RE-AIR: Holiday Special: Battle of the Bastards, Who's The Worst? Theseus vs. Jason

Because it only seemed right, here's a holiday re-airing of 2022's inaugural Battle of the Bastards. (Yes, Michaela and I will make this an annual thing!) It's that time of year when I can't fathom writing another heavily researched script so here's me breaking down Theseus vs. Jason, mostly from memory. Who is the worst? Will the results be 50/50?? Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content! http://www.patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Sources: See past episodes on Theseus and Jason for further sources; Theoi.com; Early Greek Myths by Timothy Gantz. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So, check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department, ever, so carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market. At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it

• 1:29Speaker 01

  easier to save, too. So, this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 2:17Liv Albert?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Quince. You know the ones. I've been raving about them for ages. But now is the time of year when you might consider gifting Quince to the people in your life. There's nothing quite like having pieces in your closet that you love and you know you can count on for any occasion, except maybe giving someone else that same feeling. So this holiday season, think Quince. Quince, you know, makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim, the kind of pieces you'd be just as happy gifting as you would be to unwrap. You all know I love all of the stuff I have from Quince.

• 2:58Liv Albert?

  I'm actually traveling in Greece right now and I have my go-to woven leather bag. I seriously use it everywhere, that's why it's with me here. It's beautiful and it's practical and it's from Quince. And I actually have a parcel to pick up when I get back home, which has some goodies in there. I got this pair of corduroy high-rise pants. I'm really excited to try those out as soon as I get home. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. So give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 3:39Liv Albert?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was "Let's Talk About Myths, Baby." It's the best way to support the show.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Hosts Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department, ever, so carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  This December, the magic of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol returns to Virginia Repertory Theater in downtown Richmond. Experience the transformation of Ebenezer Scrooge as he's visited by the ghosts of Christmas past, present, and future, and rediscover the joy and true meaning of the holiday season. Performances run November 18th through December 27th. Tickets on sale now at virginia rep.org or by calling 804-282-2620.

• 5:03Liv Albert?

  Oh, hi, hello there. Welcome to a very special holiday episode where I frankly picked a topic that felt both deeply fun and entertaining and also didn't require much brain power or research on my part because I am spending way too much time in the realm of Spartan history and culture and mythology and gods, I just can't think about anything else right now. So guess what? It's time to debate who is the worst Greek hero? This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, who is doing well. But that is right, it is time for the Battle of the Bastards, as I'm calling it. Who is worse, really worse, Jason or Theseus? Now, if you listen to me regularly and/or generally know my personal stance on the

• 5:45Liv Albert?

  heroes, you might already have your answer, and that answer might be Theseus. However, we, those of us who believe these things, are not necessarily in the majority, which actually brings me to the inspiration behind today's ridiculous and over-the-top episode. So, over on the somehow still existing app that is Twitter, a fellow classics nerd/actual professional studying this field, posed a poll on this exact question: "Who was worse, Jason or Theseus?" Now, this brilliant Twitterer in question is, well, OzCat is her Twitter name, and Kristi underscore lover is her handle. There's a link in this episode's description to the tweet in question.

• 6:29Liv Albert?

  And also, I will be adding in a little voice memo that she sent me describing how all of this came to be. But basically, the poll ran for 24 hours. It got over 8,000 votes. Over 8,000 votes, you guys. And guess what the result was? Can you guess? It was 50 fucking 50. After 24 hours and over 8,000 votes of "Who is worse, Jason or Theseus?", it was 50/50. That is how contentious this question really is. And so, here I am with a not-at-all-formal debate

• 7:14Liv Albert?

  in which I will just compare all of the things these two men did in a very not-at-all-academic and definitely comedic and over-the-top manner. I have also consulted my Twitter followers for their input and have many of their responses as well. We are making this collaborative and weird because 8,000 people couldn't decide who was worse. And isn't that just the most absurdly joyful thing you've ever heard?

• 7:49Liv Albert?

  This is episode 193, "Battle of the Bastards: Who is the Worst? Theseus vs. Jason."

• 8:13Liv Albert?

  Let's start the episode with this message from Catherine, the origin of this pole.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  It's kind of strange. I'm not entirely sure where the pole came from. But I was just sitting there one day and I thought, isn't it funny how there are people named Jason? And how Jason is an ancient, you know, literature character. And considering how terrible he is, why are people named after him? And then I started thinking, he can't be the only terrible man in literature, especially Greek literature.

• 8:51Speaker 03

  And that is where Theseus came in. Having read books like Ariadne, I was astounded that I didn't really know the mythology behind these types of dudes. And even by running the poll, I discovered a whole bunch of new stuff like Theseus's abduction of Helen, which I had no idea about. The fact is, I was wondering which of these two men was so terrible that they were basically the worst. And on my Twitter account, which is @ChristieLover, I, Catherine Prouding, decided to endeavor this question amongst the public. Liv very nicely retweeted it, and as a result, we got over 8,000 votes.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  And of those votes, 50% went to Theseus and 50% went to Jason. It was a very chaotic piece of art, if I do say so myself.

• 9:47Liv Albert?

  Wasn't that amazing? Oh my god, I can't believe,

• 9:51Liv Albert?

  I just can't believe how much this influenced her, the internet, so much. What a thrill. What a silly thing. I'm so grateful that this gave me the idea to create this episode. I needed it. And just perfect perfection, chef's kiss. Now, let's start this off by saying that I do realize not everyone loves to hate these two heroes. I will admit, if and when I must, must, that they do sometimes have redeeming qualities. Or at least qualities which can be interpreted as redeeming if one wishes to interpret them that way. In the case of Theseus, he is deeply vital to Athenian mythology and mythos, to their homeland and origins. Like, he is a hero. See, when I'm in Athens, I don't shit-talk Theseus. It's my rule, because one respects these things.

• 10:35Liv Albert?

  Can you read the ancient sources on Theseus and not interpret him the way I do? Absolutely. Are there some things that he does which are objectively horrifying, no matter how you interpret? Yes, but not everything, that's for sure. It is certainly a primarily me thing to interpret his walk from Trozen to Athens as the stroll of a serial killer. But frankly, I just think it's more fun to interpret it that way, and this is my show, so I do. But no shame to people who love Theseus, who want to love him or see him as a good hero, a founder of Athens. More power to you. Just don't try to justify the Helen thing, okay? Like, that one's not okay, regardless. But we'll get there, don't worry.

• 11:15Liv Albert?

  Now, when it comes to Jason, there are definitely fewer things that he himself does that can be interpreted as good and valiant. Because while mostly he's just fucking boring, but he is vital to the story of the Argo and the Argonauts. And without Jason, we wouldn't have the story of Medea, and then where would we be? So same with Jason. If you want to love him or see good in him, have at it. I enjoy shit-talking him. It's fun. I wanted to get that out of the way, because I do think there are some arguments to be made in favor of these two men. Like, if one wishes to make the arguments. I do not, but I try to give you all the facts when I can. Facts accompanied by my own opinions on people like shitty Theseus and shitty Jason. But you can make your own call. You can do your own research if you so will.

• 11:57Liv Albert?

  I, I will, however, continue to think that these men are trash. Which is why we're here today, because these men are trash and it is fun to take out the trash. Okay, I mean, it's not actually, but this is a metaphor. Now, like I said, I really want to do this episode mostly off of memory, because I am entirely and completely overwhelmed by my Spartan research and my brain is simply, it's stuck there, I can't get out. ADHD, phew! But I needed one more episode to cap off this year, so here we are. If you want my usual deeply researched, if still biased against Theseus and Jason, episodes, then you can listen back to many, many past episodes that I've done covering these two men in immense and highly researched detail. This is not that episode.

• 12:41Liv Albert?

  This is a nonsense episode where I list out the bullshit things that they did, hope I remember them all off the top of my head, and then pass judgment on who of them is the worst, before I share a number of fine and hilarious tweets that you all submitted as to why you think one of them is worse than the other. This is a fun episode of silliness. Do not take it as mythologically accurate. This one's for me. So let's begin, shall we?

• 13:10Liv Albert?

  I'm not gonna pretend that I don't already know who I believe is worse, because I have made it completely and endlessly clear that I think Theseus is the worst hero for a whole host of reasons. Instead, we're going to examine what Jason did as well, and pass judgment on his nonsense, before moving on to the man himself: Theseus the Ruinous. And then I will pretend to weigh out the options before I, obviously, determine that, at least to me, who, you know, the arbiter of such things, that Theseus is indeed the worst. Because of course he is. Now Jason didn't start out all bad. He was put in a tricky situation: sent to retrieve the golden fleece from an impossible location, because a king wanted him dead. We all know that story, it's common trope amongst heroes.

• 13:53Liv Albert?

  If someone wants you dead because you pose a threat to their power, I'm looking at you, Heracles, then that person is going to send you on a quest that no mortal man could accomplish. But fortunately, with the help of some gods or godly ability, you're gonna succeed! And that person who sent you in the first place is gonna look very silly. Or end up dead. And that is precisely how Jason begins his story. He's sent in search of this golden fleece, literally just the fleece from a golden ram, thrilling stuff, but it's in Colchis, far off in the east, where, very not Greek, and thus barbarous. But it's fine, because Jason's got Hera on his side. Now, this part is interesting, and honestly, not very relevant to the argument for who

• 14:37Liv Albert?

  is the worst, but the best part of this episode being deeply not researched and simply stream of consciousness nonsense is that I'm still gonna point out how unique it is for Hera to choose to help a hero. Now, this is in part because Jason is not the son of a god, particularly, he is not the son of Zeus, and some other woman is not Hera, and thus Hera doesn't have to hate him, but still, it's interesting that it's she who helps him, because typically, it's Athena. We can almost always count on it being Athena. Anyway, I just enjoyed that bit. Another unique thing about Jason, and definitely part of the argument for him being the worst, is that, unlike the other heroes, he doesn't really do anything alone. He puts together an enormous crew of all the most important and famous heroes of the

• 15:21Liv Albert?

  time, and I say of the time, because who exactly is on the soon-to-be-named Argo alongside Jason varies greatly, depending on the source and the time period in which that source is writing. In fact, in some versions, even Theseus himself is amongst those heroes assembled to join Jason on his quest. Sometimes even, "Gasp, there's a woman at Atlantis." But it's not super relevant who is with him, the point is that, boy, oh, boy, is he never alone, and basically does nothing for himself, ever. The story of Jason and the Argonauts is a story of Jason being the captain of a ship

• 16:00Liv Albert?

  who relies on his heroic crew to do everything for him, as he is useless. Along the journey, we get a story full of heroes doing things to save the ship, to save people they encounter, to defeat monsters, etc., and Jason does very little along the way. But one of the things he does do, though, is when they land on the island of Lemnos.

• 16:43Liv Albert?

  When Jason and the Argonauts land on the island of Lemnos, they meet the Lemni and women. These are the women of the island who, it seems, have fairly recently killed all the men on the island because they told them they were smelly? Is this the whole inaccurate story? No, I don't think so, but this episode is ridiculous and it's all I can remember off the top of my head. Like, there was something about a scent. I've actually decided I actively don't want to look anything up because it's more fun for us all. Provided you all remember that I am not looking anything up and I am going entirely off of my own memory for this episode and do not quote me on any of this shit. Do not use this episode for any academic classes. Don't do it. If you do, I take no responsibility for everything you get wrong. This is an end-of-the-year Liv is going slowly mad episode and it is not to be taken seriously.

• 17:28Liv Albert?

  I've warned you. Anyway, the long and short of Jason and the Argonauts on the island of Lemnos is that Jason, apparently, falls in love with the queen there, Hypsipoly. He and Hypsipoly are together for a while. They even have a child together. But eventually, for reasons I cannot remember but which probably make Jason look bad, he just leaves Lemnos and he and the Argonauts leave all the women behind. Some versions, if I recall, also suggest that basically all of the Argonauts fathered children with all of the Lemni and women, and that's how they repopulated the island? Weird-ass myth. I love it. Regardless, the point is that Jason leaves Hypsipoly behind, along with their child, and never thinks of her again because he's such a good guy!

• 18:12Liv Albert?

  There's more travels, more of Jason passing the buck and basically doing and accomplishing nothing for himself, before finally they reach the land in the east where the Golden Fleece is being held: Colchis. There, the king is Aetes and he is the child of the sun itself. Also, he's an enormous and dangerous dickhead with a badass daughter named Medea.

• 18:35Liv Albert?

  Before long, Medea is influenced by the gods to fall in love with Jason. This is the part I always want to make super clear because it's pretty crystal clear in most, if not all, of the sources. Medea does not fall for Jason naturally, of her own free will. She does it because Hera, who is attempting to help Jason succeed in every way possible, has Aphrodite and Eros force Medea to fall in love with him. And boy, does she. I have such a visceral memory of reading the Argonautica in reading episodes for you guys and getting to the parts where Medea is falling in love and pining and holy fuck, those bits are so good and it's just so clear that it's all divinely influenced by Hera. Fascinating. Also, stream of consciousness, ADHD time, I spoke with Helen Lovett for the podcast

• 19:20Liv Albert?

  in an episode that will be coming out shortly after my Spartan series wraps up in the new year. And Helen literally wrote the book on the Argonauts. All the versions throughout time, like up till now, any talk of the Argonauts, it's in this book. Oh my gosh, we had so much fun talking about Jason and the Argo. Cannot wait for y'all to hear that episode. But that's not what today is about. Jason, Medea, and the mess they're about to get into. So Medea falls for Jason specifically so that she can help him succeed in his quest for the fleece and efforts to avoid all the many ways that the King Aetes is trying to make Jason fail and/or die. And gods, Medea does just that. Time after time, Jason succeeds in the things Aetes has him do because Medea explicitly

• 20:01Liv Albert?

  helps him, either physically or through magic, because she's a badass witchy lady. These are also really the only moments in Jason's life where he actually does anything that could be deemed heroic, except if you break it down, like, does it? Does he really do anything if he only manages because Medea helps him? No, I think not.

• 20:21Liv Albert?

  Alright, I'm going way too far into detail here. We've still got to get to the King of Assholes, Theseus. So flash forward and any more of Medea helping Jason at her expense, be it the time she had to kill her brother to distract her father so they could escape, or the time she restored Jason's father to life and then killed the people who'd been bad to him, like, Medea repeatedly helps Jason in ways that are so unique to Medea. Jason would have died countless times if it weren't for her and the other Argonauts, just like so many times.

• 20:49Liv Albert?

  And then finally, they end up in Corinth. Oh, and by now, they're basically married, like, in the eyes of the world and the gods, they're married. But there's no legal thing, because this is the ancient world and Medea isn't Greek. Plus, I mean, they got together under somewhat unique circumstances. Regardless, for all intents and purposes, they're married, and they have children, two sons. And they live happily together in Corinth for a while, like, long enough for the boys to grow to children, like, there may be five or six. I don't know, they could be older. They're a big happy family. Until Jason gets bored, gets bored and decides he doesn't want Medea anymore. She's boring to him, I guess, and maybe she's murdered way too many people on his behalf? That's on him, though. Or maybe he's just a bigot and decides that he no longer wants to deal with the stigma of being married to a barbarian woman. He wants to marry a Greek woman.

• 21:34Liv Albert?

  Whatever the reason, he's a piece of shit, and he makes a deal with the king of Corinth, and he sets out to marry the princess. Even though he's literally already married with children to Medea. Details, details, he's gonna marry the princess of Corinth. We all know how this ends, like, so let's not dwell on what Medea does next, it's not the point. The point is all the varied bullshits that are Jason of Iolcus. Two different women he abandoned because, like, maybe he got bored? I think at best he got bored, and at worst, he's a racist piece of shit who didn't care that by leaving Medea, he was leaving her and their children to be completely ruined. Like, as a non-Greek, she would have no claim to anything, and she and her children would be left completely penniless and without a home or people. It's not like leaving a spouse today, and not even like leaving a spouse who's also Greek. There's just, there's so much horrifying bullshit there.

• 22:20Liv Albert?

  Who, do you want to know more? Listen to the episodes on Medea and Jason, because, oh, there's so much more, and I go into it. But yeah, okay, so he abandoned two women, and certainly with Medea, he also influenced her to commit a whole host of murders on his behalf. And he generally did shit all with the Argonauts and left all of the heroism up to them. He's a pretty, just shitty guy, just useless, totally incompetent. But incompetent in a dangerous and nefarious way. It's good times. But, in my opinion, he is no Theseus.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department, ever, so carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 Brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want. Only at Whole Foods Market.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone. And including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract, and enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 24:22Liv Albert?

  Ugh, Theseus, Theseus, Theseus. Now, this one will have to go much faster because there's just so much more to talk about. So many more crimes, so many more crimes. Theseus starts off his life with a bang. He travels from his home, Entrosen, to Athens, where he's learned that his father is the king there. Along the stroll between the two cities, look over the Corinthian Ithmus and into Attica, Theseus kills a bunch of guys. They actually, there's a bridge, or like a tunnel, like through the mountain. It's little like over, I don't know what to call it, whatever. It's a little thing. It's got a name, though. It's on the drive from Corinth to Athens. I'm gonna forget which guy it's named after, but basically, there's at least one bridge named after one of the guys that Theseus killed along the way. And it makes me so happy every time I drive there.

• 25:06Liv Albert?

  Now, we're to believe that these guys that Theseus killed are bandits who did horrible things. Yes, I've argued that that seems like an awfully big coincidence and actually maybe Theseus is a serial killer, but there's an episode on that. Frankly, though, that's me having some fun, because obviously the myths are meant to have you believe that these men were absolutely dangerous and Theseus did the whole world a favor by killing them. So today, we're not even gonna use that walk as an example of Theseus's awfulness. Like, let's just put it away. That's how much I want to convince you all that Theseus is worse, and how confident I am that he's worse even if you don't consider those bits part of his, like, worseness. Except for there is one bit from that part of his life that gets included, because it's

• 25:49Liv Albert?

  objectively bad and not an interpretation by me. One of the men he killed along the journey had a daughter, and after he's killed her father, Theseus rapes her and impregnates her, and then he leaves, and she's never mentioned again. And thus begins the crux of my argument against Theseus. Regardless of anything heroic he might have done, however you want to interpret it, he rapes and destroys the lives of so many women, I don't believe there can or should be any debate over who's worse. Jason? Yeah, he fucks over Hypsipoly and Medea, for sure, like, for sure. But as far as I can recall, he doesn't actually rape anyone. So like, score, I guess? Theseus, meanwhile. Okay, so first, there's that daughter of one of the bandits.

• 26:34Liv Albert?

  I don't even think she gets a name, it's chill. Then he gets to Athens, he does some varied things that can be interpreted as heroic or otherwise, you can see my past episodes for the "otherwise." And before long, he's on his way to Crete to defeat the Minotaur and return to his father explicitly with different colored sails. When he gets to Crete, he catches the eye of one princess, Ariadne. Now again, we can interpret some of Theseus's actions in different ways here, like, maybe he does fall in love with her like she falls in love with him. Maybe they actually love each other. Let's even go with that, for the sake of argument. They fall in love, and she helps him defeat the Minotaur, a thing he absolutely could not have done without her. Remind you of anyone? Yeah, this is the bit where Theseus and Jason have a lot in common.

• 27:17Liv Albert?

  He defeats the Minotaur, and as promised, he brings Ariadne on his ship with him, home to Athens where he's promised that they'll get married. But along the route, they stop on the island of Naxos. And there, Ariadne is left behind. And again, here, we're gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. There are absolutely versions and interpretations of this story that suggest that Theseus didn't actually mean to leave her behind. Like, maybe he was influenced by a god. Maybe he was forced to leave her behind. There are versions that say that. So, okay, fine. And maybe the grief of that experience is what distracted him enough that he forgot to change the color of his sails, thus causing the death of his father, Aegeus, who killed himself thinking that his son was dead. Okay, maybe that's all true. Maybe Ariadne doesn't even count as a woman who's ruined by Theseus.

• 28:02Liv Albert?

  Can you tell how hard it is for me to say this? Like, as much as those are versions that can be examined, I don't know. He still just feels so ick to me. Like, I'm just not convinced, you know? Because even if those bits are true, I still think they suggest that Theseus is like a less than good dude. Like, even if, like, even if just because letting something like that distract you to the point of causing your father's death is, like, still pretty objectively shitty, but like, okay, fine, let's say those things aren't his fault. Let's allow that for the sake of this argument. Because still, even if we ignore all of that, still, he's the worst. And let me tell you why. Okay, so now that Theseus is, like, still single, for, you know, whatever reason, because we're giving him the benefit of the doubt. Next, he abducts an Amazon, Antiope.

• 28:47Liv Albert?

  He abducts an Amazon, either because he just fucking felt like it, or because he was accompanying Heracles on his quest for Hippolyta's belt and just, like, abducted Antiope along the way? But either way, he fucking abducts an Amazon woman, and then he brings her to his home in Athens, where he rapes and impregnates her with a child. Because he's a piece of shit. And you know, like, I'm pretty sure there are arguments to be made about why this isn't as bad as it sounds, but this isn't one that I'm gonna entertain, because all of them, like, I imagine, would involve pretending that Antiope was not there against her well, but I'm pretty sure she was. Because, I mean, she's abducted from her home, and if I recall, it's pretty explicitly a violent abduction, but also the Amazons wage a war for her.

• 29:29Liv Albert?

  They wage a war against Athens in an attempt to bring her back, which makes it pretty clear to me that she did not want to be there with him. But guess what? Even that isn't enough to make him the worst. He really needs to beat out Jason, like, fully. And he does. Don't worry. Because next, in his life of shittiness, is the time that he and his friend Pyritus decided that they wanted to each marry, huh, a "marry," quote-unquote, "marry," daughters of Zeus, just like, for the hell of it. We don't really get a reason for this desire. It seems like a very toxic masculinity-type situation where they just wanted the thrill of going after women that they absolutely couldn't and shouldn't have. And that's exactly what they do.

• 30:13Liv Albert?

  Theseus selects as his daughter of Zeus, the famous Helen of Sparta. Except she's not famous yet.

• 30:23Liv Albert?

  Because...

• 30:25Liv Albert?

  Because she's fucking nine years old. Nine. Or, who? At the absolute best? If we're giving Theseus all the benefit of the doubt and we're going to his absolute kindest source for this bit of the story, in the whole world, we're just like, we're really trying to find good things with him? Because even then, even then, she's 12. So at best, she's 12, and at worst, she's nine. But, oh, it's okay, because he abducts Helen against her will and then decides, nah, she's too young, so he hides her out in a palace where she can like, get older? Before he marries her? And by marry, I mean, assault? Because also, like, how old is he? Like, he's already done an awful lot of stuff.

• 31:11Liv Albert?

  He's probably, at the absolute best, he's in his early twenties.

• 31:16Liv Albert?

  And, anyway. Uh, yeah. In the meantime, in the meantime, while he's waiting for Helen to get older, except he doesn't think he's gonna wait this long, but, he and Pyrrhus will move on to the next daughter of Zeus that Pyrrhus has selected for himself: Persephone. God, these men are egotistical and stupid assholes. Like, I just don't see how we're supposed to see them any other way. I don't see it. How do you justify thinking that this man is okay? How? Like, I seriously want to know, but also I do not want to have this debate with anyone, because if I just pull out that Helen was the absolute oldest 12 when he abducted her, like, I don't want to hear any response that suggests that that wasn't the worst thing any man in all of Greek mythology has ever done. Can't hear it. Won't listen, so here we are. Anyway, while Helen is getting older than nine, or at best 12,

• 32:00Liv Albert?

  Theseus and Pyrrhus head to the underworld where they intend to abduct Persephone herself. And yeah, obviously, they don't succeed because that's fucking bananas. And instead, they're punished with eternal suffering in the underworld, strapped to chairs and unable to leave, like literally just stuck to chairs. Eventually, Theseus is saved by Heracles, but he basically loses his ass in the process. Like, he's ripped from the seat by force and absolutely has to leave some of himself behind, for sure. Pyrrhus never gets to leave because he was the one who actually wanted to marry, or marry, rape, Persephone. Meanwhile, Theseus just goes on living his life. Even goes on to marry Ariadne's own sister, Phaedra, which again, because I'm giving Theseus as much of the benefit of the doubt as I can muster, we won't even cover Phaedra as one of his crimes.

• 32:46Liv Albert?

  We'll give him that marriage. Helen, of course, you might remember, was never actually... He never actually was with her, uh, because in the time that he was trapped in the underworld, her brothers, the twins, Dios Cori, saved her. Thank fuck. But now, okay, let's really break this down. If we're, if we're sticking with the idea that a number of things Theseus did were actually traditionally heroic, like killing the bandits on route to Athens, or killing the Marathonian bull, or the Minotaur, like, okay. Do all of these accomplishments actually get to offset the time he abducted and raped an Amazon? Or if we even say that Antiope was somehow not there against her will, do any of those things offset the time he explicitly and absolutely without a doubt abducted a nine or 12-year-old with the intention of marrying her?

• 33:31Liv Albert?

  No, no, none of that upsets that. It just doesn't. Sorry, nope, Theseus is the worst. Jason was a piece of shit and absolutely useless and garbagey hero, but guess what? He never tried to marry a child. Nope, he didn't. I could go on. Do I, do I need to? No, I'm only trying to convince myself, and I already am convinced that Theseus is absolutely the worst because while incompetency and generally being a shitty guy is not great, and Jason is absolutely the second shittiest hero of Greek myth, there's no way for him to compete with the guy who tried to marry a child.

• 34:05Liv Albert?

  Way to go, Theseus. You win forever.

• 34:27Liv Albert?

  Guys, I can talk a lot about these men. Like, how am I like this? Anyway, now it's time for your turn to talk. After that hilarious Twitter poll that ended with a clean 50/50, after 8,000-plus people voted for who was worse, Jason or Theseus, I asked some of my lovely Twitter followers to tell me who they thought was worse. And don't worry, I've picked some arguments in favor of Jason. We're being as fair as possible here. Let's see what you hilarious and amazing people had to say, shall we? Okay, we have tweets, but we also have one special voice memo that came to me from Julie Levy,

• 35:08Liv Albert?

  who was on this show in the past, to talk about the asexual characters, Atalanta and Hippolytus. And Julie felt very strongly that they needed to share quite a fervent and detailed rant on Jason, which I think is kind of perfect, because it gives a bit of Jason hate to offset my very skewed Theseus hate. So I will play that for you all, and then we will read some tweets, which were so great. Thank you all for submitting them.

• 35:43Speaker 05

  Okay, let me start off by saying that Theseus sucks. This is a real competition, and I get it. Nobody is trying to exonerate Mr. Dump You on an Island. However... Oh, Jason is so the worst. Jason, just, there's no positives about this man. Like, his claim to fame is tripping and breaking a sandal? Really? So, his dirtbag uncle looks at this no-good Nick with a broken sandal and is like, "Yeah, uh, go die."

• 36:29Speaker 05

  And he does that? Who told him this was a good idea? Yep, I'll just do whatever my dirtbag uncle says. Sure, this is a great plan. Okay, so he gathers up a bunch of heroes and goodness knows how he does this because, I mean, the man has no charisma. And look at the Argonautica, this man is useless. He is crying all the time. He has other people do all the work for him. You just know that after a while on that boat, people were looking for reasons to just kinda not continue because they start to, you know, have some attrition.

• 37:14Speaker 05

  I mean, I understand that Hercules was a bit distraught over his boyfriend being missing, but you know, he could also have been like, yeah, I'll catch up with you. Uh-uh. Did not. Don't blame him because that man, Jason, is just standing in the front of his ship, crying his eyes out over nothing. He doesn't command the ship. He doesn't command the respect. He just, what a waste of space. He distracts this girl Hypsipoli so long that her baby that she's taking care of gets eaten by a snake. What a jerk.

• 37:55Speaker 05

  Okay, so then they get there and Midia has to help him do every goddamn step of this entire plan. She has to come up with the plan, make all the components. And then, you know, okay, so Jason is a good enough fighter to actually carry out the plan. All right, fine, fair. Any rando with enough money can fight. Why does she like him? It's the gods. Who wants a mediocre white man protected by the gods?

• 38:37Speaker 05

  When you could have anybody else. But no, okay, so, fine.

• 38:44Speaker 05

  But then, once she's invested, she's like, I have to protect my investment. And do you know how he gets away?

• 38:56Speaker 05

  He makes Medea cut up her own brother. You know that wasn't her idea. You know it wasn't. So, he manipulates Medea, gets her to commit so hard that she kills her own brother and cuts up his corpse. And then now she is like totally like she's fucked. So, uh, she has to follow him around, go back to this place where he's like, "See Dirtbag Uncle, I did the thing." And Dirtbag Uncle is like, "Cool story, bro, but uh, I spent all that time consolidating my power like a real person."

• 39:40Speaker 05

  Um, so, screw you. And Medea's the one who has to save his butt again.

• 39:50Speaker 05

  It's not Jason who does anything about this, it's Medea. And she's like, "Well, I've already killed my own brother for you, I guess I could kill your uncle."

• 40:03Speaker 05

  Medea, a legit amazing person, absolutely fabulous mystical powers, granddaughter of the sun. And she does this thing, and then Jason won't even stick up for her once she's done it. He lets them be run out of town. That whole thing was supposed to be prophecy about how he would become king of his city, but no. No, he's not there enough to take control. So, they get chased out of their city and they find refuge somewhere else. And what does he do at first possible moment? He dumps Medea.

• 40:48Speaker 05

  He dumps Medea and their two kids, like they're nothing, nothing. And why? Because he has a chance to become heir to the throne. He gets to marry a princess and take over when the old king dies. And he's like, oh, you've served your purpose now. Nothing I want can be given from you anymore, so I'm just gonna, just gonna go. And like, okay. I don't know if you've read the Medea, please do, it is a fabulous piece of work.

• 41:27Speaker 05

  But if you look at how Jason talks to her, it is just like this classic gaslighty speech. And you know he's been doing that all along. You know this is how he convinced her to kill her brother. You know this is how he convinced her to help him try to, to kill his uncle. And he is 100% making it seem like her fault when you can hear in his lawyer ass voice that it was all him. And now he's just like, why don't you, uh, go away? I never wanna see you again. You're a problem now.

• 42:14Speaker 05

  Of course, she is going to be a little bit unhinged after that because think about it. This man took literally everything from her. And what did he give her? A nothing, a nothing. He gave her two children. She does not seem to be the child rearing type.

• 42:38Speaker 05

  But before I get off on a tangent about Medea's particularities, I just wanna come back to the nothing burger that is Jason.

• 42:49Speaker 05

  Like, at least Theseus is out there doin' stuff. At least he's the arrogant, awful jock. But Jason is a personalityless, actionless, hollow man. He has nothing, except for what he steals from other people. And he can't even really do that himself. It's just manipulations and lies. I don't really see much of difference between broken sandal idiot kid Jason and the Jason that stumbles out of the palace at the end of the Medea. I really don't.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  This man has nothing to recommend him. He's the worst.

• 43:43Liv Albert?

  Meanwhile, the tweets. Oh my gosh, you guys had some amazing responses. I'm thrilled. Okay. So, @monica chats says, "If I had to pick one, Theseus is worse. But saying that actually makes me hate Jason more because Jason is definitely the type of dude to slide under the radar and be like, 'See, I'm not that bad,' and then blame all of his bad actions on his quote crazy ex." I've met a lot of Jasons. So have I, Monica. So have I.

• 44:12Liv Albert?

  Okay, and then, past guest of the show, Dr. Kira Jones, @flaviansofist, said, "I voted Jason because while they're both trash, Theseus did, on occasion, probably by accident, some helpful things. Jason has no redeeming factors." "Disagree, but I'm letting you say it. I'll accept it."

• 44:32Liv Albert?

  Okay, myths your teacher hated, another mythology podcast, who's @hardcoremyth, says, "It was tough, but I went with Theseus. From his awful treatment of Ariadne to his callous disregard for his own father, he has very few redeeming qualities, other than stabbed that one monster that one time. Plus, the little twerp killed me a bunch in Hades, so it's personal." Love when you can let a personal video game beef in on the argument. Thank you. All right, another past guest of the show, who, I mean, I don't, I've always wondered how to pronounce, like, her actual Twitter name, because it's like primarily Latin characters with like one Greek

• 45:14Liv Albert?

  character, and it's like, uh, it's a beta, which is like a beta in ancient Greek, but it's a veda in modern Greek. So I'm like, uh, Kate, is it, is it a V or a B? What is, I don't know, I should ask. I haven't. Anyway, uh, her handle is at Amit. Uh, she came on the show to talk about Herodotus in Egypt and the amazing Hippopotamus. Also, she streams video games for Save Ancient Studies Alliance, queen. Uh, Kate says, "That whole ordeal with Helen, a child sealed the deal for me. It has to be Theseus. Also, fuck you Theseus for the Amazons war and for abandoning Ariadne." See, Kate, you know what's up. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. But then, Dr. Anise K. Strong, at Anise K. Strong, replied to Kate, this is the greatest, this Twitter

• 45:59Liv Albert?

  interaction, all of this has been so amazing. So, okay, Dr. Strong replied to Kate and said, "So I hear you, but Theseus for me has the Nixon-esque aspects of having some positive achievements. Law giving in Athens, saving his city from a horrible tribute, etc., whereas Jason persuaded a bunch of dudes to go on a boat trip as his most positive accomplishment." I mean, not wrong. Still, Theseus is worse, but like, not wrong. All right. And then, uh, at Pandora Had A Jar says, "Jason, hands down, he abandoned the woman who killed his father for him, and there is more than a fair bit of racism slash xenophobia there. Plus, Medea deserved so much better. She rode off on a dragon chariot for Olympus's sake. Jason, for sure."

• 46:45Liv Albert?

  Okay, this is so much fun. Uh, and then, none other than Ariadne author herself, Jennifer Saint, of course, friend of the show, she weighed in, how could she not? And she said, "Oh, Liv, what a question. How can it be done?" And then followed up with, "It's Theseus, though." Yeah, yeah, Jenny, it's Theseus, though. All right, and then, uh, at Ava Zar says, "I picked Theseus because I listened to your podcast." And honestly, like, that one, perfection. Like, that's, that's right. That's the right answer. You are paying attention.

• 47:23Liv Albert?

  Okay, at Cath P underscore V2 says, "Almost tossed a coin, but kidnapping a 12-year-old Helen pushed Theseus over the top for me." Yep, that's, that's right.

• 47:35Liv Albert?

  At Farnaby said, "For some reason I read Jason as the guy from the horror movie and went, eh, this is a tough choice." That was just great. Alright, at the underscore Scarfy, uh, Aotearoa Rowan, did I pronounce that right? I don't know how to say that. Aotera? New Zealand? Anyway, um, they said, he said, "Theseus deserved more than just losing his ass for kidnapping a child version of Helen to make her his wife." Thank you. Exactly. Like, this is it. There's just, you know, that's it.

• 48:07Liv Albert?

  And then, at Shona Edwards 2 said, "This debate is proof of the J-name phenomena and that T-names are J-names adjacent." I don't understand all of that, but I love it and I want to know more. Alright, and then the Laura Limpod, the podcast devoted to Laura Olympus, also replied, "Jason is literally the worst, most nothing-nobody I've ever had the displeasure of hearing about. Maybe Theseus is more of a serial killer, but I just can't get past Jason's mediocrity."

• 48:38Liv Albert?

  Jason's mediocrity is real. I will give you that. And then at Ionis Edison said, "Voted Jason. After Madea carried him like a sack of potatoes the whole time, he dumped her on an island for a younger woman." Not an island? Uh, just to be that, I didn't need to correct you, I'm sorry. I'm a dork. Uh, but you're right. You're right. That's shit. I mean, we love Madea. It's the, but the Theseus did the island and Jason did it on the mainland, you know? They're cool dudes. Alright, at Amanda, Amanda Lynn underscore said, "Did they both do heroic things? Sure. Did they both treat the women in their life like shit? Absolutely. But did both of them rape a young woman and abandon her on an island with no way home? No.

• 49:21Liv Albert?

  No, they did not. To the fields of punishment Theseus goes."

• 49:27Liv Albert?

  Okay, at MainadGenderGoodAt said, "I was gonna make a who would win in a fight joke, and then remembered that Theseus probably would because he already had a very, very long track record of murdering people." Yeah, Jason did very little. Didn't kill a single person. Madea did it all for him. At OscarWildExceptTheAIsAnX said, "Theseus, because not even Jason was scummy enough to kidnap a child bride." Uh huh. Yep. And then, last but definitely not least, I think this was my favorite response, it made me actually cackle. At FeedTheWriter said, "I would happily kick both into an active volcano, but I'd

• 50:08Liv Albert?

  hope for Theseus to bounce off some very sharp rocks on the way to the lava." Perfection. That is exactly how I feel. Both are the worst, but if one has to be worse than the other, it's Theseus.

• 50:38Liv Albert?

  Nerds, nerds, nerds. Thank you all for listening to this absolutely unhinged episode where I ramble on about absolute nonsense, just regaling all of you with whatever lives in my memory banks when it comes to Theseus versus Jason, and talking way too quickly and barely editing myself. This was the perfect way to cap off the new episodes for this year, and also just to let me have some fun and not stare at sources and books for hours trying to put together a researched episode while I'm trying to do that with Sparta. Thank you, I needed it. The next couple of weeks are all some fun, re-aired episodes, some favorites and suggestions from Michaela, and some that I just wanted you all to hear again. It'll be fun. You're not gonna be left without some myths, but also I get to attempt to maybe rest and write the Sparta series? And then, don't forget, we've got the New Year Q&A episode coming in January, so get

• 51:23Liv Albert?

  your questions in to me on my website, mythsbaby.com/questions. There's a quick and easy form to submit your questions for me to answer on that episode. I am repeating myself in a wild way, not editing it though. And then, starting January 10th... Sparta. So much Sparta, myth and culture and history and conversations with some amazing people. We are all gonna learn so much and fuck, it's all so interesting. Cannot wait for you all to hear what we've got going. Thank you all, you're the best. Let's finish this ridiculous, but so fun, episode as we always do, with a five star review. Consider leaving me one, would you? I read them all and they make me so happy and also they help keep the podcast like finding

• 52:07Liv Albert?

  new listeners, which in turn keeps me getting paid, which in turn keeps this whole thing going and growing and I'm always happy to be growing and guess what? All of that, all of that, you, you get it all for free. Oh my god, all of that's free for you. Just give me a review. I swear, I am still functioning, kind of. This review comes from Kevin Zuidema in the Netherlands. How fun. Love it, five stars. It's so much fun to listen to and Liv is so funny and good with storytelling, so thank you Liv for making this podcast. Thank you. That is very nice. Let's talk about Myths Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert, who is slowly losing her mind. Michaela Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians, handles so many podcast related things. Michaela's the best.

• 52:49Liv Albert?

  Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions, accessibility. Stephanie's also awesome. The podcast is hosted and monetized by Acast. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron where you'll get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon.com/MythsBaby or click the link in this episode's description. You're all the fucking best. Theseus is definitely the worst. I am Liv and I love this shit quite a bit, just a little bit. I'm fine. Thank you. Happy end of the year.

• 54:50Speaker 06

  Verizon FiOS celebrates the holiday hostess with the mostess. When the whole family's over, you've got Verizon FiOS whole home Wi-Fi. Fast, reliable, 100% fiber internet in every room. So your little nephews can blast video games on full volume. Your daughter can stream football under the dinner table. And grandpa can turn on the same movie for the third time. A full house with full Wi-Fi coverage. So everyone can do their own thing, together. 100% fiber internet for 100% holiday hosts. Switch to Verizon FiOS today. All home Wi-Fi included with all FiOS gig plans. Availability varies.

• 55:23Speaker 04

  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome.

• 55:40Speaker 07

  The much awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart.

• 55:54Speaker 04

  And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 56:07Speaker 07

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.