How To Negotiate: Tips from a Former FBI Hostage Negotiator (w/ Chris Voss)

Former FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss joins Haley to discuss how negotiating with the most difficult subjects in the most high pressure situations can be applied to your business and your life. Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Chris Voss is a former FBI lead kidnapping negotiator, bestselling author of Never Split The Difference, and founder and CEO of The Black Swan Group; a negotiation, training, coaching, and consulting organization that teaches people how to achieve better outcomes in high-stakes conversations. Recognized globally as a leading authority on negotiation, Chris developed his approach through decades of experience in crisis negotiation. Today, he and The Black Swan Group apply those principles to business, sales, leadership, difficult conversations, and high-stakes communication through The Black Swan Method® and Tactical Empathy®. Never Split The Difference has introduced millions of readers around the world to Chris's negotiation methodology. Through The Black Swan Group, Chris and his team help people go beyond understanding the concepts in the book and develop negotiation as a practical, repeatable performance skill through training, coaching, practice, and live experiences. The Black Swan Group offers in-person negotiation training, live and self-paced online negotiation training, coaching, keynote speaking, and advanced negotiation experiences for business owners, leaders, sales professionals, and other professionals who want to become more effective dealmakers. Learn from Chris Voss and The Black Swan Group: Negotiation training and resources: https://www.blackswanltd.com/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm=campaign=financialteawithmrsdowjones In-person and live training: https://www.blackswanltd.com/live-events?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=financialteawithmrsdowjones Online negotiation training: https://www.blackswanltd.com/online-negotiation-classes?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=financialteawithmrsdowjones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Haley Sacks?

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• 2:07Speaker 01

  I became an FBI agent and it was the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator. Kidnappings, ransoms, lures.

• 2:14Haley Sacks?

  Say you got a new job and the employer asks for your salary number first. What should you say?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Seems like you have a range of mine.

• 2:21Haley Sacks?

  Woo! That's fire.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  I ask for what I want. If I ask for more than what I've wanted, there's deception involved. And I want you to know that when I ask for something, I actually mean.

• 2:33Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 2:35Haley Sacks?

  This is Financial Tea.

• 2:40Haley Sacks?

  What's up, sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is a podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. And if I seem, you know, maybe a little on my toes today, it is because I am sitting next to our guest, the former FBI hostage negotiator, Chris Voss. Chris worked as an FBI hostage negotiator for 24 years before becoming a CEO and a bestselling author. His book, Never Split the Difference, has sold over 5 million copies. I think that

• 3:22Haley Sacks?

  I bought at least a million of them because I give it to everyone I know. It's really an amazing book on negotiation. And you know, he then sort of pivoted his career to adapt these negotiating techniques for the business world. And so that's why I'm so excited to have you here because obviously, you know, getting rich is so much about asking for more. And so that's something you're really good at, and I can't wait for your advice.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  I'm happy to be here. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me back.

• 3:50Haley Sacks?

  Just to walk it back though, because I, you know, I'm a Chris Voss nerd. I know your work very well, but for listeners who aren't familiar with, you know, your crazy life and all of the things that you've done, could you introduce yourself to us and sort of explain your career path? And, you know, hopefully we get to hear some of your cool stories too.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  All right. I'm a simple, uncomplicated guy. I grew up in a small town in Iowa. I became an FBI agent and it was the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator, which is, for lack of a better term, kidnap negotiations are buy-side negotiations. And in every negotiation, there's a buyer and there's a seller. Domestic US hostage negotiations are sell-side. Hostage negotiated in New York City, FBI or otherwise, are the ultimate cold calling salesman. Kidnappings, ransoms, lures, complicated, legalistic add there's. But I did both buy-side and sell-side negotiations under the most extreme circumstances and

• 5:00Speaker 01

  came to realize that humans react the same under all circumstances, no matter how much the pressure is.

• 5:08Haley Sacks?

  What is the most intense or high stakes negotiation you've ever been part of?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Well, there've been lots of them. One that I was actually thinking about a lot this morning was hostage negotiation, Burnham-Sonbarrow case. 9/11 happened in the midst of that negotiation.

• 5:31Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  And so, um, most of the FBI is wrapped up in responding and I'm in DC, sort of Pentagon got hit and thinking about the anniversary and everything that happened in that. And so I'm in the midst of a kidnapping where people are going to get killed in the Philippines. People have been getting killed and American have already been murdered once. And there were a bunch of hostages. So, um, that, that was 13 month painful. It's very selfish for me to say it was painful for me because no member of my family got killed. But it was, it was, it was tough. It was, there was a lot going on. And then suddenly, it

• 6:12Speaker 01

  was tough getting resources to support. I've got them, fortunately. My whole time in the Bureau, um, working kidnappings, I was lucky enough to be supported all the way up the chain of command, like all the way up to the director. Full and complete support. They were very, they were mission oriented, which means you need, you need us to support you financially. You're going to get the resources you need to attack the case. And I was lucky the whole time to have complete support all the way up the chain of command. So that ended up, Martin Burnham was killed by friendly fire at the end of that case. His wife, Crasia, was wounded but lived.

• 6:52Haley Sacks?

  Wow. That's really intense. And it is very important, like right now, thinking about that anniversary, to think about those times. I can't imagine being in the Bureau during that. You got all this experience in the real field, doing these high intensity negotiations, and now you help people with business. And so what do you see when you talk to people who are trying to use your tips in the workplace? What causes them to mess up negotiations the most?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  You know, you kind of get caught up in your story. Quote I've repeated a thousand times these days, Robert Evans, famous Hollywood executive, did The Godfather, Love Story, a bunch of other stuff. He used to say, there's three sides to every story, my side, your side, and the truth.

• 7:37Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  And so to negotiate effectively, you got to negotiate through the other side's story. And you got to genuinely continually show an appreciation for that. And if you haven't started on that from the very beginning, you can't pivot to it in the middle. You're caught up in your story. And especially under pressure, people get so caught up in their story. And so getting people to make the pivot, it's very uncomfortable from the beginning. Because the other side's story contains bad stuff about you.

• 8:11Haley Sacks?

  Wow, that's so interesting.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  And then to proactively address it, if you've never done it, is so uncomfortable. And I'm, I'm coaching a negotiation recently. Guy brings me in at the very end, just as it's falling apart. And because he's convincing the whole time, selling his story, telling his side of the story, selling his version, focusing on his story. So I want him, I counsel him to do completely opposite and send a one-line response in an email, which is to say to the other side, clearly I've disappointed you.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Because the last email he got was the other side saying goodbye.

• 8:58Haley Sacks?

  Well, that is a crazy chess move.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  But the, in, in point of fact, I assess the other side of being genuine from the beginning. So if they were genuine for the beginning and they, and they get to the point where they're saying goodbye, they are in fact disappointed.

• 9:18Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, because they wanted it to work.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  They wanted it to work. Now, they may not blame you, but you've got to dig out where, at some level, they do.

• 9:27Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Deep down inside. A failed negotiation, the other side is always going to feel disappointed in you. And the perfect response to that, to dig it out, to, to recognize it, to show yourself as being fearless, is to simply say, clearly I've disappointed you. Now, the, the next two moves are critical. You never think more than three moves in advance in a negotiation. Anything more than that is a waste of time.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  How they respond to that. They're either going to correct you. No, no, no, no, no, no. Which now, if somebody corrects you, you're now back to being collaborative. Nobody realizes that. But as soon as I get you to correct me, we are now collab, you're no longer saying goodbye. You're now collaborating, mentoring me. We're out of the goodbye mode. So ideally, I'm wrong and you're going to correct me. Now, if I'm not wrong and you're deeply disappointed in me and I say that, the other positive reaction is, oh, my God.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  That's so true. That I'm, I, you know, I'm, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that that's true, but you hit the bullseye.

• 10:38Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Now with that.

• 10:40Haley Sacks?

  It's disarming.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  It's disarming. You've hit another neural mechanism that's to your advantage.

• 10:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. One of your best-known questions in a negotiation is, how am I supposed to do that? So what has to happen before you use that so it opens up the deal more instead of sounding combative?

• 11:03Haley Sacks?

  Because I think you could say that in sort of a bitchy way. I could be like, how am I supposed to do that?

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Intonality. Yeah, exactly. Um, there has to have been an attempt at collaboration to start with for that to be as effective as it can be. We struggle with that internally in a company because it's the first line of the book, basically. It's the first lesson you learn. It's insanely effective. Like eight out of 10 times, there's a 180-degree turn in the negotiation. Even, even as your first response, the other side's offer. You know, your, your landscaper says, you know, it's going to cost you $400 a month. And you say, how am I supposed to do that? And the landscaper says, okay, $300 a month.

• 11:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  And so you get addicted to it. Um, and that's why so many people have picked it up.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  It's a little unfair.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  But two out of 10 times, there's a complete backfire. So how am I supposed to do that is really about triggering collaboration. It's about triggering information. It's about, if you're genuinely saying to the other side, I'd love to do it, but what you've asked of me is impossible and I need you to see that. My son Brandon used to call it forced empathy. Forcing the other side to look at your situation.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  And so forcing the other side to see you through an empathic lens

• 12:32Speaker 01

  is transformative for them and the situation eight out of 10 times, roughly. Now, two out of 10, it gets slammed right back in your face. And people are shocked. Like, I don't care what happens to you. I don't care if you lose your job. I don't, I don't care. You know, you could get fired. You know, I don't care what happens to you. You're going to make this deal. Well, that data is, one of two things is happening on the other side. The other side is under intense pressure or they're victimizing you. So your counterpart reacting negatively is either they're under a lot of pressure or they're predatory. You need to know which one it is. So if they start screaming at you in the moment, if they're really under pressure,

• 13:14Speaker 01

  the appropriate response is, it sounds like you're under a lot of pressure.

• 13:18Haley Sacks?

  Oh, my gosh. So much of it is just saying the thing. Naming what's happening instead of having your guard up so much.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Right. Now, they'll react with relief instantly if they're under genuine pressure.

• 13:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  They'll appreciate that. You'll make the deal. If they, if they, if they shrug it off like, no.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  It's predatory. Now you know who you're dealing with. And my person backed into a corner trying to collaborate, I can make this deal. Predator is always going to be a predator.

• 13:55Speaker 01

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• 14:44Haley Sacks?

  So I want to take a step back because part of your negotiation strategy is first perceiving the other side and understanding like where they're coming from.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:58Haley Sacks?

  The two situations that I really want to talk to you about are negotiating salary and then also negotiating with the spouse about money.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 15:07Haley Sacks?

  And so how are you supposed to do that due diligence? To understand if it's even worth negotiating with this person? Because, you know, I often give people the recommendation with a job, sometimes you got to walk away. Or with, yesterday, I was talking to a woman who had a nine-figure trust fund and she was negotiating a prenup. And the guy that she was negotiating the prenup with wanted, you know, finder's fees on any, on any investments that he brought her. He wanted her to pay for their lifestyle. He didn't want to share any of his earnings

• 15:48Haley Sacks?

  if, if they broke up, but he wanted some of her money. And it was, to me, in that moment, I was like, is this even someone worth negotiating with? Because it seems like he's not even worth the time, you know? He's already showing you his cards. So how can you do that diligence?

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Gut instinct, which is, you gotta, does the other person want a long-term trusted relationship with you? Are they willing to collaborate?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  What's your gut tell you? And you, and you, you got versus your heart versus your head. So in a romantic relationship, what do you wish? How should they be? What's your gut telling you? The problem is people are given the benefit of the doubt when their instinct is hitting the alarm bells.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Because your heart's in the right place. You, you want to be given the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, you want to give the other person the benefit of the doubt. And while that's good to protect your heart, you know, the hope-based strategy, hope is a drug. Hope is not a strategy. Hope is hopium.

• 16:57Haley Sacks?

  Hopium.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  So you got to be, you got to be cautious is, is hope for the way things should be overruling the data you're getting back.

• 17:06Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  So romantic relationships, somebody that has put all those caveats in is not on your side.

• 17:15Haley Sacks?

  Exactly.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  And I would tell people, if, if your employer's not on your side, if your romantic partner's not on your side, move on.

• 17:25Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  It's hard, but you, the, the right person is waiting for you around the corner.

• 17:29Haley Sacks?

  The abundance mindset.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  The right job is waiting for you around the corner. When, I remember I was approached a, a girl, female in my class at USC. You know, I'm, I've, uh, look, trying to get a raise from an employer who's renowned for paying women less. You know, how do I get a raise out of this guy? And I said, I'm going to talk to you like I was your dad. Get another job.

• 17:51Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Move on. I wouldn't want you to stay in a relationship with a man who treated you like that.

• 17:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  I, and the employer should be no different. So trigger back to the question, you know, how do I negotiate?

• 18:07Haley Sacks?

  How do you do your diligence before?

• 18:09Speaker 01

  You, you, you gut instinct, you know, what's their reputation? What are you seeing? What are you seeing in them? And I had a female friend of mine tell me probably about four or five years ago that one employer was like, yeah, I love, I love hiring women because they work harder than men do and you can pay them less.

• 18:25Haley Sacks?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  I thought, all right, well, you know.

• 18:29Haley Sacks?

  At least it's honest.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Probably true.

• 18:33Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Because women are struggling so hard in a workforce that they will probably knock themselves out more than men and probably take less money. And so if, if you're a total sociopath,

• 18:47Speaker 01

  that's probably not a bad strategy if you're a sociopath. Now, you're going to go out of business eventually. You're going to get sued. The sociopath is destined for demise.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  But in the short term, it might not be a bad strategy. I would never, I'm a long-term guy. So I would never counsel that because you're gonna go down the tubes with that sort of value.

• 19:10Haley Sacks?

  So if you're negotiating your salary, say you got a new job and the employer asks for your salary number first, how much do you want to be paid? What should you say?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Seems like you have a range in mind.

• 19:22Haley Sacks?

  Woo, that's fire.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, because they do.

• 19:30Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  And you've got to know what their range is. Now, there's a real issue, there's differences between, how much is this job worth based on everything that goes with salary?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Versus what's the salary number for the job market and how accurate is that? You've got to find out what's in the other side's head. They have a range. Their range may be constrained, either artificially or by real constraints. Let's say they can't pay you what the job market is worth. But the opportunity for growth exceeds everything else.

• 20:05Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Or the fringe benefits, the travel, who are you gonna see? What are you gonna get exposed to?

• 20:13Haley Sacks?

  I love it. So something that I deal with a lot as Mrs. Dow Jones is I speak to young people and they just feel really pessimistic about the current job market and they sort of feel like they should just take whatever they can get and are hesitant to negotiate because there's so much scarcity in opportunity. And so they sort of are just like, okay, whatever, I need a job. So I'm gonna take this one even though the terms are not what I would like. What advice would you give them?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  You know, I gotta tell you, the employees see the job market vastly differently than the employees' perspective are. You know, I hear over and over again, you know, there's a scarcity of jobs, there's a scarcity of jobs. I find there be a scarcity of championship players.

• 21:02Haley Sacks?

  Woo.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Like if it's be obsessed or Grant Cardone, one of his lines, be obsessed or be mediocre. If you're mediocre, yeah, you're having trouble finding a job. I'm not looking for mediocre people.

• 21:17Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  I'm having trouble finding people who genuinely want to be obsessed, genuinely want to be a championship player. I don't care if you have no experience and no education. If you're obsessed and you want to be a championship player, if you have initiative, like I'm having trouble finding those people. And I run across to anybody that wants to learn, grow, and coach and take initiative.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  I'm hiring them.

• 21:47Haley Sacks?

  So negotiation, I feel like, often carries sort of a double standard, especially with men and women, because tactics that make men look assertive on women can sometimes be labeled aggressive or difficult. And so how does tactical empathy level the playing field against that gender bias in the workplace? Because I think for women, it holds us back a little, that we're worried of being seen that way. And so we just try and be nice and not cause, ruffle any feathers.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Well, we just decided, my head of coaching, Derek Gant, and I, we've always had nine skills, but what is the ninth skill? And we just finally landed on tone.

• 22:33Haley Sacks?

  Tone.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  And that's what makes you look like a jerk or not. Not what you said, but how you said it. And if you can master tone, you'll be shocked at what you can get away with. Shocked, shocked.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  I could say, alright, so when I said that before, you thought I was lying. That's an attacking tone of voice.

• 22:59Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Or I could say, so when I said that before, you thought I was lying? That's gonna land.

• 23:08Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. I always say to people, grr gets grr.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Well said. I love that.

• 23:15Haley Sacks?

  If you reflect grr out, that's what you're gonna get in.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, so with your tonality, like the masters of negotiation really start with great tone. And curiosity.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  I'll give you another example. Jonathan Smith, our EOS coach, is also a negotiation coach.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  And there are three kinds of yeses, commitment, confirmation, and counterfeit. And if somebody gives Jonathan a counterfeit yes, he'll go like, that's not like a counterfeit yes. Which is, you're a liar. It lands every time.

• 23:51Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  They go like, ah, you got me.

• 23:53Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it was, it's all tone. The world sort of expects men to be jerks. And so, well, he's not a jerk, he's just aggressive.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  And, but a woman gets labeled with a different term and gets written off because of it. So nobody should have a bad tone. Women get punished more for bad negotiation than men do. Thousand percent agree.

• 24:19Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  I don't coach bad negotiations, so that's not my problem.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  I'm gonna coach you up to negotiate harder.

• 24:29Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Than anybody else. But yeah, be, you know, there's nothing wrong with being, being hard and nice at the same time. You know, an iron fist inside a velvet glove. You need that velvet glove.

• 24:39Haley Sacks?

  Something I often tell people who are intimidated by negotiating, I say two things. First of all, and I want to know your feedback on it because maybe I'm giving bad advice.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  I like everything you've said so far, so I'm looking forward to this.

• 24:51Haley Sacks?

  Okay, good. Well, maybe you'll like this. So first of all, I say, so I'm an employer too. And I say that you should always negotiate as an employer, like as someone sitting on the other side of the table, you, it's a red flag if you don't, which I think if you are someone who's anxious about negotiating a salary,

• 25:10Haley Sacks?

  is a good thing to keep in mind, that it's actually the right answer. Like you're, you have to negotiate, that makes you look like a more valuable employee and it's something that is expected.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  It makes you look like a great ambassador when you can stand up for yourself.

• 25:23Haley Sacks?

  Yes. And you know how to play the game. So that's one thing that I always say. Then the other thing that I say to people who really don't want to negotiate and are like, you know, it's just not in their wheelhouse, the salary thing, is I say every negotiation, just think about it, they are gonna go back and forth three times.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good rule of thumb.

• 25:42Haley Sacks?

  Like, like, go in high, they're gonna come back, come in a little bit lower, they're gonna come back, then usually you can accept. I mean, obviously, it's not always that clean, but it's sort of is nice to have like a little framework because it takes the air out of it if you're someone who's got scared about negotiating.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's pretty close. I mean, and then also in your assessment, from the very beginning.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  You've got to assess whether or not you've got those three moves.

• 26:10Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  And

• 26:12Haley Sacks?

  What are the three moves?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Well, you said back and forth three times.

• 26:14Haley Sacks?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, three moves. Okay, sorry.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  You need to have some sort of an assessment early on. Have they outlined quite clearly the salary is not negotiable?

• 26:25Speaker 01

  And then how do you probe that? So you say, sounds like the salary's not negotiable? What you're doing is you're showing that you're listening and paying attention.

• 26:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Now, their reaction to that is gonna tell you whether or not it is. If they come direct back, then it's not.

• 26:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  And so you did, you do diligence, you found out whether or not that was an immovable term.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Now, if they hem and haw in any way, shape, or form, then there's room. Now, why am I saying this? When I was an adjunct professor at Georgetown and at USC, an adjunct anywhere, salary's not negotiable.

• 27:01Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  It is what it is.

• 27:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  You need a little bit of a track record of the industry. As an adjunct professor at a university, your salary is not negotiable. So if you want to negotiate on something that quite clearly isn't, you're inviting them to withdraw. So you need to have gone, you need, you gotta probe a little bit upfront. And if it's not negotiable, there are other things, is the job worth it?

• 27:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  But getting back to your original point, eighty percent of the time, it is. So you should, just based on sheer numbers, you should walk in prepared to negotiate the salary.

• 27:40Haley Sacks?

  And what about if they give you a salary package where it's like, you know, equity and, you know, things like that, but not actually the cash that you need?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, those are the details, isn't it?

• 27:51Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, it is.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  How easily, how easily are those things pulled away from you? There are a lot of people that are playing games with those details.

• 27:58Haley Sacks?

  I know. I see this all the time.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And so I get consulting agreements with a lot of those details, run it through Claude. You know, run it through your AI. And see, especially complicated, I got an eight-page consulting agreement sent my way the other day because they're used to these eight-page agreements that have all these details that make the terms never are gonna be implemented. And so they don't know any better. This is how it is in our world. This is what I'm gonna give you. And I said, no.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  I ran it through Claude. Claude pointed out all the inconsistencies and why none of this would ever happen. And I just showstopper, no. No, I'm done. So if they want to give you, they don't want to give you a salary, but they want to give you a complicated job proposal, the more complicated it is, the more likely it is so they don't pay.

• 29:01Haley Sacks?

  I a hundred percent agree.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Which then means you don't want to work there.

• 29:05Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Because these are people that deceive.

• 29:10Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  And we didn't lie, but we, and we know we got that impression.

• 29:17Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  There's a lot of that out there and a lot of people think it's okay. Fine, I just don't want to have anything to do with those people.

• 29:25Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, we had the former CEO of Goldman Sachs on the podcast, Lloyd Blankfein. And something that stuck with me about how they compensate their employees is it's like if they win, all, everyone wins. You know, like it's, everyone has a piece of the pie and it feels really fair. You know, like it feels like no one's trying to deceive anyone. It's like we're all on a team together and we're all gonna get a piece of that, of those winnings. You mentioned AI and technology has obviously really changed the game. And how can we use it to be better at negotiating? Like, should we have it do our resumes? Should we practice with it as a bot? What are your AI hacks for negotiating?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  You gotta, you gotta train your AI to negotiate with real good negotiation. And then actually, AI is not that great at negotiation. It's great at, it's great at assessing a legal document for issues. Um, most AI is written by people who are not good negotiators. You know, what's the programming?

• 30:23Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  They weren't that good at negotiation and they think being the more loquacious you are, the better negotiator you are. Not true.

• 30:32Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  So, we use AI in a lot of our assessment, but we re-educate it with our stuff. And you can train, you can train, I use, we use Claude, we use perplexity, we, we're using multiple. Because they're all better at different things for different reasons. You gotta train your AI, just like you gotta train any employee. But its default negotiating stance is highly flawed. And so, a lot of people are feeding their Claude my stuff. Now, that ain't bad, but it's only as good as it was when it was written.

• 31:09Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  The, the emphasis on genuine gratitude and a bunch of other things. We discover new stuff constantly. What does that mean? You educated your Claude on something I wrote a year ago, it's already outmoded. Now, it's better than the year before. You need live negotiation training to be up to speed in the moment. Now, you're gonna do better by using your Claude and your perplexity to help you negotiate. You will do better than unassisted. So, it's a good idea to start. It'll get you to be a B player. If you're a C player already, alright, so that's an improvement. If you're a D player, if you're an F player. If you're an F player, being a C player is pretty good.

• 31:50Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  You will never be an A player in negotiation based solely on your AI.

• 31:58Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  You'll be better. You'll never be the best.

• 32:03Haley Sacks?

  And how do you become the best? Cause you say it's a skill, you really have to use it all the time. Like, it's like, you know, being an athlete, you need to practice.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  You gotta, you gotta practice it. I mean, this, I, this is gonna be completely self-centered. You're not gonna be the best if you're not learning from, from me and my team.

• 32:20Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  We're, we're obsessed with it. Like, there's a lot of business practices that we're not great at. Uh, a lot. Because we're so obsessed with negotiation. And our cutting, we were talking earlier, we're coming up with a series of certifications and, um, skill, skill testings. Like, we're evolving that as we go.

• 32:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  So, you, you gotta be around people who wanna get better at negotiation. And then you gotta practice it. I, I take my salespeople to the grocery store. To have them engage with the person, the cashier. Why? Cause the cashier ain't trying to talk to you. Most negotiators are not trying to talk to you, they're trying to get to where they wanna go. How do you get the person who's not trying to talk to you to open up and start telling you stuff about themselves that they haven't told anybody else? Cashiers in grocery stores are great, is a great practice.

• 33:17Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Spot. I, I, I go, come on, we're going on a field trip. And I make, I, I, you know, we're gonna go find some weird vegetable and nobody knows what it is. You're gonna get directions. And then, you're gonna get the cashier in the checkout line, it's crowded, to explain to you who they really are in less than three minutes. But you got, what, what am I saying? You gotta practice. You gotta be around people that, that love communication.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  The wheel had roads. Electricity had the grid. Innovation needs infrastructure. Plaid makes AI work in finance. Visit plaid.com slash AI to learn more.

• 33:59Speaker 05

  You never know who's going to show up on For the Love with Jen Hatmaker. From Mel Robbins to Tig Notaro, Kate Bowler to Stan Lee Tucci. I'm Jen Hatmaker and every week, my dear friend Amy and I dive deep with incredible guests who make us laugh and cry and think a little bigger about life in the middle years. For the Love, where great stories meet unforgettable people. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:32Haley Sacks?

  So, we're talking a little bit about your fiancee Wendy. And, you know, a lot of people watching are in relationships too. And one of the hardest things in relationships to talk about is money. And it's also the number one reason that people get divorced. Um, and so, how should we go about having those difficult money conversations with a partner? Or, you know, with family? A lot of people have aging parents they've never talked to about their finances and they really wanna know what's going under the hood, but they don't even know where to start it. So, how do you approach interpersonal negotiations? Where a lot more than money is on the line, there's also, you know, your actual relationship.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  So, um, it's two things. It's actually listening to your gut and then what do you say, what your gut instinct is telling you? And remember, by definition, if we're flawed humans, the longer you've been in a relationship, the more likely you've wounded the other person, you don't even know it.

• 35:28Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  So, they're gonna be mad at you for wounding them and they're also gonna be mad at you for not knowing it. That's eminently predictable. So, how do you deal with that upfront? You'd probably say something to the effect of, "I don't know why, but there's no question in my mind that I've hurt you. Makes me look like an ignorant jerk. I know that that's true. And I, I, I'm, I'm not necessarily asking you to forgive me, but I'm asking for some guidance." So, it just goes with the territory of human beings.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  The longer we've been in a relationship, a colleague, a spouse, a parent, we've hurt them. We don't even know it. And, and they don't, they don't know it either. So, the elephant in the room is, "How have I hurt you in a pa-" like, I, I, I know I have. I just, you know, I'm, I'm an idiot, I don't know. I know I've disappointed you. And I, I know that you're doubly disappointed, cause I, you know, I don't know. We'd start talking about what's the nature of humanity. Now, i- if you're getting, if you're getting into that, your gut is telling you, also telling you that they're gonna react negatively. Like, you know what they're thinking. And you, you wanna deny it.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  The two-millimeter shift is instead of, "I don't want you to think this." You say, "I know you think this." Anything that you wanna deny, walking into the conversation, your gut instinct has done a great job of picking up that it's there. So, absent any other training, understand the two-millimeter shift is going from denying to saying, "I know." And it's a classic conversation, "I don't want you to think that I'm being disrespectful." Well, your gut has picked up that they're gonna perceive it as disrespect.

• 37:31Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  So, the two-millimeter shift is, "I know that this is gonna sound disrespectful."

• 37:40Haley Sacks?

  But so much of your advice is about, sort of like naming the elephant in the room, like putting yourself in the position of the-

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Thousand percent.

• 37:48Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, and putting yourself in the position of the other person and saying it, which is very disarming. And then sort of makes them feel like, okay, we're on the same side. But when you're negotiating like a prenup or something like that, it's hard to feel like you are on the same side because you feel really protective of your assets.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:06Haley Sacks?

  So, how can you go about talking about, like, be, like, if we were getting a prenup, me and you, cause we're obviously getting married. Sorry, Wendy. Yeah, this is the thing. But, you know, if we are getting a prenup, how could I, uh, talk to you about, you know, asking for, first of all, asking for one and then asking for what I want without offending you? If I have, say I have a lot more money than you.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Don't ambush them with the prenup to start with.

• 38:31Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  I think what a lot of, what, what happens a lot of times in a relationship, like, the person who needs a prenup is so horrified that they're gonna wait till the last minute and then ambush the other person with it. And so, you gotta warn them it's coming and give them enough time to think about it. So that then, when the time comes, they can't claim they were ambushed.

• 38:59Haley Sacks?

  Now, that ain't- So, how should you warn them?

• 39:00Speaker 01

  And so, you know, a- as, as we get into this, you know, my problem, cause what's the other side's reaction always gonna be? "Well, that's your problem." "It's not my problem, it's your problem." And so, you start off with like, "This is my problem." "This is not your problem." "This is my problem. I can't do this without this."

• 39:21Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Ooh, that's so good, Chris! It's, I thought you say it's so sort of obvious, but I wouldn't have thought of it. Like, it's not obvious, like, simple. And I'm just like, why aren't we all more honest in our communication? Cause it is true, it's literally like, I can't, I really wanna do this, but I can't if we don't.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is true.

• 39:44Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Like, you're not lying.

• 39:46Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  And, uh, you, you, you know, we love straight shooters. We love people who tell us the truth, tell us the hard truth, but tell us in an emotionally intelligent way.

• 39:55Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  So, the emotional intelligence is the other person doesn't feel ambushed.

• 40:00Haley Sacks?

  So, but then, should you let it sit? Like, should you let it marinate and then come back with the terms? Or same day you bring the terms too?

• 40:06Speaker 01

  You know, you got, I, I would read the situation personally, I, I-

• 40:10Haley Sacks?

  Like, first conversation, we're just, you know, you just asked me to marry you, we've never talked about it before.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, let, you know, let the other person marinate on it for a while. It'll give them space.

• 40:21Haley Sacks?

  So, should you say, "I can't do this if we don't do this, I'm gonna give you space?"

• 40:25Speaker 01

  I don't think that's a horrible thing to do.

• 40:27Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  You know, you're getting caught off guard by this. You, you could say, "This is what you say, you're getting caught off guard by this."

• 40:34Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  You're gonna need some time to think about this. There's gonna be a lot of reasons why you're gonna think it's unfair. So, I'm, I'm not gonna pressure you to make a decision right now.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  I want you to know that this is, this is what my position is. And then you're gonna have to bring it up again at some point in time, but again, give, give people enough warning, you know, don't, don't do this day before the wedding, day of, week of, month of. But people are constantly doing it.

• 40:59Haley Sacks?

  Oh, 100%. I know somebody, the day walking down the aisle was like basically signing the prenup, which by the way, that can't be upheld in court because you can say that you signed under duress.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  And as it should not be.

• 41:09Haley Sacks?

  100%.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  I, I completely agree. So it, but you're not doing anybody a favor to plant seeds for discord on your side or on their side. And if.

• 41:21Haley Sacks?

  So what's the right, when's the right time to add, like to plant the seed? Like it's, you know, in my head, I was thinking, okay, you should ask them to dinner or like on a walk or something to talk about it. But it sounds like a really short conversation. So it should be like, you're both going to work and you say it.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Well, no, a, a walk isn't a bad time because walking is a great time to process information.

• 41:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I love walking.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  If I, if I got a hard conversation I gotta have with an employee, like we go for a walk.

• 41:47Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Cause you process information better while walking.

• 41:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  So I would distinguish that from going to dinner or any other time, you know? Going to dinner is often a disguise. I'm gonna put you in a public scenario where you're being held hostage and you can't get upset because we're in a restaurant. Like somebody getting fired in a restaurant. So I, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't counsel, uh, breaking bread is the bond with people. So I wouldn't counsel doing that over a meal. I would, you know, early in the day, when people have more gas in a tank, they're less likely to be, have overcome by the negativity of the day. Give somebody enough space to think about it. Now, how you calculate that, uh, a walk earlier in the day?

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Um, possibly have something positive already scheduled for later in the day?

• 42:43Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  You know, put it in context. So you want it to land in a way that the other person feels respected.

• 42:50Haley Sacks?

  And then what do you do next? Like, and by, like, at what point should you get a lawyer? And like, should that be something that you talk about with the person? Like you say, okay, I'm gonna give you time to let it marinate. What if they don't ever bring it up again? How do you bring it back up?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Well, they're not gonna bring it, they're not gonna bring it up again. If you're the one who's seeking a prenup.

• 43:06Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So how do you bring it up again?

• 43:08Speaker 01

  I gotta talk about this. I'm sorry.

• 43:10Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, on another walk.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:12Haley Sacks?

  Now they know, don't go on a walk with Chris.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Now, now, now we gotta grapple. Now we gotta grapple over this.

• 43:17Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And then do you recommend going, like figuring out the terms together and then getting a lawyer to make it happen?

• 43:25Speaker 01

  The sooner you can get some sort of legal advice for a deal that is not gonna seem vindictive or punishing. I mean, what's your intent to begin with? Now, now I wouldn't, lawyers are horrible negotiators.

• 43:40Haley Sacks?

  I know.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  That, I mean, they are. So whenever I talk to a lawyer, I talk to them, I want legal advice and I want it coming from this perspective. And as soon as they start counseling me, well, you know, let's ask for these terms and be willing to settle for these. That's bad negotiation advice. I, I ask for what I want. If I ask for more than what I've wanted, there's deception involved. And I want you to know that when I ask for something, I, I actually mean.

• 44:14Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  So I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look to be adjusted some too. And a prenup, like what do I think is fair? What is really legitimate? Might be two different things.

• 44:23Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And you also always say in your book, like a good negotiation, both sides feel like they win, but they also sort of feel like they lose a little.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Nah, I'm, I'm not, I, I, I don't like the idea of people feeling they lost because that plants seeds. It's a downward spiral.

• 44:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Well, you both have to get a little something up is what I'm saying.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  You need to be able to collaborate.

• 44:45Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  It's not necessarily giving.

• 44:47Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  You know, what's the best combination? Let's talk about what the best combination is here. And you know, you gotta, you gotta, it's the other side. How scared are they? Um, are, are you trying to trap them? Does, does this look like a rigged game to the other side? I, and I think there's a bunch of prenups that are out there that probably are just, um, written by a vindictive attorney.

• 45:17Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  So where's your attorney coming from? But, but make it a collaborative process.

• 45:24Haley Sacks?

  Okay. So say, here's what I want. What do you want?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Here, here are my issues.

• 45:29Haley Sacks?

  Here are my issues.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Here are my fears.

• 45:31Haley Sacks?

  Oh, here are my fears.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Here, here, here are my problems and seek to be genuinely collaborative. And then, you know, it's, it's a tough call, but, but you've got to show the other side respect every step of the way. You don't have to agree.

• 45:47Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  But you do have to show the other side respect.

• 45:51Haley Sacks?

  Okay. That's really good advice. Okay, Chris, this has been an amazing episode. I really hope you come back because there's so much more that I want to ask you and time has flown. But you know, just to end things, I wanted to know, is there something that you never get asked, but have always wanted to get the chance to answer?

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Um, I'm not sure if I never get asked this, but I don't think people are aware of it enough. Like the vast majority of us want to collaborate. And the vast majority of us want to feel understood. They want to be comprehended. You don't want me to agree with you, deep down inside. You don't care really if I agree with you, but you want to be understood. Do not underestimate the value of making the other side feel understood. It will always accelerate your conversations. It will always strengthen your relationships, always. You don't always have to make the deal, but you can use the process to strengthen a relationship. And don't underestimate the value of that.

• 46:47Haley Sacks?

  I love that. That's such a great place to close. Thank you so much for being here. Guys, if you have not read Never Split the Difference or listened to it on audio, it's such a great book on negotiation. It will change your life, not just how you negotiate your salary, but how you deal with people. And then if you want amazing coaching, Black Swan Group has so many great courses. I think it's such a great investment in yourself. I always say invest in your human capital. I can't think of more, better human capital to invest in than how to communicate about hard things because it's, keeps us all held back, that we can't have hard conversations and you give us the tools to do so.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 47:24Haley Sacks?

  So I'm so grateful that you're here and please guys, rate, subscribe, review if you like the show. Follow on YouTube and see you next week. Stay rich.