416: Step Up, Work Hard, Have Fun, and Raise The Bar. With "Lead Bob" Bobby Holland.

"Lead Bob", Bobby Holland. Navy SEAL and entrepreneur. Founder of Hoolie Golf. HoolieGolf.com https://www.hooliegolf.com Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 416 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Bronze Star Medal to Naval Special Warfare Operator Second Class, Sea Air Land, Robert A. Holland for service as set forth in the following citation. For heroic achievement in connection with combat operations against the enemy as Naval Special Warfare Task Unit Bruiser Combat Advisor and Machine Gunner in direct support of Operation Iraqi Freedom on 17 June 2006. Petty Officer Holland displayed exceptional courage under fire as automatic weapons gunner during a daytime presence patrol.

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  While patrolling a narrow street in a dangerous insurgent controlled neighborhood, his element came under heavy enemy fire. With complete disregard for his own safety, he maintained his position exposed in the street and engaged the enemy with his Mark 48 762 machine gun, suppressing enemy fire and allowing his element to take safe cover in a courtyard of a nearby residence. After departing the residence, the element began to fire and maneuver back toward the vicinity of a US Army Combat Outpost. As they executed the maneuver, he was wounded by shrapnel in the leg, but continued to provide cover for his teammates.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  By his extraordinary guidance, zealous initiative, and total dedication to duty, Petty Officer Holland reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of United States Naval Service. The Combat Distinguishing Device is authorized. For the President, J.D. Kernan, Rear Admiral, United States Navy, Commander, Naval Special Warfare Command.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is the citation from one of the awards for Robert Holland or Bobby Holland. In one of the situations when he stepped up and led and he did this over and over again on that deployment and throughout his career.

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  And you've probably heard me talk about

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  how the squad leader makes a difference. That's the Marine Corps professional way of saying it. In the teams, you've heard me talk about the E5 Mafia. These are the guys that run the platoon. These are the guys that navigate to the targets. They set the breaching charges. They prepare the radios, the vehicles, the crew surf weapons. They shoot machine guns that provide cover fire so the platoon can maneuver. Well, Bobby Holland was one of those.

• 2:45Jocko Willink?

  One of those E5s. Part of the E5 Mafia. And in the book Dichotomy of Leadership, which was written while Bobby was still on active duty. In that book, Leif refers to Bobby as one of his most trusted SEAL enlisted leaders. Because Bobby was in Charlie Platoon, Task Unit Bruiser, where he was known as Lead Bob. And he was called Lead Bob because in the SEAL teams, whoever leads some aspect of a mission or some part of the platoon is known as the lead. So it's lead sniper, lead breacher, lead climber, lead navigator.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, Bob seemed to kind of lead everything. So he just became Lead Bob. Based on his ability to step up and make things happen. And Lead Bob eventually moved out of the E5 Mafia into the head shed, the dreaded head shed as a leading petty officer of a platoon, as the chief of a platoon, eventually became a warrant officer in the SEAL teams. And he spent 21 years there, deployed all over the world, including both Iraq and Afghanistan.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  And it's an honor to have him with us here tonight to share his experiences and lessons learned. Lead Bob, Bobby, thanks for joining us, bro.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Jaco Echo, thanks for having me, man. I'm humbled to be here. Now, let's do it.

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, let's go. Lead Bob, there's more nicknames we'll uncover. There's more, there's more things out there.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I don't know how many I want to unveil. There are a couple.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a few. Alright, let's start at the beginning. Let's jump into this. Born in, you're a California kid.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Born and raised California, yep. Raised in Fresno, actually spent my first seven years in a place called Selma. It's like 20 miles south of Fresno. It's where my parents grew up. Yeah, went to Fresno when I was around eight years old. And lived there until, you know, joined the Navy, basically.

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  And, and so your mom, she was Portuguese, right?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  We are Portuguese.

• 4:43Jocko Willink?

  Cause that was one of the nicknames I remember was Portuguese Pig.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yes, the Portuguese Pig. Yeah. See, we're already getting into it, man.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I'm just saying, we're out of the gate.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Alright, so Big Pig was one of my many nicknames. Let's get it out. And, and the Portuguese Pig, yes.

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  So, and you, and your mom was what, second generation American?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  Or her grandparents?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So my, uh, my great grandparents immigrated from Portugal. My, I don't know all the details, but what was passed down to me was my great grandpa, actually, this is in World War I, um, trying to flee all the shit that was going on there. Um, swam out like a mile to, to catch a boat. So he wasn't with my great grandma at that point yet, but he was fleeing to America. And.

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  Frogman style.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Frogman style. Yeah, yeah.

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  And then what, what was up with your dad? What'd your dad do? Or did your mom work?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. So my mom was essentially raised on a farm in Selma. So. Interestingly enough, I was back in town last week and we went back down to Selma. Cruise around and you know, she took me by the old farm and all that. But she was raised on a farm, you know, kind of hard living there. She ended up somehow finding herself into the financial services industry. And later became an entrepreneur, kind of like a rags to riches story there. I almost say riches, I mean, we're middle class, but it felt like riches when you're coming from a farm, you know, so. Yeah, just real kind of gritty upbringing for her.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  My dad spent most of his childhood in Selma. He was actually born in Odessa, Texas and his mom kind of, you know, took him and his older brother from their dad, left Texas at a very early age, fled to Selma. And my dad, I mean, for lack of a better term, was basically raised himself from, you know, 12 on, had a really rough childhood.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  And this is all in Selma?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  All in Selma, yeah. Selma's kind of like a, I best describe as probably like an ag town, kind of a smaller town, Fresno's a lot bigger. Yeah.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  And then, did you, did you, say your dad had a brother that, that died?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, my, my dad, my dad has a story, man. Unfortunately, he's not around to tell that story. You know, we lost him back in 2012, but yeah, his brother, so his brother, I mean, kind of raised him, he was three years older than him, got into the wrong crowd and, you know, at the age of 21 was murdered. So it heavily affected my dad, you know, his entire life, my dad struggled with that and you know, the, you know, being pulled away from his dad and, and his mom kind of abandoning him. And rumor has it, I mean, I don't know, but that guy who murdered my uncle, my uncle

• 7:52Speaker 01

  was my namesake, I was named after, after him. He was handled with some country justice when he got out of prison, as rumor has it.

• 8:01Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, right on. And then what was your dad doing for work?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  So my dad uh found himself, he spent a career

• 8:14Speaker 01

  at a, I guess a commercial water filtration uh you know corporation, I guess. So he was a purchasing manager and just kinda did that. I mean, as long as uh you know, my entire life, that's kinda what he did.

• 8:26Jocko Willink?

  Was he ever in the military?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  He was a reservist uh post, post Vietnam, couple of years, uh I think he was stationed at Point Wainame or something for a year.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so he was Navy?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Navy, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a CB.

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh, right on.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Uh electrician and also a pig gunner.

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he, he introduced me to the uh, the M60, which down the road, I would actually get to wield, which was really kinda need to go a full circle, but yeah, I grew up uh, you know, my, my dad was in active duty. He didn't like get into it, uh but held the Navy with such high regard in the military and uh, you know, was always talking about carrying the pig and uh I'd never, man, I

• 9:12Speaker 01

  I remember this shit, I'm all the way back in Ramadi and in gunfights, but my dad used to tell me um the survival rate, sorry, the survival rate in Vietnam for a pig gunner was like, I don't know, thirty seconds or something. That was kinda like the, the rumor, so um, you know, that conversation kinda stuck with me and when we were getting in gunfights, it was uh, yeah, check.

• 9:34Jocko Willink?

  You tried to shrink your head down a little bit?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  Try and keep that low profile. So what are you into when you're growing up, like you're in your childhood?

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Uh, I was really into sports. Yeah, that was kind of my, my outlet. I was a uh rambunctious kid, I guess you could say. My, my mom um

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  We call those delinquents.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I never spent any time in a facility per se, but uh Yeah, I mean, I was just full of energy and uh rambunctious and stubborn. And and a handful, man, but sports was my outlet. So, you know, really into sports, played all sports. Growing up, uh, you know, started with soccer and T-ball. And uh, then I got into football and wrestling and those were like really, really my sports and. I grew up playing street ball, street football. I don't know if anyone knows that that's a thing, but.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Echo?

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Did we play street ball in Hawaii? Yes. Big time, what'd you play with?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Uh, just neighbor kids.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, but what, like a rock?

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no. Uh, football, man.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Hey, I don't know. There's different levels to street ball.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  Charles is playing that with the coconut boy.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  We have played with coconut before, yes, yeah.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  So, street ball, in the street?

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I probably like every day of my life from like age eight until, you know, I was playing real football on the field. Uh, my brother and I, I have a younger brother, three years younger, uh, playing street ball, man, yeah. It's great, kind of teeth there and uh, yeah, man, yeah, I was uh.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Into movies, uh, you know. Into sports.

• 11:08Jocko Willink?

  And then what's up with your parents? Are your parents like? I mean, it sounds like your mom's coming from a little bit of a rough background, your mom, your dad's coming a little bit of a rough background. How were they getting along? How was, how was all that, like the home life?

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, it, you know, it was, it was good. The, the parents uh, did a good job of not, both my parents did a good job of not passing down their shit. You know, um, and that's, that's a real gift. That's a generational gift. And I was having this conversation with my mom, um, the other day, you know, I, I've been doing a lot of reflections last week, knowing I was going to come on here. Um, I haven't really thought about a lot of this stuff in a long time. And uh, you know, I, I thank her for that because, you know, she kind of broke the kind of cycle of shit there. And that's been passed on to my kids and uh, so yeah, you, you know, I, I. I had a great upbringing, man. I mean, you know, our parents worked very hard to get a roof over our head. We had everything that we needed.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  You know, they didn't come from much, but yeah, man, I wouldn't change my childhood for anything. It was a blast. My parents always supported me. Doing everything, you know, and they they let me be me. And I think that was the best thing that they could have done was not not resist. You know, they tried when I was younger and it didn't work. And I think I turned out to be the best version I could have been.

• 12:31Jocko Willink?

  What what like guardrails did you push up against with your parents? Like, what were you getting into that was where they were like, all right, we just gotta let this go?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  Were you like getting good grades?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was. Yeah, I was a decent kid, man. I was a pretty good kid. You know, I got got decent grades. I wasn't very focused in the classroom. I just didn't want to be in the classroom, but I got it done. You know, my parents did expect me to do well in school, so I did well enough to keep them off my back. And, you know, as I got older, I just got in a lot of fights, man. You know, and I was, yeah.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  Were you just mouthy? Or were you a nice target? Were you just hostile?

• 13:22Speaker 01

  I don't know. You know, I think I need some of my, you know, childhood opponents to kind of remind me a little bit. I like to think that it wasn't me that started it. You know, my parents raised me to never start a fight, but always to finish it. Like, it was always very clear that if you get in a fight, you better finish it. And it was like, you know, not like, you know, if you want, it was like, you're gonna finish it. We expect you to do that. So I got picked off for a little bit. I was a. I got a little bit chunky, you know, or hefty. Um, you know, but it was like solid like fighter weight, you know, like nine, nine, 10 years old, you know, it wasn't like sloppy. It was like kind of thick.

• 14:07Jocko Willink?

  That happens to boys when they're getting ready to grow.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  Like that age of maybe nine, 10, 11, they get a little bit thick, we'll say.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:15Jocko Willink?

  And then when they grow, usually they lean out a little bit.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So.

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  So you got picked on because of that?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't, don't quote me out, but I think from like second grade to like sixth grade as 120 pounds.

• 14:24Jocko Willink?

  And I just. That's pretty, that's pretty beefy little kid.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  I just grew taller and then I grew kind of thinner, right? Um, yeah. So I got picked on a little bit, uh, and, and I just handled people, man, you know? I was.

• 14:36Jocko Willink?

  Straight up, bro.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Completely untrained, like no skill whatsoever, but I was, I was fueled by the movies of the 1980s, man. You know, I mean, all, all those action movies and.

• 14:48Jocko Willink?

  You related.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I, I related and yeah, I, you know, I think my record, I think I'm undefeated, man.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I fought, uh, I fought all my neighbors except for one. There, there was one kid. I, I won't let him know who he is that, uh, I didn't want to fight. He, he was a tough guy. He is older too, but, uh, yeah. And, and in school, uh, got a lot of fights there and, uh, I mean, just damn near. Yeah. Uh, my mom was on a, you know, first name basis with the principal.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  I don't think I was suspended, but I was threatened to be suspended. I was threatened to be expelled several different times and, uh, yeah. So just, just like a lot of fighting and, uh, man, I got so many fights. I, I was even getting cocky and, and like trying new moves and shit. I know business doing, um.

• 15:35Jocko Willink?

  What year is this?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Oh, this is like circa, you know, like eight, 88 to kind of 90.

• 15:42Jocko Willink?

  So like, this is still pre UFC. No one knows.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no. All right. So.

• 15:46Jocko Willink?

  You're still thinking Roadhouse moves are going to work.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, I got a story for you. All right. Speaking of, uh, Roadhouse here. So I'm, uh, I want to say I'm 11 years old and, on the playground and playing basketball, the basketball goes out of bounds and this kid, you know, like picks up the ball. And I was like, hey, man, yeah, give us the ball back. And he's like, yeah, not happening. He threw it away. I was like, oh, it's game on.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Fight is happening. So we, we end up going after it and, uh, yeah, throw a couple of blows. I'm like, I'm like 11 years old, man. Just a little chunky butt, throwing, throwing blows. And like I said, I, I was like so cocky at this one. Been so many fights. I'm like, it's go time. I'm doing it. And I decided to try for the first time in my entire life, a roundhouse kick. Hell, yeah.

• 16:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, bro.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  It's real. Not, not only did it not land, but I fell on my ass and, uh, yeah, not, not a great look, so.

• 16:42Jocko Willink?

  Is this, when did you meet Tyler?

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I met Tyler in eighth grade for sure. May, maybe seventh grade, but we got really close in high school.

• 16:53Jocko Willink?

  And the, the reason I bring up Tyler is because, well, we actually all know him because he ended up in the SEAL teams as well. Not sure, we'll get to that. But that was seventh, eighth grade. You met him, started running with him.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  And you get in high school, or did you keep wrestling?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Uh, I stopped wrestling in, in eighth grade. Um, man, I, I really credit, I, I only wrestled for like four or five years, but, um.

• 17:15Jocko Willink?

  That wins every fight. If you're 11, 12 years old and you wrestled for four years, you're winning every fight just on that. I mean, and a nice roundhouse kick apparently.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, back then they didn't have mixed martial, sorry, mixed martial arts. They didn't have jiu jitsu. Uh, well, it wasn't as prominent, I guess.

• 17:31Jocko Willink?

  No, they didn't have it in America.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  It was kind of like karate, taekwondo. I mean, those were kind of like what, what kids would do.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  But I wrestled. I think, you know, strongly encourage, you know, especially young boys to, you know, do one of those things, do martial arts, wrestle because, I mean, I, I just learned things at that young age that carried on with me the rest of my life. And the, uh, the, the discipline to wrestle, um, I mean, the hardest practices of probably all the sports, I'd imagine.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  You know, cutting weight, the discipline, and then just standing in the ring, you know, staring that other dude down, you know, the heart's racing and, and like you're going after it, you know, but, uh, so I, I was a good wrestler, you know, pretty accomplished, um, up until eighth grade. I made it up to, I'm not sure if it was a state meet or regional meet, but a pretty big meet up in Sacramento in eighth grade. And, you know, I got pretty close to like finishing. I got towards the end and then, uh,

• 18:30Speaker 01

  I met my match, uh, at the, a junior Olympic dude.

• 18:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Who, I mean, looked straight up like Rocky. And I, I had lacked skill, to be honest with you. I, I was just kind of like aggression and, uh, and I met my match and I think he got me, I think it's called a surfboard move. And he just maxed me out on points. And I was like, you know what, man? I feel like my wrestling career's over. So, uh, went into, to high school and my high school had a really great football program, a year-round program.

• 19:01Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And, uh, that was basically, you know, I, I had to drop wrestling and I was all in on football after that.

• 19:07Jocko Willink?

  All in on football. And what, what did you make? Like, are you playing freshman team, varsity team, JV team? Like, how'd that go? What'd your career look like?

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, my high school career. Uh, I started out, I played, played freshman ball, um, had a pretty good season. And then after the freshman season ended, uh, our varsity team was in the playoff run. So they had, I think they won the championship the year prior, like really, really great team. Uh, I don't know what we were ranked in the state that year, um, but my senior year, I think we were ranked like fifth. So, like, super solid program. Uh, the head coach came in. I, I don't know what level he coached in college, but he came down and just ran kind of like a college level program. At least that was the perception of it. So they pulled me up to varsity at the end of my freshman year. Uh, by this point, I, I played Ironman ball,

• 20:00Speaker 01

  uh, which means offense and defense, um, on the freshman side, but they pulled me up and then I just played defensive line from that point on.

• 20:07Jocko Willink?

  What'd you weigh, like, in high school?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Uh, I think I was 190, 190s.

• 20:13Jocko Willink?

  Is that by the time you got to your senior year?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, man, I, I don't remember like what I came in at, um. Freshman year, but yeah, I was like one nineties.

• 20:24Jocko Willink?

  Were you jacked? Were you lifting? Were you squatting? Or was it just kind of like normal?

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I was like jacked, like, you know, like muscle man jacked, but I was, I was super strong. One of the things that, you know, I didn't mention, we kind of passed over, but when, you know, I was a chunky butt from like, I don't know, nine to 11 or whatever. I started to lean out, but one of the things I did, I made a, a pact with myself. Um, fifth grade, summer going into sixth grade, I'm like, I'm done being a chunky butt. So I just stopped eating shit and, uh, and I started, my dad had some weights. So I started like lifting weights and I was a strong kid. So yeah, I was strong and, uh, I was fast, you know, and I say that like with a huge grain of salt, like compared to fast people,

• 21:13Speaker 01

  not fast, but I was, you know, decently fast, aggressive, uh, and I felt like I was born to play football.

• 21:21Jocko Willink?

  So how far did you make it like your senior year in football?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So man, I was all in like, uh, you know, I had aspirations of playing after high school, but I think my social life and distraction kind of got in the way in high school and I just stopped developing myself further. So, you know, I'm still like ranked.

• 21:44Jocko Willink?

  What grade was that?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Well, I would say probably junior year and senior year. I just kind of slacked off.

• 21:52Jocko Willink?

  Did you get a car or something?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you get a girlfriend?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep. Um, I actually met my future wife in high school. So, uh, dated sophomore year.

• 22:02Jocko Willink?

  Are we allowed to say her name?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Beth. Yeah.

• 22:05Jocko Willink?

  So you met Beth?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  I met Beth sophomore year. It's crazy. Yeah. Um, and.

• 22:12Jocko Willink?

  Big distraction right there, Beth. Big distraction. Just distracting you all over the place.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Let's, let's blame her for the reason why I'm not, you know, I didn't play in the NFL. Not the fact that I was, you know, five 11 and not even 200 pounds playing defensive line nonetheless.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I was a very social kid and you know, man, I just was distracted and, uh, probably doing things I shouldn't have been doing and not, you know, I, I didn't want to get big. I was happy being kind of strong and lean and I probably had to gain another 30 pounds, you know, which I would do later in life. But yeah, so we we made it. And I got injured, really bad high ankles, high ankle sprain my senior year. It didn't take me out of the game, but uh, yeah, I was just like less, less than full force that, you know, first half of the season there stats weren't that great. And, you know, there were no, no scholarships at the end of that, no, no colleges ringing. Great grades

• 23:12Speaker 01

  were decent, but it kind of squandered that. And my, my final game, man, I, I remember it like very, very closely because we were making another run at the championship, had a good football season into the playoffs, or, or it was the game deciding if we go into the playoffs. That, that part's a little bit fuzzy, but we were down, it was 28-21, we're playing our, our rival. So I went to Clovis West High School, and our rival was Clovis High School. They were ahead, Clovis was ahead 28-21. And, you know, I, I think it's poetic, the way my career ended. If you want to call it a career, at my high school.

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  We're calling it a career.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, all right, all right. So it was a play action, you know, run on the offensive side. And I was a nose guard. I broke right through the line and I just saw the quarterback and I hit him, he fumbled the ball. And I'm looking at, man, I, I can paint this picture for you right now. We're probably, I'm probably like 40 yards away from the end zone. And the ball is there, and there's no one. I see no one. I pick up the ball. And, you know, I just, I started booking it and I made it like, probably three yards and I got tackled from behind. That was my last play of football. We drove it all the way, our offense drove

• 24:37Speaker 01

  all the way to the one yard line. And they, they couldn't, couldn't get it done, man. So that was it. End of the career. I was the, you know, we, we went into locker rooms, change, and I went back on the field and just kind of like soaked it in, man. That was, football was such an important part of my life up that point and I mean, honestly, man, when I went through Bud's, I was looking back at football practices and like, I mean, this ain't that bad. Yeah, especially summer in Fresno, like,

• 25:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  It's miserable.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Hundred and ten degrees. And this is back when, you know, hydrating was like a luxury.

• 25:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's that. This is pre the big hydration thing. You gotta stay hydrated.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had.

• 25:26Jocko Willink?

  Back in, like, they started saying hydrate or die. Back then, it was just die. It's just like, just die. Like, you don't need water. What do you, what's wrong with you? You're freaking wimp if you need water.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  We had ambulances come out. This was not uncommon. And, you know, everyone would just look at a guy just like, weak. This guy.

• 25:44Jocko Willink?

  Heat, Kaz. You were into music, too. You played guitar.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. So my,

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  What was that all about?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  My parents divorced when, uh, when I was around 12 and my mom started dating a guy, uh, ended up marrying him for a couple of years as well. He played guitar. So he introduced me to guitar. And, uh, I picked it up. I loved it. Um, so I started, started jamming out. I think, uh, man, Paradise City was the first song I learned.

• 26:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:15Jocko Willink?

  Straight in.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, you know, I, I never learned how to read music, um, just tab.

• 26:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  And just kind of like self-taught. I say self-taught with a grain of salt. Uh, you know, that, that gentleman taught me a lot, taught, taught me all the chords. And then I would just, you know, that, that was kind of my thing. So whenever I was out of football, I would go to my room and I would jam and I would play songs and I would, uh, write my own songs and do that. And then, uh, you know, eventually got into hardcore music and,

• 26:44Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Echo's favorite.

• 26:48Jocko Willink?

  No, that's my favorite, but you know, Echo throws out the hell yeah at certain moments in podcasts. Usually it's on some real dumb shit.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:56Jocko Willink?

  To be honest with you, hell, hell, yeah. Like someone will say, like, he actually already said one today. When I said Roadhouse, did you hear that? He goes, hell, yeah. Because you know, that's some meaningful shit to echo Charles, bro. He's like, you know, that's a bouncer right there. That's his, that's his uh forefathers right there.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Pat Swayze, man. Got after it.

• 27:15Jocko Willink?

  So you're listening to hardcore, you going to shows and everything?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. Uh, I went to my first show in eighth grade. Uh, Bad Religion was my first show.

• 27:24Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, good, good, uh, good, good punk rock, punk rock band back then. Um, got knocked down in the mosh pit. My first experience with that. Walked away, had a bloody ear.

• 27:33Jocko Willink?

  You're fired up.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Fired up.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  Like, this is, look, yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and got more into it in, in high school. Uh, I actually, I mean, backing up a little bit, the head bangers ball. I was really into that in the, uh, late eight, late eighties, early nineties.

• 27:50Jocko Willink?

  With Ricky Ratman? Ricky Ratman? Remember that?

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:54Jocko Willink?

  The head bangers ball, Ricky Ratman. Yeah. And they'd play songs that weren't appropriate for the daytime MTV. Remember when MTV had music on it? It was an interesting thing. So as you're doing all this shit, do you have a plan for your future?

• 28:10Speaker 01

  No. Yeah, was that, is that a shocker? I, I mean, football was my plan, but then I just kind of let that die. Um, no plan at all. And that became clear, uh, senior year. I mean, when football was over, it was like, shit.

• 28:28Jocko Willink?

  So are people like applying to colleges and this kind of stuff?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Man, I,

• 28:34Jocko Willink?

  And what are you doing? Like, uh, just,

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Everything wrong. You know, so like even backing up, uh, during the football season, it was so awful, but, uh, I took the SATs on a Saturday after a Friday night football game. Up super late, uh, had to drive, it was like 45 minutes south of Fresno at six in the morning. I was doing touch and goes. I mean, I surprised I haven't made it there in one piece. I was smoked. I did awful, you know, I, I didn't have any big prospects. Wasn't super into school. Um, but my parents told me as soon as I was done with football, it's like, go get a job. So it's like, check, all right, I'm going to get a job. And then just figure it out. So I,

• 29:20Jocko Willink?

  What was your job?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Uh, I ended up getting a job at the Silver Dollar Hofbrau.

• 29:27Jocko Willink?

  Which is what, a restaurant?

• 29:28Speaker 01

  It's a, a Hoff browse like a restaurant bar. It's kind of like a bar with a cafeteria set up. It, it's weird. Um, so I, I got a job working in the back. So I was like in the kitchen, cleaning stuff up.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Bus boy, you know, washed dishes, graduated, kind of like was a bus boy and, and a bar back and then, um, did some ad hoc bouncing as well.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  But yeah, so it's, you know, I, I, no, I, I didn't have a plan. Um, I decided to go into junior college or community college, um, because that's what you do when you kind of don't have a plan. So figured I would do that and kind of figure stuff out and, you know, that, uh, my senior year, I was just kind of doing a lot of exploration, like, you know, young men do at that stage and like, man, what, what do I do?

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  Were you thinking military? Did you start to consider military?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  You know, I, I started having some ideas.

• 30:28Jocko Willink?

  If you're watching freaking Predator and freaking Rambo and all this stuff, you must be.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I did. I, I was raised on those movies. I was raised on, yeah, I have, uh, this Rambo knife here. You know, first blood, commando, predator. So I felt like I wanted to do some sort of, you know, you know, action career, if you will, but I had no idea kind of what that was. So yeah, went, went to community college. I actually, uh, one interesting thing that happened to me in my senior year, uh, was I, I found a martial art called Aikido.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  So, uh, I was actually at a party, um, senior year. This is after the football season. And at this guy's house and he had like a full on dojo set up in his, in his house.

• 31:16Jocko Willink?

  Now we look back and know that this dude was a nerd.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  At the time, we're like, yo, he's been trained by the ancients or something.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  He had, he had straw mats out, like it, it was, it was legit. So, um, I'm, I'm like, hey, you know, what, what's this? And, uh, he showed me some moves and I was like, oh, okay. That's kind of cool. And, you know, he's like, oh, by the way, this is a, you know, you heard of Steven Seagal? I was like, uh, please tell me more.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  You know, that, that's what, uh, Segal did. And I was like, I was intrigued. So, uh, I ended up going to a class that next week and, and got really into that. So that became my outlet.

• 31:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you buy those weird pants and everything?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  No, no, I, I have a great picture. I'll show you after this. Uh, I, I got to do, uh, some like black belt testing at Segal's residence.

• 32:08Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  And, uh, I have a picture of him wearing the funny pants and elf shoes.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Wait, the pants are for the, like the ma- the teachers and stuff, right? It's not for the regular students?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, uh, yeah, I'm sorry. You're, you're talking about the hakuma.

• 32:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm just talking about like the Aikido pants.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:23Jocko Willink?

  Like that whole outfit that they wear.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  No, I, I never, I never made black belt. I, I got up to, uh,

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  Do you need to have a black belt to get the pants or whatever?

• 32:30Speaker 01

  You're, you're supposed to. Yeah, there's, uh,

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Like a regular gi?

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, just gi.

• 32:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  If I know this, cause I did Aikido back in the day.

• 32:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh damn, look, it all comes out. I, I, the only thing I know about Aikido is I bought my first gi ever from an Aikido school in Ocean Beach. And it was, it was cheap. It was forty dollars. It was, uh, it was called unbleached. So there was like a white one.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  And it felt a little bit softer, but that was like forty-eight dollars. And the, the one that I got was forty dollars.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:02Jocko Willink?

  And it was unbleached. So it was real rough and it was like a yellowish, kinda gnarly looking color.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Awful.

• 33:08Jocko Willink?

  And it lasted like three weeks. Cause they didn't know what we were about to do with these things. Cause we were turning the,

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  And just killing each other. Yeah. So the thing didn't last long at all. And then I had to go back. I had to go get like a real jujutsu gi. But that's only, so the, only the high level people wear that weird outfit in Aikido?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it, it depends on, you know, if, if you're going to like a non-traditional, um, place, they, they may do that, which gets really confusing. Cause like, we used to travel and do seminars and training events. And so sometimes,

• 33:39Jocko Willink?

  Bobby and the friggin' training program.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  So, so sometimes you, you would go to these seminars and, and you, you know, you're training with folks and you pair up with people and you're training with them. You're like, man. Seems like you're not a black belt.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you're also like, it seems like I could kick your ass.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yep. Um, yeah, but in Aikido, it's a

• 33:58Jocko Willink?

  Young Chunky Bobby's gonna come out and whoops his ass.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  You're, you're basically a white belt all the way until you wear a hakuma. So there's no, you, you don't know kind of who you're dealing with. Until you get the hakuma, then, you know, that's just first degree black belt and then you go off from there. So.

• 34:13Jocko Willink?

  How many, how often are you training?

• 34:15Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  Like every day type thing?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Not every day, multiple times a week. I mean, it became, it became my new football.

• 34:21Jocko Willink?

  And this is your senior year of high school?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Senior year.

• 34:23Jocko Willink?

  And then it carries into when you go to, uh, community college?

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:27Jocko Willink?

  Keep training?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Yep, yep. I trained, trained really hard, uh, and, you know, started traveling. It, it just really kind of consumed my life. So, uh, Aikido, yeah, basically I went to school, um, you know, worked out and did Aikido and, uh, and then later when I got motivated to, you know, go the route of prepping to go to the teams. I mean, that's just kind of all I did.

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  So what, so how'd you find out about the teams? Just straight, the movie Navy SEALs?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  It played a huge part. So there's

• 34:56Jocko Willink?

  Leif Babin, he's just straight up like, that's like a game changer for him. Freaking Navy SEALs.

• 35:05Jocko Willink?

  Someone else was on here, it was like Navy SEALs. And, uh, Dave Burke, Top Gun, like a hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. He's like, oh yeah, Top Gun came out. He's like, okay, that's what I'm gonna do. So was that where you first heard of the Dames?

• 35:19Speaker 01

  I don't know where I first heard of it, but I do recall I had a teacher in eighth grade who, uh, the rumor was he was a SEAL. Turned out not to be the case. And I, I've learned many years later that he went to BUDS. He didn't graduate BUDS. But I, I remember, I think that was the first time I, I heard of it and, you know, kind of piqued my interest.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  You know, and then, and then I, I started Aikido and Steven Seagal and, you know, Under Siege.

• 35:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right. He was a Navy SEAL cook.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Navy SEAL cook. I'm like, man, I don't want to be a cook, but I kind of like, you know, I, so I started looking into it more. And then I watched Navy SEALs, the movie, and there's no turning back.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Best movie, hands down. It's good. I, I've, I've watched that dozens and dozens of times. And if it's on, you know, if I'm scrolling through the, uh, the channels it's on, I have to finish it. I'm watching it.

• 36:13Jocko Willink?

  Pay homage.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:16Jocko Willink?

  Go to a recruiter like and Tyler, you guys, did you guys just sit down and watch it together and freaking just geek out and go like, let's go join the Navy?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  So it wasn't like a linear path to go to the teams.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you two weren't like on it together?

• 36:32Speaker 01

  We got there, but we weren't there immediately. So probably spent six months outside of high school. Just kind of mess around. No real designs to go into the military.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Then I started looking into the SEAL thing and talking with Tyler and Tyler was actually looking to become a Marine. So we went to a like armed forces mall, you know, like, like you go like, uh, just like on a street corner. It wasn't an actual mall, but it was like, you know, army, Navy, Air Force. Yep. And we went there, um, just trying to talk to a couple of dudes to kind of feel it out. And I wanted to talk to the Navy guy. Shocker that like Navy guy was out for lunch, but you know, who, who wasn't out for lunch was Gunny.

• 37:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Gunny came out, you know, saw two, two fit dudes standing outside and I was like, Hey, boys, come inside. And he had us up on the pull up bar immediately cranking them out. He's firing us up and, you know, introduced us to force recon and, you know, put on a video. And I walked out of there a hundred percent thinking I'm going to be a Marine.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, I don't know how you didn't sign the dotted line that day.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  I did. I, I actually, I was so much so, I went home and I told my mom, yeah, I was living with my mom at that point. I'm like, Mom, I'm going to be a Marine and she just completely broke down. And, and, and really because I hadn't talked much about the military up to that point. So it was like completely out of the blue. And she's like, please don't, you know, just think about it, give it some time. And yeah, so anyways, I did take some time. I was like, all right. Yeah. I woke up the next morning and the gunny's, you know, spell had kind of worn off.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  And from that point on, I was like, man, I'm, I'm all in. And then probably six months after

• 38:22Jocko Willink?

  All in for the teams?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  For the teams, yeah.

• 38:25Jocko Willink?

  But you still hadn't talked to a recruiter yet?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  No, no. I ended up going back, probably like six months later, something like that. By that point, Tyler had kind of gone on board. So we decided to, to do that later. Yeah. And basically it was all in, you know, on the frogman path from, from that point. And then spent the last, at least the last year and a half, maybe even longer of just training. And Tyler and I trained like madmen, you know, I mean, for better part of two years and

• 39:00Jocko Willink?

  Trying to get ready.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Trying to get ready.

• 39:02Jocko Willink?

  Was that like that, all that time, was it because you were thinking, oh, this is going to be so hard? Like, I'm not ready yet. I need to get ready. Was it one of those things?

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was. And there wasn't a whole lot of information back then. As you know, I mean, there were books from Vietnam. The internet was just, you know, coming online, but like people weren't really using it that much. So, yeah, I was trying to convince myself that I could do it. And I was trying to prepare myself. And I did come across, Tyler and I came across a couple of books that had like, man, I think it was a Stu Smith book. It was like a workout book. And then there was another book. So, you know, we gobbled those up and we created a training plan. I mean, this was like the first real exercise I'd had in my entire life of setting a goal and figuring out how to conquer that goal.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Like invaluable stuff. But, uh, yeah, I'd never ran more than than the high school sanctioned mile. You know, like I ran lots of, uh, you know, yards in football, but had never ran more than a mile. So started running a lot, worked our way up to 30 miles a week, was running two, or sorry, swimming two miles in the pool, which is

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Miserable, it's awful. Like, like a

• 40:18Jocko Willink?

  Like a 25 meter pool or something like that?

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. Started doing, uh, pool skills stuff. So like, we knew enough about BUDS to know what the requirements were. So, Tyler and I were drown proofing ourselves. We were, uh, breath holding. I mean, doing, looking back, especially when I got into training and, and you learn some stuff, it's like, man, just really dumb stuff, so.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  Uh, just for everyone that's listening, one up, one down, man. When you're working in the water, you're doing breath holds, you're doing drown proofing, anything like that. One guy on the top, the other guy can do breath holds. Don't be competing against each other, cause you, you can, you can definitely both pass out and die and it's terrible. So, one up, one down is the rule for that stuff. If you're listening and you're a freaking knuckle headed young man between the ages of 13 and 24 and you're, you and your buddy decide you're gonna go and you're like, we need to do breath holds, just one up, one down. That's the rule. And so you guys are running, you guys are swimming, you guys are doing drown proofing and you're getting ready. What, um, you finally go to the recruiter? Was it a hard process?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Uh, no, that, that was easy. Um, you know, basically I got my, my ticket to MEPS. So, went to MEPS and, uh, that was up in Sacramento and, uh, you know, MEPS is essentially, I don't know what it stands for, but it's kind of military processing or medical type stuff.

• 41:37Jocko Willink?

  Military entry processing station, something like that.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  There you go. Yep. Yeah. So did, I mean, it's like an all day affair up early and they're prodding you and poking you, doing, you know, every test known to man. Uh, and then at the end of that, you sign your papers. So I, I did all that and I talked to the, to the recruiter and prior, sorry, backing up, I talked to the recruiter and he put me in for the SEAL contract. I think it was like a, you know, $2,500 bonus.

• 42:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  And uh, so, so I had that contract going up there to MEPS and you know, I do the whole slew of tests there and I get to the point at the very end of that, you go to an office and then they go through your contract. And I was trying to get into the delayed entry program. So I, I didn't want to go. I was, I mean, even at this point, I was in, but I was like hesitant to pull the trigger. So I was like,

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause you thought you need more preparation?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I did. So I was like, you know, I want like six, seven more months. Um, so anyways, I, I'm at the desk with the recruiter person, whatever that is, I'm going through the contract and I'm flipping through, I'm like, yep, good, good, solid, nailed that. Um, and then I get, you know, to the back and there's a signature. I'm like, man, I'm not seeing any SEAL shit in here. And, you know, that it was a lady, uh, just told me like, yeah, you, uh, you failed an eye test. You don't qualify.

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was like, what are you talking about? So, uh, I mean, I was devastated and I, I walked out of there. I, I didn't, I obviously didn't sign. I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm out, man. And I was like broken heart. I had spent the last, you know, 18 months.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  So what part of the eye test did you fail?

• 43:24Speaker 01

  So, you know, I spoke on this on another podcast a couple of months ago and I may have misspoke because my memory was fuzzy. I had to consult my mom on this, but she just said I, I failed the general eyesight, like the, uh, not sure if the requirements were 2020.

• 43:38Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I have no idea.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  For SEAL back then. Um, but yeah, just, I failed the eye test. So I got kicked out and, you know, went back to my mom and, uh, devastated. My, you know, my mom was kind of hesitant for me joining the military at all.

• 43:53Jocko Willink?

  She was kind of stoked.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  She was, but you know what? She actually helped me. Uh, I, I went and got a couple of doctor appointments on my own. I went to some optometrist and I was determined to find a way in. So I ended up, I went to two separate optometrists until I got the one I liked and got what I needed. And man, I guess that's all it takes for the Navy. I, I went with a, a permission slip and I, I went back to MEPS.

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  Do you wear glasses now?

• 44:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:23Jocko Willink?

  Do you know what your vision is now?

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Uh, it's, I mean, it's not 2020, like my left eye is a little bit weak. So I think probably, you know, my, my left eye was probably a little bit lazy.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  I know there's a depth perception test.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:35Jocko Willink?

  That I've known kids that have failed and they, you don't, you can't go. And it's a weird thing. It's like one out of every hundred people or something. They can't see depth and that's one of the few, like you can get just about any job in the Navy, but you can't be a SEAL. And it's a bummer. I was talking to one of the master chiefs that's like sort of in the team still, and he's actually trying to push for some of these things to change because you have kids that they fail the depth perception test, but they like played freaking baseball. You know what I mean? Where obviously you have depth perception if you can play baseball. And there's just a weird thing. I don't really remember the test, the depth. It's like dots.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  You're looking at dots or you're looking at a house or something and, and you have to see, is this dot in front of the house, behind the house? And some people just can do it and some people can't. So I don't know. Maybe you failed that thing.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  I, I don't know, but I went and I got whatever test they needed and, and it got me in. So I.

• 45:36Jocko Willink?

  Did Tyler, what, what happened to him when you failed? Was he like, yeah, you, you suck?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, I mean, he, he carried on and, uh, what was interesting was we, we ended up, I mean, I, I got that resolved. I don't remember how long it took, but I got that resolved pretty quickly. I mean, I, I wasn't pouting too damn long on it. I went and I'm not one to give up too easily. And yeah, I mean, that was like another, there's all these moments throughout your life. These like little, you know, micro decisions, these character building moments. Like I hadn't out, you know, like people had known at that point I was training to do this. Um, I could have taken that out. Um, but that was the case where I, I kept pushing. My mom helped me out. Um, and so I, I got back on the debt program and then Tyler and I were, were aligned on that. And, uh, but we ended up not coming

• 46:24Speaker 01

  in at the same time. He had kind of a medical issue that delayed him. Uh, but man, that last, after I signed those papers.

• 46:33Jocko Willink?

  Training like a psycho.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  I trained like a psycho. I was still in school at the time and I had to explain this. So I ended up going to school later and where my transcripts were necessary. And there was this like this period where you know, like good grades, you know, first two years in college or first year and a half. And then this semester, um, where I just, man, I, I was just partying and just, you know, thinking like you're going to leave and never come back. Type of thing like just, just getting after it. And, uh, so I, I was just training like a psycho, just partying, just trying to get it all in, uh, still doing, you know, heavy Aikido at this point. Um, Beth and I had broken up, like whenever I started going full cycle, full psycho, like towards the Navy and it was like Navy.

• 47:19Jocko Willink?

  Nothing else matters.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Aikido, working out.

• 47:22Jocko Willink?

  You were like, it's best for you.

• 47:26Jocko Willink?

  You're like, I'm not, I might not come home. You just find another. Full legends of the fall.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  No, man, it, this was, this was not me. This was like, she was done. She's like, yeah, you know, I mean,

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  She was over your dumb ass.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there was no time. I mean, I was just working out nonstop and I'm just a psycho, man. So,

• 47:46Jocko Willink?

  It's weird too, when you're going in the military, if you like, if you don't know people that were in the military, you just think you're, that's it. Like, I know when I joined the Navy, I was basically like saying goodbye to my friends for the last time. I was like, you know, it's been nice knowing you. I'm out. Like, I'll never see you again. That's how I felt.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:03Jocko Willink?

  And part of that was kind of good, but I didn't have any, like, if you grew up, let's say you grew up in San Diego, you'd see military people everywhere and they'd be like, oh, like, you know, you go into school and there'd be like, oh, some dad that's there that's in uniform picking up his kids. You're like, oh, it's kind of a nor, there's a normal side to it. If you, like, I grew up in a little town in Connecticut, dude, there's no military people. So I thought, well, there's no military people because when you join the military, you're gone. That's it. You're in some other world. So yeah, you get that attitude like it's over. You know, all your, all your old friends, they're out. Your girlfriend's gone. Doesn't matter. Parents, good luck. Thank you. Goodbye. I'm carrying on.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  I had a good buddy and I'll call him out here. Um, Kerry, he was one of my Aikido buddies, but I had a heart to heart with him. Um, getting ready to leave, man, because I was having like second thoughts, man. You know, it's tough. Like when you are, you've never done anything like that as a kid or a young man, you haven't left your family. Um, it seems daunting and just like what you said, man, it felt like I was never coming back. Like I was never going to see my family again. Um, because I was going to get shipped to some far away land on clandestine missions, you know.

• 49:17Jocko Willink?

  I felt that way too, but I was super pumped. I was super stoked. I was like,

• 49:23Speaker 01

  I'm out of Connecticut.

• 49:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm out. I'll see y'all later.

• 49:28Jocko Willink?

  Remember me in the setting sun.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Just too many movies, man, you know?

• 49:37Jocko Willink?

  So you had your heart to heart with Kerry. What'd you say?

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, man, he just kind of, he just kind of fired me up. He just kind of pulled me out of it. You know, I mean, it was just that kind of weakness creeping in. I mean, just like everything else, when, whenever you're about to do something really tough, you're going to have those, those thoughts and you're going to have that, uh, you know, I mean, it's, it's that human survival instinct trying to, trying to pull you out of like the shit, you know?

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, uh, you know, uh, obviously went through with it. My, uh, my dad took me to the drop off. Um, this was right after Y2K.

• 50:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. So we barely made it out of that one.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  We barely made it out. Yeah. Um, and then I was shipped off, man, and off, off to boot camp in, uh, Chicago in January.

• 50:21Jocko Willink?

  Good times.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Man.

• 50:22Jocko Willink?

  That ain't no Fresno.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  No, that is no Fresno. It was, uh, epic snowfall. And really, I mean, I'd been up in the snow. We got mountains near Fresno, uh, but I'd never seen snow like that.

• 50:33Jocko Willink?

  Boot camp, shock, regret, dismay, didn't care, RCPO?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 50:41Jocko Willink?

  Were you the RCPO?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  For like a week.

• 50:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  But then they found out I had no rhythm because one of the rules or not, not the rules, but, uh, roles of the RCPO, uh, the ARPOC, right? Is, uh, you sing cadence and the Navy.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  They sing their cadence. I hope they don't do this anymore, but it's not like the Marine Corps where you have like a

• 51:00Jocko Willink?

  An aggressive cadence.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  An aggressive cadence. You're like singing. Yeah, I wasn't singing no cadence. Um, so I got demoted to master at arms.

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  Chuck, you're probably a solid master at arms.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was good. I was good doing the, uh, back then they had the, uh, I don't even know what they call it, but the like SEAL, did you do the SEAL PT stuff in the morning at boot camp?

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  No, no.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  It's good. They, they had like a, a small debt there and then everyone who wanted to go SEAL program, you go and you work out there because I mean, basically if you're a really fit dude, you're just getting out of shape.

• 51:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  In boot camp. So at least you're getting a little bit there and then you get double rations at the chow hall. Yep.

• 51:40Jocko Willink?

  That's legit.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, I, boot camp, boot camp was easy. Um, you know, I, I was, I'm, I'm the antithesis of you in terms of like, you're a morning person, very clearly a morning person. And, uh, I grew, you know, to be better in the morning, but I was not a morning person. So, you know, one of the, uh, nifty things that I did that I'll pass on to any prospects out there, you could use my trick here was, uh, you know, we had to make our bed every morning, right? And cut those creases and all that stuff. And, uh, one thing I would do is I, I would make my bed and I would just never sleep in it. I slept.

• 52:18Jocko Willink?

  I think everyone did that. Oh, I did that too. Yeah. I think everyone.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Well, I, I slept on top of the bed and then I had this trick, you know, cause they have revly, I think it's at four or something like that in the morning. And I was just so tired and I would post myself underneath the bed. And, uh, like I'm fixing the bed, you know, so if the feet are, are hanging out, I just hang my hand like in the bed. I would just sleep for another 45 minutes. Every day. Um, but yeah, glad to get out of boot camp. Um, and then I went off to, uh, ISA school.

• 52:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, Chuck, in Virginia then.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Damn near. Yep.

• 52:53Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  And so now you must've seen some team guys around there.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  No, you know, uh, no, I, I was on a different side of base there. Um, I didn't have any real interactions. Um, I did at one point. So, you know, in A school, I was teamed up with other guys who wanted to go to BUDS and we were training together and getting back in shape. And, uh, one guy was a like super nature tracker guy. Like, I'm not sure. Have you heard of, uh, Tom Brown? Yeah. He was like, one of those like disciples.

• 53:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, like legit from Tom Brown?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Well,

• 53:30Jocko Willink?

  or just into it?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Really into it, but probably, probably like legit. But, uh, he had us like, he took me in the swamps in Dan Neck. They have legit swamps there and, uh, swam with alligator gar. You know what those are?

• 53:44Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  They're gnarly. They're like, uh, I mean, it's if an alligator and a fish.

• 53:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I was gonna say, isn't it like some kind of weird fish alligator combo?

• 53:53Speaker 01

  It's a prehistoric fish that looks like an alligator and they're, I mean, get like six feet long and they have teeth.

• 53:59Jocko Willink?

  So you swam with these things like, yeah, what? Like they were in the same lake or swamp? Or you were interacting with them? Like what's up?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  I was interacting with them. This guy was like, uh, you know, what's the, the Steve Irwin?

• 54:12Jocko Willink?

  Steve Irwin?

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he,

• 54:14Jocko Willink?

  Of the damn neck swamps.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  He's like petting the alligator gar.

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh damn, right on.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  And, uh, he's like, hey, man. Yeah. Go ahead, do it. I'm like,

• 54:20Jocko Willink?

  Did he go to BUDS, this guy?

• 54:22Speaker 01

  They went to BUDS. I, everyone I went with BUDS with, uh, didn't end up taking there, at, at, at least in my, my class.

• 54:28Jocko Willink?

  That alligator gar shit only goes so far, homie.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, there, there were, uh, I think there were like four or five of us. Great guys. Um, you know, definitely would like to get back in touch with some of those dudes.

• 54:41Jocko Willink?

  So, so you show up to BUDS and how's that welcome aboard?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, it was good. I, I went on, uh, I took a month of leave from A school. So that was like a couple of months there. And during my leave, uh, I went water skiing and now I'm not a doctor, but knowing, cause I've had these injuries since, pretty sure I tore my meniscus. And I showed up to BUDS, you know, just like in a bad spot with my knee. Um, and it wasn't like, you know, I was malingering and not doing shit. I just, I was in pain. So, um, but I had a little while to class up. Had had a few months there and kind of got through that or you know it got you know to a serviceable point and ended up classing up with class two, three, three.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  And this is uh in you know, July. Well, I I guess we classed up in October of two thousand.

• 55:39Jocko Willink?

  October two thousand, you classed up. Chris in that class, two thirty-three?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Uh, he was for a little, he graduated with that class, but he started, I think he started in uh two, three, zero, or three, one, and he rolled back. So after hell week, he rolled into my class and then uh I ended up perforating my eardrum in second phase uh doing the tower drops.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, ear exploded underwater and then so I got rolled out of that class into two, three, four.

• 56:09Jocko Willink?

  How was, so first phase, you kick off first phase. What's going on? Is it hard for you? You feeling like, was your knee healed enough? Anything kick you in the ass?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, man, I felt like, I felt like I excelled in first phase. Like I was very well prepared for that. Everything that I did, that Tyler and I did, it it paid off, man. I mean.

• 56:27Jocko Willink?

  Was Tyler with you?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 56:29Jocko Willink?

  Was he behind you or ahead of you?

• 56:30Speaker 01

  He was behind.

• 56:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a couple of classes behind, but uh, I mean, we had done so much prep and that, that uh, you know, I I was very, very prepared. The one thing you really can't prepare for unless you do it is running in soft sand. Um, but yeah, man, I I was, I I was a good runner and yeah, I say that again with a lot of humility compared to like real runners, but for a two hundred pound man.

• 56:52Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  I was a good runner. Um, swimming was kind of like, was not my thing. So I I'd done a lot of swimming, I, but for whatever reason, you know, in the ocean, uh, I was a bad gider. And so, you know, a two nautical mile ocean swim was probably like two and a half miles and like that was just, I survived every single swim, just barely.

• 57:14Jocko Willink?

  Just seconds away from failure.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Just, just seconds away and it was like, you know, I was, I was giving everything that I had every single swim. Um, but past all the other tests, like uh, you know, all the, the underwater stuff, uh, we'd all done that, man. So like, you know, when you talk about the role that training plays in in preparation, uh, I felt like I had a leg up. I mean, I had done the fifty meter underwater on my own. Um. In fact, Tyler and I both after a night of partying, if you will, both went to the pool straight after that. I did, I don't know, probably sixty underwater. He did like, he did full seventy-five.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  You know, but yeah, we, we'd done all that stuff, very prepared first phase, you know, thought I did pretty well there. In Hell Week, I was like in the Rockstar Boat Crew for a bit. And then I found myself, which you might get a kick out of this, but uh, cause I mean, I'm not like a short dude, like an average height guy.

• 58:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what are you, five-eleven?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Uh, I found myself in the Smurf Crew.

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  How?

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Man, I guess the, uh, with two, three, three, they're like a bunch of giants.

• 58:28Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  And uh,

• 58:29Jocko Willink?

  So you weren't like the towering over the other Smurfs? Cause normally like the Smurfs are like five-five, five-six maybe?

• 58:36Speaker 01

  I was towering.

• 58:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, okay. So you're like boat full on head.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, so come Wednesday night, you know, we're, we're sitting there and I'm just like, you know, we've won like every race up to this point. We're just like cruising, man. And then they're doing like, all right, get in the height line. And they set us up and they're counting. I'm kind of looking around and I'm like looking to my left. I'm like, oh shit. There's only six guys to the left of me. And sure enough, uh, I, I got put in the Smurf Crew for the last, last part of Hell Week and that was absolutely brutal. So, um, now that I'm, you know, here with your audience, I'll just apologize for presumably what all the weird noises I was making, you know, it's just that boat was crushing my neck.

• 59:15Jocko Willink?

  It's freaking gnarly. I could hear the, if you take two rocks and you rub them together, I could hear my neck doing that during Hell Week. And like li- literally that noise. I was like, hmm, this is fucking probably not good. So yeah, be careful of that. Uh, so then you, you make it through Hell Week. Anything crazy happen in Hell Week?

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I, I mean, I guess, uh, I have a good little story. I mean, this is just like one of many of where I'm just doing kind of stupid shit and other people are paying the consequences, but uh, we were doing a, a drill to where you're like, uh, Not sure if it's like a, kind of like escape and evasion. I mean, basically you're, you're trying to go undetected from the instructor staff. You know, like crawling on the old course and for like a mile or something like that. And my, my swim buddy and I, we're like really into it. I mean, we're just like, we're not going to get caught. And you know, they have a bunch of wreckage and stuff out on the old course. And we found a little piece of wreckage, you know, because they have instructors coming with spotlights and doing all that. And so, you know, this guy's,

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  you know, instructors coming in and we're like, all right, you know, dig in and we dig into the sand in this like wreckage. And then I wake up like an hour and a half later because we just passed out. Because like if you, in hell week, if you stop, if you stop for any amount of time, like you're just toast, you're out. So, they, they, you know, at this point they'd gone full admin. Lights are on, they're beating the class, right? And it's like, you know, they're, they're calling out our names. And we come to and it's like, oh shit.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Sorry, guys.

• 1:00:52Jocko Willink?

  Shaq.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  But no, get through hell week alright in one piece. And then went into second phase and,

• 1:01:02Jocko Willink?

  Did, uh, was there anyone that shocked you that they quit? Any of these like, D1 athletes and all that?

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Exactly that, yeah.

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  What'd you say?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  We had our, in two through three, our OIC was a, I think he played, I think he was a quarterback for Notre Dame. Don't, don't remember that guy's name, but he was a big hulking dude. I mean, just like Superman looking guy. And, uh, yeah, he, he went and then there were some guys, you know, guys that went with,

• 1:01:30Jocko Willink?

  Freaking crazy. You're the freaking quarterback at Notre Dame. You're like, you know what? I'm going to be a SEAL. And you tell all your friends and you tell your mom and dad and you tell your girlfriend. And you show up and you freaking quit.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Jocko Willink?

  That's wild.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  There were other guys, you know, the ones that stand out to me, a couple loud mouths. You know, these are the guys that are policing everyone up. You know, because guys aren't squared away and not doing the right thing. Then in hell week, you see, you know, you got the, uh, the car lights. You know, looking at you and you're in the surf and then like you've just seen their silhouette kind of going away. It's like, damn.

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's this whole thing. I did a few podcasts about the psychology of military incompetence. And it's this whole thing about, it's written by a guy that was in World War II who's became a psychologist. But he like talks about how people that are like super orderly and, and like highly authoritarian. Kind of things that you're talking about like, hey, you need to square yourself away. They like things to be followed and then you get into hell week and it's just like total mayhem and their brains can't handle it. And they just quit. That's it. Game over.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, for me, um, you know, people always ask when, whenever, you know, you're talking to a SEAL. For the first time, it's like, it's going to happen within the first two minutes is, did you ever think about quitting? And I can honestly say, no.

• 1:02:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, me neither. I hear guys like everyone thinks about quitting. I'm like, no, a hundred percent. I, not just me, I know all kinds of guys that didn't think about quitting. I guess maybe a lot of guys do, but a lot of guys don't.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Look, if nothing else, I mean, even aside from like, you know, I, I want to do this job and whatever. I mean, just the, uh, you know, not wanting to let people down. And like you said, you're going to do something, not doing it, like all those reasons. I have just no way, man. Yeah.

• 1:03:17Jocko Willink?

  It's just not happening. So then you go from, you, you make it through hell week. Now it's first, uh, second phase diving and what you hurt your eardrum? Is that what you said?

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  I did. Yeah. So we had done the, uh, we had that, they since decommissioned it. I mean, the teams have moved, uh, all that stuff, but, um, they had a tower, the 50 foot tower. And we used to work in that, that, that thing was daunting, man. So we did some work in that in first phase and, and no issues, like went down and tied some knots. And then in second phase, um, they're building up your competence. You know, for all the underwater stuff that we're doing in second phase. So they had a couple of different events and one of them, I think, I think it was just called bottom drops. Where you just go down to the bottom and, uh, I had a cold. And I started to go down and I made it like 20 feet and I'm trying to like Val Salva, you know, to equalize the pressure in my ears and it's not happening. I'm like, well,

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  I have to keep going down.

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  Just keep going, bro.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Keep going. And then that underwater explosion happened in my head and I got vertigo and I was like, all right, I'm going back up and went back up and then, uh, yeah, sure enough, I perforated my eardrum, pulled me out of that class and, uh, man, that two through three of those guys were just a bunch of rock stars and, uh, yeah, so definitely it was hard leaving those guys, but.

• 1:04:32Jocko Willink?

  And so, so would you become friends with Chris at this point?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Uh, not really, not.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  So you guys just knew each other?

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And it was short. I mean, it was only, uh, I don't know how many weeks after Hell Week, but Chris rolled in to two, three, three after Hell Week and then, um, that evolution was like the second week of first, of second phase. Yeah.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  And just the reason I bring that up because I know you guys became, uh, you know, super close and everything. And when we were together, you guys were freaking, ah, you guys were all tight.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. He, he was actually part of the reason, him and one other dude, um, who were in that class. So another guy rolled in when Chris rolled in, ended up being in Charlie Platoon and those two guys are the reason why I found my way to still team three Charlie.

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  Shuck. So you get rolled and now you're in two, three, four. And this is the one with the freaking documentary.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:05:26Jocko Willink?

  So what was that like?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  It was wild. It was, uh, you know, it's such a difference. Uh, two, three, three. I mean, we were just like, we couldn't do anything right. We were just getting beat down. Uh, and two, three, four had a lot of scrutiny on it because there were cameras there. So it was like, it was a different vibe, you know, because cameras were rolling. So it's like, all right, guys, we can't, can't be doing that on camera. But, but the guys were, were amazing. Uh, they were a really small group. So I don't remember how many guys they had rolling out of Hell Week, but it's like 20 or something like that. Really, really small class. And we ended up graduating with 25. Um, but I mean, a lot of great mugs there. Uh, you know, dudes are still keep in touch with, great guys and, uh, but you know, it's tough anytime

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  you're going into a class like that, that, you know, small group that's really tight. You know, it took a little while to kind of.

• 1:06:20Jocko Willink?

  How much were the cameras there?

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 1:06:23Jocko Willink?

  No kidding.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  A lot. Yeah, they they found me. They seemed to find me like during every moment of weakness I had.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  It's all documented.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  It's all documented. Like, none of the hero shit.

• 1:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Now I'm gonna go watch it, bro.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  No, no, you're not.

• 1:06:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, I am. I almost said you screenshots.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  The only like hero shot they they have of me is in the intros. I'm doing like this pirouette and then I just looking just.

• 1:06:47Jocko Willink?

  Just looking badass.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Just looking badass, man. But, you know, they they got me. It's like, like all my low moments. It got me, you know, struggling in pushups. And they got me doing a dive soup check, rolling up with my oxygen, or sorry, my my air bottle's off.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  So I get beef for that. And then the only other time, like I I passed, I passed all the like water tests first time, every time, you know, and anyone who does that says that with a certain amount of pride. But, you know, I had issues during the Drager buddy breathing.

• 1:07:23Jocko Willink?

  So wait, you got through pool week all first time, every time, including pool comp?

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so they really did have cameras flown the whole time?

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Oh, come on.

• 1:07:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm just saying, bro.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  You know, though, I I do have to clear there and I don't want to dime him out here, but on the video, they mistaked me for someone else as failing pool comp. So if you look closely, they have like a quad screen of like OC, whatever it is. And and it shows someone getting pulled up from the surface and you can very clearly see it's not me, but it says Holland. They were just determined to.

• 1:07:55Jocko Willink?

  Make it look like you failed.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so, you know, Drager buddy breathing, they they got me coming up to the surface. So I was the, you know, the the top buddy and and you're passing a rig around basically, and he was kicking it out and I think the hoses got kinked and homeboy wasn't getting no air up top. So that world was like, you know, shrinking down. Starting to fade. So I I came up and they got that on video, you know, me on oxygen. So it's just like. Yeah.

• 1:08:24Jocko Willink?

  Damn, bro. Documented.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but luckily, no one will ever see that after this.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:32Jocko Willink?

  Luckily, they won't.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Just dime myself out, yeah.

• 1:08:36Jocko Willink?

  And so now you're going to third phase, all good there, no factor. Good times at SCI?

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Good times. You know, I had a like one issue. I don't know what it was. Uh, yeah, I grew up shooting like my dad. You know, used to take me to the range a lot, um, but I had like a hard time qualling like on rifles, you know, so it's like. That was one of those moments. Anytime I hadn't failed anything up to that point. So. You know, in the teams, you start to fail something. You get a, the pressure ramps up really quick. And I, I personally think the gun was shot out. You know, I'll, I'll stick with that story, but uh, yeah, aside from that, got through that. Uh, went to, went to SQT after that. Got to do airborne school, you know, I, I felt like I was, I'm definitely not the old guard. Like you're, you're the old, you know, nineties frogman, old guard.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  You know, guys that raised people like myself, but I felt like I got a, you know, the tail end of it in terms of like some of those experiences. So. You know, went to, uh, to airborne school in Georgia.

• 1:09:37Jocko Willink?

  Where were you at when September 11th happens? Cause you must've been in training still. Were you in SQT or were you in BUDS?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I was in SQT. Um, I graduated in, uh, June of 2001 BUDS and we were in SQT.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Getting close to the end there and we were out at Nylund. And we were actually doing some claymore ambush stuff like old school Vietnam shit. And it was one of those overnight evolutions. So go out there, um, do that basically until sunup. So we were cruising back to the compound, made it back. 6:00 AM, you know, 6:15, 6:18, uh. You know, the news was on, the first tower had been hit and, you know, as everyone knows at that point, no one really knew what was going on. Uh, you know, we kind of grabbed breakfast. We're all glued to the screens and then second tower hit, man. And it was, it was very clear at that point. You know, what our career was going to entail after.

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  It was clear to you at that point, even in SQT, you were like, oh, it's on.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  So much so that, uh, we actually had, um, we had a guy in our class quit on, on 9/12.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I mean, everyone knew like we didn't know what

• 1:10:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, to what extent?

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  It was gonna look like. But I mean, it's like shit, you know that we're gonna, we're gonna be in there somewhere getting after it.

• 1:11:03Jocko Willink?

  You had a guy quit.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:05Jocko Willink?

  On nine twelve.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  You know, man.

• 1:11:07Jocko Willink?

  From SQT.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Good on him. There's a, there's a lot of guys, I want to say a lot. Some guys go in for the wrong reasons. You know, and they'll, they'll do a pump. They'll get out and, and when you're in a non wartime situation.

• 1:11:21Jocko Willink?

  All good, no big deal.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  All good. No harm, no foul, man. But you know, you know, you got pending combat and you could be a liability if you're not, if you're not all in. So this guy wasn't all in. And, uh, yeah, so that was, uh, I ended up, I checked into SEAL Team Three, two months later.

• 1:11:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's one of those things. I've, I've had that conversation with a few people over the years. The first time I had it was talking to some woman wanted me to meet with her and and her son wanted to be a SEAL type thing. And she was like, oh, I'd really like to meet. And I was, he was like a friend of a friend of a friend. So I was like, yeah, this is like probably 10 years ago. And I was like, okay, yeah. And I meet with, and the kids like all fired up and stuff, and I could do this many pull ups and I have this swim time and I blah, blah, blah. And I was like, do you want to kill people? And are you ready to die? And it was like both him and the mom were kind of like, they hadn't even, they haven't, they hadn't considered that part of the job. You know what I mean? And that is, that is actually the job.

• 1:12:22Jocko Willink?

  The job is you're gonna kill people and you're, you're gonna put be in harm's way for you and your friends to get wounded and killed. That's what the job is. That's actually what the job is. Everything else is is whatever's training, it's, you know, getting ready. But the actual job is you kill people and you're gonna be in a position where you and your friends could get wounded and killed. And if that's not in the front of your mind, it's not a good job for you, you know, any other reason, any other thing, any other fantasy or vision that you might have. That's not what the job is. The job is you're gonna kill people and you're gonna be in a situation where you and your friends can get killed or wounded. And that's the way it is. So yeah, probably a good call for that guy to freaking bail.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, no doubt.

• 1:13:06Jocko Willink?

  At that juncture.

• 1:13:08Jocko Willink?

  So it was Team Three. And where, when you got to team three, did you, did you go into a workup? Was, did you get thrown into a platoon? How'd that go down?

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I showed up at the end of the pro dev period. So that was November. I think we were starting workup, you know, I don't know, April of the following year. So it was kind of junk time, you know? So it was kind of getting into the holidays. We went right on a trip like within, I think of me, my first week being there, we went on a trip up in central California, Long Coast. May or may not have gotten into some trouble up there, which got some people disbanded from a whole city.

• 1:13:54Jocko Willink?

  Damn, I'm trying to think of what this is. So this is 2001.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, slow incident.

• 1:13:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, was that you guys? Well, there's a couple of slow incidents along.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:03Jocko Willink?

  There were several. There was, there was one where the guys went up and got in a fight with like Tim Kennedy and a bunch of

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Chuck Liddell.

• 1:14:11Jocko Willink?

  Chuck Liddell and a bunch of actual UFC guys.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  I, I take it back. We didn't get people disbanded, but we started, we opened up, you know, the, the can of worms. But yeah, I mean, that, that was like, you know, first trip, welcome to the teams. And yeah, man, we were rocking and rolling. We, we kicked off a workup and then, yeah, CQC was our first block.

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  And, and so now you're with Chris?

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  We are.

• 1:14:40Jocko Willink?

  So this is Chris Kyle. Chris Kyle's in, in, in this platoon. Is Jeremy in there too?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  He is. Yep.

• 1:14:46Jocko Willink?

  Damn. Okay.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:48Jocko Willink?

  So just, you're a new guy. What's, you know, so I talked about like, oh, your job is to kill people and be in position. Let me tell you about the other part of the job. When you're a new guy, an enlisted guy in the SEAL teams, it's a freaking blue collar job, right? You're building pallets, you're moving gear, you're fixing gear, you're fixing motors, you're cleaning gear, you're cleaning motors. It's a, it's like a blue collar, hard work, freaking job. That's what it is. And that's what you're doing. When you're a new guy, you're getting like extra, extra of that. What, what did you get? What was your job in the platoon? Pig gunner?

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like, no doubt. I think at one point they tested me on the radio and they're like, nope.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Not a chance. Yeah. Can you carry heavy things? I'm like, yeah, I can probably do that. Uh, yeah. So I was A W gunner and you know, no quals at all. And I was thrown in, uh, first lieutenant.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  East Coast calls it engineering. Um, but yeah, man, and that was like boats and motors and, uh, I was also, uh, Chris and I were both ISs, intelligence specialists. So, you know, we were in the intel department as well. Um, but yeah.

• 1:15:58Jocko Willink?

  A lot of responsibilities in there for us two new guy. Department guys are like, get a map.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. You have to get the maps and you have to get, you know, chem lights and yeah, it's a very tough job.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You could, you could sell that sounding so cool. Like, well, we were in the, in the intel department. Like, I can imagine you and Chris as new guys in the quote intel department. It's like laminate these maps, you freaking meatballs.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Yep. That was it.

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  There was no Jason Bourne going on there?

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  No, no, not that. No, no Tom Clancy stuff either.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  And so you guys, you guys go through your workup. How's the workup?

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  It was good. It was good. And, you know, that was the first time I felt like I'd kind of gone through buds, you know, relatively unscathed, but you feel the pressure as a new guy.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Did you get your Trident at the end of SQT?

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  I was one of the last guys to get it at the SEAL Team.

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So you showed up, new guy.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  You got, yeah, yeah, yeah. For, uh, man, I want to say the better part of a, of a year. So yeah, walking around without that Trident and earning it and studying for my board. Back then we had a Trident board and, and trying to learn. I mean, that's what you're trying to do as a new guy. You, you think, you know, at that point, uh, you think you know, everything coming from buds, SQT, you're like, man, I am just, I'm ready to rock, ready to run and gun. And you show up to a SEAL Team, to a platoon and you're like, I don't know anything at all. You know, it's like such an, SQT has gotten so much better. Um, and the new guys are way better prepared than we were back in the day. But, you know, we had no exposure to CQC, for example, uh, close quarters combat.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  Until my first platoon. So that was like drinking through a, you know, fire hose and uh, you know, throwing shots and like you're getting counseled. I'm like, you know, holy shit, man. Like I'm going to get booted from the teams. So.

• 1:17:49Jocko Willink?

  They, they kinda want you to think that too. I mean, at least they used to. They used to like want you to think you're probably going to get shit canned. Like that was always kind of a little bit, little bit over your head of like, you, you don't freaking, you throw another shot. You're freaking out of here. You're like, what the, you know, that was a freaking 50, 50 yard shot with a shotgun slug, dude. That's a hard shot, bro. They're like, we, we gotta make these. You're like, cause you do it. You shut up, new guy.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it, man. I mean, it's a,

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  you know, and that, that's the mindset that you want to have. That's, you want guys, you know, not, not to be scared to fail, man, but I mean, it, it matters. And like every, everything is consequential, consequential, everything matters. And you're all in like every second, like there's no, there's no mailing it in, you know?

• 1:18:37Jocko Willink?

  And so also at this point, like you guys must've known you're going to war. I mean, it's like a different workup than it was four months ago. Cause four months ago, and I did a bunch of workups where there's no war going on. And look, you take it seriously. You do your best and, but it's always like, there's a chance, there's some slim chance that you're going to get the big mission and whatever that might be. But for you guys must've been thinking, oh, we're a hundred percent going to war.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  For sure. So we had had guys from team three that had already been to Afghanistan. So, I mean, we, we knew we were getting in something, you know, Iraq hadn't kicked off yet. But yeah, I, there was a different mindset. Now I can't speak to what the teams were prior, but there was a, a certain focus and a certain kind of eminence about what we were doing. So, you know, I was just trying to keep up, man, and making all the usual dumb guy, you know, dumb new guy mistakes and uh, trying to overcome those and, and trying to. Learn the job and you know, I seem to, you know, always find myself in some sort of trouble, uh, you know, just damn near drowned a couple of times as a new guy.

• 1:19:43Jocko Willink?

  How'd you drown as a new guy?

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Man, I, I don't do well with like, you know, a half inch cord underwater, stuff like that. So like, you know, we were.

• 1:19:53Jocko Willink?

  You're like a freaking half inch, half inch nylon freaking magnet you are.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  Dude, so yeah, I mean, like we were, uh, as a new guy, you're carrying all this shit. And so, and if you have a propensity to carry more shit, then you just carry more stuff. So yeah, we're doing dives. I'm carrying a bunch of shit and, uh, we were diving on a rig in the open ocean and, uh, I got caught up, you know, underneath and had to abandon my rig.

• 1:20:20Jocko Willink?

  Damn dude.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Get up to service.

• 1:20:23Jocko Willink?

  Free swimmer, free swimmer, I said?

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a.

• 1:20:26Jocko Willink?

  That's amazing. Oh my God.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  So what was kind of funny about that was, uh, I mean, the guys were up at the surface at that point. So they, they had already gone up, uh, in a controlled manner, like you're supposed to do. And, um, I was kind of stuck down there and the guys running the dive are kind of freaking out a little bit. And you know, you have limited visibility. And so, you know, everyone's kind of like looking down, trying to figure out what to do with me. And then, uh, I kind of popped up and I, I'd kind of floated like behind the group and, uh, not sure if you've seen the, uh, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

• 1:21:00Jocko Willink?

  I'm sure I have.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  When Indy goes over the cliff and they're kind of like all looking over the cliff like, like he's perished. So it was kind of like that moment where I kind of cruised up and you know, with the group and like, hey, what's going on guys? It's like, oh, there you are.

• 1:21:13Jocko Willink?

  Was your rig beanered in down below on the line or whatever?

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that was one time. The, uh, other time we were doing, uh, a sub op, uh, during the big exercise, uh, off the California coast. And, uh, working with boats off of the submarines and, uh, I was the only one in, in a boat, in our inflatable boat and it capsized. And I saw the whole side of a submarine, like way, way too much of a submarine that you should ever see because the sea state was like gnarly. So it flipped the boat and I was like trapped under there. It felt, it felt like minutes. I'm sure it was like only 10 seconds, but, uh, I popped up out of that. My eyeballs were huge.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  You know, so that that was just like how my first platoon went, you know, it's just kind of like always, always on the wrong side of things and a lot of learning. I had some great older guys. You know, my, my first Louis C. Daddy was an amazing, he's an amazing guy, but he, he raised me right. You know, taught me kind of, you know, it didn't take as a new guy, but taught me everything that I knew. Just a really solid guy, some great operators there. But yeah, first platoon was all figuring it out and then eventually we, we deployed and found ourselves over in Kuwait.

• 1:22:33Jocko Willink?

  When did you get there? So the war hasn't kicked off yet.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  No, but they're

• 1:22:37Jocko Willink?

  Staged.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, you know, all this stuff is going on in the news and we don't know what's going on, but it feels like it's, it's going to be happening. So we were there in late 2002.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Ended up doing, I guess it was supporting UN sanctions.

• 1:22:54Jocko Willink?

  So doing shipboardings?

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So we did a shit ton of those and, uh, man, that's just good old school frogman pirate shit, man.

• 1:23:01Jocko Willink?

  Just running around the, what do they call it? The nag. Do you remember that term? Northern Arabian Gulf.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  The sag and the nag.

• 1:23:09Jocko Willink?

  Sag and the nag, running around the nag and the sag in our boats and helicopters, other boats. And going and hitting ships and taking them down and getting control of them.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yep. So, uh, you know, we did that for, for a few months and then, uh, winter set in and then things were starting to build for Iraq and we were starting to, you know, the US had a plan at that point. And we were starting to train and, uh, we had been nominated as the desert patrol vehicle platoon, the Mad Max platoon.

• 1:23:42Jocko Willink?

  The DB TPV. So these are, they're, they're dune buggies. They're like high speed dune buggies that people drive around out at Glamis and there's some kind of racing protocol with those things. There's like a whole group that races like those kinds of vehicles. But we had them in the SEAL teams for a while. We don't have them anymore. We don't have them anymore because for a bunch of reasons. The number one reason is they're they're a racing vehicle, which means they have high standards and very tight tolerances for the way they function and the way they're built. And which means they're gonna, you put them in very tough situations, they're they're gonna have problems. And so they were, they were generally speaking, pretty problematic in terms of their mechanical stability.

• 1:24:26Jocko Willink?

  They broke down a lot. And then on top of that, if you break down anywhere in the world and you need, let's say, a tire or a gasket or a freaking carburetor or whatever you might need, you can't get it. I guess they want carburetor, fuel injector. But if you needed a part for those things, you you couldn't get it. Whereas another vehicle such as a Humvee, you could you get any part, anywhere, take it from another one, like they were just so, there's Humvees everywhere in the military. And so it'd be it'd be almost like if we used weapons with a different type of ammunition. You know, like where are you gonna get your ammo from? So that was kind of the deal with the DPVs. They looked freaking cool. They they always put them in highlight Navy SEAL videos. They put those DPVs everywhere, but.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what, you you wanna see some eyeballs, you, you know, roll onto a base on an army compound and yeah, you look like rock stars, man. They don't know, like, like, everything you said, the upkeep on those things and the capabilities when you weigh them down, yeah.

• 1:25:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. They make them super heavy because they're made to store, they're not four wheel drive. They're not four wheel drive, so they they're made to be light and float over the sand.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:25:33Jocko Willink?

  Once you weigh them down with a bunch of team guys and a bunch of gear and a bunch of rockets and a bunch of ammo, like they just sink in the sand and mud and they just get stuck.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:25:42Jocko Willink?

  And you guys were designated the DPV platoon.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yep.

• 1:25:47Jocko Willink?

  And then you had a plan of what you guys were gonna execute when the war kicked off.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we ended up being part of the, you know, kind of strategic mission to invade Iraq. So we were a part of that, securing some of the onshore sites there. And that was, that was just a, that was a wild kind of week leading up to that because we were on, I mean, just like, you know, SCUD and Gas Alert notice. So we were in mob gear, which is the Kenbio gear in Kuwait. You know, the, you know, US had masked kind of all the troops for the invasion. It was pretty clear that this thing was imminent and Iraq was launching, you know, rockets or SCUDs or whatever they were towards us.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  And we were constantly under the threat of like, you know, getting gassed. So walk around in gas masks and getting jocked up like all the time. So leading up to the, and I have to look at the dates. I feel like the invasion happened on the 21st. Doesn't matter, someone else can fact check it. But anyways, leading up to that night, you know, we were kind of in mob gear the entire night and then we got the call like it's go time. So we got in the DPVs and loaded these things and CH53, the Sea Stallion. And we cruised into Iraq, man.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  And that was, that, you know, there were a couple of times in my career, out of all the things I did, where I just felt that pucker factor and going into, you know, Iraqi national territory, you know, they had anti-air systems and all that shit. And, you know, we were trying to do things to mitigate that. But I was a new guy, you know, in my mob gear, in body armor, strapped in a gunner's seat, in a racing harness with four inches of room on either side in my roll cage.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  And then the DBV was strapped into the 53 with three inches of room on both sides, you know, to the walls in the pitch black dark. And we're and and the call comes over the radio, you know, whatever, you know, whatever code word they they pass over. I mean, like, we've crashed or we've we've crossed the the national territory line there. And then they're throwing chief, yanking and banking. And I don't know if we were taking anti air fire, someone else could. It felt like that because we were doing hard moves. And I just had the realization, man, that's like, like, if we get hit, I'm just, I'm gone. I mean, there's no surviving this. There's no, you

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  know, egressing and swimming out like, just toast.

• 1:28:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's a complete unknown. The first Gulf War that went down, it was like, I was watching the news and they're like, there's gonna be 40,000 casualties in the first 24 hours or 48 hours, something like this. And you just, the the unknown is way worse than the known. And so like, that's a perfect example. Like, we hadn't, you know, you fast forwards three months, even if you fast forward like four days, you're like, okay, they don't really have the capability that they we thought they may have had. But you're a freaking, a new guy. What you just described, being in that DPV strapped into that gunner seat inside of a 53, when that thing is strapped in there, you are doomed.

• 1:29:28Jocko Willink?

  Like doomed. This thing, e- even if that thing successfully crash landed and was on fire, you're never getting out. Like, you are, you are freaking dead. So.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  I like to connect things. Yeah, I'm a big like movie buff guy and in shows and all that. And Band of Brothers had come out prior to that deployment. And I'm not sure if you've seen that and you recall, do you recall the the scene to where they're jumping out?

• 1:29:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Like, that is what

• 1:29:56Jocko Willink?

  How you felt?

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  That's how I felt, is we're getting shot at, like, get me the hell out of here. I want to get on ground like now.

• 1:30:05Jocko Willink?

  That's my overwhelming feeling as a military human. Like, anytime I'm, I'm in a aircraft, airplane, helicopter, vehicle, tank, Bradley, Humvee, I don't like it. I want to be on the ground. I want to be on my feet. I want to be with my platoon. Like, that's it. That's why I'm just, the whole time, I'm just waiting to so I can be on my feet. Because then I feel like we can control what what's what's gonna happen to us.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:30:30Jocko Willink?

  All that other stuff is just in the hands of fate. And it's not a good feeling. For me, it was never a good feeling.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:39Jocko Willink?

  And the one that you just described is a prob- I think that's a worse feeling than I ever had in any of those situations. Like I've flown into places, driven into places. What you just described, I never had that feeling before. I'm trying to think if I have. No, I've never had it that bad before. There's been a couple of times like going into a couple of places where I was like, oh, we're gonna get IED. But not quite. I always feel, I always feel like someone else is gonna get IED. And even if I get IED, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna get out and do awesome, kick ass, right? That's in my little stupid brain. But if you're in a helicopter, that's not happening. If you're strapped into a helicopter, if you're strapped into a DPV in a helicopter, that's strapped into the helicopter, bro, good times.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  So, uh, and, and, you know, going back, they were expecting casualties. You know, I mean, you don't know what you don't know. Uh, we hadn't fought into major conflict. I mean, they were, you know, a year into Afghanistan, that was a much different war. Um, you know, we're fighting a country here. Um, so I really had no clue kind of what we were getting into. And so, yeah, like all that shit's running through your mind and, and having no, like, you know, we'd done a bunch of shipboardings and stuff like that. But having no missions under your belt, I mean, it's just your mind running wild.

• 1:31:54Jocko Willink?

  And what was the mission, by the way? So what'd you guys do? You guys hit the ground, launch the DPVs? What are you guys going to do?

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Basically set security around a facility. That was it. Uh, we were working in conjunction with the Royal Marines and some other folks. Um, and it ended up being, I mean, basically, I won't say a soft target. I mean, there are a lot of guys there, but the, uh, the CAS that happened prior, I mean, just softened kind of all those defenses. So we went in and, yeah, it was pretty, pretty simple mission, actually.

• 1:32:25Jocko Willink?

  Dude's surrendering, dude's dead. What'd you find?

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Both. Yeah, yeah. We didn't, uh, in, in the morning, like, we didn't have any interactions. Uh, you know, we were kind of in the peripheries. Uh, some of the Royal Marines were bringing after it. And then, uh, the sun came up and there was carnage, you know, uh, yeah, I mean, a lot of guys got, uh, the Iraqis uh, just got handled. And then, um, yeah, there were some that had given up and, you know, were being kind of detained and, and worked there. And, uh, and then we started cruising around, uh, you know, I mean, again,

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  We were figuring stuff out and not just like the SEAL teams, but you know, we, we collectively.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  The collective we.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  So we were just kind of like cruising around and we just kind of cruise around without a mission a little bit. And, uh, you know, for all the talk that's gone on for the reasons why we went into Iraq, I'll just tell you this because I have the pictures to prove it is those dudes, and I'm not talking to the Iraqi soldiers, but the people there were stoked to see us there. I mean, they were waving along the roads. You know, they felt liberated. So for, you know, whatever that's worth, that's what happened.

• 1:33:36Jocko Willink?

  And how long did you spend on the ground?

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  Uh, we were there, I think a couple of days, you know, it's kind of fuzzy there. And then we uh, went back to Kuwait, kind of refitted, and then we got launched back out to a place called Naziriyah for a little bit. Um, and just kind of doing a recce shit, like not, not doing any sexy type DA stuff.

• 1:33:59Jocko Willink?

  Still in the DPVs?

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Still in the DPVs. Yeah, we did a, uh, an SR on the, um, the Shata Al Arab waterway that separates, uh, you know, Iran from Iraq. Did that. And that was, that was kind of that deployment, you know? And then, uh, went back home.

• 1:34:20Jocko Willink?

  Did it seem like that the war was going to be over pretty quick?

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did. I mean, I think even before we'd gotten home, I think, uh, you know, President Bush had had the mission accomplished on the, the Lincoln, I think it was. You know, yeah, it, I mean, we cruised, I say we, and I'm talking about the US again. And we had guys, we had other elements that did the road show to Baghdad. And it's like, man, I mean, they were there within a couple of days and had taken over the country. And, uh, you know, we just couldn't hold it.

• 1:34:56Jocko Willink?

  And I wonder, so from your perspective as a new guy, that's a great, like, you're very lucky, right? You're a new guy, you're going into war in your first deployment. Did you realize how cool that was?

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  I did. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I mean, it was a huge mission, you know, maybe not the sexiest mission, but still, I think the largest, you know, NSW mission collectively that we've ever done.

• 1:35:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and to do a mission, any mission at the time was like, you're freaking stoked. So, did, did you, was there anything that you personally, like, lesson learned that really stuck with you from that first work? I mean, I know there's like a thousand little ones, any major ones that you're like, I, I, I need to make sure I do this, that. I mean, obviously you had your guy that was sort of like your C daddy in First Lieutenant, you, who kind of passed on the way of the frogman to you.

• 1:35:51Jocko Willink?

  Anything else in that first, first deployment?

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  I mean, too many to name, not, nothing like big that comes out, but you know, there were just a lot of micro lessons learned and, you know, I, I felt like

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  a stupid new guy during workup. You know, I, I just felt like, you know, there was a lot of pressure going on and by the end of that deployment, I felt like a team guy. Like, I felt like I was starting to get shit and, you know, unfortunately, I just have, have to learn things the hard way. And sometimes it takes me a little bit longer to get there, but I felt by the end of that deployment, I felt very competent. Now, uh, yeah, still like a lot to learn. That's just like, you know, your, your yellow belt, but.

• 1:36:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, uh, the learning curve in your first platoon is freaking steep. It's, you, you can't get ahead of it. Like, no new guy is going to get ahead of the, the power curve when you're a new guy in your first platoon. It's just not, it's not possible. There's too much to know and too much to learn. But, once you're in your second platoon, like, it, it's so much easier. It's like, infinitely easier in your second platoon. It's hard to be behind the power curve in your second platoon. So in your first platoon, you got guys like, there'll be like two, one or two new guys that like, bro, are these guys even going to make it through workup? All the other guys are kind of like fighting to get through workup and then you have, I guess you can have one or two guys that are like, yeah, they're pretty squared away. But by your second platoon, no.

• 1:37:17Jocko Willink?

  No one's doing bad, generally speaking, maybe one out of a hundred is doing bad in their second platoon. Like they made it through their first platoon, you get your second platoon, you're generally speaking, you should be pretty good. You don't have any responsibilities. You don't, you know, you're not really in charge of anything in your second platoon. Or you're not in charge of like leadership. So you can, your second platoon, you should be, you should be a solid team guy in your second platoon.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And, and really what you're trying to get to is you want to be someone that people can rely on. You want to be dependable and you're just trying to get there as fast as you can. And some guys get there, you know, sooner than others and there's a lot of pressure to do that. And I wouldn't have it any other way, man. I mean, that, that's what builds character is, you know, that intense pressure of, do I belong here? Do I have what it takes? What do I need to do to get there? And that, you know, whole kind of evolution kind of makes you who you are.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, come back from that deployment, you're fired up, roll right into your second platoon. Cause that's what you're doing in the team. You go right into your next freaking platoon. Freaking awesome. What, so what's up with your next platoon? Did you get any schools?

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  I did. Yeah. I, I finally got a bunch of schools. Uh, ended up, you know, I, I went to the Hearst School. Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  Check. Helicopters, fast rope propellers. I did that. I, you know, I did the dive soup, ARSO, all those things. The big one I got was, was breacher. So that, that was the one I wanted. Um, that prior platoon was like a very, you know, we, and actually team three had like, uh, just a lot of breachers and a lot of, uh, breacher training that they would do on their own. That was, was not even part of the workup. So, that was something that I was like, man, I, I feel like this is, this could be my thing. You know, I like carrying heavy things. I like breaking shit. Um, So yeah, I I got breacher school. Actually, Jeremy and I went to breacher school.

• 1:39:14Jocko Willink?

  And then Chris, is this when Chris went to sniper school?

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  He did, yeah. Chris, Chris went to sniper. Um, so yeah, it was good, man. I went to breacher school and, you know, so maybe there was a little bit of hangover from my, my new guy, you know, figuring shit out. But I had a close call in breacher school that another like kind of defining moment that, uh, you know, I mean, like you, you know me as, you know, the lead breacher for, for our task unit. And, uh, you know, I went on to, you know, do a lot of real world breaching, but, uh, you know, I got ahead of myself, man. I was, I won't say cocky, but we'd been doing so much breaching at Team Three and in that platoon prior, uh, that I was, I was working on speed, you know, and we got to, we got a couple of

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  weeks in and I was, I was doing really well in the course. And we transitioned from, um, one, one device to another device, which required like a different procedure. And, uh, you know, my mind was like speed. And it's all, all about, you know, I'm just kind of mastering, mastering the, uh, the art of breaching there. And, uh, it was during a rehearsal, but we were doing a rehearsal with a, with a live cap. And I ended up, uh, I mean detonating a cap that shouldn't have been detonated. And Jeremy actually took, took the brunt, um, took a little frag in his leg, peppered him a little bit, but, uh, that was, that

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  was the first wake up call. I mean, that was the first time, uh, in my, you know, going through buds, like no issues in buds. Um, you know, I talked about, I didn't struggle as a new guy, but I mean, certainly I, I had my mess ups there. But this was like a first complacency issue to where I was going too fast. Um, I was rushing through something and I wasn't realizing the full impacts of, you know, making a mistake like that. And you make a mistake with explosives, you make a mistake with a rifle and people can die. People can get maimed and it's happened. Super unfortunate. And I had that happen to me in breacher school and I thought I was going to get booted out. And then you

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  don't know the repercussions after that. Um, but I don't know why they did it. Um, the cadre kept me there. And, you know, maybe it was my performance up to that point. They kept me in and, and I fought my way back. I ended up being one of the, the nominate guys to be like, uh, the lead breachers for the FTX. So I got to be one of those guys, but I mean, you do something like that and you feel like you have to repay it the rest of your career.

• 1:42:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Cause I mean, if that had been a live, uh, explosion, I mean, with a full breaching charge on there, who knows what would have happened to Jeremy?

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  No doubt, no, no doubt. It's not lost to me. And, and again, you know, to jump away and just talk about like training and why we do things the way we do. You know, the crawl, walk, run is there for a reason. And there's a reason why we, we go dry before we go live. And so when mistakes like that happened, they happened with paint and with a cap and not with a, you know, full charge.

• 1:42:34Jocko Willink?

  How's this platoon? So you're still together with Chris, you and Jeremy. Like this, I, I keep bringing this up because you guys were such a prominent piece in Charlie Platoon and Task Unit Bruiser. Like the three of you, you freaking knuckleheads were just like such a cornerstone of the, of the tasking. You guys, I think, well, Jeremy was an E6 at the time, but you guys were like kind of the E5 mafia. The E-dogs making shit happen. And so you guys are, you guys are together in this platoon. You got, your platoon commander at this time is Rob, who's freaking just,

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  Legend.

• 1:43:05Jocko Willink?

  Just freaking outstanding. Um, just a maniac, awesome frogman team guy. And your platoon is, it's kind of mayhem. So, I, I know this because like I, obviously you guys rolled into Task Unit Bruiser. And so I got to see and hear about what your previous deployment was like, but also just knowing you guys and knowing Rob, like, and hearing stories from all, all of you guys. So this was like mayhem. You guys were, you guys were freaking going, going hard.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  We were meat eaters. Yeah. We, we had a great group. Um, yeah, Jeremy and, and Chris and, uh, one other guy, we, we stuck together. So we had a good contingent from, from the prior.

• 1:43:49Jocko Willink?

  Who's the other guy? Jake?

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Uh, no, it just an older guy. I don't want to mention his name just because I don't know if he wants to be mentioned, but, um, yeah. So we had a good group of returning guys. And, but all the older guys had left the platoon, except for my, my C daddy became the LPO.

• 1:44:06Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  So we were in this weird position, right? Uh, that we were like, I think to a certain degree, looked at like these combat seasoned dudes, which was not the case, right? Like we, we'd done a couple of missions, uh, that weren't, you know, super tough that deployment. But I think, I mean, because like when you don't know, I'm sure like, like you've been in nineties frogman, the guys who did shit, like you looked up to it's like, man, I can't believe those guys were on the mission.

• 1:44:34Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Like we had guys that had been in Grenada.

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  Panama.

• 1:44:39Jocko Willink?

  We had guys that had been in, I, I don't think, I never had a guy in a platoon that was in Panama, but I had a guy in a platoon that was in Grenada and I had some guys that were in the first Gulf War. By the way, the combined like combat operation time of both those was like, three days of bo- of everyone. But like you're saying, it was like, hey, they had combat and we didn't. And it's just, you just don't know what you don't know. And you just have to think that this thing is this elevated thing and what's it going to be like and what it was like. And they, they went through it. And so now basically everyone's looking at you guys with that attitude.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it. So I, I mean, we were meat eaters and, uh, and we had a good time, man. And we, we trained hard and, and like any sort of, uh, you know, issues I felt I had as a new guy or lack of confidence or whatever the hell you want to call it, it was just gone. You know, even the preacher shit. Like on- once I got through that and I, I survived all that, you know, it's full steam ahead and just make myself the best team guy I could be. And, and, and like what you said, that second platoon, when you get into your second platoon, it's like things are clicking. And things felt like they were clicking, not just with me, but with our guys. And we were highly functional. You know, I mean, just kicking ass and, and doing really well in all the training blocks and having fun outside the training blocks and, uh, yeah, just full speed ahead, like in all aspects, you know, of team guy workup.

• 1:45:59Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys, did you guys get a, did you guys not get in trouble?

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  That's impressive.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I.

• 1:46:05Jocko Willink?

  That's impressive.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  I don't know what the statute of limitations are for, for, for all the trouble that we've caused during that time, but uh, no, we, we stayed out of trouble. Um, others weren't so lucky. Um, man, lots of, lots of great memories, uh, and I treasure those. And you know, whenever the boys get together, you know, we love bringing up the old shit. I mean, you know, you have to think too, that uh, I've done a lot of reflecting over the years and I feel like especially as the war was ramping up and the mission in Iraq changed such that we were doing like direct action missions. Guys were getting in gunfights, things were getting a lot more dynamic, the wars were ramping up. And you know, kind of going back to what we were talking about, like joining the Navy. I mean, it just felt like,

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  you know, like we were going into the shit. It was, it was imminent. Um, you don't know what's going to happen. So just like live life to the fullest, get every ounce of it. And that's what we were doing, man. We were living hard and fast in all aspects of everything that we're doing. Uh, enjoyed the shit out of it. Glad we didn't get uh, rolled up and that we survived and a lot of great lessons learned and ended up having a pretty good deployment as well.

• 1:47:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, there's no doubt that you have something and look, when you're skydiving and diving and shooting live fire and blowing things up all the time, even in the nineties, even when you, you, you have that feeling in the back of your head like, yeah, you know, and like we're jumping or we're doing whatever on Monday and it's Friday. Freak, let's rock and roll, man. Let's go. Like you're not thinking long-term. You're thinking like, let's, let's enjoy this gig that we're on. So now when the war kicks off, two thousand and one, you're like, you got that, but now it's amplified and intensified by quite a bit. Cause you're going into combat and people are trying to kill you. So. That's like you, you add that to the testosterone.

• 1:48:00Jocko Willink?

  You add that to the freaking, like the friendship brotherhood. You add that to the shenanigans and the good times and you're out, just go out and do something hard. Like just go out and you know, go out and go into the desert and spend whatever four weeks in the desert. Out there, out all day, up and down, hot, dehydrated and all that stuff, hard training. You get back, it's like, oh, we're going to go rock and roll. That's what's going to happen. So all these things combined together, this is get the life of a frogman. And that's what you guys were doing, getting after it.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it, man. I mean, uh. We, we lived a life. That platoon is great.

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  So you're going on deployment and at this point, what year is this like 2005, four?

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, 2004. So at this point, they were taking guys and you would basically do three months in the Pacific and then three months in Iraq. And they, look, in my opinion, they were doing that. It was kind of like the fair fairy had showed up and it was like, hey, we want to make sure everyone gets combat. We want to make sure everyone gets to go to war. And hey, what we'll do is we'll send, because we didn't, no one knew this freaking wars were going to last for 20 years. Right? So they're saying, oh, let's, we'll put you over there for three months, then send the other guys for three months. So that's what you guys did on deployment.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, I think, I don't know if they had this in mind as well, but you think, yeah, not knowing how long the wars are going to last in terms of the benefit to the community and get more guys deployed to combat as well. Yeah.

• 1:49:31Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:49:34Jocko Willink?

  Maybe not a bad move, but if we would have known that the war is going to last 20 years, which eventually, once they figured out the war is going to last 20 years, like you're going on it. Cause it's a big, just the logistics of taking guys.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  So expensive.

• 1:49:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's so expensive and such a pain and, and really in three months, like you're just getting up to speed. So why are we going home? Let's keep, or why are we going to this other AO? Let's keep going.

• 1:49:56Jocko Willink?

  So your typical exercises and stuff over in the Pacific?

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:50:00Jocko Willink?

  Did you go to the Pacific first?

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  I did, yeah, which.

• 1:50:05Jocko Willink?

  I think it's good.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, it.

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, it'd be better to do it the other way.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  It'd be better to go the other way, but at least we had something to look forward to. There's pros and cons, right? Because if you do it the other way and then you're there, he's like, what's the point?

• 1:50:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  Um, but at least we knew we were going to the show and um, yeah, and, and we knew that we were going to be in a spot doing DA's, doing direct action stuff. So had all that look forward to and uh, just kind of buying our, our time until we, we got there. And then uh, yeah, so actually Chris and then the other guy got pulled from our platoon for the push through Fallujah in November 2004. So we were like, just super pissy about that. Hanging on in, in PCOM and uh-

• 1:50:51Jocko Willink?

  Just reading after actions from Chris?

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Yep, yep, yep. And it's like, man. And so uh, eventually we linked up in January and then uh, it was a good little deployment, man. I mean, yeah, we were only there for about three and a half months, but uh, I don't know, did maybe 15 plus DA's and uh, that's where I cut my teeth as a breacher. You know, man, that, that was in, those were like the heydays of doing roll up assaults. Like you're like riding the rails. Um, you know, fast roping on the X, got to do some of that sexy stuff. Um, but I'll tell you what wasn't sexy was my first op as a breacher.

• 1:51:31Jocko Willink?

  Let's go. What went down?

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  Hey, lesson was learned, but uh, so we're, we're rolling up and um, I have my charge on me and we're, we're heading to target. So uh, you know, basically kind of breacher is part of the, the point element, if you will. We, we head to the target and we have to hop over a wall. Well, this wall was pretty short, like a four foot wall. Um, we got a structure there. And I had my nods on, right? This is kind of how we trained, but we, you know, maybe hadn't been using that many walls or hopping over walls. So like the art, the art of the hop hadn't been perfected yet. So I had my stuff like all ready and like I'm good with that. And uh, so I, I roll over the wall, you know, kind of four foot wall that I can kind of walk up to and just kind of like roll over.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  And it was 10 feet on the other side.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  And so I just spilled, you know, uh, you know, ass over kettle or whatever. And it was just a complete mess. So I mean, got up and like, you know, my nods were flopped up and I was catching they had like clotheslines. So it was just like, I did everything wrong.

• 1:52:37Jocko Willink?

  Just Keystone cops.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Just making so much noise and then, um, but I, I made it up to the door. The breach went fine. Breach went good. Uh, you know, the guys didn't leave me enough room, um, to not blow myself up. So, you know, God was a little bit too close, but, um, other than me spilling over the wall, it went pretty good. But, but, but I learned a valuable technique, which I used after that is I would never go over a wall on nods. I mean, you, you look over the wall on nods, but always looking underneath, trying to use that, uh, you know, the depth perception isn't great on those things.

• 1:53:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So after this, you know, uh, first breaching little fiasco, at least over the wall. So what was your op temple like?

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  Uh, I think we were doing a couple ops a week.

• 1:53:25Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, like I said, I don't know the exact number, but we, we did, you know, I don't know, 15, 18, something like that. Um, actually, I mean, those are like going out on missions, but we would often do multiple targets. So I don't know. We did a couple dozen, something like that, DAs and, uh, cut our teeth, man. And that was really, uh, you know, I think team five was kind of like the, uh, you know, the godfather of creating the modern SEAL Team DA. At least that, that's how it was perceived on the West Coast in terms of creating those procedures and, uh, and doing all that stuff. And so, yeah, we got really good at it. And, you know, those were like the good, good old sexy missions, if you will,

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  where you're just rolling it hot, blowing shit up, you know, taking things over with violence of action and, uh, you know, rolling off target with the bounty.

• 1:54:19Jocko Willink?

  It's like 45 minutes, bro. It's like, you know what I mean? It's such immediate gratification and with such limited like downside, you know, like it's just good.

• 1:54:33Speaker 01

  We did one, uh, one kind of unique mission that we were doing a, this was like my first uh, real Overwatch. Where we were, um, we joined up with a, this was just kind of a weird one, but we joined up, actually, I think with the first of the 506 out in, uh, in Habania. So we, we moved around a little bit. And they had a kind of an Overwatch mission, uh, major thoroughfare there. And some separate teams, kind of mutually supporting positions and whatnot. And so we were paired up. It was me and another frogman. And two army guys. And we snuck into a town and I, these guys just do shit different, right? So, uh,

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  snuck into a town, you know, free climbed up like a second story building in the middle of like, you know, like a city square, I guess. And in the morning, to my surprise, the whole city was, surrounded us. Like we were, we were like in an apartment. Overwatching stuff with an active, I mean, there was like, I, I looked out the window at one point, you know, very, very sneakily looked out and below, I mean, they were selling fish. There was like a fish market right below us. And we were in this kind of like abandoned building and, you know, you had guys like kind of all around. It's like, holy shit, man. Yeah. This can get gnarly really, really quick. Um, of course nothing did. I mean, it's pretty, uh, pretty easy mission there, but,

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  um, yeah, other than that, did, did a bunch of DAs. Uh, I didn't get roped into any of the, uh, security type stuff that, that the other dudes were doing. So, yeah, I got lucky.

• 1:56:10Jocko Willink?

  Good. Uh, come home from that deployment and now you roll into, so now it's 2005, I guess. 2004, you might've gotten home, but it's 2005. When we form up. Were you already done? No, because we went, we went to desert like almost immediately. So you guys had already done Pro-Dev. So you probably got home in 2004?

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  No, five.

• 1:56:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I, I deployed, uh, that was a quick turnaround. We had a couple of quick turnarounds, so.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right. There was no Pro-Dev.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we, we came back in, uh, April 2005 and then went right into it.

• 1:56:48Jocko Willink?

  Check. Um, what's cool is you still are with Chris and Jeremy. So, and I, I, I, the triumvirate. So do you know what that means?

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  I think it means three people.

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  It does. So I, once I was like, you know, because Leif used to say it all the time. He's like, oh, it's a triumvirate. And, and I kind of was like, finally, yesterday I was thinking about that and I go, what does this even mean? Where does this come from? And it's like some Roman term for three people that are in a position of power and they had like a bunch of examples, you know, Caesar and this guy and this guy. And so that a hundred percent came from Leif, you know, Leif would only, only Leif at that time had the historical knowledge to come up with triumvirate. Um, so you guys roll in to now it's your third platoon together.

• 1:57:36Jocko Willink?

  Tony's, DTF Tony comes in as the platoon chief. I was thinking about this too. You guys must've been bummed that freaking Rob wasn't going to be your task unit commander and you were getting some freaking random guy. You never heard of me.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, some, some caveman looking guy. Yeah.

• 1:57:50Jocko Willink?

  And, and if you're calling me a caveman and you're comparing me to Rob, like these are the options, there's, there's a lot of Neanderthal activity going on between us two. Uh, yeah, but you guys must've been like, damn, a little bit bummed out because you guys were bros with Rob. You just did a deployment with him. And it's kind of normal that he would just fleet up in the same troop and just take over. I don't know why that, I don't know why it happened the way it did.

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we obviously loved Rob. He was, he was the man. Um, so yeah, I, you know, I don't know how things shook out, but it all worked out.

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  So somehow the Ouija board got, um,

• 1:58:26Jocko Willink?

  I think I just figured out why it might have happened that way, but we can talk offline about it.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I show up as T U commander, Leif shows up as the platoon commander, BTF Tony's your platoon chief. That's kind of a new head shed coming in. And but the cool thing is Jeremy steps, steps us up as the LPO.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Jeremy steps up. Uh, Chris was still there and not only that, but we had all the previous new guys. They all stuck around. So we had the.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we got these freaking.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  We had.

• 1:58:58Jocko Willink?

  Badasses.

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Dude, we had, I mean, the dream team and in these guys, we had a ridiculous amount of quals like, I don't know, like, I think seven breachers and seven snipers. Like we were just.

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Tasting a bruiser ended up with 13 snipers, which is freaking badass.

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Unreal.

• 1:59:16Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's one set of quals.

• 1:59:20Jocko Willink?

  And you guys roll in there and it's cool. You know, that's always a question I get asked a lot about is like, stepping up from being a peer to being a leadership position. How Jeremy handled that? And maybe I'm sure Jeremy will come on the podcast or some, but, but how, how Jeremy handled that from your perspective?

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  I mean, he rocked it, man. He, he stepped right into it. He was, one thing really impressed me about Jeremy was, you know, he was a couple of years younger than me. Um, but when you're in your twenties, that's like a big deal, right? Like I'm 22 and he's 20. Um, but he was a little bit younger and but he.

• 1:59:52Jocko Willink?

  He had made first class and you hadn't basically?

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  What are you saying, man?

• 1:59:55Jocko Willink?

  I'm just wondering though, that's how we got it, right?

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He, he was the highest ranking guy. Um, but definitely the guy for the job, man. I mean, he was kind of a prodigy, if you will, you know, just really solid frogman and he stepped up and did all the things that you would expect, you know, an LPO to do and it, it makes it easier. When you have a good guy that you know is a good guy, right? Like so it he was just easy to work for.

• 2:00:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's freaking stepped right up, but that's a question I get asked all the time like, oh, I'm getting elevated. And you can go, you can go too hard or you can go too soft. You can be like, that's right, I'm in charge now. Or you can be like, oh, I guess I'm in charge. Like, I don't know. And he did a right, the, the, the right balance of like, hey, you know what? I'm, I'm in charge now. I don't know everything, but I gotta make a call and this is what we're doing. You know, like he just did a good.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  It depends the group of guys too, right? Because if you have immature guys and you're not able to respect the position. Um, and also I think Leif did that. I mean, he was like masterful at how he did that in terms of developing good meaningful relationships with people. But doing it in a way that like, there was never any question that he was in charge. And that when it came down to a decision being made, there's a time for discussion. And then there's a time that, you know, this is what we're doing, right? So yeah, Jeremy was good at that. And if you're, if you're a good dude, I mean, that's hopefully how it should roll.

• 2:01:23Jocko Willink?

  And our first trip was straight out to land warfare. And it was just freaking awesome.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:30Jocko Willink?

  I mean, like, everybody was just kicking ass.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I, I just realized the, uh, the never ending march.

• 2:01:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. That was a rough one. Um, especially for guys that maybe didn't take things as seriously as they should have. So we get told, um, that we're gonna do a shakeout patrol. Shakeout patrol is like, oh, we're gonna go make sure our gear feels good, make sure that, you know, our equipment's riding right and walk around, you know, probably be an hour, maybe forty five minutes, something like that.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  This is day one.

• 2:02:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is day one. We just show up out there. So like, hey, we're gonna do a shakeout. They literally say, we're gonna do a shakeout patrol. This is a common thing. Shakeout patrol. The original idea is, hey, make sure your gear's not making any noise. So it's like, go out there, shake, shake it out a little bit, make sure you don't have.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  Go through like the hand and arm signals and like, you know, just, just shake some stuff out.

• 2:02:20Jocko Willink?

  Forty five minutes, hour, something like this.

• 2:02:22Speaker 02

  Would you call it like a practice run?

• 2:02:25Jocko Willink?

  But it's even less than that.

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  It's less than.

• 2:02:27Jocko Willink?

  It's like, it's like just a shakeout. I'm trying to think of a way that if you were a, a. In a school play and they were like, just walk through where you're gonna go.

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:41Jocko Willink?

  You you're not even gonna deliver any lines. You're not gonna sing any songs. If it was football, what what's your football equivalent for Echo Charles?

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  Um, it would be a walk through like a like a Friday, you know, afternoon walk through or something like that.

• 2:02:54Jocko Willink?

  So you you literally shouldn't break a sweat. You shouldn't break a sweat. Should just be, hey, we're cruising. But of me, so I'm like, okay, shake off patrol. What does that mean? Like, I get all my gear totally squared away, like water, everything that I'm gonna be carrying, I'm carrying like I just do what what I'm supposed to do as a good freaking frogman. Not everyone did that. Good life. Lave Favin had had his freaking, he had had his water in his canteens since SQT. And so he he had water and like the first sip he took. Okay, so.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  Putrid.

• 2:03:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the first sip he took, it was like spoiled, like rotten water. Yeah. So so anyways, they they go, hey, we're gonna take you guys out for this shake off patrol. Then they drive us out in the middle of the desert and then they start dropping it off off by pairs and giving us link up points. And it ends up being like an all night evolution, walking all through the desert. And guys like Leif hadn't cleaned his canteens. Other guys just didn't bring water, bagels. Or he'd brought like very little water. And so we end up on this a little bit of a death march. And this is the story that Leif likes to tell is he comes up to me and he's like, hey. He's like, hey, uh, have you got, have you got water?

• 2:04:09Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, yeah. He's like, do you have any spare water? And I was like, why? And he's like, uh, Bagels doesn't have any water. He's he's starting to feel it. And I'm like, and Leif's, Leif's, uh, when he tells the story, I look at him like, is he gonna die? I'm like, is he gonna die? And he's like, no. And I was like, well, tell him to remember to bring his own water next time. So that was one example of, you know, a few things that went down that night. But like Leif was out of water. I don't know. What was your status?

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I run hot, man. I I brought my water, but I burned through it and we marched. I mean, it was hot.

• 2:04:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  And we marched.

• 2:04:47Jocko Willink?

  Not acclimated because it was day one.

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  Not acclimated and yeah, I'm carrying a full, you know. Pig gunner loadout.

• 2:04:53Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  So a third, third platoon, you know, I'm still carrying that pig and uh, yeah, I, I was smoked, man. And then in-

• 2:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Did you go down?

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  No, I didn't go down.

• 2:05:01Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no one actually went down.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 2:05:03Jocko Willink?

  Everyone sucked it up.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  No one down. And then at the end of that, we did like a combat conditioning course, right?

• 2:05:09Jocko Willink?

  I was in them because it was just getting light and they're like, hey, combat conditioning course is next. And I was like, oh, cool.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:05:17Jocko Willink?

  I was like, cool, let's go. Freaking combat conditioning course. Um, hey, also, so we're out there, Biggles is out of shape. And he's like, look dude, you could tell as a new guy, he got done with Bud's and SQT. And was like, I just finished Bud's and SQT. And I'm gonna freaking relax for the next 30 days of leave. And that's exactly what he did. And you know, normal, I was, I was thinking about this, normally in a normal SEAL team, you'd be like, oh, cool. Then you get back to the team and everyone would be in pro dev and you kind of get back into shape and whatever.

• 2:05:56Jocko Willink?

  And you can also think like Biggles, having been a wrestler, he probably like, you know, cut weight and he was like, on that 30 days of leave, he was finding some food, man. He was getting in there and he, he liked to eat. You know what I'm saying? You know, he liked to get, he liked to eat. So he put on some LBs and the very first trip he shows up on is, is for a desert warfare and he's not in shape. And um, he was hurting on that and he was hurting on the combat conditioning course. And so right out of the gate, it was like, this guy's not in shape. And he had a cool attitude. But basically you got assigned to freaking square his ass away, right?

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, tell me about that.

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just got paired up. I mean, it, there was really no program. It, you know, Leif just told me, hey, take, take Ryan under your wing and square him away. So uh, what that meant was is we started running together. And so every, you know, not every day, but you know, several times a week and on every trip, we just ran. So yeah, we, we ran the deserts of uh, of Nyland and Leif just always like said, the image just pops up in my head of- Yeah, we're running with our shirts off down the siphon road and uh, you know, I'm like Portuguese tan, middle summer. And and Biggles is just like glaring, just white, just uncomfortably glowing white down the road.

• 2:07:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's freaking classic.

• 2:07:24Jocko Willink?

  We get, that other story that's freaking classic is freaking Johnny Kim, like you, you guys had just like hazed somebody and

• 2:07:36Speaker 01

  I don't think that's the term that we use.

• 2:07:38Jocko Willink?

  You guys had just hazed somebody and it was like real obvious and everything. And so I actually got the platoon chiefs and SEA and I was like, hey, hey, guys. And so I pulled him aside like, hey, guys, like, I get it, but you can't be dumb. Like you can't be doing this shit. Like it's real obvious, like freaking freaking keep it under control, boys. And they're like, yeah, I got it, got it. And I shit you not, as we're walk, cause Johnny, cause Johnny had been at sniper school. So he showed up late and this, this 20 minute period, I shit you not. The 20 minute period that like, I saw this happen and I was like, dude, you guys, so I go, hey, let me talk to you guys.

• 2:08:17Jocko Willink?

  Muster them outside. We're out freaking standing by the, whatever that tower is. We're standing there like having a little freaking man on man conversation with the khakis. And then during that 20 minutes, Johnny Kim had showed up at the, at, at N Island as a new guy. Late, you know, now he's late, even though he's at a freaking school, but you guys are like, you're freaking late. And I come walking back in and you guys had taken him like shaved half of his head, beat him up or whatever. And I come walking in and I hear someone like, it was actually Chris. Chris is like, go report to the commander. And I'm like, what is going like, that's just a weird thing to hear, you know, cause everybody calls me Jaco. Now I hear like me being referred to as the commander.

• 2:09:01Jocko Willink?

  He's a go, go report to the commander. And I look over and hear, here's freaking Johnny. And I look at him and he's like a little bit shell shocked looking, but also I see like tufts of hair like on his shoulders. And like half of his head, but he's got a hat on and I'm like, Hey bro, how's it going? He's like, sir, I'm Petty Officer Kim. I just got here from sniper school. I'm honored to be a part of this. And I was like, cool, bro. It's awesome to meet you, man. I look forward to working with you. And then just like walked around, I was like, God, I got some freaking out of control knuckleheads, which is kind of what you want. So that was all good, all good.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, good times.

• 2:09:41Jocko Willink?

  But there was some old school bonding going on. Did I say hazing or did I said bonding rituals?

• 2:09:47Speaker 01

  I think you meant bonding.

• 2:09:48Jocko Willink?

  I think you meant bonding rituals. So there's some bonding rituals that took place that were going on. So we get done with that. We freaking gen, um, I think we did, we went out to the desert for vehicles next. Um, mobility, then we go to CQC. Um, and this is when we were still doing CQC out at a civilian place. So that was awesome training.

• 2:10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, great, great workup. That's a good one.

• 2:10:13Jocko Willink?

  We really had an awesome workup. Going to, Mount was also at an army base. So we had a big facility to use out there. And, and this whole time we're having good times as well, um, both on and off the training areas.

• 2:10:33Jocko Willink?

  It was a good crew.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no doubt, man. I mean, the, uh, we had, we had a lot of the energy from that prior platoon. So we were still, you know, a bunch of meat eaters.

• 2:10:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Um, but with a little bit more civility and a little bit more structure.

• 2:10:47Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, I mean, you, you throw Tony into the mix and like, that's just a different, you know, Tony's a freaking animal, right? And I mean, by, by that, I mean, like, he's an, he's like part human, but part animal. Like you want to talk about needing water in the desert? Doesn't drink water.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  No, just coffee and dip.

• 2:11:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, coffee and dip. He's like, oh, we're doing a shakeout patrol. It's gonna be nine days long. Cool. I'm gonna eat dirt. And be good to go, by the way.

• 2:11:12Speaker 01

  So when, when you were talking about, hey, you know, forming up a new platoon, when, when I heard he was going to be our platoon chief, I was like, oh shit, this guy. Cause he had put me through, uh, he was, you know, he was like the desert rat out in Ireland. He did like years at an island and multiple tours probably. And he, he put us through our sixty gunner course, the infamous course. And this was a multi-day course. And, uh, it was hell on earth, man. I mean, while the, the Grenadiers are like, you know, sipping tea.

• 2:11:43Jocko Willink?

  The rifleman.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, the rifleman.

• 2:11:45Jocko Willink?

  Rifleman and Grenadiers.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  What, whatever the hell that they were doing, training for that week and we were just grinding up and down, middle of the summer. Buddy carries and it's just stuff feeding until our like fingers were bleeding. It was awful. And he was just sitting there, you know, just drinking his coffee and dipping and, uh, and then luckily he would give us a break during lunch and we could go unpack, unpack ammo. While everyone else was eating. So, I mean.

• 2:12:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The other thing about that is you might not know how hard he is as a human being. Cause you're like, oh, he's just like sitting up here telling us what to do. But you know, well, well, I'd like to see him do that. And then you.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  And then he does it.

• 2:12:21Jocko Willink?

  Then you realize like, oh, he'll do this. And that freaking, that type of thing, when you, in the SEAL teams, when you have somebody. And there's always someone like this, that's into whatever they're into. Like the breaching is on the backs of like a handful of guys that were just super into breaching and just took it to the next level. The snipers, like there's guys that just, you know, from generation to generation, like someone turns over that school, that train, that block of training is just like. Someone goes in there and takes it over. It's like they love it and they want it to be the best training and AWs and comms guys and everybody.

• 2:12:58Jocko Willink?

  You get these people in the teams that, that create the school or the training for people that just takes it to the next level. Like the AW course is a classic example. The AW course. Could be like a two hour session, maybe a four hour session. You'd be pretty good. You know, you'd be pretty good after four hours of good drills with a, with a heavy machine gun. You'd be like, okay, cool. Like, we're pretty good at this. And most communities would be like, okay, cool. Yeah, we've, we've really trained our automatic weapons gunners to a high level. But when you see what the A W course is like, you think, oh, these guys are literally ready for anything that can happen with an A W. It's freaking awesome. And that's what you end up with.

• 2:13:43Jocko Willink?

  You end up with badass people that have been trained to the nth degree and they're going to be able to

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  crush in any situation.

• 2:13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I didn't know much about Tony's background. So like him coming in, I'm like, you know, is this guy, I'll talk or whatever. And he's certainly not like the hardest frog man I've ever worked with. I mean, the guy is just like what you said, you know? I mean, doesn't need water, doesn't need food. He just, I mean, he does need dip and coffee.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  And that you can run off, you know, for weeks off that.

• 2:14:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so he and I grew up at team one together. So we knew each other. So, but we had never been in a platoon together. But like when I was coming to team three, and I saw that he was one of the platoon chiefs and, and the same thing, like we were both like so freaking stoked. Cause I knew, you know, his reputation as a frog man was awesome, you know? And his reputation as like beating people up and all that, he had that too. But I knew like, hey, cool. We can, you can contend with that. Like you can contend with like, hey dude, can you do me a favor for the next 48 hours? Not punch anyone. And, and here's why. And like, we want to, you know, he'll be like, no, no.

• 2:14:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I'll just sit in my room then. But he gets it, you know? And he did things that were so, one of the things that was so professional, I'll never forget this. I'm out there, we're at, we're doing, um, we're doing mobility. So we're out there at an island with the vehicles. And we were supposed to be setting up like a little mini op or something. And I'm just standing there and Tony's like, hey, and he's talking to Leif and he's like, hey, what we should do is put vehicles here, put vehicle here, send the guys over here, boom, set it up like this. And, uh, Leif's like, yeah, cool. And.

• 2:15:32Jocko Willink?

  He says, and Leif says, hey, why don't you go ahead and, you know, tell a platoon? And Tony's like, no, you go ahead and tell him it'd be better coming from you. And just to have that, that humility for him, he, you know, this was early in the workup. He wants Leif to get that rapport with you guys to be like, oh yeah, Leif knows what he's doing. He's wanting to build up his boss. And there's so many times where people's egos like, LT, you go ahead and stand down, I'll brief. Like, he just didn't play any of that. So, he's hard and tough as hell and an awesome operator, but he also like really truly understood the dynamics of leadership and the dynamics of a frequent SEAL platoon, which was outstanding. Outstanding to see and beautiful to work with.

• 2:16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, uh, you know, we build our kind of leadership blueprint with everyone that we work with, but, you know, mine certainly was heavily influenced with, with Tony's. And I just grew to really respect the hell out of him. Great frogman, great, great leader. And I mean, just like, you know, just a tactical badass.

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. You were, you were mentioning something before we hit record about when we were at Mount and like, I was encouraging you somehow to, to, what was it, an obstacle course that we were doing? A Mount obstacle course? What went down?

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  That's exactly what it was. And I'm surprised that you don't remember this. But we were paired up into groups of three. So it was, I don't remember who the third was, but it was you, I and someone else. And we were in these teams and it was like a combat conditioning course where we're doing all these different obstacles in the mount town. And one of the obstacles was like, we're running up a building and we're rappelling down. And it's a pretty tall building. I mean, I don't know, six stories, something like that. And I don't even know if we had to belay, dude. But yeah, we got up to the roof, we rushed up to the roof and you know, we're trying, trying to, trying to win this damn thing, right? And I don't know, you know, what your motives were, but.

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  You were compelling me to take more slack with the rope. And I mean, mind you, I'm like a trained horse guy. I know my way around a rappel rope. But you were egging me on a little bit and I don't know I complied. So I took, I took a lot of slack and I jumped off that roof. And it must've looked like an eighties action movie, man, because I jumped, I went like two stories down and I disappeared into one of those open windows. And my old shit meter was like going off the charts, man. My eyeballs were big and I was just holding that rope and and it kind of like ricocheted me out. So I, I flew in and then the rope kind of like ricocheted back and I was just like all eyeballs. I just carried on smartly and then went down, but I was like, oh shit.

• 2:18:15Jocko Willink?

  That's classic.

• 2:18:17Speaker 01

  You were obviously messing with me, testing me, a combination of.

• 2:18:20Jocko Willink?

  Probably. I don't really remember it, you know, but for me to be like encouraging people to freaking go hard and do tougher shit. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty standard. But that's also the trip where Tony broke his ankle. And like he tells, he tells the story. He's like, just like hobbles over to the side of the roof and then just goes like

• 2:18:41Jocko Willink?

  to like try and force his broken ankle to heal. It was of course, after he made some kind of speech, like, you know, something happened. He just BTF through it, you know? And sure enough, what did he do? He BTF through it. Just freaking hollering on a broken ankle. Oh, hell yeah.

• 2:18:58Jocko Willink?

  We were set to deploy to Baghdad.

• 2:19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:02Jocko Willink?

  And we went on a PDSS, so like a pre-deployment site survey to Baghdad and met up with the, the special operations guys. It was SEALs and Green Berets that we were going to go and replace. And we were going to be working with this Iraqi counter terror force and very. Let's say a very cookie cutter kind of deployment was set up for us like everything's in place. The guys have been trained, the operations are kind of steady and flowing, and it looked like it was going to be just a really good, solid deployment. And that's what was happening. And so I went over there on pre-deployment, all good, like high five with the guys, yeah, we'll see you guys in a few weeks, come back.

• 2:19:46Jocko Willink?

  When I came back, they had done, for whatever reasons, well, I know the reason, they wanted to unify the entire western part of Iraq under one special operations leader. They chose our leader at SEAL Team Three to be that guy. And now, the opportunity for him was to unify his whole team underneath him in western Iraq in Al Anbar province. And they ended up coming up, he, I got called in, and you guys were on leave. And he's like, hey, there's a chance for you guys to go to Ramadi, if that makes sense to you. And I was like, because I knew what was going on in Ramadi, Ramadi was total mayhem at

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  the time. And I was like, yeah, well, that makes perfect sense to me. And that's what we ended up doing. Now, did you, did you guys, we, I don't even think we had a capability of getting that word to you while you guys were on pre-deployment leave?

• 2:20:40Speaker 01

  No, no, we came back from leave and that was just kind of dropped on us and, you know, didn't really know like what that meant. Hadn't really had time to kind of absorb what the change in mission was. I mean, the original mission was kind of like what I had done the prior deployment. That's what we were expecting to do.

• 2:20:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there was a lot, there was a lot of people that, that was almost like, what's that expression? That was like, two birds in the hand is worth one in the bush. It seemed like that was a real obvious like, hey, this is, we're going to go there, we're going to do this type of mission. It's already going on, like, there's no drama, we could just go and do that. I looked at what you

• 2:21:16Speaker 02

  That was the that was a gross misrepresentation of the expression, but you know, it's kind of the opposite.

• 2:21:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:21:23Speaker 02

  You do you.

• 2:21:25Jocko Willink?

  My boss.

• 2:21:25Speaker 02

  Do you.

• 2:21:26Jocko Willink?

  No, what I'm saying is going to Baghdad was like, oh, this is a good deal. It's already like two, two birds right here, right in our hands. We have this real nice. Kind of easy mission.

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  Two birds in the bush is better than one in the hand.

• 2:21:40Speaker 02

  In the hand, yeah.

• 2:21:40Speaker 01

  The, the, the one in the hand is the unknown.

• 2:21:44Jocko Willink?

  No, the one in the hand, the one in the hand is the one that's known.

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. You said two in the hand is worth one in the bush, which is.

• 2:21:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so I'm all, I'm all jacked up.

• 2:21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, y'all.

• 2:21:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, that's the way it goes sometimes. We had this opportunity to have. One bird in the hand. Now I'm tracking. All right, we have, we could have had one bird in the hand, which was these nice, clean. Simple, straightforward operations in Baghdad, great op tempo. Or we're going to this Wild West area, which was really bad at the time. And the tasking that we were going to be taking over for, they were conducting operations, but it was like really hard for them to get operations approved. They, they were getting out of the wire sometimes, but it was kind of tricky for them to get out. And.

• 2:22:31Jocko Willink?

  It's definitely like, some guys were like, damn, it seemed like we are taking a risk by going to do this other stuff in Ramadi. When we could have just kind of a nice silver platter with cool ops in Baghdad. I looked at it like, hey, there's a lot of bad guys in Ramadi and they're concentrated there. And there's really bad things happening and we can go there and I think we can do a lot of good and do a lot of damage to the enemy. And so I rogered up, you guys all came back and um, we went on deployment. You remember getting there?

• 2:23:06Speaker 01

  No, I, I don't really remember, uh, you know, much about arriving there. Um,

• 2:23:14Speaker 01

  was it the first night that we got into the, uh?

• 2:23:16Jocko Willink?

  I think it was your guys. So I went early with like Tony and like a few guys, like there were some of us went early. And then you guys showed up like four or five days later, something like that. But yeah, we got like, uh, the, there was some assault on the camp. And so we end up with the entire task unit, including tax just up there on the roof, just laying wastes across the river.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Oh, shadow stalker getting kidnapped with like no nods and just shooting from the, uh, the hip. Yeah, I, that was, uh, that was my intro to Ramadi, man. I, I had a feeling that we were going to be getting after it, entire deployment.

• 2:23:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I, I just knew, so when I got there, got on the ground, I realized, you know, some, some, I went and talked to, there was a guy from, um, special operations command who was a friend of mine that was there at the time. And he kind of briefed me what was going on. His intel officer had been my intel officer when I was at SEAL Team Seven. So I knew her well and she told me what was going on. And then I kind of obviously turned over with the, the task unit that was there before us, got a feeling for what was going on and then talking to conventional. So I basically figured out like what we could do that I thought would be very beneficial to the fight, you know?

• 2:24:38Jocko Willink?

  And so by the time you guys got there, I kind of had a pretty good idea of what was going to go down and, and how we could start knocking it out. And I, for, for a while, for a few days, we were, for probably like five, six days, we were actually working for the CO of SEAL Team One. So the SEAL of SEAL Team Three hadn't taken over yet. So there was like five days or six days where we were working for the CO of SEAL Team One, who I kind of knew. And what we tried to do is do as many missions as we could in the first five, six days. So that we developed a precedent of like, hey, we're going to be working a lot. And that's exactly what we did. Um, Leif tells a story about the first op that he ran, which I'm sure you were always a DA and like right outside in Tamim and.

• 2:25:24Jocko Willink?

  Leif was like stressed, like there was paperwork due and there was this due and he was like, you know, he kinda came to me like, dude, we should just like roll this. And I was like, bro, you got this. This is like a literal no brainer. Your platoon knows what to do. You know what to do. Just go knock it out. And he was like, Roger that. And guys went and knocked it out. It was no factor. Came back and he's like, you're right, dude, like, we're ready. And we just did that as much as we could for the next few days. And almost immediately also started doing sniper overwatch positions. The, one of the best things that happened was, Tony took a crew out up in a firecracker. I don't know if you were on this or not, but he took a little sniper overwatch team up in a firecracker. And I was, this was so early.

• 2:26:08Jocko Willink?

  I was meeting the brigade commander for the first time. And when I walked into the talk, they, Tony's element had just killed an IED emplacer in an exact spot or like a block away from where an IED had just killed like three Marines. And this, you, this was like, the timing was impeccable. I'm going into the talk. This radio traffic is coming in. The brigade commander, Colonel Gronski, is hearing this radio traffic that the SEALs just got here and they just killed an IED emplacer, which was right where these, we, we lost these Marines. He looked at me and was like, we need you to go to Eastern Ramadi. And I was like, Roger that, sir. And boom, like, that's kind of, all these little elements kinda got the ball rolling really well. And on top of that, like,

• 2:26:53Jocko Willink?

  going to memorial services right out of the gate for army guys and Marines. That's like one of the first things we did. And that was a real eye opener as well, I think for everybody.

• 2:27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I mean, from my perspective coming in, obviously it was a different kind of deployment than we had done the last, last couple, but uh, you know, you guys made it clear that we were there to, you know, make an impact, whatever, whatever that meant. Um, and getting creative, like what you guys were doing behind the scenes, which I really wasn't super privy to at that point. To find employment that was meaningful and not meaningful to like, you know, um,

• 2:27:31Speaker 01

  Beefing up our evals, you know, doing, doing a bunch of ops that don't really matter. But like what you're saying, I mean, guys, guys were getting, you know, conventional forces were getting, getting hammered pretty good. You know, the Iraqis weren't going out. You know, the effort required us to do some things that, that, you know, we weren't used to doing. But it needed to be done. And I think, you know, us walking away after that, seeing the kind of strategic impact of, of doing that was pretty cool.

• 2:27:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, a great example. So we ended up doing these sniper overwatch positions all over. And when you think about it, how many, how many urban sniper overwatches did we do during workup? The answer is zero. So I was actually talking to a guy the other night. And, you know, we were talking about workup and he's currently going through workup. And I was talking to him and he was sort of like saying, well, hey, we know we've got this thing going on in the world. We got this thing going on in the world. We got this thing going on in the world. It's kind of hard to tell which one to actually prepare for. And I was talking about, I talked, I told this to a few other guys as well.

• 2:28:40Jocko Willink?

  What workup does is it puts you in really challenging situations that you learn to figure out. And if you can take your mark 48 and get it waterproof to swim across the beach at San Clemente Island and go live fire, hit a target somewhere, and then get back in the water and swim back out to a boat, that whole thing is just a bunch of problem solving. That's what it is. It's a bunch of problem solving.

• 2:29:04Speaker 01

  You know, I, I don't think the SR training that we used to do gets enough credit.

• 2:29:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, true.

• 2:29:11Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, I think that was the training. I mean, you'd look at the muscle movements in terms of the, the things that we're doing, the planning, the multi-day missions and all that. The only difference is, is how you're setting up in an urban environment.

• 2:29:24Jocko Willink?

  But when you have to adapt to, oh, we're going to do an OTB, then you have to adapt to going to SR. Then you have to adapt to vehicles, then you adapt to boats, then you adapt to this, then you adapt to this.

• 2:29:34Speaker 01

  You can't do it all.

• 2:29:35Jocko Willink?

  And you can't do it all, but what you learn, what you train to do, sure, you train to do overwatches, or you're trained to do SR, and yes, you're trained to do DAs, but what you're trained to do is you're trained to think, you're trained to adapt, you're trained to learn. That's actually what the workup is, is getting people to learn how to adapt, how to see patterns, how to recognize where they can improve. And that's what workup is. And that's actually what SEAL, like even Bud's, Bud's is like mayhem. How it's, how do you deal with mayhem? How can we take this freaking total chaos of Hell Week and get a headcount? How do we do that? And that's what carries through and that's what we, that's what we're good at.

• 2:30:17Jocko Willink?

  We're good at looking at a shit sandwich and being like, okay, we need to turn this into an operation that we have control over.

• 2:30:22Speaker 01

  Well, us more than others too, I think, you know, we're not mired by doctrine, the teams are, you know, out of all the other soft elements out there, you know, we're probably the least doctrine focused now. That can be bad in some ways.

• 2:30:35Jocko Willink?

  It's bad in some ways, but it sure is good in other ways.

• 2:30:38Speaker 01

  Like what, what you're talking about, I mean, throw us in challenging environments and situations and we're going to figure shit out. And then we'll get better at that down the road.

• 2:30:47Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yeah. Even when we were out of the water for a while, meaning like NSW in general, you know, in the workups, they, we started doing less and less diving and less and less mar ops. And people would talk to me about it, be like, you know, we're not even getting in the water. I was like, hey, man, if we need to get back in the water, we'll get back in the water. We'll figure it out. It'll take, I went through that cycle, you know, it's like, oh, we haven't done OTB in a while. Cool. How do you rig the boats? And you'll go screw it up. And then you're like, hey, we need to put a one inch tubing on nylon around this. And oh yeah, and we need to make sure we prep the motor like this. Oh yeah, cool. Hey, we need to make sure that the chem lights, IR chem lights are, so you, you just relearn it. But because you have an open minded, because you've learned how to adapt, that's what makes it work. And that's really exactly what we did when we got to Ramadi. We were doing operations that.

• 2:31:30Jocko Willink?

  We had to figure out, we were doing, uh, we're interact interoperability with Marines and with Army that we hadn't done. We were using vehicles that we hadn't used, Bradley's tanks. We were using air support that we hadn't used Apache. Like, there's a whole bunch of things that we just had to go, "Okay, how are we gonna work this?" Uh, we, we couldn't be like, "Hey, we know how to do this." We had to be like, "We've never done this before." What, what do you think? What, give us your opinion. How would you execute this mission, Army guy or Marine guy? Like, those Army guys have been there for four months, six months, 10 months. Marines have been there for three months, four months, five months at that time. Like, "Hey, how do you guys think of this? What do you guys think of this?" Learn from them and then go, "Oh, what about this?" And that's really what it was, was like an exercise in adaptability.

• 2:32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:15Jocko Willink?

  The other thing that was interesting is, we show, you know, we do this whole workup as a complete task unit. We get to Ramadi and we split up into five separate elements. A bunch of different, you know, little five, six man elements are, are now running things. And people like you, you were in your third platoon, you end up as like the assault chief for the special mission unit of the Iraqis as a combat advisor, which is a huge freaking responsibility.

• 2:32:45Speaker 01

  That in particular was, was really cool and just kind of dumb luck how it panned out. But yeah, we broke up into different groups there and, you know, we were in a five man mixed element. And with our, uh, special missions platoon, I think they were called, right? The Iraqi element that essentially we were partnered with whenever we were targeting, you know, bad guys to go after. Um, and it gave me a great opportunity. Yeah, I mean, to kind of plan and lead these assaults when I had no business doing that, you know, structurally in terms of like where I was.

• 2:33:19Jocko Willink?

  Structurally you didn't, but experience wise and, uh, level headedness and performance and leadership capability, you were definitely ready to rock and roll, obviously.

• 2:33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that, that was, uh, that was good, man. That was great, great experience. Like, super fortunate that I found myself, um, Yeah, in that group and I was with Leif, always a great time working with Leif and you know, learned so much with him throughout that and I got really into the mission planning process and kind of non sexy stuff, but you know what, like all that stuff, if you're going to do a career in the teams, you know, learning how to do that shit, learning how to, you know, whether it's dealing with products, briefing shit, like I wasn't a great briefer before then and I was probably not great during that, but I got a lot better at it and you know, learning how to run shit, you know, and, and at kind of a higher level and it was cool,

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  you know, got to run some, I mean, task unit size, DAs and, and deal with all that and to have the opportunity to kind of be in the position I was in was, yeah, pretty cool.

• 2:34:23Jocko Willink?

  You were, you threw out a lot of Rambo quotes, it's kind of your thing.

• 2:34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I mean, going back, if, if you were to look at my childhood, you probably would wonder why I didn't go into the Green Berets, you know, I'm a huge Rambo fan.

• 2:34:38Jocko Willink?

  You were, we did a hostage rescue.

• 2:34:42Speaker 01

  We did, yeah.

• 2:34:43Jocko Willink?

  And you, what were you, the, were you the assault lead on that one?

• 2:34:47Speaker 01

  So I wore a couple of different hats on this. This was an interesting one for me. So backing up for the last two platoons, all the direct action missions that we'd done, Chris was the point man. And, you know, I don't recall Chris talking much about in his book, you know, what he did behind the scenes, just to kind of deviate here for a second, because I think it's worth telling is, he was a tremendous like navigator and planner, and not just in like routes to target, but, I mean, you know, like mobility navigation. So like, out of all the convoys and missions that we did on the most treacherous roads in

• 2:35:30Speaker 01

  Iraq, never got hit by an ID. And I give Chris a lot of credit for the deep mission planning he was doing and developing routes and finding the best ways to get us in and out. And yeah, great, great point man, aside from all the stuff he did as a sniper and everything else he did. But this was the first mission. So when we did DAs, generally Chris and I were like inseparable as part of that point element heading up to the assault. We got the mission.

• 2:36:00Jocko Willink?

  You being breach team and him being like point man.

• 2:36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, inseparable.

• 2:36:06Speaker 01

  And for this mission in particular, it was a short notice, time sensitive mission. We didn't have much time to plan or to think on it. And I don't recall exactly why, but we, we broke up. Uh, there was an overwatch contingent.

• 2:36:21Jocko Willink?

  I know why. I know why. Because there was a tall building that had a great vantage point over the target and the target. We had intel that there was like a machine gun nest and there was IEDs around it. And so in order to mitigate that, we didn't want to just hit the target cold. We wanted to get eyes on beyond we, you know, we obviously we tried to get aircraft, but we wanted to get our, that was something I was always into. I was always into like whatever we could, whatever I could do with us.

• 2:36:53Speaker 01

  Organic.

• 2:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Organic. I wanted to do. And so in this particular one, there was a building which we weren't supposed to go into, by the way, but there was a building that was like perfect overwatch to look at the target area.

• 2:37:05Speaker 01

  Is that like a university or something?

• 2:37:07Jocko Willink?

  It was in the university. So there was this, there was an area called the Al Anbar University that we weren't supposed to go into. And you know, sometimes you gotta make a decision where you're going to bend the rules a little bit. This is one of those times I made a decision like, yeah, we're going to bend the rules. There's, it's literally the perfect overwatch for this target building where there was a hostage, where there was reports of IEDs in the courtyard and, and heavy machine gun in, in position in this building. So before we hit this thing, I was like, we need to look and see what, we need to have our own eyes on. And once the assault starts, we need to have overwatch as it's going down in case there is a, uh, machine gun or somewhere there. So that's

• 2:37:50Jocko Willink?

  why that little split took place. Now that, now that you're bringing it up.

• 2:37:54Speaker 01

  Sounds like the worst environment imaginable. And like going back to the little vignette, you know, talking about going over, uh, you know, invading Iraq. Yeah, that was like another moment there because I ended up. Being point man for my first time ever on that op. So I was point man slash breacher. Um, going into what I thought was the worst environment imaginable. Um, ended up not being that bad. Um, but yeah, that was, that was one of those ones, you know, especially now, uh, father to a couple of kids. Um, pretty cool, man. Pretty, pretty cool that we did that. Glad it went, it, it went smooth. We got to target. Um, and you know, it, it always shocked me.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  You know, I, I mean, we, we stormed that entire house, made it to the roof before they even woke up. So a shot wasn't fired. Um, you know, did what we had to do. Um, got the guys, wrapped them up, you know, saved the kid and, uh, yeah, that was, that was a pretty cool one.

• 2:38:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I think I was staged by the Overwatch, which was only like a hundred yards away. But as the assault's going down, I whatever grabbed a couple of guys and I go to get to the breach point of the assault. And you know, 48 seconds goes by or something and the, get the targets, target secure. And then like Leif's calling me like, Jaco Leif, I'm like, go. And he's like jackpot. Meaning we just got the hostage. And at this point, man, I mean, this was, you're always suspect of intel anyways. But I was like, I think I was like jackpot and he's jackpot. And I was like, Roger that. Like freaking hell, hell yeah, let's go. And sure enough, like you said, we, we got the,

• 2:39:36Jocko Willink?

  he was like a 15 or 16 year old kid that had been kidnapped from Fallujah and then taken into this safe house, enemy safe house in Ramadi. And so, yeah, that was a, that was pretty good.

• 2:39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. If I recall, was he like, uh, you know, like the provincial leader's son or something?

• 2:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I want to say it was like the provincial police chief's son or something like this. So he was, his parents were some kind of, um, Some kind of political official and that's why they took him, but.

• 2:40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I may or may not have said, we're Navy SEALs, we're here to get you out.

• 2:40:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and if he would have spoken English, he may have been impressed with that line. But also interesting, Leif pointed this out to me, a couple of years later, the people that we captured went on trial. And they had to have testimony from the assault team that captured them. And so the assault, the, the people that were, were testified was you and Leif. And you and Leif, obviously you couldn't use your real names because then the enemy might, you know, find out who you are. So you guys testified via VTC a couple of years later as Lieutenant Ray Tango. And Petty Officer Second Class Gabriel Cash. Tango and Cash, Echo Charles.

• 2:40:48Speaker 01

  Ray Tango and Gabriel Cash.

• 2:40:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, good times.

• 2:40:55Speaker 01

  You know, that, those are just a little ways to kind of get back, you know?

• 2:40:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta get them back, gotta get them back. Uh, but the op tempo there clearly, I mean, it was really high. We almost, you know, we had guys in the field all the time. Um, you and your team and the other elements, we just had guys going out all the time. Obviously the, the fighting was really heavy. Uh, we, we, we talk about like when I got back and I was talking to one of the, uh, prior enlisted captain over at WarCom who is a machine gunner, SEAL machine gunner in Vietnam. And I'm kind of debriefing with him and, and you know, for us, we always held the, we always thought the guys in Vietnam were just like constant combat. And I was talking to him and he said, you know, I was like, well,

• 2:41:41Jocko Willink?

  like how many, when you were deployed, like how many gunfights did you get in? And he was like, I forget the exact numbers, but he was like, six. And I was like, okay. And I mean, that was like three days in Ramadi. And, um, and I was like, oh, did you, did you, how often did you run out of ammo? And he's like, I never ran out of ammo. And I was like, oh, and we had guys go Winchester on the tigs. A decent amount, like not a regular occurrence, but more often than you'd think.

• 2:42:13Speaker 01

  For sure. And you know, guys were, were too eager to throw that box of ammo whenever we got in a gunfight.

• 2:42:20Jocko Willink?

  Try to get that weight?

• 2:42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause guys were carrying extra rounds and then, you know, we're getting in a gunfight. You just see boxes getting peppered at your back and.

• 2:42:28Jocko Willink?

  What was your, how much did you carry on your person?

• 2:42:31Speaker 01

  500. Yeah. I, man, my first platoon, I'm not even shitting you. It was a thousand rounds and it was like weaved in my kit. It was ridiculous. I couldn't even move, but uh, no, we, we got down, you know, doing a couple of deployments and then the SOP kind of changed a little bit because you have to be mobile enough. You got to, you know, we're hopping over walls. We're running, gunning. Um, so that was usually it.

• 2:43:00Jocko Willink?

  You end up that, that uh, citation that I read in the beginning was you got, you got hit in the leg with shrapnel.

• 2:43:12Jocko Willink?

  You end up getting medevac'd.

• 2:43:15Jocko Willink?

  That was Tony's birthday, by the way.

• 2:43:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:43:17Jocko Willink?

  BTF Tony's happy birthday was big gunfight. That's probably, that's, I guarantee that's the best birthday Tony's ever had.

• 2:43:23Speaker 01

  That's probably like his 50th birthday.

• 2:43:25Jocko Willink?

  He was either, he was either 50 or 21 or like, or like 742 and he's a vampire and he just like lives war to war. You end up, it didn't look bad. Like I remember looking at your knee and I was like, it doesn't look too bad, but it was not good. It was worse than it looked, I should say. So you end up getting medevac'd and sent to Germany. I got an email here.

• 2:43:54Speaker 01

  Oh shit.

• 2:43:55Jocko Willink?

  Sunday, July 23rd, 2006, Leif. Hey man, I talked to Jaco yesterday, gave him the lowdown. I'll repeat myself as usual for you, sir. They were unable to find that tiny fucker with the orthoscopy, orthoscopy. Apparently the shrapnel was on E and E from the scope. So naturally they ripped open the rest of the knee, set up an L ambush and eventually found the little son of a bitch. It was pretty not good. Sounds like it's gonna be a little more recovery time than anticipated. I've talked to the docs here and my basic plan is to hang out here for a few more days, then go to unit two for a few weeks to a month. Or however long it takes to be good enough to walk around and then get flown back to you guys.

• 2:44:38Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if I'll be good enough to op with you guys, but at the very least, I'd like to come back and help out any way I can, even if that means being a talk bitch.

• 2:44:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm figuring I'll know a little bit more in the next couple of weeks. Well, just know on the bright side, I'm in a hospital bed sweating my ass off, being bit by mosquitoes, constipated, and I'm pissing on myself on a regular basis. And luckily, they are underfeeding me with shitty food as well. Now I think I'll go back and lie about my pain so I can get a morphine Percocet cocktail, relax, and itch my full body rash. Hate, hate, hate. Bob.

• 2:45:17Speaker 01

  I'm blown away that you have that.

• 2:45:21Jocko Willink?

  Laff at it.

• 2:45:22Speaker 01

  Oh my god, that's wild. That was, that was a wild time, man.

• 2:45:28Speaker 01

  You know, getting back to it, it was a weird, you know, some shrapnel that found itself right in the middle of my knee and it was hard to get to. And I remember, we had a conversation, you know, they weren't forcing me to go. This was like a decision, like, do what you want. If you leave it in there, it's gonna tear up inside your knee if you want that to happen. But I had a decision to make and that was kind of a tough one. I didn't want to leave the guys. I mean, when you're in it like that and you're going through all that shit, the last thing you want to do is leave the guys. And, you know, we talked about working to be dependable and being one of those

• 2:46:08Speaker 01

  guys that are relied on. So to get pulled out like that, it just sucked. And, you know, they were telling me, they were hopeful, they thought they were gonna be able to get into it with a scope, which is really easy. Throw a scope in there, pull it out. And they weren't able to do that. So it just got a little bit more invasive. But I don't think I've shared this with anyone, that kind of like how those couple of days went. I ended up, I caught a flight to, I think it was a chopper to Balad. And then I took a C-17 medevac plane, which was wild. I mean, if...

• 2:46:49Speaker 01

  No one's fortunate to be on something like that if it's pretty gnarly. You know, basically, the whole 17 was filled with wounded guys that were dead, stretchers stacked like four high all the way across. So to walk on ambulatory with a backpack, you know, just kind of, kind of hit me there. And then had the surgery, you know, was rehabbing, got, got out of that, that awful, I mean, I just, that, that email. I'm gonna have to get a copy of that. It takes me, it takes me back.

• 2:47:23Speaker 01

  But yeah, had, had some, some team guys there that were.

• 2:47:25Jocko Willink?

  Was that, was that in Balad or was that, was that email sent from Balad July 23rd or was that sent from Germany?

• 2:47:31Speaker 01

  No, that was from Germany. Yeah, that, that was post-surgery there. So I, I was in, in the, the hospital there. That's where they sent all the casualties there and recuperating. They, they kept me in the hospital a couple of days and then

• 2:47:44Speaker 01

  they gave me an allowance to go get some clothes because a lot of people that go, I mean, they're like coming off the battlefield and there's not like, hey, go pack a suitcase. And I, I went and grabbed some clothes before they were sending me to the, to the debt over there. And I remember just kind of a funny little note is, they didn't have anything at the exchange. So I just got like some shitty clothes. I looked just like, you know, the, the dudes in Pulp Fiction, you know, Vince and.

• 2:48:10Jocko Willink?

  UC Santa Barbara.

• 2:48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just like a dork walking around Germany, you know, rehab next two weeks there. But, uh, yeah, it, it was tough, tough being away from, from the guys and not knowing what's going on. And, um, and then I got the call from, from Jeremy on, on August 2nd, you know, that Mark was killed. And Biggles had been hit hard and was, was in route to, to Germany. In fact, the same hospital that, um, you know, I, I'd left at that point, I'd been out of the platoon for, uh, two weeks, just over two weeks. So, I mean, kind of a blessing in disguise to be there and to see Ryan and to be there for him.

• 2:48:56Speaker 01

  You know, although, you know, I don't know how cognizant he was. He was in a really, really bad spot. And to be honest with you, it was hard to see him like that, like really tough. But, you know, I also got to be the liaison to his family there, which I know was meaningful to them to hear a voice, someone who knew him, you know, provide a little bit of comfort there. And so, hung out with him for a little bit and then he got shipped to-

• 2:49:25Jocko Willink?

  Was he still in a coma, like medically induced coma at that point?

• 2:49:28Speaker 01

  No, he was awake though, heavily, heavily sedated and making, you know, I mean, just, I had him giggling a little bit, the best that he could kind of giggle, but, you know, he had hoses and all sorts of stuff. And he just looked bad, you know, and definitely not how I saw him last. So, one of the, it was tough, you know, not being there with the guys during that event. It's just one of those things I don't share with the platoon. And, you know, I don't say that lightly, you know, because there's pros and cons to that. Obviously, I wasn't there, you know, wasn't able to help, all that stuff.

• 2:50:13Speaker 01

  But, on the other side, I'm thankful I didn't have to see that.

• 2:50:20Jocko Willink?

  I got another email from you.

• 2:50:24Jocko Willink?

  This is August 9th, 2006.

• 2:50:29Jocko Willink?

  "Lafe, today is Wednesday and we will be on a flight with Mark out of Philadelphia to San Diego. We will get back at about 8 o'clock tonight and transfer him to Greenwood Mortuary. Sorry about the lack of updates. Connectivity has been bad and we've been on the road a lot trying to get down to see Ryan in Bethesda. I will try to call when I can to get through and talk to you guys about what I know. Ryan is getting better bit by bit. He's sitting up. He knows where he is."

• 2:51:23Jocko Willink?

  And he manages to speak to us when we are there, albeit slowly.

• 2:51:29Jocko Willink?

  It's kinda like he's really drunk from his medication. His girlfriend Kelly has been by his side pretty much non-stop, and his family has been there for him too. Every admiral in Spec War is coming to see him. When Dauber, Biff, and I went to see him, we managed to make him laugh a bit, and he gave us a good TU Bruiser fist pound. His spirits are up, generally speaking. His left eye has a huge question. They ask us every time we are there if he could see out of it right after he got shot, and I can't really answer that question. I know the doctors are anxious to talk to Johnny Kim. The bottom line is that sometimes he can see light when they flash it into his left eyelid, and other times not.

• 2:52:15Jocko Willink?

  The current prognosis is not narrow. He may have all, none, or partial vision in his left eye, and is going to be crucial in these next few days to find out for his sake. Mark still doesn't know about his right eye, and he still doesn't know about Mark. Just yesterday, he found out he wasn't still in Iraq. His dad is going to take the burden and tell him all these things as soon as he isn't so heavily sedated, and they are hoping to tell him that his left eye is okay. Everyone is expecting him to be pretty upset, understandably, and his dad has already been asking us if there will be a place for Ryan in Spec War if he only has the use of one eye.

• 2:52:56Jocko Willink?

  One of the captains from WarCom here told him absolutely they will find something.

• 2:53:03Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully, that will help ease the burden when he hears all the bad news at the same time. As much as you can imagine, or as you can imagine, the family is pretty upset, but they are grateful for all the support. There's a guy here, Chris, from Group Two Medical. He is a frogman who has been by their side throughout. He is a pretty good point of contact for you guys if you want the no shit situation. He is also going to escort Mrs. Job out to Mark's funeral. He is great and has really been taking care of Ryan's family. That is about it for, for what we know. As for Mark, you guys know about as much as we do.

• 2:53:44Jocko Willink?

  The memorial and all will be on Saturday. Good to hear the updated version of the video Nick made was sent. We have a ton of Mark's pictures already and we will put something together for the family. We are flying out of, out at five east coast time and get to San Diego at eight. We will make sure to get pics and whatever is handed out at the funeral for all of you guys. Bob.

• 2:54:15Speaker 01

  God, man. Fucking just took me back there. I, I don't know where, I, I'm surprised.

• 2:54:22Speaker 01

  Leif had these, these emails. Um, yeah.

• 2:54:27Speaker 01

  It was a heavy time, man.

• 2:54:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, it's really strange that, like, these emails, I mean, they just get saved. You know, these are, these are like civilian emails that, you know, you were going back and forth with Leif. And lately, like, I have, I have emails that I sent to my wife. And it's very interesting because they're all like, they're, they don't say anything. Like, I know everything that's going on and I'm like, hey, how are you? And it's very strange to see it.

• 2:55:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:03Jocko Willink?

  So you ended up flying home with Mark. Did you fly home with Mark?

• 2:55:07Speaker 01

  I, I wasn't in the, uh,

• 2:55:11Speaker 01

  they call that the Euro flight?

• 2:55:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:13Speaker 01

  Is that what that's called?

• 2:55:13Jocko Willink?

  Angel flight.

• 2:55:14Speaker 01

  It's Angel Flight, sorry. Um, no, I, I wasn't on that. I flew, flew separately.

• 2:55:20Speaker 01

  The, uh, other guys that, that went, you know, left country were the actual escorts.

• 2:55:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because we sent home three guys? Did we send three guys home? I think we sent three guys home.

• 2:55:35Jocko Willink?

  And then like, you know, going to the service, that just had to be

• 2:55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:55:42Jocko Willink?

  So crazy for you.

• 2:55:43Speaker 01

  It was, man, it's uh, how everything went down, you know, um, you know, I left, then this happened and then we're flying back. It was a whirlwind of like every emotion you could possibly be feeling and then on top of that. You know, the other guys spoke at the service. I didn't speak at service and I wasn't capable of it, to be honest with you. So the guys did a really good job, but you know, I was kind of sitting in the back during, during the service. It was, it was fucking weird. Yeah. Yeah. That whole time. And then we buried Mark.

• 2:56:22Speaker 01

  And then the other guys, I think they went back pretty quickly.

• 2:56:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they went back pretty quick.

• 2:56:29Speaker 01

  And, and I hung out and one of the things, my situation, I was trying to stay in Germany. Because we had kind of felt that was my path back.

• 2:56:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like closer.

• 2:56:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like if we're out in Germany, there's a chance getting back. I want to get back. And then I got to San Diego, they don't, they didn't want me to get to go back. So the, you know, doctors wanted me to heal. And then I think the command, yeah, I mean, they just want to, they didn't want to send me back. It was a tough time and I wrestled with it and you know, like that first email, you know, makes it sound like I'm super gung ho and it's that the reality is, is all the shit goes down. It's like a month, something has passed. No one wants me to go back. Like, you know, those kind of demons on my shoulder like, fuck it, man. You know, just hang back. We're creeping in, but I just had this like overwhelming sense of guilt.

• 2:57:28Speaker 01

  You know, and, and knew I had to get back out to the boys and, and felt in maybe some way that that was like maybe, I don't know, some sort of gift that I could give them, you know, some, some sort of positive thing. Not replacing anything, anything like that, but just something positive to bring the platoon that had gone through so much.

• 2:57:50Speaker 01

  And I found my way back. So, uh, thank you guys for, for making that happen. That was, you know, I, I mentioned it prior, but you know, your, your life, there's just these kind of micro decisions and moments that kind of define you, I think in, in little ways. And, uh, I would have regretted not going back, uh, my entire life. I would have regretted that.

• 2:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, it's a representation like when Cowie got wounded, he, he was like in Charlie Med, telling me like, please let me stay. Freaking bagels, blind, like talking to him, like, uh, can I come back? And, you know, you were in a situation where you, you could come back and you did, you know, which is freaking outstanding. Um, and you know, I remember there was definitely resistance. There was definitely resistance from like, and probably for the right reasons. I get it, you know, NSW trying to take care of the force and everything like that. But man, it was, it was freaking good when you came back. I mean, it was freaking good for everything.

• 2:59:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it was good for me and, uh, everything had changed. I mean, that, that's like I said, that is a moment in time. Um, all the shit that I'd been through with Charlie Platoon, everything. Um, the most meaningful moments, I wasn't there, you know? So that's, that's the kind of gap in that kind of, uh, history there. But I, I got to go back and, uh, help the platoon and, and the troop heal. And, and we went back to work.

• 2:59:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:27Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:59:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we went back to work. That was it, man. And that was, um, what we owed to those guys. And it's what we do, man. We're frogmen.

• 2:59:42Jocko Willink?

  And then, I mean, obviously, you know, we weren't done losing guys yet. Cause we had, we had Mikey get killed. Uh, which was another nightmare.

• 2:59:57Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, we, we had a lot of guys get wounded too, you know? I guess Cowie being the worst of the guys that got wounded. A lot of guys got fragged, a lot of guys got, you know, took a hit here. Pretty much. You and Cowie were the only ones that had to leave, right? Anyone else?

• 3:00:16Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 3:00:17Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 3:00:18Speaker 01

  That was it, yeah. Mine was, yeah, I call it the million dollar wound, I mean.

• 3:00:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Other than, obviously, when, when Mikey died, you know? Mike, Doug, they, they were, they were jacked up and they got evacuated. It was the end of deployment, so it, you know, it's like, uh.

• 3:00:36Speaker 01

  Kind of their, their redeployment.

• 3:00:37Jocko Willink?

  It was almost there, it was maybe a few days early. And so.

• 3:00:48Jocko Willink?

  What were you thinking when you came home from that deployment?

• 3:00:53Speaker 01

  And I, I felt like, uh.

• 3:00:57Speaker 01

  I felt like I, I'd seen kind of everything that I needed to see and gotten out of the teams. That's kind of how I was feeling. I was, you know, three platoons deep.

• 3:01:07Speaker 01

  I mean, certainly was in the shit that entire deployment and I was just a little bit kind of, kind of tired and burnt and. I, I'd had a plan. I, I never, I never planned to do a career in the teams. I mean, I, I was like, I got pulled kicking and screaming every reenlistment contract. In like three year intervals until finally it's like, hey dude, just do it, you know?

• 3:01:32Speaker 01

  I was planning on getting out, so I actually got, I had orders to trade at, um, and those got switched over to Bud's.

• 3:01:40Speaker 01

  So I ended up going over to Bud's and, uh, the intent was to finish school, to go back and, and, uh, get my degree. And then to get out and go, go work for my mom who had like a, uh.

• 3:01:54Speaker 01

  A leasing business essentially. So that was, that was kind of the thought. Um, I had a loose plan going into it. Uh, and yeah, you know, I just, I also felt extremely grateful to come back in one piece from, from that deployment and definitely for a couple of years, you know, whenever you've been through something like that, you realize how inconsequential like all this other bullshit that we stress and worry about and all these other things, how they just don't matter, you know? And that's kind of freeing a little bit. Uh, it doesn't last forever though. And then you get caught up in life and all the other bullshit. But I do remember, um, yeah, I, I lifted up. I had a lot of fun as a Buzz instructor, you know?

• 3:02:38Jocko Willink?

  What, where did you work at Buzz?

• 3:02:40Speaker 01

  I ended up being, uh, the pre-phase. It's gone by different names.

• 3:02:44Jocko Willink?

  Pre-Buds, fourth phase, whatever the initial guys are showing up there.

• 3:02:49Speaker 01

  Yep, yep. Um, did that and went to school, uh, joined a dodgeball league, uh, played, played with Leif.

• 3:02:57Jocko Willink?

  Hell yeah.

• 3:02:58Speaker 01

  Down, down in, down in OB, uh, and, and we were just crushing souls in Ocean Beach, man. With these poor, poor hippies who didn't have, uh, health insurance and just bashing faces and, uh...

• 3:03:12Jocko Willink?

  Jack, did you, as you're, as you're at Buzz now, seeing it from the other side, did you work Hell Weeks?

• 3:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:19Jocko Willink?

  What was that like? Like, what did you learn from that?

• 3:03:23Speaker 01

  Uh, man, I remember it, I mean, first of all, seeing behind the scenes is really, really neat to kind of go full circle and to see that other side. But, um, you know, I learned being at Buzz and in Hell Week that you don't know like what guys are actually going to make it through. And I remember a couple of times being surprised and, uh, Chuck Heding was actually one of the guys I remember put through, put through training. And, uh, in Hell Week, he was emaciated. I mean, I, I don't know.

• 3:03:53Jocko Willink?

  Like couldn't hold down his food maybe or something like that?

• 3:03:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if he was sick or had pneumonia or something, but like he lost a lot of weight and was gaunt. And just seeing guys like that power through, it's like, fuck yeah, man. Like this is, teams, teams is great. This is the best organization in the world. So, you know, being able to see that and, uh, it was fun, man. It was good. And, and to be a part of people's history, like if you remember all of your instructors.

• 3:04:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:19Speaker 01

  And hold them to high regard, whether they deserve that or not. You know, that uh, that impression that, that you get from those instructors, it lasts a lifetime. And I still remember my instructors that way. So, um, it was really cool later in my career to run into guys a decade later. And like, hey, you put me through BUDs. Do you remember this? And to hear all the funny, stupid shit that I said and uh, it's good, man. And, and, and sometimes, you know, I mean, guys come back like, hey, I, I remember you telling the story or doing this, man. It's just like, it feels good. It's cool.

• 3:04:49Jocko Willink?

  I, I never worked at BUDs and so I, now, I kinda like, would like to go and work at BUDs right now, just to kinda see what it's like. But it was always kinda like, oh no, I'm in the teams, dude. I'm not gonna go back to BUDs. Why would I do that? But I think you'd learn a lot and, or just not, not even learn a lot, but, or yes, learn a lot, but also just interesting to see. Like I was talking to Andy Stumpf and he was talking about like, he, he was in second phase and did pool comp. And he, he has like all these little things that he can tell you about, oh, when he'd see a guy's like hands do a certain position, he's like, oh, this guy's about to go. Like he's about to bolt to the surface. Oh, if he doesn't bolt to the surface, his hands do that and he doesn't bolt to the surface, oh, that means he's about to like freaking

• 3:05:33Jocko Willink?

  pass out, or he just had all this knowledge about like, watching people in really stressful situations and how they react. And it's just, I mean, you must've seen that in Hell Week. You're like, oh, this guy's about to break. And you can decide like, well, if I say this to him, probably gonna get to the next evolution. If I say that to him, he's about to ring the bell.

• 3:05:52Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and that's what you're trying to do is you're trying to get people, you know, to quit essentially. You're, you're trying to create that environment that people reach that moment of despair and either Charlie, Mike through, or they quit. I mean, that's, that's what, that's what the selection program is trying to do.

• 3:06:09Jocko Willink?

  And people will say like, huh, my, my son's going to BUDs. Could you have any advice for him? Or like, I'm going, going to BUDs. Do you have any advice? And I was like, yeah, don't quit. That's the freaking advice. Don't quit.

• 3:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Train, train, prepare yourself and don't quit.

• 3:06:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't quit.

• 3:06:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's, there is no magic sauce.

• 3:06:24Jocko Willink?

  Don't quit. That's magic.

• 3:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:06:26Jocko Willink?

  Don't quit.

• 3:06:31Jocko Willink?

  So now you're, you're, you're saying you were planning to get out?

• 3:06:34Speaker 01

  I was, yeah. So, uh, I had a three-year tour, uh, set at Bud's and, uh, yeah, I'm supposed to get out and I think 2009 or 10. Um, and then the market tanked for one. There, there were some contributing factors. And then, uh, more importantly, Leif recruited me to stay in.

• 3:06:58Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah.

• 3:06:58Speaker 01

  Um, he was going back to, he was the opso, I believe the opso at Team One. And he was, uh, fleeting up to be the XO and, and this was his pitch is, uh, hey man, you know, come back. I'm going to pair you with Jeremy. You do a platoon together. Um, and that's exactly what he did.

• 3:07:17Jocko Willink?

  That's a solid pitch.

• 3:07:18Speaker 01

  It's a solid pitch. And I was like, you know, this whole getting out thing, the economy tanking. You know, what's another couple more years? Um, and that was also my opportunity to do a leadership tour, a true like leadership tour, um, as the leading petty officer. So, uh, got pulled over there. Actually, I left, uh, I started kind of doing like a mini workup. Once I knew I was like going to the team, I'm like, all right. You know, cause you don't go to Bud's to get sharp for SEAL shit. So I started kind of doing, doing some, uh, kind of workup stuff, jumped on a couple of trips and then I wanted to,

• 3:07:57Speaker 01

  you know, I, I wanted to get the Bud's stink off me a little bit. So I found my way, uh, snuck on Team One's deployment. They were deploying in 2009, um, as just a strap hanger, basically. And I did, did a couple of months, uh, went out to Afghanistan.

• 3:08:14Speaker 01

  Didn't do anything out there, to be honest with you, but, uh, you know, it gave me a chance to kind of get out there and, and get away from Bud's a little bit, interact with the team that I was going to be working at. And then, uh, yeah, Jeremy and I linked up and, and we, we did a bump.

• 3:08:29Jocko Willink?

  That's freaking ridiculous. I mean, yeah, that's just awesome. Doing a, doing a deployment with you're the LPO and your, your best friends, the freaking platoon chief.

• 3:08:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was in all, I was in all of Jeremy's platoons, so.

• 3:08:44Jocko Willink?

  Damn dude.

• 3:08:45Speaker 01

  It's pretty cool.

• 3:08:46Jocko Willink?

  Freaking impressive. Um, and now you guys are just kicking ass because normally there's like this whole period the platoon has to go through where everyone got to get to know each other. The leadership's got to learn to work together and they're having their little ego, but you guys just roll right in a hundred percent on, not to mention all your SOPs, you're like, hey, this is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it. That must've been ridiculous.

• 3:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it was great, man. I mean, there was no, no conflict at all between Jeremy and I and, you know, we, we rock and rolled and it, it made us a strong platoon. Uh, you know, we had a great OIC, good, good group of dudes and yeah, man, I, it, it went really well and it really neat and, you know, I'll take working with people that I know, especially good people, you know, go back to the old two, two birds in the bush, one, one in hand thing.

• 3:09:31Jocko Willink?

  What is it? Five birds in a bush and one in the, three in the hands? What is it?

• 3:09:35Speaker 01

  Every day of the week. So we, we were set up for, for success. Uh, you know, had a good workup. Shit got a little bit weird around deployment just because, uh, of world events and some, some changing things, but we were supposed to deploy, uh, we did our whole workup, um, you know, thinking we were deploying to Afghanistan. So Afghanistan was heating back up. Um, this was an area that, uh, I was excited to go operate in. You know, I mean, just austere. Um, so I was really pumped to get, get a chance to go there. Um, the troop we were in, um, some of the guys had been there prior, so.

• 3:10:11Speaker 01

  Um, but it didn't, it didn't work out that way. We ended up, for whatever reason, there was a, a delay in our deployment. They swapped shit around, shit happens. Um, and we didn't deploy on schedule. In fact, it was like several months later. So bags, bags were packed and, um, this is actually when I was introduced to, to golf.

• 3:10:34Jocko Willink?

  Who introduced you to golf besides Navy SEALs, the movie?

• 3:10:38Speaker 01

  Do you need anything else?

• 3:10:42Speaker 01

  So I

• 3:10:42Jocko Willink?

  Was there a guy in the platoon or something that was

• 3:10:44Speaker 01

  You know, the, uh, I, I don't remember exactly who it was, but our, our bags were packed, like the ashes were packed. We were ready to deploy. I mean, that, that's where we were. Workout was done. You're deploying. And then I guess we were waiting on a deployment order. And it was like, it's like a, we're deploying on Monday and then we show up on Monday. It's like, no, you know, wait 72 hours. And then that just kept going and going and going. Um, so our bags were packed. It's like, what else are we going to do? Someone recommended that we go play golf. I don't remember whose idea was, and I don't really think I gave a shit, but, uh, once I got out there, man, got hooked.

• 3:11:19Jocko Willink?

  It got you, huh?

• 3:11:20Speaker 01

  It, it got me. I mean, that, that round, it got me. I think I hit one, one ball. I was like, damn.

• 3:11:25Jocko Willink?

  That felt good.

• 3:11:27Speaker 01

  That felt good.

• 3:11:27Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you play? North Island?

• 3:11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:11:30Jocko Willink?

  That's a nice place to play. I mean, I guess, right? I'm not a golfer, but it seems like a nice place to play. You're in Coronado.

• 3:11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.

• 3:11:38Jocko Willink?

  So you got your little, uh, introduction to golf. How, like, did you get, did you go out and buy clubs and stuff?

• 3:11:44Speaker 01

  I went and I got, uh, I went to like a, a golf store and I got used clubs. Yeah. Like that same night, I think.

• 3:11:52Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I went out, I got some junk clubs and then just started, started whacking around. Now we obviously had a pending deployment, so, uh, you know, I think we actually went to, they had like a couple of, uh, charity things that we went to, went to a couple of golf events. Actually, the platoon went, um, and I actually, we, we ended up deploying, we deployed to Iraq and I brought my golf clubs.

• 3:12:17Jocko Willink?

  Damn. Dude, yeah, golf is a thing. It's something I never talked, golf is a thing in the teams for like certain team guys. They just, look, there's team guys that are into archery. There's team guys that are in jujitsu. There's team guys that are into, uh, skydiving. There's team guys that are into golf and, and motorcycles. Like there's little cliques of guys, but golf is absolutely on the list. Actually, I got a friend that was a older guy, not quite a Vietnam guy, but like a little bit after Vietnam. But he tells this story, his, his wife, um, like whatever, a- after 13 years or something. She, he comes home from work and like his shit is sitting outside in the yard and she says, I hate the teams. I hate golf and I hate you.

• 3:13:03Jocko Willink?

  That was it, bro, getting divorced. But that's like a team guy thing, right? Like, oh, what do you care about? The teams and then golf. And for me, it's like, oh, the teams and jujitsu. And some guys like the teams and motorcycles. They put all their money into motorcycles or golf or whatever, and that's what they're doing all the time. And it's, but, but golf is definitely one of the things. Like, there's guys that surf in the teams. What else? What are other little hobbies? Surfing, jujitsu, these are mine, jumping. Golf is in there, man. For some reason, golf is in there. But like spearfishing.

• 3:13:36Speaker 01

  I'll tell you why, man. Because the more you get into it, it's hard. And I say this with a grain of salt, like a huge one, he's like, alright. How, how hard is golf? It's challenging.

• 3:13:46Jocko Willink?

  It's a mental game, though.

• 3:13:47Speaker 01

  It's a mental game. I mean, there's a physical component. There's a lot of strategy to it. I mean, there's a lot of shit going on. And that golf swing that has to happen, you know, all within a split second. And it's frustrating. And to be a frogman or some type A dude who thinks that he can conquer the world. And then you hovering over this ball and you can't make it do what it should do. It doesn't seem right. And that, that's it. Like, that, that's what got me. It's like, fuck this, man.

• 3:14:13Jocko Willink?

  Was anyone, when you went for the first time, was anyone good at it?

• 3:14:17Speaker 01

  Uh, there, there were a couple of guys in the platoon. Yeah. And there's some competitions. Like, oh, that guy, that guy can hit a ball? I can do that.

• 3:14:26Jocko Willink?

  That deployment, you go to Iraq?

• 3:14:28Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 3:14:28Jocko Willink?

  And this is now, this is now like 2010, 2011, 2012.

• 3:14:32Speaker 01

  Eleven.

• 3:14:33Jocko Willink?

  2011, you're going on deployment.

• 3:14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we were, uh.

• 3:14:36Jocko Willink?

  So Iraq is kind of shutting down. Did you guys close it down?

• 3:14:39Speaker 01

  It is actually shut down. So we had, uh, Jeremy and I, I don't know, I mean, someone else can come out and be like, eh. I had that distinction as well, but I mean, we were the two guys that had the distinction of starting and ending like a war, kind of. Cause we were there during the invasion and we were part of the last element when they closed down December, whatever it was, 2011. Made a nice little certificate about it and then.

• 3:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys leave Iraq on that deployment? Like you personally, you and Jeremy personally, like left Iraq and went somewhere else?

• 3:15:15Speaker 01

  We closed it down and we redeployed it.

• 3:15:18Jocko Willink?

  Where, so you went back to America?

• 3:15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:15:20Jocko Willink?

  So that was it? And you were the last troops there, like, I mean?

• 3:15:23Speaker 01

  Mission accomplished.

• 3:15:24Jocko Willink?

  Mission accomplished.

• 3:15:27Jocko Willink?

  Well, did you do anything good on that deployment? Or was everything kind of like winding down?

• 3:15:30Speaker 01

  Nothing sexy. It was winding down and it was like catch and release. So we were grabbing bad dudes, but because of the inner squabbling and politics, they were getting released. So it's kind of like, what are we doing? What's the point? Kind of sucked, but we did have, what was really neat, was we were the last show in town in terms of SOF. And again, there may have been another element or something out there, but pretty much the last show in town. And, but all the assets were still there. So like, all these great assets, we had everything.

• 3:16:04Jocko Willink?

  That's sweet.

• 3:16:05Speaker 01

  I mean, all sorts of overhead stuff, like everything that you, everything we wanted for every deployment, we had at our disposal. So it was really neat to kind of run the mission like that with having too much shit. But yeah, it was kind of anticlimactic. We, we closed it down and, and head back and that was it. Short deployment too.

• 3:16:26Jocko Willink?

  And then you roll right into another deployment. Did you make chief during that deployment?

• 3:16:32Speaker 01

  I did. I, I made chief right before we deployed. So we ended up, I got, I actually got sent to Southern Iraq for a month or two and had my own debt. So I was a chief, had my own debt. That was a really neat fill into like, all right, I got my group and kind of like a prelude to being a platoon chief. And then we, we joined forces, I think in Baghdad with the entire platoon and then be feed. And then, yeah, I, I got back and by that point, the, the incoming CMC just asked me, hey, do you want, do you want a spot? And you don't turn down spots.

• 3:17:07Jocko Willink?

  Hell no, not for a platoon chief.

• 3:17:09Speaker 01

  No, but there was a caveat.

• 3:17:10Jocko Willink?

  Uh oh.

• 3:17:11Speaker 01

  We were, we were reorging the team. Iraq was closed down and they were looking to get back towards the Pacific with our team in particular. So that was the catch. Like, hey, if you're standing team one,

• 3:17:25Speaker 01

  this is what's happening. Do you want in? And I was like, yeah, man, I'm in.

• 3:17:28Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Platoon chief, how'd that feel?

• 3:17:31Speaker 01

  Felt great. I mean, that, that is, for me, that was the pinnacle, you know, when being in a listed SEAL. You know, that was everything I wanted to be was to run your own platoon and you feel like, you know, doing all the platoons and workups and deployments prior, you feel prepared and all those lessons learned and everything I learned from Tony and my other chiefs and Leif and and everyone else had kind of prepared me for that moment. So it's just an awesome feeling to now have this thing that is your own. And I say that, I mean, you have an OIC, there's shared responsibility.

• 3:18:09Speaker 01

  It's your platoon, but you know, the platoon chief is really running those platoons and has a heavy amount of influence. So to be able to take all the lessons learned and kind of infuse that in that time,

• 3:18:24Speaker 01

  which is awesome, man. And kind of the honor honestly of my career of all the shit I did. One of the most rewarding things I did, you know, even aside from the combat stuff was to be able to to raise a platoon and to do it the way that you think is right.

• 3:18:40Speaker 01

  And had a great group of guys, man. We had a lot of fun. We made that, you know, it was challenging managing expectations with guys that, you know, didn't have a combat deployment. We had a lot of guys who didn't have a lot of combat experience. Being told that they're not going, you know, to the show for this deployment. So in terms of the leadership challenge of getting people on board with, you know, this new mission, this new mission for us is to go here and do this. And while that may not be sexy like this other stuff, it's important and here's why. And going through all that and and doing it like in a genuine way that people weren't like, this guy's just selling out and this is all bullshit. Everything we do doesn't matter. And ultimately,

• 3:19:26Speaker 01

  you know, we trained hard and we did things the right way and we did all this shit. To be a good platoon, which is what you should be doing is training hard, making yourself better. You know, as an operator, as a platoon. Um, so I think we did well with that.

• 3:19:39Jocko Willink?

  I was, um, talking to a guy that was in that platoon and, uh, apparently you guys got a lot of, um, Arnold on, a lot of pumping iron and a lot of Predator. So you just kept the, you kept the theme going. The action theme going through the whole, through your whole career.

• 3:19:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. So I, again, I've been a movie buff, you know, so every time I could infuse something into it. Uh, something we used to do is, uh, we would roll out to training evolutions, playing the theme song from Predator.

• 3:20:13Jocko Willink?

  What is that? The dun dun dun? What is that one?

• 3:20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:20:15Jocko Willink?

  What's the?

• 3:20:16Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna do it. Come on, I know it. I don't want to do it either.

• 3:20:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you guys are weak.

• 3:20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 3:20:24Jocko Willink?

  Apparently you, uh, and I tried to get ahold of this, your Charlie Platoon manifesto, which I'm sure we'll get, I'll get ahold of it at some point. Somebody will have a copy of it, but laying out, hey, this is what a frogman is. This is what's expected of you guys. Uh, from what I understand, that left a big mark on the boys that you, that worked for you.

• 3:20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you kind of don't know what's, what's going to stick and, you know, it was cool to see that thing still exists and someone has a copy of it. Um, but yeah, I did my best. I felt, I felt obligated, everything that I had kind of seen and learned and kind of where the teams were kind of evolving and the different experiences that guys were showing up and, you know, the different experience that I was kind of bringing. I felt obligated to, to pass whatever I could along.

• 3:21:11Speaker 01

  And you know, you spend the better part of 12 years in the teams, you're going to see a lot of things done poorly and you're going to see a lot of things done well. So, um, yeah, you know, I, I mean, I was telling you, nothing pales in comparison to all the great stuff that, that you've written, but, um, yeah, I tried to, tried to leave a little, little mark there and, uh, I'll tell you what, man, it's just so cool now to see, now that I've moved on to see these guys leading platoons and to be, and to lead the community. Um, how that goes full circle. Um, it wasn't always easy, man, you know? But really, really cool to, to see that happen.

• 3:21:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like they, um, I know you made a patch for that. What was your patch that, that you made for the team one? What was it?

• 3:21:56Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, the, the Bravo one was, uh, weird. It was just kind of a hodgepodge. Um, but the, the Charlie patch that I, well, I, I won't say I, and we've, although heavily influenced by, by the platoon chief, was a TCB, which is, uh, Elvis slang for taking care of business in a flash. So, we were Charlie platoon, so there was a big emphasis on the C and the patch. And we had the lightning bolt and, uh, yeah, that was us.

• 3:22:24Jocko Willink?

  I forgot to do the whole Elvis thing. Like in tasking a bruiser, we had, you guys got the freaking card. Cause you're an Elvis fan. You got this freaking cardboard cutout. It was in the, it was in the, like, our, our planning area in Ramadi, a freaking cardboard cutout of Elvis.

• 3:22:39Speaker 01

  The king made it to Ramadi, but he didn't make it back. I, I don't know where he ended up unless someone has been holding him hostage for 18 years.

• 3:22:48Jocko Willink?

  And you guys hit Graceland and work up too.

• 3:22:50Speaker 01

  All the time. Yeah. I, I was, uh, I, I am a big Elvis fan, especially like late seventies. Or not, not, yeah, yeah. Mid, mid, late seventies where, you know, the, the tempo just, he's going with it. Um, but yeah, I, I went to Graceland for three workups. Went with, uh, with Johnny and some of the boys and, and Leif, um, that last one for sure.

• 3:23:12Jocko Willink?

  Fired up. Is that where you guys got the, is that when you got the, the cardboard cutout?

• 3:23:16Speaker 01

  I, that was probably Leif's doing. Yeah. Leif was really good about that, but, uh, yeah, I, I think Leif got it.

• 3:23:22Jocko Willink?

  Check. Um, so you got this, this manifesto going on. Um, and now this is like 2012. You said that's, this is when your dad died, right? 2012.

• 3:23:34Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah. So, uh, my dad, you know, I told this story, uh, a while ago, but, um, you know, just suffered from alcohol, alcoholism his entire life. So that was, that was his, he carried a lot of burden, abandonment, loss of his brother.

• 3:23:52Speaker 01

  He didn't pass that down to me like in a way that was damaging to me, other than seeing him, you know, hurt himself over that period. But, you know, he had a problem with alcohol my entire life and went into the teams and he tried to, tried to get sober. Like this is in 2004, a week before my second deployment and, you know, not knowing what I know now, especially about coming off of alcohol and, and other drugs is you can't just cold, you can't quit cold turkey. And he gave himself a stroke. So 2004, gave himself a stroke and was just like, from that point on, from 2004

• 3:24:31Speaker 01

  to 2008, ended up divorcing his wife. It, it just got bad, you know, so he, he was just, and it wasn't even, there was booze involved, but he was heavily medicated. They didn't know what to do with him. And there was like a lot of 51 50 shit over those years where he was getting, getting picked up on the street, you know, just, just suffering, man. So me, 2012, basically his, his organs gave out and wound it up in, in the hospital and they were keeping him, you know, on life support. So I was in workup when that happened and pulled myself out, went home and,

• 3:25:15Speaker 01

  you know, my brother and I, I mean, basically pulled the plug on my dad. And, and then, you know, a couple of days later did a celebration of life for him. And then I went right back to the platoon. So like not much of a break or time to wallow for that. You know, my, my dad and I, we, we left on, on good terms. You know, I mean, he was, he was a loving dad, did, did a lot of great things, right? Like raised me right in a lot of ways. I get all my manners, you know, from him. Those good old Texas manners. Taught me how to fish, shoot. You know, so obviously

• 3:25:57Speaker 01

  losing anyone's stuff, losing your dad is tough. And that was, that was a rough time, man. You know, it was. That that period, that year, it just, the hits kept coming. You know, there, there was a bright, bright spot. My, my second kid was born six months after I lost my dad. So, you know, that, that was great.

• 3:26:21Speaker 01

  But then just three months after that, you know, Chris was murdered.

• 3:26:27Jocko Willink?

  Where were you when you heard about that?

• 3:26:30Speaker 01

  Uh, we were on workup. We were just in San Diego. Um, I, I don't recall.

• 3:26:37Speaker 01

  Shit, you know, it was a former platoon mate that, uh, that called me. I, I was in town. You know, hit us with the news and then we assembled and, uh, you know, went, went to Texas.

• 3:26:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was, I mean,

• 3:26:54Jocko Willink?

  yeah, just, just a freaking nightmare.

• 3:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was a rough time, man. I, I, I had a rough year there and, uh, you know, aside from the tragedy, uh, you know, of those events as well, the stress of being a platoon leader. Um, you know, we had a pending deployment, all that.

• 3:27:22Speaker 01

  Jacked up my back big time. Like, this was like, you know, wasn't anything like I, I broke bones or, or anything like that, but it was, it was extremely painful.

• 3:27:34Speaker 01

  Um, right before deployment and.

• 3:27:37Jocko Willink?

  A broken bone sometime would be better. It's like just freaking break the bone. The weird like muscular freaking soft tissue shit.

• 3:27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:27:45Jocko Willink?

  That stuff. And like, if you talking to your buddy and you're like, oh yeah, I have a broken vertebrae. They're like, oh, okay, cool. Like, I get it. Like, you can, we accept your excuse. When you're like, well, my back kinda hurt. It's like the worst, right? My back's sore and it feels weird, you know? It's like just, it's the worst.

• 3:28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I was walking around, I mean, with wraps and all this stupid stuff and doing everything I could to relieve that. I, you know, I deployed and luckily we weren't in a, doing a combat deployment. So, a lot of training though. But yeah, I, you know, just, just kind of a weird, rough time, just trying to keep my shit together. You know, and, and not let that impact the, uh, the platoon. I mean, especially this is like my chance to, to lead a platoon and, you know, not to muff it up, so.

• 3:28:33Speaker 01

  But luckily he had a great group of guys and they made it really easy.

• 3:28:38Jocko Willink?

  What was it like with Chris? Like, kind of this whole image of Chris from the outside world? And then, you know, us guys knowing him? And, and then like you who'd like, obviously did multiple deployments with him and,

• 3:29:02Jocko Willink?

  man, it was like, what was your perspective when you saw like the world watching Chris? And reacting? And like, I didn't know this, but I think American Sniper is the most popular military movie of all time. Like beats Saving Private Ryan, beats Platoon, like,

• 3:29:23Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 3:29:23Jocko Willink?

  Yep, it's the most popular. I don't know, maybe Top Gun has got it now, but like, what did it look like for you?

• 3:29:35Jocko Willink?

  Didn't, didn't we, we all, I don't know if you were at this, they had like a screening of the movie?

• 3:29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:29:41Jocko Willink?

  In Coronado for us? And we all went to it? And it was really like weird.

• 3:29:47Speaker 01

  It, it was weird, man, and you know, there's some structural issues when you're trying to fit someone's life into,

• 3:29:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 3:29:56Speaker 01

  A two hour block, you know, so, you know, trying to make sense of, alright. Okay, what, what is this? But yeah, I mean, I was glad to see, you know, Chris, Chris had a reputation, I mean, the stuff he did in Fallujah was,

• 3:30:13Speaker 01

  you know, kind of, it was just legendary, man. You know, I mean, that, that's, that's what, uh, that's where he got the name or, you know, in that timeframe, but, he did a lot of great shit, man, and, you know.

• 3:30:30Speaker 01

  Took care of business down there and to see him get the credit for it and tell the story and kind of the full, full cycle, kind of the, you know, redemption aspect of him going through all that shit. Like I, I told you when I was done with my third platoon, I, I was mentally smoked, right? I, I need to take a break. Chris stuck around and hit another.

• 3:30:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Into solder city, by the way.

• 3:30:54Speaker 01

  Into solder city, had another tough deployment. Um, so he was.

• 3:30:58Jocko Willink?

  Got shot in the helmet. Did you hear that? Well, you probably knew. I mean, he got shot in the helmet. Like, yeah.

• 3:31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he volunteered for the hardest duty. I mean, was in flujia, that, uh, that second pump when we weren't even in Iraq. So I mean, he constantly volunteered for the hardest duty, put himself in the front lines. And, um, yeah, I, I felt, I'm glad he was recognized for that. And, uh, I'm glad, you know, the story was told, um, of him kind of going full circle. And, you know, I, I think keeping great touch with him whenever he got out and I, I did reach out like when the book was coming out and, you know, just like reconnecting with him a little bit, but he did, he did reply back to me and it just was, uh, super glad that he left when he did and like super thankful and grateful that he got to be daddy.

• 3:31:48Speaker 01

  I, I remember I was actually looking through some old stuff and, you know, came across a note there that, uh, that was one of the things that he really appreciated was, you know, getting out of that and being, being a, being a father, you know?

• 3:32:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then, I mean, obviously Biggles, when, when Biggles died, which again, it was like, what was hard about those guys? It was like we were home, you know? And like, we all think, oh yeah, like, like you said.

• 3:32:17Speaker 01

  It's not supposed to happen.

• 3:32:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's not supposed to happen. And, um,

• 3:32:22Jocko Willink?

  Freaking just terrible and you know the the movie I remember we went to see the movie and you're just like well you don't really know what to expect and it's just kind of overwhelming to see this movie and just and you know like you like you pointed out and what I've come to realize what you pointed out is like they had to take a guy's life his whole life um for deployments for combat deployments his wife and family his growing up family his mom they had to take that whole thing and put it into an hour and a half like that's that's that's an impossible task and so you got to kind of look at it from a different frame of mind and I think what it did do is it did a great job of showing you know what the stress is on the family what

• 3:33:06Jocko Willink?

  you know say his wife had been through his kids and like the fact that you said you know like he was trying to you know he was coming back he was gonna move in that direction and I think that's what they look the combat stuff it is what it is this the way they make things look in Iraq it kind of is what it is but to tell the story of you know and it's not just Chris's story it's the story of so many guys that went on deployment and their families that had to deal with that and the aftermath so um the only the other thing that always kind of bums me out is like Chris being such a freaking wise ass and being so funny and being like just they just didn't

• 3:33:50Jocko Willink?

  capture that kind of at all like they didn't really show like dude this guy was funny as hell like would be harassing people making jokes practically the whole nine yards

• 3:34:01Speaker 01

  he was not sulking or brooding I mean he was he was a wise ass and salty as hell

• 3:34:06Jocko Willink?

  yeah and and a cackling aggressive laugh that like if somebody did something and he was laughing it was like little darts were hitting you know you could just you hear that cackling freaking laugh

• 3:34:19Speaker 01

  so I'll I'll give you just like a little tidbit of Chris's you know mischievous nature um he used to like to poke me I mean we were buddies we were often on a training trips when we had to share rooms or whatever we'd share rooms so we'd like do little pranks and stuff but on our second deployment we were in Baghdad in like an abandoned building or whatever And in between ops, I mean, it was sleeping and lift like get super strong and watch movies and you know, and until you have something to plan for or whatever. And I, I used to like my quiet time and I was known to nap occasionally. So I, I would nap and

• 3:34:58Speaker 01

  close my door. I had my own little room and he did not want me napping. He, he didn't think that was right. So what, what he would do is he would come and

• 3:35:08Jocko Willink?

  Didn't think that was right.

• 3:35:11Speaker 01

  He would doorbell ditch me. He'd come and like knock on my door and bang, bang, bang. And then, you know, I'd come out and he'd get me all riled up. And this went on for like a couple of months and I got like really pissy about it. And I actually went to the extent to go get like, you know, surreptitious camera equipment and set up to, to catch him. I ended up not, not catching him, but uh, yeah, he's funny dude, great guy. Um, yeah, man, he's missed.

• 3:35:38Jocko Willink?

  And then that deployment as a platoon chief, you guys deploy kind of a standard, uh, doing exercises and stuff overseas. Um, it wasn't a combat deployment. This is probably the, maybe around the low point of combat for the teams. Well, I guess it depends on where you are, but for you it was.

• 3:35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:35:55Jocko Willink?

  That your first non-combat deployment?

• 3:35:58Speaker 01

  It was and

• 3:35:59Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty impressive, man.

• 3:36:00Speaker 01

  A table was kinda neat. I mean, the younger guys didn't like it, right? Cause I, and we all want to be in the ship, but it's easier to say, you know, when you have a couple of combat deployments, it's like, eh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm good. Um, but the guys are eager, who've never done that whatever, you know, didn't, didn't take it so lightly. But yeah, I, I kinda got that like nineties frogman pick on deployment and got to see a lot of the world I'd never seen. And uh, it was a blast, man. I mean, I, I really had some fun and uh, I mean, honestly, at the end of that thing, we had done so much training, like we were sharp. Oh, man, our CQC so tight. Um, yeah, good, good group of dudes and uh, Good deployment, different type of deployment, but rewarding in different ways.

• 3:36:45Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, you're married this whole time. When did you get married? So you married Beth, your high school sweetheart.

• 3:36:50Speaker 01

  I did. Yeah, I married, uh, yeah, I'm sorry. Don't, don't want to forget that.

• 3:36:54Jocko Willink?

  No, I know. Beth, you are at the top of our story, but we had to cover some other things.

• 3:37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we ended up, uh, we broke up for a while whenever I, I went psycho pre Navy and then, uh, started dating again after my first platoon and then, uh, we got married after, after that Ramadi deployment. So 2007.

• 3:37:18Jocko Willink?

  Check. Right on. And, and so she's, she racked up a bunch of deployments.

• 3:37:24Speaker 01

  She earned it and, uh, and then I have two kids. Yeah. So one was born, uh, in 2009 and then the other in 2012.

• 3:37:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Now after that platoon chief tour, you decide you're going to do, uh, you're going to switch over to warrant officer.

• 3:37:38Speaker 01

  Well, it, it kind of, uh, the tour got extended. They, they ended up, uh, kind of keeping us together. There was another reorg, undoing what they had already done. Classic, classic move. Um, so they kept us together. We did, we did like another year and it was like, kind of do your own workup, which is kind of fun. And then we did a, another mini deployment to PECOM. So it's like another year. And then, um, at the end of that, it was clear that I hadn't thought one second beyond being a platoon chief. This was like all the way back in high school again, like no plan whatsoever. Um, but thankfully, you know, being around good people, someone's going to have a good idea. And one of those people was Jeremy. Jeremy had gone warrant the year prior.

• 3:38:23Speaker 01

  And I was like, you know, I didn't really think much of it until I was in the position. I'm like, hey man, what's this warrant deal? I'm looking for, I'm looking for a change. And at that point of the career, you know, you have as an enlisted dude, you have a couple of different options. Um, you know, you can go the senior enlisted route and, or, you know, you can do something like what I did. Um, and I just wanted to do something different. So I, I thought I liked. I liked that the warrant officer career path was just a little bit different and I thought would challenge me in some different ways. So I put it in a package and they must have been low on candidates that year because I got picked up.

• 3:39:01Jocko Willink?

  So you get picked up for warrant officer and, and now you go to SEAL Team Three, back to Team Three. That must've been kind of cool.

• 3:39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was, it was really cool. Although in a much, I mean, we talk about going full circle to.

• 3:39:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:39:14Speaker 01

  You're like being, being a hellion to a company man, you know, working, working up in ops and, and with the headquarters. Yeah.

• 3:39:23Jocko Willink?

  And then you, you know, you basically become the training officer. Is that what's going on?

• 3:39:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we jumped on deployment pretty quick, went back to Iraq. So news flash, if you haven't been following the news over the last decade, we end up going back into Iraq

• 3:39:40Speaker 01

  and was kind of thrown to the wolves in terms of like, you know, one day you're commissioned, kind of no training, and then you're like right in the ops shop. So I was right, right on the wrong side of the ops in Iraq. Did that, came back and then was the, the training officer for that. Yeah, we did a full cycle.

• 3:39:59Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 3:40:00Speaker 01

  At, at Team Three.

• 3:40:01Jocko Willink?

  And then where'd you go the next time on deployment?

• 3:40:03Speaker 01

  Um, we did a, went out to the Middle East, a non, non combat zone. Um, yeah.

• 3:40:10Jocko Willink?

  And are you still into golf at this point?

• 3:40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Cause as a warrant officer, you got a little bit more, a little bit more flex time.

• 3:40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well.

• 3:40:16Jocko Willink?

  It's almost like an Echo Charles type.

• 3:40:20Speaker 01

  Especially after we got back from Iraq, I found myself being in San Diego, like a lot, having a lot of time. So yeah, I, I ramped up. That was actually when, you know, the golf had been an obsession kind of up to that point, but like not in a mature way, right? Just like whenever I had time, I'd go golf and, uh, and honestly in that kind of 2012, 2013, it got me through, I think some kind of tough stuff there. But, you know, come after that deployment circa 26 ish, I had some time to actually practice. And lo and behold, like, would you be shocked that when you practice at something, you actually like get better?

• 3:40:56Jocko Willink?

  Way it works.

• 3:40:57Speaker 01

  Like, man.

• 3:40:57Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable.

• 3:40:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I didn't have to be losing all these balls, you know, that often. So not, not that I'm good. I'm very far away from good, but I got a lot better. I started practicing and then it, it just kind of like, you know, built some momentum there. Once you get a little bit better, um, you want to get better and better and better. And so that really gave me like, as I was kind of. Grip and you're dealing with this challenge of being out of a platoon, which you know, whether you leave the Navy that way, or it happens in your career, it's tough. You spend an entire career as this thing, as an operator, whatever it may be, and then you're a company man. I'm, I'm working the desk job. I don't have the same buddies. I don't have those relationships.

• 3:41:39Speaker 01

  You know, it's important to have something else, if that's jujitsu, working out. Whatever it is, I, I found golf, so I just like went into that and that gave me something that I was constantly thinking about and working on.

• 3:41:52Jocko Willink?

  I never really thought about this. Even though I spent my adult life in the SEAL teams, you were talking about the fact that you were home during workup. And I was like, oh damn, because I was always in a platoon. So the fact that, I was like, oh, all those people, a bunch of those people up in the head shed, they weren't freaking doing what, what a platoon guy is doing. A platoon guy's just going, just like you're just going. And I didn't, I didn't even recognize that until like I was thinking about that. I was like, oh, there's a bunch of people that are just like going home at night. That's weird.

• 3:42:27Speaker 01

  It's weird, you know, and one thing I, I didn't really talk about, but uh, I'm still dealing with that back injury. That was part of the reason I wanted to go war and I, because I felt like I was never going to get better.

• 3:42:37Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 3:42:38Speaker 01

  Like this is it, man. You know, it's a

• 3:42:39Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever figure out what the injury, was it a specific thing? Or was it like musculature?

• 3:42:43Speaker 01

  It, it was musculature and some imbalances. Yeah, I, I went like almost two years without any pain relief and it was like gnarly, man. So it's like, you know, putting on shoes hurt, everything we did, it was just excruciating. And if you've dealt with back issues and there's a lot worse ones to deal with, but um, yeah, I just really couldn't function with that. But I went in um, after that second pump I did, uh, second platoon chief deal. I went in in kind of desperation to the physical therapy and I'd been working with people and no relief or whatever and you know we're blessed that we have in the community they hire like some legit dudes so guys that work for professional sports teams whatever.

• 3:43:27Jocko Willink?

  Jason?

• 3:43:28Speaker 01

  He was one of them.

• 3:43:29Jocko Willink?

  Check, right on.

• 3:43:31Speaker 01

  Not for that event, but I worked with him before that, but anyways, I went back into this guy in desperation, I'm like dude, figure this out, please. And within an hour, he had no shit, figured it out and he's like, alright dude, this is an imbalance, we're gonna do this and this and this and you know, my leg was sucked up into my my hip and was creating just all these kind of, you know, contortion of forces there that were just so I mean, he, whatever he did provided relief for the first time I had in almost, you know, a year and a half or whatever.

• 3:44:01Jocko Willink?

  So you had to go on some like stretching protocol or something?

• 3:44:03Speaker 01

  I did, yeah, and I did some things and I ended up strengthening some things and doing some other stuff. And knock on wood, I've had a couple of episodes, but I got through that. I didn't think I was gonna get through, but I actually ended up getting in a, dare I say for me, ridiculous shape when I was a warrant, like dude, because you're not getting hammered on the workup is hard on you, right? Like you're running and gunning, body armor, hopping over walls, just up and down, just getting beat down. There's like no rest, shitty sleep, just like all.

• 3:44:34Jocko Willink?

  Shitty sleep, shitty food, just.

• 3:44:36Speaker 01

  All of it.

• 3:44:36Jocko Willink?

  Stress, beat down.

• 3:44:38Speaker 01

  But now, now I have an opportunity to like chill out a little bit and I got in great shape. And it's good, man, yeah.

• 3:44:47Jocko Willink?

  So you do a couple tours at Team Three? And now you're, your last, I think your last tour is at SQT?

• 3:44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yep.

• 3:44:58Jocko Willink?

  And what was your job there?

• 3:44:59Speaker 01

  I was the training officer.

• 3:45:01Jocko Willink?

  So just overseeing everything?

• 3:45:02Speaker 01

  That's it, yeah, I mean essentially was responsible for the curriculum and execution of training, so just making sure that our guys were getting the right type of training and that it was being conducted. Yeah, the right way. So it was a it was a good challenge. I mean, every kind of job I had in the teams was a new challenge outside of the platoon, for sure.

• 3:45:24Jocko Willink?

  And these SQT guys are getting freaking outstanding training.

• 3:45:27Speaker 01

  Oh dude, for sure. Compared, there's no doubt compared to what I got going through and then the guys before me, like, did you go through STT?

• 3:45:36Jocko Willink?

  I went through STT, yeah.

• 3:45:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, everything has gotten more professional and better. So these guys are, you know, high caliber fucking dudes when they show up to a team. Now, look, you're still a new guy. There's still like a lot to learn, but they're starting their baseline.

• 3:45:50Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you. Yes, you. You're still a new guy. I don't care how well you've been trained. You're still a new guy.

• 3:45:55Speaker 01

  The baseline, the baseline is so much higher than than what it used to be.

• 3:45:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And then you, at that point, you're like, gonna retire. You decide to retire.

• 3:46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. By this point, so I was kicking and screaming in terms of making it to 20 years. I didn't want to do a career, really. Um, but then eventually I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it. Commissioned as a warrant. I thought I'd do 25 years. Um, but I went to SQT and that was my real first shore duty that I'd had, you know, in about a decade. And I just took a deep breath. I was like, damn, it's time. And I thought that was a great place to end it on. I just thought it was like kind of full circle. I just ran, I lost steam. I was it. So, uh, I made the decision to get out.

• 3:46:43Speaker 01

  Um, but yet again, I found myself in a position of like not knowing, you know, I I didn't have anything set up.

• 3:46:52Jocko Willink?

  So what was your plan?

• 3:46:54Speaker 01

  To buy myself some time. Yeah. I ended up getting into, um, you know, I I look around whenever I struggle to know what to do. Uh, I look to those around me that are doing doing things. And, uh, there were some guys that were going, um, through a MBA program up at UCLA. Uh, executive MBA program. So I was like, yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. Um, you know, maybe I'll go learn about business, all the different facets of, of business. Maybe that would be good. You know, give me some skillsets to kind of lean on, get myself a good job. Um, so I thought I'd do that and I ended up getting into that my last year on active duty and that was right around, I mean, COVID 2020, shit got weird.

• 3:47:39Speaker 01

  So I, I ended up doing a year of school on active duty. Um, a lot of unknowns.

• 3:47:46Jocko Willink?

  During COVID?

• 3:47:47Speaker 01

  During, during COVID. Yeah.

• 3:47:48Jocko Willink?

  So that was like probably pretty nice. I'm assuming because it was like, uh, whatever virtual classroom or whatever?

• 3:47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was easier. I, I didn't enjoy it. You know, I, I wanted to be up in, in person. Um, I don't have a hard enough time learning as it is, you know, especially on a computer screen. Um, but yeah, so I, you know, I, I went through that program and, uh, halfway through, ended up retiring, still had no idea of what I wanted to do, although I had taken an entrepreneurship class and they had this class that was kind of like a, uh, exploratory class. So you have a, you have an idea, a business idea, something, here's your opportunity to test the concept for kind of

• 3:48:34Speaker 01

  viability. It just, you know, just a semester's worth of research. So I had an idea. Um, I actually had this kind of epiphany during that period. I mean, I just woke up on a Saturday and was like, I'm going to make, at the time it was a Navy SEAL inspired golf bag. So like inspired by the kit that we wear, designed in a way. Um, and I ended up kind of drawing, I, I grew up drawing and doing stuff when I was a kid, but ended up drawing like for a whole weekend, like concept art and.

• 3:49:10Jocko Willink?

  Tactical golf bags.

• 3:49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, kind of. Um.

• 3:49:13Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 3:49:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:49:17Speaker 01

  Had a name, had an idea, and I was like, you know, I don't know. It wasn't fully fleshed out, but I had this opportunity that next year, this entrepreneurship class. I still didn't know what I wanted to do at all. I had no clue whatsoever. And I was like, you know, let's, let's maybe just pitch this and let's see if there's something there. Had no idea what the market looked like, what the opportunity, you know, didn't really know anything. So I, the one prerequisite to be in the class is you either had to join a team or create a team. So I ended up recruiting people. I didn't know the class that well. We were six months in. So they had this kind of like bio book and I was going through and just looking for like anyone who had hobby of golf. And actually, the first guy

• 3:50:01Speaker 01

  I came across, Kevin Lee, was in the bio book, hobby golf. I was like,

• 3:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 3:50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, reached out to him and he was like, hey, man, yeah, I'm in, you know, basically been in kind of manufacturing my entire career. So I was like, oh, yeah, great. Let's do it. So he was the first on the team and then recruited some other folks and we took that through a series of multiple classes. So it was kind of like a, you graduate from one, you go, you have an option to go on to the next stage. And we started with one group, that first class, and then moving into the second class, we had to like reform teams, essentially. So Kevin stayed on, recruited some other people, had just a great team, super fortunate. And, and it just kind of built some steam, you know, the more that

• 3:50:49Speaker 01

  we kind of researched it and the more I fleshed out the idea of what later would be Hoolie and kind of where we are, you know, we moved away from golf bags and, you know, did this research and I thought there was room to get into the apparel side and all that.

• 3:51:03Jocko Willink?

  Golf apparel.

• 3:51:04Speaker 01

  Golf apparel.

• 3:51:05Jocko Willink?

  And the company is called?

• 3:51:07Speaker 01

  Hoolie.

• 3:51:07Jocko Willink?

  Hoolie Golf.

• 3:51:09Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 3:51:09Jocko Willink?

  I guess it's just Hoolie.

• 3:51:10Speaker 01

  It's Hoolie, yep.

• 3:51:11Jocko Willink?

  It's hooliegolf.com, right?

• 3:51:13Speaker 01

  It is. The, the website is hooliegolf.com, H-O-O-L-I-E.

• 3:51:18Jocko Willink?

  Which is named after?

• 3:51:19Speaker 01

  The hoolie tool.

• 3:51:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So as a breacher, that's one of the tools that you carry. Sure, you carry explosives, you might carry a sledgehammer, and you might carry a hoolie tool, which is taken from the fire department, who uses either a hooligan tool or a haligan tool.

• 3:51:39Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 3:51:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct. I, I think, uh, I think we talked about this.

• 3:51:42Jocko Willink?

  I know you and I talked about it, but I, I don't feel, I think the halogen is the guy that originally invented this tool, which looks like a big ass weird looking pry bar, basically. And then people copied the idea and, but they couldn't use the same name because they kind of copied the idea. So they changed, they changed the design a little bit, but that also is a very practical thing. And that's what the SEAL teams, that's all we ever said was Hoolie tool.

• 3:52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:52:07Jocko Willink?

  Probably because we're more hooliganish.

• 3:52:09Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I, I think there was a structural difference too, in that I think a halogen is a one-piece cast.

• 3:52:16Jocko Willink?

  And hooligan is like, has a bolt or something that.

• 3:52:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like a three-piece.

• 3:52:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like a three-piece.

• 3:52:20Speaker 01

  Something like that. So, yeah, that, that was a, you know, we did our name exploration. I was going through and I, I just liked the way it sounded and there's a connection to my background. I thought that was kind of cool. And then, uh, lo and behold, I found out that Hoolie is actually like an old obscure Scottish golf term that means blowing a strong wind. So.

• 3:52:40Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 3:52:41Speaker 02

  Layers.

• 3:52:42Speaker 01

  Layers.

• 3:52:43Jocko Willink?

  We call that layers.

• 3:52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, if you're in Scotland and it's blowing, it's blowing a Hoolie.

• 3:52:50Speaker 01

  So, yeah, you know, once, once I knew that, I was like, man, all right, we're on, it's meant to be.

• 3:52:54Jocko Willink?

  And so you retired, when did you retire? So did you, wait, let me phrase that. Did you have school finished by the time you retired?

• 3:52:59Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 3:53:00Jocko Willink?

  So you re, you retired from the teams.

• 3:53:02Speaker 01

  In July of 21 and then.

• 3:53:05Jocko Willink?

  How'd that feel?

• 3:53:06Speaker 01

  Uh, man, if I'm being honest, like the weight was lifted. I felt great. Yeah. You know, especially where I was, I had been away from the platoon for a while, right? The nucleus of the team. So like you're, you're a company man, you're doing different stuff, rewarding, important stuff, but.

• 3:53:24Jocko Willink?

  When I retired, I was like at trade at, and so like I was out with platoons all the time. I was like in a platoon, but I was basically in nine platoons at a time. I'd be out with this. And you're just like, oh, how can I ever leave?

• 3:53:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:53:36Jocko Willink?

  And then I had to clean out my cage and I was like, oh, this is the wrong move.

• 3:53:41Speaker 01

  But after being a TU commander, troop commander.

• 3:53:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:53:44Speaker 01

  I mean, you're just in different.

• 3:53:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:53:46Speaker 01

  Company positions, essentially, you know, or executive positions after that, but, uh, yeah, so, uh, got out July, retired July 21 and then that program that I was in, um,

• 3:54:01Speaker 01

  I graduated in June of 22. So, yeah, a year and a half ago, some change. And then by that point, uh, I was all in, man. I, you know. I, I, I looked at all the pros and cons and basically came to the conclusion that if you think you have a good idea and you could pull it off and you don't, I mean, I'm just gonna regret that my entire life. You know, so the, uh, there really was no other choice but to proceed. And obviously, uh, you know, we're a young company, uh, end up launching this last, last April, lots of to figure out and being a small company is precarious.

• 3:54:40Speaker 01

  Lots of to figure out, but, uh, it's extremely rewarding and I found all these other things that when I was looking for what I wanted to do. You know, I, one of the things that, just to back up here a little bit, that I think is worth mentioning, give these guys a call out because they do great work. But there's an organization called the Honor Foundation. Um, and what they do is they help soft transition from the military. And, you know, it's a, I don't remember how long the program is, but essentially there is kind of like a, uh, exploration period, like a self-exploration period.

• 3:55:16Jocko Willink?

  So did you do that whole thing at the Honor Foundation?

• 3:55:18Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. And, you know, I kind of like, didn't want to do it, but there were other guys that I respected that were doing it. I'm like, alright, I gotta go do it. I don't want to do all this touchy feely stuff and get in line with my, you know, emotions and history and blah, blah, blah. And, uh, it ended up being like one of the best things for me because.

• 3:55:38Jocko Willink?

  Wait, did you do all that stuff? What is that stuff?

• 3:55:40Speaker 01

  Well, the first, I think the first six weeks, it's like journaling. And like, like going through your history and trying to like, you know, decipher what makes you tick. I were like, here's your history, but why, why is it like that? Why did you do this? Why are you the way you are? Why, why did you choose this path? What drives you? Like those things, like why, why are you waking up in the morning?

• 3:56:05Jocko Willink?

  So, so you did, ended up doing all that?

• 3:56:07Speaker 01

  I did.

• 3:56:08Jocko Willink?

  And you got reward out of it?

• 3:56:10Speaker 01

  I did.

• 3:56:10Jocko Willink?

  You learned something?

• 3:56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I did. I, you know, it didn't pop up when I was in the program, really. Like I was, they, they give you a coach and the coach is supposed to kind of guide you through the process and I was kind of.

• 3:56:23Jocko Willink?

  Is the coach a civilian or a team guy?

• 3:56:25Speaker 01

  Civilian.

• 3:56:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:56:26Speaker 01

  Civilian and, uh, you know, they try to align if you have some sort of.

• 3:56:31Speaker 01

  Industry you're trying to get into or something like that. They want to try to align you and personalities and stuff like that. So they do the best they can, but I had a great, great coach there who was helping me guide through some stuff and have these conversations. But, you know, looking back, I could see he was, he was trying to pull teeth because I wasn't being easy. Yeah, I, I wasn't converting very easily, but what I got from that program, like really what it did is it forced me to look at my priorities. Like, what are the things that I think make me tick? And these things equal happiness, right? And that's that, that mix of, you know, what am I trying to get out of my family life? What am I trying to get out of my work life? And like, really, what am I trying to get out of work? Am I trying to make money?

• 3:57:14Speaker 01

  Am I trying to be home a lot? Am I trying to be my own boss? I didn't have all those answers, but it, it set the precedent for me to be introspective and to look at all that stuff. I found it very, very helpful and it took some time, but when I started to get into the Hoolie stuff, I was like, you know, man, I kind of like designing shit. And I kind of like building things and I kind of like the challenge of doing something that maybe the odds are stacked against me, building a brand. Uh, these things are kind of scary, like in a different way, risky in a different way. Um, yeah, I just kind of, it grew on me and then it's like, man, maybe, maybe I'm an entrepreneur.

• 3:58:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'd say you're definitely an entrepreneur. What, what I remember is like you were, you initially talked to me about this idea and you're like, well, you know, I'm into golf. I'm like, oh, I don't like golf. Come talk to me when I'm 98 and I'm gonna start playing golf because I'm doing jujitsu and I'm freaking surfing and I'm playing guitar and all this stuff. But, you know, but I was like, oh, I got this idea because you're, but I know I've known so many team guys that were so into golf. And then when you were telling me the idea, I was like, Well, I also know there's a whole group of dudes that play golf that are not like a stereotypical golf person. And I was like, oh, you're gonna freaking land because there's all kinds of people that that think the way you think about golf.

• 3:58:45Jocko Willink?

  And they're a huge part of that market and I know tons of them and no one's, no one's reaching them. No one's, no one's talking to those people and definitely no one's making cool stuff for them to wear. So as soon as you were talking to me, I was like, oh yeah, this is gonna be, this is gonna be great. You're gonna nail it because that those people exist and you're making, this is what I always think is important. You make something that's for you and your friends, like you're making something that's for you. I make all kinds of stuff that's for me and my friends, like I make jujitsu gear. Why? That's for me and my friends. Make rash cards. That's for me and my friends. Make energy drinks. That's for me and my friends. This is all stuff that I use. And so as, as you were talking to me, I was like, oh, he's gonna make stuff for him and his friends. And there's a, and I know that there's a huge, I mean, look, golf is a freaking huge thing.

• 3:59:28Jocko Willink?

  And I know that it's not all people in a country club with a Mercedes. It's a bunch of hooligans. And so, oh, you've got a whole group of people that you're gonna be, that, that wanna get on board with this. And not only that, but people that, you know, they're doing it early in the morning. They're doing it because they got a regular job. They're doing it, you know, in between when they're taking care of their kids. They're practicing in their backyard, hitting into a net, you know, like these are the people, there's a whole culture of like Hoolie golf that's out there. I already know it. And so when you were like, oh, I'm gonna make clothes for them. I was like, oh, that's freaking awesome. That's gonna do outstanding. So it may be your first effort in business, but I think it's gonna slay.

• 4:00:11Jocko Willink?

  Because I think you're, you're nailing a group of people that are, are, that think the way you do about a very, uh, something that people are super passionate about. I've seen freaking team guys spend their, all their money on golf, right? New clubs, new balls, new freaking tees, new this, new that.

• 4:00:31Jocko Willink?

  But they're hardcore dudes and and they work out and they train and so you're taking that team guy approach to golf and I think it's gonna crush so.

• 4:00:40Speaker 01

  Man, that that's awesome. I appreciate you saying all that because you said it way better than I possibly ever could have, man. That's it. I mean, you know, we're trying to trying to bring golf to, uh, you know, a group of dudes out there that are cut from a different cloth and see the world maybe a little bit different and yeah, maybe a little bit hardcore up in the mind.

• 4:00:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like dude, you post workout stuff and like early morning golf, right? You're like dawn patrol golf. Pre dawn golf is salt. Like that's what you're doing. That's if I, when I start playing golf, when I'm seventy nine years old, I'll be like early dawn patrol golf. I'll be in the game. I'll be, I'll be Hoolie to the, to the core.

• 4:01:19Speaker 01

  To the core. I know what the issue is, man. You're scared to get hooked because it it's an all this.

• 4:01:24Jocko Willink?

  I definitely don't need any more hobbies. I can tell you that right now. Um, and especially a hobby that takes four hours like, and I know you could do it faster. How fast can you play? How fast can you play nine holes? Do you play nine or do you play eighteen?

• 4:01:35Speaker 01

  No, I'm not playing nine. I'm, I'm no quitter, Chaco. Come on, man.

• 4:01:38Jocko Willink?

  So how long does it take you play eighteen holes?

• 4:01:39Speaker 01

  It, it depends. So if I'm hitting it good, I could do it in two and a half hours, like at a mild pace.

• 4:01:45Jocko Willink?

  Do you jog a little bit?

• 4:01:46Speaker 01

  Uh, I might jog.

• 4:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:01:48Speaker 01

  Uh, it, it, it really depends on how I'm playing. Um, like just an average round, even if I'm playing like shit, three hours. Uh, and this is all if I get off the first, you know, tee first. So there's no one in front. Uh, but I played this fast. I mean, now, uh, there's this new thing. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm gonna have to get back into running shape, drop a couple of LBs, but they have speed golf. And these guys do it like in an hour, hour and a half, and they're like legit sprinting around. Um, I've done that and the fastest I've golfed is I've, I've played in less than two hours. And for, for a hack, that's pretty damn fast.

• 4:02:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You went to the freaking caddy course in Scotland. What, what's that all about? How long did that take? What kind of pressure situations where they're like, yo, give me a club, give me a club. What's the distance? What's the distance?

• 4:02:37Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I'm, I'm glad you brought that up. Um, another good, great organization worth, uh, talking about, but, um, caddy schools for, for, uh, caddy school for soldiers is another program. That's a program I went in this last May. Um, great organization and basically what they do is.

• 4:02:56Speaker 01

  They fly a group of veterans out to Scotland and it was a month period that we spent in Scotland. And really the purpose of the, of that is to, you know, guys who've been through a lot of shit to share their experiences with each other, you know, help each other heal and find out what's, what's next and, and connect with golf. And then also to, you know, find some employment. So there's a lot of guys who leave that program and they, they're caddies. Um, you know, working their way up or going to resort towns and being caddies. So, um, it was an awesome experience. I had a great group of guys and to, uh, to everyone, you know, running the program, just say, thank you guys for having me.

• 4:03:41Jocko Willink?

  When you, when you, so every, this is soldiers, what's it soldiers? What? What's the name of it?

• 4:03:48Speaker 01

  Caddy's School for Soldiers.

• 4:03:49Jocko Willink?

  Caddy, they all go to Scotland or just some?

• 4:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, they had one class, um, that I think went to Whistling Straits. Um, but yeah, they have a couple, couple of classes that go each year to Scotland. That, that's it. Yeah. Unless something's changed.

• 4:04:06Jocko Willink?

  How much does it cost to go to caddy school if I was just like signing up?

• 4:04:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, if you're a veteran in the program, it's free.

• 4:04:13Jocko Willink?

  No, but what about me or not? What about Echo? He's not a veteran, but he's just fired up for golf and he wants to go. Do you even know?

• 4:04:18Speaker 01

  Uh, man, no clue, but you talk in airfare, that's a couple of grand minimum. And then you talk about, I mean, we stayed, they have a, uh, they have a house in St. Andrews. So, you know, since you don't know much about golf.

• 4:04:31Jocko Willink?

  But I do know that's like the, that's the mecca of golf.

• 4:04:33Speaker 01

  It is.

• 4:04:34Jocko Willink?

  The holy grail.

• 4:04:34Speaker 01

  That, that is the best way to say it is the mecca of golf. It is.

• 4:04:38Jocko Willink?

  It's ground zero. Is it where golf started?

• 4:04:41Speaker 01

  There's probably some debate, but, um, built courses.

• 4:04:47Speaker 01

  Hundreds of years old. Yeah, I want to say they-

• 4:04:49Jocko Willink?

  It's been pissing people off for hundreds of years.

• 4:04:52Speaker 01

  I want to say, yeah, I, I hope I don't get this wrong, but you'll just edit it out. I think it's from the 17th century. Like old, old, old. So, uh, yeah, I mean, you, you go there and, uh, man, one of the best places I've ever visited. I can't wait to go back. I don't know when that will be, but,

• 4:05:11Speaker 01

  country's just so gracious and, you know, it's just amazing. And you go around best golf courses, you know, probably on the planet and they're all stacked right next to each other. There's so many golf courses.

• 4:05:22Jocko Willink?

  Are they sitting you down? Is there like a freaking old freaking Mickey type dude that rolls in with like, sunburnt face leathered and he's like, let me tell you, when you get in the sand trap and there's a four knot offshore wind, you want to go with this? Like, is it like that? Like, what's it going down?

• 4:05:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So in terms of-

• 4:05:45Jocko Willink?

  Golf Yoda. Where's he at?

• 4:05:49Speaker 01

  They have a training program and they go through kind of the basics and, and most of the guys that show up are proficient golfers, but not always. It's not a prerequisite. In fact, one guy was a, you know, great guy was out there. He had just picked up golf. Um, so they go through some of the kind of fundamentals, but in terms of like what you're doing as a caddy, your goal is to help your golfer have his best day. And so there's a lot that goes into that. Um, aside from the tactical stuff of, you know, what is the yardage? What is the lie?

• 4:06:20Jocko Willink?

  You carry a rangefinder?

• 4:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I, I actually, I went old school and-

• 4:06:26Jocko Willink?

  Mill it out?

• 4:06:27Speaker 01

  No, I, I stepped it out. Yeah. I, I didn't, I, I didn't use a rangefinder in the program. They have, uh, you have a book and you have markers on the course.

• 4:06:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:06:37Speaker 01

  So you're using markers and like, okay, from there it's 20 paces and, and just like you're, you're diving pace count. I, I had a pace count.

• 4:06:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:06:47Speaker 01

  But yeah, really, really fun and rewarding. And, uh, I, who knows, man? Um, maybe in retirement I'll, I'll go caddy and, uh, I put it in my LinkedIn profile, uh, part-time caddy for hire. No, no one's taking me up on that, but I'm, I'm willing-

• 4:07:00Jocko Willink?

  Stand by, bro. He may be out there caddying.

• 4:07:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, uh, you know, the other part in terms of helping someone have their best round is managing, you know, emotions and strategy out there because- Having someone who can help you make the right decisions out there when you're not in the heat of the moment because you know ego, you talk about ego a lot, ego on the golf course, it's not good, especially when your skill level doesn't, isn't, you know, up to your levels of the ego. On par. On par, yeah.

• 4:07:33Jocko Willink?

  Yo, look at that, he speaks up and he comes in with a slam dunk pun, bro. He's been waiting all day.

• 4:07:39Speaker 01

  He had that written down, he was just waiting, just waiting.

• 4:07:41Jocko Willink?

  Good to go. So that, that's, you learned a lot and good, you, you were posting cool videos and stuff when you were, um, when you were over there, looked, looked freaking badass.

• 4:07:51Speaker 01

  Absolute blast.

• 4:07:52Jocko Willink?

  And obviously I'm not a golfer, but you know, we know how that goes. And that obviously helps you out with Hooli, you understand the game better and all that, which is, which is awesome. By the way, you know, we mentioned Beth, your wife, um, she is a, a program manager for the Navy SEAL Foundation, which is like just awesome and she's been there for a while. But, um, I just wanted to point that out that, you know, you've been out there, you know, serving our country and now you retired, but she still is serving our country and serving the teams through what she does with the Navy SEAL Foundation.

• 4:08:33Jocko Willink?

  Pretty awesome effort and a great organization that has helped, uh, obviously helped so many of our friends and, and our friends' families. What, what's that like? What do you, what do you look at from the outside? How hard is she busting her ass to make that happen? And is there, is it possible that anyone could be more passionate about taking care of team guys than team guys' wives?

• 4:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, I mean, you said it right there. It's a, the organization is just amazing. They've done so much over the last couple of decades and continue to, you know, I mean, help out the families. And, and now, you know, with, uh, all the veteran issues, they've, they got these new programs, um, the Warrior Fitness Program just opened up in San Diego, helping, helping, uh, veterans, team guys, you know, recover from years of abuse on their bodies and, and minds and all that. Um, and, and always, you know, there for the wounded and family of the fallen and all that. So yeah, man, to, uh, it's been really, really neat to see Beth, you know, pick up that service. I mean, she served, you know, I mean,

• 4:09:43Speaker 01

  While I was running around doing stuff, you know, running the family. I mean, that's, that's service. Keeping, keeping the family together, keeping everything moving is service. And then to get out, you know, and have her do that and be a part of that organization. It's just really cool, man. And on top of that, it's, it's really neat to stay kind of connected through her to the community as well. So kind of another, you know, blessing as well.

• 4:10:09Jocko Willink?

  No, it's awesome. And it was pretty cool. We, we all went to an event and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was four, it was a Navy SEAL Foundation event in Los Angeles and there was four guys from Task Unit Bruiser there and we were all with our wives, the same wives that we had. I mean, I guess Beth was your girlfriend at the time, but Jeremy was there with his wife, still married. And then one other guy who's still active duty with his wife, just still there. There's four of us there, right?

• 4:10:40Speaker 01

  I remember the three. I don't know about the

• 4:10:42Jocko Willink?

  There might have been one more.

• 4:10:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. Yeah, there's four of us.

• 4:10:45Jocko Willink?

  There are four. So pretty awesome. Pretty awesome to see. And we got a, we got a picture of that momentous occasion. Fourteen guys that have all been married to one woman for a long time. That's pretty impressive and pretty impressive what that foundation does. And Beth, thank you for what you do. And thanks to that foundation for what you guys do. What else? Does this get us up to speed?

• 4:11:09Speaker 01

  Man, I, I mean, that, I think that's everything. That's the most I've talked about my life ever.

• 4:11:16Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully you'll never have to do it again.

• 4:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, man, you know, thank you for having me on. Um, yeah, I said when I started, or if I didn't say, I meant to say, extremely humbled to be here, man. I mean, to think of the people that have sat in the seat and kind of what you've done, you know, over the last decade, man. It's, it's amazing. Glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah.

• 4:11:40Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 4:11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:11:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, here we go. Football questions.

• 4:11:44Speaker 02

  Well, no.

• 4:11:45Jocko Willink?

  Come on, bro.

• 4:11:45Speaker 02

  Not as much.

• 4:11:46Jocko Willink?

  That's your job.

• 4:11:47Speaker 02

  Do we, D-tackle and nose guard, right? Football?

• 4:11:50Speaker 01

  All right. So I started out D end freshman year and then I moved to nose guard.

• 4:11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause 190, 195 is not big for nose guard.

• 4:12:01Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no, no. I, I wasn't big, but uh, I was aggressive and, and I was a shoot the gap nose guard.

• 4:12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Relied on the speed. That's good. But you were into drawing growing up?

• 4:12:12Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 4:12:13Speaker 02

  Do you think that that has a direct correlation to, you know, design clothes like that?

• 4:12:17Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, man. Like, there was a, you know, it's, it's interesting. Guys come on your podcast and, and do interviews. You learn about a lot of things and I think there's a lot of guys who are kind of, unless you can come up with something better creatively inclined.

• 4:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 4:12:33Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, like play guitar. I grew up playing guitar, um, drawing. You know, you got guys that are great at photography or this or that or whatever. And, uh, I think that all plays into what we do. I mean, there, there's a lot of creativity to, you know, being a special operator.

• 4:12:48Jocko Willink?

  No doubt about it. Yeah, for sure.

• 4:12:49Speaker 02

  What was the, uh, what was the original name for the tactical golf bag?

• 4:12:55Speaker 01

  Uh, we didn't have a name. I mean, the.

• 4:12:58Speaker 02

  No, you had a name. You had a name.

• 4:13:00Speaker 01

  Did I have a name? Did you write it down?

• 4:13:01Speaker 02

  Didn't you just say, you said, we had a name for it and then it eventually became Hoolie?

• 4:13:05Speaker 01

  I, I, I had it. I had a name for the brand.

• 4:13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:13:08Speaker 01

  I had a name for the brand. The, uh, the original, the original, oh God, oh man, I'll say it was, was Hoolie Bros.

• 4:13:15Speaker 02

  Hoolie Bros.

• 4:13:16Jocko Willink?

  Bros. Oh. Dude.

• 4:13:19Speaker 02

  Wait, why is it, why is that bad?

• 4:13:20Jocko Willink?

  We can edit this out.

• 4:13:23Speaker 02

  Why is that bad? Just because it's too bro, bro.

• 4:13:25Speaker 01

  Look, man, I, I was very early. It, the idea hadn't matured, but, but Hoolie, Hoolie was in the first iteration and then, and then I played around with hooligan. So we went through like our first kind of, uh, class as hooligan golf.

• 4:13:42Jocko Willink?

  I kind of liked hooligan golf because that's the kind of people that I think we're talking about, but then I think there's more layers going straight.

• 4:13:49Speaker 02

  Too Hoolie, yeah.

• 4:13:50Jocko Willink?

  I think it's cleaner.

• 4:13:51Speaker 01

  And it's, it's, it's too on the nose.

• 4:13:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you've got also the wind, the Scottish, the Scottish wind blowing through. So we got all kinds of going deep.

• 4:14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Hoolie comes off as more refined, which is kind of the same element of refinement that golf kind of seems to have.

• 4:14:06Jocko Willink?

  But it's not overboard.

• 4:14:08Speaker 02

  Not overboard and.

• 4:14:09Jocko Willink?

  It's not.

• 4:14:10Speaker 02

  Well, the whole idea is already not snobby. It's already hardcore. See what I'm saying? But then if you take that hardcore and no matter how much you refine it, it's still going to be hardcore. No matter what. See what I'm saying? So I think it landed perfectly.

• 4:14:21Jocko Willink?

  My father-in-law's golfer. And my dad, I'll have to get them some golf shirts.

• 4:14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 4:14:26Jocko Willink?

  See what's up.

• 4:14:27Speaker 02

  Hey, if I don't play golf, can I still wear your stuff or no?

• 4:14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean, look, it's just fucking cool looking shit.

• 4:14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, like this, like.

• 4:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, look.

• 4:14:37Jocko Willink?

  You see it's got like a little camouflage activity in the collar? That's kind of the deal. So it's kind of subtle.

• 4:14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, we're, we're starting in golf and we hope, I think the spirit of the brand is sound. I mean, all the things that you just described, which I will not try to say as eloquently as you. I mean, that's, that's just a spirit, right? You know, like we, we can take that, we can, uh, you know, whether we get into kind of like lifestyle apparel or, you know, you get into other sports or whatever. Um, but yeah, there's tons of people, tons of Hooli customers and I'll just say thank you to, you know, all our customers out there, but, um, that aren't, aren't golfers. So now please, please do.

• 4:15:15Jocko Willink?

  And, and people can find you. So it's hooliegolf.com. That's where you can get the stuff. You can go to Instagram, Twitter and Facebook at Hooli Golf. And then you have a YouTube channel that you're the star of.

• 4:15:30Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah. Yeah, I, look, I haven't been posting on YouTube that often. I'm, I'm going to get back to it. Um.

• 4:15:35Jocko Willink?

  But it's, it's over the top Hooli, at over the top Hooli. Did you know that's what it was?

• 4:15:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:15:40Jocko Willink?

  Why is it at over the top Hooli? What's the, what's the difference here?

• 4:15:43Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, over the top is.

• 4:15:46Jocko Willink?

  The Sylvester Stallone movie?

• 4:15:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think for copyright purposes, I can't say it, but, uh, not, you know, the, yes, over the top is a great silver Stallone movie. It's just a coincidence.

• 4:15:56Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:15:56Speaker 01

  Um, but over the top is also layers. Talking about layers here is a, it's a problem in a golf swing. So if you have an over the top swing, it's a, it's a swing fault. So there's, there's some layers there.

• 4:16:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:16:09Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, uh, over the, over the top Hooli and then, uh, also at lead bob holland is my personal handle, kind of a new account on Instagram.

• 4:16:19Jocko Willink?

  Have we reached out to, uh, the DOD king? You know what I'm talking about?

• 4:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah.

• 4:16:24Jocko Willink?

  This dude, um, he's, cause I, cause I follow you. Now all of a sudden I get golf stuff in my algorithm. Which is, you know, but, and you know, I'll, I won't look at much of it, but I saw some kid and he asked from seven, five, seven from Virginia Beach where the dames are. And he does this whole thing. He doesn't use a T. Do you know what a T is?

• 4:16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know what a T is.

• 4:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I'm just making sure.

• 4:16:49Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. Thank you for asking.

• 4:16:51Jocko Willink?

  Well, the thing is, he doesn't use one. The D O D means drive off the deck.

• 4:16:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:16:57Jocko Willink?

  So he's out there and he just talks mad shit. Anyone that uses a T, he calls him a weasel. He's like, oh, weasel.

• 4:17:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:17:05Jocko Willink?

  You cheat and all this stuff.

• 4:17:06Speaker 01

  T using weasel.

• 4:17:08Jocko Willink?

  T using weasel. So he says, oh, you know, oh, all you weasels out there and keyboard warriors. Dude, he goes off, but then he cracks these drives off the ground. He just throws the ball out there.

• 4:17:22Speaker 01

  Wait, who is this?

• 4:17:23Jocko Willink?

  He's a guy.

• 4:17:24Speaker 01

  It's a, his handle is actually C V A underscore golf, I believe.

• 4:17:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like an influencer dude or something?

• 4:17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:17:31Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah. He's the most popular golfer there is. But it's, but it's.

• 4:17:38Speaker 01

  It is, man. He will be now.

• 4:17:39Jocko Willink?

  He will be. He should be. C, I think his first name begins with C. And then it's V A because he's from Virginia. He's from Virginia Beach, no less. And then what's the last part of it?

• 4:17:49Speaker 01

  I think it's just C V A golf.

• 4:17:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay, but his real thing is D O D king. And he tells people, he's like, because I'm the king. He says, and he says, I'm a, I'm five foot seven. I got crooked teeth and a mullet and I'm about to just crack this down the fairway.

• 4:18:11Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 4:18:12Jocko Willink?

  Down the fairway. And he throws the ball out and then he just walks up to it and just cracks it. And look, there's some of the keyboard warriors out there. They're saying, oh, it's fake. But then he'll do like a long version and be like, how fake is this? So throw it out there and just hit it. There's no edits.

• 4:18:28Speaker 01

  Oh, he's, he's good, man. He's blown up and he's doing some collabs and uh, yeah, God's got skills, man. He's not very big, but he sma- smashes it.

• 4:18:35Jocko Willink?

  So we'll get the, we, we gotta get you connected with the D O D king.

• 4:18:38Speaker 01

  I mean, I am a T using weasel.

• 4:18:41Jocko Willink?

  Right, but he doesn't want to be one of these people that's wearing golf shirts that are made by weasels. He wants to be probably, I would imagine, he's, because he's also like a working class dude. He's not a snob. He's out there, he's out there working. He's got a job, you know? So.

• 4:18:57Speaker 01

  I, I think he's already. Sporing someone else's stuff. That's what it is whenever you get a following but.

• 4:19:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well we'll see.

• 4:19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, we can collapse.

• 4:19:05Jocko Willink?

  We'll see. I don't think he's a weasel. I think he's a good American. He's from Virginia Beach. I think he's probably gonna be really interested in representing Hoolie, which is more legit than whatever bullshit he's rolling. Sorry now, no offense to DOD King. And look, I'm not a golfer, but he looks like he cracks it pretty good to me.

• 4:19:22Speaker 02

  For someone who's not a golfer, you seem to know a lot about it.

• 4:19:25Jocko Willink?

  Dude, once you got, he got in my algorithm.

• 4:19:28Speaker 01

  Got in your algorithm?

• 4:19:30Jocko Willink?

  So, props, props to that guy.

• 4:19:34Jocko Willink?

  So that's where people can find you. YouTube, over the top, Hoolie, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at Hoolie Golf. And then hooliegolf.com if you want to just go there and get a badass shirt. You could wear that shirt to a meeting. You could wear it to dinner and yes, you could wear it playing golf. And you got a bunch of cool designs that you're the designer of now, because we apparently, you're a design guy.

• 4:19:55Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not the only designer to give credit to our great designer.

• 4:19:58Jocko Willink?

  Check, check. Echo, did you have any more questions?

• 4:20:01Speaker 02

  That is it. Good to see you.

• 4:20:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks, man.

• 4:20:03Jocko Willink?

  Bobby, any other closing thoughts, man?

• 4:20:05Speaker 01

  No. Good times, man. Thank you.

• 4:20:08Jocko Willink?

  Wrapped it up. Well, thank you. Thank you for coming down. It's freaking legit and that guys are now retiring. Look, I hate the fact that you all have to retire, but they retire and you can come down here and kind of share your story. It's awesome. I appreciate it. Thanks for what you did for the country. Thanks for what you did for the Navy, for the teams. Thanks for what you did for tasking a bruiser. Thanks for the lessons that you passed on to the next generation that are out there using your lessons for their platoons right now.

• 4:20:44Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for what you did and you never faltered. You never wavered. You stepped up. You led and you set an example, an outstanding example. And you passed on the highest standards of the Frogman. So, thanks, bro.

• 4:20:59Speaker 01

  Thanks, brother. Appreciate it.

• 4:21:02Jocko Willink?

  And with that, and this actually means a lot in this particular case.

• 4:21:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:21:06Jocko Willink?

  Bobby Holland has left the building, because you know, that came from Elvis.

• 4:21:10Speaker 02

  Lead Bob, yeah.

• 4:21:11Jocko Willink?

  Elvis has left the building?

• 4:21:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:21:13Jocko Willink?

  That's where it comes from?

• 4:21:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, the layers.

• 4:21:15Jocko Willink?

  And so, today, there's a lot of meaning when I say that Bobby Holland, Lead Bob, has left the building. He's, we talked about it a little bit, he's a fan of Elvis.

• 4:21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:21:25Jocko Willink?

  So, Bobby Holland has left the building, awesome to have him on, and see what he's doing here, bringing back a lot of memories. Very cool, so, thanks, thanks to Lead Bob.

• 4:21:37Speaker 02

  It is always interesting to hear, even the same thing with GIF. Like, especially when there's other players and the whole history, the story, you know, Leif and like, you know, Tyler. I know Tyler. I've actually, I have a whole separate history with Tyler, by the way, I don't know if you guys knew this, but, um, so I've known Tyler.

• 4:21:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, you knew him from hanging out when you were.

• 4:21:59Speaker 02

  With Jeremy Kikko, yeah. Coming, yeah.

• 4:22:02Jocko Willink?

  A different Jeremy, by the way, than the Jeremy that we talked about today.

• 4:22:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:22:06Jocko Willink?

  The Jeremy that we talked about today is a different Jeremy.

• 4:22:09Speaker 02

  Different Jeremy than you're, yeah.

• 4:22:10Jocko Willink?

  Than the Jeremy that you're talking about. So, like, let's say there's a Hawaiian Jeremy?

• 4:22:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 4:22:13Jocko Willink?

  And then there's a different Jeremy.

• 4:22:15Speaker 02

  A not Hawaiian Jeremy, yeah, so, yeah, so it always is interesting to hear, like, another, essentially, another perspective of a timeline that I'm very familiar with, with characters that I'm very familiar with.

• 4:22:27Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of like, um, when they do a, like, a prequel, or a sequel.

• 4:22:31Speaker 02

  Prequel, yeah, yeah.

• 4:22:32Jocko Willink?

  But it's more like a prequel, right?

• 4:22:34Speaker 02

  Prequel.

• 4:22:34Jocko Willink?

  Because a sequel, you kind of, you're carrying on, but a prequel, you're kind of learning more about what you know about already.

• 4:22:40Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 4:22:41Jocko Willink?

  So, there's something a little cooler about it.

• 4:22:42Speaker 02

  Yep, exactly.

• 4:22:43Jocko Willink?

  I guess the only, Hulu is a sequel, right?

• 4:22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, there's more coming, more to come.

• 4:22:48Speaker 02

  Yep, exactly.

• 4:22:49Jocko Willink?

  Hulu, business, golf.

• 4:22:51Speaker 02

  There's a movie called Go, the name of the movie is Go. And it's a it's a

• 4:22:56Jocko Willink?

  We should make a energy drink called a go. Oh, we did. Cool. Okay, what's it about?

• 4:23:01Speaker 02

  Uh, it's a, you know, like a little thing, thing that they all, this group of people get into these kids or whatever. Uh, like, you know, young twenties, whatever. They go to Vegas and all this stuff. There's this trouble they get into. And they all have their, and they split up and they get back together. They split up or whatever with their different, um.

• 4:23:18Jocko Willink?

  Over time, over one weekend.

• 4:23:19Speaker 02

  It's like a night or so.

• 4:23:21Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 4:23:21Speaker 02

  You know, and but it's so it's like three movie, you know, like in three stories in one movie. So, and each one is from a different person's perspective. So it's the exact same story, but it's from this guy's perspective and this girl's perspective. It's like that. That's what it felt like.

• 4:23:36Jocko Willink?

  So you saw a different perspective today?

• 4:23:37Speaker 02

  Another perspective, you know, a lot, a lot of overlap, which makes it so interesting. And that's what made the movie so interesting. Cause when, when the overlap, you're like, oh, that's what was going on at that time. You see what I'm saying? Same deal.

• 4:23:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it's good to be able to capture that stuff. I mean, and even Bob was telling me, you know, he was going through like just thinking about stuff. And he said on the podcast, he's been doing some thinking about everything and you start to remember little things. And like even the story he was telling about being in Mount and like rappelling off the roof and like, I'm gonna think about it more. I can't really remember it right now. And, and so it's nice to be able to capture. Like at some point you forget stuff that happened. The more stuff that happens in your life, the more stuff you forget about. The further away you get from it, you know, Leif sending me those emails and Bob would say in afterman, he's like, that email account doesn't exist anymore. So Bob doesn't even have access to those emails that Leif sent me.

• 4:24:30Jocko Willink?

  So, man, to have, and those emails, those old emails are really interesting to look at because they're a, they're a,

• 4:24:39Jocko Willink?

  a stamp of time.

• 4:24:41Speaker 02

  It's like a historical.

• 4:24:42Jocko Willink?

  And it's you, you wrote it, like you wrote it. And that's you at that time. And you, you can get older and you can learn more and you can become more wise and you can become more jaded. But at that time, this is a pretty good representation of who you were and how you felt at a certain time.

• 4:24:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 4:25:00Jocko Willink?

  So, pretty cool to be able to have those documents and be able to go through them and get back those memories. Even, even after we got done recording, he was like, he, he said, when I started reading, um. He was kinda like, wait, oh, he was like coming back to him. The memory of it came back to him. So it's very cool to be able to reopen those things and remember details that you might not otherwise remember and don't think about and all that stuff. So thanks for coming on, Bob. Appreciate it. Lead Bob. Lead Bob. Still on the path after all these years. Speaking of the path, Def Reset's coming. Yep.

• 4:25:40Jocko Willink?

  Def Reset is starting Jan- listen, technically speaking, starts January 1st. Reality starts right now. Like if you, you gotta be ready for Def Reset. You can't just show up. It's like going to BUDs. You just don't roll into BUDs. Oh, first phase, day, what do they call it? One, one day. Like first week, first day. Yeah. They call it one, one day. If you roll into a one, one day and you haven't done some, they give you, even the, even they, the millet, the Navy, gives you six weeks prior to one, one day. So one, one day is coming January 1st. You gotta be ready. You got the prep phase going on right now. We got the warning order. So we're gonna get our lives, physical, mental, professional, family,

• 4:26:25Jocko Willink?

  leadership, we're gonna get them all squared away. Starting January 1st. There's prep work that's happening now. Don't go into it cold. You won't make it. So go to thedefreset.com. We got workouts and fitness with Jason Kalipa. We got leadership with Echelon Front. We got discipline directives coming from me. We got Jaco Fuel. We got, there's like benefits, benefits, you called them. We're gonna give away like tickets to the muster. We're gonna wait a bunch of Jaco Fuel stuff. So defreset.com. Come and check it out. Let's get on the path. Be prepared. January 1st is coming. It's December 1st right now when we're recording this. I don't know when it's coming out, but time is ticking.

• 4:27:08Jocko Willink?

  Be ready, Def Reset, go to thedefreset.com. Speaking of Jaco Fuel, JacoFuel.com. I am currently, at this time, two goes deep.

• 4:27:18Speaker 02

  Yep, I'm one.

• 4:27:19Jocko Willink?

  And I'm feeling very fired up. Now, look, am I fired up because Lee Bob was here? Sure.

• 4:27:23Speaker 02

  A little bit, kinda.

• 4:27:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Am I also fired up because I had a few go? Two go? Yes, I am. So, do I have downside? Am I gonna crash? Nope, I'm not gonna crash. Am I gonna get type 2 diabetes? No, I'm not. Am I gonna get some other weird uh, gut problems because I have artificial sweeteners? No, none of that's gonna happen. So my downside is nothing, my upside is everything. Go to JacoFuel.com, get yourself some go. You can also go to Wawa, Vitamin Shop, GNC, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hannaford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefern, Shoprite, HEB, HEB Down, they're in Tejas, Meyer, up in the Midwest, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness Shields, small gyms everywhere. And listen, if you own a small school,

• 4:28:09Jocko Willink?

  a jujitsu school, CrossFit school, powerlifting school, Olympic lifting school, maybe it's just a straight Globo Gym. But you wanna sell Jaco Fuel, email [email protected]. Chaz, he'll get in touch with you. Have you met Chaz yet? Oh, old school. Old school in the game. Just getting after it. So, that's what we're doing. Molk protein, cuz sometimes, look, let's face it, sometimes you need 30 grams of protein. Like, right now?

• 4:28:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:28:37Jocko Willink?

  RTD. Just crack one open, you're good, 30 grams of protein. You're good.

• 4:28:41Speaker 02

  I figured something out.

• 4:28:43Jocko Willink?

  What's that?

• 4:28:43Speaker 02

  About the, the Molk Banana RTD. Little side, side note.

• 4:28:48Jocko Willink?

  Please share.

• 4:28:48Speaker 02

  So...

• 4:28:50Jocko Willink?

  Do share.

• 4:28:51Speaker 02

  So, you know, like, me, me, like many people, I'm no, you know,

• 4:28:55Speaker 02

  banana's not the number one flavor. Usually, it's gonna be chocolate. Usually.

• 4:28:59Jocko Willink?

  This is just in world?

• 4:29:00Speaker 02

  Just in general. Yeah, you know, banana flavor. It's kind of like, you know, it takes a special, you know, like you, it's very rare that that's the number one flavor. Some people like I dig.

• 4:29:08Jocko Willink?

  For an individual human being?

• 4:29:10Speaker 02

  Yes, to prefer bananas. Their number one favorite flavor in general. Right. And I'm one of those people where I like the chocolate. I like the whatever. So the bananas like, fine, but, but for whatever reason, freaking the banana, Molk R T D is my number one favorite one. I don't know why.

• 4:29:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:29:26Speaker 02

  Till now. So I used to make these homemade milkshakes back in the day when I was

• 4:29:30Jocko Willink?

  When?

• 4:29:30Speaker 02

  teenager.

• 4:29:34Speaker 02

  And the, the formula was freaking good, like really good. So here's the recipe. It's sugar, milk, vanilla, one egg, one raw egg.

• 4:29:48Speaker 02

  And one banana.

• 4:29:52Speaker 02

  Bro, I'm telling you, you get the ingredients and the proportions perfect, bro, it tastes freaking super good.

• 4:29:58Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 4:29:58Speaker 02

  Especially if the banana is a ripe banana. You can't get the underripe banana, the pre-ripe banana. Don't do that. Ripe banana.

• 4:30:04Jocko Willink?

  What was Tulsi's deal with bananas?

• 4:30:06Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, the frozen one?

• 4:30:07Jocko Willink?

  Frozen.

• 4:30:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, to make it more creamy, whatever. But nonetheless, that was the formula for my homemade milkshake. It's freaking, bro, it's really good. Especially blended up really good. The egg makes it like thicker inside. That's really good. Oh yeah, ice too. That's what the Molk R T D banana tastes like. Bro, it tastes exactly like it.

• 4:30:24Jocko Willink?

  G T G.

• 4:30:25Speaker 02

  G T G, big time. And if you put in the fridge for a long time or the freezer for a short time, it'll be extra cold, which adds another layer of like, um, what do you call appeal to the taste. Bro, I'm telling you, I'm telling you.

• 4:30:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there you go. All kinds of good stuff. Joint Warfare, Super Cril, Vitamin D, Cold War. That's it. That's what we're doing. Hydrate, hydrate.

• 4:30:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:30:45Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna need to hydrate. You get done with that?

• 4:30:48Speaker 02

  Even before that.

• 4:30:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then here's a key component to your daily life. Greens and creatine. If you're not doing greens and creatine in the morning, you should be. There's no one that shouldn't be doing that. Not one person. Everyone should be doing greens and creatine like brushing your teeth. Brush your teeth, greens and creatine. Actually, don't do it right away because you get that weird. What's that thing? What is it? You don't want to do that. You brush your teeth, you can't drink, you can't eat anything for how long? Half an hour?

• 4:31:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:31:17Jocko Willink?

  Forty-five minutes?

• 4:31:18Speaker 02

  Forty-five minutes.

• 4:31:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so forty-five minutes, then. Maybe you get done with your workout. By the time you're done with your workout, hundred percent, you're cleared hot.

• 4:31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:31:26Jocko Willink?

  For greens and creatine.

• 4:31:27Speaker 02

  Or you can follow my protocol if you don't know already, I said it before, right when you wake up, no problem. Great, I don't care, the greens I don't put in, but I put, just put creatine hydrate.

• 4:31:37Jocko Willink?

  Pre-brush?

• 4:31:38Speaker 02

  Pre-brush, hundred percent. Pre-brush, creatine and, and the hydrate.

• 4:31:42Jocko Willink?

  When do you brush your teeth, bro?

• 4:31:43Speaker 02

  Right after that.

• 4:31:44Jocko Willink?

  What, you go down to the kitchen and you're like functioning, doing stuff?

• 4:31:47Speaker 02

  Bro, it's staged right on my nightstand.

• 4:31:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:31:49Speaker 02

  A whole thing of hydrate, water's already there, Hawaiian from last night, see what I'm saying? Hydrate, creatine, right there. Here's what's bad. Anyone that goes in my room and they know what cocaine looks like, you know how the creatine you put in, you spill a little bit, it looks, it looks bad. But, hey, man, if you can endure that, that's a perfect staging, uh, sequence. See what I'm saying? Yes, pre-brush, boom, done, before I even get up. I'm already fucking in, see what I'm saying? With the creatine.

• 4:32:17Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna give that the triple stamp of approval.

• 4:32:19Speaker 02

  Dig it, dig it, hydrate and creatine.

• 4:32:22Jocko Willink?

  I had the vision of you walking around your house with morning breath for like an hour. Your wife comes down, Sarah Charles is like, yo, get back away from.

• 4:32:30Speaker 02

  Go back upstairs.

• 4:32:31Jocko Willink?

  Get out the, get out the Listerine homes. So that's what we're doing, jockofuel.com, go check it out, originusa.com. We're doing jiu-jitsu. We're lifting, we're hunting. Are we playing golf? Some people are.

• 4:32:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, kinda. I mean, shoot, you hear freaking Lee Bob talk about it, you're kinda like, oh, it might be a little bit more to it. I've never, you've never played, have you ever played a round of golf on the golf course?

• 4:32:53Jocko Willink?

  I have played like literally one round of golf.

• 4:32:56Speaker 02

  On the golf course?

• 4:32:56Jocko Willink?

  On a golf course. Where, where else would I play around?

• 4:32:58Speaker 02

  I don't know, you know how they say mini, I've played mini golf, it's not the same.

• 4:33:01Jocko Willink?

  I've played more mini golf, yeah.

• 4:33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I played mini golf. I've never played one single round.

• 4:33:05Jocko Willink?

  I always played mini golf. I was playing mini golf. My son, he was probably like six. And he straight up like full driver with the putter, like full driver shot that thing like Tiger Woods.

• 4:33:20Jocko Willink?

  Bro, it was like such a hazard. It was, if it would have hit somebody like another kid, it would have been major, major injury concussion. Possible like temple shot death. I don't know.

• 4:33:34Speaker 02

  But I believe.

• 4:33:35Jocko Willink?

  Uh, originusa.com. That's what we're doing. Get awesome clothes and they're all made in America. Look, we in this country have fought for freedom. And right now, we're selling that freedom. Selling it. Go and buy something from China. You're, you're, you're, you're selling it. You're, you're giving it away. All this freedom that we fought for being sold. Don't let it happen. Buy American. Buy American made. We go through the most extreme lengths to produce and manufacture things in the United States of America at originusa.com. Everything that you need. Workout clothes, hunt clothes, jeans.

• 4:34:20Jocko Willink?

  You need a pair of jeans. You probably need two pairs of jeans. We got you. Get American made jeans. Support the American worker. Support the American economy. Support American security. Because if we can't produce things in this country, we don't have a country.

• 4:34:37Jocko Willink?

  Originusa.com. Go get some.

• 4:34:40Speaker 02

  It's true. Also, Jocko Store. Going to represent on the bill, whether you're on Def Reset or not, you're just on the path in general, or if you're taking a break from the path, doesn't matter. You can still represent. Look, I'm not recommending it. I'm not over here recommending getting off the path.

• 4:34:53Jocko Willink?

  If you're taking a break from the path, yeah, by the time the order shows up, you should definitely be back on the path.

• 4:34:59Speaker 02

  From an ideal standpoint, I think you're right. But on reality, boots on the ground. Hey, we live in a world where some people aren't on the path 100% of the time. What I'm saying is it doesn't matter necessarily.

• 4:35:12Jocko Willink?

  It's hard to put on a discipline equals freedom tee shirt. And not be on the path.

• 4:35:16Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 4:35:17Jocko Willink?

  Hard to put on a Def Core t-shirt, a t-shirt that literally says Def Core on it. Discipline equals freedom to the core. And you're like, yeah, I'm gonna, where's that donut at?

• 4:35:27Speaker 02

  Yes, it's very hard. You're correct.

• 4:35:29Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 4:35:29Speaker 02

  But we live in an imperfect world in human beings, which we all are.

• 4:35:33Jocko Willink?

  I can see what kind of mood you're in today. Did you violate something? Do we have problems? Did you train today?

• 4:35:40Speaker 02

  I'm a very understanding, I did not train today. I'm a very understanding person. See what I'm saying? That's all I'm saying. That's really the end all be all point that I'm trying to make. Look, but you can still represent. When you do, you want a new shirt that you want to represent with, you go to jocko store.com. That's where you get it. Discipline equals freedom regardless if you're resting or not, it still does equal freedom. You see what I'm saying?

• 4:36:01Speaker 02

  Good. You think things are gonna go freaking perfectly the way you want them to go right now, all the time, every single day? They don't.

• 4:36:08Jocko Willink?

  No, not gonna happen.

• 4:36:09Speaker 02

  It's okay. It's okay. Everything's gonna be alright. Anyway, you want to represent jocko store.com? If you want to get in the short locker subscription, well, that is the new design every single month. It's good. People like them. Check them out. See if you like them. If you like a boom subscription, that's where you can get that as well.

• 4:36:23Jocko Willink?

  Hey, speaking of America, Americans, look, do we need milk? Yes, we do. Do we get 30 grams of milk? 30 grams of protein in milk? Yes.

• 4:36:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:36:32Jocko Willink?

  Do we get 14 grams of protein from a malt cookie? We do.

• 4:36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:36:36Jocko Willink?

  Guess what else? Sometimes you need supplemental protein. Actually, your primary source of protein.

• 4:36:41Speaker 02

  Primary, yeah.

• 4:36:42Jocko Willink?

  Let's go steak.

• 4:36:43Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 4:36:43Jocko Willink?

  Let's go American steak. Let's go.

• 4:36:47Jocko Willink?

  Let's go primalbeef.com and let's go coloradocraftbeef.com. Two American companies. Bringing you steak that tastes like.

• 4:36:58Jocko Willink?

  It's just, it's just next level. It's next level.

• 4:37:01Speaker 02

  On that grass fed fruit finish. But I had the, um, I got the burgers, right? Last night or last night I was making the burgers. So here's a good tactic too. Just, it's a side tip. Look. Does it matter?

• 4:37:13Speaker 02

  Is this essential to do? No, but it's a side tip might help you out. So what I do is I grab the burger. I grab three of them, right? You know, they come in the stacks, right? Get them to room temperature. I'm ball them up into one big ball and I make them into a bunch of sliders for the kids. Grass feed, fruit, finish.

• 4:37:29Jocko Willink?

  That's where you're at.

• 4:37:30Speaker 02

  That's what I did last night. Yes.

• 4:37:31Jocko Willink?

  Check it out. We got you. ColoradoCraftBeef.com and PrimalBeef.com. Go check those out. Subscribe to the podcast. Check out Jaco Underground. Check out our YouTube channel. Check out Psychological Warfare. Check out FlipsideCanvas.com. Dakota Myers selling you cool stuff to hang on your wall. Keep you on the path. Also, a bunch of books. I've written a bunch of books. You know what they are. And look, they will help you. They will help you. Read them. Read them. And then, look, you got kids in your life? Get them away. The Warrior Kid books, one, two, three, four, and five. These are the books. When you get them and you see kids read them, you see their lives change. So that's what we're doing. Check them out.

• 4:38:15Jocko Willink?

  Mike and the Dragons, About Face, Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy Leadership. It's all there. Echelon Front. You heard about Leif Abin today.

• 4:38:24Jocko Willink?

  He and I have a leadership consultancy. It's called Echelon Front. Go to EchelonFront.com. We can help your organization. We can help you with every problem that you have because all the problems that you have are leadership problems and we solve problems through leadership. We got live events. We can come into your, into your organization and work with you on a long-term basis. We will figure out a plan to get you and your team aligned. So EchelonFront.com. We also have an online training academy. If you want to

• 4:38:56Jocko Willink?

  train, look, for leadership, but it's training for life because when you interact with other human beings, which you do all day long, every day, unless you're a hermit, you gotta interact with other people. That's leadership. So you've got to lead yourself, you've got to lead other people, you've got to interact with other people. Go to extremeownership.com and learn these skills. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee, she's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org, also HeroesAndHorses.org, also Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org, and finally, the Navy SEAL Foundation,

• 4:39:39Jocko Willink?

  which is where Bobby's wife works. She's been there for a while, but there's a bunch of great human beings. These are the people, this is the organization that takes care of SEALs' families and the SEALs. But when someone gets killed or wounded, their support is unbelievably strong. So check them out as well. Navy SEAL Foundation. If you want to connect with Bob, he's on the interwebs, hooliegolf.com. He's on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, @hooligolf. He's on YouTube with Over the Top Hoolie. And Echo is at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. And again, just be careful, because the algorithm, you'll look at one golf thing,

• 4:40:24Jocko Willink?

  and the next thing you know, you'll have a bunch of golf stuff inside your algorithm, showing you the DOD king. So just be careful, or whoever else. You know, if you look at one dog, one knife, you'll have a thing full of knives.

• 4:40:37Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 4:40:38Jocko Willink?

  If you talk about something, it'll pick it up, put it in there. It's wild.

• 4:40:43Speaker 02

  You've got to turn off your microphone setting on your phone.

• 4:40:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's true. Sounds like a good plan. So just be careful. We're there, but there's algorithms on the hunt. Once again, thanks Lead Bob, Bobby Holland, for joining us today. Check out hooliegolf.com. Most important, thanks to Bob for his service, leadership in the teams, and for our great nation. And thanks to Beth as well, for everything you do for all of us. And thanks to all the personnel out there in uniform right now that are serving and protecting us around the world. Your sacrifice is appreciated and will not be forgotten. And the same goes to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret Service, and all first responders. Thank you for serving and protecting us here at home. We are grateful.

• 4:41:32Jocko Willink?

  And everyone else out there, you got a good example from Lead Bob Bobby Holland.

• 4:41:40Jocko Willink?

  Step up, work hard, have fun. Have fun, man. Put some Elvis in your life. Take care of your friends.

• 4:41:51Jocko Willink?

  Take care of your family, run things, raise the bar. Stay humble and of course,

• 4:41:59Jocko Willink?

  keep getting after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.