Could You Survive Medieval Childbirth?

Childbirth isn't for the faint-hearted at the best of times, let alone in the medieval period. What was a birthing room like at this time in history? Who would have been in there helping bring a new baby into the world? And how suspicious were the church of these all-women spaces? Joining Kate today is the always-fabulous Eleanor Janega, co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval, to take us back to this time and place. This episode was edited by Tom Delargy. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 1:54Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. But before we're allowed to go any further, and this is my idea, by the way, this is the lawyer's idea, but we have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults, to other adults about adult things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects that you should be an adult too. Right, do you feel safer? I feel safer, certainly the lawyer feels safer. Let's get on with it.

• 2:22Kate Lister?

  I know we've already had the fair do's warning, but think of this as an extra layer of protection, a second pair of underpants, if you will. We are talking about childbirth, so you need to be thinking of tearing vaginas, hemorrhaging, rupturing, all kinds of awfulness. But in the medieval period, so it's extra awful, okay? And it's not for the faint-hearted. I mean, not that childbirth ever was or is. But today, we are pushing through the pain, peeking under the linens and asking, what was childbirth like in the Middle Ages?

• 3:02Speaker 04

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• 3:05Speaker 06

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• 3:19Speaker 04

  Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

• 3:22Speaker 07

  Goodness, what beautiful time! Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.

• 3:30Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. While there is a lot of talk about the medicalisation of childbirth today, what was the scientific thinking behind giving birth in the Middle Ages? Who was in the room with you? What room would you be in? What role did the church play in all of this? Because you can bet your bottom dollar that they had something to say. And what role did women have to play in these spaces? How was the midwife viewed at the time? Well, joining me today is the one and only Eleanor Yanniger, co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval, and she is going to help us find out what it was like to give birth as a medieval woman. Hot towels and the ready Betwixters, let's do this.

• 4:19Kate Lister?

  Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheep. It's only Eleanor Yanagor. How are you doing?

• 4:25Speaker 08

  Uh, well, you know, anytime they let me out of the Gone Medieval Dungeon, I'm delighted. So I'm doing great, babes. Great.

• 4:31Kate Lister?

  Welcome back to the sunlight.

• 4:33Speaker 08

  Thank you. Wow, you've got some here. What's that like?

• 4:37Kate Lister?

  It's, oh, it's very nice. Yeah. In the, in the bright, the bright world.

• 4:43Kate Lister?

  But we're not here to talk about such nonsense. We are here to talk about different nonsense. Medieval midwives, childbirth, all kinds of scary things.

• 4:53Speaker 08

  Yeah. Look, I mean, the vibes are kind of not great.

• 4:57Kate Lister?

  Yeah. If you say, if you sneak up behind the average woman in the street and just went, medieval childbirth.

• 5:03Speaker 08

  Yeah. Oh, 100%.

• 5:05Kate Lister?

  Right?

• 5:05Speaker 08

  100%.

• 5:05Kate Lister?

  Doesn't have to be a medieval scholar or nothing.

• 5:08Speaker 08

  No, you know, we know.

• 5:10Kate Lister?

  We know. Things like, well, like even today, like my, one of my closest mates, Jen, recently had a baby and like, I was so supportive, but even I had moments when she was talking about things like vaginal tearing and stitching and episiotomies and just, and that's today, 2025.

• 5:31Speaker 08

  Yeah. You know, we have come a long way. And I mean, yeah, we're going to talk about medieval childbirth, but I'm going to be so real with you, babes. Like if it's before the 20th century, I'm not interested.

• 5:41Kate Lister?

  No, God, not interested.

• 5:42Speaker 08

  I'm not even interested now. You know, like this is the thing is like, all you gotta do is like, study historical childbirth and you're like, you know, I'm good.

• 5:50Kate Lister?

  Yep. No, no, it's really, it's a one-way system. That's all that's happening here. I just got, but there are plenty of people listening who have had babies.

• 5:59Speaker 08

  Yeah. And like, God bless you.

• 6:01Kate Lister?

  Well done. Thank you.

• 6:02Speaker 08

  Yeah. Thank you for your service, braver than the troops, et cetera. So yeah, like it is one of those things where if you consider how difficult and painful and frankly dangerous it still is.

• 6:12Kate Lister?

  Still is. I'm still scary.

• 6:14Speaker 08

  Yeah, very much so. You know, they're, all you have to do really is ask, you know, like what, what is your, your story from giving birth? And there's still.

• 6:20Kate Lister?

  Do you know what I've noticed? Every single mate I've had who's had a baby, when I've actually asked that question, what was the birth like? They can't remember. It's like Body like blocked out. It's like something, I don't know if there's some actual scientific research behind this, or if just all of my friends went for the drug option, but like they don't remember. And I think maybe that is some kind of, I'm off script now, but I think that might be some kind of evolutionary thing, because if you did actually remember what happened, if you actually

• 6:46Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 6:47Kate Lister?

  Well, I was in excruciating agony for 52 hours, Kate. That's how, well, you wouldn't do that again.

• 6:52Speaker 08

  Do you know what? It's conspiracy of silence, in my opinion.

• 6:55Kate Lister?

  I think it is.

• 6:55Speaker 08

  I think it's a conspiracy of silence. People don't talk about it because they don't want to put other people off. But, you know, that's the exact opposite of how medieval people are getting on with it, because medieval birth is so much more matter of fact.

• 7:07Kate Lister?

  Really?

• 7:08Speaker 08

  Yeah, because fundamentally, medieval people don't have privacy.

• 7:12Kate Lister?

  No, they don't. That's something I've learned from talking to you. That changed how I think about a lot of these people, the idea, the concept of privacy.

• 7:21Speaker 08

  You're not going to be going anywhere to have your child. You're going to be having your child at home.

• 7:27Kate Lister?

  There's no medieval maternity wards.

• 7:28Speaker 08

  No, and I mean, there are medieval hospitals, but the concept of the medieval hospital is super different to how it is now, where it's like, they're kind of like inns. They're run by, you know, monks and nuns.

• 7:40Kate Lister?

  Down the Pope.

• 7:40Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, fully, fully. It's like, you know, there might be someone like giving births, someone like, you know, dying of cancer. And then also you're like, oh, I just needed a place to stay. And then like some people, yeah, kind of having dinner.

• 7:51Kate Lister?

  Stuff to fabulous stuff already, right?

• 7:53Speaker 08

  Yeah, okay. Great. So, I mean, that's what's going to be happening for you. When you are having a child, you're going to be having this child in your own home, you are probably going to be attended by the women you know.

• 8:05Kate Lister?

  There has been research done, and I can't think of the proper title of it, that shows that home births, the more calm the surroundings, that actually that hyper-medicalized environment, although very safe and necessary, let's not put people off it, but actually being calmer in a home environment can reduce stress and shorten labour.

• 8:25Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is if you can like chill out.

• 8:28Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 08

  That's probably good.

• 8:29Kate Lister?

  Watch the telly.

• 8:30Speaker 08

  And, you know, so this is the thing is like, you know, probably your mum's gonna be there, maybe your mother-in-law, your sisters, and I mean, the midwife is gonna be there. And that, that's gonna be who looks after it. And it doesn't matter who you are. Like even if you are an incredibly wealthy queen, physicians don't really deal. With this stuff, you you basically have midwifery as a separate skill. Now, a physician might be called if something really wild goes down.

• 8:57Kate Lister?

  Like that scene in Robin Hood, Princess Thieves.

• 8:59Speaker 08

  Yeah, exactly. But you know, for the most part, it's just going to be women because this is very much considered a specialist occupation and it is one that is taken incredibly seriously. And now, to be to be fair, midwives do more than just deliver babies, but that is really the one where it's always going to be them.

• 9:17Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 9:17Speaker 08

  Who is doing it. So that's kind of cool. It's there's like the specific medical field for women.

• 9:22Kate Lister?

  Is it true that some nuns were midwives or some midwives were nuns?

• 9:26Speaker 08

  Yeah, absolutely, because the nuns are some of the women who are trained pretty extensively in medical care. So again, hospitals, it might just be like a nunnery's got beds. You know, very famously in Paris, the Hotel Dhu is run by nuns. And so like, there are all these nuns who will kind of like look in on you there. And so if you've got some expertise, you're going to be given more expertise. And this is also something that nuns can go do, you know, nuns are supposed to be enclosed. They're just supposed to be hanging out in their nunnery away from the world and not participating in society. But if you're going to attend a birth, this is considered like worthy and fine. And you know, Hildegard Bingen writes rather a lot about midwifery as well. So, you know, I mean, Hildegard Bingen writes a lot about a lot, so that's probably not a surprise.

• 10:08Speaker 08

  She's just like the the infinite monkeys. She's just got like, she probably, I don't know.

• 10:12Kate Lister?

  She's just the kind of person, she would just deliver several babies in between composing symphonies and

• 10:17Speaker 08

  Exactly.

• 10:18Kate Lister?

  Recording her visions and whatever the fuck else she was doing that day.

• 10:21Speaker 08

  God bless her, yeah.

• 10:21Kate Lister?

  God bless that woman. I know what you're gonna tell me now. This is because this is women's history. No fucker has bothered to write it down. Was there training for this? How would you get into being a midwife? It's quite specialist now. You can't just rock up and go, I am a midwife.

• 10:37Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, the thing is, you're going to need a reputation and you are probably going to train in a sort of apprentice kind of manner. And yeah, you're right, we don't have a whole lot on this because it's like lady stuff. No, thank you. Oh, gross. You know, that kind of a deal.

• 10:53Kate Lister?

  Call us when it's baptized.

• 10:54Speaker 08

  Yeah, exactly. And so we do know, though, that these women form a backbone of their community. They show up in tax records. You know, we find these midwives who are working in different places around the shop. And they are, yes, delivering babies, but they're also doing generalized healthcare for the community. Right? So this is going to be the woman that you go see when you got a cough. Right? The midwife is going to be called. You're not getting a physician, like especially if, I don't know, you live in rural Scotland.

• 11:21Kate Lister?

  It's like a wise woman type.

• 11:22Speaker 08

  Yeah, it is.

• 11:24Kate Lister?

  Wise woman, yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like, yo, like, if you are a trained physician, like, say you went to the school at Slernow, whereas there's like one. Like, you didn't go there so that you could be like, oh, I can't wait to practice rural medicine.

• 11:37Kate Lister?

  No.

• 11:37Speaker 08

  In like Northumbria. No, that's not.

• 11:40Kate Lister?

  And those people wouldn't have been able to afford something like that anyway.

• 11:42Speaker 08

  No. So it's like you go, you do that and then you go to court.

• 11:45Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 11:45Speaker 08

  Or you hang out in a city where there's a lot of rich merchants and that's who you attend to. So the great majority of medical help that is happening is by people like midwives. And also frankly, you want a midwife so much more than you want as a physician because yeah, here's the thing about medieval medicine. It's not real.

• 12:06Kate Lister?

  No, it's mad.

• 12:07Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 12:08Kate Lister?

  Properly mental.

• 12:09Speaker 08

  Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, like, and now this is like the proviso that I always say, it's not just medieval people. You know, they were getting it from the Romans and the Greeks. And like, it basically, it takes until the 19th century for any medicine to be like workable.

• 12:21Kate Lister?

  And even now today, you have to remember that advice changes all the time.

• 12:24Speaker 08

  Mm hmm.

• 12:25Kate Lister?

  All the time.

• 12:26Speaker 08

  Absolutely. You know, like, all you gotta do is like, think about diets. Like, how many times have we gone back and forth on whether or not you should be eating eggs? Right? You know, like, and these things are constantly going on, right?

• 12:35Kate Lister?

  I was watching a sitcom from the seventies over the weekend, The Good Life, and it was interesting to, at the top, top tier.

• 12:41Speaker 08

  Top, yes.

• 12:42Kate Lister?

  But it was interesting just to watch. That was in 1975 and it's so weird watching it of how much things have changed. And there was an episode where Tom does his back in and the advice is to lie completely immobile on the floor. And that's exact opposite now.

• 12:55Speaker 08

  Yeah, they're like move around.

• 12:56Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 08

  Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, and exactly. So that is also kind of like the difference between if you've got medicine, like physicians are learning at universities, that is going to be a lot more rigid. Because it's going to be a lot more, oh, well, let us go back and see what Hippocrates wrote about this. Like, let us go back to the ancients because there's this great reverence for classical medicine and an idea that that must be better. Whereas if you're going to a midwife in your village, she's gonna be like, this works real good.

• 13:25Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 08

  You know, I know, I know that if you. Boil up willow bark and you drink it, it's going to help your headache. You know, I know that L. Camphane seems to help to treat lung afflictions. You know, these are things that you see work.

• 13:42Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 08

  And yeah, you'll be taught this by whoever it is you're apprenticing with and whoever it is you're working alongside. But these are also things that you might be tinkering with around the joint. And you know, you as a midwife are going to need to know how to do things like stitch things up. And so that is going to be, I know. But that's in great, you know, demand, you know, being able to do stitches is being able to do stitches. That's great. See, these women are really kind of like the front line of what healthcare is in the medieval period. And every day of the week, I would rather have one of them than like some court physician who's going to be like.

• 14:15Kate Lister?

  Doubt.

• 14:16Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:17Kate Lister?

  Without, I just think it would have been the kind of thing that like was passed down families. Like you do it because your mother did it and you could.

• 14:23Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:24Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah. And that's a super, super common. It's really common for there to be just like a family of people who do this, so.

• 14:36Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

• 14:52Kate Lister?

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• 16:15Speaker 09

  After civil war, regicide and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned. But Britain would never be the same.

• 16:25Speaker 09

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• 17:32Kate Lister?

  So I'm trying to think like actually of the birthing experience. It sucked. It sucked. I mean, but like, all the people listening to this that have had babies, and if you ask your friends who've had babies, all this stuff, just talk to them about their birth, if they remember it, and all the things that happened that if it wasn't for modern medicine, would have been fucking nightmare. My mate Sam split from fucking keel to stern.

• 17:58Speaker 08

  Oh, God, yeah, like, I'm one of four because my parents are idiots. I love you, Mom and Dad, thank you. But like, all of us either tried to kill our mother or almost died, like, all of us. And if it was the medieval period, she would have just been.

• 18:11Kate Lister?

  Been gone.

• 18:11Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, my sister was breach, my mother's blood wouldn't clot with me, my older, younger brother, umbilical cord around the neck, my youngest brother, 11 pounds, 3 ounces.

• 18:24Kate Lister?

  Holy moly.

• 18:25Speaker 08

  Which is, you know, we're a big family.

• 18:27Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 18:28Speaker 08

  So, yeah, like, all of this. So, you know, if you just kind of consider how difficult and dangerous it is now, it's even more at the time, right? But the thing is, they were super matter of fact about it.

• 18:41Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 18:41Speaker 08

  Because I think one of the big differences between like today and then is everyone goes, oh, sweetie, it's fine. Actually, it's the most natural thing in the world.

• 18:49Kate Lister?

  Well.

• 18:50Speaker 08

  It's so beautiful. Yeah, I mean, it's like, let's just make it beautiful, honey, right? And I think that now we really tend to downplay the dangers of childbirth because, you know, I, I'm, yeah, we're trying not to freak women out. But like, I don't know, you could use a little bit of being freaked out, right? Like, I mean, there's, there is, you know, don't freak people out. And there's like, also, let's be reasonable.

• 19:11Kate Lister?

  Surprise them.

• 19:12Speaker 08

  Yeah, like, this is, I think that a lot of people are kind of surprised when they get there, and it's like, dangerous and horrifying, and you almost die.

• 19:19Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 08

  You know? And so medieval people are like, yeah, no, it's bad, right? Okay, so there's this particular medieval document that I love, that is called A Letter on Virginity, or the Halle Midvet, or like, don't get mad at me, my Middle English is rubbish, okay? And it is a specific work that is like, girl, do not get married. Like, dedicate your life to Christ. And it's talking very specifically about like, all of the shock and horror of what goes along with being a wife and mother. And they're like, you think you want to bang? And you do, but you're gonna get knocked up and then you're gonna have to give birth. And it goes into detail being like, pregnancy sucks. It sucks in his ass. And you're going to want to puke the whole time and you're still gonna have to be plowing the field.

• 20:03Speaker 08

  And your useless husband is still gonna be like, where's dinner? And you're still gonna have like, do all of these things, even though you feel awful. And then you're gonna give birth and it's going to be awful. It's even if you survive, which is a pretty big if, I mean, we're talking about kind of like a 50 50 chance at the time. You know, even if you survive that, they're like, and then you're left with a kid. And then you gotta look after it. And then, you know, it's gonna disappoint you someday by like, being a weird little slut. And, you know, it's gonna grow up to be just like you.

• 20:35Kate Lister?

  So just don't do it.

• 20:36Speaker 08

  Don't do it. Right. And so this is like a specific thing where it just goes on and on and on. And it's like, and do you understand what it's like when your water breaks? Like, do you understand what it's like when like you're?

• 20:47Kate Lister?

  A woman who'd had a baby.

• 20:48Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, well, either that or who had been around it enough. And she's like, like, do you get that, like, you are going to soil yourself in front of everyone while you're giving birth? Do you get that? Do you understand that it's gonna like, tear you apart? Do you, is that something that you understand? It's not just a cute little baby at the end. This is a really visceral process and they were a lot more upfront about that. And now granted, this is a hundred percent a tract that is like antinatalist. They're like, don't, don't have children. And, you know, a lot of religious works are like, you shouldn't be doing that. Like, you know, the ideal medieval Christian is a virgin, right? I think it's Saint Jerome says that like, he praises the office of marriage because it gives him virgins.

• 21:30Speaker 08

  Or it's like, well, you people messed up, but like more virgins might be born. And then, I know, he's the worst.

• 21:35Kate Lister?

  He's just such a tool.

• 21:37Speaker 08

  I know. Well, you know, he's like, his kink is beating himself with rocks instead of beating off. And, you know, I'm not gonna kink shame.

• 21:44Kate Lister?

  Well, I am. He's a tool. But the thing is, I want to be careful that we don't like completely stigmatize childbirth in the Middle Ages. Because quite obviously, they managed it. We're all the walking, living, breathing proof. That some people at least, and quite a lot of people successfully gave birth. What was their process like? I mean, would you have had a medieval birthing plan? Would you have had like a medieval birthing pool or one of those bowls to bounce on?

• 22:12Speaker 08

  I mean, usually one of the big things that you have is a chair.

• 22:15Kate Lister?

  Oh, a chair?

• 22:16Speaker 08

  Yeah. So like a chair is like a birthing chair is a really big thing.

• 22:19Kate Lister?

  Is that good or bad? Like, is that like a mad thing that they had that they thought was good?

• 22:23Speaker 08

  I think it's actually pretty good because like one of the things that we're kind of learning now, for example, is that like the laying down thing isn't necessarily great. Because their idea was like, yo, you want to use gravity.

• 22:35Kate Lister?

  Gravity.

• 22:35Speaker 08

  In your favor. So it's kind of like, so if you sit up, if you can like get on this chair and you know, you're not always going to want to get on the chair because you're going to be in like great pain. But if you can sit up and get on the chair, then that gravity is going to help draw the baby down along with the contractions.

• 22:49Kate Lister?

  We need midwives and gynecologists to email into the show just to let us know if that, if the chair was a bad idea or a good idea.

• 22:58Speaker 08

  And that, yeah, and they.

• 22:59Kate Lister?

  Gravity sounds, that sounds sensible to me.

• 23:02Speaker 08

  Birthing pool, not so much, just because, I mean, like granted, you could fill up the tub with, with water, but like it's probably going to cool down and then you're going to have to keep replacing it. And it's eventually gonna, it's, it's gonna get, yeah. And when you're carrying water the whole time.

• 23:17Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:18Speaker 08

  Water's really annoying.

• 23:19Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 08

  Now, you might end up just giving birth in bed. That's super common as well, you know? That's a big place to do it because you're so uncomfortable. You're like, no, I will not stand up. Thank you. No, not going to happen. But as a general rule, you're going to be giving birth in your own home and like someone's going to go get the midwife. That's what's going to happen. Like, you know, your mother-in-law or your sister or whoever is going to look after you. And then someone's going to go run, get the midwife, and then she's going to come in and take over. And what that means can be, you know, anything, you know, you could have a relatively straightforward birth and she is just going to be like, yeah, great job, girl. Like rub your back, you know, kind of a deal.

• 23:59Speaker 08

  There are other things that can happen. So for example, we know that, you know, in order to avoid vaginal tearing, for example, they will like oil you up. Like that's a, that's a big thing that kind of happens is like the hope that this is going to like prevent tears from happening. They will be keeping an eye on the baby, like in case it is, uh, you know, breached or something like that. And, you know, they'll get in there and just kind of try to manipulate it, move it around if it's gone into the wrong position. So that's something that they are super clear on. But for the most part, this is kind of an at home deal where we're just going to see what we see.

• 24:31Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 24:32Speaker 08

  Once we get there, right?

• 24:33Kate Lister?

  Did they do that lying in thing? Or was that a rich person? Yeah. Like when, you know, when you shut themselves away in like a little room with no windows or lighting, lots of incense?

• 24:44Speaker 08

  Peasants girls ain't got no room.

• 24:46Kate Lister?

  No, there's no time.

• 24:48Speaker 08

  No, they've just got, peasant girls live in one room, uh, which like sometimes in the winter, there's a cow at one end.

• 24:54Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 24:54Speaker 08

  Right? You know, like a, granted, they're in like a little stall thing. It's not like in the same room, you know, but everybody lives in one big room for the most part. So no, I mean, like you'll probably lay down for a couple of days just because of, you know, the trauma. Uh, but they're not, it's not going to be that whole like lying in, we cover up all the windows, here's some incense, da, da, da. That's for queens, you know, that's for ladies. It's not for your average individual, uh, who is just going to have to be in their house in the best way that they can be, frankly.

• 25:24Kate Lister?

  Confinement. That was the word I was looking for. That sounds fucking awful, by the way.

• 25:28Speaker 08

  Yeah. Oh, I mean, I wouldn't recommend it. I don't think, you know, and, and this is the thing that confinement is a really interesting one because that lasts for ages as an idea. Yeah. I mean, it's, Jesus, it's, it's such a difficult thing, medical history, because like basically absolutely nothing worked until we figured out germs exist. But they were still doing all this weird stuff anyway. And you're like, yeah, it's not till the 19th century that any of this gets better, right?

• 25:50Kate Lister?

  Just lie there in a bed for like a month, maybe more, waiting for this thing to kick off.

• 25:56Speaker 08

  And they're like, please don't get postpartum depression. Have fun.

• 26:01Kate Lister?

  Why would nuns make good midwives?

• 26:04Speaker 08

  Well, nuns make good midwives because in the first place, they are dedicated to serving their communities. They are the sort of people who can sit around and read the texts in order to learn about these things. And also in cases of extremis, where you have a baby who's been born, but it's not looking good and they very well may die, which is incredibly common. You know, let us keep in mind that until we invent vaccines, 50% of all children are going to die before they are the age of two. And it's incredibly common with newborns for them to die. And so you would be happy to have a nun because a nun in this case is authorized to perform baptism.

• 26:41Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's handy.

• 26:42Speaker 08

  Yeah, so.

• 26:43Kate Lister?

  Wait, no, that sounds like a bigger deal than I thought that was then because only priests were allowed to do.

• 26:48Speaker 08

  Yeah, ordinarily, yeah. And you have some cases where when stuff gets really bad, so like, for example, during the Black Death, they'll be like, if you can't get a priest, just get a Christian and then they can do these things. And then if you can't find a Christian, man, I guess a woman could do it. Like if someone is dying, you can hear someone's last confession, you know, like you can go find a woman. But here is a case where they're like, well, yeah, it's more likely that you're gonna have a nun around than it is to like, go fetch a priest. And then if you've got to go fetch a priest, then then you're also wasting time. And everybody agrees it's really important to get the baby baptized so that they don't end up in purgatory.

• 27:28Speaker 08

  So, you know, that is something that it's a rare example of where women get to have a little bit more spiritual power, uh, specifically in the birthing room.

• 27:39Kate Lister?

  So are the nuns trained in, I guess, not just push and breathe, but surgery as well, like Caesarians?

• 27:46Speaker 08

  Caesarians, this is the big thing, right? And so let's keep in mind that a Caesarian at the time, you know, like again, up until essentially like the 20th century, you do Caesarians when it's like, she ain't gonna make it, right? Like, like it's over for wifey. Like she is probably already, she's gonna be dead, like she's dead. And you're like, okay, we've got to get to this baby. And odds are, baby's also going to die. That's what the odds are. But what you want to do is make sure it gets baptized. So you get in there to get the baby to make sure that it is baptized so that it goes to heaven. So that is when someone would perform a Caesarian section. And again, this is something that's really handy to have a nun who is trained up here

• 28:28Speaker 08

  because she can cut you open and she can also do the baptism really quickly. And because odds are the baby, if it's got to this incredibly difficult situation, odds are the baby is going to die as well. But we're still thinking about the pastoral needs of the baby, and this is as much a form of. Healthcare as is seen to the corporeal needs of either the mother or child.

• 28:53Kate Lister?

  Cause it was almost certain death, wasn't it?

• 28:55Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:55Kate Lister?

  You wouldn't, you wouldn't do that unless you knew it was absolute curtains. And even then you'd probably still be holding out hoping it would, it would be okay.

• 29:03Speaker 08

  Yeah. I mean, like fundamentally, this doesn't happen unless mom's dead. And we're worried because the baby's too far in and there's like no amount of like gravity that's gonna get them out.

• 29:12Kate Lister?

  It's grim, isn't it?

• 29:13Speaker 08

  It's grim. Don't you love having me on?

• 29:15Kate Lister?

  Oh, so would this have been primarily a woman only space then?

• 29:21Speaker 08

  I mean, for the most part, this is one of these circumstances where we just see a lot of chicks rocking. You know, like you are probably gonna have like your husband toddle along once or twice in certain occasions. But for the most part, they're like, get out of here. Go take the other kids and go to your dad's house or something like that, right? Like go make yourself useful. And so that is something that certainly would exist now, probably especially for poorer families. So it's gonna be a little bit less of that. But this is a kind of time and place where women are hanging out around other women. And like, that is who the crowd is.

• 29:57Kate Lister?

  From what you're saying, it sounds like midwives are, well, they're quite important people. So I'm assuming that they were very widely respected and, and given a lot of kudos in the community and, and not accused of being witches at any point.

• 30:09Speaker 08

  Now, I want to be clear that medieval people really don't do that.

• 30:12Kate Lister?

  Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot.

• 30:13Speaker 08

  Early modern problem, anti early modern action.

• 30:17Kate Lister?

  Sorry.

• 30:17Speaker 08

  So yeah, but this is.

• 30:18Kate Lister?

  Slipping there into that myth.

• 30:20Speaker 08

  And this is a really important one though, because we do see when we hit the early modern period, we do see that more midwives end up getting persecuted as witches. But there's a very specific thing here, right?

• 30:33Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 30:34Speaker 08

  Whereas it's not just any midwife, like midwives exist the, the entire time, like across the early modern period. Midwives are still around.

• 30:41Kate Lister?

  Periodically executing all the midwives.

• 30:43Speaker 08

  Yeah. You know who you periodically execute? The midwives who do abortions.

• 30:49Kate Lister?

  Ooh.

• 30:50Speaker 08

  Because medieval people are a lot more chill on the whole abortion front. Medieval people are like, well, so true, bestie. Like, you do be having to have abortions from now and then. And medieval church way chiller about abortions than you would think. They're basically like, yo, it's a freebie up to three months.

• 31:05Kate Lister?

  Yeah, they had this idea about the quickening.

• 31:07Speaker 08

  Yeah, and they're like, don't get me wrong, they're not like, yes, I love abortions. That's, that's my favorite thing, you know, but they are like, look, fundamentally, we know things happen. You might have too many children. And what they see as probable in circumstances where people cannot feed their children, which is a real concern at the time, is infanticide. And they see that as a probable outcome because it is probable. Because infanticide is incredibly high when you can't access, you know, abortion services. And so a lot of midwives are like, also, this is a thing that I do. And that is usually a kind of intervention that is like, for example, drinking penny royalty.

• 31:50Kate Lister?

  Yeah, and am I right in thinking that like the quickening around about three months, that was when they thought that the soul?

• 31:56Speaker 08

  The soul enters.

• 31:57Kate Lister?

  Enters, so up until that point, it's like, it's, it's not a Christian, there's no soul.

• 32:02Speaker 08

  No.

• 32:02Kate Lister?

  Whatever you do doesn't count. But after that, then things.

• 32:05Speaker 08

  Then things got, and it's like, from there, like, it, it kind of like goes up and up and up. I mean, like, not that women are really usually attempting to like abort pregnancies after six months, but it's like, it would get worse and worse and worse. Right?

• 32:18Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 08

  In terms of what penance is. But penance is usually like surprisingly light for the first three months. And they're just like, yeah, please don't kill babies. That would be cool. Like, you know, just get an abortion, it'll be fine. That changes after we invent Protestants, because Protestants and Catholics are like, I'm the holy one, no, you're not holy, I'm holy, no. And then they're like, you, you would do abortions? No, I wouldn't, you would, no, I bet you, that sounds like something you would do. And then they're like, so it turns into like the spiritual arms race.

• 32:49Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 32:49Speaker 08

  Or slap fight, you know, kind of thing. And so then everyone goes, no abortions, that is it.

• 32:54Kate Lister?

  Ruined it.

• 32:55Speaker 08

  Yeah, exactly. And so then you go after the midwives who are doing abortions. And that is very specifically.

• 33:03Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 33:04Speaker 08

  The group of midwives who are persecuted is the ones doing abortion services.

• 33:14Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

• 33:32Kate Lister?

  Hello Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that.

• 34:01Kate Lister?

  Right, let's get on with it.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Would you believe us if we told you there was a podcast that was haunted? Well, there is. It's called Two Girls, One Ghost. We didn't want to believe it at first, but we can no longer ignore it. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. We're talking ghosts caught on camera. Demonic possessions. Cursed mirrors. Bigfoot. Poltergeists. Exorcisms. Near-death experiences. Unsolved mysteries. Missing persons. Each week we explore the deepest, darkest, spookiest places in the world. Tune in to Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. Listen at your own risk.

• 34:49Kate Lister?

  Have we got any texts left to us by any... Were midwives able to write? Was there any man that wanted to write for a midwife? We have any textual evidence, any medieval version of call a midwife?

• 35:02Speaker 08

  I mean, the number one, it's it's gonna be your girl Trotta Salerno and the Trotula, right? And now granted, we think that she very well may have been an actual physician. She very well may have been educated at Salerno, but she writes this OBGYN treaties, which tells you very expressly how they're like, well, this is what you do about a breached baby. This is what you do about tearing. This is how you care for mothers afterwards. And it goes really step by step about what it is you're supposed to do. And this is, you know, the equivalent of a medieval bestseller. This survives Justin absolutely tons of copies. I mean, after the original text gets written, that tells you all these important OBGYN things. Then later on, they're like, and here's how you curl your hair.

• 35:45Speaker 08

  And like people like add to it and they're like, yeah, this is the eminent midwife was also like, here's how you make lipstick, like, yeah, sure, bro.

• 35:52Kate Lister?

  It was different people.

• 35:53Speaker 08

  Yeah, different people, but it it kind of travels together. It's like, here is the one stop shop for ladies and things that you'll need to do. So it's interesting because there is also with this, we kind of see, there's kind of an understanding that like women are gonna need to know a little bit about what's due generally, because you're gonna be at somebody's birth at some point in time, helping out. And you can't lay it all at the feet of the midwife.

• 36:17Kate Lister?

  Do we have anything in the records about women, what hampers them, their bodies after they? Because sometimes you read some records of how many births somebody's had. It's not super duper common, but like I've come across women, wasn't medieval, it was 18th century. And she'd had 34 children.

• 36:36Speaker 08

  You get into some clown car situations pretty quickly.

• 36:39Kate Lister?

  And you just think like, what did that do? Like even if, even if she didn't require stitches, like, but how could you not? Like what that must have done to her body?

• 36:48Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, we certainly, it's not uncommon to see women who've had like, you know, 13 kids, 16 kids. You know, like this sort of thing like that is very, very common. And I mean, I think the thing that sort of happens there is that your body does to an extent, get used to it where it's like, oh, we're doing this again, right? You're gonna have less tearing, you know? And if you are the sort of person who has been like really maimed by the situation, you might not be the sort of person who gets pregnant good. You know, you might be like, yeah, that's cool that Jesus says we need to do that. Absolutely not. We are not ejaculating inside of anything. Right? Like, so you, there are ways of doing, getting around that, right?

• 37:30Kate Lister?

  I often think like, because this, this is not a history that's, that's written down because, and it's still something that people struggle to talk about today. Actually, I don't think it's spoken about nearly enough is the vaginal damage and the internal damage that can be done. I mean, they must have been like incontinent and tears and fistulas and all kinds of internal injuries.

• 37:52Speaker 08

  Oh yeah, absolutely. And I mean, one of the things that we have really good records on from the medieval period that they do a lot of surgery on is very specifically fistulas.

• 38:00Kate Lister?

  Oh, wow.

• 38:00Speaker 08

  So like fistula and ano, the one where you kind of like get a fistula through to your anus, which is super common as a result of problematic pregnancies. That's one of the first things where everyone is like, we need to sit down and write up how you deal with this. So there are surgical practices very specifically to address that. But yeah, absolutely. And it is though, as you say, the sort of thing that you just don't talk about, right? Like it's a, well, the first place it's happening to women. So is it happening? I don't, I didn't hear anything, you know, right? So you wouldn't talk about that. In the second place, you know, it's kind of like private stuff. So you're not necessarily going to talk about it. And then in the third place, it's so common that it doesn't even necessarily require talking about, right?

• 38:40Speaker 08

  You know, now for us in the global north, that would be a lot more of an anomaly and something that you would talk about. But you know, it's still something that is a real problem for women in the global south, for example. So like access to really good healthcare around birth is still incredibly limited by where you live.

• 39:00Kate Lister?

  So as a final question then, when did things start to shift that birth became increasingly medicalized? And I don't want to be, you know, a crusty person being like, yeah, we should all be at home on a lily pad and being worshiped. I think that, I think that actually medical intervention is a good thing, but also there is an argument, so that we do. Overly medicalize this. And now the idea that you just go into hospital to have a baby, that that's the done thing. But when did it stop being like Betty up the road that you'd just go and get?

• 39:31Speaker 08

  That's an enlightenment issue. So, you know, with the enlightenment, everyone is like, we're doing science now, guys. It's it's science time.

• 39:39Kate Lister?

  Stand back, ladies.

• 39:39Speaker 08

  It was not science. You know, like, for like, until the 19th century, it's like, you're still just doing like, you know, humoral theory with more steps. But one of these things that we begin to see, especially at the end of the Middle Ages, is an increasing professionalization of physicians in particular. So whereas before you could be like, I spent a couple of weeks at Salerno and I'm a physician now, or whatever, that begins to get tightened up. And so kings will say, for example, you can't call yourself a physician unless you have a degree from a university.

• 40:11Kate Lister?

  Fair.

• 40:12Speaker 08

  So that means that women increasingly do not have access.

• 40:17Kate Lister?

  Unfair.

• 40:18Speaker 08

  Yeah. Now, it still happens. You know, we'll still see like women, for example, we've got women on record in Paris, for example, who are basically suing to say like, look, I'm trained, let me in. I should be able to say that I'm a physician, that kind of thing.

• 40:31Kate Lister?

  Something you wrote about in your book?

• 40:32Speaker 08

  Yes, my book, The Ones in Future Sex, we treat this in my chapter on, you know, women's roles in society. So, you know, like what it means to be a wife and mother, you know? So, yeah, absolutely.

• 40:43Kate Lister?

  But they were trained.

• 40:44Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah, absolutely trained. And when we know this, and when we've got their names, right? But this becomes increasingly untenable as you hit the Enlightenment, where, you know, the universities really become much larger. And then suddenly universities begin giving medical degrees. So, right, like you and I, as the correct kind of doctor, the original kind of doctor, like, you know, like, a doctor originally met someone who had a PhD, and physicians were physicians.

• 41:09Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 41:09Speaker 08

  And then you kind of start seeing later, especially kind of like 18th century, 19th century, physicians are now suddenly called doctor, whereas they were not previously.

• 41:18Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 41:18Speaker 08

  And so when all of this comes in, that's when we see women increasingly excluded. And then, like, especially in kind of like the 19th century, 20th century, then it's going to be like, More doctors, doctors, doctors, doctors, doctors. So particularly in the kind of post-war period in the global north, it's much more going to be like you go to hospital, you see a doctor. There isn't really going to be a midwife so much. And that can vary from place to place. So that's certainly more true, for example, in the States than it is here. And you know, Call the Midwife is a great program for a reason, you know.

• 41:50Kate Lister?

  And it's a great book, actually. I read the book of that before it came out and it was fascinating.

• 41:54Speaker 08

  Yeah, brilliant stuff. So, you know, midwives certainly always existed along those lines. But, you know, we just kind of have changed our ways of thinking about what birth is. And, you know, who is an expert.

• 42:07Kate Lister?

  Eleanor, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. It's been absolutely horrifying.

• 42:11Speaker 08

  Well, you know, I aim to horrify.

• 42:19Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. Coming up, we have the first in our new mini-series exploring sex work throughout history, and we are starting with ancient Rome. This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Would you believe us if we told you there was a podcast that was haunted? Well, there is. It's called Two Girls, One Ghost. We didn't want to believe it at first, but we can no longer ignore it. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. We're talking ghosts caught on camera. Demonic possessions. Cursed mirrors. Bigfoot. Poltergeists. Exorcisms. Near-death experiences. Unsolved mysteries. Missing persons. Each week, we explore the deepest, darkest, spookiest places in the world. Tune in to Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. Listen at your own risk.