Ep. 702: How To Argue About Hunting and Fishing Like A Lawyer with Jefferson Fisher

Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en talks with Jefferson Fisher https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book, Ryan Callaghan https://www.instagram.com/olcal406/?hl=en, Brody Henderson https://www.instagram.com/brodyjhenderson/, Spencer Neuharth https://www.instagram.com/spencerneuharth/?hl=en, Randall Williams https://www.instagram.com/randall__williams/, Corinne Schneider https://www.instagram.com/corinnesschneider/?hl=en, and Phil Taylor https://www.instagram.com/philtaylor25/?hl=en. Topics discussed: How to communicate in tricky hunting and fishing scenarios; Jefferson’s book, “The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More” https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book; sharing the same literary agency; "How to Argue Like A Lawyer" https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher/?hl=en; chainsaw accidents and backing in so you can get out quickly later; “I’m always around but now always there”; courtroom tactics and how you don’t want teachers on the jury; Cal’s bench warrant for arrest; tons of advice on how to navigate tricky hunting and fishing situations well; “but” deletes everything after it and leading with “no”; and more. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Steven Rinella?

  Anywhere worth going this holiday season is better in comfortable boots. You can find the perfect pair for you or them if you're shopping for someone at Tacovus. My Tacovus are so comfortable, it's a problem because my high schooler is always trying to steal them. I love the feel of quality leather boots because then you know you're ready for anything. And Tacovus delivers that feeling with confidence and quality. I love them. And if you go to Tacovus store, prepare to be wowed by the customer service. Tacovus boots are handcrafted with over 200 meticulous steps for broken-in comfort right out of the box for the whole family. It's time to bring on the holiday cheer in classic fits and comfortable styles with a new pair of Tacovus Western Boots.

• 0:50Steven Rinella?

  From cowhide and goat to exotic leathers like ostrich and caiman, whether it's your first pair or your 50th pair, Tacovus has your new favorites. Right now, get 10% off at tacovus.com/meateater when you sign up for email and text. That's 10% off at T E C O V A S dot com slash meat eater. Tacovus.com slash meat eater. See site for details. Tacovus, point your toes west. Warning: This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Black Buffalo products are intended for adults aged 21 and older who are consumers of nicotine or tobacco.

• 1:29Steven Rinella?

  Black Buffalo spent 20,000 hours working alongside American farmers to build a tobacco alternative that actually dips like the real thing. Long cut ampouges made from barn cured leafy greens with no tobacco leaf or stem and wintergreen mint straight and more. Check your local gas station or C store or hit blackbuffalo.com and use code MEAT for 30% off your first order. Black Buffalo Tobacco Alternative is everything you love about dip, nothing you don't. A few weeks into hunting season, you usually have a pretty good idea of what gear is working and what you wish you had.

• 2:10Steven Rinella?

  That's where Tractor Supply comes in. Maybe you need another trail camera for a spot that's heating up, warmer layers for a cold front rolling in, or a cooler for when everything finally comes together. Whatever the season throws at you, Tractor Supply has the gear to keep you in the woods. Stop by your local Tractor Supply or shop tractorsupply.com. Hey guys, it's the Dog Days of May at the MeatEater.com. Come back here, cat. We're having a lot of extra podcast drops, articles, all about dogs, hunting with dogs, nothing about cats. Tune in now.

• 2:54Steven Rinella?

  This is the MeatEater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We're the MeatEater Podcast.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  You can't predict anything.

• 3:05Steven Rinella?

  The MeatEater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com.

• 3:26Steven Rinella?

  Joined today by Jefferson Fisher. I'm excited you're here, man. You know who's mostly excited to hear is Corinne. Listen to this. Do you know this story?

• 3:35Speaker 03

  I kind of just told him, but.

• 3:37Steven Rinella?

  Corinne, she knew, I was like, hey, I want to get this dude Jefferson Fisher on. And so it's in her mind and in her notes. Meanwhile, she's listening to a podcast. What's it called?

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Diary of a CEO.

• 3:47Steven Rinella?

  Diary of a CEO. And you're on it, but she doesn't make the connection. She listens, she likes it so much, she listens to it twice and shares it with people. And then one day she's like, oh, wow, that's the dude we're having on.

• 4:00Speaker 04

  There were two Jefferson Fishers.

• 4:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. There's a lot of us, tons of us. Well, yeah, we're always like kicking around so many names.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  Yes, I got like, yeah, 27 lists.

• 4:09Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, we got like, oh, what about, you know, maybe this guy be cool, this whatever. So she's like, sort of in her head is this thing I asked about when your book comes out. Yes. And then at the same time, she's listening to you and then one day has a like, oh. That's the dude.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Well, thank you, Corinne.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, you bet.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm honored to be here. This is the one like I was super nerding out about that I was got to be on this podcast.

• 4:32Steven Rinella?

  Jefferson Fisher is a, by training, a trial attorney from Texas, but he just published his first book called The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More.

• 4:44Steven Rinella?

  He's a hunter.

• 4:47Steven Rinella?

  I got turned on to him. We have, we're with the same literary agency.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:52Steven Rinella?

  Europa.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 4:53Steven Rinella?

  You know, where I've been with Mark at Europa, as I was just telling you earlier, for over 20 years.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, Mark is fantastic.

• 5:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he's the one that kind of like found me and moved me from magazine writing into books.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  So he was the one?

• 5:06Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  Okay, so Tess, who is kind of his protege, who works under him, is the one who found me. And she emailed me, just a cold email, and I'd had several others, but this, for whatever reason, I read hers, and the subject line was literally hello from a literary agent. Like, that was her subject line.

• 5:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's a pickup line.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so I had seen a few, and I looked it up, and I saw, of course, you go to see who they represent, and I saw your name, and I was like, no way. And because your name was on it, I said, yes, I'll, I'll go with y'all, because, I mean, I read your books.

• 5:47Steven Rinella?

  I didn't get like a commission?

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah. You need to talk to Mark about it, honestly. Yeah. Because I pretty much, anything was Meat Eater. I was buying, I think I bought every book, I've watched every episode.

• 5:59Steven Rinella?

  Oh, that's great, dude.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I got, I got the Benchmade Meat Eater knife. Like, I was, I was like, yeah, man. And so it was a huge influence of, like, when I talked to Tess, and I was like, did y'all really represent, uh, Rinella? And she's like, oh, yeah, he's, he's great. And then talked about Danielle, who I followed, I followed her before, all of her cooking stuff. And, yeah, and so to be here is just super full circle for me, man.

• 6:24Steven Rinella?

  That's awesome.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:25Steven Rinella?

  I got turned on to Jefferson by watching his, um, that this fellow we talked about shared his video series with me.

• 6:35Steven Rinella?

  Where you sit in your car. Well, tell them what you do. Tell them about your video.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I.

• 6:41Steven Rinella?

  This is good because this, let me. Everyone listening, this, this is highly, we're going to demonstrate, this is highly relevant to your life. How to communicate. Okay, but also we're going to learn today how to communicate in the trickiest hunting and fishing scenarios that people encounter. So how to navigate the awkward parts. But also you can use this. You don't call them tricks, do you?

• 7:04Speaker 00

  No, never.

• 7:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, because you're not like playing mind games.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  No, I mean, I guess you could say they are. I mean.

• 7:10Steven Rinella?

  You'll be able to use these tricks on your wife, too.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, if you, and just don't share this episode with her. Yeah.

• 7:16Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah, don't. Yeah, that's a good point, man.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:18Steven Rinella?

  If you're listening with your wife in a car right now. Change it. Because later, when you start influencing her heavy duty, she's going to know that she's going to be like, you're doing that from the podcast.

• 7:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's interesting because if you're, if you're writing on this subject, you don't want your reach to expand so far that your readers are using it on themselves and then all of a sudden it becomes obsolete.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I get a lot of comments of people saying, I'm using this on my husband or my wife and I don't tell them. And so I'll have people that will say, uh, or a couple. I'll have like a, a mom or a dad say, I'm using this on my wife and they asked me the other day, like, are you is that from that attorney guy?

• 8:03Speaker 00

  They're like, I saw that video too. Like, I, I know what you, I know what you're trying to do.

• 8:06Speaker 04

  All I can think about is the, uh, these aren't the droids you're looking for.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 04

  Is there a hand gesture involved, subtle one?

• 8:14Speaker 00

  I, I'd be honored if it was still very much the, the Jedi one that you're using. Yeah, so, um.

• 8:20Steven Rinella?

  The video, yeah, the videos you made.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I make videos. I, I started making videos in my car. So full time practicing trial attorney. And I left a big defense firm that was at and then started my own. And I thought, well, I need to be on social media. And so I started making videos and I thought I need to have the perfect lights, the perfect camera. And so I thought, I'll just. I got my truck. I got my car, kid's car seat in the back. I'll just make it where I'm at. And I thought, well, what do I need to do? I just tell them what I feel like I know. That's how to help people argue and communicate. And so I, I got my phone and said, how to argue like a lawyer? Part one. And then by like the fourth video, it had gone viral and then.

• 8:59Steven Rinella?

  It blew up that quick?

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, real quick.

• 9:01Steven Rinella?

  Five million followers.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have. Yeah, I think we're today. I think, I think we'll hit six million today on Instagram and we have about 12 million total on across the platform.

• 9:11Speaker 05

  And you obviously start each video.

• 9:12Steven Rinella?

  Good at arguing.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:14Steven Rinella?

  Say what? The whole world's gonna be good at arguing now.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, everybody's could be great. So, yeah, so I've been doing it for a little over two years now.

• 9:23Speaker 05

  You start each video with something catchy like, have you recently been exposed to? Have you recently been hit by?

• 9:31Speaker 00

  That's exactly right.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Okay, good. Yeah, I'm tracking you.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Mastectomy, asthma, all that. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Call, call this hotline.

• 9:40Speaker 05

  You may be entitled to.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 9:42Steven Rinella?

  But your video series wasn't meant to, like, the objective wasn't to drum up lawyer business?

• 9:47Speaker 00

  No, it never was. And so I found that when I was talking about the law, like the first few videos I made, just to kind of see how Instagram worked, because it used to not, they didn't always have video. I mean, video was only to compete with TikTok. And I didn't really like it. I just, I felt like it was trying to sell, sell stuff to everybody. So when I started my, how to argue like a lawyer? It would be like, how to have a difficult conversation. Number one, do this. Two, do this. Three, do this. And then that was it. And then those just started to really, people became where they would say, I, I binged them, where they would just go video after video after video. And I never saw any of this. I just considered this kind of a hobby and I would do it for about 30 minutes after work, between work and home. And that's how it happened.

• 10:32Steven Rinella?

  This has nothing to do with anything, but you know what I'm venging right now? It's my wife turned me on to it last night is this dude that this dude that sings. He does like a male and female role of singing the most like graphic awkward Tinder exchange.

• 10:48Speaker 03

  I know exactly who you're talking about.

• 10:50Steven Rinella?

  You're gonna have to share that with me. It's so, it's so, it's so graphic that I'm not gonna name. Yeah. Who he is, cuz I don't wanna be complicit.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Well, you're gonna have to share that with me.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  It's so funny.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  I love how you think.

• 11:00Steven Rinella?

  Some of these like very, very unusual distinct requests.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Oh, there's no doubt. There's no doubt. And what I love so much about this, it's just not the videos that are great. Now it's the comments are hilarious. Like you'll go to content just to read the comments. You know, people are hilarious. That's my favorite part about, but that's how I got started in all of this was just the videos in the car.

• 11:24Steven Rinella?

  What was your first exposure to hunting as a kid?

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Ah, um, my dad would take me probably six or seven go duck hunting. And put me on his shoulders while he was waiting. So we, um.

• 11:34Steven Rinella?

  Down in Texas.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Down in Texas. So we have a few different properties and this one is touches both the Angelina and the Natchez River. Right there below Lake Simraeburn.

• 11:44Steven Rinella?

  Is that how you say it? From if you're from there?

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:47Steven Rinella?

  Natchez?

• 11:48Speaker 00

  Natchez, yeah. Natchez.

• 11:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, in Montana, we say Natchez.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it's N-E-C-H-E-S, Natchez.

• 11:55Steven Rinella?

  I only care about what people, for me, the final word is what is the dude that lives there?

• 12:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's Natchez. Yeah. You got the Zabine, Angelina, Natchez. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, um, there's, um, it's just a marsh out there. And so we would. He would take me and we'd shoot, or he would shoot wood ducks. And then.

• 12:15Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then, um, I would get taken to go goose hunting. We'd go goose hunting every year. I mean, almost every year of my life, we've gone goose hunting down in Eagle Lake, which is not too far from Katy, Houston, west of Houston, big rice fields. And I was kind of the substitute dog, you know, I was the.

• 12:31Steven Rinella?

  You'd go find that one.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Exactly. And there was nothing more exciting. I mean, I would just take off to go find it. And so come back with, with the geese and then, um. I think starting about eight was the first time I actually started deer hunting with a rifle. So early. Yeah, way, way early. And then I can, I switched to bow hunting probably when I was about fourteen, fifteen. Switch, switched? Yeah. Hung up the gun? No, I mean, not totally, not, uh, yeah, yeah, that's, that's the different. That's my first question. Avid bow hunters, no, not to hack on them, avid, like, people that only hunt with a bow? Yeah. My first question is, um, like, uh, like a felony? You got something, you got something, you got something?

• 13:12Speaker 04

  You just run down all the questions on the four, four, seven, three?

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?

• 13:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. No, no, not, I did not hang it up, uh, for good. No, I just, that was the first time I really took up the bow and had a whole lot of fun with it when I was probably about fourteen, fifteen, right before I started driving. So that's where you're at now? Yeah. You're like, you're avid bow hunter now? Yeah, bow hunter for sure. Um, but also a gun gets the job done. So I, I'm not one of those that's, my grandfather is very much only bow. He got to where, um, because he couldn't pull it back because he had shoulder surgery, he did it with his teeth. Oh, you're kidding me? Why don't you guys buy him a crossbow? That's what we did. We did, we got him a crossbow eventually because he was losing too many teeth.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  So he started to lose too many teeth and so we're like, I said, Papa John, like, we gotta do something. So now he's, now he's got a crossbow that he steps on and pulls it back. And so he's one of these, he'll hunt until he can't hunt anymore. We actually just had, uh, a goose hunt up in, uh, Lubbock. And that was the first time that he didn't get a, he just couldn't get his gun up. Oh, really? Yeah. And that was like really, that was a really hard, yeah, that was like really, really hard on him, um, to realize he couldn't get it up fast enough. Hmm. So, but yeah, hunting's been part of my whole.

• 14:33Speaker 05

  Sounds like he's a good hunter though, because we recently hunted with, uh, a bunch of guys all in a big field set up this winter, and there are two older guys out there.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  And they, they were having a hard time being on time.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:50Speaker 05

  But eventually they were like, well, screw the rest of you. And you'd look down the line. Everybody's all covered up.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 14:56Speaker 05

  And you'd look down the line and they'd just be up like this.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  They'd already be set.

• 14:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So he, he was definitely the one that in our family that kept, set the tone for the hunting. And yeah, he's done. I mean, every hunt in Africa, he's done moose up in Alaska. He's done bear. He's done, I mean, he's caribou. You name it. That's like his, that's his thing.

• 15:19Steven Rinella?

  I like that you uh began your book. It's bold.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:24Steven Rinella?

  You begin your book with a hunting story.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Right. I was curious how that was going to be taken.

• 15:27Steven Rinella?

  Well, yeah, because you could do it. And a lot of guys would be like, um, they'd be like, wow, I don't want to do that because it might turn people on.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 15:33Steven Rinella?

  Which, you know, whatever. But so I always like to applaud people who are just like, hanging out there. I had a guy, I still don't want to say, well, I guess I could say his name now.

• 15:44Steven Rinella?

  I had a guy one time call me. He was married to a very famous singer.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 15:49Speaker 05

  What genre?

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Did he make videos on about Tinder exchanges?

• 15:53Steven Rinella?

  He called, he, he's trying to get ahold of me one time. Like passes a message you want to talk. And it's just like to tell me. And he tells me flat out, he's a closeted hunter. And he says he has a game room that you wouldn't know was in his house.

• 16:07Steven Rinella?

  Unless he took you to it.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 16:08Steven Rinella?

  Cause he can't let anybody know because the business he's in and the business his wife's in.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 16:13Steven Rinella?

  Isn't that wild?

• 16:14Speaker 00

  I mean, I can understand it. But yeah, that's the, I, I mean, I can, I can relate to that to a little bit, but

• 16:20Steven Rinella?

  I don't want to betray his trust.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I understand.

• 16:22Steven Rinella?

  With one phone call. It's like he had to tell somebody.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Just need, I need to tell somebody.

• 16:26Steven Rinella?

  I was like, I kept thinking there was going to be like a thing in the end, like

• 16:28Speaker 00

  An invitation.

• 16:29Steven Rinella?

  There's no point. Do you want to be a pop singer? I don't know.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  We gotta put out a hotline, confessions system so people feel better.

• 16:35Steven Rinella?

  That would actually be a very good idea. I like to pull a trigger now and then. I mean, I understand, buddy.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  Is that satisfying for you, do you think?

• 16:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Yeah, I was puzzled though. I thought there, I was just waiting for, I thought there's more to the story, but it won't be in it. I gotta tell, um, I got to tell two quick stories I think are pretty funny. You'll have to bear with because they're about a guy you don't know, but everybody else knows him. That's fine. You know Doug Dern, I just came, we, every year I take my kids, since my little boy was four, my 14 year old was four, the first time he went there. That was awesome. To hunt turkeys at Doug's place. Now we go during the kitty season, the two day long kid season. Oh, cool. So we go every year. We're just at Doug's place and um Doug, anybody's hung out with him like is like uh is adamant that people like he backs in. His car. Oh, he's one of those. He doesn't call it backing in, pointing out.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, when I didn't on his property, he like called me out for it. That was the first time I discovered his thing.

• 17:31Steven Rinella?

  You know what it comes from? So his, his grandpa, no, his dad got attacked by his own chainsaw one time.

• 17:38Steven Rinella?

  And had to drive himself to like hit himself in the brisket with a chainsaw. Good. Oh. And drove himself to a hospital. So Doug's telling, he's telling my kids this story. And even, and even though Doug's dad is manages to get in his car and drive all the way to the hospital, Doug explains to my kids, if he hadn't backed in, he'd be dead.

• 18:08Steven Rinella?

  Wouldn't have worked. I was like, Doug. And he's dead serious? Then he like got in the car and made it to the hospital, but backing out would have been the end of it. That would have been.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Seal.

• 18:17Steven Rinella?

  I'm sure that was the observation of the physician that treated him. Yeah. I was like. Thank God. It's fine to tell my kids to back in, but you don't need to like. Revisionist. Yeah.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  Trying to make an imprint there.

• 18:32Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he had to back then he'd be dead. I associate that with volunteer firemen. All the volunteer firemen, I know they back in because if they get a fire call, they want to be out of there as quick as possible.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. So somebody who, um, one of my best friends, he's now, um. The COO of the my law firm and he always backs in that comes from law enforcement. He's been a law enforcement his whole life. So that's just ingrained to him to.

• 18:54Steven Rinella?

  I try to do it. I try to do it. I get lazy now. But you know, the thing about it, either way, you gotta back out at some point.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  I, I, it's like you just, you either do it at the beginning or you do it at the end. Yeah.

• 19:03Steven Rinella?

  I try to like do that. The other point, this is the end of my, my things about Doug, but Doug, my buddy Doug's got a buddy Kiefer. And they're talking about another guy getting caught up by his own chainsaw.

• 19:14Speaker 05

  Oh, gosh.

• 19:15Steven Rinella?

  And this guy calls Doug, a lot of chain, a lot of incidents.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  I'm seeing a theme. Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 05

  Woodlot management country.

• 19:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's like everything is, yeah, everything is like cutting this, cutting that. Um, another guy gets hurt by his chainsaw. And he calls like Doug finds out, but Doug's not around. And Doug's like, well, Kiefer's all around, always around. So he calls Kiefer to notify about the chainsaw injury and Kiefer had a great quote. He says, I'm always around, but I'm never quite there.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  That's good. That's good. That needs to be on like a magnet or a bumper sticker.

• 19:49Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's a great.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  That's a great line. Always around, but not always there.

• 19:53Steven Rinella?

  Okay. So your book.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:55Steven Rinella?

  First book, The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 19:59Steven Rinella?

  Um, I got, I got a, uh, this is a, I haven't read it.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  That's fine.

• 20:04Steven Rinella?

  I read the beginning. I always like to tell people, cause I feel like a lot of times people don't come out, come clean.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I've been on lots of podcasts and you know, good and well, they've never, they haven't even cracked that open. It's fine. Not a problem.

• 20:16Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  Nah.

• 20:17Steven Rinella?

  Um, how'd you like, so you, you, uh, try to take all you learned?

• 20:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:25Steven Rinella?

  And put it in there.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Some of it. Yeah. It was.

• 20:27Steven Rinella?

  Walking through the book.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. The, um.

• 20:30Speaker 05

  Well, it kinda has to be all you learned because I'm keep looking at that title and trying to make a sequel out of it and it's hard.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right. Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 05

  It's definitive.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  The conversation after that one.

• 20:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Still arguing?

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 20:47Steven Rinella?

  Question mark.

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, the conversation after the next one. Um, yeah, so, um, I'm a social media that where when I was posting these videos, people would leave a comment, say, you need to write a book, please write a book, please write a book.

• 21:00Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  And I thought, well, I guess I'll write a book. I mean, I was Googling, how do you write a book? And then Tess came along. I mean, that's as simple as that.

• 21:07Steven Rinella?

  What does it say when you write that in?

• 21:08Speaker 00

  It talks about self-publishing, really. And, uh, I thought I was gonna self-publish it. And, and then Tess came along and saved me and Mark came and saved me. Um, and so I, the idea was, I need to, I wanted to provide the people that follow me, my framework with how I, how to communicate, how I do it, my thoughts on it. So that if they wanna go and not need me, there you go. You don't have to watch my content anymore. You got the, you got the book. But it's not just a summary of every, every one of my hit viral videos or every one of that. It's not just a regurgitation. So, um, it lays out three different rules. Talks about how to say things with control, say things with confidence and say it to connect.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  And the idea is that people weren't watching my stuff to handle the last conversation. They were watching that, the change how they were gonna handle the next conversation. And that's how this whole thing kind of came about, how to help people argue less and talk more.

• 22:05Steven Rinella?

  Tell, tell me about the three things.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:08Steven Rinella?

  The, the three, like, like, give me a summation of what you mean by the, the, whatever the hell you just laid out.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, yeah, whatever that is.

• 22:15Steven Rinella?

  I can't remember now.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's easy to forget. The, uh, uh, rule one, say it with control is all about, rather than trying to control the other person, things that you can do with, within your own body to help control yourself. You know, just, uh, kind of control, regulate your own emotions before you get into it. Not excite the moment, make it worse. Uh, saying things with confidence is learning about how to find your assertive voice. You have people that might over-apologize or find ways to be really hesitant with their words. This is more about how to lean into it and be more assertive when you communicate. Three is how to say things to connect, which is all about how to handle difficult conversations. How do you deliver bad news? How do you tell someone no? And you're not really sure how to deal with that. How do you deal with these conversations that you're dreading, you know,

• 22:59Speaker 00

  while you're brushing your teeth and driving there and you know you gotta have it, but you don't know how? And so this gives a, a good framework for all of that. I like to say that some people might teach you how to play an instrument. I teach you the- I give you the sheet music. I tell you what chords to play. That's kind of how I relate.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Is this, are those rules, things that all trial lawyers learn? Or is this stuff you learned along the way?

• 23:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, great question. No, this is, law school didn't teach you squat about reading people. Only teaches you how to read the law, how to apply case law to certain facts and spot issues. Uh, now trial, trial's courtroom certainly can give you a lot of training in communication. How do you handle conflict? Because everything you do, you're being watched. You, you'll probably like this. So a lot of your really good attorneys, uh, the ones that, let's just say make a lot of money, they do really well. They won't wear their Rolex and drive their Mercedes to the courtroom. They have, they have another, no, they, no, the good ones wear, they have a different truck. They have like an old beat up eighty-seven Chevy.

• 24:05Steven Rinella?

  I'd have my Ma drop me off.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a, they, they wear like their secondhand suit. They, they,

• 24:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Because as soon as you pull into the, the parking lot, jurors, prospective jurors, they're all watching you the whole, the whole way. So if you come in and you have like a whole team of five paralegals, it just means.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  The Johnny Cochran approach.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. So you have people that, um,

• 24:28Steven Rinella?

  No kidding?

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Cause as soon as you walk in, they're looking at everything. Cause if you, if you, exactly. So if you come in with a whole bunch of people, they're going to assume you have a whole bunch of money. That means your client has put a whole lot of money, which means they're trying to hide something because they're afraid of this case. So, um, it's, it's very, very tactical as soon as you, and it starts in the parking lot. It, it really does. But so, any, anytime you go into the courtroom, you're being watched. You have your 12 jurors and maybe six if you're in a county court. You got the judge, the bailiff, the court reporter, opposing counsel, paralegals, people that are back in the audience, everything you do is watched.

• 25:03Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and years of use out of

• 25:47Steven Rinella?

  a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. I used to think that like your mattress was like your shoe size. I mean, there's nothing you're going to do to change it. But man, was I wrong. That was before I ever like had an actual good new mattress. And once I had one, I couldn't believe I'd spent my whole life sleeping on dished out junky old mattresses. Well, Helix, check this out. They got over 20 mattress models, so you can find the perfect model for you. Nothing to be embarrassed about getting yourself a new mattress. Helix has cooling upgrades too, so you can get the best rest even on hot nights. Good night's rest sets you up for a great day. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the U.S. And you can rest easy

• 26:32Steven Rinella?

  with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix Guarantee offers a risk-free, customer-first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Helix is the most awarded mattress brand, tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Here's what you do. Go to helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off site-wide. That's helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off site-wide. helixsleep.com/meateater. This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. The holiday season is damn near upon us. In my house, you know,

• 27:12Steven Rinella?

  We've been talking about Thanksgiving pretty soon. We're going to start talking about Christmas and it could bring on a lot of stress. Also, holidays could bring on a lot of family issues. And sometimes when it comes to family issues, it might be smart for you to go and find someone you can talk to about it and to help make sense out of it all. Well, insurance options may now be available nationwide with BetterHelp. With insurance, many members pay $15 or less. Some pay nothing. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 10-plus years of experience and industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time.

• 27:56Steven Rinella?

  If you aren't happy with your match, go ahead and switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/meateater. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash meat eater.

• 28:32Steven Rinella?

  Can I, uh, nothing to do with That don't matter. Communicating, but I want to ask. I'm just glad to be here. We'll talk about whatever. Well, I want to, I want to get your quick feedback from something that happened when I was 18 years old. Okay. If this is normal or not. I tell the story all the time. I never asked someone who would know. Okay. I had jury duty.

• 28:49Steven Rinella?

  And it's a, it's a crack cocaine trial. Criminal trial. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, and they're, they're pushing for a felony or like a, um, sorry, a life sentence for a crack dealer. We go through this whole trial and, uh, it's like wiretaps and translators, you know? And you make it on the jury? I'm on the jury. Yeah, I sat through the whole thing, man. It was fascinating. I loved it. So. What they had to prove is that he'd sold a certain threshold of crack.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 29:23Steven Rinella?

  And they had bought. The undercover guys had bought like 90% of what they needed.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 29:29Steven Rinella?

  Just so all they needed to do was through money and all that other like there has to have been another whatever.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 29:36Steven Rinella?

  Pound. I don't know what the hell it was.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:38Steven Rinella?

  Remember, right? So the whole logic was like, here's all the what we bought. And if he sold. 10% more through his career, he would have trafficked X quantity of crack.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:52Steven Rinella?

  And we come back very quickly with a guilty verdict.

• 29:54Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 29:56Steven Rinella?

  The judge was this dude named Mike Cobza. I'll always remember that.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 30:00Steven Rinella?

  He says, we do the whole thing. They take the guy away. And he says, I'd like you to hang tight a minute to the jury.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 30:06Steven Rinella?

  All right. And he says, if any of you has any feeling of remorse about what you just did, I want to tell you a couple of things about that guy. And tells us all the non admissible evidence.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:19Steven Rinella?

  All the double jeopardy shit.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:21Steven Rinella?

  Is that normal?

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Very normal.

• 30:22Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's normal.

• 30:24Steven Rinella?

  Dude, it's fascinating.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  It's normal. And so.

• 30:26Steven Rinella?

  He's like, oh, now I'm gonna tell you, they did buy more than they needed, but it got.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:31Steven Rinella?

  And he had this and had that.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:33Steven Rinella?

  And he's like, whatever, shot his girlfriend.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, any, any of it. Yeah, they, it's very, very common. And so in it's criminal trial and civil trial, we, we get to ask questions of the jurors. So after the trial is over, if we want, we can. Ask the panel. So we can go and ask them, how'd you like to trial? What, what evidence did you find? We know how you ruled. You know, what, what?

• 30:56Steven Rinella?

  Like an exit interview.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. And they, and they're free to answer or not. Uh, but often you have. Uh, the jurors will come to you, uh, after the trial, after you're done. Whatever they they've they've ruled, judgment on it, and then you can get to ask them, what what piece of evidence did you like, would you not like, would you find most compelling? And so you'll have some that come up and hug, you know, your client, just, I just want, I'm so sorry for all you've been through. There's people who hate the other side. I mean, or they might hate you. I mean, you just never, you never know. But yeah, you can definitely talk to them.

• 31:29Steven Rinella?

  So it helps you hone your craft, too.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  Big time, because you think that the one piece of evidence that you thought was so crucial, like, no, I gotta get this in. They didn't care a lick about. They it didn't even enter their system. They were focused on this, and you had no idea.

• 31:43Steven Rinella?

  You're wa- they're watching your watch.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, every little thing, because, like, for example, if, let's say, I I need to, other side objects to some evidence, and it's what they would call a quick, maybe objection battle, in front of the jury, which you typically don't want to do. But when they say, can we approach the bench?

• 32:01Steven Rinella?

  Say that again, I understand.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, so let's say I need to object to a piece of evidence that's coming in. Say, Your Honor, objection, Your Honor, whatever it is, relevance, hearsay, you name it. And you typically will say, can we approach? Meaning, we want to go to the bench and have this discover, this discussion, because we don't want the jury to hear it.

• 32:18Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  Jurors don't like that, because it feels like, how come you get, y'all get to talk, and we don't get to hear it? Like, they don't, like, oh, what are y'all talking about? And they don't, they don't like that. So when you have an attorney who's objecting a lot, it's going, what are you, what are you hiding? What are you not wanting me to hear? They'll, they'll count that against them. Or-

• 32:35Steven Rinella?

  Oh, like, even though the judge says, hey, never mind this.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Exactly. Even though the judge says specifically, they're gonna object to that, don't pay attention to it, they absolutely pay attention to it. And then you watch how the people leave.

• 32:45Steven Rinella?

  It's like when you say to your kids, don't listen to what me and mom are gonna say right now.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  Exactly. That's exactly right. And so when you leave, when the judge makes his ruling, now, it could be, we could have out in front, I don't have to approach the bench, we could just talk. But as soon as we're coming back, if you look defeated, or you look mad, or you look upset, let's say I objected to something, and I lost, the other side's gonna go- Okay, whatever is about to be said is gonna hurt their case. Like, they pick on upon it even more. So, you have to be really strategic about if it's a fact that hurts you. Often, it's better to just let it in. Don't, don't try and fight it because they'll most likely won't even pay attention. After lunch, somebody just had Mexican food, they have Tex Mex on there, you know. Somebody's nodding, somebody's writing notes, the other person's looking off, like you never know. Like a teacher, you typically don't want teachers on your jury.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  Like when we're picking jurors, because they'll, they hold class. They'll, they'll say, well, no, if you watch the X, Y, and Z, and then they want, they corral everybody in the, in the room. And so, they, they start to teach. Uh, and, uh, if, if a teacher is for you, that's the best thing. If a teacher's against you, you're cooked. You're absolutely cooked. Yeah, it's funny how that, that works.

• 33:56Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:56Steven Rinella?

  I feel like asking you for hot tips on how to get out of jury duty for people. But that's kinda anti-American.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is anti-American. I mean, pretty much, it's, it's, the percentage of even getting to, to jury duty is very small. I mean, actually getting picked, actually getting picked. I, I mean, I think anybody should be part of that experience. And that's just, it's a system unlike any other.

• 34:18Speaker 04

  I want nothing more than to serve on a jury.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 04

  I've never got, I got, I got a summons, and then I realized that I live, because we live outside of city limits. I wasn't eligible to be in that, in that, uh, trial, and I was just defeated.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Hmm. Oh, that's rough.

• 34:35Speaker 05

  Would Randall's loving to be on a jury disqualify him from being on a jury?

• 34:40Speaker 00

  No.

• 34:40Speaker 04

  I wonder about that, too.

• 34:41Steven Rinella?

  If he said, oh, no, I'm just excited to be here, I just wanna be on a jury.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, they like that, they like that.

• 34:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have, I have a friend who's been on two incredible juries.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  Really good stuff.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I'll tell you how to get out of it, if you really wanna, uh, know, and there's nothing wrong with this. It's whenever the, so they'll call it, in some parts of Texas, they say voie de your, or, or, parts of the US, they say voie de your.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  They use French in Texas?

• 35:05Speaker 00

  Uh, no, in Texas, we say voire d'air.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  Call it Vordar. And so what you do is you take all the jurors, everybody's got their pink slips or whatever, they come in and it's just like a big cattle call, they're all sitting down. And so the attorneys, lawyers, we come up and start asking questions, trying to narrow down and we pick who we want on the jury. But it's not, you can't just say like dodgeball, well, I want to pick Steve, I want to pick whoever. It's not that, it's by process of elimination. So you have to say who you don't want and whoever is left is who's going to be on the jury. I have a number of strikes, the other person has a, other attorney has a number of strikes. And I can just strike somebody because I don't like anything about them. I can just say, I got a funny feeling about this person and I strike. It can't

• 35:49Speaker 00

  be a discriminatory reason. But whoever's left is how they get on. So if you want to get off the jury, be very opinionated at their questions. So if they're going to ask a question of, you know, how do you feel about lawsuits? And if you just answer, you know, I hate lawsuits, I hate attorneys, I hate everything, this whole thing, you will not get picked.

• 36:09Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's what I figured you could just play that game.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Or, or, or you just-

• 36:12Steven Rinella?

  I don't even care if someone's guilty or not. If they've been accused of a crime, hang them.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm telling you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or on the civil side, meaning the non-criminal side, if it's, you know, there's way too many lawsuits in the world, or, you know, I think everybody should just, I don't, I hate big companies, you're going to get off the jury because somebody's going to say you're too opinionated already. You're not showing that you're fair and impartial. Like, in this kind of relates to my world, I had, this is probably a year and a half back, I'm taking Vordar, and I, I'm asking my questions as a motor vehicle case. And I go sit down, the defense attorney stands up and he has his, you know, his readers and he's, he's asking his questions and he, this is the

• 36:58Speaker 00

  first time I've ever heard anybody ask this. He says, anybody here follow Mr. Fisher's, is, what, social media? Anybody follow his social media? And probably about 60% of the hands.

• 39:23Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 39:24Steven Rinella?

  And he wrote in because he said, I asked, do any of you listen to the Meat Eater Podcast?

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a good way to ask.

• 39:30Steven Rinella?

  But he never gave me any of the details. Like, did he want him in or out?

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Uh, he probab- it depends, depends. Uh, so historically, um, plaintiffs benefit, I mean, somebody who has the complaint, somebody who's been hurt, somebody who's suing somebody else. This is on the civil side. It could be on the criminal side, too. Uh, those that are more right-leaning are more likely to say, yes, they're guilty. They're more likely to turn down somebody who's on a civil lawsuit. So they're gonna, they're gonna lean in favor of the business, not the person who's hurt.

• 40:04Steven Rinella?

  Got it.

• 40:04Speaker 00

  So the plaintiffs are people who typically lean or benefit from somebody who's more, let's say, liberal-leaning. Um, and then you have your blue counties, your red counties. I mean, it's very much controlled. And it's like the state of Texas, very red now. And so that leans on what kind of jurors you're gonna get. So most likely, let's say if most hunters, let's, let's just put a generalized statement, most hunters lean a certain way, then that's what he's hoping for of that kind of mindset. Uh, there's always exceptions, but that's, that's kind of how they roll.

• 40:37Steven Rinella?

  What my guess wound up being, I should have written him back. My guess was that it was a, uh, maybe a poaching case?

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:45Steven Rinella?

  And if he wanted to trivialize the offense, like, it's just an elk, who cares?

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, right.

• 40:50Steven Rinella?

  You'd want to get all the hunters out of there.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure.

• 40:53Steven Rinella?

  You know, then to then paint a picture like this, he shot an elk on his own place, who gives a shit?

• 40:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, yeah, absolutely.

• 40:59Steven Rinella?

  Or whatever.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  If it's a poaching case, uh, did he say where, where he lived?

• 41:03Steven Rinella?

  Man, we'd have to go find it.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  No, that's fine. Uh, but yeah.

• 41:05Steven Rinella?

  I, I, I only remember as much as I'm telling you.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I mean, that's, but that just goes to show you, it, it's case by case. Like, there's some people that I would, depending on the, the facts, I definitely want in my jury. There's some that I would not want a million miles from the deliberation room. And so you have people that, um, yeah, if they're a hunter, they're gonna take conservation a lot more seriously and, yeah.

• 41:27Speaker 05

  I had a bench warrant for my arrest. Uh, I would, I'd like to say one time.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  His openings are the best.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  Uh, I've, I've had a couple, um, just out of pure negligence, not out of, you know, real solid criminal activity.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Like from not checking your mail.

• 41:45Speaker 05

  From not checking my mail. Yeah. Yeah. And I was notified that I had a bench warrant. I was guiding at the time, so I've spent a lot of time in the woods, not in cell reception and, and definitely not getting mail.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 41:58Speaker 05

  And, um, it was for not paying a parking ticket for like a very long time, I think, or a speeding ticket or something. And, and, uh, so I go into the courtroom, submit my, I have my letter finally.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 05

  Very overdue letter, submit it. They're like, yeah, great. The, you know, stand in line over here. The judge will see you loud in, in Missoula. And, um, I really dressed basically like I am right now. I'm like, oh my God, this is not, not gonna go well. And, um, and so they finally get through, get, get up to me and it's my turn and, and I'm like, yep, you know, guilty for the, the ticket. Uh, you know, can I explain what happened? And the judge is like, sure. I said, yeah, I, you know, I spend a lot of time in the woods. And I don't have access to mail or, you know, and I'm, but I'm in town now. And.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Rapping up loose ends.

• 42:58Speaker 05

  Yeah. And the judge just like basically said some version of, yeah, I believe you.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 05

  But, and it was purely based off of appearance, right?

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Right, right, right. Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 05

  And so now having this conversation, I am, I'm like, I'm wondering if I would have, if anything would have changed.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  If you'd worn your Rolex?

• 43:18Speaker 05

  Yeah. If I would have gone and found a suit or, you know, borrowed my buddy's ties and stuff like that.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  No, probably not. Like I, I find that most of your courthouses, especially the smaller ones, they're just good, small town people. And they, if you just treat them with kindness, like if you're just nice, you're not rude, you know, I can't believe I just got this. I mean, the, the person who has all the power is really your county clerk. The, those ladies behind the desk who's same for like your court coordinator. Those are the people who have the real.

• 43:47Speaker 05

  Huh.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  Power in those courthouses. Oh yeah. Those are the ones that sway the judges. Because when you're, when you're in trial. The, the judge, the court reporter, the bailiff, they all go back to the, the chamber. You know what they do? They talk trash on your entire trial. I mean, they're, they're, they're kind of laying bets on who's gonna win, what evidence is gonna-

• 44:03Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 44:04Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. They talk, they gossip about everything. Yeah. And so they already kind of know in their mind, oh, no, that evidence is gonna work, or that doesn't, not gonna go well, or- Who's, who's winning and who's not winning. So that, I mean, it's like they're, it's like they're, uh, they're junk TV, man.

• 44:16Steven Rinella?

  Uh huh.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, the whole thing. But no, I think how you, you set it up, I, I wouldn't have changed that because if you're trying, well, there is a difference between people who, let's say if you wore a real nice suit and you dressed all up and then you acted like a jerk, that is never gonna-

• 44:33Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're not gonna go well. But I mean, you definitely fit the look, so.

• 44:37Steven Rinella?

  I was at the fish, I was at the fishing game office. Yeah, I have no reason to not believe this, really. I went to the fishing game office with a coworker.

• 44:48Steven Rinella?

  Right down the road. Uh huh. Who gets arrested while we're in there because of a bench warrant. Amazing.

• 44:55Speaker 06

  I've heard his version of this story before.

• 44:57Steven Rinella?

  Come up.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Did you stick around to see how it turned out, or you just-

• 45:01Steven Rinella?

  No. Steve started reading stuff on the wall. Cuffed and stuffed. You're kidding me? I'm like, yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  You took care of what you had to take care of, though?

• 45:09Speaker 00

  That's awesome. It'd have been hilarious if he was like reading stuff on the wall and he's like, John, John, where'd you go?

• 45:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, cause like, you go down and you present your name and they, whatever.

• 45:21Steven Rinella?

  Unreal. Cuffed and stuffed.

• 45:23Speaker 06

  Have you worked any outdoor crimes before?

• 45:26Speaker 00

  No, no out, no outdoor crimes. So all of my stuff is civil. I have a lot of friends that, uh, do criminal law. You, you're either on the state side prosecuting, or you're defending them. I mean, we have, uh, our game wardens are pretty cool. Everybody's really chill down where I'm at. So I, I live in southeast Texas, a little bit north of a town called Beaumont.

• 45:47Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  Uh, so it's, um, called Sillsby is the, is the name of where I live and, uh, just deep east Texas.

• 45:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's like, you guys have Boudin down there.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, we got Boudin. Yeah.

• 45:59Steven Rinella?

  Huh.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely, definitely. So it's, uh, it's, I, what I love so much about the area is you have your lakes, you have your rivers, you, you have the Gulf right there. I'm, I'm about 45 minutes-

• 46:11Steven Rinella?

  Oh, which, which Gulf? Which Gulf is that?

• 46:13Speaker 00

  I call the Gulf of Mexico.

• 46:17Steven Rinella?

  That's what everybody wants to correct you nowadays. Like it's Gulf of Mexico for me, man. Dude, we were doing VO the other day. Yeah, we had like, we're doing VO for a mediator episode. Yeah. Which occurred there. Uh. You know, and it was so hard to like navigate it. I'm like, I don't know, man, like. What do you call it? Yeah. So I said, uh, I settled on the Gulf of, uh, you know. Yeah.

• 46:41Steven Rinella?

  That's the best way you could probably do it. This is probably the best way you could do it. Yeah, so, uh, yeah, we're in the. It's so, it's like so silly. It is. I think they'd like change names of things. But at the same time, it's like, it's also, it's so silly, but it's also like, um, I don't want to get into it. It's like a little war. It's a little language. It's like a little, hey, I'll show you what it's like. Exactly. To have to choose your words real careful all the time. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  So how do we handle that conflict?

• 47:13Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  Let's get into our.

• 47:15Steven Rinella?

  Oh yeah, now we gotta get into the meat. Okay, who's got this first one about, uh, we're gonna put, we're gonna put this to the test now. Oh, what do y'all have? Yeah, everybody's got.

• 47:22Speaker 05

  We got a surprise.

• 47:23Steven Rinella?

  No, no, no, just scenarios. Okay. That you can help us walk through.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Well, the first one is, uh, how to properly execute the insult compliment sandwich.

• 47:34Steven Rinella?

  But I want to get into the specifics. I want to do that. I want to go to specifics first, just to get the flavor. Who's got this one about, this starts coworkers and girlfriends?

• 47:41Speaker 05

  I don't know who wrote that one, but it's sure good.

• 47:44Steven Rinella?

  Where'd it come from?

• 47:45Speaker 03

  Who wrote that one?

• 47:46Speaker 05

  Man, I wish we could find out.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  There's.

• 47:48Speaker 05

  Co-workers and girlfriends. Always casually ask about.

• 47:52Steven Rinella?

  You're just gonna read it for us?

• 47:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:54Steven Rinella?

  Okay, wherever it came from. He's admitting it was him.

• 47:56Speaker 05

  I don't know, it's an open document. Everybody's got access to it.

• 47:58Steven Rinella?

  Okay, so he's gonna hit you, he's gonna, you follow. I guess we'll never know. And you're gonna help us think through, you're gonna help walk through how to handle difficult situations. I love it.

• 48:07Speaker 05

  And at the end of the day, whoever wrote it is not, not really the point.

• 48:11Steven Rinella?

  Right, right. They still love their girlfriend. Yeah, these are, these are universal problems. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 48:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, we, you know, people write in and message and stuff all the time, so we get a lot of info.

• 48:20Steven Rinella?

  Sometimes they have a mustache. Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 05

  Co-workers and girlfriends always casually ask about hunting spot locations. Unfortunately, they cannot be trusted, not because they are stealing spots, but because they don't understand that this information can never be brought up in a casual conversation, ever.

• 48:39Speaker 05

  The reasoning behind my non-answers to these questions have already been explained, but they continue to ask anyway. So now I just lie, which I hate. How do you navigate that scenario?

• 48:53Speaker 00

  So for whoever wrote this in, um, now I would ask them this kind of clarifying question, and maybe you have an idea of what they might say. Is, is this a conversation that's happening in front of other people? Or is this just one-on-one with whoever this girlfriend or spouse might be?

• 49:12Speaker 05

  And coworkers, let's not forget the coworkers part. It can be both. It can be both.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  So you have something, okay, this is super specific. So let's say, um, let's say there's a piece of information that you're telling someone, I can't tell you that, and they're having to continually repeat that kind of thing. Uh, do you feel that they're just breaking that trust? Are they, is it intentional from this other person? Or is it just, they're just not thinking about it?

• 49:38Speaker 05

  They're just not thinking about it. It's not internalized on the same level as, as it's typically like a, a, a younger hunter versus a, a more seasoned hunter. Because right, the, the, the value of that information only increases over time.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Okay, so give me a little insight here. When you, um,

• 49:58Steven Rinella?

  Where are you?

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Certain spots are, yeah. Certain spots are they, this is news to me, like you just don't, if you're like, hey, this is a great area, we're not gonna go, we're not gonna tell people that we're hunting.

• 50:07Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like, yeah, like, uh, this is a, this is a public land problem.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  Ah, okay.

• 50:12Steven Rinella?

  Or, or fish, or a fishing problem.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  You got a circle of trust who you might share it with, but then like, there's people that you're not gonna.

• 50:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, so a guy like Cal, let's say a guy like Cal.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, just as an example.

• 50:25Steven Rinella?

  A guy like Cal has a girlfriend says, where are you?

• 50:29Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 50:30Steven Rinella?

  And he goes, I'm up on, uh, Nunnia Business Creek.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:34Steven Rinella?

  Okay. Uh, what his problem now is someone's gonna go like, hey, what's Cal doing? I don't know. He caught, he sent me a picture. He caught all these fish.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  And where is he?

• 50:44Steven Rinella?

  Where is he? Like he said, uh, he's on Nanny Business Creek there.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 50:49Steven Rinella?

  Now, she didn't know that she just was blowing it up.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  There we go.

• 50:53Steven Rinella?

  But he just knows it's gonna slip.

• 50:55Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm with you.

• 50:55Steven Rinella?

  And so if he goes, I can't tell you.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Nothing. I've said, I guess, what's the problem with that? Okay. So this, this would be my thought. This would be my thought on that is, one, of course, it's good to know that it's not intentional from this other person. Two, they're, they're only calling because they care. They're probably calling to create conversation is my guess, uh, that they're just generally wanting to know where you are. I think if you, uh, come at it from, I'm safe over in the most general area that you can be without telling them where exactly you are is probably your best bet because that sounds like the reason they're asking is not really to know the information that could slip of getting out. This is where we're having this wonderful honey hole. It's that she's just asking because she probably just is making conversation, wants to know you're safe.

• 51:44Steven Rinella?

  But

• 51:44Speaker 05

  It doesn't solve this problem.

• 51:46Steven Rinella?

  But the coworkers.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  You're tense.

• 51:47Steven Rinella?

  The coworkers.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Are not. The coworkers of, okay, are, are mining.

• 51:53Steven Rinella?

  Who are coworkers here?

• 51:53Speaker 00

  They're mining for information.

• 51:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  Who are coworkers here in this scenario? Are these people you're working with or it's people she's working with?

• 52:00Steven Rinella?

  Uh, let's say it's me. I'm like, hey, where'd you get that big old buck?

• 52:03Speaker 00

  And you couldn't, and he can't tell you.

• 52:05Speaker 05

  Right. Steve would be like, boy, it looks like Cal had a pretty good weekend.

• 52:09Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Where was that? Yeah. Where, where, where was he?

• 52:12Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. So then, um,

• 52:16Speaker 05

  Cause there's this totally other scenario, like, uh, fishing scenario that we have in common. Um, Steve is gracious enough to lend out his boat from time to time.

• 52:27Speaker 05

  We're fishing a lot of the same spots. And in that scenario, I'm like, hey, this is what happened?

• 52:35Speaker 00

  This is where I was and this is what I was using.

• 52:37Steven Rinella?

  Cause it was my damn boat. Yeah, if I said, if I said, where did you take my boat?

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:43Steven Rinella?

  That'd be weird. If you said, I can't tell.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  He's gonna throw like a tracker in it, you know?

• 52:52Steven Rinella?

  Let's, let's hit you with a different one.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  No, no, but what I would end it with is, uh, one, it's, it's lighthearted, right? So I would come up with some kind of phrase that's really more of a humorous joke for you. Whether it's like, oh, I just went down to mystery city or whatever it was. Um, if you're making it a, a joke, that way it's not her taking it. Like it's serious. So that's kind of like a, a code. When I tell you it's here, it's because I'm telling you because I can't let anybody know. It's not that I don't want you to know. I just can't, I can't say everything.

• 53:24Steven Rinella?

  We've built that joke with our kids where I'll joke with my kids, like tell them it's where Nunya Creek flows into Business River.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of the times humor, just adding in a little bit of a, a joke. Like if I need to, you know, like a, a grandparent, so this is the first time I go into my grandparents' house. And I remember asking my grandmother, you know, my meemaw, I said, where's Papa? And she said, ah, he's in his office. And then he was in the bathroom. Uh, and so it was just a way of like when company was around, not letting them know where, where he was. And so, or somebody says, where'd you get that? You go, I just fell off the back of a truck is what we would typically say if I don't want to express in some way. So find some kind of metaphor that is also code.

• 54:03Speaker 05

  This also implies that you, I see you have a wedding ring, right?

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  That your brand of humor must not wear off over time.

• 54:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:11Speaker 05

  Cause it does in my house.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  That's funny. That's funny.

• 54:17Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for some. Especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean and they'll get years and years

• 55:00Steven Rinella?

  of use out of a set. Visit weatherTech.com for your holiday shopping today. I used to think that like your mattress was like your shoe size. I mean, there's nothing you're going to do to change it, but man, was I wrong. That was before I ever like had an actual good new mattress. And once I had one, I couldn't believe I'd spent my whole life sleeping on dished out junky old mattresses. Well, Helix, check this out. They got over 20 mattress models, so you can find the perfect model for you. Nothing to be embarrassed about getting yourself a new mattress. Helix has cooling upgrades too, so you can get the best rest even on hot nights. Good night's rest sets you up for a great day. Helix delivers

• 55:40Steven Rinella?

  your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the U.S. And you can rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix Guarantee offers a risk-free, customer-first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Helix is the most awarded mattress brand, tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Here's what you do. Go to helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off site-wide. That's helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off site-wide. helixsleep.com/meateater. Go and ask any serious whitetail hunter what the best time of the year is to be out

• 56:24Steven Rinella?

  in a tree. And it's not a holiday, okay? The best time is not already on your calendar. It's the rut. It's the two or three week window that serious deer hunters plan everything else around. And OnX Hunt's rut calendar does this for you and helps take the guesswork out of your planning. It tracks the different phases of the rut as they move through your area. So you know when to book the time off, when to have the whole camp locked in and ready, or conversely, when it's still too early to burn out your best spots. You only get so many rut hunts in your life, so use the rut calendar within OnX Hunt to make the most of the whitetail rut this fall.

• 57:09Steven Rinella?

  Okay, here's one. All right.

• 57:12Steven Rinella?

  You have a buddy. Okay. You're a duck hunter, I'll put it so. Yeah. You have a buddy who um is learning to call, learning to duck call. Hmm. They're terrible. You feel that this calling they're doing and they they insist on calling a lot. Yeah. And it's just, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to you. Hmm. Um, they're trying to learn. Yeah. But it's not working right now. Right. How do you, how do you uh, how do you?

• 57:41Speaker 00

  How do you approach that?

• 57:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Uh, so I would. I I would uh, it's funny because I've probably been that other kid.

• 57:48Steven Rinella?

  Sure.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  Learning how to start doing duck calls. Um. I would begin with this phrase, I'm telling you this because. Like a lot of time we're not sure.

• 57:57Steven Rinella?

  Oh, you use that?

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because a lot of time, you don't know.

• 58:01Steven Rinella?

  My hackles are up already.

• 58:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. I'm telling you it's because, I'm telling you it's because I love you, I'm telling you it's because you're my best friend, I'm telling you because. Um, I I I know you're really excited about this game call, like whatever it is, whatever it is. A lot of times people just don't know why you're telling them things. You start talking and then you.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  You say like, I'm telling you this because we're here to kill ducks and if you keep calling, we're not gonna kill.

• 58:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Like, that's a, you know what I mean?

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it it even if it's a we thing, I'm I'm telling you this because we're here to kill the most amount of ducks we can. What you're doing. It's probably not the best strategy right now.

• 58:36Steven Rinella?

  Oh, just come flat out.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:38Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, when you're, when you're super indirect, I I I feel it's also like, if it's a hunting buddy. This is the person who. We we speak very direct. I mean, if it's me and another guy, it's. You're a direct conversation is usually not that much of a struggle for two dudes who. I've just become really close because when you have a hunting buddy, I mean, you can do just about, you talk about everything. When you're in the blind or in the stand, so conversation happens, so it's, I I wouldn't skirt around it at all, but when you say, I'm telling you this because. A lot of the times it's, it's the work is for you. Um, I I guess it works both ways, it's, I'm one, I'm I'm talking about the goal of what I'm wanting to say. Because most people wait until they're talking to figure out what they actually want to say.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  And then at the other side, I'm telling the person why I'm telling them that. I mean, you can say X, Y, and Z, but they're not sure what the point is behind it. Yeah, I'd put it out as flat as you can.

• 59:30Steven Rinella?

  Let me complexify it.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Wonderful.

• 59:33Steven Rinella?

  There's other individuals present.

• 59:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:36Steven Rinella?

  Everybody doesn't really know each other that well.

• 59:38Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 59:39Steven Rinella?

  So here you are in a situation like, um, I want to show everybody a good time, which means having some success because they're going to enjoy that. At the same time, do I, do I, am I going to humiliate this guy in front of all these other people?

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. So they, I, yeah, I would, I definitely wouldn't, that wouldn't be your default there. Um, I would pause it, uh, toss it, toss it up as a question to them or even saying maybe. Like give them, them a, a choice. So even if you say something like, hey, so maybe we, I, I want to, I, I like how you're calling them. Let's maybe wait until we're doing X, Y, and Z, or let's say you wanted to stop altogether.

• 1:00:19Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:19Speaker 00

  It's just say, hey, I have, I have some ideas for you on the game call. Can you, I need you to hold off for a few, you know, X, Y, and Z, a few passes. And we'll try later on in the afternoon, maybe when they're not coming in as hard. So.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Could you be, could you be like sneaky about it and be like, listen, you, you need to listen to this guy call for a while?

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  Ain't nothing wrong with that. I mean, um, yeah, I, I think anytime you're also using that as like a teaching opportunity because they're trying to get better at it.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  Uh, I mean, because I, I, I know I have, uh, two cousins of mine that, um, they will, um, they guide over in Lake Caddo, um, which is North Texas. And, um, yeah, they'll, they'll go and sometimes while they were learning, we'd be with a, a real guide out in duck hunting or something. And because they think that they've done a few guides, they're just as good as they are. And the real guide that we were paying is, God, can y'all, we need y'all to knock it off. Uh, and so, you know, what I've heard them go is just go, hey, guys, I need you to hold off for a little bit. And then he just never tells them when to come back on.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  But you know, but that's how they, that's also how they, they learn. So everybody's been around that. So it's, I, I, I do like, it can be really forgiving. It just, you can't do it at a time where let's say everybody's got their schedule together. You've spent money on all of this stuff. You're here to achieve a goal. And, uh, so if they're hurting that goal, you need to tell them.

• 1:01:47Steven Rinella?

  So you you never you wouldn't recommend just letting it be like you gotta go you you recognize the need to address it.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  Definitely. Yeah. Well, there's some things I would let be, but if it's just they're blowing the call and they're if they're if they're blowing the ducks, I mean, then yeah, I would definitely be saying something.

• 1:02:04Steven Rinella?

  Okay, who's got this one?

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  Uh, this one's mine. Um, this has happened to me more than once. Um, and it'll often come down to who can get their stuff together fastest and start running up the trail. But, um, you arrive at the trailhead a parking spot at the same time as a complete stranger and there's already tension in the air. How how to address who's gonna hunt where, especially when you've got like a specific spot already in mind that you're going to.

• 1:02:33Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. And they and they're going to the same spot?

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Well, it's either you race them, you get ahead of them without saying a word to get to your spot, or you decide to have a conversation with them and say who's going where I've got like, how do you how do you get to where you're like, I'm going to this spot?

• 1:02:52Speaker 00

  You shouldn't.

• 1:02:54Steven Rinella?

  You shouldn't?

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:02:55Steven Rinella?

  No, no, you tell the other guy they shouldn't go to that. Picture you had a boat launch.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 1:03:01Steven Rinella?

  It's like pre it's like duck season. You got a boat launch. Most people that launch boats in this place are going to X place.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:03:09Steven Rinella?

  There's another guy launching right next to you.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're not sure.

• 1:03:12Steven Rinella?

  You could either be like, I'm not, I'm just gonna act like he's not here.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  And just tear ass out of there.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Steven Rinella?

  Or you'd be like, let's go.

• 1:03:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Steven Rinella?

  So like, hey, you know, where are you headed? Because I'm thinking about.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I've I've seen it best work where you you approach that person, say, hey, hey, you heading out, heading out? Yeah, I've gotten ready. We'll just have, you know, a little bit of BS. And then, well, you wanna, I think we should make a plan on where each other are going. So another, it's one of these things where it's always good to just say we instead of, hey, where are you going? And they're gonna go, I don't know if I should tell you.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I've I've done it where I've, you know, approached a person and I've I've said, where are you thinking about going?

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  And then they'll say the spot where I was. And then I'm in a pickle, right? If they're planning on going where I was, then I'm like, then I gotta be like, okay, go ahead.

• 1:04:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I like that. Like, hey, what should we do here?

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, whenever you can say, uh, kind of. You're acknowledging that they're there. I wouldn't just ignore them, but I think it shows a lot of maturity too. Just as a mature hunter to go up to the person, introduce yourself. Because you're getting to meet another person, be another hunter. Great. That's another good contact for you. Cause they're always another set of eyes and ears on what's happening. And if you could say, hey, I think we should, I think you okay with us making a plan on where each other are going? They're most likely going to say, yeah. Or even if you recommend it, I think we should have a plan on. Let's make a game plan if that's all right with you and where we're going. And then they'll typically, well, I think about going X, Y, and Z, or they might just say, yeah, that that sounds good. And that gives you the chance to say, I think I'm going to head off.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  You know, this direction, going to cut east around the bend there and then just land somewhere around there. If they're going to the same place, then that's a different, that's a different. Scenario depends if you're really wanting to, it's kind of like whoever says it first.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  You know, whoever kind of claims.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  And I've never won. I've always been like, where are you going rather than, I'm going here.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've definitely heard those kinds of people say, well, I'm going this way. I don't know where you're going. This is where I'm going. Meaning don't even, don't even think about going that direction. Because I think hunters in particular is part of the, the nature of it all. We're very territorial.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:05:24Speaker 00

  Very dominant. It's whatever we can to mark our territory, our fishing spot or whatever it is. So.

• 1:05:30Steven Rinella?

  You know how I got out of this most recently?

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  What's happened?

• 1:05:33Steven Rinella?

  Me and my kid were elk hunting. We had this whole plan put together. And then we get there and there's a truck parked there. The truck's still running. There's guys in it. So I said to my kid, I said, hey, go ask those guys what they're doing.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  Get the kid good.

• 1:05:46Steven Rinella?

  Cause I hate those conversations.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Steven Rinella?

  He came back with a report.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Was it helpful?

• 1:05:52Steven Rinella?

  Well, they were doing exactly, they had exactly, they saw exactly what we had seen.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  And they were doing the same thing. Well, not everybody can have their own scout, you know?

• 1:06:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. But had, so here's the deal. With that approach, where are you going? They said where they're going and he comes back and tells me where they're going and we just went to plan B. Had I gone up and said, hey, we should, since we're both here at the same time, we should make a little plan.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's just.

• 1:06:17Steven Rinella?

  Because I, well, the way I approached it, it was like, I made it, I made it sort of binary and lost out.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  But there's also like this like unwritten rule kind of sorta where like. If you get to a trailhead and there's someone, even if they got there 30 seconds before you, it's like, well, they were here first.

• 1:06:36Steven Rinella?

  Right.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 1:06:37Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but that depends a lot on like what kind of sit like.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:06:42Steven Rinella?

  What kind of trailhead, what kind of boat launch.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's there. It can be there.

• 1:06:46Steven Rinella?

  But if it's like a boat launch and there's like tons of people.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Steven Rinella?

  It's just different rules than if it's like some weird ass bridge.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  If it's 4:30 in the morning and the guy, like you know where the gobblers are.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I just think if you, if you approach the conversation, you can put it however terms you want. But if you say, no, hey, we're both here for a good hunt this morning. Let's, let's make a plan out who, where we're going and, and it just opens you up for really the whole goal. That's, it's another relationship that you could have with this person because you're gonna know them. And the next time you see them again, you're gonna know who they are. And that's, you're meeting them really for the next time.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  That's, that's why you're meeting them.

• 1:07:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I've got, I've got a guy that I've run into bear hunting and we ran into each other like two springs in a row. And then just over time where I see him and I'm like, hey, how's it going? And then one time we ended up shooting an elk out there and we didn't have enough game bags with us. And I, I texted the guy. He was like, oh, they got them in the basement of the hardware store. Just go down to the basement and they've got bags.

• 1:07:50Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 1:07:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. But it's funny. It's like, I've never met him outside of the context of two trucks on a forest service road. And most people that I encounter in that way, I think that they're an asshole.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  That funny?

• 1:08:02Steven Rinella?

  That was John, that was John, yeah, John Girox, uh, the late John Girox line was similar. He said, there's two kinds of fishermen.

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Steven Rinella?

  There's the guys you're with and the assholes.

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, it's, it's very easy to us, us versus them. And you just apply that to, you can apply that in the business context. You think of that as anything else. It's the same way. And I think there's also the kind of a natural element of. We're competing for the same animal.

• 1:08:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  You know, the, a sense of who's gonna be the, the best warrior out there.

• 1:08:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  And so it's very easy to get confrontational with people.

• 1:08:38Speaker 05

  Steve brings up a good scenario. I've told you guys this one before, but, um, it's just like an after work hunt, right? And, um, I was always like very prepared, so. Because I did not want to have any sort of human interaction when I got to my spot. So I'd have like my backpack fully rigged up and all I had to do. Yep. Is. Just roll on my back and go. Yeah. It was just to minimize these scenarios. Yeah. And, um. This is really, really steep country. And this car pulls up, guy and a kid. And guy was like, hey, where are you going? I said, oh, I'm going up on, on this ridge.

• 1:09:24Speaker 05

  And you go, oh, well, I'm, that's where I'm like, where my kid's going, just dropping him off. And it was just one of those things where I was like. Well, if you had a plan, you probably should have said that instead of asking. And B, that kid might get. Part of the way up that thing, but there's no, no, like, there's just not. Wasn't. In the realm of a realistic possibility. You gotta say, let me see the kid. Yeah. Where's he at? Where's he at? And so. I, I just left it. I said, okay, well, I'll see him up there. And if he gets something, I'll help him out.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's a perfect response.

• 1:10:00Speaker 05

  That was kinda it.

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  Well, it's so funny cause like where I'm at, we, we don't, there's no public land. I mean, you just don't.

• 1:10:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  You just don't have that available. So I love.

• 1:10:08Speaker 05

  That's a whole other conversation. You can tell the dad in this scenario did not find that to be the perfect response.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I can imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. Uh, but that's one of the reasons why I love listening to this podcast is cause you talk about the public land stuff.

• 1:10:20Speaker 05

  Well, there are power, there are powers that be.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 05

  That would prefer that no one had public land.

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's unreal.

• 1:10:27Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:10:27Speaker 00

  That's unreal to me.

• 1:10:28Steven Rinella?

  Spencer, hit him with the mushroom question.

• 1:10:29Speaker 06

  Uh, this is like a legal one. Uh, what if I serve someone mushrooms that get them really sick? Can they sue me? Like, am I, can I get in trouble? Phil comes over for a dinner party, I serve him a delicious meal of mushrooms, but they weren't the mushroom I thought they were.

• 1:10:45Speaker 03

  Oh, so you don't own a restaurant?

• 1:10:47Speaker 05

  And can Spencer use his words proactively to avoid said legal situation?

• 1:10:52Speaker 06

  I think they're a chanterre, but it turns out they're a jack-o'-lantern. And then...

• 1:10:57Speaker 00

  Those type mushrooms?

• 1:10:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, it gets you real poisonous. It gets you real sick. Could I get in trouble for that?

• 1:11:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, you could.

• 1:11:05Speaker 06

  Yeah?

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  If they wanted to see.

• 1:11:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean... At a private home?

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, even if, like, let's say, you... Somehow, they were on your back porch balcony.

• 1:11:15Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:15Speaker 00

  And they were leaning against a rail, and that was a rail that you knew you needed to fix.

• 1:11:21Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:11:21Speaker 00

  But you didn't tell them, and they leaned on it and just fell off and broke their neck. Oh yeah, they can see you.

• 1:11:26Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  That's why you have homeowner's insurance, hopefully.

• 1:11:28Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  So, because it's, even though you're, technically, they have different types of people who come onto a premise. And you have licensees, you have guests and invitees. And it all depends on the purpose of why you're there, so, like, as a... Here, like, I come here. If I trip on something, I'm not coming up with any ideas. Yeah, I'm just saying, yeah, I'm gonna watch out for these wires. Phil, are these wires okay?

• 1:11:56Speaker 05

  They're mostly covered?

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  It's, if you came there for the purpose of somebody else, yeah, you can be held liable. Now, there's gonna be a big difference for you. Well, let's say you can sue them, yes. Would you probably have likelihood of recovery? Probably not. Also, would you ever have a friend again with this person? No.

• 1:12:14Speaker 06

  What if I, like, gave Phil the mushrooms, and he took them home and cooked them, and like, "Oh, I think, Phil, that these are chanterres." But they were jack-o'-lanterns.

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  It depends on your knowledge, so, it goes to an element of knowledge. Did you have actual notice? Did you, what they would say is, what they would call sufficient notice, like, you knew or should have known? So, that "should have known" will get you, so if you knew they caused problems, then, yeah. That could definitely get you in trouble. If you had no idea... whatsoever, or let's say they were illegal to have for whatever reason. So it doesn't matter if you had notice of whether they were good or bad for you. It's kind of like giving contraband for the notice of that's, that's, it's only intended purpose. So one of my favorite, uh, just because this, I know this is a little off, but one of my favorite topics to talk about.

• 1:13:06Speaker 00

  So I wrote my, um, in law school, you have different journals you can be on. Uh, and everybody wants to be on the, the law journal, which is the most, the top of the, the writing where you write articles that get put into books. And, um, I wrote mine on negligent entrustment of a handgun. I have a firearm. Uh, that was my, that was my.

• 1:13:26Steven Rinella?

  Negligent entrustment.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Negligent entrustment of a firearm. Um, because you have, um, there's just different states. It was really to talk about just the status of the law.

• 1:13:36Steven Rinella?

  Tell people what like translate that for people.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

• 1:13:38Steven Rinella?

  Cause I could see like entrustment of a firearm, but like, yeah.

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, uh.

• 1:13:43Steven Rinella?

  What you're talking about.

• 1:13:44Speaker 00

  Cool. So, um, meaning that you entrusted a firearm to, let's say a 16 year old son who you knew had proclivities for violence.

• 1:13:56Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  Who had, hadn't run into the law, who played war video games all the time. And they entrusted the gun to the 16 year old and the six year old committed a, shot somebody.

• 1:14:06Steven Rinella?

  Good.

• 1:14:06Speaker 00

  But that happens to of, uh, cases where there was one where a guy would have a, had a firearm. He kept in the office and all the women in the, in the office knew if they worked late at night. He had a gun in his desk should they need it for self-defense. Well, one of the women was actually having an affair with that guy. And when she had an argument with her husband.

• 1:14:31Steven Rinella?

  She needs to get your book.

• 1:14:32Speaker 00

  She, yeah, exactly. When she had an argument with her husband, she went back to the office, grabbed that gun, went to her husband and shot him. And so it was a big legal question of, so she didn't own the gun. He did. He left it accessible for her should he need it. But did he have the requisite knowledge, given that he knew that they were having marital problems? He knew that she had talked about shooting her husband. Uh, so like all this stuff, how.

• 1:15:00Steven Rinella?

  It's not his fault.

• 1:15:01Speaker 00

  So that's the whole thing. That's, that's the whole thing. So whether or not.

• 1:15:04Steven Rinella?

  Whose fault do you think it was?

• 1:15:06Speaker 00

  You know, I, I know more facts on the case that he was very much involved with.

• 1:15:13Speaker 00

  Uh, hey, you can have this coffee if you want. And I, I mean, you can pour this coffee on him. That's fine. No, it's fine. You don't have to like continually pushing the, the gun and using.

• 1:15:21Speaker 05

  Got it. What was the verdict?

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  The, uh, it actually, um, went to the appellate court. Uh, the jury said yes, that he should, he was found, uh, liable for negligent and trust me of a firearm, but the appellate court in Texas said no. There's no, it did not even recognize the cause of action. So my whole article was whether or not to recognize the cause of action. Now we recognize in Texas, the cause of action for a, a car. Right? So if you, if you allow your 14 year old, I give my keys or I make my keys accessible for my 14 year old. And so you can use the truck if you need it and he goes and drives. Now he's, he's not a competent driver. He does not have a license for it. He goes out and causes an accident. I, as the parent, as the owner of that vehicle, I can be held negligent. Same, same thing for

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  companies. They have an employee who they know who's caused tons of accidents and they're going to let him drive, knowing that he's caused all kinds of problems. You can, it's just a, a theory of liability. That's all it is. But here, I was making the legal comparison because I just found it so intriguing of with a firearm, you have a license, you need to show competency to use it. Um, relatively, what's the utility of a car? It's a drive. Utility of a weapon is to, to shoot. So like it should, should it be a higher threshold? So anyway, that was, that came to mind of like, what's the, what's the theory of, of liability there? Several states recognize, uh, negligent and trust me of a firearm, but, um, Texas does not.

• 1:16:50Speaker 05

  Can I ask one, one question on this, this line of thinking? So I was given a shotgun. Um, and the person who gave me the shotgun had the barrels checked to just make sure it was still a good shot. Old, old side by side.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:06Speaker 05

  And the. Probably the second day that I used it, I was hunting with, with a friend of mine. And we finally got into some birds, shot the gun, gunshot great. And I went to reload the shotgun. I'd, you know, you always maintain good, uh, control of your barrels. And I, I'm looking at, I mean, I just remember this so clearly because every time crazy stuff happens, it's scary. Right? So I'm looking at him and I closed the, the gun and bam.

• 1:17:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Speaker 05

  Right?

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:44Speaker 05

  And so I'm like, okay, I must've had my finger on the trigger and, and my friend's like, Jesus, that was stupid. What are you doing? I'm like, well, wait a minute. Am I stupid? Right?

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:58Speaker 05

  So I pulled the shells out, put new shells in, I'm like, fingers clear of the trigger. Close, bam.

• 1:18:06Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:08Speaker 05

  Right?

• 1:18:08Steven Rinella?

  I guess the hurting your knuckles there for a while too.

• 1:18:10Speaker 05

  Oh, man.

• 1:18:11Steven Rinella?

  It's not your shoulder.

• 1:18:12Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, um, yeah, took, took the gun into a gunsmith and, and yeah.

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 1:18:18Speaker 05

  Inside the action, you know, it was just an old gun that had been sitting in a Massachusetts basement for a long time.

• 1:18:23Steven Rinella?

  And then it be, did that dude have reason to believe?

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  Right? No, no, that wouldn't have passed.

• 1:18:30Speaker 05

  That's not negligent entrustment of a firearm.

• 1:18:32Speaker 00

  No, no, I mean, that's not at all like, I am very much a proponent of just because you hand a child a, a BB gun, a pellet gun, or whatever it is, and all of a sudden you should be liable for everything they do with it. Absolutely not. I'm saying it's, it's, there's a level of knowledge. It's really just more for the legal, like theory discussion of it. Of how much sufficient knowledge do you have to have? So you see this come into play with, of course, with mass shootings. There's a student who came to school with something and so the parents just had a AK-47 of the, you know, at the, in the bedroom, right there, or whatever it is.

• 1:19:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's the thing you're seeing lately though, is prosecuting parents.

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  Correct. Yeah. It's saying you, you should know better to properly store your gun. Um, or keep it away from people who cannot, who should not be allowed to use it. And you see this a lot with the, the children that truly have, have problems, but, um, you know, in, in the case I was talking about, the guy who owned the gun was much more pushing it on to her than. Then what evidence could come out for that appellate court? But anyway, yeah, I just find it so intriguing that if you knew giving a gun to somebody that they're likely to cause harm to a person, not just because they're new, they're kid, like competency is just one element. It's also the knowledge. So the state of Texas in, well, the appellate court said, no, you have to have knowledge

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  that they will use the gun to harm somebody. So in the case of the husband and wife, then the husband should have had the knowledge that she would use the gun to kill her husband. And that was the, that was the gray area, but that just goes to.

• 1:20:09Steven Rinella?

  Like had she said, do you happen to have anything I can use to kill my husband?

• 1:20:13Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:20:13Steven Rinella?

  And he said, yeah, this pistol.

• 1:20:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:20:15Steven Rinella?

  He would have been in trouble for that.

• 1:20:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. So then it just goes to the level of, of knowledge. So appellate court said, no, he didn't have sufficient knowledge. The fact showed he probably knew that could something. I knew she didn't, I knew they had marital problems, but I didn't know she's going to actually kill the guy. That was kind of how that works. But that's what made me, when you're talking about the mushrooms of, you know, what if you give it to somebody else, does that create a chain of liability? And there's sometimes that, yeah, when you entrust something with, that's what they call it entrusting, a chattel is the legal term for it. Then you can, you can in certain situations be liable for it pretty well.

• 1:20:49Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean and they'll get years

• 1:21:33Steven Rinella?

  and years of use out of a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today.

• 1:21:41Steven Rinella?

  I used to think that like your mattress was like your shoe size. I mean, there's nothing you're gonna do to change it. But man, was I wrong. That was before I ever like had an actual good new mattress. And once I had one, I couldn't believe I'd spent my whole life sleeping on dished out junky old mattresses. Well, Helix, check this out. They got over 20 mattress models. So you can find the perfect model for you. Nothing to be embarrassed about getting yourself a new mattress. Helix has cooling upgrades too. So you can get the best rest even on hot nights. Good night's rest sets you up for a great day. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the US. And you can rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk-free,

• 1:22:25Steven Rinella?

  customer-first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Helix is the most awarded mattress brand, tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Here's what you do. Go to helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off site wide. helixsleep.com/meateater. OnX Hunt is full of great features. I always say it's my favorite app. I use the thing on a daily basis. Here's a new feature I'm very excited about. OnX Hunt's location sharing puts your whole group on one live map. So you can look and tell where everyone is. And

• 1:23:08Steven Rinella?

  if at night it gets dark and someone's not back yet, you don't gotta guess what happened to them or where they are. You can just look and tell where they are. It has implications for safety, coordination. I can't even list all the ways in which this is helpful. You opt in, and then when you guys are done, the data goes away. It's not stored. Keep the folks in your deer camp on the same page with location sharing from OnX Hunt.

• 1:23:34Steven Rinella?

  Spencer's put another one down that I that I want him to jump to which is uh asking go the permission permissions permissions remember we used to do that as a

• 1:23:44Speaker 00

  fit around the roof

• 1:23:46Speaker 06

  I uh I have a question specifically about like preparing for a hard conversation I ask a lot of folks for hunting permission this year I'm trying to hunt a new state um and so I identified six landowners sixteen landowners I wanted to ask permission for and I called sixteen of them a couple Saturdays ago and asked for permission the current way I treat that uh because I like sort of dread it it's a hard conversation or I'm a stranger I'm asking them for like one of the greatest favors they could possibly do for me

• 1:24:17Speaker 00

  Hello sir my name's Spencer Neuharth

• 1:24:20Speaker 06

  Yeah that's how it goes how how could you

• 1:24:22Steven Rinella?

  You send your kids up question one

• 1:24:25Speaker 06

  How can you best prepare for a conversation like that because the way I currently treat it is I sort of spring it on myself I like surprise myself almost I'm like I I can't think about this too much like okay I'm gonna do this it's 11 a.m. Saturday morning this is just when I'm gonna do it now and so I call all sixteen of these landowners

• 1:24:43Steven Rinella?

  And you hate it

• 1:24:44Speaker 06

  And I rip off the Band-Aid usually I get like partway into it and it's not so bad then um and I I'd like one thing I've done is I tell myself the worst thing they can do is they say no

• 1:24:54Speaker 00

  Sure

• 1:24:55Speaker 06

  And then one time I I went up to a rancher's door and I knocked on his door to ask for shed hunting permission his dog bit me I was way out of date on my rabies shot so I had to like go get a so actually the worst thing that could happen to me is I get bit by a dog

• 1:25:09Steven Rinella?

  But you could have sued him and got the whole ranch

• 1:25:12Speaker 06

  You're right maybe that was the son

• 1:25:13Steven Rinella?

  So in the end it worked out

• 1:25:15Speaker 06

  So so talk about preparing for a hard conversation like asking for hunting permission

• 1:25:20Speaker 00

  Yeah so what I I teach um for the more difficult conversations is using what I call a frame for them and so there's a three parts to it one is you tell someone what you want to talk about two you tell them how you want to walk away from in the conversation and three you get their buy-in into that frame I see this a lot in the business context of course where somebody needs to Correct a decision. So let's put it in context of maybe y'all had a business meeting here and you need to correct something that that's somebody's done. So let's say you're gonna have a difficult conversation with Corinne. It could be as simple as, you know, hey, hey Corinne, I need to talk to you about some comments you made at last Thursday's

• 1:26:03Speaker 00

  meeting and I want to walk away with it with the understanding that we can't talk about that again. Sound good? And then right there, you know exactly what we're talking about, exactly what the walk away is. And then you're getting to their buying. Now you don't have to worry about, hey, you remember that meeting that we had? You've had the whole conversation already. Yeah, exactly. So now there's not the anxiety because you're only thinking of what, when you're in those situations, you're only thinking about what you need to say. You need to be thinking what's gonna help is you think of what they're gonna be thinking about. Cause they're gonna be thinking, what, what do you, what's going on here? There's new element. What's going on is it's their, their fight or flight's gonna kick in of, you know, how should I handle this new threat? What do you want? Get to the point, like that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's like when you're there at the door. Yeah.

• 1:26:48Speaker 00

  Beautiful ranch you got here. Yeah, yeah, like you're. Gorgeous. Is that a new truck? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. And the guy's like, uh.

• 1:26:57Steven Rinella?

  Who are you?

• 1:26:58Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:26:59Steven Rinella?

  What's going on? Am I up to date on my taxes?

• 1:27:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the, uh, what's that? Oh, brother, we're out though. Uh, he's, he's shooting the, uh, the tax man. The kids shooting the tax man. He's like, good boy. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so I, I love frames and they can be used also in the productive sense. So let's, let's say you need, um, you want to talk to somebody for later today and you might say, hey, I need to talk to you about the budget for tomorrow's meeting. I'm gonna walk away with us being on the same page. Does that work? And then right there, you just like, do you know, instead of like, hey, you got five minutes? And then you're gonna lead and then what typically happens is you go, hey, uh, so I, I'm thinking, and you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but, and then you just start kind of wandering.

• 1:27:45Speaker 00

  And then, and then the other person is going, where is this going? What's the point? And then we have. The problem, you see this a lot in relationships, you have the tendency to want to cut in. Oh, you want me to do this? And like, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, no, that's not it. I, I, I need, because they don't know how to land the, the plane. So they just kind of talk in, in circles. So you could put this in the context of needing permission. So if it's, hey, I'd like to talk to you about your ranch and I want to walk away with getting your permission on being able to, to hunt here. Is that all right? Like just having that conversation, putting it in a one, two, three framework. Now you're going to have to tailor it for whatever is most comfortable for you. But it's a great way of letting them know out at the outset of what's the ask.

• 1:28:29Speaker 00

  Because I, I find that a lot of your, your property owners, really anybody, they just want to say, get to the point. They want as little time as possible with you. And so you have a very small window to like, just say, um, I, I like to talk with you about X. And I would want, um, like I can say maybe, um, and I want to walk away with the feeling or I want to, that's more in the business sense for you. I want to walk, ideally, um, I want to talk with you to walk away with this permission of doing X, Y, and Z. Like I'm, I'm telling you right now, the goal for the conversation, what's the finish line for that conversation? Cause a lot of people will, they start talking and they just, they don't know where they want to land. So saying that upfront might help.

• 1:29:10Speaker 06

  Yeah. A few more notes on that. I, I find that occasionally I've gotten permission because that person was just in a really good mood when I happened to talk to them. Or on the contrary, like they just got done yelling at their naughty 14 year old and they're in a bad mood. Yeah. When I come ask them for this giant favor. How, how can I like, uh, butter them up or get them in a good mood at the offset? So it's, you know, increases my chances by two percent.

• 1:29:34Speaker 00

  Without them thinking you're schmuck.

• 1:29:35Speaker 05

  Yeah. Or assuming too much. Yeah. Oh, I'm in a bad mood?

• 1:29:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:42Steven Rinella?

  He's tried, you know, being like, uh, you know, three lawyers walk into a bar. Just starting right out, you know?

• 1:29:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. Let's talk to you about your warranty, your extended warranty.

• 1:29:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, let me tell you, so I was, this is probably about seven months ago or so. And, um, my wife and I were at Target, really she was at Target, I was just there. And, uh,

• 1:30:06Steven Rinella?

  I know the feeling.

• 1:30:07Speaker 00

  Watching her be at Target. Yeah, I was watching her at Target. And, uh, we're, I, while she's at checkout, I really wanted, um,

• 1:30:16Speaker 00

  I wanted some ice cream. I was at Target. I was like, look, if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna get myself some ice cream. So I went down and got like one of those little bitty, small ice creams. They don't have any spoons. I don't know what to do about it. So I'm thinking, and there's a Starbucks inside this Target. And so I go up, I don't want anything at Starbucks, and they don't have just spoons available. And so I, I, the lady did not look like she was in a good mood. And so I, my car, here we go. Let's see what we can do. I walk in, I say, I need a miracle. You think you can perform a miracle? And she goes, she immediately brightened. She goes, I just might.

• 1:30:57Speaker 00

  I said, I said, I got this ice cream. I don't got a spoon. And without me even asking, she goes, well, I got a spoon you can have. And went, got it, and brought it out, right there. And I said, well, you just, you can tell everybody you performed a miracle today. And she, I mean, she, we just got to have that. So it's that element of humor, that levity in it, that even if you were to say, knock on the door and say, I need a miracle from you. Or, I mean, even if it's something that's very lighthearted, they, people tend to open up, just to have a little bit of fun and humor, as long as the compliment's genuine. Because a lot of the times compliments from your, someone you're asking something for, they're like, what do you need? What do you want?

• 1:31:41Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah. That's what I was joking about. The beautiful, that's like a joke. It's like, beautiful ranch you got here.

• 1:31:46Speaker 00

  Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:47Steven Rinella?

  And they're like, what the hell is this guy doing to my door?

• 1:31:50Speaker 04

  There's gonna be some ranchers somewhere in eastern Montana. It's like, where'd you get that miracle? I need a miracle line. I've heard that like 20 times this season.

• 1:31:58Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:31:59Speaker 04

  That's exactly.

• 1:32:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  With Spencer's scenario, when would be the time to bring up, like, offering to do work? In exchange, like? Cause if you're gonna throw it right out there that you're looking for permission, when would you say I'd be willing to?

• 1:32:16Speaker 00

  Oh, so I would put that right in the frame.

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Speaker 00

  So I would say something along the lines of, once you say hello, whatever. Um, I like to talk with you about your, your, your beautiful ranch here and I ideally, I love to walk away with a, a relationship where I work on this property for you in exchange for permission for me to be able to do some hunting.

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:32:37Speaker 00

  That work?

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 1:32:37Speaker 00

  And I mean, like, that is out of the gate, right out of the gate, rather than, and it's not wasting their time. They're not gonna get anxious over like, who says stranger at my door? Um, then you're saying it right up front, rather than them going, you know, what, what do you need? And you're going, I mean, I'll, I'll work. I mean, in exchange, I'll do X, Y, and Z.

• 1:32:56Speaker 02

  They might, might've said no, you'd be like, but I'll.

• 1:32:59Speaker 00

  And the thing is, they're already thinking no. I mean, right out of the gate, before you, they even answer, open the door, they're thinking no. I mean, that's just, they're probably not even gonna wanna come to the door.

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:09Speaker 00

  I mean, how many people even, when somebody knocks on somebody's door now, it's like, what, what is this maniac doing here? Like, nobody wants to be at somebody's house anymore.

• 1:33:18Steven Rinella?

  Someone knocked on our door last night. I said to my kid, I said,

• 1:33:21Speaker 00

  Who in the world?

• 1:33:21Steven Rinella?

  I said, peek around the corner. Is it a man or a woman?

• 1:33:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:26Speaker 00

  Exactly. Exactly. People will just say, no.

• 1:33:29Steven Rinella?

  So my wife gets up and goes, oh.

• 1:33:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:33Speaker 00

  That's awesome.

• 1:33:33Steven Rinella?

  I know the dude, like, one of those dudes tried to, uh, do solar.

• 1:33:37Speaker 03

  We got that the other night too. All of our dogs started barking. We were like, I'm gonna look at the video cameras.

• 1:33:43Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I know. I don't like to send them out.

• 1:33:46Speaker 05

  Not me. I just whip the door open. I'm like, come on in.

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  I do love it. Yeah.

• 1:33:50Speaker 00

  I do love it when all the dogs start barking, cause then they feel like they have to apologize right out of the gate.

• 1:33:55Steven Rinella?

  Sure.

• 1:33:55Speaker 00

  And you have the upper hand now.

• 1:33:58Steven Rinella?

  I wanna hit you with one, I know you're like the expert, but I wanna hit you on one I just stumbled into.

• 1:34:02Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:34:03Steven Rinella?

  Um, contractors?

• 1:34:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Steven Rinella?

  You got, something's wrong with your, you gotta call a plumber?

• 1:34:08Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:34:09Steven Rinella?

  Right? You know what I started doing? It's just extremely effective. A guy, he calls a plumber. A lot of guys are gonna wanna like puff up a little bit.

• 1:34:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:20Steven Rinella?

  What I've started doing, and it works so good, is to be like, man, when it comes to electrical, I'm a moron, dude.

• 1:34:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:29Steven Rinella?

  Like, I look in that mechanical room, dude, and all I see is like wires and pipes.

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:34:34Steven Rinella?

  They're like, oh, let's get in there and take a look, you know? Cause I imagine a lot of guys like, well, you know, I tried X, Y and Z and you know, you know, I could probably figure it out. You know, I'm a little busy.

• 1:34:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Steven Rinella?

  I'm like, man, I, I look under that thing, dude, I have no idea what I'm looking at.

• 1:34:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's incredibly effective.

• 1:34:51Steven Rinella?

  Oh, my God, it works good.

• 1:34:52Speaker 00

  Because, because, let me tell you the reason why, it's because you instantly become the student and they become the teacher. And people love to teach. People love to share their knowledge.

• 1:35:01Steven Rinella?

  And I'm also not lying.

• 1:35:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:02Steven Rinella?

  When I look at my, we have in-floor heating. When I look at my mechanical room, I don't know what I'm looking at.

• 1:35:08Speaker 00

  Uh, Nate Bargatze, who I'm a huge fan of, uh, has this bit about when people, it's like his, his wife is the one who knows all the man knowledge. Let's put it like he knows, knows everything. And so she called somebody to fix a water heater and he opens up and he's like, ha, and the guy's like, I'm here to do your water heater. And he's like, yeah, they're in there, you know, somewhere like he has no idea where it is. And so he's always like, I, I've known nothing about it. And so he's always like, oh yeah, that's, I agree. That's probably, that's, we probably do need a new one. Just replace the whole thing. Do you have something to sell? Like it's, it's fantastic. But, uh, yeah, that's an excellent strategy because there's no, uh, there's no battle of the ego.

• 1:35:48Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:48Speaker 00

  Uh, because we have such a feeling of to have any kind of credibility, I have to feel like, you know, I, I did this and I tried that and I did this and I tried that.

• 1:35:56Steven Rinella?

  Cause dudes feel emasculated.

• 1:35:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:35:58Steven Rinella?

  But I just emasculate myself.

• 1:36:00Speaker 00

  And that's genius.

• 1:36:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:01Speaker 00

  It's genius to be able to, um, to do the, and, and, um, I mean, the, the thing is, I think wives pick up on this of like, it takes a really smart guy to be that dumb kind of thing, uh, where it's like, no, you're just trying to get out of it. Yeah. Like, I don't know how to fold these clothes. Yeah, you do. Like, you're just not gonna, I'm, I'm not very good at loading the dishwasher. Yeah, you are. It's cool.

• 1:36:23Speaker 06

  My, my wife has described it as weaponized incompetence.

• 1:36:25Speaker 00

  There we go.

• 1:36:26Speaker 06

  I don't think she came up with that term, but she's learned about it somewhere.

• 1:36:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and, and, um, I, I want to also pick up on something too of the, uh, how do you kind of break the mold with somebody that when you're first trying to ask something from them or really anytime? Uh, and this could be for any kind of-

• 1:36:42Steven Rinella?

  The mold being no.

• 1:36:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, is you, you say exactly what they're thinking in the reverse way. I'm going to explain it. So let's say, um, if, if I was going to tell you something and I, and I said, um, I don't mean this disrespectfully. And I say something, how are you gonna take it?

• 1:37:01Steven Rinella?

  The same way when someone says, I don't wanna get political.

• 1:37:04Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:37:05Steven Rinella?

  And I'm like, please don't.

• 1:37:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:37:08Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so it's that. Anytime you say, look.

• 1:37:13Steven Rinella?

  It's like, okay, then stop talking.

• 1:37:16Speaker 00

  Then don't. Then don't. Yeah. When somebody says, I don't mean to be rude. And then they say the rudest thing you've ever heard, or whatever it is, you know, I don't, I don't mean this to be.

• 1:37:25Speaker 05

  And I don't wanna be racist.

• 1:37:27Speaker 00

  Exactly. Exactly. And then they say the most racist thing. Yeah, exactly. So instead, what you do is you flip it. So, um, in other words, when you're coming up to that person, maybe, uh, instead of going, like, I don't wanna waste your time. What are they thinking? You're wasting my time.

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:47Speaker 00

  Instead.

• 1:37:48Speaker 02

  Selling them something.

• 1:37:49Speaker 00

  Exactly. Now, instead, you say it for them, instead of, instead of saying, it's not that case when they both know it is, because they, they're gonna, people naturally wanna say the reverse of what you're thinking. So instead, say, you're probably, you probably think I'm wasting your time. And then say it.

• 1:38:06Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I don't like this.

• 1:38:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, that's.

• 1:38:08Steven Rinella?

  Not in the permission aspect.

• 1:38:09Speaker 02

  And I am.

• 1:38:10Speaker 00

  Well.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  I am wasting your time.

• 1:38:11Speaker 00

  Well, you could say that of, uh, let's say.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  What if you said, like, thanks for giving me some of your time?

• 1:38:17Speaker 00

  Or sorry to bother you. Uh, yeah, don't, because then you're just telling, you're confirming. I would rather you say, you probably think I'm here to bother you. Okay? And then, then they'll actually listen. Uh, because if you say, I'm sorry to bother you, it's just the opposite. Or if it's, let's say you and I are in a conversation and you don't really trust me. Are you, you're already, I can just tell what I'm doing is I'm labeling what you're not gonna like about me. So it may not be leading with that, but it could be something like, look, I, I know you probably don't trust me. And then you're gonna think the opposite, rather than me saying, and now, I, I need you to trust me here. You're automatically gonna go, no, I don't, I don't trust anything that you say. So it, when you have the, people love to think the opposite. So if I say, you can't do that, what's the first thing you think of?

• 1:39:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can. So we have this, this really quick switch of thinking the opposite of whatever you say. So if you say it as if on their behalf, uh, now you probably think I'm, you most likely think X, Y, and Z, their head goes, no, I don't. You, you think the opposite of it. It's a, it's a really great technique that I, that I like.

• 1:39:22Steven Rinella?

  What's the movie where there's a? Is it Mandalorian or something? There's like a dangerous seeming person. And, and there's like a point in the movie where they say to a person, you can stay here and die or come with me and live.

• 1:39:34Speaker 00

  I, I hope it's a Mandalorian. I love that show.

• 1:39:36Steven Rinella?

  And it's like, uh, you know, and it's sort of presented in a way where the person's like, I'll go with you.

• 1:39:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:43Steven Rinella?

  It's like against all, sort of like against all visual.

• 1:39:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:47Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I mean? There's like a, like a surprising way of.

• 1:39:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:51Steven Rinella?

  I don't even know what that is as a rhetorical strategy.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  Hey, you're just, uh, you're narrowing the choices. So whenever you can like give them a set of choices. No, you're just, you're.

• 1:40:00Speaker 05

  I mean, I think the actual line is I can take you in warm or I can take you in cold.

• 1:40:05Speaker 00

  That's it. That's it. Yeah.

• 1:40:07Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, no, you're right. That's what it is. Yeah. You can take you in warm or take you in cold.

• 1:40:11Speaker 00

  That's so good. What a great line.

• 1:40:13Steven Rinella?

  It'd be like, yeah, I gotta go warm.

• 1:40:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll go warm. So anytime you, you, um, you can, uh, give people choices in conversation, they, they love it. Rather, it's like, uh, I say this in the, the book, when you talk about everything, you talk about nothing. So when you put a frame around the conversation, you actually get very detailed. Instead of coming in to say, all right, we got a lot to talk about today. Nobody ever feels like you leave the, the conversation productive, but if you can eliminate the just one thing, you're going to be a, a whole lot better. But yeah, that's what, um, that's what comes to mind for me.

• 1:40:43Speaker 06

  Can, can you talk about having a hard conversation in person versus over the phone? I find that if I'm looking for permissions, it, it takes, um, more, uh, like more courage for me to go up to somebody's front door and talk to them than call them over the phone. But the outcome is usually better in person. It's, it's harder for them to tell me no. When I'm standing in front of them.

• 1:41:05Steven Rinella?

  With a little child.

• 1:41:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't have one of those.

• 1:41:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. You can borrow one of mine anytime. I got one on crutches right now.

• 1:41:12Speaker 00

  Oh, perfect.

• 1:41:14Steven Rinella?

  You bring that kid, you're not getting, you're getting a lot of permission. Okay, hobble up there in them crutches.

• 1:41:19Speaker 00

  Oliver Twisted.

• 1:41:20Speaker 06

  Do you have a wheelchair for him too?

• 1:41:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:41:22Steven Rinella?

  I don't want to be manipulative.

• 1:41:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:24Speaker 06

  Can you talk about though?

• 1:41:25Steven Rinella?

  You're probably thinking that I'm manipulating you with this small child in crutches. But he legit had, it's my buddy's kid.

• 1:41:32Speaker 05

  And he's dying to talk to you.

• 1:41:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the uh, well, going to them always in person is always much better. There's that element of people have a harder time saying no when you're in person than over the phone because you're talking to them. Same reason why people in YouTube comments will say anything, but they've never say in front of you. Yeah. It's a whole, I mean, it's just a whole different level of credibility and humanity to it. And whenever they can see how you look, right, and you can go, okay, this person's a genuine person, or this person doesn't look trustworthy. Maybe it's just how you're dressed. Maybe it's how you're carrying yourself. Maybe it's how you're smiling. Maybe it's, I mean, they just go, I just, I don't know, something about you I just like. Uh, and so that element always gets you far because they're already, while you're talking, they are calculating everything about from your eyes to how you're standing.

• 1:42:18Speaker 00

  Is this a person I can trust? And so we, I mean, I'd see that with juries. I mean, jurors have a, we are humans. We have a sixth sense about us knowing if someone's genuine or not. Like, the worst thing a witness can do on the stand is try and fake sympathy. If they're trying to like drum up tears, I mean, the jury will just crucify them. A jury will, oh, yeah, you'll tank your case quickly. If somebody, if they feel like somebody's faking it, you're done. You're done. Uh, because they go, ah, this person's a liar. I don't like anything about this person.

• 1:42:52Speaker 05

  I feel like that's gotta be good to see. It's gotta make you feel good about humanity.

• 1:42:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're getting permissions, don't go up and start crying right off the bat. Right, yeah, yeah. You know what? Yeah, this reminded me of a time I broke my. I just got nowhere to go.

• 1:43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're, I, I, I also would think as the landowner, when somebody has the guts to come all that way, drive all that way and come to you face to face, so they would say, you know, I don't care if it's a man or woman, but if, that's the term man to man, or whatever it is, you know, you come up and talk to me, then that's absolutely. So I did this once, uh, it wasn't hunting, but I needed this, um, location for something with a trial. And this guy owned the property. I talked to him on the phone. He said, no, immediate, no, no, no. But I waited a week. Went to his house, knocked on his door. I wasn't wearing a suit, just wore regular clothes

• 1:43:50Speaker 00

  and told him what I was there for. And he goes, "Yes, that's fine. You can do that." I mean, and nothing really changed.

• 1:43:56Speaker 03

  You didn't say that you were the person who called.

• 1:43:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, no, I didn't. I didn't say that I was a person who called, but he, I didn't lead with that, but he did ask, "Are you the one that called?" And I said, "Yeah, I am, but I wanted to meet you in person." And so that just changed the dynamic when there's something about a handshake, there's something about, you know, looking somebody in the eye where that sends a different frequency, a different signal of trustworthiness in the conversation. It's easy to say no to a telemarketer or whoever, or just not answer the phone.

• 1:44:27Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and years of use out of a set.

• 1:45:11Steven Rinella?

  Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. I used to think that like your mattress was like your shoe size. I mean, there's nothing you're going to do to change it, but man, was I wrong. That was before I ever like had an actual good new mattress. And once I had one, I couldn't believe I'd spent my whole life sleeping on dished out junky old mattresses. Well, Helix, check this out. They got over 20 mattress models, so you can find the perfect model for you. Nothing to be embarrassed about getting yourself a new mattress. Helix has cooling upgrades too, so you can get the best rest even on hot nights. Good night's rest sets you up for a great day. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the US, and you can rest

• 1:45:55Steven Rinella?

  With seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix Guarantee offers a risk-free, customer-first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Helix is the most awarded mattress brand, tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Here's what you do. Go to helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off sitewide. That's helixsleep.com/meateater for 20% off sitewide. Helixsleep.com/meateater. Go and ask any serious whitetail hunter what the best time of the year is to be out in a tree. And it's not a holiday, okay? The best time is not already on your calendar. It's the rut.

• 1:46:40Steven Rinella?

  It's the two or three week window that serious deer hunters plan everything else around. And OnX Hunt's rut calendar does this for you and helps take the guesswork out of your planning. It tracks the different phases of the rut as they move through your area so you know when to book the time off, when to have the whole camp locked in and ready, or conversely, when it's still too early to burn out your best spots. You only get so many rut hunts in your life, so use the rut calendar within OnX Hunt to make the most of the whitetail rut this fall.

• 1:47:19Speaker 03

  Randall, can you hit him with? Two of yours I feel like are on the same wavelength. I like them.

• 1:47:26Speaker 04

  This is for him, by the way. This is.

• 1:47:28Steven Rinella?

  Oh. You have a hunting trip planned.

• 1:47:31Speaker 04

  I like this one.

• 1:47:31Steven Rinella?

  And a friend asked to join you. You don't want them to come. Either because you want to go alone, you think they'll ruin the experience, or you don't think they'll enjoy the experience. How do you tell them that they can't join you without jeopardizing the relationship?

• 1:47:48Speaker 00

  That's a great question. Uh, and this kind of speaks a little bit to the compliment insult sandwich, a little bit. Which I'm looking forward to discussing. It's this, um, so where I've seen it gone bad is people lead with the, oh, man, you know, I'd love to. Oh, you know, you're my best friend. Oh, you know, I love, and they just, they shower the compliment. They shower the, the fluff. And then, uh, then they end it with the word, but that's, that's what happens. I mean, in relationships, I love you. Hey, I love you, but you're driving me crazy. Or, um, you know, you, you have a difficult conversation and you say, yeah, you're, you're fantastic. How's everything going? It's good. Um, listen, um, and then everything tanks.

• 1:48:34Speaker 00

  Like that's, that's how it happens is you have that conversation. Hey, how's it going? You good? Every family's good. So listen, uh, and then all of a sudden you know, the whole tenor of the conversation changes. Um, and so same with the, but you're going to break up with somebody. It's, I, you're so great. You know, I've loved everything we've done together, but, and then they just know it's, it's tank. What, what the word but does is delete everything in, in front of it because it just shows that you didn't really care. Yeah, sure. It, it just has a way of just backspace, backspace, backspace. Um, so what I would recommend for this friend, instead of going, oh, man, you know, I'd love for you to come, but instead of that, I would, I'd tell people to flip it. Start with the no.

• 1:49:16Speaker 00

  Now I wouldn't just leave with no period for your friend. It's, it's, it's your buddy. It's, it's your pal. I, I like to say things when I'm really uncomfortable about it. Say, I made a promise to myself. Because then, then they can't ever disagree with it. They can't like argue with it. If you say, look, I promised myself I was gonna do a solo hunting trip this year. I'd love for you to come on the next one. I'd love for you to come in. It's just not gonna work out this time around. That's a great one. Simple as that, it's gonna work instead of, oh, man, you know, I'd love to for you to come, but I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go by myself on this one. Thanks. Mm hmm. Um, that's gonna feel a little bit less instead of, I say this, um, it's the same kind of technique when I say you need to,

• 1:50:00Speaker 00

  if it's you who needs to turn down an invitation, so let's flip it. If you need to turn down an invitation, we typically try that. Just please, Randall, come with me. Right. I would love it if you came with me. Yeah. He don't wanna go. But he, but he doesn't wanna go. Uh, instead of the, man, I'd love to, you know, I would, uh, but, but, but I, but I can't make it, you know, I got, and what happens is we have the tendency to over explain. You know, I, I, I'd love to, but you know, I got the, I got the dog, you know, and I got a, I got a tree that's growing in the yard. Like we have this make up the dumbest things that we got, you know, it's anything, anything and everything ends up being like a, The kids. Yeah, you know, I got, I'm busy and you know, life and I got, you have three. Tariffs. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:50:44Speaker 00

  Plus my ankles been bugging me. It's this economy, you know, um, as soon as, and there's that tendency, you say so much that the other person just goes, look, if you just didn't wanna come, just tell me. Yeah. You know, it, it becomes disingenuous in a sense. So what I teach is you start with the, the no. And then you, uh, have, then you, instead of the gratitude, the no, you begin with the no, then end with the gratitude. So instead of a thank you, but I can't, or thank you so much, I, uh, not gonna do it. Uh, lead with the no, I can't make it. I hope it's a wonderful time. I've heard a whole lot of good things about it. Let me know how it goes. Or, um, I ca- I can't make it this go around.

• 1:51:27Speaker 00

  I'd love to. Thank you so much for inviting me. Like that's how it usually goes. We'll say, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me, but I can't make it. Yeah. Instead, say, I can't make it. Thank you so much for thinking of me and inviting me. It means a lot. I hope it's a great time. Like if you can, the same thing, like if there's a new coffee shop, if you invited me to go with coffee and I couldn't make it and say, no, I, uh, I, I'd love to, but, but I can't. It would be as simple as beginning, so let's put it in a framework. Begin with the no. Next is gratitude. Three is if you can sprinkle in some kindness. So that is, I can't make it today. Thank you so much for inviting me. I hope it's a great time. Or I heard it's a great place. Or, you know, I hope you, I hope you shoot them straight.

• 1:52:12Speaker 00

  Whatever it is, that's, that's a much better way to handle it.

• 1:52:15Steven Rinella?

  Got you.

• 1:52:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:16Steven Rinella?

  My buddy, he used to have, he used to give breaking up advice, how to break up with people.

• 1:52:20Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:52:22Steven Rinella?

  I've been out of that game for a long, long time.

• 1:52:25Speaker 00

  But was he just like paying to handle this on the street?

• 1:52:27Steven Rinella?

  Or like, what is he just? I used to work for my buddy Ronnie. So he would tell the guy, so, so Ronnie, like a lot, a lot of guys would work for Ronnie. And at the age when we worked for Ronnie was when you were, you know, 18, 19, 20, whatever. And so he would get irritated with these guys that would be in these relationships. They're together, broke up, together, broke up. So he had like this school of thought on breakups.

• 1:52:48Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 1:52:49Steven Rinella?

  He didn't like, he would advise, when you break up with someone, you can never give the idea that there's something they could do to improve things.

• 1:52:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:53:00Steven Rinella?

  It's just not working out.

• 1:53:02Speaker 00

  That's so true.

• 1:53:03Steven Rinella?

  We just don't, right?

• 1:53:04Speaker 00

  That's so true.

• 1:53:04Steven Rinella?

  Ronnie would say it's this, he would, he would advise you to go say, this has nothing to do with you.

• 1:53:11Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:53:12Steven Rinella?

  This is just entirely me. Um, we're done.

• 1:53:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:53:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:20Speaker 00

  Do you like that strategy?

• 1:53:21Steven Rinella?

  He advised, cause he's like, anytime you go, well, it's just, I feel, well, it's, it's, you know, you're creating a thing like, well, maybe if I change.

• 1:53:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:53:31Steven Rinella?

  Or maybe if they relate, yeah. And it's just like, it really, it really has nothing to do with you.

• 1:53:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is my.

• 1:53:35Steven Rinella?

  It's just me. I like, we're done.

• 1:53:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. So this is the category, I put this in, um, on having a sensitive conversation. It's a little bit different because most of the time in sensitive conversations, let's say you need to fire somebody. Let them go. Let's say you need to break up. I mean, that's essentially what that is. Uh, we have the tendency to begin with the small talk of, let's say you need to let somebody go. They sit down in your office and he goes, so how are you doing? Everything good? How's your, how's your mom? How's it, y'all did do, I saw y'all went fishing the other day. Didn't it good?

• 1:54:07Steven Rinella?

  Where, where exactly were you fishing?

• 1:54:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, and then you turn it, then you go, so listen. And they know, okay, it's the worst. Something's coming. This is terrible. Uh, the worst thing ever. Um, or the same thing with the, if you're having a conversation with your girlfriend and you go,

• 1:54:25Speaker 00

  I've really enjoyed being together. All of a sudden, you're talking in past tense. Right? All of a sudden, you're in past tense and they're like, oh, what's happening? Hey, I think you're so great. You know, I've really loved what, and they're just waiting for it the whole entire time.

• 1:54:38Speaker 00

  And it's

• 1:54:38Steven Rinella?

  I've really enjoyed being together.

• 1:54:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then it's like, it's not you, it's me.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  You remember that time?

• 1:54:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:47Speaker 02

  That we were together?

• 1:54:47Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. That would give you a sinking feeling. If my wife was like, you know, I've enjoyed our time together. But, uh, no reason to think we're not gonna continue though, correct?

• 1:54:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. You know, whenever you say like, you know, I think the world of you, like that kind of stuff. That kind of stuff is like, they know something is coming. Instead, when it's, instead of using that fluff language, you tell them this is going to be difficult and you can apply this for anything. And you, this is, so instead of the fluff, you begin with something that sounds like, this is gonna be a hard conversation. Or it can be as simple as this is gonna be a difficult conversation. Or you're gonna say, you're not gonna like what I have to say.

• 1:55:25Speaker 02

  What about the one like your old man used to give you like, this is gonna hurt you more than it's gonna hurt me?

• 1:55:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that, oh yeah, it's always a lie. You know, it's always a lie. But if they, if, if, even if they, you said something like, um, you're not gonna like what I have to say, or this is gonna come as a surprise to you. Or, um, this isn't gonna be fun to discuss, whatever that is. That is, what you're doing is preparing them, like readying them for that conversation. Because if I sat you down and we're gonna have a talk and I said, Corinne, you're not gonna like what I have to say. And you're gonna kind of, you're gonna kind of, you're gonna kind of like ready yourself to be like, okay, like that's how your, your brain first is gonna say, okay. And then you're gonna deliver the, the pitch.

• 1:56:10Steven Rinella?

  I don't like your shoes.

• 1:56:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, whatever it is. So, but that's how it would say, um, so let's say we needed to break up or something. It'd say, look, Corinne, this is gonna, or I could put it on me.

• 1:56:23Speaker 00

  I'm having a hard time, I would put it as I don't like this conversation, or I've been really dreading this conversation. Something as simple as that, like showing a little bit of vulnerability of, I've really been dreading this conversation we're about to have, or I'm not gonna like this conversation, whatever that is. And then the next thing out of your mouth is, we need to, it's time we need to break up. Hmm. Blah, blah, blah. Or let's say you need to let them go. No, I just need some time. We just need to take some time. Slow things down. Yeah, that kind of stuff is, that can be painful. So instead of the, let's say if I need to fire you, you come in and say, this might come as a shock to you. I need to let you go.

• 1:57:07Speaker 00

  You've been, you've been a fantastic, now I'm giving the compliments. Just hit them right in the nuts. Yeah, yeah. Now, but see, now I'm giving the compliment. Like, now I'm giving the compliment of you've been a great part of the team. Loved having you. I'm looking forward to. After that. Yes. Now you're kind of like trying to show, because now it's genuine. Now it's genuine, instead of the. Off the hand. Yeah, instead of. Instead of you being nervous. Instead of you being nervous, instead of you saying, you're such a great part of the team, you know, we really, and now they're thinking, where's this going? Where's this going? When you lead with the. Like, I'm gonna get a raise. Exactly. Exactly. But everybody's always waiting for the but. They're waiting for the down. They're always thinking the worst. So if you lead with the, this is gonna be a difficult conversation. I need to let you go.

• 1:57:48Speaker 00

  You've been an awesome part of the team and I look forward to where you go in your career. It's just, it's just not gonna be here. I mean, that kind of thing is way more credibility. I like that. Or even if you lead with like, yeah, and I look forward to helping you, you know, move forward and wherever you're gonna be in your career. If you feel like this is somebody you really enjoyed, and you really do wish the best for them. Because it's, because then they'll start switching the conversation to where they go next. What happens next, rather than complaining about the present and saying, what's wrong with me? What could I have done better? You're saying the decision's been done. And even if I say, no, this is a me decision. So that that's um, that's kind of like the Yeah. What Ronnie was saying, it's Ronnie, right? Yeah.

• 1:58:32Speaker 00

  Of saying the, uh, this is, this is a, this is a me thing. Man, I wish I had some of the fire.

• 1:58:39Steven Rinella?

  Clean it up.

• 1:58:40Speaker 05

  He could have finessed it.

• 1:58:41Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, I could probably name somebody at noon here.

• 1:58:43Speaker 05

  Right now that doesn't subscribe to your Instagram channel.

• 1:58:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he could have finessed that a little.

• 1:58:48Steven Rinella?

  What, what, uh, what I'm picking up about what you're talking about, and I don't know if you frame it this way in your book, but a lot of it is, people think of conversations, a lot of times where they're living and they're trying to jump in the other person's head.

• 1:59:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:01Steven Rinella?

  But a lot of what you're saying would kind of, it, it almost makes it easier for the deliverer.

• 1:59:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:59:06Steven Rinella?

  Like, I could picture if you're dreading

• 1:59:08Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:09Steven Rinella?

  firing somebody.

• 1:59:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:59:11Steven Rinella?

  Right. It's terrible. Like, I've had to do it.

• 1:59:13Speaker 00

  It's the worst.

• 1:59:13Steven Rinella?

  It's terrible.

• 1:59:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:14Steven Rinella?

  If you just came and then you're doing the, well, how's this? How's that?

• 1:59:19Speaker 00

  It's, it's all for you.

• 1:59:20Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. If you just said like, you're, you're I have some bad, I have some, some bad news to deliver to you.

• 1:59:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:26Steven Rinella?

  All of a sudden, you're probably going, "Whew."

• 1:59:28Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:28Steven Rinella?

  Dude, I did it.

• 1:59:29Speaker 00

  Exactly. And then everything else becomes downhill easier because what you're doing when you're trying to lead with, uh, before you, because the whole conversation's bad news. And you're just putting a label on the whole thing. So if I were to sit down and you sit down and go, "I got bad news." Like, uh, my team, um, I have a very small team, but if anything's going on, what they do with me that I've asked for, they say, "You're not gonna like what I'm about to say." That's what they say. So I'll, I'll pick up the phone and the first thing they'll say is, "Jefferson, you're not gonna like what I have to say." Or you, they'll say, "You're not gonna like this." That's what they'll do. They'll say, they'll say, "You're not gonna like this." And I'll always go, "Okay, I'm ready." And whatever I'm thinking of is not as bad as what they say.

• 2:00:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:06Speaker 00

  I always think to the worst, like, possible scenarios. So that's a, when they pick up the phone and say, "You're not gonna like this," I go, "Ready?" Now, I mean, that's typically how I, I, um, I handle it. But yeah, any, it's, um, it's, it's much kinder on the other person. So in terms of, let's talk benefits, it's much kinder on the other person because they're not getting this, "Where are we going with this? I'm getting anxious." They feel the hammer being dropped.

• 2:00:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:28Speaker 00

  You're, you're getting straight to the point. So a lot of the ways that clarity is, is kindness, being direct can be a lot of a relief. And it's much better on you because instead of looking at this big hill, I gotta get over, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, use the front door. That's what it's there for.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  That's kind of a lot different than the duck blind bad collar thing.

• 2:00:48Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:00:49Speaker 02

  Cause you could use it on the bad collar too.

• 2:00:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  You're not gonna like what I have to say.

• 2:00:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, you could. Yeah, you could. You certainly could. You may not want to do that in the blind with them while you're trying to call, but yeah.

• 2:01:00Speaker 05

  The line in that scenario I've always used is now's not the time to practice.

• 2:01:04Speaker 00

  That's a great one. Yeah. That's a great one.

• 2:01:07Speaker 05

  Yeah. Today we're here to kill stuff, not practice.

• 2:01:10Steven Rinella?

  I want to hear with a very quick one. It's a life or death one. Muzzle control. Someone's practicing bad muzzle control.

• 2:01:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:01:16Steven Rinella?

  You just, right. How do you hit them? You just gotta hit them, right?

• 2:01:20Speaker 05

  Oh, you use the front door on that.

• 2:01:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a, um, I had a trial coach in law school. Uh, he would, the whole point would be instead of just trying to say things and help, hope the jury figures it out. He'd say, use the front door. That's what it's there for. And so, uh, it's that kind of mentality. When you're talking about life or death, when you're talking about, we could really injure somebody. You, you be direct as you can. There's no sugar coating. There's no, I really care so much about your feelings. This is, we're saving lives.

• 2:01:47Steven Rinella?

  It's not, you know, I love you, man.

• 2:01:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:48Steven Rinella?

  You know, I love hanging out with you.

• 2:01:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Steven Rinella?

  Uh-uh. Um, yeah, it's great to have you here, you know? But, uh,

• 2:01:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:56Steven Rinella?

  You know, sometimes I notice your muzzle laying at my forehead.

• 2:02:00Speaker 00

  Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

• 2:02:02Speaker 05

  It's currently aimed at my ankle. And I don't like that either, but.

• 2:02:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely some times for true conversation, but when you're out in the field like that, yeah, sometimes you just gotta, you gotta lay it out because it's, uh, it's either that or your ankle. It's kind of the, the Mandalorian.

• 2:02:20Steven Rinella?

  Who's got this one that's in purple right now?

• 2:02:23Speaker 05

  Do you ever run across trial attorneys where you're like, now's not, not the time to practice. Here, go get, go get yourself a coach.

• 2:02:29Speaker 00

  Uh, um, are you talking about like in trial and courtroom with the, um, I mean, typically not because you have like a first chair, a second chair. There's, there's kind of a hierarchy. Um, I.

• 2:02:42Speaker 00

  I like going to trials by myself at the table because I don't want the jury thinking that I have like a huge team. So I will only bring one paralegal and they'll sit in the back. I don't have like a whole and I carry my own boxes. I don't have the others have like a paralegal brings in like all their boxes and they're the ones that they think that they're like the talent. They have to sit at the table and everybody else bring them snacks and stuff. Anyway, uh, yeah, I, I probably, probably not, not in the trial sense, but there are times in it. Let's say in a deposition. They're like trying to slide you questions that you think you should ask. And, um, sometimes they're valuable, but I've had it where I've had like a very new associate where I read the first one and it was like an absolute horrible question. Like it was, I was like, absolutely not. I'm not gonna, because I know in my head,

• 2:03:28Speaker 00

  if I ask that, that's what's gonna happen. He just doesn't have that knowledge yet. So instead he might just pass it and without looking, I just pass it back.

• 2:03:36Speaker 00

  It's like, we'll talk about it in a break. Let me use as a teaching moment, but I like that your head's thinking. I like that you're, you're trying to, it's like that. I like that you're trying to practice. I like that you're trying to be part of what we're doing. Now's not the time.

• 2:03:49Steven Rinella?

  Let's, let's do one more. Cause it's a good one. Uh, Randall, you're, you're one about money.

• 2:03:53Speaker 04

  Oh, yes. Uh,

• 2:03:57Speaker 04

  you would like to spend or may have already spent an excessive amount of money on a trip or piece of gear. How do you rationalize it to your partner?

• 2:04:08Speaker 04

  Or to a friend?

• 2:04:09Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:04:10Speaker 04

  Like sometimes you have like a stupid purchase and people are like, wow, you spent money on that or whatever. I mean, I feel like this is a, one of the awkward conversations that that you run into. Now it's like, how do you build a case for something that is valuable to you, but maybe not to other people?

• 2:04:28Speaker 05

  Or yeah, sometimes you have like a friend and you know all about them and all of a sudden they show up with a brand new truck and you're like, God, I hope somebody died. Yeah. You can't have, you shouldn't be getting a new truck.

• 2:04:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's like the last thing they should be doing.

• 2:04:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. If you're talking about your relationship, when you pool your money and you gotta go buy something, you can't, you don't wanna, you just don't wanna be bothered trying to explain why you had to buy it.

• 2:04:49Speaker 05

  I don't know. If it's a big expense and you're, you're like springing it on them afterwards.

• 2:04:54Steven Rinella?

  Well, that's where we're here to ask the

• 2:04:55Speaker 06

  And to add context, we've, we polled our audience before 500 listeners.

• 2:04:59Speaker 00

  Oh, very cool.

• 2:05:00Speaker 06

  Asked a question, have you ever lied to a significant other about the price of gear? And it was over 70% of them have lied to a significant other.

• 2:05:07Speaker 00

  They probably lied on that, too.

• 2:05:09Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 2:05:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, probably like ninety bucks.

• 2:05:11Steven Rinella?

  I've obfuscated the price of beer.

• 2:05:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:15Speaker 04

  Rather than lie about.

• 2:05:17Speaker 00

  You were like massaging the truth. Yeah.

• 2:05:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:05:19Speaker 00

  I'll never say it was like, I'll be like, oh, it was about two hundred dollars. Two hundred and eighty-nine dollars.

• 2:05:29Speaker 00

  And you find like, I feel like, uh, the conversation's a little different when it's a spouse or a significant other versus just a buddy.

• 2:05:36Steven Rinella?

  You don't mean business partner.

• 2:05:37Speaker 04

  No, I mean partner.

• 2:05:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:40Speaker 05

  I was present at the, uh, the return of an item.

• 2:05:46Speaker 05

  That I had no interest in.

• 2:05:48Speaker 00

  Of Randall's?

• 2:05:48Speaker 05

  No, no, no.

• 2:05:49Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:05:49Speaker 05

  Of, uh, uh, my girlfriend.

• 2:05:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:05:52Speaker 05

  And, and we, we don't pool money.

• 2:05:55Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05:55Speaker 05

  But I, I started laughing and I was like, that's how much that cost?

• 2:06:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:02Speaker 05

  And, you know, it was a guy executing the exchange.

• 2:06:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:06:06Speaker 05

  And he's like, you didn't tell him about this?

• 2:06:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's hilarious.

• 2:06:11Speaker 05

  My girlfriend's like, it's not his money!

• 2:06:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:14Speaker 05

  You know, I mean, it was just a funny, funny thing.

• 2:06:18Speaker 00

  I mean, like, I, um, so what comes to mind for me is, yeah, if you're pooling money, there's a very big difference if you just all of a sudden show up with, you know, a thousand dollars worth of, uh, hunting, I feel like clothes are so expensive now, um, that you don't at least have that conversation about it. Now, to me, a lot of it is, it's none of their business. If it's a partner, um, I, I'm, I'm gonna want to have that conversation, if you can, beforehand.

• 2:06:47Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 2:06:48Speaker 00

  Unless you're, unless you're just, unless you're okay with having the fight about it later.

• 2:06:52Speaker 04

  I'm wondering how to set myself up for success in those types of conversations.

• 2:06:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:58Speaker 05

  Cause you come across a hot deal.

• 2:06:59Steven Rinella?

  He's trying to keep the relationship together.

• 2:07:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:02Steven Rinella?

  He's trying to keep the relationship together. You're trying to get what you want.

• 2:07:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't wanna say like, hey, I know this is really stupid, okay? But, there's this gun.

• 2:07:11Speaker 00

  You see how he did that? You see how he did that? I know this is really stupid, but.

• 2:07:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. See, that's, that's what I'm wondering. I mean, now I'm. My instincts, you've turned my head on all my instincts in these types of conversations where I'll over explain the benefits of going on said trip or purchasing said item.

• 2:07:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:29Speaker 04

  You know, how do we, how do we set ourselves up for success? I like, I like the idea of argue less, talk more, but I'd also like to win.

• 2:07:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:38Speaker 04

  You know.

• 2:07:38Steven Rinella?

  Buy more.

• 2:07:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm gonna tell you about a gun that I'd like. And we're gonna walk away from this conversation with you understanding that I should get this.

• 2:07:50Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, we're gonna walk away from this conversation with me owning that gun.

• 2:07:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:07:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:57Speaker 03

  I feel like that's probably not exactly what he teaches.

• 2:07:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a little different. It's slightly different.

• 2:08:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:08:02Speaker 00

  Like, I, I think there's also, um, what I have seen work is as, um, one is whether or not you give the permission to even buy the purchase. Because if you feel like you have to get permission, then then you feel like you have to hold court on whether it is or not worth your time, is it not worth your, and then you have to feel like you're over explaining. And then we get frustrated having to justify a world that they don't understand.

• 2:08:26Speaker 04

  Mm hmm, mm hmm.

• 2:08:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so instead of the, hey, so I'm hoping to buy, I would switch it to, I'm going to buy. Uh, and that sounds a lot more definite of, hey, I'm gonna go buy a rifle. Like, and also this is this element too of, um, and this applies to a lot of different contexts, but I say, when it comes to giving your case on something, don't, don't be a waterfall, be a well. Meaning instead of feeling like I have to anticipate all of your questions and I have to go ahead and fend off every arrow you're gonna send, shoot my way, and I have to just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which is only going to guarantee you're gonna get a lot more questions about it. Be a well, meaning they're gonna have to ask a question. You'd be very short. They're gonna have to ask a question.

• 2:09:11Speaker 00

  I do this with, um, in a depositions. So I train my witnesses to make the attorney ask the question. So don't just try and guess where they're going with their questioning. Don't try and give them more. The longer of an answer you give, you're guaranteed to get more questions, period. Uh, it's the same thing with asking, um, anybody for anything. So if you're just gonna say, hey, I'm going out to purchase this gun, need us for this whatever trip. Allow, don't try and anticipate the question, just allow them to, to ask.

• 2:09:43Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. What if you come in and you act like you're mad about it? Damn it, I gotta buy a brand new rifle.

• 2:09:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's probably a really good technique.

• 2:09:52Speaker 02

  Set it all on a get it sighted in.

• 2:09:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like, I gotta do this. Like, then you act like it's a big inconvenience.

• 2:10:00Steven Rinella?

  And they're like, oh, it'll be okay, sweet. Just pick a good one.

• 2:10:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's true. You can, you could, you could try and do that and get them on your side. No, go get you a good one. Don't try like, well, what if you just spent more?

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  And it's pre-sighted in. Does that exist?

• 2:10:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:17Speaker 06

  You could try crying, Randall, if that doesn't work.

• 2:10:19Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:20Speaker 02

  But what about?

• 2:10:21Speaker 00

  You have a kid with a cast?

• 2:10:22Speaker 02

  What about getting to the friends part? Like, do you even gotta justify that? Like?

• 2:10:26Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:10:27Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 2:10:27Speaker 02

  I mean, no.

• 2:10:29Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:10:29Speaker 02

  Like, I, yeah.

• 2:10:30Steven Rinella?

  No, I don't know. I just, I was just trying not to make it about my marriage.

• 2:10:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know? So what would happen, my grandfather would say this. Yeah, my grandfather would use this line. He'd say, it found its way to me. That's what he'd say. He'd go, I just, it's found its way to me. Like, that's, like, he just, he went out and bought way to many fishing rods or whatever it is, lures he didn't need. It's, I remember he came in with like a huge, he learned about like, ah, he could buy in bulk. And so we had these lures called sluggos. And, yeah, and so, and when they first came out, and he goes, first thing he said was, ah, they just, they found their way to me. You know, like, that's, that's what he would say.

• 2:11:07Steven Rinella?

  Lucky you.

• 2:11:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And we're like, oh, okay, all right.

• 2:11:10Steven Rinella?

  Everybody wrap it up. But, uh, everybody check out the next conversation. I'm gonna, I'm, I'm, you know how I said I didn't read it?

• 2:11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:16Steven Rinella?

  I'm gonna read it.

• 2:11:17Speaker 00

  Oh, awesome. Thanks, man.

• 2:11:18Steven Rinella?

  Like, I'm not lying. It sits on my bed, it sits on my stack.

• 2:11:20Speaker 03

  Everybody in the office should read that book.

• 2:11:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you, man.

• 2:11:23Speaker 02

  Or half the office.

• 2:11:25Steven Rinella?

  You're waiting behind, you're in line behind a book about Jaguars?

• 2:11:29Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 2:11:29Steven Rinella?

  And a book about Kate Buffalo.

• 2:11:31Speaker 00

  Oh, all right.

• 2:11:32Steven Rinella?

  Comes up.

• 2:11:32Speaker 00

  This, I'm honored.

• 2:11:33Steven Rinella?

  The next conversation, argue less, talk more, Jefferson Fisher.

• 2:11:37Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 2:11:37Steven Rinella?

  Yep, learn how to get all kind of permissions, all kind of guns.

• 2:11:41Speaker 00

  There you go. Looking for how to get on public land.

• 2:11:44Speaker 06

  I really respect Goodreads ratings. Your book has a 4.62. That's outstanding.

• 2:11:49Speaker 00

  Awesome.

• 2:11:50Speaker 06

  It's hard to find a book above 4.5, so.

• 2:11:52Steven Rinella?

  Really? Fantastic. Congratulations.

• 2:11:54Speaker 00

  Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

• 2:11:56Steven Rinella?

  Ladies and gentlemen, Jefferson Fisher, thanks for coming on.

• 2:11:58Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 2:11:58Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:12:26Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and

• 2:13:09Steven Rinella?

  years of use out of a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. The new Dual Threat Pro SD climber is the ultimate companion for both bow and rifle hunters, thanks to its adjustable dual-threat front bar. This innovative feature allows you to tailor the climber based on your preferred hunting method. So you can choose between two climbing modes and two hunting modes. So I like having something that's got this level of versatility. Get 20% off all tree stands by using the code MEATEATER at summitstands.com. That's a phenomenal deal. That's summitstands.com.

• 2:13:47Speaker 07

  A BetterHelp ad. I would like to formally request more storage space in my brain. Because somehow I can forget why I opened my laptop where I put my keys, or the name of someone I met 30 seconds ago. But I can remember an awkward conversation from six years ago in extraordinary detail. So if your brain came with a delete button, what would you use it on? Maybe it's that tough breakup you've analyzed from every possible angle, and irrational worry you know doesn't deserve this much attention. The conversation with your boss you keep rehearsing in the shower, or that one comment someone made that you're still thinking about weeks later. We don't always get to choose what sticks around in our heads. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that gives you space to talk about

• 2:14:32Speaker 07

  what's taking up too much of yours. BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. Visit betterhelp.com. Cost and coverage may vary.

• 2:14:47Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.