Penetration Testing Expert | Deviant Ollam | Ep. 363

0Deviant Ollam is a physical penetration testing specialist, a renowned expert in lock picking, and an author. He is a prominent figure in the security community, educating people on vulnerabilities in physical security through presentations, training, and books. https://deviating.net https://youtube.com/deviantollam https://defcon.social/@deviantollam https://instagram.com/deviantollam https://bsky.app/profile/deviantollam.bsky.social https://reddit.com/user/DeviantOllam https://github.com/deviantollam Subscribe to our new newsletter!!!! https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join Today's Sponsors: GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Superpower⬇️ https://superpower.com/ use code "TEAM" FOR $50 OFF For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 - Start 00:45 - Deviant's Background in Pentesting 05:18 - Deviant's "Origin Story" 10:39 - From Hobbyist to Professional Pentester 17:04 - The First Big "Score" 30:22 - History and Evolution of Safes 36:46 - The Art of Safe Cracking 51:08 - Biometric and Electronic Lock Security 53:17 - Intelligence Services and Covert Entry 1:22:42 - Impact of Electronic Surveillance on Pentesting 1:25:41 - Career Advice for the Field Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 0:43Speaker 02

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• 1:28Speaker 02

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  Special operations. Coburn Ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 1:52Jack Murphy?

  Hey folks, I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park. You will see him over there or on the wide shot. He looks a little lonely today because things are different. Dimitri had some car problems, so I am back in the production chair after like two, three years since I've done this last. So apologies if there's any technical issues. Our guest tonight is Deviant Oom.

• 2:18Jack Murphy?

  Deviant has a background in pen testing, red teaming, and physical security. A few years ago, Dave and I took a class of his at DEF CON, where he taught key impressioning. He had a whole class about cracking safes. And he also has a lot of information, interesting details, about the history of intelligence services cracking into safes and how they went about that. So we're going to talk about all this stuff tonight. Mr. Deviant, thank you for joining us.

• 2:50Speaker 05

  Thanks so much for having me. This is exciting. Glad to be here.

• 2:52Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I've been a fan of yours for a long time. For viewers who might not know, because this is exciting stuff. Like, this is movie stuff. And for people who might not know what pen testing is, or physical pen testing, like, you're the analog Barbie in a digital world, right? But you're the guy on the ground. Can you tell us what pen testing and red teaming is, and particularly in your world?

• 3:19Speaker 05

  Sure thing. So perhaps the boardroom technical language that we sanitize things with, we say it's adversarial emulation. Or if you want to sound cool, just at a cocktail party with your friends, my wife just says I'm professionally dangerous. The movie-style reference that you make, if some of the folk in the audience are old enough to remember a film in the early 90s, Robert Redford, Dan Aykroyd, David Strathairn and others, Sidney Poitier, The Lake River Phoenix, it was called Sneakers. That's one of the best illustrations. In fact, I know the technical advice on that film. Who's in the trades, right? That is what we do. We break into places so that people can find out how secure their place is.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  We pick the locks, we bypass the alarms, we mess with all the access control systems. In case sometimes I'm cracking safes. And the customer gets to find out, could a bad guy with a given sort of threat profile... Get in, get out, possibly do so unnoticed. And then we can help advise them or their colleagues and their contacts of what mitigation steps they might want to take to change, to change how robust their security is.

• 4:26Speaker 06

  Now, is it always Mission Impossible coming down from the skylight? Or do sometimes, you know, and I'm asking because I know, because I've seen your videos. And if you guys have not checked out any of his videos on YouTube, you owe it to yourself. They're all fascinating. But sometimes is it as easy as picking up a clipboard?

• 4:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it is, you like to fantasize and say that we're all wearing the, you know, the black and you have the tactical rope gear in your climate. But yeah, it's, sometimes it's one step above knock, knock, knock, password inspector. You know, sometimes you just show up. When you think about though, I actually think that's not a bad thing. I think it's representative of how trusting and safe much of our world is. A lot of people don't have a high that they live under. A lot of people, if he shows up and they have you stay the full clipboard, they've got some paperwork for the local municipality. And they say, hey, uh, yeah, we're doing meter readings today. Who's your facilities director? Oh, he's out at lunch?

• 5:32Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, he usually just gives me a key. A lot of people working at a front desk, if nothing gets their tackle up, yeah, well, that's, that makes sense to me. This person doesn't seem or look like they're behaving like a threat. Um, yeah, the water meter back there in the utility closet, he need to show you the way. That's how a lot of things just get done in our world. And if you've ever, for example, had a hotel and maybe the room wasn't under your name, you're staying with a colleague or a spouse. And you say, oh, I left something in the room. Most hotels shouldn't give you a key without verifying where your name's not on the room. But there's plenty of places out there where if you're not behaving squirrely and you can say, yeah, you know, who was at the desk earlier? It was a, it was a blonde girl, right? It was Judy? Yeah, she was checking us. Well, Judy, you were here.

• 6:16Speaker 05

  You don't look like you're a meth head about to steal the television. Yeah. What room did you need again? Boom. Our world has a lot of places where we reduce friction by doing a quick mental calculus and saying, yeah, that this person, uh, you know, kind of that Gavin DeBecker gift of fear. You're not, you're, the hairs on your neck aren't rising. So much of what we do is, as you described, just look like we belong there.

• 8:31Speaker 05

  You know, in my twenties, I was always trying to, well, which, which doors go to the back of house? Which go to the maintenance spaces? I went, oh, there's pipes, there's a generator, this is, I'm not supposed to be here. And then you get a little bit older and you're staying in hotels or visiting big buildings. You say, I wonder if I can get on the roof. I wonder if I can get into, you know, something that's more critical infrastructure. And you start to realize that a lot of the systems that control our world, especially access control systems, rely on things like doors that swing shut and click properly. And they often don't. Or you rely on things like, well, no one would want to go back there because, you know, why would you ever do? There's no sign on the door saying it's valuable. Who would ever check that door? And you start being the person who checks all the doors.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  And then eventually you say, wow, I can get in a lot of places that our world thinks you can't get into. I wonder if I could ever do anything with this. And I'm fortunate enough that I actually got to. It's, it's not an easy career to find yourself in. It's what a lot of people turn to us for kind of official training, which nowadays, training is two things. A lot of people like to say, training and certifications. You know, what's the value in that? And it's, it's twofold. One is learning skills, but also just kind of getting that official blessing that says, well, I'm not just some chump. I'm not just somebody who's a criminal. I've actually tried to better myself. I've, I've done some of this professionally.

• 9:53Speaker 05

  If you want to become a bouncer, maybe you're a guy who's just good at fist fighting. But maybe if you actually went to a training course, they say, oh, all right. The training isn't just me, anybody could hit somebody. You actually can keep your head about you. You can do things with best practices. You understand the professional way to go about what otherwise would be a very blunt sort of trade. And that's why, yeah, people come to us all the time at Red Team Alliance because they say, I want to do what you do, but I want to do it properly. And a lot of people have the, the knack, or at least the desire to get in places they shouldn't be. But can you do it in a way that is respectful and responsible and adds a value to the clients who are paying you to do it? That's, that's what differentiates a street criminal.

• 10:36Speaker 06

  You know, and it's interesting too, because, you know, like I said, you are analog in a digital world in the sense of you're a hacker, you know, you're, you know, a feature at DevCon and at all the, you know, different hacking conventions. And your path was, it seems to me, it was probably very parallel to a lot of how the OG hackers grew up, where they were doing things that, you know, weren't probably just because there weren't, you know, you didn't have training facilities, you didn't have Hack the Box, you didn't have these things. People just learned it by doing it. And, and so you were, you were on that exact same path, only where they were breaking into systems,

• 11:20Speaker 06

  you were breaking into buildings.

• 11:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's absolutely the case. And I'm very, as I say, I'm very concerned that we don't give a lot of younger minds these days the space and the room to run. I like that you called out things like Hack the Box and so forth. Those, those resources and those assets are really important now because we don't live in a world that is as forgiving as it once was.

• 11:45Speaker 06

  Right.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  And these minds need a place to grow and experience these challenges and try out their skills in real world sort of, sort of play environments. Otherwise, if all you're doing is prepackaged, you know, kind of by the book lessons, are you really learning how things work out there on a job?

• 12:04Speaker 06

  Right. So how, because I have to know, how did you make that transition? Because where with the digital side and with hackers, we see, you know, the development of software companies and software and, you know, and then, you know, countermeasures, you know, to hackers, stuff like that. But for you, how did you plant a flag and say, hey, I can break into a building? Anybody want that?

• 12:37Speaker 05

  All the credit there, I think I would heap on a longtime friend of mine, who's in town, because we're in town for Black Hat and DEF CON, of course. So my buddy Jeff, the Dark Tangent, who started DEF CON and with it, Black Hat, some years after DEF CON was around. The Black Hat Conference, which I don't know if all your listeners know the full origins. I'll give you the real quick story. It's a brilliant hack of its own type. The origins of Black Hat, the conference and trade show. DEF CON, which originally started as just kind of a going away party for Jeff's bulletin board that he was running. People said, "Oh, man, this is so cool. I came out to Vegas and you had this big party and there were these talks. Are you gonna do this again? You gotta do this next year. This was great." And he said, "I wasn't planning on anything like that.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  I just kind of threw something together for my friends. If you want, we'll do it." So then DEF CON happened next year, and DEF CON happened the year after that. And DEF CON, the conference, kept growing. And people were coming up to Jeff in the hacker world saying, "Man, oh, you're a Dark Tangent. You run that DEF CON thing. That's so cool, man. I wish I could go to that." And he would say, "Then do it. It's a $50 conference. Why don't you just come?" He said, "No, my company would never send me to that." "Why?" He's like, "Well, you know, like you said, it's a $50 conference. It's not professional. It's not, you know, my boss would laugh me out of the room." And Jeff looked at these people and he said, "You're telling me that I'm running an event that is accessible, has great content, has great speakers, has all the information you need,

• 14:05Speaker 05

  and you can't come because it's too cheap?" And they said, "Basically, yeah." So the very first year that Black Hat started, and Jeff would tell the story with a little more detail, but effectively, he reached out to his most popular speakers, the ones who were already coming to DEF CON. And he said, "Hey, do me a favor. I want you to come into town almost a week early, and I want to put you up at the Caesar's Palace, and I want you to give the same talks you're gonna give at DEF CON, give them a few days early to like feds and suit-wearing people and stuff. And we're gonna charge $1,200 at the door. We're gonna call it Black Hat." And everyone thought that was nuts. And all those companies, that people, their bosses, wouldn't let them come to DEF CON. They said, "Now, this thing, the Black Hat thing, you bring me this pamphlet.

• 14:50Speaker 05

  This is what you should be going to. Thanks. This is serious business." And, you know, it was the same thing for the first few years. And then, of course, Black Hat developed professional trainings, multi-day trainings.

• 15:03Speaker 05

  And I've been going to DEF CON and Black Hat for ages now. I've been going since DEF CON 8. And good lord, it's, what is it, DEF CON 33? 34? Oh my good lord. But when the trainings were starting, you know, people just, hey, you're good at this thing. You should run a training. It wasn't these full-on massive training orgs. And Jeff approached me, tangent said, hey, man, you've been given lockpicking talks at DEF CON. People love that lockpick stuff you do. You know, you should run a training at Black Hat. And I was like, get the hell out of here. No one's gonna come learn lockpicking from me for two days. That's insane. I just do it for free at DEF CON because I love it. And he said, no, you should do it, man. We're gonna pack that room. And that was my first professional training that I gave. This is long before Red Team Alliance

• 15:47Speaker 05

  or anything like that existed. It was just me and my buddy Bobic in a room. And sure enough, we were teaching people the basics. And next year, they said, oh, you should do electronics. You should talk about alarms. You should talk about that. We just kept adding content. And as often happens at Black Hat, many times, people will take a whole training and they'll say, this is great stuff. I learned a lot. Can I hire you to do this? And you look at them at the end of two days and you say, you just paid to learn how to do it, though. And they say, yeah, but my company wouldn't believe me. I'm internal. If I report all these findings, that we really need an external voice to validate all these findings. Can we just hire you guys? I was like, money can be exchanged for goods and services. I don't mind having more money. Sure.

• 16:32Speaker 05

  So that's where some of our earliest clients came from. They were the people we were training at Black Hat, who were then immediately a month later hiring us to come break into their buildings. And then word of mouth spread. We've never done any real marketing of any kind. It's just people, oh, those are the guys who do that stuff. Yeah, I've heard of them. You should take their training. You should hire them to do that thing. And that's how I got my career.

• 16:52Speaker 06

  Well, you know, now, I guess, when, you know, we think of red teaming and, you know, getting access to internal, you know, systems or whatnot, like the, the physical red teaming and the physical pen testing, you know, we think of that. But how did you, you know, before the internet, before all this, you know, was it 2600? How did you find yourself in the, you know, with this set of skills in the hacker community?

• 17:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, so you mentioned briefly, you heard a little passing reference to 2600, the magazine, the 2600 meetups. I was part of the 2600 crew back east in Philly where I was living. There was a nonprofit, well, now is a nonprofit. At the time, it was just kind of a ragtag group of enthusiasts. There's this group called TOOL, the Open Organization of Lock Pickers. That is a group that still exists to this day. I was on their board of directors as a nonprofit board member for a very long time. But it was people just kind of had a passing interest, or you would be at a, even a professional tech event, you might see somebody picking locks just as a hobby, much in the way that you'll see people nowadays cross-stitching or doing crochet if they're on a long plane flight, or sitting in a long

• 18:05Speaker 05

  lecture in an academic setting. You'd see locks being picked in the hacker world. And for some people, it never went anywhere beyond being a hobby, and for some of us, became a real obsession. But yeah, the hobbyist community and the hacker mindset of, these are some cool skills, I just want to use them for fun. Fun can become profitable.

• 18:27Speaker 06

  I would like to thank a sponsor tonight, somebody I'm, actually, I've never heard of, but I'm super excited about right now. You see, I have to put on my reading glasses because I'm getting old. And with that age and the abuse that Jack and I have been through through the years, the arthritis, the sleep apnea, the insomnia. Copious amounts of scotch. Yes, copious amounts of scotch. You know, we had Chris Frey on just a short while ago, and he talked about the operator syndrome, right? And, you know, we have TBIs and blast exposure and post-traumatic stress and all these things going on for us. And not just us, but everybody, you're all, you know, subjected to all this stuff. So our new sponsor

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• 22:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

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• 22:18Jack Murphy?

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  Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, and look, maybe you're old and broken like I am, or young and spry like Jack, but it's like, it's always a good time to start. You know, either find out what's going on, or to, you know, stay young and healthy for the next 40 years. So anyway, check them out, superpower.com, use TEAM at the checkout. Thanks.

• 22:53Speaker 07

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• 23:07Speaker 08

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• 23:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's fantastic. What was the first, like, big score for you where you're like, wow, I can actually do this for a living?

• 24:01Speaker 05

  I'll answer it in two ways. There was the first time that I sort of unofficially fell into this work, and then the first really good client, and I'll sanitize both of them, obviously. One was a law firm, and this was just a local, you know, to where I was living, near Philadelphia. They were just outside the city, and they essentially had a sysadmin, their guy who was on site, the guy who did all the computers and the servers and the accounts. He just kind of rage quit one day, just real table flip, slammed the door, and people were like, "I don't know if he's coming back." And I was known as a guy who could get into locked places, just word of mouth. People knew me as that person from the hacker community. And somebody knew somebody who knew somebody who

• 24:46Speaker 05

  called me, and they said, "Hey, we have a situation here at this law office. We kind of think we should be doing something. We have this guy, Lee, we don't know if he has the passwords. We need to mitigate this situation." And I was consulting at the time, which means I was between jobs, right? And I said, "Oh, I can make some room in my schedule," and I made my way over there. And I didn't know if they wanted me essentially to do any tech work, or I didn't know exactly what they wanted, because I thought, they said, "Oh, the door's locked, you gotta break..." They didn't expect me to break in. They expected me to take over the servers, which, you know, I did a lot of network security work, too. So I was there with my copy of Nordahl's NTboot and other

• 25:27Speaker 05

  things, but as I showed up, they said, "All right, well, sit tight. We got a locksmith on the way to get you in. As soon as you get into that office, you can do your thing that we hired you to do." And I said, "Okay," and I sat there and just, I don't know what I was doing in the lobby. It was pre-social media. I just must have read a magazine. So I was bored, and I said, "You know, I'm sorry, I'm on the clock. I've been here a while now. Can you show me that, what are we talking about for the server room here?" And they took me down a hall, and I went, "Oh, it's just an office door? I'm pretty sure I can bypass that." And sure enough, you know, kachunk, you slip, I, you know, took the cover off some TPS report equivalent, slipped the cover into the door frame, door pops open. I was like, all right, well, cancel the locksmith. And then I did my thing with all the servers and I'm rebooting.

• 26:09Speaker 05

  And I said, okay, well, it looks like, yeah, you don't have any telnet or SSH running your net or your mail server, your web must be hosted elsewhere. Yeah, this doesn't look too squirrely. Have a proper incident management team come through, but you're, you're looking pretty good. I can change your root passwords. What do you want that new password to be? I'm writing it down. They go, yeah, new, new root password. Yeah. What'd you do to that door? I was like, oh, yeah, your, your door latches aren't activated correctly because you have access control latch. It's, you know, your locksmith could explain that to you. And he said, no, you explain it to me. Show us and show us in this guy's office. And he's calling partners over. So that was the first time that someone said, oh, you, you do more than just the ones and zeros. You do that break in thing. And that I was known just in the local Philly area as a guy who could do that.

• 26:52Speaker 05

  And as far as nationwide, one of our first, as I mentioned, you know, students that we had was a crew of students from a, we'll just call them a major tech company. They make internet appliances and internet services that loads of people have interacted with and they've been, they're in your data centers. They, they're a well-known brand. And they were the ones that shocked. They took us out to dinner. I'd never been to a fancy Vegas restaurant. I'm some young kid. And I was shocked when they said, we gotta get your info because we want to hire you. And, you know, a few weeks after Black Hat, they were hiring us to break into multiple offices around the country. And you've done this before, right? I've broken into a car dealership and a law office in Philadelphia and some other small time stuff, never, never to think big like this. Every job you think you're like, oh, this is gonna be the job. This is gonna be a tough one.

• 27:37Speaker 05

  And then you realize, no, there's always a way in. There's always a way you can, you can break in. You can find a way. And each, and then you just get win after win after win. And then, and you're the guy, we gotta hire those guys. Hire, hire that team again. Nowadays, whenever somebody bids a job, they tend to reach out. So, and RTA is our training company, but the core group is, is who, you know, our break in consulting firm. And it's funny, we always get told in these calls, they say, well, yeah, we're talking to you because everyone we talked to either said, hire the core group, or those guys trained us. Like, they're, they're, they're the ones who do it, or they're the ones who train the people who do it. Just, just hire them. So the word of mouth just keeps spreading. That's fantastic.

• 28:15Jack Murphy?

  Uh, I, I would love to ask, I have to ask, has there ever been a situation where the bad guys wanted to hire you and like, you're kind of like, this is sketch, or I need to take a step back from this one?

• 28:27Speaker 05

  You know, for the longest time, the answer was no. And I'll say there have been two occasions when, yeah, you got two stories out of me on this one. Two occasions where things were a little weird. One was a job that we wound up not taking. It was going to be in Taiwan. It was going to be for a very famous property in Taipei. It's very big, famous pictures of it on the internet where if you're familiar with a tuned mass damper is inside of big buildings. Theirs is gorgeous. You can almost walk up and touch it. It's a very famous building. And the whole thing was they wanted to, you know, they said, well, here we are.

• 29:08Speaker 05

  Taiwan is a very politically sensitive area and we have a very large neighbor and we're not sure if they're interested in, you know, our buildings. And we were never actually 100% sure if this was people from the Taiwanese authority who were worried about China? Or if this was China trying to hire us to do something in Taiwan? I mean, I think it was probably all the up and up, but the job wound up never coming, you know, coming to fruition. I said, you know what? That's probably for the best. I'm fine with that. The other one was on the training side at RTA. We did have a student. This was very recent. We've never, we've never had this come up until very recently. We had a student in one of our access control classes where, I mean, if you, I don't know if in the show notes you'll link.

• 29:53Speaker 05

  You can see like what our training is very clear. It's talking about like I class and room keys and badge cloning and things like that was one of the things. And this one person showed up and almost within the first hour, he started asking questions about, so is this how credit cards work? And we're like, well, I mean, credit cards, you know, like tap to pay. I mean, they use NFC, they use near field. I mean, it's like RFID, it is. You know, inductively coupled, but we, you know, we're talking about badge control systems that you don't, you don't use credit cards to get into your data centers.

• 30:26Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 30:27Speaker 05

  And he keeps listening to you. No, but when are we going to do the credit card stuff? You know, ISO, ISO fourteen, four, four, B. And we're like, well, what, did you just like, Google? What? He was asking questions that made it sound like he just Googled something like card cloning and found us. And it became apparent that he was literally in class because he thought he was going to learn how to clone credit cards. And everyone around him, this is a mix of like feds and other people in the room looking over at him. And he said, it's, it's like the guy who walks into the head shop and is like, this glass pipe is for the marijuana's, right? And, you know?

• 31:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna say, it's, it sounds like, uh, it sounds like the nine eleven hijackers that want to learn how to fly but not land the airplane. You're kind of like, ah.

• 31:14Speaker 05

  Right? Yeah. And eventually we talked to him during some breaks and he sounded like a guy, he didn't sound like he was a criminal. It sounded like he was trying to maybe

• 31:25Jack Murphy?

  aspire.

• 31:26Speaker 05

  embark on a new career. He just didn't quite understand why it was, I think he, he told a story to us about how a relative of his had had a legitimate like credit card fraud. And how it just got reversed. Because, you know, like you call your bank and you say, I wasn't in Kansas City. And so he's like, oh, what if you could copy a credit card? And then you could use it in a bunch of cities and then you claim it was fraud? It's like free money. He was very young. He was just a very young person and young people are naive. And we said, first of all, no, I mean, that's, that is not like a crime. That is a crime. You can't do that.

• 31:58Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  Two, we don't do that here. And three, you've just said a lot of things that are very actionable in front of people. You should not, you don't, don't do that. Please, please rethink. And we, we talked, we talked to him a lot, actually, the parking lot. We, the second day, we said, we're sorry, we, we're gonna have to, we refunded you. We're like, this is not the class for you. I think you got the wrong idea. No harm, no foul. You know, we took the equipment back, you know, the kit. So he listened to what we had to say, and I think maybe it sent him on a better path. But that was a shocker for me, how you could, you know, look at our class description and come away thinking that that's what the class was about. And he just didn't know the security world.

• 32:41Speaker 05

  When we explained, he's like, "Why are all these other people in your class?" And we're like, "Well, because they're doing it for good." Like, they're doing it to test and work with these companies to make it better.

• 32:51Speaker 06

  Right.

• 32:52Speaker 05

  He had no idea that could be a career. He's like, "That's so strange. Why would anyone do that?"

• 32:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 06

  It's fascinating. I mean, I wonder, you know, because classes like yours, same as like tactical shooting classes or whatever, that there are probably a lot of wannabes out there, right? Who take the classes and really, and I don't mean wannabe in an insulting way. It's just, they have this idea of being, you know, Johnny Highspeed. They take the class and then never do anything with it.

• 33:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:23Speaker 06

  But, yeah, yeah.

• 33:25Speaker 05

  All the guys who saw John Wick and wanted to learn center axis relock.

• 33:27Speaker 06

  Exactly, exactly, exactly. I do like center axis relock. But, so, that's interesting that you were like a sysadmin and network admin. I, you know, in my mind, for some reason, I thought that maybe, you know, when you were doing the vanilla stuff, that you were like a locksmith or something.

• 33:49Speaker 05

  So I did get my certifications across the board, but that sort of came around the other direction later. Ever since, I have a rule for myself that every year, I want to take at least one or two trainings of some kind, just to learn, just to always be learning a new skill. I think you learn, not just about the training that you're in, you learn it. Even I just, I like teaching. I am a teacher by trade, right? And I just learn about teaching by watching other people teach. And I say, "Okay, boy, I wouldn't have presented that concept that way." I would think of it this way, so but yeah, just learning a new skill just to keep the brain as elastic as you can. So, over time, I've added many credentials and letters to

• 34:33Speaker 05

  my name in this space, just because, I mean, it's like, I won't say a vacation for me, but it is a mental, it is definitely a mental pleasure week when I go down to Lockmasters, or Mark Bates Academy, or the SAVTA Safe Tech Conference, something like that. These are skills that I sort of kind of had because I had self-taught myself along the way, and I wanted to, alright, now I think I know this, let me sit in the class. Oh, actually, no, I didn't, I didn't know the last 10% of it. I didn't know this other, this new tool exists. I learned that 10 years ago, and now there's a new tool. So I'm finding great value, but at the end of these classes, you wind up, you know, with paper you can hang on the wall, and then you wind up with actual certifications and accreditations.

• 35:15Speaker 05

  And I say, oh, that's pretty cool. So yes, I am, I am a SAVTA certified, now certified professional safe technician. I passed my CPS. I have a lower number as a locksmith. I'm a forensic locksmith now. So yeah, people like Tom Demont and Drumpy, these, these are icons in the forensics world. They taught me things that you can microscopically look inside of locks, and see techniques and tools that might have been in there. Technically, I could testify in court. I don't think I would survive a Daubert challenge or anything. I'm not a professional expert witness by trade. Things like the government safe work. I mean, I'm a, I'm a GSA safe and vault technician and inspector. It's a very long, long set of training. You take it at MBA, you take it at Lockmasters, it's two weeks

• 35:57Speaker 05

  long. I don't spend all my days on military bases and government installations servicing safes and vaults.

• 36:03Speaker 06

  Right.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  But I'm certified to.

• 36:05Speaker 06

  Right.

• 36:05Speaker 05

  I can help you build a SCIF. And, you know, the one time a year that we have a client who says, hey, we need a, you know, SCIF certified room in this new building. Or the one or two times, I'll do, because you don't make a lot of money on a lot of these government jobs, they're, they're GSA rates. But I'll get a call from an army base. I live right near, you know, Fort Lewis McCord. Or I'll get a call, like there was a Secret Service office that called me and they said, hey, you know, we have this safe that we have to decommit, usually decommissioning. They're like, yeah, we're trying to break this office down and we can't throw this freaking safe out because there might be contents in it. The custodian's long retired. We gotta get somebody in there. And I'll take the job just for the fun of it, just to keep the skills fresh and to, it's fun. It's fun to make some sparks and make a little bit of smoke. And then you kind of turn your back

• 36:50Speaker 05

  as the custodian opens the, the, the control drawer and you hear, like, there's, there's a video on my YouTube channel where actually he, they allowed me to record and the screen goes black. So you don't see what he's, but you hear him go, oh, man, there was way more in here than we thought there was in here. Holy shit, there's a gun in here, you know, stuff like that. So I'll do it, I'll do it just for the fun of that.

• 37:10Jack Murphy?

  So let's start jumping into the topic of safes and safe cracking. I think before we get into the cracking aspect, we should probably talk a little bit about safes. Um, most people, I think most listeners know what a safe is and have some idea in their mind from like a Donald Duck cartoon guy turning the dial and the door opens and you keep your gold coins inside. Um, but do you want to talk a little bit about the development of safes, um, the modernization of them, what people use them for, the different types of safes that are out there?

• 37:42Speaker 05

  Certainly, certainly. A safe or any storage container, a safe, a vault, a safe room. The idea is to make a container that is not impenetrable, because nothing's impenetrable. But you want to cause an attacker more headache than it would be ultimately worth for them to gain the spoils that are contained within. So if you have your jewelry in your house and your, you know, your, your important documents, whatever, we'll assign a value to that. Maybe you have a very nice gun collection, your, you know, you and your spouse and your kids have some valuable jewelry that you've gotten over the years. Call it, I don't know, $50,000, $100,000, anything more than that

• 38:27Speaker 05

  in terms of financial instruments and hard, you should probably be putting them in a, in a bank vault or a safe deposit box somewhere, in my opinion. But you might have 50K. Well, an attacker, if they know that you have, oh, that's a really wealthy home, let's break in there and steal stuff. If it's going to cost the attacker, The like, let's say ten, twenty thousand dollars in specialized drill rigs and like I have all this safe cracking equipment, but it costs money. Right. And it's going to cost the attacker a lot of time and effort. And they're making a lot of noise and they're worried about their exposure and their likelihood of getting caught. The attacker is going to kind of do the do the math and say, ah, it's not worth it. I'm going to break in somebody else's house down the road.

• 39:09Speaker 05

  A safe or a vault is designed to cause more headache, time delay, energy, effort and resource spend. Then then the attacker would gain demonstrability by by the risk of breaking in. So historically, this was all brute force. Mm hmm. Uh, you see, you know, like the old, the the old West, like people dynamiting safes and things like that. That's that's what you would have. You'd have usually round, almost like the old Victor Cannonball type safes. You'd have these cast iron, very thick doors. And the lock mechanism was was not something somebody would tinker with. The lock and a combination on the lock was designed like if you didn't know the combination, people weren't teaching

• 39:52Speaker 05

  safe cracking as a skill broadly back then. Right. It was all about that pry bars and nitroglycerin and how how can you withstand detonating the safe? Or if you had to blow the safe up, will it blow up all the money in it? I think that was in maybe some old cowboy movie where they they blow up a safe. But then the money all gets, you know, gets burned up inside the money. They're going through, this one's pretty good. I think this now this bill is a lost cause. But over time, we do run the risk of not just sort of smack and grab. We started saying, well, what about if an authorized person were to try to steal from the safe? Mm hmm. What if somebody were to, you know, use duress on an authorized person and say, hey, you open the safe right now for me?

• 40:38Speaker 05

  Which didn't happen nearly as much as we are led to believe by Hollywood. It was actually very hard to like hold up a town in the old West because you'd have to get away. Right? I mean, there's only one or two roads out of town. Right. There's nowhere to go. You're on a horse. Guess what? Everyone else is on a horse. Yeah. If your horse runs out of energy, uh, fifty miles outside of town, the people coming behind you with all their guns are going to be right on your heels. Yeah. Uh, those sort of robberies like that, bank robberies, really, uh, changed with the automobile. That's the history of of modern bank robberies with sort of Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde and Lamb. But the idea of a bank robber who would maybe not use brute force or duress,

• 41:20Speaker 05

  but who would use, you know, like, I'm gonna be the inside man breaking in. That was also a real big concern in the government. As we started to see the modernization of the intelligence apparatus in our country, which is really a product of, you know, the first world war, the interwar years with the OSS, and then, of course, World War II is when we get really the modern intelligence community. The idea of classified documents and document storage, and what if we have spies who have been bribed or leveraged? Well, this person knew the combination. It's not how robust the safe is, or how do we prevent that? So that's where we start to see things like the development of time locks, where on the inside of the safe door, there is a movement, there's a mechanical time movement, and you

• 42:01Speaker 05

  set it, and until that clock winds down, the safe simply cannot be effectively opened.

• 42:10Speaker 05

  And time locks were great for a while, until, as I like to remind people, December 7th, 1941, the day that we'll live in infamy, was a Sunday. And there's actual stories during the attack on Pearl, where people were running around at the Navy Base, they're running around Schofield Barracks, Hickam Field, and they're like trying to get into the safes to get the war plants, because Japanese heroes are flying out of the sky, and things are blowing up in the harbor. And all of a sudden, oh, wow, war is seven days a week. We can't just use time locks anymore for our government safes. Banks, to this day, banks still use time locks. Civilian world still uses time locks extensively. But the development of manipulation-resistant, or what some people would call manipulation-proof,

• 42:53Speaker 05

  kind of anti-manipulation safe mechanisms, and dual custody safe locks. This is all a product of the Second World War and the immediate post, you know, World War II kind of Cold War era, the espionage era being really in its heyday. That's where we see the modern landscape of safes and vaults, and mechanisms that are meant not just to resist brute force, but are meant to prevent unauthorized access from all different manifold angles.

• 43:23Speaker 10

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• 45:33Speaker 10

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• 45:53Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week, it's going to come into your inbox, and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House, and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you, as social media algorithms are pretty iffy, and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once-a-week email, it'll slide into your inbox, and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week.

• 46:33Speaker 06

  It's really good, man. I'm checking it out.

• 46:37Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Go there, and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website, and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support, and hope you'll consider signing up.

• 47:00Speaker 06

  Where's the link?

• 47:02Jack Murphy?

  The link will also be down in the description, if you're looking for it there.

• 47:05Speaker 06

  And that's teamhospodcast.kit, K-I-T, Kilo India Tango, dot com, backslash, join.

• 47:18Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 47:32Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic," in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 47:44Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 47:49Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 47:55Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 48:17Speaker 06

  And so I never knew that about World War II, did you, Jack? About Pearl Harbor? No, first time I heard that one. Fascinating. So what

• 48:29Speaker 06

  what are the steps to, you know, because like, you know, when we look at modern movies or even older movies, you know, the criminal always gets an exact replica of the safe. And then they spend, you know, days or weeks practicing on it with their stethoscope or, you know, their drill where it just hits the glass pane. But what are the actual steps for a modern like safe cracker?

• 48:57Speaker 05

  So that's a really cool question and a guy I like very much. He's been in touch with me in the past. He's an icon of the industry, Dave McComey. He actually appears in some videos online. He's been interviewed about how realistic was this or that scene in a movie? He has a wonderful walkthrough. I'll, I'll send you the URL if you want to put it in the show notes for people. But it is true that safe crackers and technicians need to know like what's on the other side of that steel door. What is the mechanism? And learning about it either by getting a replica of the safe or if you're on the up and up, if you're in the actual SAFTA, Safe and Vault Technicians Association land,

• 49:38Speaker 05

  there's a whole knowledge database. There's, there's the list council, there's locknet, there's, there's whole databases that you can reference that show, oh, this, from this year to this year, Diebold Mosler was making their vault doors with this mechanism and this bolt work on this. So this is where the mechanism is. This is where the drill point is. This is where you want to be careful. There's a relock trigger over here. There's a relock device over here. So knowing what's on the inside is often the first step in trying to either neutralize a safe or even just diagnose a problem. You know, figuring out, oh, okay, the safe was working yesterday. Customer reports it doesn't work today. Well, if you roll up over there and you say, how are you, show, show me how you're dialing the safe? And you watch them and you say that that should work.

• 50:23Speaker 05

  Why is that not working? And then you think to yourself, wait, I know safe technicians that have safe, different models of SafeLock, you know, in their van. And they'll they'll cut away and they'll they'll actually wait a minute if I'm if I'm turning it clockwise, what the what the frig am I doing? They're looking at they go, no, no, no, the fly. Okay, so you might have a stuck fly going clock counter counterclockwise. Okay, try it this way here. Turn the thing and then you get a dead blow hammer and you say, wait, don't turn the number bang tile the next the next number now. Okay. Okay, now you're about to hit the bolt work on this side. Bam. Okay. Yeah, we got her open. Cool. Because you need to know if I hit it right about here, if something stuck or wasn't greased. Yeah, knowing what's on the inside of the door is a huge part of of the whole process.

• 51:07Jack Murphy?

  Fascinating. It's fascinating. Do you want to talk a little bit? Because I think during your talk at DEF CON, you mentioned this a little bit about what the stethoscope actually was and how there was a period, maybe a brief period of time where that was useful, but not today.

• 51:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yes. So to this day, if you're doing manipulation, this is with mechanical, purely mechanical safe locks. I mean, there are attacks for electronic safes as well. But manipulation, as we've often seen in Hollywood, you'll see that, as you mentioned, the stethoscope or the low tech is like putting the, you know, the ear up to a glass or something like that.

• 51:41Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 51:42Speaker 05

  You're not really hearing a lot of many mechanisms clicking and clanking like the Foley guy doing the production of a film likes to add all these sound effects. What you're trying to find is very precisely learning what are called contact points. It's a very specific area of the safe dial where, to use some technical terms, where the nose on the lever arm is trying to drop into the opening on what's called a cam wheel. And you're trying to find, okay, touch here, touch here. And as you're dialing the dial, you're dialing this cam wheel, touch, touch, touch. And you want to get those contact

• 52:22Speaker 05

  points very carefully, carefully identified. Because as you manipulate the process of manipulating a safe. Is experimenting with different numbers around the wheel and seeing if those contact points change very slightly. It's actually happening, and I don't know if your viewers are getting this in audio only if they're seeing, seeing my hands in front of my black shirt here, but imagine if that nose is dropping a little further into an aperture, those contact points will get a little tighter together than they would if you were up here, higher up. You're, you're looking for where the, the safe wheels are almost lined up, but not fully lined up, and you're taking notes, you say, oh, something's happening around 17, question

• 53:05Speaker 05

  mark, 17, and you come back and you run the numbers again, and you say, okay, no, I'm seeing something on 42, maybe, and you're, you're slowly getting the safe to leak information out at you. But as Dave and others have pointed out in, in their videos about this subject, you're doing much more visual observation. So it's fine if you want to use a stethoscope, or in modern times, we would use an audio amplifier, a little magnetic microphone, you can hear the contact points, but you're never, in, in Hollywood, you're often just kind of, you see the person is looking off into space as they're just listening, just listening. What you're really doing is listening and looking particularly.

• 53:41Speaker 06

  And what, what are you, are you looking for like little hitches and then as the dial goes or something like that?

• 53:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're looking for the behavior of the dial at a very specific spot where it would be called the drop in area, that's where the contact points are. And if those contact points, if I'm running the dial and my contact points are always, let's call it 98 and 7, tit, tit, tit, and I run the dial some more, 98, 7, 98, 7, and then I'm starting to, and I get to a point where I'm trying some numbers, and then I come back to my contact points, and then all of a sudden, it's, it's at 99 and 6, like, ooh, my contact points got a little tighter together. I think my nose is dropping a little further into the cam. Let's, let's jot that down, I might have a good number there. Now, just because you've found a potential number, well, you don't know where in the

• 54:31Speaker 05

  combination that is, there's a series of diagnostic dialing techniques that you would use to try to determine where on the dial, or where in the combination that the dial should be dialed to that number. And little by little, and sometimes it's fun, sometimes if you're working with the customer, and you say, "I'm finding a 17, and I'm finding a 76," and they say, "Oh yeah, that's right, Dad loved 1770, he was a real patriot. That's the second and third digits, I remember that now." You say, "Well, does that jog you memory?" "Oh, do you remember the first friggin' digit? We could just dial for dollars, we could just try all the..." You just reduce the key space a hell of a lot by telling me that.

• 55:05Speaker 06

  Yeah. You know, this itself sounds like its own specialty, right? And then, you have all of the alarm bypass, electrical bypass, all the different types of sensors, all the different, like, types of doors. Do you consider yourself an expert in, like, in all these things? Or do you consider yourself like an expert in entry, and being a generalist, and then, like, being able to brush up on stuff as needed?

• 55:37Speaker 05

  I think it's the hallmark of hubris, of the worst kind, to consider yourself an expert in too many things, or maybe any one thing at all. So, I'll be the first to point out, I'm not necessarily an expert in almost anything, but I'm a dedicated, I'm a dedicated person in many things, we will say. There's a lot of people I work with who would disagree with me and say I'm being too modest, probably, but that's for them to come on and tell you about later. If they can talk about me, I'll talk about... I work with plenty of experts. I work with the electronic access control expert, my colleague Bobbick, who owns RTA and Core. I work with my alarm system expert, our guy Brian, who came out of the intelligence communities, right? But I am, I am a specialist in several things, and I believe in broadening your horizons as much as possible.

• 56:22Speaker 05

  Which, again, it's been, it's been an amazing journey. I never was a ones and zeros person, I mean, I was a network person, but I never was an access control, electronic locks person at all. And through...

• 56:36Speaker 05

  Sitting at first, just sitting in the back of the room when, you know, Red Team Alliance Access Control class, I would just kind of sit in the back in case somebody needed me to hand them something. Well, I gotta hand out the next, I'll hand out the access control cards. And then I would, you know, sit up front with Bobic and I would help him. Like, I can teach the basic proxy cloning. I can, I can do that module if you need to take a break from your, ease your voice. And now I routinely fill in, uh, running whole sections of the access control class, just because I work with these exceptionally skilled people and it's rubbed off on me. It's made me better to take, just like the, uh, you know, the forensics thing. Like, I'm not an expert by any means at forensics, but I wanted to learn lock forensics. And you keep seeing these guys. You say, you're gonna, you're

• 57:20Speaker 05

  gonna come to my next class, man? You took the, you did the first class, but let's come take the advanced class next month. It's like, man, I don't do this for a living. It's like, yeah, but you were great in class. I said, all right, just come to your class, man. And all of a sudden you look around and you go, holy crap. Am I better at this than the average bear?

• 57:38Jack Murphy?

  Uh, let me also ask you about some of the other tools that get used. You mentioned, you know, there's like $20,000 drills, specialized drills. I've also heard about the thermic lance gets used sometimes, um, channeling our knowledge from, uh, James Caan's, uh, role in Thief. I think that's a 1981 film. Uh, great movie. But, uh, anyway, what, what do you, um, what are some of the other tools of the trade that get used even as we move forward into the era of electronic locks?

• 58:13Speaker 05

  Right on, right on. And yes, Jimmy, Jimmy Caan in Thief, that is a real, that's a real rig that he is using. Uh, the, whoever their technical advisor was on that film is, is exemplary because, and again, like Dave, Dave McComey did a whole breakdown of that movie in one of his videos online. And it's just, it's, and also Mike, I just like, well, I love Michael Mann's work. It's like a whole world where cities are always perpetually wet and at night. I just love the look of it. And the idea of these, these big rigs, what you're trying to do with most professional safe cracking gear is apply force without fatiguing yourself.

• 58:53Speaker 05

  And maintaining a drill in a very accurate spot. Because anybody can just kind of go up with a joint, like when I'm breaking into a government safe and they're taking it out of service completely. I mean, I'll make a pretty big friggin hole in it. I'll just, I'll, I'll use a giant hole saw. And even then, I'm still trying to not fatigue my arms. I have a rig that'll mount the front of the, of the safe so I can just crank on it, use a big quill. But you're trying to apply pressure in a way that you can get through, because there are all different kinds of material. There's all kinds of metallurgy and cutting science. Are you doing a metal cutting technique? Are you doing a grinding technique? Are you doing precision cutting where you're actually switching bits?

• 59:37Speaker 05

  There are plenty of times where you're going through different styles of material. So there's different types of barrier mesh where it's, it's soft mild steel, then it's the hard steel plate, then it's ball bearings, something that's like hard plate that you can't cut through with high speed steel. You have to switch to a diamond cutter where you're actually coring it out and you're punching and you're cracking it away and you're knocking debris out of the hole. And then you switch, maybe you come up to, maybe you're using, as you say, a burning bar or thermic lance. And then there might be a layer of material like copper in the middle of the safe just to distribute the heat. So, and copper won't ablate away. You can't oxidize, like you can't do an oxidizing burn on copper. You have to switch to your, switch to another tool.

• 1:00:20Speaker 05

  And all of these things, it raises the stakes for the attacker and it raises the level of investment that the attacker would have to have. If this is your livelihood and you have a, a full Safe-Tech shop, you have all the tools for an attacker to break in. If they weren't playing, if this is their one big score, they're not going to get through all of that. They would have to invest in so much time and training. But yeah, the precision point, if you, if you're even a quarter inch off, you can not only miss your, like what you're drilling for, you can ruin the job. You can not only fail to open it, you can make it inoperable, completely unable to be opened ever again. Wow. Without completely destroying a whole other side of the safe, let's say. So maintaining that exact precision point, that's why you see these large rigs that

• 1:01:04Speaker 05

  will be fixed in place, either with a vacuum pump or magnetically attached or by some other means of, of stabilization.

• 1:01:14Speaker 06

  I think all I ever learned was drill a hole in it, fill it with water and put some blasting caps in it. So I guess, I guess that uh, I guess.

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, the score, the score was, was one of Brando's last pictures. De Niro was in that with the young Ed Norton.

• 1:01:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 05

  And that is, it is based on a type of technique that has been done. You, you, the one major thing about that movie that's not real is most safes aren't watertight. So in that movie, they actually tap the, I believe it's they tap the sprinkler system. They, they like pull up a big hose of water down. And it wouldn't work that way in real life, which also I'm a, I am a, I'm a fire services technician. Now I do a lot of life safety and fire suppression inspection. And do you know that if water is flowing through any sprinkler head, it'll set off alarms in a building. There's flow sensors that are all tied into any building automation and, and emergency services controls. So you can't just get a bunch of water out of the, out of the sprinkler head and have nothing go

• 1:02:13Speaker 05

  wrong in the building. That won't work. But that was a real technique. Yeah. But you would have to tape the entire safe up. You'd have to fill the whole safe with water by sealing the entire safe shut.

• 1:02:24Speaker 06

  That's fascinating. So with, you know, Jack had mentioned, you know, like, I, I think you mentioned biometrics, but like, you know, cause both with your regular sort of breaking and entering stuff and, you know, with the advent of the flipper and, you know, and all these other tools that are out there now, and with safes and security, we see biometrics. Are these systems more secure, less secure, or just secure in a different way?

• 1:02:51Speaker 05

  The diplomatic answer is, I like your phrasing. They're secure in a different way. They are solving for a different problem. Nowadays, loads of businesses, your, let's say a convenience store, you know, like a 7-Eleven or something, might have a, a cash safe, you know, the sticker on the door, teller does not have access to safe, no more than $20, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Those used to all be mechanical locks. And the teller in fact would not, the, the kid working the register wouldn't have the combination. It was just the money drop guy and the manager.

• 1:03:26Speaker 05

  Those introduced a lot of user friction and they weren't really preventing a lot of robberies. They, you know, nowadays, if somebody's gonna try to, try to steal from a money drop, they're gonna rob the bread truck, right? They're gonna rob the A car, the armored car. So they said, why are we using these mechanical locks that are more cumbersome to maintain? They're harder for a lot of customers to learn how to use. Customers didn't really understand. We live in a world of keypads nowadays. If someone can dial a phone, they can understand how to use a keypad electronic safe.

• 1:03:59Speaker 05

  Safe technicians, especially older guys, didn't like the introduction of electronics because they were, quote, "less secure." And yeah, there's, and electronic bypasses is way easier than mechanical one, right? There is a tool called the Phoenix. There's a tool called the Little Black Box. We won't get way into what's called differential power analysis, and that's how these tools work. But there are tools that will pop open a lot of electronic locks very quickly. But that's not the main problem that a lot of these safe manufacturers and small businesses are solving for. The main problem they're solving for is, I need a way to very quickly operate a safe. And if I change the combination, I know how to write down the combination. I know how to enter the new combination. I won't forget it.

• 1:04:44Speaker 05

  And that their day-to-day problem isn't a stick-up or a robbery. Their problem is like, hey, the guy from Brink's is waiting here and he's yelling at me. And he says, "Sorry, you're taking too long. I don't know what you're doing wrong. I'm gonna get you next week."

• 1:04:54Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:04:55Speaker 05

  So electronic locks are more convenient. They're not always, they're definitely not more secure, in my opinion.

• 1:05:00Jack Murphy?

  Right. Right. Let's jump into the history of intelligence services and how they intersect with this field.

• 1:05:11Jack Murphy?

  To add a little bit of context for folks out there, like, I think we should talk a little bit about why this matters. Intelligence services are known to, amongst other things, break into embassies and break into safes in those embassies, if not just take the safe out and break into it off-site somewhere. There's an article in Smithsonian Magazine that I think a lot of you guys would be interested in. It's called "The CIA Burglar Who Went Rogue", about this guy named Douglas Grout. And it's about this guy who was a safe cracker for the CIA. And he broke into safes in all sorts of different embassies in different parts of the world. And then he felt that he got screwed over and he sort of tried to blackmail the CIA for money. And it didn't go so well.

• 1:05:55Jack Murphy?

  But that's an interesting article to talk about, you know, how these intelligence services have these capabilities. I don't know if you read that one, Deviant, and what your thoughts are about that particular incident.

• 1:06:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, so the real fascinating thing about the IC world is that these are technicians who aren't breaking in to safes in a way that is easily detectable, right? Many times, if, I mean, I can, I can teach manipulation to anybody, any of y'all, like, we teach a manipulation class at RTA. But for the most part, I'm not usually manipulating a safe. If somebody says, hey, this safe, you know, needs to get opened, and even your best technicians nowadays, drill and repair and patch it up. You can, we can patch it up so it looks like we were never there, but that takes a little while.

• 1:06:44Speaker 05

  And if somebody inspects the inside of the safe, they can see, oh, yeah, look, look, take the panel off. You can see, oh, there's, there's somebody who was in here. So getting into a safe in the way that even with dedicated inspection, it does not look like anyone was ever there. That's kind of the, the real bread and butter of the intelligence community. And that's the scariest thing because if you know somebody broke in, you can respond. You can either change your security posture going forward, or if you had a list of important documents in there, you can, well, those documents are now compromised. We're not going to use those root plans. We're not going to use these assets anymore. If somebody in the, in the intelligence world

• 1:07:26Speaker 05

  really just kind of goes out there and operates in a way that isn't easy to detect, that's really freaky. That's really scary because they could be operating for a long time without people reporting the crimes. And it's, there have been instances where professional technicians, if I'll give you one, you, you mentioned that article for your viewers. I'll try to give you one again. I don't know if you do show notes, I'll find it. There was a crew of professional safe technicians. I believe they operated mostly around the American southeast, out of Florida and other parts of Georgia. They would use general aviation, flying VFR. My wife, you know, my wife's almost an aspiring pilot, and my friend Alyssa's a pilot. Like, VFR, Visual Flight Rules, you don't have to fly flight plans.

• 1:08:11Speaker 05

  You can just take your little Cessna, or your little Piper Cub or something, and just fly to another city. And if you follow, you know, the rules of the sky, like, you're just, okay, I'm flying at the right altitude, and then I land, okay, I radio. And these guys were bouncing around to different towns, and getting in and getting out over the course of a weekend, not staying in, you know, hotels or anything like that under their names. And it was, people couldn't figure out, like, why, this is like professional safe technician work, and the cops and the FBI were looking at lock shops, like, in that town. Right. Like, were all your employees here? Did you even take any tools home this weekend? What happened? How is, this is professional work. Eventually, eventually, they got caught, as many criminals do. But, yeah, in the government land, the idea of that, what we would call a clandestine

• 1:08:56Speaker 05

  entry. Quick, uh, quick bits of terminology for anybody who's interested in the forensic classifications of things. You have overt, covert, surreptitious, and clandestine. And these speak to the questions of, who will notice, and how will they notice that something bad has happened? Uh, overt, anyone can understand, right? If I make a giant hole with a hole saw in a small government filing cabinet that's locked up, and it's going to the scrap heap, well, that's a giant friggin' hole, and I'm not repairing it. That's very overt. Who will notice? Anybody will notice, with their naked eye. And how will they know? They'll just look at it, they'll look at it, it's friggin' got a hole in it. Covert, when you talk about covert operations, it doesn't mean there's no evidence, it just

• 1:09:40Speaker 05

  means that someone would not notice the evidence unless they had special training. So, if I'm leaving small scratches or marks on a surface of a door, because I was using some, some hook to bypass my way into a room, anybody could see that, you don't need magnification, like, oh, look, there's some scratches on the latch. But unless someone's had special training, it wouldn't put two and two together to say, oh, I, those, those are not regular wear and tear, that's a, that's a bypass latch tool. It's a covert entry. Surreptitious, now we get one better. Who will notice? Somebody with training. How will they notice they're specifically looking for it with investigative techniques? They're not just seeing it with a naked eye.

• 1:10:24Speaker 05

  They say, all right, let's get the magnifier out, dust it, let's look inside. That's the forensic locksmith thing that I'm seeing signs of surreptitious entry inside of a lock usually. But clandestine is the real, that's the real big one, right? That's when, who will notice? Nobody. How will they notice? They won't. You're not leaving attributable evidence that points to the nature of the crime or points back to you. Or if you're, you know, the government, it doesn't point back to you as a friendly power. You know, it's not like your embassy is not getting a phone call. So that kind of skill, that is that because if you break into a government safe, the value is not, hey, I got those secret documents.

• 1:11:07Speaker 05

  The real value is we got the documents and they don't know that we got them.

• 1:11:13Speaker 06

  It's interesting because that's not just with safe cracking, but that I remember that section in Tool where they had all the different package, at DEF CON, the, you know, the Tool corner, they had all the different packages.

• 1:11:26Speaker 05

  The tamper seals, yeah.

• 1:11:28Speaker 06

  Tamper seals and all that stuff. And, you know, people sitting there, you know, just patiently applying like acetone. I don't even know what they use, but you know, how do, how do I take what's in this box, out of this box, and put all of the, you know, tamper seals back on the box? So nobody knows I got in.

• 1:11:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 06

  Fascinating stuff. So.

• 1:11:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Acetone is one of the things you would use. Yeah, you can use very pure acetone, isopropyl is popular. You'll see the real secret sauce is a, is a, is a non-polymer. It's a, I'm trying to think, it's a non-polar solvent, it's called N heptane. Yeah, that's, and heptane does some wild stuff. You can, you can lift seals off of all kinds of weird substrates and it doesn't, there could be ink, like serial numbers on the seal. And if you smear that with acetone, that ink's gonna run, right? And heptane is lifting solvent, it doesn't even smear the ink, it's amazing.

• 1:12:22Speaker 06

  Crazy stuff. So, let's see, where to, where to pick up on this? Um, where, where do you want to start as far as, you know, Cold War? With KGB and CIA trying to break into and steal each other's secrets?

• 1:12:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, so that's a great, we talked about time locks and how we realized that in the government and military space, time locks, they ain't it. Like, it's not gonna, not gonna do the job. So we've had to develop what we thought, and many manufacturers touted as manipulation-resistant or manipulation-proof mechanisms. And over the years, the only clandestine technique was that very slow, methodical manipulation that I described, just dial manipulation. If you defeat that, or make it very hard to do, and there's, there's mechanical ways you can do that. If, if any of the listeners have ever had a combination lock, that they've had to enter a combination and then do another thing, twist a little,

• 1:13:24Speaker 05

  what's called a butterfly knob, knob, or push the dial in, or there's, it depends, maybe you're opening weapons lockers, a 2937, or an old 8400 series. Like, these were designed to prevent manipulation, or make manipulation very hard. The intelligence services that tried to get around that, there, there are ways to, to manipulate what are called Group One safes. The locks, it's just so challenging. They said, all right, we need a better way. We need, we need some other technique. What we started to see, and this, this is coming up around, you know, the 50s and really the 60s, we started to see the use of radiographic techniques, gamma graph methods, where, I mean, it just, it sounds utterly bananas when

• 1:14:08Speaker 05

  you describe it to people, but the use of a high-emittance radioactive isotope placed behind, or even sometimes within, the safe mechanism. Because on vault doors, they would do this by making a pinhole in the, in the door frame sometimes, or if it's a safe, you could just move the safe away from the wall, and put the radioactive isotope behind the safe. If they couldn't, they would get more isotope and just bring it in the next room. It'd be like, all right, which, go to the next room, just put it over there. And you're putting film, like you're literally putting x-ray film in front of the safe and developing an image to see what's happening inside the safe lock. And then you have to reverse out. There's a whole technique about it. I mentioned this

• 1:14:50Speaker 05

  in a talk that I gave recently about a team from Poland. Uh, there's a team, they were just called like Division Nine, like, you know, the special squad number nine. They were the invisible team. In fact, the name of the, there's a book all about it. It's called Niby Janie. It's a book. It means invisible. It's in Polish. The whole book is in Polish by Thomas Avasovich. He's a Polish investigative journalist. And what, what Division Nine, right? Well, a special group number nine was doing at the time, Poland was part of the Warsaw Pact. They were part of the comm block forces, right? So they were breaking into our embassies and our NATO allies' embassies using these techniques. The reason we know about it now is because of course Poland is no longer,

• 1:15:35Speaker 05

  the Warsaw Pact doesn't exist. Poland, late in the Cold War, I mean, they, they flipped, right? Poland became part of our allyship and all these intelligence operators suddenly were collaborating with us. Uh, some of them, we would just debrief them. Others were people that had to come to the West for like medical treatment because they were handling these friggin isotopes very unsafe.

• 1:15:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was wondering about that. Were they, you know, cause like when you get the x-rays, how you have to wear the, like the, you know, the, the lead thing, like, I can't imagine it was good for their health.

• 1:16:04Speaker 05

  No, it was not. And these, these guys knew that they were, they were taking a hit. They wore dosimeter badges and such, and some of them knew, uh, but they was all for, you know, there was, it was their job. That's what they saw it. And even just transporting the isotopes around, they kind of rigged up these not really safe containers just to make them slightly man portable. And they, you know, they, they used dosimeters and other measuring devices outside the container. Like, man, these are not, these are not doing the job. They're not good. They tell stories about how if they were on long jobs and they would drive from city to city, they would put the, the isotope in the trunk of one car. Thing would be down in its rear leaf springs, like this floating steering that was barely

• 1:16:47Speaker 05

  on the road. And they'd put one guy in the driving that car. And everyone else would get in another car like 50, 100 meters behind. And then caravan and then even on long trips, they'd stop and they'd rotate people out to who's the guy sitting with the isotope on this long drive. So yeah, it was not healthy. But for the longest time, they were doing things that was thought of as nothing short of magic. And people could not figure out, they were bringing these just troves of documents that the intel community in Poland and in Russia and elsewhere, they were sending the documents back like, how are you getting these documents? What the frig are you guys? You guys are wizards. And yeah, they were just, they were literally using electronic radiographic techniques to image our safe locks and get them open to see inside the safe.

• 1:17:32Speaker 06

  That's fascinating.

• 1:17:33Speaker 05

  And then we figured, we figured out something might be up. You know, they have their spies, just as we have our spies elsewhere. And they were trying to source the isotopes through various scientific research labs. And they had covers. Why are you buying this cobalt? They would use cobalt or iridium 192. And our people figured out there's something, something might be up with this, with this, I think, are they, are they doing that? And we tried it and we said,

• 1:17:59Speaker 07

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• 1:18:56Speaker 05

  Well, we can, yeah, this is actually a real thing. So we started making safes that would prevent that. And they, basically, we use plastic wheels inside of many of our safes. Plastic wheels and lead shielding. And then they would just use different isotopes. And there were different techniques that were even more dangerous. And, yeah, I talk all about that in this presentation that I gave in North Carolina and in DC not too long ago.

• 1:19:17Speaker 06

  Are those online? Are those presentations online?

• 1:19:19Speaker 05

  They are.

• 1:19:20Speaker 06

  Okay, great.

• 1:19:20Speaker 05

  They are. I'll drop links for you, and you can share them with others.

• 1:19:23Speaker 06

  Yep. Well, put, everything that he is talking about, I wrote down the name of, well, Division Nine, I'll just get the name of the book from you. You know, now with Google Translate, and you take a picture of a page and read it, like.

• 1:19:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, I do have, I do have a copy of the book that I doubt, you can even buy the book electronically, in Polish. And yeah, you can kind of machine translate it. So there's been this machine translated version that a bunch of my friends and I, we kick it around in the intelligence world. It's a fascinating read. At least one person who saw this, who speaks very fluent Polish, he's like, man, I want to do, I want to do a professional, like, proper translation.

• 1:20:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Speaker 05

  And I was like, well, Tomas is still, he's still a journalist, he's still in publication, you just reach out to the author.

• 1:20:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:20:07Speaker 05

  Tell him enough, if enough people in the United States market tell him, we want to read this book, maybe he'll do an official publication of it in English.

• 1:20:14Speaker 06

  For sure. Yeah. We should get in the publishing business, Jack.

• 1:20:18Jack Murphy?

  As far as some of the, you know, things that get stolen, in that Smithsonian article I mentioned, you can sort of infer that we're probably trying to break into safes and Pakistani embassies, probably trying to figure out nuclear strategy stuff. That's just my inference from the article. There's another interesting report out there that says in 1958, the CIA actually accessed the Sputnik satellite that the Soviets had put into orbit, and they had access to it while it was out on world tour. And they had it for three hours to themselves to dismantle, examine, reassemble, and then, as you point out, clandestinely replace without

• 1:21:02Jack Murphy?

  anyone being the wiser. Interesting case of, you know, breaking and entering for technological intelligence, I guess you could say.

• 1:21:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's really cool. I did. I never realized that. That's really dope. What the heck with this guy? Were the Soviets just like going out to dinner and leaving it in their hotel room? What the hell were they doing?

• 1:21:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:24Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, they were in the land of the big PX, you know, so.

• 1:21:28Jack Murphy?

  Apparently, it's in a book by Patrick J. McGarvey, who wrote it a while back. But as far as what country that happened in, that got redacted by the CIA. So we don't know.

• 1:21:43Speaker 06

  Fascinating.

• 1:21:44Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:21:47Speaker 06

  I mean, I imagine that they also didn't only take, but probably at times placed or exchanged.

• 1:21:53Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:21:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have people doing what you want them to do when they think it's what they're supposed to be doing.

• 1:22:06Speaker 06

  So how?

• 1:22:09Speaker 06

  When did you? Is this sort of love of the history of it kind of recent for you, Deviant? Or have you been studying like the history of the IC and safe cracking and stuff like that for quite a while?

• 1:22:24Speaker 05

  It's something that has grown over time for me. I definitely have done some reading in the past, but this, yeah, this latest, because the book I mentioned from Tomas Avasovich, that's only, I believe, from 2021 or 2022. That was a pandemic read for me.

• 1:22:43Speaker 06

  Fascinating.

• 1:22:44Jack Murphy?

  So what else do you have for us on this topic? I've spilled some tea. You have some juicy details about intelligence services and safe cracking?

• 1:22:54Speaker 05

  Well, let's see. I mean, all the locks that we use in the government space nowadays, and I touched on this in that same presentation. Anybody who's ever worked maybe for a DoD contractor or something like that, you may, some of the listeners may be familiar with these. They're called electromechanical safe locks nowadays, where it's not a keypad, it is a dial, but there's an electronic component in there, and you actually have to spin it a number of times to spin it up. And to charge it and then a little numerical display will show these are these are safe locks made by nowadays they're made by Dormakaba the Kaba company is huge it was Kaba Mas for a long time because the originating company was Mas Hamilton the entire story of

• 1:23:39Speaker 05

  how the Mas Hamilton safe company came about and how it was proposed as a standard it gets into a lot of if you care about how your tax dollars get spent in this country you know the the FFL 2740 government lock standard was really pushed by a small group of people who designed they came up with a new idea for a lock and then they used a lot of political influence to get it accepted as a new standard and then they were the that was the only lock that that qualified under the standard Right. And this for the longest time if many people would be familiar with the name Sergeant and Greenleaf I mean they're a huge name in the safe and lock world. We we use those to lock up weapons in the army.

• 1:24:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, so Sergeant and Greenleaf like they had the entire safe lock market covered especially for the government and the army and then this new standard came out and Sergeant and Greenleaf locks didn't comply because only one lock complied. Right. The one that the designers of the standard made and S and G spent all this effort trying to undermine and figure out hey how do we get either that product knocked off the qualifying products list or how do we get a product approved on the qualifying products list and all this inside politicking and inside baseball where these locks were being tested and evaluated and found to be faulty they were found to be defeatable and yeah just a lot of a lot

• 1:25:09Speaker 05

  of like senators are involved making phone calls and a lot of lawsuits. In fact, it comes back to Dave, Dave McComey and his, you know, his colleagues, Mike Madden, Mike Madden was, he's DOE, so he was at Livermore. I know I've spoken to Mike about this at length as well. And yeah, they, they were proving, like with experiments, they were proving, hey, this brand new whiz bang lock is vulnerable. And they did a whole write up about it that was going to be published in the trade press. And it never saw the light of day because there was a lot of threats over lawsuits. And, and you know, to his, to his credit, I really, Dave is just a lovely, I can't say enough nice things about Mr. McComey. Dave McComey is a great guy. He didn't want the main technician who did the, was paid, hired to do the research, right?

• 1:25:53Speaker 05

  He didn't want him to experience ramifications, maybe have his clearance screwed around with. So that article was never, was never put out. Now, I've, I've read the article, I've seen it. But yeah, for the longest time, this was just this rumor, oh, have you heard? Somebody used to mess with that XO lock. No, that didn't happen. Yeah, it happened. It absolutely happened. And none of these locks have ever been removed from the qualified products list. To this day, I still find the original, original lock, the XO7 it was called. It is still in the field on some containers. Props for long lifespan, right? It's way beyond their originally anticipated duty cycle. But they're still out there. They're still in use locking up materials to this day.

• 1:26:38Jack Murphy?

  Well, it's interesting that that sort of reflects what you and the other instructors and the people at DEFCON and Black Hat teach on the hacker, electronic, digital side, that everyone claims their stuff is secure, but it really isn't. And a lot of these companies kind of try to whitewash that or gloss over it and pretend it's not happening. And it's interesting to see the parallel in, in the physical security world as well.

• 1:27:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, I really do wish that more companies. Operated in the way that finally, software and network security companies do now with, you know, like bug bounty programs. Right. And willingness to engage with researchers and do what would nowadays be called a coordinated disclosure, where the researcher gets to put out a paper, but only after the threat they have found has been mitigated properly. And they even, oftentimes, the researchers will work with these vendors that have these programs. They'll say, all right, let's collaborate. Let's keep you under NDA until we get it fixed. And then you get the credit and the fame and the recognition for your hard work. And the public is made safer, both in the short term by not disclosing, and in the long term by everyone getting to upgrade and getting

• 1:27:47Speaker 05

  a new version. We don't see that nearly as much with the physical mechanical world. Right. Because, you know, if a software package has a bug, they fix it and they say, all right, download version 14.6. You download it on the internet, you click OK, install. If a SafeLock has found out a bug, or, I mean, we saw this with hotel doors, right? Lots of things have been done in the hotel doors. Back when it was, I think Cody Brochus did the ONI locks a long time ago with like a little, like an Arduino that he made some code on. And then there were some kids, very recently, the Salto product, the SafeLock, which they called the unsafe lock when they did their DEFCON presentation. These are products

• 1:28:32Speaker 05

  where the researchers worked with some vendors, but like, the fix is some technician going around to like, every freaking door and like, installing a hardware flash. And hotels across the country, like, having to rotate out all of their keys, like their card stock that they have a big box of, like, no, you gotta throw that card stock away, we need new silicon inside those room keys. So, the lift is so much more to make an upgrade in the physical world, that a lot of vendors still want to play the No, no, no, no, don't, I don't, I didn't hear that. No, I don't want to know this problem.

• 1:29:07Speaker 06

  Right. Well, I mean, it, it, it's all, it's all money then. They don't, you know, it, it reminds me of sort of like a vehicle, you know, car recalls, vehicle recalls, you know, it's, it's a numbers game. It's like, how much money will this cost us? Not how many people will we save? Um, and so I imagine for, you know, for a, a physical security company, it's the same thing. It's like, we don't care if you can defeat our locks, as long as not everybody knows about it.

• 1:29:36Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:29:37Speaker 06

  And, and, you know, uh,

• 1:29:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's, it's, it's sad. It's scary. What, what are some of the things?

• 1:29:44Speaker 05

  It brings us back to, um,

• 1:29:46Speaker 06

  Go ahead. No, please. No, go ahead.

• 1:29:48Speaker 05

  Oh, it brings us back. I'm recalling Ed Norton. We mentioned Edward Norton in the movie The Score. Uh, he was also in, uh, the, the movie adaptation of, uh, what the Chuck Connax book, uh, Fight Club, right?

• 1:30:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:30:00Speaker 05

  There's that line, he's talking to someone on an airplane in the movie, and he says, I work for a major actuarial insurance firm and, and he talks, he's literally, he talks about the formula. He's like, if there's a certain model of car and the brakes fail and people can die, and a car wreck, we do the math of how many times it would happen. What's the average payout in a wrongful death lawsuit? And if it costs more than that, yeah, we're not going to recall the brakes.

• 1:30:22Speaker 06

  Right. Yeah. What, what are some of the things, you know, you, you've talked about some of these locks that are still out there in, in service and hotel doors? What are some of the things that you see, whether it's government buildings, uh, or commercial buildings, that, that aren't like a failing of the actual hardware, but that, that they do, like consistently, that defeats their own security? And then on the personal side, what do, what do you see people do with their own homes or whatever? That, that is also sort of this repeatable offense?

• 1:31:00Speaker 05

  Sure. Two very different sort of answers there. One thing that I see a lot of, and all of my colleagues would probably also say this, is sort of improper installation, or two different systems that are not ever tested together. For example, I will mention that I do a lot of things with fire suppression and fire and life safety. If you're ever in a building, especially if you're in hotels, if you're in a corporate commercial space, the next time you're passing through a door, an opening, and if it's a kind of a heavy door, look at the hinge side of the door frame and the door itself, the little butt side of the door, and you might see a metal or foil sticker.

• 1:31:44Speaker 05

  These are called door label, they're labeled door assemblies. These are for fire doors. A fire door, if it has a certain endurance rating of 45 minutes, one hour, two hours, the entire assembly is tested together. So you'll have, you name who's making the door, True Door Products, they make a whole door assembly, and then that gets sent off to a big testing lab, Warnock Hershey, or Intertec, or Underwriters Lab, something like that. They will test the entire door, and the door frame, and the hinge, all these components together. And they'll literally put it in a furnace, and they'll hit it with a hose stream test to see if it bows, or breaks, or pops open.

• 1:32:25Speaker 05

  And then it is blessed and approved, it gets a labeled rating, but that is how it is done this way. And you can make any modifications in the field. In fact, that's one of the things we inspect for and look for, are field modifications. Did somebody add access control to this door? Did they punch a hole in the door frame, and then there's a door sensor in there? Well, now you violated the integrity of the door frame. What are you doing? You have to use fire-rated parts to do that. So, we see a lot of security systems where that door lock that you might have bought was designed properly, worked well, went through all of its testing. And then you install that, but then somebody else comes along, some integrators installing an access control panel.

• 1:33:06Speaker 05

  And then they are, well, we're going to run wires and we'll put an access control electronic door latch. Well, now you've taken away the strike plate that came with the door lock. And you're using a different type of strike mechanism, electronic strike. And those two components were never tested together. So installation of disparate products that were never tested together. They will not perform the way they were designed to perform. We see that all the time. Because the world is a big, complicated place. I get it. You know, your door hardware parts guy is not the one manufacturing your access control card technology system. And the card system like NXP Semiconductor is not out there making door latches.

• 1:33:48Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:33:48Speaker 05

  So I understand the problems, but that's why we love it. We absolutely love it. When we've had people in RTA classes that aren't penetration team members. We've had integrators and installers come to our classes. And they, it opened their eyes like, oh my God, we do that all the time. Yeah, we've been undermining the security of the customers. You know, the customers insisting we want these parts because they look good. And you don't want to, no, don't change out the other thing that will have a nice satin finish. Keep that on the door, but then just change this part of the door. And now these guys come away from us like, man, I'm not going to do that anymore.

• 1:34:25Speaker 06

  So, so.

• 1:34:26Speaker 05

  And as far as what people do on a resident, go ahead, please.

• 1:34:29Speaker 06

  No, I was gonna say, so you're not, like you, you're, the example you gave was how it reduces its longevity in a fire setting. But you're also saying that when they come in and, you know, make a convenience change, like an electric locker, an access panel, whatever, it also gives you easier ways to defeat those systems.

• 1:34:55Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Because they're installing the one, they're like, well, I did my job correctly. But you don't realize you've installed it in a manner that it wasn't designed to be installed in. Or it was, now it's trying to interact with a different system that you've never tested it on. So we'll say, oh, wow, when you put those two, two, two great tastes, they don't taste great together. Because it's very vulnerable now that you bolted this onto that and it doesn't work the way you think it does.

• 1:35:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:35:20Jack Murphy?

  I have, I guess, one more question before we go on to viewer questions, which I'd like to ask, since Thief came out in 1981, what has made safe cracking more difficult? What has changed in this field in the last 40 years or so? That is making, whether it's our intelligence service professionals or people like you helping out, you know, the government, decommission safes. What are the big changes that have occurred over the last few decades?

• 1:35:50Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. It's interesting. It'll tie back into the previous. You had asked one question we almost might have missed. He said, what can people do at home? And it is the same answer as what has changed with safe cracking. And it's the same answer. It's a call all the way back to, I was saying, when we were younger, we had more free space to kind of play and roam. It's all electronic monitoring. Nowadays, you're not going to see beautiful, amazing graffiti on a subway car because kids in New York City in the 70s and 80s, I mean, they could sneak around in tunnels all night long. And there maybe would be one cop with a flashlight who might catch them. Nowadays, you try to go somewhere you don't belong,

• 1:36:33Speaker 05

  in Manhattan's MTA, you're going to be caught in five seconds. There's going to be electronic, there's cameras everywhere. Nowadays, what makes safe cracking hard? The idea of like, there was a famous robbery. I even, if I can find the article or any footage of it, there's literally like in all the, all the strong boxes are ripped out of this huge nest of safe deposit boxes inside of a vault in, I think it might have been in Brussels. It was at a big financial and precious goods emporium. And these, these people had literally concrete cord through the wall. And they spent the whole weekend raiding this entire vault. Because there was no electronic monitoring. There were no cameras. There was no alarms down

• 1:37:14Speaker 05

  there because who would ever get in nowadays electronics have gotten so cheap. Just put electronic monitoring on everything. Now, I'm not saying you can't defeat it. Right. It's different. I mean, we have a whole, we have a whole intrusion detection defeats class at RTA, right?

• 1:37:29Speaker 06

  Well, those gangs, those gangs are doing it now. The gangs are doing it now too with those portable man packs that they're getting off too or whatever. But, but anyway, but, but, but if it's there.

• 1:37:39Speaker 05

  But yes, monitoring yourself, like if I can go up to your safe over the weekend, if you're away on a fishing trip or something, and I can just spend all weekend in your house working on your safe, something's wrong.

• 1:37:49Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:37:50Speaker 05

  Like, come on.

• 1:37:51Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:37:51Speaker 05

  Use, use a half decent electronic home monitoring solution. Don't use some pile of poo like Simply Safe or something. Use something good. I like Ubiquity is a pretty good brand. I don't really like Nest and Ring very much. We're not going to get in bagging on or promoting any brands. I don't work for any of these companies. They don't, I don't have grudges of it. But using electronic monitoring and using it effectively, that's what makes everything so much harder.

• 1:38:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:38:17Speaker 05

  Electronic intrusion detection.

• 1:38:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's fascinating. So for, for people who might want to get into this field, right? Whether, because whether it's, you know, doing what you do, sort of more in the civilian market with, you know, obviously government stuff, or if they want to be a black bag guy or gal, you know, working for the, you know, FBI or the CIA or, you know, local PD or whatever, where do they start? What, what, what does that career path look like? There's not a military MOS for it, so.

• 1:38:49Speaker 05

  Right. That is true. That is true. Although, we're, I hope you don't think I'm sounding self-serving. I mentioned our trainings.

• 1:38:58Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:38:59Speaker 05

  We are, we are inches away from, I believe, being what is called COOL Program certified. The C O O L, the COOL Program is people who are, I think it's your last six months of service, or if you've recently exited a uniform, there is budget available through the DOD for people who want to train for a new career.

• 1:39:17Speaker 06

  That's fantastic.

• 1:39:18Speaker 05

  So, coming to us, or I think Lockmasters and Mark Bates MBA USA, I think they might also be COOL Program compliant. So, if you're not in uniform, if you're just in the civilian land, that's fine. But it really is coming, showing up and getting some base level of training. Not only to know what the landscape is, but a lot of times, and I have a whole blog post about this, I'll throw you that link as well. People like to bag on training. Training doesn't prove you actually know how to do a thing. I've seen more people with a certification that they didn't know squat. That's true.

• 1:40:00Speaker 05

  I've known many people with college degrees that aren't working in the field that they got a degree in. But you know what a certification, like what training and ultimately getting a certification represents to a lot of employers? It represents that you can sit the F down and just complete something.

• 1:40:22Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:40:22Speaker 05

  Which is a very hard thing for a lot of people out there to do. Yes, a certification doesn't necessarily mean you're the best person at what the piece of paper says you can do. But it means you can see a task through to completion.

• 1:40:38Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:40:39Speaker 05

  In our scatterbrained ADHD world, a lot of times employers today just want to know, are you a reliable person? Can you take a task and run with it and see it through? So I like to remind people of that when they say, man, is this certification going to actually help me out in my career? Yeah, it's much in the same way that you mentioned people in the service, right? A lot of times if an employer sees somebody, says, oh, this person is former Army, this person was Air Force. And they might give them, like, let's bring that resume to the top of the pile. It's not because the job they're going to do has anything to do with, you know, liberating some foreign vil. It has to do with the fact this person knows how to like, keep their head straight in

• 1:41:24Speaker 05

  pressure. This person knows how to execute on tasks. This person can self-manage. So giving employers a shorthand way of evaluating, yeah, I'm not going to be a drag in your organization. I kind of can tie my own shoes and get myself to Friday without you having to babysit me. That's valuable to what a lot, that's what a lot of companies want. They want to be able to quickly ascertain, are you a person that's going to bring value to my work?

• 1:41:51Speaker 06

  Right, right.

• 1:41:52Jack Murphy?

  Have you got the Patreon questions?

• 1:41:54Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And I apologize for those text rings. It's, I had taken my phone off airplane mode so I could look.

• 1:42:00Speaker 05

  I didn't, I didn't hear them at all. It's all right.

• 1:42:02Speaker 06

  Okay, great, great, great. Um, let's hear.

• 1:42:06Speaker 06

  Let me take my phone off.

• 1:42:11Speaker 05

  You getting these live? Have we been live streaming this whole time?

• 1:42:14Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:42:28Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:42:39Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:42:45Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:42:51Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:43:10Jack Murphy?

  For the Patreon folks.

• 1:43:13Speaker 06

  We live stream for Patreon.

• 1:43:14Jack Murphy?

  Twenty people watching.

• 1:43:16Speaker 06

  We used to do this live.

• 1:43:17Speaker 05

  I feel so bad that we were a little bit off kilter on getting the Zoom link working in the beginning.

• 1:43:22Jack Murphy?

  No, it's more my fault than anything.

• 1:43:24Speaker 06

  Okay, so Matt S., thank you very much. Really stoked to see Devi and Ollie on as a guest, huge in the pen testing community. Question for the guest. What is one tool that you see people include in their physical pen test kit that is overrated and should probably be left at home? And what is one tool you always bring with you on an engagement?

• 1:43:46Speaker 05

  Oh, I love the first question. I want to give more brain space to that because people buy so much stuff and keep adding it to their kit and adding it to their kit. And yeah, you know, you see the person like they have my daily pocket carry. Then that becomes their sort of sling bag. Then that becomes a backpack.

• 1:44:06Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:44:07Speaker 05

  Before you know it, you're like, it's not even daily carry anymore. What are you freaking doing? You're carrying a freaking rut bag. What would I say? You know what? I'm gonna go. Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm actually going to pull up briefly my own. You know, I'm gonna pull up Red Team Tools, which is my own catalog. And I'm going to look through my own catalog about something of like, this is the last thing you should possibly purchase from us. Ah, bump, okay, some of these are alright. It's probably, it might be an electronic tool.

• 1:44:43Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, you know what, I will say, it's a, it's a cool, it's a cool thing. But we have a couple of tools designed for pin pad hacking. Um, there are people that say you can use thermal cameras to like look at a pin pad right after somebody's entered a pin to see where their fingers were touching. We actually, I made a kit of UV powder. So you dust the pin and you come back later with a UV light and you can see where the pin pad was touched. Uh huh. I know, we sell them, like, I make these, like, my...

• 1:45:17Speaker 05

  That's Hollywood shit, man, come on. Like, I'm not saying it has no purpose, and in fact, if you have an electronic safe, that's interesting, because that's probably one code, or an alarm panel, that's probably one code that gets entered. But a door, an electronic keypad access door, where there's probably lots of people with different codes? Mm-hmm. That's not gonna help, come on, you're not gonna get there. But yeah, I, I have used it on an electronic safe in, in, in an executive's office once, because I was able to see which numbers they had touched and I came back a week later. And I didn't actually open the safe, we weren't off, but I said, is it, are these the digits of your combination? I didn't even tell him what the digits, the right order, he was freaked out that I actually knew it at all. But yeah, you don't need, you don't need that shit.

• 1:46:02Speaker 05

  Buy that after you bought everything else, but don't carry it in your daily carry. And the tool that everyone should have on them at all times? Yeah. Uh, two point answer, the best, the best two things available. Traveler hook, which is used for getting latches on doors, and what's called an underdoor tool. And they both have their pros and cons, I'll tell you, traveler hook, I got my, I got my wallet right here.

• 1:46:26Speaker 05

  In my wallet is a small skeletonized version of a traveler hook. It doesn't have a big chunky handle, uh, my buddy in Scotland makes these, he calls these the, the skeleton hook. But it's, this is just, you saw, I just pulled it out of my wallet and it just, I'll, I'll get doors open with this all the time. The other one that's hard, I mean, the underdoor tool, if anyone out there has seen an underdoor tool, they're devastatingly effective.

• 1:46:49Speaker 05

  Not easy to carry around. They're big. Now, I happen to have an underdoor tool as well. It's in my belt. Because I have a, I'm, I'm, there's a whole video, it's a tiny video I talked about where I literally found a belt manufacturer that would do exactly what I wanted and make a belt with a long cavity in it. I tried money belts, but they weren't, they weren't enough space. But yeah, we have the, we have underdoor tools that you can whip out of a belt. Is it as good as a big commercial underdoor tool? No. But if I could give, that's my gift to the world. I want to give everyone the ability to have an underdoor tool on them at all times if they want it. And I always travel with mine. Traveler hook and underdoor tool.

• 1:47:30Speaker 06

  For, for people who might not know what those are, can you give us a real quick, brief description of like what each does?

• 1:47:38Speaker 05

  Yep. Sure. So the traveler hook, as you, if anyone was watching the video part of this, it's a small tool with a tiny probe sticking off the end of it. It's a, it's a tiny right angle hook. If you want a really cheap version of them, you can grab some O-ring picks at your local Hazard Fart or Home Desk Spot or something like that. Those are going to be cheaper steel and they're going to be too thick. I think the shafts on those are too thick to, that's why if you want to get a nice version, you get like a proper traveler hook from us or from Lockmaster sells them. I think Mark Bates sells them. But yeah, you reach into a door jamb and you can manipulate the latch on the door.

• 1:48:19Speaker 05

  If the latch is not dead latching correctly, which is a very perennial problem, you can slip many doors open with a traveler hook. An underdoor tool, as it sounds, it reaches beneath a door, but the idea is modern building code, ADA code, fire code, all these various codes require egress is always allowed. Free egress from a building should never be denied or impeded.

• 1:48:44Speaker 05

  So you can have all the locks and access control you want on the outside of a door. If someone's inside trying to leave, single, I mean, there's rules, there's laws and rules around this. It's single motion, a single pushing or twisting motion on a door handle. There's actually, for ADA reasons, that poundage of pressure, how many foot pounds and inch pounds of so forth of torque and push. So it's very light pressure on the inside of a door shall cause the door to unlock on the operable part. And under door tool is a long rod that reaches up under the door, swings back towards the door, and you yank down on a cord and you're trying to hit the handle, the inside handle, but you yourself are on the outside of the door. And if you can trip that, what's called the operable part of the door, meaningfully it's

• 1:49:29Speaker 05

  a lever style handle, that will trigger the door to release. And if you have a long enough rod and a string on the end of it, and you know how to use it, you can pop open the vast majority of commercial doors in all the buildings that you travel through all the time.

• 1:49:44Speaker 06

  Sounds much easier to use than a wire coat hanger undone with 550 cord tied around the top of it.

• 1:49:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've seen people do it, though. You know, you make use of what you got. Supervise, adapt, and become.

• 1:49:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, for sure. And then the other question was, and thank you very much, one question for him, how was physical, how has physical pen testing evolved in the age of ubiquitous technical surveillance? Where the opportunity for traps backed by all kinds of sensors covering the entire spectrum are widely available in easy disguise? As a defender, I actually have the impression that it wouldn't be overly difficult to design a room designed to hold secrets that would be a nightmare to try to approach covertly. Is that notion particularly off base in your opinion and experience? And I'm also just curious to hear your opinion on how traps have evolved from the days of

• 1:50:38Speaker 06

  analog only solutions like matchstick in the doorway, you know, a piece of hair on, you know.

• 1:50:46Speaker 05

  Resting somewhere. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. And in fact, if you go to these major trade shows nowadays, for example, Milipole, the Military and Police Expo is one, ISC, the ISC Trade Show, the Security Controls Trade Shows, ISC West and ISC East. We're always at ISC West out here in Vegas. We're always out at ISC. You'll see loads of vendors. Now, I mean, AI is a hot topic, so they're shoving AI into everything. Sure, sure. But the idea is if you put enough camera coverage, just visual camera coverage, in a space, we are just about at the point where you can, in theory, give us a technological solution, a list of people who belong in the building. Right.

• 1:51:31Speaker 05

  You're giving away a lot of your biometric data to an employer, possibly a third party that the employer's hired, so take that as you will. And if there's a lot of lip, there's a lot of cost in installing all this, and there's probably a subscription plan involved. But there are, there are schools now, and I don't know how I feel about this, with kids and all of our kids' biometric data being saved by some, some firm that doesn't have their best interests at heart, probably. But there are schools where if anybody shows up in the school and they're not in like the face database, it throws an alert on a screen. And the resource officer or some teacher gets sent down that hallway and is like, hi, what are you doing here? Are you here to pick somebody up? How did you get in? It is absolutely a huge challenge. But that's only as good as the systems that are

• 1:52:15Speaker 05

  employing it. We've seen that AI can hallucinate. We've seen that some, I remember there were early days of facial recognition. Somebody, basically, they were, there was a man with a beard, and he wore long, like, shoulder duster earrings. So the fact that he was very mask-presenting, he had masculine facial features, but he was wearing something accessories that were very femme-coded, the system completely didn't know what to make of it. It broke on like the line, the first line of code, couldn't classify him by gender, and like the system just failed. So you're probably going to continue to see oddities and edge cases like that, which brings us back to the importance of testing. All these

• 1:52:58Speaker 05

  vendors out there should be engaging the hacker community and the researcher community, and inviting them to test these systems. Because it just takes one person to say, what if I wear my hat and I put a really, really freaking bright IR LED under the brim of the hat? And people did that to defeat facial recognition for years.

• 1:53:16Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:17Speaker 05

  You're walking along the street and it just, you don't, your, your naked eye just sees a person. But all the cameras just saw a huge white blob over the, it was just blew out the levels of the camera. The, the automatic gain control of the camera didn't work.

• 1:53:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it's fascinating stuff. I got a couple others here. Alex asks, how did you get to know Carl and the In Range Crew?

• 1:53:37Speaker 05

  Hell, yeah. I just saw Carl. I was just at High Desert Brutality. I just flew back from Idaho right like yesterday. So Carl also, Carl Crissarda, amazing person, wonderful human, smart guy. He is not just a firearms person. I mean, he came from the hacker world. He was in the tech world. He was a sysadmin and a network guy for years. That's how he made his bones.

• 1:54:01Speaker 05

  He was around, I mean, he'll tell stories back when Operation Sun Devil was a big hacker crackdown. And he witnessed all of that go down and he remembers running and securing systems at the time. So Carl was aware of DEFCON and he had heard of this thing that I ran with firearms. For years I ran, it was called the DEFCON shoot. Still exists. Other people run it now. I've turned it over to them after a decade. And he and a former colleague of his, they came out to the DEFCON shoot just to see what it was about. They said, hey, it's in Vegas. We're in Arizona. Let's just drive up. And he and I met at DEFCON and I instantly said, oh, you're like, you're a cool guy. You're into this stuff. I'm into what you're into. Let's keep talking. And we just kept coming to each other's events. Ever since then, he's come back to DEFCON several times.

• 1:54:44Speaker 05

  I've gone to his firearms events. Again, show notes, click down below. I'm sure you'll drop a link to In Range TV. It's one of the very, very few people in the firearm space that is not monetized. And they're not doing a lot of corporate shilling. Most influencers in the gun world, there's a lot of, there's a lot of money and, and pay for play reviews going on. And Carl's out there just in his own backyard in Arizona, doing mud tests with a bucket of water in the Arizona sand. And saying, yep, this gun failed. Sorry. Don't know what to tell you. Manufacturer sent it to me. I'm sending it to, they'll make a change. They'll send me another one. So he's a very honest, very upstanding guy. And yeah, we've been friends forever. I visit him, I visit him at his place. We travel places together. He's, he's one of my favorite people.

• 1:55:30Jack Murphy?

  One last one from M. Corbin. He asks, what is your favorite fiction author?

• 1:55:38Speaker 05

  Favorite fictional author? The easy answer would possibly be Douglas Adams.

• 1:55:43Speaker 06

  Writer of fiction, not actual fictional author.

• 1:55:46Speaker 05

  Right. Yes, yes, yes. Douglas Adams is going to be up there. I find that the Hitchhiker's Guide series and the lesser known works, the Dirk Chantley's Detective Agency and such. Dirk, you know, the Douglas Adams books, they have this wonderful lightheartedness to them. A spirit of adventure and positivity that's just full of warmth. The world is a lesser place without Douglas Adams around. My wife would mention, you know, things like Pratchett and other sci-fi authors that she, you know, she's a much bigger fan of and tries to get me involved. I tried to watch Dune recently. I tried to, you know, I've watched The Lord of the Rings with her.

• 1:56:27Speaker 05

  I understand Tolkien's amazing world building, but there's something about the lightheartedness and the smile that I will reread Adams's work to this day. Yeah. I used to really love Richard Morgan, the British author, Richard Morgan, British, Scottish, British, Richard Morgan wrote the Altered Carbon series.

• 1:56:45Speaker 06

  No, yeah.

• 1:56:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. Not, not the most progressive views on some issues that are very dear to people in my life. I have a trans daughter, so like, no, don't, don't, don't promote Richard Morgan as much anymore. I think Douglas Adams would have been fine with her though. So, yeah, Douglas Adams gets my vote.

• 1:57:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:57:02Jack Murphy?

  And last thing, I guess, Deviant, I don't know, Dave, do you have anything before we let Deviant plug his company and website?

• 1:57:13Speaker 06

  Not at all. Would just like to remind you, Deviant, like, when we say we're out, if you don't mind hanging out. And if you're watching this recorded, you could be watching this live if you're a Patreon subscriber. And we're going to do a Team House After Dark. Just a fun little story or whatever for our Patreon subscribers afterwards. But please, go ahead, Jack.

• 1:57:38Jack Murphy?

  So, Deviant, tell people out there where they can go to procure your services if they want you to break into their home, place of employment, bust open a safe. Tell them about the classes that you offer and where they can find you guys.

• 1:57:56Speaker 05

  Sure. So yes, on the internet, I am Deviant Olaf, spelled not at all like it sounds. So yeah, you'll see my name in the episode, but I'm on all of the things as my username. So YouTube, I'm not on Twitter. No one's on Twitter anymore, but you know, Blue Sky, Mastodon, Instagram, Reddit, I have a GitHub. But the professional side of things, my one company is called The Core Group. So Babak and I have been running The Core Group since 2010. We're at thecoregroup.net. That's if you want us to break in. If you want to learn how to break in, it's going to be Red Team Alliance. So redteamalliance.com. I'm literally sitting, the reason I'm in such a bare weird white box. We got the keys

• 1:58:41Speaker 05

  yesterday morning to our new building in Vegas. We're all out here moving in. So all the teams downstairs, the moving trucks have been rolling all day. Hopefully you haven't heard the garage doors rolling up and down outside. Yeah, so redteamalliance.com. Our full training calendar is online. We have our Vegas facility. We have our facility in Virginia near DC. We have classes in Australia and Europe as well. If you want to buy stuff, you know, I never like mentioning our retail catalog. I feel like such a shill. It's not my, I won't say it on my channels, on social media, but Red Team Tools, all the equipment and gear that I make and design and have changed over the years. Here's a fun one. This was a product that literally existed and no longer does. And I bring

• 1:59:23Speaker 05

  things back from the dead. So we have these kind of in people's kits in the field. You just pop them out. This is a fence climber. You stick it through a fence, you drop it and it hangs, and you can go up one side, down the other. You've got a couple of these in your pocket, and you know, you name however high the fences are, you're up and over in no time, even my fat ass. So that's all on redteamtools.com. But yeah, The Core Group and Red Team Alliance are the most useful.

• 1:59:50Speaker 06

  Fantastic. I was going to say that you always need somebody like Jack to go over first, though, to lay down on the concertina at the top. So then you go up, climb over them.

• 1:59:59Jack Murphy?

  Even privates in the army have a use.

• 2:00:01Speaker 05

  It's hard to do all that nowadays. I mean, we have friends at Magnusphere who the fence sensor technology, the shake sensors are getting really subtle. And I even, I did an experiment where I said, I wonder if it would detect going over the fence. I bet it will. And the guy was like, it's going to detect you putting it on the fence. And sure enough, yeah, we watched, you can watch the little line go up on their graph. He's like, yeah, just touching the fence was enough. You're not getting it for that.

• 2:00:24Speaker 06

  That's amazing. That's amazing. Um, yeah, so definitely, uh, check out Deviant, uh, the classes, the company, and, and the videos, like, everything on YouTube is just fantastic. So I highly recommend people track you down and watch all of that.

• 2:00:40Jack Murphy?

  Absolutely.

• 2:00:42Speaker 05

  A lot of, I mean, my, my channel now must, I've been on YouTube since 2009. There's a lot of crap on there, but the long, I find a lot of people like the long form stuff. So my lectures, when I've actually given presentations, there's maybe a dozen or more hour long videos on my channel. That's all my professional talks.

• 2:00:58Speaker 06

  And I think it's a lot of, you know, you talked in the beginning about, you know, kids not having space anymore. And like, I remember when I was maybe like in junior high, like breaking into a school over the summer, like going in through the top, and we weren't destroying anything. We weren't stealing anything. It was just the thrill of being able to get in, right? And you're in and like, you're in. Um, and, and you still, like a lot of your videos, you still have that thrill of discovery. Like when you're, when you're presented with a new challenge, a new technology, a new type of door sensor, you know, um, you know, like, because it has to open from one side and putting gas or putting, blowing up a balloon or whatever, on the other side of the door. Like,

• 2:01:40Speaker 06

  there's still a lot of that, I don't know, like that, that sense, that childlike sense of exploration, like, oh, let's, let's, here's a new puzzle, let's solve it.

• 2:01:52Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 2:01:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:01:53Jack Murphy?

  All right, guys. Uh, so we will see all of you next time. Uh, thank you for joining us. Thank you, Deviant. And you can find all the links down in the description, uh, that we mentioned on the show. And, uh, for our Patreon subscribers, stick around because there's a little bit more.

• 2:02:10Speaker 06

  It's gonna get spicy.

• 2:02:12Jack Murphy?

  All right, I'm gonna leave it running. Dee can cut the film.

• 2:02:16Speaker 06

  Oh, right, right. Cause that's right.

• 2:02:18Jack Murphy?

  We can roll right into it.

• 2:02:18Speaker 06

  That's right. That's right. Cause we're not live for anybody but Patreon.

• 2:02:25Speaker 06

  Do you have, I know I kind of put you on the spot to you, but we're still rolling. We're still live to the Patreon, but do you, um, do you have some?

• 2:02:33Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:02:48Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to, I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:02:59Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 2:03:04Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:03:10Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:03:30Speaker 06

  Anything on mind?

• 2:03:32Speaker 06

  A story or a vignette or anything?

• 2:03:36Speaker 05

  Oh, a story from, from my end?

• 2:03:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, and like I said, it can be, you know, it could be something that, a time it went bad, a time it went really good, a time something weird happened. Yeah, weirdest thing that happened during.

• 2:03:50Speaker 05

  I mean, there's a story I've told once or twice, but my, one of my favorite jobs was a job we completely had no success. And it was a small company in the, in the middle of America. It was a middle America Nowheresville. And some people say, oh, you know, these podunk town, you're going to put one over on those rubes. I mean, no one really says something that rude, but there is, there's a certain kind of thinking that says, well, small companies, you know, these people, they're not, they're not going to be, have sophisticated security systems. And they didn't, they didn't have a lot of big budget. They didn't have all the whiz bang stuff that you see at the trade shows. What they had was a dedicated team of staff, many of whom had worked there for decades.

• 2:04:32Speaker 05

  And they just cared. They had emotional investment in what they were doing. This was, it was an agribusiness, essentially. So they were American food supply, right? Like, this is, it's, I would consider critical to our nation's health and well-being. I was very hopeful that their security would be robust, but it wasn't the way I wasn't expecting. We came out there, cased the joint, did all our usual recon, had our cover stories. We said, "All right, let's find the local utility companies in town." We made badges, outfits, you name it, in case we were on-site getting questioned. So we were, you know, because being a utility company worker, you can kind of be on the buildings, around the grounds,

• 2:05:12Speaker 05

  and no one, "Oh, that guy's doing the, he's checking out, he's, you're spray painting some marks in the ground a little bit." So we did all this research. We found a few doors that were a little bit of jar. And we had some idea, "All right, we come up with an attack chain. We're going to come in on Sunday morning. Everyone's at church watching football." We were on-site, walking around the premises, and again, looking like technicians, right? We were in this building, there's a multi-building complex. I remember we were in a building for maybe half an hour, 45 minutes tops. And somebody said on our team, say, "Hey, there's a car in the parking lot that wasn't there earlier." We look out, sure enough, yeah, there's a car. What's that? And we later said, "Do you see, who's that guy?"

• 2:05:56Speaker 05

  Looking at, "There's a guy going from building to, clearly going building to building. Not a security guard, just a, just a dude whose badge worked." I said, "That's freaking weird." And later, he came and found it. He found us in one of the buildings, in one of the offices. And he said, "Hey, you know, what are you guys doing in here?" Again, we're, so we're from such and such telecom. We were sent here. We did some work at your Wyoming office. He said, "We're here at the Kentucky office now." I said, "No, I would have heard about that. Who sent you from Wyoming?" We knew Nate. We said, "Oh, well, Keith is the plant manager over there. He does the IT infrastructure." "No, I don't know if Keith would, I could call Keith and find out." This guy was having none of it. And eventually, we had to, we had to produce, you know, always carrying a letter that says,

• 2:06:39Speaker 05

  "Look, we were hired by this guy. The CEO knows we're here. The owner knows we're here." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, there, there was an odor to this situation. I didn't like it." He said, "Well, are you working today, sir?" He said, "No, I was driving through town." He was literally driving down Main Street. He looked at the parking lot and just driving by the buildings, he saw one of our team in the parking lot. He said, "I don't recognize that guy." He did a K-turn, came back up Main Street, and he said, "I saw your guy badge into a building." And I said, "I still, I don't like this." I said, "Wait a minute. You saw, on your freaking day off, a person badge in with a working badge?" And you still didn't, he's like, "No, I didn't like it. Something didn't like, something didn't feel right."

• 2:07:24Speaker 05

  I know companies where you could walk in and say, "Hi, I'm here to steal everything." And the employees would say, "Yeah, F this company. They don't care about me anyway."

• 2:07:33Speaker 06

  Right, right.

• 2:07:34Speaker 05

  They don't care. They don't give a crap. But this guy, I mean, he had been working there for probably thirty, forty years.

• 2:07:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:07:40Speaker 05

  He knew, like, he knew the owners. They went bowling and so, he's like, "No, he just had emotional investment, as did everyone at this company." We were on our walk-through the day after, it was on Monday, escorted around. And at one point, our escort, you know, the, the co-owner of the company, his son, uh, he left us alone to get something. And a woman was like, "What are you doing in this wing of the building?" We said, "Oh, you know, Frank is letting us..." She's like, "Frank's not here. Where's Frank? You don't belong here. Come to the front with me right now." And she had just been working there for, you know, she had been at the same desk for the same many decades. Uh, there's a real lesson there. And investing in your people, I don't just mean give pizza Fridays.

• 2:08:18Speaker 06

  Right.

• 2:08:18Speaker 05

  I mean, actually give real raises. Take a real interest. Do people, are people satisfied with their job? Do they care about what you're doing? That's what saved this company from everything we tried to do to them.

• 2:08:30Speaker 06

  Kid, I, I want to ask, you know, I don't want to keep you too long, but I want to ask either for a time you were horrified by how easy something important was that shouldn't have been easy, or about the biggest ass-chewing you ever saw because something was easy.

• 2:08:51Speaker 05

  I was really sad to learn of, this was a biomedical research facility. And ultimately, they had spent a to- I mean, they, they had money coming out their ears, right? They had spent so much money on all their security systems, but they didn't invest in a decent, like, badge credential technology. They were still using the most outmoded, outdated HID PROX credentials, which had been around, you know, thirty years at this point, more than that, forty years probably at this point, the original HID PROX. And it's the most clonable badge imaginable. We ultimately, it was hard to clone badges.

• 2:09:35Speaker 05

  We couldn't really get to the employees, they, they weren't around, it was a very buttoned up, very tight building. But one of our staff went in, one of our team went in and interacted with the guards in the front lobby. And he was just BSing with them. And there's, again, we talk about this in training, we had a long-range reader in a laptop bag, and if you got close enough to someone's badge, you could grab it, you could, because there's no, there's no encryption on the badges, you just had to brush past the badge. And he was able to get past one of the guards, and there's a longer version of the story that I've told elsewhere, but eventually, he gets near a guard, gets the guy's badge, and then we, we just cloned it instantly, we just got in, and then we came in the next

• 2:10:16Speaker 05

  night, midnight shift, there was a big movie premiere, it was like the new Star Wars that was coming out, like, the, the episode Phantom Menace or whatever was coming out, a long time ago, the story. But we were able to use these, we just got in everywhere at that point. And the lesson, we, we later learned, and again, it goes to how it's not always your fault, it's not always you can control the badges. So this building that they were renting was owned by a huge property management company, and they insisted, like, here's the badges for the building, this is the badge system.

• 2:10:48Speaker 11

  Right.

• 2:10:49Speaker 05

  Now, they had other badges they could have used, but the, the property management company made it such a pain in the ass, they just said, no, we're just gonna go with the badges, they, fine, we're not gonna go through all the legal hoops and give you copies of badges. So they were locked in by some weird rental agreement. But the sad part is that all that entire guard crew, I won't say got fired, they still had jobs, but they lost that contract. Like the guards were all cycled out. And that was part of the executives, I can't believe the guards let you get close to them. I said, come on, man, who's gonna think that somebody, you know, we had a guy who knew how to talk. I said, if you had kept those guards, that would be trial by fire for them. That would, they would be way more hardened against this kind of attack and they'd be way more poised

• 2:11:32Speaker 05

  to say, hey, I'm not going to keep my badge right in front of me while it's visible. And, you know, I think it was the wrong move. I think they should, that's the, you want the person who got caught in a stumble, if they're willing to learn from it and recover and get better.

• 2:11:45Speaker 06

  Especially if they didn't even know that technology existed. Like they're, they're security guards, right? They're, they're not like FBI, they're not FBI, you know, it's, yeah, it's unfortunate. Deven, thank you. Thank you very much. We really, we appreciate you being with us tonight. It's a great time.

• 2:12:02Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week, it's going to come into your inbox, and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House, and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy, and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email, it'll slide into your inbox, and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week.

• 2:12:43Speaker 06

  It's really good. I'm checking it out.

• 2:12:46Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Go there and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website, and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate.

• 2:13:06Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:13:21Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:13:32Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:13:37Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:13:43Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:14:03Jack Murphy?

  Share your support and hope you'll consider signing up.

• 2:14:08Jack Murphy?

  The link.

• 2:14:09Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:14:23Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:14:34Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:14:40Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:14:45Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:15:05Jack Murphy?

  We'll also be down in the description if you're looking for it there.

• 2:15:08Speaker 06

  And that's teamhousepodcast.kit, K-I-T.

• 2:15:13Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:15:28Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:15:39Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:15:44Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:15:50Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:16:10Speaker 06

  GoIndiAtTango.com backslash join.

• 2:16:17Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:16:32Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:16:43Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:16:48Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:16:54Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:17:21Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:17:35Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:17:46Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:17:51Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:17:57Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:18:23Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:18:38Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:18:48Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:18:54Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:19:00Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:19:29Speaker 01

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 2:19:42Speaker 02

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair

• 2:20:27Speaker 02

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:20:30Speaker 12

  Relax and get ready for bed with Dr. Teal's magnesium spray. Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt. Dr. Teal's magnesium spray is designed to help you unwind and get in a nighttime state of mind. Dr. Teal's magnesium spray is wellness you can feel, and you can find it in your local bath aisle. Dr. Teal's. Yep, you needed that.

• 2:20:58Speaker 13

  Monday night brings one more big matchup to settle into. And when every play matters, the last thing you want to do is step away to figure out dinner. That's where DiGiorno comes in. Get a DiGiorno pizza ready before kickoff, then enjoy restaurant-quality taste fresh from your own oven while you stay locked into every play. Stock up on DiGiorno over the weekend so when Monday night rolls around, the only thing you sweat is the game. Shop now at the link in the episode description. It's not delivery, it's DiGiorno.