The One Mistake That Built Bitch Bible (w/ Jackie Schimmel)

Queen of podcasting, Jackie Schimmel, joins Haley to spill the tea on bad jobs, salary transparency, keeping relationships in showbusiness, faking her High School diploma, motherhood, and more. Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Haley Sacks?

  Okay, so I just gave my apartment a major refresh and hands down, the hardest thing to get right was the rug. I just couldn't find one that fit right. And I really wanted something that pulled the room together because like a rug is a big deal. But then I found Ernesta. And Ernesta's amazing, you guys. It makes designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact size of your space. So it actually fits instead of almost fits and looks great the first time. Like in the past, I've just defaulted to stock sizes when buying rugs. And also like when you're in a New York City apartment, that really just doesn't cut it, but they're all weirdly shaped. But with Ernesta, you can send photos and dimension to Ernesta's design team and they

• 0:41Haley Sacks?

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• 1:22Haley Sacks?

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• 2:07Speaker 01

  Like the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time is people thinking that I'm like so unhinged behind the mic, making it like I was jet setting all over the world, like living like this life, when in reality, I had no job, no income, $14 in the bank, crippling credit card debt, my car was repossessed, nothing on the tape.

• 2:29Haley Sacks?

  How do you approach couple finances together? Like, do you split everything?

• 2:32Speaker 01

  No, my money is my money and his money is also my money.

• 2:37Haley Sacks?

  Yep.

• 2:39Haley Sacks?

  This is Financial Tea.

• 2:43Haley Sacks?

  What's up, sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is a podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. And today, we are in the Los Angeles stew, and I am with my girl, Jackie mother freaking Shimmel. She is comedian, most of all, like truly will make you pee in your pants.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  That's nice. That's generous.

• 3:07Haley Sacks?

  But I have other accolades for you too. Writer, I was gonna say, she's, you really, like you, the blog goes hard. And most importantly, the host of the incredible podcast, The Bitch Bible. I'm the most loyal listener and has been on the air since 2015. So she's sitting on some major app, baby. She's got that podcast money. Truly a pioneer.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:31Haley Sacks?

  You walked so we could all run.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:34Haley Sacks?

  Jackie, welcome to the show. I'm so grateful that you're here.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Thank you. I'm excited.

• 3:38Haley Sacks?

  I was saying to you, I was like, are you going to be here? Because I was gonna give you every out, because I didn't know like how you're gonna feel, but you're such a champ.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  I'm here. I'm feeling good. You know, if I, if my water breaks, you're just gonna have to drive me to the hospital.

• 3:52Haley Sacks?

  I love that. When are you due?

• 3:53Speaker 01

  I'm due in about five to six weeks, five and a half weeks.

• 3:57Haley Sacks?

  Oh, so you're nearing, you're in the end.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  I'm nearing the end. I can feel it. It's like a foot's coming out of me. Am I allowed to cuss?

• 4:03Haley Sacks?

  Oh, fo sho.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:04Haley Sacks?

  Fuck, shit, bitch, whatever you want.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Okay, perfect.

• 4:07Haley Sacks?

  Let's get them all out now. Okay, so let's start with some rapid fire questions.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Love a rapid fire. Let's go.

• 4:13Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  I got the email and I didn't read it.

• 4:15Haley Sacks?

  Perfect. You're just coming in hot.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fine.

• 4:18Haley Sacks?

  What were your best and worst purchases of the week? And how much did they each cost?

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Oh, God, well, it's been a bit of a slippery week in my household.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  We're finishing a backyard renovation, so the, the financial deficits are like hard to digest. I would say my worst purchase of the week would be grass sod, about 6,000 square feet of grass.

• 4:44Haley Sacks?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Which news to me is very, very expensive. So when I got the bill, I nearly laid on the freeway. It was about, oh, God, it's so weird. You know what I'm, this is a good exercise for me, because I feel like I have been so conditioned not to talk about money since you, it's funny, like when you have no money, you don't talk about it.

• 5:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  But then, when you have a little bit, like some switch goes off in your brain where you're like not supposed to talk about it, because it's like crass and gross.

• 5:10Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  But we're exercising that muscle today.

• 5:13Haley Sacks?

  I love that. We're getting the financial tea. But I think you also, you're conditioned not to say numbers.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:18Haley Sacks?

  But you do talk a lot about spending, because it's such a big part of life, like, you know, about how you maintain your life.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  It's true. And we should be more open about it as women.

• 5:28Haley Sacks?

  As women.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  As women.

• 5:30Haley Sacks?

  That's why we're here.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I'm a feminist.

• 5:32Haley Sacks?

  As well.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  The grass sod was $48,000.

• 5:36Haley Sacks?

  Ooh, that'll hit you, girl.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  So that nearly took me the fuck out.

• 5:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, okay.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Wasn't expecting grass to be so expensive.

• 5:43Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Like, I was like, can't we just like sprinkle a couple seeds back there and like pray for El Nino? No. And my best purchase of the week is probably, this is very annoying, like white girl shit, but the Air One coconut milk, the raw coconut milk from Air One. If we could just take a second, is the very best thing that I have ever consumed. I don't know if it's a pregnancy thing, but I've been making these like matcha lattes at home with the raw coconut milk. And if you're like the pregnancy police and you don't think I should be ingesting live cultures, you can fuck all the way off, because I'm doing it and everything's fine.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  It is about $14 a bottle and it gets you about two lattes. So it's not a fiscally responsible habit. You're better off just going to Leora.

• 6:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  But when I tell you, it hydrates you from within. It's the most delicious treat. I sleep all night looking forward to it.

• 6:44Haley Sacks?

  Okay. And then what's something you spend a ridiculous amount of money on that you genuinely believe is worth every penny?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Um, so many things.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  So many things. I don't have like, a lot of spending guilt, because if I am spending money on something, it typically brings me so much joy that I can really rationalize it. And I'm like, I could get hit by a bus. Like, do I need these like bedazzled, you know, shoes? No. Am I ever gonna wear them? Probably not. But like, just looking at them gives me such a fever for life, that I can rationalize it. I would say, anything home interior wise, I can conceptualize that like a certain tile is ridiculous. And if I ever sold my home, someone would probably rip it out because they thought it was crazy. But I am so emotional about

• 7:40Speaker 01

  materials, that I do not feel guilty about like spending money on things in my home that I get to enjoy.

• 7:48Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And also like the cost per wear, like we were talking before about how we both love to buy coats, because you get to wear a coat a million times.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  It's a hug.

• 7:56Haley Sacks?

  It's a hug. But it's like, same thing with your house. You're in your house every freaking day.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  And I just, like if I saunter into a bathroom and I see the wallpaper, the tiles, or the stupid fixtures, like I get such pride in that. And it's very exciting to me. We get to enjoy it. And yeah, I can't really explain it. Like, it's just, I don't know, it just makes me feel very, very happy.

• 8:22Haley Sacks?

  Well, I think from a financial perspective, you are actually really sophisticated, because you don't have guilt. Like, you have so much confidence in how you spend and

• 8:31Speaker 01

  I do.

• 8:32Haley Sacks?

  You're unabashed and unapologetic about it. And I think more people should try and be like that, because you know, there's so much shame on the internet around spending.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Like, yeah.

• 8:42Haley Sacks?

  Like, I make good money. If I go stay at a nice hotel or something like this, people are like, why didn't you get an Airbnb? Why didn't you?

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Because I don't wanna. I'll just stay home.

• 8:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  If that's the case. Like, if I'm gonna do something, I like to do it right or not at all. You know what I mean?

• 8:59Haley Sacks?

  I agree with that.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  And I really do, I think, maybe I grew up a certain kind of way where it was very much so like, saving for the future, living, you know, living for the future, compiling. And I find that the less, I mean, this is coming from a privileged place. And believe me, you know, we were talking about this. I lived three blocks over in an apartment with bars on the windows and had my car repossessed. So I understand. But even in that space, I feel like not being so emotionally attached to money has helped me. Because the more money I spend, the more enthusiastic I am to make more money, if that makes sense, like the ebb

• 9:43Speaker 01

  and flow of it. And like, even like throwing parties at your house, kind of a wasteful thing to have a bunch of, you know, to spend a bunch of money on a night that you have people over in a bar, whatever you choose to do. But you have like, a memory and a culture and a vibe. And it's, it's so important. And if we all get crazy about it, then there's no more fun.

• 10:09Haley Sacks?

  So let's go back to

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 10:11Haley Sacks?

  No, no.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  I'm just hijacking your show.

• 10:14Haley Sacks?

  No, I'm so on the edge of my seat. I'm more, I'm just like, I'm in a privileged position where I feel like I know you so well because I am obviously a long time listener and now we're like becoming friends too.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:24Haley Sacks?

  Obviously, you know, it means so much to me. But I want to go through your story because it is so interesting. You know, you really did start from nothing. You dropped out of high school. You faked your diploma.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  I didn't like drop out. I just didn't graduate.

• 10:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I didn't have enough credits to technically graduate. And I had lied to all the supervisors. I was like very into student council. So I knew everybody, you know? It wasn't like I was like a deadbeat, like doing drugs in the parking lot. I just wasn't really that interested in schooling. I was more into the social aspect of school. And I basically was like, let me walk because I have 700 family members who already bought tickets to like, come see me graduate. And I'll do summer school to make up for the credits that I don't have. Fun fact, never went to summer school, didn't technically have enough credits, never got my diploma. So that's kind of how that went.

• 11:24Haley Sacks?

  But you got to do the ceremony and that's the best part.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  I got to walk with an empty little like leather pamphlet thing.

• 11:30Haley Sacks?

  But so then you went on to build this incredible career in media though. Like you've had your podcast for over 10 years. You really are looked at as one of the top female podcasters. And so can you give us that sort of origin story, how you got there?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's kind of stupid, really. I, I had little to no direction. I didn't, wasn't particularly like interested in anything, but like overly confident that whatever, like everything was like kind of gonna work out. And I've kind of always been that way despite having no real skill set.

• 12:04Haley Sacks?

  You have like a very clear anchor in your soul that I feel like shows you like where to go.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  I felt like it was gonna be okay. And even if it wasn't gonna be okay, like it would be okay. So I, I wasn't like particularly into anything and I didn't really have any direction. I didn't graduate high school. I didn't go to college. I enrolled like in an internship program anywhere I could. I happened to intern at NBC just because like my cousin knew someone that like got me in. I lied when I got there, said I was a, uh, going to UCLA.

• 12:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  It was a different time. You know, nothing was digital. Like we could just kind of like

• 12:46Haley Sacks?

  wink.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  It was just like, I'm at UCLA. And I also lied and said that I was graduating that year.

• 12:52Haley Sacks?

  Oh, awesome.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  But I was like 19. Like, how would you be graduating? It didn't matter. Like

• 12:57Haley Sacks?

  It worked.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  It fucking worked. Um, and then from there, I got a job.

• 13:04Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Wait, where did you meet your best friend Lauren Sanchez?

• 13:08Speaker 01

  At Extra.

• 13:09Haley Sacks?

  Oh, okay. So wait, how'd we get to Extra?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  I got to Extra through the NBC internship program. So I was there like five days a week, all day, because I wasn't going to school.

• 13:21Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  So I was able to like really make myself present in the newsroom. Um, and I shadowed like Lauren Sanchez, who were the hosts, Mario Lopez, Terry Seymour. You know, I just did bitch work basically.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  And then from there, I went to Chelsea Lately. Then I moved to After Lately. Then I did some pilots for her, but th- these were not glamorous

• 13:49Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  jobs. These were production assistants, jobs in like

• 13:53Haley Sacks?

  Creative.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  No, no. I was doing Costco runs,

• 13:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  walking the dog, dishes,

• 13:59Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  mail distribution and keeping a pretty low profile.

• 14:03Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I wasn't like, I'm good. I was just like, I just gotta like keep a gig going for a while.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  And then I got fired from that. I was also like the worst employee ever.

• 14:16Haley Sacks?

  Me too.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  The worst.

• 14:18Haley Sacks?

  So bad.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  I would just go off the grid. I'd go to Costco. I'd be sitting in the parking lot for 45 minutes, you know, all the things. And then I moved, sharpest right, I got a job at an investment bank. For, I just like went to like

• 14:34Haley Sacks?

  Mrs. Dowdell.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  I know, right? I went to like, um,

• 14:38Haley Sacks?

  How'd you finagle that one?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Very interesting. I, I had no job for a long time. I did telemarketing. I did all these like random Craigslist jobs just to like make some form of income. Because my parents are like, if you're not going to college, you have to like pay for yourself, basically. They covered my rent. They helped me a lot, but they were like, bitch, you better get a fucking job.

• 15:06Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  So I worked at Fred Segal for a bit. I mean, I had 700 different shitty jobs. That didn't ever last long because I was a really, really terrible employee.

• 15:17Haley Sacks?

  Well, they weren't careers. It was really just you're trading your time for money.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:21Haley Sacks?

  And so like I, that, those were the jobs too, that I didn't excel in where it's like, I'm a nanny. I worked at a, a Pilates studio. Like they do that where I'm just not going to take it seriously because like, I don't have a piece of the pie, honey.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:31Haley Sacks?

  They're just paying me to show up and like, I'm bored.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  I'm like, I'm barely here. I'm just like staring in the ceiling.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  And then I went to like, like a headhunter, like some type of like a staffing person lied about being a UCLA graduate.

• 15:46Haley Sacks?

  Amazing.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  They didn't fucking check.

• 15:48Haley Sacks?

  And by the way, that's on, you don't do, we need to pay for these degrees. It's like, just say you went.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Back then you could. You really could.

• 15:56Haley Sacks?

  Best money hack you can find.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  It was unbelievable.

• 16:03Speaker 02

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• 16:31Speaker 03

  Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bull spend and marketers are calling it out in. Dashboard, confessions. I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it, it wasn't. Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 17:01Haley Sacks?

  Wait, have you guys heard the news? The market report is now its own separate episode of Financial Tea. It's gonna be in your feed. It's once a week, just so that we can cover the latest breaking news going on in financial and just general pop culture. So make sure that you subscribe so you are up to date on all things juicy and money because you know, that's how we like to keep it. Stay rich.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, I got a job as a receptionist at an investment bank and I had benefits. And it was like, I mean, I thought that I was like really set for life. All I had to do was answer the phone, like divert people to conference rooms, ask them if they needed water and like close the gate at the end of the day. Like it was as, and do some FedEx runs. The best gig in town, by the way.

• 17:50Haley Sacks?

  Truly, like, are they hiring?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  I swear to God, they did. After I got fired from there, they did ask me to come back twice.

• 17:57Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Twice.

• 17:59Haley Sacks?

  Right. That's a lot of time.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  And I was like, you guys are obsessed with me. Get out of here. I'd walk around with the Bluetooth, with the cord hanging out, like it wasn't even plugged in. Because it just like made me feel like sexy rom com vibes. Good times, good times. And I was like stealing water. It was stealing wines. It was fucking awesome. But

• 18:18Haley Sacks?

  And then you started Bitch Bible.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  So from that job, I had so much dead time.

• 18:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Just sitting at that fucking desk, okay? And everyone would check out at like three and I had to be there till six. So I'd switch all the, all the TVs in the reception area to Housewives. I'd be kicking my foot up, opening the CEOs like Chardonnay or whatever. And I started writing, um, like Housewives recaps.

• 18:45Haley Sacks?

  Oh, okay. Love that.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  This is kind of when like blogging was like popping off. So I wrote like a couple Housewives recaps. One of them got picked up by like an Allure magazine. And I was, I was sending them out like to, you know, info@allure, like any submission

• 19:04Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  uh, email address I could find. And I got one on like allure.com.

• 19:10Haley Sacks?

  That's major.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  I mean, for a dumb fuck with a headset that wasn't plugged in, yeah, it was like kind of a cool thing. I was like, I'm a writer. And they're like, bitch, you haven't like even written an email for this company, but okay. And Andy Cohen found it and like retweeted it. And then, um, I got invited to do Watch What Happens Live as like a bartender.

• 19:33Haley Sacks?

  That's so crazy.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 19:36Haley Sacks?

  Like really?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was crazy.

• 19:40Haley Sacks?

  That's, that's like a lot of fortune.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Well, I was just lying too. I was like, I'm a writer. I'm like, you know, and I had like a sad little blog. And then I went to New York. I did the

• 19:53Haley Sacks?

  They flew you?

• 19:54Speaker 01

  They did.

• 19:55Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  They did.

• 19:56Haley Sacks?

  From one article in Allure that he tweeted.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  I had been doing like, and then I was doing regular housewife recaps.

• 20:03Haley Sacks?

  They were like, she loves housewives. Like, let's bring her on.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:06Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  And then from there, when I went to Watch What Happens Live, I met the president of Embassy Row, the production company. And they were starting a podcast network and he was like, would you like to do a podcast with our company? And I was like, what the fuck's a podcast? Okay. I mean, by the way, nothing else going on. So I started a podcast.

• 20:30Haley Sacks?

  But during that deal that you had with Embassy Row?

• 20:34Haley Sacks?

  You've talked about this before. It was a shitty deal and you

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:37Haley Sacks?

  You, explain how you found out that that deal was so bad.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Well, I was twenty-two when I signed that deal. I have no family in entertainment at all. I also didn't consult anyone because I was like, this is my big break. You know what I mean? I'm a star.

• 20:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  And I had no options. I did not have a lawyer. You know, I was twenty-two years old. And I was presented, kind of, podcasting at the time was the wild, wild west. There were no podcasts. Okay, like, it was Corolla and like NPR, like, there was, it didn't exist.

• 21:15Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Okay. So, I was given paperwork that was, that offered me like a talent fee of like, five thousand dollars a year, which to me at that time was unfucking, that was like life-changing.

• 21:28Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, and to do something that you actually were good at and that you liked.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  And it was with this fancy production company that was handling like, the fact that they flew me to New York and they were booking my guests and I had access to like, a studio and I had no concept of what a podcast was. There were none.

• 21:48Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  So, I signed, I don't even think I read the first line. I was like, yep, here's like, take my organs. I don't care. And, um, I was podcasting with them for like, three years, maybe? And I made zero dollars of ad revenue.

• 22:07Haley Sacks?

  So great. So you, up, for all three years, you're just getting paid five K per year?

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:12Haley Sacks?

  Never negotiated it?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 22:14Haley Sacks?

  And how often are you doing it?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Uh, once a week.

• 22:17Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  For the first year, it really was, because it's a production company and I love everybody there, mind you. But they were really trying to develop like a television show around it. And I was no TV star. You know what I mean? Like, I had no experience. They were trying to like, segment it out and produce it out and try to like, find some type of a blueprint for a possible television show. So they had me do a lot of sizzles, a lot of pilots, all this stuff. The focus really wasn't on the podcast per se. But because there were two and a half other podcasts, we were able to like, chart pretty quickly. But there, it was like, I remember the podcast coming out and like, a month later, it was like, number three on all, there were no categories back then, mind you. But there was eight podcasts.

• 23:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  So, there was none, it was pretty easy to like, break in at the time.

• 23:07Haley Sacks?

  But also, you're good at it. Like, we can also say that. Like, if it was really bad, like, it wouldn't have worked. So

• 23:12Speaker 01

  It wasn't great. It wasn't great, but I was able to get like, Bravo guests because

• 23:18Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, through Embassy Row. Amazing.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  So I was able to like, kind of book guests and I became friends with Stassi Schroder in that time because she came on as a guest and we clicked. And she had a podcast. She had started a podcast around the same time. And I remember being out with her and like, thank fucking god, I've told her this so many times. I remember her saying something like, she could quit Vanderpump if she had wanted to, because she had the podcast. And I'm thinking to myself, how the hell could you sustain a living on a podcast?

• 23:56Haley Sacks?

  On five K a year?

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Like, what are we doing here? Like, I don't have a car. I'm taking the bus to the studio. And she, you know, awkwardly, I kind of like, I was like, well, what are we talking about? Because we lived kind of in the same vortex on the charts. We had all the same sponsors at the time.

• 24:16Haley Sacks?

  Same audience.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Same audience. And when she told me what she was making per month, I was like, I haven't made that in like, ever in my, like, in a year I haven't made. Like, I couldn't believe, I was shocked. Like, I never would have come up with that number. So I go back to

• 24:36Haley Sacks?

  Do you, can you share the number?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  I, uh, I don't want to like, speak for her and this is so long ago, but I feel like it was like, at the time, like, twenty-five thousand dollars a month.

• 24:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, which is amazing.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Which is amazing. It was a long time. Like, that to me, I couldn't even believe

• 24:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  that she was making that a month. You know, ten, twelve years ago, whatever it was. And I was just like, what? I was like, I couldn't make that in five years.

• 25:02Haley Sacks?

  You're like, I have to be here till retirement. And then still, it might not even hit that.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  That's two hundred and fifty episodes for me. That's crazy. Um, and I remember just being like, whoa. I had no idea the money that was in like, ad revenue or the splits, any of this stuff. And she kind of clued me in. And then I went back and I was like, I gotta get out of here. And they let me go.

• 25:28Haley Sacks?

  So you went in the next day and you were like, you fuckers? Like, what'd you do?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  What recoupable fees? I didn't, I hadn't realized I had signed a deal that like

• 25:36Haley Sacks?

  I would have been fuming. Like, walk us through that.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  I was just, I felt stupid, first of all.

• 25:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Obviously, and

• 25:44Haley Sacks?

  We all feel like that early in our careers, though, where you just don't have any baseline.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  I had no baseline. I had no idea. And I immediately, like, went to everybody that I knew there, like, the higher-ups. And I was just like, hey. And it wasn't even on their radar, to be honest. Like, my dumb little podcast. They're producing all these massive shows. Like, it was not, like, it wasn't flagging for them. They didn't know. Nobody knew what the world of podcasting was. When I signed that deal, who knows? Um, and it had just kind of slowly started to explode. Like, podcasting became like, a thing.

• 26:20Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  And then, they let me walk.

• 26:25Haley Sacks?

  That's amazing.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:26Haley Sacks?

  So then you, when you walked, you owned the IP?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:29Haley Sacks?

  That's major. And, you know, that's something I think about a lot with you too, is like, obviously, I enjoy your, like, your content. I've said that a lot. But I also have always really respected how you've protected your IP.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:41Haley Sacks?

  And I know that you've said this before, that it's show business, not show friendship.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:48Haley Sacks?

  And you've moved a lot from network to network to just try to get better deals every time. And so can you walk us through that a little bit?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I was with Embassy Row for three years, probably. And then I moved to Dear Media, which was a brand. I was like, the only show on Dear Media. Um, because I had met the Bosticks through podcasting. They were always so great to me. But, you know, I was at Dear Media for maybe like, six or seven years. And honestly, I, you know, I got an offer from another network that was just

• 27:25Haley Sacks?

  Better.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Something I really couldn't turn down at the time. Um, and I took it.

• 27:32Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  And it like, really wasn't like, it was so funny because everyone on like, the internet was like, what happened? And I'm like, no, this is like, this is pretty straightforward shit.

• 27:41Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  I was pregnant at the time. I was having a baby. I got offered, you know, a fucking killer MG.

• 27:49Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  And I said, okay.

• 27:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  I'm gonna take it.

• 27:53Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  And that was that.

• 27:54Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  So, I've been with my network now for maybe two years. And listen, I can be bought. So I go

• 28:05Haley Sacks?

  You go where the money is.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  It's not lovely to say. Nobody wants to say that. I'm super loyal. But like, listen, if someone like, dangles a big fat check in front of me, because I do have so many episodes that are able to be monetized with like, back catalog ad sales. I walk with a pretty heavy catalog.

• 28:22Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  And I'm not like, a new shiny toy. You know, listen, I'm not getting the hundred and thirty million dollar deal. It's serious.

• 28:29Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Because I'm an old bitch. Okay, but she runs real good.

• 28:33Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. It's like buying a Toyota.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Uh, she is, listen, she's steady and she's consistent. We're not gonna have a boom of downloads anytime soon.

• 28:43Haley Sacks?

  But we're consistent. Yeah.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Anytime I go into a meeting, I'm like, listen, I'm not the shiny new car on, on the lot. But I run real good for a really long time. I'm nothing if not consistent. And I've got so many fucking episodes that you can slip ads into at a discounted rate. So I walk with a pretty heavy, consistent catalog. And there's value in that.

• 29:07Haley Sacks?

  And I feel like a lot of people get stuck places because of sunk cost fallacy, like, where you feel like, oh, I've already been here for so long. With Dear Media, you'd be like, oh, I was already there for six years. So, I guess I should keep staying because like, I owe it to them or whatever.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  I could go back. I could go anywhere.

• 29:24Haley Sacks?

  A hundred percent.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  I, I don't want people to get too comfortable with me. You never know what the fuck I'm gonna do. I'll whip and nay-nay all over the streets.

• 29:31Haley Sacks?

  You whip and nay-nay.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  In that Toyota. So

• 29:34Haley Sacks?

  She's that Toyota. She purrs well.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  She does. She runs.

• 29:38Haley Sacks?

  She runs. No, I think that's such good advice, though, to anyone in their career because it's like, We all end up getting so emotional about things. And I love how you explain it because it's not emotional. It literally is about where am I going to be valued the most? And like you said, it's show business, not show friendship.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  I have so many tiles to buy.

• 30:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you have grass.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  I have children, I have, it's really like not personal.

• 30:06Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  At all, at all. And I have good relationships with everybody I've ever worked with. I could call any CEO from any network and be like, do you want to go have a martini and talk shit about people? And they'd say, sure.

• 30:18Haley Sacks?

  I mean, who would say no to that with you? Also, before we move on, can we go back to Lauren Sanchez really fast?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yes, sure.

• 30:24Haley Sacks?

  We just need to know, like, were there any crazy anecdotes that we need to know about her?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Um, first of all, she was lovely.

• 30:31Haley Sacks?

  Oh, okay.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:32Haley Sacks?

  I hate to hear it.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Uh, she was lovely.

• 30:34Haley Sacks?

  Did she have like billion, future billionaire wife energy?

• 30:36Speaker 01

  1,000%. She was walking around that newsroom in an Herve Leger like bandage dress. At 6:00 AM, tits out, we loved her for it. The highlight of my experience with Lauren Sanchez was, it was probably like a couple of weeks into the internship and they had bagels every morning. And I was helping myself to a bagel, as one does. And she walked into the kitchen and she looked at me and she goes, eating is cheating. And walked out and I thought, that's my bitch right there. I was like, yep, okay, done, sold. It was the best moment of my life. I could, I, it, it sat with me for years. And I remember running to the intern desk and being like, guess what Lauren Sanchez just said to me?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  And keep in mind, I was like 82 pounds at the time. Like I, eating was not cheating for me. Like I could have housed every fucking bagel and been just fine. But it was just like, you know, some people that would just send them into a downward spiral. I was like, that's my girl. Eating is cheating. I was like, somebody tattoo it on my forehead. What a star.

• 31:42Haley Sacks?

  I think about that when I see her now, where I'm like, she was definitely at dinner with Kris Jenner being like, eating is cheating.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so good. It's such a great line.

• 31:49Haley Sacks?

  It really is.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  It's so funny, it's not of the times now, but like, I think she was, I think she was trying to help me.

• 31:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  I think she probably assumed that I was there, like trying to be an on camera personality. And just was like giving me a little morsel of wisdom.

• 32:05Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, she's like, and do you want to borrow my air vay chair?

• 32:08Speaker 01

  And I'm like, and I remember it was like purple and I'm like, yes.

• 32:11Haley Sacks?

  It would look amazing on me.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 32:18Speaker 02

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• 33:16Haley Sacks?

  With your career, you've obviously built it on being really outspoken and having really strong opinions. Which is, I think the reason that we all love you so much. Like we were talking before about how you could never really use AI because we would know you have such a strong.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Listen, I can't, I've tried. I'm like, they're saying, no, this isn't working.

• 33:34Haley Sacks?

  But has that ever cost you a deal?

• 33:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 33:39Haley Sacks?

  So interesting.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I could lie for like sport.

• 33:44Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  But, um, no, not at all.

• 33:46Haley Sacks?

  Amazing.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  I haven't, to be honest, like, I have said some crazy shit on my podcast. I'm so aware of what I'm saying all the time. Like the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time is people thinking that I don't like, like I'm like so unhinged behind the mic. I've been doing this for so long. I do have some form of bumpers. I do kind of know what's. I, I, I kind of do. I edge it very well, but like there is a line and I'm, I, it feels like I'm swerving down Mulholland. But I promise you, like I am 10 and 2. I know exactly what I say, why I said it, what the backlash is going to be, what the ramifications are. I've never lost a sponsorship. I know the, what the fuck is going on.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  I know the temperature, I know the audience. We're good.

• 34:35Haley Sacks?

  There's an art to that, though.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Well, I, here's the deal. I've been doing it for so long and I am 100% being myself all the time on the microphone. And I think where people get in trouble is when they are presenting, um, like a minced, parsed version of themselves. And then they slip.

• 34:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  If you're always keeping it one hundo, people don't want to crucify and penalize you in the same way. So you get a lot more wiggle room.

• 35:07Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  And the audience is ready for it. You know what I mean? It's never going to be like, oh, I can't believe, like we, we've heard it all. It's a desensitization, uh, practice. And I'm so aware of what I'm saying all the fucking time. So therefore, um, it has not, no.

• 35:30Haley Sacks?

  And with, like, this is obviously such an endurance sport, podcasting, you're doing it for so long. And beyond just reading those ads, what has been your most passive or profitable? Or what has been your most profitable income stream? And what are like the numbers behind it?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Um, well, podcasting, I mean, it's all ads.

• 35:52Haley Sacks?

  So it is all ads.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  It's all fucking ads. Uh, yeah, I mean, especially when you have a larger catalog and you are able to sell

• 36:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  ads in the back catalog, even if it's at a micro fraction of the

• 36:06Haley Sacks?

  Still adds up.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  rate, they're switching them out every few months. So you have constant ad revenue on episodes that you've already, you know, broadcasted. So that has been amazing.

• 36:22Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that's amazing. And so obviously I know as a bitch bible listener about Andrew, your husband. Uh huh. His pronouns on your podcast are she, which is always makes me pee in my pants. You're like, look at her, she's outside with a leaf blower.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  I don't know how that started. I'm sure she doesn't love it, but she doesn't listen to the podcast.

• 36:39Haley Sacks?

  And she shouldn't.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  No, she shouldn't. It's not for her.

• 36:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I don't think that like the partners of creators should consume their work. If my boyfriend, I would die if he listened to my shows.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  No, she gets the real thing.

• 36:51Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  All day, every day, the turbo.

• 36:53Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Real unedited version. So she doesn't need to hear.

• 36:57Haley Sacks?

  But she's a good husband, like she's obsessed with you.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  She's a good husband.

• 37:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, which makes me so happy because I see so many relationships, like people, so many women message me and they're just with losers who don't take care of them.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  No, don't marry those people. That's a dumb idea.

• 37:12Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, but you're, but you're, you're also, you're both bringing home the bacon. Like he, you know, is an amazing music producer. You have this huge podcast. So how do you approach couple finances together? Like, do you split everything?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:26Haley Sacks?

  Like absolutely not.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  My money is my money and his money is also my money.

• 37:31Haley Sacks?

  Yep.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  So he's the responsible one.

• 37:33Haley Sacks?

  Yep.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  You know, he's, he's the mortgage, he's the gas, he's the electric. If I want to redesign a powder room with imported tiles that cost $4 million a square foot, that's on me.

• 37:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  You know, he's definitely more, um, this is like a guy that is, we like to live life the same way. We love to travel, we like to eat, like we enjoy spending money mostly in the same way, which is primarily on me.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  But he's definitely more response, not more responsible, I wouldn't say, but he's more, um, what's the word? Yeah, maybe more like responsible, like his spending is on the things that, like the roof over our head and the lights and the gas. Whereas like, you know, he's never going to go out and like buy himself a crazy watch.

• 38:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, or like come home with like a new car.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  No, never.

• 38:28Haley Sacks?

  Never, yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  No, he's, he's pretty, I wouldn't say simple, that's not the right word, but he's, he's chill like that.

• 38:36Haley Sacks?

  But also you met when you were completely broke too.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 38:39Haley Sacks?

  So it's different because it's like you guys came up together.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 38:43Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, he worked his ass off. I mean, his, um, his producer name is after hours because he literally had to work like a day job as a sound engineer when we met. He had like four jobs when I met him. Um, he was a sound engineer all day doing just like voiceover, commercial, jingle work. And then at night, as soon as his gig was over during the day, he would go and do sessions all night long. So after hours.

• 39:10Haley Sacks?

  But you know, when you have hard, when you have to have hard financial conversations with him, you know, and maybe hard in quotations, because maybe it's not hard for you.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:19Haley Sacks?

  How do you bring them up and go about that? Cause I think that's really difficult for people in romantic relationships is they feel like it's going to kill the vibe if they talk about money. And you're so straightforward. So I sort of wonder how you handle those.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  We haven't, I mean, kind of the beauty of the situation is that we both. Bring money to the table. So it's not really a conversation we have often. Because if, you know, I, I like to keep my money separate.

• 39:48Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is like, not, you know, maybe something I should keep to myself. But if I want to go out.

• 39:55Haley Sacks?

  I always tell women, you have to have your own money on the side.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  You have to.

• 39:58Haley Sacks?

  Situation where all of the money is on the side, but like you always have to have your own independent fuck you money. But what's also interesting is you talk so much about your life. Like, obviously, I know so much about Andrew. She's great. But also about your kids, Clyde is so cute. Do you feel like it's made you money having kids? So like, I always wonder when I have kids, if that's going, because obviously it opens up new markets where you get to do like your little spoon ads and like talk about like.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 40:28Haley Sacks?

  Breast pumps, no?

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Not really. I mean, childcare is expensive.

• 40:33Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So it all evens out in the wash.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  It kind of all evens out in the wash. But yeah, and I'm, I'm gonna be a lot more mindful moving forward of how like, once he's a little older, like he, the lights are getting cut on Clyde. You know what I mean? Like, once he's more aware, like, we're not gonna be doing paid sponsorships on my Instagram.

• 40:54Haley Sacks?

  Oh, so you're gonna take him offline at a certain point. I.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Like, I would never put him in an ad. Like, that's so insane. Like, I personally, no judgment, do whatever you want. Not for me.

• 41:06Haley Sacks?

  Well, you actually can put the kids on payroll, though. Like, I have friends who put their kids in ads, which is crazy. I agree. But they then pay the kids a part of the ad and you can put it in a custodial Roth IRA, which then grows tax-free for retirement and can make them a lot of money.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Hmm, I want him to make his own money.

• 41:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you're, but I know you're also like, my money is my money.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, man, you should get a job. Okay?

• 41:30Haley Sacks?

  What is generational wealth? What about mommy's wealth?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  I want to set him up for success, but like, I would like him to do his own thing.

• 41:39Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  I don't want him like cashing in. I see these fucking kids whipping out of their high schools in their Range Rovers. And that ain't happening in my house. I could be a billionaire. That kid's getting a busted, he's getting the Toyota.

• 41:52Haley Sacks?

  He's getting the Toyota.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  From nineteen ninety-five with bitch bible rap around it. Like, we're not getting crazy here. I'm not raising a little asshole.

• 42:01Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, no.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Not happening.

• 42:02Haley Sacks?

  You, it is a difficult thing to like get the kids to actually have ambition when they do come from money. Like, you had obviously so much ambition and so did Andrew, because I feel like you were both, you know, trying to get to the next level.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:14Haley Sacks?

  They know that they're already at a level. It's really difficult.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Oh, I will make it my.

• 42:17Haley Sacks?

  You should never tell your kids about if they have any money coming towards them until they're really like set in a career.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  No, I will make it my full-time job to let them know that they have to go do their own thing.

• 42:27Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And then it could be a surprise down the line. Oh, you're gonna get a little something, but like, that is icing on the cake.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Yes, a hundred percent. I tell my, he's three. I'm like, you know how pretty your backyard is, okay? Like, you're so lucky. Like, anytime we travel, I'm like, mommy went to the Hyatt in Palm Desert once a year.

• 42:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  And shared a room with four cousins over the parking lot. And that was living large, you know, like, we were not jet-setting all over the place. We lived a very comfortable, like, lovely, wonderful childhood. But like, I was not flying business class to the Cotswolds, okay? And I just let, I try to instill that pretty often. Like, I'm still excited about this because I didn't do this. So I don't want you growing up thinking like, my biggest fear in life is that, um, he will grow up and not get excited about things. Or be like, oh, my God, this is so cool. This is amazing. I'm so happy to be here. Like, this is so exciting. Because me and my husband still get like that.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  If we go to like an amazing place, we're like, oh, my God, this is, like, you get, it's such a thief of excitement to be so used to like exciting, fun things.

• 43:39Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 43:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  And I just find that, you know, like some of these trust fund babies, they go to these hotels and they, you know, they grew up going summering in Europe and this, and they're just so jaded from the experience. And I find that to be so pathetic.

• 43:54Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you need to keep them hungry.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Keep them hungry. I'm gonna have two boys. Get to work, bitches.

• 44:00Haley Sacks?

  I know.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Earn your keep.

• 44:01Haley Sacks?

  Catering mommy's party, whatever it is.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Sweat equity. I'm gonna have them in two tuxedos when I have parties with tray pass drinks.

• 44:08Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Collecting coats.

• 44:10Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Cleaning dishes.

• 44:12Haley Sacks?

  Hundred percent. Maybe like a little massage with their tiny hands.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Like a warm towelette post-dinner, like just walking around to my friends. A hundred percent.

• 44:20Haley Sacks?

  Oh, yeah. And that's good for your like future. That's great, Sam. Your future as a pregnancy influencer, which you already are. So let me ask you.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 44:29Haley Sacks?

  You're obvious, so, okay, you're preg, you are with child.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  I, I am.

• 44:33Haley Sacks?

  It's always scary to ask that or say that, but I feel confident because it's.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Because you could see like a foot coming out of me. Yeah.

• 44:39Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, like, I think so. I feel good about that. And are, is there any pregnancy financial advice that you would give or that you would give people or motherhood financial advice?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  You know what? I waited. I knew how I wanted to do motherhood. So I waited until I was in a financial place to do motherhood the way that I wanted to. Because I have no shame in a little bit of childcare game. You know what I mean? Like, it's, people don't love to say it. And I think there's like a lack of transparency when it comes to childcare. I would also love this opportunity to say that I currently, I do not have a nanny.

• 45:16Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  I don't have a nanny.

• 45:17Haley Sacks?

  Brave.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  I know.

• 45:19Haley Sacks?

  By choice?

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Clip that. Uh, yeah.

• 45:22Haley Sacks?

  Oh, you're doing daycare.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  I mean, my son is in basically seven to seven, uh, daycare, Montessori, whatever you want to call it, preschool. Um, no, he's there like four days a week, nine to, you know, three thirty, sometimes four if I feel like it. And, um, yeah, I've all, I waited until I was able to kind of fund the transition of being a selfish dumb bitch into being a mother. So, you know, like for me, the night nurse thing, I was like, I ain't having a baby if I don't have a night nurse. Not lovely to say. I will lose my fucking mind. So I waited.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  We do a night nurse. From then, I'll transition into having a nanny for the first, you know, however long, just so that I have a separate pair of hands in the house. And, you know, I love to have my kid loved up on by another person. Like, I, that does not make me feel less than as a mother. It doesn't make, it doesn't, um, I feel like it doesn't jeopardize like our bond or our relationship. Like, I want my son loved on by as many people as possible. So I've always just like thought that was the greatest gift.

• 46:38Haley Sacks?

  Hundred percent.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  It makes it easier. It really does.

• 46:41Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And it's such a necessary investment too, because like, how are you going to run your business and like bring home the bacon if you don't have support? Like, you're gonna bring your kid here? I mean, I'd love to meet him, but.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I'd literally have him like chained up to a pole outside. Like, I'd put him in a crate. Like, no, that's not happening.

• 46:57Haley Sacks?

  We need some help.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  We need some help. And also, I just don't cosign on the trope like of this mother who's disheveled and tired and bleeding out. That doesn't work in my family dynamic. I don't want to be that person.

• 47:13Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  I'm not that kind of mother.

• 47:17Haley Sacks?

  The whole thing of, it's so hard. And I'm sure it is so hard.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Everything is hard.

• 47:21Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Everything is hard. Um, I think it's all just like kind of a mindset and how you build your infrastructure.

• 47:28Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  That was not gonna work for me. If you're an annoying person with an annoying husband, you're gonna have an annoying kid and an annoying life.

• 47:38Haley Sacks?

  Think about it. And if you're cool, you're gonna have cool kids.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Listen, it's all like how you create the culture in your home.

• 47:45Haley Sacks?

  So true.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  So that's, it is what it is.

• 47:49Haley Sacks?

  You have to set the vibe.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  You gotta set the vibe.

• 47:51Haley Sacks?

  So important.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And the bumpers and just like the, the foundation of your family.

• 47:58Haley Sacks?

  So true.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  And it starts kind of with mom.

• 48:01Haley Sacks?

  You're sort of the only person that I know, which is so crazy to say, who talks about motherhood that way. And it makes me, even my producer, Sam, who's a guy, was like, wait, when Jackie talks about motherhood, I think maybe I could be the partner to someone who's like having a, you know, carrying a child. Like, we are all, it makes, I think you're gonna up the birth rate. Because there's so much, yeah, like, there's, I feel like there's so much sacrifice. I mean, obviously, there's always sacrifice.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  There's sacrifice with everything, you know? And I always tell my friends who are like starting a family, I'm like, listen, it's not that, like, like, we've gone real doom and gloom. Everyone loves to like, the self-importance of just being like so bled out. But like, it doesn't have to be that way. You can make a choice in everything to make life easier, more fun, and just do it your way.

• 48:54Haley Sacks?

  I think that's such a good mindset shift.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, my son's a vibe. I fucking love hanging out with him. He's so cool.

• 49:00Haley Sacks?

  And there's also.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  And when he's not, I punt him off to somebody else.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  And go have a cocktail. Like, what are we talking about here?

• 49:08Haley Sacks?

  And there's also ways to do childcare that's less expensive. Like, you could do a nanny share. You could do daycare. Like, there's lots of ways to get help, yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  My son's in a Montessori. He's growing microgreens, like playing with chickens, comes home covered in glitter. I don't know what the fuck happened, but he's having the best time, sleeps like an angel, and is great at restaurants. So what can I do about it?

• 49:29Haley Sacks?

  There you go. And that's all that any of us want from our kids.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:32Haley Sacks?

  Perfect. You're raising a good one. So let's talk about your home, though, because right now, home interest rates are at 7%, which is so crazy. And it is so out of reach for so many Americans to own a home.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Oh, it's impossible. It's crazy.

• 49:51Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 49:51Haley Sacks?

  But it's something that you've really invested in. Like, you really love your home. You love renovating.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  I do.

• 49:58Haley Sacks?

  Can you tell us about this crazy home renovation? Like, I've seen it online. I've heard you talk about it. But how much is this costing? How much did you originally plan for it to cost?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  A lot less.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  A lot less. I probably jumped the gun on this a little bit, but I was really using El Nino as an excuse to kickstart it. Because the truth is, our drainage in our house has always been an issue. So like, we've had to replace the floors two times because of groundwater that came up from just such poor drainage in the yard. And the way that our house is set up, it is on a hill. And there's a lot of like incline into the house, and it's a lot of land that just pours into our house.

• 50:46Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  So...

• 50:47Haley Sacks?

  So it was science.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  It was science.

• 50:50Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you had to.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, to do the backyard, they had to dig up everything. Like, down to the, up the concrete slab, like down to the bare bones of the yard.

• 51:04Haley Sacks?

  We hit earth.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  We hit earth. And the problem is, once you start a renovation like that, you kind of don't know what you're gonna find. So I had, you know, we had planned for a certain level of renovation. And then, you know, now we're severely over budget, but it's done. And it's gorgeous.

• 51:25Haley Sacks?

  It's gorgeous. And we love it.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  And then, you know, like, are we gonna repour concrete? I don't think so. I think I need the marble tiles. You know what I mean?

• 51:34Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  You need the stone.

• 51:36Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  You need the stone pavers.

• 51:38Haley Sacks?

  And I know you love to go to Home Depot. You love to go to that marble warehouse, girl.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Get me to a marble slab shop, and then let me sniff out some slabs. And like, did we need a green, you know, soapstone that was imported from Italy for the small countertops? Probably not, but I was already in it. Once you're in the hole, live in abundance, you know? Like, I'm not gonna put, I don't want to put a porcelain slab on the hearth. I gotta do the soapstone.

• 52:03Haley Sacks?

  Ruin the whole house.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  It'll just, I went, I was seven months pregnant in the deep, deep valley. It was 104 degrees, okay? And I'm on my hands and knees, like a big fat bitch, picking, picking rocks, picking marble rocks for my fireplace. Because I didn't want them to be too one-dimensional. I wanted it to have like range and size and shade. So I'm standing there like a crazy person. I'm like, I need to get 180 square feet of this material. How many rocks do I need to pick? The guy's like, you need to pick about 450 rocks. I'm like, copy that. And I'm sweating my balls off, quite literally picking rocks, because that's how much I care. And it's perfect.

• 52:50Haley Sacks?

  I think so, too. It sounds like, I mean, it's a beaut, I've seen it on Instagram stories. It looks amazing.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  It's fucking amazing.

• 52:55Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  I killed it.

• 52:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  If I'm allowed to say that without being disgusting. I really nailed the fuck out of it. It's perfect. Anyone that would want to change it, I don't trust. I wouldn't even let them buy my home. I'd be like, you're a serial killer. If you don't get this, there's something wrong with you. This is like, you know, some of the bathrooms that get a little crazy, like, maybe you don't like antiqued mirror tiles.

• 53:16Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Sure, but this...

• 53:18Haley Sacks?

  Keep that.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  You're nuts.

• 53:19Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you love it.

• 53:22Haley Sacks?

  And this is obviously probably a big deal for you, too, because like I said, you really came from not that much.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  And I don't, listen, I came from...

• 53:32Haley Sacks?

  Oh, no, it's more like you didn't, like you've, yeah, sorry.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I, because I don't want to like...

• 53:36Haley Sacks?

  I don't want to say, yeah, let's re...

• 53:37Speaker 01

  I don't want to revise history. Like, I had a beautiful life growing up. But I was not a trust fund baby. We'll put it that way.

• 53:44Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  I didn't have like, my dad's not an agent. You know what I mean?

• 53:48Haley Sacks?

  We didn't have a leg up.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  No, no. My parents, like, very much so, like, I had to work.

• 53:53Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So you've told me for a long time that you were sort of faking rich while being completely broke?

• 53:59Speaker 01

  1,000%.

• 54:00Haley Sacks?

  Could you tell us a little bit about that? Like, what did it look like?

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Well, I think that like, when I had no source of income, I was very aware that I didn't have like a direction, a path, a skill, an education. Like, I didn't have anything on the table. And I think I hit like a moment when I was maybe like in my twenties, like early twenties. I had this like moment where all of my friends, all of my best friends growing up were like really academic. Like UCLA, UC, like, they all had like scholarships and were really like educated people. And they all had like stuff lined up. And I kind of hit like 21, 22, where I was like, oh, I don't have like anything going on.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Like, this is, this is getting a little bleak. Like, this is dark. And you can only like pretend like, you know, being an intern at like NBC, that's like cool.

• 54:54Haley Sacks?

  It's only cute for a little bit. There's like a very small period of time where you got away with it.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Totally. And then it's like, oh, wait, what are we doing after this?

• 55:03Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Like, what am I doing in five years? Like, where am I going? What am I, I don't have a car. Like, this is getting a little sad.

• 55:09Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  And when I had nothing, I was very much so trying to project the facade of like lots of stuff in the mix, secret projects popping off.

• 55:22Haley Sacks?

  Secret projects?

• 55:22Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, I was like, we're gonna really, I don't know what we're doing over here. So I never acted more like, you know, it was just pathetic and so embarrassing.

• 55:37Haley Sacks?

  What were you buying to like make the illusion?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  I wasn't, well, I couldn't buy anything. But like, for instance, Andrew's career kind of started to take off. And I was like, this is my meal ticket right here. So, you know, I was able to travel with him a little bit and kind of like ride his coattails for a couple of years. So like, if he was going to London, like, he would, I would get to go to London.

• 56:01Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  And I would be taking the pictures of like all the things, but like, I was there with $13. I was living off of his per diem. I was going to Nando's and milking two meals. But I'd be like bucking him, like, making it like I was jet setting all over the world, like, living like this life. When in reality, I had no job, no income, no $14 in the bank, crippling credit card debt. My car was repossessed, nothing on the table, like absolutely nothing on the table. So it was just like this really fabricated lifestyle.

• 56:37Haley Sacks?

  And you must see that so much in LA now, too. And that just reminds me of like every person on social media. And that's why I always tell people you can't compare yourselves to what you see, because people are, it's like such a facade. The more that someone posts about how rich they are, the less money they have. And the more they shove it in your face, the more insecure they are.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  No, totally. Because like, if you have anything, don't you just, like, don't you just want to keep that to yourself? Like, you don't want a cousin coming out of the woodworks asking you for a loan.

• 57:05Haley Sacks?

  You don't want to get in a fender bender and have to go all the way to court?

• 57:08Speaker 01

  It's not of the times.

• 57:10Haley Sacks?

  No, no, no.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  It's just not, it's so not cool. And everyone with their Birkin unboxings and this.

• 57:14Haley Sacks?

  So bad.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  And I'm like, honey.

• 57:16Haley Sacks?

  But we also like haven't been offered Birkins. And it's like our pain to sort of share.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  100%. Like, if I got offered one, you know.

• 57:22Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, no, we would get it. Absolutely.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  I would get it.

• 57:24Haley Sacks?

  Yes, of course.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  And I would be like, hello. I'd display it in my home.

• 57:28Haley Sacks?

  Like, it would be here right now with us.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  I'd have it perched next to the coffee. But once again, haven't been offered one, probably not gonna...

• 57:35Haley Sacks?

  Probably will never happen for either of us.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  I can't buy one right now. I'm in the hole.

• 57:38Haley Sacks?

  Feeling for you with the yard.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  It's not good.

• 57:40Haley Sacks?

  It's a lot. But you'll get out of it. Like, that's what, that's what I love about you. I always, my favorite financial like thing to say to people is, don't cry about spilled milk if you didn't lose the cow.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 57:50Haley Sacks?

  Because like, I really believe...

• 57:51Speaker 01

  I'm the cow?

• 57:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you're the cow. And I do say that to you as a pregnant woman, you know, I just really want to twist that knife.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  I'm leaking fluids out of these boobs as we speak. I am quite literally the cow.

• 58:01Haley Sacks?

  But it's like, you, you have so much, you can count on yourself so much. Even if you are in a position where you feel like you're so fucked, and maybe you spent too much on a yard. But also, like, there's people who feel like their finances are already so far gone, they might as well finance that trip to Coachella and like buy now, pay later, that Reformation dress and all this stuff, because you know, the world's ending.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  I've been there, done that. I know how that works out. It's not great.

• 58:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, but like, that's like the young people. Like, that's what they, you know?

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Now, I'll dial it back for a few months and then I'll...

• 58:31Haley Sacks?

  Exactly.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  I'll figure it out.

• 58:32Haley Sacks?

  And you'll find another what you are the cow. So it's like, you'll find other ways to make that milk, girl. Because this is a great analogy.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  And in the meantime, I get to like look at my cute yard.

• 58:42Haley Sacks?

  You love what you bought.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  I'm so happy.

• 58:45Haley Sacks?

  Okay, is there, I want to make sure you do get your tuna melt. So we'll get out of here. But is there a question that you always want to get asked but never have the chance to answer? This is like an intense interview. I want to feel like...

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Jesus, okay, Barbara Walters.

• 58:58Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, Barbara's here, girl.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Is there any que, no, not really. How'd you get so thin?

• 59:05Haley Sacks?

  How'd you get so gorgeous and thin? Yeah, mostly like... What are your diet secrets? Yeah, that's a big one.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  How did you get just so frail whilst pregnant?

• 59:16Haley Sacks?

  How are you pregnant but so skinny?

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Just so, like, are you okay?

• 59:21Haley Sacks?

  Are you okay?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Do you need a sandwich? You're so thin. Oh, my God, we're all worried about you. This is an intervention. How'd you get so skinny? That's my question I would love to be asked.

• 59:32Haley Sacks?

  Perfect. We'll end there. Thank you guys so much. Make sure that you rate, review, subscribe. It helps the show so much. We'll see you next week. Chucky, thank you so much for being here.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 59:43Haley Sacks?

  Well, thank you so much.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  That was fun.

• 59:44Haley Sacks?

  And yeah, stay rich.