The Sonos Disaster, Act Like a Founder, MMA for Brothers, These Guys Have Exits

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Welcome to Technology Brothers, the most profitable podcast in the world. Today, we're doing a deep dive on Sonos. We're trying to get back into the technology side of the Brotherhood. We are still displaced. We're still in Santa Barbara. We've upgraded our chairs today. Hopefully, it's a little bit better for you guys. But you know it's bad at Sonos when they bring out Mark Gurman. Are you familiar with Mark Gurman?

• 0:23Jordi Hays?

  Tell me about Mark.

• 0:24John Coogan?

  So he's like the Apple correspondent. He gets all the best leaks. Like when you hear like, oh, new iPhones coming out. Like, he's the guy you go to at Bloomberg. So there's been two articles previously, I'll give you one of these two. Two articles previously on Sonos and the chaos of the company started in August 22, August 22, 2024. Sonos app leaves company racing to save its reputation. And this was by Dave Lee. I'm sure he's a great journalist at Bloomberg. Everyone at Bloomberg is great. But he's not Mark Gurman big. And then on September 23, Dave Lee follows up with how Sonos botched an app and infuriated its customers.

• 1:08John Coogan?

  And so, you know, this is, this is like, you know, some, some rough reporting. But then they bring out the big guns, Mark Gurman, because the CEO was fired. And so let's start with what happened. They'll take you through a little bit of the history of Sonos and explain how they got here, because there are some cool things about this company. We both use the product. I both, I've loved it at times, and more recently, I've hated it. So.

• 1:32Jordi Hays?

  It's, it's really cool in the off chance that it's working. But we'll get into that later.

• 1:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's kind of like a lightning striking twice situation when Sonos worked properly. It's been so bad recently.

• 1:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:48John Coogan?

  Just degraded, degraded. And, and yeah, it's a fascinating story. So let's read through a little bit of this first report from Dave Lee in Bloomberg. He says, "Sonos has a loyal user base for its high-end audio speakers. Unfortunately, a disastrous software launch has angered customers and jeopardized the company's reputation, and the window to fix the problem is closing rapidly. The release in May of a new app that controls the speakers was meant to have been the company's, the culmination of Chief Executive Officer Patrick Spence's grand plan to refresh the company's infrastructure and expand into a greater share of the $100 billion audio market." Of which it estimates it controls less than 2%. Uh, the existing Sonos app was struggling to handle all, all the demands of the modern day

• 2:31John Coogan?

  audiophile who wants to listen to sound from various sources, both local and in the cloud across multiple devices and rooms. Spence said, "Performance and reliability, reliability, reliability issues had crept in over time." "The new app was flawed though, sound drops in and out, devices disappear. My push for speed backfired," Spence said. "In a business like Specialist Audio Trust can be extremely hard to win back." Case in point, Jordy will never buy another Sonos speaker in his life, probably won't either. On Tuesday, the former BlackBerry executive threw himself into

• 3:07Jordi Hays?

  This just turns into an MKBHD, just scathing, scathing review. Yeah, I mean, I, I'll, I'll go out, uh, I'll, I'll preface some of this by saying, cause I, you know, the only few words I've gotten in so far were, were dunking. Uh, we don't like to dunk. I, in this situation, I felt like it was fair because I've, some of my worst experiences with consumer electronics have been with, with, uh, my dear Sonos.

• 3:32John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:32Jordi Hays?

  But at the same time, Santa Barbara company, I went to school in Santa Barbara.

• 3:37John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:38Jordi Hays?

  I, I know they're doing their best. Uh, there are some great moments with Sonos. They do sound good when they're running. It's really the setup.

• 3:48John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:48Jordi Hays?

  That is so, uh, so devastatingly difficult.

• 3:52John Coogan?

  It was, it was magical at first, like my first Sonos setup was I had a TV and an Apple TV plugged into it. And are you familiar with HDMI CEC?

• 4:02Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 4:03John Coogan?

  It's a specific protocol over the HDMI cable that allows you to control the device. Uh, like you can control a TV from the Apple TV. So

• 4:12Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 4:13John Coogan?

  I was able to wire it so that the Sonos went into the, to the TV and the Apple TV controlled the actual TV.

• 4:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 4:20John Coogan?

  And so with just one Apple TV remote, I could push a button and it would turn it on and the audio would work and it'd be surround sound.

• 4:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 4:26John Coogan?

  And it was just like flawless.

• 4:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 4:28John Coogan?

  And then, and then

• 4:29Jordi Hays?

  I think

• 4:29John Coogan?

  Added on to that, I could also like choose to play Spotify over it and that was great.

• 4:33Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think they almost could have taken the route as being more. Like encouraging people to hire a Sonos expert to set up the product.

• 4:44John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 4:44Jordi Hays?

  Because when I think about it, every single time I'd be setting up a Sonos device, I'm thinking, I just wish I could pay somebody to do it.

• 4:52John Coogan?

  To do it, yeah.

• 4:53Jordi Hays?

  You know, and there are people that will do it.

• 4:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Jordi Hays?

  People that do smart home stuff.

• 4:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:56Jordi Hays?

  But it's not, they make it seem like, hey, you can just set up this app.

• 5:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Jordi Hays?

  It's easy. And it's crazy because I don't know, the last time I did it was, um, Arly was, uh, opening up their new,

• 5:09John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:10Jordi Hays?

  Their new showroom in Beverly Hills and I, you know, I go over there, I'm trying to be helpful. I'm like, okay, like I'll, I'll set up, I'll get the audio working in the Sonos. And it ended up being like, you know,

• 5:19John Coogan?

  Disaster.

• 5:20Jordi Hays?

  A 90 minute, you know, sort of setup where I'm,

• 5:23John Coogan?

  It has this thing where you're like,

• 5:24Jordi Hays?

  Really wanting to slam the Sonos against the wall. And I, I'm a pretty patient.

• 5:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:29Jordi Hays?

  Person.

• 5:30John Coogan?

  During the setup, they have this thing where like you put it in pairing mode and it's supposed to show up on the wifi and it talks. And sometimes it gets it perfect and when it works perfectly, it's amazing. And then other times it'll just be like, hey, like we're not finding it on the wifi. Like, would you mind like connecting it to the main Sonos via an ethernet cable? And it's like, no, I don't have a 20 foot ethernet cable on me right now, bro. Like this is so unacceptable. And the main thing is just like, the app got so slow. But the crazy thing is that like, I heard about this, obviously, like this all started this in 2024, last year. And the saga was kind of like a very bad last year. But even just a few years ago, they had such a bad app launch that they needed to deprecate their first app.

• 6:13John Coogan?

  Like, most of the time it's like, oh, Instagram launches reels. Like you don't, you don't have like two Instagram apps on your phone.

• 6:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 6:20John Coogan?

  Instagram just updates, right? And that wasn't what Sonos did. They literally have the S1 app and then the Sonos app. And the S1 app is for older systems and so.

• 6:30Jordi Hays?

  Here's the thing, Sonos should have gone through YC. As a public company, they'd be like, look, like we, we really haven't figured, we don't have this figured out. We don't know what people want.

• 6:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:40Jordi Hays?

  We need, we need, we need to help simplifying.

• 6:43John Coogan?

  You know what the narrative violation here with Sonos is, is that? Everyone, everyone says like hardware is hard. You can't build hardware as an American company like DJI is crushing. But what did Sonos get right? Like I'm not a super crazy audio file. I'm sure there's audio files that will say, oh, Sonos doesn't actually sound that good. But to me, it sounds fine. It sounds nice. And industrial design, I think it looks fine. I think it looks good. You put it on the wall or you put it in the house. I think it looks nice. I think it's high quality. The actual hardware's never broken on me. I've never had a speaker like actually just break or anything.

• 7:17Jordi Hays?

  No, it is reliable. Physical hardware.

• 7:19John Coogan?

  It's reliable, totally.

• 7:21Jordi Hays?

  Funny because it's just the software.

• 7:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and that's the narrative is normally it's like America is great at software. We have great B to B software. We're on the frontier of AI software, but we're lagging in hardware. And with this, it's like Sonos delivered on the hardware side. They did the hard part and then they just couldn't get the app to work, which is crazy.

• 7:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, one, one cool note, they were actually, when they were incorporated, they incorporated as Rincon Audio.

• 7:44John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 7:45Jordi Hays?

  Rincon, I don't know if you know, is the, um, is the most iconic surf spot in Santa Barbara.

• 7:51John Coogan?

  Oh, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:53Jordi Hays?

  Assuming these guys were spending more time surfing than developing the software. Once, especially in the later, in the later, in the later, uh, period. It is interesting to compare this. So tying this to something like Andorol, which is making hardware and software for our military. It's hard enough to make speakers.

• 8:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:16Jordi Hays?

  That you just plug into a wall, connect to your wifi and then just want to play music. That is difficult to do.

• 8:23John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 8:23Jordi Hays?

  And that puts into the context how difficult it is for Andorol to put hardware devices tied to their software into war zones that have electronic warfare happening. New environments. Bullets flying, bombs, bombs going off, enemies like trying to kill you. And so. And sure, you know, the, the, every military contractor, you know, puts stuff in the field and has issues with it and they try to improve it. But it just goes to show, um, you know, how hard a lot of these new defense tech founders that are coming in and saying, Sonos is a public company with 12 offices, a bunch of retail stores, hundreds of employees, billions of dollars in revenue,

• 9:03Jordi Hays?

  and they can't even get their speakers to reliably work in their home without pissing off consumers, right? And it's fine for us consumers where I'm like, well, I have dinner guests coming over and I just want to play music. But if you're like trying to operate like an Androld drone in the field, like that soldier like doesn't have another life. If you fuck it up, right?

• 9:24John Coogan?

  I would imagine the culture has just got to be way different, though. You know, Androld's like hardcore.

• 9:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's a different level of seriousness.

• 9:30John Coogan?

  Yeah, with this, it's like, it's a 20-year-old company, it's in Santa Barbara, a little bit more casual, not, no longer founder mode because the founder stepped down.

• 9:38Jordi Hays?

  Uh, yeah.

• 9:39John Coogan?

  And maybe that's part of the problem. Do you want to get one of the early deep dives?

• 9:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so credit, credit to them, you know, the, the areas where they, I think they've done well. Uh, they were early, 2002.

• 9:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:50Jordi Hays?

  Like early to be doing a smart home audio system. Uh, and the design has always been great and the heart and, and the, we talked about it, but the sort of physical reliability of, of the actual devices.

• 10:06John Coogan?

  Do you know, uh, the story of what the guy did before? So the founder is John McFarland, um, and now they do over a billion dollars a year in business. Um, and the company was founded back in 2002, when most people were listening to music on CDs. At that time, music streaming was barely a thing. There was Rhapsody, but very few people used it. If you wanted surround sound in your house, you had to wire it up and drill into your walls and connect the speakers. It was expensive, like getting a nice sound system in your house is a hundred K. And with Sonos, you could start building a collection with like a $300 speaker, a thousand dollar soundbar. And for like 5K all in, you'd have like a really solid setup.

• 10:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 10:44John Coogan?

  Um, but before he, I, I don't know where it is, but before he started this, he owned software.com.

• 10:53Jordi Hays?

  Let's go.

• 10:54John Coogan?

  Isn't that a great domain? And that company had gone public in 1999 and they merged with phone.com.

• 11:03Jordi Hays?

  Let's go.

• 11:04John Coogan?

  Isn't that amazing? Let's. To become openware, a major early player in mobile email. When the DOPCON crash hit, they left and decided to start something new. Their insight was that wireless networking was the next major wave. After dismissing an idea to do in-flight wireless, they founded, they focused on multi-room audio, seeing the rise of MP3s and Napster. People were starting to put Wi-Fi in their homes, so the founders wanted to leverage that to play digital music seamlessly in every room.

• 11:29Jordi Hays?

  We gotta do a deep dive on the merger between phone.com and software.com.

• 11:33John Coogan?

  Amazing, amazing.

• 11:35Jordi Hays?

  One of the most iconic, two of the most iconic domains of all time.

• 11:39John Coogan?

  It's incredible.

• 11:40Jordi Hays?

  Which, which, which, at the time, at the time, if I was investing in that, in the, in the combined company, I'd be looking at it and saying, all right, well, software.com, $10 million domain minimum. Phone.com, I give it almost 10, too. So between the two of them, look, it's a $20 million company.

• 11:58John Coogan?

  I'm sure it was trading at like 2 billion.

• 12:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's trading at 2.

• 12:01John Coogan?

  And they probably had nothing under the hood. It would have been extremely hard to do the TB Award for Domain Acquisition of the Year during, in like 1999.

• 12:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, because there was just.

• 12:09John Coogan?

  We should do a flashback.

• 12:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:11John Coogan?

  The, the greatest domain acquisition of 1999.

• 12:13Jordi Hays?

  We should dress up as like.

• 12:14John Coogan?

  It's just so narrow.

• 12:16Jordi Hays?

  Fathers, you know, with wigs.

• 12:18John Coogan?

  I mean, I think we've talked about MP3.com. They went public with just the domain and the business plan, no software written.

• 12:23Jordi Hays?

  That's so crazy.

• 12:24John Coogan?

  $100 million, crazy.

• 12:26Jordi Hays?

  One, one iconic, jumping ahead a little bit, one iconic moment in Sonos' history is when they decided to partner with IKEA.

• 12:34John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 12:35Jordi Hays?

  The other consumer product company that makes people want to kill themselves during setup.

• 12:43Jordi Hays?

  Really an incredible.

• 12:43John Coogan?

  Restoration hardware.

• 12:45Jordi Hays?

  It's, it's, uh, IKEA and Sonos announced a collaboration to build Sonos' technology into furniture sold by IKEA. So you, you, after four hours, you've got, you've got this, you know, like desk set up. And then, and the real task begins. You're all warmed up and now you gotta set up the smart speaker.

• 13:01John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's really funny. Uh, I didn't know this, but they, they used this like super famous branding firm to come up with the name, Lexicon Branding, uh, and Lexicon had come up with the name Pention Swiffer.

• 13:15Jordi Hays?

  We talked to them briefly about naming the podcast, right?

• 13:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:20Jordi Hays?

  We ended up with, they wanted like a few hundred grand. We ended up going with someone more expensive.

• 13:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Jordi Hays?

  It ended up being worth it.

• 13:26John Coogan?

  Yeah. Pentium, Swiffer, BlackBerry, PowerBook, and Zune. Sonos is a palindrome and part of the logo design can be flipped or turned sideways. Still reading Sonos.

• 13:37Jordi Hays?

  Naming agencies have to be like the best, the best business models.

• 13:42John Coogan?

  Incredible.

• 13:43Jordi Hays?

  Because after you get a couple of bangers like BlackBerry and stuff like that, it's just like, yeah, we'll name your company.

• 13:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Jordi Hays?

  It's, you know, it's under, you know.

• 13:51John Coogan?

  It's probably a billion dollars.

• 13:52Jordi Hays?

  It's gonna be like a million dollars. It's gonna take 12 months and then it's just, and then it's just a group like us being like, hmm.

• 13:58John Coogan?

  You know that there's a, there's like a whole separate industry of like naming firms just for pharmaceuticals? You know, you always, because like you, you always hear these names like Ozempic and it's like, it sounds like, it sounds like an English word, but it doesn't trace its roots from anything. Like where does it come from? And I was, I was trying to get L L Ms to kind of like create more drug names and it was really hard. Like it is like somewhat of an intractable problem that like you need, you need just a, some sort of human to come up.

• 14:27Jordi Hays?

  The names matter a lot.

• 14:29John Coogan?

  But, but the Sonos name is incredible. And I remember first, the first time I flipped the speaker over and the, and the palindrome, like it's, the logo reads correctly, whether you mount the speaker like this or like this, upside down, which is actually an amazing feature for a speaker to be mounted.

• 14:43Jordi Hays?

  I wonder if it still reads correctly if you throw it off a far 20 story building.

• 14:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, it shatters into a million pieces. Can you still hear it? I think people know, like, because they're just like, oh, it's a smashed speaker. It must be a Sonos. Who frustrates its owner?

• 14:58John Coogan?

  You gotta, you gotta calm down with all the robot abuse because when, when the robots rise up, they're gonna be like, this guy's like a serial killer.

• 15:04Jordi Hays?

  No, I respect robots. I'm trying to give them guns. I'm trying to give them ARs. We're, we're working on this.

• 15:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:10Jordi Hays?

  You know, you have a, you have a call.

• 15:11John Coogan?

  In the robot apocalypse, a Sonos speaker will be like the lowest caste.

• 15:15Jordi Hays?

  Have you seen the guy on, on Instagram that I sent you these? He's got Chat G P T hooked up to his.

• 15:20John Coogan?

  Going there, so.

• 15:21Jordi Hays?

  I'm talking to him in like two hours. If you want to jump on.

• 15:25Jordi Hays?

  It's gonna be great.

• 15:26John Coogan?

  That's great. Um, let's go through some other stuff. Uh, I mean, for a long time, they were doing really well. Ninety-three percent of Sonos speakers that sold in the last 13 years are active today. So people just mount them and then they just stay forever.

• 15:39Jordi Hays?

  Active.

• 15:40John Coogan?

  Not for long, given how bad the app is. It's so bad.

• 15:44Jordi Hays?

  Active.

• 15:45John Coogan?

  And they're boasting like, oh, we still, we still do over the air updates for products even from 2005. And it's like, yeah, but those work with a different app, bro. Like, come on.

• 15:54Jordi Hays?

  It's interesting. Normally, when you, when, uh, hardware companies, the real concern is that you ship, you ship hardware that ends up being malfunctioning and then you have all this hardware that needs to be replaced.

• 16:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Jordi Hays?

  And so it's interesting that their problems seem to be just totally opposite of what the typical concern is for hardware founders. Software is always like, oh, that's easy. We'll just ship updates and fix it.

• 16:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Jordi Hays?

  But.

• 16:22John Coogan?

  This is a fascinating little timeline. So, uh, 2002, they incorporate, they changed their name, they were Ringcon. They changed their name to Sonos in 2004. So these guys clearly made money in the dot com boom because they're just like, they haven't really raised that much money.

• 16:36Jordi Hays?

  They're throwing cash.

• 16:37John Coogan?

  For a couple of years. Uh, but then they, they launched their first prototype, which is just, it, it actually links into existing speakers. So they weren't even making speakers. It was just an amp that then would connect to like whatever speakers you had.

• 16:49Jordi Hays?

  That's cool.

• 16:49John Coogan?

  And, and that still exists. And that, and that's very cool. If you have a, if you have a speaker system, you can just plug in the Sonos thing, or at least it used to be before the app went to shit, but, uh, so it went pretty well. Walt Mossberg, uh, called it easily the best music streaming product. He had tested, it cost 1,200 bucks. It was expensive. Sales were slow, uh, but they kept iterating. In 2006, they added support for Rhapsody. 2007, the iPhone arrived. Before that, you had to have like a dedicated Sonos controller, which was like a good, really low budget iPad, basically. It was cool, but it was like really junky. It was like a universal remote. Like it's gonna be crappy. Um, so they launched the iPhone controller app in 2008, instead of their hardware controller, much better Android app in 2011, three years later.

• 17:34John Coogan?

  Wow. Really disrespectful. I guess Android was pretty new. And then by 2012, they phased out their own controller altogether. In 2009, they released the Play 5, the S5, which is their standalone wireless speaker. This was 400 bucks, and that was in the more mainstream market. And then by 2010, they raised 25 million from Index, and they launched the Play 3 at 299. So they're really going down market, and this is when everyone started buying these things. They integrated Spotify. And in 2012, KKR led 135 million dollars.

• 18:07Jordi Hays?

  And Redpoint. Redpoint.

• 18:10Jordi Hays?

  Shout out to Logan. I, another streaming service they integrated with that that does make sense is they integrated with Mog. M O G.

• 18:19John Coogan?

  What's that? Is this real?

• 18:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, no, it's real. They partnered with over 100 streaming services, but Mog is interesting to me because the Sonos mogs the users so are in the setup that it's just a match. It's a perfect match, so I can see why they would partner there.

• 18:34John Coogan?

  Okay, you imagine you've gone Mog and it's all just like Sigma Male theme songs. They do do do.

• 18:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 18:42John Coogan?

  Like that, like, it's all, it's all funk and and drift core. Everything's slow.

• 18:49Jordi Hays?

  Honestly, though, but it's, they, you know, in 2012,

• 18:55Jordi Hays?

  they set up, this was around, around the same time they did the KKR round. They set up a, like, an entire Sonos studio, which was like, pretty cool and groundbreaking for a consumer electronics company. They had an art gallery. They would host different artists, Solange, Lonely Island, Beck, things like that. But to me, it's way cooler that they work with such an iconic private equity firm like KKR. I mean,

• 19:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:22Jordi Hays?

  to, to have KKR buy your equity is the kind of thing that every young man would dream, you know, dreams of.

• 19:31John Coogan?

  That may have been where the idea came from, to cut costs and stop developing software.

• 19:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, totally. I could see them coming in and being like, okay, where are your costs? Well, why don't you cut the CTO, the VP of Engineering, the senior man?

• 19:46John Coogan?

  Every developer.

• 19:47Jordi Hays?

  And every developer, take it offshore. No more H1Bs. We're just cutting everything.

• 19:53John Coogan?

  This is a hilarious anecdote. So when they launched it, All Things D, they, this is what, 2000? 2005? 2000?

• 20:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, 2005, they launch at the All Things D conference. This was before Apple had announced the iPhone, before Apple had those like major keynotes.

• 20:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they were so early. You gotta get.

• 20:16John Coogan?

  So early.

• 20:19Jordi Hays?

  Even though they're net, they haven't been early to getting their net income pause there.

• 20:26Jordi Hays?

  They've been a little late on that.

• 20:30John Coogan?

  But so, so, so Steve Jobs is at the All Things D conference and he introduced the Apple Airport Express, which is the Wi-Fi router that Apple designed and.

• 20:39Jordi Hays?

  They still had good, they still had good names back then.

• 20:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:42Jordi Hays?

  They got the Apple TV, the Apple TV, the Apple TV Plus, Apple TV Plus app on Apple TV.

• 20:49John Coogan?

  They made Apple TV Plus shows within Apple TV.

• 20:51Jordi Hays?

  Yes, yes.

• 20:53John Coogan?

  So bad. But at that conference, so Steve Jobs is, is announcing the Wi-Fi router. And then John, John McFarlane is announcing the Sonos amplifier, connected amplifier. And it's like a match made in heaven. Like you should go buy both of those because they're both gonna work really well. And, but Steve Jobs is super pissed and he goes up to John at the conference. He walked up, pounded on my chest and said they'd sue us out of existence. I pushed because.

• 21:26Jordi Hays?

  Wait.

• 21:26John Coogan?

  So Steve Jobs goes up to John, the founder of Sonos, John McFarlane, founder of Sonos. And basically the Sonos, the control app to control like what music was playing where. Once you hook up the amplifier, it had a scroll wheel that was like derivative from the iPhone or from the iPod. Remember the iPod scroll wheel?

• 21:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 21:45John Coogan?

  So, so they'd use that same design element and Steve was like, you stole that from us. And so he walks up to him, pounds him on the chest and says, I'll sue you out of existence. And John pushes back, pointing out that we had no overlap with their patents. He checked, Steve Jobs checked, realized we were in the clear and the relationship improved after that.

• 22:07Jordi Hays?

  That's cool.

• 22:08John Coogan?

  But I like that Steve Jobs just walks up to him and he's just like, I haven't checked the patents, but you're wrong.

• 22:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's funny. It's funny because it would have been great for consumers in so many ways if Apple had acquired Sonos.

• 22:18John Coogan?

  A hundred.

• 22:19Jordi Hays?

  Because Apple. Is the best in the world at making it seamless to set up a device.

• 22:24John Coogan?

  Yeah, and software integration.

• 22:25Jordi Hays?

  It's gotten so, so, so.

• 22:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Jordi Hays?

  Good.

• 22:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Jordi Hays?

  I need to go buy a new iPhone at some point this week and I'm not even worried about it. I'm going to get in and out of the Apple Store and like, you know.

• 22:36John Coogan?

  I mean, they eventually launched a competitor, so they launched AirPlay 2, which had so much functionality and then they've launched the, uh, the HomePod and the HomePod 2.

• 22:46Jordi Hays?

  It is, it's such an interesting miss because they had so much legacy as a company in music.

• 22:53John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 22:53Jordi Hays?

  So many iconic campaigns. It would have been, it would have made sense for Apple to, like, I wish I could have Apple speakers on my desk, like, next to my monitor.

• 23:02John Coogan?

  Of course, used to be able to.

• 23:03Jordi Hays?

  And, um, it does seem, again, it wouldn't have been a huge business line for them, but they probably, it's a hundred billion dollar annual revenue.

• 23:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:12Jordi Hays?

  Opportunity and Apple could have probably gotten 20% of that or 10, 10% of that at least. So it wouldn't have been as big as AirPods.

• 23:21John Coogan?

  So Patrick Spence.

• 23:22Jordi Hays?

  When did all the, like, we should get into the, let's get into the drama.

• 23:26John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 23:27Jordi Hays?

  You know, the stuff with Google and there was quite a bit with Amazon as well, was there not?

• 23:31John Coogan?

  Uh, I don't, I'm not sure. So Patrick Spence, the CEO who was just fired, uh, he joined from BlackBerry in 2012. I know, I know. It really writes itself. But he was there for over a decade and I guess did pretty well, um, until.

• 23:47Jordi Hays?

  What's the status? What's the status of BlackBerry right now?

• 23:50John Coogan?

  And so, yeah, I mean, the, I, I think the drama that you're alluding to is that, uh, Amazon, Google and Apple all realized that, well, kind of dumb speakers were not particularly critical to their core business strategy and like their value chain. Once you put the AI assistant in them and you connect them to the internet, then they become an important point.

• 24:14Jordi Hays?

  And I, and I, we, it'd be interesting to understand, I think that.

• 24:19Jordi Hays?

  Amazon what wanted needed to be in the market because they assumed that people would just be walking around their home and be like, hey, Alexa, order more paper towels. And I, I, I had an Alexa and I actually never, I don't have any visceral angry moments with my Alexa. So they did a good job and they did, did well. The sound quality was never as good as Sonos, but they did well in terms of setup and usability. But I think they were thinking, okay, this is like a new ordering mechanism. We're the place that consumers go to purchase.

• 24:49John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 24:50Jordi Hays?

  Like, we need to be here. Maybe it didn't really turn out to be the case. And voice, I feel like, has just continued to take L after L.

• 24:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:59Jordi Hays?

  Even, even air chat shut down. I don't know if you saw that.

• 25:02John Coogan?

  Oh, that's yeah.

• 25:03Jordi Hays?

  And, and people were saying like, okay, if, if this didn't make it, this was the best shot on call for audio. Like, it maybe just isn't the thing.

• 25:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:14Jordi Hays?

  So, but they also had run-ins with Google.

• 25:17John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so basically, so the stage like 2012, they raised that round from KKR. They launch a $200 speaker. So it's much easier to get into the Sonos ecosystem. And from, from late 2013 to late 2014, the revenue grew by 75%. So like, they're really taking off at this time.

• 25:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 25:35John Coogan?

  But then simultaneously, in 2014, Amazon announced the Echo and Alexa at $99 for Prime subscribers. Sonos had never considered building its own voice assistant, and the smart speaker era took them by surprise. McFarlane later admitted that they were late to recognize the impact of voice in mid 2016. Sonos finally announced.

• 25:55Jordi Hays?

  BlackBerry goes, nobody's ever going to want to type on, on a glass. It's just not going to happen. Boom. But Sonos is going, nobody wants their speakers, speakers to be smart. Our users like that it takes 45 minutes to set up one of your six speakers.

• 26:10John Coogan?

  I mean, I think just, this is another case of like slop being massively underrated. Like, I think that, you know, I'm not a crazy audio file, but I can tell the difference between like a nice surround sound Sonos setup, like an Amazon Echo. But I think many people don't care.

• 26:24Jordi Hays?

  I wasn't, I had never, I've never, I enjoy music. I don't enjoy live music typically just because of the crowds and stuff like that. I rarely go to concerts.

• 26:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Jordi Hays?

  But um, the, my neighbor is the biggest audiophile that I've ever met. This is Stefan Simkowitz. He's a pretty high profile art collector. And um, he, if you go in his house, there's just speakers everywhere, like every surface. And it is truly incredible, but all the stuff he does is, is he's like, this amp is made from this guy in Denmark and he makes 10 of these a year. And he's been doing it and it's like watchmaking in a way. So I think we should eventually get.

• 27:06John Coogan?

  Yeah. You've got to come around on live music. I'll take you to the LA Phil. Let's see Dudamel.

• 27:11Jordi Hays?

  The Phil is, the Phil is different. I don't, I don't like being in, I don't like being in places where there's sweaty strangers.

• 27:17John Coogan?

  Oh, I'm imagining like a box.

• 27:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:20John Coogan?

  Some champagne.

• 27:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the Phil.

• 27:22John Coogan?

  How, how do people do live music in a different way?

• 27:26Jordi Hays?

  Don't act like you've never been to Hard Summer.

• 27:29John Coogan?

  EDC.

• 27:30Jordi Hays?

  EDC. You didn't, you went to the first EDC, right?

• 27:33John Coogan?

  No, not, not the first one. This is a long time ago.

• 27:35Jordi Hays?

  Long time ago. I was not born yet.

• 27:39John Coogan?

  Uh, it was, it was uh, 2003.

• 27:43Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 27:43John Coogan?

  Yeah. And so, uh, oh yeah, the, the other thing is uh, car speakers. Are you familiar with this stuff? So basically there's a, there's this guy that designed the perfect arrangement of speakers. He like ripped out the dash and custom like 3D printed a mold for perfectly placed speakers in a car that where the audio quality is just 10 times better than anything you'd get, even like a Bentley or Mercedes or Rolls Royce. But what they found was that when they actually tried to market that technology, no one cared. They all just wanted a headline number, number of speakers, number of.

• 28:19Jordi Hays?

  Or sows.

• 28:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, or bows, exactly.

• 28:22Jordi Hays?

  By the way, I blew out one of the subwoofers in my, in my turbo.

• 28:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's so annoying. I, I, I, I kept having to turn down the bass.

• 28:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:34Jordi Hays?

  Because I was like, that just doesn't sound that good. It's rattling. And then I realized, and then I actually made it worse because like I was.

• 28:40John Coogan?

  Oh yeah, sure, sure, sure.

• 28:41Jordi Hays?

  So I have to take it in, but it hasn't been a priority.

• 28:43John Coogan?

  Oh, that's brutal. I'm so sorry, man. That's like the roughest thing I've ever heard. I mean, there's people whose houses burned down, but I mean, you're right up there with them.

• 28:53Jordi Hays?

  God.

• 28:55John Coogan?

  Yeah. So yeah, send Jordy a comment. Tell him thoughts and prayers for his broken speaker and his turbo.

• 29:06John Coogan?

  But yeah, I mean, lots of competition.

• 29:09Jordi Hays?

  Self plug.

• 29:11John Coogan?

  I think the success of the Alexa and the Google Home is just like, check the boxes on features and make it super, super cheap and you'll just get crazy distribution and people will put up with some of the other junk.

• 29:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't. And it's interesting if you think about how there was a phase where it seemed like people cared about audio and Beats by Dre was a part of this, but I don't think that people actually, that was still a status symbol, right? Like people just wanted to wear the Beats by Dre.

• 29:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:40Jordi Hays?

  And then AirPods are the same thing. People clear, the average consumer clearly does not care about audio quality, right? They're not optimizing for that.

• 29:49John Coogan?

  It's about signaling to people that you're not afraid of EMF.

• 29:52Jordi Hays?

  Exactly. You're not afraid to.

• 29:54John Coogan?

  I'm afraid.

• 29:55Jordi Hays?

  Microwave your head.

• 29:56John Coogan?

  Exactly. I don't live in fear.

• 29:58Jordi Hays?

  Do not live in fear. Yeah, the EMFs have a positive effect.

• 30:02John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 30:04Jordi Hays?

  But yeah, so this is interesting. So in January 2020, Sonos sued Google over copyright infringement relating to several patents, including the ability to sync audio over multiple devices. In August 2021, a judge ruled in favor of Sonos. The International Trade Commission also ruled in favor of Sonos. As a result, Google was ordered to remove certain features from its devices, including group volume control. That's gotta be so annoying to get ordered by the ITC to make your product worse, basically. Google was ordered to pay Sonos 32 million in damages, which is literally nothing. So I'm sure Google was like, okay,

• 30:44Jordi Hays?

  like, whatever. However, a judge tossed out the verdict in October and criticized Sonos for abusing the patent system.

• 30:54John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 30:54Jordi Hays?

  Following the verdict, Google redeployed the features it had previously removed.

• 30:58John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 31:00Jordi Hays?

  And anyways, so not the first or the last.

• 31:05John Coogan?

  UI or UX innovations that you're just like, I get that you could patent this, but it'd be much nicer if this was just in every app. Like pull to refresh was one of those. That was actually developed by, I think a company that Twitter bought. And then Twitter said, hey, we're not going to defend the patent like anyone.

• 31:22Jordi Hays?

  And so now you have Instagram and yeah, everybody has it basically. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I, it doesn't. And this is, this is, this is, this is the kind of stuff like founders will join YC. They never built a company before. And they'll go into their first partner meeting, whatever. And they're like, yeah, we're filing our patents for this. And YC will give you the good advice of being like, you should absolutely not do that.

• 31:49John Coogan?

  But it's just don't focus.

• 31:50Jordi Hays?

  Total waste of time and money. Doesn't really matter. You can't.

• 31:55Jordi Hays?

  And patent stuff is weird. Interestingly enough, the rich guys have just dealt with so much of this because they actually have designed patents around a physical hardware device. And even that, they spend like a million a year or more, like just like going after people that are just ripping it off directly. Patents on Aurora.

• 32:12John Coogan?

  Or just.

• 32:13Jordi Hays?

  On a patent.

• 32:14John Coogan?

  You want a patent yet?

• 32:15Jordi Hays?

  I don't, I don't actually think.

• 32:16John Coogan?

  I got my first patent approved.

• 32:17Jordi Hays?

  On what?

• 32:18John Coogan?

  Uh, Breakers.

• 32:19Jordi Hays?

  Breakers.

• 32:19John Coogan?

  First capsule nicotine pouch.

• 32:21Jordi Hays?

  Very cool.

• 32:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was a big moment. It was like, I wasn't.

• 32:24Jordi Hays?

  See, that's like, that's IP, that's IP that you can defend because if, because if Philip Morris tries to come after it, you're going to be able to come after them for like hundreds of millions of damages if they are selling a lot of.

• 32:38John Coogan?

  Yeah. But it's fun. I still gotta get the tombstone made of like the, the plaque. When you get like a patent, you can go and say like, okay, I want to buy like a, like a trophy.

• 32:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. That'd be good for the office.

• 32:49John Coogan?

  I, I don't think of myself as like an inventor, but it's cool to like have my name on a, technically an invention.

• 32:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. A lot of designers in big tech will have gotten on patents at some point.

• 33:00John Coogan?

  We're engineers. I know a guy who developed a Google cloud platform, like their AWS competitor, and he has a ton of patents around like how cloud computing works. It's like really cool. And like, I think they'd get a.

• 33:09Jordi Hays?

  It's an interesting thing where you don't, yeah, you don't, you don't own anything related to it, but you get a little.

• 33:13John Coogan?

  Crush from Google and then he went to another startup and then another one made tons of money. He's all good.

• 33:18Jordi Hays?

  He's okay.

• 33:21Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, well, where are they? Where are they today?

• 33:23John Coogan?

  Struggling, stocks down.

• 33:26Jordi Hays?

  In 2020, in May 2023, their their revenue, they had a 24% drop in revenue. They've had a bunch of layoffs, which is unfortunate because it is a big employer in Santa Barbara.

• 33:38Jordi Hays?

  And there's not a ton of technology companies here.

• 33:43John Coogan?

  I wonder where they should go. Like, should they get acquired by Apple or someone? Like, would that even get through? Like, Alina Khan's out, maybe the antitrust stuff is a little bit looser.

• 33:51Jordi Hays?

  I don't think Apple.

• 33:52John Coogan?

  Too late.

• 33:53Jordi Hays?

  I don't think Apple would actually buy them now because think about it. Hey, we could spend, we already have AirPods.

• 33:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:59Jordi Hays?

  We have audio devices that do crazy numbers. We had the best.

• 34:03John Coogan?

  You know, Sonos launched headphones? They launched.

• 34:06Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:07John Coogan?

  They were like, it's like, why would I want buggy or headphones?

• 34:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I think they're they're not going to get bought by Apple because Apple could be like, well, why don't we spend a billion dollars developing a better speaker and sell it through our thousands of stores?

• 34:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, but I mean, they've been doing that and it hasn't really been working like, you know?

• 34:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but also clearly.

• 34:30John Coogan?

  Yeah, this is.

• 34:30Jordi Hays?

  Sonos isn't working. One thing, one thing is that the phone, the phone kills speakers in so many ways. One of them is that I will often just put like the as the phone speakers gotten louder.

• 34:44John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:44Jordi Hays?

  My need for speakers.

• 34:45John Coogan?

  You just listen to it.

• 34:47Jordi Hays?

  Because like, what's the song we use for the Ashley Vance piece?

• 34:50John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:50Jordi Hays?

  Dropped yet.

• 34:51John Coogan?

  The right above it.

• 34:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. All you need is.

• 34:57John Coogan?

  Often in the morning, I would go into the kitchen and make my son breakfast and I used to go to Sonos and try and put on some music and it got too hard and so I'll just play it for my phone. Seriously, it's just like, it's fun. Speaker is fine. Like, he doesn't care. I don't care, whatever. I'm just putting on some.

• 35:10Jordi Hays?

  Honestly, take your Sonos, hang out with your kids, take it apart. I used to really, I used to really, my dad used to do that.

• 35:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Jordi Hays?

  With, with, uh.

• 35:18John Coogan?

  Something like that.

• 35:19Jordi Hays?

  Old electronics with me and my brother. He would just say like, let's take this apart. He'd be like, this is this.

• 35:23John Coogan?

  I mean, honestly, like turning it into a dumb speaker is like pretty good. Cause like.

• 35:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this is fine. Wire them up, wire them up. Turn into, you know, when you put two cans in a string, you know, something like, it needs to be that dumb.

• 35:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, something like that.

• 35:36Jordi Hays?

  Um, anyways, I, I hope they turn it around. I think, I think if they just make smarter, smart speakers.

• 35:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:44Jordi Hays?

  Continue to focus on design, actually get their software right. There's definitely, there's definitely a billion dollar revenue business here. They've done damage to their brand, but I hope they, um, I hope, uh, I hope one of these founders comes back and says, you know what? I'm gonna come, I'm gonna buy speaker.com, form a new company, merge it with Sonos.

• 36:06John Coogan?

  So.

• 36:06Jordi Hays?

  Do a reverse take private.

• 36:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:09Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, you know, come out speaker.com.

• 36:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Jordi Hays?

  You know, run it back because, um, yeah, or the founder does, uh, if SPACs are back, he speaker.com SPAC it. Acquire Sonos, fresh start.

• 36:24John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, the real lesson here is like, if you're frustrated with being a Sonos customer, like you'd be better being like a seed, seed investor in Sonos. And have sold at the top.

• 36:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 36:34John Coogan?

  Just make the money. Just be on the, be on the capital side.

• 36:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 36:37John Coogan?

  Consumer side.

• 36:38Jordi Hays?

  This is like you were, your word of advice to those, um, the ski patrolers, just like try out, you know, instead of being a ski patroler. Be, you know, get into private equity, you know, launch your own billion dollar fund and just buy a place in.

• 36:52John Coogan?

  Yeah. And then the KKR guys are all doing well enough that they can just have a, a, a full-time audio engineer on staff and then ever.

• 37:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 37:02John Coogan?

  Or just a live string quartet.

• 37:05Jordi Hays?

  Exactly. That's probably the better solution.

• 37:07John Coogan?

  Have a string quartet in your house.

• 37:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And be a patron of the arts, you know, have a guitarist.

• 37:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:13Jordi Hays?

  You use in certain settings.

• 37:14John Coogan?

  Plays the harp.

• 37:15Jordi Hays?

  A drummer.

• 37:16John Coogan?

  The morning.

• 37:16Jordi Hays?

  A drummer.

• 37:17John Coogan?

  A drummer.

• 37:18Jordi Hays?

  You know, the, you know, the, uh, like Peruvian style drum.

• 37:23John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:25Jordi Hays?

  That'd be great. Having somebody play mute, you know, the Apple Alarm Clock app, I really complained about it. It's terrible. I'm like dragging this thing around.

• 37:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it'd be much.

• 37:33Jordi Hays?

  And it's very, it's very confusing where you're like, whoa, is the alarm on? You don't really.

• 37:37John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 37:37Jordi Hays?

  Is the volume right? Like, there's a lot of stuff about it that I don't think is great, but I really should just stop complaining. Hire, you know, somebody to play the violin for like 120 grand a year.

• 37:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:49Jordi Hays?

  And all they have to do is just show up and play, start playing the violin out my window.

• 37:52John Coogan?

  There we are.

• 37:53Jordi Hays?

  For.

• 37:54John Coogan?

  So you can get the gym.

• 37:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 37:56John Coogan?

  It's cool.

• 37:57Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, uh.

• 37:58John Coogan?

  Interesting company.

• 38:00Jordi Hays?

  Go, uh, if you're looking to, uh, for a challenge, go buy a Sonos. It's a, it's a great American company and, um.

• 38:08John Coogan?

  Do you say buy a Sonos or buy Sonos?

• 38:11Jordi Hays?

  Both.

• 38:12John Coogan?

  Both. Take the product. Turn them around.

• 38:14Jordi Hays?

  Turn them around.

• 38:15John Coogan?

  I think for our audience, the, the latter will be more relevant.

• 38:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that's right. Um, that was great.

• 38:22John Coogan?

  Cool. Let's move on to the timeline. Let's go to Moses Kagan. He says, if you didn't get much from those before you financially, morally, or whatever, you have the opportunity to be a very specific type of hero, the founder of your family.

• 38:36Jordi Hays?

  I, I, I put this in because, um, I feel like you've been, you've been, you know, tooting this horn, beating that drum for a while around creating new traditions, rituals, traditions. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think it's important. I don't wanna, I don't wanna go out and say that this, I, this resonated with me, but, cause I think it's a mentality that everyone can have. I think it's the same thing. If you're an employee, act like a founder, right? Like, how would you?

• 39:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Jordi Hays?

  You know, what would, what would your founder do in that situation?

• 39:08John Coogan?

  Feeling agentic, just.

• 39:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 39:10John Coogan?

  That you can do.

• 39:11Jordi Hays?

  And so, yeah, I don't wanna, you know, my parents had, had good traditions and there's a lot that, that I, you know, carry on. Um, but at the same time, you can. Creating that family is more than just creating the humans and getting married is more, but it's more than about having kids. It's about creating

• 39:28John Coogan?

  The culture.

• 39:29Jordi Hays?

  The culture of the family. Yeah.

• 39:31John Coogan?

  And the financials, obviously.

• 39:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 39:33John Coogan?

  The generation.

• 39:33Jordi Hays?

  Trust. Yeah, yeah. And the trust.

• 39:36John Coogan?

  The trust funds. Yeah, for sure.

• 39:40John Coogan?

  Speaking of

• 39:41Jordi Hays?

  Deliver naptism. You need to be delivering.

• 39:44John Coogan?

  100%. Nick St Pierre says, someone should start a weekend man school that teaches men how to be men. Proposed curriculum grappling, carpentry, fire, fire, starting, cooking meat, fixing flat tires, public speaking, power tools 101, knife sharpening, conflict resolution, barbecue mastery, basic survival skills, basic electrical work, fitness fundamentals, sourcing healthy food, emergency preparedness, electronic troubleshooting, how to shake a hand like a man, fixes for common household problems.

• 40:15Jordi Hays?

  So I'll take this one step further. I think this would be great as a parent kid class, right? Where, because I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do this solo.

• 40:25John Coogan?

  I agree. I agree.

• 40:26Jordi Hays?

  I'm not going to go on a Saturday and be like,

• 40:28John Coogan?

  It's weird.

• 40:29Jordi Hays?

  Tell your wife, hey, I'm going to go hang out for eight hours and learn barbecue mastery. But it'd be like, why don't you just barbecue for us? You know? But if I said, hey, I'm going to take the kids and we're going to go how to pick lock. You learn how to pick locks.

• 40:40John Coogan?

  That's cool.

• 40:41Jordi Hays?

  Learn how to start a car.

• 40:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:42Jordi Hays?

  You know, without a key. Now I'm just going after the ones that are really disastrous situations.

• 40:49John Coogan?

  Mozart didn't have to ask people how to write concertos, you know?

• 40:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 40:52John Coogan?

  So there's a little bit of like, if you're the type of person that needs this like man's school, like you're maybe not.

• 40:58Jordi Hays?

  Again, again, this is the kind of stuff that, you know, my dad taught me how to tie knots and whittle and start a fire and stuff like that. But there's also other stuff on that list that he

• 41:08John Coogan?

  Man's school is just hanging out with your dad, baby?

• 41:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 41:11John Coogan?

  Like, there, there's a little bit of like what you've just described is like,

• 41:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but some people's.

• 41:16John Coogan?

  Maybe it's not its own thing. Maybe it's just like actively being a part of your family.

• 41:19Jordi Hays?

  Recreating life. This is like with PMF or Die, we're recreating life, right? We're recreating locking in. We're productizing locking in.

• 41:27John Coogan?

  Yeah. There is this relentless pursuit of, of productization here. Where it's like, do you need a course for this? Or can you just go do it? Like, a lot of these things, it's like, go watch a YouTube video, buy a book on it, and you'll just know how to do it. Or just practice and learn from first principles. Like, you can just barbecue and the first steak you make will be burnt and then the fourth one will be delicious. Like, it's not, it's not that insane.

• 41:52John Coogan?

  Yeah. Anyway, let's go to Jordan Schneider. He says, real talk, and he's quoting Rune. He says, "The thing about America is that it's clearly always functioning at like 10% of its power level due to the costs of freedom, and yet manages to win anyway due to the incredible benefits of freedom. Counter example is like China, which can reorient the entire ocean liner of its economy in a new direction if they want to go to war against COVID or whatever, and yet manage to fuck it up." It's old. This is a throwback post. Good resurface from January 16th, 2023.

• 42:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think, so I think there's an entire, uh, an opportunity for a poster to get hundreds of thousands of followers and their entire job is just re-resurfacing.

• 42:35John Coogan?

  Old bangers. Yeah.

• 42:37Jordi Hays?

  Because right now, the algorithm actually much prefers a screenshot like that than a quote tweet.

• 42:42John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 42:43Jordi Hays?

  And so, your job is to be the archivist of X.

• 42:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:47Jordi Hays?

  And just go back, find Simon Bangers from, from 2017.

• 42:51John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 42:51Jordi Hays?

  When he's, or, you know, 2017, he's in the trenches in Washington.

• 42:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Jordi Hays?

  Saying the same stuff that he's saying now.

• 42:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:58Jordi Hays?

  Um, go find, you know, Rune's like first true banger, you know?

• 43:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, resurface it. Yeah.

• 43:03Jordi Hays?

  So resurface that.

• 43:04John Coogan?

  Be a curator.

• 43:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, curator.

• 43:05John Coogan?

  It's good.

• 43:06Jordi Hays?

  But yeah, you could easily get a hundred thousand followers doing that.

• 43:08John Coogan?

  But I, I like the core point there because you see, like, it, it is very easy to like lean into authoritarianism because you're just like, wow, things are so dysfunctional over here right now. Like, wouldn't it be amazing if, like, the government could just come in and like, build high-speed rail in like two seconds? And it's like, that would be good, but what would it cost? Like, the cost would be freedom potentially and.

• 43:31John Coogan?

  Uh, it's often just like this hidden cost that just like sit there in the background. You don't really take it for advan- take it for granted. Uh, it's easy to take it for granted. So good post. We should go to a promoted post.

• 43:43Jordi Hays?

  So I'm jumping into a promoted post. Uh, I don't have it printed out today, but it is a cool one. So we recently acquired an iconic four-letter domain. From, uh, our, uh, domain broker, Rob Shuts.

• 44:02John Coogan?

  Oh, Rob.

• 44:03Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Rob. Rob, uh, cool background. He was, um, he was one of the founders of Roman. And also Bark, Bark.

• 44:14John Coogan?

  Bark, yeah.

• 44:15Jordi Hays?

  Bark, uh, let me confirm.

• 44:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's just Bark company.

• 44:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:19John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 44:20Jordi Hays?

  So he, yeah, so anyways, started some really big companies and just got obsessed with domains. And so as he phased out from Ro, he decided to launch Snagged. It's at snagged on X or snag.com. Uh, and he was able to help us get this amazing four-letter.com. I sent him the domain that we wanted at like 6:00 AM. He had secured it by and done an entire deal to secure it at a ridiculously low price by, I think like 9:00 AM. It was like the fastest turnaround. So he's, he's amazing. But I wanted to, um, I wanted to highlight. So, uh, back in 90, this is a post from, from the snag account.

• 45:04Jordi Hays?

  It says, "Back in 94, the internet was a total free for all. You could grab almost any domain. And in many cases, domain registrations were free. At the time, Chris Clark was a 29-year-old consultant in Maryland. On a whim, he registered pizza.com. Why? He thought maybe, just maybe some pizza business would bite on his domain, but nobody did. So he slapped some ads on it, made a little cash and left it to collect digital dust for 14 years. Fast forward to 2008, Chris heard that vodka.com sold for 3 million. So he listed his domain with a starting bid of a hundred bucks. The next morning it was at half a million and by the end of the auction, it hit 2.6 million.

• 45:43John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 45:43Jordi Hays?

  The buyer, a shady company which ended up getting busted for money laundering. They couldn't handle their dough." Rob's a great writer.

• 45:51John Coogan?

  Wow, what a great story.

• 45:52Jordi Hays?

  Even though, even though pizza.com is still out there, it's stuck in the early 2000s with its sites and aesthetics and info. No major pizza chain has ever bought it. Chris's one regret, not registering more domains back in the day. Opportunity knocks, but patience, that's how you win. So what's the next pizza.com? Only time will tell. So that's so insane. Imagine being 94, you're just like registering. And people were doing this a little bit with ETH addresses, right? And Solana addresses. And I knew, I knew somebody who had like youtube dot soul or something like that. And it's like, I just don't see Google like actually buying that.

• 46:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 46:28Jordi Hays?

  But anyways.

• 46:29John Coogan?

  There's some great ones out there if you can see the future.

• 46:31Jordi Hays?

  Can't, can't speak highly enough.

• 46:32John Coogan?

  But I love that because you think about domain brokerage and it's like a pretty boring behind the scenes job, but amazing content marketing. That sounds like a great account to follow just to get interesting tidbits of internet history. And I just love that so much. So shout out to him. And if you're looking for a domain, hit him up and tell the, tell him the technology brother sent you. Let's move on to a bucket poll. Jordy, we got one from Ben. He says, yes, professor, due to my brain rot diagnosis, I need to have Subway surfers playing during every lecture. Somehow this got no likes when we printed it out. I don't know.

• 47:12Jordi Hays?

  Wait, so Ben, so Ben, this, this is a guy who I just, he's posting bangers all morning. I was like, we need to hire this guy.

• 47:19John Coogan?

  I love this guy. This is fantastic. Very funny. The Subway surfers is such, such a meme. I wonder how much the Subway surfer trend is real or if like the Gen Z kids are like in on it. Do you think that they're, do you think that they're like aware of like the brain rot? And it's like they're laughing with it? Or do you think there are some people that are actually like, this is more engaging?

• 47:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 47:40John Coogan?

  What do you think?

• 47:42Jordi Hays?

  I, whenever I pull them up, I just look at it. I'm like, I'm so annoyed that this, this,

• 47:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:48Jordi Hays?

  this other video is playing.

• 47:49John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Jordi Hays?

  But, but it's partially because I was born, like I, I'm five days too old to be Gen Z.

• 47:55John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 47:55Jordi Hays?

  Or something like that. So it's like, I just think I'm not, it's just a different generation.

• 47:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other interesting thing is like, if you look at like ESPN or CNBC, like those have brain rot elements where there will be tickers at the bottom, picture in picture. You go to Bloomberg and it's like, someone's talking while they're giving you the news facts on the side. Like,

• 48:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 48:15John Coogan?

  this idea of having a feed of content that's, that's sending you multiple pieces of information all at once. Like, it's definitely a thing.

• 48:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 48:24John Coogan?

  Okay, we got a-

• 48:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we do that on our, we do that on our videos.

• 48:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, we do that on-

• 48:27Jordi Hays?

  People don't realize, but there's a lot of alpha in the ticker.

• 48:29John Coogan?

  In the ticker.

• 48:30Jordi Hays?

  On, whenever we post videos on X.

• 48:32John Coogan?

  Yep. TBSPN. Uh, let's go to Trey Stevens. He says, "The offer is still on the table, Jason. We had over a quarter million raised for charity within just a couple of hours. Maybe don't chicken out this time. At Scientist, at Palmer Lucky." And so, uh, this was a clip from the All In Podcast where Jason Calacanis and, uh, Dave Friedberg were discussing J Cal getting in the ring with Palmer Lucky and, uh, Trey, uh, who loves fighting sports, was offering to get in the ring. A lot of people were talking about this. This was during COVID when this first broke.

• 49:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's interesting that Jason, Jason loves attention more than anyone.

• 49:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:11Jordi Hays?

  That's, that's very clear. He has leveraged it in a, you know, and mostly, you know, he's built an accelerator. He's got his fund. He's got all this stuff. He's definitely played his game well.

• 49:22John Coogan?

  And he understands that like, you, attention is attention, whether it's positive or negative.

• 49:27Jordi Hays?

  But he typically, you know, he, he is a bully.

• 49:30John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 49:30Jordi Hays?

  And it's interesting that as soon, as soon as the bully is actually getting invited, saying, "Step into the ring."

• 49:35John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 49:36Jordi Hays?

  He's saying, "Oh, I, you know, it's, I don't want to do-"

• 49:39John Coogan?

  It's a boy.

• 49:39Jordi Hays?

  He, his excuse was that, that Palmer was like much younger or something like that, but-

• 49:43John Coogan?

  I thought it was that Trey was like the mountain, he said, or something like that.

• 49:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but, but Jason could just get off Ozempic.

• 49:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Jordi Hays?

  And just get- Huge.

• 49:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Jordi Hays?

  He's got, he can train, he can hire Zok's MMA coach.

• 49:57John Coogan?

  Well, I think, I, I think you said that Trey was younger than him.

• 50:00Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:01John Coogan?

  So, I mean Trey and Palmer are both younger than Jason.

• 50:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but, but, I mean, Mike, didn't stop Mike Tyson from stepping in the ring, sixty year old man.

• 50:10John Coogan?

  Yeah. Let's see it. I mean, I.

• 50:12Jordi Hays?

  I don't like the excuse. It's, it's a duck. In UFC, it's called ducking. Where if I, and John Jones has been doing this with, um, the, the champ, um, I forget his name, the, the, uh, champion out of, um, the UK, where he just is making up all these excuses, saying, well, I need fifty million dollars if I want to fight him, or, ah, it just doesn't make sense. That fight doesn't make sense to me right now. And Jason would clearly just rather keep antagonizing.

• 50:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:37Jordi Hays?

  You know, on the timeline.

• 50:38John Coogan?

  I mean, I don't know if we're, at this point, I'm, I've been like fooled too many. I've gotten my, uh, my like excitement levels up too many times with the Zok Elon fight.

• 50:48Jordi Hays?

  Why hasn't there been a high profile?

• 50:51John Coogan?

  The highest profile one is literally Nick Carter. And that was like pretty tiny.

• 50:55Jordi Hays?

  But that was very crypto.

• 50:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, and it, I don't even think, well, he was going to fight the Bankless guys, right? But then the Bankless guy, uh, got an injury and posted a photo of like he slipped a disc or something. And so he was like, I'm sorry, I just can't fight you because I'm like injured. And.

• 51:11Jordi Hays?

  There was a big guy, there was another big, um, awesome in crypto, got, they got, and the Bit Boy crypto guy, they were fighting.

• 51:19John Coogan?

  Did they actually fight?

• 51:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's shots of, um, Bit Boy getting an as, like an asthma thing mid fight.

• 51:27John Coogan?

  Didn't Sam Hyde fight someone too? Look, the YouTubers are really good at this. Like, the, the content.

• 51:32Jordi Hays?

  No, and Bryce, what's the guy Bryce?

• 51:33John Coogan?

  Bryce Hall?

• 51:34Jordi Hays?

  Bryce Hall has gone into bare knuckle boxing and performed.

• 51:38John Coogan?

  Really?

• 51:38Jordi Hays?

  He has done well. And bare knuckles gnarly because if you. Make a mistake or you get clipped, like your entire lip will get cut out. Like Luke Rockhold, the former UFC.

• 51:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:50Jordi Hays?

  Middleweight went in and was fighting, um, God, what's it? Mike Perry.

• 51:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, Luke just gave up midway because he was, his face was getting, and this is a former UFC champion. His face was getting so damaged. He just was like, I'm not going to do this. And Bryce Hall goes in and does that.

• 52:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:09Jordi Hays?

  Does well.

• 52:10John Coogan?

  The Fight Club stuff's tough because like, it's really hard to balance out all the different factors. Even the Zuck Elon fight, it's like, I think Elon has like, five inches of height on Zuck, something like that. And, and so.

• 52:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Size, size matters.

• 52:23John Coogan?

  Size really does matter, but then Zuck's been training for a lot longer. So it depends on like, if the fight was today, maybe Zuck's technique would work. But if you give him a year.

• 52:32Jordi Hays?

  Technique.

• 52:32John Coogan?

  Elon might be able to get up to speed. So it really was like 50 50 for me.

• 52:35Jordi Hays?

  You take two amateurs.

• 52:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Jordi Hays?

  And size is going to almost always do it unless it's MMA where you can get a knockout.

• 52:44John Coogan?

  Yeah. And, and Zuck's been training for years, but not his entire life.

• 52:48Jordi Hays?

  Jiu Jitsu is cool.

• 52:49John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 52:50Jordi Hays?

  Because smaller dudes can just destroy, like size matters less. Like I would have like all my, I would have like a bunch of buddies around Malibu over to do Jiu Jitsu. Rob from, from Heber Men would come and some other, um, dad friends. And it's just funny. You have like a former like Ole Miss linebacker.

• 53:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, just getting.

• 53:11Jordi Hays?

  Fighting like a college like basketball player and they're like super even, even though like they, in a true street fight, like it probably wouldn't.

• 53:19John Coogan?

  Isn't there, I saw someone on X talking about, uh, doing some sort of like founder Fight Club. They wanted us to fight.

• 53:25Jordi Hays?

  That was, uh, Chris.

• 53:27John Coogan?

  Someone was posting about it. I thought that was kind of funny. Um, let's go to Atlas Creatine Cycle. He says, many of you used to be technology accounts. Is he just reflecting on like the shift to politics?

• 53:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I felt like this was a subtweet, subtweeted, subtweeted me. But it was actually just everybody, but it was, uh, as, uh, you know, the fires, I think catalyzed a bunch of people to say, I'm gonna stop posting about tech for a few days and just focus on,

• 53:56Jordi Hays?

  uh, Mayor, Mayor Karen and, and the news and fires.

• 53:59John Coogan?

  And you stack all that on top of what happened to your speaker in your car and you must've just been rocked. So makes sense that you were, you know, just broke, broke character. Couldn't talk about tech anymore.

• 54:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 54:11John Coogan?

  Had to go.

• 54:11Jordi Hays?

  Talk about techs. I'm happy to be, I'm happy to be back talking about tech. Yeah. We got a city, we got a city.

• 54:18John Coogan?

  Deep dive and, uh, and we could get back into tech because there's, there's still really interesting stuff going on, but, but when big political things happen, like you've got to address them because, uh, tech is increasingly political because the stakes are so high, the businesses are so large and, you know, Elon is at Mar-a-Lago hanging out with Trump. And so clearly technology and politics are, are going to be continue, continue to intertwine for a long time.

• 54:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 54:41John Coogan?

  But yeah, you can't ever slip fully into politics.

• 54:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 54:43John Coogan?

  It's just boring. Should we do another promoted post?

• 54:46Jordi Hays?

  Uh, let's see here.

• 54:49John Coogan?

  We got one from Lucky Groom or you want to move on?

• 54:51Jordi Hays?

  I actually got a promoted post from, uh, our, uh, Sean and Connor and Sean, uh, sent this over Connor and Sean over at the Ridge Wallet. They say 500 free-ish Ridge wallets up for grabs. We donated $50,000 to LA Fire Relief this week and are trying to find more ways to contribute. Wallets unfortunately are non-essential items, so donating product doesn't make a lot of sense, but money goes a long way. So here's what we're trying. If you submit proof of a $50 plus donation to any LA Fire Relief organization, we'll send you a Ridge Wallet for free. We'll do this for the first 500 people who submit. It's the cheapest you'll ever get a Ridge Wallet and you'll be doing good. Details below for

• 55:35Jordi Hays?

  how to submit. So, uh, very cool. Uh, if you've wanted to get a Ridge Wallet, um, now is the time to do it. If it's not too late already, I don't think it is.

• 55:44John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 55:45Jordi Hays?

  So thank you to Sean and Connor for, uh, helping raise money for Fire Relief, uh, here in Southern California.

• 55:53John Coogan?

  Cool. Let's go to some DMs that we don't have printed out, but I have here on my phone. Um, Michael Tostod says the Tech Bros Pod should have, quote, "Is this secret communist section?" Really bring back the McCarthyism. And you said, "Haha, that's great. Looking forward to the segment." Uh, we pay too deep digging into secret communists.

• 56:14Jordi Hays?

  So I think we should have, I think, I think we have a new segment. Can be kind of sporadic.

• 56:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:19Jordi Hays?

  Where we sort of try to figure out.

• 56:20John Coogan?

  Who were the targets? Like the venture communists?

• 56:22Jordi Hays?

  Well, so, so Karen Bass was the target.

• 56:24John Coogan?

  Okay, sure, sure, sure.

• 56:26Jordi Hays?

  It turns out.

• 56:26John Coogan?

  Dig into it.

• 56:27Jordi Hays?

  Her political career. Well, I guess this was just the beginning of her political career. She was a very active communist, working directly with the Cuban government.

• 56:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:36Jordi Hays?

  In the seventies. Um, so yeah, I just think, uh, I talked about this before. Uh, people have been, you know, looking for new slurs, communists. There's been a.

• 56:48John Coogan?

  There's been a bull market in slurs.

• 56:49Jordi Hays?

  Fixation on slurs.

• 56:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:51Jordi Hays?

  And so venture capitalists. Hey, John, that market map makes you look like a junior VC.

• 56:58John Coogan?

  There you go.

• 56:59Jordi Hays?

  You know, slurs like that. Um, you know, communist, mouth breather, low T.

• 57:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Jordi Hays?

  Uh, low magnesium levels.

• 57:08John Coogan?

  There's plenty.

• 57:09Jordi Hays?

  So there's, there's plenty. Um.

• 57:11John Coogan?

  Let's go to the next, uh, comment that someone said, uh, no, uh, is a photo of us and they say, "No cases on their phone? Yeah, these guys have exits."

• 57:19Jordi Hays?

  That's great.

• 57:21John Coogan?

  And then Nate, Nate chimes in with Jordy, the Jordy Hayes stack. No phone case, no socks, no shampoo.

• 57:27Jordi Hays?

  Where Ethan is?

• 57:29John Coogan?

  This is in a reply to Ben's post. He just.

• 57:32Jordi Hays?

  Ben's, so, so Ben's producer Ben.

• 57:35John Coogan?

  Has been, his account's been exploding.

• 57:36Jordi Hays?

  Account has been.

• 57:37John Coogan?

  Get in, get in now. He's a couple hundred followers. He's blowing up. It's great.

• 57:41Jordi Hays?

  That's great.

• 57:42John Coogan?

  Uh, here's a good question for us. Uh, Britain Winter Rose says, "Task with hosting an, an event VCs will want to attend. The options are Porsche racing experience, skiing, a panel of three other VCs, or other comment below." And Mario says, "Tech Bros Pod should have good insight. Jordy, what do you think? You want to attract as many VCs to the event you're throwing? What do you go for?"

• 58:10Jordi Hays?

  Honestly, the last time I saw a true flock was the Gundo.

• 58:15John Coogan?

  Oh, we remember that.

• 58:16Jordi Hays?

  Last year. Last, like a.

• 58:18John Coogan?

  Like a flock of VCs.

• 58:20Jordi Hays?

  A flock of VCs.

• 58:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:21Jordi Hays?

  Because it was just.

• 58:22John Coogan?

  We need a name for that. You know how like if you get a group of lions, it's called Pride of Lions, or you get a bunch of crows. It's called Murder of Crows.

• 58:29Jordi Hays?

  I think a flock is good because you have.

• 58:31John Coogan?

  Flock of sheeps.

• 58:32Jordi Hays?

  Like, some of them are seagulls, like the rats, you know, the rats of the air. Some are pigeons. Also, kind of, you know, they're foraging, they're just trying to nip off, like, all I need is half a percent, that's my ownership target, you know, they're just trying to get a crumb. The others are the, you know, more of like the eagles, you know, like the, the ones that sit high above and I'd put.

• 58:55John Coogan?

  That's not what you call eagles, though.

• 58:57Jordi Hays?

  No, I know, but I'm just saying, we're gonna broadly, we're gonna, we're gonna flock of birds, I think is fair. So we gotta kind of bucket in a few different.

• 59:05John Coogan?

  A group of eagles is called a convocation of eagles.

• 59:08Jordi Hays?

  Convocation, that's good.

• 59:10John Coogan?

  A convocation of an army or a congress.

• 59:13Jordi Hays?

  But do you remember that when, when the Gundo, I think you catalyzed it in some way with your documentary, it was already building.

• 59:20John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 59:20Jordi Hays?

  And then every VC was, was like, yeah, let me know if you're around, I'm gonna be in the Gundo this week, you know.

• 59:29Jordi Hays?

  And it's cool. I mean.

• 59:31John Coogan?

  So you would say if you want to host an event with VCs, just go like the hottest new sub-market that's blowing up?

• 59:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 59:37John Coogan?

  Like a high influencer and then just take them out to all the startups in the area?

• 59:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 59:42John Coogan?

  That's probably good.

• 59:43Jordi Hays?

  That works.

• 59:43John Coogan?

  I would say big game hunting would also be good.

• 59:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the number of GPs that are secretly taking multiple trips a year to hunt elephants.

• 59:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:54Jordi Hays?

  Louts, lions, really exotic.

• 59:57John Coogan?

  Mostly predators, but yeah.

• 59:58Jordi Hays?

  Predator hunting.

• 59:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, hunting's really big right now.

• 1:00:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01John Coogan?

  Also Porsche racing experience, that's fine, but you'd be better off doing the Dakar.

• 1:00:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06John Coogan?

  Putting a group together, driving from.

• 1:00:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the Gundo, all three thousand.

• 1:00:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, Gumball was also good. Great, great.

• 1:00:14Jordi Hays?

  Great post.

• 1:00:14John Coogan?

  Option. Let's see, what else? Oh my God, someone just did guess the podcast and it's just photos of us, I think, like. This? That's hilarious.

• 1:00:26Jordi Hays?

  When is that today?

• 1:00:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, I guess I just posted this. I like this. That's great. Oh, it's Matt and you posted that. Took some, just took some photos. They're proud of slides. That's great.

• 1:00:37Jordi Hays?

  Ben's out of control. Ben, in, following Ben right now is like buying Bitcoin.

• 1:00:42John Coogan?

  Oops.

• 1:00:43Jordi Hays?

  Following Ben right now is like buying Bitcoin in, in 1981.

• 1:00:48John Coogan?

  Just gets older every single time we promote something. Let's go to a bucket poll. We got Juicy saying dudes be having the worst day of their life and still keep sending memes to their homies like nothing happened. Hundred K likes. I completely agree with this. Even during the fires, you lost cell service, but I was still sending you memes and I was like, he hasn't replied in like five hours. This is bad. This is like very uncouth. But yeah, this is the way like men.

• 1:01:14Jordi Hays?

  No, I think people, I think, yeah, I think, um, I was, I was kind of processing this. I was thinking about this last week because I was sort of oscillating between being extremely angry at the response of our leaders in California and then also needing to kind of process it through humor.

• 1:01:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:01:36Jordi Hays?

  And so, yeah, I mean, I can, I can remember that the SVB, the period, when, when SVB was collapsing, it was very impactful on our, on our business. But then I also had a family health emergency at like 2:00 AM that Thursday. And Thursday and Friday was like the last money you could get money, or the last day you could get money out. So, but I still remember everybody was just like memeing it, like internally, like it was like the biggest, the most

• 1:02:08John Coogan?

  existential.

• 1:02:09Jordi Hays?

  Crazy existential moment for Silicon Valley where we were like, did we, did, did this startup economy just get nuked?

• 1:02:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Jordi Hays?

  And then everybody was, you know, the group chats were having a moment, you know?

• 1:02:20John Coogan?

  Of course, of course.

• 1:02:22Jordi Hays?

  As they do.

• 1:02:22John Coogan?

  Never stops. Let's go to Mark Andreessen. He says, well, this is really going to cramp my style. And he shows a screenshot of message block. The semantic email security dot cloud service has detected content in an email that matches the following policy. Inappropriate content, five dot X dot X. Please remove any language inappropriate for business and resend the message.

• 1:02:45John Coogan?

  The funny thing is like, this is clearly like on A16Z's network, right? I imagine, or maybe, maybe it's very different.

• 1:02:51Jordi Hays?

  It could be.

• 1:02:53John Coogan?

  But it's just funny that he's like triggering the, uh, the content flags. He's mouthing off so much. I love it. True technology, brother, behavior.

• 1:03:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we're bringing, we're, we're, we're trying to encourage people to bring back intensity to the workplace.

• 1:03:07John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:07Jordi Hays?

  And part of that is saying, not words like the R word.

• 1:03:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Jordi Hays?

  It's saying like the F-bomb.

• 1:03:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:14Jordi Hays?

  You know?

• 1:03:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. All caps.

• 1:03:16Jordi Hays?

  Get it fucking done.

• 1:03:18John Coogan?

  You know the thing about Ron Conway? How every email he sends is all caps?

• 1:03:22Jordi Hays?

  Really?

• 1:03:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, incredible. It's like, everything he opened is just screaming, basically. I don't know.

• 1:03:27Jordi Hays?

  That's true.

• 1:03:28John Coogan?

  But.

• 1:03:29Jordi Hays?

  You gotta turn, you gotta turn the volume down before you open an email from, from Ron Conway.

• 1:03:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Uh, let's go to Andrea. She says, much respect to us who have one Twitter account where we shitpost, conduct business and socialize from Sigma Moves. And I agree with this. There's the classic question of like, oh, I got some spicy takes. Should I set up an a non-account? And I don't know. I think that, yeah, you just gotta find the correct line and only post things that you're comfortable living on forever and being baked into the, the, the God in a box.

• 1:04:06Jordi Hays?

  Feeding the I S R I.

• 1:04:08John Coogan?

  The L L M.

• 1:04:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10John Coogan?

  So the A I.

• 1:04:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that's, that's part of it. We gotta, it's, every one of us is training these models.

• 1:04:16John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:04:16Jordi Hays?

  Through the stuff that we're putting online.

• 1:04:18John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:04:19Jordi Hays?

  And so if you want the model to be more politically incorrect, be more politically incorrect, right?

• 1:04:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Jordi Hays?

  And do it on main.

• 1:04:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Jordi Hays?

  It's no, it no, you know, I bet you, I bet you they, I bet you X A I really, you know, tries, I bet they're really good at detecting bots for X A I.

• 1:04:34John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:04:35Jordi Hays?

  You know, they don't want any of that slop that says like. In my, you know, check out my bio now, you know, like some of that stuff.

• 1:04:42John Coogan?

  Or even just like, uh, chat GPT just destroyed Grok and Anthropic, like 10 amazing discoveries below, like those stupid threads, like all those need to get filtered out. There is something to be said about like that mixed use account that's really cool. Like Nikita broke it down where he was like, look, like you're not going to have like some deep insight or some, you know, revolutionary deep dive every single day. So you should just be kind of like hanging out at the water cooler, telling jokes, effectively shitposting. Do that, uh, like just whenever something comes to you a couple of times a day. And then, but then you need to mix in a serious post like once a week or something so that.

• 1:05:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And Andrea, Andrea is like joking around, but she does some of the best analysis.

• 1:05:25John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:05:26Jordi Hays?

  On the consumer packaged goods industry and it's the most entertaining. So I think it's, it's definitely, and when you share stuff that is personal, like your personal interests, like for me, I'm always surprised if I share anything UFC related. I get a bunch of people that I, that I'm friends with that I didn't even know, like the sport and they'll, I mean, talk about it, whatever.

• 1:05:49John Coogan?

  I mean, that's the beauty of X is that it's not designed like siloed reddits. So you don't need to like go and take your account over to watch Twitter or tech Twitter or media Twitter, UFC Twitter to engage with those people. You can just kind of like follow a few people, engage post and the algorithm will send, sometimes it sends posts off to a different region of X and you're like, oh, okay. There's a whole different community here and they love me or they hate me. Who knows? Maybe I gotta lock my account.

• 1:06:16Jordi Hays?

  The Canadians.

• 1:06:17John Coogan?

  Yeah. The Alaskans, the Alaskans got me, got me good. But, uh, let's go to Rune talking to Grimes. Rune says, if you guys aren't careful, I'm going to start writing essays on the immigrant experience. And let me just say, nobody will enjoy that. And then Grimes says, honestly, if you would just write any essay at all, I would be happy. Lazy fuck.

• 1:06:39John Coogan?

  Incredible writer proceeds to only proceeds to only tweet and not create a body of work. Upsetting. And then runes is LMFAO. Okay, Grimes is kicking my ass. I gotta do it. And then Grimes is, are you serious? You can't say it because then you won't do it. Please write something long form and for the love of God, print it on a pamphlet and let's not have another Substack. Let's show some grace to the written word and also get some branding moxie around the ideas percolating in Silicon Valley. And then he says, yeah, Substack is lame. X articles is lame. The vibes on both of those have become bad. And yeah, I mean, I think there's some great Substacks out there and some X articles are cool. You don't want to get censored, so you gotta put that up there too.

• 1:07:22John Coogan?

  But definitely print it out. Definitely send it to people in print. Did you see Max Meyer's new project?

• 1:07:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:28John Coogan?

  The love letters to America. Is that what it's called?

• 1:07:31Jordi Hays?

  Love letters to Capitol. New project under.

• 1:07:33John Coogan?

  Really cool under Arena. So you can go subscribe and you'll just get a nicely, you know, delivered letter in the mail. And we're building a mailing list, a physical mailing list. So send us your address if you want to get drops. We're going to be dropping a bunch of fun stuff in the mail. And I think, you know, you should be keeping a Rolodex. These things often build up around weddings. You get everyone's address there. Keep that up to date. You need a real Rolodex. It's not enough just to have someone's phone or email these days. You gotta be able to send them physical stuff and stand out. Should we do another promoted post? What you got?

• 1:08:07Jordi Hays?

  I got, I got one.

• 1:08:09John Coogan?

  We gotta do the chair at some point.

• 1:08:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we'll do the chair. We'll do the chair next. Do you have some backstory on this chair?

• 1:08:15John Coogan?

  Uh, well, it was recommended by the obscure hobbyist of the year.

• 1:08:19Jordi Hays?

  Oh, really?

• 1:08:20John Coogan?

  Wilmanitis, yes. He said, he said he's buying it.

• 1:08:22Jordi Hays?

  Okay, okay, okay. Let's, let's actually just run this. So I got an extremely important promoted post today. From, and it's actually a recommendation from none other than Will Minidis.

• 1:08:35John Coogan?

  He's gonna be so pissed that we're leaking this out.

• 1:08:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. This honestly, I doubt he's bought it, actually pulled the trigger yet. So we're gonna sell it out, Will.

• 1:08:42John Coogan?

  He had a couple of other options. We're highlighting the one that we think most aligns with our brand.

• 1:08:46Jordi Hays?

  We have a fantastic looking chair here. This is the William Jefferson Clinton Oval Office Chair from The History Company. It's only $3,475 and you know, this thing just looks fantastic. Is this the actual, is this?

• 1:09:01John Coogan?

  It's a replica.

• 1:09:02Jordi Hays?

  It's a replica?

• 1:09:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 1:09:03John Coogan?

  Designed to look like the Oval Office Chair.

• 1:09:05Jordi Hays?

  Should be at least 40.

• 1:09:07John Coogan?

  And I think it's great because you know, if you're an associate at a venture capital firm, you come in, they give you some slop chair. You gotta get that out, bring in your own chair. No one's gonna bother you if you just, oh, I need a more ergonomic chair. I got back problems or something. It's a health issue. They can't stop you.

• 1:09:24Jordi Hays?

  To VC associates, you'll see around SF, a lot of them driving like Valkyries, like you know, some of these hyper cars.

• 1:09:30John Coogan?

  Oh, I8s.

• 1:09:31Jordi Hays?

  I8s, wrapped I8s.

• 1:09:33John Coogan?

  You gotta get the doors to go like this. The Valkyries have a price range.

• 1:09:36Jordi Hays?

  As long as the doors, the doors go up, it's good by many.

• 1:09:39John Coogan?

  Valkyries, GP money.

• 1:09:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:41John Coogan?

  The I8, that's.

• 1:09:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's some associates out there that.

• 1:09:45John Coogan?

  Maybe they're Nepos.

• 1:09:46Jordi Hays?

  I know. Yeah, I met a guy in the Alps a couple of weeks ago that worked for a pretty prominent venture capital fund and is a billionaire through his, through, through his father's, you know, past success. But so some of the, you know, but anyways, great looking chair.

• 1:10:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, highly recommended.

• 1:10:04Jordi Hays?

  Check this out. I don't actually like the, these metal knobs here, but the, what's really gonna be in Zoom is this top section and it looks very regal.

• 1:10:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:15Jordi Hays?

  And.

• 1:10:15John Coogan?

  Some other options, but highly recommend getting a nice chair.

• 1:10:18Jordi Hays?

  Check out The History Company and tell them the Technology Brothers and Will Minidis sent you.

• 1:10:25John Coogan?

  Yeah. Let's go to a bucket poll from Ally. She says, dating a VC must be so funny because imagine being in the middle of a fight. And he says, babe, let's think about this from first principles.

• 1:10:36Jordi Hays?

  Hey, let me see this. So, so this, wow, two and a half K. That's, that's a banger. Nice, nice work, Ally. Ally's fiance or husband or boyfriend? I don't, I don't actually know. No, he's the, Ally's, Ally's significant other.

• 1:10:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Jordi Hays?

  Posted in late December, if I can get a Robin Hood gold card, I will tat-

• 1:11:00John Coogan?

  Got it.

• 1:11:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I will, I will tattoo the Robin Hood logo on my arm, Brex- so this guy Brexton. And, um, uh, he got his gold card.

• 1:11:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:09Jordi Hays?

  And he got a Robin Hood tattoo on, it's an absolute piece on his shoulder.

• 1:11:14John Coogan?

  It's big too.

• 1:11:15Jordi Hays?

  It's pretty big, it's pretty prominent. I'm curious if it's his first ever tattoo.

• 1:11:18John Coogan?

  He should keep doing this and just get logoed up everywhere.

• 1:11:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21John Coogan?

  Like a NASCAR.

• 1:11:23Jordi Hays?

  It would be interesting to, to go to these companies and say, you know, I'll get this logo, but I need a hundred dollars a month for the rest of my life. And it's like a bulletproof contract.

• 1:11:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:34Jordi Hays?

  And it's like, you can pay it out early.

• 1:11:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:36Jordi Hays?

  You know, at, at like, you know, for like 80 years.

• 1:11:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:40Jordi Hays?

  If you want to just get it all upfront, or you can just keep, keep me on the payroll forever.

• 1:11:44John Coogan?

  Correct.

• 1:11:44Jordi Hays?

  So.

• 1:11:44John Coogan?

  Great.

• 1:11:45Jordi Hays?

  You load it up and you could probably get a UBI off that. That might be one of the last jobs. Let's just get a.

• 1:11:50John Coogan?

  Walking billboard.

• 1:11:51Jordi Hays?

  A walking billboard.

• 1:11:52John Coogan?

  He was looking pretty jacked when I saw it.

• 1:11:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. I think he just wanted an excuse to post. To flex.

• 1:11:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, for sure, for sure.

• 1:11:58Jordi Hays?

  Nice work, Brexton. Ally.

• 1:12:00John Coogan?

  We respect it, fine.

• 1:12:01Jordi Hays?

  I'm curious, we should, we should get Ally's opinion on the Robin Hood tat.

• 1:12:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:04Jordi Hays?

  She's got opinions.

• 1:12:06John Coogan?

  She's like, it's great. I love when my, my, my partner is stupid.

• 1:12:10Jordi Hays?

  The gold card better be, live up to the hype.

• 1:12:12John Coogan?

  Yeah. It does look beautiful. Um, let's go to Luke Metro. He says, it must be really, it must really suck to be too smart to make money in crypto, but too dumb to make money in AI.

• 1:12:25Jordi Hays?

  That's just brutally real.

• 1:12:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Jordi Hays?

  That, hey, podcasting.

• 1:12:32John Coogan?

  I mean, there are so.

• 1:12:33Jordi Hays?

  Podcasting's a nice, a nice, you know, middle ground.

• 1:12:35John Coogan?

  Keep seeing these, you keep seeing these, uh, what's the latest coin, fart coin that just mooned or something? There's so many just super stupid ones. And it's like, yeah, anyone rational or intelligent would just be like, this can't possibly happen. But then the really gigabrain, they can figure out that no, this one's going to meme.

• 1:12:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:53John Coogan?

  The Joe Bowden coin or whatever.

• 1:12:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but even that one ended up flopping.

• 1:12:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, they all do, but it's about the timing. It's about Ponzi-nomics and planning it correctly.

• 1:13:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03John Coogan?

  But, oh well. So always, always some opportunity. There's always a bull market somewhere.

• 1:13:08Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 1:13:09John Coogan?

  Let's go to Jack Suslow. He says, one cold email at a time, I built my life.

• 1:13:15Jordi Hays?

  Thought that was cool.

• 1:13:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. It was at A16Z Games. I wonder, I would like to see the cold email that he sent to get that job. Share it, Jack. Through the story.

• 1:13:27Jordi Hays?

  It's funny because everybody has, you know, I would hope that everybody listening has positive stories around cold emails. But you always remember the negatives. There's this one guy, it wasn't even a fully cold email that I met in college. Because there's one company here in Santa Barbara, Decker Brands, they own Hoka, Ugg and a bunch of other companies. Great business, like 20 billion dollar company, you know, shoe companies when they have hit shoes do really well. And I met him at the gym and he's like, here, just, I was like, I'd love, like, let me like intern for you, work for you, whatever, I'll do anything. Like, here's what I'm good at. He's like, yeah, just follow up the email and like longest, most thoughtful email, no response. Kept seeing him at the gym. Didn't, I was just like.

• 1:14:08John Coogan?

  She's a hair stabbing, send 75 emails.

• 1:14:10Jordi Hays?

  75 emails, send emails until they, they, they beg you to stop or give you a job. But then do it a hundred times. You gotta do, like, the volume is so key. So, um, this is like, you know, the Balda method, like, he didn't just send a couple of good replies. He sent hundreds and he kept going.

• 1:14:28John Coogan?

  Crafting.

• 1:14:28Jordi Hays?

  And I'm talking to him in a couple of.

• 1:14:30John Coogan?

  He's actually a great poster. It's fantastic. I feel like he's, he's also just gotten, become a better poster.

• 1:14:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. No, but, but cold emails are, are like little lottery tickets. Like every time you post on X, it's like a little lottery ticket.

• 1:14:42John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:14:42Jordi Hays?

  You're buying with your time.

• 1:14:43John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:14:44Jordi Hays?

  And, um.

• 1:14:45John Coogan?

  But keep it concise.

• 1:14:46Jordi Hays?

  Send it.

• 1:14:46John Coogan?

  Keep it concise. Let's do another promoted post.

• 1:14:49Jordi Hays?

  Promoted post, uh, we got a promoted post from Max Broder Erbus. Max, I'm sorry for butchering your name, but he says, um, he has a company called Gumloop, which just got out of, uh, just got out of YC. And, um.

• 1:15:09John Coogan?

  What do they do?

• 1:15:09Jordi Hays?

  They're doing some.

• 1:15:12Jordi Hays?

  It looked like something within the realm of Zapier. I'm trying to remember now. I don't have any actual backstory on it, but the more important thing is

• 1:15:22Jordi Hays?

  they raised a $17 million series A straight out of Y C. And Max says that Gumloop will be a 10 person, $1 billion company. They have six spots left. So this is a company that got four, uh, four people, took them to a $17 million series A.

• 1:15:39John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:15:39Jordi Hays?

  So they must be doing something cool.

• 1:15:41John Coogan?

  Seventeen or seven?

• 1:15:42Jordi Hays?

  Seventeen million.

• 1:15:43John Coogan?

  Seventeen million series?

• 1:15:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:44John Coogan?

  Wow. Okay.

• 1:15:45Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Sean from My First Million is in there.

• 1:15:48John Coogan?

  Cool.

• 1:15:49Jordi Hays?

  But anyways, cool opportunity. Uh, go hit up Max and, um,

• 1:15:54John Coogan?

  Tell them the technology brother sent you.

• 1:15:56Jordi Hays?

  Tell them TB sent you.

• 1:15:58John Coogan?

  Oh, I like this one. Casey says, I got a bucket pull here. Casey says, I cannot overstate how valuable it is to have a regular gathering. You can invite wonderful people to as you meet them. It's often the difference between that guy was cool. I wonder what he's up to and gaining a new friend and/or collaborator. So this is like the, the bro movie nights that we do.

• 1:16:20Jordi Hays?

  Is that?

• 1:16:20John Coogan?

  I'm gonna say Casey. Uh, this is just a bucket pull.

• 1:16:23Jordi Hays?

  No, this is cool. I, I mean, it's so, so the, this is, um,

• 1:16:27John Coogan?

  People do this with their poker nights, with their cigar nights.

• 1:16:30Jordi Hays?

  And, and kind of sort of working remote.

• 1:16:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:33Jordi Hays?

  Cause people in LA, I feel like just have to kind of, if you're in tech, you have to be like pretty remote in terms of how you work with people and meet people. Cause there's not that many people here. And, um, that is a downside of like, well, there's only one Friday night every week.

• 1:16:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:48Jordi Hays?

  If you want to get a bunch of people together and then it's, once you have kids, you know, you're sacri, if you're meeting up with, you know, work oriented people, you're missing out on time with your family. So

• 1:16:58John Coogan?

  This is why.

• 1:16:58Jordi Hays?

  Getting four, five, six, 10, 20 people together at once.

• 1:17:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Jordi Hays?

  Has a pretty amazing.

• 1:17:04John Coogan?

  This is why it's so important to get a box at every F1 race because then there's always something coming up. You can just say, oh, I'm in, I'm in Austin, Texas.

• 1:17:11Jordi Hays?

  This is, this is why we're gonna, we're gonna.

• 1:17:13John Coogan?

  Miami guys.

• 1:17:13Jordi Hays?

  We're gonna start doing daily TV meetups at the New York Stock Exchange.

• 1:17:18John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:17:18Jordi Hays?

  Some, one of the brothers recommended this. Um, and I think it'd be very cool. Let's meet at the bowl every morning.

• 1:17:23John Coogan?

  Every morning.

• 1:17:24Jordi Hays?

  Just pray, you know, pray to the bowl.

• 1:17:26John Coogan?

  Pray to the bowl.

• 1:17:27Jordi Hays?

  Um, we got time for one more post and then we gotta.

• 1:17:30John Coogan?

  Little jet, but we'll see you tomorrow. Because the pod never sleeps. Uh, Wilmanitis, let's close with him. He says, I think it will shock everyone how short-lived the AGI fortunes will be. Secular nuts and bolts rationalism will not produce modern Rockefellers. They have failed at real institution building. They have weak family structures, polyamory, et cetera, and no transcendent morals. It's a once in a generation bag fumble. We're about to watch hundreds of billions get made and wasted on small dogs, luxury Marina apartments and tasteless Napa homes.

• 1:18:06John Coogan?

  Roasted, roasted. But I, I mean, I completely agree. Like you look at the, uh, uh, I mean, have you seen Citizen Kane?

• 1:18:14Jordi Hays?

  Uh, no.

• 1:18:15John Coogan?

  Oh, man. Fantastic movie. It's a beast to get through it and what it's a very different experience than like a modern movie. But, uh, you know, it's, it's basically the story of William Randolph Hearst. Hearst built Hearst Castle. Have you ever been to Hearst Castle? It's like in central California and it's like this insane castle. It's literally just a castle. It's like these ornate pools, indoor pools, outdoor pools, just built by this like magnet. And it just like became this structure that like couldn't just be like absorbed by the market. So it became this museum essentially. And, and, and that's, that's always my hope. When people say like, you know, the elites aren't bad. We just need better elites. Like you need elites that care about aesthetics, care about taste. Exactly. That treatment is going to build something that will live on past him.

• 1:19:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00John Coogan?

  Both in the company sense and also in, I'm, I'm sure whatever he winds up building in the.

• 1:19:04Jordi Hays?

  The Laugill monument.

• 1:19:06John Coogan?

  Exactly. So yeah, if you wind up making an AGI fortune, call Will, make some good decisions and build a dynasty that will live on for centuries. And thanks for tuning in. We'll see you tomorrow.

• 1:19:20Jordi Hays?

  Before we go, go, uh, rate us five stars and, and leave a funny review.

• 1:19:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Jordi Hays?

  I want everyone to leave reviews.

• 1:19:29John Coogan?

  Send us a screenshot.

• 1:19:29Jordi Hays?

  On the app.

• 1:19:30John Coogan?

  Get creative.

• 1:19:30Jordi Hays?

  Send us a screen. If you leave a creative review, send us a screenshot. We'll read it out here.

• 1:19:35John Coogan?

  Here we go.

• 1:19:35Jordi Hays?

  You can even leave a review. That's just an ad for your business.

• 1:19:38John Coogan?

  There we go.

• 1:19:38Jordi Hays?

  Read it out on the podcast.

• 1:19:39John Coogan?

  That's good.

• 1:19:40Jordi Hays?

  So go, whatever podcast player you use.

• 1:19:43John Coogan?

  This is a great, this is a great podcast. I love it. Also, this, this review is sponsored by my company.

• 1:19:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:19:49John Coogan?

  Easy.

• 1:19:49Jordi Hays?

  We'll read it out here on the next.

• 1:19:51John Coogan?

  If you don't have a company, sell the ad inventory. Call another company.

• 1:19:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, call a friend. Call a friend and say, hey,

• 1:19:57John Coogan?

  I'm gonna do.

• 1:19:58Jordi Hays?

  The most profitable podcast in the world. I have a free ad slot.

• 1:20:01John Coogan?

  I'm free.

• 1:20:01Jordi Hays?

  Give me, give me five grand. I'll send you the clip and we'll clip it.

• 1:20:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:05Jordi Hays?

  And, uh,

• 1:20:05John Coogan?

  It's good work.

• 1:20:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so I wanna, I wanna see a lot of reviews cuz I love ads. And I want the opportunity to read more of them. So, thank you, everyone, and we'll see you next time.

• 1:20:13John Coogan?

  Thanks a lot. Talk to you later.