How RHONY's Carole Radziwill Discovered She Had $700k Hidden in Investments

Haley is joined by Real Housewife of New York (RHONY) and her Real Life bestie Carole Radziwill to discuss being related to the Kennedy's, what Love Story got wrong (and the surprising thing it got right), discovering her husband's secret investment that compounded to $700k, and the curse of the watch she inherited from Jackie Kennedy Onassis. Thanks to today’s sponsor, Ogee: A higher standard for beauty. Go to ogee.com/FINANCIALTEA and use code FINANCIALTEA to get 20% off certified organic makeup that performs like luxury. Or visit Sephora.com, search Ogee, and shop the Crystal Contour Collection today. Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Haley Sacks?

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• 1:27Haley Sacks?

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• 2:06Speaker 01

  Anthony, my very fiscally responsible husband, was John Kennedy's first cousin and they were very, very close. And so I was very close to him and also his wife Carolyn. I wrote What Remains about my life and growing up broke and humble and about the death of my husband and them, they died the same month. So in 1999, my husband put in $50,000. It just sat in that account for 30 years.

• 2:38Haley Sacks?

  $640,000.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was something crazy. It was some crazy amount. Yeah, I did inherit Jackie's Cartier watch. I ended up selling at auction.

• 2:50Haley Sacks?

  Because it was cursed.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Well, the curse was like, three women were in possession of the watch and all three were widowed in their 30s.

• 2:58Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 3:00Haley Sacks?

  This is Financial Tea. Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is a podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture, which is why today we have none other than my bestie, the famed Real Housewives of New York City, one of my favorite writers, woman about town, queen of everywhere, Carol Radziwill. Welcome to the studio. Took long enough, girl. You would think I have a direct line to you.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Yes, you do.

• 3:33Haley Sacks?

  But it didn't work. I had to drag you in here.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't think about money that much or care about it too much. And I'm not terribly good with it. So I don't think I have anything, trust and believe. I have nothing to enlighten your, your viewers about, about money.

• 3:55Haley Sacks?

  Well, we don't want to learn from you personally.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  I would have learned from you. You never teach me shit about.

• 4:00Haley Sacks?

  I teach you what are the V O O?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  The V O O. I was the one that found out about the VOO. And then I told you the VOO story. And then you're like, oh, yeah, you should invest in this, whatever it's called, stock market index fund.

• 4:14Haley Sacks?

  Tell them what happened with the VOO.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Okay, I will tell, because I'm a certain age and I've worked, you know, my whole life. You know, you pay into social security and all these things that you completely forget about by the time you're like, ready to take it. I'm not ready to take my social security yet. So I haven't been thinking about it. But it turns out, after my, my husband Anthony passed away in 1999, and he also was paying into social security for all those years he worked. And as the executor of the will and trustee and I guess widow, I was, I, I get his social security. When, when he would turn 60 or something, but I

• 5:01Speaker 01

  didn't know about it. It's like, who knows about it?

• 5:03Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  So I'm just like, living my life. And then someone like, offhandedly said, oh, well, you know, what about your late husband's social security? I'm like, what do you mean? What about it? And they go, well, you're entitled to it. I was like, what? I am? T T T. Call, you know, went to the website. I'm like, what is this that put it in his social security? Boom, comes up. So I'm in it because of my husband. And they start sending me these letters that like, you might be owed money from this, you might be owed money from this, based on my husband's social security number.

• 5:38Haley Sacks?

  So they're like, finally, we have a point person for this account. We've got a lot to share.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  And they're kind of like form letters. So I'm like ignoring them. And, and, and it turns out that, I didn't know this, but Anthony was a member of like, the Producers Guild of America. Like, I'm like, oh, okay. What, what is that? And so I called them, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, you, we were looking for you. We sent you a letter back in 2009. They said, well, since it's been so long and I never took any of the monthly pay, the monthly stipend or whatever, it was like, $8,000. But then there was an additional like death benefit. It came to like, multi thousands of dollars, like maybe five zeros, you know?

• 6:28Haley Sacks?

  Wow. Okay, over 10.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was over 10. They said that you can take this in a lump sum, or you can take it in monthly installments of like, whatever that would be.

• 6:38Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  But they suggested I take it in a lump sum because it was so much money at that point. Usually people like, just they, they get it right away. So it's just, so I said, okay, I'll take the lump sum. And they, they sent me the check. I was like, this is like winning the lottery. And, and, and then I still get $38 a month from like, direct deposit into my, my little checking account from the Producers Guild of America. So that was one thing. So then they were sending me the, this, like, I, I worked for Disney ABC News, right? For 15 years. My husband worked there for like eight.

• 7:12Haley Sacks?

  They did workplace romance, FYI.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. That's when you were allowed to date at your workplace.

• 7:17Haley Sacks?

  I know. People, there weren't all these narcs around. You could be sexy in the workplace and flirt with your boss.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Honestly, we were in the office all the time.

• 7:25Haley Sacks?

  You know, doing hand jobs.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  That's where you, that's where everyone met their partner.

• 7:32Haley Sacks?

  I know what kind of a review you were giving.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  The only thing is like, they did, even back then, they, they, they looked down on like, you know, superiors dating, you know, interns, whatever.

• 7:44Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  That's the, but it happened, but it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't like.

• 7:49Haley Sacks?

  Did you come on to him or he came on to you? Because it is sort of weird if it's like your superior and they're being like pervy towards you.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, he, Anthony and I were at the same level.

• 7:57Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Well, I think he, he might have been an associate producer. I was a production assistant.

• 8:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  And then we met and no, neither of us, we just met on the Menendez Brothers story.

• 8:08Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, of course.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  In LA and, and went to dinner a couple of times and then left and went back to New York. Actually, I went to Louisiana for like, three months to do a documentary on abortion. And we didn't see each other that much. And then we, kind of when we got back, we saw each other like in the cafeteria or like places around the, the building.

• 8:28Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  And it was like a slow and steady burn. And then we hid it for like a year because we were like, so like, you know, we both work.

• 8:36Haley Sacks?

  It's sort of sexy to hide it though.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we thought we were hiding. I think probably the boss, the bosses kind of knew, but you know, yeah. But anyway, so he worked, he worked there, I worked there. And, and, and that's when Disney was giving pensions. I don't know if companies give pensions now. Is this a thing?

• 8:54Haley Sacks?

  It's not as much.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, Disney.

• 8:56Haley Sacks?

  And no one is at companies as long. So it's like.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting. Okay.

• 9:01Haley Sacks?

  A lot of those benefits come from being loyal.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Okay. So I was very loyal to Disney ABC. I was there like 14 plus years. So I knew I got some sort of pension. But not very much, but you know, this also kind of lottery money for, and, and then Anthony got a pension. And there was something from the social security department that said he had like some kind of, what I interpreted to be a 401k. So.

• 9:32Haley Sacks?

  What I interpreted to be a 401k.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  I didn't know what it was.

• 9:40Haley Sacks?

  I didn't know exactly what it was.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  They said retirement. I don't know. They said retirement.

• 9:46Haley Sacks?

  I think it was a 401k, love.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Well, it turned out to be something slightly different.

• 9:51Haley Sacks?

  It was money that was invested in compounding.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  No, but it, he had a 401k and then Disney had this other retirement account option that you could pay into. Of course, I didn't pay into shit. I was like, I need my money. I like spend my money. I don't like retirement. Like, I'm like, 27 years old, 30 years old. I'm like, I'm not thinking about like, when I'm 60, who cares? So, and my husband was a little bit more financially.

• 10:19Haley Sacks?

  And now you're so happy that he did it. So you can tell all of us to do it. It's like, it's fun when you're older.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Right. So he invested secretly, secretly, I guess. Or maybe he told me, but I forgot. And, and he, he, it turned out, thank you, social security department, that in, in, it took me about six or eight months, even up to a year to like, get around to like, calling them. I was like, finally, look, is there a retirement account? Is there a 401k? They're like, well, you rolled over his 401k back in 2000. I was like, okay, that's what I thought. They're like, but what about his retirement account? I was like, what retirement account? They were like, well, you're the benefit listed as the beneficiary. I said, isn't that the 401k? They're like, no, that's a separate account. So I'm like, well, what is that? And my husband, being much more financially astute and conservative than, than me.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Put in about, it was, it was like a lot of $50,000 into, maybe it was some Disney stock, but a bulk of it was in this, what this index fund, which I didn't know anything about. And because I didn't know the account existed.

• 11:28Haley Sacks?

  You didn't touch it.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  And I didn't know how to access it and nobody, uh, nobody along the way, when I was doing the estate and probate, found it either, that it just sat in that account.

• 11:43Haley Sacks?

  Compounded.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Thirty years. And that is how I learned about compounding interest.

• 11:49Haley Sacks?

  Yes. Cause how much was it by the time you took it out?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  It was in the high, uh,

• 11:54Haley Sacks?

  Could that be over a?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Six figures.

• 11:55Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  It, no, it wasn't.

• 11:57Haley Sacks?

  It was like 700 something.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  It, it was combined with Disney stock, which of course I sold right away.

• 12:04Haley Sacks?

  Cause I could.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Cause I could, but the, the fund, because it was a retirement account, it's a little complicated, but, but, but I was the beneficiary. So I could roll it into another retirement account or 401k. And, and I did, I was like, I, the guy, when he was telling me, he, I thought he said like 6,470. I was like, just send me a check. He's like, ma'am, I can't send you a check for this amount. I'm like $6,000.

• 12:31Haley Sacks?

  Six hundred and forty thousand dollars?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Crazy. It was some crazy amount. And yeah. So.

• 12:37Haley Sacks?

  Cause you also had that.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  But my husband knows if I had known about the account.

• 12:42Haley Sacks?

  Would have taken it out.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  I would have taken, probably taken it out. Like if it doubled, because I'd be like, it doubled.

• 12:48Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  That's a lot of 100k. Like obvious that's crazy. I should take it and like spend it on something great on my house. I mean, it was literally like, I mean, remember when I told, I was like.

• 13:01Haley Sacks?

  It was so, I was peeing my pants.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  The lottery.

• 13:04Haley Sacks?

  It literally was the lottery. But also maybe there should be a new retirement account where people, yeah, I want to care about that.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Well, because, you know, he, it's just like.

• 13:15Haley Sacks?

  He took care of you.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  He took care of me.

• 13:17Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. It felt almost like an angel or something because it was a moment too, where you needed a little something.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  And he knew me so well. He's like, I'm not going to tell her about this because she didn't know about compound interest. And he obviously did.

• 13:31Haley Sacks?

  He took care of you.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  And he just took care of me. And it was just so, it was so touching. It was so touching. And I, you know, you just feel like it's, it was so unusual, the way it all happened.

• 13:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And the timing.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  And the timing and everything. And so that's why, like you were saying, you know, uh, you know, my, my life before, um, going back to Rhony, it was like, it was pretty perfect. I mean, I was just doing the things I love to do, um, traveling, writing, um, I had no.

• 14:05Haley Sacks?

  Dining club that we do on Sundays.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  We had our.

• 14:07Haley Sacks?

  Shay Maxwell.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  We had our private dining.

• 14:09Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Where we make our friend Max cook us dinner.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  And I, I don't know. It was like, it, it was never in my, in my thought process.

• 14:19Haley Sacks?

  So how did you end up going back?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  You know, and I will say Andy eventually asked, asked if I would consider it. But, but even before that, I, we're talking about manifesting and, and my, and my late husband and, and that story. But I feel like, because it was not on my, you know, it was not on my radar at all. Not, I had to promote a documentary I worked on about, um, George magazine and John Kennedy, right? I was, you know, I, I think it was an important story to tell. I wanted to get out there because George was such a big part of his identity when he, when he passed away.

• 14:55Haley Sacks?

  For context, I mean, obviously I feel like most people know this, but if you're new to Carol, explain your connection to.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Well, Anthony, my very fiscally responsible husband was John Kennedy's first cousin and they were very, very close. And so I was very close to him and also his wife, Carolyn. And then, you know, I wrote what remains about my life and growing up broke and humble and, uh, and working at ABC and all that stuff. And about the, the death of my husband and them, they died the same month. So in 1999. Um, so it's been many, many years. And there are some times where I want to, you know, I, I think I want to talk about legacy over privacy, you know, and that was one of the times I thought, you know, this was John's, you know, child, you know, he, he, he really, he loved these ideas. It was a

• 15:47Speaker 01

  great idea for a magazine. And, and so anyway, so I wanted to promote this documentary that I had worked on. And so I went on Watch What Happens Live. And, you know.

• 15:57Haley Sacks?

  Oh, and that, I remember when you went on that girl and it popped off.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was so nervous. I'm like, no one's going to remember me. Like who cares? I haven't been in this world for eight years. And Andy was like, don't worry, don't worry. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. Cause he's like the ultimate optimist.

• 16:13Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  And I'm not like that. And sure enough, it sort of exploded. And I feel like they manifested this more than anything else because I think there was so, so much goodwill in the fandom for the years that I had spent on Rhony and, and the subsequent years where I wasn't that much in touch, but, but there was a lot of nostalgia. Um, there was, there was just a lot of goodwill. And I think, I would say, you know, going to BravoCon and seeing that and feeling that, and not only me, but the Bravo executives or whoever follows

• 16:54Speaker 01

  this, saw it too, and felt it. Like there was a constant drumbeat, you know? We want you back. Why are you coming back? Come back, come back, come back, come back. And I, I remember being at BravoCon and I did 50 press interviews and they all said, why are you coming back? And, and I was like, said, no, I said, absolutely not. I think like give the new girls, you know, a chance. And, uh, it's only been two seasons. I'm not in that world anymore, but it's great. And I love to be here with all the fans and.

• 17:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Cause sometimes like when there's a new cast, the old housewives can disparage them, but you didn't do that. You didn't shoot yourself in the foot in that way.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  No, no, because I remember coming on in, in the season five and, and, and Bravo kind of, you know, switched the cast up. There were three new, new people, me, Heather and Aviva, and, and then the three or four, the, the, uh, older, uh, cast. And the audience did not like us. And it took two seasons. And then, um, and it, and then it just sort of started all switched. Yeah.

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• 18:36Speaker 03

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• 19:06Haley Sacks?

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• 20:14Haley Sacks?

  You've been involved in reality TV for such a long time. Do you think that that has changed from a cultural perspective? Like, do you think that you've you're seen differently now than you might have been 10 years ago? Like, is it more respected now?

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, when I first joined, there was no Instagram, right?

• 20:32Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  So I'm not aware of the whole social media aspect of it. I feel like social media is like an own separate little TV show now.

• 20:39Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, everyone self-produces it.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Right, you're on Rony and that's a TV show. And then you're on the social media. You're on YouTube and Instagram and TikTok.

• 20:49Haley Sacks?

  But it's also interesting, too, because that creates all of these ancillary dividends. Like, you know, Rhony, you obviously get paid to be on the show. But then what it really does is platform someone and then they can leverage that to make more money. And so you see that with, you know, Housewives creating businesses or you have your stuff.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I didn't do that. I think women do it for a lot of different. It's funny because I saw something recently and Kyle Richards was asked, like, do you, you know, do you think that being on the show is detrimental to marriages, relationships and all that? Because it appears to be.

• 21:25Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, there's like, oh, the housewife's curse and you're gonna, everything's gonna blow up.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but but she said something and I really have to agree. Like, women do this for a lot of different reasons. But I think maybe one of the reasons is that there's just maybe something not perfect about the life that they're living. And this is an opportunity to do something so out of the box, so completely different.

• 21:50Haley Sacks?

  But wait, let's be real, though. You're not the first woman in your family to be part of this certain New York scene. Because your mother-in-law, Lee Radziwill, was Jackie Kennedy Onassis's sister. She was a socialite. She was one of Truman Capote's swans.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  I always say they were the original reality show.

• 22:09Haley Sacks?

  Really? Were they so funny together? Or like, what were they up to?

• 22:12Speaker 01

  No, no, but I'm saying with their ordinary life was really documented by.

• 22:16Haley Sacks?

  Oh, I thought you meant like they were so sassy and like.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  They were, I mean.

• 22:21Haley Sacks?

  What was their vibe?

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Obviously, I knew more. They were, their life, their ordinary life, I mean, it wasn't, it was an extraordinary life. But but the ordinary things they did every day, I felt, is so documented.

• 22:33Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I'd be like, they're going to the park with their granddaughter. And there'd be a million pictures.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I feel like that was the original, like, family that the public was, you know, obsessed with.

• 22:45Haley Sacks?

  The Kennedys for sure.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think those two specifically.

• 22:49Haley Sacks?

  What was it like to be part of that world and that family in New York in the 90s?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  You know, the 90s, gosh, everyone, you know, it was, it was, it was all the things that I think, you know, every woman who's getting married, integrating in their husband's family and thinking about family, thinking about, you know, and on top of that, Anthony was diagnosed with cancer. So navigating all of that. But, you know, so there was.

• 23:20Haley Sacks?

  Were you intimidated, though, to enter that? Because it's like you're, you meet this guy, you meet him at work, you meet him in the context of work. I'm sure there was like rumors about him, oh, like, do you know who his mom is or whatever?

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:32Haley Sacks?

  But, you know, you were.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  He had the, like, the original tagline. It was always like, oh, Anthony Radziwill, the son of Jackie Kennedy's sister, Lee. Like, it was all, it was like his tagline. Like, everyone who said it, you know, in the, when I first met him.

• 23:50Haley Sacks?

  So cast a big shadow on him, for sure.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  I think so, but he handled it with such grace and class, you know? He just showed up and he was.

• 23:57Haley Sacks?

  Did he confront it to you, like, in your early dating? Was he like, hey, babe, like, we're gonna meet my mom, just so you know, she is Jackie-o's sister?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:05Haley Sacks?

  Or did he assume that you knew?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Um, no, I'll tell you, I'll tell you. We, like, I said, we kind of were dating, like, secretly, because we were like the couple at ABC News.

• 24:16Haley Sacks?

  You're the at couple.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Right, and we didn't, we didn't want, like, everyone to know and all this. But what also, what also, and I think it's unfortunate, I was social media, you really can't do this. But like, it's those beginning moments, the beginning time of any new relationship, what it needs really is privacy, right? To get to know each other. And like, you're not, you're not, people are in your ear and stuff. So, so, so just because of our circumstances, Anthony and I were more private. And, and because of that also, I didn't want to meet his fam. Like, I didn't, I remember being with Anthony, we were having dinner and then he was like,

• 24:58Speaker 01

  it was John's birthday and he was having some birthday party and.

• 25:04Haley Sacks?

  Was he always saying, like, oh, my cousin John, like, I love John?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  He wasn't, he wasn't, like, we didn't really talk about it much, but he's like, do you want to come? And I remember thinking, I don't want to, I'm not ready for that. Like, I just, I just wanted to be Anthony and I. And I, we were dating like almost a year before I met his mom and his stepdad at the time, Herbert Ross. So by that time, I was very confident in my relationship. Like, Anthony and I were like really bonded. I knew it was going to be probably end in.

• 25:35Haley Sacks?

  Marriage.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Marriage, or at that time, I thought, like, just living together and.

• 25:39Haley Sacks?

  I love that about you, too, that like, even though it was like the 90s and it was a different time for women, like, you've always been so independent and feminist and, you know, about your independence.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that got that from my mom.

• 25:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you weren't like, oh, I want to have a white dress and have the kids. You were like, yeah, I met this great guy, maybe we'll live together.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Well, we ended up living together for like two years before we got engaged. And, and that was mostly like a real estate decision. Because, you know, in New York, like, I had an apartment, he had an apartment. And we were both paying, he was paying more rent than, than I was. And I was spending a lot more time at his apartment. And it's like, when my lease is up, like, should I renew my lease? It's like, I'm spending so much time. And he was like, don't renew your lease, live with me.

• 26:27Haley Sacks?

  It was a money thing.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:28Haley Sacks?

  See, you are physically responsible, girl.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of couples get together that way. It's like, my lease is up, well, come move in with me. And I was like, all right. I had the kind of nicer apartment, it was a good girl.

• 26:38Haley Sacks?

  But it was far away. His was, yours was in, like, Harlem and his was in, like, the Upper East Side, yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:45Haley Sacks?

  But, so, but obviously, like, they were so big in the culture, him and Carolyn. So you, like, what was it like to meet them versus, like, what was that first meet cute like with them?

• 26:57Speaker 01

  You know, not only was I sort of confident in my relationship with Anthony, but at that point, I'd been at ABC News for some period of time and I had traveled and I had been places. And I, you know, I worked with Peter Jennings documentary unit at that time. So like, I felt like I was probably naive, the naivete of youth, but I was like, I'm on the level.

• 27:18Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. You're like, Mia and Carolyn Passat, two girls just on the go in New York.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she kind of grew up similar to how I grew up. And, you know, she met John and had a relationship. I met Anthony, had a relationship. She was making it, you know, a name for herself in fashion. I was making a name for myself in, in, in news. But I, you know, I remember like telling, like, you know, a story at lunch that I was going to Cambodia. And like, you know, it was a big deal. That was a really big deal. And, but of course, you know, Lee had already been to Cambodia.

• 27:52Haley Sacks?

  Lee's like Cambodia, Shmambodia.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's like, she was there in the 60s. You're like, what?

• 27:58Haley Sacks?

  You're like, no, that's my cool story.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  But she was great, she was great. And, you know, she knew it was an important relationship to, to her son, so.

• 28:06Haley Sacks?

  So she wasn't like annoying mother-in-law, like?

• 28:07Speaker 01

  No, she never really was meddlesome, you know? Because, again, she had her own full life that she loved. And, you know, we saw a lot of her, you know, especially in the summer, every weekend. And we'd be over at her place a lot. But she, she didn't meddle in our, our relationship. And especially, you know, after we got married. And of course, Anthony, you know, was diagnosed then, so I took charge. And she, she stepped back a little, which I appreciated, you know?

• 28:40Haley Sacks?

  And as someone who, I mean, there's obviously been such a resurgence and interest here.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  I think so, that's why, mostly because of love story.

• 28:46Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, so, you know, I know you didn't watch it, but.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  No, I did not.

• 28:50Haley Sacks?

  Do, do you think, from what you've heard, was there anything that they got right? What do you think they got the most wrong? Besides, they made your husband fat, which I know is upsetting to you.

• 29:02Haley Sacks?

  Besides that, they did you dirty, girl. He was sexy guy. He went to the gym every day. Let it be known. We're putting it on the record now. Anthony had a hot body.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  He was very fit. He did go to the gym every single morning.

• 29:15Haley Sacks?

  Carol was asleep?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  No, I slept. He was up at six going to the gym.

• 29:19Haley Sacks?

  She's like, oh, by the way, Carol, tell them what time you had to get to work in the 90s.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  What time?

• 29:25Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  At ABC 10?

• 29:27Haley Sacks?

  Was that like? Carol, what'd you do before work? She was like, wake up? This was not like, like the like hustle culture of you go to SoulCycle with your clothes before work.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  No, life was slower and chicer. And like, you just don't like, you know, get up and put.

• 29:45Haley Sacks?

  What do you think got the most wrong in Love Story?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Um, I, well, I didn't watch, I didn't obviously watch the, any of the episodes, but, but it was such a cultural phenomenon, which I was not expecting. And so I saw a lot of it on, on social media. Like at certain points, I just couldn't even pick up my phone. Like it was, it was like, it was like an assault. Like every, every.

• 30:10Haley Sacks?

  It was horrible. Like all the guys wearing the little stupid hats.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I wasn't aware of all of that, but you have to remember, I also, that was this like, the same week that I started filming Real Housewives. So I will say like, like if the universe is conspiring with me and the fans were manifesting that, and I have angels looking out for me, like that moment in my life. You know, up into that, that moment in the BravoCon of it all, you know, my life was peace, baby.

• 30:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, we're chilling.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and just enjoying friends and travel and everything. Um, but when I started filming that, you know, the whole city was talking about Love Story. So.

• 30:54Haley Sacks?

  We were walking down North Moore.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I didn't remember that. You, I almost got into a fight.

• 30:59Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Cause there were, we were people outside of his old apartment and they were taking pictures and Carol was.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was like two girls taking like selfies.

• 31:08Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And you were like, what are you doing? Yeah. I was like, Carol, we gotta go. Carol was about to like.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  I was just throw down.

• 31:15Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. You were gonna do our black talk. I was like, we gotta leave.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  I know. You know, that was towards the end. I just, it was, it was so much. It was so much. And you'll see, you'll see, uh, you'll see some of it on Rhony. Because I couldn't, I couldn't get away from it. And of course, you know, the other cast were genuinely, uh, interested i- in it and watching it and asking questions and stuff. So, you know, it was, um.

• 31:43Haley Sacks?

  What do you think got wrong though?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Oh, what? I think that they did enough research to get like little details of things, like what, there was a fight in the park.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  And, and, uh, you know, one thing they got wrong is my husband didn't die of testicular cancer, which really bothered me. He died of sarcoma. I wrote extensively about it. Um, so that was a weird detail that they could have easily had thought with, but you know, testicular cancer was a little more like provocative or I, I don't know why they would make, you know, there, there's language around that disease that is more provocative than talking about sarcoma, which not a lot of people know about.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  But that some, so some of the details they got right. And then they just made up the, obviously they made up the, the dialogue and, and the, and, and everything else around that detail. Obviously none of them ever met any of us and, and nor did they try to reach out, you know, to, to, and not, not, I'm not saying that if they had reached out to me or anyone, you know, Narciso, who was very close to, and, and John's friends, who I still know, or, you know, I don't think any of us would have participated in giving them context. But like, I, I'll never forget this one detail about Kentucky, Carolyn. There was a scene where she was eating a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken and people were DMing me about that. Like,

• 33:17Speaker 01

  you know, did Carolyn eat Kentucky Fried Chicken? What is Kentucky Fried? And I was like, and it was so weird for me because we did. And I was like, how, like, nobody would know about the Kentucky Fried Chicken buckets, right? Uh, except for Carolyn, me, Anthony and John, we, she used to bring it, we used to bring it to, uh, the hospital that we, we would, we would get sandwiches from William Poll, which is a very exclusive, like deli on the Upper East Side. And, or Anthony and John, I guess they ate a little healthy, but we just loved, you know, we went to Wendy's a lot. Like it was just a time where we just needed like comfort food. And, and, and I just couldn't understand where, how they would know about that. So I was like, I went,

• 34:01Speaker 01

  this was a good use of AI. I, I typed into, I guess chat or Google, I don't know. Um, anywhere in Carol Razzle's book, What Remains mentions Kentucky Fried Chicken. Cause I, I didn't remember, right? I didn't like, I didn't write about it. And sure enough, I wrote a schedule, uh, when Anthony first started his chemotherapy and we're in the hospital lot, there was, I was such a reporter, such a producer. I wrote a schedule saying 9:00 AM, this visitor, this visitor and like lunch, you know.

• 34:30Haley Sacks?

  KFC.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. No. And then dinner, 8:00 PM, Carolyn, John Hamilton, who's a very close family friend, John, and it said, KFC. Like.

• 34:45Haley Sacks?

  But how does it feel to have your, like, obviously so much money was made on Love Story and off of their stories, but you're not profiting from it?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  No, and I'm okay with that. Like I don't, I don't, you know, my, my book did go back on the best.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think of it.

• 35:06Haley Sacks?

  You're just like, that's in the culture.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, yeah, it's too big of a, of a thing to like be demanding or upset about those. People are gonna, people have always made, made money off of, off of public stories.

• 35:24Haley Sacks?

  Totally.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  People even criticized me when I wrote my memoir, that I was, you know, uh, making money off of, yes, off of my own story about my life, my husband and my friends. And, um,

• 35:40Speaker 01

  but What Remains went back on the best, New York Times bestseller list.

• 35:44Haley Sacks?

  I know. I saw it. It was so cool.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  We can do like the finger touch.

• 35:47Haley Sacks?

  A finger touch. Oh, like in the wicked. I love it.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  You know, and that also is bittersweet. And you'll see that in, in my reaction to all of that in Rhony as well. Cause we were filming, I was filming a scene when my, when my publisher called to tell me. So I was like.

• 36:06Haley Sacks?

  Wow. That's crazy.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you'll see what happens with all of that.

• 36:11Haley Sacks?

  I feel like you are an amazing example of life, uh, after a spouse's death. You own being a widow in this amazing way and have cultivated such a full life for yourself and like that you really, and have defined yourself outside of it so much. And I just wonder if there's.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Really? Sometimes I feel like, I'm like.

• 36:34Haley Sacks?

  I feel like you.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Widow, like because of the book, because of the attention, because of the recent attention, I just feel like I'm, I'm like, I'm still consider, I'm still considered, you know, widow. I mean, technically I am because I never remarried, but like.

• 36:48Haley Sacks?

  Oh, you mean like it's like a, something that you, it's like a, yeah. But I feel like it.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Like even on the boxes, like single, married, divorced, widowed is a box. Like you check. So I'm like always checking widowed.

• 37:01Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So like, it's like, yeah, it's weird.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  I know. I mean.

• 37:05Haley Sacks?

  But I wonder for people who are, do you have anything specific to offer other widows, even though it's obviously not a box that everyone wants to check, you know? I mean, maybe information about finances after the death of a spouse. Like you obviously you found the view, you found the view.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I was widowed so young. So just for all you young widows out there, you can collect your husband's social security at, at, and when he turned 60 or, or when I turned 60, I'm not sure which one it was.

• 37:35Haley Sacks?

  Got life insurance?

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like I don't have life insurance, but also I don't have children. So like if I die with like a dollar in my bank, as you know, I won't because I'm good at spending it. That I'll consider that a failure. I don't, I think when, when you're alive as child free, you don't, you, I'm not thinking of legacy in the same way. So I'm not, I'm not trying to build generational wealth.

• 38:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Yeah.

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• 39:19Speaker 04

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• 39:26Haley Sacks?

  I was thinking also a lot in terms of about assets after someone dies because I have this Cartier watch and I know that you inherited a watch. And so tell us a little bit about that too. Because this is

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Is that a new watch?

• 39:42Haley Sacks?

  No, this is I've had this for like, maybe I got this when I got my book deal.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Now you have generational.

• 39:47Haley Sacks?

  I know this I bought myself, girl.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  You did. Yeah, this is not that. But like, yeah, I did inherit Jackie's Cartier watch, which through a series of very strange events, I ended up selling at auction.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  And

• 40:05Haley Sacks?

  Because it was cursed.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Well, I, I came, I created, you know, based on the facts of what happened to the three women who were in possession of that watch, that, that there was something about that watch that linked, you know, all of us, Jackie Kennedy in the 60s, me in the 90s, and then my best friend in the 2010s. And yeah, I just thought there was, there was some, some curse, some, something like cursed about the watch. So I

• 40:37Haley Sacks?

  What was the curse?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Well, the curse was like, three women were in possession of the watch and all three were widowed in their 30s.

• 40:44Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  So, so I, I had this idea that, which I think I got from an Indiana Jones movie, like when you return something that's cursed, it's place of origin, that it breaks the curse. Listen, as a reporter, and as you know, I'm a very logical, rational person, but it was just like, I do also believe in the universe and coincidence is not always coincidence. And so I decided to auction the watch at Christie's with the hope and intention of Cartier bidding on it, which they did, and buying it back. And like,

• 41:19Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  That didn't exactly happen. And then it was at the very last second of the auction, Kim Kardashian bought it. Yeah. So

• 41:29Haley Sacks?

  And then she returned it too.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I don't, I don't know her. I've met her a few times and we have a bunch of mutual friends. So if I didn't believe in the curse, when I found out that she was the one who purchased it, I definitely believed.

• 41:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Not only did I believe it, but I thought, oh my God, I underestimated the power of it. Because my intention was to like, I don't care if Cartier doesn't get it, someone else will buy it. And someone I don't know, who I don't care about is some like, what, you know, some collector in Hong Kong. But that she had it. And we had all these mutual friends. I just thought it boomeranged back at me.

• 42:06Haley Sacks?

  So crazy.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  So she, she had heard, she had heard rumblings of this curse through mutual friends. And, and so in fact, she did want to return it. She ended up paying for it. And she called Christie's and said, I'm not going to take possession of the watch and that they should sell it privately. So that did happen.

• 42:32Haley Sacks?

  So it got returned.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  It got returned.

• 42:34Haley Sacks?

  It got Indiana Jones.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I, after I had had some conversations with our mutual friends, and I heard that she was very nervous and wanted to perhaps return it. I, I, you know, I said, listen, I, she should do what she thinks is right. And I totally understand. And then I never heard about it again. And like, two years went by and someone sent me a clip from her reality show and she was like, wearing the watch, or she was talking about the Kennedy watch. And I was like,

• 43:03Haley Sacks?

  It's a fake watch.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So then I called Christie's, like, where's the watch? What's going on? And they told me that it was still in the vault under Rockefeller Center, which is where Christie's is. And I said, you need to call Cartier. And he did. And they, she eventually

• 43:19Haley Sacks?

  They were turned down.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It was a crazy story.

• 43:23Haley Sacks?

  That's such a good story. Okay, we're going to wrap up, but I want to just ask you a little bit about your apartment, because I feel like you're someone who really you benefit so much from assets. Like, you've had this apartment for such a long time.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:35Haley Sacks?

  And it's like,

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Well, my first apartment that we bought, Anthony and I bought when we first got married,

• 43:42Speaker 01

  appreciated, you know, it was the 90s. New York was much more financially livable and affordable. And we bought our apartment on 82nd and Park for $450,000, which at the time

• 43:54Haley Sacks?

  Seemed like a fortune.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Was kind of a small fortune.

• 43:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  And, and it was a classic six, two bedrooms and what they

• 44:00Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  They call, they used to call maid's room, which I'm sure they don't anymore.

• 44:04Haley Sacks?

  I grew up in a classic six and that maid's room, honey, that was my sister's room.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're, they're just like a smaller bedroom. I turned ours into an office. And then after he passed away in 99, I sold it. I did all the things that widows, you know, are supposed to do. I left ABC, I sold our apartment. I was like, I was not the perfect widow in those years after.

• 44:24Haley Sacks?

  What do they say that you should do?

• 44:26Speaker 01

  They say that you should not do those, that don't make any big life changing decisions for the first year or two, you know, just sort of settle down. I media, I left ABC, it was too hard to go there.

• 44:37Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  And, and then I sold our apartment, but I sold, I sold it for 1.2 something.

• 44:43Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  I mean, that was more money. Like, I was like, damn. And it was only like, six years of

• 44:49Haley Sacks?

  That's crazy. Yeah. More than doubled.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  And more than doubled in a short period of time. And then I took that money and bought my current apartment, which also appreciated, doubled, probably more than doubled now.

• 45:04Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  But it's also been 20, you know, 22, 24 years.

• 45:11Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So you bought it no mortgage?

• 45:14Speaker 01

  No, what do you mean?

• 45:16Haley Sacks?

  Like, you took the 1.2 and bought it outright? Or you bought it

• 45:20Speaker 01

  No, I, I did what everyone does.

• 45:22Haley Sacks?

  You have a mortgage?

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:23Haley Sacks?

  So what percent are we, because I know it's like a low, you have like a low percent.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Oh, well, my interest

• 45:29Haley Sacks?

  I'm trying to create envy, Carol, for your living situation in New York, you have a beautiful apartment that we all know has no handle on the staircase. It's a, you know, but it's stunning.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  I invest, I reinvest a lot. A lot of how I spend my money now is reinvesting in my home. You know, I'm not

• 45:49Haley Sacks?

  Fireplaces.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I feel like

• 45:52Haley Sacks?

  Sometimes she'll wake up and call me and say, well, I have to have a French home. And then the next six months are spent refurbishing to be more French.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  I've done, I've redone my apartment pretty much top, top to bottom every like, five to seven years. But it, but like you said, it's, it's, it's not spending money, it's investing money. I also bought my car on eBay for $4,900. So it's not like I'm spending, you know, I could get an expensive car. But that I bought, I have a mortgage, like every, everyone else. And but my, my interest is like 2.4.

• 46:26Haley Sacks?

  It's crazy.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  But I did this interest only, I think, for a bit of time. Was that wrong?

• 46:33Haley Sacks?

  No, I think it's, if you have a 2.4% mortgage, keep the mortgage.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Keep the mortgage.

• 46:37Haley Sacks?

  Because the stock market returns 8 to 10%. So you're borrowing money at a lower rate than you could make investing it, which means that you can make a profit.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  See, I know.

• 46:48Haley Sacks?

  So you're a genius.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  I'm like intuitive financial genius.

• 46:52Haley Sacks?

  But when you're on The Housewives now, it's like, everyone, it is sort of a like dick measuring contest, a little bit of like, who has what? You know what I mean? Like, people, the girls show up with their little Kelly's and their glam is perfect. And they have probably got, the rich ones getting stylish, da, da, da. But you're so confident in yourself. Like, I feel like you always look so good, but you don't play that game. And it's like, a good financial lesson to all of us, because it's about finding your own personal style versus trying to keep up with the Joneses, which then will make you broke.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think that there is, there is another perceived housewife curse. And that is, there are some women that go on the show and, and they live beyond their means.

• 47:36Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, they spend money to look rich.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Right. And, and that is really, that is something that will, will bite you.

• 47:45Haley Sacks?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  That nonsense.

• 47:48Haley Sacks?

  You don't do any peacocking?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 47:50Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Which is so cool. I'm like,

• 47:53Speaker 01

  This is very 90s coded, I think.

• 47:54Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Like, I, I think we, we, women didn't do it as, I mean, like, I think when I, growing up in the 90s and being like, a young adult in the city, like, we, you know, I guess I certainly could have had like fancier, like designer things and, and bags. But you wouldn't, like, if you're young, like, that was for, like, older women, like socialites. Like, you wouldn't be like, carrying a Kelly.

• 48:22Haley Sacks?

  Did Lee have crazy bags?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  No, no, even Lee didn't either.

• 48:25Haley Sacks?

  And like, good jewelry? Like, where did she, did her wealth, like, show at all what she wore?

• 48:29Speaker 01

  In her homes. She had beautiful homes. Maybe that's where I got it from.

• 48:34Haley Sacks?

  It is. And remember, and, and that is very swan-like, which is what all those women were called.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  She invested in travel and, and her homes. And that's, oh God, that's kind of what I do.

• 48:45Haley Sacks?

  There you go.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I just, just, I just realized that.

• 48:49Haley Sacks?

  Okay, therapy. Are you learning about yourself and your spending habits on financial teeth?

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 48:54Haley Sacks?

  Okay, girl.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  That's kind of, yeah. Anyway, yeah. So that, there you go. So I don't, I don't, whatever, peacock. I don't, I don't do that. And the style on Housewives is

• 49:06Haley Sacks?

  Pretty trashy. You make it a lot better.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  I feel like I, you know, style, and this is from my mother-in-law, style is, to me, is, is the way you live your life. You, people live their lives with style, and that cuts across all aspects of your life, fashion, home, travel, cultural, style. Like, wearing a good outfit is just, is just fashion. But it's not necessarily style. Like, and there are some women on the show

• 49:34Haley Sacks?

  It's so true, because outfits can wear you.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Specific style.

• 49:36Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Which is, like, I don't think is stylish, but it's their style. So

• 49:41Haley Sacks?

  So we celebrate them.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:43Haley Sacks?

  Go, girl. Okay, now, Carol, you're, I'm gonna have to make you say something that you're not gonna like, because you don't want anyone to do this. You think that a lot of, that we should be socialists and money should go back to the communities, but

• 49:55Speaker 01

  First of all, yeah, well, I'm saying like, a choice between fascism and socialism, democratic socialism, and what we're facing now with, with this fascist system that we're sort of, and it's not even capitalism anymore. I call it corporatism. I read about it. It's corporations are in charge now. There's no more, there's no more free market. They're consolidating power. They're consolidating wealth in a few handful of companies.

• 50:22Haley Sacks?

  And the politicians are profiting. But what I was gonna make you say at the end of the show, again, of course, was, I just wanted you to say with me on the count of three, stay rich. But I didn't know if that was against your religion. But I'm glad that we went through all of that together.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm not saying, I'm just saying, listen, there are ethical, there are ethical billionaires, but there are not many. Okay?

• 50:44Haley Sacks?

  Okay, but hold my hand, wear your Laleen, look at the camera.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Okay, which camera?

• 50:49Haley Sacks?

  And say, but look at the middle one. And we're just gonna say,

• 50:51Speaker 01

  God, you had three cameras?

• 50:52Haley Sacks?

  We got three.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Is that financially prudent?

• 50:55Haley Sacks?

  It is, because this is an investment. I can't use up, I can't use them outside of it.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Okay, what are we saying?

• 51:00Haley Sacks?

  We're saying, stay rich.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Okay, one, two, three.

• 51:03Haley Sacks?

  Stay rich.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  The wheel had roads. Electricity had the grid. Innovation needs infrastructure. Plaid makes AI work in finance. Visit plaid.com/ai to learn more.