ROLLUP: Worldcoin Launch | New Crypto Bills | Twitter X | Layer 2 Wars

Bankless Weekly Rollup 4th Week of July 2023 ------ 🔃 STADER LABS | UNLOCK LIQUIDITY AND AMPLIFY REWARDS https://bankless.cc/StaderLabs ------ 🚀Join Ryan & David at Permissionless II in September. https://bankless.cc/GoToPermissionless ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE ⁠https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 ⁠ 🦊METAMASK PORTFOLIO | MANAGE YOUR WEB3 EVERYTHING ⁠https://bankless.cc/MetaMask ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM ⁠https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum ⁠ 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle ⁠ 👾POLYGON | VALUE LAYER OF THE INTERNET https://polygon.technology/roadmap 🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT SOLUTION https://bankless.cc/Toku ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 3:45 MARKETS 4:40 NASDAQ https://imgur.com/fN35vka 5:00 Recession Interest Rates https://www.reuters.com/markets/rates-bonds/fed-poised-hike-rates-markets-anticipate-inflation-endgame-2023-07-26/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live-blog/2023-07-26/fomc-rate-decision-and-fed-chair-news-conference 7:35 Stock Market Takes https://twitter.com/biancoresearch/status/1684279348709281792?s=20 https://twitter.com/RyanSAdams/status/1684571357613543424?s=20 https://twitter.com/salmoncreek7/status/1684574718232518661?s=20 12:00 BTC Hodlers https://twitter.com/glassnode/status/1683401299956465665 14:45 Layer 2 Wars https://twitter.com/artemis__xyz/status/1684549320979419137 https://l2beat.com/scaling/summary 20:10 Worldcoin Launch https://twitter.com/sama/status/1684297687708098565 https://twitter.com/worldcoin/status/1683372181428793344/photo/1 24:35 WLD Token https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/worldcoin 26:25 Vitalik’s Worldcoin Thoughts https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2023/07/24/biometric.html 30:40 Worldcoin Controversy https://imgur.com/IoWpAVh https://twitter.com/LefterisJP/status/1683457277477437442 https://twitter.com/zachxbt/status/1683512389105229825?s=20 https://twitter.com/resistancemoney/status/1677259644321005568 36:25 Proof-of-Personhood https://twitter.com/RyanSAdams/status/1683824355178946562?s=20 37:25 In Summary https://twitter.com/ryansadams/status/1683951898653495296?s=46&t=2ZINVXJQKx6xO_6Wiiu_2g https://twitter.com/ryansadams/status/1683951898653495296?s=46&t=2ZINVXJQKx6xO_6Wiiu_2g 38:30 Sybil Resistance is Impossible https://twitter.com/nicksdjohnson/status/1683940920146763776?s=46&t=2ZINVXJQKx6xO_6Wiiu_2g https://twitter.com/nicksdjohnson/status/1683940920146763776?s=46&t=2ZINVXJQKx6xO_6Wiiu_2g 39:10 Bankless Worldcoin. https://twitter.com/TrustlessState/status/1683444128581812224?s=20 https://twitter.com/DeFi_Cheetah/status/1683678622887059456?s=20 43:10 Alternative to Worldcoin https://twitter.com/DeFi_Cheetah/status/1683678622887059456?s=20 46:05 WLD Value Proposition 48:20 Podcast and Debrief https://youtu.be/4HFyXYvMwFchttps://youtu.be/Pni-7EqUslY 48:35 Blockchain Bills https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-regulatory-framework-bill-pass-house-congressional-committee https://twitter.com/jchervinsky/status/1684368595323584512 50:25 Richie Torres https://twitter.com/RepRitchie/status/1684282890245271555 52:10 The Bad Bill https://twitter.com/RyanSAdams/status/1682098917087887361?s=20 57:30 The Law of Chains https://twitter.com/TrustlessState/status/1683969105529806849?s=20 1:01:05 Optimism Takes https://twitter.com/gluk64/status/1683964193291087872?s=20 https://twitter.com/gluk64/status/1684168523164319745?s=20 1:03:50 Starknet Appchains https://twitter.com/Starknet/status/1681603967787122688 1:05:10 Twitter X https://twitter.com/danmurrayserter/status/1683446198663888900 1:07:00 Elon Musk’s Goal https://twitter.com/danmurrayserter/status/1683446630245187584?s=20 https://www.reddit.com/r/BrandNewSentence/comments/1580t8h/membership_only_human_trafficking_gentlemens_club/ https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/159957z/it_worked_so_well/ https://twitter.com/adamamcbride/status/1684040162500657152 1:10:15 RFK Jr Bitcoin Purchases https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/07/26/rfk-jr-confirms-bitcoin-purchases/ 1:10:50 Selling Coindesk https://www.wsj.com/articles/investor-group-nears-125-million-deal-for-coindesk-146a6faa 1:12:25 Synthetix Infinex https://mirror.xyz/kain.eth/NHmuyvkRPXB4ck7R38v_ityer-VMZAaIwLGHu1hIDtE 1:14:10 Kwenta Volume https://twitter.com/superfluid_hq/status/1681330344794923014 1:15:00 Superfluid Subscription https://twitter.com/superfluid_hq/status/1681330344794923014 1:16:00 Chainlink Cross-Chain Interoperability https://twitter.com/chainlink/status/1680970793331613697 1:17:30 Flashbots Raise https://www.theblock.co/post/241327/flashbots-becomes-unicorn-after-completing-60-million-raise 1:20:00 Questions from the Nation 1:24:00 Market Makers https://twitter.com/MikeIppolito_/status/1682756221646823425?s=20 1:26:20 David in EthCC https://www.bankless.com/david-ethcc-2023 1:29:00 What David’s Bullish On https://twitter.com/TrustlessState/status/1684596913742434305?s=20 1:30:00 What Ryan’s Bullish On 1:33:10 MEME of the Week https://twitter.com/TiffanyFong_/status/1684352877488119808?s=20 ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  The WorldCoin Project is now live. It's on mainet. The WLD, I guess it's wild? No, world. The world token is in the wild. Orbs are deployed and the crypto community absolutely hates it.

• 0:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Nation, it is the last Friday of July. That means it's the last weekly rollup of July. Well, I spoiled it, but what time is it, David?

• 0:26David Hoffman?

  Oh, Ryan, it's the Bankless Friday Weekly Rollup, where we cover the entire weekly news in crypto, which is always an ambitious endeavor, especially this week. This one's gonna be a long one, so we're gonna try to move fast. Yet we persevere into the frontier, nonetheless, this time quickly. I have no coffee this time, but I'm sure you do.

• 0:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I always have coffee, always, you know, never doubt. Why don't you have coffee? Do they not have coffee in Switzerland?

• 0:50David Hoffman?

  They do have coffee in Switzerland. I choose to not drink coffee at 6:41 PM.

• 0:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's late where you are, huh?

• 0:56David Hoffman?

  It is late, yeah.

• 0:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tomorrow, you climb in a mountain. You climb a mountain.

• 1:00David Hoffman?

  Yes, yes, climbing Mount Pollocks, which is a training mountain, and we come back and rest. And then we climb Matterhorn the next day.

• 1:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Geez, man, well, we'll be cheering on.

• 1:10David Hoffman?

  If I opened up these windows behind me, you would see the Matterhorn.

• 1:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  We've got a lot to talk about this week. Mountains aside, we've got a mountain of content to climb here. So number one, WorldCoin just launched and most people love it? Hate it?

• 1:24David Hoffman?

  Love it. Everyone loved it. Everyone loved the WorldCoin launch. Universally beloved launch. Everyone was so excited for it. Yeah, no, obviously not. We're gonna go through the takes of varying degrees of quality. Vitalik, of course, had a rational take. And then there's just a bunch of things to unpack, including the topic of WorldCoin on the Bankless Podcast. We were a bit of main characters. I was a bit of a main character this week, since you weren't on the episode. So we'll talk about that.

• 1:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, you know what they say about main characters, David. We gotta avoid that whenever possible. But we also got a main character crypto bill that's in the House, the House of Representatives, that is. It's actually maybe a good one. So we'll talk about that. There's also a bad bill in the Senate. So we'll contrast those two things. David, we got to also talk about this new X thing. Twitter has become X and Elon wants to make it the everything app. Does crypto have a story in there? I don't know. I want to get your take on some of the changes that are coming down the pike.

• 2:23David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I, yeah, it's a complete mess, but I continue to reserve my judgment, but we'll talk about that when you talk about X. It's weird to call it X. It's just not going to stick.

• 2:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I don't know. I, yeah, I'm still calling it Twitter. Also, the recession seems to be off. At least that's what Powell is saying. We'll talk about that. And also the phase of the market that we're in. Last week, we gave you permission to be bullish. This week, I feel like it's a phase of the market that starts with an A. We'll get to that in the market section.

• 2:52David Hoffman?

  What could that be?

• 2:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Before we do, though, we got to tell you about our friends and sponsors over at Stater. They are building a liquid staking protocol. David, you want to tell us about it?

• 3:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Stater, it's the new LSD on the block. New LSD just dropped. And we want more LSDs. We want more decentralized staking service providers. The cool thing about Stater is that if you want to run a node with Stater, you only need four ethers. One of the lowest capital requirements that I've seen around. They have a pledge, of course, to self cap if that day ever comes that they need to implement that. Permissionless pool of staking node operators. These are the words that we like to hear. So if you want to stake your ETH with Stater and run a node with Stater, there is a link in the show notes. Check it out if it seems right for you. You can also get some SD token issuance on top of your ETH yield if you choose to stake with Stater.

• 3:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Check it out. There's a link in the show notes. David, let's get to the market section this week. And we got to start with King Bitcoin over here in the Kraken Pro charts. Thanks to Kraken for allowing us to pull this up. Looking at, what are the numbers for Bitcoin this week?

• 3:56David Hoffman?

  29,800 is where we started. 29,300 is where we ended. Lost $500 on the week. We are down 1.6%, which I call flat. That is flat in crypto.

• 4:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  We call it flat. How about ETH price? Same, same, same? Flat, flat?

• 4:10David Hoffman?

  1890 to 1870, down 1%, even flatter, even flatter.

• 4:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Back in the 1800s, huh? All right.

• 4:18David Hoffman?

  I don't like the 1800s.

• 4:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't like it. It was, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't.

• 4:22David Hoffman?

  I wasn't alive back then.

• 4:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Would rather 1900s and then 2000s, you know, and then we're finally into the future. Uh, ETH Bitcoin ratio, is that saying anything on the week?

• 4:31David Hoffman?

  Uh, up half a percent to point 064, just under, um, flat, it's flat.

• 4:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, you know where the party is, David?

• 4:39David Hoffman?

  Elsewhere, it's elsewhere.

• 4:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep, it's not in crypto, it's over in the stock land. So we are viewing the NASDAQ chart here and it's creeping even higher towards all time highs on the week. And this is really interesting to me because you contrast that with what the Fed is saying. Uh, flipping to our Fed watch, the Fed just raised interest rates again this week, and this is the highest level in 22 years. They increased the interest rate by point 25%. This was sort of expected to a target range of 5.25% to 5.5%. And the question is, of course, will they raise again in September? Um, Powell said, "I would say it's certainly possible that we will raise

• 5:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  funds again at a September meeting if the data warranted. And I would also say it's possible that we would choose to hold steady." Anything is possible, is what, uh, Powell is saying. His comments on inflation, he said it's moderated since the middle of last year, and that's certainly what we're seeing in the data. Yes, moderated inflation, CPI is now at 4.8% when you exclude food and energy. I don't know if you should exclude food or energy, but the Fed see it still seems determined to hit 2% and still says they have a long way to go. But here was the headline news here. Powell also said that the Fed staff is no longer forecasting a recession, no longer forecasting a recession.

• 6:05David Hoffman?

  Recession's canceled. If it's not being forecasted, it's not happening. That's how recessions work.

• 6:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  How do you take that? Um, I mean, the people who are saying that a recession is imminent, it, it hasn't hit yet. And now the Fed is saying there's not going to be a recession. A lot of different ways to take this.

• 6:22David Hoffman?

  Recession is such a nebulous term. I like, I, all these headlines really just grind my gears.

• 6:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's two quarters of negative GDP growth. Like it has a definition.

• 6:31David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, but, but the GDP measurements are poor, inflation measurements are poor, like recession is also something that exists in like consumer appetite and consumer confidence. Like there's so many things that go into what we're actually trying to talk about, which is like, do we have to hunker down? Or are we just, do we just like? Check a technical box saying we're in a recession. I was talking to one of my macro friends and they, their hot take was that we've been in a recession. We're already in a recession. And just because the numbers that the Fed measures shows that we're not in a recession on a technical level doesn't actually like mean anything. It's so qualitative.

• 7:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's so interesting, though. Why, like Powell is coming out fairly strongly in saying that they're no longer forecasting recession. He's not

• 7:20David Hoffman?

  Yeah, because they want to say we stuck the landing. We threaded the needle. You're welcome.

• 7:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's gonna be, but it would be very strange if in a quarter or two, he has to eat those words and say, oops, I was wrong again.

• 7:33David Hoffman?

  But they're, they're the arbiters of a recession.

• 7:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yours, Jim Bianco's take. My take on the Fed hike statement in the presser so far. It provided the least amount of information of any meeting since they started hiking in March 2022. Powell's going out of his way to say nothing and not commit to anything.

• 7:55David Hoffman?

  I hate these games. I hate these games.

• 7:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  But this, this is

• 7:59David Hoffman?

  Now, not even are we interpreting the words that they say. Now we're interpreting the lack of words.

• 8:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  He also added to this tweet. I spoke too soon, says Jim. This headline just caused risk markets to fall. Powell, Fed staff no longer forecasting recession. This is how upside down we are. This is his comment on the Fed, no longer forecasting recession. The Fed no longer sees a recession as thought to be bearish for stocks because it opens the door to more hikes or higher for longer. I've often joked that stocks would make a new high if the economy unemployed enough people. I was trying to be funny, but the market appears to be taking this idea very seriously.

• 8:35David Hoffman?

  Seriously.

• 8:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  I, I just, I don't know what's going on, to be honest, David. So the recession hasn't come yet. That's one data point. Inflation seems to be tamed. Stocks are pumping. Real estate's up. Yes, bonds got a massive haircut. They got, you know, somewhat destroyed. So there's that. Wealth inequality, of course, has continued to increase. So there's that. But it feels like a lot of the macro bears have been incorrect so far. So far, and so some of them are saying it sounds to you like, well, just you wait. It's coming, right? We just haven't felt the, you know, the wave hit us like, you know, there's been an earthquake in the ocean and there's a tidal wave out in the horizon. It just hasn't hit yet. We're just kind of waiting for it.

• 9:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  But I'm kind of wondering at this point, like, where is, why aren't stocks down? Like, here's my big question for everyone in macro right now. How is it possible that Fed interest rates have been raised to 20-year highs? And yet the stock market is also nearing all-time highs? I was told this couldn't happen, David.

• 9:40David Hoffman?

  Right, yeah. That is crazy, actually.

• 9:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  A commenter on that tweet said, "I never thought it could. 5% inflation would cause a depression scenario is what I thought. Yet here we are and consumers are consuming away regardless. It's kind of unreal, in my opinion." That's kind of the contrast to me is like, the rates have been raised to 20-year highs, and yet, risk on assets? Aside from crypto? But risk on assets are going back to all-time highs? How does that make sense?

• 10:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's actually nuts. If you told us, if you told us back in the start of 2022, when like, everyone in the crypto industry, including myself, was getting our minds wrapped around interest rates and flows and risk assets, and then halfway through 2022, we're all pummeled, and then we're all gripping the edges of our seats, saying, "When's the pivot? When's the pivot?" And the pivot has not come. I mean, it's, it's, there's been a decrease in acceleration of the, of the raising of interest rates, but there has been no Fed pivot, not even after the Silicon Valley banking crisis. And so after all of that, we still at tech stocks all-time highs. If you told us that, like, in early 2022, we would have been like, "Oh yeah, they did thread the needle. They got it right. Look at that."

• 10:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And I don't understand what's going on. I guess still, my base case, again, what do I know about macro? Is that this is some kind of slow-motion, excess money-printing inflationary crisis? But it's just happening so slow, like, we just don't really know what the effects are. I know I would not want to be in sovereign bonds, that's for sure. I know that wealth inequality is going to increase. I have no idea what inflation is going to do in the future. I have no idea about a recession.

• 11:20David Hoffman?

  And now I'm like, I'm not sure even it matters.

• 11:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's the thing. I don't know that it matters, what, what Powell does in September. And, and that's kind of a weird place to be.

• 11:30David Hoffman?

  I think the markets are saying that. They just have like interest rate fatigue.

• 11:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  I guess that. So at this point, what I do is I just, I just kind of shrug, ignore macro and just keep buying crypto. Because I still think that in kind of this money printing world.

• 11:46David Hoffman?

  Even when I wasn't ignoring macro, I was still buying crypto.

• 11:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, I mean, I'm going back to ignoring it. Clearly, I don't understand what's going on here. I think the question is, where are we in the market? And I promised an A word to describe this. I call this the accumulation phase of the market and we could see it on the chart in front of us right now. This is Bitcoin long-term holder supply and the number is up. So Bitcoin long-term holders control 75% of the circulating supply now. And this is an all-time high. And this happens at every point in kind of the bear market, particularly at this phase, the accumulation phase, is the long-term holders, they're not selling, they're continuing to buy, they're continuing to pile in, right? Those with conviction are just like, not only holding through it, they're actually adding to their stack.

• 12:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is happening with assets like Bitcoin, this is happening with high conviction assets like Ether, it's happening right now. And so what this means is, these are going to be the winners on the other side of this market. Everyone who got scared, everyone who sold low, those are the losers. Everyone who's not accumulating right now, those are going to be the losers on the other side of this market. And it just plays out like this every single time because human psychology has not changed in 200,000 years of our history here.

• 13:02David Hoffman?

  It's just a natural order of things, like the short-termers come in, they buy the top, they get shook out. And then people have to sell for the next year due to collective reasons of, you know, other people losing conviction. They have to sell for taxes, they have to sell for whatever. And then like we run out of sellers and then people start to get okay and comfortable with where the market lands. And then sellers turn into buyers or buyers start buying. Like the resonance between so many of the things we're talking about in the market at like stocks pumping and crypto being in an accumulation phase. That's 2019. We've, I've seen this movie before. That's what we were doing this time four years ago. Like it's the pattern is just happening once again.

• 13:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  And four years before 2019, they were doing it like in 2014, 2015, right? It's like this is, this has happened before. It'll happen again. I think that sometimes people tend to overcomplicate crypto investing, right? They, they try to focus on like how to win. And what I would say is like our years in investing in this assets, we can't tell you everything it takes to win, but I know you are going to lose if you're selling your ETH and your Bitcoin, right? Like that's the recipe for losing. I think the people who have done best in crypto, in my experience, I don't know if this applies to you, David, it's just the one thing they've done consistently is they've just held.

• 14:24David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 14:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, it's as simple as that, isn't it?

• 14:27David Hoffman?

  Wash around you.

• 14:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. You don't even, it's nice if you accumulate.

• 14:31David Hoffman?

  If, whenever one of my trades don't, doesn't work, I just hold it until it does.

• 14:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is that true for every trade? I know you've bought some.

• 14:39David Hoffman?

  It's a surprising number of them.

• 14:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  If you have conviction, you hold. That is the rule here.

• 14:45David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. Speaking of different conviction, let's talk about layer twos. So the layer two wars are, have continued.

• 14:53David Hoffman?

  They're the hottest they've ever been. They're so spicy right now.

• 14:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  This was something that, that happened this week. Optimism flipped Arbitrum in terms of daily transactions. That's the red line.

• 15:03David Hoffman?

  The first time that's ever happened.

• 15:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Flipping the blue line. And so that is a new event in the layer two wars. It doesn't mean Arbitrum's out though. Arbitrum still has 57% of all of the layer two assets inside of Arbitrum one. Optimism has 27%. And I really, I know we said this a long time ago, but I want to double down on this. Layer two beat, this is where we're looking at all of these stats. This really is like the default DeFi pulse of like, you know, 2019 and 2020. Remember DeFi Pauls were just constantly like giving the refresh button like DeFi is getting bigger, you know, it's at 200, $200 million now. Oh, it just crossed a billion dollars now. I'm doing the same thing with L2.

• 15:46David Hoffman?

  All 20 of us that were bullish on DeFi when we first learned about the word, we're all like using this as like validation. This is our, it was our validation website. Now this is our layer two thesis validation website.

• 15:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, look, we've got now $10 billion in layer two. So that's about the highest it's ever been. From an activity perspective, we can plot the activity and this line looks like it's going up. So you could see.

• 16:07David Hoffman?

  God, that is a great chart.

• 16:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? Look at the blue line right here, which is Ethereum. It's kind of holding steady, right? Because Ethereum transactions. Ethereum transactions. This is an activity.

• 16:15David Hoffman?

  It's already maxed out. It's been maxed out.

• 16:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's already maxed out. So it's not getting any higher, but look at layer two. Look at it rise.

• 16:20David Hoffman?

  It's just, and like, dude, that is, that is the calm before the storm phase of that line.

• 16:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're not even in the bull run.

• 16:27David Hoffman?

  We're not even in the bull run. That line is going to increase in, what's the word? Incline. That good thing is going to get steeper exponentially.

• 16:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, there's, there's.

• 16:36David Hoffman?

  Remember when your scaling factor was like 1.5? Now we're at 4.5?

• 16:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. I mean, I think what we're, what we're seeing on this chart is, is basically like optimistic rollups, which were released like, you know, two years. They have a two-year head start from ZK rollups. We haven't even seen ZK rollups kind of enter here and.

• 16:54David Hoffman?

  ZK, ZK seems almost at half a bell, bro. That's not, that's not a small amount.

• 16:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Half a billion, but it's still 4%, right? So in order for ZK to catch up, it has to just not only like win, but like it has to outpace what the optimistic rollups are doing. Anyway, this is why the wars are so fun. And this is why I keep hitting refresh on layer two beat and looking at all these charts, but it's very good news for scaling Ethereum and for the modular blockchain thesis. One thing I would like to see, I will say, is, is this column right here in terms of the stage of decentralization. Our, our best is stage one, which is still training wheels on sequencers and.

• 17:34David Hoffman?

  They're still technically young. Yes.

• 17:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes. So Arbitrum is at stage one. Optimism is still at stage zero. I would like to see the zeros become ones. I would like to see the ones become twos. That will make me feel a lot better about how we're scaling.

• 17:48David Hoffman?

  The slices, the slices all turn green. All those little different colored slices. We want those to turn green.

• 17:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's right. Want that too. All right. Well, David, we got a lot coming up next. What are we covering?

• 17:58David Hoffman?

  World coin launches and everyone loves it and cheered. And then after that, we have a good bill and a bad bill. Bad bills in the Senate, good bill in the House, just passed the financial committee vote. Jake Shavinsky's got to take where he goes to vote a historic day for crypto policy. And then after that optimism drops to law of chains. Laws? We're getting laws? Yeah, we're getting laws. I'm super psyched about it. So all of that and more. But first, I want to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show as possible, especially Kraken, a preferred crypto exchange for 2023. If you are accumulating crypto, like we said that you ought to be perhaps in not financial advice in the beginning of this show, perhaps use Kraken to get that done. There's a link in the show notes to get started accumulating. Let's go hear from them right now. Kraken Pro has easily become the best crypto trading platform in the industry.

• 18:41David Hoffman?

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• 19:26David Hoffman?

  What's missing is a value layer that lets anyone exchange, store, and program value. That's where Polygon 2.0 comes in. Polygon Labs has unveiled a series of innovations that will radically alter the Polygon ecosystem and Web 3 as a whole. By leveraging groundbreaking ZK innovations such as Polygon ZK EVM, the next iteration of the best in class Ponki 2 proving system, and a first of its kind ZK-powered interoperability layer, Polygon 2.0 will give users and devs unlimited scalability and unified liquidity. Right now, there is a Polygon improvement proposal regarding a potential ZK-powered upgrade of Polygon proof of stake. If approved, Polygon proof of stake would become a Layer 2 ZK EVM Velidium. So make your voice heard on this proposal by joining the Polygon Discord today.

• 20:08David Hoffman?

  You have a chance to help the Polygon community give the internet the value layer it deserves. The World Coin Project is now live. It's on main net. The WLD, I guess it's wild? No, world. The world token is in the wild. Orbs are deployed and the crypto community absolutely.

• 20:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hates it. David, they don't love it.

• 20:27David Hoffman?

  They despises it.

• 20:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  They really hate this.

• 20:29David Hoffman?

  It's the least favorite thing that they've ever seen.

• 20:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're going to talk about all of that. First, I want to show you this. So Sam Altman tweeted this out. This is a picture, he says. I'll read the caption in a second, but you see this line kind of forming. I don't know where this is. It looks like possibly somewhere in Japan. This massive line has formed and the caption from Sam Altman is day three of WorldCoin launch. Crazy lines around the world, one person getting verified every eight seconds now. David, there is one person.

• 20:59David Hoffman?

  Okay, so why are people scanning their eyeballs? Because you get, if I understand it correctly, you get 25 world for just doing it and then one world a week. Then from the rest of time, WorldCoin is $2 right now. So people are waiting in line for $50? What's going on? Why are they doing that?

• 21:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  $50 right now, but like I guess number could go up. And Sam calls a one person every eight seconds now.

• 21:25David Hoffman?

  I don't think number's going to go up at this valuation.

• 21:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, we'll talk about more of that, but can you, before we get into that, can you just describe what is WorldCoin? For people who've kind of missed what this launch actually is and even what this project is.

• 21:38David Hoffman?

  Okay, so WorldCoin is an attempt at a proof of humanity system that uses biometric scanning. So there is a bunch of different mechanisms that one could approach to try and produce a system that proves unique humanness. So this is an anti-civil platform. We've had a number of these come into the crypto world with varying success. Circles from Martin Koppelman is one, BrightID is one. There's a few others. Gitcoin uses a collection of them. This one is unique in that it attempts, those are, the ones I just listed are like circles of trust. As in like other humans verifying other humans. This one is different in that it is biometric scanning,

• 22:18David Hoffman?

  which is another way to prove unique humanness that also gives people the heebie-jeebies. And so there's three parts of the WorldCoin system. There is WorldID, which is what you get after you scan your eyeball. There is the orb, which is what we're looking at on screen here, which is this device produced by WorldCoin, which also has aspirations to be able to be produced by any manufacturer that actually does the eyeball scanning and attestation that that eyeball is the same eyeball that is hard to scan prior. There is the world token, the world coin, which is the coin that comes with this network. There also is the world layer two, which is an OP stack layer two that got released not too long ago.

• 23:01David Hoffman?

  And there is also an app, but I think that's also the world ID. It's like this web, this mobile app that is your attestation for wherever you go on the internet, saying, hey, I'm a, I'm a real human. So you could imagine it like sign in with Facebook, sign in with Google, sign in with Twitter, sign in with world coin, except that mechanism is, would be kind of cool because the sign in with world coin button would be approvable human. At least that's, that's the idea. And then also the world coin aspect of this is also supposed to be some UBI attempt. So every human gets an equal amount of world coins distributed them to their unique eyeball. Unique eyeball.

• 23:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Their unique eyeball.

• 23:40David Hoffman?

  Their unique eyeball, yeah. And so in addition to all of the proof of humanness, it is also an attempt at fairly distributing a token equally across all humans across the whole entire world. And that's how I would summarize this.

• 23:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  And Sam Altman's part of his reason for this is like AI is going to take all the, you know, human beings' jobs, basically. And so we need to know who all the humans are so we can give them some sort of, some form of UBI, basically, right? And, you know, not have just the robots kind of rule the planet and accrue all of the capital. That is his stated vision for this. And Sam Altman is one of the founders of this, actually. So, I mean, the project-

• 24:23David Hoffman?

  He's the, he's the guy that found Alex Blanier, the CEO. Sam Altman found Alex Blanier. He was like, yo, drop out of school and help me build this world coin thing.

• 24:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Cause I want to build it.

• 24:30David Hoffman?

  Building OpenAI.

• 24:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like he's the vision guy. Let's talk about, so this went to mainnet. It had been in some sort of alpha version. It wasn't live. People were being orb'd, but in kind of limited capacities. But now it's, now it's live. Now it's everywhere. This is the world coin, coin itself. So market cap right now, fully diluted valuation of $21 billion. I didn't realize it was so high.

• 24:53David Hoffman?

  That is nuts.

• 24:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  WLD token trading at $2.15 at this point in time. But a massive amount of the supply is like locked up. The circulating supply is just like a small, it's like 1%.

• 25:07David Hoffman?

  1%.

• 25:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  1%. So the actual market cap- In terms of circulating market cap is $239 million, but fully diluted, it's $21 billion, which is an absolutely insane valuation. I mean, what does that, I guess, like if you go to Coin

• 25:23David Hoffman?

  21 billion, if it puts it at right above Lido staked ether and right below USDC coming in, it would be number seven. It would bump Lido out.

• 25:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  It would be number seven.

• 25:33David Hoffman?

  Lido staked ETH. Yeah, it would be number seven.

• 25:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow.

• 25:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's extremely, extremely inflated. That is one of the most inflated token launches that I have ever seen.

• 25:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is not a layer one, we should say. This is sort of deployed on optimism change, right? It's like kind of a roll up.

• 25:52David Hoffman?

  An OP, it's a, oh yeah, actually, I think that's right. It is on optimism mainnet and it has aspirations and it will eventually become its own OP stack chain. One other thing that I didn't mention about the whole I risk anything is that they also say that they preserve your privacy by doing a ZK snark. So they're not creating a database of just like, here's Ryan Sean Adams, here's Ryan Sean Adams eyeball. They're claiming to ZK snark that and so to maintain privacy.

• 26:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Claiming is a key word here, I think. So let's talk about the the community reaction here. I thought one of the most rational takes, as usual, is from Vitalik and he wrote an entire post about biometric proof of personhood that really focuses in on WorldCoin. What's kind of your summary of Vitalik's post here, David?

• 26:40David Hoffman?

  I think this isn't a direct summary, but I think my takeaway from this is that Vitalik goes through all of these different components of what makes a biometric proof of personhood system. And then it kind of explains, well, this is how this works and this is how it leaks and this is how this works and this is how this is vulnerable and this is how this works and this is how this is vulnerable. So you get to the end of this thing, I'm like, hmm, there's a lot of like things that really need to go right for the system to work. And so he just, he just kind of talked about every single aspect of it and talked about the ways that it's vulnerable. And after you get to the end and you're kind of like, well, that's, that was a lot of things. And so that's why in the intro to the Bankless Podcast episode that I did with Sam and Alex, I called it like one of the most ambitious crypto projects.

• 27:22David Hoffman?

  And people did not like that phrasing and but they're not, I didn't, I didn't do it. I didn't serve that up very well. I mean, it's like, it has to do so much to work and it's the scale and scope of the thing is massive and the requirements of getting this thing right are huge. That's what I meant by ambitious.

• 27:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it has to get a lot of things right in order for this to actually be a good for the world, if it even can be a public good. Yeah. This, um, this whole post from Vitalik, I can't recommend it enough. If you have, you know, it's probably 20 to 30 minutes of time to actually read through it, but Vitalik starts by- You'll learn a lot. Yeah, you'll learn a lot. He, he starts by talking about why a decentralized proof of personhood solution is, is even necessary. Why do we need the idea of decentralized people? Why do we need to know whether an Ethereum address is represented by one single person or many people or, or a bot? Reasons he give is that it's an anti-concentration of power sort of thing. If we want to do like a vote in a DAO and specify that as one person, one

• 28:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  vote. Um, if we want to do an airdrop and ignore all the bots, ignore all of kind of the, you know, the civil attacks and all of the airdrop, um, you know, farmers who are creating multiple accounts and just distribute it to individual people. If we want to do some sort of credit system, like an on off-chain credit type system for individual human beings, we need some sort of proof of personhood. So that is a good thing in itself. If we can somehow manage that on-chain. But then he walks through this one specific implementation of proof of personhood, which WorldCoin is pursuing, which is biometric proof of personhood. And that the exact implementation WorldCoin is pursuing is, is eyeball-based

• 29:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  biometric, uh, proof of personhood, which presents its own problems. But this, um, this kind of table at the end of his post, I think sums it up. If you want decentralized proof of personhood, you kind of have two tries at this. One is a hardware biometric based proof of personhood. And ideally it would be a specialized version of that. Um, you can get privacy fairly high, he says, accessibility and scalability, medium, robustness of decentralization is fairly low because there's hardware supply chain issues, all sorts of reasons why, security against fake people, medium. That's what WorldCoin is pursuing. And then your other option to do this is a social graph-based proof of personhood, where your privacy is kind of low because

• 29:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  you have to trust a circle of other human beings to really validate you and verify your personhood. Accessibility and scalability has been fairly low. Like, these solutions haven't really taken off yet, which is kind of the concern, even though they exist. The decentralization, though, is very high because it's bottom up, and the security against fake people is also high. So he kind of contrasts all of these things and presents the world as a series of engineering trade-offs. I think one of the takeaways for me from this post is that we shouldn't put all of our eggs in one basket. This is a classic Vitalik take, that probably the best solution

• 30:29David Hoffman?

  That's such a Vitalik line.

• 30:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  is a blend of all of the above, that we kind of amalgamate together into like

• 30:35David Hoffman?

  Which is actually what Bitcoin uses in order to achieve unique human-ness on their platform. They don't behoove themselves to one platform. They just use amalgamation of a bunch.

• 30:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  We should get into some of the other controversy here, because, as you said earlier, David, the crypto community actually did not like WorldCoin. It was not received with excitement. And I would kind of classify the critiques in a few various forms. One is critiques of WorldCoin themselves and the implementation approach that they're taking. And the other is a critique of biometric proof of personhood altogether. And then some people actually don't like the idea of on-chain proof of personhood at all. So maybe we'll take the first one, which is like, "WorldCoin sucks." This is left-eris. What is he saying here, David?

• 31:23David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Left-eris has just a list of bullet points of criticisms about WorldCoin, and goes, "20% of the supply of world goes to team and investors. There are privacy concerns about the actual cryptography that protects people's eyeballs. There's malicious orb operators." And so the idea with this orb is that The people may like operating these orbs aren't necessarily WorldCoin employees. It's the public. The public can operate, a public person can operate an orb. But then that means that one public person can try to manipulate the orb in order to scan other people's eyeballs and take their WorldCoin on their behalf. So that's it. That's, that's issues. You can, you can also tinker with the orb. So that's his next one. Malicious slash compromised orbs bribing poor people with tokens for an eyeball scan. And then his last one, which is kind of just like the vibe of the whole thing is it just feels really dystopian.

• 32:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, it's called WorldCoin, right?

• 32:10David Hoffman?

  It's called WorldCoin. It's got a chrome orb that you stick your eyeball into. The, one of the founders is the guy making like, you know, AI after Bankless, we just did a bunch of like AI Doom episodes. Like it's, the whole thing is just like it's perfect storm of dystopia.

• 32:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Dystopian feeling. Here's a more specific take list of issues from Zach XBT. My issues with WorldCoin. He says, most alarming to me is how the WorldCoin team has boasted about how many users they have, when in reality, they have been exploiting people in developing countries. This is sourcing an MIT Technology Review article from 2022 about that. Verification that you're a real person seems to only be currently enforced at the enrollment level. And so what this has led to is the emergence of a black market for accounts. So you can buy a WorldCoin account on Telegram for, you know, a dollar per WorldCoin account. It's being attacked in that way. And then some criticism about the token allocation. There are a few more. So this is under the category of like, WorldCoin

• 33:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  sucks. And so you can find a lot of critiques for that, including another one from Andrew M. Bailey. WorldCoin is still stupid and bad in four points. Number one, the team incredibly was not prepared for people to sell credentials. That's the issue I was just mentioning. It doesn't solve the one problem it was supposed to solve. There's also some criticism about the foundation that WorldCoin, the kind of the org structure they're creating.

• 33:34David Hoffman?

  That's, that comes with the territory. Everyone complains about the foundation of every project.

• 33:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Giving insiders 20% tokens. So it's that kind of thing. So one category of critiques is just about WorldCoin and how it's implemented and how it's being done itself. But going back to those circles, another category is, is basically broader than just WorldCoin sucks. That, that critique. It's a category of all biometric proof of personhood sucks. Like we should never use biometric proof of personhood at all. And going down that path will lead to dystopian outcomes.

• 34:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I was talking to one of my friends, Scott Lewis. He gave me a take that I like to read out, actually. He goes, "Basically, every futurist thinking on biometric scanning has concluded that biometric scanning is absolutely oppressive technology, and there has been a dedicated effort to tell stories where the use of biometric scanning was used by oppressors. Not everyone in the world needs to become a domain expert on exactly why biometric scanning is consensus scary technology in the eyes of generations of science fiction writers to understand that there is a consensus that this stuff should not be F'ed with. Reality land, current governments are the arbiters of who a person is in many, but not all governmental systems. If the initial read of the government seems incorrect to you, you have a clear schedule of codified

• 34:45David Hoffman?

  rights and options to appeal and correct that decision. Replacing that oracle with a profit maximizing corporation composed of Sam Altman cronies who offer zero recourse is much worse. We have a good track record of corporations in similar positions offering no effective recourse to their customers when they are deplatformed. WorldCoin would be in a position to deplatform someone from the literal claim on being a human. Dystopian isn't a feeling in a situation like that. It's inevitable." Which I thought was a good analysis of the whole context, because like, there's a very specific, like critiques of WorldCoin about specific implementations, and then like, there's the broad sweeping strokes of like, the whole vibe is just illegitimate and people are going

• 35:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  across the spectrum. And you just have to trust the vibe. Like, serializing people in this way hasn't worked out well.

• 35:30David Hoffman?

  Yeah, don't serialize people, yeah.

• 35:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Don't serialize people. I mean, one pushback against that take, before we get into it, though, is like, aren't we already being serialized in so many, so many ways?

• 35:40David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm just like, every time I-

• 35:42David Hoffman?

  And this time, we have cryptography. So like, you get to serialize people and then ZK snark it.

• 35:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  I just, I feel like-

• 35:48David Hoffman?

  I think that's a valid take.

• 35:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think our tech companies are already doing that. Every time I stare down at my iPhone to unlock it, right? It's like doing facial recognition, biometric recognition of my face, and it's unlocking it.

• 36:00David Hoffman?

  You know, if you if you don't look at the camera, it won't unlock. It needs your eyes to look at the camera on your

• 36:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, you even look at, you know, kind of Apple's new VR goggles, right? That's just directly iris unlock, iris scanning unlock, right? And I'm

• 36:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah, there's like eight cameras in there.

• 36:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is such a messed up position to be. It's like, I'm excited about that product. And like, maybe I shouldn't be. Maybe I should be fearful of that product. Anyway, so that's another criticism. It's just like biometric proof of personhood descends into all sorts of like corporate dystopianism. There's another critique, I think, which is a which is a good critique and worthwhile. And that's, we already have better decentralized proof of personhood protocols. So Circle, Bright ID, Gitcoin, Passport, Proof of Humanity, these are social graph based. You kind of build a web of trust, right? So I know you, David, so I'm willing to like vouch for you and at your real human being because we've met in person.

• 36:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  So I'll vouch for you and you know, someone else, you'll vouch for that person. You kind of build from the bottom up this social graph based approach. I think that's totally valid and I love those approaches, by the way, and we've talked about them on Bangpli several times. My challenge with those is they just haven't scaled yet, right? Like, we don't have hundreds of thousands or millions of users on these things. And I'm worried that they just might not scale. Maybe we can crack the code here. I'm still optimistic, but that's kind of the worry. But here's my takeaway after this episode. What cypherpunks seem to think about on-chain personhood? First of all, our current state is the nation, right? So we all have passports and the nation can go bad depending on your government.

• 37:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  So if your government goes evil or authoritarian, right? You know, nation-state serialization is going to go bad for you. The second method is biometric. And the criticism, I think, most many in the crypto community say is that, well, anything biometric becomes a corporate evil. Because you need hardware to go collect all of the irises and that ends up being owned by some evil corporation. Maybe Worldcoin is sort of one of those. And so it always descends, it's flawed and can often maybe always descend into a corporate evil. And then number three, social graph, that's that's still decentralized and that really remains our best shot. And I'm sympathetic towards that. I just, I worry that number three is not scalable.

• 38:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  But there's also, David, a whole bunch of people who think we don't need on-chain personhood at all, which was interesting to actually consider. This was from

• 38:26David Hoffman?

  I think that one's a cop out.

• 38:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, this is from Nick. Before you dismiss it, this is from Nick from ENS. He says, "Unpopular opinion: Truly decentralized, trustless civil resistance or proof of humanity is impossible." You know, he's not saying that like, it wouldn't be, it would be great if we could do it. He's saying you can't do it.

• 38:45David Hoffman?

  It's theoretically impossible, yeah.

• 38:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. He says, "We should stop trying to make it work and instead focus on building systems that don't assume individuals are unique humans." So, he's like, "Mission impossible, you can't even do it anyway, so stop trying. We don't need it. We can rethink our systems beyond this." So, that I think is a summary of the crypto community's reaction to all of this and all of the criticism. I want to turn towards something else, though, because there was also some criticism of Bankless. Like, why did Bankless decide to have Worlds going on? What's, what's, what do you want to say about that?

• 39:22David Hoffman?

  Well, it has a ton of attention, and so that if, if people's attention go there, then my attention goes there. Also, there's obviously the poll of like Sam Altman, and then there's obviously also the poll of Sam Altman on Bankless. Like, that's just kind of cool. I will say, you weren't there on that episode because it was Mother's Day, it was like a Sunday. And so I was taking it while I was in the middle of Zuzalu.

• 39:46David Hoffman?

  Why did we have Worlds going on? Well, it's a huge project. It's a massive project. There's only so many proof of personhood projects out there, and this is the only one going after the biometric sector. So like, just as a understanding the scope of like, the crypto rabbit hole, the biometric proof of personhood is a part of the crypto rabbit hole. It's a part of like, the things you can explore. So, I considered it a legitimate place of exploration. Then there was like, also criticisms of like, the way that I managed that interview, which is, I didn't, I didn't really push back on anything. I didn't really have like, any critiques for them. I kind of just let them walk through the project and explain themselves and say, "Here's what this does, and here's how that works, and this is a WorldCoin project." I'm like, "Great, thanks for coming."

• 40:31David Hoffman?

  Granted, I only had 60 minutes, there was a hard stop. And so, that is a extreme constraint on my ability to be thorough. And also, the other half of my ability to be thorough is like, some of the tech stack behind, A, the hardware and the zero-knowledge cryptography that keeps things private, I don't have the skillset to vet that. And so I have to just kind of run on trust and faith of people who actually can be more technical than me. And so my intention of the WorldCoin episode was, hey, crypto universe, hey, Bankless Nation, here's the WorldCoin project, here's an episode with Sam Altman, discuss amongst yourselves. And then I get back to like, Bankless, why the F did you host this, like, these people? Why did you

• 41:12David Hoffman?

  not talk about like, the dystopian nature of this? Why did you like, tee it up in the intro as like, one of crypto's most ambitious projects? And I'm like, I guess I got the vibe wrong. I could have been more critical, I could have pushed back more. But at the end of the day, it's just like, I'm also feeling like I'm caught in the middle of, Bankless, you're so opinionated, why didn't you have an opinion on this one? Like, you're so opinionated about Ether, you're so opinionated about Layer 2s, why didn't you have an opinion on WorldCoin? At the end of the day, it's like, I, sometimes I'm in a particular state, a disposition, a mood, I don't have the mental, like, capacity to be mean to Sam Altman, and a guy who I don't really know who he is, I don't know, I'm asking for forgiveness.

• 41:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Are you really?

• 41:59David Hoffman?

  I guess, yeah.

• 42:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think, so I think, like, I appreciate that. I think that we could have wrapped that episode a little bit differently, but I think what people, maybe, some people don't understand, if they just hear that episode, maybe didn't catch the debrief, or don't understand the wider context of what we do, is like, episode one is kind of like, about WorldCoin, is kind of a conversation starter. It doesn't stop at the first episode we freaking do on WorldCoin, alright?

• 42:26David Hoffman?

  It's not our canonical.

• 42:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  The WorldCoin panel of all of the critics about WorldCoin, we're going to do the episode with all of the decentralized web of trust alternatives to WorldCoin, we're going to do an episode of the pros and the cons, we're going to see how this whole project turns out. So, y'all, that's another element to it.

• 42:43David Hoffman?

  And then there was also the critique that's like, oh yeah, Sam Altman and WorldCoin paid Bankless to co on the podcast. And I've said this, you've said this 10,000 times, and we'll say it 10,000. I take offense to that one. That one, I, yeah, they need to apologize for that one. Bankless has never and will never, ever take money for, for content. That's never happened on the newsletter.

• 43:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  We have no investment interest. We have no investment interest.

• 43:08David Hoffman?

  There's no other investors at Bankless. We're beholden to no one.

• 43:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  People make up, you know, people can make up anything on the internet. Anyway, this was kind of a deeper take too. This is a DeFi cheetah saying, I thought the alternative to WorldCoin was Bankless. Basically the implication of like, why do we even need a WorldCoin? Like, I thought you guys were Bankless and I just wanted to push back on that and support the idea of, of decentralized identity, decentralized proof of personhood. So guys, just so you understand, Bankless is an alternative to banks. But today, nation states provide our core identity. So you get your passport.

• 43:45David Hoffman?

  They are the arbiters of identity.

• 43:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, they are. The AML KYC. It's a passport. It's a license. Banks don't do that. Stateless is the alternative to states. And if we want to do cool things, like one person, one vote, or on-chain credit without relying on the state to need to know who humans are, then we need some sort of decentralized identity. Okay. WorldCoin is building a protocol to tell who the humans are without the state. All right? I don't know if this is going to work out well, or if it's going to be bad. But I, I just saw a lot of anger this week on crypto Twitter about this and some of it is totally warranted. Some of the takes that we just read were completely warranted. Some of it is really uninformed. And my encouragement is basically to channel some of that anger into building.

• 44:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, if we don't like what WorldCoin is building, once we pop the hood and look at it, let's build another alternative. Because that's, that's what we do at crypto. I mean, we're crypto and we build. So that's my encouragement. Let's not give up on decentralized proof of personhood in general. And so I guess my take on all of this, David, after listening to the conversation that you had with Sam Altman and WorldCoin is, like, I'm still undecided about WorldCoin as a technology. I'm cautious. I'm open to it because I hate that AML KYC and state identities is the only way forward for, you know, some of these use cases.

• 45:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  I see decentralized personhood, proof of personhood as an unlock and maybe we can do it, maybe we can't, maybe biometrics is a really bad way to do it. Maybe it's not. I'm kind of taking a wait and see approach. I'm not at this point willing to get orb to myself. All right. So if that gets you a my statement of faith about the world coin project, I wouldn't do it. There's not enough value for me. I'm kind of like, I haven't heard enough compelling reasons why. And I'm not supportive of WLD tokens. I have no comment about that. I have no idea what the value of WLD might be, but it's $21 billion, guys. So just go think about that. What I care about most is the conversation about this that we're having as a community. I think that's important.

• 45:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  And I think that's been opened up in a positive way. And also competition, I just emphasized, if we don't like what world coin is doing, let's build a better decentralized alternative. Yeah. So anyway, that's, that's my take on things.

• 46:03David Hoffman?

  Yeah. On the whole world coin token question, we have a question from the nation, Kyle Kaplan from, from the bank location discord. How does world coin token plan on accruing any value? UBI sounds nice and all, but we all know you just can't print money out of nowhere. I, I think it's a huge question about world coin. Why the F is this thing 21 billion? Is that what it is? 21 billion when it only ever gets issued. Like the only bull case I can articulate for the world coin token is that the humans deem the distribution of world coins so incredibly legitimate and fair that they want to be a part of that very fair network.

• 46:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Competing as a money, isn't it? In the same way Bitcoin, ether and the US dollar and gold is competing.

• 46:46David Hoffman?

  I don't even know if, if it's doing that. I don't even like, I don't even know if they have.

• 46:52David Hoffman?

  I don't, I don't even know if they like Alex Blanier from Worldcoin has a statement about what he thinks about the Worldcoin asset. He probably can't say it because he's the issuer of it. But like, that's a very dubious value accrual. It's just legitimacy in of itself. Plus, when you see Telegram, Snapchat screenshots of people selling, hey, I'll sell you a Worldcoin account for $1. Like, that very much erodes that value proposition. Like, there's other like theses about it. Like, it's a graph for, just because it's fair, like, I don't see the value accrual.

• 47:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, neither do I. I still do think it's competing in the money, the monetary value category, right? And it has to. I just don't think it has a good shot at that. But like, it's not producing transaction fees. It's not a cash flowing asset. So meme value money. But the question from Kyle is interesting. It's like, UBI sounds nice, but we all know you can't just print money out of nowhere. I'm like, yeah. But isn't that what Bitcoin and Ether did? You know what I mean? Like, if you can get a meme bootstrapped and kickstarted, and enough people believe in a money, in the story-

• 48:00David Hoffman?

  They can solve the problem later.

• 48:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, you can solve the problem now. I don't think that's the path that Worldcoin is on. But I'm saying that if there is a path to it being worth billions of dollars, my take is the path is going to be a bunch of people believe it's a monetary instrument, and it's used as a monetary instrument.

• 48:16David Hoffman?

  I, yeah, I'm so perish on that. I'm so perish. Because then it competes right next to Bitcoin and Ether. Like, it's not going to survive that fight.

• 48:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Nation, you can make your own decision on Worldcoin. If you haven't caught David's conversation with Sam Altman and Alex from Worldcoin, then go ahead and catch it. There's a link in the show notes, and also it should be in your RSS player. David, enough about Worldcoin. Let's do a good bill, bad bill. There's some good news in Congress for crypto, at least the US Congress. So, this bill hasn't passed, but it's a set of bills that are very positive for crypto. And they were just voted on by the House Financial Services Committee, and they passed that vote, which is a pretty big deal, apparently. Jake Chervinsky calls this vote "a historic day for crypto policy." There's two bills that are wrapped up in this in the House that are pretty crypto positive. The first is called the Financial Innovation and Technology for the 21st Century Act.

• 49:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  So this is a framework for issuance and trading of digital assets at the SEC and CFTC. You know, that whole clarity of like, what's a commodity and what's a security? This bill directly addresses that. So we actually get some clarity here, the thing that Gary Gensler never gave us. That's what the the FIT is doing for us, and that's part one. Part two, David, is the Blockchain Regulatory Certainty Act. It clarifies that non-custodial blockchain developers and service providers, this would be like miners, validators, if you're an at-home validator, wallet providers, that they never custody consumer funds and don't have to register as money transmitters. You know, the nightmare scenario of you run your own solo validator?

• 49:53David Hoffman?

  That's like the earliest bill that came in that like deemed that, hey, if you're part of it, if you run a node, you process a transaction, there will have to be a money service. That was that was the very first like crypto like fire alarm that we had.

• 50:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, my God, it would be so scary. It would basically mean that it's kind of illegal without being registered to be a validator in the US. Yeah, the good news here is that this is bipartisan. So 35 members voted for it versus 16, 35 to 15 it won. And 25% of those 35 were actually Democrats. So some bipartisan support that we haven't seen. Tom Emmer, of course, led it. I want to play you this quote from Richie Torres. He's on the Democrat side, and he was weighing in on comments for it. Here it goes.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll just offer a few thoughts. I mean, there are profound philosophical differences on the subject of crypto. And there's almost no point in relitigating those differences because it's been extensively debated here today. But I find myself unpersuaded. By the notion that the status quo is working. You know, a status quo that gave us the largest crypto Ponzi scheme in history is not working. It's by definition failing. My assessment is that the status quo is dangerously deregulated and requires regulation. Albert Einstein said, if we do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result, that's the definition of insanity.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  And the time has come for us to break the cycle of insanity that governs the application of securities law to digital assets. Now, there's a difference between securities law as we as individuals might think it ought to be interpreted and securities law as it has been interpreted by the courts. And the Southern District of New York has held.

• 51:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I really like Richie Torres. That guy is great. Yeah. Big fan. Great comments there. And the one thing we wanted Congress to do is to provide clarity, and that's what this bill is doing. So Tom Emmer is going to be one of the architects of this bill. I think the next time we catch him will probably be at the permissionless conference. It's happening in September. We're throwing that conference with Blockworks. That's the 11th through the 13th. This is going to be a topic of discussion with Tom Emmer. Yep. For sure. David, we got a bad bill, though, too. It's coming from the Senate. You ready for that one? Oh, no. It's sad. In contrast to that, the Senate is proposing a bill. I'm going to read you the title here. It's called the Crypto Asset National Security Enhancement Act of 2023. Did you catch that?

• 52:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't like those words. National Security Enhancement Act? I don't give a F what's in that. I don't like it. Yes, you know, it's going to sound a little Orwellian when it has national security and crypto asset in it. Enhancement. This one is also bipartisan, but only unfortunately, it's bipartisan. Again, this is coming from the Senate. But basically, it mandates that DeFi protocols and anyone who controls them or makes them available have to impose bank-like surveillance for their users. So that would mean DeFi controllers, right, need to vet and collect information. From the customers, have to do the AML thing, have to report suspicious activity of the government,

• 53:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  have to block sanctioned individual users from their protocols. Do you remember the stuff that SBF was advocating like a year ago? And some of the crypto legislation that he was like proposing being like, you know, I think all DeFi protocols, interfaces, app user interfaces should have AML KYC and complete state surveillance and are basically money transmitter banks. Yeah, it's a, it's a lot of that. Bill Hughes from Consensus has some takes. He said, this thing is a doozy. He says, in summary, it deems that digital asset protocols defined really as any software deployed on chain is controlled by, that's controlled by backers. And the backers are those who develop or retain meaningful control over the protocols

• 53:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  and transaction facilitators who develop and make available applications that facilitate use of the protocols. Basically, what this means is that any US originating or residing person or an entity who invests more than $25 million in building a protocol or owns that much or more in the governance token, if you even just own the governance token, okay?

• 54:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Anyone who develops and offers the front end of the users or owns the governance tokens would deem to be in control of the protocol for sanctions and AML purposes. National security enhancement. Get the F out of here. They're just, they're just like saying every user of crypto, get the F out of the way. We need to catch North Korea. Basically, and for entrepreneurs or those investing in kind of like, you know, governance protocols or those building interfaces on top of protocols that, you know, some bad actor might use, they would be part of the responsibility tree here. So Bill concludes this by saying, if this legislation goes through, bye bye permissionless global computing, at least as the US is concerned.

• 55:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Really bad news. And I think David, this right here is like Gensler is kind of a sideshow compared to this. To me, you know, when crypto talks about the final boss, this right here, national security. National security is the final boss. If like, if crypto dies in the US, it'll be to protect us from terrorists and bad guys. And that's why this bill is kind of worrying, coming from the center side of things.

• 55:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Anyway, we got good news and bad news this week.

• 55:28David Hoffman?

  Ignore this one and just hope that for the best.

• 55:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, well, you know, we got some good news coming up in the next section. What are we talking about, David?

• 55:35David Hoffman?

  Coming up next, optimism drops the law of chains. I'll walk you through all of what that means. And CoinDesk is being sold to my first boss in crypto. I'll tell her to talk to you about that. Chainlink launches the CCIP protocol, all these things and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, especially MetaMask portfolio. You already have a MetaMask account, so your MetaMask portfolio is waiting for you. There is a link in the show notes to open up your portfolio with MetaMask. Let's go hear from them right now. Are you a MetaMask user? Well, you're listening to Bankless, so of course you are. The wallet you know and love just got a whole lot better. MetaMask portfolio is the ultimate one-stop shop for all of your crypto needs. It gives you a holistic view of your crypto portfolio across multiple chains and multiple

• 56:19David Hoffman?

  addresses all at once. You can easily view and manage all your coins, tokens and NFTs in one convenient place just by connecting your wallet. MetaMask portfolio goes beyond just viewing your portfolio, though. Inside the portfolio, you can do all the incredible money verbs that make DeFi so powerful. You can buy, swap, bridge and stake your crypto assets with ease. It's like having a powerful battle station for all your DeFi moves right at your fingertips. So if you're looking to do more in Web3 your way, MetaMask portfolio is the answer. I already know that you have MetaMask wallet, so go check out your MetaMask portfolio. Learn more at metamask.io/portfolio. Arbitrum is accelerating the Web3 landscape with a suite of secure Ethereum scaling solutions. Hundreds of projects have already deployed onto Arbitrum 1.

• 57:02David Hoffman?

  With a flourishing DeFi and NFT ecosystem, Arbitrum Nova is quickly becoming a Web3 gaming hub and social dApps like Reddit are also calling Arbitrum home. And now Arbitrum Orbit allows you to use Arbitrum's secure scaling technology to build your own Layer 3, giving you access to interoperable, customizable permissions with dedicated throughput. All of these technologies leverage the security and decentralization of Ethereum and provide a builder experience that's intuitive, familiar and fully EVM compatible. Faster transaction speeds and significantly lower gas fees. Arbitrum empowers you to explore and build without compromise. Visit arbitrum.com Where you can join the community, dive into the developer docs, bridge your assets, and start building your first app on Arbitrum. The law of chains, optimism drops the law of chains version zero.

• 57:47David Hoffman?

  So what is this law of chains? It's starting off as a document. It's a document, kind of like, I don't know, a constitution of sorts that is going to be iterated on in the OP stack world, in the world of optimism governance. The idea here is the problems that we have are the OP stack is getting forked and deploy new chains like almost every single day, right? We got base, we got Zora, we got the world coin token chain as well. There's a few others ones as well. Oh, yeah, we didn't mention that. World coin is deploying in the OP stack. Yeah, I mentioned it. We mentioned it. People are forking the OP stack. I don't want like putting world coin back in the closet. Dave wants to forget about that.

• 58:25David Hoffman?

  The OP stack is getting forked. So now there's all these OP stack standard chains, more chains than what can be managed. So like, what do you expect users to do to go to MetaMask and dropdown and go to like, okay, here's OP section one, OP section two. No, we want just one. And so this is the law of chains is the first step along that process. So from the law, this is what I wrote in the tweet, from the law of chains spawns the OP super chain. This is where we're going. And so because of every single new OP stack chain is a different chain, we still want them to behave like one chain. But since adding new OP stack chains to the world is completely free, completely open, completely, completely permissionless, how do we actually determine what is in the

• 59:10David Hoffman?

  super chain versus out of the super chain? Because, you know, any since anyone can fork the OP stack and spin up a new chain, that chain could be a rug. That chain could be, you know, an exploit. That could be a bad chain. So if we want all of these OP stack chains to converge into the super chain, they all need to pass a certain threshold of quality assurances. And this is what the law of chains puts forth. It's you must be this good or higher to be included into the super chain. And so this is the document that the OP community is working on to determine what is that line? What is that threshold for inclusion? And after that, we can start to have collective bargaining power for all the OP stack chains that are in the superchain. And so what does that mean?

• 59:54David Hoffman?

  The cost to spin up a new EtherScan, like Optimism EtherScan, RBScan, PolyScan, or, you know, talking to Infura or Alchemy, these are, it all takes, those are deals that have to be inked. That has labor costs. But when all of these OP stack chains are formed under the same standard with a very strong level of quality assurances, all of a sudden, all of those can cohere into one single collective of chains. And so EtherScan and all these people can start to treat these chains as equivalent because they are. And so this is what the law of chains has started to kick off.

• 1:00:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is it basically like, what is it though, David? Is it like a document that, is it like a?

• 1:00:34David Hoffman?

  It's a proposal of standards.

• 1:00:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's a proposal of standards.

• 1:00:36David Hoffman?

  It's a document that is proposing standards.

• 1:00:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. And then, basically, these are the standards for joining like the Confederacy of all of these, all of these chains. And if you meet this threshold, then you can be adopted into this Confederacy of chains. Is there some sort of like formal body that votes and is like, yeah, this chain's good, that that chain's bad, we're letting this one in, we're booting the other chain? Or is this, are we not there yet? The first step is just to establish?

• 1:01:00David Hoffman?

  I believe that is a part of the process that is being proposed. That is what needs to be figured out.

• 1:01:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, very interesting. There's some takes about this too, including from Alex from the ZK Sync. What did he say?

• 1:01:13David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I thought this was pretty funny. So Alex has, he is on Team ZK Stack. So this is a, in the Layer 2 Wars, this is a Layer 2 Wars tweet. And so he's going TLDR, OP Stack, many chains, one choice, single shared sequencer, centralized MEV distribution, protected by laws and governance. And then he goes, ZK Stack, many chains, many choices. Pick your own sequencer, handle MEV your way, protected by math and code. We are not the same.

• 1:01:42David Hoffman?

  But then his next tweet kind of walks himself back a little bit and goes, I must add, although my preference for individual sovereignty is obvious, I admire optimism's brilliant work on governance and public goods funding mechanism designs. We all learn by winning from each other, making Ethereum layer two ecosystems return stronger. So some spicy takes out of Alex, out of this whole like law of change thing. I will say, I mean, got to give credit to where the credit's due. Optimism has all the chains. Like they've got, they've got base, they've got mental, they've got world coin, if you care about that, but I'm putting that one back in the closet. They've got Zora, which is a Tezos, like the media network, but now on Ethereum. And so like you got it. And so when we were looking at the stats earlier of like optimism beating trumping Arbitrum

• 1:02:26David Hoffman?

  in transactions, that's just main net. That's not, what about all the other chains? What happens when all they, all of those chains form into the super chain? That I think is really cool. We're going to do a podcast with Jesse and Ben on this whole concept because the, the negotiation between Coinbase and the OP collective as to help, what does, what does that relationship look like? Has carved out like room for this whole law of change thing. So this is a big learning moment for everyone.

• 1:02:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, since you're being the optimistic roll up bull, allow me to be the kind of the, the ZK roll up bull for a second. What I would say is this is just the first inning, though, David. And like, we got a lot more innings. And it's actually a miracle that ZK roll up technology has kind of come to market so quickly. And I do think that there's something to this last point that Alex said, which is protected by math and code rather than laws and governance. It's basically like ZK cryptography, it's magic moon math, right? And you could do things with ZK that you can't do with fraud proofs. That might-

• 1:03:26David Hoffman?

  You know what you can do with ZK, Ryan? You can turn an optimistic chain into a ZK chain.

• 1:03:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let the games begin. I think we'll have to see how it plays out. And again, check layer two beat for the progress here. But this is just the first inning.

• 1:03:40David Hoffman?

  And disclosures, Ryan and I love the OP stack and the ZK stack so much. We are advisors to both optimism and ZK sync, the producers of both the OP stack and ZK stacks. Really, the common denominator is we just love stacks. I love stacks. I love them. I think they're so great.

• 1:03:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Love decentralization. Speaking of stacks, David? Starknet still building in the background. This is of course a ZK centric ecosystem as well. They announced last week that they are incredibly excited to introduce Starknet app chains. They say Starknet is

• 1:04:10David Hoffman?

  They're announcing a stack. That's what they it's their stack. Now they have a stack.

• 1:04:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, this is an app chain stack as well. So this is another fantastic team who's building the Starknet stack in the ecosystem. And it's interesting to see this. This came about in our Polygon conversation earlier this week with the founders of Polygon. It's just like there's some convergence in layer twos to like the stack based model, where you have your kind of general purpose EVM type of chain. And then you have app chains and you're creating like a full stack for chain developers to deploy to your ecosystem. And all of the ecosystems are competing against one another. They're also working together in some weird ways against other side chains and alternatives. It's yeah, it's a very interesting time to be in crypto on the infrastructure side, I'd say.

• 1:04:58David Hoffman?

  I love it. I love it so much. It's like, finally, it took two years more than I thought it'd take to get to this point. But finally, here we are. Uri, Uri Kalodny of Starkware, he will also be at Permissionless. So if you are interested in the Starkware stack, he'll be at Permissionless.

• 1:05:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, I got to ask you because all of the tweets we've been reading out this week, I don't even know if they're tweets any longer because this is called

• 1:05:22David Hoffman?

  Okay, we're doing this.

• 1:05:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, we're doing this. Elon Musk has just transformed Twitter into X, the everything app. All right, see the big X on the top left? No longer Twitter. This whole thing is called X. It's a big rebrand. And this is part of his plan to make, I guess, Twitter now, now X into some kind of super app. What's your take on this so far, David?

• 1:05:44David Hoffman?

  Actually, it's worth noting that X.com was Elon's first startup that actually made him his first money. I'm really fuzzy on the details, but like he's had X.com for a long time. That was like, it's something to do with PayPal. It was like one of his first startups. It was going to be an online bank, actually, like a startup. And it was going to be the X bank. And so this is not Elon's first flirtation with this whole X thing. So he's like pulling this out from downtown, like out of his pocket that he's, you know, just been kept up his sleeve. And now Twitter is now X. There's so many things to talk about it. I don't even know if we have enough time to go into it, but it's like, man, they're called tweets.

• 1:06:27David Hoffman?

  The bird is blue. It's a blue bird. Everyone knows it's Twitter, it's Facebook, it's Instagram. And all of that is just completely thrown down the trash. Like, brands take forever to get built. And now, we have this extremely basic X thing. They're called Zeets, X-E-E-T-S. We're supposed to be Zeding. Now, we had a Spaces with Taylor Monahan. And are they X Spaces now? Because that sounds dirty. I don't want to be in an X space with anyone on Twitter. Or, excuse me, on X.com. Okay, so my take about when Elon first bought Twitter was, it's probably getting break and get clunky. And then if he can do it, it'll get better from there.

• 1:07:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13David Hoffman?

  But it has gotten so much worse than I've ever thought possible. And he's trying to rotate it into a super app. Like, you're really testing my conviction, Elon. Like, I'm not enjoying this.

• 1:07:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I mean, he's saying some pretty bold things. Like, if done right, X would become half of the global financial system, right?

• 1:07:29David Hoffman?

  What do you mean he's saying pretty bold things? He only says bold things.

• 1:07:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, this is like...

• 1:07:33David Hoffman?

  Elon only says bold things.

• 1:07:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, this is, I mean, is he going to incorporate crypto? What's that going to look like in the future? I just got to be honest on the branding of this. You look at kind of the left versus the right, and this was someone's take. Going to be honest, this new widget design looks like an app for membership, for membership-only human trafficking gentleman's club headquartered in Budapest. I mean, look how...

• 1:07:53David Hoffman?

  Is your, my app is, my phone is still Twitter. It's still a blue bird for me. Is yours an X now?

• 1:07:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's, I don't think it's turned into an X, but just the top left, even here. I don't know. I haven't looked at that, but like, the top...

• 1:08:03David Hoffman?

  So many of these things don't make sense now, because now we have the Twitter blue. If you have that circle tweet button, it's a feather.

• 1:08:11David Hoffman?

  Elon!

• 1:08:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:08:13David Hoffman?

  Stop messing with my life.

• 1:08:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's a broader, I think, conversation here, which is, this may be a rumor. I'm not sure what to make of this, David. But this tweet says, "Yesterday, the owner of Twitter handle @X tried to sell it for $1 million. And minutes ago, Twitter, or X, Elon, took it away from him and transferred the old @Twitter account to it. And the owner received $0." This could be some speculation here, but the point is, like, your handle...

• 1:08:39David Hoffman?

  You don't know.

• 1:08:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  On Twitter, your handle on X, you don't own.

• 1:08:43David Hoffman?

  Is Elon's.

• 1:08:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's not a domain name.

• 1:08:45David Hoffman?

  Elon's handle.

• 1:08:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's not, it's, so one thing I guess I'll say is... Maybe I'll give credit to Elon in this. I think Twitter has always toed the line of trying to be like a public square and like a public good and an open protocol, but like that being a facade and not really doing it well, you know? It's just like, well, if it's an open protocol.

• 1:09:09David Hoffman?

  It was a private company trying to produce a public square and they did a pretty good job of it, but it was still a private company at the end of the day.

• 1:09:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Then it started to like fracture, right? Like, well, do you censor a tweet or not? Well, if it's a public good, you don't, but if it's a private company, then you do. Elon has completely ripped the mask off of that. This is very clearly a private company. This is Elon's app. When I tweet, I am tweeting on X, Elon's private property. I'm, I know my position in this ecosystem. I am a serf for like Lord Elon, basically. And so I know that at least, and I can choose whether I want to continue to invest in this or not. I think a lot of people will, will choose to pursue more open, real, public alternatives. And maybe that's where Web three and crypto finally starts to take off. But at least with Elon, we kind of know where we stand.

• 1:09:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is a private company and a private application. And as a user, you can either use it or not, but you don't necessarily have, have, have rights on this platform. You don't have any assets that you own.

• 1:10:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah. I, I want this story to hurry up and finish. Like, can we just, can we get to the super app or can we go back to Twitter? But this like limbo, I don't like being here.

• 1:10:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is a feel awkward stage. Speaking of awkward, I don't know if you call this awkward or progress here. RFK Junior just confirmed that he purchased 14 Bitcoin, David. So he's now joined the club officially. That's $415,000 worth of Bitcoin. Yeah, $414,000. So he's officially part of the Church of Bitcoin. He's a holder at this point in time. I don't know if he's doing that for investment purposes or what.

• 1:10:45David Hoffman?

  Knowing the little bit I know about RFK, he fits right in.

• 1:10:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, take that as you will, RFK. David.

• 1:10:54David Hoffman?

  Ryan, do you remember my first job in crypto?

• 1:10:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Didn't you work for like some shady ICOs or something?

• 1:11:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  No?

• 1:11:03David Hoffman?

  No, even worse, dude. It was an ICO advisory agency.

• 1:11:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow. David, the scammer?

• 1:11:10David Hoffman?

  I mean, only in hindsight. In the moment, I thought I was leading a revolution. I was a mere community manager. I would write blogs.

• 1:11:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Fair.

• 1:11:17David Hoffman?

  Anyways, I worked for this company called New Alchemy, which was a, it did a big few, a big number of ICOs, Aion Network, like A-I-O-N, if you remember that, 2017.

• 1:11:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Interoperability. I remember that.

• 1:11:27David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then everything ground to a halt when we realized that all these ICOs that were doing are securities. And that's actually where I got my securities training. Anyways, like my knowledge base. Anyways, the owner of New Alchemy was this guy, Peter Vestnis. He was my first ever crypto boss. And so his, after that company blew up, he's been in Bitcoin since forever. He's now in like a family office VC firm, Capital Six. And him and Matthew Rosnak, which is another name I have not heard of really long time. One of the, another one project that we did was called Metronome, which I think Matthew from, I think he's from.

• 1:12:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  I remember Metronome.

• 1:12:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I remember Metronome. Metronome was cool. Anyways, that investor group has offered $125 million for CoinDesk, the news agency, which we frequently use here on the weekly rollup. And so my old boss and a few other of his, you know, investor friends have offered $125 million for CoinDesk. So I don't know if this is going to go through, but everything sounds like it will. So yeah.

• 1:12:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think an important detail there of why is CoinDesk selling? It's because parent company DCG has been in some financial trouble recently. And so.

• 1:12:34David Hoffman?

  They need to liquidate. Yeah, they need, they have like a billion dollar hole. So they've got eight hundred, over a billion dollar hole. So they've got like, you know, about a billion dollars left to fill.

• 1:12:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Got some bills to pay.

• 1:12:44David Hoffman?

  Too much.

• 1:12:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. So CoinDesk might be a casualty of that.

• 1:12:47David Hoffman?

  Hey, you know, 125 million is 125 million.

• 1:12:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  There you go. David.

• 1:12:50David Hoffman?

  So congrats to everyone at CoinDesk. You now work for my old boss.

• 1:12:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  So does that mean they work for you in any way? Or is there no relation?

• 1:12:59David Hoffman?

  No, it does not mean that. That's not how that works.

• 1:13:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Synthetix is releasing something big, something new. David, what's Kane Warwick up to these days?

• 1:13:08David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so Kane Warwick is releasing Infinix as a layer on top of Synthetix to help go toe to toe with centralized platforms, centralized exchanges. And so this is just kind of a more user friendly layer on top of Synthetix. And so it is just normal registration, like a centralized exchange username, email, password. And it will sign you a unique margin account for every user. No, no new token. So it removes all the steps for participating on Synthetix because Synthetix now is on optimism. So you don't have to bridge there anymore. You don't have to require SUSD. You don't need to sign every action. It's probably going to look and feel a lot like Coinbase or any other centralized exchange, but you do have an Ethereum address. So this is going to release alongside Synthetix V3 later this year.

• 1:13:54David Hoffman?

  Anyone can join. And so beta testing is currently in process.

• 1:13:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's great. You know, you know, I think partially what screwed us over in 2022 is BlockFi, Celsius, all of these centralized C5, like they were so easy to use. It was just, the app just worked. And DeFi really hasn't had that. So if we can smooth out the user experience, then I think we can really grow this cycle.

• 1:14:18David Hoffman?

  One, one theme I've been noticing, Ryan, Compound, the comp token recently has a really strong performance. Uniswap is releasing Uniswap X, even though I don't think the token price is doing all that crazy of things. Synthetix volume is painting numbers, bro. $500 million in a single day from Quanta, which is basically another Synthetix like plugin. So if you scroll down, you see that little chart. Synthetix has never been used more than it has now. Like, look at those numbers. That's the most it's ever been used since its existence.

• 1:14:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  OG DeFi is making a comeback.

• 1:14:49David Hoffman?

  OG DeFi is, is, well, yeah, it's like, turns out that, remember the whole DeFi 2.0 mania phase? That was actually the top. Yeah, it turns out, no, it's DeFi 1.0, man.

• 1:14:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  DeFi 1.0, that's upgrading to 2.0 in the background quietly.

• 1:15:03David Hoffman?

  Something that is actually new into the DeFi world, Superfluid has introduced Superfluid subscriptions. So, Superfluid is a streaming payments startup. So if you would like to trickle pennies in microtransactions over time, Superfluid is that. They are releasing Superfluid subscriptions. So you can manage access to software, APIs, content, community, however you want to see fit. So that's something that's been released. It's been a long talked about use case in crypto, theoretically use case.

• 1:15:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Streaming money, forever.

• 1:15:30David Hoffman?

  Streaming money. No, and it has been used in gaming, I think, has it's gotten some traction, but I haven't personally seen a use case for it that has impacted my life. But I did throw Superfluid over to our web developer, Ryan, say like, "Hey, does this, does this work? Can you slap this into bankless.com?" And so he's investigating that. Disclaimer, I am an investor in Superfluid. Ryan is not, because he forgot to sign the document.

• 1:15:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and I lost that email. I didn't sign those papers. Oh, well.

• 1:15:59David Hoffman?

  Sorry about that one, bro.

• 1:16:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bullshit on the use case.

• 1:16:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know what? This is also kind of a bullshit use case, I think, for Chainlink. They just lost their cross-chain interoperability protocol. CCIP is what this stands for. David, this reminds me a lot of what Layer Zero is doing, if you're familiar with that.

• 1:16:16David Hoffman?

  Layer Zero, but Chainlink flavored this time.

• 1:16:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, well, for those that aren't familiar with Layer Zero and with what Chainlink is doing here, can you kind of describe what this CCIP protocol, what the CCIP features is actually adding?

• 1:16:31David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so the first step to transferring tokens across chains is transferring messages across chain, because actually tokens and data, they're all the same thing. And so this starts there, but it's basically a cross-chain messaging platform. Since Chainlink has the security of the linked token being staked, and it has some amount of assurances about passing messages. So you start there, and then you can build up further and further use cases. And so, cross-chain collateral deposits, cross-chain NFTs, cross-chain gaming, cross-chain data storage and computation.

• 1:16:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's like a super bridge.

• 1:16:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it's like a super bridge. Yeah, mesh network bridge thing.

• 1:17:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  But it's more than that, because you can build on top of it, right? If you want to build an app that, like, you know, supports multiple chains underneath, like Avalanche and, you know, other EVM chains, Layer 2 and Ethereum, then you can build that on top of this new protocol on Chainlink, is that right?

• 1:17:19David Hoffman?

  Yes, I believe so. That's right. I have not looked too deeply into this, because A, I don't really like bridges to begin with, and B, the Chainlink army is always up in my mentions, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

• 1:17:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I agree. But at the same time, Chainlink has always had great tech, right? They support a lot of the oracles in the space. So they're doing some good things. Flashbots has become a unicorn after a $60 million raise. So unicorn status is a billion or above. That is Flashbots, the MEV platform. There's a lot of conversation about the development of what they're calling Suave, which is a new MEV chain. It almost seems to me it's like it's a marketplace for block builders and searchers and the whole kind of-

• 1:18:06David Hoffman?

  All the participants of how a block becomes a block, it's like a marketplace. It's a chain marketplace for them.

• 1:18:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  I feel like we need a series of episodes on what's going on in the block builder supply chain space to like fully unpack this and understand it. But it seems like private investors are understanding and willing to upgrade. But in the meantime, I think there's going to be a lot of MEV folks, including Hsu at Permissionless. That conference will be another nice check-in. So another reminder to grab your-

• 1:18:33David Hoffman?

  There's a theme of this week.

• 1:18:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  If you haven't. The theme is accumulate and grab a Permissionless ticket. David, we got a lot more to talk about, though. What's coming up next?

• 1:18:42David Hoffman?

  Yeah, questions from the nation. We got an Eigenlayer question. They seem to be pretty frequent this week. Then we got a Takes of the Week. I got a take from Mike Ipatio. We'll talk about Bridges there. And then I wrote an article. And so there's five takes in there that I'm going to burn through really quickly. And then, of course, what Ryan and I are bullish on. And we got a hot meme. It's very hot. It's very hot. You want to stick around for that. So all of that and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Mantle, formerly known as BitDow, is the first DAO-led Web3 ecosystem, all built on top of Mantle's first core product, the Mantle Network, a brand-new, high-performance Ethereum Layer 2 built using the OP stack, but uses Eigenlayer's data availability solution instead of the expensive Ethereum Layer 1. Not only does this reduce Mantle Network's gas fees by 80%, but it also reduces gas fee volatility,

• 1:19:26David Hoffman?

  providing a more stable foundation for Mantle's applications. The Mantle Treasury is one of the biggest DAO-owned treasuries, which is seeding an ecosystem of projects from all around the Web3 space for Mantle. Mantle already has sub-communities from around Web3 on-boarded, like Game7 for Web3 Gaming and- Bybit for TVL and liquidity and on-ramps. So if you want to build on the Mantle network, Mantle is offering a grants program that provides milestone-based funding to promising projects that help expand, secure, and decentralize Mantle. If you want to get started working with the first DAO-led Layer 2 ecosystem, check out Mantle at mantle.xyz and follow them on Twitter at @zeroxmantle. Hiring people worldwide, paying them in crypto, providing them access to benefits, it all's so complex, but it doesn't have to be.

• 1:20:09David Hoffman?

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• 1:20:51David Hoffman?

  So transform your employment and token payroll operations with Toku. You can reach out to Toku at toku.com/bankless or click the link in the show notes.

• 1:21:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Question of the week coming from onium.eith. The question is this: "It seems to me that Eigenlayer's positioning Ethereum as a kind of security reserve for other blockchains, much like how the US dollar serves as a reserve currency, providing economic security globally. By enabling Ethereum's security to cross borders into other Layer 1s, Eigenlayer appears to be enhancing the overall security of the blockchain ecosystem." The question is this: "Could you delve into this analogy and discuss the implications of this security globalization?" Hmm, I like that term. "How could this impact the future of Ethereum and other blockchains?" This idea of security globalization and Eigenlayer, what's your take here?

• 1:21:38David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's a really good question. You can definitely tell onium.eith who asked that question. Thanks, Onium. It's like, that's a Bankless vibe question, putting these things into geopolitical, country, nation-state terms. So like, the United States passport, probably the most valuable passport in the world. That's probably a fair take. You can get into the most countries with a United States passport. Like, you can just walk across almost anywhere and everyone's like, "Oh, welcome to our country." I think what they're getting at is that Ether does the same thing for all of the restaking networks. So all these restaking networks is like, oh, you're Ether? Please welcome and you know, sit yourself down and also consider providing us some services while you're here. It's pretty, pretty similar, I'd say. Why does, why did Eigenlayer choose Ether?

• 1:22:22David Hoffman?

  Why didn't it choose Bitcoin? Why didn't it choose Solana? Well, it couldn't choose Bitcoin because Bitcoin's not proof of stake and it's not a smart contract. Why did it choose Ether over Solana? Well, because Ether has all the economic bandwidth. It has all the value. You, if you're going to have a system where you need to have your collateral, to be trusted, you need to post collateral, you need to post the best collateral possible on the network that has all of the networks. And so that is just Ethereum. And so this is part of the story of capital begets capital begets capital. And so you just are, the most number of doors are open to you. And so your security, your collateral can transcend across boundaries because those boundaries desire your capital the most. And I think there's pretty strong parallels with

• 1:23:06David Hoffman?

  what Onium is saying here. Hopefully that was unpacking that analogy enough to their satisfaction.

• 1:23:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, the only thing I would add to that is like the direct answer to the question to me is how does this impact the future of Ethereum in the context of reserve currency status? My take is it cements Ether.

• 1:23:22David Hoffman?

  Oh, big time.

• 1:23:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  The reserve currency of not just Ethereum, but of like crypto and all of the other blockchains. In the same way that kind of the dollar has been reinforced through the US's military security and economic prowess as the reserve currency of the world. Like the liquidity and the network effect that you were just talking about, like the capital begets capital, security begets security sort of network effect, that just compounds if Eigenlayer is successful. Right? Because the

• 1:23:55David Hoffman?

  Imagine there being like 10, 15, 20 tokens on CoinGecko and their Layer 1 tokens or their network tokens and they're secured by Ethereum.

• 1:24:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I mean, it is just, it is probably the, the single most bullish thing if this takes off for Ether the asset since, I don't know, staking, since ultrasound money, since EIP 1559, like, it's absolutely massive, I think, in its ability to build network effect. All right, let's go to some takes of the week, David.

• 1:24:24David Hoffman?

  Coming in with takes of the week, we only have two. This is Mike from Blockworks, and this is a post-EECC take. He goes, if there's one thing I learned from Paris, it's that market makers are bridges now. And this is a conversation that's slowly been brewing, and I think really has crescendoed with Uniswap X, Uniswap X, also CalSwap, I think also perhaps Swav itself. These are all platforms that allow for bridges to be completely abstracted and also like kind of largely routed around. It's really bridge minimalism.

• 1:24:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Almost obsolete, right?

• 1:24:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah, you still need them, but you need them in the minimal fashion.

• 1:25:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Need them a lot less.

• 1:25:03David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and so why is that true? It's because market makers, what does it mean? Like, why are market makers bridges now? Say, Ryan, you have Ether on the Ethereum Layer 1, and you would like to have DAI on the Optimism Layer 2. Instead of hopping, instead of making a trade on Uniswap and then hopping over a bridge, what you can do is you can just post a transaction, not even submit a transaction to Ethereum, but broadcast a transaction that says to any market maker, hey, I have this much Ether, give me as much DAI as possible on the chain that I want it to be on.

• 1:25:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, I just broadcast my intent. I don't actually have to commit to the transaction.

• 1:25:38David Hoffman?

  Right. Uh huh. And then a market maker is like, well, I'll take that deal. And maybe a different market maker is like, well, I'll take that deal too, but I'll do it better. And all of a sudden, the free market fulfills your order and puts your assets that you want and the place that you want, and you never had to touch a bridge. And like, the, the bridge security is like minimized. And so this is kind of the meta that has been unfolding is like, bridges are kind of just being routed around.

• 1:26:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, this is another series of Bankless episodes, honestly, to get into this whole world of intents rather than transactions. I feel like we need some content on this to fully unpack and understand it. But yeah, that is an emerging meta here. David, what are some other things you learned from ECC? I saw you put a post out in the Bankless newsletter this week, so what were some of your key takeaways?

• 1:26:24David Hoffman?

  So, yeah, I actually took some time and wrote out an article about my big takeaways from ECC. It's about 2,500 words, and I'm going to read it. Let's go. I'm kidding. I'm just reading the headlines. The big ones are, protocols are becoming commodities. My big TLDR here is that by the time the next bull market comes around, the cost of Web 3 compute, trustless computation, data, whatever we need to do Web 3 things, we'll have approached its theoretical minimum. Like, that's one of my big takeaways. And you can explain my reasoning and all the tidbits of data that I have about that. So that's the first one. Second one, protocol convergence and verticalization. So Aave just launched the GoStablecoin. Maker Dow just launched Sparks, which is an Aave-type money market.

• 1:27:09David Hoffman?

  Frax has already had both of these things, and they also have their own internal LSD. So these things are all starting to, A, become verticalized, and B, converge in their same design patterns. We already have the convergence.

• 1:27:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's like all the DeFi protocols are becoming stacks.

• 1:27:26David Hoffman?

  It's all the stacks. We have all the stacks, and so those are all converging on the same design patterns. Then you have Uniswap X becoming a vertical on top of Uniswap. So there's a bunch of convergence and verticalization going on. So that was my next big one. But then after that, it's like, okay, we have protocols that are maximally cheap. We have DeFi apps that are becoming maximally like as vertical and wide as possible. It's now time to think of the consumer. And I don't only just mean more apps to buy more block space, but can we build frontends? Like Infinix, like what Kane is doing at Synthetix, can we build frontends? Can we build apps? Can we start doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on building consumer-level stuff?

• 1:28:08David Hoffman?

  That is built for people that have never touched a private key. That's my call to action on there. And then my last big takeaway is the Modular Summit versus ETH/CC. There's two different conferences here. Some of it is just like the different dispositions of who you find where. But my big takeaway from Modular Summit is like, that whole community, which is like the Celestia Espresso, the Layer 2s, the Eigenlayer, that side of crypto is just racing out into the frontier. They are developing and discovering things so quickly. They are the actual frontier of thought, I'd say. And so that's my takeaway there. And then just as a conclusion, if you haven't caught the theme of this episode yet, next up is Permissionless. So that's gonna be where the next Bankless meetup is and the Bankless party.

• 1:28:52David Hoffman?

  It's gonna be like 200-plus people for all of our citizens and friends and everyone we wanna party with.

• 1:28:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's awesome, man. Those are some good takeaways. Each of those could be episodes as well. I feel like we need to dive into the big topics some more.

• 1:29:05David Hoffman?

  This is true.

• 1:29:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  What do you bullish on this week, man?

• 1:29:09David Hoffman?

  Right behind me, like I said, is the Matterhorn, and I don't climb it tomorrow. We'd climb a training mountain tomorrow, but then we come back and rest. And then on Sunday, I climb it. So that is the last of my three. Yeah, it is a giant spike. I'm actually kind of bummed that that cloud is there, but it's the cloud doesn't go away.

• 1:29:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is your picture. You took this.

• 1:29:27David Hoffman?

  That's right outside of where I am right now.

• 1:29:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow. So how do you actually get there? So you're just like drive up?

• 1:29:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, no, there's no car. Actually, I'm in a city with zero cars. We have to ditch the car, park the car, take a train in. And then the Airbnb that we have is like 20 minutes away. So we took this like a little electric taxi. It was kind of cool. Really cool town. Yeah.

• 1:29:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's awesome.

• 1:29:50David Hoffman?

  That's why I'm bullish on climbing the Matterhorn and hopefully successfully.

• 1:29:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Are you gonna plant a big bankless flag up there at the top?

• 1:29:56David Hoffman?

  Oh, fuck it. Of course. I would never miss such an opportunity.

• 1:30:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Awesome.

• 1:30:01David Hoffman?

  All right, Ryan, what do you bullish on?

• 1:30:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know what? Despite this week and all of kind of the pushback and the anger about world coin, I'm not going to say I'm bullish on world coin because I'm not, but I am bullish on digital proof of personhood. I just feel like crypto sometimes underestimates how much we're going to need this. There's this like huge meta problem that's hitting us right in the face right now, which is like, we don't know who the bots are and who the people are on the internet. It's like on Twitter, I don't know, there's 500 retweets. How many of those are bots and how many of those are people? Right? And I think that what tends to happen over time is if the bots have the level of speech that humans do on the internet, we can't tell human from bot, then it starts to fracture society.

• 1:30:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like democracies run on trust. It's like democracy is kind of a, you know, a conversation between all of its citizens. And if you can get Sybil attacked by a whole bunch of bots, if your democracy can be Sybil attacked in that way, and destroy the fabric of trust, destroy the conversation, then you could destroy democracy. I feel very strongly that like, human beings should have freedom of speech on the internet, but I don't think that extends to bots. And so if we can't tell who the bots and who the humans are, we got a real problem. And the status quo, the only way we know how to do that right now, is either you have kind of like, the tech companies partner with the government

• 1:31:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  to do some sort of like, state ID, driver's license, passport, AML KYC thing. That's what we're headed. That's like, the default, right? And so, that's bad for a lot of reasons. But I guess it's something. And I guess, what I'm bullish on, though, is that we can get to a place, crypto can play a huge role, maybe the fundamental role, in creating the stateless identity. And in order for a stateless identity, proof of personhood online to work, it needs to be decentralized, it needs to be permissionless, it needs to be private, it needs to be uncentralized. Those are the things that crypto is really good at. If this type of thing doesn't come from crypto, where's it gonna come from? No one else is

• 1:32:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  building this. Silicon Valley is not building this, the tech companies aren't building this. So I feel, I've always felt like this with crypto, which is like, act one is separation of money and state, act two is separation of identity and state, right? Like, we need both of those abilities, if we're going to make it through, the potential dystopian authoritarian scenarios that, you know, the 21st century is gonna throw at us. So, I don't know how this will look, I don't know what kind of the best solutions are, whether it's kind of a, you know, social graph based solution, or something else, whether biometrics plays a role in it or not. But I would encourage us, with all of the kind of the pushback on WorldCoin, and there are a lot of good reasons for pushback to be had. Let's not

• 1:32:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  lose sight of this use case of decentralized proof of personhood. I think we're gonna need this one. And I think crypto has a big role to play. So, you know, here's a podcaster telling all the devs to go build something cool, but like, we gotta go build something cool, guys. Anyway, that's my take.

• 1:33:15David Hoffman?

  Great take, great take.

• 1:33:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  You want to get to the meme of the week? I've been waiting for this one. An old Gary Gensler meme that sort of fits in.

• 1:33:22David Hoffman?

  David, did you see? I haven't talked about this yet, yeah.

• 1:33:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so this was like UFO week. I don't know if you caught, it's like somebody in

• 1:33:27David Hoffman?

  I have just caught the tail of this.

• 1:33:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right.

• 1:33:30David Hoffman?

  I'm not attempting. There's Gary Gensler, picture of Gary Gensler, our favorite. And he goes, all of these UFOs, they're going to need to come in and register. You're going to have to come and register. We're going to need you guys coming.

• 1:33:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  There we go.

• 1:33:43David Hoffman?

  Come into my office.

• 1:33:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  We'll end it there. I have no take on UFOs at this point. As another thing, I'm just trying to.

• 1:33:49David Hoffman?

  I mean, if these UFOs can just abduct Gary Gensler, that sounds like the more likely outcome.

• 1:33:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, I'm not going to touch that one. Risk of disclaimers. Got to let you know at the end of every bankless episode, of course, none of this has been financial advice. It's not alien advice, nothing of the sort. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.