Ken Goldberg (roboticist)

Ken Goldberg (Why Don’t We Have Better Robots Yet?) is an award-winning artist, roboticist, and engineering professor. Ken joins the Armchair Expert to discuss being born in Nigeria, growing up in rough and tumble City of Brotherly Love, and on how that taught him how to not take things lying down. Ken and Dax address the elephant panties in the room, how a course he took in 1981 began his trajectory in robotics and AI, and the tragic archetype of Pygmalion and the hubris of falling in love with your creation. Ken explains the Czechoslovakian etymology of the word “robot,” why don’t we have better robots yet, and how he stays optimistic doing a job predicated on failure. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. My friend is here today. Ken Goldberg, you'll hear our origin story, but I met him somewhere. I was judgmental of him, then of course I fell in love with him. And now I'm just smitten with this gentleman. Ken Goldberg is the Williams S Floyd Distinguished Chair in Engineering at UC Berkeley and an award-winning roboticist, filmmaker, artist and public speaker on AI and robotics. Now, really quick, I've read a couple of comments that people are over AI. I get it. People feel a little inundated and I get it. It's the topic of the day. A, this isn't very heavy in AI talk. And then, um, B, this is a million times more playful than you could ever imagine robotics could be.

• 0:45Dax Shepard?

  I'll also add that he has an art exhibit that is, uh, going until March. Uh, don't wait till then, go now at Skirball. If you live in LA or are visiting Skirball Cultural Center in LA. And it's called Ancient Wisdom for a Future Ecology Trees, Time and Technology. Very, very cool, um, art project with these tree rings that are gorgeous and very creative. Ken Goldberg, I love you. I think y'all will love him too. Please enjoy. We get support from Quince.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Okay. Can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself. Cause let's be honest, self-gifting is a love language.

• 1:34Dax Shepard?

  Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high-quality staples are made with premium materials like a hundred percent Mongolian cashmere, 14 karat gold and Italian leather, full-on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  It's the dream. The cashmere sweater is starting at $60. Down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.

• 2:01Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm going to tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California. And I'm so excited and I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:10Dax Shepard?

  And I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here and it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 2:36Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Medium Fries and a Drink is now $8. Okay, I need to talk about something that doesn't get enough respect. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese. This is not a casual burger. This is a crafted burger. We're talking 100% fresh beef cooked right when you order it.

• 3:20Dax Shepard?

  No artificial flavors, no fillers, no preservatives, just beef doing what beef is supposed to do. And here's a detail I love. There's a cowbell sound in the kitchen. When somebody orders a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, a cowbell goes off and the grill master throws a fresh patty down. That's like having your own entrance music at McDonald's. I want a cowbell for everything in life. The onions are hand-topped by someone who just knows the right amount. Two slices of cheese laid out in a star pattern, so every single bite gets cheese. And two pickles side by side, so you're never in a pickle desert. Every bite is accounted for. Someone engineered this thing with love. I love a Quarter Pounder.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Me too. That's my order. It's a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. I love it. I didn't know they put so much effort that they did a star formation. I should have known because you can taste it.

• 4:09Dax Shepard?

  You can taste it. Yeah, the love. Don't tell anyone this, but I'll put two of them back.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not surprised.

• 4:16Dax Shepard?

  The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Fries and a Drink, now $8 for a limited time only, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery. Fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery.

• 4:51Dax Shepard?

  Ken, take a seat.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Get comfy.

• 4:52Dax Shepard?

  I prepped Monica by saying, "You're gonna really like my friend Ken. If Fred Armisen was a roboticist, this would be Ken."

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:02Dax Shepard?

  And I think maybe, am I unique in that comparison? Or have you ever heard that before?

• 5:06Speaker 02

  I remember you saying that. I own hear it a lot, but I take it as a compliment.

• 5:10Dax Shepard?

  You should. He's one of our favorite.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  We love him.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Really?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:14Dax Shepard?

  Very unicorn-y, like you.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Unicorn-y, though, is that rare?

• 5:18Dax Shepard?

  Rule out the corny part. Focus on the unicorn part of that.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  It is mixed messages because he calls people unicorns he likes, but then he also says he doesn't like unicorns. So it is tricky. There's confusion.

• 5:29Dax Shepard?

  You're right to be confused.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Okay, all right, because I don't know if you meant rare as a human being.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Rare and special.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Rare and special. Okay, I'll take that.

• 5:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, rare, unique, special, colorful, vibrant.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Corn.

• 5:40Dax Shepard?

  Playful.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Oh, love it. Love it. Good.

• 5:43Dax Shepard?

  I think we should start with how we met, because I would love to hear your perspective. I have a very specific perspective. And I don't even know if I let you in on the full details.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Well, I'm curious now.

• 5:53Dax Shepard?

  So you and I were at a conference, and it's the kind of conference I would have never imagined getting invited to. There's a lot of people there, like yourself, professors and stuff, and I'm a...

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Smarty pants.

• 6:03Dax Shepard?

  Smarty pants, billionaires. A fun group, actually. And we're walking into this event, and they are very militant about everyone wearing name tags, as they should be, because everyone there thinks everyone knows their name, but people don't know each other's names. So I see this guy with crazy hair, and he doesn't have a name tag on.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Fucking the system.

• 6:22Dax Shepard?

  I'm like this, which is funny, because I should immediately love that. I should go, "Yeah, fuck these name tags." That's my essence. But for some reason, because I've complied.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:32Dax Shepard?

  Who does this guy think he's so famous? He's the only one here that doesn't need a name tag. So I'm immediately a little triggered. And I say to Chris, I'm like, "Who's this guy with the wild hair? Doesn't have a name tag on?" And then by luck, somehow I hear your name, Ken Goldberg. And then I immediately go into the back. Bathroom, okay? I go into the bathroom before the little event starts. You don't know any of this. What? Don't worry, you're not being led in a bad direction.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:55Dax Shepard?

  I go into the bathroom and I Google you and I see robot professor at Berkeley. And I immediately am like, that's a cool job. Okay, so he's not a billionaire who thinks he doesn't need to wear a name tag. This guy's just kind of an absent minded genius, maybe.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz I didn't know about the name tag.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  That says so much more about Dax than it does about you.

• 7:18Dax Shepard?

  These are all my shortcomings and character defects. But they work out beautifully because then, 20 minutes later, and most of the things we were sitting through the seminars were very AI heavy. And I have a chip on my shoulder about AI. So then now I'm standing next to you randomly. And this is probably where I would enter your life story. Cuz I just lean over to you and I say, you're a robotics professor, yeah? And you go, yeah. These robots are like so far away from doing our laundry and working on our car for us or doing anything, really. It's like they keep saying AI is gonna take over everything. You're gonna be a leisure class. You know, what are we gonna do with all this? And I'm like, where are the fucking robots? And you go, oh, I'm so delighted this is your question.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  All right, so shall I tell you my side of this?

• 8:01Dax Shepard?

  Yes, please. Well, I'll just wrap it up by saying, within 30 seconds of talking to you, I'm like, oh, there's my favorite guy here by a long shot. I hope I'm at every dinner with him. And then we since developed a friendship.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yes. Okay, I remember that I was in this place also a little intimidated because a lot of A-list people. And I was sitting there and I forget who it was. He was on the stage and you raised a comment and said something about he looked really sharp.

• 8:27Dax Shepard?

  Pharrell.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Pharrell. Yeah.

• 8:29Dax Shepard?

  I think I said like, he was really dazzling.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah. And I just love the way you said that. I thought it was such an unusual thing to say. It was spot on, but it was just the kind of thing that nobody would normally say.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, unicorny.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Very unicorny. And so I think it was after the lunch or something. I saw you standing over there and I just went over and I said, hey, I love that comment you made. And then we started talking. That's how I remember it. I didn't know anything about you.

• 8:56Dax Shepard?

  You must have known Kristen.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  No, we were just having this fun conversation and you guys were so charming. And then Tiffany came over.

• 9:02Dax Shepard?

  Your wife.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  My wife.

• 9:04Dax Shepard?

  Also dazzling and unicorny.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Yes, we walked away and she said, you don't know who they were? And I was like, no.

• 9:11Dax Shepard?

  I hear funny bullshit.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  And then we had several great conversations at that thing.

• 9:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it was really, really comforting to hear you say that as someone who is an authority in the space because I've heard many people lecture on AI and I'm hearing all of the, what are you peeking at?

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Is there underwear on the floor?

• 9:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh my god.

• 9:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I gotta walk the so sorry can, but obviously this needs to be addressed. That took me, that took me a second. Okay, so here's what happened. I just put the pieces together.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  There's an explanation.

• 9:46Dax Shepard?

  There is. Monica and I did a commercial yesterday, as I told you.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  You told me that.

• 9:51Dax Shepard?

  When I arrived, I changed my clothes and I put them in a bag and I'd brought a bag of extra shoes and pants they asked me to bring. And then I threw this sweater in there and then that underwear was in there and then I just threw on my sweater just now.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 10:06Dax Shepard?

  Clearly my panties were attached and now they've fallen off.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 10:11Dax Shepard?

  For the viewer, I would be so angry if I didn't get this.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  We don't need to see that.

• 10:15Dax Shepard?

  You have to if you're watching and you're like, everyone's seen these panties and I'm not.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Wouldn't you throw your computer out the car?

• 10:21Dax Shepard?

  I love it. Full disclosure. Okay, so these are the offensive panties.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  They look like they have elephants.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  They do.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Quite nice.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  It's Mandy's, a former sponsor.

• 10:31Dax Shepard?

  Are you being polite that was quite nice or do I now have a Christmas idea for you?

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Well, actually, yeah, I'm gonna buy a pair of them. I like.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Mandy's is a great brand.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Really? It's a brand of, okay, I'm always looking for good.

• 10:42Dax Shepard?

  Very comfortable, very playful.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  It's almost as if, if they were a current sponsor, we planned all that. That would be great.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Placement.

• 10:49Dax Shepard?

  Paola.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Sorry, I just had to call that out.

• 10:52Dax Shepard?

  Yes. The look on your face, I thought there was maybe a squirrel under my chair.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Well, it was a little surprising. Kind of thinking like, what else was going on?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, there was some implication.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  This is video, so I know people can see that there's something on the floor, so I had to say it.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  Glad you did, because if you had just not said it, it would have been sort of like this lingering presence.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  An elephant in the room, if you will.

• 11:14Dax Shepard?

  Elephant in the room. Oh my god, did they now feel really planted?

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Oh my god, that is brilliant.

• 11:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh my god.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Oh man.

• 11:26Dax Shepard?

  We're not gonna top that in the episode. We should wrap it up. Okay, so back to AI. Everyone's quite scared and I think there's a lot of reasons to be scared. But also I think maybe we're a little more panicked than we need to be. I just found you to be a kind of a comforting force.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Oh, good, good, good.

• 11:39Dax Shepard?

  So we became friends and you've been over and we love you and your wife. And you're also an artist, so you're impossibly interesting. Let's start though with, of course, you would be born in Nigeria.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 11:49Dax Shepard?

  Ah, is that where you were born?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  I was.

• 11:51Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  How did that happen?

• 11:57Speaker 02

  So my parents were idealists during the 60s and they were at Penn in Philadelphia and they were going on civil rights marches and things like that. So they wanted to continue that idea of doing things for civil rights. So when they were graduating, they wrote to various people in Africa and they said, "We'd love to help." And so one person who ran a school there, and he's actually quite famous in Nigeria, Ty Shalaren, he invited them to come to his school and work for two years. So they basically got over there and there was no running water and no electricity when they got there. So it was very rough and they lived kind of under these circumstances. My dad taught physics and my mom taught English.

• 12:38Dax Shepard?

  They were graduate students at Penn or undergrad?

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Undergrads, they just finished their undergrad.

• 12:43Dax Shepard?

  Also, they were ahead of the curve because you were born in 61?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:46Dax Shepard?

  So the civil rights movement in its full velocity is later.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a good point. It was starting. Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, has a lot of integration, great history there. And so they were starting there, but that was also around the time of Nigerian independence. There was a real movement across Africa. I was very proud of them. I'm still proud of them for doing that.

• 13:06Dax Shepard?

  Were you delivered at a hospital?

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I always thought it must have been an accident because like, why would you do that?

• 13:13Dax Shepard?

  Who would plan?

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  And so I never asked because it was like that elephant in the room. I just didn't want to know. But a couple of years ago, my mom said, "We wanted to have a baby because we had all this time together and we knew it would be a time to focus on you." So I was born in a hospital nearby called Abaddon, which is About an hour from this village, but I have a really big vaccination mark.

• 13:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  From that.

• 13:36Dax Shepard?

  My father had that one, right? Is it the size of like a quarter?

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:39Dax Shepard?

  And indented?

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and it's a specific vaccine that would do that, I think.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  I think you're right. I don't know what it is, but yes, exactly.

• 13:45Dax Shepard?

  I would gaze at it on my father's shoulder all the time. Looked like someone put a cigar out in us.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Yes, that's it. That's a great way to put it. That's exactly what it is. Oh my God.

• 13:54Dax Shepard?

  What if that was the vaccine? The doctor just lit up a cigar. How long were you there as a baby?

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Just six months.

• 14:01Dax Shepard?

  And did you get any kind of citizenship out of that deal?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  No, I looked into that too, because I thought it'd be nice to have a dual citizenship.

• 14:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, be getting a hot water up there?

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  No, but apparently you can't have both. They don't allow it.

• 14:14Dax Shepard?

  They're like, fuck you, you're not a side dish.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  You can't have both, yeah.

• 14:17Dax Shepard?

  Or the entree.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Right. So then you do grow up in, I guess, would it be a suburb of Philadelphia? Yeah, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Steel Town.

• 14:26Dax Shepard?

  Right, Bethlehem Steel.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my parents come back there because my dad was a metallurgist.

• 14:31Dax Shepard?

  Well, this is fascinating.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  In addition to being a physics teacher?

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, physics was what he could teach as a, he was an engineering undergrad. So then he went back and he actually got his PhD at Ohio State. And then we moved to Bethlehem. Bethlehem was known for where the time and motion studies were done. There's a whole history of scientific management. You know about this? Frederick Taylor?

• 14:53Dax Shepard?

  No, but is this to increase productivity through the scientific method or something?

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 14:57Dax Shepard?

  Tell us.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  All right, so this is fascinating. You've heard of time and motion studies, you know, where they have a stopwatch? And they would time people doing their work?

• 15:04Dax Shepard?

  Hadn't heard of that.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Just to see for productivity?

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, efficiency experts.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  This is very big in the early part of this 20th century.

• 15:12Dax Shepard?

  Datafying.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Yes, making work scientific by quantifying it. So what they would do is they had all these things, mostly stopwatches back then, but they would time how long it took you to, say, carry a shovel of ore from one end of this lot to another. And then they would clock people and then they would try and get them to increase their speeds. And so this guy wrote this book called The Scientific Management, something like that. And it was very influential on Stalin.

• 15:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yes, but workers hated it.

• 15:40Dax Shepard?

  Sure. For obvious reasons.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Rushing.

• 15:42Dax Shepard?

  You're getting enough efficiency out of me.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that was this whole thing was that you could increase the productivity of the average worker by a factor of two or more. If you follow these methods, but it would squeeze the workers to the breaking point. So they didn't like it, but it became popular until unions came and pushed back. But this whole wave was still around in the form of industrial engineering, which is actually the department I'm in at Berkeley, which used to do these kind of studies where it was sort of how do you arrange your office to be the most efficient?

• 16:09Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Or the assembly line to be most efficient for workers and now machines.

• 16:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, and by the way, and we'll just earmark this, among the AI accomplishments that I find most fascinating is their ability to make things more efficient. I know there was a server farm they let AI loose on and it had been studied forever. And within hours, it figured out how to make it like 30% more efficient or something crazy.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So energy efficient.

• 16:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  So they could lower the amount of electricity it used, which is really undeniably good thing. That's good for the environment and everything else.

• 16:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay. So you're growing up in Bethlehem.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:44Dax Shepard?

  Mom and dad didn't teach in your childhood?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  No, he was working at the research lab. Actually, she did. She taught at the elementary school. We were very close. She was a great mom. I was lucky. It was a good town to grow up in, but a little rough and tumble because you had to fight.

• 16:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. So here's my guess, because I'm from Detroit. And so you have this enormous working class. Many of the folks had migrated up from Kentucky to fulfill these roles. So you have this culture of pride and yeah, violence was on the table at all.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yes. So it's interesting you say that pride thing. I didn't know about that, but the pecking order was all about fighting and kids would call you out. Say, I'll see you after school and you had to do it. Everyone would go watch.

• 17:20Dax Shepard?

  And there'd be a few additional fights for the people who got excited watching the first fight.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 17:25Dax Shepard?

  The most dangerous thing was watching one of those fights because afterwards there's going to be a few more.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Another fight would break out. I mean, I had both my front teeth knocked out.

• 17:32Dax Shepard?

  You did? In what grade?

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Like 10th grade.

• 17:35Dax Shepard?

  In school?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Okay. So the story is that I was at a party and a girl asked me to take her home because she was having a fight with her boyfriend.

• 17:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  And I was being a nice guy, I thought. And I drove her and then I didn't even know who her boyfriend, but she said it was Eddie.

• 17:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  It was a very tough guy.

• 17:54Dax Shepard?

  Perfect name for him.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I was like, oh no, that's not good. I did not want it across Eddie. And so next thing I know, we had gone over and I dropped her at her friend's and the doorbell rings and it was Eddie. I came out and Eddie just cocked me right in the mouth.

• 18:11Dax Shepard?

  Right out of the gate.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Right out of the gate, like a sucker punch. And I remember it was snowing and all this blood on the snow. Yeah, and that was my front teeth.

• 18:20Dax Shepard?

  Now, do you have the same thing I have, which is we're both really lucky and we're running in circles that are mostly people that are college bound and stuff. And I try to explain the level of violence that was kind of ever present. I can tell there's no connection to what I'm saying. And then I wonder, was it an era? Do you wonder if it's still like that in Bethlehem? Because I'm curious, was that just our generation?

• 18:40Speaker 02

  I don't know. It's interesting because it wasn't talked about. You know, we didn't report it. I don't remember it even occurring to me to even tell anyone.

• 18:46Dax Shepard?

  You did.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I wasn't gonna.

• 18:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, that would lead to more abuse.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Probably. So you just sucked it up and you took it. It was definitely rough, although, you know, it's interesting because now the way it does come up. A few years ago, I was in this academic setting and this guy double crossed me. And he basically said, well, we're going to do it my way. And I remember sitting across from him and I was really upset because I had put all this work into something and he was basically going to trash it and put somebody else in to take the credit. And I said, you don't know, but where I come from, I don't stand for that. I said, I'm gonna really.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  You have your hands full.

• 19:23Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna get physical.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I'm not gonna get physical. No, I didn't say. Somehow, I can't remember actually the language, but I wasn't saying I'm gonna hit you, but I was gonna basically say, I'm gonna come back, I'm gonna fight this.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, not pushover.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not gonna just take this lane down.

• 19:37Dax Shepard?

  For better or worse, at least in my experience, you walk away with this weird paradigm, which is it's better to get beat up and stand up for yourself. Because if you don't, it's going to lead to so much more suffering. It's just an equation. You come to accept it and that's it.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  All right, so how do you feel about bullies?

• 19:53Dax Shepard?

  Number one pet peeve in life is bullies.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Bullies.

• 19:56Dax Shepard?

  I hate bullies.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  I hate them.

• 19:58Dax Shepard?

  I was big, so I can't claim that I was some victim, but I also was a punk rock skateboarder, snowboarder, so I was alternative. Bullies for me was a big, big thing.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  I've learned that the best way to deal with them was to stand up to them, even if they were bigger than you. And then oftentimes, they would cave in. They were cowards.

• 20:15Dax Shepard?

  And or they would at least move to someone else who wasn't gonna. Standing up for themselves. They'd pick another guy. You only gotta kinda do it once or twice.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting, cuz there was a big reputation thing. It was very weird. You had this whole pecking order, and so people knew not to mess with you, and you had to be in a few fights, and then people would lay off.

• 20:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, then you could exist. Okay, but now, back to-

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Wild.

• 20:33Dax Shepard?

  So you did engineering-type stuff with dad. You were bonding with dad over that as a kid. But then you decided you kinda wanted to be an artist at some point?

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, because my mom was an artist. She would paint, and she took us to this art school in the neighboring town. And I really loved that. They were both into modern art and would take us to museums-

• 20:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Like in New York, or Philadelphia. Philadelphia Museum, I have very fond memories.

• 20:58Dax Shepard?

  They discouraged you from pursuing that?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember talking to my mother and saying, "I think I'm gonna major in art." And she said, "Oh, great. You can major in art after you finish your engineering degree."

• 21:09Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  That's a very immigrant parent thing to do, actually. So that's funny.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Well, it was also because my parents had a lot of financial troubles growing up. And so it was hard, cuz there were times when we didn't go on vacation for many years. I wanna be really careful, cuz I don't wanna sound like we were suffering, like there was some real poverty out there. And we weren't facing that. But we had money problems, and my mom and dad would fight a lot about that.

• 21:33Dax Shepard?

  See, that's, I think, the most relevant aspect, is was it this concept in your life that every time it was brought up, you saw fear on the faces of the adults, and it was the cause of fighting? And it is this big elephant panties in the room? I think just once you have that association with it. So yes, there were a lot of people poorer than me, but I was a single mom, and I still have the most unrealistic relationship with money to this day. It's just so grounded in fear that there's really nothing I can do to overcome it.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, a simple thing is like, whenever I look at a menu, I'm always studying the price.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Still.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I would never order the most expensive thing on the menu.

• 22:12Dax Shepard?

  And you could.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's interesting, cuz I'll contrast that with my wife, and she'll say, "What do you think of this dress?" And I'll come over, and I'll be like, "What does it cost?"

• 22:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, first question.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  I didn't, you know, she doesn't know.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:23Dax Shepard?

  She's evaluating if it's beautiful.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  But the first thing I'm looking at is the price before I try something. I want to know if I could even afford it.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Right, even though you can.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Probably, but you're still in that mind. Totally.

• 22:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh, how about this, without revealing your net worth? Let's just say if you had a billion dollars, don't you think you'd probably still be the same way?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:44Dax Shepard?

  That's what I'm saying, that it's an irrational relationship with it. It's not grounded in the facts at all.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  No, no, it's true. Another pet peeve is if I'm in a hotel or something and you know how they charge like $20 for a Diet Coke? And then they deliver it and it's an additional delivery charge and a tip on top of it.

• 23:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  And then it comes to you, you gotta give a tip on top of that. So it's like gonna be $40.

• 23:05Dax Shepard?

  Triple digits for a Diet Coke. That actually triggers a second issue I have, which is, and we had an expert on talking about this bias of being taken advantage of to be the sucker. So then I have two things going. I've got my financial insecurity and then I have like, these people think I'm a fucking idiot. Like I'm a sucker. I'm gonna pay this much for a diet. So it's a lot going on. So you do what they urge you to do and then you go to Penn and you double major in economics and in?

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Engineering.

• 23:31Dax Shepard?

  Summa cum laude in both.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:34Dax Shepard?

  That's wild. For a double major, that's impressive.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  I was a double major and I was also summa. We won't say what the majors were.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  That might dilute what I'm saying.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  You were a double major too?

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, for the same reason, because I wanted to do theater. My parents were like, probably not. You're gonna need to do something else.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Safety net.

• 23:54Dax Shepard?

  A realistic plan in place as well.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Cause it's risky to be an artist, for sure.

• 23:59Dax Shepard?

  So then you go to graduate school at Carnegie Mellon and you get a PhD in computer science.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay, but you have a trip, you study abroad in Edinburgh.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:08Dax Shepard?

  Which by the way, when I read Edinburgh today, I was like, isn't it Edinburgh?

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:13Dax Shepard?

  It is Edinburgh?

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Oh, it's Edinburgh.

• 24:15Dax Shepard?

  But we don't have an O at the end of that.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  I know, but that's the way it is.

• 24:18Dax Shepard?

  This language is madness.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  I know. But it is Edinburgh.

• 24:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay, thank God. I thought I was insane. I'm like, I've been saying that wrong for 30 years.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  You're absolutely right, but I'm glad you brought that up because that was a huge turning point in my life.

• 24:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, tell me, where in this eight year schooling?

• 24:33Speaker 02

  My junior year abroad and also my dad was very sick. He had gotten leukemia. Because he had the plant that was a lot of toxic chemicals and stuff. But then he got remission, so he was feeling better. And I was so stressed with that whole thing, I wanted to take some time off. And Penn had this junior year abroad program. I had never left the country, actually since I was a baby.

• 24:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, right, right, right.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  But I set off in this year-long adventure. Oh, I had so much fun.

• 24:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, junior year, you're like 21, 20?

• 25:01Speaker 02

  19. I remember that distinctly because I remember saying, I'm 19 years old and I'm on my own. And I had a backpack and the Let's Go Europe, this big volume that was my Bible. And I would just travel as much as I could.

• 25:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, Eurail, the train schedule.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, I go all the way to here.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  One of the highlights was going to Morocco.

• 25:20Dax Shepard?

  Back to your continent of birth.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  It's very interesting you say this because this is the story I always like to tell, which is that basically with some friends, it said, let's go somewhere really exotic. We'll go to Morocco. It was over Christmas and we went to Spain, Madrid. And then we were taking the train down and on the train, it was like all these soldiers, everybody was drunken and it was really super fun. And we're having this blast going to the last stop and it was packed. When we get there, we get on the ferry and we all have to turn in our passports for processing. And my mother had warned me, she said, you're going to Morocco, but you're Jewish. It's an Arab country and you should be careful. But I was like, oh, that's ridiculous. And so we get off the ferry and all my friends, there were about three or four of us, they had gotten their passports. I didn't get mine.

• 26:03Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  So we're waiting and then it got stretched into like 45 minutes. And I was like, listen, guys, I think there's going to be a problem. Go ahead, I'll just go back. But I was definitely queasy about what would happen.

• 26:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because you're already now on the side of.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  We were on the other side, but we're still on the ferry because we can't get off without the passports. So then this door opens, I'll never forget this, I can see it like it was yesterday. Across the back of the ferry, I see this guy walking over. He's like in a full kaffiyah headdress, very Arab looking.

• 26:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  And he walking toward us and now I'm starting to think, oh, she was right. Yeah. And then he holds up this passport and he says, Monsieur Gobiers? You know, they're French and I stood forward and then he looks at me, he looks at the passport, he looks at me. And then he throws open his arms and with this big smile with gold teeth, I remember he says, welcome home.

• 26:53Dax Shepard?

  What?

• 26:55Speaker 02

  And I have no idea what he's talking about.

• 26:57Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Oh, that's sweet.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  And then it hits me, just what you said. It was the first time I had set foot on the continent of Africa.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Since you were born. Oh, my God.

• 27:07Dax Shepard?

  Well, on earth does he have any sense of that?

• 27:09Speaker 02

  It's in passport that I was born in Africa, but I have no stamps or anything else.

• 27:12Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  That is like very heartwarming.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  It was wonderful.

• 27:16Dax Shepard?

  The delta between what you were expecting and what came, maybe the biggest delta of your life.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly. I was ready. He was gonna clap you in handcuffs or something.

• 27:26Dax Shepard?

  Welcome home with a hog is incredible.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Also, for people with backgrounds like the both of you, you're expecting the worst thing to happen. So it's really nice to have evidence that it could go a positive way.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 27:38Dax Shepard?

  Sometimes it goes the other way.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Dax Shepard?

  So is it in Edinburgh? At some point, you get introduced to, I guess, the concept of AI?

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Yes. They actually have one of the few AI departments in the world there. I didn't know that.

• 27:51Dax Shepard?

  Is this Edinburgh University?

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had connections with Alan Turing and all the early work in AI. So they had this department, and I remember going into this fair. All the departments have these little tables, geography, art history. And I saw this little table with AI, and I was like, what? And so I walk over, and sure enough, they had a class that you could take in AI.

• 28:12Dax Shepard?

  And this is in 1987?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  1981.

• 28:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, you graduated in 84, sorry.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  81.

• 28:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's early, early.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  And I loved it, and it was a great course. We had a little bit of robotics, a little bit of natural language, and a little bit of computer vision, all these different aspects of AI, and it was so much fun.

• 28:27Dax Shepard?

  So at that point in 1981, what was the robotics component of that course?

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Basically controlling these arms to move in certain ways.

• 28:36Dax Shepard?

  And the kind where you're used to seeing in like automotive assembly plants?

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Those claws. That was big thing was like, how can you get it to just move around on a table or something like that?

• 28:44Dax Shepard?

  Why do you think that was so exciting?

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Well, I loved machines like that. I guess it was partly my dad's influence. We had a go-kart when I was a kid.

• 28:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  I was really into that, and rockets, model rockets were a big thing. And also, of course, I watched those shows like Lost in Space and things, and I liked robots from that.

• 29:02Dax Shepard?

  So you then go and you get Get this PhD in computer science and then you teach at USC for a minute, which is interesting.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I was there yesterday and it's actually so nice to return. It was wonderful. Okay, the story is that when I graduated in nineteen ninety, there were no jobs for robotics. And this comes back to what you were saying earlier. Robotics has had these waves and it was in the trough at that time. It was a backlash to a lot of the over optimism about robots. So there's this thing called AI winters.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've heard from a few people have talked about these.

• 29:36Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yeah, we had Fei Fei Li on.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 29:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and read her book. And they give up on it, then something happens, they come back to it.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yes, since maybe the year two thousand, it's only been positive. There's been no negative. So the students don't know, they've never seen that. But Fei Fei and I, we've lived through it and it's quite dramatic when suddenly everybody decides it's not gonna work and it's not useful and all the funding dries up.

• 29:58Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  That time was very interesting. Japan was on the rise and everybody thought Japan was the future. There was a whole lot of hope that robots were gonna do all the things we're saying today and it didn't work. And so it was dismissed. It was a backlash.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  They were like, we tried it, it didn't work.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 30:14Dax Shepard?

  Am I wrong that even Honda was one of the first big corporations that was like committed some real money to building a robot?

• 30:19Speaker 02

  That was later, but in nineteen ninety, I was looking at jobs in Japan and that was my only option. And then this job at USC came along. I was so lucky. I was so happy that they hired me.

• 30:30Dax Shepard?

  I don't know how you teach here and then you leave at any point. This is a flytrap, LA. The weather's just too good, especially if you're from Pennsylvania.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Especially if you're from Pennsylvania, I know, it was quite good.

• 30:40Dax Shepard?

  Let's add, this is a sincere question. The most shocking thing that occurred to me when I moved to California, I remember it so clearly. I was at a Caro's restaurant, which is like a Denny's. I'm at a booth by myself and there's a guy at a booth by himself and he stares right at me. And I stare at him and I'm now waiting for what happens in Detroit. Like either he looks away, I look away or I go, what's up? That whole exchange, that's just unavoidable where I came from. And then he's just looking at me and I realize this guy's just looking at me and I'm looking at him. We can do this here. That's California. I couldn't believe. Leave, you could just look at somebody.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Okay, so my version of this is that I was visiting California and we were driving from San Francisco down to LA. This is a couple of years before. Someone had figured out that you could go to Esalen in the middle of the night and just go in and experience the hot tubs.

• 31:30Dax Shepard?

  Esalen is this kind of crazy retreat, hippie-ish vibe, nudity's welcomed, right? That's the vibe.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Have you ever been there?

• 31:36Dax Shepard?

  No, but my father weirdly used to go there from Detroit.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  What? Oh, my gosh.

• 31:40Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Well, it's been around for a long time, right? And it's on the coast. I remember we go and it's dark and there's nobody there. And I remember thinking, they're not going to open up in the middle of the night. What are you talking about? So we were standing there and I was like, let's go. And then all of a sudden, this mysterious figure comes and unlocks this gate. We go in and sure enough, the couple comes out of those shadows and it's these two beautiful women.

• 32:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  And they come in there with, so there's three guys.

• 32:03Dax Shepard?

  Are they clothed?

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Everybody's clothed at this point, but then we go in and they say,

• 32:07Dax Shepard?

  That's encouraging.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing, because they say you can leave your clothes here and we'll walk down to the thing. I'm sort of like, I don't know what they mean by that. So I take off everything but my jeans.

• 32:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  I go down there. As soon as I get down there, it's on the coast, like right on cliffs. I realize everyone's naked.

• 32:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  And so they all get in. So I take my pants off and I jump in. And I'm sitting there at this moment with the stars above me and everything else and thinking, this is where I want to be.

• 32:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm never leaving.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  I'm never leaving. This is California.

• 32:35Dax Shepard?

  Talking about culture shift.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  California, baby.

• 32:37Dax Shepard?

  Pennsylvania.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  After being there for an hour or so, we get up to leave and I pick up my pants and I had put them down at a place where the water was rushing through. So they were completely soaked.

• 32:48Dax Shepard?

  Seawater dungarees, rest of the rock.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Exactly, my only pair.

• 32:52Dax Shepard?

  So how do you end up at Berkeley?

• 32:53Speaker 02

  I loved Berkeley because I loved the counterculture part too. When I was a kid, there was also a head shop in Bethlehem. So I got a little taste like the furry freak brothers and I listened to Grateful Dead.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  I don't know what head shop is.

• 33:06Dax Shepard?

  That's where you go buy a water pipe and some tie dye clothing.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:11Dax Shepard?

  Countercultural.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  They had also those posters with the blue black light.

• 33:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Remember those?

• 33:16Dax Shepard?

  Hendrix.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they also had a smell to them, remember?

• 33:19Dax Shepard?

  Yep, patchouli kind of.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Patchouli, exactly.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 33:21Dax Shepard?

  I don't like them, but I'm glad you like them.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting. Okay, all right. Well, that was a big thing for me. Like, it was somehow a little bit illicit and off limits. And I found it very interesting to see what was going on there. And I also loved the Beat Poets and all the rebels. So Berkeley was a big attraction.

• 33:42Dax Shepard?

  Expert if you dare.

• 33:47Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Gusto. So here's the thing about running a small business that nobody romanticizes. It's not the big idea that wears you down. It's the payroll, the tax filings, the wait, do I need workers comp for this stuff? That's the part that quietly eats away your whole afternoon, which is where Gusto comes in. Gusto is online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses. It's all in one, remote friendly and incredibly easy to use so you can pay onboard and support your team from anywhere. They handle automatic tax filing, direct deposits, health benefits, 401k, all of it. And you get unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. No hidden fees, no surprises. If something tricky comes up,

• 34:30Dax Shepard?

  you've got direct access to certified HR experts who actually know what they're talking about. And they're ranked number one on G2's highest satisfaction products list for 2026, entrusted by over 500,000 small businesses. That's not nothing. Try Gusto today at gusto.com/dax and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/dax. Again, that's gusto.com/dax. We get support from no bull. The holidays can get hectic. You finally hit a post summer routine and suddenly you're on hosting duty every week.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  That's when you really need to ground yourself.

• 35:12Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. And that's why I keep my training routine through the holidays. It's the whole no bull idea. There's a no bullshit training brand built around consistency, honesty, and just putting in the work. It's not about adding more pressure to an already packed schedule. It's about having the gear and the habits to move through the season your way. My personal favorite, all three of the shoes are fantastic. The Outwork, the Outwork Flex, and the Drive 2. I like the Drive 2 because it's a hybrid and I lift, of course, but I also like to do what's called box jumps. Right? I do a lot of jumping onto a little platform and I want a little more flexibility. And boy, do they deliver.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  And if you're a cardio person and you're running and you also need to be lifted.

• 35:53Dax Shepard?

  And the style is banging. I don't know what to say. Beautiful style, very breathable, very, very comfortable, lots of support. They were built for lifting.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  They also make a great holiday gift. You know, I love gifting, a purposeful one that actually supports someone's goals and routines, and it's not a gift that just ends up in the back of the closet.

• 36:10Dax Shepard?

  Stay stronger than the season. Head to nobolproject.com all holiday season to shop new deals every week. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything. Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 36:32Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation, and I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It's only like two minutes, and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress, and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently that doesn't have a Helix mattress on it, and I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 37:06Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  It was a mess. I need a new one.

• 37:09Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models, so whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired, and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic. The experts agree.

• 37:30Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 37:48Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it? Or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays. We're supposed to see what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.

• 38:27Dax Shepard?

  This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I'm gonna cancel, cancel, cancel, but then I-

• 38:54Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh my God. I'm just, thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 39:02Dax Shepard?

  BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/dax. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash DAX.

• 39:33Dax Shepard?

  I like the physicist's history there as well. There's so many cool historical elements to Berkeley that I think make it such a special place.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  I agree. There was this idea that it's really about being a rebel at some level and being able to buck the status quo. And that I've always admired from Oppenheimer. They discovered all these elements and all these Nobel Prize winners.

• 39:53Dax Shepard?

  That's what's rad is they're fringe, but they're crushing. They're like doing it in a totally untraditional- Away, but they're still bringing in the results.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Rigorous. You know, it's not about just being space cadets.

• 40:03Dax Shepard?

  Being on acid all day.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Right. Cause there is a sort of berserkly kind of idea, right? But it's not because you have to be grounded. Berkeley is not the easiest school to attend because it's big and it doesn't hold your hand.

• 40:15Dax Shepard?

  I've driven up to just look at it and you don't get the sense of, oh, I'm entering this secure border.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  It's very shaggy. There's no real border. There's no gates. By the way, USC has these gates. You have to have an ID and everything. Nothing like that at Berkeley. A hippie vibe is still floating around. It's definitely got a lot of coffee shops, which I love that. But the rigor is that you have to work hard and you have to be willing to get what you want. Like you can't get into this class, but you go and you camp out in your sleeping bag next to the professor and talk your way in.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  You have to be motivated, self motivated.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Motivated and grit.

• 40:45Dax Shepard?

  Angela Duckworth.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly, exactly.

• 40:48Dax Shepard?

  She's the queen.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  I think that word really sums up. Students, when they ask, should I come to Berkeley or not? Or even faculty, and I say, well, if you want to be comfortable, maybe not.

• 40:57Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  You know, it's not the most comfortable.

• 40:59Dax Shepard?

  Stanford is right up the road.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 41:01Dax Shepard?

  I wasn't gonna say it. I think you'll love it there. Okay, so could you walk us through kind of the history of robotics? When does automation arrive? What are kind of the pillars of progress in robotics?

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Okay, so goes all the way back to start at the ancient Egyptians.

• 41:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, because if you think about something that looks human or a machine that has like surprising abilities. So people have been always fascinated by that and they had these statues that use steam to sort of move their arms and stuff. So that has a long history.

• 41:33Dax Shepard?

  But they were functional or these were ideas drawn?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  No, they're functional.

• 41:37Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, with like levers and chambers that would fill with fluid and then they would raise their arm.

• 41:42Dax Shepard?

  But obviously they're using some kind of hydraulics or something.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wasn't steam per se, but it was just like liquid that would fill up a chamber. But they had simple mechanisms. That goes up through the Greeks and then there's all these stories about Pygmalion coming to life. You know, the statue comes to life. And the story, of course, there is that he falls in love with a statue.

• 42:02Dax Shepard?

  I don't know Pygmalion, so help me.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Pygmalion is a really good story to know. It's one of the Greek myths and. It's a sculptor who's renowned for being incredibly skilled. And he, at one point, sculpts this beautiful woman. And it's so lifelike that he falls in love with her.

• 42:17Dax Shepard?

  How could he not?

• 42:18Speaker 02

  How could he not? But then has a tragic end because he won't eat and it never returns his affections.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  It's literally the movie Her.

• 42:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  That's this archetype. It's Frankenstein. It's the same story that you see over and over again.

• 42:30Dax Shepard?

  Falling in love with an inanimate object.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Falling in love with your creation.

• 42:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, your creation. Oh, that's a good detail.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's hubris.

• 42:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's juicy.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  That's so deeply rooted in Western culture that we're warned against these kind of things. It's overstepping to try to take on this godlike role.

• 42:47Dax Shepard?

  It's challenging God because you're being a creator.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. So there's a lot of idea that that's going to come to a bad end. And I think that's largely what's behind all these fears.

• 42:55Dax Shepard?

  It underpins a lot of our current.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 42:58Dax Shepard?

  Even if we don't believe in God, we have some sense that we're not supposed to be tampering. Let's just use nature as God.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  That it's in the back of our minds that if we do this, there's going to be some price to pay.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  It's going to run amok. And that's the story with Frankenstein, right? It runs amok. And then the golem story, it precedes Frankenstein. In the 14th century, a rabbi, there was a lot of pogroms in this little village. So he makes a robot out of clay, just a being out of clay. He puts these words on its forehead that bring it to life. And then it goes around and it basically defends against all the bad guys. And it defends the community. But then when it's done, he's like, well, now why don't you go fetch some water for me? Then he goes to sleep. Anyway, wakes up and he's drowning because the robot just keeps fetching water over and over again. And he has to stop it, but he doesn't know how. So he then reaches up and he wipes off the words on the forehead and the golem collapses on top. It kills him.

• 43:54Dax Shepard?

  Now, that one is specifically, I hear this anecdote all the time, that you could deploy AI for this simple innocuous task, but it could determine to execute that task, it would be best that we kill all the humans. This is the very common one that goes around right now.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Right, if you want to save energy.

• 44:10Dax Shepard?

  Get rid of these humans.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, if you're not careful. Way is to be. Yeah, it has such a myopic command it's following.

• 44:18Dax Shepard?

  Right. Oh, great. Okay, so then when do we get into something that is actually practically helping us? I'm an idiot. I'm thinking Henry Ford is when this kind of starts.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  It's actually really good. So the industrial revolution with the invention of the steam engine, all those things, all the machinery starts coming out. And so Henry Ford is definitely part of the assembly line and the car. But robots actually also start at Ford. There are some very early robots in the late 50s, early 60s. They're like a programmable machine. And so you can basically tell it to go from point A to point B. And so it's very primitive, but they're in like the World's Fair and people start talking. Oh, and by the way, the word robot is coined in 1920.

• 44:58Dax Shepard?

  By a sci fi writer or?

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, by a sci fi writer. It's actually a playwright in Czechoslovakia. So interestingly, it's right around the time of the pandemic, the 1918 pandemic. And also, I think significantly, Sigmund Freud wrote this essay called The Uncanny in 1919. So a year later, this play comes out about essentially robots. That's where the first time this word has ever been used. Yeah, robot, which means worker or forced worker in Czechoslovakia.

• 45:27Dax Shepard?

  Now, the 60s Ford robot, was it being employed to move objects? Or was it like a CNC cutting device?

• 45:34Speaker 02

  It's much like a CNC, computer numerical controlled.

• 45:38Dax Shepard?

  So they were able to program these spinning drill bits with three axes, right? So it could say, go up, go left, go right. And through those little three axis movements, it could carve out the perfect shape of a part from a block of agate.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Steel or something.

• 45:54Dax Shepard?

  Whatever. So you go like, oh, I want this rim for your car. I start with this big block of aluminum. And this thing, just with a drill, it can go through. It has all these steps programmed in and it just, like a sculptor, chisels out everything you don't want.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  And it's programmable, so then you can make a whole bunch of them over and over again. And that's still used, by the way, very heavily.

• 46:12Dax Shepard?

  And then what's the next big leap forward?

• 46:14Speaker 02

  There's a lot of fear around that time that robots are going to take over. And in the newspaper, there's all these articles that they're going to do all the work, but that doesn't happen. And the first robotics conference is in 1984. Then there's a big research field that starts to grow around robotics. But then it started really taking off in factories, especially automotive. The big thing that it's used for is welding. And spray painting.

• 46:38Dax Shepard?

  The welding's awesome.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, the welding's fine because you get those sparks.

• 46:41Dax Shepard?

  Pinches just come in boom, boom, boom, right? And welding sheet metal is very hard to do.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  For humans.

• 46:46Dax Shepard?

  You burn right through it so easy.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Right, so it's very delicate, but then you're just basically doing the same thing over and over again. So it's repetitive and that is very good for factories and also some of the assembly, putting together various devices and appliances and things like that. That's a big wave and that's also happening in Japan and other places. So that's growing, the industrial robotics. And the biggest breakthrough is now in 2012 in the breakthrough of deep learning and AI.

• 47:10Dax Shepard?

  How does that open the door for us?

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Let me back up a little bit, which is that when I did my PhD, I was interested in this incredibly simple problem of just trying to pick up objects just to grasp. It's something everybody does, babies do it. I was actually clumsy as a kid. I later thought maybe that's why I wanted to study that, but it's still an open problem.

• 47:30Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yes, robots to pick things up.

• 47:32Dax Shepard?

  What's it called, Makovarke's Paradox, what is it?

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, Moravec.

• 47:36Dax Shepard?

  There we go, there we go.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Okay, so Moravec was actually at CMU when I was there. He was this very eccentric guy and he wrote this book and he was saying it's a paradox that what's easy for robots, like lifting a heavy car, is hard for humans. But what's easy for humans, like stacking some blocks, that's hard for robots. And that's still true today.

• 47:58Dax Shepard?

  Yes, you have a great TED Talk. I urge everyone to watch it. It's called.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Where are the robots or something?

• 48:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Where are our robot butlers?

• 48:07Dax Shepard?

  That is not the title of it, but that is really close. I found it. Why don't we have better robots yet? That's the title of your TED Talk and it's very, very good. Yeah, so it's incredibly hard for a robot to grasp things. There's a bunch of reasons, right?

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very counterintuitive because humans, it's so easy. But we've sort of evolved over millions of years, just like dogs and crows. Crows are able to pick up things amazingly.

• 48:33Dax Shepard?

  They can put coins in slots and they can do eight step problems.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  They're far more dexterous than robots.

• 48:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 48:39Dax Shepard?

  I would much more trust a crow to handle my business than a robot currently.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Exactly. Robots, there's a lot of uncertainty in the environment. And even if you tell a robot to go to one specific spot, because of the motors and levers and gears that are in it, it won't go to that exact spot. You want it to put its jaws or something at a specific point to grasp this cup, it'll be slightly off and that will cause it to miss, drop the object.

• 49:04Dax Shepard?

  Right, because every single movement's gonna have some margin of error. And then that's gonna compound, the more movements you add, all these different little margins of errors start stacking up.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Exactly. And then the other is sensing. So we can take a high resolution picture of an environment like this room, but there's no sensor that can give me the depth, the three dimensional part of this room.

• 49:25Dax Shepard?

  What if you used a 3D camera, so you had bilateral?

• 49:28Speaker 02

  There's errors, there's a little noise in those things. If you look at the result of that, there'll be a depth map, which is like a 3D camera image, but you'll see there'll be lots of noise and imprecision and mistakes in those. And those are inevitable. There's no camera that really works reliably for 3D.

• 49:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I don't know if this is the time, but this is one of the parts I want to talk about. As I've been frustrated with the exuberance of AI, one thing that has occurred to me is that our fascination with ourselves seems to be about our intelligence. And that in fact is what AI is trying to replicate and/or surpass, is our executive function, our problem solving, all these different things. But if you look at us as an animal, our motor control took 300 million years to evolve as mammals. And our big brain and everything we're trying to replicate in the AI space started 6 million years ago when hominids arrived. You have so much time spent evolving to do all these tests

• 50:27Dax Shepard?

  that we think are just standard. And then we think this last minute thing that took the least amount of time to evolve is somehow superior to that. So when I look at this, it's like, forget artificial intelligence, try to figure out artificial physicality.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  That's such a good way to put it. And that's exactly right. And so if you look at that history, hundreds of millions of years of evolution to see to mobility and being able to manipulate just the opposable thumb and all of those things. And so all these other things like math is really... Relatively very recent.

• 50:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we think that's the high watermark, but I think the most impressive thing is us moving through time and space and smelling these five senses, touching. I would imagine if you could quantify it, that's like this much and then our intelligence is like this much.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  That I think is helpful for people to understand why we've made all this progress in these quote hard problems like playing chess and go.

• 51:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  But we really haven't made much progress in just being able to like clear the coffee table.

• 51:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so then my question is, is that a software or hardware problem? So one of the things I think about, it must be so hard when you're trying to design a robot is you're limited to all of these pulleys to operate a hand the way ours moves. And as much as we are pulleys, we're also not, right? Cause the muscles are such a unique way to operate the pulley. It opens up infinite options of movement. Whereas these robots are really confined to kind of this, this, this, this, right?

• 51:50Speaker 02

  You're right, the muscles in the human body, there are hundreds of muscles and bones and they pull in all these nuanced ways. And we have the skin that's very complex. What's amazing is how much we don't know about human biology. We don't understand how touch works. Touch is incredibly complex. Like we can feel things that are so small, they're much smaller than a human hair. We can perceive up to very complex vibrations and other things.

• 52:15Dax Shepard?

  You add in temperature, we can feel.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:17Dax Shepard?

  You add in moisture. Have you ever read the book In a Mens World?

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:21Dax Shepard?

  You have!

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 52:22Dax Shepard?

  By Ed Yong.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 52:24Dax Shepard?

  Holy fuck.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  He's fascinating.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  I love that book.

• 52:26Dax Shepard?

  And you get into this mole that has this star shaped nose. And so that's a touch sense.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 52:32Dax Shepard?

  And that touch sense can detect the movement of moisture in the sand it's exploring at a distance of like 12 inches. It actually can see through everything, but it's not seeing through and it's not smelling through. It's touch feeling through.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh my god.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  I know.

• 52:48Dax Shepard?

  How would you replicate that with a machine?

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Also, humans don't even have the ability to do a lot of the stuff that these animals can do.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  So which one are you even aiming for?

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Right. Robotic touch sense is extremely primitive.

• 53:01Dax Shepard?

  What do they think would be the mechanism that? Could replicate it. Would it be electricity? What would it be?

• 53:07Speaker 02

  When I was in undergrad, I tried to use electricity to do that and it failed. Did not work. But what people are using now is light.

• 53:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  And they transform the touch into light. And so imagine that you have a little camera in your fingertip is looking inside at a pad from the bottom. And so when the pad gets indented, you see the pattern of what it's touching.

• 53:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay. So there's like a membrane and above that, the membrane is being observed?

• 53:32Speaker 02

  That's exactly what it is. But what happens is the membrane gets rubbed off or over time, those sensors get deformed. And so it doesn't solve the problem. It's just the latest method.

• 53:41Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  We're trying.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  This is why the Roomba worked because it didn't have to use any digits or anything. It was just sort of at random moving.

• 53:50Dax Shepard?

  And the Roomba replicated the very first multicell organism. What it actually ended up knocking off was something that can only move forward and then turn and move forward and turn and move forward.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Like some paramecium.

• 54:03Dax Shepard?

  What we've achieved is like.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  That's where we are.

• 54:07Dax Shepard?

  Multicell organism.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  You're right. The Roomba is the most successful robot of all time. So when they count robots out there, they count these Roombas where there's like 10 million of those. But that's the robot, right? And it's very simple. It's basically just random motion and over time it does cover your carpet.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  And it's pretty reliable. But of course, it also has this problem that it gets stuck all the time and tangled up in stuff.

• 54:29Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  And so it's not ideal and it can't go upstairs. Also, a lot of people bought them as a novelty. There's a lot of them sitting in the closet somewhere.

• 54:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they want to see it work once. Or maybe even they bought it and they got intimidated about even turning it on.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:43Dax Shepard?

  That would be my thought. So even understanding, I don't really want to deal with pulling out of the box and figure out how I deploy this thing.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  I actually have a drone that's in that category.

• 54:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. I'm not gonna be able to figure out.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  No, I need like six hours to basically figure it out and it's sitting in the box.

• 54:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're right. I'm like, that's gonna require a day and I don't know if I'm gonna enjoy flying it enough to justify a day of me figuring it out. Okay, good. So I like that we're kind of agreeing that we're really underestimating how complicated our physical abilities are. And we're really overplaying our. Intel capabilities.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  Right, so everybody's impressed, the analogy, if you say, okay, you can beat the best person in the world at chess. Then that means you have a very powerful machine, artificial intelligence. Now it can beat the best person at Go. And nobody can play Go or chess that well, so you think this is smarter than everybody.

• 55:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  That's the way people reason. But then it can't drive a car, it's a whole bunch of things it can't do. And anything physical is just picking up or opening this can that I just did, that is impossible for a robot.

• 55:42Dax Shepard?

  Tell people about your folding project. I don't know what year you're into this, but one of your projects.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  Is folding clothes?

• 55:49Dax Shepard?

  Folding clothes.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  That's one that I think everybody would like to have.

• 55:53Dax Shepard?

  If it just sat on your washing machine and you could dump it in a barrel and then, fuck, yeah, that would be.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Also, can you do a dishes one, like putting them?

• 56:00Dax Shepard?

  Have you ever watched them do this?

• 56:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:04Dax Shepard?

  There's nothing funnier than watching the robot try to cook breakfast or do dishes. It just smashes everything.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Splatters, broken glass.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  But I agree, taking things in and out of the dishwasher would be great. Just unloading and loading the dishwasher, right? And some would say that their dishwasher is a robot. It is, very successful. See, there's this idea that if you can use humans and robot together, that's very powerful. So that's what I call complementarity. When if you figure out that you have a machine, you can use it, but you have the human do the parts that we're good at, and then let it do the parts it's good at, together you have a great system. And a dishwasher is a beautiful example. And the washing machine, they do all this, but we have to load it and unload it. In the laundry aspect, it's also that you want your clothes to be folded at this precise time, right when they come out, because then they're at the perfect stage.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  No wrinkles.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  No wrinkles. And if you do it too soon, they're kind of soggy. If they're too late, they get all wrinkled. So having a machine to do that would be quite good. And there's some really interesting new results that just came out about this. But we've been working on it too, and one of the ideas is you fling the clothes up and you use air to help smooth them out. Like humans do that all the time, right? You snap, you know?

• 57:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  That has only been really done in robotics in the last five years.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Oh my god. This is your job. I've been so annoyed all day long.

• 57:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's a perfect time for me to ask you like, knowing your work will experience failure. I don't know that there's one that would surpass it. Like, it's just failure, failure, failure. How do you stay optimistic?

• 57:33Speaker 02

  So I'm super optimistic. I love working on this topic and I feel like we have a lot more work to do. So that's also encouraging. I don't worry that it fails. I actually love the times when it does succeed. That's super rewarding, knowing how hard it is.

• 57:47Dax Shepard?

  You're like a fan of hockey instead of basketball.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Why?

• 57:50Dax Shepard?

  They're only gonna score once a game.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 57:52Dax Shepard?

  Whereas basketball, you're gonna score 110 points. So you're like, oh yeah, I don't get it, but when I get it, boy.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting. Never thought of it that way. Yeah, because in grasping, we've actually made some good progress. Just in picking up objects and that was the breakthrough. So coming back to this timeline. So in 2012, there was this breakthrough in vision and suddenly deep learning, this new way of building these very large networks. We're using lots of data and using GPUs, graphical processing units. It's basically a new kind of computer. It has this breakthrough where suddenly machines are able to recognize images and things in images. Like it'll say that's a book and that's a cup and that's a microphone.

• 58:27Dax Shepard?

  Part of Fei-Fei Li's work.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. So Fei-Fei Li is actually at the center of this. She builds this data. So she plays a pivotal role. When all that gets put together, suddenly it's a revolution. And that's a big moment in robotics in history. We apply it to robotics. And so her system was called ImageNet. And so the system that we designed for grasping, we called DexNet as an homage to her.

• 58:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's great.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. So DexNet was our system. We worked on it for five years. And we basically applied deep learning techniques to be able to figure out where to grasp objects. And it started working better than anything had been done before. And I was so surprised because I had been trying to work on this problem. And then I suddenly was able to pick up almost everything we could put in front of it.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 59:11Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's this critical mass point for all these things, isn't there?

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:15Dax Shepard?

  Reading her book, she needed such a humongous pile of data and halfway there gets you nothing. But it's like stagnation, then the acceleration is probably shocking.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's really great point. There is a critical point when you get enough data and suddenly it starts working. It took a lot. It was 80 million plus images that Fifi had put together. And in our case, we had seven million GRASP examples that we had found. And then it started to work and it was like, oh, this is so exciting.

• 59:43Dax Shepard?

  And what could it do? You could put it in a new environment, it could evaluate the environment, and then you could ask it to do something?

• 59:49Speaker 02

  So it was just grasping. And think of it with a very simple gripper, just a parallel pincer. So you would put a bin of objects in front of it and it would start to pick them one by one and put them out. And so we would test it by going into the basement, the garage. We'd just throw all kinds of stuff in there.

• 1:00:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  And it would just pick them up consistently and clear the bin.

• 1:00:06Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  And we would try and fool it.

• 1:00:08Dax Shepard?

  He must have been elated.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  It was so much fun. There's a story where we got invited to show this to Jeff Bezos. And he invited us down to this event in Palm Springs. He said, bring the robot, I want to see this. We had never left a lab before, so it was a big deal to put it on a truck. And we weren't sure it was going to work. We had like 300 objects that we brought with us, got it all set up. He came in the booth and it was working.

• 1:00:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  And we were so relieved. And he was trying with different things and it was just like it was in lab. And everything was going great. And then his assistant, standing there, and took off his shoe.

• 1:00:41Dax Shepard?

  Uh oh.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  And he said, well, can I try my shoe? And I remember, my mouth goes dry. Because of all the things we've tried it with, we've never tried a shoe. So I have no idea. But what can we do? We have to say, go ahead.

• 1:00:54Dax Shepard?

  Otherwise, it feels all mapped out, maybe.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:00:57Dax Shepard?

  Like the panties on the ground.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. So he drops his shoe into the bin and we're all standing there. And the robot just reached over, picked up the shoe.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  It did it.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Took it right out.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  I remember calling Tiffany, my wife, and I said, this was the best moment of my life.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  She said, "What about our wedding?"

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. But you can't tell it, like, it has the bin and it has all the objects. And you can't say, "Pick the shoe."

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. That's very important. You can't tell it to select a specific object.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:31Dax Shepard?

  You can't say, "Go through this bin and find me all the pennies."

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  That's called rummaging.

• 1:01:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  And that's very interesting. We're looking at that now. Much different problem, much harder.

• 1:01:39Dax Shepard?

  That could be incredible for recycling.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Yes. And also, you think about it, you do this all the time. If you're reaching your pocket and you want to pull out a pen, you can always find the pen or your purse.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Right? People are very good at that. And what's going on is very complicated. Robot cannot do that at all. But pulling one thing out of the bin is really interesting because you have to kind of move things around a little bit, sort of see a little piece of it, then pick it up. And that's actually very important for warehouses and for Amazon to be able to deliver packages. You have to be able to rummage and find the thing you want. And that's still unsolved.

• 1:02:09Dax Shepard?

  Ah. This might be a good moment to bring up. So you say in that TED Talk, which I think would shock people, is that we are much better at predicting the trajectory of an asteroid that's a million miles away than we are how a plastic bottle on a table will move if we poke it.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, because there's physics. We really don't understand friction. And friction is so important. And so it lets us all sit here and things not slipping around. Friction is so important, but it's a very, very complex process. We can approximate it, and there's this model Coulomb friction, et cetera. But to really get friction right is actually impossible. If I want to push something across the table, the way it's going to move and react to my pushing force is going to depend on what's underneath it. So if you have one grain of sand, it's going to change it.

• 1:02:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if it's in the right corner, the whole thing's going to rotate clockwise.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. If it's in a left corner, it's going to rotate the other way. But I can't know that. The robot can't know it. So right there is like one of the great mysteries of nature, right? You don't have to talk about quantum physics. That is one unknowable thing that's sitting right in front of us.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:03:13Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  And we deal with it all the time. So you might say, "What do we do?" Well, we kind of compensate. When we reach for a glass, we don't just reach our gripper right up to it. We scoop it up.

• 1:03:25Dax Shepard?

  We're almost anticipating the many different ways it could go wrong.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. We haven't figured out how to do that for robots yet.

• 1:03:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, man. And again, is that a software problem or a hardware problem?

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  It's both. It's largely software because we don't have the sensors, we don't have the control, we don't understand the models of physics. But I also think we need better grippers, too. But that's a whole other story. But the bottom line is that we're far from anything approximating human-level performance. And there's been so much hype. And that's what I worry about.

• 1:03:53Dax Shepard?

  Do you worry this whole field to go through one of those other stagnation patterns that we've already seen a bunch of times?

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  I really do. I think we're on a collision course with a kind of bubble that's gonna burst because people are expecting that we're almost there, especially when they see these videos.

• 1:04:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. Yeah, tell me about these videos. Because you watch them and you think we're there.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Those guys that are running.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  Right. Okay, the first thing to ask is, how many takes were required? Many times they get to work once, and that's the video they show.

• 1:04:25Dax Shepard?

  Out of hundreds of attempts?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Hundreds.

• 1:04:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you show the clip of a robot doing a backflip, which is mind-blowing. You're like, well, fuck it, we're there. That thing's gonna work on my car next month.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Right. That was one in 200 takes.

• 1:04:35Dax Shepard?

  And the other 199 takes, this thing is like flying off the table and smashing around. It's violent when it gets it wrong.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  In a research lab, that's what we're dealing with. Okay, it's always failing. You're lucky if you get it to work once. But so if you put it on YouTube, we'll say the success rate is one out of 200 or something. But nowadays, there's so much hype that is not putting those caveats in there.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:55Dax Shepard?

  Well, because you're an academic, and this becomes one of my next questions, is a lot of these videos, I'm imagining they're coming from startups that are trying to raise funding. So they're heavily incentivized to mislead you.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Someone might say, I have to do that. That's how I'm gonna get the next round of funding. But I really cringe about that because that goes against my instincts of, I like to say, under-promise and over-deliver. And I'm gonna be really careful, never over-promise about what we're doing or a result in a paper. We're always careful. Don't exaggerate the result. And it really is a problem for robotics, where you see the videos, and then the other thing is, they can be teleoperated, and there's a human behind the curtain.

• 1:05:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so what about this Tesla robot?

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  The Kim Kardashian dot?

• 1:05:37Dax Shepard?

  Optimus. She owns one?

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  I guess Elon gave her one. I guess she's the only one.

• 1:05:42Dax Shepard?

  What a romantic gesture.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Well, what's the deal?

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  OK, so I know this is going to disappoint people when I tell you this, but it's far from being human-like in its abilities. In dexterity, it's very, very weak. It looks good and they're beautiful designs. And they actually have made progress in the motors and the hardware. So it can move more smoothly. And they're also getting very good at walking. So there's definitely something positive there. But what can they do? And see, this triggers that old idea that we've had in the back of our mind, which is we want these things. We've been reading about them, watching them in movies and TV. We think they're gonna come. And yet, there's this huge gap. So if you watch carefully at the demos, they're being somewhat teleoperated. That means that there's a human moving them around,

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  essentially remote controlling them. Or if you watch what their hands are doing, they're very primitive. Now, there's a lot of work trying to address that.

• 1:06:40Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We get support from Skims. OK, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really. Everyone in the same matching set, looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

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• 1:07:22Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone, too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

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• 1:07:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  It is so comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multi-purpose this and look super cute.

• 1:07:51Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

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• 1:08:20Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff, but there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends, docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly is different. It's already right there inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread, highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands.

• 1:09:05Dax Shepard?

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• 1:09:24Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Squarespace. So here's something I think about a lot. Most people I talk to on this show, the ones doing really interesting things, they all had a version of their work that existed before anyone else saw it. It was just theirs, notes, ideas, projects they were tinkering with. And then at some point, they made the decision to share it. That's the part that's scary, right? Going from, I'm working on something to here's what I made. Rob went through the exact same thing, building our site on Squarespace. And what made it doable was that he didn't have to become a web developer overnight. He just had to show up with the idea. Squarespace handles the rest. Beautiful templates that actually look like you hired someone, built in SEO, so people can find you, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, all under one roof. No code, no patchwork of random tools.

• 1:10:09Dax Shepard?

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• 1:10:53Dax Shepard?

  to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

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• 1:11:39Speaker 03

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• 1:12:00Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so now I want to ask you, how impacted are you by this general paradigm shift? Where most technology for the 20th century was coming out of military government spending, DARPA, MIT, these great institutions, academia. And then as you saw these private corporations amass trillion dollar values.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:25Dax Shepard?

  The government can't really compete now, and academia can't compete. And what do we think the price of that'll be? What are your thoughts on that whole realm of this?

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  So it's a great question because it just came up yesterday at USC because people were talking about there's not so much funding available from the government agencies, DARPA and others that used to fund a lot of this research because it was more esoteric. Now they're saying, well, the companies are doing it. And yet it's not necessarily being shared. So it's closed and complicated. But fortunately, a lot of the companies are pretty open. Google and Nvidia and many others are actually publishing their results. We work with them, they work with us. And so robotics is surprisingly open. The minute they get a result, they publish it and we all see it. You see it on Twitter or archive is this other thing. But so there's a lot of communication. And by the way, all this tension between China and the US, it's really interesting, it doesn't exist in academia.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  We are freely exchanging information. Students are coming from China. Just came from a conference, half the papers were from China. It's a free, open exchange.

• 1:13:26Dax Shepard?

  No, science always, and it's so cool. It's so punk rock. They're always like, before I'm German or I'm Hungarian or I'm American, I'm a physicist. The collaboration and how everyone got along is something to be really modeled. They have a higher calling, which is kind of knowledge.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but wasn't that part of the whole thing? With Oppenheimer, I mean, they were trying to keep it to America.

• 1:13:47Dax Shepard?

  Yes, Oppenheimer had some folks working under him that were spies for Russia. And were leaking our nuclear technology. So yeah, I guess that's not to say it was devoid of any statecraft. But just in general, if a Chinese roboticist has a breakthrough, he doesn't give a fuck where this guy came from. He wants to know about the robotics breakthrough.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Well, you don't, but do they feel like we got to protect? I mean, obviously not, which is amazing. I'm shocked. Because that's our whole thing. We would talk about it all the time with AI, like, well, if we want to put the brakes on it.

• 1:14:17Dax Shepard?

  China's not gonna, yeah.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Other countries aren't. So what are we doing?

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  A lot of it is open now. Facebook or Meta has actually been quite exemplary in that they share all the models.

• 1:14:26Dax Shepard?

  They're doing their AI as open source, right?

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, really wonderful. And actually, we use it all the time, those tools, and it's very, very helpful. And then others like OpenAI, we use the tool, but we don't actually get access to the source code. So we don't know how it's doing it right behind the scenes, but they let us access it and use it, which is doing some incredible things. But that idea of, I guess your question is about government versus private sector.

• 1:14:50Dax Shepard?

  Let's just take really quick, a hard example, and I'm not an Elon Musk hater or lover. I respect him as a modern day Edison. He is a once in a generation kind of engineer, and I respect that.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:15:01Dax Shepard?

  His other stuff is questionable to me, but whatever. Even with that said, I can't say that I love that he has 5,000 satellites in orbit around the planet en route to having 12,000. It's just an interesting level of power to give one individual when I think I'd feel safer if University of Michigan had 8,000 satellites. Or the US government may be further down that list, but still I'd prefer that. It's a dicey situation when someone has a monopoly on a technology that's hugely impactful.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  It's a great point. And not only that, but that individual also has a lot of power in terms of, let's say, Twitter and X.

• 1:15:40Dax Shepard?

  Media.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  Media and seems to know how to use it very effectively. So I think it's a concern. Coming back to the fear, the reason roboticists, and I'm not the only one, almost all of us are not fearful that robots are going to take over. And also that they're going to eliminate humans because it's just not that sophisticated by a long shot. And certainly the other fear is about jobs and I don't see them taking over jobs and putting people out of work. Because all the jobs that require manual labor are extremely difficult to automate.

• 1:16:10Dax Shepard?

  I looked it up this morning. So 39% of US jobs are still manual labor.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a good number.

• 1:16:17Dax Shepard?

  But I think even more importantly, that represents one third of your waking day. You have another third of your waking day where you're still going to have to do your laundry, make dinner. Right? So you have this whole sector too, that no matter who you are, is still manual. So you add those two together and now you're really looking at a number that is like 78% of the stuff done on planet earth in a day is manual.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  A huge amount and those jobs cannot be replaced. You know, the gardener.

• 1:16:41Dax Shepard?

  The mechanic.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  The mechanic.

• 1:16:43Dax Shepard?

  The dream for me is I got a robot that's maintaining all this bullshit I bought. Diagnose why the car is not running, fix it, get in there, how intricate working on an engine is. Forget it. That's like 100 years away.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like mechanics are so complex where they can reach around things and feel they can take off screws.

• 1:16:58Dax Shepard?

  Bell housing on a trans, you can't see anything.

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  So that's the kind of thing way beyond robots. And I think that there's a shortage of workers. The trades, because we're aging and we need more people to be doing all these jobs, they're not going to be unemployed.

• 1:17:11Dax Shepard?

  Right. You're right. Right. In fact, it's probably most job security.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  People are realizing that they're actually in demand, which is great. They're actually getting higher wages.

• 1:17:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay. So my theory on this is that the people that are being interviewed for the media, where we're getting our information about AI. The people that are getting consulted and interviewed are the actual people whose jobs could be replaced. So they are very misled by their own. You're talking to like computer programmers about all these domains where actually AI will threaten those jobs. And they're the mouthpiece of this whole thing. So it's all very lopsided because those are the jobs.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  Well, I have a theory about this. I think some of the most vocal doomsayers who are saying we're on the verge of these things taking over. It was very telling. The person who just won the Nobel Prize, Jeff Hinton, he said, we have never encountered anything more intelligent than ourselves. That was his big line. And I read that and I thought, wait, I encounter something more intelligent than myself every day. I mean, there's tons of people around that are more intelligent than me. And I'm not afraid of them. They don't freak me out. I want to talk to them. I want to get to know them.

• 1:18:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we spent a week with Bill Gates and we loved it.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  We loved it.

• 1:18:22Dax Shepard?

  We weren't scared.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. And so, most of us aren't afraid of something more intelligent than us, but there's a small group, and I think they think they're the most intelligent.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  That's interesting. For someone to be smarter than them, where they're at the most upper echelon, is scary to them. It's a threat to their identity.

• 1:18:40Dax Shepard?

  Like, if the AI robot's good at drifting in a car, I'm fucked, because I'm defining my whole identity and self-esteem on my ability to do that.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. That's a great insight.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  That's what I think. So, it's not really something the rest of us need to worry about.

• 1:18:54Dax Shepard?

  We're constantly bumping into people smarter than us and it's fine.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  It's great, actually.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  It's great. And actually, I think this is something about AI is that it actually can be this interesting partner for us, and can enhance our world and our abilities. Well, like this thing I was talking to you guys about.

• 1:19:09Dax Shepard?

  You sent us.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  Notebook LM.

• 1:19:11Dax Shepard?

  Is that what it's called?

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:13Dax Shepard?

  You sent Monica and I a podcast that is entirely AI. There's a male host and a female host.

• 1:19:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:21Dax Shepard?

  And you said, do you think this thing was trained on you guys?

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Which was so flattering.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  Guys, do you not hear that? I mean, it sounds so much like you.

• 1:19:31Dax Shepard?

  By the way, it's great, too. Like, I was listening to it and I was like, it sounds like MBR. Like, I would listen to this if the information was good.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  But it has a rhythm that is very much like you two.

• 1:19:39Dax Shepard?

  Do they ever find panties, though? That's what keeps us human.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  But it has these amazing insights. Like, it'll just come up with these analogies and things, and they weren't in the document that you gave it. It just came up with these other things.

• 1:19:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  But the back and forth, like the pacing and everything else, is so good.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  The cadence, yeah, they got it.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  It has a sense that they're comfortable with each other. They're kind of back and forth.

• 1:20:01Dax Shepard?

  You can feel their rapport.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Rapport.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:05Dax Shepard?

  That's a word I wasn't thinking. They have fabricated rapport.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  But that's scary. That's the thing you think as a person you cannot replicate, and actually you can.

• 1:20:15Dax Shepard?

  But yeah, we're thinking doomsday like we're out of a job, but think about this. What if we own the thing and it puts out the show? We're on a beach somewhere and the show's just as good, you know?

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  I would love it.

• 1:20:24Dax Shepard?

  It's kind of like the Picasso story where it's like, yes, I drew this in five minutes, but it took me 40 years to learn how to do this.

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:20:30Dax Shepard?

  So it's like, yes, we're not doing it anymore, but because we did so much of it, we've earned this. That's how we'll justify our beach life.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  Well, you guys are not going to be replaced. Don't worry. You have a very special. And also, by the way, if you listen to a couple of these and I have, it starts to become a little repetitive. It's not like that's going to do a whole podcast series.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  There's something that's not quite new and fresh about them. At first, it sounds really great, but after a while, it's not really satisfying.

• 1:20:53Dax Shepard?

  And do you think that the missing ingredient is that we cannot help but evolve and change? We're aging, our bodies are morphing, our children get older, you know, all these elements that really funnel into this aren't existing there. So it's like, what they can do is replicate very well and even create within that framework of it, but it's not going to evolve in the way we just can't help but evolve.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think unless we can figure out ways to sort of feed it and prompt it. And so we can use it as a tool to discover new things. And sometimes it's good at that where you give it a paper and you say, come up with 10 extensions of this paper. And maybe one of them will be really interesting. Or you could do it for subjects for the show, you could say, well, what are some good brainstorming topics that would come up that we could have as our, what do you call it?

• 1:21:39Dax Shepard?

  Like conversation starters?

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it could come up with new ones of those.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Like our Armchair Anonymous.

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, oh my God, yes.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Like what are some good prompts? Yeah.

• 1:21:47Dax Shepard?

  And it would feel a little true minimally for us if we could use our data set.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:21:52Dax Shepard?

  Then I would feel a little less fraudulent about it.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  Right. You give it your set and then build on that and see what it does.

• 1:21:59Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I have a couple of rapid fire questions, then I want to talk about your art. Where are we ahead and where are we behind in our expectations? Are we ahead anywhere? We have all these fantasies about what robotics are going to do. And clearly we're aware of all the ones we think we're behind on. We don't have Rosie the Robot in our house. But are there areas in which it would shock people how far ahead we are or no?

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  It's hard to say. One thing I do think we're going to see is the extension of the Roomba is a robot that can pick up clothes and declutter around the house.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  And I think it might have four legs. So it'll be a little like dog with an arm.

• 1:22:33Dax Shepard?

  You thought it might have a scooper on its back, like the tail would be a scooper?

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  I think it might have a tail because tails are actually really important.

• 1:22:40Dax Shepard?

  For balance?

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  For also user interface. A dog's tail is very interesting and that's very deeply rooted also in our psychology. We have a reaction when you see a dog with a tail wagging.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  An emotional reaction.

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  But if you notice, none of these dogs that are out there yet have tails. So we're building one.

• 1:22:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you and your wife are incredible artists. You have an exhibit that's at Skirball right now.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. No, I'd love to tell you. So she's a filmmaker and has been involved in technology for a long time, Tiffany Schleen. And she and I have collaborated a little bit, but this is our first big collaboration and we've been having so much fun. We got invited as part of the Getty is doing this citywide exhibition on art and science. It's going on for a whole year. And so they have each of these different institutions do exhibits. And so the Skirball invited Tiffany and I to do one for them related to art and science. We've been working on it for like three years and we came up with this idea of talking about history more broadly, but also using trees and the science of tree ring dating. You know how you count the rings?

• 1:23:42Dax Shepard?

  If you've ever been to Muir Woods.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:23:44Dax Shepard?

  There's a great cross section of a redwood and they put on the rings, different events in history. This tree has been alive for. It has Jesus on the ring.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Right. And they're very Western patriarchal. And so she had started actually over the pandemic, doing a feminist tree ring.

• 1:24:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:24:02Speaker 02

  And then a couple of other ones, she's been developing these sculptures and they're salvaged wood. So we don't cut down trees to do this, but there's a lot of these big redwoods and other forms out there. So for this show, we wanted to do something around, it started with the Tree of Knowledge.

• 1:24:15Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. This is very cool.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  We found a tree stump that was gigantic, almost as big as this room. It's 7,000 pounds.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  It's a eucalyptus, but it was uprooted and sort of fell over. And then one side is sanded down. And so when you walk into the gallery, you see the back end of it. So it's all this knotted gnarly roots.

• 1:24:35Dax Shepard?

  Mold.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  And then around the other side, we inscribed it with questions. Trying to talk about the history of knowledge and how it evolved from like, what is fire and can I eat this, which is thousands of years ago, the kind of questions we asked, but those evolved into will machines be intelligent?

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  And on the far end, so it has 600 questions or something.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Wow, that's awesome.

• 1:24:58Dax Shepard?

  One of them that's super cool, and it's so wild to think the tree was around at that point, the first mark on the ring is from 530 B.C. and it's Pythagorean theorem, you see a squared plus b squared equals c squared. And it goes all through these great breakthrough math equations.

• 1:25:16Speaker 02

  It's another piece, actually, that we call abstract expression, which is a red wood. Yes, it starts with Pythagoras, but remember, it's not literal because that tree wasn't 5,000 years old. We take some liberties.

• 1:25:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay. How old was that tree?

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  I think like 400 years old, maybe 500, but that's the idea is like we're kind of playing off of that known concept, but this time we wanted to tell the history of science and do it through just equations. And we never say Pythagoras on there. It just has the equation, but those equations are kind of beautiful in their own right. And they're kind of artistic because in a way art takes an image and there's a lot of content and meaning behind it. And that's true with the scientific equations.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:54Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  We said that we were talking to Fei Fei about that, like especially with physics, there's something mystical about it. There's something about releasing your firm hold on life and like giving it up.

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  Yes. So I have one story about this.

• 1:26:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, please.

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  When I was in grad school, I had developed this method of orienting parts without sensing. So just by pushing the part along in different directions, you could orient it. And I showed it to my advisor and he was very excited about it. And he said, well, can you prove that that would work for any part? I worked on this problem for a year and a half.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  I tried all these methods and it was basically extremely difficult to try and prove that it would work for all of these geometries. I was living at the end of this alley and it was down some stairs. And so I was sitting on my porch all the time, just like working on this. I have this moment where this pops into my head to use this step function and it looks like stairs. I remember writing down these equations and crossing off terms and everything turned into zero and then it worked.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  It was this moment where when the whole thing integrated to zero means that there had to be a solution for any polygonal part.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:27:04Dax Shepard?

  Did it feel transcendent?

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  It felt quite transcendent.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:27:07Dax Shepard?

  Like you had tapped into something a little mystical.

• 1:27:09Speaker 02

  Totally. It was not something that I felt like I did. It was just revealed.

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  You were like the vessel for this.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Yes, very much. I still remember that very distinctly. And I'll admit that one of the equations on the tree is yours.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 1:27:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's your signature.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  I put it in there. Up with Gauss and Einstein.

• 1:27:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. But you're right, there's something really elegant about those formulas. And you think of the most famous one, like E equals mc squared on the surface is just so simple. And no one could think of that for so many years.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  Right. The elegance of some of these. Euler's equation is the one that mathematicians truly love.

• 1:27:53Dax Shepard?

  What's that?

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  It's e to the i pi minus one equals zero. It's amazing because you have these three quantities. You have e, which is the natural logarithm, which is like this 2.78 blah blah blah. And then you have pi, 3.14159. And then you have i, which is for imaginary numbers. And those three, there's no reason that those should all relate.

• 1:28:14Dax Shepard?

  Right, because they're all going to infinity, so none of them work great in math.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  The irrational numbers, yes. And they all came from very different sources, but they all come together at this magical moment. And it's mind blowing. Like, to a mathematician, it shouldn't be.

• 1:28:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  And it's like one of those moments where you're like, the universe makes sense.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Speaker 02

  By the way, I feel like that's where I believe in higher power.

• 1:28:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes, so I'm a hardcore atheist. I believe in nothing. I don't want to believe in nothing. There's something happening with my kids that I feel like is something I can't articulate. I really kind of opened my mind to like, maybe there is some kind of magic happening.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  There's symmetry at the very least. From where? I don't know.

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  There's structure. There's some kind of beauty that makes sense, and that's out there. And when we discover it, we get a glimpse of it, it's like there's something beyond us. Had that one little taste of it.

• 1:29:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:08Speaker 02

  That I'll never forget. And that really influenced me. I know it's out there, and I think that's when these breakthroughs happen. In 2012, you had the one breakthrough with AI. And then in 2022, the second one was ChatGPT. And that has changed so much, and so many people are in robotics, by the way. That's the new wave that everybody's excited about. But now we'll have to wait for the next one. If you look at it, it's every 10 years or more when we get another breakthrough. And I think we need a few more breakthroughs.

• 1:29:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. When you look at evolution, they talk about punctuated evolution. It's like nothing happens, and then everything happens, and then nothing happens.

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  Exactly, Dax. You're the anthropologist.

• 1:29:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  Punctuated equilibrium, you have a sort of plateau. And then there's a breakthrough or a change. And then there's a long plateau where it kind of gets digested and everything. And then another, but that's really what progress looks like.

• 1:30:00Dax Shepard?

  Right. You would think it's just this nice linear.

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  Not at all. And people say exponential. That's not the case at all. We're not living in exponential times. Most technologies do not increase like that. There'll be a little breakthrough and then a long, look at air travel. Hasn't really improved.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:16Speaker 02

  There was a huge jump when it started.

• 1:30:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we have had things like carbon fiber planes. And there's definitely things that make it more energy efficient. But in terms of comfort level, when's the breakthrough?

• 1:30:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it's actually gone backwards, but.

• 1:30:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:30:28Dax Shepard?

  Well, Ken, you are a blessing on planet Earth. I think you are so fun and interesting and encouraging. You're like a polymath, kind of cosmopolitan. You're an artist. You have all these interests. You're youthful beyond your years. It's a pleasure to know you. I'm so glad you came in and talked to us about all this.

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  You guys are so great. I have to say, I get this real joy listening to you. Because you're so open and the way you bring out the best in people. Now I see how it works. You sit down and you just make us feel so at home.

• 1:31:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, good.

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  But your real genuine rapport is so incredible. And I think that's why you're so incredibly successful. Because people hear it. It's a pleasure and it's so genuine.

• 1:31:13Dax Shepard?

  Thank you. I love it. Yeah. Okay, well, to the many dinners we will have in the future.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  How fun. Thank you so much.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  What a pleasure. Thank you, guys.

• 1:31:24Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong. It's okay, though. We all make mistakes.

• 1:31:32Dax Shepard?

  I'm in an incredibly beautiful new sweater that my friend got me.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  It looks gorgeous.

• 1:31:36Dax Shepard?

  I just went down for the first time and I'm truly blown away.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  The green is really nice.

• 1:31:40Dax Shepard?

  And the fit is really kind of perfect.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  I know, they know how to do it.

• 1:31:43Dax Shepard?

  And I think I like these cuffs where you have to roll them up. They're too long on their own. They're clearly designed to be rolled. See, look, that's a seven inch, nine inch cuff.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  It's nice though.

• 1:31:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. But you wouldn't wear it like that, right?

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not allowed because I'm short and they have a rule that if you're short, you have to show a little bit of skin. If you're wearing oversized clothing, you have to show a little bit of skin on your arm.

• 1:32:03Dax Shepard?

  Because you'll get lost in it. I just rode my bicycle.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:32:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. My first time in biker shorts.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  How'd it go?

• 1:32:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, I just can't believe I'm a person that owns biker shorts and wears them now. I'm having a hard time.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Well, you're 50. So a lot of things have changed.

• 1:32:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but also I think that's something that's best done much younger. Almost the 50 compounds it. First, I never envisioned myself as being someone that would be in those biker shorts.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:32:31Dax Shepard?

  But they have this pad built into them and the seat is very tiny on the road bike. And it hurts here on oozes. I don't want to say it hurts here. It just hurts.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it hurts.

• 1:32:42Dax Shepard?

  I was like, oh, this is nice padding. I put them on for the first time. I felt like Panay always talks about like, a ventize your run. I was like, well, these are built for nothing other than riding a bicycle.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:32:51Dax Shepard?

  And let's do that. And the padding was nice and I love that there's no fabric flowing anywhere else. I think I went up the hill faster because of them.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  Probably aerodynamics.

• 1:33:02Dax Shepard?

  I'm not going to adopt the Lycra shirt though. I decided. I swore a wife beater.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  So you're back home?

• 1:33:09Dax Shepard?

  I'm back home. I'm very, very, very happy to be back home.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  I got you a present for your birthday. Do you want to open it?

• 1:33:14Dax Shepard?

  I would love to open it. Let me really take my time here. I'm looking at a beautiful tissue paper with, oh, can I say one thing? This will sound derogatory, but let me preface it by saying, I could be in the tourism board for Mexico City. I love it. It's an enchanted.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  I wanna go.

• 1:33:33Dax Shepard?

  Romantic city. Food's dynamite. If you ever go, go to Havre 77 French restaurant. We went twice. The French onion soup's the best I've ever had in my life. On the second trip on my birthday night, I got two bowls of it to start.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  Wow, like when you got two steaks?

• 1:33:49Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and I would, I would tear out a fingernail right now to have it again. And share it with you. It was the most incredible. But anyways, the facial tissue, and I had a cold, it wasn't ideal. And where it really hit me was.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  One ply?

• 1:34:03Dax Shepard?

  Maybe less. I was on, at a nice hotel, mind you.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Dax Shepard?

  We got on the flight, I went into the bathroom, and I pulled the tissue out of the mirror that's in the lavatory of the airplane. And the second I touched it, I was like, ooh, that's soft. And then I thought, how bad was the tissue where the airplane tissue felt like Puffs Plus with lotion?

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Oh my.

• 1:34:25Dax Shepard?

  Just to make it relative.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz that's one ply.

• 1:34:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it was like 0.6 ply.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:34:32Dax Shepard?

  Anyways, beautiful tissue paper.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:34Dax Shepard?

  With purple flowers, really nice.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  The tissue is from Nikki Kehoe, the present is not.

• 1:34:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, this is a multi-stage gift.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay, beautiful tissue paper, and then a burlap sack.

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, also from Nikki Kehoe. That's how they wrap.

• 1:34:48Dax Shepard?

  Wonderful.

• 1:34:51Dax Shepard?

  Oh, buddy, the stories of Raymond Carver. Will you please be quiet, please? Is this an original?

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  I bought it as a first edition, and it is signed.

• 1:35:05Dax Shepard?

  It's signed?

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:08Dax Shepard?

  Did you pay the face value of $8.95?

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  No, it was on sale, actually, half off.

• 1:35:15Dax Shepard?

  What year was this published? Cuz we can, I think it's fascinating that a hardcover, beautifully bound book was 8.95.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  I know, that's true.

• 1:35:23Dax Shepard?

  I know I'm all over the place and a little manic, but I just gotta add back to Little Women. Which I love.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:32Dax Shepard?

  As you know, Greta Gerwig's number one superfan now. At the end of that movie, they show them pressing and making her first book. The book, Little Women.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:42Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if you remember that sequence.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  I don't know. I remember.

• 1:35:45Dax Shepard?

  But the amount of time and effort it took to make a book in the 1890s. Where they're pressing it all, they were cutting it with a saw, they were sewing the binding by hand. And then they were cutting leather out in a pattern and then gluing and putting that in a press. I'm like, it took like a week to make a single volume. They should have been $600.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. Well, that's why they're so rare.

• 1:36:10Dax Shepard?

  And it explains why. I think it was Carnegie who invented the library. There were no libraries. Books were just too expensive. They were like, probably in today's dollars, they probably were hundreds of dollars.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Dax Shepard?

  That amount of manpower. Okay. So this was first published.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  We think about wealth disparity now.

• 1:36:27Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  But then, in order to even read a book, you had to be a millionaire.

• 1:36:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'll get the number wrong, but to put it into perspective, like, so I guess Elon is now worth $400 billion recently. Although that stock just fell, whatever, let's just say he hit 400 billion. 400 billion of our total GDP and national amount of money isn't even 0.01%.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:52Dax Shepard?

  When Rockefeller hit a billion, he, they say he actually had like 15 cents of every dollar that existed in America. So it's like, as bad as it feels now, it was.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  It was bad, worse.

• 1:37:05Dax Shepard?

  Exponential order of magnitude crazier with the first rich people.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:37:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so this was 1963. So this book cost 895 in 1963.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  How much do we think that is now? Rob, can you put it in?

• 1:37:21Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's a great, we have that technology.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, we sure do.

• 1:37:24Dax Shepard?

  I added a new, I actually wrote up my resolutions last night.

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 1:37:28Dax Shepard?

  Which I don't know if I've ever written them down.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wrote some down too.

• 1:37:31Dax Shepard?

  You did. Did you journal this morning?

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  I did. I journaled every day.

• 1:37:35Dax Shepard?

  I'm proud of you.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  I had therapy too, and we talked. About it and she said I it I could

• 1:37:42Dax Shepard?

  Burn them?

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, or shred them or whatever. Um, but

• 1:37:46Dax Shepard?

  Can I have her number?

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  No. She's like, if that's gonna allow you to really be able to be honest and truthful with yourself in a way you won't be able to otherwise.

• 1:37:59Dax Shepard?

  And let it out of your body.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  You know, sometimes her and I talk about, like, there are things that I talk about with her that I that only she only she gets to hear. And she said, you know, it's not just me. You also have you.

• 1:38:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  And you have a dialogue with you can have a dialogue with yourself.

• 1:38:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Especially via the journal.

• 1:38:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  But but yes, of course, I have to be very honest with myself there. And so if I if I'm out of fear not doing that, then it's not worth it. So I do. I'm still deciding.

• 1:38:35Dax Shepard?

  We may have talked about this, um, but and I had mentioned there was a period I stopped journaling over the last 20 years. And then I had a relapse, obviously. And I didn't even put all this together, but through therapy with Mark.

• 1:38:50Dax Shepard?

  I think what occurred to me was I there were things I I couldn't write down, just like you were saying, are you afraid someone's gonna find it? And I'm like, no. But in truth, there was a moment, yes, I'd be afraid someone would find it. And I had this weird dedication to never lie to that journal.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:39:10Dax Shepard?

  So I just couldn't. I didn't. It didn't feel like I was making a decision to stop journaling. It just was like, this is really weird. I've been journaling for 17 years or whatever. And I haven't in a while, but I'm not overthinking it. But of course, in reflection was like, I couldn't really. Yeah, be dishonest to this thing.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:28Dax Shepard?

  I love this. This is such a thoughtful, wonderful present.

• 1:39:31Speaker 04

  It would have cost $89.18.

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:39:35Dax Shepard?

  $89 for a book.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  That's a lot. It's not enough, though. I wish it was 5,000.

• 1:39:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay, this is a fantastic present, very thoughtful. Thank you so much.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 1:39:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, how was therapy?

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  It was good. It's my first therapy of the new year. Um, you know, for a second I was debating, I was like, maybe I only need to start going like as check-ins now. Like, maybe I don't really need to be on this consistent of a schedule. But then today I was, I was like, no, I need to keep up my, my once every two.

• 1:40:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, look, I've stopped, so I really am in no position to say this.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:15Dax Shepard?

  But it definitely falls under the umbrella of like, well, it couldn't hurt to go.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  It does not hurt.

• 1:40:22Dax Shepard?

  And it potentially could hurt to not go.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:26Dax Shepard?

  It's kind of the vitamin debate. It's like the scientific community is kind of split down the middle whether vitamins work or not.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:31Dax Shepard?

  But it's like, I don't know, on the chance that they work.

• 1:40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:34Dax Shepard?

  And they're not going to harm you. All right, someone's going to comment. There are, yes, I hear you.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  There are some bad ones.

• 1:40:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I know. And you can have too much of certain things, but just in general, if you're taking the, you know, not above the daily dose of any one thing, it's not going to harm you.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  Speaking of, okay, you know how I'm always paranoid about drowning my cells?

• 1:40:53Dax Shepard?

  And too much water?

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, or people in general, like drinking too much water and then drowning their cells and you.

• 1:40:58Dax Shepard?

  You know, Gundry's new movement is less water, not shockingly.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  So him and I are aligned.

• 1:41:07Speaker 04

  Soulmates.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Why he's got those fresh hands. He doesn't drink any water.

• 1:41:12Dax Shepard?

  No hydration.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I'm going to put my hair up real time. If you want to see it.

• 1:41:16Dax Shepard?

  It looks so good down, but go ahead. Let's see what happens there.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Okay. If you want to see it, go to YouTube.

• 1:41:21Dax Shepard?

  Do you ever do an up and then a braid and back?

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, well, I did it for, when's this out?

• 1:41:28Speaker 04

  Uh, the eighth.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  I did it for, uh, a commercial we were just in together.

• 1:41:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. That comes out yesterday.

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  It came out yesterday.

• 1:41:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Our little commercial.

• 1:41:41Dax Shepard?

  Yes, our second commercial of I hope many.

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. It was so fun. And it's out. It was out yesterday. It's on our Instagrams.

• 1:41:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  And in it, I do have a ponytail with a braid.

• 1:41:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  That I love. It's just really hard for me to do. On my own. I had a hairstylist that day.

• 1:42:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right, right.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  But I do like it.

• 1:42:02Dax Shepard?

  Maybe your therapist can style your hair on the days you don't want to share.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  Oh, hair play? I would go every day.

• 1:42:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  I'd pay for that. Anyway, um, okay, so drowning cells, everyone, everyone laughs at me. They guffaw. And I met someone who drowned his cells.

• 1:42:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  And it was really bad.

• 1:42:24Dax Shepard?

  Tell me more.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:42:25Dax Shepard?

  Who did you meet? Where'd you meet him? In front of 7-Eleven?

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  No, he's a real person I know. I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna out.

• 1:42:30Dax Shepard?

  Him or her's name.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  Right. He's a friend of a friend. This is a sad story. I'm transitioning into a sad story. When I was.

• 1:42:38Dax Shepard?

  If you were having fun and laughing, stop.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, stop. A big group of friends was meeting and one Robbie.

• 1:42:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, sweet Robbie from our chain.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  Yes, from the connections chain, wasn't there. I was like, where's Robbie? And his wife said, oh, he's at the hospital. With.

• 1:42:57Dax Shepard?

  A mutual.

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  Yes, with.

• 1:43:00Dax Shepard?

  The unmentionable.

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  No, cuz.

• 1:43:02Dax Shepard?

  He's not underwear.

• 1:43:03Speaker 04

  Cause that's his name?

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  No. We can't call him untouchable because he's Indian.

• 1:43:10Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he is?

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so now I'm giving a lot of info away.

• 1:43:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's pretty easy to narrow this down at some point. If you know an Indian in Atlanta who's friends with Robbie.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  That's true. There is one. There is one. Anyway, this is sad. This is sad. And he had a seizure.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  And I guess he had already had a seizure a year before. And was on seizure medication and stuff, but when he.

• 1:43:37Dax Shepard?

  You're the perfect person to tell this story because you have the same condition.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And I'm Indian. When he went the first time after his seizure, they checked his salinity levels. And they were so low. And he did drink in like really.

• 1:43:55Dax Shepard?

  Excessive.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Excessive amount of water.

• 1:43:57Dax Shepard?

  Do we know why?

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  And he drowned his cells.

• 1:43:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he got rid of too much salt, but.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  He drowned his cells.

• 1:44:02Dax Shepard?

  That was the medical?

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:44:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. Um, you have a good deal of salt, I think, from your diet. Don't take offense to that.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Are you referring to like the potatoes I made or something?

• 1:44:14Dax Shepard?

  No, but you like, you'll have a nice seasoned chicken. I think you have a good amount.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel fine about my salinity.

• 1:44:22Dax Shepard?

  Yes, um, so.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  And I don't drink any water. So I'm good there.

• 1:44:26Dax Shepard?

  Do we know why he was drinking so much water? Was he on like an exercise routine?

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  He was ex- he was on an exercise routine and I'm not sure why. Anyway, so turns out, per usual, I'm right. You can drown yourselves.

• 1:44:42Dax Shepard?

  Per usual.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 1:44:44Dax Shepard?

  Unsurprisingly.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  Please look out for that.

• 1:44:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  I think I brought that up.

• 1:44:49Dax Shepard?

  You and Andre should collab on this.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  I'm happy to join forces.

• 1:44:53Dax Shepard?

  Also, just if you are having a lot of water, maybe use some.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  Electrolytes.

• 1:44:59Dax Shepard?

  Electrolytes, that's right. Keep an eye on your electrolytes.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Dax Shepard?

  There the case, the only cases I've ever heard of is like, no one's ever died from ecstasy, but people have drank too much water.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  Exactly. They drowned their cells.

• 1:45:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, okay. Okay. I wonder if they drown their cells or if when they drink way too much water, it backs up like congenital heart failure, basically like ends up filling up their body. Cause you know, my father, who had congenital heart, I don't know if it's congenital. He had heart disease and what would regularly happen is his heart was too big on one side and normal on one side. And so it would pump in a lot, but it couldn't pump out a lot. And then it just ends up backing your whole body up with water and you, you get really bloated. You put on all this water weight and then it starts really affecting your breathing and your lungs and everything else. And so my dad would go into the hospital for like four days and all he'd be on diuretics and he'd just be getting rid of gallons of water.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Right. Oh my God.

• 1:45:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  Okay. It says, yes, cells can drown in a condition called water intoxication or hyponatremia, which occurs when there's too much water in the body. When there's too much water in the body, sodium levels drop, causing water to move into cells and causing them to swell. This can be especially dangerous for brain cells as it can lead to pressure in the brain. Confusion, drowsiness.

• 1:46:21Dax Shepard?

  Wait, no, epilepsy, pressure in the brain might have been completely all related.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:46:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, man. Well, I'm sending love and well wishes to this anonymous person.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  Untouchable.

• 1:46:33Dax Shepard?

  Why does Robbie have two very close Indian epileptic friends?

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:46:40Dax Shepard?

  He's very over indexed.

• 1:46:44Speaker 01

  He is extremely over indexed.

• 1:46:46Dax Shepard?

  I consider myself kind of unique in America, low percentage where I have a best friend who's Indian and epileptic. And he's got now two?

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:46:55Dax Shepard?

  He has a fetish. I know you don't like that word, but.

• 1:46:58Speaker 01

  You think it's a kink?

• 1:46:59Dax Shepard?

  Ask if there's a third. If there's a third, he has a condition.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is weird. Then I wondered, is like.

• 1:47:08Dax Shepard?

  What ethnicity is Robbie's wife?

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  White.

• 1:47:11Dax Shepard?

  White?

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, she doesn't have it. Actually.

• 1:47:14Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Is he giving everyone this?

• 1:47:20Speaker 04

  He's poisoning everyone.

• 1:47:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God. He's so sweet. That would make sense. He's one of the sweetest people I've ever met over text.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  He has a dark side.

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Hi, Robbie.

• 1:47:30Dax Shepard?

  Nasty.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  So his wife is my oldest best friend.

• 1:47:35Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  And when we were in high school, she had seizures and they were dating at that time.

• 1:47:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  And she got in this car accident because she had one. Hers were different, though. She had like, she didn't have grandma seizures.

• 1:47:51Dax Shepard?

  Were you about to say petite?

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Petite mall. That's what they're called.

• 1:47:54Dax Shepard?

  That's so cute.

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  And then she had.

• 1:47:55Dax Shepard?

  You picture like a mall, you'd walk in, but there's only three stores. And then there's the food court is like four food carts.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  They should call it boutique seizures.

• 1:48:04Dax Shepard?

  That's way better.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's cute.

• 1:48:06Dax Shepard?

  You and Gundry can work on that.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Anyway, yes, he has three.

• 1:48:13Dax Shepard?

  There's a fourth. I mean, I only know of three people in his life and all three of them have seizures. So certainly there's more. Should we get Robbie on the phone?

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Do you want to?

• 1:48:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. We gotta grill him about this.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  I mean, he's definitely at work.

• 1:48:27Dax Shepard?

  On Saturday?

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I forgot.

• 1:48:28Dax Shepard?

  During an NFL playoff game? I'm so sorry, Georgia lost, by the way.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  Oh, no, the Sugar Bowl?

• 1:48:34Dax Shepard?

  You didn't know that?

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  They lost?

• 1:48:36Dax Shepard?

  They lost.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  To who? Don't say Texas.

• 1:48:40Dax Shepard?

  They didn't lose to Texas, but Texas won theirs. Texas is still in it.

• 1:48:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, Notre Dame.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  But they're still in it. Because, oh no.

• 1:48:48Dax Shepard?

  That game we saw was one of our only two losses. They ended up being really.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  I know, but they played.

• 1:48:55Dax Shepard?

  Welcome to the SCC bitch. Is that what he said?

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. Hold on, I gotta call Robbie. He's the one also that knows about.

• 1:49:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he's not at work. He's at the hospital, one of his Minneapolis.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Don't say that. Knock on wood.

• 1:49:09Speaker 05

  Hello?

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  Hey Robbie.

• 1:49:11Speaker 05

  Yeah?

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  You're on Candid Camera. You are on.

• 1:49:16Dax Shepard?

  Armchair Candid.

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  You're on air?

• 1:49:18Speaker 05

  I'm on air.

• 1:49:19Dax Shepard?

  And can you hear, do we have your consent and can you hear me?

• 1:49:22Speaker 05

  Yes, yes, yes to both, yes.

• 1:49:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Well, we started, we wanted to call you about some, one thing, but now we have two things to talk to you about that are very important.

• 1:49:31Dax Shepard?

  And we did not name any names, but I'm just learning of the fact that you have a second Indian friend with epilepsy, which I find to be almost statistically impossible. And then Monty said, it doesn't stop there. His wife has epilepsy.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Well, she doesn't have, okay, not specific epilepsy, but you do have three people in your life that have had seizures. And it's, now we're starting to worry.

• 1:49:54Dax Shepard?

  And think you're at the.

• 1:49:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, I see where you're going. I honestly hadn't ever thought of this.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  That's what, that's what he would say.

• 1:50:04Dax Shepard?

  So my, I have some.

• 1:50:05Speaker 05

  Monica, my sister too.

• 1:50:06Dax Shepard?

  I knew it. I fucking knew it. I said, I, Robbie, I said, there's a fourth for sure.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Fuck. Robbie?

• 1:50:16Dax Shepard?

  What are you doing to everyone?

• 1:50:18Speaker 05

  I don't know. I really don't know. Oh my gosh. I'm starting looking at things in my life. I don't know.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  This is wild.

• 1:50:25Dax Shepard?

  Do you think it's because you're so calm and sweet, it may, all of a sudden the other person's brain feels erratic and, and unhinged? Is it like relative to your calmness, people short circuit?

• 1:50:36Speaker 05

  It could be. I mean, yeah, that's the best. I think that's the best we have to work on right now.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  My guess is Gina would say otherwise.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  But this is wild for Robbie. Four is a lot.

• 1:50:50Dax Shepard?

  Now I mean sincere. It is there something environmental in Duluth where half the population.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  Wait, no, because mine happened once I left.

• 1:51:02Dax Shepard?

  But you grew up with that water.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  Oh, you think it's the water?

• 1:51:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you have late onset.

• 1:51:09Dax Shepard?

  Duluth.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  Because I didn't drink enough water and then it caught up.

• 1:51:13Dax Shepard?

  I'm not, I'm not knowing about the logic of that. But what I'm saying is there's something in the soil where you grew up where 70% of all people have seizures.

• 1:51:21Speaker 05

  There's gotta be. Monica's house was super close to mine. The other friend also lived like right down the road too.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  And Gina.

• 1:51:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. Honestly, if you draw, if you draw like a polygon of the four points, it's like a very small area. And so likely shared whatever water source. Yeah. It's pretty, pretty narrow there. Yeah.

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 1:51:47Dax Shepard?

  Guys, did we just break an enormous case? Do we need to call the New York Times immediately?

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 1:51:53Speaker 05

  You're going to have to do a new podcast. You're going to start a new podcast where you're investigating this issue.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:51:58Dax Shepard?

  It's going to be called Poison Paradise. Under the veil of suburban beauty and tranquility.

• 1:52:04Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:52:05Dax Shepard?

  Lies of bubbling poison that results in the shudders.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  That's a lot of words. That's a lot. That's too many words. You need it to be small, short.

• 1:52:12Dax Shepard?

  No, no, first was the title and then I was, then I was, then I was entering into the first episode.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:52:18Speaker 05

  He got going already. I mean, you're halfway there, it sounds like.

• 1:52:21Dax Shepard?

  This thing writes itself.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Okay, now we have, moving on to point number two, that's.

• 1:52:25Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, I have one follow up on that, Robbie.

• 1:52:27Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:52:28Dax Shepard?

  In your free time, which I know you don't have much of, just can you sniff around, see if any more folks have had seizures? Like, okay.

• 1:52:35Speaker 05

  I will. Yeah, I'll report back. Yeah, I'll just, I'll start kind of casually throwing that into the conversation I have. Like, so by the way, you know, this is kind of weird, but you have a history of epilepsy and just kind of move on from there.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

• 1:52:50Dax Shepard?

  That's gonna work.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  Um, okay, now point number two is football. And you are my main source of information for football. Um.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  I was texting you during the Texas Georgia game and we were, we were secretly gloating while I was amongst a bunch of Texans and then Dax just told me that then Texas went on to like win all the rest of the game.

• 1:53:12Dax Shepard?

  They're still in it, yeah.

• 1:53:14Speaker 05

  They're still in it, yeah, so they, they have a tough matchup against Ohio State because Ohio State looks really good right now, but uh, yeah, they're still in it.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  But does that be like a fluke?

• 1:53:26Dax Shepard?

  Shut up.

• 1:53:27Speaker 05

  Well, it can't be a fluke because the only team to beat Texas this year is Georgia. Georgia's beat Texas twice this year.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  Oh, twice. So, but it's then it's kind of a fluke that we aren't, like, it doesn't make sense that we beat them twice and we're now out.

• 1:53:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know how it's like, how can you, how can Federer be the best ever if he can't ever beat it all? You know? It's very similar.

• 1:53:50Dax Shepard?

  We all have our albatrosses.

• 1:53:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, alright, well, that clears that up, I guess.

• 1:53:58Dax Shepard?

  And I just want to end on this, Robbie, your voice was built for radio.

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  It's a great voice.

• 1:54:03Dax Shepard?

  You must be involved in Poison Paradise.

• 1:54:06Speaker 05

  I'd love to help you, let me know. I'm a hard worker too, so yeah, just let me know what you need.

• 1:54:11Dax Shepard?

  Alright.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  Alright, thanks Robbie.

• 1:54:14Speaker 05

  Alright, thanks guys, take it easy.

• 1:54:16Speaker 02

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:54:25Dax Shepard?

  We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace and I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run.

• 1:55:09Dax Shepard?

  Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

• 1:55:20Dax Shepard?

  That was a great use of time.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:22Dax Shepard?

  I wasn't expecting his voice to be that velvety.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  He's a very handsome man. You know, I only have handsome and beautiful friends.

• 1:55:28Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  This has started from day one.

• 1:55:30Dax Shepard?

  Good for you.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  I know. Anywho.

• 1:55:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay, good luck to... Will you plug your ears?

• 1:55:36Dax Shepard?

  Good luck to UT. Hook 'em.

• 1:55:39Speaker 01

  I'm cutting that.

• 1:55:40Dax Shepard?

  This is the same as that story I told about the people flying to LA to watch the Red Sox play LA, hoping the Red Sox would lose because they had just beat New York. But the other guy was like, "No, they must win. That way, New York's number two." Wouldn't you want your team to have twice beat the champions?

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  I guess you're right.

• 1:55:58Dax Shepard?

  I think it's time for you to like, transition into rooting for them for your own.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  Hmm, for my own gain.

• 1:56:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Okay, I see that logic.

• 1:56:07Dax Shepard?

  Speaking of which, and I know we're all over the map and have taken up too much time, but I just, I wanna, I wanna go on to say that I finished the Churchill documentary on the flight home yesterday. And I got very swept up in it. This has happened a few times, and I'm sure you've watched shows on this. When you are forced to watch what the Brits went through, 57 nights in a row of carpet bombing of London, everyone sleeping in the subway, no bathrooms, getting up, going straight to work, and carrying the fuck on. And they were so outgunned and outmanned and out everything. And they alone took on Nazi Germany at that point. Everyone was already defeated.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:54Dax Shepard?

  The amount of will and resolve is so historic. I found myself like, this is so cheesy, I found myself being like, really proud that I know Jethro.

• 1:57:10Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:57:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I was like, "By God, that little island, you motherfuckers refused."

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:17Dax Shepard?

  And Churchill... He is a very flawed person. He was horrendous to India. I'll acknowledge that. But truly, one man got those people to that state of mind. If you watch this doc, you're like, who knows if that person doesn't exist, what happens? Cause he had two burdens. One is to be fighting off these Nazis who are just bombing every single night. Trying to keep morale high. And he has got to get America into the war, or they're gonna die. Everyone's gonna die, because they're not gonna surrender. And so his skill at wooing FDR and developing this relationship and slowly getting us more and more involved

• 1:58:00Dax Shepard?

  is so impressive. And his own story is so unique in that he was a soldier during in his youth, and he was an incredible soldier. Then he went into politics and he was a boy wonder, because he was right, the whole time he was in the war, he was also a reporter. So he was reporting firsthand from all these wars, and he's one of the best writers to ever live. So he was in this crazy, unique situation where he leaves the service as a hugely popular figure in Britain. Goes into politics, has this meteoric rise, and then plateaus, and then plummets. And he's completely on the outs, and he can't get anything done.

• 1:58:39Dax Shepard?

  And then World War I comes along, and he decides in his 40s or 50s to rejoin the army. He becomes a commander. He wins all this glory, returns, and for four years is begging Britain to understand Hitler cannot be trusted, and don't believe a thing he's saying, and we can't be signing these deals. And no one's listening, no one's listening. He never relents. And finally, the Brits realize he has been right the whole time. And overnight, he becomes Prime Minister. Like, the story of the up and the down and the out and the miscast and the it's, it's, what a story.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:18Dax Shepard?

  Horrible to the Indians. Let's be clear. A colonist, grew up in Elizabethan England, definitely wanted the empire to stay alive. Also miraculous feat of will and resolve in the poetry with how he motivated people. He gave this speech to our Congress to help us embrace the fact that we were entering the war. And it's like the most incredible speech. It's an, I cannot recommend the doc enough.

• 1:59:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:59:45Dax Shepard?

  I don't know why I went on that tangent, but it's been burning a hole in my brain.

• 1:59:56Dax Shepard?

  I know, I'm making you nervous. My energy levels are 15.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not making me nervous. It's, it's like.

• 2:00:03Dax Shepard?

  Go ahead.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  No, it's just like, where's it going?

• 2:00:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I'm just sharing all the things that I missed out on sharing in the last three weeks.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  God, you're, you're so much like my father.

• 2:00:16Dax Shepard?

  I am.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  He just loves to explain stuff.

• 2:00:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's kind of a male trait.

• 2:00:24Dax Shepard?

  But does that story, like, is there a male female thing going on? Is this the Roman Empire? Like, does that whole chapter just like not interest you?

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  Parts do, but not that part.

• 2:00:36Dax Shepard?

  Of an individual story where someone's like completely discarded and publicly reviled, then finds their way back, then becomes so valued and important, then gets discarded again, and then doesn't quit, like has a calling that can't be ignored. And then matched with this like Shakespearean ability to write speeches.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I, I'm, I'm more into like the Anne Frank story of that era. Like, I, I don't, I guess I'm, I'm really not drawn deeply to people in power. Like, I'm not, that's not a thing.

• 2:01:20Dax Shepard?

  You're drawn to the disenfranchised.

• 2:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:21Dax Shepard?

  This makes total sense.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  Well, I just find that way more.

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  As a human's story way more compelling. I find that kind of overcoming, like a true overcoming, much more compelling.

• 2:01:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  Than someone who's like, just feeding off power.

• 2:01:43Dax Shepard?

  I think the thing that interests me about it is, as big as this world is, and as complex and dynamic as it is, single individuals radically change the face of the world.

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  Yes, I find that fascinating. Those figures, they don't do it for me.

• 2:02:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they don't, they don't get you going.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  I'm kind of like, towards them, you know?

• 2:02:08Dax Shepard?

  For the listener, she just kind of, it was an interesting one. It wasn't an eye roll, it was a back and forth, side to side.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  Speaking of.

• 2:02:15Dax Shepard?

  Go ahead.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  Eye roll.

• 2:02:17Dax Shepard?

  You found the origin of your.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  I figured it out. I figured out where my eye roll comes from. We thought it was an Indian thing.

• 2:02:26Dax Shepard?

  Or just maybe a genetic innate thing.

• 2:02:28Speaker 01

  Thought it was maybe just a full resentment I have of everything and everyone. We didn't know, but I knew that's not right. That's not it. It's a habit, but why? And now I know.

• 2:02:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, you sent it to me, so I saw it.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  Well, I'm gonna show the world.

• 2:02:44Dax Shepard?

  The world, show the world. And I'm gonna have to describe for the listener, because let's just be, let's be clear, 98% of our audience is still just listening, not watching.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Check us out on YouTube and you can see this.

• 2:02:53Dax Shepard?

  Yes, please do. All right, so for the listener, it is a two or three-year-old, Mary-Kate and/or Ashley Olsen from The Full House program. It says "duh" across the screen. She's shaking her head and she gives the most expressive eye roll you've ever seen.

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:11Dax Shepard?

  And she has, or they have, enormous Disney eyeballs, where it's very expressive and clear.

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:19Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  We got it?

• 2:03:22Dax Shepard?

  We got it.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  All right. Now, I Full House was my original friends.

• 2:03:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  I was obsessed with it. The only time I was ever punished for my parents, the punishment was I couldn't watch Full House that night. That's in my cells.

• 2:03:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  That's where I got it. I got it from original Mary Kate and Ashley Full House.

• 2:03:40Dax Shepard?

  You started probably reenacting it.

• 2:03:43Speaker 01

  Always.

• 2:03:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, aping it.

• 2:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, mimicking. They were my models then and now.

• 2:03:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. It might be all the way though, the end.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  I think it is.

• 2:03:52Dax Shepard?

  They might be your Erin Weekly. I mean, you already have your Erin Weekly.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think it would be sad if they're my Erin Weekly because they don't know me. But, um, but they are my ride or die.

• 2:04:04Dax Shepard?

  What I'll say is they're radically different people, which is so fascinating.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. I guess that makes sense, but also doesn't make sense. Well, they're not identical twins. You know that, right?

• 2:04:16Dax Shepard?

  They have to be. Baloney.

• 2:04:19Speaker 01

  They're fraternal twins.

• 2:04:20Dax Shepard?

  No. Well, sisters have never looked that much alike.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 2:04:27Dax Shepard?

  Do we know this for positive?

• 2:04:30Speaker 04

  AI Google says that.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Thank you. I've, I know, I know.

• 2:04:35Dax Shepard?

  They're not.

• 2:04:36Speaker 01

  That's like me saying I know something about Valentino Rossi.

• 2:04:40Dax Shepard?

  Ooh, tell me, what do you know?

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  I know nothing.

• 2:04:42Dax Shepard?

  Yellow 46?

• 2:04:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's the whole point. Anyway.

• 2:04:45Dax Shepard?

  I'm impressed you remembered his name.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  Thank you. So, yeah.

• 2:04:49Speaker 04

  One's left, one's left-handed, one's right-handed.

• 2:04:52Dax Shepard?

  But that's super common in twins.

• 2:04:54Speaker 04

  And one's one inch taller than the other.

• 2:04:55Dax Shepard?

  Even when they're identical.

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  Well, they're fraternal.

• 2:04:59Dax Shepard?

  But that could be a posture thing.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  Okay, whatever.

• 2:05:01Dax Shepard?

  All right, let's stop.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  They're fraternal twins.

• 2:05:03Dax Shepard?

  I believe you.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 2:05:05Dax Shepard?

  You'd never know it by looking at them. Don't judge a book by its cover.

• 2:05:09Speaker 01

  You would not. I mean, I agree with you. It's shocking.

• 2:05:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I've met a lot of boy-girl twins and they have all told, they have all had the experience where someone asked if their twin was identical, even though they knew one was a boy, one was a girl.

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:05:24Dax Shepard?

  Yes. I'm telling you.

• 2:05:26Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, some people don't understand twins.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  They don't understand what identical means versus fraternal.

• 2:05:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:34Speaker 01

  They must not, or...

• 2:05:36Dax Shepard?

  It must be way lower percentage that you get a boy and a girl than same gendered twins.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  For fraternal?

• 2:05:43Dax Shepard?

  For fraternal.

• 2:05:44Speaker 01

  I think the opposite.

• 2:05:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you do?

• 2:05:46Speaker 01

  I feel like if most fraternal twins I know are boy and girl.

• 2:05:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 2:05:51Speaker 01

  That's why, that's why they are very confusing.

• 2:05:54Dax Shepard?

  We should have a twins expert on.

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:05:56Dax Shepard?

  Because what that means is that there were two over in the uterus and that one male sperm and one female sperm hit the two. And generally, you would think, well, either the males were making it because they swim slower and they're more robust, or vice versa. And one swam fast. So it's weird that one would swim fast, but you know what I'm saying? I don't know.

• 2:06:15Speaker 01

  The body is a wonderland.

• 2:06:17Dax Shepard?

  It is a wonderland.

• 2:06:17Speaker 01

  John Mayer.

• 2:06:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:19Speaker 01

  All right, let's do a little bit of facts. This is for Ken Goldberg. He was wonderful. I really, really liked him.

• 2:06:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what a unicorn.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  A lot. Okay, now, this episode starts with your underwear on the floor.

• 2:06:33Dax Shepard?

  Which was interesting.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  That was shocking.

• 2:06:35Dax Shepard?

  That's an experience to look down in your underwears outside your pants, because your first thought is, my underwear.

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:42Dax Shepard?

  Came off my...

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  Flipped off, yeah.

• 2:06:44Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and it doesn't seem to be torn in half.

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:47Dax Shepard?

  That's a real, like, where am I at in time and space that my underwear has made itself off of my body and onto the floor?

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:55Dax Shepard?

  I mean, it's so obvious later when you think, it was clearly in my pant leg.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  I know, but in the moment, you can't think straight.

• 2:07:00Dax Shepard?

  My underwear's falling off. It's like in I Think You Should Leave, when Robinson, they put a whoopee cushion on his chair and he doesn't understand it. He goes, what happened? Like, he really is shook, because he didn't feel himself fart, but he heard a fart. What happened?

• 2:07:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, that's so funny. Okay, but also, so that happened, the underwear. But then I realized, when I was editing it, my, the inside out of my pant pocket.

• 2:07:28Dax Shepard?

  Was exposed?

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Was exposed the whole time.

• 2:07:31Dax Shepard?

  That's a weird coincidence.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  It is weird, and, but no one caught that. So the whole episode, the inside of my pant pocket is out.

• 2:07:38Dax Shepard?

  Which people could have thought might be her underwear. Like, you know it's the lining of your pocket, but other people could be like, why are there, why are both of their underwears falling off?

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  Now, the vaccination mark. The smallpox vaccine scar is a small mark you might have on your upper arm if you received the dry vacs or ACAM 2000 smallpox vaccines. It's a sign that the vaccine successfully spurred an immune response in your body to protect you against smallpox. Not many people receive a smallpox. Not many people receive a smallpox vaccine today, so the scar is far less common than it used to be. The smallpox vaccine leaves a scar because it causes a minor infection in your skin. Your body fights off the infection, but this process leaves behind a small mark on your skin where the infection and related inflammation took place.

• 2:08:27Dax Shepard?

  That makes a lot of sense. I assumed wrongly now that it had something to do with the mechanism of injecting it. Like, did they use some weird thing? Because again, my dad's was, I have such a good memory of my dad's. I don't know that my mom has one weirdly.

• 2:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:44Dax Shepard?

  But my dad's is like seared in my brain. And I was like, it looked like, I think I said, a cigar, like they administered it with a burning cigar.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  You can look at pictures online, they have them. And they do look like that. Okay, the book, the scientific management book that was influential on Stalin is called The Principles of Scientific Management by Frederick Taylor.

• 2:09:02Dax Shepard?

  See, this all paid off my diatribe on Churchill because Stalin was the trickiest figure in that triumvirate.

• 2:09:08Speaker 01

  Okay. Now, so Kim Kardashian posted some pictures with the Optimus robot. And then, and it said that Elon gave it to her. And she denies that she was paid for those pictures.

• 2:09:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Other than the free robot?

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09:28Dax Shepard?

  That she may or may not have.

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  This is what it says the robot can do, the Tesla Optimus robot. Okay, it says it can do physical labor. It says it can move materials, assemble parts, and load items onto machinery.

• 2:09:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm skeptical.

• 2:09:49Dax Shepard?

  I'm skeptical. That's how we do it without getting sued. I'm highly skeptical.

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  This is also on the AI overview. So they like their buddies.

• 2:09:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:09:58Speaker 01

  So he's

• 2:09:58Dax Shepard?

  They're all in cahoots.

• 2:09:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Inventory management. Optimus can use barcode or RFID scanning to track inventory in real time. Home chores. Optimus can carry groceries, help the elderly

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  and perform other

• 2:10:15Dax Shepard?

  What could only help elderly?

• 2:10:16Speaker 01

  I mean, that would be good. Data collection and research. Optimus can be used in labs or remote monitoring environments to collect data. I mean, that's just like

• 2:10:25Dax Shepard?

  That's a computer.

• 2:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Smart home integration. Optimus can link up with Tesla cars and energy systems to become part of a smart home. Optimus can walk among people and serve drinks at a bar.

• 2:10:37Dax Shepard?

  I doubt it, but I'm sorry, I'm skeptical.

• 2:10:40Speaker 01

  Heard about that. Okay, apparently there's a place in like Culver City or something that is run by, it's like a burger place that is run by robots and the robots drop off your food.

• 2:10:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I think I've heard that, but also my assumption of what that was was like very simple mechanized arms, not bipedal robots walking about.

• 2:11:01Dax Shepard?

  Like it can make it in the kitchen and it goes on a conveyor belt and then it's exactly lands in front of your thing. Doesn't necessarily mean that a bipedal robot carried it as much as there might be automation that gets it all the way to your

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  I think it's saying it delivers it to your table, but it might not be bipedal.

• 2:11:16Dax Shepard?

  We should go.

• 2:11:18Speaker 01

  We should go.

• 2:11:18Dax Shepard?

  I'd love to go to a robot restaurant. What is it?

• 2:11:20Speaker 04

  Cali Express in Pasadena.

• 2:11:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it's in Pasadena. That's much closer.

• 2:11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:25Dax Shepard?

  That's just up the odds of us actually doing that by a lot.

• 2:11:28Speaker 04

  I do think there's a little, a little guy that rides around and brings you your food.

• 2:11:33Speaker 01

  Cali Express by Flippy. The world's first fully autonomous restaurant. Grill and fry stations are automated.

• 2:11:42Speaker 04

  It looks like a little thing with serving trays and American flags that goes to your table.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  We'll have to go. But okay, it says Optimus can perform precise movements and heavy lifting. Optimus can adapt its behavior over time to reach the desired results. Optimus can play games like rock, paper, scissors.

• 2:12:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  So, anyway, that's what AI claims its buddy Optimus can do.

• 2:12:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  They're best friends.

• 2:12:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  And our robot feels a little left out.

• 2:12:12Dax Shepard?

  No, he's more boylike, remember?

• 2:12:15Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:12:15Dax Shepard?

  Big time glass half full.

• 2:12:16Speaker 01

  He's wondering what's going on, because like, there's a lot of other robots now.

• 2:12:19Dax Shepard?

  There are a lot of other robots. But he's like becoming charming and flawed. Wabu-sabi.

• 2:12:27Speaker 01

  Wabi-sabi.

• 2:12:28Dax Shepard?

  Wabi-sabi, Robbie-sabi.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  Robbie-rob-sabi. There was a... Prada has these bag chains that I really want, that are robots.

• 2:12:40Dax Shepard?

  Um, bag trash? Is that what it's called?

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  No, it's a bag chain.

• 2:12:46Dax Shepard?

  I'm learning this from Nicole. This is the movement now, is like you have these very fancy handbags, and then you put all these little trinkets that

• 2:12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:54Dax Shepard?

  far off the side, and I think she calls it like bag trash.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  Oh, she might, but they're called bag charms. And look, Prada has this one, this one's in like, um... This one's in like, snow gear.

• 2:13:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's really cute.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  Isn't it?

• 2:13:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I was about to be critical, I just think it's funny, fashion is very funny.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:13:15Dax Shepard?

  So you get this perfect outrageously expensive bag, and then you're supposed to like, dr- uh, drape some trash, obviously, like downplay it, it's like, what's happening?

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  I agree, I, but it's not trash, this is eleven hundred dollars.

• 2:13:26Dax Shepard?

  Well, I don't, I didn't say it was inexpensive.

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:13:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:29Speaker 01

  Well, okay, but I agree, I would not put, uh, people love bag charms, and I think that's great, and it's a way to like, show your identity, but they're not for me on my bag, but I want this little robot to just like, sit in my house.

• 2:13:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, that's great.

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's pretty big, look at him compared to the bag.

• 2:13:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's preposterous, he's larger than the bag.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. You said thirty-nine percent of US jobs are still manual labor. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, reported that thirty-nine point one percent of civilian workforce in the US performs physically demanding jobs that require lifting, carrying, pushing, pulling, kneeling, stooping, crawling, and climbing activities in varied environmental conditions.

• 2:14:08Dax Shepard?

  Sucking, fucking, don't leave out sex workers, that's manual labor.

• 2:14:14Dax Shepard?

  You know, we like, don't we honor sex workers?

• 2:14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm just wondering, is it really manual, yeah?

• 2:14:18Dax Shepard?

  It's definitely manual.

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  It's laborious.

• 2:14:23Speaker 01

  All right. Well, that's it for Ken.

• 2:14:27Dax Shepard?

  I'm glad we ended on that note for Ken. I think he would appreciate that.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  All right. Bye, Ken.

• 2:14:32Dax Shepard?

  Love you.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  Love you.