Full Circle | EP 8 | Season 2

In the final episode of Burden of Guilt, Jermaine Hudson returns to Angola—on his own terms. And he reflects on his extraordinary friendship with Bobby Gumpright. Meanwhile, Bobby returns to the church that showed him kindness and grace in the throes of his addiction. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. For more Burden of Guilt, follow us on Instagram @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To follow the work of the Promise of Justice Initiative online, go to https://promiseofjustice.org https://promiseofjustice.org/  at @justicespromise on Instagram and Twitter or @promiseofjustice on Facebook and Bluesky. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 1:22Nancy Glass?

  Jermaine Hudson and Bobby Gumpfried's story is one of a kind. It says a lot about the state of Louisiana and the way the justice system works there. But at its core, it's a story about redemption, about two men whose lives were derailed by one lie, and about Jermaine's extraordinary choice to forgive Bobby. I want to sort of reflect on what we're doing here, right now. You two sitting next to each other, telling the story. How does that feel to you?

• 1:54Speaker 05

  Most people go through these experiences with bitterness in their heart. They probably wouldn't even want to be around Bobby. They probably would really despise him for the rest of their life. But I'm built different.

• 2:11Speaker 06

  I am really built different. My heart is built different. My mindset is built different. And I really thrive off of just calling him, "How you doing, man? Is everything okay?"

• 2:28Nancy Glass?

  Most people would not be able to do this, not only forgive the person who wrongfully put you in prison, but befriend them. And as I worked on the story and talked to Bobby and Jermaine, I needed to ask Bobby one simple question. Do you think if the shoe was on the other foot, this would have been the outcome? Do you think you would have been able to forgive somebody who put you in prison and who took away part of your life?

• 3:20Nancy Glass?

  I'm Nancy Glass. This is the final episode of season two of Burden of Guilt, episode eight, Full Circle. They say you can't go back, but sometimes you have to. In October of 2025, our team took a trip to Angola. Jermaine agreed to join us. He hadn't stepped foot on those prison grounds since his exoneration in 2021. So our team started the drive from New Orleans to the prison.

• 3:54Speaker 06

  A lot of the fellows been asking me when I'm coming back. I wasn't really ready to face it at that moment because it was still fresh in my system. And I didn't want to look at that place. Now is a time for me to go pay my respects, pay my visit to the brothers that I grew up with, share a few laughs with them and give them some hope.

• 4:20Nancy Glass?

  For most of the ride, Jermaine sat quietly, holding his wife Kristen's hand.

• 4:25Speaker 06

  I remember this road like it was yesterday. And I've got goosebumps in my arms.

• 4:32Speaker 06

  It brings back a lot of memories coming up this road.

• 4:36Nancy Glass?

  As we got closer to the prison, those memories of what Jermaine endured came rushing back. It started when he saw the fields where inmates are forced to work.

• 4:48Speaker 06

  This road right here, we used to get out here with weed eaters and just cut all this grass on the side in like 98, 100-degree heat.

• 5:02Speaker 06

  It wasn't right.

• 5:05Nancy Glass?

  The weekend we went to Angola was a special occasion, the annual Angola Prison Rodeo.

• 5:13Nancy Glass?

  If you haven't heard of it before, this rodeo is a distinctly Louisiana phenomenon. Every year, Angola sells tickets to the public and puts on a true rodeo. The crowd was overwhelming. There was a jam-packed stadium with thousands of people walking around, people on horseback with flags. Our team saw bull riding, wild horse racing, and rodeo poker. And there was an enormous hobby craft market where you could buy handmade crafts.

• 5:44Speaker 06

  They build rocking chairs, they do bedroom sets, dresser sets. They make belts, jewelry. You know, they're very creative.

• 5:54Nancy Glass?

  The aromas from different food stalls wafted through the crowd. So if you're a fan of crawfish etouffee, you were in luck. But everyone performing and everyone selling their crafts is an inmate in Angola. Inmates get to keep money they earn from selling their crafts, but the rest of the profits are used by the prison to support programs.

• 6:19Nancy Glass?

  The rodeo is a complicated thing. Some on the outside think it's cruel and exploits inmates. They're not professionals. They risk serious injury for prize money that's relatively small. But for many of the inmates, it's the highlight of the year. It's a fleeting moment of normalcy. Inmates with demonstrated good behavior are offered the opportunity to walk the rodeo grounds. They can sit among their family and friends, share a meal, and feel like they're free in society for just a moment.

• 6:51Speaker 06

  A lot of prisoners love it. They really prepared for that moment. That's where a lot of guys make their money at. They love it because they get a chance to go out, be out for a while and see people from on the outside.

• 7:06Nancy Glass?

  Now Jermaine was returning as a free man. He didn't have to wear an orange shirt and return to a cell at the end of the day.

• 7:15Speaker 06

  The difference is, I'm on the outside looking in now. I'm not on the inside looking out.

• 7:25Nancy Glass?

  One of Jermaine's biggest motivations for attending the rodeo now was to visit the men he considered his brothers, the men he spent decades with, who were still there.

• 7:35Speaker 06

  It's a time for me to give them some hope.

• 7:40Nancy Glass?

  As he walked the rodeo grounds, people began recognizing Jermaine. One by one, inmates would do a double take and then come up and embrace him. You over here?

• 7:49Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 08

  Hey, bro. What's up, man? Man, I'm wondering, I've been looking all day, man. What's up, man?

• 7:57Speaker 06

  Been all right, bro?

• 7:58Speaker 08

  Yeah, I've been chilling. Trying to make the best out of bad situations.

• 8:01Speaker 07

  You know that's right.

• 8:03Nancy Glass?

  It was emotional for Jermaine and for the men he hadn't seen in years.

• 8:07Speaker 06

  What's up, man? I'm good, bro. Just waiting, man. Wait. March 26th. March 26th. Out of here. I'll be back to cool, man. How you doing, man? I'm good. It's good. I've been waiting on this thing. I know. I know.

• 8:22Nancy Glass?

  Angola has a way of reminding you where you are. This is a prison built on a plantation, a place where the past hasn't really passed. When Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years, he had no idea that hard labor was an understatement. Millions of dollars are earned off the backs of the men incarcerated.

• 8:46Speaker 06

  They take them, use them, work them, in a 110-degree heat, slaving them and throw them away.

• 8:57Nancy Glass?

  They work in fields.

• 8:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:59Nancy Glass?

  Outside.

• 9:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:00Nancy Glass?

  Doing what?

• 9:02Speaker 05

  Picking vegetables.

• 9:04Nancy Glass?

  They pick crops?

• 9:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. They pick all their vegetables and you got a security guard at the front of the line, riding a horse, and you got a security guard at the back of the line, riding a horse. But these guys are out there with jeans on, long sleeve shirts, with a tool on their shoulders, and they're walking, these guys, one in two miles in 100-degree heat. It's pure hell.

• 9:37Nancy Glass?

  On the farm line, there's no consideration for anyone's disabilities or limitations. This is usually where the men go once they enter the prison.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  This place has destroyed so many lives. So many of these guys are still buried on this plantation.

• 9:54Nancy Glass?

  After spending the day at the prison grounds with Jermaine, everyone drove back to New Orleans in silence.

• 10:02Nancy Glass?

  To understand what Jermaine experienced at Angola, we spoke with Gwen Filosa, a former criminal justice reporter for The Times' Piki Yun. She visited the prison while Jermaine was incarcerated there.

• 10:16Nancy Glass?

  The first time she drove onto the grounds of Angola, she says the scene felt almost impossible to process. Being at Angola felt like stepping into another century.

• 10:31Speaker 09

  When you pull up, it's a former plantation. You drive in, and you go through checkpoint, and you go see a guy with a long gun cocked. He's sitting on a horse. He's on a horse, holding the long gun. And then you see a line of prisoners, and they are walking either with shovel or a hoe over their neck, and they're walking out to work the fields. I felt like I was on Mars.

• 11:05Speaker 01

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• 11:33Speaker 10

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• 12:08Speaker 12

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• 12:44Speaker 11

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• 13:09Speaker 03

  And for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, Jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. Prescription Jardiance, empecagliflozin, 10 or 25-milligram tablets, are used to lower blood sugar along with diet and exercise in adults with type 2 diabetes. Jardiance is not for use to lower blood sugar in people with type 1 diabetes, and not for people with type 2 diabetes who have severe kidney disease. Serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine, and infection in the area between and around the anus and genitals, called the perineum. Both may be fatal. Severe allergic reactions, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in men and women, and low blood sugar. Stop taking and tell your doctor right away if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, rash, swelling, trouble breathing, or swallowing. Tell your doctor about lightheadedness,

• 13:53Speaker 03

  weakness, fever, pain, tenderness, redness, or swelling in the perineum. You may have increased risk for lower limb loss. Call your doctor right away if you have new pain or tenderness, sores, ulcers, or infection in your legs or feet. To learn more about Jardiance's 10- or 25-milligram tablets, ask your doctor, visit jardiance.com, or call 1-888-968-6648.

• 14:19Nancy Glass?

  When reporter Gwen Filosa drove into Angola, she felt like she was on another planet. To understand why, we have to go back, way back, to the Louisiana of 1865. After the Civil War, Louisiana needed to find a way to reinvent cheap labor to work on plantations. How could they recapture the black men who were freed after slavery was abolished? The state devised a scheme to create laws that would make minor or made-up offenses felonies.

• 14:52Speaker 13

  To get them into prison, you have to figure out ways that they are criminals. The most common of these laws was for vagrancy, which just meant not having a job. When vagrancy was made a felony, it took away all the leverage that former slaves had.

• 15:12Nancy Glass?

  That's Dr. Thomas Hayealo, an Africana Studies professor at Valdosta State University in Georgia, and the author of "Jim Crow's Last Stand." He told us that once prisons had men sentenced for minor, or even nonexistent, infractions, they would rent them out to plantation owners across the state. It was a boon for the state coffers and a source of really cheap labor for the men who could no longer legally own slaves.

• 15:41Speaker 13

  That became known as convict lease, and it was horrible.

• 15:49Nancy Glass?

  During that time, those men worked from sunup to sundown, chained, beaten, starved, and entirely disposable.

• 15:57Speaker 13

  The death rate in convict lease was about 25%, which means if you did get caught for vacancy, for standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, you had a 1 in 4 chance of that becoming the death penalty.

• 16:12Nancy Glass?

  In the early 1900s, the state outlawed convict leasing. They could no longer be rented out. But the farm work didn't stop. The state used their inmate population to work 3,000 acres of Angola's land to raise livestock, vegetables, and cotton, to name a few. Today, inmates get paid as low as $0.04 an hour for this labor. Some of the food is kept by the prison to feed the population, but plenty of it goes on the open market, earning money for the state. You might be wondering how this is connected to Jermaine's story. Well, the state has a financial incentive to keep this cheap labor.

• 16:53Nancy Glass?

  That could be one reason why Louisiana lawmakers opposed the bill Jermaine and Bobby advocated for, because that would mean vacating nearly 1,000 convictions, people they're making money off of. The executive director of the Promise of Justice Initiative, Samantha Kennedy, sees how history repeats itself at Angola over a century later.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  There's so much money in bodies, so much money in bodies. People are a commodity.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  That has not changed. It looks different. It's legitimized by the system. Without a doubt, those institutions are recreating, enacting, and embodying highly dehumanizing racist practices. And it's a tremendous assault to the idea that people in Louisiana belong to the rest of the country, that we have the same rights, that Black people have the same rights, that Black people deserve autonomy, freedom, joy, and family like everybody else.

• 18:02Nancy Glass?

  All of this weighs on the man incarcerated here. It weighed on Jermaine during his 22 years. And it's the thing that motivates Jermaine to continue fighting for legislation to overturn split jury convictions. He knows the guys who are still suffering at Angola because of a now unconstitutional verdict. Jermaine, what has driven you to keep going back to advocate for people?

• 18:30Speaker 05

  I have guys that I've actually formed a brotherhood relationship with. And to know that there are guys that's in the same situation that I was in and going through the same thing I was going through, it just motivated me to fight for them.

• 18:52Nancy Glass?

  Even though the last attempt failed, Jermaine is not deterred. He's going back to testify in front of the Louisiana Legislature next month because an estimated 1,500 other people are still incarcerated in Louisiana prisons after split verdicts.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Originally, when we started this journey, we had identified 1,500. Between now and then, people have died or we've resolved cases. But at this point, we think it's between 800 and 1,000.

• 19:24Speaker 05

  They need a voice. They need somebody to stand up and be like, even if I don't win, even if it fails, at least they can say, he fought for us. He didn't get out of here and just leave us. He didn't get out of here and just say, I'm done with that.

• 19:40Nancy Glass?

  About a year ago, Jermaine invited Bobby to his home in Texas. And even though Bobby accepted the invite, he was a nervous wreck. He was going to face the family Jermaine was taken away from for 22 years. Jermaine's wife, Kristen, was the first person who approached him.

• 19:57Speaker 14

  I was standing in the kitchen, and I still had not sat down. I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't know what to do with my hands. Normally, I'm pretty confident. In situations like that, I'm not normally somebody who doesn't know what to say or do. But in that instance, I had no clue what to do with myself. She walked over, and she grabbed me, like wrapped me up in her arms. And I just started sobbing. She just said, it's over now. You don't have to cry anymore.

• 20:35Speaker 14

  And when she said that, I knew what her heart was. And I knew that it was exactly what Jermaine's heart was. Because it was almost the same exact thing that Jermaine had said to me when we met.

• 20:50Nancy Glass?

  Here's Kristen.

• 20:52Speaker 15

  The embrace was natural. It's just who we are. Like, we just have loving hearts. So it was no ill feeling. Like, again, we're just so easy to be able to forgive him.

• 21:07Nancy Glass?

  Jermaine didn't just say the words, "I forgive you." He invited Bobby into his home and set an example of forgiveness for the rest of the family.

• 21:19Nancy Glass?

  As we wrapped up this series, I invited Jermaine and Bobby to come to our studio in Philadelphia. I wanted to sit down with them and talk about their unlikely friendship.

• 21:31Nancy Glass?

  I want to sort of reflect on what we're doing here, right now. You two sitting next to each other, telling the story. How does that feel to you?

• 21:41Speaker 05

  It's refreshing. It's refreshing for me because I know what it's doing.

• 21:51Nancy Glass?

  Jermaine, it's really hard to imagine how you're able to form this friendship and not have resentment. Can you explain this?

• 22:01Speaker 05

  Because when you have a heart

• 22:05Speaker 05

  and you're able to sit next to the person, the man that sent you to prison, and to have a bond, a relationship, it gives me a sense of peace.

• 22:22Speaker 05

  It gives me peace. I can go to sleep at night knowing

• 22:28Speaker 05

  that he did the right thing, even though it took 22 years.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  But I give him way more credit for even coming forward, to even have me on his heart to say, "I have to undo this."

• 22:49Nancy Glass?

  As we were reporting this story, there was one question I kept thinking about. Could I forgive someone who had done this to me? Who had taken away 22 years of my life for a crime that never happened? I don't think I could. I asked Bobby the same question.

• 23:07Nancy Glass?

  Do you think if the shoe was on the other foot, this would have been the outcome? Do you think you would have been able to forgive somebody who put you in prison? And who took away part of your life?

• 23:23Speaker 14

  Only if God gave me the strength to.

• 23:27Speaker 14

  But in my own power, as a very, very flawed individual, absolutely not.

• 23:36Nancy Glass?

  It's interesting because you, of course, punished yourself for years and years and years because of what you did. So is that still with you? Do you still feel guilty about those things?

• 23:52Speaker 14

  When I was approached with a lineup and I picked him out of the lineup, I was doing it out of selfish motives, not because it had actually happened. So I guess I don't know what feeling was really connected to that other than selfishness. Guilt is a powerful motivator. And guilt is an emotion that, as humans, I believe we need. And I do still feel guilt. What I don't feel anymore is shame. The difference is I did a bad thing. Not that I'm a bad person.

• 24:37Speaker 14

  There's a difference. And it took me a long time to understand that difference and not live in the shame. But of course, I'm still guilty of what I did. And it's still something that I think about constantly.

• 24:54Nancy Glass?

  Jermaine, what does the friendship mean to you?

• 24:59Speaker 05

  It means a lot to me because it shows my growth. It also shows the type of man that I've grown to be. You're looking at forgiveness. You're looking at a friendship that has been formed. You're looking at a life that has been changed. And I pray we can change others. I pray to whoever, you know, the listeners, the own listeners that's listening, I pray that they can forgive. It ain't got to be this situation. It ain't got to be a situation like this.

• 25:32Nancy Glass?

  Do you ever feel that your relationship with Jermaine is a reminder of the worst mistake you ever made?

• 25:44Speaker 14

  It's a reminder of the greatest forgiveness I've ever received.

• 25:49Nancy Glass?

  Bobby sees it as a miracle, a chance to finally live a normal life. You healed because of Jermaine.

• 25:59Speaker 14

  Absolutely.

• 26:01Nancy Glass?

  Part of the reason Jermaine was inclined to forgive Bobby was because he saw something in him that is pretty uncommon: genuine remorse. It started the moment Bobby testified at Jermaine's compensation hearing.

• 26:16Speaker 05

  I actually went to court and I seen him on the Zoom video. And it was something in my heart that captured me when I seen him crying.

• 26:32Speaker 05

  Because looking at him, I automatically felt his remorse. I automatically felt how genuine he was because most people don't cry like that. He couldn't even talk. He was crying so hard. Most people don't do that.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  I felt like I was going to be the one to help him just as much as he was going to help me get my life back on track.

• 27:06Nancy Glass?

  At this point in our interview, we saw Bobby go back to that place. Bobby, what brings up such emotion in you?

• 27:17Speaker 14

  Just words you never thought you would hear, right? Like, the man that I put in prison for 22 years, wrongfully, wanted to help me get my life back on track.

• 27:34Speaker 14

  I just want to be half the man that he is.

• 27:38Nancy Glass?

  Bobby's been sober for nearly five years. He works at a rehab facility and says he's a new man. Bobby sent us a text. It was a video taken in a crowded restaurant, and Bobby was on one knee. After everything he went through, every stride he made, he was now asking for someone to build a future with him.

• 28:02Speaker 14

  I've never been in a healthy relationship in my entire life, even with myself. So we're just super grateful to have each other and to be on this journey together.

• 28:12Nancy Glass?

  He married his wife Leslie in June of 2025. It afforded Bobby a joy he thought he never would have experienced.

• 28:21Speaker 14

  Oh, we're so in love. We're so in love. I'm so grateful that I have her with me during this whole process.

• 28:33Nancy Glass?

  Best of all, his friend Jermaine has been on the sidelines cheering him on.

• 28:39Speaker 14

  I've got a guy like Jermaine who like, she posted a picture on our Instagram of us. We were at a date night at the movies. And Jermaine jumped in there. He said, my favorite couple on the comments. And he said, we love you all. He'll call her and just talk with her and encourage her. And he'll say, what's up, queen? You know, he treats my wife like a sister. And we're truly blessed.

• 29:21Speaker 16

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• 29:50Speaker 02

  I'm not great at costumes, but I know which bottles to bring. Every Halloween, I stop at Total Wine & More before the party. Cold beer for the crew, ready to drink cocktails for the night, and a bottle of tequila for whoever wins best costume. Halloween plans come together fast, and Total Wine & More makes it easy to bring something for everyone at the lowest prices. I'm ready for Halloween. Are you? Get the party started for less at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. B21.

• 30:20Speaker 11

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• 30:40Speaker 12

  Yeah, card members can also enjoy 15 visits to the Delta Sky Club each medallion year when flying Delta, and you can unlock unlimited Delta Sky Club access after spending $75,000 in purchases on your card during a calendar year. Those are benefits you can get behind. You also get four one-time guest passes each medallion year, so you can bring a friend or a colleague along. 15 Sky Club visits plus four guest passes? That's up to $950 in annual value. Value estimate based on $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. It's that kind of premium access that helps you feel right at home and at ease, no matter where you're heading. Apply today at delta.com/podcast.

• 31:24Speaker 12

  Offer ends November 4th. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  And for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, Jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. Prescription Jardiance, emigliflozin, 10 or 25-milligram tablets, are used to lower blood sugar along with diet and exercise in adults with type 2 diabetes. Jardiance is not for use to lower blood sugar in people with type 1 diabetes, and not for people with type 2 diabetes who have severe kidney disease. Serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine and infection in the area between and around the anus and genitals called the perineum. Both may be fatal. Severe allergic reactions, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in men and women, and low blood sugar. Stop taking and tell your doctor right away if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, rash. Swelling, trouble breathing, or swallowing.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Tell your doctor about lightheadedness, weakness, fever, pain, tenderness, redness, or swelling in the perineum. You may have increased risk for lower limb loss. Call your doctor right away if you have new pain or tenderness, sores, ulcers, or infection in your legs or feet. To learn more about Jardiance's 10 or 25-milligram tablets, ask your doctor, visit jardiance.com, or call 1-888-968-6648.

• 32:52Nancy Glass?

  At the beginning of this series, you heard about Bobby Gumpright, the day he was high and homeless and stumbled into a church in Eunice, Louisiana. He chose that church because of the pastor's first name, Jermaine. Bobby felt like it was a sign. Two years later, Pastor Jermaine Tezano was doing his regular Sunday morning routine, opening the church doors and preparing for his congregation to fill the pews at Greater True Light Baptist Church. When the doors opened, the usual crowds stepped into the church, but then a stranger appeared.

• 33:31Speaker 14

  I wore my best suit, and I was cleanly shaven and smelled good. I walked in and saw Pastor Tezano standing at the back. I went up and shook his hand, and I said, "Hi, Pastor."

• 33:44Speaker 17

  I didn't recognize him at all. To me, he looked like a politician. He was this white guy with a suit, clean. And I shook his hand, and he said, "Pastor, my name is Bobby. Can I share testimony?" And my mind was, "Whoa, this politician is trying to come and sell whatever."

• 34:11Speaker 14

  And he looked at me kind of sideways, and he was like, "Oh, if there's time."

• 34:16Nancy Glass?

  At the end of the service, Bobby walked to the front of the church, and that's when the past walked in with him.

• 34:23Speaker 14

  There's a story in the Bible about ten lepers being healed by Jesus, and how only one came back to present himself as healed.

• 34:32Speaker 17

  He said, "I came to this church. I was homeless. I was on drugs, and this and that." And he said, "God has delivered me."

• 34:42Nancy Glass?

  Bobby walked through the congregation and pointed to Pastor Tezano.

• 34:47Speaker 17

  And he said to the congregation, "Your pastor gave me a place to stay. Your pastor gave me food to eat."

• 35:01Nancy Glass?

  Something in Pastor Tezano shifted. Suddenly, memories of a desperate and helpless man shuffling into his Sunday service years ago came flooding back.

• 35:12Speaker 17

  And when he started saying that, "I stood up."

• 35:18Nancy Glass?

  He remembered helping Bobby get back on his feet for one night, just for him to disappear the next morning.

• 35:25Speaker 17

  I said, "No, it can't be. This can't be. This can't be the same guy."

• 35:36Speaker 17

  I was so overwhelmed with joy. It was tears of joy, and we embraced each other.

• 35:46Speaker 14

  It's one of the best things I was ever able to do since Jermaine, to go back and show them what they had done for me, just that little bit of kindness that they had shown me.

• 35:56Speaker 17

  He is an inspiration to me and all of us, because all of us can say, "We saw Him down, but now we see Him up."

• 36:09Speaker 14

  I go there every couple of months now and say hi, and I feel like I'm part of their family when I go into that church. There's just some wonderful, wonderful people.

• 36:17Nancy Glass?

  Returning to this church was a full-circle moment for Bobby, a way to reckon with who he once was. Jermaine says he doesn't like to live in the past. Maybe that's what helped him survive those two decades in one of America's harshest prisons.

• 36:34Speaker 05

  I don't have time to be dwelling on the yesteryears or what happened. I don't have time for that. That's a chapter in my life.

• 36:46Nancy Glass?

  The truth is, Jermaine lost those years. He can't go back in time to continue raising his daughter Jeremia. Jeremia is now a young woman. In 2025, she had a baby boy of her own.

• 36:58Speaker 05

  He's adorable, and he's the light of the house. Honestly, he brings that joy to our house. Just to see his smile, that's my little heart right there.

• 37:09Nancy Glass?

  When his grandson laughs in the living room, Jermaine gets something he thought he'd lost forever: a chance to be present.

• 37:18Speaker 05

  You know, he look at me as dada too. You know, he be saying dada, dada. So I be trying to correct him. Papa, papa.

• 37:28Nancy Glass?

  Jermaine's life today is downright suburban. It's a long way from the Fisher Projects. He owns a home where he greets his neighbors on their front lawns. Sometimes, when we call him, he's at the gym with Kristen, where he's on the floor playing with his grandbaby. He recently went home from Mardi Gras, posting photos of himself and his oldest friends during the parade. It's obvious that Jermaine is thriving, not because he's trying to make up for lost time, but because he finally has time to live. Sometimes, he still can't believe he made it. Do you remember the lowest point when you were incarcerated?

• 38:08Speaker 05

  Every day was a lowest point because you don't know when it's going to end. My worst fear was dying in that place.

• 38:19Nancy Glass?

  Their friendship is something you really have to admire. I wish they had met under different circumstances because it makes me feel terrible that Jermaine lost 22 years of his life. But when you see this friendship, it makes you challenge your own ideas of what's possible with forgiveness, what's possible with redemption. It also shows what humanity is capable of. Okay. Jermaine, I know you don't like to dwell on the past. I can't blame you. And I don't mean to be all philosophical about this, but when you put your head on the pillow at night, what do you think to yourself?

• 39:02Speaker 05

  You survived that storm, you know. I know it wasn't no easy ride, but you survived that storm. And you just took off.

• 39:19Nancy Glass?

  Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying Burden of Guilt, subscribe, rate, and review the series with five stars. Yay! It helps other people find our show. So are you curious about what the people involved in this look like? Do you want to hear bonus content? Just check out our Instagram account, @glasspodcast, where we recap each episode with show notes that include people, places, and even court records. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at [email protected]. That's [email protected]. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division

• 40:04Nancy Glass?

  of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is executive produced and hosted by me, Nancy Glass. Produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Our story editor is Monique LeBord. This episode was written and associate produced by Jade Abdul Malik. Our production manager is Kristen Melchurey. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing by Zach Prouto. Mixed and mastered by Matt Del Vecchio. The Burden of Guilt theme is composed by Oliver Baines.

• 40:45Nancy Glass?

  Music library provided by MyB Music. And we want to give our special thanks to Jermaine Hudson and Bobby Gumpright. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app or Apple Podcasts. To follow the work of the Promise of Justice Initiative, go to promiseofjustice.org, on Instagram and Twitter at Justice's Promise, and on Facebook and Blue Sky at Promise of Justice.

• 41:20Speaker 10

  The Halloween party is at my place this year. It's my favorite party to host. With the lowest prices and the huge selection, Total Wine & More is my first stop. A bottle of wine for me while I'm preparing the snacks, ready to drink cocktails for the party, and beer for the friends who always end up on the couch. Between hosting and grabbing something to bring, I love getting the lowest prices. Now I'm ready for Halloween. Are you? Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. Be 21.

• 41:50Speaker 18

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• 42:18Speaker 12

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• 42:36Speaker 11

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• 42:54Speaker 19

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• 43:24Speaker 15

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