Friction-maxxing: does more effort = more value?

Mental map or GPS? Delivery or cooking at home? Scrolling or reading? In a world of convenience, there are plenty of tools that make our lives easier. But is there a benefit to doing things the hard way? Enter: friction-maxxing, the act of deliberately choosing slower, analogue options, in order to give daily routines more meaning, purpose and value. So how does doing things the hard way help us? And isn't life difficult enough — who needs MORE friction? Guests: Kathryn Jezer-MortonWriter and essayist Michael InzlichtProfessor of Psychology, University of Toronto Credits: Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Roi HubermanTo explore more great episodes from the award-winning psychology podcast All in the Mind with host Sana Qadar, download the ABC Listen app (Australia) or search 'ABC All in the Mind podcast' wherever you get your podcasts. There you'll find more episodes on mental health, trauma, attachment theory, wellness hacks, and family relationships. You'll also hear interviews with experts like Esther Perel, Billy Garvey and Ethan Kross. All in the Mind is created for ABC's Radio National by specialist journalists and reporters at the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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  We're looking at a small portable computer called the IBM 5100. It's helping a lot of different people do their work more productively. It spans the globe like a superhighway. It is called internet. And we are calling it iPhone.

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  It is the next big thing. It's called Twitter. Amazon has today announced a free same-day delivery service. OpenAI has launched its newest version of ChatGPT.

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  Technological change has been part of humanity's story from the very start. At first it was fire and the wheel, then windmills and steam trains. An industrial revolution happened, then telephones, television, space lights, smartphones and AI. Tech has undoubtedly made our lives better in a million different ways. I mean, global life expectancy didn't rise above the age of 30 until the late 1800s. But as technology intervenes in how we socialise, how we shop, how we write and think, some people fear things are getting a little too easy.

• 1:55Speaker 07

  This is the stuff of human experience. This is like the basis for feeling alive. It's like rubbing up against an experience or a feeling and being like, I don't love this. Or like, ooh, this is kind of hard. Real humans make demands on us. Real humans require turn-taking and caring for them as they care for you. We are embodied. We probably should be interacting with other embodied creatures too.

• 2:23Sana Qadar?

  From ABC Radio National, this is All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar. Today, friction maxing, a term that's been circling on social media and in pop culture this past year. It involves choosing the more difficult or inconvenient way of doing something as an act of pushing back against modern technology and convenience culture.

• 2:43Speaker 07

  I just think it was a way of talking about resisting the kind of ubiquity of technology that wasn't just this thing of like, throw your phone into the ocean.

• 2:53Sana Qadar?

  And we'll figure out why humans, some of the time at least, get a lot of meaning from effort.

• 2:58Speaker 07

  Among those people who have an appetite for work, some of them actually derive, you know, significant meaning and pleasure from work. You can think of them as like joyful workers.

• 3:14Sana Qadar?

  So you're in Montreal, are you?

• 3:16Speaker 07

  Well, I live in Montreal. Right now I'm just south of the border in Vermont, so I'm at my cottage.

• 3:23Sana Qadar?

  Catherine Jaser Morton is a Canadian writer and essayist. Her wheelhouse is modern life and relationships. And she wrote an essay earlier this year in The Cut, which is an online women's magazine, where she coined the term friction maxing. And I want to know, at what point did you start to realise that, you know, technology was kind of eliminating a bit too much friction from your life? Like, when did you realise that was a problem?

• 3:46Speaker 07

  Well, I think it was a creeping realisation, but it hasn't been that long that I've been feeling it. I would say the last two or three years, but then really suddenly maybe in the last, you know, year.

• 4:00Sana Qadar?

  And what sort of tipped you off? Like, what were you thinking, hmm, this is not, this is not actually a good thing?

• 4:05Speaker 07

  I mean, I teach college in Montreal, and so I was dealing with the kind of sudden impact of AI. And I teach the humanities. So the whole point of my classroom is sharing ideas, working through ideas, having conversations that are sometimes uncomfortable or at the very least demanding of everyone in the room. And I found that people were less and less comfortable or even like willing to participate in these kinds of exercises. And I think it was because they were becoming more and more accustomed to just like the ability to summarise. If I gave them a reading, they would turn it into a podcast and listen to it and it would be a 10-minute thing.

• 4:47Sana Qadar?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 4:48Speaker 07

  And so like in the classroom, when I was like, okay, guys, give me what you got. Now we're talking. It was like a drop off a cliff where just people didn't, they were like, why would I do this? What's the point of this? Isn't there a faster way to the destination of having completed this exercise? And I was like, no, the whole exercise is the conversation. Like, that's philosophy, but it's also just being a human. And I think that was really where it all started for me.

• 5:24Sana Qadar?

  That's fascinating. Like, the talking and discussing is an inconvenience now to a certain generation?

• 5:31Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. Or just like an unrealistic demand. And, you know, I hate to throw my students out of the bus because they really are amazing and I'm like privileged to be able to hang out with young people, like for my job, I love it very much. But I think they were just like in the thrall of this new technology. I don't honestly hold it against them, but I was like, guys, like, this is a mess.

• 5:53Sana Qadar?

  And then in your own life, did you start to think about like where you'd lost friction and whether that was an issue?

• 5:59Speaker 07

  Totally. And then I was like, oh, my family, I have two children there, you know, one's a teenager, one's almost a teenager. Like, we're always busy after work and we're doing this and that, and everyone has stuff going on. And it's like, oh, let's just order dinner. Let's just eat in the car. It's like there was this kind of slurrification of life. Like, time was becoming a slurry where there was no time that was designated for anything because there was so much convenience that was allowing us to just kind of do anything anytime. So I was perceiving a connection between my work life and my home life in this kind of way that it was being changed by technologies of convenience.

• 6:47Sana Qadar?

  Alongside this slurrification of time, Catherine also argues that our urge to seek out and escape from everyday life is stronger than ever.

• 6:57Speaker 07

  Human beings have an urge to escape tedium. So, you know, of course we love our phones, but we've always escaped in different ways. You know, watching movies, listening to the radio. We want to get away. We want to avoid the hard thing. And now it's like everything in life is being kind of labelled as the hard thing from which we can escape. And we're like unthinkingly just being like, oh, okay, sure, yeah. I don't want to have to talk to people. I'm just going to text. Like, one of my great shortcomings as a friend is that I'm a terrible phone chatter. So I'm texting, I'm texting, I'm texting.

• 7:39Speaker 07

  And it's like, we could have a really great catch-up over the phone and I know I'm not alone.

• 7:45Sana Qadar?

  Texting is one example, but there are so many others. AI summarising your emails, food delivery to your door, online shopping with next-day delivery.

• 7:55Speaker 07

  Grocery delivery, whereas like grocery shopping for me has in the, in the past been like a really important ritual where like I see people and I even have like mental space to myself away from my family. But now it's like, okay, let's just have everything delivered. I would say even something like Google Maps. I'm from the city that I live in and yet I will put the destination in my Apple CarPlay when I'm going someplace where I know how to get there. And it's like, it feels as though our mental maps are shrinking because we don't have to rely on them.

• 8:32Sana Qadar?

  Catherine is right. It doesn't just feel like that. There is actually some experimental evidence supporting this idea of a shrinking mental map. A study by Canadian researchers from 2020 found people who rely on GPS more often to navigate have poor spatial memory, which is our internal map of our surroundings. The hippocampus is the part of the brain that's responsible for this kind of memory. And if you listen to our recent episode on AI and whether AI is eroding our creativity and cognition, this dynamic will sound familiar. It's essentially cognitive offloading. But whether this particular loss, the loss of spatial memory, is actually bad for the brain or not, hasn't been shown in research.

• 9:17Sana Qadar?

  What we can say is that it is an adaptation to modern technology that is concretely changing the way our brain works. And for Catherine at least, some of these changes are a worrying sign.

• 9:31Sana Qadar?

  What is so bad about all this friction disappearing from our lives? Because there's a lot of people who would be like, life is hard. Sorry if I want it to be easier in some respects. Like, why is that a bad thing?

• 9:42Speaker 07

  So I think that one of the really interesting questions that are kind of new total reliance on AI. Or our future reliance AI brings up is what is the point of doing anything ever? This is like one of the fundamental philosophical engagements that humans have always been doing. What's the point of talking to people? What's the point of going to the grocery store? What's the point of reading a book?

• 10:09Sana Qadar?

  What's the point of writing anything?

• 10:11Speaker 07

  Right, what's the point of writing? Exactly. What's the point of making music? If I can summon all of it, if I can conjure it all, or I can get, you know, to the end more quickly. So I think that friction is a way to start thinking about what the point of literally anything is. This is the stuff of human experience. This is like the basis for feeling alive. It's like rubbing up against an experience or a feeling and being like, I don't love this. Or like, oh, this is kind of hard. And then, oh, I have to figure it out. I have to get around it. And then I have, you know, gone through something for better or for worse.

• 10:50Sana Qadar?

  And also, like, I guess when you eliminate all that friction and everything's convenient and you don't have to do anything, what are you freeing up all that time to do? If you don't need to do anything, like, are you just gonna scroll? What are you gonna do?

• 11:03Speaker 07

  This is really my question.

• 11:04Sana Qadar?

  Yeah.

• 11:05Speaker 07

  And there is a part of me, like, my kind of conspiratorial self that's like, they just want us to be scrolling.

• 11:12Sana Qadar?

  I am right there with you on that conspiracy. Yes, they want us alone in our rooms, isolated, scrolling.

• 11:18Speaker 07

  It's a horrifying vision. And yet I'm like, it feels as though we're kind of heading in that direction.

• 11:26Sana Qadar?

  It was in response to all of this that Catherine coined the term friction maxing in an article for The Cut. Catherine didn't think much of it at the time. It was sort of just another column for her. And she published it just before heading out the door on holidays. But it struck a chord. Have you ever heard about the term friction maxing?

• 11:45Speaker 07

  What is friction maxing? In today's society, everything is about efficiency. I am absolutely obsessed with this concept, friction maxing in this AI world. I just think it was a way of talking about resisting the kind of ubiquity of technology that wasn't just this thing of like, throw your phone into the ocean.

• 12:03Sana Qadar?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 07

  Like, I think that people want an affirmative approach or like a way of doing something instead of taking things away. So I'm like, okay, let's think in terms of friction and like places and experiences where that feels good.

• 12:18Sana Qadar?

  And run me some examples of how one can friction max and how you have friction maxed.

• 12:24Speaker 07

  Well, so the example that I wrote about is that I do think it's really hard to teach little kids to love reading in our current kind of environment where iPads and whatever, all the different things are present. Because reading is a little bit hard and it takes a little bit of time to start enjoying it before you really start enjoying it. Like, there is a period when you're young where you're like, this isn't that fun. And then suddenly it becomes fun. So for me, I took a road trip with my family where the kids were little. We didn't have iPads because we couldn't afford them. The van kept breaking down. It was a 10-day road trip. It was actually kind of a nightmare. But what happened was the kids learned to read.

• 13:05Sana Qadar?

  Right.

• 13:06Speaker 07

  Because they were in the back of the van and they were like, this is so stressful. Mom and dad are really, you know, they seem upset. Let's escape from reality with these books that mom and dad have thrown back here. And so for me, I honestly don't know if my kids would have become people who loved reading if I hadn't put them through that period of like really extreme friction.

• 13:26Sana Qadar?

  Yeah, yeah, you needed that like kind of separation of time and place to make that happen.

• 13:30Speaker 07

  Yeah, and like, I don't know, it's not feasible to expect everyday people to like conjure these totally crazy scenarios where the kids are like mildly traumatized and like learn how to read. But for me, I was like, wow, that was what it took.

• 13:48Sana Qadar?

  It is interesting because like, obviously, nothing good happens without struggle. And like every story ever told involves struggle. Learning a new skill always involves struggle. Like, to struggle is to be human. And to get to the other side is what it is to feel alive and like you've learned and you've grown. I get all of that.

• 14:09Sana Qadar?

  I guess I also do understand when people are like, why do I need to struggle with my groceries? Like, where's the deep human benefit in that?

• 14:17Speaker 07

  Yes, totally. And I want to say like, the big movie out right now is The Odyssey.

• 14:24Sana Qadar?

  Yeah, exactly what I'm thinking of, yep. Disclaimer, it has been a couple of months since I first spoke to Catherine. But at the time, The Odyssey was the big film that was out.

• 14:32Speaker 07

  Which is like, a story about struggle. And also, like, for what purpose? I mean, I know he-

• 14:40Sana Qadar?

  To get home?

• 14:41Speaker 07

  He's being compelled and, you know, it's a mythic story. But one thing that I will say, actually, I'm thinking about this in the response to friction maxing, there was this really thoroughgoing kind of engagement with optimization. And this idea that friction is important for us to get better. And so we should embrace it for the sake of self-improvement. Like, I'll be a better worker, I'll be richer, I'll be healthier, I'll be happier if I embrace friction into my life. And I don't really think that's the point at all.

• 15:11Sana Qadar?

  Okay.

• 15:11Speaker 07

  That's not what I meant. That's never what I had in mind. I really had in mind more this idea of like, you're a human, you have capacity. This capacity is like for love and interiority and insight. And like, your mind is something that can be expanded or not. And this is something that can be part of that expansion. And it's not about like becoming a better version of you. It's just like, this is how humans try to flourish.

• 15:42Sana Qadar?

  From ABC Radio National, you're listening to All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar. Today, friction maxing, intentionally choosing the uncomfortable path in order to stay in touch with your humanity. And while the term is new, some of the ideas under the hood aren't.

• 16:07Speaker 07

  Effort is uniformly seen in pretty much every discipline, especially economics and cognitive neuroscience, as a cost.

• 16:14Sana Qadar?

  Michael Inslicht is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. A lot of his research focuses on effort, why we avoid it or seek it out, and how it creates meaning in our lives.

• 16:27Speaker 07

  By cost, I mean as something that might be emotionally negative. So we don't like the way it feels, we avoid it if we can. And if we do engage it, it's unpleasant and we'd rather avoid the experience. So economists certainly treat this this way. And to some extent, they're right, because people will pay money so that others will engage in effort for them. So to some extent, they're correct.

• 16:52Sana Qadar?

  In psychology, this is sometimes called the law of least effort or the law of least work.

• 16:57Speaker 07

  And it essentially suggests that all else being equal, and you know, that's an important caveat, all else being equal, every organism that's ever been tested, including humans, will, if all else is equal, will choose to exert less effort rather than more effort for the same reward.

• 17:15Sana Qadar?

  This makes sense, it's kind of logical, but it doesn't always hold true. Think about it for a moment. Take marathons as an example. They are a 42-kilometer run, it's a completely optional activity, and you have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for the privilege. I would never do one, but more than a million people do each year. Michael Inslicht has run experiments testing why we might exert effort like this. Some of it's reward in a roundabout kind of way. You get social status or accolades for being a marathon finisher. But there's also more intrinsic motivations.

• 17:53Speaker 07

  First is, we get feelings of competence and mastery. And that only happens via exerting effort. So if you're not actually pushed to your limits, it's hard to know where you stand vis-à-vis others or vis-à-vis yourself, you know, your past self, let's say. So it allows you to test yourself, to see, you know, where you stand. And humanistic psychologists have suggested that competence is one of the core needs that, you know, all humans strive for. So it allows us for feelings of competence.

• 18:27Sana Qadar?

  This appetite for effort, though, varies based on your personality.

• 18:32Speaker 07

  According to, well, you know, decades of research in personality psychology, we have come to the conclusion that there universally, perhaps even in other species, there are five dimensions of personality.

• 18:44Sana Qadar?

  We have covered these before on the show. They're called the big five personality traits. Sometimes they're known by the acronym OCEAN, but for Michael.

• 18:53Speaker 07

  I'm Canadian, so the acronym I like is CANO.

• 18:56Sana Qadar?

  I'm definitely stealing that.

• 18:57Speaker 07

  C is for conscientiousness, you know, to the extent to which you're industrious, hardworking. A is for agreeableness, empathy, politeness.

• 19:05Sana Qadar?

  Then N is neuroticism. O is open-mindedness. And E is extroversion.

• 19:11Speaker 07

  So C is that first one, conscientiousness. And there's lots of research suggesting that people who are conscientious have an appetite for work. They have an appetite for effort. And what we have found is that among those people who have an appetite for work, some of them actually derive, you know, significant meaning and pleasure from work. You can think of them as like joyful workers, people who love getting up in the morning to exert themselves, to push themselves, and it kind of provides meaning, structure to their lives. So there clearly are individual differences. And I think to some extent, some of these individual differences might explain, for example, why a significant

• 19:54Speaker 07

  portion of the population, certainly in the West, in Canada, US, I'm sure Australia is very similar, that after they retire, they have a loss of purpose, loss of meaning, or that they refuse to retire.

• 20:08Sana Qadar?

  This appetite for effort even extends to our leisure time. There's some evidence that effortful activities, like learning an instrument instead of watching a TV show, is linked to a greater sense of meaning in a person's life.

• 20:22Speaker 07

  Oftentimes, you know, they associate it with, you know, physical exertion. So working outdoors, for example, working in sports, for example. But effort is not only physical, it's also cognitive, it's also mental. And what we found was that leisure activities that are effortful are associated not only with pleasure, they're also associated with meaning. So again, you know, volunteering could be something that is sometimes difficult. You might not always want to be doing it. You push yourself. Of course, well, there's also a pro-social aspect, but even without that, the fact that it's effortful will contribute to your own well-being. And well, you know, typically, what we have found is that tasks

• 21:07Speaker 07

  that are effortful, yes, they're meaningful, but we don't derive pleasure from them necessarily. We think they're meaningful, but they're not so much fun. Leisure, you know, that association is not there. So we can offer like some advice to people, you know, when you are no longer working, whether it be on holiday or retiring, make sure your leisure activity involves some effort.

• 21:31Sana Qadar?

  Michael says he doesn't always consciously apply this advice in his own life, but he does love to keep busy.

• 21:37Speaker 07

  Just because I study these things doesn't mean I'm wise enough to apply it in my life. But I do notice, I think about myself is that I need to be doing things. It's hard for me to just be passive. So I end up like fixing stuff around the house that is not just me laying on the couch. It involves some effort, physical and mental. And I feel good about myself. Now, not everyone's like this. We talked about individual differences. So I've got people close to me in my life who are very, you know, comfortable with passive activity, but I'm not one of those people. I definitely need some effort in my life.

• 22:11Sana Qadar?

  Now, the undercurrent beneath all of this, of course, is AI. Like with Catherine Jaser Morton's college class, turning their readings into a 10-minute podcast, there are some early signs that artificial intelligence could undermine the value that we place in effort. Michael Inslicht has run a study testing how students valued the work they wrote themselves versus the work they wrote with the aid of an AI tool.

• 22:36Speaker 07

  And we had students either write an essay, a very short essay, 50, not even essays, they got a paragraph on, we gave them like six or seven topics they can choose from, and they can write what they liked. And we told them we'd be grading it. And then the other half of the participants were given, you know, were piped in to a ChatGPT interface. And they were saying, hey, you could have ChatGPT write this for you. And they did, and they prompted it as they liked, and it wrote it.

• 23:04Sana Qadar?

  They looked at the quality of what was written. ChatGPT assisted essays were of a higher quality than purely human-written ones.

• 23:11Speaker 07

  A full 10 percentage points higher. So that's a bit sad, but I don't think of any surprise to anybody. But then afterwards, we asked people about their experience. These two conditions of getting help writing or writing themselves. And they said writing themselves was more meaningful, more important than using ChatGPT.

• 23:29Sana Qadar?

  Then the researchers offered to buy these essays from the students.

• 23:34Speaker 07

  Just to see how much they, how much value they put on the essays, not a lot, you know, between zero cents and 100 cents, so not a lot of money here. And people demanded as much money for their own essays as the far superior ChatGPT essays. So people felt more ownership, they felt more, that's more important when they did it themselves. So now, one of the promises of artificial intelligence is that it's going to reduce friction, it's going to reduce effort, it's going to make things easier. And I think for a lot of us, that's incredibly attractive. And for me, I'm actually perhaps one of the more pro-AI people academics that I know.

• 24:13Sana Qadar?

  But he still sees dangers.

• 24:14Speaker 07

  So if we remove effort from the various things that people do, will they find those things that they do meaningful still? Will they care about it? Will they feel that they're just, you know, there's no point in them even being there because the AI can do it for them? So effort, it allows for meaning, but also, I think, and perhaps even more critically, is learning theorists say that learning itself only occurs when you struggle, only when you're like effortlessly trying to process and understand something and working through it.

• 24:49Sana Qadar?

  In research, this is sometimes referred to as desirable difficulties.

• 24:53Speaker 07

  You know, it's only when you kind of read and struggle that you actually can remember what you've read and then think more deeply about it. Whereas if it's handed to you on a silver platter, if it's just like, you know, for example, if you're working to make it concrete, if you're working on a math puzzle, you can either work through it as much as you can, and then you see if you get the answer, you didn't get the answer, you get hints, you try to work through it, you're effortlessly getting through. Versus, you know, you work on it for a little bit, and then, okay, you know what, let me look at the answer. You press a button, you get the answer. And you're like, oh, I understand now. I understand now how to get that answer. But do you understand? Or is it obvious in hindsight? So these desirable difficulties, you know, like the effortlessly processing of information is thought to be incredibly important for learning. So what this means

• 25:38Speaker 07

  is not that I'm against using AI in education, I'm not, but it might mean that for a certain, especially for, you know, children or adolescents who are in a critical development period, AI might rob them of opportunities to learn, to truly learn. So there's a danger there. Like, we might see cognitive decline in younger people, you know, among the entire population, not just a few.

• 26:06Sana Qadar?

  As I said right at the start of this episode, technology has always made our lives easier. I mean, no one really regrets the invention of the dishwasher, for example.

• 26:16Speaker 07

  So clearly, some easing of our burdens is desirable. But the question is, and this is, you know, a subjective or perhaps a philosophical question is, what is the optimal amount of friction?

• 26:27Sana Qadar?

  The jury is still out on that one. And until we figure it out, or AI cracks it for us, you might like to introduce a little bit more friction in at least one area of your life.

• 26:47Sana Qadar?

  That is it for All in the Mind this week. Thanks to Michael Inslicht, professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, and Canadian writer and essayist Catherine Jaser Morton.

• 27:00Sana Qadar?

  Thanks also to producer Rose Kerr, senior producer James Bullen, and our sound engineer this week was Roi Huberman. I'm Sana Qadar, and just before I go, I want to give you a little preview of our episode that's coming up next week. It's about the brains of fathers and how they change after they become fathers. But not just their brains, other parts of the body too. This episode will feature Dr. Darby Saxby, who is a professor of psychology from the University of Southern California, and she's the author of a new book called Dad Brain.

• 27:35Sana Qadar?

  Okay, we've talked a bit about the brains of dads. I want to move on to talking about the testicles of dads, because researchers have also scanned the testicles of new dads. Tell me about this. Why, what's going on here? What did they find? Yeah, this is one of my favorite studies because it always makes me laugh. So this was done by Jim Rilling, who is a researcher at Emory, who, whose work I talk about in the book. And, and he's been a real pioneer in looking at men's brains and how they change with parenthood. And so he did this study where they scanned men's brains that were responding to images of babies and also attractive women. And then they scooted the men down in the scanner, and they also took images of their testicles. And so they were

• 28:19Sana Qadar?

  able to measure testicular volume. And then they linked men's testicular volume with their brain patterns in such a way that they were kind of able to make a link between men's reproductive strategy, which was kind of represented by the testicle volume, and their brain activation to kind of either sexual partner stimuli or caregiving infant stimuli. That is next week's episode of All in the Mind. And if you have any new dads in your life, they'll want to catch that one. Once again, I'm Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. Catch you next time.

• 29:27Speaker 00

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