Play It Again: Joaquin Phoenix

“I wanted to be good, but I completely burned up the morning,” said Joaquin Phoenix on day 1 of Eddington https://www.fandango.com/eddington-2025-240285/movie-overview. “Ari and I stayed on set when everyone left for lunch—and, slowly, something emerged. I don’t know if it’s any good, but it didn’t make me want to end everything.” With the film’s arrival in theaters, we return to our candid, long-form talk with Phoenix. At the top, we unpack his transformation in Joker: Folie à Deux https://www.joker.movie/ (7:10), his free-wheeling collaborations with director Todd Phillips (9:32), and the nomadic upbringing that marked his early years (13:00). Then, he reflects on his childhood television debut in Hill Street Blues (20:27), the brilliance of Robert De Niro (25:53), and his formative performances in To Die For and Parenthood (32:45). On the back-half, we discuss how the polarizing mockumentary, I’m Still Here (45:15), inspired his singular collaborations with directors Spike Jonze, Paul Thomas Anderson, James Gray, and Lynne Ramsay (49:30). We also talk about the evolution of his acting process (50:47), the impassioned Oscars speech he delivered accepting Best Actor for Joker (56:15), and whether he’ll ever turn in what he believes is a ‘great’ performance (1:00:40). Hear our episode with Ari Aster https://talkeasypod.com/ari-aster/ and watch on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc9VjN4SqpA&t=1739s. Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected]. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:39Sam Fragoso?

  Today, actor and activist Joaquin Phoenix. To run through his credits is to name some of the finest films of the past 30 years. "To Die For" by Gus Van Sant, "Two Lovers" by James Gray, "Her" by Spike Jonze, "The Master" by Paul Thomas Anderson, "You Were Never Really Here" by Lynn Ramsey, "Come On, Come On" by Mike Mills. And that's just naming a few of my personal favorites. Whether he's playing a burnt-out teen in "To Die For," a traumatized WWII vet in "The Master," or Napoleon in "Napoleon," his work always feels more lived than observed. He doesn't transform so much as he inhabits. His latest

• 1:21Sam Fragoso?

  transformation is in "Eddington," the new COVID-era Western directed by Ari Aster. Set in May of 2020, the film revolves around a kind of social and political standoff between Joe Cross, a local sheriff played by Phoenix, and Ted Garcia, the incumbent mayor played by Pedro Pascal. After months of lockdown and mask restrictions, Cross decides to mount a campaign for mayor, challenging Garcia and a community reeling from the pandemic and polarization that came from that period.

• 1:53Sam Fragoso?

  On Sunday, I sat with the film's director, Ari Aster, for a lengthy conversation to unpack the politics and purpose of the film, especially in this climate. If you haven't heard that episode, you can listen to it wherever you're listening to this right now. You can also watch the episode in full on our new YouTube channel. Just search Talk Easy on YouTube, and it should pop right up. We've also included a link to the page in the description of this episode. When I sat with Phoenix last fall, he was in the throes of promoting the new Joker film. But as you'll hear, he's not exactly one to be on message or to stick to talking points. Like his work on screen, there's nothing programmatic or rehearsed about his answers.

• 2:38Sam Fragoso?

  He seems to be finding them in the moment, as you'll experience them here today. We talk about everything from his nomadic childhood to his first roles on television, to his early days making Eddington with Ari, the impassioned speech he delivered accepting best actor for the Joker movie, the first one, and his very genuine ambition to one day turn in a great performance, which he somehow doesn't believe he's done yet, but I'd argue is on full display in Eddington or any number of the films we talk about in this conversation. And so with that, here is Joaquin Phoenix.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  What's up? How's it going?

• 3:36Sam Fragoso?

  Joaquin Phoenix, nice to meet you.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Nice. Well, we met outside.

• 3:40Sam Fragoso?

  Joaquin Phoenix, nice to meet you for a second time.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Nice to meet you as well for a second time. Sorry, I didn't-- I didn't mean to start off like out of a cereal. I just-- I-- yeah, we've met.

• 3:53Sam Fragoso?

  How are you doing?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Well, um, how am I doing? You mean, how am I interpreting and perceiving my life?

• 4:00Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Really, really good.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  But yes, I have to say, I am very appreciative of my life right now.

• 4:08Sam Fragoso?

  Do you want to power rank all the things that you're appreciative of in order?

• 4:12Speaker 01

  No. Oh, I don't.

• 4:15Sam Fragoso?

  We can go back to that. Bring it back to that.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Sure. Uh, my son, yesterday we were having lunch and he does like a gratitude kind of list, you know, during lunch. And um, so it just, it reminded me of that. Also, then at lunch, they asked how, what, what I was gonna say before and I, I didn't say anything.

• 4:32Sam Fragoso?

  Why didn't you say anything?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Cause I thought I'd say it for this.

• 4:35Sam Fragoso?

  That's what I thought.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted to, I just wanted it to be fresh when I said it here. No, I did say things, but they were, you know, that's, that's, that's for him.

• 4:43Sam Fragoso?

  This is almost like a disclaimer. Um, I heard you in one interview say that there's nothing worse than actors talking about acting.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 4:52Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't agree with that.

• 4:54Sam Fragoso?

  You don't agree with that?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know why I said that. Maybe I felt that way at the time. And maybe I'll feel that way once I leave the studio today, after you hear me talk about it.

• 5:03Sam Fragoso?

  Well, the second part of the quote, which is even funnier than the first part, is, "And the reason I keep making movies, which is the reason I keep doing interviews, is because I hate the last thing I did. And I'm always trying to rectify my wrongs." The premise of this episode, I thought, was-

• 5:19Speaker 01

  You wanna help me-

• 5:21Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  -rectify my wrongs. I don't even do it in an hour, but I'll give it a shot.

• 5:27Sam Fragoso?

  It's my understanding, like, at home, when you're alone and you have time to read a, a script, you sometimes get this, like, strong feeling in your gut, a feeling that you've described as, quote, "very meaningful" to me. I figure this is a good place to start, like, reading this new film of yours from Todd Phillips and Scott Silver. What was that gut feeling this time around?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  I don't remember really what the feeling I, I had associated with it was, but I do know that working with Todd and in this world with this character, I know that we're gonna find something that's like satisfying to be a part of, like, to be a part of that creation in that moment. So I feel like certain about that. I don't know that it's gonna work out, or anyone else will like it, or think it's good, but I know that I'm gonna have an experience of working with Todd, where it feels like we are exploring something, or uncovering something new, or, you know, I really hate hearing actors talk about acting. It's just, it's the fucking worst.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  I mean, congratulations, you did it. We're like five minutes in and you've done it. Congratulations.

• 6:40Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know whether to feel proud or ashamed.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know either. Honestly, a part of me is like impressed with you and also like repulsed.

• 6:49Sam Fragoso?

  This is not, this is not a familiar feeling.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Trust me, however much you are repulsed by me, I, I am much more by myself.

• 6:57Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, I, I'm sure, I'm sure. Although I, I promise you, I am much more repulsed by myself than I am of you. There's, there's no question of that. Every day, you know, you wake up and.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  And there you are.

• 7:09Sam Fragoso?

  It's a tough beat.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Well, just avoid the mirror.

• 7:13Sam Fragoso?

  I try that.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  You, you don't have kids.

• 7:16Sam Fragoso?

  Not yet.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'll change.

• 7:17Sam Fragoso?

  That changes it.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Things, yeah.

• 7:19Sam Fragoso?

  What happens?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  I mean, maybe simply you're just not the first thing you think about. You have like immediately like purpose that is much more important than like any thought that you may have. That's nice. Wow, vodka, smart, that's smart.

• 7:37Sam Fragoso?

  Just water on mine, weird, odd. We gave you that. Yeah, I mean, that's the sort of entrapment at this point.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:45Sam Fragoso?

  Somewhere in the second or third week of making the first film, you said to Todd, maybe start working on a sequel.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Uh, about halfway through the shoot, I think maybe it started off as a joke. This character, imagine where you could put him and, and what could happen. And, and then I, I became more, more serious about it. And long before we finished shooting, I'd been talking about it quite seriously. I didn't, I didn't really want it to end.

• 8:11Sam Fragoso?

  Is that usual on projects that you don't want them to end?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I, I guess it's, um, yeah, I think I spent a lot of the time going, when is this gonna, when is this gonna, I don't know if I can, I don't have to keep this up. I'm just, and then maybe it's like when you want school to be over and then it's over and you think like, I don't know, but now when am I gonna see my friends?

• 8:30Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  It's just gonna change what we're doing for the summers. But I think I just, I felt like there's something about the, the character and the way that Todd and I were working.

• 8:39Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  I just wanted to, to continue that. I mean, I mocked up like 10 different posters of famous movies, putting Joker in all of them, like Rosemary's Baby, Yentl, Wolf of the Cuckoo's Nest, The Godfather, like every classic film. I worked with this amazing on set photographer, Nico, and he took photos of me and then photoshopped them into these posters. And they're like, pretty seamless. They they look like amazing. And I gave it to Todd, because the joke was, put Joker in space, you know, put Joker on on ice skates. I don't know. It's like, but the Yentl poster, like you see that and you're like, yeah, that should be made. So I was hoping that that would inspire some ideas in Todd.

• 9:23Sam Fragoso?

  Well, and and one of the ideas it inspired is between him and the production designer, a man named Mark Friedberg. He created this elaborate 360 set for the movie. But how did that change how you found your way into a scene?

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess. I mean, whatever happens on a set, that is like part of the process. And so if it's that you're on a set and there's only one fucking wall that you're shooting against, and everything else is open and you're just seeing wires and lights, that's also part of it. Like, it certainly feels better as an actor to be fully immersed in a space, to feel like you can go anywhere. But I don't know what is the best thing for for me. And sometimes fighting against that might be good as well. But certainly, you walked onto this set and you forget that you're on a stage. It's like the fucking holodecker. Was that what it was in Star Trek? Like, aren't they just in like, you know, Star Trek?

• 10:18Sam Fragoso?

  I'd not much.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Well, you should watch it. I can't let you do all this fucking research.

• 10:23Sam Fragoso?

  On you.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  And you don't.

• 10:24Sam Fragoso?

  Well, get in a Star Trek movie.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Know. Star Trek, when I was a kid, we had like one channel that came through on the television when I was a kid, and Star Trek, The Next Generation, was one of the the shows. So anyways, that's how I know fucking Star Trek. Who cares? You're right. You can also just go, hey, hey, let's not go down this road and talk this story about Star Trek, because I don't really fucking care. Because I don't.

• 10:49Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I think we should try to talk about things that we mutually care about.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:53Sam Fragoso?

  There's a lot of singing and dancing.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  I don't care about that.

• 10:56Sam Fragoso?

  Yes. I'm not done.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:58Sam Fragoso?

  Have faith in me.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I know, but. I mean, like, I want you to feel relaxed and I got time, but not really.

• 11:10Sam Fragoso?

  Wow. Strong.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Very strong.

• 11:12Sam Fragoso?

  Very strong.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like.

• 11:14Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, 80 proof.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 11:16Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, no problem.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 11:17Sam Fragoso?

  Um, I was watching it last night at the Century City Mall. I was thinking about you 40 years prior in 1981, you and your family at the same mall, wearing gold tank tops from Kmart.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Right, but not all, not all of us, only the three eldest.

• 11:34Sam Fragoso?

  Sometimes singing Can't Buy Me Love.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true.

• 11:37Sam Fragoso?

  Iris Burton was at that performance in Century City Mall. What do you remember about that?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  How do you know that that's true, any of that's true? Cause if I said it, it's probably not true. And if somebody else said it, it's certainly not true. Where are you getting your information from?

• 11:51Sam Fragoso?

  The point is, when you were performing 40 years ago, singing and dancing, did you enjoy doing that?

• 11:57Speaker 01

  I did, I didn't like rehearsing.

• 12:01Sam Fragoso?

  With the family, just in general?

• 12:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I love my family, but I didn't like rehearsing. And it's so funny how there are those things in life that never change or dissipate, or, or kind of like these foundational pieces of your personality, particularly when it comes to something that's kind of creative expression, because it's such a familiar feeling to me. Anytime I go make a movie, I'm 40, now I'm 50, and I still feel like that kid oftentimes. And I don't really fucking know what it is, right? It might've just been like, yeah, maybe I wanted to be doing something, something else. I have like this like romantic version of it in my head, which I still maintain, which is that, that I just want the feeling to be like authentic and original,

• 12:47Speaker 01

  and I just want to be a part of it when it comes up.

• 12:50Sam Fragoso?

  And something about rehearsing takes the romance out of that.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but that may not be true. It just might be the story I'm telling myself. It might just be because I'm fucking lazy. I don't really know, right? But it feels that way that I seem to feel like, well, there'll be people and, you know, and you'll be reacting to, to them, you'll be reacting to the moment. I'm, we're sitting here in the, in the living room. I'm just wearing my regular shorts. I put on those gold shorts? Oh, man. I put on those fucking gold shorts. Look out. That's what I say to my dad. I say, Dad, look out. Yeah. So when we actually played and we're singing, yeah, it was fucking fun.

• 13:31Sam Fragoso?

  It's true. Those things that are foundational, it's hard to break away from that. There's something in you that was like, we'll do it when we do it.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  I think so, but you know, I don't know. Maybe I could be a better actor. I would have been better. Maybe I should have like rehearsed more. Maybe I should.

• 13:46Sam Fragoso?

  I know you're wondering.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  I've been making a mistake.

• 13:48Sam Fragoso?

  Was the point of this podcast to figure out whether or not you've been a good actor? And the answer is?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't need the podcast to tell me, no, I know that there is much to improve on. But that's the cool thing. Life, you get to.

• 14:02Sam Fragoso?

  Keep rolling.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Just get to keep doing shit over and over. And there is no finish line.

• 14:07Sam Fragoso?

  Well, there's a finish line.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Well, you die.

• 14:09Sam Fragoso?

  Right. When you guys drove across the country from Florida to Los Angeles in a beat up station wagon, it was missing a back window. Your mom was a roommate with Penny Marshall in college. She called and said, what do you think? And she's like, don't know if you should come.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Who told you that? Cause none of that is true, but that sounds great.

• 14:29Sam Fragoso?

  None of that's true?

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Where did, I've never heard that before in my life.

• 14:31Sam Fragoso?

  It was from you.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Oh, there you go. Let me have another drink here.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. Now that's, okay.

• 14:41Sam Fragoso?

  With the drink, it's feeling true, right?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  It is feeling true. That is true.

• 14:45Sam Fragoso?

  In those early years, the seven of you were posted up in that one bedroom apartment in the valley.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:52Sam Fragoso?

  That didn't allow children.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Or dogs.

• 14:54Sam Fragoso?

  Or dogs. With a landlady that lived above you.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:59Sam Fragoso?

  How did you guys sneak out to do auditions?

• 15:02Speaker 01

  I don't know. The woman that lived above us, she was good with us. It was the owner of the building who wasn't cool with us. She's the one that would alert us that the lady was coming in. And that's when we would go into the laundry room to hide. And the thing is, there were always like so many people in our lives that were just good to us for reasons I don't really know, because we must've been some fucking shabby motherfuckers. Seriously.

• 15:32Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean by that?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Well, I mean. What was this like the eighties? My parents were still my mom, no makeup, long hair. My dad with the beard, yet river rain. At the time was I, yeah, I was leaf then, leaf liberty summer. They would've been like, what the fuck is that? You know what I mean? It would be like crazy fucking dippies. I don't know. So I imagine that we looked fucking shabby. Probably did, but we had a lot of good people that helped us.

• 16:04Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, along the way. You know, I started the show in part because of a guy named Studs Terkel. He used to do radio in Chicago. He's an interviewer and he did interviews with everyone from like James Baldwin to the guy who drove his bus. And it instilled in my dad this like desire to talk to people that he'd meet in the world, whether it's like people on the bus or like the driver, he'd always talk about and ask about their stories. And I read somewhere that this is something like you and your father would do.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  My dad would do, yeah.

• 16:35Sam Fragoso?

  Do you remember those interactions and like what did they do for you?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  I mean, I think he was just a person that would just talk to anybody. You know, I mean, he just was like, um, my dad is like, he's a tough dude. So he wasn't scared of anybody and he also had like a really strong faith. So he navigated the world with like a certain amount of confidence, I guess. So I just, I know that he would talk to whomever it was, you know, somebody panhandling on the street. I think he was probably more comfortable talking to somebody that you just met on the street than like an executive at NBC, to be honest. That probably.

• 17:13Sam Fragoso?

  It's where your mother was working.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that probably made him uncomfortable. But I was like, when I grew up, I'm definitely not going to do that. Like I gotta make money and build a wall. Cause like, I don't want to talk to anybody ever. That's what it like instilled in me.

• 17:29Sam Fragoso?

  Is that true?

• 17:29Speaker 01

  No, but I have built a wall and it's security system is fucking epic.

• 17:36Sam Fragoso?

  I'm sure. You don't have to get into it.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  No, I, but I would, cause it's like.

• 17:40Sam Fragoso?

  It seemed like you want to.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  I want you to come into my world just because I want to see you go through like all of the different checkpoints.

• 17:48Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know what you think this show is, but it's feeling like that.

• 17:52Sam Fragoso?

  But did it instill in you a curiosity in people?

• 17:56Speaker 01

  I wish that I was being a bit more sincere here. Um, let me see if I can get into that place because I like what you're saying. And I wish that I would have just said that from the beginning instead of making a joke about building walls. I wish I would have said it made me more curious.

• 18:08Sam Fragoso?

  I kind of think the joke and the sincerity can go hand in hand. They can be together.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  No, we're not doing that.

• 18:14Sam Fragoso?

  Actually, we are gonna keep both things.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  I really, honestly, I don't know, but I hope that would make me curious and really more than anything, just not judgmental. But I don't know. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. I think Mike Mills told me about Studs Trickle, maybe. And maybe if we were looking at him for, um, reference for this movie we did.

• 18:38Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, come on, come on.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Come on, come on. Yeah.

• 18:41Sam Fragoso?

  At some point, you land a role on a show called Hill Street Blues. And the shoot produced, quote, "A feeling I've been chasing ever since." What did that feel like for the first time? Like, did you know it was special and instantaneous?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  I think the very first job that I did, me and my sister were guest starring in a show that my brother was starred in. And that was the first time I had the feeling, which I don't know how you describe it, fucking jolt of electricity. Anything you've ever had, any excitement or that jolt of inspiration and energy like coursing through your body, like you feel like tingly. So I had it then, but that was more in reaction to something else, right? Which is these other characters, they were fighting, had a physical fight and we were witnessing it and reacting to them. So of course, you know, kids are so unguarded, so in the moment and, um, we reacted. It felt real in some ways and the exhilaration of it not being real.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Somebody scares you and you actually fucking jump and then you fucking giggle because it's not real and there's something fun about that, right?

• 19:47Sam Fragoso?

  You were like eight years old then?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Uh huh, I was eight. And then Hill Street Blues, that was the first time that I was, um, I don't know that I would say that I'm controlling it. Cause I think I'm still like, even when I am instigating it, I feel like I'm still. Primarily a participant, but I was generating the force and it was affecting other people.

• 20:09Sam Fragoso?

  You could feel that.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I could see also on their faces. They were like, you know, shocked because maybe in some ways like those TV shows, you're just like running and gunning, right? You're going one thing and next and you come in as a guest star and you don't have a lot of time. And I probably, I don't know. I think that I took it very seriously.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  And I think they were surprised to see a little kid taking it so seriously, right?

• 20:35Sam Fragoso?

  This is a scene also, I think, where you're slapping your mother in the face.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  I don't think it's the mother. I think it's like a, maybe a social worker or a cop or something.

• 20:42Sam Fragoso?

  She's saying like, your father's unwell or something like that.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I don't even know what that episode was about.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Daniel, in a little while, you're going to the juvenile authority. I was just talking to the lady on the phone and she sounds very nice. And you know, they have other children over there.

• 20:58Speaker 03

  What did my mom do wrong?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  What?

• 21:01Speaker 03

  What did my mom do wrong?

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Your mother didn't do anything wrong, sweetheart.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  My daddy said she was evil.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Oh, Daniel, that's not true. He didn't mean that. She's not evil. It's just that, look, your daddy's very sick right now.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  My daddy's not sick. Don't say that about him. Don't say that about him. He's got a man in him. I'm all right. I'm all right. He's got a man in him. Let me go. Let me go.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Thank you. I'm all right. Let him go. Let him go.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  This also, by the way, now it's my adult memory of a child, like they might've been like, okay, when's lunch? You know, like, and I was like, whoa, that was fucking intense. They were rocked.

• 21:48Sam Fragoso?

  And you're, and you're retelling, it's like everyone goes to a standstill.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Everyone's like, oh my God, this kid, he's got it.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  And they just were like, it's a guest star on Hill Street Blues. Let's go. But in my mind, it was the origin story.

• 22:04Sam Fragoso?

  Isn't that kind of unbelievable, though? Like, it can mean so much and you can infuse it with so much meaning for you and your story. And to the other people, some of whom are maybe still alive and could be listening and go, well, that great. I mean,

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:18Sam Fragoso?

  we just kept, we kept it rolling.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, like, they're not listening, first of all.

• 22:23Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, really? I thought the ratings went up since you were here.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  The, no, I was wrong about that. I was wrong. It wasn't until I started telling this story, they turned off. They were on the show. They were the stars of Hill Street Blues. I started talking about it. They go, this is fucking boring. And they switched to the channel. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's part of it, right, is maybe nobody did have that reaction and that's what I needed to tell myself to keep going. I don't know.

• 22:46Sam Fragoso?

  Right. But you had a reaction.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  I did have a reaction.

• 22:49Sam Fragoso?

  And that matters.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  I certainly knew, ah, do we talk about these things without falling into cliche, but it just was. It was going to be my path. And that feeling and subsequent similar feelings helped me stick with it, even when circumstances change and it seemed like I may not have those opportunities and we moved out of LA and, you know, all these things throughout my life. There were a period of time where I didn't work and I still knew that something wants to do whatever the fuck it does. I don't know. It just all sounds so

• 23:23Sam Fragoso?

  I got you.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  fucking stupid, but you know what I'm saying?

• 23:25Sam Fragoso?

  I know.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  And who cares, you know?

• 23:27Sam Fragoso?

  Hey, can I add something? And you could do with it and you can tell me to fuck off. Can I say, I care?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Oh, please.

• 23:33Sam Fragoso?

  But

• 23:34Speaker 01

  No, no, no. That's adorable, but we don't know that for sure because right now we are sitting here in front of the microphone and part of this is like even subconsciously, you're like, I still have time to turn this into something, hopefully. So I just keep, I gotta keep, I was talking, I'm speaking for you. I'm your inner voice.

• 23:51Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  I gotta be encouraging here. He's walked out of interviews before. Maybe if I say this happened one time, it's still, you know, a thing. So this is good.

• 24:02Sam Fragoso?

  My inner hand, that's pretty good. Betty does it.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So anyways.

• 24:07Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  And that's it.

• 24:08Sam Fragoso?

  I'll save the rest of my sincerity for the end.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Great.

• 24:11Sam Fragoso?

  Whatever that scene was, whatever that moment was making it, it was a feeling you felt. And I want to go to another feeling I think you felt watching a film that I believe your brother showed you right after he made, I think, My Own Private Idaho with Gus Van Sant. He showed you the film called Raging Bull, and I thought we could watch that for a second. Is that all right?

• 24:32Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  Some people aren't that lucky.

• 24:38Speaker 04

  Like the one that Marlon Brando played in On the Waterfront, an up-and-comer who's now a down-and-out. You remember that scene in the back of the car with his brother Charlie, a small-time racket guy, and it went something like this?

• 24:54Speaker 04

  It wasn't him, Charlie, it was you.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  You remember that night at the Garden? You came down my dressing room and you said, "Kid, this ain't your night. We're going for the price on Wilson." Remember that? This ain't your night. My night. I could have taken Wilson apart that night. So what happens? He gets a title shot outdoors in a ballpark, and what do I get? A one-way ticket to Palookaville. I was never no good after that night, Charlie. It was like a peak you reach and then it's downhill.

• 25:28Speaker 04

  It was you, Charlie. You was my brother. You should have looked out for me a little bit. You should have looked out for me just a little bit. You should have taken care of me just a little bit instead of making me take them dice for the short end money. You don't understand.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  I could have had class. I could have been a contender. I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum, which is what I am. Let's face it. It was you, Charlie.

• 26:03Speaker 04

  It was you, Charlie. How you doing, Jake? Everything all right? Yeah. Ready? We got about five minutes. Okay. Need anything? No. You sure? I'm sure.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ. He's the best. He's the best. The best ever. The best ever.

• 26:26Sam Fragoso?

  What do you make watching that?

• 26:28Speaker 01

  I honestly don't know anything really about acting. I really don't. But De Niro, like, the Irishman, there's that scene where he has to talk to half his widow. It's just, it's fucking stunning. It's really a shocking scene. And I know age doesn't have anything to it, but just like, after you've been great so often, so much, how do you find something that feels like, that I've never seen you do that? And it feels so authentic to the character and to the moment. And I'm just like, just affects me viscerally.

• 27:02Sam Fragoso?

  How the hell is there a new move at seventy five?

• 27:05Speaker 01

  I don't know. He strikes me as somebody who's not trying to make moves. And I think the thing that's like beautiful about that scene, he might have like mapped everything out for her. Maybe he's like so good that when I watch that, it doesn't seem like somebody who is trying to tell the audience anything. And bad acting is just when you're showing, you're trying to get a point across, right? You're going like, do you understand me? And that's usually when it's bad, right? And I feel like De Niro just consistently, he never seems like he's desperate for you to understand him or understand like the motivation or anything like that.

• 27:39Sam Fragoso?

  Did you feel that when you worked with him?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  I wasn't paying attention to him. I just never even really thought about it.

• 27:47Sam Fragoso?

  You know, when I saw The Irishman, the two of them, Pesci and him and Scorsese introduced it. And something about seeing them for two seconds and them talking and then watching this movie and thinking about like friends making movies together for fifty years. I remember watching it and having the feeling you had, which was like, they're doing something new, which is incredible. I like broke down to see that they like still cared, put all of themselves in that. And it was just, it was so moving.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, imagine the business side of things have changed so much in those 50 years. So like to navigate that and still, you know, hold on to this thing, whatever kind of sparked that from the beginning, it's incredible. But they've done it, and I mean, then De Niro goes and is like, tell dude Killers, you know, De Niro, you're like, are you fucking kidding me? I can't figure it out because there was something like angular about his face in Killers that I've never seen before in any movie that he's done. And I was like, how is this happening? Is this just my perception of him because of how he's portraying this character?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  That years of seeing fucking from when I was a kid seeing Disney villains with fucking pointy faces that somehow merged in my mind as I'm watching this. But somehow he's never had like this like angular face, but suddenly he just seems like pointy and angular in a way that I'd never seen. And so I'm going, is there something with makeup? Is this the lens? Is the angle of the shooting for how is this being achieved? I've never seen him look that way. And here's this new character. And there's a scene where Leo finds out that maybe those kids were killed, she's in prison. And then, and obviously she's like super emotional. And then it goes to De Niro, De Niro like starts praying and he's like, it almost seems like he's possessed.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  It's really a shocking moment and I don't know how many other actors there are that in the beginning of their careers, they delivered something that felt shocking and new and inspired and they're still doing it.

• 30:00Sam Fragoso?

  Whatever Raging Bull did, it awoke something in you.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  To be fair, so did Three Stooges and so did Love and Death by Woody Allen. And, you know, there were several things, but I do think that there's probably also the weight of like my older brother who we were never aware of his stardom, like he never wore that. And we didn't have like entertainment magazines, but I still, I knew that, you know, maybe just like a feeling. In the air, maybe something that he felt and was emanating from him, or maybe he talked about that. I don't remember, but I know he was doing work that felt like it was beyond a, you know, as a kid just go like, oh, cool, you're in a movie or something, right? You don't, this felt like there was something deeper and more resonant that was happening with him.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  And so maybe him talking about De Niro and Reggie Bull made me think of it or appreciate it differently than some of the other things. I don't, I don't know.

• 30:58Sam Fragoso?

  I'm, it's infused with more meaning. Of course it is. I guess my question is, do you feel like whatever it was that was awoken in you from that film, that you got to use it for the first time and to die for? Like, was that kind of the start of you, not saying you're doing De Niro, but like you jumping and making the kind of work that?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I honestly, I, I think I would argue that parenthood, I think that was the birth of something for me because, you know, maybe it was, um, I didn't think that I would be working again because we moved from Los Angeles to Florida. And then I had this opportunity. It was, they were filming it in Orlando and Steve Martin and these, you know, famous people that I was of course aware of. And then Ron Howard I knew and I was probably very nervous. I remember that I didn't like the costume that I was being given, but I was too scared to say anything and I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And I was like, what the fuck do I know?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  And so I like, didn't say anything, but I clearly was unhappy and I couldn't hide it. And somehow, and I can't really remember whether I went to camera, whether he came to me, Ron, but it came up and I just expressed that I didn't feel like it was right. And he said, you don't have to do that. And, um, it was empowering and he empowered me. So that was like a very big moment for me in, in acting as well. But you wanted to ask about Tadai Four.

• 32:29Sam Fragoso?

  But that's good too.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Tadai Four certainly was, I went from being a, a young teenager to, you know, I, I think I turned 19 on Tadai Four.

• 32:38Sam Fragoso?

  That's, that's insane.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  And so it felt different and I didn't work between parents and Tadai Four didn't work.

• 32:45Sam Fragoso?

  That was like four or five years, right?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Maybe I was 14 or 15 on Parents, I don't know, but. Maybe there's watching Raging Boom, being aware of that and my brothers, maybe how he talked about it. But also just be like growing up a little bit, you know what I mean? Suddenly going from being a 14 year old to in that time, I lost my fucking virginity. Like all things change. I mean, I don't know. Sorry. Wow. Why are you blushing? It's okay. It's like happens. It's a fairly normal thing.

• 33:13Sam Fragoso?

  Is there something between us? I thought.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  It happens. Well.

• 33:16Sam Fragoso?

  We would not say on mic, but.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  No, we're going to, we're going to, and we're going back live because I think this is.

• 33:23Sam Fragoso?

  The numbers are gonna be.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  The Hill Street Blues people are tuning back in.

• 33:26Sam Fragoso?

  Back in. Have you heard something about sex?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  He lost his virginity? I gotta see this. They don't, they're not seeing it. I have to listen to this.

• 33:33Sam Fragoso?

  It's an audio medium. Yeah.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  So, and what a shame that is because to deprive people the opportunity to see all of this burgundy. Is this?

• 33:50Speaker 01

  I don't even know what burgundy, is this burgundy?

• 33:52Sam Fragoso?

  God, what I was gonna fucking ask you was, when you made this movie, I just, I loved To Die For. And like around the time you made the film, you had this quote, you said, uh, I just looked in my head and there were all these characters roaming around in there and I wanted to put them someplace. Acting was an outlet for me. For that movie in that time in your life, was there something comforting about returning to this outlet with someone in Gus? Cause he had worked with your brother and sister on two movies. Did working with him seem like a good space to do that? Did you feel like you needed to do that?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Right. I don't know that I felt like I needed to because of that. I would tell you, I'm surprised you haven't brought up this story. Just kidding. This is not a real story. I feel like everything I say sounds like it's probably made up.

• 34:36Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  It does, doesn't it? By the way, I've spoken only truths today. I was visiting the set of My Own Private Idaho and they were shooting a scene and Gus was like, oh, do you want to be an extra? It was like, there's this, these moments where you see these like headlights pass by these young men, right? Prostitutes. Like, um, should I find like a nice way to say prostitute? I was like, I think it's just, oh, thank you. Thank you. And when I'm saying this, I feel like I'm lying. I feel like I'm making this story up, but I, but I'm telling you it's true. I didn't say this out loud, but I was like, no, I'm not going to do this because I'm gonna do something else with Gus. And this is not it. And I mean, I don't know why. There's no reason that I should have thought that.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I don't think that it was like me knowing. It was like a hopeful part of yourself. That's like, don't ruin this possibility because you'll get up here and then he's gonna go like, oh, he looks stupid. And then cut you out of the movie and then not wanna.

• 35:34Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  It wasn't because I had this thing of like, one day. It was just like, don't ruin this possibility.

• 35:40Sam Fragoso?

  Something subconsciously that's telling you, maybe there's something here down the line. The thing that you definitely don't know about yet for a person that you definitely aren't yet.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  That's like literally the voice. So now I'm really tripping because this literally was your voice.

• 35:54Sam Fragoso?

  I'm so sorry that that's the inner voice.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  That's, that was the inner voice. So anyways, yeah, I'm sure that there was a period before, just like for like a year before where I started thinking seriously about acting again. And part of it was my brother was encouraging me and he was gonna do this film and he wanted me to play his younger brother in it. And so I started like really thinking about it again. And then I feel like I was going to New York because that's where you would go to audition.

• 36:25Sam Fragoso?

  You remember the audition?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  I do remember the audition. My concern was that I didn't want Gus to feel like obligated at all. You know, because somebody that you kind of know and they're up for an audition, you know what I mean? Like, it could be a little bit weird.

• 36:42Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I didn't want him to like.

• 36:44Sam Fragoso?

  Feel obligated to what?

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Well, just like, like he came out and he was like, oh, it was like really good. And, um, and I was like, oh, I just couldn't believe it. You know what I mean? I guess I, I just thought like, well, I don't know how much I can trust what he says, but I did also feel that it was all right.

• 37:00Sam Fragoso?

  The quote from him was, I saw him audition and when he left, I started crying.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Oh, oh.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Grow up, Gus. I mean, sorry, I couldn't handle that feeling. It was like too, it was too heavy.

• 37:17Sam Fragoso?

  What was the feeling?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  I was mostly became concerned about you. I'm like, yeah, thank you for sitting up straight now, because you were like slumping forward a little bit. I just didn't know if you were going to keep it together. I'm like, do I have to start fucking hosting this?

• 37:31Sam Fragoso?

  It's an ongoing question of the show every week.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I can, I can see why, because you seem like you're always on the precipice. But, uh, no, listen, I, that's, um, it's really sweet. But if he didn't know me and have that history, and only it's because my reading was so good. Had to do with like our history, I'm sure.

• 37:49Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  But no matter what, it just was right, my acting. It's like the way I looked, that's so much a part of like why people get jobs. It's really important. A lot of this is like, there's a train that's moving. I don't know what I'm gonna do with that analogy, so let's leave it alone.

• 38:06Sam Fragoso?

  Just keep it rolling.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  There's things, cute. There are things that are, it's moving. There's a target, you're starting shooting on this date. And it's moving. And so what happens is like, you're like, we gotta start reading people. We gotta get people for this part. We have Nicole Kidman, we have this, and this is when we're shooting and it's weather dependent. And so things are moving. Let's go to this, that's the guy, that's the guy. He's not available. Um, okay, what about this person, child, this person? This person is like, and wow, that guy's clearly an amazing actor. But he's like, way too handsome for this. Like, he doesn't seem like he's like this uneducated, white, trash kid that could be manipulated. Enter me.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  But part of it is just like, there is a certain amount of work and you, you look right. And you find some, some way that's, that's interesting. But all of those things have to come together. So it's.

• 39:00Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, situational. I mean, some of it is like, it's, it's more fickle than people want it to be. But also, you're clearly doing something.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Is your dad still alive?

• 39:10Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Cool. How old's he?

• 39:11Sam Fragoso?

  Fifty-eight.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  So young.

• 39:15Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, I just turned thirty last week.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Great. Are kids, are you thinking?

• 39:20Sam Fragoso?

  Why are you thinking about that?

• 39:22Speaker 01

  I was curious whether you have a kid, because you seem like, you know, because it's one of those things. It's probably really annoying to people that don't want to have kids, but when you have kids, you want everybody to have that experience. And you seem like you would be a good dad. I mean, obviously, you're making money off of this, I assume, I hope. Maybe that's why you're being attentive, but you seem like you have a curiosity and intelligence and a humor. And there's all things that a kid would enjoy. I could see you being a father. Something else I would like to point out that at some point in the future, maybe it's in six months, maybe in six years, we may see each other somewhere and you will continue, maybe you'll continue, maybe you won't. But if you do, you might say, hey, Joaquin Sam, and I'm gonna look at you with confusion, but I'm gonna pretend to know.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  And you're gonna say Sam from the podcast, and I'm gonna say Ferguson.

• 40:12Sam Fragoso?

  And I'll be like, Ferguson, he's Mexican.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Gonna say, dude, well, yes, oh, fuck, yeah, what's up, man? And I'm gonna give you a hug, and it'll be slightly awkward, because.

• 40:23Sam Fragoso?

  I like hugs.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Right, but it'll be because I don't actually know who I'm hugging or why.

• 40:27Sam Fragoso?

  Right, right, you think it's Ferguson.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  And I just want to tell you, that doesn't mean that I haven't enjoyed this time and your company. And I think you're a sincere, kindly fellow, so.

• 40:38Sam Fragoso?

  Thank you, man, that's nice.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Let's end this.

• 40:40Sam Fragoso?

  We're in the third act now, all right? Thank you.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  It's been a long time since I've walked out of an interview. They say there is no bad press, so.

• 40:49Sam Fragoso?

  Look, you do, you do what you want to do, but I think let's make this.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Killer ending, by the way, but whatever.

• 40:54Sam Fragoso?

  You out, or you saying this nice thing you just said to me?

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Not that one, definitely don't end it nice.

• 41:01Sam Fragoso?

  After the break, more from my conversation with Joaquin Phoenix.

• 41:10Sam Fragoso?

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• 41:55Sam Fragoso?

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• 42:25Sam Fragoso?

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• 43:10Sam Fragoso?

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• 43:57Sam Fragoso?

  Coming back. You know, you make this movie to die for. And then what happened after is like there's Gladiator and the yards and signs and walk the line. And we don't have time to get into that today. But at the end of it, there was some part of you, and it's the reason you arrive at I'm still here, is because some part of you, you said that Casey and I would constantly, after every movie, without fail, say to each other, I'm quitting. And that is what it sounds like led you to that documentary, mockumentary, whatever you want to call it. Is that felt, is that how it felt to you at the time?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  No. Um, part of the joke was how do you retire from something when you're still?

• 44:34Sam Fragoso?

  In your 30s?

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was just kind of like the privilege to think like, maybe I don't want to do this. Like in your 30s, right? That was kind of the joke of it. But I certainly have always felt and still feel there is a part of the business that makes my fucking skin crawl.

• 44:54Sam Fragoso?

  When you say that, what are you thinking about?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  It's like doing podcasts.

• 44:58Sam Fragoso?

  As he stares into my eyes.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  It's also like not a big fucking deal. So it's there's shit you do, you sell a movie, there's press and you go to fucking parties. And it's all like, who fucking cares? It's fine, not a problem. But it's also alarming and disgusting. And it's just my personality that I don't enjoy that. I don't enjoy the energy when there's like several people like in one space that all feel a pressure to like achieve something that night. We've got to make noise. We get, you know, it's just, there's a lot of pressure. There's jobs on the line. And so there's something that happens to people. And we also come to it. Like, there's always this moment where you're like, whatever a fucking normal human being is, like a person, you woke up and you ate and all that fucking

• 45:45Speaker 01

  shit that you do. And then like, at some point, you're trying to convince someone of something. You're trying to convince somebody, you're like, either like, you're happy to be there, or they should be happy to be there, or this thing is really great, or whatever the fuck it is. There's a lot of energy and everybody is selling something and we're selling things to each other. And the people that are like doing the interviews oftentimes, they're like, I don't want to fucking be here either. But like, I, it's my fucking job is I gotta fucking pretend. And we're all wearing makeup and we're looking at each other. And there's only just really uncomfortable where you know that you're lying to each other. And it's not a big lie. It's not the fucking end of the world, right? But it's just, there's

• 46:25Speaker 01

  something that just feels or makes me feel uncomfortable. And so maybe it's magnified by the fact that, not to be all fucking pretentious or too sincere, but in those moments where you are like on set with Gus Van Sant or Paul Thomas Anderson or Ramsey or there's something creative that's happening. Again, and it's not about it being for other people or being big or being news, whatever. Those moments do feel special and important to the people involved. But you are part of a dance. You are riding this wave with somebody else. And there are several people that are all part of this moment that you're capturing and you're

• 47:08Speaker 01

  all like working together and inspiring each other. And that's fucking cool. And anybody that's been in a band where you've locked in, anybody knows that feeling. Whatever kind of collaborative effort you're doing, if it's building a fucking wall, it doesn't matter, right? You're creating something together where there wasn't something before, there's now. And that is incredible. And then the promotion of that thing feels very far removed. But there can also be moments of creativity in that as well, right? And but I

• 47:40Speaker 01

  More often than not, I find it uncomfortable. People crowded together and photographers and they don't want to be there and it's just.

• 47:46Sam Fragoso?

  But the pure thing you're talking about, the thing that's on set in a moment, it's the thing that you felt for instant on Hill Street Blues.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Right, that no one else did.

• 47:58Sam Fragoso?

  Who are all still listening, or not. It is something, and I guess what I want to ask you is when you made that film, I'm Still Here, you said it was unbelievably liberating. It was the best thing I've ever done in terms of helping me grow as an actor and having a deeper appreciation for acting. I just, like, I wanted to know in the decade that followed that, whether it was with her or the master or the Lynn Ramsey film, you were never really here. When you say deeper appreciation for acting, what does that mean exactly?

• 48:27Speaker 01

  For trying to create a scenario, I think it taught me to be comfortable to move farther away from anything that's controlled or any kind of guaranteed outcome. And so part of it is, you know, do these scenes and I'm still here. And when the other person I was working with, when they knew what we were doing, I was a friend and we were doing a scene together. I would be like, you know, winking like the entire time. I was like, we're doing this joke together. And when I was doing a scene with Edward James Olmos, we didn't communicate. That made me unsure of how far I could push things. And is there a chance that I really offend him?

• 49:12Speaker 01

  And so I think that it taught me that there was like, that the very, in my opinion, that the very best moments were the ones where I don't get credit for that moment. That you get credit for setting up the world and making yourself available. But I think that maybe when I was younger, I thought like the idea was like, you construct a character, you build a character. You say, here are the walls of their life. These are things that he does and he doesn't do. I think it's partially like there's a slow process of that being dismantled. But I'm Still Here really brought it sharply into focus of like, I do all of this work and then I throw myself into a situation

• 49:56Speaker 01

  and I don't know what I'm gonna do. And even if I think like, this is what I want to do, I'm not, even as I'm doing it, I don't feel like. Okay, this is what I'm doing. And I think that creates an energy.

• 50:11Sam Fragoso?

  I heard you told Ari, I asked her, when I'm reading a script, I'll sometimes go, I figured it out. This is great. I'm gonna be good. And without fail, on the first like day or two.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 50:22Sam Fragoso?

  You go like, oh, my god.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Every time.

• 50:25Sam Fragoso?

  How did I, how did I fucking think this was gonna work?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Every single, no, it's only how I think this word, but like, it's a really painful lesson, especially like, as you become well, more well known. And you're like, now I'm like the older actor on set. And usually, most people are like, everyone's just doing their job. They don't care, right? But you're all, every actor is a little self obsessed and thinking like, these other actors are probably gonna be like, what is he gonna do?

• 50:54Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. You are on the poster.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  You're on the poster. But um, I have to learn every single time that like, almost certainly those moments where you think, I fucking have it. Those are the ones that when I get on set, I don't have it.

• 51:11Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you said one time, immediately humbled and lost. And out of that comes something, out of that desperation and brutal humiliation. Is that still?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 51:21Sam Fragoso?

  That's where it is. That's what you have to work through.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Every time. It's funny, I guess, I just was working with Ari and um, I'm just sitting, just like a couple of days before shooting. And I was like, I don't wanna look stupid. I don't want everyone to know that I'm no good. I don't. And I like admitted it. I was like, yeah, I wanna be good. I wanna be really good. And.

• 51:43Sam Fragoso?

  You know, the humiliation thing this time.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Let's not, let's not fucking do it.

• 51:47Sam Fragoso?

  I'm tired.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  I'm tired. And we did like this pre shoot day, you know, it's a thing that could be used or not, but it still was a defining moment for the character. And to be honest, again, there are some things that I was like, and I was like, that is pretty good. Oh, that's fun. That, that, that could be funny. All of that stuff was lost, wiped away. So I was like, okay, fine. We did it. Day one, done. All right. Day two, nothing day. Day three, a bit of a moment. Here we go. Fucking unbelievably painful, the kind of thing where you really do sense the crew is like, they feel for you. Like it's one of those things where like, you know, when you see somebody dying, you're just like, I mean, like failing dying and you kind of like, they wanna kind of do like a

• 52:32Speaker 01

  pot like, stick with it. It was like one of those things and like, the actors like fucking the director is like, do you think you would do that?

• 52:39Sam Fragoso?

  He's not gonna do it the whole time, right?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  It's so crushing. And we had to just eat it. I had to just apologize and go to lunch, knowing that we had a very limited amount of time and a tight schedule. And I just completely burnt up the morning doing nothing. And then Ari and I just stayed on set. Well, everyone went to lunch and just talked it through. And something emerged that at least allowed you to go forward. I don't know if it's any good, but it just was not, didn't make you wanna end everything.

• 53:08Sam Fragoso?

  Paul Thomas Anderson said, uh, he will have four great days where he can do no wrong. And then two of the most horrendous days of acting I've ever seen.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 53:19Sam Fragoso?

  I think he was talking about the master in that, in that case.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, the, you know, the difference between like a good performance or an all right performance, like a great performance is a director. And in my like estimation, I haven't done anything great yet, but I think there's hope. And I'm not saying that to be, um, I really truly mean that. I still feel.

• 53:41Sam Fragoso?

  You really feel like you've done, like we could take it all into a bin and just.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Well, no, let's not be dramatic. I mean, I'm not saying through it all away. Or, I mean, yeah, that is the feeling that I have, but I'm trying to be like mature about it.

• 53:53Sam Fragoso?

  Sorry, inner voice. That was mine. Sorry.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've done, done therapy to be about like, but I think in the best way because there's not a finish line. We invent these things, like these marks that are supposed to say that we've achieved something in whatever our creative endeavor is. And it's just not the case, right? You, you do those things and you realize like, there's something that's more about my soul that is trying to express something or be a part of some expression. And I imagine that just like everything worthwhile in life, it's something that you constantly will have to work at and nurture and cultivate.

• 54:28Sam Fragoso?

  Right. And that part of you, the thing that signifies you've done a good job, I think to many people would be like an award. And obviously you won that best actor before the world. Shut down, or has the world shut down?

• 54:42Speaker 01

  That's the reason why. And people are like, well, this is it.

• 54:45Sam Fragoso?

  We're giving it to this?

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, this is, clearly, we've got to reboot everything.

• 54:52Sam Fragoso?

  This is the performance that's number one.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Talking about like going off the tracks.

• 54:56Sam Fragoso?

  And that's clearly what I meant, as I was setting this up.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  No, I, I know, trust me, I, I know.

• 55:01Sam Fragoso?

  But can I ask you, like, when you gave that speech, it's an emotional speech, and there was, I was moved by it. And the last thing you said was.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  I just, I wanna, um, when you, when, when he was, when he was, when he was 17, my brother wrote this lyric. He said, run to the rescue with love and peace will follow. Thank you.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  I basically had like eight different things roaming around in my head, and I was just pacing around, and I was saying shit out loud, like, what will come out?

• 55:39Sam Fragoso?

  When you're preparing for the, when you're preparing for the speech?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  It's the same way as, yeah, coming here, like, I don't know what will come out, but I didn't have a fixed idea. I could talk about this, I don't know what's gonna happen.

• 55:50Sam Fragoso?

  Because it seemed pretty structured.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  It was not. There were two things that I knew, that what I wanted to say was something about, because I had seen this video close to that time where a calf was taken from the mother and taken into this trailer and driven, and the mother is like calling out to the calf, and like running through the field and running after the trailer, and it's like heart wrenching. And I wanted to say like, that being is going to endure that pain so you can have milk in your fucking coffee. That I knew that I wanted to say. And then I was talking with my mom and my wife, and we were just kind of like talking shit philosophizing, kind of whatever, just like, what's going on in the world?

• 56:34Speaker 01

  And I believe that my mom, something I said sparked that memory, and she goes, so you remember, you know, River wrote, that was like his thing, that he used to sign, I think maybe he signed autographs, or maybe it was, I can't remember how, where it came from, or if it was a lyric. And Rooney was like, that's what you should fucking, you should say. So those were really two things, but how I got into those things, I, I didn't really know. But I, there was a captive audience.

• 57:02Sam Fragoso?

  There was a captain audience. I guess my question for you as we go.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  This is the end? You're ending with this?

• 57:08Sam Fragoso?

  I have a two-part thing here, but we could do whatever the hell you want.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  This is so pro two-part thing.

• 57:15Sam Fragoso?

  I give it options, man. Like you, I come with a lot of options. I've failed a lot.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 57:21Sam Fragoso?

  But I guess what I was trying to get at is, like, you heard your mom say it. You heard your wife be like, oh, that's it. And I'm just thinking, in the four years since you said that, you had a couple of kids. We started the show talking about your kid and gratitude, and I was just wondering if that line, run to the rescue with love and peace will follow. And this is sincere. Do you feel like you're living that?

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Uh, fuck you. Fuck you. Do I feel like I live that? Oftentimes, I absolutely fall short of that. There are many times where I am not running to the rescue with love. And you need no more evidence than this here right now. Oftentimes, I run away from love and warmth and sincerity in favor of a crass joke. So I don't know, but I'm very fortunate that, dare I say, I'm very grateful

• 58:22Speaker 01

  that I have so many people in my life that I think do live by that philosophy, starting with my mom, who truly embodies that philosophy. And my wife, Rooney, and my kids, who don't even understand it, it's a philosophy. It just is, right? It just is part of them. And so I do witness it constantly. It is alive and permeates so much of my life. But I wouldn't say that I am on the steed, leading, leading the charge. But look, I tell you, man, there's still hope for me.

• 59:01Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do a great performance one day. I am.

• 59:04Sam Fragoso?

  That was my last question. You feel like everything you've done, The Master, her, going back to Die for, skipping ahead to any of the James Gray films, like Two Lovers, which is such a good movie, and looking at those, you can't say you've done a great job. Do you believe you will?

• 59:22Speaker 01

  You know what? Maybe not. I mean, in some ways, I hope I don't because then that will be the end of this. And I don't want it to end, right? And I think that that will mean like that I've learned everything I could learn. I don't know that that's possible. Maybe it is. There might be. I mean, maybe people are like, they write this last song like, that was good. Like, I did it. I fully expressed everything I was meant to do, and I'm done. Maybe. But part of me doesn't believe that. And part of me feels like the basic foundation, like any spiritual practice is that you are constantly working at it, right? There is no time where

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  you like, you don't achieve enlightenment, maybe it's brief moments, but I do think there's still something in me that's percolating. It'll, maybe it finds a new, a new way of expressing it, or maybe it is done. I don't know.

• 1:00:17Sam Fragoso?

  As you're saying that, I was thinking about the, that scene in Raging Bull that we were watching, and then how both of us started talking about The Irishman and thinking like, 80 new moves? And I will say, I will wish that for you.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Thank you. I wish it for everybody. I do. Maybe I'm wrong about everything I said. Maybe I should shut the fuck up. Maybe the thing to do is to shut the fuck up and just appreciate what you have had and the experience that you've had. And maybe it's not for you to judge and to know what is the thing or not the thing. You know, of course, the ego part of me wants to go like, no, I want to achieve greatness. But if I'm really honest, I'd go like, well, the thing that would be best is if I just like, shut the fuck up because I don't actually know what that is. And I just appreciated whatever happened because right now, life is good. And I hope everyone can feel that way about their lives.

• 1:01:19Sam Fragoso?

  Me too. And speaking of gratitude, which is where we started, I really appreciate you coming in and doing this. I know. I know you're not gonna be able to hear this, but I really do care about so much that you've put into this world. It has meant a lot to me, and it means a lot that you've showed up for this show and talked for as long as you have, and I appreciate you for that.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Thank you. I can't end on a good note. I just wanted to tell you,

• 1:01:43Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go home and just feel awful. I'm gonna, I'm gonna replay this in my mind. I am so insecure. I'm gonna hate myself. The, the amount of verbiage, it's, it just

• 1:01:53Sam Fragoso?

  Thickening.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  It's, it is. It's because we're in this fucking cocoon with this goddamn burgundy, and it just fucking does this number on you. Like, I don't like myself. I'm gonna go out into the fucking light and the real sun, the real world, and the voices are just gonna be screaming at me, and I'm not gonna have your soothing voice in my head, as it'd be back to my inner voice. My inner voice is gonna be mean. So I'm leaving here, and I wanna say thank you, but now I'm feeling like, fuck you. So that's how I'm ending this. Okay? You can end with whatever sincere gesture you want.

• 1:02:26Sam Fragoso?

  That is a perfect example of not running to the rescue of love. You, you do have my number.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  But I will, I'm going to immediately delete it, and don't follow me out. Thank you, Sam, so much. Honestly, really. I'm sure that was like a lot to endure. Bye-bye.

• 1:02:47Sam Fragoso?

  That was Joaquin Phoenix. You know, you've seen his movies. You heard the show. Always, forever. One of one.

• 1:03:59Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode with Joaquin Phoenix, please share it on social media. Tag us at Talk Easy Pod. You can also leave us a review on Apple. Share the program with friends online. What else can you do? Five stars on Spotify. Whatever you do, it really does help us continue making the program each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this week to Spike Jones, Warner Brothers, Shelter PR, and of course, our guest, Joaquin Phoenix. You can see his latest performance in Eddington, directed by Ari Aster, in theaters across the country. For more episodes like this one, well, there's really no other episode

• 1:04:42Sam Fragoso?

  like this one, but I'd recommend our talks with Ari Aster, Michelle Williams, Pedro Pascal, and Eben Moss Backrack. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. You can also subscribe to Lemonada Premium for exclusive bonus content, not to mention ad-free listening. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Pods or head to lemonadapremium.com. If you want to purchase one of our mugs, they come in cream or navy, or our vinyl record with New York writer Fran Leibowitz, visit our website at talkeasypod.com/shop. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline

• 1:05:24Sam Fragoso?

  Reebok. Our executive producer is Janik Sabravu. Today's talk was edited by Adam Jamal and mixed by Andrew Vastola. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Chris Shanoi. Research assistance today comes from Anna Faray-Muntinho. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media, and I'm Sam Fragoso. I'll see you back here on Sunday with actor Patricia Clarkson. Until then, stay safe and so long.

• 1:06:05Speaker 05

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

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  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:06:17Speaker 05

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:06:19Speaker 06

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:06:22Speaker 05

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:06:28Speaker 05

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.

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