How to grow an internet audience in 2025

Join me as I chat with Dr. Tyler Lemco, known for co-founding Epic Mealtime (600M+ views), where we discuss strategies for building an internet audience from scratch. The conversation covers practical advice for content creators, including bio optimization, platform selection, and content strategy. We explore the balance between algorithmic success and authentic content creation, while emphasizing the importance of starting small and scaling gradually. Episode Timestamps: • 00:00 - Intro • 01:54 - Transitioning from Creative for Hire to Solopreneur • 07:29 - AI as a Thinking Partner • 09:03 - How to position yourself within your niche • 14:22 - Crafting a Compelling Bio • 26:28 - YouTube Growth Strategies • 41:30 - AI Tools for Content Production Key Points: • Transitioning from being a creative-for-hire to building your own audience • Framework for effective content creation and social media growth • Importance of platform focus and consistency in content creation • Strategy for building audience before community before product Content Strategy Framework: 1. Pick a platform to focus on 2. Identify what you love doing 3. Study what algorithms favor 4. Find gaps in your niche 5. Commit to consistency Platform-Specific Insights: • YouTube Shorts: Good for subscriber growth, lower monetization • Long-form content: Best for overall revenue and engagement • Live streams: Excellent for community building, poor for new audience growth Key Takeaways: • Start fresh when pivoting content direction • Focus on audience building before community development • Test and iterate content strategy • Be willing to experiment publicly • Utilize AI tools like Descript for content production 1) The Creative-for-Hire Trap • Good money but no equity upside • Easy to get stuck helping others win • Key is transitioning to building YOUR OWN assets • Start small, think big 2) Framework for Content That Works: • Pick ONE platform to focus on (seriously) • Do what you genuinely love creating • Study what algorithms reward • Fill gaps in your niche • Commit to consistency 3) The YouTube Revenue Reality: • Shorts: 3M views = $418 (+12k subs) • Long-form: 1.3M views = $13,580 • Livestreams: 100k views = $1,926 Strategy: Use shorts for growth, long-form for revenue 4) The ABC Growth Framework: A) Build an Audience first B) Convert to Community C) Create Products/Services Don't try all at once. Master each phase! 5) Social Bio Formula: • Show Credibility • Create Intrigue • Clear Value Prop Pro tip: Write for non-followers, not existing ones 6) Starting Fresh vs Legacy Account: • 94 engaged followers is better than 31,000 dead ones • Algorithm favors engagement % • Don't let ego stop you from starting over • Fresh start = clean slate 7) Content Market Fit Truth: • Takes 6-24 months to find • Must experiment publicly • Embrace the uncomfortable • Better to ship than perfect Bonus: For creators starting out - just START. You figure it out by doing, not planning. The only difference between launching and not launching is deciding you've launched. Notable Quotes: "The goal of every solopreneur should be to not be a solopreneur." - Greg "The only difference between launching and not launching is deciding that you've launched." - Tyler Lemco Want more free ideas? I collect the best ideas from the pod and give them to you for free in a database. Most of them cost $0 to start (my fav) Get access: https://www.gregisenberg.com/30startupideas LCA helps Fortune 500s and fast-growing startups build their future - from Warner Music to Fortnite to Dropbox. We turn 'what if' into reality with AI, apps, and next-gen products https://latecheckout.agency/ BoringAds — ads agency that will build you profitable ad campaigns http://boringads.com/ BoringMarketing — SEO agency and tools to get your organic customers http://boringmarketing.com/ Startup Empire - a membership for builders who want to build cash-flowing businesses [https://www.startupempire.co](https://www.startupempire.co/) FIND ME ON SOCIAL X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregisenberg Instagram: https://instagram.com/gregisenberg/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisenberg/ FIND TYLER ON SOCIAL Tyler’s Website: https://www.tlem.co/ X/Twitter: https://x.com/tlemco YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/tlemco

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Isenberg?

  Super special episode, How to Build an Internet Audience with my main man, Dr. Tyler Lemco. You might have seen him. He helped build something called Epic Mealtime. 600 million views, almost 7 million subscribers. The guy knows how to go viral and has gone and built a lot of things since then. And he actually, he's starting a new social account. And he's starting it from scratch. And he was asking me some questions about different platforms, how to go viral, which AI tools to use. And I said, stop right there. Let's just get you on the pod.

• 0:41Greg Isenberg?

  We're going to do it publicly. This is going to be Dr. Tyler Lemco asking me questions about how to build an internet audience and maybe me even asking him some questions. So let's see where this goes. Welcome.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Greg. I'm excited.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Should I ask my first question?

• 1:21Greg Isenberg?

  I don't see why not.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  So I'll give your audience a little bit of context. Thank you for the introduction. Like you said, I've been working on a lot of, for all intents and purposes, successful projects for a decade and a half now. I've very much so been a creative for hire. And I keep seeing success everywhere I keep getting hired. But now I'm at a point where I really want to shift into do it for myself mode. I've done it so many times for so many different verticals, but it's always for somebody else. So my first question is, I know you're big on like the solopreneur route.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  For someone who's kind of at the beginning stages of that journey, two parter, do you have any advice on that shift? And two, do you have anything that I should be like aware of or cognizant of? Things that I should look out for starting this solo journey?

• 2:21Greg Isenberg?

  So, I mean, I'm going to answer this just like as if this was like a phone call between us. Cause I think a lot of people are in the same boat as you. The beauty about being a creative for hire or anything for hire, doing an agency even, is the cash flow is really good. You can make like a good income just by helping other people achieve what they want.

• 2:49Greg Isenberg?

  But in like, you know, we don't have to go into details, but I know some projects that you've worked on that have been household brands in terms of like building social audiences for. And you, you, you didn't have upside, meaning you didn't have equity upside in them. And that sucks. And we've talked about that before, like offline. So I'm really excited that you're taking the mental leap in 2025 to actually go and invest in yourself. And actually go and build, you know, build accounts and build projects for yourself.

• 3:29Greg Isenberg?

  I think that, uh, I don't want to sugarcoat it. Like it's, it's a lot harder to build for yourself than it is with other people. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Tyler, you're like, you're building something yourself, right? So you're, you're starting something with basically, you know, like it's give, you know, tell me, tell me what assets do you have? In starting what you're building.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Just to give a bit more context, like for a long time I was hired role to role to be a creative to write this party game or this movie or this show or whatever. And I would have the task at hand that I needed to accomplish and I was successful at that. And then most recently I've kind of evolved into managing projects. So hiring people and getting help and kind of overseeing like a team, which has been a really interesting kind of pivot because I see the value of like managing other talented people in collaboration. So a fear of mine in this solopreneur pivot is

• 4:36Speaker 01

  now doing everything alone. So yeah, the I'm sort of I'm sort of handling everything.

• 4:45Greg Isenberg?

  And why do you think you have that fear? Like, what about it scares you?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Hmm, I think having it's nice to have the infrastructure of delegating and having other talent around you, not to mention most of the projects that I've been hired for, I'm given a budget to work with. Whereas now, not only am I alone, but I'm kind of doing it on like my own bank account that's ever dwindling each day. So yeah, it's sort of, there's also the part of like being the creative and the producer as well as the manager and the boss that it's tough to wear all those hats.

• 5:27Greg Isenberg?

  My advice to you would be crawl, walk, run. Like, my advice to you would be, you know, for for your new project, and we can talk about what you're doing, just using it as an example, like, what is the smallest version of what that product looks like and that project looks like? And how do you slowly expand so that from from there? So it isn't super daunting? So you want to like, essentially, have a really big vision for what you want to build as like a solopreneur. And then eventually, like, I actually think that the goal of every solopreneur should be to not be a solopreneur. Like, I actually think that just doing things

• 6:06Greg Isenberg?

  on your own is like, super lonely. And you're you're every everything is dependent on you. And that's, that's not very, that to me, doesn't seem like a freeing life.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  And I'm also not like great at everything like I would love to delegate a bunch of the tasks, even the creative ones to people who are better at it.

• 6:28Greg Isenberg?

  Quick break in the pod to tell you a little bit about Startup Empire. So Startup Empire is my private membership where it's a bunch of people like me, like you, who want to build out their startup ideas. Now they're looking for content to help accelerate that. They're looking for potential co-founders. They're looking for tutorials from people like me to come in and tell them, how do you do email marketing? How do you build an audience? How do you go viral on Twitter? All these different things. That's exactly what Startup Empire is. And it's for people who want to start a startup but are looking for ideas, or it's for people who have a startup, but just they're not seeing the traction that

• 7:12Greg Isenberg?

  they need. So you can check out the link to startupempire.co in the description. And it's fun to work with people, right? Like, it's fun to like, I'm one of those people that I need someone to like jam ideas with, you know?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  So Quick question, since this is like AI is a big theme on your pod. How do you feel about jamming ideas with the robots versus like a human being? How do you compare and contrast?

• 7:45Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, listen, there's no, there's no, there's nothing like some flesh and bones, am I right? But, but, you know, having said that, I think sometimes I actually find before chatting with a person, I actually like to like flesh out my ideas with, let's say, a Claude AI or a ChatGPT. Because it helps me clarify, it does the same thing that writing does for me. Like when I write, when I write something, I find that I clarify my ideas. When I, when I have a thinking partner, like a ChatGPT or Claude, I clarify my ideas. So I don't think it replaces jamming with a person, but I do think it enhances jamming with a person.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Interesting, because I find that's, we'll get into more like AI tools and stuff, but I find as someone who really doesn't utilize much at all, the only thing that I really use AI for is jamming ideas, because I find it'll offer a different perspective or take on something that I might not have thought of. And yes, I always have to like, then make it good per se. But I do find it really helpful with just thinking in other directions than I've been thinking.

• 9:01Greg Isenberg?

  So, tell people a little bit about what you're trying to do and what your goal is, from an internet audience perspective, I would say.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Okay, good question. So, I, as you could probably tell, I'm an artist, but I'm not trying to like, push myself or really be an artist. I'm more so trying to create a community. I know that's kind of like a hot button term to use. But yeah, I'm trying to create a community around the concept of making art and being weird and silly and letting that flow and feel good. Which is something I actually wanted to talk to you about, because I find a lot of your, like, if people are gonna watch your podcast, you're

• 9:54Speaker 01

  pointing them in the direction where they can make money. I'm not offering you're gonna make money, but what I can offer is you're gonna enjoy yourself and you might even be happier. So I kinda wanted to pick your brain today a little bit about ways to market that better. How to position myself as like, here's what my offer is, is get weird and be happy.

• 10:20Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, so firstly, we should start by saying that your goal right now isn't to make money, but you eventually want to create a sustainable business out of it that frees you, right?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:31Greg Isenberg?

  And, yeah.

• 10:38Greg Isenberg?

  And, I think...

• 10:42Greg Isenberg?

  What you're doing is smart right now, which is you're creating like a podcast and YouTube and Twitter content and IG content as like your minimal viable product, your MVP, to basically create a lot of value. And the idea is, you know, after you've created value, then you'll be able to monetize it in a bunch of different ways. So I want to say first and foremost that you like you made you you didn't fall into the trap around building an audience and building a product at the same time. So that's dope. That's number one. It's number one, just because like going back to like you're on your own or you have

• 11:26Greg Isenberg?

  a small team, you're going to be able to figure out what you what these people want better and you're going to have customers at the door, ready to go, once you have an audience.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, I'm sort of taking the approach of message first.

• 11:41Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. So I think whether you're like ultimately, if you're trying to make money quick, or you're trying to get weird, you still have what you're still trying to do to someone who is a stranger on the internet is to convert them into a raving fan. Right? Like, it doesn't make a difference if you're you're trying to get them to scroll stop whatever they're doing on whatever platform to engage with whatever product. In this case, it's social content. And you're trying to get them to be like, wow, this is really good. At the very least, they read it or watch it.

• 12:23Greg Isenberg?

  Hopefully, they like it and comment on it. And at the very best, they're liking, they're reading it, they're liking, they're commenting, and they're sharing it with others. So for you, I would try to think about how do you like, how do you convince people that, you know, being weird or getting creative is valuable to their everyday lives?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I spend a lot of time thinking about that, like how to position the offer, the way, how does a calm app market meditation? I think it's the same kind of value, like I'm trying to get people engaged with their own creative practice so that they can see the benefits of it for themselves.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's an odd thing to market that I haven't really cracked that part of it yet. How do you position it to an audience to be like, hey, come check this thing out? And like you said, there's the, the worst case and best case. I think even beyond best, best case is how do I get people engaged with themselves? How do I get them actively making stuff?

• 13:30Greg Isenberg?

  So I'm on your, you know, for people listening on audio, I'm on, I'm on your Twitter account. And I'm reading, I want to, I want to break down your, your Twitter account and see if we can like rework it.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's bad. It's bad. Also, for anyone watching, like, I'm very much in the experimenting in public kind of phase. I don't have like a strong ecosystem built just yet. It's still very much at the beginning and we're figuring it out.

• 13:56Greg Isenberg?

  Totally. And thanks. So, and thank you for like sharing with us all.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 14:02Greg Isenberg?

  So, um, your bio, purveyor of Dr. Lemco's Creative Club, instigator of creativity. Not bad, not bad. I really love your banner, like I'm intrigued by Dr. Lemco's Creative Club. I just don't know what it is and why I need it. So I think that, first of all, the mistake a lot of people make around Twitter bios or Instagram bios is they focus it on people who follow them already, not followers. Sorry, people who follow them already, not non-followers. Your, your bio is for people who land are not following you. And your goal is to convert as many people from not followers to followers that are

• 14:46Greg Isenberg?

  in your ICP, that are in your ideal customer profile. So maybe a better, you know, just here, let me open up a doc. Okay, so, and I, I encourage everyone to do this with their own bio. So this is.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  No, I encourage everyone to do it for me.

• 15:08Greg Isenberg?

  This is T. Lemco. So.

• 15:12Greg Isenberg?

  This is your old one. You can say something. I think that bio needs a few things. It needs, so let's just come up with a framework for X or social bios. So it needs credibility, it needs intrigue, and it needs a value proposition. So when I look at your bio right now, I don't see you've worked with these brands before. Like, I know you've worked with Playboy and Epic Mealtime and stuff like that, you know, founding team of Epic Mealtime and all these things. Like, you've generated like a billion plus views, if not more. So I don't

• 15:53Greg Isenberg?

  see that. I do see, I am intrigued, and I don't see a value proposition. So I'd give you one on three. So let's think of how we could write this in a more three on three way. So maybe I help people become their most creative selves.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 16:20Greg Isenberg?

  Could you, and we'll workshop this together. Like, what's, and I know you're a humble Canadian, so in the least humble way possible, how can you describe the most, you know, the, a sentence that invokes the most amount of credibility? What would you say?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  I can't just say like, creative genius.

• 16:40Greg Isenberg?

  No, you can't say, you can't say creative genius, because anyone could say creative genius.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, double clicking on that, are you talking about like, specific credits, or like, the resume?

• 16:53Greg Isenberg?

  Yes, yes. I'm talking about, what is something that you have done in your career that relates to being creative, that tells me that you're credible, and that I should follow you?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  In a sentence. It's interesting, because I actually had this kind of similar practice, writing my bio for my website recently, and I sent it to a friend, because it had all these accolades and things I've done. But my friend was like, none of this has to do with what you're doing, though. And it's interesting to, this pivot is kind of a blank slate, fresh start, because it's a whole different lane. So to put it into a sentence, what makes me credible?

• 17:37Greg Isenberg?

  Or you can say something like behind, okay, behind YouTube channels that have generated one billion plus views.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Over a billion views for sure on, on all the things I've made.

• 17:52Greg Isenberg?

  I'm the guy behind YouTube channels I've generated. I'm the creative genius.

• 18:02Greg Isenberg?

  Using your words.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 18:06Greg Isenberg?

  In quotation marks, behind YouTube channels I've generated a billion views. Follow to become more creative.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  And do you think pitching it as get more creative is more valuable than like, I've kind of been toying with the idea of trying to like, position it around happiness, but that feels like a more distant, but a better sell, if that makes sense.

• 18:33Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. Yeah. So I see what you're saying here. So you're saying,

• 18:39Greg Isenberg?

  realistically, if you become, if you become more creative, you'll become more happy, right?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if you engage with your creativity more, it's a, it's a recipe for happiness.

• 18:52Greg Isenberg?

  Okay.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  You don't necessarily need to be like better at art or making stuff. You just need to like, enjoy doing it and letting it, uh, like let yourself be free with it. I think that's the key.

• 19:05Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, you can allude to it, I would say in your bio. It's too much to like, you don't want to be convincing people in your bio. You know what I mean?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:14Greg Isenberg?

  Uh, again, it's like, it's, it's a game of getting people to follow you. So I think,

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:20Greg Isenberg?

  when I look at this. Yeah, go ahead.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  When it comes to the like pitching happiness, I think there's a lot of, uh, like a lot of it boils down to just like, showing it, like being a happy guy, enjoying what I'm doing. That's the, that attracts more than anything.

• 19:37Greg Isenberg?

  I agree. I agree. So when I look at this bio, I, I see credibility, one billion views. I see intrigue. I want to be happier. And I'm, and I, and I see, uh,

• 19:52Greg Isenberg?

  Well, intriguing. Also, I help people become their most creative selves. Like, how? How do you do that? Is it creative self? Or selves?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Um, their most creative selves.

• 20:05Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, so I think that works.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 20:09Greg Isenberg?

  And by the way, you can throw this in. Claude.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 20:20Greg Isenberg?

  You know, here's the prop. I'm

• 20:25Greg Isenberg?

  writing a new bio, but want it to have

• 20:32Greg Isenberg?

  a strong value proposition. Intriguing and credible. That's the framework that really works. Here's what I got so far. Give me 10 ideas. Based on that, this is for my friend Tyler Lemco. I'll give you some context on him soon.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Is it worth putting in that I would? Like if it's for my bio, I would want it to be somewhat like lighthearted slash.

• 21:13Greg Isenberg?

  Oh, yes.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Like not too professional looking. You know me, I try to avoid being too grown up.

• 21:20Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, so that's a good point. I mean,

• 21:23Greg Isenberg?

  include, I want to make this lighthearted and fun because that's the type of guy Tyler is and doesn't take himself too seriously.

• 21:42Greg Isenberg?

  And I, and I'll like, do you have a bio I can use?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you want to go to my website, there's a bio.

• 21:50Greg Isenberg?

  Okay.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  But again, it's not, like I said before, I feel like it doesn't really encapsulate what I'm currently doing. It more talks, not even that, go down to about, about me.

• 22:04Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, it's all good. This will give you a sense of like what who you are. I just throw it in. It's really ugly and let's see what happens.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Cool. I've never used Claude. I don't know.

• 22:15Greg Isenberg?

  This is actually pretty good. Professional silly person and viral video architect. I turned what if into why not? And help creators do the same. I once convinced, I once convinced The Rock.

• 22:28Greg Isenberg?

  Uh, that I'm a real doctor. Montreal's foremost expert in creative shenanigans. Mom approved cotton only. I don't know if that's true.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  I mean, my mom does love it, but yeah, I don't know.

• 22:40Greg Isenberg?

  Um, so I would, I would be a creative partner with this and just start adding this to your, to this Google Doc. By the way, I know that there's someone listening to this who is going to be like, oh, that's great for Tyler that he has like credibility with a billion views. I don't have a billion views. I'm starting from scratch. I'm listening to this podcast because you guys said it was about starting from scratch. And there is something that you have done that is impressive to someone and credible. I don't care. There, I don't care who you are.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  And you could do it. As the guy with a billion views, I'm starting from scratch. Like there's nothing, I'm not building on anything. If anything, I'm losing followers constantly because any audience I currently have either knows me as the bacon guy or the interviews porn stars guy. And no one's like, oh, this is the happy creative guy. So I'm, I feel like I'm starting at a deficit if anything.

• 23:39Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, to be honest, if I were you, I'd start a new account.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought about it, but you can't change a YouTube URL. So I wanted to keep all the handles the same.

• 23:51Greg Isenberg?

  The problem with, with the problem you're facing is. Even if you have a lot, you have, you know, you have 31,000 followers. These are old followers.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Exactly. It used to be 60. It used to be 60K.

• 24:04Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. So when you post something, these people are not engaging with it. And then it just suppresses you in the algorithm. It's better to have like literally 94 followers than to have 31,000, but have those 94 people super engaged.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  So do you think I should start from scratch?

• 24:23Greg Isenberg?

  I would start from scratch. There's no question in my mind. It sucks. It's like an ego hit too, right? Because if I, if I look at like, you know, 400 impressions, 300 impressions,

• 24:37Greg Isenberg?

  300 impressions, 389, 300.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  My Twitter's weak.

• 24:41Greg Isenberg?

  Weak. And, and it could be like, that's

• 24:47Greg Isenberg?

  the beauty about X right now is there's, there's accounts getting millions of views that have hundreds of followers that don't have hundreds of thousands.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:56Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. Like sometimes I see, like I see accounts, I have a lot of followers, like 423,000. I see accounts like time and time again that are,

• 25:08Greg Isenberg?

  that are getting like more impressions and some of my stuff.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that's true for most platforms, like even on YouTube, views matter so much more than subscribers. And yes, there is a correlation, but not, it's not like a 100% correlation. There's a lot of accounts with low subscriber numbers that do view numbers like crazy.

• 25:35Greg Isenberg?

  Quick ad break. Let me tell you about a business I invested in. It's called boringmarketing.com. So a few years ago, I met this group of people that were some of the best SEO experts in the world. They were behind getting some of the biggest companies found on Google. And the secret sauce is they've got a set of technology and AI that could help you outrank your competition. So for my own businesses, I wanted that. I didn't want to have to rely on Mark Zuckerberg. I didn't want to depend on ads to drive customers to my businesses. I wanted to rank high in Google. That's why I like SEO and that's why I use boringmarketing.com. And that's why I invested in it.

• 26:18Greg Isenberg?

  They're so confident in their approach that they offer a 30 day sprint with 100% money back guarantee. Who does that nowadays? So check it out. Highly recommend boringmarketing.com. Do you want to talk about, you know, YouTube and how to grow on YouTube?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Yes, please.

• 26:36Greg Isenberg?

  What, uh, cause I know, you know, you just created that new account. Like what, what, what questions do you have for me?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Okay, so I've done, I've been in this game for about like five weeks now. And I've been doing two things to start. Again, I'm just laying a foundation. So this is how I'm getting started. I'm doing a weekly live stream where I'm not talking. I'm just putting on some funky music to make art to. And you could watch along while I make some art or you can make your own stuff. I'm kind of just trying to create a space for people to show up and engage with their own creativity. And then I'm also producing a podcast where I'm interviewing different artists and art professionals. And art therapists have been some of my favorite conversations.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  I'm currently at a point like as of right now, where I kind of want to pivot away from the interviews and produce more of a show. You know me, I'm a big fan of, I love like children's shows and the structure of them. And I think I could really hit that out of the park, doing that format, but silly and weird kind of for an adult audience. It's a departure from what I've been doing, which is very set in reality, asking tangible questions, pivoting more towards like a produced program. Is that advisable? Is that dumb? Is, what, what's your take on that?

• 27:59Greg Isenberg?

  Well, you remember how we started off this conversation? We were talking about what is like the smallest version of your idea, you know? And one hand, I think, on one hand, I think it's great that you're testing new formats. So like the fact that you are doing a live stream, the fact that you are testing a lot of different things. But what worries me is.

• 28:22Greg Isenberg?

  It's I just think to me, it sounds exhausting, honestly, like to me, it sounds too much.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  I get what you're saying. I find that the interviewing stuff is exhausting. Like, we've talked about it before. The booking guests and then the people don't show up and people reschedule. And I also find personally, when I'm interviewing someone, it's less, I'm embodying less the character that I want to put out there online. I have a clear idea of who I want to, you know, like, present myself as. And I think when it's kind of more scripted, or at least not scripted to the word, but like formatted, and I can edit it around a bit, then I could be more intentional about what I'm putting out there.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Also, I think like, in this day and age, what I'm aiming for is I think you could be Jim Henson without leaving your home. You don't need a production studio and a whole staff and a crazy budget. Like, I could literally stand right here and create the next Sesame Street, or The Muppets, or Mr. Dress Up, or whatever it is. Just smoke some more weed. But yeah, that's sort of where my head's at is I think, at least, maybe it's just personally, because that's where my skill set lies, but making shorter form, trying to keep it to like, give or take 15 minutes,

• 29:52Speaker 01

  and producing something with a little more, yeah, like prep to it, and pre-production and post-production. It does feel like more work, but it feels like it's more in my wheelhouse and more intentional for what my goals are.

• 30:08Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, this is, this is great. I want to, I want to workshop this with you a little bit. So, let's come up with a framework for content that works for me and everyone else. Because there's, there's, you know, both are equally important, right? So.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  And it's something that we talk about often because I find there's a real tightrope walk between doing the best practices of what's going to work and what goes viral. And there, there really is structures and systems to figuring out this game, but also keeping it like somewhat unique and interesting and, and personal.

• 30:49Greg Isenberg?

  Totally.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  It's very, it's a very fine line to tiptoe, but doable.

• 30:55Greg Isenberg?

  So, uh, framework for content that works for me and everyone else. What do I love doing? You mentioned, uh, you love like more scripted video.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like when I could think about it in advance and then go make it.

• 31:14Greg Isenberg?

  Right.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Same with like, same with, I'm as an artist, I'm not the kind of guy who loves to just get a blank canvas and start throwing stuff on it. I like to think about what I want to see exist and then I have a lot of fulfillment in creating that in reality.

• 31:30Greg Isenberg?

  That's interesting because I'm the complete opposite. Like.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  It's why we're friends.

• 31:36Greg Isenberg?

  We, we've done no preparation for this, uh, at all, right? Like I thrive in like the uncertainty and the, I, I just love the rawness of just jamming live and that, and that to me has been fun. I did scripted stuff and I wanted to blow my brains out, literally. So.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. A little, a little inside baseball. This is happening because Greg had a cancellation. It was like, what are you doing?

• 32:03Greg Isenberg?

  Exactly. What are you doing in 20 minutes?

• 32:07Greg Isenberg?

  Okay. This I think is important. So what are the algorithm gods love? Right? So, well, actually before we do anything, we should pick a platform to focus on. So for you, I think it's, what do you focus on YouTube, I would say?

• 32:27Speaker 01

  I think, I think YouTube and then from the YouTube content, I can cut, uh, clips.

• 32:33Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. But your, your primary is YouTube.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah.

• 32:37Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. I think it's important to have a focus X, YouTube, LinkedIn. And then from that you could always have, uh, content exhaust that you can repackage.

• 32:51Greg Isenberg?

  So, okay. And then what are the algorithms, algorithm God's love? I think this is just being honest with yourself or ourselves and being like, okay, what's, what's working right now?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:03Greg Isenberg?

  So.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  I also.

• 33:05Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  I, I find that a lot of, at least in the art niche, I've done a major deep dive into that community. And what I find fascinating is the thing that works the most is twofold. One is like people telling you how to start your own channel and monetize it, which kind of is derivative from an art channel. And then majority is like how to stuff. Here's how to paint this or draw that, which unfortunately or fortunately I don't have, like, I'm not an art teacher. I'm more a come hang out with me and have fun kind of guy. So I don't have that to offer of like, here's the value. You're going to learn how to do portraits or you're going to learn shading from me.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  You're not. So that's why my positioning, I'm thinking like, if I can make the most fun entertaining thing.

• 34:00Greg Isenberg?

  Right.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  That's where I know I can thrive.

• 34:04Greg Isenberg?

  So I think that's interesting. So I added this to what is missing from my super niche. Niche would be like art, your super niche would be like entertainment art.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Edutainment, yeah.

• 34:17Greg Isenberg?

  Edutainment art and stuff like that. And like, what is missing from there is like, you know, it might be like long form. You know, really fun.

• 34:30Greg Isenberg?

  Art sessions with cool people. I, I'm making this up, but like, uh, I think that the framework for content that works is probably a mix of these four things. Pick a platform to focus on.

• 34:42Greg Isenberg?

  And actually focus on it. Like, don't, don't just say you're focusing on YouTube and then like, spend like 50% of your time like on Instagram and stuff like that.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  And you've, you've turned me into like an analytics nerd. I'm checking the numbers every day.

• 34:57Greg Isenberg?

  Exactly. Be an analytics nerd for sure.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:01Greg Isenberg?

  Two, what do I love doing? So being honest with yourself. This is a practice in being honest with yourself. What your unfair advantages are.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  And you're out there that, yeah. Something that you're gonna like be excited to make.

• 35:19Greg Isenberg?

  Exactly.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:21Greg Isenberg?

  Exactly. What are the algorithm gods love right now? And this is just studying what's going viral, like being a student of virality. What is missing from my super niche? If you do this and you're consistent, and then I think the act, you know, can I commit to being consistent?

• 35:47Greg Isenberg?

  And what does consistency mean? So on Twitter, on X, that means you should be posting one to two times per day. On YouTube, that means you should be posting one times per, per week. If you're doing long form, if you're doing short form, that means you're doing three to four times a week. So I think that you could have all this stuff nailed. Pick a platform. What do I love doing? What are the algorithms gods love right now? What is missing from my super niche? But unable to be consistent. And then I would say, well, there's something wrong. You have to rework it. Maybe you can't focus on YouTube or you could only focus on Instagram, for example.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  What's your feelings towards like an off platform community? I've been toying with that idea of still producing weekly content on YouTube, but taking the live art hang to a Zoom thing and maybe an email list.

• 36:41Greg Isenberg?

  I think that.

• 36:45Greg Isenberg?

  You bring up a good point, which is like, really, what's the goal, right? So I think like, you know, the goal of what you're trying to do is to gain a, like you said in the beginning, gain a community of people interested in what you're doing.

• 37:00Greg Isenberg?

  I actually think your goal was to build an audience first and then build a community.

• 37:05Greg Isenberg?

  I have this framework, we talk a lot about in the pod called, you know, build an audience, convert that audience to a community or a portion of them, and then go and build a product for that community. So you're, you're, you're, you're in the audience phase, right? You're, you're, you should be just focused on building top of the funnel, get interest, attract as many people who are interested into edutainment for art creativity as possible. And then, once you have that, then you can figure out off platform, Patreon, private communities like school, Facebook groups, whatever. And then from that, you can create a product. And by the way, when I say product, that could be the service too.

• 37:46Greg Isenberg?

  It could be event series or, or whatever, just something that monetizes that. But I think that the mistake a lot of people make is they're kind of trying to do ACP all at the same time, but it's really meant to do one at a time. So I think for you, I think about what is a realistic goal for YouTube, if that's the platform.

• 38:08Greg Isenberg?

  And that's like, could I do 100 subs a day?

• 38:14Greg Isenberg?

  You know, by March 1st?

• 38:17Greg Isenberg?

  That's the, you know, and, and, and then being, and then kind of working backwards. And then, yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, reverse engineering it from the goal.

• 38:29Greg Isenberg?

  I want to, I want to cover one last thing about on, on this topic. I saw a really good tweet by Matt Wolf that I want to share with you. I would have shared with, shared you, I would have shared this with you privately. So he goes, I've been testing a lot on YouTube. Last year I did a lot of shorts, a lot of blog forums and live streams. These screenshots show actual numbers of the best performers. A short that did 3 million views earned $418, while a long form did 1.3 million views earned $13,580, and a live stream with less than 100,000 views earned $1,926. You'd think shorts are a waste of time based on earnings.

• 39:14Greg Isenberg?

  However, the one short gained 12,200 new subscribers for me, and the video only took 20 minutes to create. Livestreams, on the other hand, really seem to stink at growing a new audience. However, it brings those, it brings together those that are most interested in what you do, meaning longer watch times, more super chats, and the ability to really bond with the community. So this was, by the way, when you were talking about livestreams, I'm like, "Yeah, you should totally do livestreams." But you're not at the C phase yet. You're at the A phase. I'm finding that long form video that really hits will do the most for a channel across all metrics. However, a strategy that leverages long form shorts and livestreams creates a nice balance between audience growth, building bonds, strong bonds with an audience,

• 39:59Greg Isenberg?

  and making decent income from videos. Then he shows exactly how much he makes and what it looks like on the analytics.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, my approach to the shorts is that's kind of the kindling for the fire.

• 40:13Greg Isenberg?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  That's what, that's what really catches, but isn't like the, the moneymaker. How do you feel about all the new YouTube features, though? There's like community stuff now, and there's a timeline, and you can post update, like text and photo. I think that the thing with YouTube is the more you use their platform and their tools, the more you get rewarded for it, or am I wrong?

• 40:36Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. I mean, it goes back to what are the algorithm gods love? The algorithm gods will always love you trying new features for, for the platform. So I think that if you have the bandwidth, it's, it's great to test. And then I think that, like, someone should create this, like, someone... Maybe it exists already, but like an AI agent or similar that basically takes your content, or even a SaaS tool that basically takes your content from Twitter and just automatically posts it to YouTube community and stuff like that. I would say it's like, it's what the

• 41:18Greg Isenberg?

  algorithm's gods like, so test it. But if you don't have the time, I wouldn't, again, I would focus on the bread and butter.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, not a priority.

• 41:27Greg Isenberg?

  We gotta head out.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:30Greg Isenberg?

  You got one more, though? One last one?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  I guess my last question, and we could brush over it quickly, but like I said before, I'm not a huge AI tool guy. Do you have any recommendations for AI or just digital tools that would really help me as a content producer and a content marketer?

• 41:54Greg Isenberg?

  Have you been playing with Descript at all?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:58Greg Isenberg?

  I'm gonna pull it up. So Descript is the AI-powered, fully-featured, end-to-end video editor that you already know how to use. By the way, I'm not like involved in this company or whatever. It just, you know, we use the product.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Promo code SIP.

• 42:14Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, it will work, you know?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, to get 0% off.

• 42:19Greg Isenberg?

  Exactly. To be unable to check out and get 0% off. So I think it's really good at like, exactly this. I just said the word like, remove filler words automatically, studio sound, create automatic clips, translations. That itself, like putting your content in different language could be the difference between like getting product-market fit and not have product-market fit.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Interesting question for you. And I know we're wrapping things up, but I've been toying with the idea, if I do pivot away from these interviews towards more like pre-produced edited content, like a show, what are your thoughts on just going and making it like for kids? I know like the kid, YouTube kids, and there's all these like kids-specific platforms where I feel like it's a smaller pool to play in.

• 43:13Greg Isenberg?

  Dude, there's, I don't know if it's because I'm a new father, but like, I was reading a baby book about like a dolphin or whatever, like a baby dolphin. And like, I was like, who wrote this? You know, like, this is, this is, this is like, did a baby dolphin write this book? And, you know, so the, the bar to, to great children's content is shockingly low. Uh, and that, and that extends itself to YouTube and stuff like that, but the market is shockingly big.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Right?

• 43:47Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. So I think it, you know, it really, I, I, I put that one back to you, which is like, you know, what do you love? What do you want to be doing? Like, does that excite you? Is, is he, is, is it to be the next Mr. Rogers that excites you? Well, if that's the case, like, probably have to like clean up like all this scary art behind you. You know what I mean?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:10Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, uh, it's interesting. That's, it's, that's literally, you bring up Mr. Rogers. He started his show because he saw a landscape of children's programming that he thought was bad and he wanted to improve it. It's, it's an interesting route.

• 44:30Greg Isenberg?

  I think the cool thing about starting a startup with, by starting as, as an audience or starting with a social account is you could create a separate channel with two videos and just test it out and see how you feel.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. What, how do you feel about experimenting in public? Cause I feel like I'm in that phase and it's causing a lot of, uh, I don't want to say insecurity, but like it's uncomfortable to put stuff out that you're not a hundred percent confident in. Uh, but I suppose that you have to, you have to, to, to reach the point where you're making what you want to make.

• 45:08Greg Isenberg?

  It sucks. Honestly, like I think, uh, Putting stuff out there that you're not 100% sure is gonna work and being like knowing that people are criticizing it sucks, but the alternative of not putting stuff out there is way worse. So you just have to be, every time you have that, like, you know, that little voice in your brain that's like, ah, like, I don't feel, you know, is it ready yet? Is this video ready yet? Should I put this out? Oh, is this tweet gonna make me look bad? Or whatever it is. Like, as long as you're proud of the content, that's what matters. If you're proud of it, every time, you know, it's okay. It's okay to get bad comments

• 45:52Greg Isenberg?

  here and there. It's okay to get no comments. It's like, building a social account is like a startup where you have to iterate your way to product market fit, except this time it's content market fit. And oftentimes, it takes six, 12, 18 months, 24 months, it takes time. And your job is to be the chief experimenter.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  That's a good, that's a good bio. Chief experimenter.

• 46:19Greg Isenberg?

  That's pretty good. Chief, that is pretty good. I like that.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 46:25Greg Isenberg?

  Tyler, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you for asking questions and this is, this has been dope. Where could people go and, and learn more about you if, you know, and to get more creative?

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Well, I'm at Tlemco, T L E M C O on all the platforms, although now I'm thinking about starting new accounts, but that's where you can find me. And yeah, come make some crazy stuff with me.

• 46:50Greg Isenberg?

  And if you liked this episode where I bring on a friend who has a question for me and, and it's just like a live jam session, let me know in the comments. If you hated it, also let me know. But this has been fun because I think a lot of people are trying to figure out how to get content market fit, how to build an audience. They don't know how. Everyone's trying to figure out what type of content to create, what is their bio? Should I create a new account? All these questions and not enough people talk about the actual reality of how to do these things.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, and I'll also just to add to that, I spent so long thinking about all those things and then just set a line in the sand to start. And the only difference between launching and not launching. Is deciding that you've launched. So, once you decide that you've launched, things move so much faster. Like, for anyone starting a new project or hesitant about starting a new project, just start it and then you figure it out and it's a, it's a trial by error type thing. But I'm very grateful that I just started without having all my ducks in a row and without having the whole game plan set up.

• 48:05Greg Isenberg?

  Amen, brother. All right.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  And, and thank you. Very, very valuable feedback and much appreciated.

• 48:12Greg Isenberg?

  Anytime, my man. I'll catch you later. Thanks for listening and, uh, hope you enjoyed this episode of the Startup Ideas Podcast.