teaches you how to say no. I mean, everything, all the workshops out there, everything like how to say yes, how to, you know, but, and how to, how to be more efficient. But that's been the hardest thing is like realizing that statement, like saying no is saying yes to what you want. And I said, yes, something I wanted and it, it gave me a beautiful gift and it gave me a sense of pride and a sense of that. And I think this is what it comes back to is we're looking for validation in everything we do. That's the world. That's, that's like growing up in 2020 is, is, is social media is just a sense of validation and everything we do. And so I've always realized, again, when sometimes things get too easy and or receiving validation can sometimes feel like a slot machine, a little too easy.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  On social media, for example, you know, you can share something and have millions of people like it and this, that. I have to remind myself, okay, real validation doesn't come from an app, doesn't come from people that don't truly know you. I think it comes from making somebody proud, feeling love, feeling that intimacy, feeling that connection to place, feeling that connection to story. And maybe in some ways riding your bike 850 miles around the country, feeling some sense of greater purpose that, you know, and I think that's what it was all about, that validation that like you worked for this and you achieved this. That's something I feel like I'm constantly searching for in my life in different ways.

• 1:40:29Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a fidelity to your value system. Like I look at that bike race as a close cousin to the decision to get into a VW van and go up and down the coast. Like these are related, these are not unrelated, you know, inspirations, right? It's a, it's a way of recapturing the innocence of that experience by putting yourself in an environment that's unfamiliar to you and the learning that comes. And, you know, to your point about social media, I mean, you're a guy who, who you've got like, I don't know, four million people on Instagram who follow you, which is insane, right? And that has to induce some level of vertigo, right? Like, how do I manage this? And how do I, you know, shoulder

• 1:41:11Rich Roll?

  the responsibility of communicating at such a mass level? And in trying to deconstruct, like how you got to this place where so many people are interested in, in experiencing, you know, life through your lens, there's a lot of really technically talented nature and adventure photographers out there who are doing amazing things. So why is it that you have four million and somebody else who's, you know, perhaps equally technically skilled has, you know, a middling size audience? And the only answer that I can come up with is, is really your superpower, which is this capacity for bringing people along and the

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  story, the, the humanizing storytelling aspect of it by, you know, capturing these austere environments and translating the meaning of that through, you know, your emotional landscape in a way that connects with people that makes them feel like, you know, as I said at the outset, like I feel connected to you because of your ability to storytell in that way.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  And that means a lot. I, and I appreciate that. And I would just say that with that, like I aim I've realized early on in my career that I really prided myself on trying to document experiences, sports, places, locations that felt approachable, that felt accessible. And yeah, occasionally I'll shoot somebody, you know, highlining through an eclipse or a moon or something just off, you know, crazy. But for the most part, like, I'm just a, you know, five, eight, short dude with, with no athletic background who gave the time and commitment to something and did it. And I want people to realize that absolutely I am not the most technically sound photographer. Absolutely, I'm not the most creative. I'm

• 1:42:57Speaker 01

  just the person stupid enough to commit themselves to something enough to see it through. And I think that's always been my strength and that's always been my goal. And I want others to understand that if they come from an impoverished situation, they come from an unlikely situation. And if they're willing to work for it, they can get, they can, they can be in the situation. And I think that's kind of been something I've prided myself on is trying to tell stories that feel approachable, trying to tell stories that feel real. And with this bike ride, again, it's like, that's a real and or approachable story that that people can relate to. And whether they want to be in that situation or they just want to root along the sidelines, like, that's a really awesome experience to share with somebody. The vulnerability of, of how we present ourselves online is, I

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  think, so important for people to understand and relate to. And I've really tried to put emphasis on what I say as much as what I share visually. That being said, you know, we're in this day and age where it's so easy to just strip some beautiful quote off the internet or tell people that the mountains are calling and they must go. And really, that means nothing. Like, this is the place you make your own quotes, the books, the films, the social media, what have you. This is the place where you tell people what it felt like to be there. Because to be honest, You only do people a disservice by describing what they can see in the photo. You have eyes, this is a visual platform, you have to engage with it visually.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  I don't need to tell people that it's cold and the person's surfing in cold water and there's mountains. And guess what? We're in Norway. I need to tell you the visceral experience of what it felt like to be there because that's all I can offer. Because as a photographer, as a storyteller, what did it feel like for the snow to hit the back of my neck? What did it feel like to feel the crunch of it under my feet? What did it feel like to push the trigger of the camera? What did it feel like to, you know, to document this moment and why? And so I think that in many ways, those are the questions I'm seeking. And whenever I'm doing any, like, again, whether it's taking a picture, whether it's making a film or speaking or riding a bike, like, I want to share those things because that's, I think, what people will connect to.

• 1:45:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's such an important point, that there is a thought process and a methodology and a deconstruction of how to tell a good story that you just kind of walked us through that is in contrast to, you know, the words like, you know, authenticity and vulnerability. Like, they've been thrown around so much that they've been drained of all their meaning. And we're seeing a lot of, I've said this before, but like, a lot of, you know, performative authenticity online, which is the antithesis of authenticity itself. And I think it's leaving people confused about what authenticity truly is because it's been co-opted by, you know, kind of capitalistic forces. Oh, like, if you're authentic, then you can, like, get an audience.

• 1:45:47Rich Roll?

  And so there's all this weirdness online right now, which is very different from stripping, you know, these experiences down to their true meaning and really, like, searching inward for the words or the lessons or what it is that you want to communicate about the interior experience of these, these travels that you go on that is truly connected.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  When you know that it's a privilege to go there, when you know that it's a blessing to go there, when you know that you've been given and dealt a hand that, that feels at times surreal, I feel indebted to share that. I felt indebted to come back to my mom and share those experiences with her because she never went anywhere. She never traveled outside the US until she went with me. 30 years later. So I've always felt that debt to share these experiences because I know that, yeah, I worked for it. And yeah, it was hard and yada, yada, yada. But ultimately, it is a privilege and I feel grateful to be able to do this. And I feel like that's

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  a huge part of the story is being able to bring this to the masses. Whether they can relate to it or not, I'm not sure, but I'm doing my darnedest to hope that they can. I'm doing my darnedest to hope that that people through my struggle or my experience of raising kids or heck, raising alpacas or whatever that is, can understand that like, there's a realness there. And I just, I think there's just, yeah, again, there's a bit too much of the opposite, kind of the fake, fake news that we get online. It's challenging.

• 1:47:20Rich Roll?

  One of the things that you talked about with Chase that I thought was interesting was this importance of kind of having a mission statement or a vision for your life. Like, if you don't have that, how are you anchoring your behavior and your activities? How do you know how to move forward in the right way? So talk to me a little bit about how you think about creativity and how you kind of plot your moves, you know, along this career path.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a, that's a really good question. And I'll just be the first one to say this took me a long time to figure out. Like, again, that the beginning of that career was all, you know, stamps in the passport and collect a paycheck. And then, again, all of a sudden, you're, you're spending enough time in these places and you're like, there's something more here. There's gotta be something more. And, and searching for a path, like, you can't see the forest, the trees, if you're just kind of like constantly going, oh, well, this seems like a good idea. Well, this seems like a good idea. So what roots you in a sense of knowing when to say no, to say yes? Like, where does that come from? You have to have a guiding force. And that the book Essentialism by Greg and Kiel

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  was a reinforcement of this. But ultimately, years prior, I kind of came to the conclusion, like, What is my guiding light? And what is my purpose? And ultimately, it should be something you can tell somebody in an elevator so that they understand. And I've always used this example because it's easier to use somebody else's example than my own. But like, young photographers come to me sometimes and they're asking for advice. And the first thing I tell them is I say, well, who do you want to work for? And they tell me the names. And I'm like, okay, well, what do they stand for? And they're kind of like, well, what's their mission statement? And I'll use the example of National Geographic. Like, you want to work for National Geographic? You know, everybody in the room raises their hand. Well, what's their mission statement? And I go, you know, something, something. I'm like, no, it's to inspire people to care about the planet.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Now, everything they do, their film, digital, social, all these properties live underneath that one umbrella. So the sooner you understand that and you align yourself with that, the sooner that you can potentially forge a relationship with them. And so I think for me, I've taken my own advice and that advice to figure out, well, I have this singular focus. And yes, I do a lot of different things, but as long as they all support the overarching goal. And heck, one of those things, these aren't just all altruistic pursuits, right? One of those things can be like, you know, I need to go shoot this tech brands thing because that's going to put food on the table and that's going to provide a great education for my kids. And that is something that's worthy of my time. But I need all these things to feed this greater goal because for me, there's been

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  times in my life where I've chosen to turn down work because it didn't fit with my moral standards or it didn't fit with my values. Or I also didn't think that it was going to in any way push my career in the right path because we're only going to bring back the work that we put out there.

• 1:50:05Rich Roll?

  Hmm. How important, well, I know it's important. Like, what is the role that faith plays in all of this for you?

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an immense, it's an immense role. It's a guiding force, it's a guiding light. And I ultimately feel like so much of what I

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  Of what I am today is based upon my decision to, in many capacities, basically kind of have a faith-based, basically, family and business. And it's been a challenge, too, because I grew up LDS. I converted when I was actually like eight or nine, so I didn't grow up in that church, but I didn't serve a mission. And that was like a huge sense of guilt on my shoulders for many years, mainly because during that period of dissension from my mom and from doing what, you know, they thought was the right thing, I made a lot of stupid choices. And that really sat with me for a long time. And so I'm never going to be the person to tell somebody, you know, what to vote for, what to pray

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  for, who to worship, this and that. I've aimed and hoped that I can steer my career in a way and share my work in a way that it glorifies what I value, which is family and which is God and which is nature and which is people finding the answers to hard questions by being outside. So in this, yeah, and in this now political kind of environment we find ourselves, I can't think of a more important role than trying to make sure that the outdoors are open to everybody, you know, because I've found so much healing there as a young kid. And I've found so many answers there. And I just, the idea that someone can't find that out there, it kills me.

• 1:51:48Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, that was a big thing that Mueller was sharing the other day. And an impetus behind his work with shark preservation, just this idea that like these animals are disappearing and he's got these young daughters and he wants them to be able to experience them the way that he does. And this sense of, you know, impending degradation of the environment. And as somebody who's gone to all these amazing places that are so far off the beaten path, you know, that has to instill in you this call to action to make sure that we protect these places.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  And also kind of a...

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  You know, you get out to the ends of the earth and what you find out there is it's a bit lonely and you kind of have these experiences and it sometimes feels a bit like a burden to bring them back. Like, you know, that sounds like the most pretentious thing you could ever say, but the reality is like, it's hard to bring sometimes these stories or these photos back and, and share just how significant or just how fragile it was, or just, I don't even know, how much plastic you saw on this beach in the middle of absolutely nowhere that's supposed to be the most pristine environment on the planet. It can feel a bit burdensome to like, have that and, and feel like you want to do something, but feel, um, I feel kind of chained. Like you, you just, you don't have the ability.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  And so I think for me, using a platform to share what I've experienced firsthand, it's been a big part of it. And just that's kind of, I think in many ways, why, yeah, I've wanted to.

• 1:53:16Rich Roll?

  What's the craziest place you've ever been to, or the place that kind of surprised you the most?

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  It's not going to be what you think. Um, the place that surprised me the most that I've ever been was a massive trash dump in Nicaragua called La Chireca, which was at one point labeled as one of the seven, like, worst places on the planet because it was a place of child prostitution and families living in these trash dumps. And it was a time in my life where I was looking for answers, kind of before I started searching for cold weather locations. I was watching a lot of James Notways war photographer and studying Salgado and trying to think that maybe I wanted to be a photojournalist because I was feeling, I was feeling very unfulfilled being this surf photographer.

• 1:54:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  Being on these beaches.

• 1:54:10Rich Roll?

  Chasing the tasty waves.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Girls in bikinis and Mai Tais, people are sipping down and I'm just like, in the middle, sitting there, this like, this Mormon kid, like, okay, cool. This is a really great experience. I'm having so much fun. And.

• 1:54:21Rich Roll?

  So like, you know, Rip Curl or Ruka brings you down there, but then you're like, I'm going to go to the trash heap and check that out?

• 1:54:27Speaker 01

  Well, what ended up happening was I, I kind of started to look for opportunities outside of these trips. I went down to Nicaragua to shoot a job for Patagonia with some of their athletes. And I was on, I was on a retainer for Patagonia for a number of years, shooting all their surf team. And it's an amazing experience. I learned so much from Jane Seibert, the, the photo editor there. She was kind of like a. Second mom to me at a time and she really, this is a name, hopefully you hear a future in the future, but like Jimmy Chin, Renan Oz Turk, Keith, all these amazing photographers, Corey Richards, she gave a lot of them their start. Corey Richards, like their first published photo, like was her and she was in many ways like this kind of just another strong woman

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  in my life. And I remember, it's kind of a backstory here, I remember going with her to this conference that she, she and Patagonia sort of nominated me for called Look Between. It was a, it was a festival of emerging photographer talent. It was in the South and it was right by Nick Nichols. He's the famous Nat Geo photographer that shot the photos of the trees where he took like 3,000 images and stitched them all together and did all the Jane Goodall work with the gorillas and, and just, I mean, his work is iconic and he put together with a lot of other photographers, this, this conference for emerging work. And I remember going there and I remember sharing a slideshow with all these emerging

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  photographers, like people who now all have these amazing social media followings and have done all this great work and just feeling so insignificant. Cause I'm there sharing like, oh yeah, here's my book project of the California surf trip and we're going up and down the coast and two white dudes in a van, you. And they're like, oh yeah, here's like the AIDS epidemic and we're, you know, and I'm just like, I just was, I remember leaving feeling proud, but also just internally, and this is just my own issue.

• 1:56:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you're also like a teenager.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. But I remember, but like, I think Jane wanted me to go. She wanted me to see what else was out there. She saw some talent and I'm so grateful for that opportunity she gave me to like, realize what was out there and the stories being told. And she kind of said it without saying it, like you can, you can do more and whatnot. And this is a really like discovery time in my life. Anyway, long story short, I'm on assignment for Patagonia and I go down to Nicaragua and afterwards I was there with a handful of surfers that had been pretty involved with a, a really awesome group called Love, Light and Melody that would go in and spend time with these kids and raise money to create schools in there. And I mean, this place was the most atrocious environment

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  I have ever seen in my entire life. I've never witnessed that kind of poverty. I had never witnessed that kind of sickness. I'd never witnessed what was happening in a place like this, being so sheltered. And I remember going there. And that was the experience that truly, I never felt more powerless. Like, talk about, talk about a career path where you just go home at night and every day you just, like, wanna cry. Like, I could only imagine the work of a lot of these photographers, these photojournalists, they just must be so hardened because, and that's just my perspective.

• 1:57:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have, you have to be. Otherwise, you just would fall apart.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  I left in shambles. I left speechless. I went there hoping that I could document this experience, then in some way, share that. And I went home just realizing, like, I can't do that. And it was so hard because I had these sort of, again, delusions of grandeur. I did a couple of trips. I went to India and I went, and I, and I wanted to document kind of what was happening, social justice issues in the world. And luckily, thank goodness, La Chireca has been since then, cleaned up and relocated. And a lot of these children were taken out of prostitution. And, um, but to be there and to document it and to, uh, some of the images were used to kind of promote, promote what was going on. I just felt so powerless. And I, and that was kind of in the moment that I was like,

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  you know what, I'm gonna set my sights on something, you know, maybe I'm not gonna be going to these tropical beaches. I definitely know that I, me as a person, I just couldn't.

• 1:58:32Rich Roll?

  That's not your lane.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  I just couldn't handle it. Yeah.

• 1:58:35Rich Roll?

  So you have all these images that you've never shared from that experience?

• 1:58:38Speaker 01

  I do. I've shared a couple. It's just hard to share them. It's hard to share kids and, you know, photos of kids in literally underwear who you're like, I don't know if that kid is alive. Like, that is a challenging thing. Um, I came back from that trip. And again, this is so funny because life has such a weird way of forcing you into like, like, I, I, if I, if I would have just gone.

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  On the sort of day to day life, I probably would have just gone home from that trip, put all those images down, not thought about them, kind of put that emotional duress away, and then gone another trip. But I came home and I had a massive medically resistant staph infection growing in my leg and I was forced into bed for 30 days. I had gotten it from Tahiti, the trip before, because again, I was just globe trotting Tahiti, Nicaragua, yada, yada. I came home and what I thought was a spider bite was actually medically resistant staph.

• 1:59:35Rich Roll?

  That's scary.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  And the abscess just started to grow. And I remember being in bed and sitting there and I, and all of a sudden, I'm like, well, now I've got to deal with all this. And so we talked about this internalization, right? Like, I think that in some ways, it's important to realize, why is this happening? Well, this is happening because maybe I need to deal with this and I need to understand. And I think it was in that moment, on that bedrest, where I couldn't move and, you know, red lines are crawling up my leg to my heart, that I was like, okay, what do I want to do with my career? What do I want to do with my life? How do I want to? And I, and I kind of came to that conclusion that, you know, sharing these off the beaten path, beautiful places, the world where you can really, you can really find that joy, and there is a sense of adventure, and it can be scary,

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  that can be valuable. I don't need to totally dismiss that as a career path. And I think that that's ultimately what I ended up settling on. And that's really what set my sights on, I think, cold water exploration.

• 2:00:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's so amazing. Yeah, to, to, to be in that place of, of being forced to slow down, like, as somebody who's always chasing adventure, you know, it's, you're constantly on the move and it never gives you a moment to reflect on why it is that you're doing what you're doing, or what it means, or am I even on the right path?

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  Well, there's that famous quote, like, you know, you're so busy doing what you're doing, did you ever stop to ask if this is the right thing to do? And I was kind of on that path. And, um, and that's a hard thing to swallow. It's a hard pill to swallow when you're, you're fully aware and you become cognizant to the struggle and the strife that's happening out there. And this is right around the time when my wife and I were talking about having our first kid and this and that. And I just couldn't even bear the thought of like, bringing children to the world, knowing there were so many suffering. And I felt, again, like that was a real turning point for me, of just understanding where my voice, voice could best be used, how I could best be a tool to help people.

• 2:01:29Rich Roll?

  So how do you think about?

• 2:01:34Rich Roll?

  Your role as, as you know, kind of a mentor, somebody that young people look to for creative inspiration, like what is the message to the next generation of creators out there?

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, you know, there's so many, to be honest, because there's always, always one liners where I'm like, you need to do this. But kind of to take a step back, when I was in the impetus of my career, I remember reaching out to so many people, so many photographers, people I respected, people I trusted, looking for an internship, an opportunity, someone to learn from, a mentor, and just like so many doors slammed in my face. I became very good at that. And I told myself at one point, I was like, if I ever get to a place of success, I want to make sure that I'm different, that I offer opportunities to teach. And I think that that's been a big part of my career now is like, again, I kind of have my fingers in all these.

• 2:02:22Rich Roll?

  You've got those courses and you've got the Creative Life thing.

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And just like, again, podcasts and sharing, being willing to share. Like, there was a moment, and I mean, I'm sure it's like this with, you know, even with athletics and sports too. Like, there is a moment where like, the best sort of photographer or athlete or whomever was the person who was the most removed, the most cut off, the most protected.

• 2:02:42Rich Roll?

  Mystique.

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was like, you know, early 90s. And nowadays, because of social media, and one of the benefits is like, no, the person who's the most available, the person who's the most real, the person who's the most accessible, that's the person that not only you usually want to connect with, want to follow, but also commercially, the brands want to engage with, the brands want endorsing a product, the brand, you know? So there's value there on many levels. And I've just realized like, hey, I just want to strip away all the ego and be like, this is what I've done, and this is how I've done it, and this was what worked for me. You don't need to do it this way. And I think that one of the key things I realized early on, in terms of that piece of advice, is that you don't need to be good at everything. And that idea that you need to come to the

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  table with a portfolio as a creative, specifically as a photographer, that's like, you know, for example, I shoot weddings and I shoot portraits and I can shoot action sports. And it's like, no, that's, that's not real. Like, you're hired by somebody because you're the best at what you do. And oftentimes, the more of a specialist you are, the better. And I think that, you know, to use my, my good friend Paul Nicklin as an example, like, he's the best at shooting under Antarctic ice. He can shoot beautiful Afghan portraiture, but it's not the assignments he's given. And so he understands that. And I think when you pick that lane and you understand like, this is what I love. Work starts to come pretty easy and it doesn't mean you don't work on other things. You don't process other things. You don't, you don't build that repertoire along the way,

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  but it's important to understand that like, I want to be known or I've wanted when I've worked with magazines, be known for like this skill. Chris can do that. And that's what gave me a really successful career.

• 2:04:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. This idea that in the giving is where you get the most back, right? And I talked about that with, with Chase. Like he was one of the first people in your field to start sharing the, you know, the secrets of photography that was always like protected in the black box and never tell anybody how you do what you do because that's our bread and butter. And if you do that, you're letting the cat out of the bag. And I know a lot of photographers who have a very strained or antagonistic relationship with Instagram. It's like, oh, now everyone's a photographer. You know what I mean? There's a, there's a cynicism around that. But when I look at you, I look at somebody who not only embraced it, but used it as a tool, a teaching tool, a tool for inspiration.

• 2:05:06Rich Roll?

  And also let's not forget like this incredible, you know, branding tool to create this sensibility about who you are and what you stand for that becomes, you know, a commercial asset for you in the long run.

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  And I want to kind of like set the record straight too, for people who have a confusion. Like social media has in so many ways benefited my career because it's allowed me to give my voice to things. But that is the way it operates. I, I was again, for about eight years prior to ever using Facebook, my, my wife is the one who told me to use Facebook. My wife is the one who told me to use Instagram. I was like, I'm never going on there. The reality is that back in the day, so funny to say that, being 34 or whatever, but back in the day, if you were to share a photo on a trip before your editor got it, it would, you'd be fired. Like I remember being on these trips and, and, and sharing these photographs and, and, you know, having this contention with the magazine. The reality is I would go on.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  These assignments, I would go to Russia, for example, I would have this life-changing experience, I'd be in a jail cell, whatever it is, and there'd be thousands of images, and the story that was told was the one from the journalist's perspective, and all of a sudden, there's all these images left over. And I'm like, what about all these stories? What about all these photographs? And I turned to, I think it was WordPress or Blogspot to write a blog. I wrote about the time I flooded $30,000 with the camera gear in Chile, and people would connect with me, and I would talk to them about it, you know, as a cautionary tale of this and that. And it was a side story to the story that came out in Surfline, right? And then I went to Facebook, and I started doing the same thing. And then when Instagram came along, I realized, like, this is just another tool to share my side

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  of the story. And that's what it always has been. Yeah, there are perspectives out there that you'll read in the magazine, or see in the film, or whatever, but to have all these images that, for me, are, again, just big fish on the wall, they're tall tales, right, sort of thing, that I can share with an international audience, that's super powerful. And I try to remind myself of it, when opportunities come, when it's like, you could sell this, and you could do this, and that, like, this is the reason I use this tool. And I feel completely full well, this is why I've found success in that platform, is because it's been that, and I've tried to keep it that way.

• 2:07:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it gives you the freedom to tell, like you said, your version of the story. I didn't even think of it in that context, but when you're on a gig, you're there to serve the journalist's story, not your own story.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  Or the creative director, or the brand, you know, and that's one side. It's usually a good side of the story, because you're helping with creative. But there are things that happen, like, again, Russia, yeah, we got waves, we surfed, it was a cool experience, we're the first to do so, yada, yada, yada. But the life-changing story for me, the one that's going to be significant to people, and the one people are going to remember, is that 24 hours I spent in that jail cell, crying to my wife on the phone, trying to figure out, you know, so those are the things that I aim to write down. And what I've realized is that social media is one place to do that. There are books, there are films, there are places to tell that story. And as a storyteller, the way I filter the world now, as I look at these platforms that are available to me, that I've created, and I

• 2:08:17Speaker 01

  wonder, there's a story to tell, what is the best way to tell it? Like, is it through social media? Is it just in a couple posts, or in a carousel? Is it through a film that I'm going to invest in, or I'm going to seek a partner for? Is it in a book? Again, Iceland's glacial rivers, I've shared photos of Iceland's glacial rivers for six, seven years. But I couldn't put 10,000 words of important research documentation of what's gone on on social media. That's why a book is needed. And I think that being true to that sense of storytelling, you need to look at all of those opportunities that are available to you, and if not, explore them or invest in them, because that's what they've always been to me.

• 2:08:55Rich Roll?

  So what's next for you? You got the film coming out, but you also, you're working on this memoir, right?

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  I am working on a memoir. Oh, my gosh, that's a, that's a touchy subject. Oh, man, my wife is probably cringing, thinking about this, because it's been like, not the vein of our existence, but just such a hard thing to work on. I, to be honest, never wanted to do a memoir. I'm no David Goggins. You know, I don't feel like I have that crazy passion and fire to like, get people like moving, but-

• 2:09:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I don't have to tell you, you're a storyteller. You have a story to tell, and you know how to tell it. It doesn't have to be a David Goggins story.

• 2:09:32Speaker 01

  No, no. But I think it's just, that's, that's my own issue to deal with, right? Is coming to terms with the fact that, that this is something that's important. And I think the only way I've realized that this is valuable is that coming to the end of writing that memoir, and realizing that I dealt with so many self-worth and guilt issues throughout my life, and learning that I didn't need to hold on to those, and that, and, and the conclusions I've came to, and the, the realizations I've came to, if that could help one young kid, girl, boy, girl, whatever, out there, then it's worth it. Then it's worth the months and years of time and effort in collecting these stories. And I think the hard thing

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  is trying to weave my personal story and journey throughout these, these surf trips, and/or explorations, and how they have kind of played a role, supported that, my relationship, you know, and this, and this, and that. And that's sort of where I'm at with it. So it was supposed to come out in fall. Covid happened. It's been pushed to 2021. It's kind of right now, we're in a rewrite situation. We're looking at some new editors to work with to kind of help formulate just a little bit more seamless text. So that's where we're at. It's exciting.

• 2:10:45Rich Roll?

  That's exciting.

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  I'm excited. But I'm just, I'm just nervous. Like, this is your absolute most kernel of truth out there for the world to see. And leave nothing behind. And I think that gives me a little bit of anxiety.

• 2:10:55Rich Roll?

  It's just a deeper exploration of vulnerability.

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 2:10:59Rich Roll?

  And it's interesting that you're consciously aware of how the process of writing it is telling you who you are. Like, there's a healing for yourself in that because you're, it brings up all of these things that you kind of are consciously, this is what I'm just, I'm projecting because this was my experience, but

• 2:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:18Rich Roll?

  You know, it starts to tell you things about yourself that you weren't aware of, and that's kind of a beautiful thing.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're spot on. And maybe the other way to put it is that I'm not ready to do that much therapy to finish the book. So maybe, maybe that's what it is. But we've gotten through it and it's really

• 2:11:36Rich Roll?

  You can do a revised version in a couple of years, you know?

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  It's powerful and I'm grateful and I'm even, I'm even just like humbled that like somebody, a publisher out there cares. Because I'm like, yeah, cool, let's do another surf book. Awesome. And they're like, no, no, no, we want, we want this story. And I'm like, okay. And it's also like, there's private aspects of my life where like, you know, I'm wanting to like, be careful of how I portray people in my life and characters in my life. And there's a lot of like, great people, maybe some not so great people and people I've learned from and experiences I've had. And it's just, you're, you're sort of like, digging up a lot of information and trying to make sure that it all makes sense. And that's a hard process. And I know, I know you know it, so.

• 2:12:18Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, honesty in storytelling doesn't mean that it's a tell-all, right?

• 2:12:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:12:23Rich Roll?

  Those are two different things, right? So it's like, what is the truth in my experience that would be helpful for other people? And how do I, how do I, you know, construct that narrative without hurting other people unnecessarily?

• 2:12:35Speaker 01

  And this is maybe the exact opposite of social media, where I have to come to the conclusion that if people view me at certain chapters of this book, maybe through the whole thing, or in the beginning, as an asshole, that's okay. And you have to come to terms with that. And that's like, a very hard thing to do, to realize like, yeah, like, there are decisions or there are things I've done, or there's whatever that aren't super glamorous. And I think that's just a

• 2:13:03Speaker 01

  It's a really healing thing, but it's also like, yeah, you're putting that out there.

• 2:13:06Rich Roll?

  Well, acknowledging that is, you know, humanizing also. And I think when, you know, listen, a lot of memoirs are sort of, you know, glossy hero stories, but the ones that, that people connect with and that stand the test of time are the ones written by people who have the courage to be vulnerable and share their story with all their warts and all.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:28Rich Roll?

  Basically, you know, I think a good way to close this is just to leave a few thoughts from your experience or some wisdom for the person who's watching or listening, who feels stuck in their life, who, you know, maybe isn't living in their car, but is in, you know, kind of in a rut or feeling like they're on a path where their life doesn't have the meaning or the purpose that they wish that it would have, but they don't really know how to get themselves out of it.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. And in ending with a deep one or hit you with a hard one there. Honestly,

• 2:14:00Rich Roll?

  it's such a Give me the answer.

• 2:14:02Speaker 01

  It's, yeah. Give me the answer. You know, it's such a funny one because I, it's not a matter of if and when you feel misguided in life or you feel that sense of misdirection. It's, it's, it's going to happen, right? And it's a cyclical thing. I mean, I constantly find myself in that. So one of the things I've considered is like, when I'm on a job, when I'm on assignment, when I'm doing what it is, I know is, is, you know, how I, you know, make a living out, I'm giving it 110%, 115%, sometimes maybe even a little more, right? It's ridiculous how, how much I can focus on that work, but the only way I can do that is if, when I'm home or when I have that time for me, that I'm filling up that

• 2:14:43Speaker 01

  well of inspiration. I say it's a well because you're constantly taking buckets out of it, right? For your friends, for this call, for a podcast, for this job, for this ride around Iceland, right? That thing is dry. So when I get home, it's like, what am I doing to fill myself up? What am I doing to? And you know, like, it's as easy as like, I could thrust myself back into work. And that would be the easy thing to do.

• 2:15:06Rich Roll?

  Well, you could also rationalize that as what is required for you to fill the cup.

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But, but the truth is, it's not. It's, it's now, it's learning that, hey, I'm not going to wait for Mercer round two to come around. I'm not going to wait to be thrust in a jail cell. I'm not, I'm gonna, I'm gonna allow for that reflection from that trip. What did I learn from it? You know, I just got back a week ago from riding through Iceland's interior on this crazy, amazing trip with a handful of Canadian cyclists. And I'm still processing that experience and I've been giving myself the time now to process that and digest that and surround myself with people I care about. Only try to take the calls and the things and do the part that I'm, that I'm inspired by.

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  And ultimately, like, give yourself a little grace because you just spent three, four months training and doing this and hyper focused, then you gave everything you had. And now is time to rebuild. So there's a constant cycle of giving and rebuilding. And I, and I've spent years in my life being in a situation where I'm just giving, giving, giving. And I, and I don't mean like, everybody needs to go out there and get a mani-pedi. I'm just saying that at times you might want to consider those things that, that fill you up from a true deep perspective, whether that's faith, whether that's being out in nature, whether that's doing a little meditation, whether that's taking, because for me, it's not photography now. It's not picking up the camera and finding that it's like, I need to kind of get in touch with

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  why I did what I did, process it, so that I can parlay that into the next experience, so that I can have a deep understanding of that experience. So I can really take back the, the feelings of feeling so small and insignificant in that big landscape. And, and how can this help somebody else? And I guess in terms of answering your question of somebody that's, that's looking for, you know, they're in this place of a rut, like, moving towards that place of discomfort. And I don't mean like head on trying to bash your way in to something. I mean, like, moving towards that place of discomfort in your life and dealing with it, because that will open roadblocks that sometimes you didn't even know were there.

• 2:17:16Rich Roll?

  Your relationship with balance strikes me as one of, you know, a pendulum swinging, you know, a wide arc back and forth, right? I'm sure people ask you all the time, like, how do you maintain your work-life balance?

• 2:17:28Speaker 01

  Oh, I love that term.

• 2:17:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you don't really think of it in those terms. It's more about, the way I think of it is, is, you know, how do I live synchronously in alignment with my values? And how can I switch gears from being 100% in one thing to the next? But the idea of balance, like, I mean, if you're, if you're gonna hold me to that definition, like, my life is probably wildly out of balance.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  Worst example ever, right here. I, to be honest, this is a term that I love, and I talk about all the time with, with my wife. It's like, there's no such thing as balance. Because what ends up happening is people come in and they say, hey, Chris, you got married at 21, you have two kids, you have this family life, and then you're traveling for sometimes six to eight months at a time, yada, yada, yada, you know? And how do you find balance? And I'm like, I hate to burst your bubble, but there's no such thing as balance. What we've found is that there is rhythm, and then rhythm is something that oscillates, and sometimes those waves are bigger, and sometimes those waves are more finely tuned,

• 2:18:34Speaker 01

  and they're moving in kind of a pattern that you can, you can like, comprehend. But the truth of the matter is that you're trying to just stay in sync. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to stay in some way on beat, right? And what keeps me on beat is learning how to communicate with my kids and remembering what they need. They need a dad who, even if I'm far away, I can think of them. I can show them I care. Me and my wife have developed a way to do that, so that when I'm in the middle of nowhere, out at the ends of the earth, if I have a sat phone signal, or if I have a cell phone, I can think of the things that they care about or would want to know here, and share that with them. Because when I get home, as a parent, the very worst thing I could ever do is to show up and then them say, Dad, where have you been?

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  Like, again, the process of becoming a better person through traveling doesn't happen when you go there and you get back. It starts before you leave your front door. And so for me, I think of them when I go. I try to not just be 115% focused on work, but I have a little space for them on the road. That rhythm is also found in how my wife and I balance that relationship along the road. Faith does play a role in that. You know, it helps. If anything, that is the saving grace of what's really kept us a family unit. In addition to that, too, learning and finding that there are sometimes just more effective ways to travel. Does that mean staying an extra day in your location to like have a

• 2:20:00Speaker 01

  day to chill out after the 60-person, 100-person crew leaves and you're on some wild shoot? Like, is it better for me to have a day to chill out so that I come home a more grounded person? Does it mean when I come home, I don't go into the office for a day or two or three or four? Does it mean I... There's all these ways to manage it. I think that's kind of one of the real tricks that you sort of have to sort out for yourself. And it's such a challenge because it varies from person to person. And the one thing I want to say, when it comes to balancing these relationships or finding rhythm or whatever, is, you know, I can come back from the most wild, you know, incredible experience in my

• 2:20:43Speaker 01

  life where I've just been shown the most beautiful things and everything was so real and visceral and I, you know, who knows what happened. And I come home to my wife and I'm just like, or any person, any significant other, it doesn't matter, brother, sister, mom, dad, whoever, significant other, boyfriend, girlfriend, and you're just like, oh my gosh, check this out. Let me just dump all this on you because I don't know how to process it. I'm just going to dump all my energy and emotion and all this visceralness that I experienced onto you and that person's like... They're not a trash can, first of all, and they might have been just dealing with the doldrums of daily life. They might have been dealing with the diapers. They might have been dealing with some sickness a family member has. They might have, who knows what they've been going on. So what I've found is that sometimes it requires learning when

• 2:21:28Speaker 01

  to hold back and when to give that amount of excitement and energy and everything that I know I can bring to the table because I can be a fairly excitable person at the right time. And if there's one thing I learned from this process of understanding that beauty that's out in nature, there's a lot of ways to process it. And sometimes just spilling it on to another person isn't the right thing. I try to come home and make sure that the people in my life have had their cups full too, so that when we meet and when there's that time to share and energies can be energies, hate to say that term, but it's evenly matched. What does that mean? It might mean coming home and supporting your kids, your wife,

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  your significant other, and doing something that fills them up. Ultimately, it's making sure that this age-old term of getting outside your comfort zone is happening on all levels. Because if you've just been somewhere where you've, I don't know, seen the face of God, whatever you want to call it, you've been outside your comfort zone and you're a new person, and you come to them, that's grounds for usually an altercation, I've found.

• 2:22:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. You have that enthusiasm and you want to share it, but there's a selfishness with that too. You know, when you're dealing with, oh, that's great, you're off doing that, but I'm here, you know. Like, I don't really want to hear it right now.

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  A lot of arguments are started with those words.

• 2:22:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's almost like the veteran who comes back from a tour, you know, there's that scene Jeremy Renner in that movie, and he's walking down the aisle in the grocery store, and he's just, his eyes are glazed over, and he can't acclimate back to the normal world. There's a unhealthy, kind of addictive, obsessive compulsive relationship with adventure and risk. And I would suspect that that's something that you have to also be consciously aware of, like, is it healthy for me to be doing this? At what point does it tip over into something that is not serving, yeah, like myself or my family?

• 2:23:30Speaker 01

  And I think I just had that experience a week ago when I was in Iceland. I was one of the only Americans there because I got a permit to go. And there's no masks and everybody's tested and during the duration of our trip, there was no COVID. It was like, I was just like-

• 2:23:44Rich Roll?

  You're about as socially distant as a human being could possibly be.

• 2:23:48Speaker 01

  It was the weirdest, it was the weirdest thing. Cause I'm like, for a glimpse, I would wake up in the morning and forget that it existed. And I felt selfish. It felt bad. And I was like, oh my gosh, like, and I realized in some way, like, the only way maybe I can justify this is to ultimately make sure I'm sharing this experience to other people so that they know what life is like. And when I started getting those messages, like, from people who were like, oh, I'm still in quarantine, but watching your stories every day has given me some sense of relief. I'm like, I feel so grateful because I'm not going to not share. I'm not going to not give them, because these updates I give are as much for my own family as for everybody else. And so to know that, like, there's that hope out there and that the world can return to normalcy, it just, it's a challenging

• 2:24:30Speaker 01

  thing. But ultimately coming home and realizing like, wow, California's on fire and we're wearing masks and that. It was, it was a little bit of a shock. Felt definitely like, seeing a Jeremy Renner, I've, I've related to that on many, many levels. Yeah.

• 2:24:43Rich Roll?

  Cool, man. Well, I think that's a good place to put a pin in it for now. And I say, put a pin in it because I want to continue this conversation with you. We could go down the rabbit hole just on your latest adventure, among many other things. So-

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  I just, I'll process it and then we'll, we'll chat about it.

• 2:24:57Rich Roll?

  Whether it's up on stage at the Palace of Fine Arts or sitting across from me, whatever, whatever, whatever the world has in mind for us. But I look forward to it.

• 2:25:06Speaker 01

  Our history will continue.

• 2:25:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I appreciate you. You inspire me. You, obviously you inspire millions of people, but I really, I respect your, your arts and what you share with the world. But mostly I respect how you conduct yourself as a human being and, and I appreciate you. And I just thank you for sharing so openly and honestly today.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was an honor, truly. I'm so grateful.

• 2:25:30Rich Roll?

  Look forward to the memoir, whenever that's gonna be done. The movie streaming, where can people check that out when it goes-

• 2:25:40Speaker 01

  It's actually gonna be available to the public in October, but we're doing a live kind of streaming date on September 22nd, I believe. You can find all the info on my- Social media channels, I'm just gonna basically be doing a sort of a meet and greet online digitally with the filmmaker and sort of a questionnaire about the filmmaking process and how we made it and everything. So yeah, just catch up on social media. It's a really meaningful story and I really hope you get to experience it.

• 2:26:08Rich Roll?

  Unur, how do you say it again?

• 2:26:09Speaker 01

  Unur, yeah. Yeah, you kind of have like that guttural, like, it's a, so Unur is the name of the daughter.

• 2:26:14Rich Roll?

  Have you learned the language?

• 2:26:15Speaker 01

  I've learned how to enunciate. Like, I can say like, you know,

• 2:26:18Rich Roll?

  The English version.

• 2:26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, but it's honestly, it's close to Spanish because there's a lot of rolling of Rs and things like that. It's a guttural language. It's hard to learn.

• 2:26:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you sound good doing it.

• 2:26:30Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 2:26:32Rich Roll?

  Chris Burkard, easy to find on the internet. Just Google him, @ChrisBurkhart everywhere. Find him on Instagram. And until we meet again, my friend. Thank you. Peace.

• 2:26:40Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 2:26:44Rich Roll?

  What a beautiful, compelling human that Chris Burkard is, right? It's hard to imagine that he's only 32. He's got so much wisdom to share. I just love that. Hope you did as well. Odds are, you already follow him on Instagram and Twitter, but in case not, check him out ASAP, @ChrisBurkhart, B U R K A R D. Be sure to check out his new doc, Unar, on YouTube, linked up in the show notes, which you can find alongside a ton of other resources to dive deeper into the Burkhart mindset and sensibility on the episode page at, you guessed it, richroll.com. We also got another roll-on AMA coming up in the forthcoming week. Yeah, we're doing one next week. Give me a call at 424-235-4626.

• 2:27:29Rich Roll?

  Leave me a message with your question and we might just answer it on the next edition. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the podcast, subscribe, rate and comment on the show on Apple Podcasts. Hit that subscribe button on YouTube and on Spotify for you Android users. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. I appreciate my team that works very hard, week in, week out. The production team behind today's episode. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing and editing today's podcast. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Ally Rogers, who took some really gorgeous portraits of Chris for today's episode.

• 2:28:13Rich Roll?

  DK, always coming through with the advertiser relationships and theme music by my boys, Tyler Trapper and Hari. Appreciate you guys. Thank you for all the love. I will see you back here next week with another amazing episode. We have so many good conversations in the tank, ready to go. Can't wait to share them. Peace. Plans. I'll stay.