Kristin Scott Thomas – ‘Having children allowed me to see where I’d gone wrong’

In a career spanning four decades, Dame Kristin Scott Thomas has become one of Britain’s most celebrated actors: Four Weddings and a Funeral, The English Patient, The Horse Whisperer, Tell No One and Slow Horses, alongside acclaimed stage work including her Olivier‑winning performance in The Seagull. Yet her path was far from straightforward: discouraged at drama school, she moved to Paris as an au pair and rebuilt her training from scratch. Her childhood had already been shaped by profound loss after the deaths of her father and stepfather in near‑identical accidents. She has now channelled these experiences into her directorial debut, My Mother’s Wedding, which she also co‑wrote and stars in, alongside Scarlett Johansson, Sienna Miller and Emily Beecham. We talk about her early grief, the emotional armour she built as a teenager, the chaotic experience of filming with Prince, making My Mother’s Wedding, the power of women writing women, her unforgettable Fleabag monologue and the joy and clarity she has found in her 60s. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 03:15 Reclaiming a Tragic Narrative 04:59 Joy in her 60s 06:22 Co Writing With Her Husband 07:03 Animation and Childhood Memory 09:07 Casting and Creative Reunions 12:23 Failure One: Prince Film Debut 17:06 Fame Theater and Radical Roles 24:09 Under the Cherry Moon Lessons 25:28 Failure Two: Teenage Grief 26:24 Childhood Losses 27:58 Eldest Sibling Burden 28:37 Acting Through Sadness 29:59 English Patient Reflections 33:19 Four Weddings Role 36:39 Therapy and Healing 43:41 Grief Advice and Faith 45:45 Football and Identity 49:16 Aging and Gratitude 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: “I wanted to take my past and make it into something positive.” “If people enjoy what you do, it’s not bad.” “Having children allowed me to see where I’d gone wrong and where I was beating myself up.” 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Kristin’s directorial debut, My Mother’s Wedding, is now available in UK cinemas and streaming platforms such as Amazon Prime and Apple TV Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Rosamund Pike - this episode explores how her career has resisted tidy narratives, how she’s navigated fame without reading reviews for 25 years and how her so‑called “failures” – not getting married, struggling with fear, raising two sons while working, even a disastrous attempt at cooking a rabbit – have shaped her. It’s ultimately about a woman interrogating identity, courage and the stories she tells herself:http://swap.fm/l/tePOA4HZ2PoaBBwudnv7 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Elizabeth and Kristin answer listener questions in our subscriber series: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Well, I was very good at holding it in, at not letting anybody, don't cry in class, don't do this, don't do that, don't keep it all back, be the funniest in the room. Having children allowed me to see where I'd gone wrong, and where I was beating myself up, and where I was, you know, doing unnecessary sabotage and damaging. And of course, because I'd been used to fathers dying, and I'd kind of grown up with it and got over it, and, as I said, kept going, grieving for my mother was just like being run over by a tank.

• 0:39Elizabeth Day?

  This episode of How To Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that looks beneath the hood of success to see the failure that lies underneath. Before we get started on this episode, please do remember to subscribe, follow and like so that you never miss a single conversation.

• 1:01Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you

• 1:44Elizabeth Day?

  can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the small The ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me.

• 2:27Elizabeth Day?

  Ernesta makes designer-quality rugs custom-cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home. I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing, and Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernesta.com and order five samples for only $10, and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernesta.com. We all have our favourite Dame Kristin Scott Thomas performance. It might be the brittle but heart-sore Fiona in Four Weddings and a Funeral,

• 3:11Elizabeth Day?

  or the married woman who experiences a sexual awakening with an enigmatic Hungarian count in The English Patient. Perhaps it's her turn in The Horse Whisperer, which she acted in despite being terrified of horses. Or her role as the businesswoman in Fleabag, who delivers a memorable monologue about women being born with pain built in. Maybe it's one of the riveting performances Scott Thomas has delivered in fluent French, the lead in Thriller Tell No One, or the doctor released from prison in I've Loved You So Long. Or it's the Icy Diana Taverner, deputy director general of MI5 in Apple TV's Slow Horses. Then there are her stage performances.

• 3:55Elizabeth Day?

  She won an Olivier for her turn in The Seagull in 2008. It's a hugely successful career, and yet it almost ended in failure when teachers at the Central School of Speech and Drama discouraged her from acting, improbably saying that she lacked talent. Instead, she moved to Paris as an au pair and restarted her training there. Her childhood had been beset by both happiness and tragedy. Her father, a navy pilot, was killed in a plane crash when she was five. Her mother, left widowed at 28 with four children, remarried one of his colleagues, only for him to die in a near-identical accident when Scott Thomas was 11.

• 4:38Elizabeth Day?

  It's an unimaginable experience she has used as inspiration for her directorial film debut, My Mother's Wedding, in which she also co-stars and which she co-wrote with her second husband, John Micklefway. The film tells the story of three sisters who return home for the wedding of their twice widowed mother. In bringing it to the screen, Scott Thomas says, "I wanted to take my past and make it into something positive, and to show that, yes, catastrophe at a young age can be disastrous, and sometimes it just makes you who you are." Dame Kristin Scott Thomas, welcome to How to Fail.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 5:19Elizabeth Day?

  It's so lovely to meet you in this studio, and I'm also aware that writing a potted introduction like that can be rather emotionally bruising, I imagine, to hear again and again and again your life story sort of rehashed for the purposes of journalism.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  When you hear it over and over again, as I have, because I've been doing this a very, very long time, it does, it's so boring. Everybody knows that, but actually lots of people don't. And then when they do find out the sort of, the kind of catastrophic element, they're often quite kind of flummoxed by it. And I guess that's why it's in all the articles, because people, people can't quite believe what they're reading.

• 6:10Elizabeth Day?

  The film that you have directed, starred in and written, is that an attempt to reclaim that narrative for yourself?

• 6:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely, spot on. I just, I just got, yeah, a bit fed up with seeing that every single profile was, always had a little paragraph about my tragic childhood. And I thought, oh, hang on, it wasn't that bad. And then, you know, so looking at it, you think, well, actually, that is quite, quite serious.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Serious damage could be caused by that. And then I had to think and I and I thought that that perhaps could be shared and understood by lots of other people and turn it into a a story with a with a kind of positive tilt to it, rather than just label, under the label tragic.

• 6:55Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, and it is a very joyous film.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so.

• 6:59Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel more joyous now at the age of sixty five, which I can't believe looking at you, but do you feel more joyous now than you did ten, twenty years ago?

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Uh, yes.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  No, I do, I do. And and I think it's, I think it's because, um, well, I I found, I found love, which is a very lovely thing to happen. Um, and I've also, I've also managed to kind of complete things in my career. Um, and when I say that, I mean, I've played, uh, I sort of done tragedy now. I feel I've sort of done it and I've emptied the bag. There's no more left. Um, and I think I did that when I did Electra. I think that's what I thought, ah, don't have to do that ever again. I don't have to weep for a dead

• 7:57Speaker 00

  father ever again. Um, and so that was, that was quite healing, I would say, playing that. So there's a lot of stuff and, you know, time and lots of work. I've done lots of work. I've never made a secret of that. I've done lots of work with therapists and people, you know, psychoanalysts to um, keep myself on track and it's worked.

• 8:23Elizabeth Day?

  You mentioned finding love and you co-wrote, as I said in the introduction, this film with your husband. What was it like working together?

• 8:31Speaker 00

  It was great. It was really fun. Because we sort of complement each other, he is a very, he manages to hold a lot of things in place at the same time, whereas I'm totally scatterbrained and find that quite difficult. But I'm much better at dialogue than he is. I could hear the voices, but he could sort of build a structure. So anyway, I could hear the voices. I don't know whether that's a good thing to admit to. I hear voices.

• 9:01Elizabeth Day?

  You take that to the psychoanalyst.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 9:04Elizabeth Day?

  There are so many things I want to ask you about the film. One is the decision, which I found a very moving one, to use animation. When there is one sister in particular, played by Scarlett Johansson, who has these memories, and those memories are shown through animation. Why did you choose to use that form?

• 9:23Speaker 00

  The reason I chose animation was because my memories, that, you know, I was five, I'm not sure how true they were. And so the lovely thing about animation and the drawing, and particularly that technique, which is painting on glass, which is why it has that sort of quivering feel, that gives a sort of looseness to it. And it's sort of not precise, and it's not, it's not exactly real, and none of the characters have eyes, and that's because they're not alive. And I just felt that that was the right, right

• 10:01Speaker 00

  way to go. I think you can be very emotional with, it really, it really is, can be piercing animation. You can get a lot done with a drawing.

• 10:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Did playing the mother character

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:21Elizabeth Day?

  give you new insights into how you feel your mother might have felt?

• 10:26Speaker 00

  Gosh, I'd never thought about that.

• 10:30Speaker 00

  No, not really. I mean, they're so, so different. I mean, it certainly gave me insights into how I was as a mother, but it, it, it, what the ideal, I think she's the ideal mother, really. I think she's fantastic.

• 10:45Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  But, yeah, I mean, it was just about, it was, funnily enough, the scene that everybody says, what a wonderful scene, because you really, that was written by my husband.

• 10:57Elizabeth Day?

  Very generous of you to say that. Is that the one with the children line?

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:03Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  We won't, we won't give away too much.

• 11:05Elizabeth Day?

  But it's very, very good. And you got a phenomenal cast together. So The Sisters are played by Scarlett Johansson, Sienna Miller and Emily Beecham.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  I know, it's unbelievable.

• 11:16Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, how terrific.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  And Frida Pinto and, you know.

• 11:20Elizabeth Day?

  It's unbelievable. And James Fleet.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  I love James Fleet.

• 11:23Elizabeth Day?

  Who you're reunited with.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  I know, again.

• 11:25Elizabeth Day?

  Wait, so you, did you, was your first?

• 11:27Speaker 00

  I've been married to him before, you know.

• 11:28Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so you, you first professionally worked together on For Weddings and a Funeral.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:33Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  That's where we met.

• 11:34Elizabeth Day?

  And how many times have you been reunited since?

• 11:36Speaker 00

  I think that was only the third time we've worked together, but we were, we were married in The Three Sisters, Chekhov's Three Sisters. So, you know, we've been down that road.

• 11:48Elizabeth Day?

  And is it nice being reunited with someone who's known you for so long?

• 11:51Speaker 00

  It is, it is. I mean, we're, we're not friends outside. I mean, we're always pleased to see each other, but, you know, I don't, I don't have very many friends in this business, actually, funnily enough.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  But it's really nice to be able to, there's something that happens when there's somebody you work really well with, and I work really well with James, is that you just, they bring out the best in you and you can sort of relax and, and it just sort of clicks and you don't, you, you don't have to feel, you have to pull, pull the scene in any one direction, it just has its own life. And that's, that's a really fun thing to happen. And that doesn't happen all the time, you know, it's, it can happen, when it does, it's great, but it's not all the time.

• 12:35Elizabeth Day?

  Where are your, where are most of your friends from, if they're not from the business?

• 12:38Speaker 00

  I don't know. I keep trying to think, do I have any friends? Yes, I do. No, a lot of them are in filmmaking, but not necessarily actors. But there are actors that I love and I'm always really happy to find again. But because we live such nomadic lives, it's quite difficult.

• 12:56Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your failures. There's so much more I could ask you about, but let's let's hope they come up as part of your failures. Your first failure is your first ever film.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:05Elizabeth Day?

  With Prince.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  I know. Can you believe that was a failure? It was. It was awful. Oh.

• 13:13Elizabeth Day?

  So at this time.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:14Elizabeth Day?

  You've gone to France as an au pair. You've re-kicked started your training as an actress. You get a part in a French play.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:23Elizabeth Day?

  And that gets you an audition.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  That. No, the French play, by the way, was a huge hit, even though it was tiny, tiny, tiny. But I got my first ever proper review, which was the best review I've ever had. And it was tragic that it should be my first. Anyway, and then the reviews come for the film that we do with Prince. And they were not good. But I so I was doing this, this, this show in a field in Burgundy and creating a bit of a fuss. And it was all brilliant, riding high. And I get called up to go and do this audition. And it's they're shooting in France, and they need local actresses to play, you know, bit parts,

• 14:08Speaker 00

  girlfriends, girlfriend one, girlfriend two. And so I think, great, that's fantastic. Trot along, go to this amazing hotel called the Crillon in Paris, which is just beautiful. I'd never been anywhere like that, never even been in a hotel, actually, to be honest. And I walk into this thing and do my interview and my interview, my audition. And because the roles were so short, they gave you the lead, you know, to read, because it was only like exclamations, oh, Mary, you look great, you know, this sort of thing. And so there was no sort of content, there wasn't enough content to find out whether you were any good. So they gave us this, this, this, this other scene. And I did it. And there was

• 14:50Speaker 00

  a bit of a kerfuffle behind the camera. And I was getting a bit worried. And somebody poked their head up and said, would you like to audition for the lead? Yeah, I would, I'd love to. So off I go and I do that. And as I said, I'd never been in a hotel before. I got asked which hotel I wanted to stay in in Nice. I met Prince, that was incredible.

• 15:12Elizabeth Day?

  What's that like, meeting Prince for the first time?

• 15:14Speaker 00

  You know, I was a massive fan. It was, what, nineteen eighty-two, eighty-three, something like this? And I was listening to the record of that summer on my Walkman, you know, listening to it non-stop on a loop. And just loved it. And there I was with this man. And hello, how do you do? And there were three other men around him. Already men for me was something a bit scary, to be honest. But like, and then there was this person dressed and it was really him. I'd never met anyone as famous in my life. You know, I really was sort of gobsmacked. But, you know, you have to keep going.

• 15:57Speaker 00

  So you put one foot in front of the other and you go and sit on that chair and you're sort of a little bit trembly and the rest of it. And then he blew it because he was also a bit nervous. And he, because we were kids, you know, I was twenty-three. He was twenty-four. And he makes, and it was in a very impressive dining room. And he goes, he makes some sort of movement with his hand. And this bread roll, this nice crispy bread roll goes skedaddling across this polished floor. Anyway, it was all a bit, bit odd. And then the next day, Nice, hair, makeup, you know, the whole shebang and costumes and dancing lessons. And I just really couldn't believe, could not believe it was happening to me.

• 16:39Elizabeth Day?

  Was he mesmeric in his charisma?

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I'm not sure it was him or whether it was just the thing around him, which is this monster of fame and talent and, and people protecting him like crazy. So it was, it was a very weird vibe where everyone's laughing hilariously at anything vaguely funny he could say. And everybody's sort of making sure everything's all right all the time. And it's, it's a weird energy around people who are incredibly talented and precious because they bring in a lot of money.

• 17:14Elizabeth Day?

  Did it teach you how to deal with fame when later you became famous?

• 17:21Speaker 00

  No, no, that did not shed any light on that, on my particular brand of fame. That was out there. I mean, it was, you know, extraterrestrial.

• 17:34Elizabeth Day?

  It wasn't anything that, I've never encountered anything like that since, really. I want to come back to Prince and Under the Cherry Moon, the movie that you did together. But I'm intrigued as to your take on what fame is and whether you find it boring.

• 17:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, do I think it's boring?

• 17:57Speaker 00

  No, I think, I mean, I think it's actually, actually, the older I get, and I think this is what you were talking about in the beginning, is am I happier? Yeah, definitely.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  Is that I've come to terms with the fact that if people enjoy what you do, it's not bad.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  I think there's some sort of old bit of bad Catholicism in me or something that makes me think that wanting people to like me is a bad thing, or wanting people to enjoy, or I'm showing off or something. There's always something sort of a bit iffy about that for me, or was. But now I've come to terms with the fact that if people enjoy it, it's okay. It's good. It's nice.

• 18:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  And I think that's because I do more theatre, so I understand more what it's like to be in a room with people who've bought a ticket for that night. They've got this contract with the theatre. They're going to come and they're going to have a really good time. And they might cry, they might laugh, they might, you know, get bored, but they are, they've decided to come. And they've decided to come for a reason. And often you are part of that reason.

• 19:06Elizabeth Day?

  Is there a character in the lexicon of characters that you've played that feels to you that it speaks most to your soul?

• 19:16Speaker 00

  Well, if I tell you that when I played Irina Arkardina in The Seagull, my children said, oh, well, no acting required then.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  But I did love Bridget in, I think she was called Bridget, in Phoebe's piece.

• 19:37Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, Fleabag, yes, yes.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Love that.

• 19:40Elizabeth Day?

  Belinda.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Belinda, not Bridget. Bridget, someone else. Bridget was in, Belinda, Bridget. Bridget was in Salmon Fishing in the Yemen. I loved playing Bridget.

• 19:51Elizabeth Day?

  Belinda, I know I'm getting off on a tangent, but we just have to talk about Belinda because that monologue was so seismic.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Brilliant, isn't it?

• 19:58Elizabeth Day?

  For so many women. And Phoebe was my first ever guest on How to Fail FM. She's a very good friend of mine. And I'm so grateful to you for doing that justice. And it felt so radical at the time.

• 20:15Elizabeth Day?

  Did it, did it also reflect your experience of getting older as a woman in terms of the radicalization of it?

• 20:20Speaker 00

  I can't even tell you how this thing, when it arrived in my letterbox, it was just like, oh, this is, at last, someone is saying these things. Thank God.

• 20:30Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  Loved it. And there was no way I wasn't going to do that, you know. Yes.

• 20:36Elizabeth Day?

  You also recently read an extract from Gisele Pellicle's autobiography. And you've said some very interesting things about male critics not really understanding the depth or nuance of the female experience. Do you feel that you've become more radical as a...

• 20:57Speaker 00

  I don't, I, can I just make a little correction about that? It's not that male critics don't understand, is that we need more women playwrights so that it becomes more normal for women to stand up on stage and talk about our bodies, about our experience of childbirth, about our experience of menopause, about our experience of life, full stop. So I just think that, I don't know how many, what the, what the, what the ratio is male to female, but I think that that... That argument was misconstrued.

• 21:31Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  There we are.

• 21:32Elizabeth Day?

  Well, thank you for clarifying. But I definitely feel that I'm becoming more radical as I get older.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  More impatient. I just get impatient with the... I'm just impatient with why are we still doing this? Why is this not... Why is there only... I mean, hopefully it's changed. But I read somewhere that there was 4% of medical research goes into women's bodies. Yeah, I mean, it is extraordinary.

• 21:57Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 21:57Speaker 00

  Extraordinary.

• 21:58Elizabeth Day?

  Mm hmm. Yes. I mean, this is...

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Just stuff like that.

• 22:02Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. It's deeply irritating. And that sense of shame that we were touching upon is so often internalized by women when they go through some sort of medical experience that is so underfunded and under-researched. And in my personal experience, what I bring to that is the experience of miscarriage or infertility, which I went through. And there's so little money and research devoted to that. I mean, that's changing, but I think you're completely right that it adds to this feeling that we have to be silent about what we go through.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, we haven't been very silent, thanks to people like Phoebe and thanks to women writing plays. You know, it all comes back to we just need to be able to say more. Gisele Pelliko, what she did writing that book is fantastic. Thank you, Gisele, for writing that. You know, it takes a lot of guts to do that.

• 22:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I mean, I don't really think of myself as being, you know, a campaigner or anything like that. I just, sometimes I just lose patience with it.

• 23:10Elizabeth Day?

  Your early performances, and this was one of the things that lazy journalists like me used to say, were notable for their restraint. Do you think that that was a reaction to being too much in Under the Cherry Moon?

• 23:28Elizabeth Day?

  And I mean restrained in a good way.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  No, I think, no, I think that, I don't think it was, it wasn't consciously that anyway, but it was just doing things the way I wanted them, I wanted to do them, and it seemed to work. So if I wanted to be restrained, I could be, and they seemed to like it, so I'll go and be restrained again. I mean, lately, my performances have got a lot more extravagant.

• 23:53Elizabeth Day?

  Are you enjoying Diana Tavanna?

• 23:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:57Elizabeth Day?

  Why?

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Well, you've watched it, haven't you?

• 24:01Elizabeth Day?

  Of course.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  Well, there you go.

• 24:03Elizabeth Day?

  Well, part of what I value about Diana Tavanna in Slow Horses is the lack of private life. We don't know that much about her.

• 24:11Speaker 00

  Nothing at all. It's all top secret.

• 24:14Elizabeth Day?

  Which is really important, as playing a female character.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  To have some sort of background.

• 24:19Elizabeth Day?

  No, it's, it's actually important not, not to, in a way. It's a sort of privilege that has been afforded to male characters.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  That we don't care whether she's got, you know, six kids at home and has to go do the shopping, and yeah.

• 24:30Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  No, it is, it's true. It's, it is, that is one thing. I'd never thought of that, and I think you're quite right. It's a good point.

• 24:36Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, thank you. Let's just end the interview there. Let's quit while we're at. Have you ever re-watched Under the Cherry Moon?

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Well, only snippets of it, because it really does, but, you know, the soundtrack is amazing, the photography's amazing. Some bits are acting, you know, Francesca Anis is acting her socks off, and she's brilliant. It's, you know, it is what it is. It was an 80s film in the period of Dynasty and the rest of it, and I'm very grateful for it, to be honest, because it taught me a lot. I mean, literally, I did not know you had to do the same thing twice, when they have a wide shot and a close shot. I didn't know it, and you, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  There was one scene where I was being kissed and it was in a, I don't know where it was, racetrack or something, lying on the ground and I had my hands by my side because it never happened to me before. You know, I'm lying there, waiting, and then the kiss happens and the script, very nice script supervisor comes over to me and said, Kristin, could you just move a bit, you look a bit stiff. Lying there, waiting, oh bless.

• 25:59Elizabeth Day?

  Oh.

• 26:03Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your second failure, it's a big one.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  I know.

• 26:08Elizabeth Day?

  But thank you for talking about it because so many people will get a lot from this, I think, and it's your failure to deal with grief as a young teenager.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Um, yes. Well, I think that that is a failure that needn't have been a failure, an unnecessary failure. It wasn't really me sabotaging anything, it was because there was, at the time, this was in the 1970s, there really wasn't any kind of pastoral care or there wasn't any therapy or anything like that, counselling, call it what you like. And there I was, a small girl, um, made, you know, orphaned, not, my, but, you know,

• 27:01Speaker 00

  my father died when I was nearly, when I was five and a half. And then when I was 11 and I'd just started a new school, it happens again. And that was much more than anybody could really handle, I think, by themselves. Um, and I know terrible things, believe me, I know, no one was doing it to me on purpose. It wasn't cruelty, it wasn't, it was just like fate.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  So I I know that it's but everybody deals with their own stuff differently. But I wasn't able to

• 27:41Speaker 00

  get over that really for a very, very long time. And it needn't have been the case. So it wasn't genuinely my failure, I suppose. But I do wish that I had, I do wish that I'd been able to

• 27:57Speaker 00

  at least look at it as a young girl. And in fact, I didn't really do anything about it until I was thirty. And by then I had two children. And having children allowed me to see where I'd gone wrong and where I was beating myself up and where I was, you know, doing

• 28:19Speaker 00

  unnecessary sabotage and damaging.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Just because of this enormous sadness that had never been allowed out.

• 28:30Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry you went through that.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 28:33Elizabeth Day?

  Was there part of you as the eldest child that felt a responsibility?

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Oh, definitely, definitely. And that's what I try to put in in the film. I try and get that across with the character played by Scarlett, the eldest sister Catherine. This idea that I'm in charge and I have to make sure everyone's happy and everyone does that. And and that was definitely, definitely because there were five of us. So I definitely felt a sort of stiff upper lip. Come on. And I think that's why I get this sort of bossy. I'm so good at being bossy is because I had lots of practice. You know, yeah. Yeah. And now looking back at it as a human, I mean, not a human, children are human, but as a grown up. I think. You know, I see myself as a, as a, as a somebody else's child.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  You'd think, oh, God, poor little thing, somebody help her. But that wasn't available. And I think that not being, having.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  I think the only thing that has been, I mean, one of the reasons, and I've said this before, so forgive me if it's not completely original thought, but I've, one of the reasons that I was good at playing these characters who are, who have a sort of secret longing, or secret sadness, or a secret, a secret, is that I, I was very good at holding it in, at not letting anybody, don't cry in class, don't do this, don't do that, don't keep it all back, be the funniest in the room, be this, you know, show off.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  That actually, I was able to connect and communicate a kind of inner sadness, because I had this thing called a camera that wasn't going to judge me, that I could just sort of do it. So, I'm afraid to say, it came out.

• 30:32Elizabeth Day?

  So, that's so beautiful. And I'm just thinking of your performance in The English Patient, which I re-watched this weekend.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  God, it's good, isn't it?

• 30:40Elizabeth Day?

  Oh my God, Christopher, it's so good.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  Such a good film.

• 30:43Elizabeth Day?

  It's so good. I mean, Anthony Mingala, I think, is such a genius. I love all of his films. But the way that you act that part is, there's so much repression, but there's so much fire beneath the surface, and I think that...

• 31:02Speaker 00

  No, that's nice.

• 31:02Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  I haven't, I haven't watched it for a very long time, I haven't watched it in 10 years. But I know that it's, it still has an incredible effect on people, which is the proof of a good film, isn't it? And the role was so beautifully written. I mean, most of the, most of the successes that I've ever had is all down to the writing, to be honest. You know, anyone can say those lines and be brilliant. So, it was... It was very, very, very good writing and, and good directing and good, not bad partner.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  It was alright.

• 31:45Elizabeth Day?

  I don't know what's become of him.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  No, not at all.

• 31:48Elizabeth Day?

  That's the note Rafe finds.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  No, what he does. The other day I went to see him, I went to a rehearsal for an opera he was doing in Paris. And it's so wonderful to see your friends. He's my friend.

• 32:01Elizabeth Day?

  He's your friend.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  He's my friend.

• 32:02Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, that makes me happy.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  To see your friends sort of suddenly take off in another direction. And watching him direct these singers and getting them to perform in a way that just brings chills to you. Unbelievable.

• 32:15Elizabeth Day?

  How wonderful.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  So anyway, I was very happy about that.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  So what were we talking about? Not Rafe.

• 32:20Elizabeth Day?

  No, grief and the sort of cathartic process of the camera being non-judgmental.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So I think that that served me well in, in, you know, it was useful. And I think, you know, there again, now I'm able to look at that and think that isn't me just being indulgent or self-indulgent or whatever. It's not, you know, nasty. It's actually great because a lot of people can,

• 32:47Speaker 00

  can see that, can empathize, can feel something, can... The whole point of cinema, if you want my opinion.

• 32:54Elizabeth Day?

  I do.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Is that you go into a, you, you buy a ticket, you go and you sit down and you share with a whole load of other people you will never, probably never see again in your life, or maybe two of them you will, or three of them, or one of them you might. But they're all strangers and you're all going to be going on this roller coaster together. And some will sob and you can feel somebody sniffling in the next row round. And it's a safe place to go and have all those feelings. And I think that that is such a loss. Because we don't go to the cinema anymore.

• 33:28Elizabeth Day?

  I know, and I love the cinema so much.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  It's so nice when you go with a load of people and the lights go down and the thing is about to begin. And then people get cross because they're rustling their popcorn and then it stops. Because you're all watching the same thing and you're going through hell or you're going, you're at the edge of your seat or you're ducking or whatever you're doing. It's just such an adventure.

• 33:51Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  And I love that.

• 33:54Elizabeth Day?

  Is it annoying when people ask you about Fiona in Four Weddings and a Funeral?

• 33:57Speaker 00

  No, what do you want to know?

• 33:59Elizabeth Day?

  Everything.

• 34:01Elizabeth Day?

  What memories do you have of playing that part?

• 34:03Speaker 00

  Oh, having to beg for it.

• 34:05Elizabeth Day?

  Did you?

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. I'd met Hugh on a film called Bitter Moon that we made with Roman Polanski.

• 34:13Elizabeth Day?

  Hugh as in Hugh Grant?

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we got on very well and he said, you should go up for this. It's a film I'm doing next. The way he is. Grump, grump, grump. And so I managed to get myself a copy and I thought, oh, I can definitely do this. And no, I said, so, so, well, if you can come to England, we can give you an audition, but I'm not sure. So I had to do like two auditions to get that role.

• 34:42Elizabeth Day?

  Well, thank goodness. Thank goodness you got it.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  And such great hats.

• 34:47Elizabeth Day?

  The best hat.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  I love a hat.

• 34:49Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my gosh, that pink hat that you wore with the polka dots.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, polka dot.

• 34:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, this is my tribute to you. I didn't bring the hat in, even though it is how to fail pink in so many ways.

• 34:58Speaker 00

  It's such a good thing, yeah.

• 35:00Elizabeth Day?

  And I suppose that highlights another thing that you bring to roles, which is this innate sense of style. How much have you enjoyed over the years playing with clothes?

• 35:11Speaker 00

  It's the best, isn't it? Because clothes are so important when you're making a character. The first thing you do really is get the costume because they have to be made and it takes months.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  So you go in and you talk to the costume designer and they whip out some colors and have a look at it. And you stand there in your, in your knickers. It's all right. I remember when we did, when we did The English Patient, the costume designer on that is a woman called Anne Roth, who's an absolute miracle. Anyway, she, she got me into the dressing room and said, like, take off your clothes. What do you mean? Just pants and bra. She made me stand on a box in the middle of this room. It was vaguely humiliating. In fact, it wasn't vaguely humiliating, it was utterly humiliating. But I didn't, you know, it's just the way things go. And she walked around me.

• 36:07Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my God.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  I said, yep, it's the tush.

• 36:11Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my gosh. Wow. Do you think of that sometimes when you need a little Philip?

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I need a little, like, you know, I think, well, you know. Might work.

• 36:23Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever got to keep anything, any?

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Yes, loads of things.

• 36:26Elizabeth Day?

  Do you have that jacket of the English patient?

• 36:28Speaker 00

  No, that disappeared.

• 36:30Elizabeth Day?

  Criminal.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  And the wonderful thing happened the other day, I say the other day, it wasn't the other day, it must have been a year or two years ago. I was wearing one of those great big coats they give you to keep you warm. And I put my hand in my pocket. And there's a piece of paper in it, I pull it out and it's the sides from the English patient.

• 36:51Elizabeth Day?

  The sides?

• 36:52Speaker 00

  The sides, okay, sides are a piece of paper that you get with your words for the day on it.

• 36:58Elizabeth Day?

  Huh. From the English place, wow.

• 37:02Speaker 00

  I don't know if it was my coat or not, but it was in there.

• 37:04Elizabeth Day?

  What have you done with them? Did you take them?

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Oh, I just chucked them out, but.

• 37:07Elizabeth Day?

  What? Stop it. You're so unsentimental.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Isn't that amazing?

• 37:12Elizabeth Day?

  That's incredible. Back to this failure.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:17Elizabeth Day?

  And that repressed grief that you carried for so many years. And then you said the turning point was when you had children and you went to psychoanalysis.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  The turning point was when I had children because I just didn't want to pass it on.

• 37:29Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Because I think it's a duty as a parent to get your stuff sorted out before you start bringing them up.

• 37:34Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  In fact, before you start thinking about having them really. But, um, so I wanted to do that and yeah, I went into psychoanalysis. Quite seriously, um, for about six, seven years. And then she died.

• 37:49Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, gosh.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  And I had to find another one.

• 37:51Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sorry, that's awful for someone with, I imagine, a fear of abandonment.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was quite, it was quite difficult.

• 37:59Elizabeth Day?

  Was that in French that you did psychoanalysis?

• 38:01Speaker 00

  No, it was in English. It was of English speaking. An American woman in, in, well, actually two American women in, in, in Paris.

• 38:15Elizabeth Day?

  How do you feel now about your fathers? Are you able in a way to connect with them without the obfuscation of a kind of unexamined grief? If that makes sense?

• 38:29Speaker 00

  It's such a funny thing. I mean, that, the, the thing in the, in the film is really quite sort of on it. That's on the money. That thing about what she says to her children when they've got to get over the fact that their father has died. I see my father, my father was what, thirty six, I think, when he died?

• 38:56Speaker 00

  I remember him as a sort of beautiful young man daddy, who I was madly in love with because I was five. But actually now, he'd be eighty something, quite old, very old.

• 39:11Speaker 00

  And my stepfather, I knew less because I was away at boarding school when I, when my stepfather was around. But, you know, he, he brought us all up. So I just feel admiration for him.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Admiration and gratitude towards him.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  And, you know, I'm pretty amazed that someone would marry a woman with four children. Small, the smallest was only like eighteen months when they were married. Because mommy was pregnant when she, she was widowed.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  But the, so I feel admiration, gratitude

• 39:53Speaker 00

  for that man and just a sense of

• 40:00Speaker 00

  I don't know what the word is, but I, half of my, half of me is my dad. So he's here, wherever he is.

• 40:08Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 40:08Speaker 00

  He's this.

• 40:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Yes. And your mother, tell me about her, she sounds completely extraordinary.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  My mother was extraordinary because she was, it's so weird to talk about her as was. She died four years ago, which really is a thing, your mother dying. It's a huge thing. And of course, because I'd been used to fathers dying.

• 40:33Speaker 00

  And I'd kind of grown up with it and got over it and, as I said, kept going. Grieving for my mother was just like being run over by a tank. I just could not, because now I was, I'd got over all those things and I'd accepted the fact that one is able to grieve and all this. And so that was a massive shock.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  But she was such, she was an extraordinary person. She was so brave and so unprepared. I mean, how do you do that? You're twenty-six or twenty-seven, you're widowed, you've got three little girls, you've got another one on the way.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  That's bad enough. I mean, how you get over that, I just don't know. And she was on her own, her parents didn't live in the same country. She was all on her own. And she'd, she'd given up. She'd wanted to be an actress, my mum. She'd gone to Lambda. And then she met my dad and they fell madly in love. And in those days, you know, that's what you did. You got married and had children. And so she followed him down to Cornwall, where he was based. And then he went off to sea and she was stuck in this tiny little house. Pregnant, and then with me, and then with another one.

• 41:51Speaker 00

  And then she managed to, and then she really came into her own when my stepfather was killed, because I think that did mess her up quite a lot, I think. I remember her being massively, massively, massively depressed and just never really leaving her room and being really, and not eating, you know, and other, it was amazing how people came in, you know, people, friends of hers and how they all rallied round and looked after her. It was amazing. But we were both at school at that time, so I didn't see much of that. But, and then she sort of, I don't know, something happened and she just said, I've

• 42:34Speaker 00

  got, I've got to live everything. And she took us.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  She took us to Cyprus for the whole of the Christmas summer holidays. Somebody lent her a house. She managed to blag her way to getting tickets to Cyprus on a flight run by the RAF of, you know, service families. Because you did, in those days, you got pretty swiftly cut off. Anyway, she managed to do that and we were out there for six weeks. We had an absolutely fantastic time. She'd already learnt Greek because she thought she ought to learn some Greek before she, before she took us there. And we whizzed around in a Mini Moke and had, you know, six weeks in this country that we, that the following year was in civil war. But it was pretty brave.

• 43:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  And she just never stopped doing things like that.

• 43:30Elizabeth Day?

  And when you went through this period of unraveling your own knots, how you felt in your thirties, did you speak to your mother after that about what she'd gone through?

• 43:40Speaker 00

  No, I'm afraid to say I didn't. I spoke to, it was a, it was a sort of non-subject.

• 43:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  You couldn't talk. She was from a very different generation.

• 43:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  She got through it by not getting through it, by just not going there. And so I knew that opening that door would be very difficult for her. And so, I mean, you know, during my therapy, I talked about me, non-stop.

• 44:16Elizabeth Day?

  If you had any advice for someone who is going through the ravages of grief right now, what would you say to them?

• 44:24Speaker 00

  God.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Well, there's a very hackneyed phrase, which is, you know, time is a great healer. Well, that's absolutely true. I think people who've lost parents, the thing that's really helped me is what I was saying earlier about being, you know, I am the result. I am part of that person, is me. That's really, really helped me, particularly with my father. And my mother.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Wow, what an amazing woman. And I, I really miss her. I don't miss my mother. I mean, I've sort of got over missing my mother, but missing the woman Deborah.

• 45:10Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was great. She was such fun. She was, you know, she was great. I often find myself wishing, I do like Instagram, wishing I could send her a, you know, a funny video or something. I love all that. And every time I get into the car to go to the market on Saturday, I think, oh, we'll just call my... No, you won't. Still, four years ago she died. So it is, it is a thing, but it just get, it does get less and less and less painful.

• 45:37Elizabeth Day?

  Do you have a belief in an afterlife? Does any of that Catholic faith still reside in you?

• 45:43Speaker 00

  I'm still wrestling with all of that. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. So it's pretty wavering.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  I'm not sure about afterlife, but I do think that there are... Yeah, I'm not sure.

• 45:59Elizabeth Day?

  I believe in it for you.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  I'm not going to say what I believe in because I, I'm not even sure I believe it. But there are nice thoughts to be had that are reassuring about

• 46:15Speaker 00

  spirits, souls.

• 46:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 46:20Elizabeth Day?

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• 47:06Elizabeth Day?

  and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the...

• 47:11Elizabeth Day?

  Of your first sale today, head over to shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at shopify.co.uk/fail. Your final failure, there's no seamless link, Kristin.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  I know, I'm sorry about that.

• 47:28Elizabeth Day?

  No, it was brilliant because I knew nothing. I knew nothing. I still know nothing. There's very little context for this, but your final failure is being a football supporter.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  I'm rubbish.

• 47:38Elizabeth Day?

  But as in you're rubbish, you don't support football.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  I think I bring them bad luck.

• 47:42Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Is it Leicester City? I don't think I support. I think I'm maybe solely responsible for their decline. No, because what happened was that in 2015, I read an article about how Leicester had come up and won the Premier League, I think it was.

• 48:01Elizabeth Day?

  I remember that, yes.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  And it was at the same time as finding Richard the Third in the car park.

• 48:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, which I'm obsessed with, that whole story.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  There's a wonderful article in The Guardian about how Leicester was really amazing. I loved this idea of this little city winning the thing, you know, it's the David and Goliath thing. I loved it, loved it, loved it. And became a little bit more curious about football and started to watch the World Cup and stuff like that. In 2019, I meet a very lovely man who says he's very interested in football. I hadn't quite figured out how interested in football. But anyway, very interested in football and that he supports a team that are doing really well. It's called Leicester City. And I knew all about Leicester City because I'd read up about it.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  And so, and he took me to a couple of games and I missed the Wembley because I gave the ticket to his son because I knew that his son would appreciate it more. I understood so much more about football. I understood why they have mad haircuts because then you can see them.

• 49:08Elizabeth Day?

  Never realised that.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  I hadn't either. It suddenly occurred to me. But then I got into trouble because I thought that the Arsenal goalkeeper was our goalkeeper because they both had blonde hair and they were both very tall. Schmeichel, his name was. Anyway, it might not have been Arsenal, I can't remember. But so I've been to games and it's fun and but I obviously, you know, do them no good at all.

• 49:32Elizabeth Day?

  Is the lovely man now your husband?

• 49:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:35Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, great. So that's good. That's one good thing that's come out of it.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:39Elizabeth Day?

  Do you enjoy watching football?

• 49:41Speaker 00

  I do. Yeah, I do. Not as much as I enjoy watching rugby, I have to say.

• 49:46Elizabeth Day?

  I also wonder on this, whether there's something quintessentially British about, definitely rugby. And because you have this duality to you, the Frenchness and the Britishness.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Oh, but watching the France play England. Oh, it's agony.

• 49:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Who do you support?

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Well, I do.

• 50:00Elizabeth Day?

  It's like a Norman.

• 50:01Speaker 00

  Do you know what? I don't. But it's that that's the thing about rugby is that you find that you don't really, I'll probably be slaughtered for saying this, but you don't really support anyone because it's such a wonderful game to watch. You you you're just, you know, whoever wins the point is brilliant, you know.

• 50:20Elizabeth Day?

  How French or British are you feeling right now in this phase of your life?

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Uh, I'm about to go back to Paris for a bit. But I suppose I feel, oh, it's the most, it's the hardest question in the world, that. Because I really don't know.

• 50:42Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  I mean, when I was in France, everyone would say, oh, elle est tellement anglaise, you know, no, she's very French, you know. And it's just, I don't, I just don't, I don't know.

• 50:55Elizabeth Day?

  And how are you feeling now, in your 60s, with this extraordinary career? It feels to me as an outsider that you are only just getting started, that there's this energy and vitality and joy that you're bringing to what you're doing now. Does that feel accurate? Does it feel accurate to you?

• 51:21Speaker 00

  It certainly, I certainly enjoy things more. I'm able to enjoy things more. I'm allowed to enjoy things more now. And I'm not quite sure what that is to do with, whether that is just maturity or what it is. Or, but I feel much more able, I'm brave enough to try things out and brave enough to, to accept things and brave enough to, to sort of do new things.

• 51:54Elizabeth Day?

  Um. It's been such a pleasure talking to you.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 51:58Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much for trusting me and for coming on How to Fail.

• 52:02Speaker 00

  A pleasure.

• 52:05Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.