Charlie Mackesy – ‘Grief propelled me into work that saved me’

In this episode, I sit down with bestselling author‑illustrator Charlie Mackesy, whose work – The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse – has become a global touchstone for kindness, vulnerability and hope. Yet Charlie’s path was anything but straightforward: he grew up feeling inherently at fault, shaped by the pressures of competitive schooling and the emotional weight of carrying the painful stories readers now share with him. He talks about failing his driving test four times and the devastating loss of his best friend, Jamie, in a car crash – a grief that propelled him to London and sparked the first moment he began drawing compulsively, with music as solace. Charlie reflects on not achieving what he calls “conventional success” through marriage or children, the underrated importance of friendship and the power of kindness and self‑compassion. We also explore his years of not earning a living as an artist – a period he now sees not as failure, but as an essential process. Charlie urges us to create without fear, to let go of perfection and to live fully in the imperfect present. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 03:44 Feeling at Fault 04:30 Outsider and School Years 05:55 Carrying Others Stories 13:57 Animals and Ducklings 17:08 Driving Test Failure 18:06 Loss and Aftermath 20:05 Grief Fuels Art 23:14 Bottling Emotions 25:07 Remember Mothers Word 28:28 Mum’s Tactile Reading 29:44 Dementia and Story Comfort 33:21 Redefining Success 37:46 Friendship Essentials 40:37 Kindness and Self Talk 46:09 Failing as an Artist 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: “When people tell you their weight, their sadness, anything, their failings, whatever it is they tell you, treat it like they’re giving you gold.” “I just wrote a book about a mole who likes cake and friends who are journeying in a difficult way with each other… but I think people just want to be heard and seen.” “None of us get out of here alive, so why not try? What have you got to lose?” 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Charlie’s latest book, Always Remember: The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, the Horse and the Storm, is available from all major UK booksellers. Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Jacqueline Wilson - this episode explores how Jacqueline Wilson’s life and career never followed a predictable path. She didn’t become a bestseller until her 40s and the setbacks she faced helped shape the writer she became. It reflects on the imagination and resilience behind unforgettable characters like Tracy Beaker, her ability to reinvent herself, most recently with The Primrose Railway Children and the creativity and determination that have sustained a career spanning more than 100 books. Ultimately, it’s about a woman interrogating creativity, perseverance and the determination required to keep going: swap.fm/l/PawxjS1dFBaohoKZXfpL 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Elizabeth and Charlie answer listener questions in our subscriber series: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You know, I had a brilliant therapist once, who was actually an ex Franciscan monk. And he said, when people tell you their, their weight, their sadness, anything, their failings, whatever it is they tell you, treat it like someone's, they're giving you gold. And my best friend at the time, um, so there's this one in my heart was Jamie, who, who was killed in his car, I think, six months late. And he just looked at me and he had tears pouring down his face. And I looked at him and then I had tears pouring down my face. And I held his hand and then gave him a hug. And we never spoke.

• 0:43Elizabeth Day?

  This episode of How To Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Welcome to How To Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes failure is simply what makes us human. Before we get into this episode, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single conversation.

• 1:07Elizabeth Day?

  Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me. Ernesta makes designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home.

• 1:47Elizabeth Day?

  I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing and Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernestacom and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernestacom. If you haven't met my guest today in person, the chances are you are familiar with his work on the page. Perhaps you saw one of his illustrations during the pandemic on phone screensavers and hospital walls and Instagram grids. Perhaps you remember his familiar handwriting

• 2:29Elizabeth Day?

  shaping the question, what's the bravest thing you've ever said? And the answer, help. Or perhaps you've read his books with their tales of a curious boy, a cake-obsessed mole, an anxious fox, and a sage old horse, and you've been forever changed by their accessible wisdom. Their author is Charlie Macacy, whose outdoorsy childhood in Hexham, Northumberland, later informed his love of nature and wildlife. He briefly attended university twice, but left on both occasions within a week. He started out as an illustrator and a cartoonist

• 3:08Elizabeth Day?

  for The Spectator and Oxford University Press. But in 2019, shortly before turning 60, Macacy's life changed overnight when a book he had written and illustrated, The Boy, The Mole, The Fox, and The Horse, spent 152 weeks in the Sunday Times Bestseller list. It was translated into over 40 languages, sold more than 10 million copies, and was turned into an Oscar-winning animated film in 2022. Three years later, Macacy published the sequel, Always Remember, which became the UK's Christmas number one. While his work has helped thousands of readers, many of whom come up to him at book signings and

• 3:50Elizabeth Day?

  tell Macacy he saved their lives, it hasn't necessarily helped him feel better about his own perceived flaws. "That's been my feeling most of my life," he says. "Somewhere, deep within me, most of the time, the feeling is, yeah, I'm in trouble somewhere. It's my fault. I did it." Charlie Macacy.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  Did I say that?

• 4:13Elizabeth Day?

  You did say that.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  It's true, yeah.

• 4:15Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 4:17Elizabeth Day?

  Are you feeling it now?

• 4:20Speaker 00

  I'm mainly feeling quite sweaty because isn't it the hottest day in a hundred years?

• 4:24Elizabeth Day?

  It's the hottest day of the year. And because we're in a studio and the audio quality is important, we can't put on the aircon. So this is like a Bikram podcasting session. Apologies.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  Does the temperature affect the sound? There's a thing.

• 4:39Elizabeth Day?

  No, the sound of the aircon, the whir of the fan, the whir of the fan. The temperature affects the quality of the interview I'm going to get.

• 4:48Elizabeth Day?

  When can you first remember feeling like that, that you must be at fault in some way?

• 4:53Speaker 00

  I'm not sure. It's a bit like when you are a bit uncomfortable with something and you realise at some point that it's a song that you don't like is playing. So it happens where you go, oh, that, yeah. So when, I don't know, but I think it's this kind of, it's an undercurrent, isn't it?

• 5:12Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  Someone, somewhere is really annoying.

• 5:17Elizabeth Day?

  It's interesting because I have the same thing.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  Do you?

• 5:21Elizabeth Day?

  Definitely.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Have you always had?

• 5:25Elizabeth Day?

  So this is actually a really different question to answer, isn't it?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. There you go. But when?

• 5:29Elizabeth Day?

  I think I've always been quite aware of it.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  Have you?

• 5:33Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. I, the answer I tend to reach for is that aged for, my family and I moved to the north of Ireland.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:42Elizabeth Day?

  And as you can hear, I speak with a very English accent. And so I, even though it was my home, I didn't feel necessarily that I belonged. And so I think there was an observational quality to a lot of my experience. And I think being an observer is closely linked to feeling like an outsider. So that sense of not fitting in and having, of being slightly wrong, probably dates from that point.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, like the sound of you is wrong.

• 6:08Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, exactly.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:12Elizabeth Day?

  Because you got sent to boarding school. I wonder if it started there.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, probably. I think the way the system was set up was very much you're in competition with each other, which is a strange way of going about things. Like there's a corridor of of of constant test results for various subjects and you could always seeing where you were on the list. And of course, I was always eighth equal or 12th or bottom. And so you're constantly being reminded that you're not what you could be. And then, but yeah, then I went to a brilliant Geordie school in Hexham and then again with a posh voice. And that that wasn't easy, but they were so gorgeous. But in the end, I had no reason to feel anything but but loved.

• 6:59Elizabeth Day?

  We were talking before we started recording about the fact that you've just come back from a trip to a book festival. You often do these events because your work is so important to people. And although I think you'll shrivel at my saying this, you are a beloved and popular author.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  I'm shriveling slightly.

• 7:21Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, we can't tell. It's all internal shrivel. And you have come back from this event and many, many people in the audience shared their experiences with you, their trauma with you, their survival with you. And I wanted to ask you how you feel about carrying those stories.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Hmm, carrying them. So really good question. I thought you were going to say, how do you feel about hearing them, which is a privilege. Carrying them is different. I think normally what happens is I listen to those things and often get really moved, cry with a good number of people. And then afterwards.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  It feels like a train is slowly hitting me. And then I go and go back to where I'm staying and sit on the bed and look out the window and try to look at something, anything that is, takes my mind off. Cause I can't, it's too much sometimes. And then I think I try to, there was a moment in lockdown, I always remember it, when I was in that, in those days, those days. I, I had, you know, a lot of people messaging me all the time and I, listen, I, I'm no sage. I just wrote a book about a mole who likes cake and, you know, friends who are journeying in a difficult way with each other and feeling uncomfortable about things, but I don't really have, you know.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Well, I think people just want to be heard probably and seen and so they were saying, ah, I'm a nurse in a ward and my two friends have died and,

• 9:02Speaker 00

  you know, help. And, and I remember pushing my bike through a field one morning with Barney, the ducks.

• 9:10Elizabeth Day?

  Your dog.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, in the basket and just suddenly stopping and feeling, it was almost like someone turning on taps in my head and I just, it was just, and I was just, just weeping and weeping and weeping, standing there for, and then lay down. And I was thinking, you know, when something happens, it's almost passive. I didn't choose it and wondering what it was. And I suppose it's the body needs to let go of stuff, right?

• 9:42Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  Maybe my subconscious saying, ah, you're not going to do this, so we're going to do it or something. I, I, but I cried for a good half an hour and lay down and, and then felt better for it. But yeah, it's a very good question and I don't think I carry it very well, but I do see it as, as a privilege. You know, I had a brilliant therapist once, who was actually an ex Franciscan monk.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  And he said, when people tell you their, their weight, their sadness, anything, their failings, whatever it is they tell you, treat it like someone's, they're giving you gold. Receive it like they're giving you gold.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  And I always think of that line when someone's telling me they've been in rehab for three years and a drawing has helped them and I just imagine them doing that.

• 10:34Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  You know, and I find it really overwhelming to see it that way. So in a sense, it's a privilege, but to carry it, we can't really.

• 10:45Elizabeth Day?

  You said something that I'm going to disagree with about the feeling that you don't think you carry it well. And actually, I think you are such an empath and a feeler that the feeling is the, it is the message. The feeling is the thing. And so actually, it's the most beautiful way I think you can respond. And there is something quite monk-like about it, actually, now that I think about it.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  That's a lovely thing to say. I mean, I think I'm usually lost for words.

• 11:21Elizabeth Day?

  Because you'll feel.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, you feel it. And sometimes there's a long silence where someone just says something and you look at them. The first time it happened was when I first started doing these drawings and I put on an exhibition in a gallery and didn't think anyone would really come. You know, my mum maybe and my sister and friends might turn up. And it was quite scary. And I remember a girl bringing her boyfriend to see me and he was huge. He looked like he played rugby for Ireland, you know, number eight or something. And she said, this is whoever. And I said, hello, you're Johnny. I said, hi. And he looked at me and I was sitting down and he just looked at me and he had tears pouring down his face. And I

• 12:01Speaker 00

  looked at him and then I had tears pouring down my face. And I held his hand and then gave him a hug. And we never spoke.

• 12:11Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  And I had no idea. I didn't need to know. It wasn't my business to know. But it was plenty for him to. There was a lot. He said a lot.

• 12:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. I think all the most profound human experiences lie beyond words.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Words, yeah.

• 12:33Elizabeth Day?

  And words are the closest approximation we can get to

• 12:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:36Elizabeth Day?

  in this fallible

• 12:38Speaker 00

  They're an attempt, aren't they?

• 12:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And I think you're probably asked quite a lot, like, why you think your work resonates? And I'm not going to ask you that because I don't think you need to put words to it. But I would like to ask you about your characters and whether you feel that your characters are facets of you. Talk me through how you see them.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  I didn't know that for a long time. I generally don't know a lot. And I usually am retrospective of what I do and go, oh, that's why I ran naked through a field. You know, it's always that kind of thing where I have no idea what I'm doing till I have this. And in similar with this, this journalist for the Independent on, in just after the book came out, said, of course, you know, we understand what you're doing. There are four different parts of you. And I was sort of, oh, yes, you're right. So I think, yeah, in they are or different facets of maybe being human. And or the or sort of, we can't be too clear about it.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  But generally speaking, we have different ways of operating and coping mechanisms and various things about us. And those four characters are definitely how I have operated a lot of my life, I think.

• 13:51Elizabeth Day?

  How do you describe them? What are their characteristics?

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Well, the boy is, the boy usually, he has all the questions, is anxious pretty much about everything. And probably thinks he's in trouble and or too ordinary. And or what happens if, or, you know, you one day will discover I'm ordinary and

• 14:16Speaker 00

  all these things he feels. And the fox is is sort of that wounded side that can't trust and is is sort of rilely observing people, relationships, connections and going.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  You know, and then the mole is the bit of me that, as you know, when, when, when things are tricky, I'll reach for the crisps, cheese and onion usually, um, snacks, you just lunges for things to come comfort. But underneath it all, I think, you know, the mole has, is the addictive sort of personality. And then, and the horse

• 14:58Speaker 00

  is probably the deepest part of us.

• 15:01Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. Now, why isn't there a cat?

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Would you like one?

• 15:06Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, please.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 15:07Elizabeth Day?

  I love cats.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Do you?

• 15:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. I mean, I love all animals, but I have a very special cat.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Animals to squeeze in.

• 15:13Elizabeth Day?

  There are, there are.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Similarly to ducklings. I mean, I just left, I came from Suffolk this morning and I've been looking after some ducklings whose mother was killed in April and I'm, I'm their mother or father. And they're just ducks, they're just basic ducklings are hamburgers until they can fly. They're just wandering around saying, I'm a snack, anyone?

• 15:39Speaker 00

  You know, they've got nothing. Their beaks are like soft lolly sticks. And they're surrounded by this terrifying, like the pond next to my cottage is literally like a, a stage on which is played this terrifying three-part drama every night. It's exhausting.

• 16:03Elizabeth Day?

  Have you protected them all so far?

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Uh, well, I didn't protect the mom because she was taken.

• 16:07Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, gosh.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  But

• 16:08Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  They can, they're, they're 12. Two, two, was it two or three days ago, they when they can fly, they're okay. Cause they can escape danger and they flew across the pond.

• 16:20Elizabeth Day?

  Oh.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  I filmed it by accident.

• 16:23Elizabeth Day?

  What a moment. This is yesterday.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Three days ago, yeah.

• 16:25Elizabeth Day?

  Three days. What a moment.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  But I was just filming, they were sitting and then they all decided and they came straight. I mean, just, and then when they land, it's like potatoes landing and they just don't know how to land. So they go, what are we doing? Okay then.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  But it's very moving that.

• 16:44Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 17:29Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Your first failure for today is that you failed your driving test four times.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  I did, yeah, yeah.

• 17:47Elizabeth Day?

  Why do you think that was?

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Probably didn't listen enough to what was being asked, too nervous, anxious.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  And also, the worst one was the fourth one, where I was quite hungover, aged 18. And without indicating, I pulled the car over onto a pedestrian pavement, opened the door and threw up. And I remember throwing on, you know how you throw your eyes watching? And then I looked across at the examiner, he had his thing, he was this look he gave me. It's just, you know. And so, yeah, so it was interesting, because actually in retrospect, I'm quite, it's really quite good. I think, you know, they're there for a reason, these tests, right? And if I'd passed, then maybe I'd have been sitting here. You know what I mean? Like, I was a reckless boy.

• 18:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  And my best friend at the time, still lives, I suppose, in my heart, was Jamie, who was killed in his car, I think, six months later. And I, it was those, it was those moments where I remember, before I was loading him into this hole, and I remember looking into the hole and thinking...

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Well, what do we do now? Everything's different now. There's a red line drawn now, you could feel it. Nothing will ever be the same.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  And, and then I went mad for a while.

• 19:19Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry that you went through that. And I'm so sorry that Jamie's no longer here in a physical sense. Can you tell me about him? What was he like?

• 19:31Speaker 00

  He was amazing because I, I, well, he was funny and kind and also was quite, I was often prone to lows. I went through quite lows and he would see them and often would pull me out of them. In this sort of, stop, stop moping. Let's get on and do something. And it would annoy me for 10 minutes and then it worked. And we'd go and feed some sheep or do something like, and I think he was, you know, one of those people that we loved music, played the same songs, just, you know, talked about girlfriends, failed at them, ate together, drank together.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  And so, yeah, he was, I was at school with him. But I definitely like the loss of him. You know, we all have, everyone has losses and I think part of you goes the bit that, that you, yeah, I think we're different with every, every person we're close to. We basically a different side of us. And so that was, you know, I think him a lot still. And, but what's interesting about that was the sort of, you have these sort of salient cataclysmic moments in your life, right? Where something happens and I then for some reason ended up, you know, getting a lift to London, never been before.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  And then staying on floors and seeing an ink pen on a table, three or four days after the funeral, maybe.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  And picking it up and asking if I could borrow it. And I walked out into the street, it was in Battersea. And sat down and started drawing the street without even thinking about it. And then I did that drawing, so I went into Battersea Park and drew again. And I thought, oh, I like this. And what was happening was I had borrowed these headphones with a tape. And I was really moved when I was doing it. And the combination, I started crying. And the music and the drawing helped me.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  And I haven't really stopped since. So really, that's what happened.

• 21:59Elizabeth Day?

  Goodness.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's mad really, if I think about it. When you trace your steps back, there's always these little things, aren't there? Could be a word or a sentence or a friend or something. And it was that pen on that table. And I liked the look of it. And it just made marks that were interesting.

• 22:18Elizabeth Day?

  What was the music you were listening to?

• 22:20Speaker 00

  John Amatering.

• 22:23Elizabeth Day?

  This is, I don't want this to come across as a, an insensitive question.

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Be insensitive.

• 22:30Elizabeth Day?

  Because obviously, I wish Jamie were alive today. Do you think you had to go through the grief to get somewhere, to get here?

• 22:41Speaker 00

  You know, that's very, it's impossible to answer. But I mean, I think for me that without it, I would have been very different. It broke me in half. And then actually, those years were hard. He wasn't the only one I lost. So there was a series of them. And of course, it's just like being.

• 22:59Elizabeth Day?

  Buffeted.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:01Elizabeth Day?

  And young as well.

• 23:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, eighteen, nineteen, twenty. And so I think, I then also, what's strange about it is I think when those things happen, it in a way gives you the confidence. You just go, well, so what then? What have you got to lose? Start, people go, oh, don't be an artist nightmare. You know, you'll never, you'll never, you'll never succeed at that, it's impossible. Or a bit risky, or come on, mate, get a proper job. But because of that, you think, no, just.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  Do what's in your heart.

• 23:33Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  And listen to it. Because guess what, we're all, we're all, none of us get out of here alive, so.

• 23:43Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  By not try, then what have you got to lose, I think?

• 23:48Elizabeth Day?

  Were you talking to anyone about how you were feeling?

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Ah. Such a good question. No.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  I wasn't. I didn't really know how to verbalise it then, age eighteen, in those days, you're.

• 24:05Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  People drank a lot. Um, so I think I just put it into ink and music. And, you know, crying with a Walkman on. And then just carrying on.

• 24:23Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  It's a good question.

• 24:30Elizabeth Day?

  Because I know you, you will speak very lovingly of your parents.

• 24:34Speaker 00

  I do.

• 24:35Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm also aware that we're talking about a different generation.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:40Elizabeth Day?

  Where, prior to books like yours and podcasts like mine, these sort of conversations about emotion and vulnerability were just not happening.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  No.

• 24:50Elizabeth Day?

  But do you think your parents were worried about you?

• 24:53Speaker 00

  That's a good question, I don't know. Um, I remember saying to my dad, because they, they were the war generation, so they'd been through.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Horrors, you know, they, mum lost her father on the Normandy beaches, my dad's father, you know, they all went through, and so I suppose. You know, they, they just stoically carried on, but for me, I remember saying to my dad.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  I think of the third friend who died, I said, is this normal?

• 25:22Speaker 00

  It was on the phone, he said, Charlie, this is not normal, I promise you that. And it was a lovely, it, it was heart, the way he said it was really heartfelt. Um.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  But yeah, I think, it may be me, I think I probably just did bottle things up.

• 25:40Elizabeth Day?

  You've also said this thing, I read an interview about your mother, when she was getting you ready for school.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:47Elizabeth Day?

  Buttoning up your clothes and saying something to you, saying one word.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:51Elizabeth Day?

  What would she say to you?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Well, it's more that she would, in fact, she was quite good at that, like even in her last year, whenever I saw her, she'd say, well, hello, said them all. But in those days, she would, she'd always, she'd always say, remember, always remember. And if I was going to school, she'd say, you are here, you know, you're all right, you can come back.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  You can start again. I love that idea, part of starting again, it's a new day tomorrow, just remember, we love you. And actually, nothing really else matters, I don't think.

• 26:26Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Ultimately, nothing really is any consequence, whether you succeed or don't, except whether, you know, love, love is it really, I think. Ultimately, isn't it?

• 26:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And there's so much in that single word, remember, there's so much love and history and tenderness.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, because we forget, there's a tendency to, especially in times of panic, I forget everything. When I'm in a tight place or things are a nightmare, I do forget those things.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  So important.

• 27:08Elizabeth Day?

  You, I'm sorry, because I feel like I'm just sort of bringing up these catastrophic losses in your life. But over the last few years, you lost your beloved mum and your beloved Barney, your dog. How do you remember them? Is it a sort of practice?

• 27:27Speaker 00

  It's a really good question.

• 27:28Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  You're very good. No wonder everyone loves your podcast.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Different ways, a different Barney, because he'd never really left my side.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  I often sort of sense him.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  And I actually, Barney came to me because I had another dog and good friends of mine had Barney. And so we shared him really from nineteen, eighteen years ago. And so it's lovely because I can talk to them about him. He came to stay and then stayed for eighteen years, whatever it was. And that's quite good to chat about his ways and crying. And Mum and my sister, we send each other photographs of Mum doing funny things. So I think, you know, processing with others really helps if you can. And

• 28:34Speaker 00

  I think, for me, I think with Mum, there was such a

• 28:42Speaker 00

  a tenderness and a humor and a lightness. And she really loved the drawings and she stuck them all over her walls. And you couldn't see the walls for the drawings. And I love that.

• 28:55Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  You know, and when she had the book, she wore out

• 29:00Speaker 00

  the cover with her fingers. She would read like this and she'd, and then, and so the embossing, the words were off. I've still got the book, there's nothing left. And sometimes she would hold the book open and she would, with her fingers run over the drawings and to feel them. And the only place I've ever seen that before was in a place called the Dragonfly Unit, which was a a hospital for teenagers who are struggling mentally. And I covered the, in lockdown, it was empty. I covered the corridors and other rooms with the drawings. And I've never met any of them, but I hear from them indirectly.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  And one lady who works, I said, there's a girl who's been here a year. It's a miracle she's even still here. But she runs her fingers, she's wandering where she runs her fingers over and they can barely see the drawing anymore on the wall. Because this, she's just, she's just looks at it and likes to connect with it. And I think that's what Mum was doing. Like when you feel something like that, you like to.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  There's something comforting about it. Um, so my mum did that. And I have that book and I look at it, I just, she, I walk past it every day and I look at it and think of her.

• 30:18Elizabeth Day?

  Because I know she had dementia, which is, I wonder if there's also something about, there's something so profoundly beautiful about holding on to the words and the stories. But ultimately, by holding on to them, they disappear. But then having the physical object of that book.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  It's a really interesting idea, this whole, the, the physicality of written words and connecting with them physically. It's almost like if you, it's like sculpture, you want to touch it or hold it or something, if you feel something. Um.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  But my sister was, when she, she lived next to my sister, um, and family. And so I went there every day to see them and I'd often find my sister reading the words to her. And I think I hear from a lot of people who, who, uh, have someone with dementia in the family. And sometimes they say that the book, because of the drawing, that the simplicity, that they connect through it. Um, there's something in it. And I, you asked me what it was, I don't, I don't know really what it is. Um, and it doesn't work for everyone, how could it, but I'm glad it does for some, you know?

• 31:30Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, it's honest. So fading your driving test four times, you do pass it, do you drive now?

• 31:39Speaker 00

  You know what, the weird thing is, less and less. I like trains.

• 31:43Elizabeth Day?

  I love trains.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Do you?

• 31:45Elizabeth Day?

  Love a train journey. I'll always choose the train over a car.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  Me too. So this morning, just now, I came, two hours sitting on a train. You know, I was bumped into someone I met on the train and three weeks ago, we had a good chat.

• 31:58Elizabeth Day?

  Don't like that.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  I didn't mind it. I was saying, I'm going to see you and she said, oh, I love Elizabeth Day. Yeah, so actually.

• 32:04Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, I love that.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Love that. Um, so yeah, I, I, for me, I know this, they're quite stressed. Cars, I don't know, I don't know anymore.

• 32:13Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 32:17Speaker 00

  Some people love them, that's fine. But, you know, trains.

• 32:22Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I find cars just inimically terrifying.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Terrifying.

• 32:25Elizabeth Day?

  I'm constantly thinking about the things that could go wrong. And then I have to actively make myself imagine the positive outcome that's going to happen if I'm at the wheel. Now, yeah, yes. Actually, it's the first time I've admitted that out loud.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 32:39Elizabeth Day?

  Because I feel like there's something about being an adult where you're just meant to be able to drive.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:42Elizabeth Day?

  But it's actually terrifying.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  But you're in a metal box spinning around the road with other metal boxes.

• 32:47Elizabeth Day?

  With other people.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Missing you by feet.

• 32:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  What?

• 32:51Elizabeth Day?

  I know. And they haven't all had the data acquisition of four failed tests. Some of them are less good drivers.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  True story.

• 33:04Elizabeth Day?

  There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its AI tools can help you get your site up and running quickly. And Shopify Checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, ooh, I like that, to, yes, I'll have one. If Shopify had existed when I started out, I could have saved myself a lot of time, stress,

• 33:49Elizabeth Day?

  and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk/fail. Your second failure is I haven't achieved conventional success. So many people have asked me through life, when I'm having kids, why am I not married?

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, all the time. Why aren't you married? Why haven't you got kids? And I don't come out with some erudite, clear answer. I just go, hmm. I usually ask them a question back. Something.

• 34:27Elizabeth Day?

  Why are you married? Why do you have kids?

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Or, or just, you know, why don't you plant more trees? But you know, like, I, it's something that I have wanted to do, but I have never wanted to do it for the sake of it. Um, and I feel like I've helped lots of friends with their kids, you know?

• 34:50Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I mean, beyond friends, I think you've helped the world with their children in, in terms of encouraging.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a very moving thought. I, I do get a lot of

• 35:06Speaker 00

  packages of books that have been made by kids with the characters, but with their own words. And that breaks me up. Cause they're so honest.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Will I ever not be ugly? Said the moth.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  You're beautiful, said, you know, all this stuff, you're going.

• 35:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I mean, perhaps if I may, your role in this lifetime, your purpose was not to have children in order that you could

• 35:37Elizabeth Day?

  parent in this way.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe. I don't, I don't, I don't think about it too hard about why I just, I tend to just play what's in front of me, if you know what I mean by that, like life presents itself. And you just take each day and do your best. And I think for me, there could have been times that there weren't, it hasn't, and that's, that's fine. And you are right. I think maybe I wouldn't have had the time.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  You know, because actually making those books and their journey to making them is not simple. And you have to become pretty obsessive. And, you know, I not see people for ages and these other writers, I'm sure you're not like that, but for me, I did disappear. And my main connections were with Instagram where I'd say, here's a drawing.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  And hear back from them. And that was really moving.

• 36:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, and that's very interesting because social media comes in for so much warranted criticism.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Warranted, yes.

• 36:45Elizabeth Day?

  But one of the things that I have always valued about it is that sense of community.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, man.

• 36:49Elizabeth Day?

  And often when you feel lonely or isolated, if you put something on Instagram and people see you for what you're putting out, it's incredibly profoundly connective.

• 37:03Speaker 00

  The number of people who have put a comment on a post and then there are 60 ensuing comments saying, oh, are you okay? Where are you? Do you want to meet for a cup of tea? You know, I'm sitting in the hotel, in a hospital corridor. My dad's had a heart attack and I've been sitting here for seven hours. And then they all begin a conversation that I'm only a small part of. And that for me, where people are drawn to something that they feel they can have some kind of belonging to is great. I love that.

• 37:33Elizabeth Day?

  Can I ask you why you think people feel they can ask you that question? Because I think not, I think it's interesting.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:42Elizabeth Day?

  Because we are so conditioned to accept and expect life.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:50Elizabeth Day?

  To travel a certain path.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:52Elizabeth Day?

  That so many people feel emboldened to ask you, why are you not married? Why do you not have children?

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yes, as if you've made a terrible mistake or you somehow failed society.

• 38:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Is it hurtful when people ask you? Or did it used to be?

• 38:05Speaker 00

  It might have been. I don't, I can't really remember, but I, I find it quite funny as well, because there's so many other questions you could ask.

• 38:13Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  But also people look at me and they go, well, he's quite scruffy and he's, he's a bit eccentric. No wonder. It's no surprise. He's, you know what I mean? He doesn't even know, doesn't wear the same socks. And but I have deep friends.

• 38:28Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  Deep.

• 38:29Elizabeth Day?

  But I want to talk about friends.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  That I would die for.

• 38:32Elizabeth Day?

  Let's talk about friendship.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Yes. I think it's one of the most underrated loves. We do spend a lot of time, quite rightly so, thinking about romantic love.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  And maybe because I lost my best friend very early on, so I've always felt the depth of what they can be. And you have them for life. I think I remember when I realised that, when that's the whole idea of someone of daring to say to someone, this is how I feel, who I am, what I'm going through, whatever. This is the storm I'm really in. Because we're all in storms most of the time. And for it to be met with, oh, yeah, me too. That's incredible. Yeah. I'm so grateful for my friends and they tolerate me.

• 39:25Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sure they're so grateful.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  I love them a lot, yeah.

• 39:28Elizabeth Day?

  For you too, this poet laureate of friendship, you clearly have such a gift for friendship. What do you think great friendship must entail? Are there sort of five qualities?

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Oh, my days, you're asking me to list five qualities?

• 39:48Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I've thought a lot about this.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  Go on, you tell me.

• 39:50Elizabeth Day?

  I've written a book about friendship.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Have you?

• 39:52Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  Why aren't you doing all the talking? You're asking me the question.

• 39:55Elizabeth Day?

  This is about you. Well, I think it's extremely individual and I'm so pro having conversations like the one that we're having because so many people don't talk about what friendship means to them and that can lead to misunderstanding. So there'll be certain people who want a daily phone call as part of their friendship. I'm not one of those people. And I think it's really helpful to work out the things that you value and to have the conversation with your friend about that and see where you meet. So the things that I value, you hit on it there, generosity of spirit is my number one quality in a great friend. Because I want them, I want to feel that they're thinking the best of me in any given situation.

• 40:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Even if I am rubbish on the phone and we haven't seen each other for two months because life is hectic. That when we do see each other, we can hit that relational depth quickly because there's no guilt associated with it. That's my number one quality.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  Generosity of spirit.

• 40:58Elizabeth Day?

  Generosity of spirit.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Love that. Yeah.

• 41:04Elizabeth Day?

  Curiosity, that's just one of my favourite human characteristics.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  That's amazing, isn't it? That's why you love cats.

• 41:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Among other reasons.

• 41:12Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, you really have to have a cat character.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:16Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:19Elizabeth Day?

  Anyway, do you agree with those qualities?

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Yes, very much so.

• 41:21Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, great, great. There we go.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  I think kindness, you know, I think kindness is a, you know, the word is used a lot these days, but it's such a crucial facet to friendship. And I think, you know, I remember meeting someone, not meeting, but my neighbour and one of my neighbours in Suffolk, and she said to me, you know, when are you going to make another book? And I said, I don't know, really. This is two, three years ago. I always remember, and she said, you know, I, I teach kids sometimes who have come from really tough backgrounds, and your book gave them permission to be kind.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  And I'll always remember that for many, but for many, with not least the fact they needed permission.

• 42:10Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  To be kind, as if it was something they shouldn't do because it's not cool or it's weak or,

• 42:20Speaker 00

  and kindness is, is the, is such a strength. In the same breath, you know, I did hear, I'm banging on about stories, but I did hear once of a tiny act of kindness shown by a teacher to people who had decided, she decided to not live anymore. And this was her last lesson. And 20 years, 15, 20 years later, she was back at the school, he was retiring, she had a child at the school. And she said to him, do you remember me? And he said, I'm not sure. And she reminded him who, who she was. And she said, I just want to say thank you because

• 43:02Speaker 00

  you did a tiny thing that was enough to keep me here.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  You were kind for 10 seconds. And so I, you know, I've always thought that, you know, kindness can be fleeting or huge. And and that all of these different ways of being so important. And I would love to be kinder. I would love to, you know, we're all on a journey of um kind to others and to myself.

• 43:31Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  That's a big journey.

• 43:33Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, that's a huge one.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 43:34Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Self compassion.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 43:38Elizabeth Day?

  And self acceptance, because that's really what we're talking about.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  Self acceptance, then I think you can accept others more easily anyway. So I think.

• 43:44Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  You know, I think this whole journey is uncomfortable of being human and beautiful and difficult. And I think, you know, kindness is and love, all these things help us on that journey. But particularly, I think, for me at least, and I know others, that to learn to speak. You know, I I lose so many things and I I lost my favorite mug yesterday.

• 44:14Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sorry.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's an ancient mug.

• 44:16Elizabeth Day?

  I love mugs.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too. It's just beautiful mug. I just I drunk tea and I just was berating myself. I was really, really laying into myself, what the, you done it, what? You know, this is after I come back from Ireland and I was so cross with me.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  And which is normal, but I just think I could have been a bit kinder.

• 44:39Elizabeth Day?

  I relate to this very deeply and I've had various therapists over the years. And one of the things that they will say to me when I recount a similar episode is whose voice is that? Who's?

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Ah, good question.

• 44:54Elizabeth Day?

  Whose voice is it for you?

• 44:56Speaker 00

  It's not one particular voice, I don't think, but it's an intolerant, impatient, critical voice.

• 45:03Elizabeth Day?

  Judgmental.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:04Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  It's interesting, isn't it?

• 45:07Elizabeth Day?

  It is. When I'm asked that question, I always say it's my voice. I like, I can't.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Do you think it is?

• 45:13Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. I don't think it would be so much easier if I could hang it on the hook of an individual who was mean to me. But I can't, that doesn't feel.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong, you know.

• 45:24Elizabeth Day?

  No, I think you're right. I think you're right.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  I I know, I I think it probably is me.

• 45:30Elizabeth Day?

  And no one in real life would be as unkind to you.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Wouldn't they though?

• 45:34Elizabeth Day?

  I don't think so. Definitely no one I've spoken to about Charlie Mackesy. You are so beloved.

• 45:42Elizabeth Day?

  Truly, and I think it's really important for me to say that and for you to hear it, even if you don't feel it, the hearing of it is important.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  I mean, I feel, I feel so grateful in my life. Like if today was my last day, I would feel nothing but gratitude.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  For everything, including the losses, pains, mistakes, failures, everything. And the love and my friends and people I'll never, ever meet, who I felt or had messages from, are the heartbreaking ones. So I do hear it and I'm grateful.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  But there's always a bit of me going, ah, but you don't really know me.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean though?

• 46:29Elizabeth Day?

  But that's what stops you from being insufferable. So that's actually a character strength.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  My cottage has piles of clothes in it and half finished things and I don't know.

• 46:44Elizabeth Day?

  But I love that. Yes, it's very human and it's very accessible. Anyway, that would have been a beautiful note and the entire interview on. But we do have one more failure. We have one more failure, which is that you failed at being an artist for most of your life.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:58Elizabeth Day?

  If, and you wrote to me, and this is such an astute point because failure, we were talking before recording about how it's such a diffuse vague term for something very complicated and nuanced. But you say, if failure means making a living, you've failed at being an artist for most of your life.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Being an artist is a strange idea anyway, because everybody is. You know, we're all doing, making things in different ways, whether it's a pie or a.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Or love, or a shirt, or making someone's day. You know, that's artistry in itself. So I don't know about all this artist word, but but for me, you know, now, like when I go in my house, it's ramble with drawings. And the ones in frames have all been exhibited and haven't sold. So I'm surrounded by work that hasn't sold. And I used to see it as work that has sold. Now I just see it as a really important part of the process of making, you're on a journey somewhere and you have to make these to get

• 48:01Speaker 00

  somewhere else. It's what you have to do. So like breathing to get to the door, you've got to breathe eight times, you know. So it's the same idea that keep breathing, keep making mistakes, keep trying, you know, and you get somewhere else, you move. And for me now, making art is not about anything other than trying and enjoying it and, and being, not putting the pressure on yourself to sell, not putting the pressure on yourself to achieve some, just enjoy it and be free to, to make the mistakes that you learn from. And I think the fear of not coming up to the standard you would like prevents us often from doing

• 48:45Speaker 00

  anything at all. People say to me often, I wish I could, I just don't let myself, I can't bear to see what I'll do. So, well, just, I think you're five years old because five year olds don't give a monkey. So just have a bin and do them and put them in the bin. And I guarantee the one you do after that will be more pleasurable than this one and da, da, da. And I think that's, that's the, the journey of life is, is to be in a house surrounded metaphorically with all your half-assed attempts. Brilliant.

• 49:17Elizabeth Day?

  Your noble failures.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, there you go. But, but I think that the process is an end in itself. I, I don't think we're all trying to get, now is it? There's nothing else. Now, right in the second, where we all are now is it? And this is our process. We're now half finished, messy, brilliant, vulnerable, awkward.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  States is beautiful and it's it's enough.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  And and we're always going, oh, well, tomorrow I'll be the X. Just be in it now and you're spectacular.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  I mean, I should say this to myself. I'm saying it to me included.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  And one day, as I always say, you'll look back and realise how how hard it really was, but how well you did. I really think that.

• 50:12Elizabeth Day?

  Just everything, that was just everything. Thank you so much.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  Is it?

• 50:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I want to I want to end. I, when I do my research for these interviews, I tend to note down particular quotes that someone has said before that

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 50:29Elizabeth Day?

  have meaning for me. And generally, it's sort of two or three. With you, Charlie, I've just got pages. And there's one in particular, which I really spoke to me. And I'd love to draw us to a close by talking about it. And it is, I don't think even the river knows where it's going until it reaches the sea. So it speaks so truthfully to what you've just said there, that you have to be the river without questioning where you're ending up.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:59Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel that in this lifetime, in this human shell that you're inhabiting, that you are living your purpose?

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I, that's a good question, a hard question. I hope so. I mean, purpose is such a central thing for all of us to have. Such as crucial to feel like we have purpose. And I I think, having been very aware of my own failings.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  And being as honest as I can about them. If that has helped someone feel less of a failure, then maybe we haven't failed.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  I, I, for me, this, this idea, okay, that if I can be in a little room making inky marks on paper somewhere, and they go out into the world, and they make someone in Australia, in some, in a town somewhere, they'll never go, feel better about their day, and more hopeful and less alone, and it gives them some kind of voice they didn't think, anything like that. Or they choose to stay when they were thinking about not. And that, for me, is, that is purpose, isn't it?

• 52:24Elizabeth Day?

  Charlie Macacy, thank you so, so much for your work, for who you are, for what you are, for coming on How to Fail. I feel the rivers of our joint experience have been leading to this moment in some way.

• 52:38Speaker 00

  I agree. I think you are incredible, and your book's beautiful and vulnerable, and so honest, and so necessary, and so human, and funny, and keep saying and doing what you're doing is a very important thing.

• 52:49Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you. Well, you have been the most perfectly imperfect guest. Thank you.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 52:59Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.