Ep. 350: Is Inbox Zero Possible?

The white whale of modern productivity discourse is achieving an empty email inbox; a goal state that’s often referred to simply as “inbox zero.” In this episode, Cal looks at why the original advice for achieving inbox zero failed and explores a strategy that might work better. He then answers listener questions and in a final segment reacts to a recent guest on the Tim Ferriss podcast who provides an interesting case study of the deep life in action. Find out more about Done Daily at DoneDaily.com! Below are the questions covered in today's episode (with their timestamps). Get your questions answered by Cal! Here’s the link: https://bit.ly/3U3sTvo Video from today’s episode: youtube.com/calnewportmedia Deep Dive: Is Inbox Zero Possible? [2:45] How can I perform beyond the bare minimum on “Survival Days”? [29:40] How can I remain sane with a job that changes schedules every week? [34:55] How are computer systems rewarded in AI? [37:08] How can I stop my boss from interrupting me with constant chatter? [41:34] CALL: Identifying the next action [44:02] CALL: Finding true depth during the final years of college [51:33] CAL REACTS: Craig Mod’s walks through Japan [1:01:18] Links:Buy Cal’s latest book, “Slow Productivity” at calnewport.com/slowGet a signed copy of Cal’s “Slow Productivity” at peoplesbooktakoma.com/event/cal-newportCal’s monthly book directory: bramses.notion.site/059db2641def4a88988b4d2cee4657ba?youtube.com/watch?v=z9UjeTMb3Yk Thanks to our Sponsors: cozyearth.com/deepauraframes.com [Promo Code “DEEPQUESTIONS”]kinsta.com/deepquestionsudacity.com/deep Thanks to Jesse Miller for production, Jay Kerstens for the intro music, Kieron Rees for the slow productivity music, and Mark Miles for mastering. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Cal Newport?

  I'm Cal Newport and this is Deep Questions, the show about cultivating a deep life in a distracted world.

• 0:23Cal Newport?

  Here in my Deep Work HQ, joined as always by my producer, Jesse. One of our first days with AC on in the HQ. Feel like summer is here.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:34Cal Newport?

  To feel good about. I just got back from Boston. That was a trip. Took the boys to Fenway.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  Oh, nice. Who'd they play? The White Sox?

• 0:42Cal Newport?

  White Sox. Yeah. Yeah. They lost.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  They won yesterday though.

• 0:45Cal Newport?

  Okay, good. Yeah. It wasn't a rousing showing by the home team. I couldn't, my memory is when I lived, I lived in Boston for a long time when I was a graduate student and a postdoc. And I couldn't afford Red Sox tickets. That's what I remembered. I mean, this was during their championship run, you know, I was there 2004 to 2011. But I don't remember if tickets were more expensive back then, or I just didn't have any money. It was probably something. So it was kind of nice. Like I could actually like buy tickets and go to a Red Sox game and bring my kids there. So it was a sort of cathartic situation.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  They had the most expensive ticket in baseball, I'm pretty sure. At least they did last year.

• 1:20Cal Newport?

  Well, it's a small stadium. I didn't really realize till I got in there after spending the last decade going to Nats games in Nats Park. It's like, oh, Fenway is a small stadium.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27Cal Newport?

  Really cool experience though. Went back to my old stomping grounds, walked around MIT, remembered what that was like, walked through Harvard, walked by my old apartment. It's a cool city. I like Cambridge. I like Boston. We just had a bunch of T-cards we got everywhere. We took the train. We took the bus. We took even the ferry takes you across, you know, that's part of the T-system is ferries to get you across the water. So memories, but it's good to be back to DC.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Have you been watching Clubhouse on Netflix?

• 1:54Cal Newport?

  I should. I should have watched it before I went to the game. Yeah.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  I mean, it's eight episodes. It's gonna take a while.

• 2:00Cal Newport?

  Well, I know, but that's like good workout fodder. It's a workout show. You don't have to really pay that good attention. Anyways, Boston, I miss you, but I am happy to be back in DC. All right. Well, we got a good show. We're getting into a sort of core digital era productivity topic that I was working with in my, the book I'm writing on the deep life. So it's been on my mind. We got some reader questions. And then for the final segment, taking a break from AI, do a classic react to something on the internet that Jesse has promised. There's something he has found. He thinks I would find interesting. So I'm going to encounter that in the final segment of the show and give my thoughts. And it's related to the deep life. So you can stay tuned for that. But with that in mind, why don't we get started with our deep dive?

• 2:45Cal Newport?

  Seventeen years ago, the popular productivity blogger Merlin Mann gave a talk at Google where he popularized the term inbox zero, which he used to refer to the goal of regularly emptying your email inbox to zero messages. Soon after he was offered a deal, soon after that he was offered a deal to write a book about his concept of inbox zero. The project eventually led him into an existential crisis about productivity more generally. He began the question, why do we even care about this? He never finished the book and he shut down his popular productivity blog. In the seventeen years since, I think many have had a philosophically similar reaction to the idea of inbox zero. People embrace its promise, but then give

• 3:28Cal Newport?

  up realizing that it is quixotic. They fall into a state of despair, saying, I never will be able to tame my inbox. I want to return to this topic today, seventeen years later. First, I'm going to go back and look at the advice that Merlin Mann gave and explain why it doesn't work, why it particularly isn't going to work today. I'm thinking describe a method that might actually work. I do go down to inbox zero, my various inboxes on a similar regular basis. I can explain what I do. And it's a little bit different than what Merlin was talking about. In the end, I'll justify why we should care. Why is it important to try to get your inbox empty? Is this just a? Goal that we set for the sake of having a goal or is it actually make our life better?

• 4:12Cal Newport?

  All right. So that is our game plan, Jesse. Let's get into inbox zero. All right. So what I want to start with is going back to Merlin Mann's talk. I'm going to play just a clip from this. We'll put it on the screen for people who are watching instead of just listening. And I'm just going to put it on the screen and play a little bit of Merlin talking and then it'll give us an overview of what Merlin's method was from 17 years ago.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Like I say, last time I'll say this, this may not be your trip. Like you're going to have to figure out what your, I think these are actually pretty sound. I think 80% of the DNA for most email systems is probably somewhere in here, but you need to figure this out for yourself. You have your own workflow. You've got your own life, got your own weird peculiar habits you picked up in college. Honor that.

• 4:53Cal Newport?

  Let's pause it here.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  With my blessing.

• 4:55Cal Newport?

  All right. So what we have on the screen, so Merlin has on the screen, five steps. Here, let's bring that video back just a little bit, Jesse, to the, to five steps on the screen. All right, there we go. The five steps he has on the screen labeled choose one, delete, delegate, I think it's still playing here. Delete, delegate, respond, defer, do. All right. So what he's saying is to go through your inbox, you have to choose one of these five actions. He calls them verbs. You have to choose one of these five actions for each of the emails in your inbox. Delete it, delegate it, meaning send it to someone else, respond to it right there, defer it to get back to it another time, or just do whatever it is

• 5:38Cal Newport?

  that's being requested of you. All right, we can take this off the screen now. Why does this not work for most modern inboxes? Well, I think there are two real issues with this. One, the key steps there that are different than simply just deleting it or doing it, responding when it's a quick response. I want to put those type of messages aside. Some messages you can just delete. Makes sense just to do that. Some messages you can do what I call a quick response. So without thinking about it much, it's a question that you know the answer to. And so you can just respond to come back. Someone says, hey, remind me again, what day the client is coming. You can just respond to that email. It's Thursday. Right?

• 6:20Cal Newport?

  Put aside those messages and those reactions. Many of these other steps, the first issue is they take too long. So the inbox, like that email in your inbox, might look innocent. But often, to delegate it, or to give a meaningful response, or to actually try to make progress on what's being asked, is a non-trivial investment of time. Emails are typically connected to some sort of back and forth discussion. The task at hand is multifaceted. The information needed for someone to act on it might be voluminous. Right? So now for me to respond to this message, like, okay, wait, so let me think about this for a second. I got to give the context of this project. I need to explain the backstory.

• 7:04Cal Newport?

  And there's like, three options here. And there's a different option, depending on which option you go with, there's different next actions you'll have to take. I mean, I'm thinking about some of like, the recent emails I have sent. Like, for example, I recently sent an email to the former director of undergraduate studies. I had a question about a student request. That's a complicated question I'm asking that's going to require quite a bit of details, and maybe even some back and forth to explain. Right? So actually acting on many messages can take four, five, maybe six minutes. Now, this doesn't sound like a lot, back in the day, where you might have a few emails to answer. But the modern load of people's inboxes is so large, that you can multiply that across

• 7:48Cal Newport?

  20 or 30 messages, and now you realize, wait a second, this could take hours. And it does. And I think people have this experience of trying to actually act on everything in their inbox. It's taking them hours to try to get through everything, and people don't necessarily have hours. The second issue here is brain strain. Hard to say that. Brain strain. Because here's what happens, as you jump from message to message in your inbox, how are these messages sorted? They're sorted by time. What time did a message arrive? Which means, you're going to likely be jumping from message to message, from one completely unrelated topic to another, one cognitive context to a different one. It takes time. We talk about this all the time on this show. It takes time to switch your cognitive context.

• 8:31Cal Newport?

  If I want to be thinking about an administrative issue involving our undergraduates, that's a completely different cognitive context than if I want to be dealing with a research collaborator on a problem we're working on. And if I jump from responding to a message about the first thing to a message about the second, my brain is still in that first cognitive context. So it's going to strain to try to answer the other one. You're going to feel this as a sort of grit in the gears of your brain, because your brain has the wrong networks activated. The networks you might need are inhibited. And until it can shift your attention, which is a high-energy procedure, you're going to struggle. Yeah, okay, research, what's going on here? You're trying to load things up. And what often happens is you struggle out of response. It's difficult, and you jump to the next message, completely different context. So now, before you've gotten to the new context,

• 9:16Cal Newport?

  you begin shifting to the third context. And your mind really feels that strain. That's a big ask for your brain. And you feel it as a sort of mental fatigue and exhaustion, which we often feel around our inbox. The brain strain from switching contexts in our inbox really creates that type of inbox fatigue that we're all used to, where you say, "I can't really answer thoughtfully anymore." And you just begin jumping around, looking for messages that you can delete or give a quick response to. It's because you exhausted your brain from jumping between those contexts. So the Merlin Man approach of, "Let's just go message by message and apply a systematic set of rules to each message till we're done," could take a really long time, and it'll probably exhaust your brain before you finish. All right, so how do we solve these?

• 10:01Cal Newport?

  What's an approach to emptying your inbox that might actually work? Well, let's look first at this issue of it taking too long to actually respond to or deal with each of the messages. My argument, and this is what I do, is that your goal when you're processing your inbox is not to act on every message. It's to get every message stored in a better system. Let me walk this through. As I go through inbox messages, delete the stuff you can delete, sure. Respond to the stuff that you can respond to right away. The client's coming on Thursday, sure. For the other things, I want them to go on to the, a pointer to those to go on to the appropriate task list. And you know, the way I do things, I talk about it on the show is I use Trello.

• 10:44Cal Newport?

  I have a different Trello board for each of the roles I play in my life. And then each of those boards is broken up into columns based on different possible statuses of messages, stuff I still need to process, stuff on the back burner, stuff I'm waiting for to hear a response on, stuff that I should talk to certain people next time I see them in a regular meeting, stuff I'm working on right away. I have different statuses in each board. I want to eventually get those emails as I empty them, either deleted, responded to, or a corresponding action on the corresponding card in a corresponding column of a corresponding board. Now, just copying from an email inbox and directly adding new tasks to something like Trello or Todoist or whatever you're using, even that is too slow for me. Here's what I do instead.

• 11:28Cal Newport?

  I have a blank text file open next to my inbox. Right, I call it workingmemory.txt, plain text file, not even any rich text formatting. I'm going from my inbox to notes in that text file because I can type really fast. And in a text file, I don't have to click any buttons. I don't have to create any new cards. I don't have to type in any new categories. I can just type. All right, remember to do blah, blah, blah. Get back to so and so about this. If there's details in the email that I need to be able to act on whatever, I'll copy them in or I'll sometimes I'll just copy the subject line. So I know what to search for in Gmail if I want to find that message again. Copying things, either deleting, responding to, or adding a note.

• 12:12Cal Newport?

  Okay, here's an obligation, this message responds, archive the message. And my text file grows with these notes. Then what I do is I look at what's in that text file and I can remix, reorganize, reconsider and consolidate. So when you see all of these things listed in your own words, they're not emails in your inbox anymore, but you've honed them down to like, need to figure out this for so and so, so and so needs this information. Get back to, you know, so and so with these grades or whatever. When you see them all together, you can begin very quickly in a text file messing around with this information. Well, let me batch together things that are similar. Let me consolidate. Now that I look at it, there's four different requests in here that comes from the same person. Okay, I'm gonna put these all together. I'm gonna change this

• 12:56Cal Newport?

  to set up, you know, stop by so-and-so's office to discuss issues and I'll put these all below it. So I can consolidate all of that. Some things you'll, the reconsider step, some things, once you look at everything in the light of, the harsh light of your text file, you're like, I don't really need to do that. I'm not gonna do that. You kind of like take some things off your plate. So it really cleans up all this information. And then you can go from that text file, start adding things into your, your system from the text file itself. Alright, it's quicker. It is much quicker to type things in a text file than to actually try to act on these. It's much quicker than trying to like create different things. And typically, there's a fair amount of reorganization, consolidation, and reconsideration that happens between the text file and actually going into your task systems.

• 13:38Cal Newport?

  The second issue that we pointed out with Merlin's system was the brain, the brain strain of switching context back and forth. Well, this we can solve as well. This is a method I've mentioned before on the show, but I think it's really important. It's to organize your messages when you're processing them by context. This could be really simple. In Gmail, I'll have a label and you could just call it context or processing or something like this. And I'll go through my inbox. I'm gonna find every message that's related to that. So maybe it's a director of undergraduate studies and another one for my, or it's my class, or it's writing related, like whatever the context is. I'll go through and I'll

• 14:21Cal Newport?

  find all the messages for that context. In Gmail, I'll click all their checkboxes and then I'll apply a bulk action, label them with the processing label. Then I can jump over to the processing label and just see those messages. And like, great, let me go through those. And now I am only processing messages that are from the same cognitive context. It goes faster because your mind is just thinking about this stuff, even just copying to the text file, making decisions about what you really need to do or don't do, all of that gets much faster if you're within the same context and the strain is much less. Then you go back to your inbox and choose a new context, then grab all those messages, put those together, deal with them in a row. It feels really different. And at first, it seems almost miraculous. Why is this going much easier? It's because your brain isn't switching context. Like, yeah, we're just in the mood.

• 15:05Cal Newport?

  We're doing class-related emails. You kind of get into the mood of it. I happen, this happened to me the other day, right? Processing a bunch of backlog emails from my class. I processed them all together in the same context. A lot of the messages were students with questions about grades because I had handed back a problem set recently. Well, when I'm just looking at that context, I'm like, great, let me sort all those together. I'll put all these grading questions over here and I can just have like a session later of just like going through and doing grading questions. A lot of them I could answer really quickly because like, oh, I've seen the same question a bunch of times, so I can just answer those now, et cetera, right? I've done the same thing with like my Director of Undergraduate Studies duties, right? I pull out just those messages and like, okay, what do I really have here? Well, there's like three students I'm working with on some external course

• 15:50Cal Newport?

  approvals and all these messages are from them back and forth. Let me just load in that context. Okay, where are they? Let me, you know, let me update, look at the notes and I can make a clear next action for each of these students. I can make those decisions better when I'm just in one context. So you process context by context, it's going to go much easier.

• 16:10Cal Newport?

  All right. So why should you do this? Why is it worth trying to go through the trouble of once or twice a week, getting your various inboxes emptied into your task systems? It's because your inbox is a terrible place to store obligations. If you don't do this, what you're implicitly doing is saying my inbox has now become one of my primary systems for keeping track of things I need to do. Right, we got to keep track of the things you need to do, or you're going to be stressed as your mind tries to do it for itself. There's no structure in your inbox. This is problem number one with using it as a task management system. There's no structure in your inbox. So now the various things you have to do are just all jumbled and mixed together. It's very difficult when you're trying to figure out like, okay, what am I going to work on today, or what am I going to work on next?

• 16:52Cal Newport?

  It's very difficult to jump into an unstructured inbox and just see all this different stuff. Two, tasks are obfuscated in an inbox. What do you see in the inbox? Not the well-labeled task in your task system. You see subject lines. And the subject line for a key task that has to do, or the actual task is, you know, getting in touch with the advising dean to clarify a question about online course credits. What you actually see there is re:re:for:summercourse, or something like this. And it's not clear what that means. So now you have to try to recreate from obfuscated subject lines what the actual tasks are. So it's very hard to get a sense of the various things you have to do.

• 17:35Cal Newport?

  And there's a bunch of junk in your inbox, stuff that should just be deleted, there's junk mail in your inbox, other sorts of things in there that obfuscate. So it's like the worst possible task list. It's a task list where you are camouflaging the actual task with fake decoy task, and then changing the title of your task so they're hard to read, and then mixing them all together. If I came to you and said, "This is my plan for a productivity app," you are not going to invest in that. But that's what happens if you're using your inbox. When you instead have your tasks stored by role, and within role by status, it's much, much easier to deal with. Now, when it's time to deal with stuff related to your class, you just go to that board, and it's all organized. Like, here's the stuff I need to do, I maybe have a column for like pending grading questions.

• 18:16Cal Newport?

  Okay, I'm going to this afternoon put aside time just to go through all those in order, and I'm going to get back, I have these more complicated, you know, accommodation requests. I'm going to ping those people. I see I have like six of these built up, and I think I need to just go over to the Academic Resource Center and have a conversation. Why don't I send them all a message when I'm doing my next teaching block, and just be like, "Hey, just wanted to let you know, I see this is here, and I am having a meeting, then I'll get some answers to you." And then I'm going to move those over to a waiting to hear back. And it's like, okay, after I have this meeting, get back to all these people. You're just... Dealing with things, you're seeing things, their status is clear, you can make intelligent

• 18:57Cal Newport?

  decisions. Working off structured task storage is just way more calming and effective and efficient and stress reducing than working from a camouflage obfuscated task list, which is what an inbox actually is. So I think inbox zero is possible. You don't have to be there all the time, but to try to get back there once a week, I think is a not a bad standard. And if you fall behind, okay, then you can do it the next week. It takes a while. You know, I it's hard for me to say how long it takes me because I have five inboxes. So it depends on the inbox. But, you know, I'm gonna, I just got back from this trip. So I'm gonna have to process my plan today is to process my Georgetown inbox back to zero. That one, I try to keep to zero twice a week because it's urgent stuff. It's my job. In

• 19:39Cal Newport?

  my writing life, I think people recognize, I don't always am, I'm not always able to get back. I have a bunch of jobs, but I'm, you know, I'm an independent writer, you know, give me a little grace. But in my job as a professor, I like to be much more prompt. I'll empty it like twice a week and maybe it takes 20 to 45 minutes to get stuff in the task list when I do it this way. All right. Two other things I'll throw out there. I don't want to go into detail, but two things that makes this a little bit easier. This is like more standard advice. One, and these both have to do with reducing the messages to process that you have to process in the first place. One, do a junk mail sort of confrontation day once or twice a month where you go through and say like, what messages am I getting? You know, the junk that builds up. I, how did I get on this list? This is

• 20:22Cal Newport?

  like promotional. Google is not filtering this for me. Once or twice a month, when you're clearing your inbox, add extra time to try to unsubscribe or filter from all of those things. So like, okay, it's just deleting. You know, it's the message from Whole Foods and the message from I bought something from the store three years ago and now I get six emails a week from them. I'll actually take a time to try to prevent these from ever coming to my inbox again. And you can, if you can auto unsubscribe, do it. If you can't, you can do like filter messages like these in Gmail and just have it go straight to trash or archive. If you do that once or twice a month, that prevents the junk messages from, from getting too out of control. It's not that big of a deal to delete junk messages, but it can be psychologically difficult, like a bit of a hurdle to see like 300 messages in your inbox.

• 21:06Cal Newport?

  Even if you can erase 200 of those almost right away, it's much easier if they just don't show up in the first place. The bigger thing you can do is try to move more back and forth collaboration out of asynchronous messaging and into other forums. I wrote a whole book about this called The World Without Email. Read that book. But the very short version of it isn't, you do not want unscheduled messaging back and forth to be the way that you make decisions about things. Use office hours, use like a standing group clearing the docket meeting, grab people in the hallway or after meetings, have a list of things to go over with people, but do what you can to avoid having back and forth messaging be how you figure something out. Because that becomes a big driver of

• 21:48Cal Newport?

  not just the number of messages in your inbox, but the number of messages that require non-trivial answers and time-sensitive answers. So if you can reduce those from showing up in your inbox in the first place, processing your inbox to zero does become easier. So there we go. Maybe we need a new term for it, Jesse. Inbox zero has kind of been, people are, they think that's impossible. But I don't know, it's a good one. I don't know what else to call it.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Do you do that with your personal email too?

• 22:12Cal Newport?

  Yeah. But not with, I have not been doing it with the podcast email. It's been taken over. So I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to take some time. I mean, people mainly know just to bother you. So that helps. But the calnewport.com address has gotten on too many like PR and marketing firms list. And so I have to spend some time to go through and like hide and unsubscribe to all of those because it'll be just hundreds of messages a day now. And it's all like press releases and this and that. So that one, I lost control of. I have to get control back of that one. But like my New Yorker address is blissfully, because that address isn't really out there in the world. It's like blissfully spam-free.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:57Cal Newport?

  Yeah. It's like.

• 23:00Cal Newport?

  Dave Remnick, like announcements for the staff or something like that's it like like this is what email is great. That email address is like what email was like in 1999. I'll like load up that inbox. It'll be like four relevant announcements about, you know, from like Conde Nast and hey, there's, um, we're like celebrating this tonight. You know, you can meet us here. Hey, I want to congratulate so and so for like doing well. And then maybe there'll be like a question for me, you know, like, hey, you need to do your like, uh, IT training for Conde Nast or something. And it's like three messages and they're all kind of relevant. It's great. It's like what email used to be.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  So when you're, say you have like a thread for Georgetown related stuff and you want to remember what that said like six months ago, do you keep like a description file or something and just a folder so you can go back and check?

• 23:49Cal Newport?

  No, because everything and, you know, we use Gmail on our show, we use it at Georgetown. Everything's archived.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Well, so you just archive it with the subject title.

• 23:56Cal Newport?

  So I just, and my, my task will just have the subject. I usually just copy the title and it'll say like, search for. Yeah. And then I could just search for that, the exact title of the message and it comes back. A listener wrote in, I mentioned this recently and a listener wrote in and said, actually in Gmail, it's possible to get a link. If you're using the web-based inbox, there's, you can actually like copy a link. It'll take you straight to the email. I don't really know how to do that.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  But it say the task is complete. Do you archive your tasks too on Trello?

• 24:28Cal Newport?

  I think it does. Yeah. So I, I think-

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I always delete them, but I think you can archive.

• 24:32Cal Newport?

  I click archive. I always click archive. Yeah. So in Trello, when you get rid of a card, you can delete it or you can archive it. And I've just been clicking archive. So yeah, in theory, it's all in there because I'll copy information into it. So don't be afraid, by the way, when you're working with your text file, there's no, you're not charged by the word, right? The copy a lot of text from an email and just like drop it in that text file. And then when you create a Trello card, just paste all that text on the back of the card. Like you could, if you want to put like all the relevant information in your Trello card, you can go ahead and do that.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  So if you needed to like revisit something six months later, you'd go back and check?

• 25:05Cal Newport?

  I've never done it, but in theory, yeah, I think I could search the Trello archive and like find, uh, tasks I'd, I'd already done. And like when I've done them, like I could see that being useful. So, so I do archive those tasks. All right. Well, we've got some good questions coming up, but first let's take a brief moment here from a sponsor.

• 25:24Speaker 03

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• 25:53Cal Newport?

  Want to talk about my friends at Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth, especially the Cozy Earth Sheets. We just got back from a trip, as I mentioned, and we were really looking forward to having the Cozy Earth Sheets waiting for us. As I said recently, we now have four sets of Cozy Earth Sheets. I think we used to have like two, so that when one was being washed, we could have another on the bed. And then we realized when we had visitors, then we wanted the visitors to have the sheets and we wanted to be able to switch those out. And I think we now have four sets of them. If we're traveling for more than a week, we travel with our Cozy Earth Sheets. It's just the most comfortable sheets I have ever slept on. They're very comfortable, but they're also cooling. Something about the bamboo-based material they're made out of is

• 26:38Cal Newport?

  you don't overheat with them on, but it's just a very comfortable sleeping experience. I highly recommend them. There's various holidays coming up, like Mother's Day. I believe that would be a fantastic gift. We also have other cozier stuff in our house. We got the towels, I have a sweatshirt, my wife has the PJs. We have the duvet cover. I mean, we're like a Cozy Earth-sponsored family. All we're missing is like a Cozy Earth decal on our Kia Carnival Hybrid minivan. We might as well, because we are that much of a Cozy Earth family. So I can't, I can't.

• 27:16Cal Newport?

  Emphasize them or endorse them more really is a product that I actually like. You really will feel the difference sleeping on those sheets. They have 100 day, 100 night sleep trial. Enjoy over three months. They enjoy the comfort. If you're not completely in love with your bed and you can return it hassle free. You're not going to though, you're going to love them. And of course there's a decade long warranty on everything as well. So, you know, no risk. Luxury shouldn't be out of reach. Visit cozyearth.com and use my exclusive code DEEP to get up to 40% off Cozy Earth's best selling sheets, towels, pajamas and more. Trust me, I have all of those products. You won't regret it. That's cozyearth.com code DEEP. And if you get a post purchase survey, tell them that you heard about Cozy Earth from Deep Questions with Cal Newport.

• 28:01Cal Newport?

  That helps me. They know you came from me. Sanctuary awaits at Cozy Earth. I also want to talk about another product that I am a huge believer in. And that is the Aura Digital Picture Frame. So you may have seen these before. It's a digital picture frame you set up where the picture in the frame is digital. And what happens is you can easily upload pictures like from your phone, for example, into the Aura service and they show up, they rotate through on these digital picture frames. We bought one for my parents and then we bought one for my wife's parents. They love them. Mother's Day is coming up.

• 28:42Cal Newport?

  You should buy this for your mothers, especially if you have young kids. It's really easy to use. We have it set up on our phone so we can just grab a photo we took on our phone and click the right button. And then boom, it shows up in their Aura Frames. I hear from my mom all the time. She will text me just out of the blue about specific pictures. She will say, where was this picture taken? And I'll be like, mom, I can't see the picture frame. I don't know what you're talking about. And then she'll explain the picture and I'll be like, oh, that was like six years ago or whatever. Anyways, they both love them. I think it's a fantastic gift. It works really well. Other people agree Aura Frames was named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter. You gotta trust Wirecutter.

• 29:24Cal Newport?

  They were featured in 495 different gift guides last year. So the next time you need to call your mom, you can also send her a new pic of the trip you're just telling her about right from your phone. We just sent a bunch. We got back from Boston. We just sent a bunch of pictures to both of our parents Aura Frames. So Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best-selling Carver Matte Frame. That's A-U-R-A-frames.com. Use the promo code DEEPQUESTIONS and support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. All right, Jesse, let's do some questions.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  First question is from Julia. I have a similar rating system that David Dwayne discussed in the most recent in-depth episode. On my scale, bad days are ones and unbelievable days are fives. I call the ones survival days. There are times when I need to perform beyond the bare minimum on survival days and don't know how to do that.

• 30:30Cal Newport?

  Well, first of all, thanks for the shout out to the David Dwayne episode. I like that episode, Jesse. It was, you know, it wasn't like we were having on a famous writer or someone who was an expert in different topic. It's just someone who lived a really, he lives a very intentional, deep life. I've known him forever. And the fans seemed to be responding well. Like this guy was interesting.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I liked it too.

• 30:51Cal Newport?

  He had like interesting ideas, very intentional. I think it was inspiring for a lot of people. And I love his method of keeping track of every day, how good it is. You can look for these trends. And so that's probably the big picture thing, Julia, is figuring out how do you have more of the unbelievable days and how do you have less of the survival days? Short term, what do you do on survival days? You're asking how to perform beyond the bare minimum. Well, first of all, I say, don't have high expectations for those days. Life is long. Okay, so hard days, we have a fair amount of those. You don't have to try to squeeze out unless you really have to. You don't have to try to squeeze out more productivity.

• 31:32Cal Newport?

  Being organized, working on things that are important, staying on top of things. We talk about that a lot on the show. You know, this services the bigger image of your bigger goal of having a deep life. But ultimately it's trying to serve your life. So to make your life today harder, because you're like, well, if I'm more productive today, there's some abstract goal in the future that might be better is a trade off. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul, right? If you're having a hard day, let's honor the fact that it's a hard day and be okay with that. Okay, I'm not doing as much today. It's like when you're sick. Okay. I mean, my, my wife always gets, makes fun of me because I'm sort of offended by the idea of getting sick. Like this is offensive to me that I can't like go do X, Y, and Z. And she'll say, you're sick. This is fine.

• 32:17Cal Newport?

  So I want to first lower your expectations. The next thing I would say, okay, if you have hard days, it helps in general to minimize the self-initiated effort required for the stuff that kind of keeps the lights on proverbial speaking. So in advance of any hard days coming, I'm a big believer of trying to autopilot as many survival activities as possible. So it's just, this happens automatically or on an automatic schedule. Like this is where like how we deal with, you know, bills and the, the client time sheets that have to go out and you know, this, these shopping that has to happen, like the things that need to happen. Make that as autopiloted as possible.

• 33:02Cal Newport?

  So it's either automated or it's automatically in your schedule. I just do it without thinking the first hour on Tuesdays, I gather all the bills and as they come in throughout the week, I gather them in this mail sorter. And it's just the first thing I do on Tuesdays, that time is never scheduled. I get a cup of coffee and I sit down, I go through them all. My filing cabinet's here and I have stamps and I have whatever. And I walk to the post office and get a cinnamon roll there after I mail them to sort of reward myself for doing it. You, you don't have to think about it. It's automated because the automated stuff you can just execute even on hard days. Like let me just do the automatic stuff. What's hard is self-initiated effort because your brain doesn't have. The chemical energy it needs to be like, let me get ahead of motivational steam going

• 33:47Cal Newport?

  here. Hey, I know today is hard, but I really want to get going on working on this project or trying to get five things done off my to do list. Come on, we got to motivate ourselves. It's hard to motivate yourself on hard days. The automatic stuff you just do, you still brush your teeth, you still take your kids to school, you know, like the stuff that you normally do, you just sort of go through the motions. So you want to make in general, most of the survival stuff automated or automatic. And then when a hard day comes, you can be like, great, I'm not going to motivate myself to do anything new. I'll do the stuff that's automatic and then I'm going to, you know, eat that cinnamon roll and be okay with that. That one I took me a little while to learn, Jesse. I took me a while to be like, it's okay to have harder days.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  How often do you have hard days?

• 34:32Cal Newport?

  You know, for me, like sickness is a big one. I get very frustrated by, by sickness. And then unexpected, it's like family crises, like not me being sick, but two kids being sick at the same time, or, you know, my wife has to go here and this kid has to go to the doctors or that type of stuff. You get more used to it. So I get a little bit more used to like, that's fine. Like, we'll be okay. There's a bigger question here. In addition to just automating your schedule, there's like a bigger goal, which has always been a big goal of mine, is trying to set up a work schedule where no individual day is vital. That's a whole other conversation, but to me, I think that's an important goal, where you say, it's not vital that I work on Tuesday, but it would be a problem if I skipped every Tuesday. In other words, you have give in your schedule. You're working

• 35:17Cal Newport?

  on important stuff. It requires a lot of hard work, but you don't have a ton of urgency. To me, that's sort of an ideal schedule. All right, who do we got next?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Next up is Natasha. My new job is shift based and changes weekly. With my old job, I used to autopilot and use weekly templates. Now, no can do anymore. How can I plan and gain clarity with this changing schedule?

• 35:39Cal Newport?

  Well, first, let me just briefly define for listeners who don't know what autopilots and weekly templates are. Autopilots, we just talked about in the last question. That's where you have work that happens on a regular schedule, and so you can have an automated way you deal with it. Like, oh, I always do this Tuesday mornings. Weekly templates, we talked about this being like a general structure for your week. So when you're doing your weekly plans, you already kind of have this general structure. Like, you might say, look, for this semester, if I'm a teacher, I can have a general weekly template, knowing like, these are teaching days, and this is generally how I'm going to structure them. And non-teaching days, I'm going to structure them this way. Like, non-teaching days, I'm going to write until noon. Teaching days, I'm going to prep before the first class, it's office hours. You can kind of have a general structure for your

• 36:24Cal Newport?

  week for the current season. All right. So in your case, you're saying the structure of your job can change week to week. Neither of these things will work. Okay, what you need to really then lean into is your weekly planning. Your weekly planning is now more important because you're essentially having to create de novo, you're creating from scratch, a smart plan for each week as you arrive and understand what your shift work that week is going to look like. So you need to put more time into your weekly planning. You have to sit there and say, okay, how am I going to make sense of this week, given that this is what my work is going to look like? And then you can mark up your calendar, however you want to lock in your plan. Okay, well, I'm going to do this type of work here, and I'm going to have to consolidate all of these tasks for household tasks on the

• 37:08Cal Newport?

  Friday afternoon. You really want to make a careful plan for each week. So give yourself 20, 30 minutes at the end of each week to plan the next one, and put a lot more emphasis into your weekly plan. The key is intention. Yeah, repeatability makes this a little easier. If you could autopilot schedule, if you did have a weekly template, it's easier to weekly plan. You don't. But the key is still to have intention. And I think the weekly plan is going to prove really important if the nature of your weeks are really changing, really changing from week to week. All right, we're rolling here. Who do we got?

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Next up is Bruce. Cal recently talked about the distinction between the types of AI. Can you clarify what it means to reward a computer program? In psychology, rewards are linked to effort and motivation, but a computer or a program is neutral in that respect.

• 37:53Cal Newport?

  Uh huh. We sneak in some AI content, Jesse. You thought you thought you got away from computer science, Cal. But you did not. Bruce brings up a good point. We do use some phrases in AI that sound value laden or sort of anthropomorphized like rewards and you're being rewarded. And we think of rewards, meaning we have a value system, what's good or bad. What this all comes down to in the discussion I was having is just weights and neural networks. Okay, so I talked about two different types of training. I'll do this briefly, but I talked about two different types of training. There was the unsupervised or only semi-supervised.

• 38:32Cal Newport?

  Training, I guess it would be semi-supervised data-driven training, like a language model does, where I said, look, they take a real text that a human wrote. And they'll knock a word out of the text. And they'll, they'll give the model while training it, all of the text up to the word that you knocked out. And then you tell the model, try to predict what word should go there. And the closer it gets to the, the right word, the better. You're kind of like rewarded for that. And the farther it gets, like, no, no, you're off base. You're, you're, you're, you're thinking is off base. The other type of training we talked about was reinforcement learning. Where now, instead of specifically predicting a word, you generate an action, the model generates an action, which is evaluated by some other

• 39:17Cal Newport?

  reward function, you would call it. It says, how good is this action? And if it's good, you, you kind of zap the model like that was good. If it was bad, you zap the model and say that was bad. What's that mean zapping the model, rewarding it? At the core of these models are simulated neurons. Right? So they, they're, they're digital neurons that are just represented by numbers. And the way to imagine it is you have these layers of these simulated neurons that have incoming connections. And each of these connections are labeled with a number. And a signal coming through each of these connections gets multiplied or attenuated by that number and then they they they get combined and an activation function is applied to them to see if that neuron then fires.

• 40:02Cal Newport?

  Not to get too technical, but it's typically a sigmoid function, so you can differentiate it, but don't worry about that. And then if it fires, it has outgoing connections and it those are connected to other neurons. So this types of simulation of neurons is how the thinking happens. Inputs come into the bottom of these networks and they pass through these simulated neurons and at the other end of it, the signals that fire in the final layer are sort of like the outputs. The nice things about simulated neurons is that you can represent them as just tables of numbers and you can simulate them by just multiplying tables of numbers together. And that turns out to be exactly what modern graphic cards, GPU cards do. This is why like we can the the revolution for PlayStations to make our graphic cards faster, made it really fast to simulate really large networks like this.

• 40:47Cal Newport?

  All right, so all the rewarding and zapping and all this stuff I talk about is just tweaking those numbers. So I put some text into the bottom of this network, encoded as signals. They go through the network and the signals at the other end of the network point to a new word. And if that word is like close to what it should be, we we go back through and say, yeah, these numbers are pretty good, but if it's far, like we should tweak these numbers. These numbers weren't very good. Let's try messing around with them a little bit. That's that's super high level, but that's what's happening. Same thing with the reward function for reinforcement learning. If we don't like the action that the network point out, the negative zap is going to change a bunch of the numbers in the network. Be like, let's move away from what however you got to this conclusion, let's kind of move you in a different direction.

• 41:32Cal Newport?

  And then if eventually it starts doing something good, we'll we'll sort of solidify those numbers. The actual mechanisms by which this happens is where you'll hear fancy terms like back propagation. All these are ways of like going through and kind of changing these numbers. So all it is, is rewards and training is you're just tweaking numbers in these tables of numbers to be towards things that are giving better answers and away from things that are giving worse answers. That's what's actually going on there. So there's no affect or value judgments actually happening.

• 42:02Cal Newport?

  All right. What we got next?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Next up is Tanya. My boss regularly goes on 40 minute talking tangents about things not related to work. This is disruptive. My cube is next to her office, so she walks by regularly. I have morning focus blocks, but she always interrupts them. Is there anything I can do to stop these?

• 42:20Cal Newport?

  I'm thinking, what do you think, Jesse? Air horn? Hmm. I empathize, Tanya. That's a, that's a hard situation. You, what you're going to have to do there is you have to differentiate your deep work sessions more definitively. And I'm going to entreat you to be a little bit braver about this. Two options I'm going to suggest. Option number one is the headphone option, right? You kind of tell people, yeah, I like listening to white noise or brown noise. When I'm working on something that requires concentration, it kind of helps in the office, especially the cube environment. So when you have those on, it's kind of indicating to people, I am doing deep work versus when you have those off indicates that you're not. And the message kind of gets there pretty

• 43:04Cal Newport?

  soon, right? Because now the boss has like tap you on the shoulder and you have to take off the headphones. And at first, you know, they'll want to know what those are. And you're like, yeah, when I'm really focusing, this helps me focus and get into a state of focus. And the kind of the message is planted and it becomes a little bit harder for her to say like, I'm just gonna make you take off those headphones just so we can chat. The boss is bored. You have those headphones on, she'll learn to go to the next victim. I shouldn't say victim colleague, but it's going to save you. The other thing you can consider is get in the habit of having a separate location for focus. And I don't mean like, oh, I work somewhere else. Like you might have to be in your office, but get in the habit and you can get approval for this. And people are typically on board with

• 43:45Cal Newport?

  this, reserving a conference room, or maybe there's like another spot in the office. Like, yeah, that's where I go. And I'm really trying to concentrate on something. It helps me to have a different environment. And it just literally takes you away from her. It's also useful for you, though, beyond trying to avoid the talking tangents for your own mind. It gives you these really clear distinctions between am I focusing or not? And you begin to crave like, oh, headphone time or conference room time. And you're, you're more likely to do more of that. You're also going to get more value out of it. Because like, if I'm going through all the trouble of going to a conference room or putting on my headphones, I don't want to open my inbox. Like, why don't I actually just do the work I really want to do? So it's going to make you more effective as well. But yeah, I definitely empathize. Definitely empathize with that.

• 44:29Cal Newport?

  All right.

• 44:31Cal Newport?

  Call.

• 44:33Cal Newport?

  Okay, we got a call. Let's hear it.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  We have two, actually, but we'll play the first one first.

• 44:36Cal Newport?

  Double call, I'm liking it.

• 44:38Speaker 04

  Hi, Cal and Jessie. This is Yvonne from London in the UK. I've been listening for about two years and I found you via Sarah Hart-Unger and Laura Vanderkam. And as someone who works full time outside the home, has little kids, volunteers, runs a side hustle, I've definitely benefited from hearing you talk about time blocking and autopilot scheduling. It's really fun to hear how someone else with lots of different jobs makes it work. And just so that you get a chance to play the theme music, I will mention that I have read Slow Productivity, along with a couple of your earlier books, too. So my question today is about David Allen's book, Getting Things Done. You and Sarah both mentioned him a lot, and I can definitely see the links with full capture. But a lot of that book is about identifying the next actions on every project and keeping a big list or several lists sorted by context.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  So that when you have some time, you can just dip into them. I hear you talk about Trello boards and not context switching, but I don't think I've ever heard you specifically mention a list of next actions. So I'd be interested in your thoughts on that part of the GTD methodology and how you approach that, or something similar. Thanks.

• 45:41Cal Newport?

  Hello, Cal. All right, well, she did mention slow productivity. So do we get the theme? Is that still loaded? Yeah. All right, let's get the right mindset by hearing that slow productivity theme music.

• 45:55Cal Newport?

  Now we're in the mindset. First of all, let's just relax. It's not that big of a deal. GTD. Getting things done. Okay. Next action. So this is a big focus of Allen. He thinks, he has a couple ideas, some of which I really agree with. But one of his big ideas is tasks.

• 46:19Cal Newport?

  Paralyze us when we think about them too abstractly. And really, what tasks actually are is a physical action you can do. And when you reduce some of the next actions, they're much easier to deal with. And work becomes easier because work becomes less about grappling with these big, weird, abstract monsters like "client visit!" And it becomes something much simpler, such as "call the caterer" to get a quote for "client visit." Like, that's something you can actually do. So I do think there is insight into getting to clear, more clarity about like what actual actions are. There's a couple of places I differ with Alan, though.

• 47:03Cal Newport?

  One is, I think a lot of work is not reducible to a concrete short next action. You know, I think a lot of work has to do with longer, deep work sessions. It's think to come up with a business strategy. Write for a couple of hours. That's going to be, you know, two hours among a thousand that eventually it's going to take to finish this book that you're writing. Brainstorm, right? Like, there are certain things that it's not like a concrete action you can just crank through. It's a cognitive activity that's going to take time. I think more in terms of activities sometimes than I do actions, right? Some things are actions, just send this email. Some are activities. Go research this topic and try to come up with like a plan for what to do next.

• 47:44Cal Newport?

  And they resist being sensically broken down into small actions. So I do think it's important to be clear, but I don't obsess about it as much as Alan does. The other thing that I do differently with my Trello boards is, Alan thinks that, if I'm understanding his system properly, if you break down something into next actions, you only have the very next action on your action list. So like, let's go back to our example of "client visit!" He would say, "You would just take the very next thing..." That he would call it a project if it requires more than one task is a project. The very next thing goes on your task list and that might be call the caterer. But you don't want to forget that there's more things to do there.

• 48:29Cal Newport?

  So he would say, then you should have a separate list of projects where you have planned client visit. He calls those stakes in the ground. And then if I'm understanding the system properly, you're supposed to regularly review this list of projects and be like, oh, uh, did I, am I up to speed on this project? Yeah. What, what's the next step that makes sense? Let me go add that over to my task list. There's like a separate process of generating new tasks from your project list, which is separate from your sort of main wheel of progress, which is just trying to grab next actions from your list and execute them. So he really wants you not to have to think about anything but just executing actions unless you're specifically in a planning state where you're looking at your projects or trying to think what's important.

• 49:11Cal Newport?

  I, I think that's a little bit much and it's something that it's too much friction for most people. So like typically for me, if I have a project that's going to require a lot of things, I might have one card for it and I'm gathering all the relevant information and my best understanding of what to do and what information we have on one card. But then I'll highlight on the front of the card, the next thing to do. This is the advantage of a digital world that largely Alan wasn't grappling with in the late nineties, early 2000s when he was writing this. But with tools like Trello, that client visit, I can now have a card for client visit and all the information is on there somewhere. But on the front of the card, it might be like next step is like call caterer. And then, um, I'll usually put in parentheses, like schedule next or S in I'll put.

• 49:55Cal Newport?

  And so like when I put that task where it needs to go and I execute that, I have all the information right there to figure out like what, what the next things are going to be. Or I'll have like three tasks on the front of it, like get through these three next steps or whatever. Um, so I'm a little looser. I'll put a lot of steps can be captured on the same card and sometimes I'll highlight the next one only, and then update what's on the front of the card once I do it. So I'm, I integrate projects more often if they're like medium sized like that into the card itself. Obviously if it's a big project, I'll have a dedicated column for it, you know? Something's going to take a few months, I might have a dedicated column of just tasks for that. But I, I have like projects, my tasks like right there on my list. So, so hopefully that's, that's somewhat clarifying. GTD is a little bit confusing, Jesse.

• 50:38Cal Newport?

  There's a, they have a 16 element flow chart as part of it, like to really learn it. People like the confusingness because I think it makes it seem more likely to them that it's gonna work.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:50Cal Newport?

  The complexity and the specificity seems well-suited to the complexity of their work. But sometimes you have to be a little bit looser.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Do you put the next task in the title of the card? Or just like in the tops parts that you can see?

• 51:03Cal Newport?

  It's not really titles. It's if you look at a Trello card, it's not really titles. It's just like text.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  It's just what you can see before you open the card? Like so the first couple of lines?

• 51:13Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:15Cal Newport?

  Yeah, well, so there's a back. It's called like more information. So there's like, here's what's on the front of the card. It's just a text box.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:22Cal Newport?

  You can actually make it pretty long.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:24Cal Newport?

  And then there's like, if you click on the card and kind of flip it over, then you have more information you can add, text, and you can attach files, you can do checklist, you can do like, there's a lot of stuff you can start to put on the back of the card. So some like Trello cards will have a few things on it on the front and then by always, I always have a note usually like see back for more for next or whatever. But I like to keep information consolidated. If it's a project that's big and small enough that you can kind of keep it all in one place, I like to keep it all in one place.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:57Cal Newport?

  So all that stuff does help, especially if like this caller is talking about you have a lot of roles. All right, do we have a second call this week?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  We do.

• 52:05Cal Newport?

  All right.

• 52:06Speaker 05

  Well, and Jesse, my name is Declan. I'm a computer science student at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. Unfortunately, that is not MIT, that is NJIT. I'm a junior right now and undergraduate and I'm facing a crazy job market. I've applied to countless co-ops and internships without any luck yet. And in the meantime, I know, I think what I should be doing is improving my skills. I want to be so good they can't ignore me, but I'm struggling with the wide variety of options that I have. In school, I'm learning everything from web development to computer networks to data science, AI, to more low-level programming and hardware.

• 52:51Speaker 05

  And I just am having trouble finding one space where I can build true depth. I'm graduating in May of next year and I fear feeling unsure of what direction to head in when I get there. So I guess my question is, how would you recommend choosing a technical focus and building valuable skills if you were in my position? What strategies should I use to create the deep work environment necessary to gain traction in such a broad and competitive field? Given your credentials, I couldn't imagine a better person to ask this question. So I thank you in advance for any advice that you could offer me.

• 53:27Cal Newport?

  I remember NJIT. I'm a New Jersey native myself. Here's a good question. I'm glad you're asking it because typically people don't confront this question until they're on the job market and it's too late. I would say right now, go look at job listings. Go look at what are the job listings that most catch your attention, the companies you would most want to work for, and say, what are they looking for? What experiences are they asking for? Then I would go to the graduating class, perfect time to do this, and find the students in the major who are taking impressive jobs. And say, hey, can I take you out for like a beer or a coffee or whatever? I want to find out, like, why did you get this job? Like, what was the market like?

• 54:12Cal Newport?

  What helped you stand out? And you're going to find out there, like, what skills are important? You'll find out, like, the importance of grades. Maybe they're going to say, no, no, here's what you need to do. You need to, like, start contributing to some open source projects and show off your skills and X, Y, and Z. Get evidence-based information and then focus like a laser beam on improving those skills. You also want to get good grades. I mean, the ship is somewhat sailed, you only have one year left, but do as well as you can. Keep your schedule simple, just focus on the CS. Give yourself more than enough time to crush the classes. Having good grades does matter. That's an important signal that gets past various screens at some of these institutions. But what you really need is, like, what are the specific skills that people that I want to work for who are hiring for my school? What skills are they looking for? Let me choose one of those to get good at.

• 54:54Cal Newport?

  Let me also talk to grads who got good jobs and say, what was it that mattered most? And then focus like a laser beam on exactly that. So you're asking the right question, which is, what is valuable? What you're not doing, and I appreciate this, is you're not writing a story about what you want to be valuable. You're not saying, "Look, I want my basic programming or my scratch games to be the thing that matters." Like, no, what is it? Is it being able to work with like Python-based AI libraries? Or is it doing like 3D graphic design? Or is it doing assembly language coding? Or you know, who knows, right? You gotta see what people are looking for right now. Build a skill that's valuable. Have a strong pitch as you get on the market. If your science is a great field to be in,

• 55:40Cal Newport?

  if you build the right skills, you'll find the job. But also, keep in mind, you don't need the dream job out of school. You just want to get in the industry. That's when you can really begin to become so good. When you see like what's valuable in the marketplace, and you do that, that's when you begin laddering up and gaining autonomy and career capital. So you've got to find somewhere and really start shipping. But in the meantime, investigate what's valuable for the people hiring from your school. Do not, uh, do not write a story that you want to be true. There's a rough job market. Tech industry is, everyone's a little bit hazy right now. There's a rough job. When I graduated grad school, this was right during the financial crisis. I got my doctor in 2009. And so we all had to go

• 56:24Cal Newport?

  become post-docs. No one was hiring. And so it was like, we all became post-docs for a couple of years, just did more research. Like, we basically just, and then it worked out fine. And then people like me who did that, we just got tenure early. Like, we just moved, we just had a two-year, like a head start when we got started with our faculty jobs or whatever. But I remember that. It was a rough job. Even coming out of MIT with like a pretty good H-index, it was like, no one could hire. Everyone was paralyzed. All the universities were paralyzed. The, the tech companies were paralyzed. The economy was in freefall. So we had to kind of just hang out for a little bit longer in Boston. So I feel it. It happens. But you know, markets get better. So good, best job you can, and then start moving once you're there. All right. So I think we have a good

• 57:06Cal Newport?

  final segment where I'm going to react to something. But first, let's briefly hear from another sponsor.

• 57:16Speaker 03

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• 57:44Cal Newport?

  I'll talk about our friends at Kinsta. I'm a WordPress guy. My digital life has been run on WordPress sites since the very beginning, the very original calnewport.com that's on WordPress. It's remained on WordPress. The deeplife.com is on WordPress. I spend a lot of time with WordPress. Jesse spends a lot of time wrangling with WordPress. So we know the quality of your WordPress host really can make a difference if you're doing almost anything in the digital world. This is why I want to talk about Kinsta's managed hosting program. I think it is one of the best that is out there. They have bundled up all of the essentials you need to make your WordPress sites stress-free.

• 58:26Cal Newport?

  And just as important, they can do this with speeds that will wow your visitors. You throw in their enterprise level security and a dashboard so intuitive, you'll wonder why you ever suffered through all of these primitive WordPress hosts in the past. They also have 24/7/365 support. You can talk to real humans and not AI chatbots to get your questions answered. Kinsta doesn't just host websites. Again, I want to focus on the speed. This is the thing that I really think is impressive. There's an art to hosting a very fast WordPress site. They do it really well. And you get the reliability and security and the support. They have this cool thing set up as well to make it easy for you

• 59:11Cal Newport?

  to migrate over to their hosting. They'll migrate your entire website for free. And they've got a 30-day money-back guarantee. So just imagine, you know, your site now running at warp speed by just switching to Kinsta. You can choose from 37 different data centers to speed up your website by up to 200%. And again, if you need help. You can talk to someone there 24/7, not a chatbot, real support. Over 120,000 businesses trust Kinsta with their WordPress websites, and I see why. Hosting matters in WordPress, and they really are top of their game. So if you're tired of being your own hosting support team, switch to Kinsta and get your first month free. And don't worry about the move. They'll handle the migration for you. No tech expertise required.

• 59:56Cal Newport?

  Just visit kinsta.com/deepquestions to get started. That's K-I-N-S-T-A dot com slash deep questions. I also want to talk about our friends at Udacity. We were just talking about in a recent question, the difficulty of the job market out there, especially right now. What do you need to survive in the current job market? Skills. You have to be able to build up skills. You have to pivot and say, here's what is valuable right now. How do I learn that? How do I get up to that speed? How do I make myself more valuable? This is where Udacity enters the scene because their courses, their online learning courses can help you learn the skills that command the high salaries. We're talking AI, we're talking data, we're talking programming and more.

• 1:00:38Cal Newport?

  Instead of just looking for random YouTube videos or prompting ChatGPT for answers, Udacity removes the guesswork so you can learn what you need to know and nothing that you don't. These courses are fantastic. 87% of Udacity graduates say that they achieved their enrollment goal by taking these courses. Both Jesse and I have used Udacity. I actually went through a couple game programming courses with my son. We really enjoyed it. Jesse, you did something with marketing.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I took a marketing class.

• 1:01:10Cal Newport?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a great platform. Yeah, it works well. The videos, you have the exercises, you know, you move through in this ordered way. There's tons of options for learning tech skills, but only Udacity is consistently ranked as a top skill development platform because it actually works. They've been at this for a long time and they've honed in on how do we make courses that actually work? You're going to have real world projects. You can have human experts that grade what you're doing. Udacity is how you are going to get better at things that matters. And because Udacity has been around long enough. Recruiters understand a Udacity certification. They'll take notice of that. They know what that means, that it's not something achieved lightly. So for a better job, better salary, better skills, you should check out Udacity today.

• 1:01:53Cal Newport?

  The tech field is always evolving and you should be too. You can try Udacity risk-free for seven days. Head to udacity.com/deep and use code DEEP to get 40% off your order. Once again, that's udacity.com/deep for 40% off. And make sure you use my promo code DEEP so they know I sent you. All right, just let's move on to our final segment. All right, so we're going to do a react segment. Is that right?

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Cal Newport?

  All right, what am I reacting to this week? What has the internet dealt up to us for me to take a look at?

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Craig Maude was on Tim Ferriss's show last month and he was talking about his epic walks in Japan where he-

• 1:02:33Cal Newport?

  Craig Maude, the writer who walks.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Cal Newport?

  Yeah, I know who this is, yeah.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  So I'll play a clip.

• 1:02:39Cal Newport?

  All right, it's from the Tim Ferriss Show?

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:02:40Cal Newport?

  Okay.

• 1:02:41Speaker 06

  The news, you're not allowed to read the news. There's no social media. And by you, that means Craig. That means, yeah, if you're walking or if I'm walking, I'll always talk about me in the third person. So you can't read the news, you can't do social media, you can't touch any of that stuff. Basically, the idea is to just be radically present, radically, radically present, and radically cultivate like a boredom, an incredible sense of boredom and never teleport. I mean, I think one of the weirdest things about being a contemporary human is like, first of all, we're never bored because we always have this stupid Black Mirror slab in our pocket, right? That's like always distracting us with some other dopamine hit. And we're constantly teleporting. If there's any millimeter of friction, if there's one millisecond of friction in your life,

• 1:03:24Speaker 06

  you just pull that stupid thing out and start sucking at the teat of whatever information, you know, cow is in there, right?

• 1:03:32Cal Newport?

  All right, I love this, first of all. Craig is an interesting guy. From what I know about him, he's a writer, he's based in Japan, and he does these epic walks.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, like very long, for like 30 days.

• 1:03:42Cal Newport?

  Yeah, but I didn't know this detail about it, that he's really focused on being present during the walk. He's not on his phone, he's, you know, not looking at social media.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  He's got a script for his phone that he dictates into, so he can't open other things. He just has the map function too.

• 1:04:00Cal Newport?

  So that's how, so he can take notes.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  He could take notes by like scripting in and like he's got this, he reads that freedom software too.

• 1:04:07Cal Newport?

  I love, I've been thinking about this exact topic. You didn't know it Jesse, but for my deep life book. So I'm writing, so I've been looking at some other things similar to this. Let me, let me set the context here. So I'm writing, the first part of the book is about getting your act together before you try to change your life. Okay. So I'm in a chapter in there about time management. And in time management, I'm like, I'm not going to give you a super detailed system you have to follow. I'm going to give you like, here's three questions. You need some sort of answers for these three questions. And the last of those questions is sort of, why are you doing it? And it's about like having some way of thinking systematically about workload. As I'm talking about like, how do you think more systematically about your workload and prevent it from getting

• 1:04:51Cal Newport?

  out of control? One of the ideas I was just wrangling with like yesterday, thinking about this book was as you build more of an appreciation for quote unquote, doing nothing, like I really enjoy just like quiet and presence. It gives you a back pressure against busyness because busyness feels like it's encroaching on that thing you really like. And so I have this theory that we've lost our taste for presence, for doing nothing, the, the, the long walk and just enjoying what's around us. And because we've lost our taste for that, because we fill that time with digital distractions, we lose to back pressure against

• 1:05:34Cal Newport?

  busyness. We just get busier, you know, but yeah, why not? Why not do more things? Because we don't, we don't, we're not picturing what's being lost because we don't do that anymore. So I love this idea of trying to purposely just be out there and be present. I was, it's relevant to my recent trip to Boston. Because we were, you know, going through some of my old neighborhoods. And when I lived on Beacon Hill, I would walk every morning across the Longfellow Bridge, the campus on MIT. And I would force myself, I'd have my dog with me often. I would force myself to just be like Craig Maude on that walk. I have to just observe like what's going on, what's happening, like the buds are starting on this tree, what's happening with the ice on the Charles? How is this looking today? I was doing, I was on a whole thorough kick

• 1:06:18Cal Newport?

  at the time. So really like observing the world around me. And I found it very centering, you know, just to be present and really understand every day and how the weather changed from day to day. And then I would run home across the Harvard Bridge, the Mass Ave Bridge, and come back on the Espionage. And you're like really plugged into like the weather and the seasons and exactly what was happening. And you would appreciate what was new. And when you get the first warm day, like we were at Boston for the first warm day last week, you would really appreciate that. And, and all this stuff, Matt, where the sun was at different types of the day. And I found that, that was really nice. And I miss a lot of that. So I think what Craig is doing there is really interesting. Someone else who had this instinct with John Muir, you know, the famous naturalist, little known part of his story, I might, I might cover this in more detail, just reading about it

• 1:07:00Cal Newport?

  this morning, but just to say it briefly, it's interesting part of his story where he was mechanically minded and got a job in Indianapolis, working on contraptions, I don't know, some sort of machining job or whatever. He's like, I like this. I'm good at this. What I want to do. I'm good at building things. I'm going to like work in one of these jobs. He got a, an owl, A W L in his eye. And he went blind for a while. His other eye went like sympathetically blind. And when he came out of this blindness, he was like sort of nuts to this. The world is to, you know, I'm not going to keep putting off experiencing the world. And he took a train. He headed east to something like Jefferson,

• 1:07:43Cal Newport?

  Missouri, maybe, and then like walked from there to Florida. So he went on this epic walk, basically like across the whole. It's like, I'm just going to walk and just encounter the world. And it kind of kicked off this new life as a naturalist where his whole life was about just, he could see again. And he's like, and I want to see. And so in some sense, I think for a lot of people, Coming out of a world connected to that smartphone at every moment of distraction is like John Muir getting his vision back in his left eye. It's like, oh, I can see again and the world is really interesting. So I love this idea. More time away from your phone, more time non teleporting into other worlds or reacting to other people's minds, more time just reacting to the world around you. It's what we are wired to do. And when you go back to it, it's like going home. Like this feels really natural in a way

• 1:08:27Cal Newport?

  that just staring at that screen all the time didn't. So I like that. I'll have to listen to this whole episode now.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's two of them, actually.

• 1:08:33Cal Newport?

  Excellent. It was two parts.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:35Cal Newport?

  Well, Ferris loves Japan, too.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were speaking Japanese.

• 1:08:39Cal Newport?

  Yeah, and Maude lives in Japan, so that makes sense. Yeah. All right. Well, speaking of walking, I'm going to walk on out of the studio, but thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with another episode. And until then, as always, stay deep.

• 1:08:53Cal Newport?

  Hi, it's Cal here. One more thing before you go. If you like the Deep Questions Podcast, you will love my email newsletter, which you can sign up for at calnewport.com. Each week I send out a new essay about the theory or practice of living deeply. I've been writing this newsletter since 2007, and over 70,000 subscribers get it sent to their inboxes each week. So if you are serious about resisting the forces of distraction and shallowness that afflict our world, you gotta sign up for my newsletter at calnewport.com and get some deep wisdom delivered to your inbox each week.