AMD, Starcloud, Coatue..10 Hot Takes From The Biggest Names in AI

Day 1 of RAISE Summit in Paris, the most high-profile AI summit in Europe. We pulled 10 of the sharpest founders, operators, and investors aside for their hottest takes on the debates defining AI right now. Open source vs closed models dominated the room, alongside agents rewriting how work gets done, the death of the keyboard and mouse, the economics of inference, and physical AI moving from data centers into cars, devices, and even orbit. Real numbers, real disagreements, and a few pieces of breaking news, straight from the people building it."The keyboard and mouse are slowly dying." - Max Cook, Coatue. "In the next 12 months, 90% of tokens will be going to open models." - Matan Grinberg, Factory."Most of AI is just glorified data science." - Pim de Witte, General Intuition"The SpaceX IPO is going to be viewed historically as the most undervalued IPO of all time." - Philip Johnston, Starcloud"People don't even understand how transformational agentic AI is." - Mark Papermaster, AMDGuest lineup:Max Cook, Sector Head, CoatueMatan Grinberg, CEO, FactoryRodrigo Liang, CEO, SambaNovaPhilip Johnston, CEO, StarcloudMark Papermaster, CTO, AMDPim de Witte, CEO, General IntuitionRamin Hasani, CEO, Liquid AIRobin Rombach, CEO, Black Forest LabsChris Madden, CEO, Good Future MediaHenri Delahaye, CEO, RAISE SummitThis episode is brought to you by Brex, MongoDB, and Assembly AI. Molly on X: https://x.com/MollySOShea𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒• Brex—The modern finance platform, combining the world’s smartest corporate card with integrated expense management, banking, bill pay, & travel. https://brex.com/sourcery • MongoDB–Millions of developers and more than 65,200+ customers across industries, including ~75% of the Fortune 100, rely on MongoDB for their most important applications. With integrated capabilities for operational data, search, real-time analytics, & AI-powered data retrieval, MongoDB helps organizations everywhere move faster, innovate more efficiently, & simplify complex architectures. https://mongodb.com/ai• AssemblyAI–Millions of developers use AssemblyAI to power their voice ai applications and features. One API gives you access to best-in-class speech-to-text, voice agent, and speech understanding models for both pre-recorded and real-time audio. Granola, ClickUp & HeyGen are scaling with AssemblyAI - get $50 of free credits today at http://AssemblyAI.com/sourcery 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒00:00 RAISE in Paris00:16 Max Cook (Coatue)01:01 Keyboard and Mouse Dying03:42 Future Interaction Models06:32 Open Source vs Closed12:20 Henri Delahaye Hosts the Night13:21 Pim de Witte (General Intuition)14:46 Mark Papermaster (AMD) on Agentic Workflows16:38 Robin Rombach (Black Forest Labs)20:31 Matan Grinberg (Factory): Droids in Europe21:03 Open Models Token Shift23:17 Philip Johnston (StarCloud): Space Bets24:01 SpaceX IPO Bull Case25:13 Chips for Space Compute26:58 Chris Madden (Good Future Media): Clipping28:23 Viral Clip Hook Secrets32:03 Ramin Hasani (Liquid AI): Physical Models34:50 Three-Axis Foundation Models38:43 Rodrigo Liang (SambaNova): $1B Raise#podcast #investing #technology #venturecapital #entrepreneur #startup #siliconvalley #ai #elonmusk #spacex

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Raise. Raise. Raise. Raise. Paris. Paris. Paris. Paris is beautiful, but it's hot as fuck.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  Paris in the middle of the summer, the middle of the heat. People are ignoring it. They're showing up.

• 0:16Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, we have a very special guest. I know I've said that before, but we really do this time. Coming off the heels of the Jamin interview at COTU, we have Max Cook of COTU. Max, welcome.

• 0:28Speaker 02

  Thank you. Excited to be here. It's pretty nice.

• 0:31Molly O'Shea?

  It is very nice in this very secret location in Europe, which we cannot talk about.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Not disclose the official location, but you've got an old cement wall, which you have many of in Europe, so.

• 0:42Molly O'Shea?

  It might.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Could be anywhere.

• 0:43Molly O'Shea?

  It could be anywhere. It could be a country that Philippe and Thomas know very well.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  True. That is true.

• 0:49Molly O'Shea?

  Cannot confirm, though.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 0:50Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, so, we have to get into this. I think you have a couple of big insights you want to share with us today.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  I hope they're insights, but yeah, I mean, I have a couple of things I've been thinking about, like.

• 1:01Molly O'Shea?

  What's your hottest take?

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Hottest take might be that the keyboard and mouse are slowly dying. I think.

• 1:10Molly O'Shea?

  Damn.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  I think COTU, you've heard Jamin speak about it, you've heard Philippe and Thomas speak about it. We talk about big tech waves. You went from mainframe to PCs to networking, the PCs to desktop internet, which is where you get a mouse and keyboard, to mobile internet, which is where the iPhone supremacy began. And with each of these big waves, we end up interacting with compute, interacting with computers in a different way. And it seems pretty clear at this point, I think, there's a good stat that like, the average person has 60 to 80 apps on their phone.

• 1:44Molly O'Shea?

  Wow.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  They use 11 apps daily on average and 30 apps in any given month. Like, it seems quite clear that we're going from a world in which you have 60 to 80 apps to an agentic AI world, where you've got a lot fewer than that, two, three, four apps, where everything else plugs in as an API or an MCP. And in that world, it would only make sense that we reinvent how we interact with compute. It's not the keyboard and the mouse. It's probably natural language. Like, if we're talking, we speak in natural language. If you're working with a coworker, you ask them what to do, you figure it out together and you go do it. So, I think there's been a number of good. Discussions about this. Mikelay from Replit was talking about how natural language is how people communicate.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  That's clearly the direction we're going in. There's a Greg Brockman quote that I always think about. I'll butcher it, but he had a tweet about we've always conformed ourselves to computers, like with data by inputting specific data with a keyboard and a mouse. And now we're finally entering the era where computers have to conform to us. And so this microphone is reminding me, it's we're already seeing it at code two, like in the famous code two bullpen that you got to see. We've got a number of investors that are whispering into their collar half the day.

• 3:02Molly O'Shea?

  Really?

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Because that's how to give models better context, better prompting, and ultimately like produces much better work output. So that's my, that's my take. The keyboard and mouse, you should throw them away and we're going to natural language interacting with agentic models.

• 3:16Molly O'Shea?

  Sounds like bullish on humans.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Bullish humans, yeah. No, I agree. Yeah, I think sure, we're building for like an autonomous agentic future, but also there's going to be a lot of that, which is just supercharging humans. Like that's what we see at code two is all of our analysts, all the investors that are whispering into their collar are producing better and more work output because they're able to more fluidly interact with these models. Like I think, I think the thinking machines interaction model demo that came out in May kind of went underloved, wasn't what, there wasn't enough hype around that.

• 3:53Molly O'Shea?

  Really? Why? Say more.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, to me, that thinking machines interaction model demo was like a bit of a peak into the future. It's, you're going to interact with compute at all times. It's got to be, have zero low latency back and forth. It can, has to be able to input images, understand what you're saying in real time, respond to you. And so I watched that and said, of course, this is like going to sit on top of every intelligence layer, every model, every app. That's how we're going to interact with compute. And I think people were excited about it at the time, but haven't necessarily put the dots together between speech to text, interaction models, and thinking about the historical context, which is that every single time we've moved from one era of tech to another, the device has changed and how we interact with that device and with compute has changed.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  So I think it's only logical that that's happening again now.

• 4:43Molly O'Shea?

  Damn. Also, it sounds like you need Assembly AI's speech models.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  Definitely. Yeah, I know. There's Assembly's working on it. There's a lot of, lot of exciting companies that are working in this space. And I think we'll see what the device ends up looking like, but I think there will be a new format, a new way to interact with AI versus how we used to input data into a structured output via graphical user interfaces, GUIs, apps, keyboards, mice. Like, to me, that we're gonna look back in five years and say, of course, we're not using keyboards and mice anymore. Like, we've, we've come up with a better way to interact with intelligence.

• 5:20Molly O'Shea?

  All right, so we'll upgrade your wires

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:23Molly O'Shea?

  to Neuralink chips.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Maybe that's it. I mean, obviously, wearables is a place people are spending a lot of time. Neuralink is a place people are spending time. I don't know what the answer is, but like, to me, it's a hell of a lot easier to see that, like, the keyboard and mouse are dying a slow death. I can't tell you. It's for smarter people than me, builders, operators, founders, to figure out what the new format looks like. But I, I think that has to be the direction we're going, where you've got OpenAI coming out with a super app for the first time, that's gonna introduce their almost a billion weekly active users to agents for the first time. It's gonna change how people interact with their phone. It changed how people want to interact with their phone, and we're gonna need something new for that.

• 6:04Molly O'Shea?

  And probably some MongoDB databases for all those apps.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, you've seen it. You've seen it in some of the public software companies already, and private too. Snowflake, Databricks, Datadog, all of these businesses that are tied to growth in AI app production, AI app development, are doing great. And Mongo is gonna be the exact same type of story.

• 6:26Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. Well, Max?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  I have one more.

• 6:29Molly O'Shea?

  You have one. Just wait, there's more. What, what is the second hot take?

• 6:34Speaker 02

  One more. Just because I've been spending a lot of time on it.

• 6:36Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  This one I don't have an answer for, so I'll just leave you with a, with a question that I don't think people have thought enough about.

• 6:44Molly O'Shea?

  Okay.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  There's a lot of discussion of open, so open source models versus closed, the frontier, OpenAI and Anthropic right now.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  A lot of the discussion I see is sort of, there's either one is a winner and one is a loser, or the other's a winner and the other's a loser. I think that's totally the wrong way to think about this. I also think like, there's been some great posts. Jesse Zhang from Decagon posted recently on X about how, I don't want to get his numbers wrong, but I think 90% of Decagon's workloads run on open source models.

• 7:14Molly O'Shea?

  Damn.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  And that is because they are at kind of production scale. They need low latency. They need to be able to fine tune a model and use a small model for that low latency. That's not a product that Anthropic or OpenAI are offering today. You can't do that with whatever their frontier model is. So they're on 90% open source, yet at the same time, enterprise LLM spend was 19% open source last year, and it's 11% this year. So it's dropped. Yet you've got businesses like Decagon telling you that 90% of their workloads are done via open source. Jesse's explanation, I think, is the correct one, which is that open source is good for

• 7:57Speaker 02

  production grade, like, production scale workflows. Yet we're so early in this AI journey that there's not that many production grade workflows. And so if you are trying to discover a new use case, you want the smartest model you can possibly get. You use the frontier. And I think the question that I don't think is being asked in this open source, closed frontier debate is clearly people want to do model routing. People clearly want to fine tune and customize smaller models. I don't think anyone's asking the question of what happens when Anthropic and OpenAI decide, we can offer that as a product. I don't know that they're going to do that, but it seems plausible that they would see this opportunity

• 8:41Speaker 02

  to take their older, cheaper, more efficient, smaller models and sell that as a product.

• 8:48Molly O'Shea?

  I wonder if OpenAI will open source.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, as of now, they won't, but model routing, I think, will be in their best interest, maybe fine tuning of some kind.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  So that's like the question I don't think is being asked enough when we consider what is the end state compute ecosystem look like? X percent open, X percent closed? I don't think people are thinking about the idea that, like a Microsoft, who's saying you can, they can help you build your own model and fine tune that, that Anthropic and OpenAI could just as feasibly offer that product at some point.

• 9:22Molly O'Shea?

  Damn. Well, we just had Matan from Factory on, and he said, within his enterprise customers, he saw in the beginning of the year, it was less than 1%. Got to 1% in January. Then, I think it was this month or something like that, I could be quoting this completely wrong, but it got to 10% open source.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you're seeing it on X, which is obviously one of the better places to see some of the people in the forefront talking about what they're doing. I don't think that's a crazy end state of the world. End state of AI compute, AI inference would be, I don't know, 10% open source? Like, the Decagon, Jesse's article made a ton of sense. If you know all of the parameters of the workflow you're trying to execute, you've thought about all the edge cases, you've used a frontier model to hone that, then it makes sense that maybe you're actually seeing better capability with an open source model that's fine tuned, or the combination of a frontier model for your hardest tasks and an open source or

• 10:21Speaker 02

  previous version of a model for your kind of production-grade workflows. Like, customer service is a great example of that. But to me, that's, we're really just so early on in terms of what will be the kind of adopted production-grade workflows that are built on top of these AI models, that the frontier is, I mean, this is, everything's growing. And so I think that this kind of zero-sum discussion of open versus sourced is missing the point.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  There are a lot of questions that I don't think people are fully thinking about yet. But it's interesting, like it's fun to be sitting in a world that we don't know what the end state looks like. But it's our job to at least try to predict what it could be.

• 11:03Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing two hot takes. And I think where we are, which is not a very large palace in the very random European country, is a good kind of, it's a good symbolism of how far AI has gone. We can now buy palaces.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  True, true. Yeah, I mean, this is just the early days of the AI.

• 11:26Molly O'Shea?

  This is just the early days. This is literally just the early days. So, okay. Speaking to that and Raze, what are you most excited about with Raze this year?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think the lineup of speakers is amazing. That cuts across like the compute layer, infrastructure layer, app layer. There's investors, there's venture investors, uh, public equities investors. And so to me, to have all these people in one place, to be able to talk about these questions that I'm asking around open source, frontier models, uh, sovereign AI, um, the power constraints, grid bottlenecks, like you, I, that's what I focus on all day, every day with my colleagues at COTU. But it's really, really damn fun to get to talk about it with founders, operators, entrepreneurs, and hear what they're thinking on these same topics. So having all these people in the same place is what I'm most excited for.

• 12:16Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. Great place to end it. Thank you so much, Max.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks, Molly.

• 12:20Molly O'Shea?

  The sun came out for Henri. Henri, thank you so much for having us here in this very secret location. And I think it's, we're in Germany. Is that correct?

• 12:28Speaker 03

  Exactly. We are in south of Germany. Thanks for being here, Molly. It's gonna be a fun night. Thanks for being here and welcome.

• 12:35Molly O'Shea?

  So tell us about Raze this year. It's huge and very fancy.

• 12:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's fun. Like the, the idea was to bring the Germans over here. So we're not in Germany, we're in, in France. We can't really disclose where we are. That's part of the, of the night and the whole deal. But, uh, no, it's kind of bringing like a very different iconic experience to a very tech event. So we are all in our tech bubble, uh, token maxing on a daily basis. But it's good to have a bit of a history in our, our side, right? So thanks for being here, Henri.

• 13:04Molly O'Shea?

  Of course. I know you're the most popular girl at the party right now, so we're gonna keep this really, really short. What is your hottest take right now?

• 13:10Speaker 03

  So my hottest, hottest take is Germany is actually extremely beautiful. And we're super extremely fortunate to be here.

• 13:17Molly O'Shea?

  Perfect. Thank you, Henri.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Thank you, Molly. Have a good night.

• 13:21Molly O'Shea?

  We're here with Pim of General Intuition. Pim, welcome to Sorcery.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me.

• 13:26Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, so for those who don't know what General Intuition is, can you give us a little brief overview?

• 13:32Speaker 04

  As humans, we can talk, choose to sort of output texts as one of the actions we can take, whereas an LLM is kind of the only thing they can do. So we train models that can predict lots of different actions where text is just a subset, which is a much more general approach in LLMs.

• 13:47Molly O'Shea?

  And what is your hottest take today?

• 13:49Speaker 04

  Most of AI is just glorified data science.

• 13:53Molly O'Shea?

  Damn. Say more.

• 13:55Speaker 04

  Good models mostly are downstream from good data and simple things.

• 14:01Molly O'Shea?

  So what are you most bullish on in that respect?

• 14:04Speaker 04

  Really good data sets, for the most part.

• 14:08Molly O'Shea?

  Where do you store that data?

• 14:09Speaker 04

  I cannot disclose that.

• 14:12Molly O'Shea?

  Well, if you need to store your data, put it in MongoDB databases.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  Okay, alright.

• 14:20Molly O'Shea?

  Any other hot takes?

• 14:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, Yann LeCun is underrated.

• 14:24Molly O'Shea?

  You think Yann LeCun is underrated? Why?

• 14:27Speaker 04

  The friends just told me to say that.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  I pulled into a room and they were like, "You have to say this." And I'm saying, "No more comments."

• 14:35Molly O'Shea?

  No more comments? He's gotta walk away now.

• 14:39Molly O'Shea?

  Damn. Okay, see ya, Pim.

• 14:44Molly O'Shea?

  Oh my god. Hi. Okay, we're here with Mark, CTO of AMD. Mark, welcome to Sorcery.

• 14:51Speaker 05

  Thank you, Molly. Glad to be here.

• 14:52Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. We're in a very secret location in a European loca-- I just, we can't, you don't know where we are, but it's very secret. Okay, so I have to ask you. We're at the RACE Summit. AI is booming. What is your hottest take right now?

• 15:07Speaker 05

  Hottest take is people don't even understand how transformational agentic AI is. It's just transforming how work gets done. And, you know, just entire end-to-end workflows are being reimagined. And I think it's starting to come out when you hear some of the stories this week at RACE.

• 15:23Molly O'Shea?

  And what is your biggest lesson that you learned in the last maybe two or three years of this boom at AMD?

• 15:29Speaker 05

  Well AMD, we got ahead of it. We've worked to getting our CPUs and GPUs ready for this. And now with these agentic workflows, you actually need both. In fact, the ratio of CPU to GPU is becoming like one to one. But none of us anticipated how fast these agentic workflows would just take off. The last six months have just been amazing. And it's just a harbinger of what's yet to come. We're just at the early stages.

• 15:54Molly O'Shea?

  How many agents are you using today?

• 15:56Speaker 05

  I, every day, I start with agents. They run my day, look at what's coming up. But what's really cool is how we do our chip design. We have thousands of subagents just doing incredibly complex chip design, speeding how fast we can get the next generation to market.

• 16:13Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. Okay, as the drums roll, what are you most excited about with Raze this year?

• 16:21Speaker 05

  Raze, well, it starts with the President of France and it ends with Jan Le Cun. I think we're gonna, we got it bounded pretty well here. No, it's great, it's really great speakers. I think we're gonna really hear some insights across every facet of the AI ecosystem.

• 16:34Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Mark. Really appreciate it.

• 16:37Speaker 05

  Thank you, Molly.

• 16:38Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, we're here with Robin of Black Forest Labs, again, at a secret location in Europe. Robin, welcome to Sorcery.

• 16:45Speaker 06

  Thank you, hi. Nice to meet you.

• 16:47Molly O'Shea?

  Nice to see you. I saw you a couple of months ago.

• 16:50Speaker 06

  Really? Where?

• 16:52Molly O'Shea?

  In London, at the Legends Gala.

• 16:54Speaker 06

  Oh, that's right, yeah.

• 16:56Molly O'Shea?

  Tough night. Anyways, okay. So, for people who don't know, what is Black Forest Labs?

• 17:04Speaker 06

  We are building multimodal visual models for content creation and for now, physical AI.

• 17:13Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. And so, we were talking about a couple of hot takes earlier, but I'm really curious, what is your take on open versus closed? Open source versus closed?

• 17:27Speaker 06

  I mean, you can approach this from like so many different angles, but I think like the most important one is um that open innovation is good for the world. And I think fear mongering around AI models is only going to lead to them being more closed and that's ultimately going to slow uh leading to slow down all AI progress. And I think ultimately it's super important that uh AI is actually an accessible technology. It's also gonna make it more um safe in the end. I think that's like something that is a pretty fundamental principle. If you don't think about like business models that you build around open source, closed source and all of that, then you can like start to be like more like elaborate. But I think fundamentally, open innovation is good for the world. Is it open weights? Is it open source?

• 18:11Speaker 06

  It doesn't really matter in the end, but I think having accessible AI models is key.

• 18:16Molly O'Shea?

  So you're based in Black Forest, Germany. We're here in Europe. And there's a nice convergence of European tech and American and Silicon Valley, everything that's converging over here. What should people know that aren't from Europe about what's actually going on in European tech right now?

• 18:40Speaker 06

  Um, I think it's getting better. It's there's not enough going on yet, I would say. Um, even though, I don't know, there's like a fancy event like this. Like it looks really nice, right? But I think like what really matters in the end is that Europe is not known for having like, I don't know, nice castles and stuff like that, but actually nice AI or nice technology. And I think that's something that, yes, it's changing. And I think like events like that where a lot of people come here, I think that's a good start. But ultimately, there needs to be like

• 19:09Speaker 06

  a fundamental mindset to really push AI innovation from here as well.

• 19:13Molly O'Shea?

  I know you're super excited about the RAI Summit, so what makes you so excited?

• 19:20Speaker 06

  I'm not gonna answer this question.

• 19:21Molly O'Shea?

  Seeing all your friends, maybe?

• 19:23Speaker 06

  No, it's great, yeah. I mean, there's like so many good people here. I think it's fantastic.

• 19:27Molly O'Shea?

  Perfect place to end it. Thank you so much, Robin. Great to see you.

• 19:32Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 19:32Molly O'Shea?

  This episode is brought to you by Brex, my favorite. You become what you spend on, and I refuse to spend my time on work that shouldn't exist. Expense reports, receipt chasing, and manual closes. The company's building what's next from Vercel, OpenAI, Anthropic, Granola, and Deepgram. All made the same call. They all run on Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that combines cards, expenses, and banking into a single stack with agentic finance built in. AI agents that handle expenses automatically, enforce policy before spend happens, and close your books in minutes.

• 20:12Molly O'Shea?

  That's why Sorcery runs on Brex, so I can spend time on building and not busy work. It's time to get Brex AF. Learn more at brex.com/sorcery. That's B-R-E-X dot com slash S-O-U-R-C-E-R-Y. Bye. We have a very special guest here today. We have Matan of Factory. Matan, how are the droids doing?

• 20:36Speaker 05

  The droids are doing well. The factory is growing. Very excited on things that have been happening.

• 20:42Molly O'Shea?

  Are the droids in Europe with us right now?

• 20:44Speaker 05

  The droids are in Europe. They've recently made the jump across the pond. A lot of the largest banks and enterprises in Europe are now automating their software engineering with droids and with Factory. We're very excited about it.

• 20:58Molly O'Shea?

  So we have a very difficult question for you today. What is your hottest take?

• 21:05Speaker 05

  My hottest take is that in the next 12 months, 90% of tokens will be going to open models. Now, not all the tokens, and maybe not the most important tokens, but I think, you know... Big Token has been spewing some propaganda against Chinese models, which is, you know, how they're labeling the open models. And I think, in fact, these open models are incredibly performant, incredibly cheap, incredibly fast. And there is going to be an important use for them in kind of the portfolio of models. I think still the frontier closed models will have a place, but I think that place will be shrinking, at least in token share. Maybe not in cost, but in token share.

• 21:44Molly O'Shea?

  Are you measuring the switches on your side?

• 21:47Speaker 05

  Yes. And at the beginning of the year, we saw enterprises were using less than 1% open models, like less than 1% of their tokens were going to open models. Then in around March, it kind of crossed that 1% threshold. And then in May, it crossed the 10% threshold. So it's growing pretty quickly because of the kind of cost optimization. And also, like, you know, not every task you need OPUS 4.8 or like GPT 5.6 ultra high. And many tasks day to day you do are very simple. And you know, at factory, we will actually dynamically route you to whichever kind of open or cheaper model is better for that task.

• 22:23Molly O'Shea?

  What's your prediction for percentage of open usage by the end of the year?

• 22:29Speaker 05

  By the end of the year, I think we'll probably get to, at least in the enterprise, we'll probably cross the 50% threshold by the end of this calendar year.

• 22:36Molly O'Shea?

  Oh, my God. Breaking news. This is crazy. Okay, as we finish up, anything else you want to share?

• 22:44Molly O'Shea?

  What are you most excited about for Raze?

• 22:47Speaker 05

  I'm most excited, honestly, about AI making its way into Europe. They've been, you know, they haven't been as urgent about it, but I think this is kind of a sign that like AI is making its way across the pond. People really care about it. There are a lot of businesses that can benefit dramatically from some of the kind of aggressive, sometimes too aggressive moves that people have been making in the United States. Excited to see more of that urgency in Europe. And there are a lot of great companies that it's fun to work with here.

• 23:15Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. Thank you so much, Matan.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me.

• 23:17Molly O'Shea?

  We have Philip Johnston of Star Cloud, one of the hottest companies in space right now. Philip, how's it going? It's going great. Thanks very much for having me on the podcast. How does it feel to be in SpaceX's S1?

• 23:32Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. I mean, to be honest, I was not expecting that. And the article

• 23:36Speaker 06

  They quoted me and to be honest, I I'm very surprised they picked that one to quote me, but yeah, it's a.

• 23:41Molly O'Shea?

  What did they quote?

• 23:42Speaker 06

  So I had to write as part of getting as part of doing the World Economic Forum like Davos thing, you have to like write an article and I basically very rapidly threw together an article on data centers in space. I guess because it was where they like picked that one, but yeah, I'm surprised they picked that one.

• 23:58Molly O'Shea?

  It must have been really good.

• 24:01Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, so we have to ask you, we're here on Earth, but what is your hottest take right now?

• 24:06Speaker 06

  My hottest take right now is that the SpaceX IPO is the gonna be viewed historically as the most undervalued IPO of all time. Um, I think they will tear through 10 trillion within, you know, certainly within the next couple of years. And then have almost unlimited TAM for what they're building. Uh, so in historical terms, it will be viewed incredibly undervalued.

• 24:28Molly O'Shea?

  This is not investment advice, but why are you so bullish?

• 24:33Speaker 06

  I'm not like regulated by anybody, so I ain't gonna tell people just buy the SpaceX stock like it is a great stock to buy. Um, no, but it's it's mainly because so space, not just because of orbital data centers, which we're doing, which lots of other people are doing, they own what will be by far the most cost effective launch vehicle. And then that opens up every industry in space that will be possible beyond that. So that's all of asteroid mining, lunar resource mining, all of um, all of the comms businesses that are going to be built. Everything else is gonna have to go through SpaceX. Yeah, it's like owning the railroads. Lots of businesses will be built on top of it, like our business will be built on top of it. But the railroads are a great business to own for sure. Yeah.

• 25:14Molly O'Shea?

  So there are a handful of chip companies here this week. We're speaking with Cerebras, Samenova, we just spoke with the CTO of AMD. Do you have a favorite chip?

• 25:25Speaker 06

  We welcome all chips. We're actually gonna be flying, uh, we're speaking with Samenova. We hope to fly the Samenova chip. Uh, with Cerebras, an incredible inference chip, we hope to fly their chip. Uh, within Nvidia, the like Grokka texture actually is. You know, can be potentially well suited for space as well. Uh, we flew an ARM chip uh on our first spacecraft. We threw three ARM GPUs on our first spacecraft. Maybe he knows about that, but we did. Um, so yeah, there we are. Chip agnostic.

• 25:51Molly O'Shea?

  And so how's the, the factory going? How's, is it, are you guys out growing it already? What's going on?

• 25:58Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, so we are about to move into a much, much larger facility. Um, we're building a kind of campus to set up a huge manufacturing line for what we're calling Star Cloud 3, which is like the vehicle which will fit on Starship. So we can potentially fit up to 10 megawatts of compute capacity per Starship launch. Um, and so, yeah, that's in August, we're going to move in and you will be the first to do a tour of it.

• 26:20Molly O'Shea?

  Heard it here first. We're gonna do a tour.

• 26:24Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, so as we close out, what are you most excited for, for this week?

• 26:28Speaker 06

  Uh, I mean, they just have some incredible speakers and incredible other attendees. So, yeah, I'm excited. I've never met the CEO of Sambanova. The AMD CTO would be great to meet. Uh, so yeah, excited to meet some people.

• 26:39Molly O'Shea?

  We just recorded an interview with Rodrigo of Sambanova this morning. Fantastic. Really recommend that interview if you haven't listened. If it, maybe it's out yet. I don't know if it will be. Um, but he is fantastic, fantastic at explaining everything. Yeah. Okay, Philip, thank you so much.

• 26:57Speaker 06

  Thank you so much.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  Oh my God, you guys have to see what's happening at this undisclosed location.

• 27:02Molly O'Shea?

  All right, we're here with Chris of Good Future Media. Chris, welcome to Sorcery.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  Merci beaucoup, Molly. Very nice to see you here at the.

• 27:12Molly O'Shea?

  We're gonna bleep that one out because we don't know where we are right now and we're in a secret location, but. Salut.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  Salut. Well, this is a nice return because I used to live in France for four years. So AI, France, together, I had to come to this event.

• 27:26Molly O'Shea?

  Really? What were you doing?

• 27:28Speaker 04

  I was an English teacher before, actually. And so for 10 years I was teaching in the classroom. And then around the pandemic, I started listening to podcasts, the All In Podcast to be specific. And I was learning so much and I knew that I had to teach the internet about what I was learning on All In Podcast. And I started clipping up the All In Pod and that's kind of how I shifted into this new business of clipping. And so now I have a huge agency. We get out thousands of clips a month and yeah, it's, it's amazing what clipping has done to the social media environment and it really is the game nowadays.

• 28:02Molly O'Shea?

  Clipping is the new ad.

• 28:04Speaker 04

  Clipping is a new ad. It's a way to get yourself out there. Whatever the long form is, whatever message you have, whatever idea or thing you're trying to sell, you need to get it into a short amount of time to be able to grab somebody's attention and get them to maybe check out your longer form content or what it is you're trying to sell or pitch.

• 28:22Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, I have to ask you, for my own benefit, what is the secret to clipping?

• 28:27Speaker 04

  It's really the first three seconds. The three seconds need to be, grab the viewer in. If the spoken line isn't catching you, you need to have a visual hook on the screen that will tell the viewer what is the payoff for them. What's the value that the viewer is going to get from watching this clip? If you don't have that in the first line of the speaker or a hook on the screen, think, restart, think of something else because it's not going to go viral, it's not going to do well.

• 28:54Molly O'Shea?

  What is the most well-performing clip you've ever made?

• 28:59Speaker 04

  We have Chamath talking about his newest startup going, I think we got four million views for him. David Friedberg as well, warning about the famine in Ukraine at the start of the Ukraine war. That one went wild on TikTok, five million views. And really, the all-investees have been an inspiration for us, for getting lots of good content out there. Worked with Harry Stebbings at 20VC for two years, and now we're working with venture capitalists and CEOs and investors across the Silicon Valley landscape.

• 29:35Molly O'Shea?

  What is the price, what is the standard price of clipping today?

• 29:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:40Molly O'Shea?

  I think I get fleeced quite often.

• 29:44Speaker 04

  It is more expensive than you'd think when you're used to AI clips. Like, there's a lot of AI companies out there that will like take your podcast, look at the transcript, like pop out five of the best clips and put captions on there and call it a day. But you really need the human thought, the human psychology going into the clip and adding other visuals to keep people on their toes while watching. And that takes human time and skilled human time. So, you know, 200 bucks a clip is pretty standard in our agency, you know, minimum. And then you want to go clips daily, so a clip a day at least. If you can do two or three a day, that's even better. So that kind of starts to get you some of the pricing for the... A better company like ours.

• 30:28Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, if we were gonna make this clip go viral, what should the hook be?

• 30:33Speaker 04

  Oh my God, you guys have to see what's happening at this undisclosed location. You won't believe who's here. There's undisclosed names. And Molly O'Shea, Shannon. And I messed up.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  And I messed up the host name. Oh my God. And I can't wait until you see what's next. Something like that.

• 30:54Molly O'Shea?

  All right, we'll lead with that.

• 30:57Molly O'Shea?

  Chris, thank you so much.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  Thank you. Thank you. It was very nice to meet you in person. I'm a big fan of your show.

• 31:01Molly O'Shea?

  Thank you. I appreciate it. And I appreciate any clips that you guys just happen to make.

• 31:07Speaker 04

  Hey, I think we've made some of your clips, actually. The Techno Optimist Prime is our Instagram account. And it's a niche channel where you just clip up our favorite people talking about tech and AI. And you're on there, too.

• 31:18Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing. Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Chris.

• 31:21Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 31:22Molly O'Shea?

  If you're building what's next in AI, you need to know MongoDB. The database platform developers love and built for the agents you're running. MongoDB stores, searches, and reasons over your data in real time. With vector search and embeddings from Voyage AI, all in the same system. No separate pipelines, no stitching together 10 different tools. It's why 75% of the Fortune 100 and leading AI-native startups run on MongoDB. Build and scale from your first user to billions of vectors. Go to mongodb.com slash AI to learn more. That's mongodb.com slash AI to learn more. Bye. We are here with Ramin of Liquid AI. Ramin, welcome to Sorcery.

• 32:07Molly O'Shea?

  Thanks for having me. So we're in a very secret location that has no AC, but we can't say anything more than that. What are you so excited about, or why are you so excited about Raze this year? And tell us about Liquid AI. Definitely. So I feel like this year, they

• 32:24Speaker 06

  Have exponentially kind of uh improve the quality of like their guests, you know, that's what I can say. And then the structure is much more mature, like uh as I've seen it like before, like there's like multiple conferences happening at the same time. There's Makena, you know, and then there's Ray's and uh everything is related to the to the to the stuff that we do. We are in, we are bringing foundation models to the physical world, you know, so physical AI is extremely important for us. And that space is becoming more and more um interesting. We're building foundation models that are so cheap that you can bring them on Raspberry Pis, for example. So you can host them on any kind of device that is on the planet.

• 33:04Molly O'Shea?

  So you're saying it's really hard to token max with liquid AI?

• 33:07Speaker 06

  Correct, yes. I mean, tokens are basically like we're bringing the cost of tokens like to zero, you know, and um we are just bringing the value of the AI for enterprises, basically. So like imagine if if there's not tokens that are actually important, it's just the, let's say, the outcome that actually matters. And this has been like now, I think the discussions in enterprise AI, which is like one of the odd takes, I guess, you know?

• 33:30Molly O'Shea?

  Carp has something to say about that. I don't know if you saw him.

• 33:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, I saw him. That was incredible, you know?

• 33:35Molly O'Shea?

  Any notes?

• 33:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, that I I fully agree with him, you know, like eighty-five percent of everything that is happening right now in AI goes into research and development of code, right? And then we don't know what this code is going to do, you know, and I like that he said the jig is up, you know, because enterprises like now in fact, actually in Europe, they are actually waking up right now, you know, and they're getting into the place where um they um they really see they have to take their time, you know, similar to how they have been treating like any other technology to really understand the value of a tech and then deploy basically those solutions like into into their products, you know? For example, one of the things that we did, we we have, we are powering like in-car intelligence for Mercedes Benz, you know?

• 34:18Speaker 06

  So foundation models get getting inside the car and making your car basically smarter, you know, like this is what we do. And then as this is done by a traditional OEM, you can imagine like Mercedes Benz, like one of the flagship kind of brands in Europe. But um but at the same time, they opened up to a technology that can actually truly unlock value, you know? And I feel like we have to in enterprise AI, we have to start thinking as foundation model companies. We have to start thinking about that value chain a lot more, which I think he was on the right, right path, yeah.

• 34:50Molly O'Shea?

  So, we have to ask you, what is your hottest take right now?

• 34:55Speaker 06

  Well, all foundation model companies from 2019, when, let's say, pre-training started like panning out, you know, like we saw that we have to kind of, you know, scale these AI systems. They started working on one axis, you know? The axis was maximizing intelligence at all cost, you know? Now, we are at a place where we see that, look, efficiency is not an afterthought. Energy is not abundant, you know, chips are, you know, like there's not that many chips like available in the world right now. You know, like you have to invest and also like supply chains are getting disrupted on the memory side of things. Government can have control over your, your assets, you know, like and whatever you're building and safe rollout of artificial intelligence at the largest scale.

• 35:40Speaker 06

  If you have maximize the intelligence at all cost, that axis alone is not going to get you to the place that you want to go. At the same time, open source is also becoming like more and more kind of popular, you know, as you're seeing in enterprise AI, especially like as these governance issues are coming in. So, I always wanted to propose like this three-axis problem, you know, instead of one-axis problem. Imagine you're maximizing intelligence, but at the same time, while you're designing a foundation model, care about its cost. So, at the same time, like you're not just gonna push transformers out. You're going to like really work on, uh, let's say like finding out what is the best, uh, what is the best computational graph of intelligence

• 36:23Speaker 06

  that runs on a certain kind of processor that you want to run it. And then so efficiency and cost of intelligence as a, you know, like a first class, first class system, you know, and not afterthought, you know? Because usually now, AI companies right now are thinking about doubling down on efficiency of their models, distilling their models down, you know? But this is not something that is, you know, like we took it. So, we, we actually took that axis of efficiency very, very seriously. That's axis number two. The first one was capability as intelligence. The third axis, I would say substrate. Where does this intelligence system go, you know? So, if you, if you think about AI, AI is majorly like getting hosted in data centers. But you could also bring intelligence. On phones, on laptops, on airplanes, on cars, you know, like you can actually host AI at

• 37:07Speaker 06

  any different substrate, right? And this is something that I think if you co-evolve with beat the capabilities of the models, you can have like true enterprise AI capabilities.

• 37:17Molly O'Shea?

  Damn. It's a hot take.

• 37:20Speaker 06

  And it's also very hot here.

• 37:21Molly O'Shea?

  It is very hot here.

• 37:25Molly O'Shea?

  Europe or wherever we might be really needs to invest in AC and probably cloud seeding. I think Rainmaker might be able to help with these droughts and the heat wave. Okay, any, any last thoughts? By the way, this segment of Raise is sponsored by MongoDB, Brex and Assembly AI. So if you need a database, money, help, or text to speech and speech models, that's what you get. Anyways, okay, Ramin, to close out, any last thoughts? What are you most excited about?

• 38:01Speaker 06

  I'm actually excited tomorrow I will be on a panel with Ian Stoika, who is like a legend of the field, a co-founder of Databricks and co-founder of like Arena. Like we are going to actually kick off the conference tomorrow, you know, at 9:00 AM. And excited to tell the world about open source and you know, the impact of like, let's say like these three axes that I actually talked about into absolutely realizing kind of the value for enterprises, you know, like not just thinking about like foundation models as like the, the, the, you know, token machines that are generating money and revenue for the foundation model companies that are useless tokens, right? And getting them into the place where they can actually unlock value for enterprises.

• 38:39Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing, trees are good. Thanks, Ramin.

• 38:42Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 38:43Molly O'Shea?

  Rodrigo, welcome to Sorcery.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 38:46Molly O'Shea?

  We are in Paris. We have a long interview coming out soon, but before that, you have some really big news today. So what happened?

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Now, we're super excited. We're announcing the first close, our Series F is a $1 billion raise at $11 billion valuation.

• 39:04Molly O'Shea?

  And who led this round? Who, who are some of the investors in this one?

• 39:07Speaker 00

  The round was led by General Atlantic. Really excited to have this incredible investor on board and significant investment from Sullivan Ventures, from T-Roll Price and Capital Group.

• 39:17Molly O'Shea?

  What are you going to do with this money?

• 39:20Speaker 00

  You know, we're seeing incredible interest in our in our product. And so we're using this capital to accelerate our supply chain and making sure we can deliver the racks to all of these all these customers worldwide.

• 39:32Molly O'Shea?

  So you have a chip with us in the room today. Can you please show us the chip?

• 39:36Speaker 00

  Now, this is a this is the exciting new product that we're shipping later this year, SM50. You know, it is a cloud scale RDU that allows us to actually deliver premium inference at a significantly higher performance than you can get with GPUs at a fraction of the cost, a fraction of the power.

• 39:54Molly O'Shea?

  For people who don't know what premium inference is, can you explain that a bit?

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the world of inference is running into an economics problem. And so what we're able to do with premium inference is drive the performance of the largest models up so you can actually deliver high quality models, these trillion parameter models at their full precision at incredible speeds. And when you're running faster with a high accuracy model, you can charge more at a lower cost, allowing your service providers to generate more margins for their services.

• 40:25Molly O'Shea?

  Right, so last question before we go, and then you have to check out the full interview afterwards. But what is your hottest take?

• 40:33Speaker 00

  Well, you know, the world's moving into inference, and so we're excited to be here. We're excited to actually have a new chip to share with the world. And and I think you're going to see Samba Nova be part of a number of these services

• 40:46Speaker 00

  before the end of the year.

• 40:47Molly O'Shea?

  Amazing, bullish on Samba Nova. Wait, by the way, how did you guys come up with that name?

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I grew up in Brazil.

• 40:54Molly O'Shea?

  Okay.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I grew up in Brazil and and Samba Nova is a new dance. It's a new dance, it's a new trip, and so check it out.