Failure Throwback: Phoebe Waller Bridge

To mark 500 episodes of How to Fail! To we’re re-releasing the first ever episode with Phoebe Waller Bridge, which originally went out in July 2018. Phoebe Waller-Bridge, creator and star of Fleabag, writer of Killing Eve, superstar feminist and human embodiment of a Star Wars droid, joins How To Fail to talk about how she failed at her 20s (but got lots of brilliant material from the terrible dates she endured), failing at drama school, terrible auditions (including one for Downton Abbey) and how her female best friend is quite possibly the love of her life. She also talks about emotional vulnerability, why women fail at anger and about finding glory in one’s mistakes. There’s a great exchange about whether women should be open about whether or not they want children and a whole segue into the desirability of alabaster foreheads. Oh, and we cover the time Phoebe met Meryl Streep and embarrassed herself horribly, in what might be one of the greatest celebrity anecdotes of all time involving apple crumble. IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction 02:04 Sudden Fame Reality 04:33 RADA And Early Rejection 07:50 Emotional Acting Truth 08:41 Love Life Failures 13:14 Fleabag And Female Voice 18:05 Auditions Power And Ambition 25:37 Creative Lifeline Friendship 26:21 How They Met Vicky 27:40 Muses Not Mistresses 29:15 Women And Anger 30:55 Female Killers Fascination 33:20 The Babies Question 40:54 Feminism And Body Image 44:40 Celebrity Encounters Finale LINKS + MENTIONS: Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com WANT MORE? Dolly Alderton - swap.fm/l/XM98joc3GFEMTsLfkEfR Miranda Hart - swap.fm/l/oTScN30b80GflJtO4rgu LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  Hello and welcome to a special episode because we're celebrating the release of 500, yes, count them, that's five zero zero, episodes of How to Fail. I never could have believed when I started out in 2018 on my own in my little rented flat in North London, in this brave new world of podcasting, that I would still be releasing episodes with the likes of Kristen Scott Thomas, Amelia Clarke, Malala, Rosman Pike, and actual Baz Luhrmann, just a few of my favourites from 2026. Who could have imagined it, a whole eight years later, and here we still are. I am so grateful to all of you for making it possible.

• 0:39Elizabeth Day?

  To mark this milestone, I wanted to revisit the very first episode of How to Fail with my wonderful friend, Phoebe Waller-Bridge. Let's get into it then. This is the very first episode ever of How to Fail, originally released in July 2018.

• 1:02Elizabeth Day?

  Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me. Ernesta makes designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home.

• 1:42Elizabeth Day?

  I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing, and Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernestacom and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernestacom.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Hey, everyone, this is Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. You know what you believe. Maybe your faith is at the centre of your life. Maybe you're still figuring it out. Maybe religion just isn't your thing. Those choices are personal, and in America, they should stay personal. That's why Americans United for Separation of Church and State is fighting for something that affects all of us. The freedom to live as yourself and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. Because religious freedom isn't just about protecting your right to practise or not. And it surely isn't about having one forced government sanctioned religion. It's about protecting your right to say, this is what I believe, while your neighbour

• 2:49Speaker 01

  says, I believe something completely different. And honestly, that's the whole point. If that sounds like the kind of America you want, learn more at au.org/gettingbetter. Because your beliefs are yours, and theirs are theirs.

• 3:10Elizabeth Day?

  My guest this week is the actress, writer, producer, and generally acknowledged feminist superhero, Phoebe Waller-Bridge. She's best known for her starring role in Fleabag, a brilliant foul-mad six-part sitcom, which she adapted from her one-woman Edinburgh show. Fleabag was aired to universal critical acclaim in 2016, and since then, Waller-Bridge has written and produced the psychopathic assassin drama Killing Eve, been invited to the Met Gala, she wore Christopher Kane, and played a droid in a Star Wars spin-off, despite not knowing what a droid was when she auditioned. She's currently busy writing Fleabag 2. In the past, Waller-Bridge has described herself as having a provocative sensibility.

• 3:52Elizabeth Day?

  And although her life so far seems to be one of great professional success, she tells me she's confident there have been enough failures along the way for us to talk about. Hello, Phoebe.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Hi, Elizabeth.

• 4:05Elizabeth Day?

  So you're not only all of these things, but you're also a very loyal and generous and kind friend, and we've known each other since 2014. And in that time, you've become globally famous, and your face has been projected onto massive billboards on Sunset Boulevard. And I just wondered, what was that like?

• 4:24Speaker 02

  It was pretty surreal. I think it was actually the photographs, because it was all in America, that kind of thing. So it was the photos from American friends sending them to me was my first experience of it. And then I did actually go and I didn't actually, I did see a billboard, but I was go, I went past a bus stop and I was actually, I think I might have actually been standing at it and then turned around and I saw my massive face watching me wait for a bus. And that was the most surreal bit, especially as I'm just in floods of tears in the poster.

• 4:53Elizabeth Day?

  Do you mind seeing your face? I know that's a weird question, but.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, I had to really get over it when I was editing Fleabag, because there's a lot of face in that, pretty much every frame. And that was difficult. It's everything you try and ignore the rest of your life, you then see relentlessly on screen, day in, day out, when you're editing. I think you sort of get used to it. I see her as a slightly different person, I think.

• 5:19Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think you're good at being a famous person?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think I felt at the beginning, when people first started recognising me after Fleabag, it was different from when people recognised me off like just a TV show, because it was so mine, Fleabag, because I'd written it. And that gave me a different feeling, whereas before, when I was doing Broadchurch and people would just be like, oh, you're the bitch lawyer off of Broadchurch? And I'm like, yes, I am, thank you so much. But I've got karma about it, since it's my own work and my own writing. Because I think people come up and say, I like what you created, rather than I recognise you, I own you in some way, because you've been in my living room in some way and you're... I suppose, yeah, I'm quite good at the parties.

• 6:05Elizabeth Day?

  Do you ever get that thing where you're sitting in a cafe with a friend and you, out of the corner of your eye, see someone trying to take a photo of you on their smartphone?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  That happens on the Tube quite a lot. And actually, Vicky, my best friend, is really good at spotting when that happens. So she's always like, fan, fan, fan. And I'm always like, I mean, like, nine times out of 10, they're not a fan, they're just somebody who's like on their phone. But occasionally, you see it hover up, and that's the creepiest feeling, actually.

• 6:33Elizabeth Day?

  So Fleabag sort of rose out of a failure, not your own failure, but it arose out of the failure for interesting parts to be offered to you as a young woman. Is that right?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Well, I'd say it felt like my failure, because I'd left drama school and nobody was interested. So I felt like all that energy that goes into the graduation and then suddenly you're propelled out into the world as this new young actress, and no one cares. And you sort of think, what am I doing wrong? But there's so much literature and gossip and chat about why you won't be successful in this industry. I felt sort of fortified to a certain extent, like, I know it's not going to be easy, but it still hurts when you leave and there's, there's not much going on.

• 7:20Elizabeth Day?

  Talk to me a bit about your experience at RADA. I mean, you said there that there was a lot of chat about why you weren't going to succeed. Was that something, because RADA's sort of known for breaking you down and then building you back up, isn't it?

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they probably encourage failure, actually, in terms of your experience. It was difficult. I did find it difficult, because I, I went in with the imagination to cast myself as a very old lady, or a kind of rude girl, or a, something that isn't my natural casting. And those are two roles that I ended up casting myself in for the showcase at the end, which also proved glorious failures.

• 7:58Elizabeth Day?

  You was a rude girl?

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Yes, I can't even believe I'm saying rude girl. I mean, it just feels like so 90s. Is that ever really a thing that anyone outside the middle class has said? Yeah, so I cast myself as those sort of roles, because I wanted to be a character actress. I wanted to play the stranger, quirkier roles. That's why I loved acting, that's why I love stories. And then I did feel like in the machine of drama school and being a 19-year-old going in, it was very much like you should aim for the Shakespearean lead, young female parts. And there's huge, huge competition for those sorts of roles. And with my instinct, which was always to, I don't know, like undercut things or be funny, didn't wash so well with those roles that they do with the quirkier side roles. So I did find it quite hard. And actually, towards the end, I had a kind of tete a tete with the principal, when I

• 8:45Speaker 02

  was like, you need to think outside the box a bit with these parts, because I've already been bathed naked, I've already been like crying a lot. And those parts felt quite repetitive, like all the young female parts are either, yeah, having abortions or crying. And I was like, I want something a bit different. And then he was like, okay, fine. And then he cast me as a transvestite prostitute, like I had a beard and a penis strapped on, and thigh-high boots. And actually, I asked Che Walker, who was directing it, it was Bar Mengelead, and this character doesn't exist in Bar Mengelead, the play. And Che Walker wrote it for me, he wrote this monologue for me. That was really fun, because that was something different.

• 9:22Elizabeth Day?

  It was like the principal took what you said and was like, fine, let's throw everything at him.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  It's like he'd gone, fuck you, you want, you want to be stretched. And I was like, that's not so much of a stretch. It's more of a stretch to play the kind of earnest lead for me. I find I I found that very, very hard. And I really, really admire actresses that can play pure emotion without any irony relentlessly, without any humour in it at all. I find that the actresses that can do that are incredible. It's just not really my strength.

• 9:50Elizabeth Day?

  Because I remember you once saying to me that actually the hardest part of filming Fleabag was not the overt sexual scenes. It wasn't you having a wank at Barack Obama.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  No, fine, easy.

• 10:01Elizabeth Day?

  Those are fine. It was actually the more emotional, vulnerable part. So you had to expose yourself psychologically.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And that's always the bit. I mean, everything has to feel truthful, but you know, even as an audience member, that you want to be moved by believing something's real. And it's very straightforward, that contract with the audience, which is I'll make you believe me. And to be able to go to emotional places that you haven't necessarily been to in your life before, the pressure is more there. But then when you get there, when you feel it, when you touch that it's authentic in you, that's when the real rush of acting comes.

• 10:33Elizabeth Day?

  And a lot of Fleabag stemmed from autobiographical experience, even if she is not an autobiographical character. Do you think you failed at relationships in your twenties?

• 10:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yes, gloriously. I mean, I think even when you first said to me, this is a podcast about failure, I I could feel, because you're such a positive person, I could already feel the glory of what you meant there, like, what's the glory in failure? And I think fighting so hard to be so in love with someone with all that passion in your twenties and teens, and then throwing everything at it, and then it not working, or like there being so much pain, or and that is the stuff that so much creativity comes out of. So out of those painful breakups or miscommunications, or just horrible sticky one night stands, or whatever it is, something you grow in those moments. And so I value them all.

• 11:27Elizabeth Day?

  A sticky one night stand. It's the best expression ever.

• 11:32Elizabeth Day?

  The next day's stickiness, as you get back into the knickers.

• 11:37Elizabeth Day?

  Can you think of the worst date you've ever been on? Or the worst one night stand?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Let me flick through my diary.

• 11:43Elizabeth Day?

  Your rolodex, your extensive rolodex.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  I wish I had a date diary. And that actually would be proved very useful now. The worst date I ever had, there's just the ones where you just don't click at all. And you feel yourself just sort of falling slowly into a chasm of boring the other person to tears. I don't know. There was one when I, there was a guy, I'd, we had a couple of dates, and then he'd stayed over. And the next morning, it was quite clear to me that like, this wasn't going to go anywhere. And I think for him as well. But a song that I really love is Etta James's At Last. I'm always singing it like, it's just the earworm that I always have. And I remember I was walking, I was living in a flat that was really on like a fifth floor or something. I was walking down the stairs and I was walking in front

• 12:29Speaker 02

  of him as we were going to go for breakfast or whatever. And I was singing At Last, all the way down the stairs. And like, my love has come along. And when we got to the bottom stairs, he was like ash and faced and like shaking. And I was like, what? And he was like, um, I didn't realise this had meant so much to you. I was like, oh, God, no, God, no, no. Um, that was, that was pretty dire. That led on to a very, an awkward breakfast. I mean, they all sort of feel gloriously muddy. See if I can think of another one as we go along.

• 13:02Elizabeth Day?

  Are you glad that you don't have to live your twenties again?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yes. Like, there's a brilliant line in Girls, when she goes, you couldn't pay me to be, one of the characters in the first series says, you couldn't pay me to be twenty again. And then I think Lena Dunne's character says, well, they didn't pay me anything at all to be in my twenties. I love that line so much. Yeah, I feel like I did it. I committed to it. I'd really like to have the skin from my twenties, but I prefer my heart and my guts now.

• 13:27Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, your skin's amazing. That sounds like such a creepy thing for me to say right now. But you're bathed in the evening sunlight of East London.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  Do you remember when we got quite pissed off one night and I was going, I used to have a porcelain forehead.

• 13:40Elizabeth Day?

  Alabaster.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Alabaster. Alabaster. But then even that kind of stuff, like, women can be so haunted by or hunted by as they get older, because we're taught to be hunted by it as we get older. There's so much humour in that. And there's so much life in that kind of stuff. And it's the gloom of self-loathing that was supposed to grow around us as we get older and start fearing that our value is diminishing, has been the opposite experience for me, actually. You know, as, as all that kind of stuff comes, you realise, actually, no, this is just, there's a, there's a, I feel like there's a message from society and billboards and all that kind of stuff that is teaching us to sort of hate ourselves. And I've always felt like that was a kind of way of controlling us. And the moment I realised that, I was like, oh, you're just trying to control me. And then that flicked my rebellious switch

• 14:25Speaker 02

  even more. And now I just feel way more fierce than I ever did in my twenties.

• 14:29Elizabeth Day?

  When you say it's a question of control, do you think it's control that stems from men having been in charge?

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can't imagine that women en masse, operating at that level, would want to peddle the same message. So I think so. But I think it's something we've become so used to. I think that's the problem. That I don't think that it's every man in the world saying that this is an impossible standard that women should live up to. I think actually, I mean, it's probably like sinks in somewhere, because it's something that we're so conscious of all the time as women, and probably on some level, men are as well. But I feel like it's just a habit that we need to break. And I have faith that we will, as more women climb higher up that pole.

• 15:09Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Dance, swing higher up that pole as we do.

• 15:12Elizabeth Day?

  We reclaim the pole. Um, do you, do you feel, because Fleabag has been so totemic for so many women, particularly young women in their twenties.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  Didn't say pole, she said totem. So much classy away. I've been, I've been swinging my body around that totem as much as I possibly can.

• 15:30Elizabeth Day?

  We've heard they're both valid symbols, and we should rethink the whole fallacy of this conversation. But it's patriarchy. What can we do? We're operating within the system. But it is totemic. And I imagine you get lots of twenty somethings feeling a bit lost, coming to you for advice or wisdom. And I, I wonder if you feel the pressure of that?

• 15:50Speaker 02

  I don't feel the pressure of it, because I feel like it's not about advice or wisdom. It's about people feeling seen and people feeling heard. And it's more people coming up and going, I am Fleabag, or I understand that. And it's men as well. But I feel like it's the duality of that character that has spoken to women in particular, which is the front that we have, which is we're totally in control, and we have our nice haircuts and our red lipstick. And underneath, like, we have no idea what's going on. We contradict ourselves relentlessly. We have dark, perverted thoughts, and then we sanitise them, even for ourselves. And we have impulses that are very similar to the narrative of male impulses. And yet, they're not spoken about so much. I felt it was cathartic for me to

• 16:33Speaker 02

  have so many people say, oh, that's like me. Because, to be honest, I was writing it and with, you know, my theatre company, Dry Right, and with five of us women creating that show, through the producer and the stage manager, and Izzo, my sister, the composer, and Vicky, the director, it felt so relevant to all of us and so funny for all of us. Like, every time that I'd be like playing around with something, if they laughed, I was like, okay, I'm not alone. And it was a conversation that we had just before it went up to Edinburgh. And I was like, if this fails, keeping on point, if this fails, then it essentially means that we're alone. Because it feels so right for us. And so the fact that it caught on and people could relate to it, made us all feel less lonely and, and me too.

• 17:15Elizabeth Day?

  I think you're so right, though, because I think so much of culture has been dominated by the male voice, literature, the male gaze in cinema. And what Fleabag did, and also what you do in a lot of your other projects, is you're honest about female experience and female rage, and not deliberately being salacious. But the fact that you talked really openly about masturbation, and that you did have that scene where Fleabag, the character, was wanking to a speech by Barack Obama, was instantly relatable. And I wonder if you've always been like that, that you've always spoken openly about this, like even when you were little? I mean, when you started masturbating, it wasn't a question about that.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  My first family masturbation chat was when I was six. Um, yeah, I think I have. I think I've already always got a kick out of saying something that is truthful, yet feels taboo. I'm not interested in sort of gratuitous chat or saying anything to shock, because usually that stuff feels false. And you can sense it. But to call the elephant in the room, yeah, has always been a pastime. And something that I feel energised by, I think. But it was so strange. After Fleabag came out, a woman wrote me a letter and said, I knew your grandmother. And my grandmother died when, you know, I was just about pre-teens. So I, and I knew her, and I loved her, but I didn't really know that much about her

• 18:38Speaker 02

  character. And for me, she was a very prim and proper lady. And when I went to go and meet Mary, who was friends with her, she said the incredible thing about her memory of Jill was that she would always say the shocking truth in a situation. She was always the person who was swearing when no one else was allowed to swear. And she'd get, and you know, and that was such a huge part of her personality. And I was like, oh, maybe there is a family trait in there somewhere.

• 19:02Elizabeth Day?

  And has that ever got you into trouble? Like, what were you like at school?

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it plays into that duality, I think, that I play with, with Fleabag, because I remember my mum saying to me when I first went to secondary school, she said, she was like, just be an angel for the first three terms. If you are an angel for the first three terms, you'll get away with anything you want for the rest of your school career. And I really took that to heart. And I was, and I made sure, like, I worked hard, I got the, I don't know, little like badges or whatever you got, but the whole time, just basically saying to my mates, if I nail this, then I can, you know, take anyone down later. And it was so true, because then I just had the reputation of being a hardworking student. And I was a massive practical joker. And the cheekiness that also my mother had bred in me, was brilliantly offset by the lesson to like, appear to be a good girl, and then you'll get away with being a bad girl.

• 19:53Elizabeth Day?

  So genius.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  But it just made everything way more fun, because it's the plan, you know? If you, you don't want to be good just for a good student for the sake of being a good student, if you know that your goal is so that you can get away with being mischievous later on.

• 20:09Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help

• 20:50Elizabeth Day?

  your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Hey, everyone. This is Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. You know what you believe. Maybe your faith is at the centre of your life. Maybe you're still figuring it out. Maybe religion just isn't your thing. Those choices are personal, and in America, they should stay personal. That's why Americans United for Separation of Church and State is fighting for something that affects all of us. The freedom to live as yourself and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. Because religious freedom isn't just about protecting your right to practise or not. And it surely isn't about having one forced government sanctioned religion. It's about protecting your right to say,

• 21:48Speaker 01

  this is what I believe, while your neighbour says, I believe something completely different. And honestly, that's the whole point. If that sounds like the kind of America you want, learn more at au.org/gettingbetter. Because your beliefs are yours, and theirs are theirs.

• 22:11Elizabeth Day?

  Although you now create your own material brilliantly, you did start out as an actress. And one of the things that always impresses me about actors is that they have to go through the audition process again and again and again, no matter how famous you are. And how that must acquaint you with a certain degree of failure and having to leave yourself open to other people failing you. As in, the people who are casting or not casting you. They might just say, you're not right for this role. How do you deal with that?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, when you first told me about this podcast, I was like, my god, my life, my life has been, especially since I graduated from drama school. Anyway, it's been a series of brutal failures. And that's just become a way of life. Everyone tells you the rejection, you have to like, prepare yourself for the rejection. And it's heartbreaking, because you just, sometimes you fall in love with the part, obviously, but then sometimes you just want to work, you just so desperately want to work and get better at what you're doing. And you can't do that. You can't practise acting at home like you can an instrument. I mean, you can try, but you need an audience. You need somebody to riff off. And that's really all I wanted to do when I first came out. I just wanted to do it all the time. And it was hard, because it was like, the industry just saying, you're not allowed to do it yet, you're not allowed to do it yet, you're not allowed to do it yet. And so the thing I love doing more than anything else, I

• 23:21Speaker 02

  couldn't do on my own. Unless I, I'd like to say that I did endless monologues in my bedroom on my own, but I really didn't. But that just quickly became a way of life. And actually, it was that, it was the relentlessness of the no's, and also the silences of, you know, you're up against hundreds and hundreds, not thousands of other actresses for a single part in a TV comedy, that is essentially a part that you have to be hot for. So that's kind of what it felt like when I first came out of drama school. But it was actually in the face of the emptiness is when I first started writing and creating my own work. So the failure of that, and feeling like I didn't belong in the industry in some way, because I was trying to fit into all these other boxes. And then eventually I was like,

• 24:06Speaker 02

  I've got to practise what I preached and write the part that I'm saying I'm not reading.

• 24:10Elizabeth Day?

  Was there one particularly nauseating audition that sticks in the mind?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Well, a funny one that taught me a lot was the Downton Abbey audition, because I went in for a part, and I read the script. And this part was heartbreaking and sincere already. I was like, oh shit, I can't do that. I was like, you know, and I felt, I felt her, but there wasn't much humour in the, in the role. But I was like, that's, that's okay, I'm just going to play her really straight. So I went into the audition, I played it incredibly straight. And by the end of my reading, the director was laughing. And he went, I had no idea this character was funny. But I had done nothing to try and make it funny. I was like, I was just trying to be serious. And, and I left there

• 24:57Speaker 02

  being like, that was a strange experience. I mean, they're all mortifying, all auditions, just the kind of facade of them, the fact that everyone's awkward. And now being on the other side of it as well, and auditioning other people, it's so hard to just have that sense of being able to level with people going, this is weird, I'm going to sit in front of you with absolutely no aid, other than this script, which I'm not really supposed to be holding anyway, and pretend at you that I'm this person that you have dreamt up in your head. I just think the whole thing's excruciating. But I'm not sure, I'm not comfortable with not auditioning for things, because I think it's so much about the chemistry in the room with the people you're about to work with. So it's a kind of mixture of what we need and what we dread.

• 25:36Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  Out of a situation.

• 25:38Elizabeth Day?

  God, it's just like life.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Yes. Constantly trying to convince people that you're one thing. And actually just desperate for someone to say, that's all right, we all know we're all the other thing. But it's that game we play. And again, there is energy in that. Like, you do feel like, there is something adrenalineising about going into an audition that is thrilling. But it's the prep, it's the preparation for it that's, you know, and I felt for so long, and this might, just, I'm sure it's not just me, but I did feel for so long, I just woke up one day, I went, my god, I spend 70% of my audition prep time, working out what I'm going to wear, what I'm going to look like, what I'm gonna, like, my, my hair, my makeup and stuff. And it's always been the auditions that I've sort of not had time to do that or something. And I've just gone in just with my raw instinct, and they're, they're the ones that often come off. So it's another lesson in just drop

• 26:23Speaker 02

  the superficial kind of awareness. Yeah.

• 26:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. We're speaking in a post Weinstein world. Have you ever experienced the casting couch dynamic?

• 26:32Speaker 02

  No, no. I can't imagine a very British situation. It was like, would you pop that off? I haven't. I was so aware of it when I was coming out of drama school, because everyone's, again, warning you about that kind of thing. But at the professional level that I was working at, or wanting to try and get in at that level, it would be unusual. There are too many people in the room. I think it was when you got to the very incredibly high level, when people have all the power and they're warping it, and they're exploiting it. I luckily never subjected to that.

• 27:05Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever sexually exploited anyone?

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Well, daily, yes. This morning particularly. But I have had people say things to me that are definitely inappropriate. But because I've been so aware of it, because I've been so aware of the power of calling things in a room. I mean, I do feel like, when I read the stories, I do feel so horrified and so lucky that I didn't get wrapped up in that, or didn't, that I wasn't confronted with that as an actress. But I fear it was mainly because I just wasn't getting that many jobs or auditions, you know? And I think it's the incredibly successful, or the incredibly beautiful young girls that come out and, and can just be exploited so quickly. I just sort of wasn't, wasn't one of those.

• 27:45Elizabeth Day?

  Do you ever feel like an imposter? End of question. That was it. That was it.

• 27:53Elizabeth Day?

  Because I think that's something that afflicts many successful women. This sense that they don't deserve to be there, or there's just some massive fraud that's been perpetrated on the public, that means that they win up after. But do you feel that?

• 28:08Speaker 02

  I have moments of it, but overall, no. I feel like I have a right to have a shot at this industry. I have a right to have a shot at writing, creating and acting. I really believe in the, in the competition of it. I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of cynicism around why certain people get certain roles. But it's also, it's the game, and you have to know what the game is. And I already know that I'm massively privileged in the sense that I had a good education, I was exposed to kind of dramery clubs. You know, I had two parents that loved me and encouraged me. I went to RADA. I had choices. And I was set up to succeed in so many ways. And then the industry is a different ballgame. And once you're into it, it doesn't feel that straightforward

• 28:50Speaker 02

  anymore. And that's when I really discovered my ambition. Because I was like, I feel like I have a place here. And I feel like I have stories to tell. I feel like I have performances to give. And if someone's not going to give them to me, I'll fucking go out there and do it on my own. And that sounds like a sort of war cry, but it was something that I've always had, I think, which is, I will do my best to do it anyway, and just really hope that people respond. And I know that there's a kind of false modesty and like, I can't believe I've had this. And sometimes it's not false, because sometimes I do feel incredibly lucky. And I think the kind of series of accidents, or whatever it was, that led to success that I've had, even if it's been like, my ambition and my writing something, colliding with a zeitgeist, which is what felt like happened with Fleabag.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  I met Vicky, who, you know, is my creative partner in, in life and my best, best friend. And she was the real catalyst of change. I can't just say, I just sat down and wrote a play. It was like, no, I met somebody who changed my life and gave me a sense of confidence and fearlessness. Because I was like, if I've got her and I fail, she'll be there with me and she'll laugh it out. And she'll be like, well, you did what you do. And if they don't like it, then they don't like it. Let's try something else.

• 30:04Elizabeth Day?

  Do you know what I love about that? Is that you have described what many people would conventionally think of as the perfect romantic relationship. And it's actually the greatest friend in your life.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we joke about that with each other, that we're the loves of each other's lives. And the other loves that come in are our, like, we're each other's wives, and the men in our lives are our mistresses. And it really did feel like that. It is the most romantic story. We met, I approached her in a bar. She'd been directing my boyfriend at the time and she was at the bar downstairs and I approached her and said, if you ever need an actress for anything, please, will you put me in it? And unlike everyone else in the industry who's instinctively suspicious of someone coming up to you in a bar and saying, I'm an actor, of course you are, I mean, we're like rats, we're like everywhere. But she just had her response was, how exciting, you want to be an actress, that's amazing. And I'm like, yes.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  And she was like, my god, of course. And then she did cast me in something six months later, which ended up being like the most disastrous experience of all time, but which she got fired and I quit from that because she was basically being a genius and saving the play and the woman who was running it was sort of nod, thank you. And and so Vicky ended up being fired, then I quit. And then that night we um we went for a drink, which I suppose is our first official date. And we discussed what we love about theatre and stories and what we love about being an audience, mainly what we love about being an audience and how we want to create that kind of work for ourselves. Yeah, we've just never doubted each other and never doubted each other's presence in each other's lives. And she's been a huge, huge part of anything good that's come out of my career. And that is why I probably don't feel like an imposter as well, because I feel like it can be quite a lonely industry.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  And I feel very, very lucky that I found my partner in crime. And, you know, we hadn't seen each other recently in like quite a few weeks because we'd been working on our separate things. And we met up just for a drink. And in that drink, it was like we spent three hours with each other. We ended up having to like ask the waiter for a notepad and a pen and everything because just out of hanging out with each other, we just started, we just wanted to draw each other, yes. But we just wanted to start writing again and start coming up with ideas again. That's when we realised that it's even like grosser than being each other's loves of our lives. We're like, we are actually each other's muses. We were like, we need to we need to do this more for our own creative life. So that's the reason that I probably don't feel like an imposter.

• 32:22Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think that you need a romantic relationship beyond that? Like, do you think if in an alternative universe, you were never going to have a romantic relationship again, but you had your friendship with Vicky and friendship with other women?

• 32:37Speaker 02

  I mean, yes, because it's such a huge other part of my life. And obviously, like, we just don't sort of want to snog each other.

• 32:46Elizabeth Day?

  That was going to be my next question.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  We've learned, no, I mean, it's it's a purer thing. It's of the heart and of the brain. Yeah, I mean, and also because that's our friendship, that's our life. We need something to bloody talk about with each other and outside of work. But I do feel incredibly secure, I feel like with her. And so love in any other shape or form is a wonderful bonus and fills another part of me, so to speak. But yeah. Yeah, of course. I want, you know, you want the whole spectrum of love in your life, I think.

• 33:19Elizabeth Day?

  Um, I want to do that really annoying journalist thing where I read a quote to you that you gave.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Oh, Jesus.

• 33:24Elizabeth Day?

  To an interviewer who happens to be me.

• 33:29Elizabeth Day?

  Just, but it was about, it was at the time, it was just before Fleabag aired and you were talking about female rage, which you've sort of become the poster girl for. And you said, and I know a lot of my female peers feel really angry. I think that a woman's response at first is to feel guilty and apologetic about it without knowing why. The idea of the angry young man is so deeply embedded in culture, but the angry young woman seems never to be addressed. And I suppose I wanted to ask you a broader question off the back of that. Do you think women fail anger?

• 33:59Speaker 02

  I don't know if they fail it. I think they compartmentalise it and it can manifest in different ways. I think it can be bottled and then turned into something else, whereas it's not just released or celebrated in its release. I think a man who shows rage or like when you even see it on the street, it's like guys fighting in the street sometimes, everyone's sort of like, we understand why they're doing that, you know, we're like, we'll let it go to a certain extent because there's so much of it on display and so much in movies and TV and stuff. I feel like women have, I mean, it's hard to talk for all women, you know, but I feel like the narrative of female anger has been manipulated. So it's like hysteria or like calm down, love, you know, it's like you're getting, you lose your mind

• 34:44Speaker 02

  when you get angry, whereas with men, it's like they connect to something deeper with them when they get angry. They connect to the the real man, the animal. Um, whereas with women, it's like they lose themselves and they lose their focus or whatever it is. And I think that feels true. But then I've been writing about it with Killing Eve, which is the psychopath show about that it doesn't have to necessarily be people lashing out or anger and rage can be a really positive emotion. I mean, god, it got me writing and creating. But there's something really extraordinary still about seeing, like, there's this character, Vonnell, that we're writing, seeing her kill people all the time and not feeling the instant remorse. In fact, she's curious about it and she knows it's what she's good at.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  And she's unempathetic to people's pain, but she's still curious about the impact she's having. And it's shocked people so much. Seeing her brutalise people and then be able to walk away from it in a way that we haven't, we're so desensitised with the male character. And people are so fascinated by female killers. And when I started reading into them, I know anger and violence aren't, I don't go hand in hand, but it's like the extreme example of, isn't it? But when I started researching female killers, there was something so electrifying about them because they really have shaken off any sense of consequence or vanity or anything, because it's not kind of a strong woman who's like being powerful. It's like someone who's gone,

• 36:05Speaker 02

  I don't care anymore about being called hysterical or anything, I'm just going to kill you. I'm going too extreme with the killing, but.

• 36:13Elizabeth Day?

  But it's the polar opposite as well, of that sort of cultural stereotype that a woman must be nurturing and motherly and.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:20Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  That would make me angry because it happens in phases, you know, we're all we're all individuals. And I think that some people do feel way more nurturing than others, men and women. And it happens in moments. Like there were just times when you feel, it's not being able to feel like you can have a window when you don't feel like that. Or you can have windows when you do. And I feel like women have to put it somewhere else. Put that impulse somewhere else. Then I've got a friend of mine who said that she had this massive screaming row with her husband in a restaurant. And I couldn't believe the story because I was like, you're actually shouting at him in a restaurant. She was like, yeah, he was being a dick and I shouted at him. I was like, and the whole restaurant was watching you shout. She was like, yeah, I didn't care. And there was something about that that I just loved it so much because I don't think I could ever do that.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  And I think, I think that's about my pride and needing to appear sort of controlled. And so I will bury that. And then my rage comes out in a kind of slower, more creative way.

• 37:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  But the fact that she just explodes like that and, you know, it's a very, like, not very British thing to do anyway. But I I sort of love seeing it and hearing about it.

• 37:24Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, following also that thing about kind of the cliched notion of a maternal being and like female nurturing. I'm intrigued as to how often you get asked in interviews about wanting babies or settling down. Because that is something that I, as a journalist, really struggle with because every single time I interview a female star, it's probably about ninety five percent of the time, but my editor will say, can you ask about this? And I feel very conflicted then as someone who, you know, I have a job and I need to please my editor and my readership, but I also think it's completely outrageous to ask a woman something that you wouldn't ask a man. Do you get asked that a lot?

• 38:04Speaker 02

  I don't get asked that a lot. But I also, in any photo shoot I ever do, I'm always put in a suit.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  So, um, and it's always like, it's the newest idea anyone's ever had. It's like, she's a writer, she has opinions.

• 38:17Elizabeth Day?

  That's so interesting.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  She should be in a suit and like maybe even fuck it, let's put a tie on her and a moustache. I feel like I'm and maybe it's because I'm I'm not quite at the age yet. I mean, I sort of, I mean, early thirties, I guess so, but um, but no, I don't get it that much. The thing is, I I can understand why you get pressure to ask that question because it's self perpetuating, isn't it? Because it's like, that's people want to know that about women because we want to hear the interesting answer so desperately.

• 38:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  And we want to hear what other people are going through because we are given one narrative, which is women have babies at a certain time. And so it's interesting to ask lots of different women what, how they feel about babies. And like, that is something that I'd be interested to hear what any professional woman has to say about that. What then infects it is the pressure they have to give a

• 39:02Elizabeth Day?

  Sanitised.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, like rehearsed answer that we've all seen so many times and read so many times. And so the question itself is, I guess, sort of interesting and could puncture the stereotype of the answer all the time, but then the pressure is too big. Because it's such an emotional minefield, you know. And I think when, any time that the professional and the personal lines blur in interviews, it does always seem with men, it's the the personal answers are very specific to them as individuals. And when it's women, it's very generalised. And I think that's probably when it gets annoying as well. But yeah, I mean, it's very refreshing to not read that in every single interview. And I and I love that you balk against it and probably don't ask that many people that question.

• 39:47Elizabeth Day?

  Do you want babies, though? I'm joking, I'm joking. That's a joke, scratch it from the record. But actually, one of the, one of the, um.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  But it's funny that it feels like a taboo question, though, even between us, because personally, we would ask each other that and not feel anything. Actually, would we feel something? Not as old friends.

• 40:03Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  But I still think that there is something dangerous in asking a woman.

• 40:07Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, I definitely think that. As a woman, I I don't have children and that

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Neither do I.

• 40:12Elizabeth Day?

  A whole emotional tale for me personally. And so when people I've only just met at dinner parties or whatever will say, do you have kids? And it's a sort of unthinking thing in the same way that someone would ask, what job do you do? But um, it carries so much weight for women, I think. And I would never ask that.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Well, because beyond a certain age, if it's no, it can be um, received as a failure.

• 40:36Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  And that, circling back.

• 40:39Elizabeth Day?

  I know, well, yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  But that's interesting because then we feel like that a failure that is can be out of our hands is instantly made public and then there are judgements put on us because of that kind of thing. It's funny because. I'd say I do want children, but I also don't know if I'm going to, and I don't know if that's gonna be my path, and I don't know if that's, if it's gonna happen. But I wanna go forward going, yes, and if it, if it doesn't, you know, work out, then I'd probably be devastated. I might not be, I don't know.

• 41:08Elizabeth Day?

  It's so interesting.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  But I know that I don't definitely not want them.

• 41:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, because I would say my failure to conceive, which obviously isn't mine alone. It means that I'm at a stage I never thought I'd be at in this particular phase of my life, not having children. But it's been so much more interesting because of that. Like, life has been more interesting and has taught me more stuff. Because life is all about texture and all about the unexpected in a way. And that's, in a way, in a funny sort of way, being such a privilege, being one of that group of women. And I think that life is, um, opening up for lots of women of our age. And in a way, if you don't have a child, you're sort of a pioneer for a kind of woman who cannot have a child and own it and be okay with it and, and not be conceived of as like half a woman.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  But also that fascination with, but why? And that's what I mean by asking the questions interesting because you want the interesting answers from people. And sometimes, you know, they are the usual answers. And sometimes your answer is fascinating and is such a huge part of who you are now. And you are this extraordinary human being and everyone feels like that when they meet you. And it's such a huge part of that. When you take the taboo out of it, it's suddenly just a much more human and natural conversation. But again, in, um, Killing Eve, sounds like I'm really pushing Killing Eve, but, um.

• 42:25Elizabeth Day?

  You're also pushing how great I am, which I'm totally A okay with.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  But in Killing Eve, the main character Eve doesn't have kids and she's in her forties and says her husband. I didn't even think about it, because I suppose, because I don't have kids, but I was like, I was not like, you know, she doesn't have kids. But then, you know, people rightly so, just as your editor was asking, do we need to know why? Should we ask the question, why, and should it be addressed? Why? And then, you know, I thought of like certain things like, oh, she can say she was, uh, she had early menopause or like that. So then I was like, what am I, what am I saying, like giving reasons for it? So isn't it cooler if she's just not? And which was always the instinct in the first place. And it's so funny because the feeling not to have to address it in the show, and we're like, there's eight episodes with this woman. And no one asked the question, no one cares because she's on her, she's on her mission. We focused her on another mission.

• 43:10Elizabeth Day?

  Great.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  And so no one asks the question.

• 43:12Elizabeth Day?

  It's part of the reason it's called Killing Eve is not just because she's killing a character called Eve, but because you were killing the mythological woman, Eve.

• 43:21Elizabeth Day?

  So, yes, I've just, I've just had this like revelatory moment.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  I'm gonna leave that for your own interpretation and for the interpretation of yours, but that sounds really impressive. So, uh, I will certainly leave that in the ether.

• 43:38Elizabeth Day?

  This episode is brought to you by the R S P C A. I know a number of people who've adopted their pet from the R S P C A with huge success. So I am personally a big advocate. Also, producer Hannah actually fostered kittens for the charity called Belinda and Millie. So we're very much aligned with what the R S P C A is trying to do here at How to Fail. We know that animals have rich emotional lives, just like we do. My cat Huxsey is a prime example of a cat with a lot of empathy and wisdom, for example. And animals deserve the same kindness and respect. Every kind of animal matters, pets, wild or farmed animals. Together, we can create a better world for them.

• 44:23Elizabeth Day?

  Show your love for every kind and find out more and see what action you could take to help animals. Check out r s p c a dot org dot U K. There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its A I tools can help you get your site up and running quickly.

• 45:04Elizabeth Day?

  And Shopify checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, ooh, I like that, to, yes, I'll have one. If Shopify had existed when I started out, I could have saved myself a lot of time, stress and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify dot co dot U K slash fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify dot co dot U K slash fail.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Hey, everyone, this is Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. You know what you believe. Maybe your faith is at the centre of your life. Maybe you're still figuring it out. Maybe religion just isn't your thing. Those choices are personal and in America, they should stay personal. That's why Americans United for Separation of Church and State is fighting for something that affects all of us. The freedom to live as yourself and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. Because religious freedom isn't just about protecting your right to practice or not. And it surely isn't about having one forced government sanctioned religion.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  It's about protecting your right to say, this is what I believe, while your neighbour says, I believe something completely different. And honestly, that's the whole point. If that sounds like the kind of America you want, learn more at A U dot org slash Getting Better. Because your beliefs are yours and theirs are theirs.

• 46:39Elizabeth Day?

  When we were talking about female anger earlier, you were talking about how it comes out with you in creative ways. But is there like a straightforward way that you rid yourself of it? Do you do extreme exercise or is there something that you have learnt works for you?

• 46:51Speaker 02

  Wow, I certainly don't do extreme exercise, my god. Like, once every six months and everyone knows about it when I do. I like, literally, I think I do actually message you every time I do it. Um, I get like flash rage, which is when I suddenly get really angry about something and it comes up. But literally it lasts for about four seconds and I find it very funny myself. So I'll be like, wow, and then laugh about it. I really think I found it through writing, I really, really have. And the best parts of writing is when I can feel that muscle in me or that like, whatever shadow it is in me who sort of comes alive. And she's like, this is the shadow hand and typing that speech or that story. And I really feel it when I feel like there's a truth about particularly female characters, but also male characters.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  When there's a truth that feels warped and weird and kind of twisted, but I feel like it's true in the character. And when that gets challenged, I'll just write it even more. I will write on a small scale sometimes, I mean, ridiculously, sometimes I'll be told we can't swear in this script. I don't mean to be rebellious, but in the next script that I deliver, I mean, it'll be just abhorrent language all the way through. And, um, I think it's that, I think it's kind of reaction to being told what to do. So luckily it comes out in the work.

• 48:04Elizabeth Day?

  There's a brilliant scene in the first series of Fleabag, which features your own real life mother as a, as a feminist lecturer. And, um, she asks the audience to raise their hands if they would rather sacrifice five years of their life for the perfect body.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, would you give up five years of your life in exchange for the perfect body?

• 48:21Elizabeth Day?

  And Fleabag and her assistant both put their hands up.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Yes, without hesitation. Yes, of course.

• 48:25Elizabeth Day?

  And it was a very funny scene and I wonder how much that taps into your own sense. Do you think you failed as a feminist in any way? Or did you?

• 48:34Speaker 02

  I mean, around that time, yeah, endlessly. I felt like I was just exploding minds all the time, every step. But also with myself, like, it wasn't like anyone was telling me off, but I would just constantly be checking with myself. Does that make me a good feminist? Does that make me a good feminist? And having to remind myself, no, being a good feminist is just like fighting for equal rights between men and women. Very simple and having to have that as a mantra. But there's all that kind of grey area in between, which is what Deborah Francis White's podcast is so interesting at addressing. What is it that makes a bad feminist? Because it ties into the guilt thing that women have all the time. Like, we're not achieving the ideal of a feminist or the ideal of a woman or the ideal of a girlfriend or a wife or a mother or, you know, reproductive machine or all that kind of stuff.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  And in my twenties, I felt so confused about all of that. Because I always felt like the message I was being fed, and particularly probably in this industry and particularly because I was an actress and all that kind of stuff, was that our image is how we should value ourselves. We value ourselves by our kind of sexual attractiveness and our youth. And I remember reading a magazine article, it was in a women's magazine that said, oh, we've like asked all the men in the world and they say the perfect age for a woman is twenty five.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  And they were like, we've asked absolutely everybody and they all say, and I think, and I remember being like, I think I was twenty five when I read it. And I was like, oh shit, well, what am I supposed to do with this? And I was like, just like, run out the house naked, like, just like, how, how do I use this? Apparently I'm at my best. And it was that stuff that would make me so angry because I knew and I was clever enough to know that that wasn't the truth. And I resented the message being ran down my throat so much and seeing the effect it had on the other men. And men get the same thing, especially now, that youth is so fetishised and that it's not a time where you are like, it's a time you're meant to be defining yourself, especially as, you know, a young woman.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  But you also have to be careful because you're so damn hot, you might, you know, send someone off, send someone into bad behaviour. It was all those contradictions that were driving me crazy and it was, you want your life and your work to be so much about your brain and your choices and your argument. It was actually in theatre that I really found that I could exercise that, being able to write. Like, nothing's clear, everything's polarised, everything's either like or dislike or good or bad. And you feel like that as a young feminist, I think, that there are enough boxes you can tick to be a good one. And it's just not true. There's one box you can tick to be a good feminist, which is fight for the rights and inspire other people to fight for the rights, for women to be equal as men. That is the only box you need to take.

• 51:09Elizabeth Day?

  Is that why you're not on Twitter or Instagram? Because of that polarising need to have a black or white opinion?

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Yes, and I'm scared and sensitive. And I'd instantly feel the pressure to be funny or to say something important or witty or clever. I spend the rest of my life trying to do that in life socially to survive. And also, you know, in my work, I go on Twitter, I follow people, people on Twitter make me laugh so much. I go to kind of gauge, I was like canvas opinion about certain things. And I think I'm really glad it's there to a certain extent. And I really, I think some people are brilliant at it, but I just know I wouldn't be.

• 51:50Elizabeth Day?

  And there's no seam or link between that question and this one. Who's the most exciting famous person you've met?

• 51:57Speaker 02

  The most exciting famous person I've met. Well, Donald Glover, who I did the Star Wars film with, was, I was so excited to meet him because I was obsessed with Atlanta. I loved him before in Community and had been tracking him. I, I do actually think he's a genius. I think that word gets bandied around quite a lot, but I think he actually is. I was really excited to meet Meryl Streep when I was doing the Iron Lady.

• 52:15Elizabeth Day?

  Who is she?

• 52:18Speaker 02

  I was ve- I was weird with her, though. I go weird around celebrities. And always very, in a very individual way for each celebrity. I should just not be around them.

• 52:27Elizabeth Day?

  What did you say to Meryl Streep that was weird?

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Well, Meryl Streep was doing the Iron Lady and she was in this prosthetic sort of whole body face scenario. The lights were so hot, so whenever she was on set, she didn't, she couldn't really speak in between, so much energy was taken up and just like acting through this, you know, mask and everything. So when the lights, so she would never say anything in between cuts and we always knew, and she was always like, I'm really sorry, but I just can't, you know, I just need to like power down, have a glass, like sip some water through the straw. But there was one day when the lights went off, they called cut, and then she just turned around to this room of people and went, you know, in her Margaret Thatcher voice and just went, so you know, how's everybody's day? And everyone just freaked out. Everyone just like froze in the room because they were like, oh my god, everyone at the same time, like, we were like vultures, just like, this is our moment to have, to share words with Meryl Streep.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  And so everyone sort of was being very casual and it was, the scene was like a drinks party or something, but edging towards her with this kind of wild look in their eye and everyone was trying to have some, some personal bounce with, with Meza. So she was just opening the conversation and then it was getting like really competitive and we were like crowding around her, but everyone was trying to be very casual. And then she started up this conversation about something. Anyway, I tried a joke and it landed. And she laughed and she was like, oh, and everyone else just looked at me with steel and with ash and face and fury. And I was like, I've won it. She's mine. She's mine. So she was mine. But after that, I was like, she's totally mine, she's totally mine. We're gonna have a day together. We're gonna like, like nod to each other respectfully in the corridors. We're gonna, we may even like, you know, graduate to a drink at some point.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  And then at lunchtime, I was sitting at this table with everybody and I was eating this apple crumble. And she came down the stairs. She was feeling lively this day, uh, obviously outside of the prosthetic. She came down the stairs and she was walking towards me and I was like, oh my god, oh my god, like, she's gonna come to the table and we're friends now, because I was the one that made her laugh. And she walked up to the table and she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, oh, what are you eating? I have never, I just, I got so excited about the banter with Meryl that I flung my apple crumble straight into my chest. My costume chest and I, and I literally squawked, my apple crumble!

• 54:44Speaker 02

  And she went, oh, and then she went back to her American accent, which she hadn't done for the whole time. And she went, I wasn't gonna take it from you. And I was just holding this awful like dripping pudding over my, my beautiful silk shirt. And I'm just holding it there really tightly, not letting it go. I was just like, oh my god, oh my god, everyone just doing me like, what was that? That was the strangest response. And then she was like, okay. And then she, she moved off and then I had to go and apologize costume thing, get my, so just weird stuff like that.

• 55:13Elizabeth Day?

  You made her break character. You made Meryl Streep break character. Um, oh Phoebe, it's been a delight. Thank you for talking to me. We didn't even get onto your failure to learn the ukulele.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Oh, well, no, that's best left as a secret, I think. That's the chapter two.

• 55:29Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Thank you, my love, thank you.