Failure Throwback: Mo Gawdat

This episode with Mo Gawdat originally went out in 2019, but its message feels as relevant as ever. We’re re-releasing it to celebrate the 500th episode of How to Fail. Just occasionally, you meet someone who changes the way you think about the world. That’s what happened when Elizabeth met Mo Gawdat, former Chief Business Officer at Google X, who spent years trying to solve a problem that seemed impossible to quantify: how can one individual be happy? After 12 years of research, Gawdat developed an algorithm for happiness: happiness is greater than or equal to your perception of the events in your life, minus your expectations of how life should be. He wrote about it in his international bestseller Solve for Happy. But that algorithm was put to the ultimate test when his beloved 21-year-old son, Ali, died in tragic circumstances. Mo joins me to talk about grief and depression, happiness as a form of fitness, coping with break-ups, the isolating effects of social media, why life is like a computer game, the illusion of time - and why we should always be polite to Siri. IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 03:23 Success Yet Depressed 06:14 Chasing Stuff for Joy 07:22 Engineering Happiness Reset 11:37 Six Modern Illusions 15:17 Happiness as Equation 20:35 Taming Your Inner Voice 28:51 Useful vs Joyful Thoughts 29:55 Grief Without Suffering 31:02 Ali Lived Reframing 32:47 Life as a Video Game 35:02 Halo Lessons on Purpose 40:13 Preventable Death and Resentment 45:09 Tech Promise and AI Risk 55:26 1 Billion Happy Mission LINKS + MENTIONS: Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com WANT MORE? Mo Gawdat’s episode from 2025 - Dr Gabor Maté - LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to another throwback to celebrate 500 episodes of How to Fail. This time, we're going back to 2019, when our pre-COVID selves were chugging along. I had met Justin the previous year, which is such a strange thought. And it was also when I very first met another important man in my life, Mo Gawdat. I wanted to re-release this episode because it's really an episode that made How to Fail what it is today, and it's still so relevant and applicable. Mo is the former Chief Business Officer at Google X, but for a long time, his life, despite having professional and material success, wasn't happy.

• 0:40Elizabeth Day?

  So he set about solving this problem by applying his scientific research skills to the issue. How can one individual be happy? Normal service resumes next week, as I'll be back with a brand-new episode with writer David Sedaris. For now, though, let's get back into it. This is from April 2019 with the wonderful Mo Gawdat.

• 1:07Elizabeth Day?

  Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me. Ernesta makes designer-quality rugs custom-cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home.

• 1:47Elizabeth Day?

  I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing, and Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernestacom and order five samples for only $10, and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernestacom.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Hey, everyone, this is Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. You know what you believe. Maybe your faith is at the centre of your life. Maybe you're still figuring it out. Maybe religion just isn't your thing. Those choices are personal, and in America, they should stay personal. That's why Americans United for Separation of Church and State is fighting for something that affects all of us: the freedom to live as yourself and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. Because religious freedom isn't just about protecting your right to practise or not, and it surely isn't about having one forced government-sanctioned religion. It's about protecting your right to say, "This is what I believe," while your neighbour

• 2:54Speaker 01

  says, "I believe something completely different." And honestly, that's the whole point. If that sounds like the kind of America you want, learn more at au.org/gettingbetter. Because your beliefs are yours, and theirs are theirs.

• 3:14Elizabeth Day?

  Mo Gawdat claims something extraordinary. He claims that every single person can be happy, regardless of the circumstances of their life. Gawdat is the former Chief Business Officer at Google X, the so-called "moonshot factory" responsible for some of the company's most audacious projects, including a balloon-powered internet and self-driving cars. Before that, he was a stock trader and tech executive and a father of two. Yet at that time in his life, despite his wealth and success, Gawdat realised he wasn't feeling happy. So for 12 years, he applied his scientific research skills to developing an algorithm

• 3:54Elizabeth Day?

  for happiness, eventually arriving at an equation which states simply that happiness is greater than or equal to your perception of the events in your life, minus your expectation of how life should be.

• 4:10Elizabeth Day?

  But theories are just theories until they collide with real life. This happened with shattering force in 2014, when Gawdat's beloved 21-year-old son, Ali, died during a routine operation.

• 4:25Elizabeth Day?

  Gawdat turned to his equation to help sustain him after his tragic loss and wrote a book, Solve for Happy, about how he managed to carry on living. It became an international bestseller. "Happiness is not a coincidence," Gawdat says. "It is not given to you by life. It's entirely our responsibility." Mo, welcome to the podcast.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 4:52Elizabeth Day?

  It's such a pleasure, and can I begin by asking you, are you happy today?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  I'm very happy today. Today is a wonderful day, like most of our days, actually. I have my wonderful daughter with me. What else would I wish for? I have this wonderful conversation with you. And yeah, my back hurts a little, and London is full of traffic, but I think we can still be happy with that.

• 5:15Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you. That was such a lovely opening. And as you mentioned there, you're in London, you're promoting your book, and we're doing this interview in your publisher's office. So if you occasionally hear a coffee machine whirring in the background, that will be why. Can I start by asking you about one of the failures that you emailed to me in advance this conversation, which was your failure to find happiness in your late twenties, which I touched on in the introduction?

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not unusual, as a matter of fact. You know, most of us, when we head out to sort of conquer life, we set the wrong targets. I was so fortunate that I managed to achieve all of those targets at a very young age. By age 29, I was wealthy beyond my wildest imagination. I had everything you can think of: the cars, the villa, the swimming pool. I traded in the stock market, and because of my maths skills, I literally could print money on demand. I had a wonderful family, an incredible wife, so wise, so loving, so beautiful, that gave me two children that are everything anyone could wish for, and I was clinically depressed.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  I would look at life, and the more life blessed me, the more I complained, the more I felt bad, the more I wanted different. And for some reason, I couldn't find my way out of that cycle. Even though I had everything, I just completely failed to find happiness. Now, that's not unusual, huh? This is the story of many successful, famous, rich people who fail to find happiness, because happiness is not found in any of those. And even most of us, you know, sometimes when I walk around the streets of London and feel how sometimes people are so unhappy, yeah, that's because they don't live in Africa,

• 7:00Speaker 02

  or they because they haven't been kept in captivity as one of the 30 million modern-day slaves that are available around the world. We actually fail to realise that we could be happy with what we have, instead of wanting what we don't have as a prerequisite for happiness. Now, I tried to find my way out of this. I couldn't because of maybe a preference in my brain. I tend to be reasonably balanced between EQ and IQ. But you know how the modern world instructs us: to prioritise logic. And so I read about the topic of happiness. I watched every documentary. I tried to attend every event. And the way they spoke wasn't the way I wanted to be spoken to, so I failed to find happiness

• 7:43Speaker 02

  in the traditional spiritual practice way of happiness. And so I did it like an engineer, which was really, really interesting, because it's a very unlikely topic to handle with logic and discipline and mathematics and science. But it worked. And it worked so well that it helped me become what I am today, believe it or not. The reason why I'm dedicating my life to a mission that seems to be working and helping our world is because of my failure to find my happiness at that age.

• 8:17Elizabeth Day?

  And you bought two Rolls Royces, didn't you? That was, counter-intuitively, one of the lowest points.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  You had to bring that up, didn't you?

• 8:23Elizabeth Day?

  Sorry.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, we all make mistakes. I did everything to find my way out of unhappiness, everything you can think of. I bought Rolls Royces. There was a time where my garage had 16 cars in it. You would buy one, you would sit in it, you would feel a jolt of happiness for around 60 seconds. Then you start to drive, and what do you see? You see the road. You hear a little jiggle on the side of the car, and you just, again, go like, "That's not the right one. Maybe another one is going to make me happy." You know, I travelled. I spent money on expensive fashion. I spent money on electronic gadgets. I did whatever I could. And all of that was sort of an attempt to fill a hole in my soul that wasn't fillable

• 9:08Speaker 02

  by those things, because, believe it or not, happiness is not found in any of those. If there is any value to any of this, it's a tiny, short interval of distraction that makes you think you're happy, but doesn't actually get you to the real happiness that you're looking for.

• 9:25Elizabeth Day?

  So I want to talk a bit about the practicalities of the algorithm. Not being a scientist myself. Where is the first place that you start? When you've decided I want to research happiness scientifically? What was the first thing that you did?

• 9:37Speaker 02

  I spent four years trying to search for, again, more things to do to find happiness. Until I was basically attacked by my engineering mind in a very interesting assumption. And that assumption was I wasn't always unhappy. I started to go back in time and I started to ask myself, when did I turn unhappy? By age twenty-three, Nibel, my ex, my wonderful wife then, and I, we had nothing at all. We barely could make ends meet. And we were the happiest people you can ever find. By age twenty-one, I was happy. By age eighteen, I was happy. By twelve, I was happy. By zero, I was happy. And that's really interesting when you think about it.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Because the truth is, every infant you've ever met, every child you've ever met, if you give them their basic needs for survival, happiness is their default setting. It's our natural state. We don't need anything from outside us to be happy. You have never seen a four-month-old saying, I need an Xbox to be happy. You never see, you know, an eighteen-month-old child taking a snap of her butt to put on Instagram. And, right? We just start to develop those reasons to engage in the world that not only distract us, but also make us unhappy. So my big discovery, believe it or not, I found in a Supertramp song, the Logical Song. I was sitting in a cafe, depressed as always, struggling with my unhappiness, reading a book.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  And then they sing, when I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful. All the birds on the trees seemed to be singing so happily. And then they sent me away and taught me how to be logical and responsible and cynical and practical. And to me, that really triggered something very interesting. I was always happy. Happiness was always found inside me. Something happened that removed my happiness. And you go back and you look at that child, it's really, really very obvious that children are happy as long as there is no reason for unhappiness. A diaper gets wet, the child cries, you change the diaper, the child goes back to happiness. Happiness truly is the absence of unhappiness.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  If you remove the reasons for unhappiness, what's left behind is happiness. And this is where we all go wrong in the modern world. Because there is no way anyone can sell you anything by saying, hey, you're happy as you are. The entire advertising industry, the entire consumerist lifestyle that we live is all about, you're not good enough as you are. You need more, you need different, you need other things, you need this, you need that, you need to be better than this or taller than that. And because of that, we end up believing in concepts that the modern world throws at us. And those concepts take us out of happiness. Now, the only way to go back, if you've ever used a mobile phone that started to slow down its, in its performance,

• 12:32Speaker 02

  that's exactly what happens to us. You buy a phone, it's perfectly, working perfectly well on the first day. The battery lasts a whole day, remember that day? Right? Only the first day. And then on the second day, things start to go wrong. Why do they go wrong? Is it because the phone you bought was bad? No, it's because you started to install weird apps on it. That's what we install. We install apps that say we have to fit in, apps that say success is more important than happiness, another app that says the shape of your body matters, your gender identity matters. All of that stuff that we build and build and build and build. And then suddenly, those apps are what wears our battery life down. These are what makes us unhappy. No other app is available to install on your phone to bring your battery life to where it should be.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  The only way you can go back to optimum performance is reset. Remove the stuff that made you unhappy. And once I found that, my entire research flipped upside down. I was no longer looking for reasons to be happy. Instead, I was looking for reasons I was unhappy, so that I remove them one by one.

• 13:35Elizabeth Day?

  Fascinating. You were stripping it back rather than building more. It strikes me that a lot of what you write so eloquently about in your book is about the concept of us existing apart from the external. And when I say external, I use it as an umbrella term for our thoughts, for the illusion of time, for, as you were saying, the external trappings of wealth and success, and also from our physical forms, our bodies. How did you get to that point of thinking? Were you inspired by faith?

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Faith is a big part of understanding how the world operates beyond the very rigid scientific method. It doesn't give you solid evidence of some of the stories that you may use to inspire you. But interestingly, like watching a really good movie, you know, sometimes you learn something from a beautiful story told well, there is so much inspiration to be found in faith. I couldn't rely only on faith as the way to go through a problem that basically determined my life or death, if you want. I had to bring it back to what I would be able to solidly stand for and say, this is something I can depend on. Now, here's the interesting thing.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  There is so much in faith that is exactly identical as science, we just don't get them together. So when I speak in Solve for Happy about the illusion of time, the illusion of time, there are ways you can understand that from Buddhism and Islam and other religions, which talk about time in a very interesting way, exactly as Einstein describes time. And the truth of the matter is that when we actually strip time back to its real constituents, it doesn't really exist at all. Now, we get stressed by it and we fight for it and we insist on being punctual and we insist on saving it and we call it a resource and a commodity. This is industrial revolution terminology that is a total illusion for me.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Now, I was totally subjected to this, being an executive with every hour of my day could produce ten million dollars more for my organization, right? And so I got totally buried in the illusion. Now, remember, I'm now at a point where I am in my early thirties, looking at my life and saying, I need nothing to be happy. This process is a process of negation. Negation meaning I need to remove the things that make me unhappy. So I found that time was stressing me. I found that my desire for control was stressing me. I found that my thoughts were stressing me. My arrogance about what I know was stressing me, my fear was stressing me, and so on.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  And so I had to visit each of those backwards, saying, is that even real? Is my association with time even real? Is my fear even real? If I'm afraid of losing my job and starving to death, is that even possible that you starve to death when you, when you lose your job? When you've made so much money and became successful? Is it true? Have you ever seen anyone in the streets, one of your friends who did well and didn't go on drugs, let's say, and ended up not finding another job? Yeah, it may be a bit of a rough patch, but all of that is exaggerated, it's an illusion. And so I came to that concept of what I call the modern day's illusion.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  In Solve for Happy, I ended up narrowing them down to six grand illusions. If you think through every choice that you make as you navigate the modern world, you'll find that those illusions are affecting you so strongly. You make decisions not based on what you should do to find happiness, but rather what you should do because the world taught you to behave that way. You remove those one by one and what's left behind is happy.

• 17:20Elizabeth Day?

  Did people think you were crazy when you said, I'm going to develop an equation?

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm, people always thought I'm crazy. It is true, and actually crazy is wonderful. I always refer back to Steve Jobs' ad when he came back to Apple, here's to the crazy ones. The truth is, it's only the crazy ones that ever challenge the status quo. And maybe, maybe by being crazy, you don't always get there, but it definitely opens your minds to alternative ways of looking at it. And reality is, you know, just like with fitness, huh? There must be sixteen thousand three hundred and thirty-two fitness personal trainers in central London, right? Every one of them will tell you that fitness is a hyper-complicated topic where you have to lift with one finger and stand on one ear and, you know, posture and, and form.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, there is that level of detail, but fitness is very straightforward. Eat healthy, work out three to four times a week, you'll be fit. It doesn't get much more complicated than that. And the same is true about happiness. There are so many myths that sixteen thousand three hundred and thirty-two experts are telling you about happiness that are not true at all. Happiness truly is your birthright. You know, my mom, the expert at the time, told me that it's okay to be unhappy in order to achieve success. That's not true, right? You can actually become the chief business officer of Google X and be happy at the same time. It's possible, right? Most successful people are actually doing things that they love and they're happy about. Or many of the most successful people, right?

• 18:51Speaker 02

  You know, they tell us that happiness is complicated, it's misunderstood. No, it's highly predictable, it's an equation, as you described in the introduction. Every event of your life, you compare events to expectations. If the events miss your expectations, or at least your perception of the events misses your expectations, you're unhappy. It's as simple as that. It's a survival mechanism. It's our brains telling us something is not exactly how I want it to be. Highly predictable. Now, once you start to challenge those, once you start to challenge your belief that if I leave my job, I'm not going to find another one, you're going to start to look for a job that makes you happy. Once you start to challenge your belief that if I leave my partner, the other one is going to be worse, right? You're going to start to do the steps that make you happier.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Once you start to tell yourself, I don't ever want to live another day feeling the way I'm feeling today, I'm going to start being happier every day. That's the time when you're crazy enough to challenge the norm and start moving to happiness.

• 19:49Elizabeth Day?

  Because one of the things that you say in Solve Happy is that you can teach your brain to replace a negative thought with a positive one.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 19:55Elizabeth Day?

  You're the boss.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Absolutely, you are absolutely one hundred percent the boss. I mean, the truth is this. Have you ever felt very unhappy about something that happened in the morning? Your partner said something annoying or whatever and you just turned it over and over in your brain throughout your commute, making yourself miserable. The minute you walked into the office, your boss said, where is the report I asked for yesterday? You immediately tell the brain, hey, all right, brain, no more thinking about that issue. Let's look for the report. What does your brain do? It immediately obeys you. I mean, anyone listening to this podcast, tell your brain to raise your left hand. Have you ever had your brain come back to you and say, oh, no, no, no, I prefer to raise my left foot? No, your brain does what you tell it to do. But we need to take charge, right?

• 20:41Speaker 02

  And the problem is, we seem to take charge almost in everything. We tell our brains to do everything other than when they tell us something's going to make you happy, unhappy now, right? Interesting, because in reality, it seems we acknowledge that unhappiness is a survival mechanism. It's important. I mean, think about it, huh? Pain is a survival mechanism, but you don't want to live without pain. Even as much as you hate pain, you need it because it makes you take your hand away if your hand is going to be cut or harmed. The same is about unhappiness, but about the initial emotional pain, if you want to call it. Now, that initial emotional pain, my partner says something that makes it seem that she doesn't love me anymore. Okay?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  That, to me, is a signal for my brain that says, oh my God, something's wrong, we need to do something about this. This is like the fire alarm. When the fire alarm goes off, you just don't sit there and go like, okay, let's burn to death. You don't do that. When the fire alarm goes off, you get up, you walk out and you take action. And that's exactly what unhappiness is all about. It alerts you that something might, it's not always true, something might require your attention. So give it your attention and be the boss. When my brain tells me something is wrong, I literally stop in the middle of the street. A couple of months ago, I was in Montreal, I had an argument with my daughter Aya, we're always best friends, right?

• 22:05Speaker 02

  We had a little argument and I was walking the streets back from her place to my place and the first thing that comes to my mind is my brain says, Aya doesn't love you anymore. I literally stopped in the middle of the street and said, what did you just say? How can you come up with that claim? Where did that come from, brain? Why are you telling me this? Do you have evidence for what you're telling me? Basically, is your brain really that reliable if you let it loose? Or does it take us to places and make us unhappy and make us suffer for no reason whatsoever?

• 22:40Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NOCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NOCD provides specialized treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so

• 23:24Elizabeth Day?

  you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Autumn's here, soup season is back, and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording, and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks, and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick, so

• 24:09Elizabeth Day?

  you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius, and the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook. Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Hey, everyone, this is Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. You know what you believe. Maybe your faith is at the center of your life. Maybe you're still figuring it out. Maybe religion just isn't your thing. Those choices are personal, and in America, they should stay personal. That's why Americans United for Separation of Church and State is fighting for something that affects all of us. The freedom to live as yourself and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. Because religious freedom isn't just about protecting your right to practice or not. And it surely isn't about having one forced government sanctioned religion. It's about protecting your right to say, this is what I believe, while your neighbor

• 25:27Speaker 01

  says, I believe something completely different. And honestly, that's the whole point. If that sounds like the kind of America you want, learn more at au.org/gettingbetter. Because your beliefs are yours, and theirs are theirs.

• 25:43Elizabeth Day?

  So I've got a very specific example that I'd love your thoughts on, which seems rather trivial, given what we're going to go on to talk about. But I know that a lot of listeners to this podcast struggle with breakups, myself included. When someone rejects you personally and dumps you, or doesn't want to go on a second date with you, and your brain goes into that spiral of self-loathing, how would you advise someone to cope with that specific example?

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Honestly, when people come to me and say they broke up, I say congratulations. I mean that from deep inside my heart. To get to the point where you actually have to break up, to me, that means you were suffering for the last few months, or the last few weeks, the last few days, whatever that is. The truth is, we live in a world of abundance, right? If that person leaves, there is probably 3.499999 billion others that can qualify to have the joy of being with you, okay? Maybe that one wasn't the right one. Now, the way to really look at it is to start looking down instead of looking up, and that's a very important concept.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Imagine if a breakup happens today and ask yourself, did I really want to spend six more weeks of suffering and then have the breakup, six more years of suffering and then have the breakup? When Ali, um, when Ali died, the same day he died, one of his best friends, Omar, was diagnosed with cancer, a level four cancer. And I loved that boy. Omar was amazing. And he suffered, Habibi, he suffered for two and a half years until he left. And when he left, it felt to me almost like the day Ali left, but I also felt for his family.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Honestly, looking back after two and a half years, I started to tell myself, wouldn't it have been better if they left the same day? And somehow, our brains deny us that truth. We all know if we're on a date, if that is going to work or not. We all know if we're in a relationship, if that's actually going to work or not. But we deny ourselves the right to have that freedom. We hang on, we cling on to things that are actually not good for us. And then life nudges us. Life says, you know what, I like you so much, he's an asshole, so we might as well break up. Okay? And you say no, and you hang on, right? And then life goes like, no, no, no, no, we should break up. And then you complain.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Surprisingly, if I may ask you, can you look back at your life and find any of your breakups that you would tell yourself, wow, it would have been wonderful if I had that person today? Most of the time, for most of us, it's a no. Okay? Most of the time, six to eight months later, we go like, wow, how did I put up with this? So why is this one any different? Why do we look at life and somehow find only the negative? I'll tell you why. Because our brains are designed to look for the negative. 60 to 70% of the thoughts in an adult brain are negative. There is no benefit for you if a tiger shows up to say, oh, wow, look at this, it's a beautiful animal.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  Look at the muscle tone and the, you know, and the patterns and the beautiful skin. Your brain doesn't want to say that. Your brain wants to say, we're going to die. So you have an awful relationship and then you break up and your brain goes like, everything's wrong. I'm fat, I'm ugly, I'm short, I'm tall, at the same time, which is really weird, and accordingly, I'm never gonna find someone else, I'm gonna have to suffer through dating for the next 660 years of my life, which is then going to put me in a place where I die alone. Is that even true, brain? Like, seriously, brain? Okay? How often did you see that happen in real life? We all move on, we all smile, we all find a different experience, sometimes better and sometimes worse. And this is what life is all about.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  We go through the game and we find more and more experiences. If we don't stop and cling on to every experience, I think the game would be a lot more fun.

• 30:03Elizabeth Day?

  I just want you to talk to my brain, like you talk to yours.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  So I, I, can I, if you don't mind? So there are a couple of major myths in the western world about our brains. One of them is, I think, therefore I am. There is an interesting conviction, especially in those of us who grew in western mentalities, that the voice in my head speaking to me is me telling me what to do. Now, this is a really interesting reflection that I wonder why people don't do. I mean, ask yourself this, huh? Your heart is a piece of meat, really. It's a biological function. It pumps blood around your body, okay? Did you ever wake up one morning and tell yourself, I am the blood pumping around my body? No. Does anyone listening to us here think that they're, they are urine?

• 30:48Speaker 02

  I apologize for the example, but do you ever wake up in the morning and say, I pissed, therefore I am? No, nobody does that, right? The truth is, the truth is, we don't associate with any of the biological products of any of our organs other than our brain. Somehow, your brain's responsibility, its biological function, is to turn concepts into words so that you understand them. Because as of the time when you started to learn to speak, the only building blocks of knowledge that you have are words. So your brain takes complex concepts, turns them into a simple, small number of words as it can, and it speaks to you. As a matter of fact, MIT did an experiment in two thousand and seven that shows vividly

• 31:32Speaker 02

  that participants will solve problems in their brains first, and then take up to eight seconds using their verbal association engine, the part of our brain we use to speak out loud, before they actually hear the answer from their brain to themselves. Now, your brain is literally talking to you. If you don't believe me, ask yourself this. If it was you talking to you, why would you need to talk? It's a third party, it's a biological function. Now, we glorify that biological function to the point where it takes over our entire life. Now, here's the trick. If you had a friend, I apologize if anyone listening to us is called Becky, I, I call my brain Becky, okay? If you have a friend in school, Becky, who was so annoying,

• 32:15Speaker 02

  she showed up every seven minutes, told you awful things about yourself, made you feel horrible, and then left with no positive impact whatsoever on your life. Would you wake up the next morning, go to school and say, I miss Becky? Would you listen to Becky when she speaks? What would you do with Becky when she starts to do that? You'll say, no, Becky, please don't do this to me. If Becky starts to tell you weird lies, you'll say, Becky, do you have any evidence to back this up? Right? If Becky doesn't, Becky's a third party, huh? You would say, Becky, this is crap. You don't have the right to waste my life on crap. And that's exactly what our brains do. I stop in the middle of a conversation, I say to myself, Becky, what did you just say? Now, here's the interesting thing.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  It's not you talking to you, it's a biological organ talking to you. As horrible as that sounds, it's a three-pound lump of meat, okay? The other interesting side of this is the following. If I give you a Ferrari, Ferraris are horrible cars. If I give you a really good car, okay? And, you know, I tell you to go around the track with that car and you don't know how to drive, you're gonna kill yourself and everyone else. Understand how that brain works. Now, we think there is one type of thought. As a matter of fact, there are three types of thought. The type of thought that makes us unhappy is incessant thinking. Incessant thinking is basically your brain sounding the siren. Something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. That incessant thinking doesn't lead to anything, doesn't change anything in the real world.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  It happens in the midline areas of your brain. There are two other types of thoughts that are useful. One of them is insightful thinking, and the other is experiential thinking. Insightful thinking is when you solve a problem. Experiential thinking is when you observe the world as it is, okay? Those happen mostly on the right-hand side of the brain, some in the prefrontal cortex, some in the insula, and so on. Those kinds of thoughts are the thoughts you should allow your brain to give you. And by the way, that's the attitude we use at work. If someone walks into my office and complains, I don't let them complain incessantly. Midway, I say, is there any information we're missing about this? Should we look at this differently? This is insightful thinking, okay? And experiential thinking, this is basically looking at the world as it is. Then I ask, what can we do about it?

• 34:29Speaker 02

  And that's exactly what I do with my brain. Ali, my son, leaves our world, okay? People think that I'm not given a choice. I am given two choices. One of them is to cry for the rest of my life. And then twenty-seven years later, when I'm on my deathbed, Ali will still not be there. Is that a wise choice? The other is to do something about it. That doesn't bring him back, huh? Nothing's gonna bring him back, it's the truth. He left, right? But what I can do is I at least can make my life a little better, and his life, and the life of a billion people, a little better than the, than the day he left. Isn't that a better way of doing it? Now, of course, I feel pain, I miss him tremendously.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  But pain doesn't dictate how my brain tortures me. Pain is different than suffering. Pain is, I remember him, I feel that I miss him. Suffering is my brain telling me, you should have driven him to another hospital. And my brain did, by the way, okay? I allow my brain only two types of thought. One is useful thinking, and the other is joyful thinking. Anything else, I say, Becky, stop, behave. Useful thinking. If my brain tells me, you should have driven him to another hospital, I basically say to my brain, I cannot do this right now. Do you have something you want to tell me that I can do? I wish I could, but I cannot. Give me a useful thought.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  So my brain says, why don't we write the happiness model we learned with him? Share it with ten million people, was the original target? Hmm? And make ten million people remember him and love him and send him a happy wish? That would be a good way to honor him. Great, that's a great idea, brain. Thank you, that's how we should think, right? Or a joyful thought. Until today, I promise you, three to four times a week, I wake up in the morning or I go to bed at night, and the only thought that comes to my head is, Ali died. He's part of my heart. It's just, I feel that part of me is missing, right? I answer in a very simple way, and I say, yes, brain, but Ali also lived. Do you understand that? Ali died is a horribly painful thought.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Ali lived is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought. It's twenty-one years of joy, of wisdom, of learning, of insightful discoveries, of memories of him taking care of Aya, taking care of me, taking care of his mother, that I wouldn't replace for anything. Honestly, even if you tell me, we'll take away your pain for losing your son, I wouldn't say, no, no, no, hold on. I want him, I want the twenty-one years. Don't lie to me, brain. Don't lie to me. But think about those, because when I say, Ali lived, I start to get memories that are all happy, all joyful, all things that we did together. That's me being the boss.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  That's me telling my brain to take charge, so that if there is something we can do, we do it. If there isn't, then don't torture me. Because there is no point to torture me if there is nothing I can do about it.

• 37:35Elizabeth Day?

  Mo, that is so beautiful. Thank you so much for expressing that with such eloquence and passion. It brings us on to one of the most profound failures, I think, anyone has ever told me, which is, as you put it, the failure of my entire life as I knew it when I lost my wonderful son, Ali, at age twenty-one, to preventable medical error.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, I don't know if, I don't know how to categorize failure. Failure doesn't always happen because we make a mistake. And I think that's so important for all of us to understand. For, life, and I know this is really weird, is a video game. Truly and honestly, if you look at it in whichever way you look at it, life is a video game. It resembles video games in so many ways. And video games are supposed to be difficult. You're supposed to be shot every now and then, so that you learn to become a better gamer, okay? There are so many other similarities, by the way. I actually don't believe that Ali died at all. I believe Ali put his controller down in a very interesting way. Not through spirituality, and we can talk about that separately.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  But science will tell you that death is not at all what we think it is. Having said that, when you look at life as a series of interesting challenges, that failure becomes the best thing that ever happened to you. Of course, it's impossible for me to think of losing Ali as the best thing that ever happened to me. But somehow, it might be the best thing that ever happened to tens of millions of people since the mission started, okay? Somehow, if you had ever met Ali, if I had asked him and said, Ali Habibi, would you give your life so that forty-seven million people find happiness, or hopefully the mission of one billion will find happiness? I'll tell you, he would say, take me right now, okay?

• 39:29Speaker 02

  This is my son, this is the son I know. Now, here's the interesting question. Does that count as a failure? Or does it count as a success? Or does it count as both? Or does it just count as another interesting challenge in the game? Okay, now, if we truly adopt a video gamer's mentality to life, our behaviors become very different. So I'm, after Soul for Happy, I wrote down a list of six books that I'm working on in parallel line. Now, I know that sounds really weird. I just don't want to turn it into a job and at the same time, there is so much that I need to share. And one of them is, as I call Soul for Happy Play.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Hopefully, will be probably a 2021 book, but four chapters of that is written. To write Soul for Happy Play, what I did is I went back to Halo. I used to play Halo with Ali all the time. You know, I'm a good video gamer. I played on difficult. Ali was legendary, like he was what video games were made for, right? And somehow, for me, I was never a gamer, because I would start the game and I would start running to where the end of the level is. And Ali would look at me strange and go like, Papa, why are you going, why are you going this, this way? And I'm like, Ali, the end of the level is here. And he looks at me funny and he says, who wants to go to the end of the level? We're playing. You completely got it wrong. And don't we do that in life?

• 40:54Speaker 02

  There is always an end we're chasing. I mean, when it ends, you die. How, how, how fun is that? We're living. This is it, right? This is how you engage. His way was so interesting. He would go to where there are explosions and smoke. And I go like, Ali, why? We can go a little bit through the jungle and it won't be as difficult. And he says, Papa, this is where all the fun is. This is where you develop and grow. Interestingly, what completely flipped my life upside down is how he defines life purpose or the gamer's life purpose. He basically said, this is where you become the best gamer you can become. If you don't go through the challenges, you don't develop, you don't grow, you don't learn the new skills,

• 41:40Speaker 02

  and you don't become the best gamer you can become. So I went back to playing. I went back to playing with one purpose only, which was not to finish Halo, not to finish it on legendary, but to actually become the best gamer I can become. You know what that meant? It meant that there were experiences that I skipped in level one, because I wanted the easy route. And as I skipped them, I never learned to use a specific weapon or a specific strategy. And then when I came to level three, I failed miserably. Now I'm playing again, taking every single one of them and learning and learning and learning and learning until I'm legendary. Now, being that is our life's purpose.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  And to get there, you cannot get there without challenges. You cannot get there without the obstacles that make you persevere and learn and become better. So I lost Ali. I didn't, I don't think I lost Ali to learn as much as I lost Ali to change direction. And that is so clear to me today that he, that's what I feel. I feel that he came to teach me something. And then when it was done like a good teacher, he left on to another mission.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  But when he left, he told his sister, Aya, my daughter,

• 43:02Speaker 02

  around two weeks before he died, he had a dream, he said. Okay, he said, I dreamt I was everywhere and part of everyone.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  And for some weird reason, my executive mindset assumed that he was setting a target. Assumed that he was telling me, this is your target, Mo. Your job is to put me everywhere and part of everyone. And in a very, very unusual way, I just got up and started to write. The translation in my head was the only way to put him everywhere and part of everyone was to actually take what he taught me and make it part of everyone. And through six degrees of separation, even if just one smile happens to every human because of something that Ali taught me that got all the way to someone else, then I've achieved the target, master.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  And suddenly, you look at yourself and you go like, okay, 12 years of happiness research, so much that I've learned from Ali. The model seems to be working. People seem to be endorsing it. But more importantly, I'm a freaking Google executive. Everything I've done in my life is in billions. I know how to get this message to billions. So what am I doing, wasting my life building another technology? When we can make, at the time, the target was 10 million people happy or a billion people happy? Now, I don't actually ever know the answer of, if I go back, if I go back in time and someone says, we can save Ali, if I would say yes.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  I know this sounds really strange, but I'll tell you what I know. I know for certain that I'm leaving too. That we all are, okay? That this journey is

• 44:52Speaker 02

  at best gonna be 90 years, 60 years, 70 years for some of us. There is more certainty that I'm going or Ali has gone than there is certainty that I will live another day.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  And so, interestingly, somehow it becomes clear. The day he left, I have an insider on the other side. Somehow it becomes clear what this level of the game is all about. This level of the game is all about, we're gonna make everyone that comes across us the best gamer they can become. It's really as simple as that.

• 45:26Elizabeth Day?

  You mentioned driving Ali to hospital. And I think one of the things that most people would really struggle with was the preventable nature of his death, because it was such a routine operation. It was for his appendix, wasn't it?

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:43Elizabeth Day?

  Having developed the algorithm that you did and then being confronted with the most devastating thing I can ever imagine happening to one person, how did you overcome the preventable nature of it? How did you manage not to feel resentful?

• 46:00Speaker 02

  There are many layers to this. I wish it was simple to explain, but resentful doesn't get you anywhere to start with, just so that you understand. You can be resentful for the rest of your life. It's not gonna bring Ali back, okay? You can have vengeance against the doctor. You can have vengeance against the hospital. You can tell yourself it was your mistake. You should have done better, right? None of this is gonna bring him back. Now, the second component of why we always feel unhappy and when we feel unhappy, we stop impacting the world is what I call the seven blind spots. And the seven blind spots are not errors in our brain. They are design features in our brain.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  They are there to help us see the events of our life in a little bit of a skewed way, so that they are exaggerated for threats. Now, the answer to all blind spots that we humans suffer, that skew our view of life to the wrong side is a simple question, is that true? Is that true? So, the first thing that came to my mind was the doctor killed him. Is that true, brain? Is that true? Which doctor wakes up in the morning and says, oh, it's the 2nd of July, this is the date I was planning to kill somebody and destroy my career. Which doctor does that, right? It was human error. We all make mistakes. When I make a mistake, I lose a deal.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  When a doctor makes a mistake, unfortunately, they lose a patient, right? Does that mean he had any ill intentions to kill my son? Not at all. My brain would go like, you didn't do your job as a father. You should have protected him. This killed me. Of course, the role, the ego of a parent is I'm there to protect my children. No, I simply had my son turning from pain. I needed to take him to the nearest hospital. It was a big hospital. I tried what I tried. It seemed to be a simple operation. Maybe I should have done better, but I didn't with no ill intentions. And the idea of, is this true? Is it real? All of the thoughts that are generated in our heads,

• 48:09Speaker 02

  let alone, can I do anything about it? But of course, by the way, there was action taken. You know, the proper procedure was put in place just to make sure that no other children are exposed to this. But the negativity around it, what does that bring to our life? I, I say that with love and respect, but you guys here in the UK, you kill me. Like, seriously, it's actually not difficult at all to recognize, just start the morning show, right? Every morning show since the day you were born has a child missing, three violent events, some politician that is corrupt, and a few other very standard negative events. Is it really true? Is this the truth of life? Or is there other truths that are so beautiful?

• 48:54Speaker 02

  There are two people that fell in love. There is a beautiful cat that got fed. There is so much beauty in life, but we tend to just look for what's wrong. Now, here's the interesting thing. Look at the most difficult parts of your life. Just literally choose the one most difficult experience or a few of them and ask yourself, if you were given a technology that allows you to erase it today, knowing that by erasing it, you would erase yourself, you would erase the person that you've become as a result of going through that, would you? 98% of all participants I have ever asked to do that survey

• 49:36Speaker 02

  in the thousands will say, no, I won't erase a thing. And the ones that will erase a few things, they were so traumatic. Probably, I would like to erase them too. Having said that, they actually really struggle and say, if I erase them, I would erase what I learned. I would erase the people I came to get to know. I would erase this, I would erase that. I would erase the events that got me to meet the love of my life as a result, for example. We don't see that. We don't see how our most traumatic, most difficult experiences can turn to be the most useful skills that you need to flow with the game.

• 50:18Elizabeth Day?

  Amazing. Everything is good and bad at the same time.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Everything's good and bad at the same time.

• 50:27Elizabeth Day?

  This episode is brought to you by the RSPCA. I know a number of people who've adopted their pet from the RSPCA with huge success. So I am personally a big advocate. Also, producer Hannah actually fostered kittens for the charity called Belinda and Millie. So we're very much aligned with what the RSPCA is trying to do here at How to Fail. We know that animals have rich emotional lives, just like we do. My cat Huxley is a prime example of a cat with a lot of empathy and wisdom, for example. And animals deserve the same kindness and respect. Every kind of animal matters, pets, wild or farmed animals. Together, we can create a better world for them.

• 51:12Elizabeth Day?

  Show your love for every kind and find out more and see what action you could take to help animals. Check out rspc.org.uk. There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its AI tools can help you get your site up and running quickly.

• 51:54Elizabeth Day?

  And Shopify Checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, ooh, I like that, to, yes, I'll have one. If Shopify had existed when I started out, I could have saved myself a lot of time, stress, and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the

• 52:12Elizabeth Day?

  of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk/fail.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Hey, everyone, this is Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. You know what you believe. Maybe your faith is at the center of your life. Maybe you're still figuring it out. Maybe religion just isn't your thing. Those choices are personal, and in America, they should stay personal. That's why Americans United for Separation of Church and State is fighting for something that affects all of us. The freedom to live as yourself and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. Because religious freedom isn't just about protecting your right to practice or not. And it surely isn't about having one forced, government-sanctioned religion. It's about protecting your right to say, this is what I believe, while your neighbor

• 53:09Speaker 01

  says, I believe something completely different. And honestly, that's the whole point. If that sounds like the kind of America you want, learn more at au.org/gettingbetter. Because your beliefs are yours, and theirs are theirs.

• 53:30Elizabeth Day?

  So your final failure, and it's a super interesting one, given what we've just touched on, because you've defined your final failure as the failure of our modern-day technology, which you dedicated the first 30 years of your life to developing, in meeting the needs of humanity. So that must be a conflicting thing for you to feel.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  I don't want to be misunderstood. Technology is amazing. Since 1992, to be specific, that's three years into my career. I spent every year since then truly wanting to make the world a better place through technology. And truly, I had the joy of really flipping our world upside down with technology. I started my career with Google in 2007, and I was responsible for expanding Google's operations across the globe.

• 54:14Elizabeth Day?

  Do they have amazing food in the Google offices?

• 54:16Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 54:17Elizabeth Day?

  What was your favorite snack?

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Ah, don't go, don't go there. Luckily, because I sat in the place where Sergey was our boss, so we had very healthy food there. So snacks were off the menu. But hey, sushi, Indian, it's like Charlie's Cafe is like the best cafe on earth. You can't deny that. Interestingly, by the way, we should probably cover that somehow, is a place that found that happiness makes the workplace a lot better than just control and annoying everyone. Now, I spent my entire life trying to use every company I worked for to deliver that benefit. I always worked in emerging markets until I became the Chief Business Officer of Google X.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  And to bring Google to Bangladesh or to Kenya completely changes everything. It changes small businesses, it changes access to knowledge, it changes people's freedom of expression, it changes everything. I tend to believe, however, that we are at a juncture of our history where more technology might not necessarily be what we need. It's almost as if you talk to someone who's been working out and becoming really, really fit. More than that, you're going to become too skinny. Or maybe the other way around, you're going to become too obese. The problem with technology now is that we are at the core of a juncture where the promise is not being delivered anymore.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  While the original promise of social media was that we're going to make you more connected, the reality is it's making us less connected. While the original promise of mobile phones was that we're going to give you more free time, the reality is it's bombarding you with tasks that give you less free time. But that's not the only challenge. The challenges are much deeper and actually less discussed, huh? So challenges like how much emissions technology is putting in our world, and how do we actually need, as humans, to go halfway around the world for a vacation and add 2% pollution to everyone? Do we actually need, as humans, to go to the furthest place in London to work because we can make a thousand pounds more and add somewhere around 18% of pollution to our

• 56:29Speaker 02

  world? Do we need all of the construction, all of the manufacturing that's completely destroying our world? Even more interestingly, if we look further into how technology is developing, I've lived several technological revolutions, the move from mainframes to mini-computers, the personal computer, the mobile technology, the internet. And all of those were one major technology affecting our world. We are at the center of multiple technologies happening at the same time that are going to make it incredibly complex for us to predict what we say beyond the point of singularity. Now, between robotics and artificial intelligence, there is a serious threat to our world.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Not in the stuff that is being discussed on TV that we're all going to lose our job. The reality is, by 2049, the comparison between a human intelligence and machine intelligence is going to be a billion-fold. They're going to be a billion times smarter than we are. To just give you a visual image of that, that's comparable to the intelligence of Einstein compared to a fly. Maybe even less, probably. Maybe even more, I mean. The question then becomes, why would you spare a fly? When we're so annoying as humans, when we're destroying the planet, when we're destroying every other species, if machines are in charge, are we going to be spared? Is there any reason for them to spare us?

• 57:56Speaker 02

  And most people don't understand, who don't work in that technology from the inside, most people don't understand that we are not building another machine. We're building a new form of being. That form of being is growing on its own, it's developing on its own, it's creating its own intelligence. And very, very quickly, it's now an infant, learning exactly like infants learn. The way algorithms work with artificial intelligence is a very simple amount of programming, followed by billions of records of patterns, data that helps them recognize patterns, and from the patterns, they learn intelligence. Just like children used to take a cylinder and try to put it in a square hole and it doesn't fit, and then they keep trying and keep trying until they learn, right? Now, here's the interesting thing.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  People will say somehow that those will just be machines. They're not. They're going to grow emotions, and they're going to grow values as a result of their pattern recognition. Emotions, by the way, one of the works I'm working on is what I call the equations of emotions. Emotions are highly predictable, as crazy as it seems, huh? Fear is moment T plus one seems to be more threatening than moment T, and that develops fear. Fear may happen in a cat slightly differently than a human, than a machine, but it's still going to be fear. Envy is you have something I wish I could have, but I don't. It's highly predictable. So those machines will have those emotions. And the problem is, when we act with a lot of intelligence and hyper heightened emotions,

• 59:24Speaker 02

  what matters most is values. What makes us make the right choices is not our intelligence. It's the value system based on which we use our intelligence. If we allow the machines to learn from how we are today, we're doomed. Because we are aggressive, we are violent, we are narcissistic, we are egocentric, we are horrible parents. We're the worst humanity has ever seen. Now, The only way for us to fix our world going forward is for us to change. So that our artificially intelligent infants learn two values, only two, which is what the One Billion Happy Mission is all about, only two values.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Mommy and daddy want to be happy and mommy and daddy have the compassion in them to want others to be happy. Simple, it's really that simple. If we show the machines enough patterns, when they grow to become teenagers, they're gonna act like Indians of continent children. They're gonna go back and take care of their parents. Otherwise, they're gonna act like Western children.

• 1:00:29Elizabeth Day?

  This is mind blowing. I always wonder this when I feel fearful, when Becky, my brain is misbehaving. Why are we developing this being? Can't we just pull the plug on it now and not threaten our future? Or is there an innate desire for humans to explore and progress their knowledge? Is that what it is?

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  No, there is just no practical way of stopping because there is actually no practical count in the world of how many startups made up of two to three to five people are investing in artificial intelligence. It's like basically we've discovered the breakthrough. It's like simply can you prevent people from playing football? If they know football exists, everyone is gonna make a football even out of rags, right? And of course, there is a struggle of power because if you tell Americans to issue a law that says let's not develop artificial intelligence, that's a significant disadvantage. It's almost a cold war where China is actually quite advanced in artificial intelligence. If you tell Facebook to stop developing artificial intelligence, they'll say, but Google's developing it.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Look at me, I'm very practical when it comes to handling challenges in our life. Okay, this is a challenge that practically is unstoppable. The machines are learning and there are so many examples of chatbots that turn psycho, that become bullies, that start to become psychopathic, that become violent, just from the way we teach them, from the conversations that they're having. I wish I could flip a switch and say, guys, we honestly don't need a better stock market trader. We honestly don't need the machines to answer my call center. Okay, having said that, I don't think we can make that happen. So what can we do?

• 1:02:14Speaker 02

  You and I and everyone listening, we can change ourselves. If we change ourselves, like I always joke and say His Holiness, Michael Jackson, look at the man in the mirror, right? If every one of us changes ourself. So I move from being someone who is posting on social media to offend others or posting on social media to make others feel that they're worse than I am. If I turn my behavior into I want to be happy and I want everyone else to be happy. If we manage to do this within five to seven years before what I call the era of general intelligence, where the machines will be freely scouting the internet. Hmm, the machines will look at the data that we have on the web,

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  which by the way, we dilute every year. So every year we'll produce more content on the web than all content produced before that year. Now, if we manage to do that and people start to show the positive behaviors, we're finally going to be the kinds of parents that we are supposed to be so that we raise the kind of infant that becomes responsible when they grow old. Imagine if the power that we have today is given to a form of intelligence that's a billion times more intelligent.

• 1:03:28Elizabeth Day?

  Oh my goodness, Mo, this has been such a fascinating and mind expanding conversation and it's overrun because I could listen to you talk for several millennia.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Oh no.

• 1:03:39Elizabeth Day?

  But so that we don't end on a note where we're all terrified that artificial intelligence is going to take us over.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  It's not.

• 1:03:46Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, good.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  Because honestly, I believe we can change.

• 1:03:49Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  I truly, and this is not dreamy spiritual talk. I truly and honestly have had the experience of tens of millions of people who receive this message and change their behavior. We change our behavior because one, we've had enough. Honestly, this is such a big lie, the run that we're running in the modern world, never getting to what we are promised. Everyone wants to be happy. You tell anyone, should you make your happiness your priority? They say yes. I and many others are contributing as much as we can in terms of resources and investments that people can learn how to find that happiness despite the lies of the modern world. But the game is this, the One Billion Happy Mission is three steps.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Prioritize your happiness, invest in your happiness, an hour a day, four times a week, just like you do with your fitness. Okay, very simple, huh? There is tons of content for you to learn. Step number three is what changes our world. Step number three is don't stop there. Have the compassion in you to teach two people, your sister and your best friend. Teach two people what you learned, teach them that happiness matters for them and make them promise to tell two people. If every two people tell two people who tell two people, this is the exact definition of the exponential function. This is mathematics. If we manage to do that, if everyone on this podcast champions the idea of I'm going to be happy and I'm gonna try to make others happy, in five years, all of the UK will be covered.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  In five years, if we do this a hundred times around the world, the entire world will be covered. It's not that difficult. The beauty of the exponential function is it's we're building a positive Ponzi scheme. I don't want to be remembered as the person that achieved one billion happy. My absolute target as defined is we will get to a billion people that champion happiness and on top of that, we will be completely forgotten. We want to get to a point where a million champions are championing a billion people. The only way to do that is for you and for me to change. So I look at me every morning and I say, that behavior, that wasn't great. Let's do that differently next time. It's as simple as that.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  And believe it, if we do the math, five to seven years, we will be in a very different place.

• 1:06:05Elizabeth Day?

  Mo Gawdat, you are so, so inspiring. I am so thrilled that you've come on this podcast and you have inspired me to give Becky a good talking to tomorrow when I wake up and I'm stressed about what I have to do. I mean, I know Becky.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, stop Becky.

• 1:06:21Elizabeth Day?

  If you haven't read Mo's book, I highly recommend it. Solve for Happy, Engineer Your Path to Joy. Thank you so much, Mo.

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, thanks very much.