#352: Dr. Peter Attia vs. Tim Ferriss

"Unhappiness is at the root of more pain, I would suspect, than any ailment that falls in the 'physical' body. And to think that we have compounds that could play such an important role that are really facing challenges in getting approved, I just find that really frustrating." — Dr. Peter Attia This is a special episode and features one of my dear friends. A number of guests have started incredible podcasts after being on this show as their first-ever podcast interview, including legendary Navy SEAL commander Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2015/09/25/jocko-willink/. What people don't know is that Jocko was introduced to me by a fella named Peter Attia. Dr. Peter Attia (TW: @PeterAttiaMD https://twitter.com/PeterAttiaMD, IG: @peterattiamd https://www.instagram.com/peterattiamd, peterattiamd.com https://peterattiamd.com/podcast) is a former ultra-endurance athlete (e.g., swimming races of 25 miles), a compulsive self-experimenter, and one of the most fascinating human beings I know. He is one of my go-to doctors for anything performance or longevity-related. He is also easily the best quarterback and sherpa for the US medical system I've ever met. But here is his official bio to do him justice: Peter is the founder of Attia Medical, PC, a medical practice with offices in San Diego and New York City, focusing on the applied science of longevity. Peter trained for five years at the Johns Hopkins Hospital in general surgery, where he was the recipient of several prestigious awards, including resident of the year, and the author of a comprehensive review of general surgery. He also spent two years at NIH as a surgical oncology fellow at the National Cancer Institute where his research focused on immune-based therapies for melanoma. He has since been mentored by some of the most experienced and innovative lipidologists, endocrinologists, gynecologists, sleep physiologists, and longevity scientists in the United States and Canada. Peter earned his M. D. from Stanford University and holds a B. Sc. in mechanical engineering and applied mathematics. In our conversation in this episode, Peter actually interviews me, though he shares a lot of his own experiences. It is audio from Peter's incredible podcast, The Peter Attia Drive https://peterattiamd.com/podcast/, which can be found on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere podcasts are found. It is one of the few podcasts I listen to regularly. Many friends I've shared this particular episode with have now listened to it multiple times. It takes us both a few minutes to warm up, but then it goes really deep. These are many of things people like Peter and I aren't supposed to talk about publicly. Please enjoy! Click here for the show notes for this episode. https://tim.blog/2018/12/13/peter-attia-vs-tim-ferriss/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Please fill out the form at tim.blog/sponsor http://tim.blog/sponsor. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  No, we're just seeing an appropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Peloton, which I've been using probably for about a year now. Peloton is a cutting-edge indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right into your home. You can also do on-demand, which is what I do, we'll come back to that. So you don't have to worry about fitting classes into a busy schedule or making it to a studio or gym with a hectic or unpredictable commute. I, for instance, have a Peloton bike right in my master bedroom at home, and it's one of the first things I do many mornings. I wake up, I meditate for a bit, then I knock out a short 20-minute ride in my undies, hard to do that at the gym, take a shower, and I'm in higher gear for the rest of the day. It's really convenient and has become something that I look forward to. So you have a lot of options. For one, if you like, you can ride live with thousands of other riders across the country

• 1:07Tim Ferriss?

  on an interactive leaderboard to keep you motivated. There are also up to 14 new classes added every day with more than 8,000 classes on-demand, and you can pick based on length, 45 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever, music, hip-hop, rock and roll, or say, low-impact versus high-intensity or interval. You can pick the class structure and style that works for you. And in my case, I quite like Matt Wilpers, and I tend to do on-demand and listen to a lot of and watch many of the same classes over and over, but I'm kind of promiscuous and also enjoy classes from a lot of the other instructors. They have Peloton, an amazing roster of incredible instructors in New York City with a whole range of styles and personalities, so you can find what you're in the mood for.

• 1:48Tim Ferriss?

  You also get real-time metrics that you can use to track your performance over time, and that will help, I would say catalyze you to beat your personal best. Now, that all sounds good, right? Gamification, yada, yada, yada. I didn't think that it would work for me or in any way incentivize me, but they really 100% hit the nail on the head. I was very, very impressed with... How motivating it was, and it worked tremendously to keep me pushing, which quite honestly takes a fair amount. I can get quite lazy, particularly with anything that edges on endurance, which is kind of more than five reps of anything for me. So, check it out. Discover this cutting-edge indoor cycling bike that brings the studio experience right to your home. Peloton is offering listeners of this podcast a limited

• 2:33Tim Ferriss?

  time offer. Go to onepeloton.com, that's O-N-E, peloton, P-E-L-O-T-O-N, dot com, and enter the code TIM, all caps, at checkout and get $100 off of accessories with your Peloton bike purchase. So, get a great workout at home anytime you want. Check it out. Go to onepeloton.com and use the code TIM to get started.

• 2:59Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Walter Isaacson's number one New York Times bestseller, Leonardo da Vinci, which chronicles the life and times of the Renaissance genius while showing us how we can harness da Vinci's boundless curiosity and creativity. Not long ago, I interviewed Walter on this podcast about his writing and Leonardo, as I've known Walter for some time, and the book is spectacular. I think it's his best biography yet, and that is really saying a lot, considering how famous and popular his bios are of Benjamin Franklin, Einstein, and Steve Jobs. Leonardo da Vinci, the book that is, has been hailed by The New Yorker as, quote, "a study in creativity, how to define it, how to achieve

• 3:38Tim Ferriss?

  it," end quote. And it is based on thousands of pages from Leonardo's astonishing notebooks and new discoveries about his life and work. So Walter really reveals an intimate Leonardo. We get to no sides of him we haven't seen before, and a narrative that connects his art to his science. He shows how Leonardo's genius was based on skills that we can improve in ourselves, such as passionate curiosity, but how to hone that, careful observation, how to develop it, and an imagination so playful that it even, I would say, flirted with fantasy, but at the end of the day was imminently practical. Leonardo da Vinci by Walter Isaacson, published by Simon & Schuster, is available now wherever books are sold.

• 4:18Tim Ferriss?

  And I suggest you check out an excerpt at da vinci bio.com. That's da vinci bio.com.

• 4:29Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This is a special episode and features one of my very dear friends. Long-term listeners know by now that a number of my guests have started incredible podcasts after being on this show as their first-ever podcast interview, including people like legendary Navy SEAL Commander Jocko Willink. What fewer people know is that Jocko was introduced to me by Dr. Peter Attia. You can find him on Twitter and Instagram @PeterAttia, A-T-T-I-M-D. And Peter is my conversational partner in today's episode, equally impressive in a lot of respects.

• 5:13Tim Ferriss?

  He is a former ultra-endurance athlete, for instance, swimming races of 25 miles or more, a compulsive self-experimenter, so of course I love this guy, and one of the most fascinating human beings I know. He is probably the highest-end doctor I have ever met, and that's saying a lot. Specifically, I would say I go to him with questions about performance or longevity, for instance. Would metformin or rapamycin make sense to extend lifespan without sacrificing performance, et cetera, et cetera? But he is also easily the best quarterback and sherpa for the US medical system I've ever encountered.

• 5:55Tim Ferriss?

  So, let me actually read some of his official bio to do him justice. "Peter is the founder of Attia Medical PC, a medical practice with offices in San Diego and New York City focusing on the applied science of longevity. Peter trained for five years at the Johns Hopkins Hospital in General Surgery, where he was the recipient of several prestigious awards, including Resident of the Year, and the author of a comprehensive review of general surgery. He also spent two years at the NIH as a surgical oncology fellow at the National Cancer Institute, where his research focused on immune-based therapies for melanoma. He has since been mentored by some of the most experienced and innovative lipidologists -- that's a word -- endocrinologists, gynecologists, sleep physiologists, all the..."

• 6:37Tim Ferriss?

  And longevity scientists, moreists, in the United States and Canada. Peter earned his M.D. from Stanford University and holds a Bachelor's of Science in Mechanical Engineering and Applied Mathematics. In the conversation in this episode, Peter actually interviews me. That's the plot twist, though he shares a lot of his own experiences. And it is audio from Peter's incredible podcast, brand new, The Peter Attia Drive, which can be found on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere podcasts are found. It is one of the few podcasts I listen to regularly. And many friends I've shared this particular episode with, this audio, have now listened to it multiple times.

• 7:19Tim Ferriss?

  It takes both Peter and I a few minutes to warm up, so there's a little bit of, uh, sort of, what do you call it, uh, small talk foreplay, but then it goes really deep and we end up talking about a lot of things that people like Peter and I aren't supposed to talk about publicly. So with that said, here we go.

• 7:42Peter Attia?

  Welcome to episode one of The Peter Attia Drive. I can think of no better person to begin this podcast with than my very dear friend, Tim Ferriss. Not only is Tim a really close friend, but he's also almost single-handedly the reason this podcast is coming into existence. In other words, if you hate it, you can blame Tim. Tim has been kind of on my case for about two years to do this, and more than anything else, he's just really helped me think about how I can sort of put something together that allows me to create something that is sort of new and that isn't already out there in terms of content, but also is something that I'll find enjoyable to do and that hopefully will come across as this podcast gets underway.

• 8:25Peter Attia?

  I'm guessing most people listening to this know a lot about Tim, but on the off-chance that there are some who don't, I think it's just worth kind of giving a little bit of background on Tim. He's been described as a, quote, "a cross between Jack Welsh and a Buddhist monk" by the New York Times. He's one of Fast Company's most innovative business people. He's an early-stage tech investor and advisor, and that includes a number of companies that most people have heard of, such as Uber, Facebook. Twitter, Spotify, Alibaba, and at least 50 others. He's also the author of five number one New York Times bestsellers and Wall Street Journal bestsellers. The Four Hour Work Week, The Four Hour Body, The Four Hour Chef, Tools of Titans, also known as Biggest Tools, that's an inside joke in reference to the podcast, and Tribe of Mentors. The Observer

• 9:09Peter Attia?

  and other media outlets have described him as the Oprah of audio due to the influence of his podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, which has about 300 million downloads at the time of this recording. It's also been selected as the best of iTunes for three years running. Now, I want to say something about this episode that will become apparent, obviously, once we get started. One, we talk a lot about things that are topics that Tim and I don't really spend a lot of time discussing publicly and certainly personally. And so it's important to understand here that while Tim and I do talk quite openly about psychedelic experiences we've shared in South America, it shouldn't be taken to mean that that's what we're recommending that anybody go out and do. We're absolutely not doing that. There are physical, there are psychological, and there are legal risks among these things. And it's important to

• 9:52Peter Attia?

  remember that in the United States, at the time of this recording psychedelics like psilocybin, which we speak about quite a bit, along with mescaline and things that we don't get into much detail around such as ayahuasca, these are currently Schedule I, which means that they are illegal. And while we believe, obviously, that that designation is completely unwarranted and will likely, you know, eventually no longer be the case when the scientific community has a chance to catch up and understand the great potential of these things, really, the purpose of this podcast is informational only. And while I do generally provide a disclaimer at the end of my podcast that explains that all of this information is informational, I want to be really clear about this particular issue. We talk a lot about these things. We talk about a few other things as well.

• 10:35Peter Attia?

  And I think even for the listener who doesn't find this topic to be particularly interesting, one thing that we talk about at the very end of the podcast that I'd been meaning to ask Tim for a while, and certainly I get asked a lot, is what are the things that you still incorporate in your daily routine? Tim has written so eloquently about this stuff and has codified so- So many ways to find these minimum effective doses and to optimize everything he's doing. But I think people wonder, hey, which are the things that have really stood the test of time? And so I actually found that last part of the podcast to be especially interesting, even for me, though I knew these things and I can see all the things that Tim does day in and day out.

• 11:18Peter Attia?

  But to sort of have him say, look, if I had to pick five, these would be the five. Tim can be found all over the place, but I think the best places to see him are on his blog, which is tim.blog. You can follow him at T Ferris, that's F E R R I S S on Twitter. And you find him at Tim Ferriss on Facebook and Instagram. I hope you enjoy this first episode half as much as I enjoyed recording it. And there will be lots more of these to follow. So with all of that said, please welcome Tim Ferriss.

• 11:54Peter Attia?

  Hey, Tim.

• 11:55Tim Ferriss?

  Peter.

• 11:55Peter Attia?

  Thank you for having me out in Austin this weekend.

• 11:57Tim Ferriss?

  My pleasure. It's been a good weekend. Good view, too.

• 12:01Peter Attia?

  Yeah. What I can't believe is in the relatively short period of time you have lived here, you've become essentially the unofficial mayor of Austin.

• 12:10Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I like to get involved and to explore all the various nooks and crannies of any city that I live in. And after 17 years in the Bay Area, I felt like I'd left almost no stone unturned. Have many dear friends who are still there, but many of them have traveled outside. And one of the places that was an annual migration was South by Southwest here in Austin. And had wanted to move here right after college, gotten to know it year by year with increasingly longer stays in the city before and after the festival itself. And now it's home. Couldn't be happier.

• 12:49Peter Attia?

  Feel like every place we went in the last three days, everybody knew you like the owner of the restaurant would know you and the coffee shop. And it was. I don't think I've drank more coffee and Topo Chico in as short a period of time as I have in the last three days.

• 13:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, coffee, Topo Chico, and so many things here. Yeah, breakfast tacos is something I haven't yet explored. That's another form of religion here, right next to barbecue and a bunch of other things, but it's a cozy feel. It has a neighborhood feel and I've come to value that type of neighborhood feel and cohesion, which is something I probably wouldn't have paid much attention to 10 years ago.

• 13:34Peter Attia?

  Yeah, I've sort of always assumed I would live forever in California and I gotta say, all your hard work here to get your friends to move out here. It's, I think it's gonna pay off. I, I think I can see Austin in my future.

• 13:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I have, I have a lot of friends who are moving and I think in many respects, it's defined by the fact that it's difficult to categorize. There is no one mono conversation about tech or entertainment or finance. And some people might view that as a weakness, meaning if you're looking to live in the epicenter of a certain industry and you're in your early twenties and want to cut your teeth and live that hyperkinetic, super aggressive lifestyle while you're building your foundation for the future, that's one thing. But in my case, I'm much more so in placing

• 14:30Tim Ferriss?

  value on the general friendliness, the cultural diversity, which is not just skin deep. It covers so many different bases here. And I enjoy the fact that you can go from a strict vegan restaurant to a deer processing plant, to an electric scooter startup office, to a cowboy boot store, all in the stretch of a few blocks.

• 14:57Tim Ferriss?

  That's exciting to me.

• 14:58Peter Attia?

  And though I've never really bought the argument that people in New York and Southern California, which are the two places I spend most of my time are, you know, I've never bought the argument that those are snotty, super snotty places and nobody's nice. Cause I do think that people are actually pretty decent everywhere, including in the middle of Manhattan. But that said, it's a different level of nice here that is completely foreign to me.

• 15:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it is. I remember when I first moved to Austin and I had a number of neighbors drop off cards or come to the door to ring the bell to ask if I wanted to come over for dinner. And I didn't even know how to respond, which, which really.

• 15:36Peter Attia?

  You're like, what are they selling?

• 15:37Tim Ferriss?

  More about myself that I was so mistrusting perhaps, but in San Francisco, that does not happen as far as I know. I've never heard of that happening, certainly in New York. It'd be, you know, time to check your security system and, and consider your, your avenues of getting out of the house. But here that's just par for the course and it's, it's really been nice to embrace that. And even within Texas, Austin is, is known for being very, very friendly. And I've, I've met many different people here who have moved from Houston and other parts, which are also fantastic in their own way because of the general level of friendliness.

• 16:20Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm a fan, I'm a fan, you know, I always thought I would be, felt the gravitational pull here when I graduated and did not get the job here that I so coveted at Trilogy. And it turned out being a blessing in disguise that I didn't get the job. And I think also for Trilogy, because I most likely would have been a terrible employee. But that took me to NorCal, had a great stint there, but that chapter came to a close and it was just the right time.

• 16:47Peter Attia?

  Well, as I said, it's been amazing to be here. Not my first time here, but each time I come, I, I like it more and more. And I guess with that said, we are kicking off effectively the first episode of a podcast that you, more than any other friend, although several friends have played an enormous role in the so-called cajoling, as I referred to it earlier, in making this happen. So if this ends up sucking.

• 17:13Tim Ferriss?

  I'll take all the blame.

• 17:14Peter Attia?

  I'm blaming you. If this ends up doing okay, I'm thanking you. But either way, I, I think this has been, this will be fun.

• 17:21Tim Ferriss?

  I think my customary 30% is very reasonable.

• 17:25Peter Attia?

  Thirty percent of what, right? Yeah.

• 17:29Peter Attia?

  Now, obviously, this podcast is on some level, and probably on a large level, going to come down to things that I think a lot about and hope to bring to people. You asked me the other day, you know, what am I hoping to accomplish with this? And I don't have a great elevator pitch on it, but one of the things is, I find myself so often having conversations with people that I think, God, this person's so much smarter than me and knows so much more than me, and they're letting me be a sponge right now and absorb so much information from them. And so many times, I find myself at the end of those discussions thinking, I can't believe nobody else got to hear that. What if I didn't extract everything from that correctly? What if there was more to be gathered? And so, it's really that desire to sort of have as many of these conversations as possible and be able to sort of share them in their natural state that I think is a large part

• 18:14Peter Attia?

  of this motivation. And while most people sort of associate me, I suspect, with thinking about longevity, we probably don't spend enough time talking about what longevity means, but the way I talk about it with my patients is it's both enhancing lifespan, but also health span. And lifespan is the easier of those two to understand, because enhancing lifespan just means not dying, which is not to say that that's easy, but it's conceptually easy. I think the health span stuff is harder to understand, and as I have come to learn in the past three or four years, I believe for most people, it actually matters more. Many people think, you know, if you helping me doesn't add one day to the length of my life, but improves the quality of my life, especially at the end, that would be sufficient.

• 18:58Peter Attia?

  And so, in many ways, what I want to talk about today is one piece of health span that I know the least about by far, but also, I think, is the one that we are least likely to talk about as a society, which is sort of mental health. Now, you've spoken really publicly about your interest in that. I knew a lot of this before you talked about it at TED, but can you tell me a little bit about that?

• 19:20Tim Ferriss?

  I can, and I'm thrilled you're doing a podcast, because I do think that, just as a bit of overlay on what you said, there is so much focus on extending lifespan, rightly so, but the...

• 19:35Tim Ferriss?

  Equal obsession, equal level of obsession that you bring to performance and health span, I think, creates a compelling combination that I don't find in many places. I find the combination of those interests very common, but the combination of competencies, broadly speaking, in both of those domains is very uncommon. So I'm excited to listen to other episodes of the podcast. And as it relates to mental health, I should, as maybe an introductory preamble, say that this is not a topic I've always been comfortable

• 20:14Tim Ferriss?

  talking about publicly. And in fact, I would say for the vast majority of my adolescence, and certainly throughout high school and college, I somehow came to the conclusion that I was just not designed to be happy, that evolution did not optimize for happiness, and I just did not have the code for happy. And that was okay, that I would be an instrument of competition, I would learn to be good at various things that were valued at colleges and then by the business worlds and so on, and that it was not worth trying to be happy

• 20:57Tim Ferriss?

  or to not just love myself, but really have a high opinion of myself. And in fact, that was self-indulgent, and that I would just focus on being the best competitor possible, and hopefully turning that into something that was not only of value to me, or that I was rewarded for, but that would help other people, and that perhaps I would find some joy in the joy of other people, but that was the extent of it. And suffered from many different bouts of extended depression for as long as I can recall, really. And that is also something that you can spot very easily, looking back at my family history on both sides. And

• 21:39Tim Ferriss?

  If you look back to grandparents and great great grandparents, a fair amount of alcohol consumption, certainly, a fair amount of alcoholism. I thankfully have not soothed myself with excessive amounts of alcohol, but you see a lot of patterns that scared me certainly, but the depression was one that I could just not seemingly navigate around. And the TED Talk opened with a particularly close call, the closest call I've ever had. This is not a common experience for me, but in college, where I came very, very close to killing myself, and I actually got to the planning stages. It wasn't just rumination about what if, I wonder, what it would be like to take my life. No, it was a decision

• 22:23Tim Ferriss?

  that had been made and I was already in the planning stages. And to give people the short punchline to that, which explains why I'm here today, I had reserved a book, which was going to be the last of many that I had read on this subject related to suicide. It was already checked out of the Firestone Library at Princeton, where I was at the time taking a year away from. And it was checked out to some other poor student. So I put in a request to be notified when it came back into the library, but I forgot to update my address at the registrar's office. And the address that I had on file after taking this leave of absence was my home address in New York where my parents

• 23:06Tim Ferriss?

  lived. And so my mom got this postcard, which was, "Dear Tim Ferriss, this is to notify you that..." And then whatever it was, you know, the final solution, da da da da da, whatever it might have been, "The How To Kill Yourself Manual has arrived. Please come to claim your book within the next X number of weeks, or it'll be released to the next person who has it on reservation." Whatever the postcard said, and I got this very... Heartfelt, understandably nervous call from my mom with her voice cracking, asking about it. And I lied. I said it was, I was very fast on my feet. And I said it was for a friend at Rutgers who wasn't able to get the book for dissertation or a thesis he was working on. So I reserved it for him. No, everything's fine. But in that moment, after that call,

• 23:51Tim Ferriss?

  I realized how these, in retrospect, little waves, small events can be blown, or even large events, can be blown so out of proportion or seen as permanent in such a way that regardless of socioeconomic status, regardless of race, regardless of gender, people can be so knocked off course that they end up taking their own lives. And certainly recently, that's been very dramatically demonstrated and tragically demonstrated with the deaths of many people, including Anthony Bourdain, who comes to mind most recently. And that's just on the

• 24:31Tim Ferriss?

  high profile side. But in my case personally, I realized how my blinders and pessimism in this downward spiral had led me to really only focus on my pain. I didn't realize how, until that phone call, committing suicide would have been like taking 10 times the pain that I felt and imposing it on the people who loved me the most. And that was a huge wake up call. So that is why I'm here today, is the lucky accident that I did not update my address at the registrar's office. And if that had not happened, I mean, I was ready

• 25:13Tim Ferriss?

  to pull the trigger, so to speak, although that wasn't how I was gonna go. But it was all specked out. It's terrifying to think of, really, really terrifying to think of. And I have some of my best friends in high school, who you never would have suspected from the outside looking in, killed themselves, college, same story. I just know so many people who have taken their own lives and

• 25:39Tim Ferriss?

  It always came as a shock to people, at least who knew them in school, for instance. They seemed to have it all together. They seemed to have the good relationship, or the good job, or the good grades, or whatever it might be, the good family. And that's led me in the last few years, in particular, to at the very least, want to focus on discussing mental health, different facets of mental health, from an experiential firsthand basis, simply to tell people, if, assuming I don't have any type of ready answer for them, you are not alone. This is exceptionally, exceptionally common, but it's the dirty little secret that so many people carry around and are unwilling to discuss.

• 26:24Tim Ferriss?

  And so, at the very least, I want to say, you are not alone. There are millions upon millions of people fighting similar battles, and everyone you meet is fighting some inner battle you know nothing about. So do not assume that you are alone. And I think in that, hopefully, people can find some solace. And then beyond that, I've spent the last few years really investigating, using the contacts and network that I've developed through the books and the podcast and the tech investing, to explore avenues and potential treatments or interventions that can certainly help people who are on the brink get back to stability potentially, but also to take

• 27:07Tim Ferriss?

  people who are, who might view themselves as stable or normal, and to mitigate against the potential of losing their footing. And then there are, we can go beyond that, certainly. But that is, my interest in this certainly began on a very personal level. How do I, is it possible, I should say, forget about how, is it possible for me to manage this? And the type of thinking that triggers the most dangerous downward spirals is, what's the point? If I'm, if I'm constantly going to default to this negative thinking, and I'm so blessed for A, B, and C reasons, what's the point?

• 27:52Tim Ferriss?

  And that is a really, really poisonous, toxic mental landscape to immerse yourself into and get caught in. So is it possible for me to somehow?

• 28:06Tim Ferriss?

  Decrease the frequency of those types of episodes? Is it possible somehow to decrease the severity of those episodes? Is it possible to look at my quirky biochemistry, my software, in a way that I see some blessings within my day-to-day, month-to-month experience that in some way counteract the tendency to view myself so harshly when the inevitable dips come? Long answer to a short question, but that's, that's really been particularly in the last, I would say, two years, three, mostly starting about five years ago, but in the last two or three, really diverting a lot of my attention that was going to startup investing, a lot

• 28:50Tim Ferriss?

  of my resources that were going to startup investing to areas that are related to this.

• 28:55Peter Attia?

  And there's so much of that stuff I can't wait to talk about today because you've brought a lot of people along on this ride with you. So obviously I can only speak from my own personal experience, but we have so many mutual friends who have also been heavily influenced by sort of a sense of awareness that you've brought to us with respect to all of these things, but also potential solution spaces that are outside of our realm of thinking. You know, you said something at the outset, which was, you just thought you weren't wired to be happy, which I, I mean, I can resonate with that completely. I remember as a child, my mom would always say to me, you know, Peter, do you just not want to be happy? And I would, I would look at her like, I don't know what kind of dumb question that is, like, it's not an option. Like, you might as well be asking me if I want to be 12 feet tall, like I have some say in the matter.

• 29:40Peter Attia?

  It's not about wanting to be happy, it's just about metaphysically not being able to be happy. And then furthermore, my thought, which was even a bit more obscure, or maybe bizarre, was happiness was a bad thing because you would stop being hungry.

• 29:53Tim Ferriss?

  Makes you complacent.

• 29:54Peter Attia?

  Yes.

• 29:55Tim Ferriss?

  So right along with self-indulgence, there was that.

• 29:57Peter Attia?

  Yeah. It was like, Mom, if I was happy, I wouldn't get up at 4:30 in the morning and run harder and faster than anybody else to... And of course, I didn't have the, I don't think I had the mental framework to probe that idea further, which is what are you proving? Who are you proving it to? Why do you feel the need to do all of these things? But it wasn't until quite recently that I even began to entertain the idea that being happy is not a bad thing.

• 30:21Tim Ferriss?

  Or put it another way, that it's a good thing.

• 30:22Peter Attia?

  Yeah.

• 30:25Tim Ferriss?

  The double negative. Yeah, right, right. Just to touch on a few things you just mentioned, which I think are really important. The self-talk, Jim Lehrer, who's a performance coach, who's worked with many, many of the most famous tennis players and other athletes in the world. I had a chance to spend time with him for my last book and then also for some tennis training in Florida. And he's, he's spent time with one of my very close friends, Josh Waitzkin, as well, who's, who's best known for being the basis for searching for Bobby Fischer, for those people who are familiar. And he talks a lot about the inner voice, the most important coach and voice you ever hear is your inner voice.

• 31:09Tim Ferriss?

  So I've learned to pay increasing attention to the words I use, particularly when I'm ruminating, referring to myself, talking to myself, making a note to self. That's a long story, inside joke, guys, another time. And I found myself using perhaps very unsurprisingly similar language to yourself. If I were happy, I wouldn't be doing the things that are very clearly contributing to my success, whatever that means. And not only that, but on every possible level, if I were to find joy in too many moments,

• 31:53Tim Ferriss?

  or to not feel deficient or inadequate, or loathe, loathworthy, which is honestly how I've, I've felt for the majority of my life. No, I don't just not love myself, like, there's a deep sense of, well, I hate to use the word hate, but it's the right word, like, loathing, like, how could you be so stupid? How could you be so lazy? How could you be so, fill in the blank? Toughen the fuck up. And you may not have control over all things, but you know what you can get really, really good at doing is absorbing pain. I get really good at absorbing pain. It's like, okay, if you work hard and have a high pain tolerance. Maybe you can win, maybe you can be successful.

• 32:34Tim Ferriss?

  And I should put "win" and "successful" in quotation marks because they're so seldom well-defined by people who use this type of language, including myself, for decades. But what I've come to realize, and this is also, I think, a common concern among type A personalities who consider or are told by people they respect that they should take a stab at meditation for a period of time. There is this highly prevalent, almost universal concern among type A personalities, by which I just mean driven, like hard-charging, head through walls, "I can take the pain, fuck it, I'm just gonna grit my teeth and white-knuckle through anything that comes my way."

• 33:16Tim Ferriss?

  Which, hey, let's face it, that serves people very well up to a point in certain ways. They worry about losing their edge. This is the exact wording that I hear so often, and the exact wording that I used with my friends when they first recommended. A few of them, Rick Rubin and Chase Jarvis, very specifically Rick Rubin, legendary music producer, although that doesn't, it's not even a drop in the ocean of what Rick does and who Rick is, but Rick Rubin and then Chase, very, very famous photographer, also the CEO of a company called CreativeLive, which is an incredible company in and of itself, both of them recommended meditation to me, and I resisted for more than a year, I want to say, because I was afraid of losing my edge.

• 34:00Tim Ferriss?

  Even though, what I came to realize was, if you want to use your edge indiscriminately, like a kitchen knife, which is only a blade, like the handle is also bladed on both sides, you can continue doing what you're doing. If, on the other hand, you want to put a nice ergonomic handle on that beautifully honed blade so that you can use it as an instrument for its highest purposes... You can utilize different tools, meditation being one of them, and we could talk about all the different types of meditation as well, because I think they do have slightly different applications, is a tool in the toolkit that allows you to build this beautiful

• 34:42Tim Ferriss?

  kitchen knife, instead of holding on to the blade itself, just bleeding over and over again, scabbing, bleeding, scabbing, bleeding, which is, I think, day to day how many driven people experience life, whether they are financially stable or not, if they are compulsively active, if they are using the distraction of constant motion and absorbing pain and seeking pain to numb themselves so that they don't have to be in their own head any longer than possible, which is what I did for a fucking long time, pardon my French, but I mean, decades.

• 35:22Tim Ferriss?

  If they're able to develop other skills that allow them to, and I've certainly, less than seeking happiness, I have been looking for ways to both develop in myself and help others to develop a sense of peace, even if it's 10 minutes a day. That does nothing, nothing negative in my book, other than magnify your strengths and allow you to, maybe for the first time, see some of your weaknesses that are very often self-imposed, and the blind spots that have been like an invisible hand guiding your life for, in some cases, decades.

• 36:06Tim Ferriss?

  I see no, I really see no downside to that, and since I've had two cappuccinos and I guess have some extra personality, I'll further extend my long ass answer by saying, my books very clearly track my priorities in some respects. You have The Four Hour Work Week, which looked at different types of currencies, time being the most valuable non-renewable of those, and How to Address a Few Wrongs on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. And...

• 36:43Tim Ferriss?

  As I've moved along and suffered my own burnout of different types, not necessarily financially related, but certainly for our chef, took me out for the count. I bit off more than I could chew, in part because I was having some personal difficulties and some relationships, and I wanted to numb myself. I went back to that numbing behavior, which included taking stimulants, which included over-caffeinating, in addition to the pills and so on, using alcohol at night to wind down, engaging in exercise that was far more painful and ridiculously punishing than it had to be for any type of health or performance purpose. And I crashed and burned. And that led to the podcast

• 37:28Tim Ferriss?

  as a way to take a break from book writing, which led to the explorations and talking to people like Brene Brown, talking to people like Tara Brock, talking to people like Jack Kornfield and many, many others, that then led to, say, Travamintors or Tools of Titans, then Travamintors and where I am now. Where I look at this Maslow's hierarchy of needs and realize, at least for myself, let's say you cover your food, you cover your shelter, you cover da, da, da, da, da, and you get up to these rungs on the ladder where you've checked off success. You are blessed, you are hopefully healthy, your family might be healthy,

• 38:09Tim Ferriss?

  and you can meet all of your basic needs and probably have some disposable income, and yet you have trouble living with yourself. That's a fucking tragedy. I mean, it's to have deciphered how to achieve and yet not be able to appreciate is that it's just the tragedy of tragedies. It's this kind of fool's errand that could have taken five years, could have taken 10, could have taken 20. And then you see people like that who do not know which way to turn and then perhaps just withdraw into a shell and, you know, sit at a table with their family and look at their phone for the entire dinner over and over and over again because they don't know how to emotionally engage.

• 38:52Tim Ferriss?

  Age with themselves, let alone other people. Or you see the more dramatic cases where they're like, "All right, I thought these things would make me happy. I was told these things were the necessary ingredients for eventually solving this emotional Rubik's Cube that I've been struggling with my whole life, where I assumed that poof, one day I would just wake up and have made it. Even if having made it just means you're not struggling with alcoholism and rent like your parents did, or something like that. And I've come to realize you don't need to, and you should not, wait until you think you have all of the other pieces, non-emotional, non-psychological pieces of the puzzle together,

• 39:35Tim Ferriss?

  to start working on self-acceptance, among other things. And untying some of those Gordian knots that you have, that you might have carried for decades since your childhood. And that it is not esoteric, it is not intangible. When you start to address some of those things, it makes everything more effortless. It makes everything more rewarding. And that, I think, is a project worth tackling. It's a lot, but that's... Yeah, this depression, I think particularly among men, who are very, very, very bad generally, and I'm just gonna paint with a broad brush because that makes this type of conversation a little easier.

• 40:20Tim Ferriss?

  But broadly speaking, across cultures, it really doesn't matter where you go. Women are generally better at social cohesion and building groups of friends who are mutually supportive. And we can look at it through an evolutionary lens, but men very often are biologically, culturally, who knows, fill in the blank, trained, and maybe born to just bite their lip and suffer in silence. And I do think there are certain places for that. Look, if you're gonna be a Navy SEAL commander... Waking up every morning and like telling your direct reports like about your really hard dream you had, probably not like strategically, tactically, professionally, or ethically,

• 41:04Tim Ferriss?

  the right thing to do when you have to go out and then risk your lives doing things that are mission critical to fill in the blank, right? So there is a time for that, but to make that your one coping mechanism for navigating life, or like the sort of the mesh that is imposed on everything else that you suffer in silence and that the solution to that is just to get tougher, to get better at accepting pain, to use cheesy tech parlance, doesn't scale. It just doesn't scale.

• 41:36Peter Attia?

  You know, when I was on your podcast the first time, which I don't know how long ago that was, it feels like it's probably been three or four years ago. One of the questions I remember you asked me, which of course you ask many of your guests is what book have you gifted more than any other? And I remember the book I mentioned at the time, it was and remains a great book, but I now have to update that answer.

• 41:54Tim Ferriss?

  What was it, just for people who are curious?

• 41:55Peter Attia?

  It was Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me, which is just an amazing book on the psychology of cognitive dissonance. But of course, that now has been surpassed. There is now a new book that is my most gifted book, and amazingly, I can't believe I didn't bring a copy to Austin to give you, because I now, I probably, I think I just buy Amazon out of this book. Like I just have stacks of it all over, like you have stacks of certain books in your place. And this book is called I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Reel, who I've since reading the book and becoming obsessed with. Actually, it comes back to you. You introduced me to Esther Perel. Esther recommended the book. The book was one of a series of little nudges that ultimately led to me meeting Teri.

• 42:40Peter Attia?

  And of course, that book has now been the book I have given most. But what you said is spot on, which is there is just this epidemic of male depression. And it's not always overt. That's the thing, right? People have this image of what depression is, but... You know, like a guy who's constantly angry or emotionally volatile, he can be quite depressed. So depression isn't always dysthymia. And I think that's where people miss this idea of how much pain people, both men and women, carry around, but how men have this more orthogonal way of displaying it that makes it get masked longer and longer. And I want to go back to something you said earlier because it really hit home

• 43:23Peter Attia?

  about a year ago when a mutual friend of ours, Paul Conti, made this point to me, which was, "The way you treat yourself is ultimately how you will treat those you love most." And, you know, when he really pushed me to think about that, which is, "Do you want to be the guy who treats his kids the way you treat yourself?" And it had to be put that way for me to think, "No." I mean, if I'm going to be brutally honest, I would not want to watch my kids get treated by another human the way I treat myself, even though I think it's good for me to treat myself this way. So again, I think the challenge is, by far, the hardest part is getting people to accept that maybe what they're doing isn't the right thing.

• 44:08Peter Attia?

  Or maybe right's the wrong word. It's not the best thing. It's not the optimal thing. I loved your analogy of taking the best blade in the world and not having a handle on it. I mean, it's a limited tool.

• 44:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And there are, so I would say, just to maybe put a fine point on it, going through life merely tolerating yourself, which would have been a dream for me. I mean, I actively loathed myself and any weakness, any mistake, any foible, any flaw. I was, and still at times, am so incredibly violently critical in my own head that it is not the treatment that I would wish on anyone I care about.

• 44:57Tim Ferriss?

  That is not a state you have to accept. It is not programming that you have to accept. And there are ways to begin to chip away at that and to rewire it. And to reformat, in a sense. Certain behaviors that you've experienced for so long, many of them are thought patterns, self-talk, that you've come to believe they are completely unchangeable. And in my experience, and more and more of the experience of dozens and thousands of other people I've observed in the last five years, it is patently untrue that you have to accept them.

• 45:39Tim Ferriss?

  And I think what you said is really, really important to digest and ponder. And that is, how you treat yourself is how you are going to treat the people you care most about. And I think it was actually Gloria Steinem who had a quote, and I don't know if this is accurate, but somebody on the internet I'm sure will fact check this, who said, in effect, I'm paraphrasing here, but the golden, you have to remember that the golden rule goes both ways. So we all know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you flip that around, it is do unto yourself as you would do unto others.

• 46:16Tim Ferriss?

  And that is really, has very profound and wide-reaching implications. When you really sit with it for a minute. And spice to say, though, you do not have to accept the inner voice or the patterns that have led you to pursue success with rare glimpses of any type of inner peace. That is not something you have to accept.

• 46:42Peter Attia?

  So, one of the most sort of profound experiences I've had, and sets of experiences I've had in the past few years, are experiences we've shared together around certain plants that honestly I was completely unaware of and ignorant of for most of my life, had never really given them any thought, and probably much of the

• 47:06Peter Attia?

  Stuff that you've talked about, written about in the past. In particular, there were two podcasts that you did. One was with Martin and I'm trying to think who the other.

• 47:13Tim Ferriss?

  Martin Polanco and Dan Engel.

• 47:15Peter Attia?

  Dan Engel, that was the other one, yeah. And those were two separate podcasts, but they were very close together, if I recall. They were a couple of months apart.

• 47:20Tim Ferriss?

  There were a few together and then a few apart. So you had James Fadiman and then Dan Engel and Martin together.

• 47:29Peter Attia?

  That's right.

• 47:29Tim Ferriss?

  And then later, Michael Pollan.

• 47:34Peter Attia?

  Yep. But that first wave was probably 2015-ish.

• 47:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it was a few, it was a couple of years ago.

• 47:41Peter Attia?

  That was the thin end of the wedge. And interestingly, the thin end of the wedge for me was around something that wasn't a personal issue, but more of a societal issue, which is I was blown away by the discussion and the clinical results that they were achieving in Mexico using a plant called Iboga and using Ibogaine as well to treat patients who were opiate addicted. And that's something that even back when I was sort of, you know, in my residency and you would see in a city like Baltimore, what the effects of heroin addiction are. And of course, today, it's even a much bigger issue and it's spread far beyond just heroin. So that just interested me purely from an intellectual standpoint, which is, wait a minute.

• 48:24Peter Attia?

  We have a drug or set of drugs that are so categorically addictive to so many, for which our only treatments are at best useless. And there's this other thing that admittedly comes with plenty of risk and plenty of unknowns. But it seems to fundamentally change the way a person's brain is wired, which would seem to address the root issue as opposed to the Band-Aid. That led, of course, to me wanting to understand more about those entire classes of compounds. And that led to my very first experience with them, which I shared with you, meaning which, you know, you helped me through, which to this day remains one of the most profound things I've ever done.

• 49:08Peter Attia?

  And if anybody's listening to this who's thinking, what are they talking about? What are these psychedelic agents? Aren't those drugs, you know, all these things? One of the most remarkable things I remember after the first time I tried psilocybin was, I don't feel like doing that again anytime soon. These are the most anti-addictive compounds on the planet. What started your interest into that space?

• 49:34Tim Ferriss?

  The interest began, and for those people listening who are wondering if we'll discuss any other tools, I think we should also discuss some other options on the table aside from this, although this is very fertile ground for discussion. So we can talk about meditation, some other tools and books and so on later. But the, my interest in psychedelics began long ago with a close friend who introduced me to psilocybin, contained in what is commonly called magic mushrooms. Must have been in college, midpoint perhaps in college. And it became an annual ritual.

• 50:18Tim Ferriss?

  And once a year, I would meet up with a few of my closest friends and we would consume mushrooms. In retrospect, it was very haphazard. We were not measuring any doses. We would just have a big bag of mushrooms and split it up and then hope for the best, which is not ideally how you go about things. And nonetheless, despite the lack of controls, and I do not recommend anyone use these compounds under uncontrolled circumstances, I experienced what I began to refer to as a reboot. And I would have this anxiety and depression plaguing me.

• 50:59Tim Ferriss?

  I would go very, very deep and looking back now, I was almost certainly consuming minimum of five grams. I'm sure I was consuming quite a high dose of mushrooms, which is for those people who might read the writing or listen to some of the presentations of someone named Terrence McKenna, five grams is referred to as a heroic dose and that is a dose sufficient to flatten even the most resistant ego, I believe is the wording that was used. In any case, I felt this decrease or even complete removal of depression, anxiety that extended

• 51:38Tim Ferriss?

  far beyond the supposed duration of effect. Let's just call it five to eight hours. And there would be this afterglow period that certainly lasted most acutely for a day or two after the experience. And I was going into this also with none of the best practices that we know of now in terms of preparation, intention setting, perhaps some of the preparatory steps you can take and then integration. There's none of that. So this was very bare bones, haphazard experimentation with a few friends. Nonetheless, there were these periods of, let's just call it two weeks to two months, where I was able to finally see things clearly,

• 52:23Tim Ferriss?

  appreciate all of the incredible chance blessings that I experienced in my life and make decisions about things I viewed as serious problems or challenges or opportunities, whether it was making a decision about academics, making a decision about a relationship to either start a relationship or end a longstanding relationship. These were things I was able to look at very calmly and make decisions about.

• 52:54Tim Ferriss?

  And ultimately, after I want to say four or five years of this, had a very, very, very scary and dangerous experience, which was, again, with no sitters, in other words, no sober person supervising this, any number of things can go wrong. And one is, people can wander around and get themselves into dangerous situations. And in my case, I ended up coming out of my trip very late at night, walking on the side of a street with cars whizzing by me. I mean, that could have very easily been the end. And that scared me enough that I stopped. I said, never again. Too dangerous. And I stopped. I didn't revisit psychedelics

• 53:36Tim Ferriss?

  until, let's just call it, let's think about this, 10 to 15 years later, when a girlfriend at the time, who had some very, very, very difficult traumatic experiences as a child, traveled to Peru, which has its own set of very real risks that we can talk about if we would like, if you were going down explicitly for the purpose of using a psychedelic, most commonly in this case, ayahuasca. But her experience was strong enough and meaningful enough that she came back and said to me that she wished it for me because it was like

• 54:17Tim Ferriss?

  15 years of therapy in two nights. Now, if anyone knows anything about any of the books I've written, or the way that I tend to view the world, that is a very, very effective sales pitch for Tim. 15 years of therapy in two nights? Interesting. And I put that in the back of my mind, did not move ahead with it because of my fear, which I think was very, it was well founded. I had a, what could have been a very, very dangerous experience or fatal experience. Things had to get much worse for me to finally decide to re-enter that world,

• 55:00Tim Ferriss?

  which I did first through a guided psilocybin experience. I did not want to go straight to ayahuasca, which I, to this day, believe is a very, very big gun and can be very destabilizing. I didn't want to go, I didn't want that to be my reintroduction. So I did, I had one guided psilocybin experience, which also lacked much in terms of any type of prep integration or post. So it was effective in the sense that it was like a returning home and it was a familiar feeling that I came out of unscathed. I took an absurdly high dose because I didn't know what I had taken before. So for those people who know anything about it, I began at seven and a half and then did

• 55:44Tim Ferriss?

  a booster at nine, which for me is, it is such an absurd overkill as to almost defy belief at this point. Which, by the way, is a counterproductive. Taking too much is counterproductive. It is not more is better by any stretch of the imagination. Being strapped to the icebreaker is very rarely what someone needs. In any case, came out of it realizing that you could approach this in a safer fashion with a container, physical and otherwise, that allowed you to avoid the risk I had, that it scared me off.

• 56:26Tim Ferriss?

  Then went into the ayahuasca experience about six months, perhaps six months later. Took it very seriously, had people sign non-disclosure agreements, had someone act as my proxy to try to vet people in several different countries and ultimately honed in on someone I spent two nights with. And it was one of the most disorienting, awe-inspiring...

• 56:55Tim Ferriss?

  Experiences of my life without question. The first night, I was prepared for all of the sickness and vomiting and terror that I knew could be part of the experience, and it was blissful. It was an incredible first night. Second night was, without any exaggeration, the most painful experience of my life. At one point, I experienced full-body seizures. So, grand mal, uncontrolled, uncontrollable seizures for about, I would estimate, two and a half hours. Ended up with rug burns all over my face and hands and feet. And was completely lost.

• 57:38Tim Ferriss?

  There was no contact, no footing in this reality whatsoever. And my subjective felt experience was one of being torn apart a thousand times a second, dying a thousand times a second, only to re-manifest and have that repeat infinitum. It was beyond horror. And when I came out of the experience, or the main roller coaster was coasting to an end after, let's call it, six to eight hours, I was partially detached from reality for probably thirty-six hours.

• 58:20Tim Ferriss?

  And I had very fortunately paid someone in advance to babysit me and act as a chaperone for that extended period, in the off-chance that it happened, which ended up being the case. And the entire time, as soon as I was coherent enough to even think in English, which took a while, I thought, "Never again. Never again will I touch anything like this." And it was only six to eight weeks later. And I should mention that my intention, I did have an intention this time going in to the second night specifically, which was to let go of anger towards myself, towards

• 59:01Tim Ferriss?

  other people, a handful of very specific people. And I swore I would never touch this stuff again. It was just too scary, too potentially dangerous. I thought there was a real chance that I could lose my mooring from a sanity perspective and never come back. And I realized six to eight weeks later, after spending a lot of time with someone I've known forever, who I've had a very contentious, emotionally volatile relationship with, lots of triggers, things I thought were beyond repair, meaning couldn't spend more than an hour with this person without feeling extreme agitation and anger well

• 59:44Tim Ferriss?

  up in some fashion. And I had, I had given up on that, changing that long ago. I realized, let's just call it six weeks after my two nights, that 90% of that was gone with this person. And completely gone. And to this day, it has not come back. And that has repeated itself, or I've seen that in a number of my closest relationships. The value of that is hard to overemphasize. It's hard to even put into words. And it's so far outside

• 1:00:28Tim Ferriss?

  any conceptual schema in medicine or therapy that I've run into. It's, it's hard to convey in a way that makes any sense. Because I've had, I've had so many people ask me, well, how did that happen? I do not have a good explanation for that. All I do know is since then, having explored this both on an experiential level, having spent time in several countries, working with people who are some of the best at what they do, and I do think I'm very, very good at vetting that. Hopefully people believe that after looking at the books and the podcasts and so on. I'm really good at getting a hold of people who are really, really good. And I'm very good at vetting. And having explored this space also from

• 1:01:10Tim Ferriss?

  a scientific standpoint, it just gets more interesting. It just gets.

• 1:01:17Tim Ferriss?

  More unbelievable, yet at the same time compelling. And some of the changes I have seen in people are they defy explanation by any conventional means. And I'll throw out a few examples, but before I throw out the examples, I want to make it really clear that these compounds are not for everyone. There are contraindications, things can go wrong, and they're not a panacea. They do not fix everything by any stretch of the imagination, but for certain types

• 1:01:54Tim Ferriss?

  of debilitating conditions, thought patterns, and fear, they are remarkable, really, really impressive to the point that it is outside of the care and feeding and love of my family and myself, my closest friends, it is what I am most focused on, furthering from a scientific standpoint, certainly.

• 1:02:19Peter Attia?

  So you and another friend, who's a mutual friend of ours, so it's all this big circle of people we know, but shared an equally remarkable story with me about a single experience he had had, in this case, it was psilocybin as opposed to ayahuasca, that also took him to this place of, you know, incredible emotional pain that led to a change in a belief. In this case, it was for this individual, it was a belief system around a person who was no longer alive, so someone they had lost. I will never probably forget my first experience with psilocybin for the same reason. It's interesting, I didn't know that that experience you described came from your very second time with ayahuasca.

• 1:03:02Peter Attia?

  I was familiar with that story because you'd shared it with me before, but hadn't pegged it to such an early time. But my first experience with psilocybin, if not for the fact that I had that experience, I wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about right now, because it seems so improbable, implausible, and impossible that...

• 1:03:22Peter Attia?

  Something that occurs over a span of six or eight hours, that is nothing more than these compounds that come from these plants, could so fundamentally alter the way we interact with other people. In my case, it was very similar. It was a very important person in my life, for whom I'd not had a great relationship in a very long time, because I simply had no empathy. Now, Michael Pollan has written about this so eloquently, and I wish I could even half reiterate what he said, because I remember him writing about it going, "That's exactly it." Which is, "For the first time in your life," or at least for me, "I'm not seeing the world through my eyes anymore." And David Foster Wallace has talked about this so eloquently

• 1:04:06Peter Attia?

  in his talk, which is one of my favorite talks, "This is Water." "Every experience we have is through our own eyes." And these plants give you that ability to be out of that. And I still remember watching myself as a 13-year-old boy in this situation, and for the first time ever, not seeing that situation from my vantage point, instead seeing it from the vantage point of others. And that led to the most profound emotional breakdown. Which, again, these are very durable changes. I mean, I'm a couple of years out of this, but I truly believe that 40 years from now, I will still have this exact set of feelings about this particular individual

• 1:04:51Peter Attia?

  and this particular experience. And you're right, there is... How do you explain that?

• 1:04:57Tim Ferriss?

  It's very difficult. And these compounds, many of the classic psychedelics, let's just, for the sake of argument, will leave LSD out of the running for a number of reasons, including just the political PR baggage that that acronym carries. If we're looking at, say, mescaline, which is found in peyote, it's found in the San Pedro or Huachuma cactus in South America, among other places. And we're looking at psilocybin. Found in quite a few different mushrooms. These are compounds that have been used for hundreds of years, probably millennia, by different civilizations. And you have amenita muscaria, which was used in Europe. You have psychedelics that have been used all over the world.

• 1:05:41Tim Ferriss?

  Psychedelics referring to, and there's, there are different ways to try to define this term, but mind manifesting is what the word refers to if you look at the etymology. But I would say experientially, one of the defining characteristics of psychedelics, and we probably will talk about, we might have a chance to talk about MDMA later, which is, in some way can be used for, for many of the same conditions. But I wouldn't consider a psychedelic simply because psychedelics provide what is often referred to at high enough dosages, ego dissolution, or a controlled death experience,

• 1:06:23Tim Ferriss?

  where you cease to exist as the subject who is viewing your experience of reality.

• 1:06:31Peter Attia?

  That is so powerful that I, again, we talk about it with these sort of, in this sort of banal way, but until you experience that, that statement is so difficult to comprehend.

• 1:06:42Tim Ferriss?

  It is. Imagine, imagine if you will, and there are different analogies or metaphors you can use, but imagine if your whole life, you have been the protagonist, at least in your own mind, you are the primary actor in the play of your life. And you've always been the primary actor in the play of your life. There are other actors, of course, all these people you've ever met. And for the first time, you realize that it's a play, and you're sitting in the audience, and you're the playwright. You're the person who has the ability to look at it from every perspective, and you can change the lines of the primary actor.

• 1:07:26Tim Ferriss?

  That person known as Tim, in my case, that person known as Peter. If you want to change their lines, you want to change their backstory, you want to change the stories they tell themselves, you have the ability to do that because you're sitting in the audience as an observer of this person who is known as Peter or Tim. And this is...

• 1:07:46Tim Ferriss?

  Similar to the type of experience that people can have through meditation. And they might describe it as instead of being outside standing in the storm, you're standing inside looking through the window at the storm. Or you are, instead of being inside the washing machine, you're zooming out 18 inches so that you're looking into the washing machine and you're observing what is happening as opposed to being tumbled by it. And in fact, the states achieved through psychedelics and in very experienced meditators, although I'm convinced that you can achieve this state pretty quickly through meditation. It doesn't have to take 20 years. Is remarkably similar as best we know, or there are some similarities, I should say,

• 1:08:29Tim Ferriss?

  neurophysiologically, in the sense that both seem to, not necessarily deactivate, but decrease activity in something referred to as the default mode network. And this default mode network, and Peter, you may do a better job of explaining this. Michael Pollan does a fantastic job of describing this in his book, How to Change Your Mind, which I recommend to everyone.

• 1:08:49Peter Attia?

  Yeah, we'll link to the book. We'll also link to your interview with Michael recently, which was excellent as well. Even if people say they're not quite ready to read the book, at the very least, they should invest the time and listen to the podcast.

• 1:09:00Tim Ferriss?

  And by the way, I would not suggest that anyone jump out and tomorrow go on Craigslist to try to find a shaman to take you through some experience. Even if you felt like that was an inevitable step you ultimately want to take, there are some things that I would recommend first that can by themselves be

• 1:09:20Tim Ferriss?

  exceptionally, exceptionally useful. So to come back to it, though, the ability to, for the first time, view this ego that refers to itself, in my case, as Tim, who is a combination of many different things. The identity that we have had foisted upon us or conditioned into us, but also that we've created for ourselves. By the stories we tell ourselves, that we've always told ourselves. Oh, my, you know, my wife always does this, my dad always does that, I always do this, I never do that. These stories that we've told ourselves for so long, that we've come to accept it as just a fiber in our being.

• 1:10:04Tim Ferriss?

  To look at it and realize that you can reformat almost every part of that, or you can take trauma that you experienced as a child and for the first time ever recontextualize it as an adult, without emotion, to look at it with a level of emotional calmness, so that you can finally close that, that, that circle, is difficult to describe. So I don't want to try too hard to put words to something which, by definition, if we're talking about mystical experiences, which is a corollary to the durability of these effects, let me restate that in English, that is a little easier to understand.

• 1:10:47Tim Ferriss?

  When you look at, for instance, studies that have been done, research that has been done at, whether it's Johns Hopkins, NYU, or other places, and I've gotten to know the team at Johns Hopkins quite well, and I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for what they've, they've done and continue to do. In many of the studies, whether they're looking at terminal cancer patients and end-of-life anxiety, or they're looking at lifelong smokers who came into a study specifically to look at how psilocybin could be used for the cessation of smoking, the duration of effect, the durability

• 1:11:28Tim Ferriss?

  of effect, is very closely linked to something that you, that you could refer to as a mystical experience. And it turns out, as you would hope, there are different types of scales and measurements one can use to determine if something is a mystical experience or not. And there's some debate about this, but there, there are ways that you can assess whether something qualifies as a mystical experience, based on looking at the historical accounts and writings of people we would consider mystics. And one of them is... Ineffability, the inability for someone to verbalize their experience, that the words somehow

• 1:12:10Tim Ferriss?

  do violence to the experience or don't do it justice.

• 1:12:14Peter Attia?

  Pollan gives a great example of that in his book, I believe it was Michael Pollan, in his book, How to Change Your Mind, about you take somebody from, you know, whatever, a thousand years ago, put them in a time machine, bring them to Times Square, let them hang out for five hours, shoot them back. Can they describe what they saw? Not really. They could say that it was big, loud, and bright, but other than that, they couldn't explain what a car is, they couldn't explain what a building is, or a skyscraper, because the vocabulary hadn't even been developed. And that, to me, is like the greatest example, albeit somewhat glib, of this idea of being ineffable, which is, you and I can sit here

• 1:12:55Peter Attia?

  and talk about it in shorthand, but it's very difficult to explain to one of our friends, maybe, who hasn't experienced this. And when you, you know, again, it's, these things sound so goofy when you say them, like these experiences, seeing yourself from outside of yourself, you know, if someone hasn't experienced that, I can understand why they would look at you a little funny and say, okay, intellectually, I understand what you mean by that, but why would that matter? Why would that be profound? How would that disrupt your ego?

• 1:13:23Tim Ferriss?

  It's very difficult to convey. And I would say that what I've experienced and what I've certainly seen and heard other people experience in their reports to me and in writing, in various books that I've read, is the importance of the felt experience. And that, in some senses, it's not that you have a psychedelic experience, you have three realizations, you bring those realizations back to this ordinary reality, you take certain actions based on those realizations, and based on that intellectual legwork.

• 1:14:07Tim Ferriss?

  Your life changes. It is not something strictly in the domain of words and thinking and just thinking harder and working harder. In other words, you're not taking the things that got you here if you've achieved anything professionally or personally. The pro and con list, the spreadsheets, the logical arguments. It's not that you just get a better set of those things that you bring back. It's that you are finally able to see and experience and feel something like empathy deeply for the first time for someone you've never felt it for. Or you feel love for yourself truly for the first time and you think, holy shit. Like, that's what's been missing. I've never even felt that. And if someone had asked me, what does self-love feel like? I wouldn't have had an answer for it.

• 1:14:52Tim Ferriss?

  These are the things that really stick. And I think, given the plasticity of the mind, or the plasticity of the brain, that allow, as one researcher put it to me, you to, instead of going to the top of the ski slope and then taking the tracks that have been worn, and of course, the deeper the tracks get, the harder it is to kind of hop out of them as you're skiing, but to get to the top and to have four fresh feet of powder fall on the entire mountain so that you have the ability to choose an entirely new path, an entirely new record to play. It's hard to verbalize.

• 1:15:28Peter Attia?

  But one way to think about it, for me, has allowed me to come to grips with this because there's a part of me that has sometimes thought, like, this is too good to be true, it's gonna go away. This newfound empathy I have for person X, or this reduction in this horrible negative emotion I've had, that's gonna go away in six months. And I've thought of something, which is, when you look at the opposite of that, which is, how often is a person's life changed for the worse based on one event? And the answer is, all the goddamn time. A child could be abused once and that can change their life forever. And again, we're not going to go into that now because that is its own topic.

• 1:16:10Peter Attia?

  But so many of the horrible habits that we carry into adulthood are really because we never became adults. We are basically adaptive children who are taking on a set of behaviors to protect wounded children. And sometimes those wounds occurred very acutely. And so in many ways, these experiences with psychedelics, if administered correctly in the correct setting, with the correct integration, can act as the exact opposite of a wounding event. In other words, with something that is so acute and so poignant, you can just change the direction of this trajectory, this vehicle. Doesn't necessarily mean it's orthogonal. And of course, there's so much more to it than that.

• 1:16:51Peter Attia?

  Many people go through similar types of abuse and they don't all have the same impact. And similarly, many people can experience a psychedelic and not have the same impact. But I think when I started to think of it in that way, it started to become much more understandable why this could happen, just as something horrible could alter the course of your life. And you know, I'm gonna, one of the podcasts I've already recorded that will be coming out later this summer will be with Corey, who you and I spent a couple of days with up at Kern. It's a maximum security prison. Yeah, when we did this, we spent this time up there with the five enters. The story of Corey's life is unbelievable. And it's just a, again, at no point in there, I think, is Corey using any of these things that happened to him when he was young as excuses for the road he went down.

• 1:17:36Peter Attia?

  But it's impossible to argue that those experiences, many of them very acute, in this moment, on this day, in this place, at this time, completely set him on a different path than he could have been otherwise. So as you said, I love the idea of the stage analogy. Because to me, that's actually one of the best analogies I've ever heard about how mindfulness meditation works. Is it's the awareness that there is a stage. That's simply what it comes down to. And to be able to leave your vantage point as one actor to step back and see that you are an actor on a stage is, I think- One of the most empowering things, and that's why I sort of love this interplay between, you know, meditation and these psychedelic agents.

• 1:18:19Tim Ferriss?

  There's an interplay, there's an interrelatedness, there is a reinforcement, a mutual reinforcement also, which is why I'd love to mention a few things, just to give people a chance to crack their knuckles and stretch for a second in non-psychedelic territory. There are a few things that I'd love to suggest to people, which help you to develop the same types of meta-awareness that you can be thrust into through psychedelics, that serve a purpose whether or not you ever choose to take one of these compounds. One would be certainly

• 1:18:59Tim Ferriss?

  mindfulness meditation, and I think by the time this podcast we're recording right now is live, Sam Harris's Waking Up app, I think is just tremendous. I think it does an exceptionally, exceptionally good job of this. And there's certainly guided meditations. If you search, say, mindfulness meditation, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brock, both outstanding. Sam Harris also has some guided meditations that he's recorded. Awareness meditation, and Peter, feel free to jump in if I don't do this justice, but awareness meditation being different from, say, other forms of meditation, many of which I have used and still use on occasion,

• 1:19:40Tim Ferriss?

  perhaps one of the more popular of which being, say, transcendental meditation, mantra-based. It is a concentration practice where you are repeating a mantra to yourself over and over and over and over again, as a way to hone concentration and, although not everyone's going to love this description, to give your psyche and self a break from the incessant monkey mind. And you really can reach a transcendent space where you feel like you are a point of consciousness floating, if you do the 20 minutes twice a day very consistently. That is a concentration practice. If you were thinking of a candle flame and that were a focal point for a period of meditation, whenever you found yourself swept up in thought,

• 1:20:23Tim Ferriss?

  you return to a candle flame. That would also be a concentration practice. If you're doing, there are many also within awareness meditation, there are different types, but if you're doing, say, something referred to as, I think it's sometimes called open monitoring. Where you're paying attention to anything that comes up as it comes up. And there are different ways to approach this, but it very often begins with the breath. So it is in some sense, a concentration practice, but you're focusing on the breath. You're not chasing it. You're simply observing it. Then you focus on sounds, then you focus on any discomfort or weight that you feel in your body. Then you perhaps later, after 10 sessions, 10 daily sessions, begin to practice with your eyes

• 1:21:07Tim Ferriss?

  open, which I had never really done before Sam's app, which I found tremendously helpful as a bridge into then waking reality. These are all practices that help you to spot the gap between sensory input and cognitive response. Right? So that you become more response able in so much as you, you have a tiny gap within which you can choose your response as opposed to simply reflexively going through life like some type of slug that's been shocked in a Skinner box or something.

• 1:21:51Tim Ferriss?

  And you, you have more optionality. You suddenly realize there are just more options on the menu than, oh, whenever so and so does this, I always get pissed off. There are more options on the menu. And that, by the way, having that basic ability, having the, just the ABCs of that awareness and control will give you a tremendous advantage and allow you to get very often much more value out of any psychedelic experience. Because you will have had, let's just call it 50 sessions on a boogie board before they're like, oh, cool, here's a surfboard. It's hurricane season. Have fun. Good luck. Like, maybe you catch a wave. Chances are, your first experience is going to be getting tumbled a lot.

• 1:22:36Tim Ferriss?

  And you can accelerate the, you can steepen the learning curve really dramatically for later getting more out of psychedelics very often, if you develop some of this basic awareness beforehand.

• 1:22:50Peter Attia?

  I'm kind of amazed at how difficult it is for me to convince some of my patients at the importance of meditation. And I find sometimes by just telling them about my own struggles and my own journey to accept, first of all, that this was something that was beneficial even when it didn't feel beneficial, and two, to realize that you have to sort of figure out what's going to work for you, but it's worth making that effort. I agree with you. I think that just even putting the apps aside, it's different, people have different ways of explaining things. And I remember a math professor I had in college, and this was early, this might have been like, I must have been, I was either a freshman or a sophomore, but he said something that always resonated with me, because now you were sort of getting outside of like,

• 1:23:35Peter Attia?

  you know, rudimentary calculus and stuff, and mathematics was starting to get very abstract. And he said, "Look, if you're reading a proof and you don't understand it, assume that the person who is presenting it doesn't know how to present it to you, find somebody else." And so I think that that really holds also for meditation, which is, there are just going to be some people who guide in a way that you're willing to be guided. And so you shouldn't be put off if someone's listening to this thinking, "Oh, you know, every time I try meditation, it doesn't work for me," or something like that. And so I don't want to sort of name the apps I went through, but there were many apps that I went through that just didn't resonate for me. You know, just the way that they talked about this didn't make sense to me. But then when you find the ones that do, and there are several that do for me, including

• 1:24:19Peter Attia?

  Sam's Waking Up, which you and I have been lucky enough, along with a number of other folks, to get the beta version of that, which, God, it's been six months. It's been a while. Yeah, I remember Sam giving it to me in January. The way Sam explains it really resonates with me, and there are others that do so the same. Jeff Warren is also one of the guides on Dan Harris, is no relation to Sam Harris, 10% Happier. I just love the way he explains stuff. And so, you know, I would say to anybody who's listening to this, who's feeling sort of bearish on meditation, try a different app. Try a different guide. Try a different book. Try another way. Keep going till you find someone who can. Walk you through how to do this in a way that resonates.

• 1:25:03Tim Ferriss?

  And I'll just mention two others, since they're very easy to test. Another is Headspace, the 10 in 10 program, I think is a very, very well-done format for beginning this. It's 10 minutes a day for 10 days, and it's quite well-done. Calm for some people who like the background nature sounds, for instance. I've used that app and many of my friends really find that to be with a female guide to be their preferred mode of meditation. And then you can meditate in silence. You can consider taking a TM course, as I did, which actually really served to kickstart a lot of my meditation, because it cost money, so I had that sunk cost working in my favor.

• 1:25:46Tim Ferriss?

  And it's effectively four lunch breaks over four days, I want to say, if I'm remembering correctly. And you have to meditate in between those sessions. So you have homework and you are going to feel like a doofus and a disappointment and be embarrassed if you don't do those sessions. So you have someone holding you accountable, i.e. the teacher, to actually put this into practice for at least a four-day period. And that in and of itself, I pushed off for so long, for so, so long. And I remember Chase Jarvis, I'll give him credit again, at one point said, "Tim, you can afford it. It worked for me. What is the downside if it doesn't work for you?

• 1:26:30Tim Ferriss?

  You still get to meditate with someone else for four days. Might that be worth it?" And I didn't have a good counterargument, so eventually I acquiesced and took that step, which was very, it was one of the first times I finally felt what

• 1:26:51Tim Ferriss?

  I had the firsthand experience of what meditation could deliver, which is in some ways equally difficult to describe as the psychedelic experience. When you have your first session where you've completely lost any rumination or compulsive thinking about your to-do list, and it might just be the last five minutes of a 20-minute session, and you come out of it and you just feel this serene peace that perhaps you haven't even touched on for 10 years. You go, "Oh, okay. Now I get it. If this is something that I could actually call upon reliably, that is a superpower." And for that reason, I would say that if you're going to commit to this,

• 1:27:35Tim Ferriss?

  commit to it like you would a workout program or a diet. You don't go to the gym once and come back and wake up with six-pack abs the next morning. For me at least, if I take a break and there are periods when I lapse...

• 1:27:48Peter Attia?

  Especially, by the way, if you eat like we've eaten in Austin.

• 1:27:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, we have eaten. There's so much good food here. You have to be very careful about portion control. But if you want to get a taste for what meditation can do, I would say, commit to 10 days. And for me at least, if for whatever reason I lapse, and there are certainly periods when I lapse. This happens to me with diet habits, it happens to me with exercise, and occasionally it's like, "Ah, you know what? I haven't meditated for two weeks," for whatever number of reasons. It will take me, I would say, five to seven days to finally stop grinding gears and shift into a calmer state. There's a certain loading phase, almost, like creatine or something. It takes me five to seven days to click into that different gear,

• 1:28:32Tim Ferriss?

  at which point I go, "Oh, yes. This is why it's so important. Now I remember."

• 1:28:38Peter Attia?

  Yeah, there's a great book out there called Altered States, which I read this year that I think does a great job of parsing that concept out, which is...

• 1:28:46Tim Ferriss?

  Is it Altered States or Altered Traits?

• 1:28:49Peter Attia?

  Oh, it's Altered Traits, and it makes the point that it's not about the state. Thank you for that correction. We'd have had a whole bunch of people potentially going to Amazon going, "I can't find this book." Or maybe that book does exist and it's completely the wrong book. But that's exactly the point, right? Which is that we don't meditate for the state. The state can be pleasurable. I, to be honest, I don't find it that pleasurable. I don't actually enjoy meditating that much. Sometimes I do, but, but as many times as I do, I, it's difficult for me. It's work. It's, sometimes, truthfully, it feels like I suck. Like, I'm, boy, it's really amazing, the frequency with which thoughts keep entering my mind. I think, I forget who, and again, I can't remember if it was Sam Harris or a different guide

• 1:29:32Peter Attia?

  who made this point, which was, actually, I think, I think it was actually Jeff Warren, which was, he described it as, "The bicep curl of the brain is not the cessation of thought. It's the recognition of the thought that then allows you to go back to the breath or whatever the focus is." And, boy, that really, again, that's just an example of like, that's not a particularly like profound, difficult to understand concept, but it's exactly what I needed to hear, which is, don't be discouraged that you keep having thoughts. That's the exercise. The exercise is acknowledging it, recognizing it, going back to the focus, which in this case could be the breath or a sound or something like that. And so it's not about that state that you may or may not achieve, just as some people

• 1:30:17Peter Attia?

  who, like you and I, we love exercising, so we actually get a pretty good state out of it. I, I actually, if exercise provided no benefit, I would still do it, just because of how I feel when I do it. But for many people, that's not the case, but exercise is still valuable. If you spend an hour a day exercising, it's really what it's, what's what it's doing for you that other 23 hours. So that's, I guess that would be the next thing I would say to anybody listening to this who's tried meditation, who has found it to be unpleasurable or uninteresting or whatever, it's like, that's okay. You're not doing it for what you experience in that 20 minutes.

• 1:30:47Tim Ferriss?

  I would also add, and this just, just occurred to me, because I think you're, you're in some ways alluding to this, that in my experience, having observed hundreds of thousands of listeners and readers, attempt or not attempt, succeed or not succeed with different forms of meditation, it's very important, and this applies to many, many different things, including physical exercise as far as, as I'm concerned, but the good program that you follow, I, let's, let's lower it even further. The consistent program that you follow is better than the perfect program that you quit. So, if you're having trouble following a meditation program, and you've committed to

• 1:31:32Tim Ferriss?

  doing it daily, which is a, a very... Important commitment in the beginning, keep lowering the bar. If you think 20 minutes is too much, do 10 minutes. 10 minutes is too much, do five minutes. If concentration meditation is too difficult, use a guided meditation. And I recall at one point, there were two things that I recall having been said to me. I think Tara Brock mentioned the first, I could be misattributing, but I think it was Tara Brock who first said this to me. Her book Radical Acceptance, by the way, ties into everything that we're talking about beautifully. It had a huge impact on me and has had a huge impact on many people. It's the type of title that's going to scare off a lot of people

• 1:32:17Tim Ferriss?

  because I think it's going to be a bunch of woo-woo, hand-wavy stuff. There's a little bit of woo in there, but it is a incredibly good book, Radical Acceptance. If you have any type of emotional patterns or thought patterns that seem to control you as opposed to the other way around, this is a worthwhile book. And her guided meditation's very good, but we were chatting, I had her on the podcast, on my own podcast, and I believe it was Tara who said, "The repetition, if we're doing the bicep curl, isn't the 20-minute session where you sit perfectly without having a single extraneous thought occur. The repetition is when you get distracted and something comes up, and then bringing it back to the breath. So you should be happy when that happens because that is the work.

• 1:33:02Tim Ferriss?

  The work isn't doing it perfectly every time."

• 1:33:04Peter Attia?

  It took me three years to understand that.

• 1:33:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:08Peter Attia?

  Three years of frustration and, "Am I doing this right? And, you know, why can't I stop thinking?" And, and just all of this misunderstanding. But, boy, once you get what the bicep curl is...

• 1:33:22Tim Ferriss?

  It's freeing and it makes the pass/fail bar lower, which for many of the people who most need meditation, which I think has a branding problem. Like, it should be called, you know, Emotional Non-Activity Training or something that sounds very appealing to, you know, type A-driven people.

• 1:33:42Tim Ferriss?

  Emotional non-reactivity conditioning program. There you go. Or just warm bath for the mind might be appealing to other people. But meditation as such, it's a word that's become, it's so overused and unfortunately could use a rebrand. But for the time being, meditation and a successful meditation session should in the beginning be as easy as possible to fit into your life. You need to stack the deck, particularly in the beginning. And TM, Transcendental Meditation, was very good at instilling this in the training, for me at least. They said, "If you say the mantra once in a session, that is a successful session. You have 20 minutes to say a two-syllable mantra once.

• 1:34:27Tim Ferriss?

  That's a successful session." And you might even drop it further and say, "You know what? This is the goal. This would be miraculous. But if I just sit for 20 minutes with my eyes closed, that's a successful meditation session." And sometimes I've honestly wondered how much of the benefit comes from some of the mental practices versus just sitting still and breathing with my eyes closed.

• 1:34:50Peter Attia?

  Well, that's actually really interesting. That gets to something I want to talk a little bit about, which is the study of psychedelics. But while we're on that topic, it's hard to sometimes study these things because of these performance biases, right? It's hard to disaggregate the effect of just sitting there for 20 minutes. And luckily, some of those experiments have been done, which is, you know, you take a group and instead of saying the control group just doesn't do anything, maybe you have the control group sit in silence for 20 minutes. And then you can sort of disaggregate those things. So Tim, you've spoken with me quite a bit about your interest in funding science, and that goes back to even before the discussion of psychedelics. But very recently, you've made a pretty large commitment. Are you comfortable talking about that publicly?

• 1:35:35Tim Ferriss?

  I am. I am very, very comfortable talking about publicly. I have almost entirely redirected not just what I would have invested in startups, but a multiple of that into scientific research. So I've made the commitment for me, which is by far the largest commitment to not just science, but even any given startup that I've ever made financially. And that's a million dollars, a minimum of a million dollars over the next several years. Several meaning three or four. And I expect I'll exceed that one million dollar amount with primarily

• 1:36:12Tim Ferriss?

  a focus on psilocybin and MDMA, but that could extend to other compounds, which, which I also find to be understudied and that have been in some ways shelved for decades for primarily political and not scientifically justifiable reasons.

• 1:36:35Peter Attia?

  When we started talking about this, when you were thinking about it, I remember one of the stories that you really liked was a relatively unknown story in the world of philanthropy, unless you dig deep in the annals about a woman by the name of Catherine McCormick. That, that story really resonated with you. What was it about that story?

• 1:36:52Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you should, you should tell this story because I think it's, it's so noteworthy on a number of different levels. But what struck me was how if timed right and if thought about intelligently, where you're focusing on points of leverage, how even a single person with relatively moderate amounts of investment, and moderate is relative, right? But

• 1:37:21Tim Ferriss?

  let me rephrase that. How, how someone or a small group of people, if concentrating on points of leverage in furthering, in this case, scientific studies can really bend the arc of history.

• 1:37:36Tim Ferriss?

  In a way that most people would find unbelievable. Because when folks think of, say, pharma or bringing a new drug to market in the largest scale senses, it's billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars. But that story was appealing to me because, on many levels, but what I'd love to do is have you tell it and then I will, I will point out the, the, the parts, if this were a Kindle chapter, which parts I would highlight to go back to to remind myself of certain things. But why don't you tell the story? Because it's such a great example of what

• 1:38:18Tim Ferriss?

  one person or a small group of committed people can do. I'll leave it at that.

• 1:38:23Peter Attia?

  Well, it can be, probably be read about more eloquently than I can restate it, but the gist of it was Catherine McCormick, in I believe the early 60s or late 50s, met a gentleman, I believe his name was Gregory Pincus, if I'm not mistaken.

• 1:38:36Tim Ferriss?

  I think that's right, at a, at a dinner party or a cocktail party.

• 1:38:39Peter Attia?

  Yeah. And, and basically, he explained to her that he was pretty convinced he could chemically synthesize hormones that could be served as a birth control pill or serve as a birth control pill for women.

• 1:38:51Tim Ferriss?

  And she was no dummy herself. She went to, was MIT.

• 1:38:54Peter Attia?

  Yeah, I believe so.

• 1:38:55Tim Ferriss?

  And had been involved with also funding housing for additional female students so they could attend.

• 1:39:00Peter Attia?

  Yeah. And her hypothesis was if we could create a birth control pill, we could completely change the interaction that women can have with education, with work, with the family balance, et cetera. Now, we take this, we listen to this story today and we think, well, what's the big deal? Like, so what? She funded the research for the birth control pill. But the reality of it is, at the time, again, I can't remember, I must have the dates wrong, but certainly it was long enough ago that this was viewed as an absolute no-go. I mean, there was simply, you know, birth control was such a taboo. And what's really interesting is she decided to fund something that was incredibly risky, that no pharma company was willing to touch with a 10-foot pole because it was viewed as

• 1:39:45Peter Attia?

  just a way to sink money into a bottomless pit that could never achieve the regulatory approval. And using, again, a relatively small sum of money, and I believe in today's dollars, it's to the tune of about $25 million, she sunk into the work of this guy, Pincus, and one other gentleman whose name is escaping me.

• 1:40:06Tim Ferriss?

  Over the span of something like...

• 1:40:08Peter Attia?

  About a decade.

• 1:40:09Tim Ferriss?

  About a decade.

• 1:40:09Peter Attia?

  Yeah, maybe eight years. And when you, my favorite graph that I ever saw, which was kind of the holy shit moment, was the graph of the number of women in graduate schools, professional school, law school, business school, whatever, pre and post the introduction of the birth control pill. And it's, you don't get to see a lot of hockey sticks, you know? As one of my friends once put it, "It's really cool when the data don't need statistics to be analyzed." It's not like, "Well, there was a statistically significant increase in the rate at which women entered the workforce." No, no, like, you didn't even have to say the word "statistically significant." It was a step function change. And, I don't know, I just, I thought that was such an interesting story, and I remember

• 1:40:50Peter Attia?

  when you and I were talking about this a while ago, I don't even know why I told you the story, but you seemed to really grip to it.

• 1:40:57Tim Ferriss?

  There were many reasons for it. I think partially, being at the time in Silicon Valley and surrounded by venture capital, I saw some of the stupidest, I don't know how else to put it, just stupidest, non-viable ideas raise tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars. Let's just stick with...

• 1:41:19Peter Attia?

  Philanthropic dollars?

• 1:41:20Tim Ferriss?

  No, I mean for profit.

• 1:41:21Peter Attia?

  Okay.

• 1:41:22Tim Ferriss?

  Startups, repeatedly. I mean, you just saw dozens and hundreds of examples over time of this. And it struck me that we find ourselves in a unique time, which supposes something that goes without saying, every time is a unique time, but in the sense that, long ago, this is worth discussing for a quick second, psychedelics, specifically LSD...

• 1:41:49Tim Ferriss?

  Were through the controlled, I think it's the Controlled Substances Act, scheduled, put into the Schedule I class of drug classification, which means high potential for addiction, no known medical or no medical application, no demonstrated medical application, putting them in the same class as heroin.

• 1:42:09Peter Attia?

  And to be clear for the listener who might not appreciate that, even cocaine is Schedule II.

• 1:42:14Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:42:15Peter Attia?

  Which means it still has potential for addiction that everybody acknowledges, but it does have at least one viable medical application, which is, it turns out to be a pretty good local anesthetic in the nose, which is ironic, of course, but it therefore does have a medical use. And it's used routinely in ENT surgery.

• 1:42:33Tim Ferriss?

  So if these compounds are so useful, if they can have some of the effects without guarantee, of course, it's not batting a thousand every time, if you have 100 people at random who are using these, some with direction, some without, you're not going to have a perfect record, but if, if even some of the time, the effects can be achieved, the outcomes can be seen that we're discussing, how did these compounds, including LSD, end up in this category? And there, it's a, it's a multifactorial problem, and it's hard to say there's one causal agent, but there are few things that happened at the time. Number one, many people don't realize pollen gets into this, it's really fascinating, but

• 1:43:15Tim Ferriss?

  LSD-25, which was first isolated or synthesized by Albert Hoffman, was developed on the part or on behalf of a pharma company. It was later used-

• 1:43:27Peter Attia?

  It was Roche, correct?

• 1:43:28Tim Ferriss?

  I want to say it was Sandoz.

• 1:43:29Peter Attia?

  Oh, you're right, you're right. It was Sandoz.

• 1:43:31Tim Ferriss?

  And then it was later used in a program that, if I'm remembering correctly, was CIA-led, called MKUltra, where it might be used as a truth serum for interrogations and things of this type, or to confuse and sabotage enemies of the state. And it got out into the wild, and then the adventure began, so to speak. And LSD was widely distributed, and at the time, you had parents who had never experienced psychedelics. We were going into the Vietnam era and we had a number of characters come on to the

• 1:44:14Tim Ferriss?

  scene in very high-profile ways, one of them being, and he cannot be, even though he is often given the blame, I don't think it's it's fair to do this unilaterally, but Tim Leary came onto the scene. He was at Harvard, as was Richard Alpert, who later became Ram Dass. And the things exploded at Harvard and they they were both, I believe, fired. I don't think they resigned preemptively because psilocybin was given to an undergraduate when it was only supposed to be administered to graduate students. And at some point, Leary decided that science was too slow and that the way to affect cultural change

• 1:44:56Tim Ferriss?

  was to have tens of millions of people. He had a specific number in mind and that that would effectively lead to a tipping point where all of these positive effects on society would be inevitable. And if you if you think about the cultural setting, you have a lot of young people being told to to drop out of school, to resist war efforts, and all of that made a number of figures, including Leary, very high-profile targets that could not, in some ways, be ignored by the administration. And so Nixon famously said, Timothy Leary is the most dangerous man in America, and you had parents who could

• 1:45:38Tim Ferriss?

  not in any way conceive of the experiences that their children were having on these compounds. And that, along with dozens of other things, was a recipe for political crackdown, which is exactly what happened. What you have now is you have parents who are, well, in many cases, certainly products of the 60s, who have had psychedelic experiences. You have people who are in positions of power or in Regulatory organizations who have, in some cases, experienced psychedelics. You also have studies now being conducted, even though it's with great difficulty because of all of the approvals and DEA oversight and so on that's required, that are going

• 1:46:21Tim Ferriss?

  back to the dozens and hundreds of studies that were performed before the crackdown and rescheduling and applying more rigorous scientific standards. And that is combined with a number of, as you mentioned earlier, epidemic level problems that we're experiencing that are costing, I would have to imagine, billions upon billions of dollars, namely, opiate addiction, depression, PTSD, right? If you add up the costs associated with those three, if we want to be a little crass about it and just look at the profit-loss, it makes a lot of sense, based on the data thus far, to explore some of these compounds.

• 1:47:05Tim Ferriss?

  And that's part of the reason why, for instance, in the case of MDMA and PTSD, the FDA has granted MDMA breakthrough therapy designation, which means that not only is the process expedited for ultimately Phase III trials, that the FDA is, in a sense, a collaborator. So instead of saying, "All right, your methodology is approved," and I'm going to apologize in advance, this is not, Phase III trials are not my area of expertise, so if I make any, if I misspeak, I apologize, and certainly feel free to correct me in comments somewhere. But the FDA is effectively a partner who helps them to navigate the entire process. Instead of saying, "Your methodology is approved, see you in three years, and you're going

• 1:47:48Tim Ferriss?

  to get a pass/fail," which is a precarious position for any compound, let alone something that is currently scheduled the way that MDMA is. And we don't have to get into it right now, but there's also something called Special Protocol Assessment, SPA, which should, hopefully, if the stars align in some ways, which I think they very well might, give MDMA a very high probability of ultimately being prescribable and used in supervised settings. It would not be a take-home drug, in other words. But PTSD, and specifically with respect to, let's say, returning war veterans or victims of sexual abuse, is a...

• 1:48:31Tim Ferriss?

  It is a highly bipartisan issue, or I should better say it's a nonpartisan issue. It's very hard for someone to say fuck the vets.

• 1:48:40Tim Ferriss?

  So the risk of that getting shot down politically, I'm not going to say is zero because it's never zero, but it's, there are more attractive targets. If you're looking for reelection or looking for press time, there are safer targets to go after to achieve that than this. And then within the scientific community, looking at psilocybin, which there are at least two entities right now that are presenting phase two data to the FDA. And I'm optimistic that within the next year, at least one of them will proceed into phase three trials. Psilocybin has shown remarkable efficacy, at least based on preliminary data, for end of life, or I should say event-based

• 1:49:21Tim Ferriss?

  depression in people with terminal diagnoses, terminal cancer diagnoses. And that may end up getting extended to major depressive disorder, which is to be continued, to be determined. But I've already helped to raise funding and also applied funding myself to a study that will be looking at treatment-resistant depression at Johns Hopkins utilizing psilocybin. And that means, I believe, by the book, chronic depression that has failed at least two interventions or two other treatments.

• 1:49:56Peter Attia?

  Are there other agents, Tim? I mean loosely speaking, and this is a gross oversimplification, and we will probably get into a few of these, time permitting. Certainly, as you said, MDMA has really shown pretty remarkable efficacy in PTSD.

• 1:50:08Tim Ferriss?

  It's wild. It's one of those similar to the graph you mentioned related to McCormick.

• 1:50:14Peter Attia?

  Yeah, it's just not subtle.

• 1:50:15Tim Ferriss?

  It's not subtle.

• 1:50:16Peter Attia?

  You don't need the P value to see the difference.

• 1:50:18Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, no. It's, I think I'm getting this right. Anyone interested can certainly look up MAPS. You can find them at MAPS.org, who have spearheaded a lot of this. But I believe that psychotherapy alone, something like 27% effective at reducing the scale measurement. And I'm ad-libbing a little bit here, but let's just say that there is a rating of zero. To 10 for determining the severity of PTSD, anything above a three is PTSD. Something along those lines. This is a bit of ad lib, but I think it's something between 20 and 27% decreased to below a three. So they were no longer, they would no longer be diagnosed as having PTSD with psychotherapy alone. I don't remember the timeframe.

• 1:51:01Tim Ferriss?

  When psychotherapy was combined with MDMA was something like 70%. I mean, it just nuts out a little.

• 1:51:06Peter Attia?

  So which again, we could spend just two hours just talking about the role, the relationship of trauma and psychological damage and how MDMA can help with that. The other thing, of course, which we talked about very briefly earlier was iboga and ibogaine in the treatment of opiate addiction, which probably has the worst success rate amongst societal epidemics that are being treated by conventional means. I mean, there really aren't great options for, for the individuals with, with opiate addiction. And then of course, psilocybin, as you said, on end of life depression, major depressive along with smoking cessation. I heard it's even being looked at now for alcoholism.

• 1:51:45Tim Ferriss?

  It is, and there are a few predominant classes people can look at when it comes to psychedelics. I believe you have the, they're the tryptamines and then the phenethylamines, I believe it is, but we don't have to get into all that partially because I'll just embarrass myself. But coming back to the default mode network, which I think is worth returning to for a second, which listeners might recall is this collection of different parts of the brain that appear to be active when you are doing nothing. What does doing nothing mean? And this was discovered, I believe, in part when scientists were doing calibrations within FMRI machines. They said, all right, just do nothing. We want to get a baseline.

• 1:52:26Peter Attia?

  And this is the part of the brain that's keeping lighting up.

• 1:52:28Tim Ferriss?

  What the hell is going on? And it appears to be highly activated when people are engaging in any type of self referential thinking. I, how does it affect? So not only like think about fear, but what makes you fear? What makes you fearful? Okay, boom. And then default mode network seems to light up. Any type of temporal projection? In other words, thinking about the past, thinking about the future? Seems to also light this up. And Pauline does a great job of digging into this in the book. And a number of people have written about this in very eloquent terms. Robin Carhart-Harris out of the UK is one of them. But to just pose a question that I think is something that's being explored currently.

• 1:53:13Tim Ferriss?

  If, say, anxiety is being stuck in the future and being depressed is being stuck in the past, what happens if you're able to temporarily suspend or deactivate that system to some extent? And to give yourself that witness perspective so you can look at yourself without being yourself. And the implication, if many of these psychedelic compounds are able to achieve that, is, and even Tom Insal, who I think is the former head of the National Institute on or of Mental Health, NIMH. If you look at OCD, you look at different types of depression, different types of anxiety and so on, these are nice, these are very cleanly separated out in some type of, what

• 1:53:56Tim Ferriss?

  is the term for this desk reference that people use for? The DSM. DSM, in the DSM. But they may all be slightly different species of the same thing. Which is why something like psilocybin appears to be LSD, very similar story. Mescaline, probably very similar story at high enough doses, can be used for anything that appears to involve obsessive thought patterns or behaviors. That includes alcoholism, it includes smoking, it includes opiate addiction. And there are studies that are seeking funding right now, I know, at Johns Hopkins related

• 1:54:37Tim Ferriss?

  to opiate addiction through the lens of psilocybin treatment, which I'm very, very interested in. Eating disorders, like anorexia, these may in fact be

• 1:54:50Tim Ferriss?

  Very interrelated phenomena and conditions. So you mentioned a few that are LSD, I think, is off the table, not for scientific reasons, but for political reasons. It's just too loaded. There's too much baggage. And let us not forget that the media plays a very large role in how politics respond to things. And in today's day and age, I do not have a high level of confidence that LSD, since it was once painted as the villain, is not, it's too seductive, I think, in a clickbait world, to not fall into the same bear trap in a way. So psilocybin, then you have MDMA, which is thought by, referred to as some people

• 1:55:35Tim Ferriss?

  as an anactogen or an pathogen. This is not, probably not scientifically too granularly accurate, but it appears to tone down, that's not a scientific term, but tone down the amygdala and fear response that we have to, say, recalling or reliving traumatic events. And it allows us to, people, say, with PTSD, who have seen their friends' heads blown off, or had to blow other people's heads off, whatever it might be, people have been raped, et cetera, to, in some sense, clean up a very messy experience that did a lot of damage.

• 1:56:19Tim Ferriss?

  And to help people to heal themselves in nonverbal ways. This is really key. It's very, it's very hard for many people to talk their way out of something they didn't talk their way into.

• 1:56:33Peter Attia?

  That's so well said. I mean, you said in one sentence what I tried to say in like 20 sentences a while ago about the experiences that can cause pain can be so jarring that it should be at least acknowledged or considered that equally jarring chemical experiences might be necessary to put that new powder on the slope.

• 1:56:54Tim Ferriss?

  Definitely. So you have MDMA. MDMA, I'll be honest, I was biased in some ways against MDMA for a long time because A, I didn't have much personal experience with anything chemically related to MDMA. I had a fear associated with it because of research, which I think has since been largely debunked in terms of risks for people who are predisposed to depression, for instance. It was also, at one point, viewed as, and is still used recreational as a party drug. And I've really been swayed to the other side. I'm very bullish on MDMA

• 1:57:36Tim Ferriss?

  as a therapy. I think that it is extremely, it's an extremely powerful and flexible tool that does not entail the type of perceptual distortion that some of these psychedelics do. Which is not to say I am not bullish on psychedelics, I am, but it requires much more sophisticated training to administer. So MDMA. Iboga and ibogaine.

• 1:58:02Peter Attia?

  Going back to MDMA, I do think it is important to point out, if anybody's listening to this thinking, well, of all of these compounds, MDMA is pretty easy to get and, you know, you can get it packaged in other things and it's ecstasy, etc. But this goes back to intent, setting, and integration. I really do not, I am not convinced that just taking MDMA, going to a party, is somehow going to unwind any of these problems. I mean, this really...

• 1:58:28Tim Ferriss?

  I would go further than that and I would bet against it. If someone gave me a hundred grand and they said, alright, this person is gonna take MDMA and go to a party 10 times, what is the likelihood that it's going to fix X longstanding problem? I'd go $100,000, every single dollar against. I would short it. And I know people, in fact, who have used MDMA recreationally and then used it in supervised settings and it is as if they are taking a different drug.

• 1:58:58Peter Attia?

  Yeah, that just can't be overstated. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a doctor and I'm supposed to say something responsible, but I mean that regardless. And that, for me, is the urgency around this stuff. I think about, I think about myself, frankly, but I think about my patients. And I think about a lot of my patients that would benefit from these things that I've experienced, or even things that I haven't experienced, that I've seen people experience, and I... I've never had such a sense of urgency around this. I mean, prior to this, the most urgency I ever had was waiting for PCSK9 inhibitors to come on the market when I read that first paper in the New England Journal of Medicine about 12 years ago on the discovery of this type of, you know, these individuals who had missense mutations in that enzyme that lowered

• 1:59:41Peter Attia?

  their LDL significantly. But, boy, the anxiety might be the wrong word, but the anticipation I had for that class of drugs, which anybody listening to this is probably falling asleep thinking, "You're an interesting guy if that's what was keeping you up at night waiting for that drug." But this takes it to another level, which is, almost nobody I know has not been traumatized on some level. And it doesn't always have to be something that is so obvious. So, you know, we've all been traumatized, we've all sort of been hurt, we're all dealing with these things. And yet, I feel, how quickly can these things go through this regulatory pathway to get into the hands of people who would know how to administer them? I certainly wouldn't, right? Even if these things were legal today, that's

• 2:00:23Peter Attia?

  only half the battle. It's can you create enough practitioners that know, you know, how to select the right patients and how to apply the treatment? Because this is, in many ways, harder than any other treatments we have today. You know, people talk today about the importance of combining psychotherapy with antidepressants, but that's really the tip of the iceberg compared to this stuff.

• 2:00:44Tim Ferriss?

  And it's also tricky from a commercial standpoint, in so much as part of the reason these compounds haven't been picked up like a football and run to the end zone by Big Pharma, is that many of these studies only involve two or three sessions with psilocybin, a naturally occurring molecule. In these cases, it's synthesized, but there is a lot more money to be made in something that you can charge an arm and a leg for, that you have to take on a daily basis, or... On every other day basis indefinitely as opposed to two or three times with some

• 2:01:23Tim Ferriss?

  pre-work and post-work with durable effects in many cases, that's financially an unattractive model to many people. And I think it's a mistake. There are some for-profit companies out there, I should say startups, who are going after this. And I'll be very disappointed if they try to make their money on the molecule by blocking other people from doing research or manufacturing and good manufacturing in GMP facilities and so on. Rather, I think they should make their money on the services, on the therapy. So that's maybe a separate discussion.

• 2:01:55Peter Attia?

  Now, why has Ibogaine taken the longest track? And why is that still the one that seems to have gained the least traction for testing in the United States? I've spoken to a number of people, philanthropists, who are really interested in this opiate addiction problem, and yet they are understandably not interested in funding research outside of the United States. And basically, their view is until the DEA and the FDA allow for a similar pathway, we're not interested in funding this. And I worry that there's a bit of a stalemate there. Is this thawing?

• 2:02:28Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think it is yet to thaw. There are some researchers, and I'm blanking on names, I apologize, but there are a number of researchers who are doing very good work looking at Ibogaine and have been studying it, Iboga and Ibogaine, in the United States. Part of what makes Ibogaine tricky, if on one end of the spectrum you have MDMA, which again, I don't consider a classical psychedelic, but as a tool that can be applied to some of the same conditions. What makes MDMA attractive is general low toxicity, relative ease of administration, short duration, if we're looking at, I want to say, four to six hours, let's say, maybe a little bit longer, four to eight hours.

• 2:03:13Tim Ferriss?

  Ibogaine falls on the opposite end of the spectrum. Now, before we get to what puts it on the opposite end of the spectrum, I should say I know people very directly who had family members who were heroin addicts and say prostituting themselves, I mean, on death's door. If they weren't going to die from an overdose, they might die from getting shot in the street. And in a case like that, where nothing else has worked, including some, say, alternatives like methadone, I've seen cases where ibogaine has worked.

• 2:03:45Peter Attia?

  I mean, don't the practitioners of this offer that at one year, the recidivism is only 20%?

• 2:03:52Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know the exact numbers, but that's, given what else I have seen with these compounds, it wouldn't... I don't find that unbelievable.

• 2:04:03Peter Attia?

  Yeah, if I'm recalling, that's only with two weeks of intervention. Now, these are people that are put into a, you know, a very heavily supervised detox environment where the iboga and the ibogaine itself are administered over a one-week period outside of the, you know, pre and post-integration. So I think the entire therapy, if I recall, was about six weeks.

• 2:04:25Tim Ferriss?

  There are, they're in many different formats, and I know people who have been involved with running some of these clinics. And certainly there are people like Gabor Maté, who have looked at opiate addiction very closely, but ended up, as I understand it at least, looking at ayahuasca and others for helping people who are addicted to opiates. Ibogaine is very... It's unlike some of the others, such as psilocybin, in that it acts on a whole slew of different receptors. And let's discuss what puts it on the opposite end. So, yes, it can have these seemingly miraculous effects on opiate addiction.

• 2:05:10Tim Ferriss?

  And part of the reason for that experientially is, I understand it, and I've never gone for a full ride ibogaine or iboga psychedelic experience, and I have no desire to. It is very unpleasant. It is very long. So... It can last, as I understand it, and people feel free to correct me, but 24 to 36 hours. That is a long time. And many people experience a full review of their lives and a controlled death experience whereby they get to see from the beginning of life, almost like a slideshow. The decisions they've made, how they've hurt themselves, the other people they've hurt, how their addiction has affected things. And what Gabor Maté would, how he might frame it is, instead of asking why the addiction, ask why the pain.

• 2:05:53Tim Ferriss?

  And the addiction is often a response, almost inevitably, but often a response, I'll say often, to some type of trauma or pain. And if you don't address that in some fashion, allow people to reintegrate that somehow, the likelihood of recidivism is very, very high. So just from a phenomenological perspective, which is Panther, I'm saying, subjective experiential standpoint, many people report that. Biochemically, and there are people who are looking at, for instance, using a metabolite of Ibogaine, nor Ibogaine, which may mitigate some of the risks, and this is, this is part of the reason why Ibogaine hasn't taken.

• 2:06:33Peter Attia?

  And the risks, I think we've stated explicitly.

• 2:06:35Tim Ferriss?

  Cardiac risk.

• 2:06:36Peter Attia?

  Yeah, cardiac arrhythmias.

• 2:06:37Tim Ferriss?

  People have and can die of cardiac events in using Ibogaine. I don't know the specifics, but I believe you can screen for this in a number of different ways to minimize the risk, and then certainly you can monitor in ways, having other types of more conventional pharmaceuticals on hand in the case there is some indicator of, of a pending cardiac event or cardiac event itself. That's one of the major risks. It is one of the more potentially dangerous psychedelics. It almost certainly is, compared at least to, say, LSD or psilocybin, for which.

• 2:07:15Tim Ferriss?

  I don't believe there is a known LD-50, meaning, well, you could explain this better than I can.

• 2:07:20Peter Attia?

  Yeah, the LD-50 being the dose at which 50% of a population would receive a lethal dose.

• 2:07:25Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly. Biochemically, what I was gonna say, putting all that stuff aside for a moment, what's so odd about this, and I'm not an opiate specialist, but I've had family members die from opiate overdoses. I don't even know if I told you about this relatively recently. And my best friend growing up on Long Island also died of a fentanyl overdose. So I have firsthand experience with the pain of losing loved ones to this epidemic. It appears that many people can come out of these Ibogaine treatments with close to no physical withdrawal symptoms. And I don't know how that works. I really don't.

• 2:08:08Tim Ferriss?

  But it does seem to be certainly one of the constituent pieces of this experience that lead to the success rate that many people are reporting.

• 2:08:18Peter Attia?

  Which is really interesting, because it's true that opiate addiction, opiate withdrawal is not physiologically harmful the way alcohol withdrawal is. So delirium stremin, so these DTs that people get when they withdraw from alcohol will be fatal. So you actually have to manage these people with benzodiazepines and other medications as you taper someone off. You don't have to do that with opiates, but the withdrawal is nevertheless psychologically devastating. So that's interesting that you could mitigate that. I've read accounts where people talk very similarly about Ibogaine, the way you described, or the way, I don't know if it was you or if it was Michael Pollan on the podcast, talking about the smoker, I think it was Michael Pollan talking about the smoker who says,

• 2:09:03Peter Attia?

  "You know, my lungs are just too beautiful to be insulted with this stuff." And like, "I realize that and I'm not..." And it's like, as silly as that might sound to someone listening to it, that experience, if profound enough, can have a life-changing event that is durable. And that's the key, is the durability. And similarly, I've heard these, I've read these accounts of people who, you know, have been completely addicted to narcotics. You know, the account I'm thinking of in particular was someone using heroin. And they came away from this thinking, "I could never..." Stick that needle in my arm again. Like, I could never do that to myself again because I now saw this connection I have to a plant and/or another person and/or another organism. And again, I know that I realize that when I say that, it sounds really silly.

• 2:09:48Tim Ferriss?

  It takes us or brings us full circle, in a sense, also back to the beginning when I said that you shouldn't and you don't have to go through life simply tolerating yourself at best. Because, there are a thousand things that could follow because. But in part, if you don't have any regard for yourself, if you think you're worthless, or if you think you're fatally flawed, if you think you're a fuck-up, if you think you can't get anything right, or you just don't, you don't have some intrinsic love for yourself, you don't see any beauty in yourself, why wouldn't you be addicted? Why wouldn't you stick that needle in your arm? Why wouldn't you smoke pot five times a day and tune out? Why wouldn't, not to say there aren't applications of cannabis, don't freak out people out there.

• 2:10:31Tim Ferriss?

  It's an interesting space, we don't have time to get into it right now. But there are so many ways you can numb or damage yourself, which is a, in some ways, a logical coping mechanism if you have a low regard for yourself. But when you sense an interconnectedness and you suddenly have empathy, not just for other people, like we've felt through our experiences, but an empathy for yourself, you look back at like the 10-year-old Peter or the 10-year-old Tim, and I'm just like, Jesus Christ, fucking poor kid. I mean, and I can sit with that feeling and actually identify with that kid and forgive that kid and assure that kid everything's gonna be alright. It's, right now, in words through

• 2:11:15Tim Ferriss?

  this microphone, probably not gonna have the impact that I would hope it to have, but for people to feel that as if you are in the same room with that younger version of yourself can be transformative beyond anything that I could convey right now. And when you have an experience like that, as ludicrous as it might sound, the idea of injecting some type of numbing agent into your body just becomes inconceivable. In the, in the same way that it would be inconceivable, as you mentioned earlier, how you treat yourself is ultimately how you would treat others. Like, well, would you inject your son with that? You're like...

• 2:11:54Tim Ferriss?

  To numb his experience of life? Of course not.

• 2:11:57Peter Attia?

  Yeah, that was just one of the most powerful experiences I ever had when I really finally accepted all of the issues I needed to accept and go into therapy was something they made me do, which was carry around a picture of me at a certain age before certain things had happened that were pivotal in sort of shaping both the positive and negative aspects of my personality. And the idea was, and again, it just works out that way. It worked out that way for me, that my oldest son is at about that age, and just for what it's worth, looks like me. So it became a very easy way to look at him and say, well, that was me. And it turns out that that was the, that was the bridge to understanding.

• 2:12:40Peter Attia?

  It's very, it's actually, if you're a parent, what parent can't find empathy for their child? And that's like this stepping stone. And so to think that these agents can do that, because maybe not everybody has that luxury of having a child or having a child that looks like them at the same age when they were traumatized or something like that. I mean, it's, it's very powerful and, you know, it just, I guess it's, there are many problems to which I really honestly have no, not even the foggiest clue how to go about solving them from a practical standpoint. Like, like, talk about climate change. Like, we could talk about climate change all day long, and we could certainly wax philosophically on lots of regulatory things that could be done to mitigate it.

• 2:13:23Peter Attia?

  But you start to realize very quickly that politically, these things become challenging, and you have all sorts of different economies around the world, and they'd all have to be in lockstep. And, and you sort of, not to be dismissive of these things, or say, we shouldn't work very hard at solving these, but the solution space isn't that clear to me. And yet, when you see a problem that in my mind is the single most important problem that's plaguing our civilization, and I know that's a big statement, that's a super big statement, and I realize it's also probably naive when you consider that. There are many other problems going on, but unhappiness is at the root of more pain, I would suspect, than any ailment that falls in the quote unquote "physical"

• 2:14:06Peter Attia?

  body. And to think that we have compounds that could play such an important role, that are really facing, you know, challenges in getting approved, I just find that really frustrating.

• 2:14:19Tim Ferriss?

  It's frustrating, and it has been frustrating for people like, for instance, Rick Doblin, who heads up MAPS, who've been...

• 2:14:26Peter Attia?

  He's been at it since 1986.

• 2:14:28Tim Ferriss?

  1986.

• 2:14:29Peter Attia?

  Which is just, to me, that's amazing.

• 2:14:31Tim Ferriss?

  And probably beforehand, if you take into account, I believe that's when MAPS was officially formed, if I'm not getting my facts wrong. And we're at a very exciting time now, where MDMA is being expedited. Psilocybin is certainly on its way. For people who are interested in learning more about this, I think maps.org is a fantastic place to look. In fact, one of the areas where MAPS could use support, as I understand it, is in taking

• 2:15:07Tim Ferriss?

  their approach to legitimizing MDMA use therapeutically in the US to Europe. So there will be steps they'll take with the EMA, I think it is, which is the FDA equivalent in the EU, for hopefully facilitating MDMA use in Europe. So that certainly, if you're looking to become involved with exploring and potentially supporting this, as I am, that is one clear and present need. And we're also at a very exciting point, because psilocybin is one example, which has a lot of good research to support it, and there's a lot more being done at places like Hopkins and NYU and many other places now, may have, and this remains

• 2:15:52Tim Ferriss?

  to be studied, but it's plausible that it could have profound applications to opiate addiction, for instance. And this comes back also to the...

• 2:16:04Tim Ferriss?

  ...story with birth control because the, I don't, I don't recall what the first compound was that was FDA approved, but it wasn't approved for birth control. I think it was approved for menstrual disorders.

• 2:16:16Peter Attia?

  That's right. That was the thin end of the wedge was women whose menstrual cycles were unusually heavy or uncomfortable were the first approval.

• 2:16:25Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly.

• 2:16:25Peter Attia?

  So, and that's the most important step is it's much easier to use something off-label once it's been approved than to get something approved.

• 2:16:33Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 2:16:34Peter Attia?

  So you pick the right indication. That's what's also impressed me about these organizations is just the strategic thought they've put into this, which is understanding a roadmap that is interested in the least resistance.

• 2:16:48Tim Ferriss?

  Right. Because to, what does it take to reschedule something? If you want to take it from the same class as a heroin and put it into a class where it can be prescribed with proper supervision, medical supervision, you need to, well, you, you, you, one of the approaches, like cocaine and the, the nasal anesthetic, demonstrate one clear medical application. And if that is depression in terminal cancer patients, that is a legitimate medical application and then that entire train can get in motion.

• 2:17:25Peter Attia?

  That's one nice thing about where the DEA and the FDA fall out is for the most part, there's a sense that, look, once we've, as these agencies, done our job in scheduling something, we're going to put faith in the practitioner to use his or her judgment as to how much latitude to grant around the application.

• 2:17:43Tim Ferriss?

  And, and I'll also mention one thing, just in case we have regulators or lawmakers, policymakers, people within the FDA or DEA who are listening, and that is, read Pauline's book. Check out Pauline's book and immerse yourself in this fascinating area of research. And, and I'll give, if, like a lot of people, you just don't have the bandwidth to dedicate a lot of time to this, a, something that Pauline has referred to on a number of different occasions, and that is the addictive potential. So what is the addictive potential of these compounds? If we're looking at, say, psilocybin specifically, we could use

• 2:18:23Tim Ferriss?

  other examples, but if you take a rat, put it in a cage and you give it one dispenser, a little Little lever that they can push to dispense food and another dispenser with cocaine that it can use to dispense cocaine, it will consume cocaine to the exclusion of food until it dies in many cases. If you do that with food and say psilocybin and it gets delivered a whopping dose of psilocybin, it will press that lever once. And then the rat's like, okay, that was enough and it goes to the food. And that rather than having high addictive potential, many of these compounds have anti, as we've already discussed, anti-addictive potential.

• 2:19:06Tim Ferriss?

  And my God, it's, it is terrifying when I look at where I grew up on say Long Island and you look at the obvious, putting aside the, all of the stuff that I don't see or hear about, but the obvious among people I grew up with, among my friends who have died of overdoses, family members who have died of overdoses, these are in some cases educated people, in some cases not, they're using prescription medications. These are widely distributed, easily prescribed medications that have demonstrated incredible abusive potential. And to think that we have these molecules that can be produced at relatively low cost

• 2:19:50Tim Ferriss?

  at scale that are not just non-addictive but anti-addictive, really provides some hope that we can counteract some of these incredible epidemics. I mean, I, you might've been the person who told me this, it could've been someone else, but was it last year that opiate deaths exceeded automotive accidents?

• 2:20:10Peter Attia?

  Yeah, for, it used to be that automotive accident was the leading cause of death for people up to a certain age, and I believe the age is 40, and now opiate overdose has offset that, so. You know, this isn't an isolated issue anymore. You know, for me, I think, I think the rate-limiting step is actually going to be training the clinicians to administer these things. I think that's going to become the bottleneck, and that's why I hope that, you know, you know, and we have friends who are psychiatrists, psychologists, who have become very interested in this, and that, to me, is really heartwarming because they're actually going to be among the people who need to lead the charge on this.

• 2:20:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and there are groups thinking about this. Certainly, both MAPS and other organizations that are involved in psilocybin are thinking about this. People who have come to the table to provide some funding, like myself, and, for instance, the Bronner family of Bronner Soap, and others, certainly their technologists who have come to the table, many of them have done so anonymously, are very well aware that having these compounds legalized for supervised use is step one, and that there will be a very, very real need for training clinicians. And the wheels are already in motion with prototyping some of this.

• 2:21:26Tim Ferriss?

  There's a, there's a group called CIIS out of California, which is prototyping some, some training protocols for therapists who are licensed in various ways already, so that when these compounds are available through prescription, that there are trained clinicians who could administer. So we'll see, we'll see. I'm very optimistic, but this is where I will be applying a lot of my focus, and these problems do not, they do not discriminate. These problems, these addictions, depression, anxiety, that people experience on a daily basis, don't care what color you are, don't care what gender you are, don't care how much or how little money you have.

• 2:22:09Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, given how publicly I've talked about, for instance, the content of the TED Talk that I, that I put out there on the depression, I've had people come out of the woodwork from my listenership, my readership. Some of the wealthiest people in the world who suffer from debilitating depression, whose kids are addicted to heroin. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, people who listen to the podcast, who are just scraping by, same set of issues, debilitating. And, you know, for the, in the last few years, I've, I've developed a real sense of optimism about myself and my life, quite frankly, number one, as a starting point, which I think is a starting point, like before you try to save the world, it's a good idea to try to

• 2:22:54Tim Ferriss?

  save yourself. And I have come away completely convinced that many of these stories I told myself, which were crippling, were unnecessary and that they can be wiped and you can write new stories, new narratives for yourself. And we talked about meditation. There's a book you introduced me to that I think we should, we should certainly mention also.

• 2:23:20Peter Attia?

  Is this Solve for Happy?

• 2:23:21Tim Ferriss?

  Solve for Happy. Can you talk about this?

• 2:23:23Peter Attia?

  Yeah. So Rick Gerson, who is a mutual friend, and you actually introduced me to Rick probably about five years ago, he gave me a copy of this book. And it was one of those things that just sort of sat there for, I don't know, six months. And it was just in the queue, but didn't, you know, I didn't really appreciate why I ought to read it as soon as it was given to me. You know, something in the midst of a crisis sort of brought it to my, to my attention a little more quickly. And I just devoured it. And so if, if the Terrence Real book, I don't want to talk about it, has now jumped into the number one spot of books I've gifted most, Solve for Happy is probably in the number two spot. And

• 2:24:08Tim Ferriss?

  Mo Gaudat?

• 2:24:09Peter Attia?

  Yep.

• 2:24:10Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, but M O, last name G A W D A T.

• 2:24:14Peter Attia?

  Yeah. And, and, and that's sort of pushed, uh, mistakes were made, but not by me into the, the now number three spot. Just ahead, probably of Shirley, you're joking, Mr. Feynman. It's weird. It's, it's interesting. It says something about us, the books we like to give people, doesn't it? You thanked Michael Pollan at the end of your interview, or maybe it was somewhere in the midst of it, but I thought it was at the end of the interview, for writing the book that he did because you said it was the book you wanted to read and that you wish you could have written. But you're no slouch yourself when it comes to writing books. Is there, is there anything that if you, if Michael hadn't have done that and you would have been writing that book, in addition to all the stuff we've talked about today, is there anything else that you would have included in that book that, that wasn't included? And that's hard, that's a hard, he's a tough act to follow.

• 2:24:55Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, very tough act to follow. And I'm so pleased that he wrote the book because I have been very clearly biased in the sense that I am a, I've seen the power of these compounds firsthand, and I'm not shy about, as, as we've seen in this conversation, putting myself clearly on the side of support. I don't think they should be available at every 7-Eleven. Some people think it should be every, every drug should just be available for anyone who wants to pick them up at any time. I disagree with that position completely. But I am nonetheless exceptionally bullish on the scientific research and ultimately

• 2:25:37Tim Ferriss?

  the rescheduling and widening of making these compounds available to people through qualified professionals and supervision. Michael has such a pedigree and is so widely respected as a, and I don't think he would mind me saying this, a skeptical, highly skeptical investigative journalist, that I'm, I couldn't be happier that, that he published his book before anything that I might write on the subject. If I were to write a book about, or including, I should say, a discussion of psychedelics, it would differ in, along the lines of Pollan's and my writing.

• 2:26:22Tim Ferriss?

  Styles, meaning Pauline is so brilliant at taking the history and science and characters in a given field and weaving it into a first-person narrative of his exploration of all of those things. Much like John McPhee, I don't want to digress, he's also just a hero of mine, but they're both so good at that. I would never try to out-Paulin-Paulin, I'll get my face ripped off. My book would just be a poor, poor, poor imitation of something that he would do masterfully.

• 2:26:54Peter Attia?

  You know, as I'm writing a book now, sort of interrupt, it makes it that much more apparent to me when I read good books, how much I suck. And I'm not saying that in a, that's not a negative self-talk, although it sounds like it. It's just the reality of it. It's like, look, I mean, these people are great for a reason. And it's exactly what you said. It's like, the best books are not lecturing you, they're bringing you on a journey. And when they can do that in really complicated topics and bring you along, and also interweave history non-linearly, that's, yeah.

• 2:27:26Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it's amazing. But I would say, just to give you a smooch on the forehead, that much like the best meditation approach or app or teacher in the world for me, may very likely drive you nuts, and is not the right person for you, that stylistically, some writers, some books will speak to you or grab your attention in an otherwise overflowing workload, and some won't. And that differs person to person. So rather than trying to out-Paulin-Paulin, or out-McPhee-McPhee, for God's sake, that would be a losing attempt. I've realized that I'm not, what I enjoy doing is providing firsthand accounts of my self-experimentation.

• 2:28:13Tim Ferriss?

  Followed by prescriptive recommendations that aren't intended to work for everybody, but that serve as more of a choose your own adventure buffet of options that I have vetted to at least work on myself and a number of close friends who span some different genders, different age groups and so on. And that's what I did with Four Hour Body. That's what I've done with all these different books. So if I were to write a book including psychedelics, it would likely include experiments with other modalities, other vehicles, other tools that also produce not minutely noticeable, but profound changes in consciousness, which

• 2:28:56Tim Ferriss?

  is really the stage upon which everything happens, right? And in doing so, provide you with an opportunity to rewrite the story of your life or to gain perspectives that are otherwise inaccessible. And that might include sensory deprivation tanks. It might include neurofeedback. It might include other types of non-psychedelic pharmaceuticals. It might include-

• 2:29:22Peter Attia?

  Ketamine, for example.

• 2:29:23Tim Ferriss?

  Ketamine, for instance.

• 2:29:24Peter Attia?

  We didn't get to that today. That would have taken a while, but-

• 2:29:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, ketamine is a whole separate kettle of fish. And I think my book would be more diffuse in that sense, thematically connected, but with independent modular chapters that include some likely extreme experiment that I conduct on myself. And then report back and say, guess what? I pushed the envelope and went way too far. So you don't have to. Let's dial that, let's dial that back 80%. And here's something you can try that I think has an acceptable risk benefit profile. That's probably the book that I would write.

• 2:30:02Peter Attia?

  Speaking of your books, I don't know if I told you this story. I think I did. But if not, it's worth retelling. Totally unrelated to this, but it just made me think of it. So like, I don't know, maybe a year ago or so, I'm in the airport and I just remember like my flight was delayed and I was sort of like, a friend who I don't talk to that often, like maybe once a year, he called me and he's like, dude, I just read about you in a book today.

• 2:30:24Tim Ferriss?

  I think I know where you're going.

• 2:30:27Peter Attia?

  And I was like, I was like, really? What do you mean? He's like, yeah, yeah, you're in this book. It's called Biggest Tools.

• 2:30:37Peter Attia?

  And I was like, what? He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's a chapter on you in this book. And I mean, oh, do you mean Tools of Titans? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. And just kept like, he just didn't even. And it was just, and he's Israeli and he has like an accent. So it's like, you could tell that like the expression biggest tools didn't mean to him what it meant to me. And I just thought that was the funniest thing. So to this day, I feel like proud to be one of the biggest tools.

• 2:31:04Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you know, that would be maybe the alternate title of the, the podcast that you and I have joked about, which is dumb things that smart people do. And that's a separate conversation, but there are so many ridiculous habits and obsessions that anyone who could be considered smart has. If you have not seen it already, just where, where should people find egg boxing?

• 2:31:27Peter Attia?

  I will link to it, but there's, it's, it's got its own Facebook page at this point. It's hilarious.

• 2:31:32Tim Ferriss?

  That'll be a teaser.

• 2:31:33Peter Attia?

  I do have one final question that's not on the topic at all of what we've discussed. But given that we have now, between the two of us in the past two and a half hours, drank, I want to say 20 Topo Chicos. My bladder right now is probably at its maximum capacity. I think pretty soon I'm going to develop hydronephrosis. So we're going to have to bring this thing to a close. One of the questions I get asked all the time is, you know, people say, oh, you're such good friends with Tim. Like, does he still do X? Does he still do Y? He wrote about this, he talked about this. I wonder, does he still do it? And so I was thinking for the person out there who's sort of wondering like, what, how has Tim evolved?

• 2:32:17Peter Attia?

  When you think of all the things you have written about, when you think about all the lessons you have codified for people, what are the three, four, maybe five things that you have written about in some of your books that still consistently shape how you have continued to optimize your trajectory?

• 2:32:36Tim Ferriss?

  So the three to five things that I would say I return to most reliably are perhaps unsexy to some people. But one would be some type of hinging exercise movement. I noticed that. Problems crop up when these are omitted for any extended period of time. By hinging movement or hip hinging movement, I mean some type of deadlift or kettlebell swing, two-handed kettlebell swing. Very, very simple to incorporate that into an exercise program. I do not believe unless you have some type of competitive agenda that you need to do these more than once a week. You could certainly do them twice a week for extra credit, but kettlebell swings or

• 2:33:19Tim Ferriss?

  deadlifts once a week prevent a whole host of issues and improve a whole host of performance factors. So that'd be one. Number two would be fasting and entering a state of ketosis for at least one week, at least once a quarter. In conversations with Peter, in conversations with Dom De Agostino, who's a mutual friend, very impressive, not just published researcher and scientist, but also athlete himself, the intermittent use of autophagy and entering this state of fasting and ketosis seems to me to deliver a host of potential benefits with very minimal downside.

• 2:34:04Tim Ferriss?

  I also like the, just the pure asceticism of the practice. So we have the hinging movement like a deadlift or kettlebell. We have fasting plus ketosis for an extended period, at least once a quarter. I just actually finished my latest segment about a month ago. Number three would be some type of meditative practice first thing in the morning. I'm also asked constantly, one of the questions that I ask sometimes, which is what advice would you give your 20-year-old self? What advice would you give your 30-year-old self? And it would be meditate 10 to 20 minutes first thing in the morning. Don't do it after you check your email and do A, B, and C because you're going to fail 50% of the time.

• 2:34:49Tim Ferriss?

  You just will not go back to it. Wake up right now, for instance, I have a foldable chair that goes on the floor. I believe it's called a back jack. Or a jack back, something along those lines, used quite often in meditation centers, right on the floor in front of my bed that faces out a window, looking at a bunch of beautiful trees. And I get out of bed, throw some water on my face, sit down and meditate. I would say that's number three, absolutely, is some type of non-reactivity training for 10 to 20 minutes, or put another way, non-reactivity rehearsal, which is another

• 2:35:30Tim Ferriss?

  reason why meditation sessions where you're, you feel entirely scattered and you only return to the breath a few times, feel like a waste of time, but they are absolutely not a waste of time, is that there are going to be periods throughout your day, on many days, when life is gonna just roundhouse kick you in the face over and over again, and you are going to be in that scattered state. So it is good to rehearse mindfulness in that scattered state, which is exactly what you're doing. Alright, so we have the hip hinging movement, at least once a week, exercise wise, ketosis slash fasting, meditation would be three. Number four would be the importance of group ritual. And this is something

• 2:36:11Tim Ferriss?

  that very often falls by the wayside that I forget, because I've so often retreated into myself whenever I've felt pain, or depression, or anxiety. I don't want to impose that on anyone else, and I feel like I should be able to figure it out on my own, and just climb back into the cave that is my brain. And this very often results in isolation, where I'm just by myself, even if I'm surrounded by other people, by myself, sitting in a coffee shop, by myself, in my own head. Group dinners, at least once or twice a week. Cooking, I have found, and this was not always the case, for people interested, you can check out The 4-Hour Chef, for all the reasons why I find this so incredibly therapeutic,

• 2:36:51Tim Ferriss?

  but don't have to cook, I just happen to find it adds a new, another level of decompression. But group meals, at least once or twice a week, would be number four. And then, if I had to pick a number five, I would say... I'm not going to use the psychedelics because we've been talking about this entire conversation. If you feel like you're having trouble making yourself happy, try to make someone else happy. And I think that that is the workaround that very often then improves your own state. So it's like if you're feeling just awful or depressed or in a funk, it's like, go get a coffee and pay for the person behind you.

• 2:37:33Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, just exercise some of those random acts of kindness. Think about someone who has helped you and call them and leave them a voicemail or get them on the phone and thank them for how they've helped you. And closely related to that, that ties back into the meditative practice, is if the me, me, me practice, focusing on your breath, focusing on your thoughts, focusing on your, your, your, your, me, me, me, me, is maybe exacerbating some of your problems and you feel like you're having trouble escaping your own head, take a look at metta meditation, M E T T A, also known as loving kindness meditation. And I have found that to just be powerful beyond belief. I didn't think it would do anything. I found it kind of cheesy.

• 2:38:18Tim Ferriss?

  I thought it was kind of cliched. I wrote about this a bit, borrowing from the teaching of someone named Ched Meng Tan, who was an early engineer at Google and created a class called Search Inside Yourself, which was hugely oversubscribed by employees at Google. I think it had some insane waiting list. And this was one of the techniques he recommended. So loving kindness, typhenated loving kindness meditation, which Jack Kornfield has some fantastic examples of. So Jack Kornfield, K O R N field, and loving kindness meditation, also known as metta, M E T T A meditation. And there have been multiple reports. I've certainly experienced this myself, but by doing metta meditation, say, at night

• 2:39:03Tim Ferriss?

  before going to bed, do that for a few days, and you might have the most at peace week you have experienced in years. It's, it's really something else. It's worth experimenting with. So I would say those are my five, at least the five that come to mind right now that I would feel very comfortable defending and backing.

• 2:39:21Peter Attia?

  Well, Tim, that's super helpful because I, we managed to somehow figure out a way to spend so much time together that I... When you say those things, I'm like, yeah, of course, like, that's just what you're always doing. But I think it's great for people who are listening to this who don't get to interact with you frequently, to get that little update on stuff. So you've been incredibly generous with your time, but what people probably don't realize is how generous you've been with your time off this podcast, including sending me the links to which pieces of equipment to buy for the recordings and sitting down with me and giving me not just the 101, but the full course on, look, do this, don't do that, waste time and energy on this, don't waste time and energy on that. So I really want to thank you. I can't imagine having

• 2:40:05Peter Attia?

  anybody else be the number one episode of this podcast. And I do hope that this podcast continues beyond the initial 12 or 13. But even if it doesn't, this will have been incredibly worthwhile. And thank you again for your hospitality this weekend in particular. I remember I put out something on Instagram the other day about what was the over under on how many Topo Chicos I could drink in a weekend. And I think I said it at 15 or 16. We have blown through that so much. I can't imagine. I still don't. Anyone who's listening to this who doesn't know what we're talking about, we're talking about is sort of bottled water. It's in a glass bottle and it's a carbonated water. But anybody who's tried it will agree, it's not like a Perrier. There's something different.

• 2:40:45Tim Ferriss?

  Little touch of magic sodium to keep you coming back for more, among other things.

• 2:40:49Peter Attia?

  Anyway, Tim, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be on a little rinky dink podcast at this point. But anyway, it's been wonderful.

• 2:40:59Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, my pleasure, man. I expect to see you right up there with our mutual friend Jocko, who you introduced me to. So thank you for helping to unleash Jocko on the internet. And ever since our episodes on my podcast where I had you on as a guest, I've been beating the drum wanting you to start your own because I think that you're just going to do a fantastic job and that it's going to become one of the regular listens in my own rotation of podcasts that I listen to. So keep it up, man.

• 2:41:34Peter Attia?

  Thanks, brother.

• 2:41:36Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered, it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 2:42:18Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Walter Isaacson's number one New York Times bestseller, Leonardo da Vinci, which chronicles the life and times of the Renaissance genius while showing us how we can harness da Vinci's boundless curiosity and creativity. Not long ago, I interviewed Walter on this podcast about his writing and Leonardo, as I've known Walter for some time, and the book is spectacular. I think it's his best biography yet, and that is really saying a lot considering how

• 2:43:03Tim Ferriss?

  famous and popular his bios are of Benjamin Franklin, Einstein, and Steve Jobs. Leonardo da Vinci, the book that is, has been hailed by The New Yorker as, quote, "a study in creativity, how to define it, how to achieve it," end quote. And it is based on thousands of pages from Leonardo's astonishing notebooks and new discoveries about his life and work. So Walter really reveals an intimate Leonardo. He gets no sides of him we haven't seen before, and a narrative that connects his art to his science. He shows how Leonardo's genius was based on skills that we can improve in ourselves, such as passionate curiosity, but how to hone that, careful observation, how to develop it, and an imagination so playful that it even, I would say, flirted with fantasy, but

• 2:43:47Tim Ferriss?

  at the end of the day was imminently practical. Leonardo da Vinci by Walter Isaacson, published by Simon & Schuster, is available now wherever books are sold. And I suggest you check out an excerpt at da vinci bio.com. That's da vinci bio.com.

• 2:44:04Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Peloton, which I've been using probably for about a year now. Peloton is a cutting-edge indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right into your home. You can also do on-demand, which is what I do, we'll come back to that. So you don't have to worry about fitting classes into a busy schedule or making it to a studio or gym with a hectic or unpredictable commute. I, for instance, have a Peloton bike right in my master bedroom at home, and it's one of the first things I do many mornings. I wake up, I meditate for a bit, then I knock out a short 20-minute ride in my undies, hard to do that at the gym, take a shower, and I'm in higher gear for the rest of the day. It's really convenient and has become something that I look forward to. So you have a lot of options. For one, if you like, you can ride live with thousands of other riders across the country

• 2:44:49Tim Ferriss?

  on an interactive leaderboard to keep you motivated. There are also up to 14 new classes added every day with more than 8,000 classes on-demand, and you can pick based on length, 45 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever, music, hip-hop, rock and roll, or say, low-impact versus high-intensity or interval. You can pick the class structure and style that works for you. And in my case, I quite like Matt Wilpers, and I tend to do on-demand and listen to a lot of and watch many of the same classes over and over, but I'm kind of promiscuous and also enjoy classes from a lot of the other instructors. They have Peloton, an amazing roster of incredible instructors in New York City with a whole range of styles and personalities, so you can find what you're in the mood for.

• 2:45:30Tim Ferriss?

  You also get real-time metrics that you can use to track your performance over time, and that will help, I would say, catalyze you to beat your personal best. Now, that all sounds good, right? Gamification, yada, yada, yada. I didn't think that it would work for me or in any way incentivize me, but they really 100% hit the nail on the head. I was very, very impressed with how motivating it was, and it worked tremendously to keep me pushing, which quite honestly takes a fair amount. I can get quite lazy, particularly with anything that edges on endurance, which is kind of more than five reps of anything for me. So... Check it out. Discover this cutting-edge indoor cycling bike that brings the studio experience right to your home. Peloton is offering listeners of this podcast a limited time offer.

• 2:46:15Tim Ferriss?

  Go to onepeloton.com, that's O-N-E Peloton, P-E-L-O-T-O-N dot com, and enter the code TIM, all caps, at checkout and get $100 off of accessories with your Peloton bike purchase. So, get a great workout at home anytime you want. Check it out. Go to onepeloton.com and use the code TIM to get started.