How to Negotiate the RIGHT Way with Chris Voss

Master the Art of Negotiation with FBI Hostage Negotiator, Chris Voss! This week, I’m incredibly excited to bring you an episode that’s all about mastering one of the most crucial skills you can have – negotiation. And who better to learn from than the legendary Chris Voss, a former FBI hostage negotiator and the brilliant mind behind "Never Split the Difference." Chris takes us on an eye-opening journey from his high-stakes negotiations with terrorists and criminals to applying those same powerful techniques in business and everyday life. This episode is packed with insights that will change the way you approach every interaction. We get REAL about the art of negotiation teaching you expert tactics including: Tactical Empathy: Discover how to connect deeply with anyone you’re negotiating with by truly understanding their perspective. Mirroring and Labeling: Learn these simple yet powerful techniques to build rapport and influence outcomes. The Power of ‘No’: Understand why getting a ‘No’ can be just as valuable as a ‘Yes’ and how to use it to your advantage. Creating the Illusion of Control: Find out how to guide conversations so the other party feels in control while you steer towards your goals. Calibrated Questions: Master the art of asking the right questions to uncover hidden truths and navigate complex situations. Chris shares some of his most intense negotiation stories, like dealing with a bank robber and talking down a hostage-taker. These real-life examples illustrate the principles he’s developed and how you can apply them to achieve success in your own negotiations. This episode isn’t just for business leaders or salespeople – it’s for anyone who wants to improve their ability to communicate, persuade, and achieve their goals. Whether you’re negotiating a deal, asking for a raise, or resolving a conflict at home, these strategies will give you the edge. Join us for this transformative conversation and equip yourself with the tools to become a master negotiator. Don’t miss out on these invaluable lessons from one of the best in the field! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ed Mylett?

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• 0:45Ed Mylett?

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• 1:30Ed Mylett?

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• 2:04Speaker 01

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• 2:38Ed Mylett?

  This is the end mile show.

• 2:42Ed Mylett?

  Welcome back to the show, everybody. So I wanted to have this man on for a couple of years. I'm really a big fan of his work. Not just from the negotiation standpoint, but from a communication standpoint. And he spent 24 years in the FBI crisis negotiation unit. He's done over 150 different international hostage type negotiations. I think he's probably the foremost expert on the planet in communication, not just negotiation. His work is unique. He obviously brings an experience and a perspective that really nobody else on the planet has, based on what I just told you. And I'm just a big fan of his work. So by the way, I got a book too. It's been out for a while, but I read it when it came out called Never Split the Difference. I highly recommend you guys all get that. We're going to break that stuff down today with Chris Voss. So Chris, welcome to the show finally.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Thanks, Ed. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.

• 3:29Ed Mylett?

  Well, I don't even know where to begin with you because there's so much to it. But I, when I introduced you, I said it the way I meant it. I think most everything in life is probably negotiation, but I know most everything in life involves communication.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Right, there you go.

• 3:42Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, and you've communicated with all types of different people. But the first thing I wanted to ask you is I saw a clip of you recently, which surprised me because I've been in, I just kind of got, I thought I was a great reader of people. You know, I thought I was, and as I've gotten older, I think I've realized maybe not quite as good as I thought. And this guy that kind of hammered me, actually kind of almost, I'd call it a, almost scammed me in something. He kept saying, man, I want to make this a win-win. When he kept opening up, I want to make it a win-win. And, and, and I heard you say, that's like a red flag for you anytime somebody says win-win. So I know it's an odd place to start, but why? I just got to know why personally.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, because the person who's going to manipulate us has learned that people really drop their guard when they hear that. I mean, it's one of those things, win-win, and also you got to watch out for the F word, fear.

• 4:32Ed Mylett?

  Fear.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  And you can get people to drop their guard. And somebody who's really desirous of collaboration, I mean, the people that that'll take advantage of you. They learn that like if I say win-win enough, I mean, they're gonna like, oh, wow, okay, they'll be hypnotized. And so the, you know, mutual win, mutual benefit is definitely the goal.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  And so is the difference between are you willing to collaborate or are you just using that, you know, are you weaponizing? Uh, the, the phrase, and there's a few things out there that, uh, disguises collaboration. But the people have a tendency to weaponize against you and win-win is one of those phrases and without fail. But the sooner somebody uses it as a specific phrase and the more often they use it, they're bad news.

• 5:23Ed Mylett?

  But yet you recommend, Chris, in your work to use the word fair as much as you possibly can, don't you?

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Well, no, be cautious of it.

• 5:31Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  And because, um, cause fair it is really lacking in criteria.

• 5:35Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Fair is like beauty is in the eye to behold. And so if, uh, somebody's accusing me of being unfair, uh, I'll say, all right, so let's rewind. I want, I want, I want you to be treated fairly at all times. And so anytime that you get the sense that I'm not, let's go back to it. Now that's a different characterization of somebody saying like, look, I just want what, I just want what's fair. Now that's a highly manipulative thing to say. You're probably gonna drop your guard, you're gonna question yourself. Cause the vast majority of human beings think of themselves as fair. So anytime it's implied that we're being unfair, we'll, we'll have a tendency to give in. So is, there's a lot, there's, there's more nuance to that.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Uh, anytime you hear the, the F word, it should prick up your ears. And understand what it really means. And mostly, there's no criteria to fair.

• 6:31Ed Mylett?

  Okay, that's fascinating to me because those are two of the things this particular individual used with me. Uh, it was win, win and fair, fair, fair. And you know, you're very much right. And by the way, today, guys, when we're talking, we're going to talk, we're not going to talk a lot about FBI releases. We're going to talk about communication, being able to build rapport with people, persuasion, connection. Um, and I think a good place to start, I know you've done this a lot, but for my audience, I think it's so, I like concepts and then you fill it in with specificity. And in the book, um, Never Split the Difference, you talk about there really being like three types of personalities in negotiation. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I read the book,

• 7:13Ed Mylett?

  you know, quite a while ago, and then I reviewed it for here, but there's the accommodator, the assertive and the analyst.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Right, yep.

• 7:19Ed Mylett?

  Okay, what are those? And is that true of just humans in general? Like, is my son one of those three? Is my wife one of those three? Are you one of those three? Does everybody sort of come prepackaged? When you're communicating, and forget negotiating, even though that's sort of what it is, is everyone one of those?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yes. Now, is, does that define and constrain you? No, depends upon how much you learn. But your default innate conflict type is fight, flight, make, fight, flight, make friends. Uh, and of the wiring that we've inherited from the Cabe, Cabe men that survived, fought, ran or made friends. And those that didn't either died and have no ancestors. Now, this is cut across the globe, you know, it really does. And it's based on something called the Thomas Kilman Conflict Mode Instrument, TKI. I first got introduced to that at Harvard and TKI divided people into five types.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  And my Harvard brethren threw out two of the three.

• 8:23Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Uh, two of the five. And Bob Menucha principally led this. I'm a big fan of Bob's book, Beyond Winning, by the way.

• 8:31Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  And so one day I said, okay. I I buy in. Uh, but I want to know why you threw out the two types and are left with those three.

• 8:41Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  And he said, because the the other two were learned, they're combinations of the three, and these are the three basic types.

• 8:48Ed Mylett?

  Hmm.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Now, T K I um uses slightly different terms.

• 8:53Ed Mylett?

  Hmm.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  And we changed the terms, the questions, a little bit to come up with our own model, like, for example. The accommodated or the assertive was known as the competitive type. And I thought that meant, all right, so the other types aren't competitive. And I found all three types to be very competitive. So that, you know, that was that was a bit of a red hair. So a fight, flight, make friends. And then there's words, world split evenly into thirds. Is it rule of thumb? Chinese, Indian, we have given this test. To literally ten thousand people globally. I saw it split up evenly into thirds when they were te- doing it at Harvard.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  A global audience. Harvard students are drawn from all over the world.

• 9:44Ed Mylett?

  Hmm.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  In the business schools that we taught in. A global audience, American business schools. Draw from all over the world. That is, you know, the U S is the place to get an M B A. Whether you're in China, whether you're in Italy. And then one time we were, we were doing some training a number of years ago. All Chinese, Chinese Development Bank executives were training them in Germany. Uh, it sounds like the U N of training, right?

• 10:11Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  But yeah, we were told in advance, you know, Chinese this, Chinese that. And we saw all three types manifested in the Chinese.

• 10:21Ed Mylett?

  Hmm.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  So what what does that mean? Um, typically, it means. Your impasse is usually type mismatch and a misinterpretation. Of a dynamic. Most common one is silence. I go dead silent on you. I'm an analyst. I'm thinking and Lex Friedman, very analytical dude, he's talking about silence on his podcast one time and he says to him intimate silence is a shared intimacy. You go silent with Lex, the analyst, he feels more bonded to you. You're both comfortable in the silence. He shares a common air, relationship, hope focused, all communication.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  The meanest thing they could do is to go silent and a commentator signals fury by withdrawing from communication. So imagine a commentator and an analyst, you know, the analyst is going like, would you just shut up? I'm trying to think. And the commentator is going, oh, the analyst Lex is furious at me. That's why he's not talking. And so it's that that dynamic that's usually a problem with impasse.

• 11:35Ed Mylett?

  How do you, and I know it's more complicated than one question, but let's just take one type, the assertive.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:42Ed Mylett?

  How do you deduce that you're dealing with an assertive, you know, in a relatively quick period of time? I know there's the questions, but if there is there a way that I'm okay, I'm dealing with an assertive right now?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  The only person that's going to sound like an assertive is an assertive, you know, talking to, I'm a natural born assertive, Donald Trump's great poster child, not taking a position good or bad. He's, he's a great example of the assertive. Somebody once told me when I was being my natural default assertive self, that talking to me was like getting hit in the face with a brick. I mean, we are blunt, we are direct, we sees ourselves simply as direct and honest. You feel like you're getting hit in the face with a brick. Now, the accommodator, neither the accommodator nor the analyst will ever come off that way. Where you might get confused, the analyst.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Analytical by nature. They see the accommodators as smiling, happy, go lucky type. Making more deals. Now, the deals always with accommodators always have implementation problems because they're not, they're hope focused, not detail focused. Hope is not a strategy. Hope is the principal strategy to accommodate. So the analyst goes. How does this guy, just by smiling, make more deals than I make? And they go like, oh, this person smiles a lot and it seems to help. And so, you know, the analyst will often be mistaken for an accommodator because they're smart enough to change their demeanor. So that's sometimes you could get confused between those two types.

• 13:16Ed Mylett?

  So the assertive, so everybody, it's accommodator, assertive and analyst. The assertive is the easiest to see coming is basically what you're saying.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're gonna, yeah, they're, they're an elephant coming through the jungle. You know, they're on their way.

• 13:28Ed Mylett?

  Well, what's interesting, I guarantee you, for me, it just happened too. When you begin to describe the assertive, I immediately flashed to two or three friends of mine immediately. I'm like, yep, assertive, assertive. And I guarantee you, everybody did in that moment as well. So, hey, guys, I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth. And, you know, by the way, it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow. And also taking a look at the future. If you want to change your future, you've got to change the things you're doing. If you continue to do the same things, you're probably going to produce the same results. But if you get into a new environment where you're learning new things and you're around other people that are growth oriented, you're much more likely to do that yourself. And that's why I love Growth Day. Write this down for a second. Growth day.com/ed. My friend Brendon Burchard has created the most incredible personal development and

• 14:12Ed Mylett?

  business app that I've ever seen in my life. Everything from goal setting software to personal accountability, journaling, courses, thousands of dollars worth of courses in there as well. I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute, as do a whole bunch of other influencers, like the Avengers of influencers and business minds in there. It's the Netflix for high achievers or people that want to be high achievers. So go check it out. My friend Brennan's made it very affordable, very easy to get involved. Go to growthday.com/ed. That's growthday.com/ed.

• 14:42Ed Mylett?

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• 15:25Ed Mylett?

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• 16:09Ed Mylett?

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• 16:46Ed Mylett?

  The thing I've learned most from your work, though, and this is where I want to pull apart. So everybody, forget negotiation. This is just life skills right here. And I think I have been by and large terrible at this most of my life, what I'm about to ask you about. And I think I'm an assertive number one, probably. And although I don't have a lot of abilities, I really don't. One of them is the ability to speak and to communicate.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:09Ed Mylett?

  And I think oftentimes I rely on that as opposed to what I've really worked on the last decade is my listening skills. And I have found, like, I'll do a retreat with a bunch of people that'll come in, for example, for business, right? And I'll talk for three days, give them the best information, engage them, train them up, motivate them, inspire them. And they leave and I think they think it's good. This is back in the day. And then another buddy of mine would come in, he's not even really that prepared. They sit around and BS for three days and they ask them a bunch of questions. They all talk. And they leave and it gets back to me, that was the greatest retreat they've ever been to in their lives. And it felt to me like it's probably because they were listened to more. So it's just a concept. As a negotiator, as a communicator, as a man, as a human,

• 17:54Ed Mylett?

  how important is active listening and listening in general to persuasion and connection with people? Because I think it's a lost art.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  It's an advanced skill. And in many cases, like, isn't assertive, and you sound very much like an assertive, your description for a variety of reasons. Assertives are time is money people. And so if you're given instructions, like, I'm gonna jam, you know, time is money, every moment, no moment can be wasted. I'm gonna download as much value as I possibly can. And I'm not gonna waste a moment not giving these people value for each and every minute they're here. And so that becomes a bit of a deluge to start with. And it's hard to keep up with. It's, it's, everybody on my team, we got that problem in our instruction. We're so, want to give you nothing but valuable content.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  And so then, listening, like the tiniest little things. How much time do you have for somebody who's not listening to you? Like zero.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  And you're gonna notice it right away. And so in these tiny moments, being listened to actually increases analysis on both sides. It gives people an opportunity to do a little bit more processing. And so there's a, there's a whole variety of subtle nuances, invisible nuances. That affective proactive, not just active proactive listening starts to kick into gear. And so I'll get, it seems less efficient. And then suddenly you're in a, you've accelerated 15 steps. You don't even know how it happened.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  And that's the, you know, and to me, and it's one of the, I, I possess that's the magic. I know the magic's coming. But just these subtle little tweaks. So.

• 19:46Ed Mylett?

  What are a couple of tweaks you use? What do you, there's some active listening skills you'll use to let someone know you are, right? So it's one thing to be listening. It's another thing for them to get the message and feeling that you're listening as well. Right?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Well, the, the, the secret easiest one, simplest is the mirror. Repeating the last one to three words of what somebody has just said.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  And this is the best one to open up your teenager. Like there have been so many moms who suddenly opened up their daughters. Because, you know, a kid comes home from school. How was your day? Fine. What'd you do? I don't remember.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  You didn't indicate to them that you even listened to the answer to the first question. So you say, how was your day? They go, fine. The parent's response should be, fine?

• 20:38Speaker 02

  Which is, I, even though you only gave me one word, I just proved that I listened to. Now that tiny moment tends to open people up very quickly. Because normally you got a list of questions. And you're checking them off the list. Mom, dad, I'm gonna say, how was your day? What did you do? Boom, boom. I, you know, you feel like your intention to do a job as a parent to display interest is there. Yes, it is. But your method was poor. Because by following up immediately with your next question. You made them think you weren't listening to the first answer.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  And so the the mirror is like the first way to get your foot in the door to open a communication up.

• 21:27Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, this is why you should be following Chris's work, why you should bring him in to speak, why you should get never split the difference. That alone is simple and I don't do it. I don't do it. Here's what I do do. That's I just learned from you recently. Um, I was in, I am in the middle of a rather intense negotiation on something right now. And I allowed it to escalate to where it got heated. And the advantage to that though is I got to use one of your techniques and I I want everyone to have you elaborate on this because I think the foundation of what I've learned is just allowing someone to feel heard or be heard is so critical. We'll talk about that in the negotiations hostage wise next, but I want to ask you this.

• 22:08Ed Mylett?

  So anyway, it got elevated. This was just like a week ago, even though I learned this from you a little while ago. And the guy said something to me about what he wouldn't do and then sort of a statement about me. That wasn't flattering.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:24Ed Mylett?

  And the normal me would have been just to annihilate him, right verbally, which would have made me feel good in the moment and gotten us further away. And I not kidding you, I was sitting about thirty feet from where I am right now. And I knew I was having you on the show in a few weeks. And so I was even more familiar through work and I actually said to him, I said, I I won't say his name. I said to him, I said, listen, you must have a great reason for feeling that way and saying that. What is it? And he just opened up. And it allowed him to talk and basically what it did is it bought me time to think about other things, but it also I got so much more information in the next seven minutes from him than I'd gotten in three two hour full sessions previously.

• 23:08Ed Mylett?

  And we connected pretty deeply during that moment. So can you talk about the question to ask when someone says that to you? I probably phrased it wrong and why it matters so much?

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is like the universal magic label. Like no matter, somebody's arguing with you, somebody's agreeing with you. Like there's never going to be an instance when you can't say, you know, you said you must have a great reason for saying that, you know, a version of that is it it seems like you have a reason for saying that. Seems like you have a reason for doing it. Like somebody just calls you the worst name they could possibly call you. Seems like you got a great reason for saying, and they open up. Somebody completely agrees with what you just said. Seems like you got a reason, a great reason for saying it. And he opened up like that is like if I, if I could, if I could teach people just that one label. And say, here's what I want you to do for the rest of today. Nothing, nothing else comes out of your mouth.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Just today, just today. It seems like you got reason, a great reason for saying that. You start that tomorrow morning for saying, at the end of the day, you gotta say it 15 times. Post on my Instagram, what happened?

• 24:20Speaker 02

  At the FBI negotiate. Tell me what kind of day you had. I guarantee you. You're gonna have a cooler day than you ever could have imagined. And what, first of all, well done. And that's a great example, like, and it, and it bought you time. You know, and it stopped you from, uh, you know, counter launching your nuclear missiles. I mutually assured destruction, right?

• 24:43Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Americans.

• 24:45Ed Mylett?

  Can I tell you the other thing it did? It not only connected us, I'm working on some content I'm creating right now. That I just stumbled into in my life, the last five years, where I talk about changing the lens in your life. When you're engaging with people of switching it, because you, we all see them in our relationship with them through our lens. Our filter, our lens. And so I'm creating work right now that talks about. Creating an ability just to be a better human about switch the lens and have your mom, see you through how your mom sees you. You know, how does she react to you the last, and change the lens is the bottom line. And what it actually did in that moment for me. So, so angry is it changed the lens and I actually saw me from him. And when I started to see what he sees in me.

• 25:29Ed Mylett?

  It helped me better understand his position, but also how to respond and react and connect with him, to be honest with you.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:36Ed Mylett?

  Someone, Dr. Phil told me this and I, I, I, I, I wouldn't, I want to know the validity of it or how valid it is. He told me that in hostage negotiation. That the number one criteria, so correct if it's wrong, and then tell us how important it is. Okay. But I think it's a bold statement. That in hostage negotiation, maybe he heard this from you. I don't know. That in hostage negotiation, the number one criteria of getting the hostages back, if everything were ranked is not that the needs or the demands were met of the person or anything like that, but that the actual. Hostage taker. Felt listened to. And for why they did it. True or false? And if it's not true, how important is that anyway?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  True and true and, um. I love that he caught that. He and I have had, you know, conversation in the past. Uh, he'd been generous to me and, and he's mentioned my name a couple of times, which I'm grateful for. And that's it a thousand percent. And while it sounds crazy, if you consider human, human beings, how do we make decisions? We escalate. And the first thing that we, if we're not heard, then the first time we talk normally, you know, we try to get listened to. All right. So we were, it proved to us that that didn't work. So now we're gonna, we're gonna escalate our tone of voice. We're gonna escalate our rhetoric. We're gonna escalate our adjectives. That doesn't work. Then we either give up or then that's when we start to get violent.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  But it all started from a need to be heard to begin with. And like that translates. I mean, that, that's why, like we, my team, we make more deals. Cause our focus is on hearing the other side out to start with. And you know, it, it's a universal need of human banks.

• 27:20Ed Mylett?

  That's just striking. I'm gonna just step back from a second, everybody and hear that. The number one thing in getting a hostage back in a negotiation is that that person feels you've heard why they took the hostages. Do you think by and large, I was just thinking about this, people in my life, just right now occurred to me. I, I don't believe there's these huge differences and all this other stuff, but do you think by and large, women are better at this than men? Just intuitively? Have you had any work with that? Like, I'm just thinking like in my life, my female friends certainly listen better to me. There's this great bit right now that, uh, Brian Regan has this comedy bit where his buddy's going through a divorce. And he goes and plays five hours of golf with his buddy and he gets home, Regan gets home and his wife says to him, so how's Dave doing? And Regan goes, I don't know.

• 28:06Ed Mylett?

  She goes, didn't you just spend five hours with him in the golf cart? He goes, yeah. And, and she says, well, is he dating anybody? He goes, I don't know. You didn't ask him, he's dating buddy? He goes, no, he goes, I know he's got a new driver, but you know. But yet I, I would think if, if two ladies were together for five hours on the golf course, they might listen to each other a little bit better. Maybe that's not gender specific at all, but what are your thoughts? I'm just curious your thoughts on that.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, all right. So let me, let me, uh, three parts to the answer.

• 28:36Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Nature versus nurture. I haven't seen hard science that says that nature gives them a head start. Now nurture does. Women are conditioned very early on, like a little girl gets into trouble and you know, the females in her life, the female mentors are going to be like, look, you gotta, you gotta learn your soft skills. You know, a little girl gets into a fight with a little boy, whoops his ass. Because pre-adolescence, they're kind of even physically. But the women mentors know eventually the little boy's going to pass you by and you're going to have to have soft power to win. So tremendous amount of nurturing to begin with. Little boy gets into a fight, goes home and the male mentors are like, you know, go back

• 29:22Speaker 02

  there and don't ever come home here again crying and complaining. You go back there and you stand up and you fight. So it's a different kind of nurture. Now the black swan skills, women pick them up faster than men do. And at the top end, we see no difference in gender performance. But I do know consistently that women pick this methodology faster than men. So my hypothesis is the, you know, the pre-work, they got more pre-work in the nurturing to begin with. And then, like I said, at the top end, if you're coachable, man or woman, it doesn't make any difference.

• 30:03Ed Mylett?

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• 30:48Ed Mylett?

  Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/ed for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash ed. So you know, I've been trying to take my health and my morning routine to the next level. And I used to do a whole bunch of different stuff, tons of different supplements. And then I found all in one in a drink with IM8. IM8 is the way to simplify your supplement routine, finally, once and for all. 16 supplements replaced 90 ingredients across nine major organ systems in one drink. You can have all these supplements for $2.61 a day. I've changed my mornings. The whole IM8 routine has changed my mornings.

• 31:31Ed Mylett?

  I feel great and I bring energy to the entire day. Go to IM8health.com/Ed10 right now, or click the link in the description and use code ED10 for a free welcome kit, five free travel sachets plus 10% off your order. That's code ED10 at IM8health.com/Ed10. Code ED10 at IM8health.com/Ed10. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Funny, you said hypothesis because I wanted to ask you about that. One of the things I've seen you say that just fascinating to me is a way to accelerate a negotiation or a conversation with somebody. I was surprised by this.

• 32:18Ed Mylett?

  And it could be a friendly negotiation, like, hey, where are we going to dinner tonight? Or it could be a hostage negotiation, but is to actually state a hypothesis

• 32:28Ed Mylett?

  early in the conversation about what you believe they're feeling or thinking in order to get them to open up. That surprised me because I thought you would just want somebody to talk. So talk about the hypothesis theory of accelerating a negotiation or a connection.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  You know, the emphasis on that word originally came from my son, Brandon. And he said, like, look, we got to get people to test their thinking. And if you're making an assumption, you might be, you know, you're kind of scared to test it. I mean, it's the reason why there's phrases criticizing assumptions is because our lack of testing our assumptions. So he said, let, if we, we can help people if you say hypothesis to begin with, that requires some testing. And it, it accepts that you could be wrong and your, your ego is not gonna get blown apart if you are wrong. That's, that's part of the scientific method, if you will. So then you throw out a hypothesis and intention has a smell. Your intent is to collaborate with somebody.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  And I'm not saying for sure that this is where you're coming from, but kind of seems that way. And then if I'm dead wrong and I once, somebody once jumped down my throat. Uh, I said, you sound angry. They were, they were angry. But the guy jumped down my throat. I'm not angry.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  And I said, well, I didn't say you were angry. I said, you sound angry.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  And how he seemed, how he sounded, how he was coming off was inarguable. I was just making an observation. And that actually dialed them down completely to begin with. So if your thinking starts with, um, I got a hypothesis I want to test. You're, the other side gets a feel that you're willing to be corrected and you're not trying to be judgmental.

• 34:15Ed Mylett?

  So you're saying it's okay to say, hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think you're saying is this, or what I think you're feeling is this. That's opening doors, not closing them.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, they're completely, the intent by that's thousand percent right. Now, you know, there's, there's a couple of sort of nuances in the wording that I would change.

• 34:34Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Um, you know, the I, I is a self centering word. So it's, it's a little more effective to say, you know, you see, you seem upset versus

• 34:46Speaker 02

  I'm guessing you're upset. You know, I, they're, they're tiny little, each, each word hits people emotionally different and there's some context to.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  And I tends to be self centering. And as a general rule, you want to avoid it when you're trying to make it all about the other person.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  And then, but then there are times when you drop the word I in, there's, there's, it's, there's no word that in and of itself is good or bad. Yes, isn't good or bad. No, isn't good or bad. It's all context and I is one of those words. Just understand it tends to be self centering. There are moments when you want to self center. But when you're demonstrating, listening, you're trying to put all the emphasis on the other person. The more you can eliminate the word I, the better off you're gonna be.

• 35:34Ed Mylett?

  Very good. I noticed when in your hypothetical there, when the guy came back at you angry. It sounded to me that even now you modulated your language differently because you're such a pro. But it sounded to me that you went to a more maybe potentially slower or soothing tone in your voice. Just even right now, when you role played by yourself, was that just coincidental or did I pick up on something there?

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Nah, no, you're picking up on it. I mean, the, the, the secret magic skill. Like if your tone is great, it's shocking where you can get away with saying. And it's, you know, slowing down, it's pacing at different points in time. You know, it's whether you're upward inflecting or downward inflect. And there's so much you could do, like it just, it is the magic secret Jedi mind frame. Cause there are neurological reactions to the tone. And I know what the neurobiology is, so I practice it all the time. I love, I love, I love making it happen.

• 36:32Ed Mylett?

  Hmm. Very good. This is so deep. Okay. So those are technical things. Conceptually, you talk a lot about empathy, which surprised me candidly. Um, you know, you're, you have a presence about you. You have a command presence about you. I think just maybe that's natural. You've obviously worked on it. And one of my biggest criticisms in the world today of all leaders that I see, I wish I saw more empathy. All the way to the top. I mean, I think some of these folks have just tremendous skill sets, yet I don't see a lot of empathy.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  We didn't see any last Thursday night that.

• 37:09Ed Mylett?

  We did, we did not. This, you're reading, you're reading my mind. So we're recording this about a week after the debate that you all have. Talked about it for sure. This will come out a few weeks after that, but that you're reading my mind. And so. And I've actually had reps from both those guys and both those guys in my life and told both those guys, man, if you showed a little empathy, I think you'd. Connect a lot deeper with people. That aside, just in general, that concept. I thrilled is almost like the center of your work almost.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is. It is.

• 37:37Ed Mylett?

  So can you just talk about it, please? And that, because I think a lot of the stuff people hear, I gotta modulate my tone. I don't know if I can do that. But when you say intention matters and empathy matters, now I think a lot of people go, now that. That I got some of that, that I possess as a good human being. So go ahead.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and I love the phrase you looked earlier, seeing things through a different lens. And empathy is effectively having a clear understanding of the lens. Now define it very narrowly. Don't equate it to sympathy. Don't equate it to agreement. You know, I mentioned Bob Menucha before his book beyond winning best chapter on empathy I've ever written. I mean, better than anything we wrote never split the difference. Everybody that comes auditions for my team. I have them read several things, Menucha's chapter, the tension between empathy and assertiveness. And I say, you explain this to me. You tell me what you got out of it. Cause I gotta, I gotta know how far off of. Empathy you are and how confused you are.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  And Menucha says empathy is not agreeing with the other side. You don't even gotta like. To be able to articulate what their perspectives. Articulating the other person's perspective, not just knowing. Not just understanding what it is, but you gotta say it out loud and the emphasis has to be on their negative thoughts against you.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Now, if you can articulate the other person's negative thoughts against you without following up with a but here's why you're wrong. Any, any explanation.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  You will trigger. Their bonding with you faster than anything else you could do and it is nearly.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  It's the lowest maintenance bond. It's just darn near unbreakable. When someone feels completely hurt.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  And it'll dissolve arguments. In ways that you will be astonished by, like astonished. And if you can, it's just Stephen Kotler said empathy is the transmission of information. Compassion is the reaction to that transmission. So you gotta really sort it out and separate it from. The other, from compassion, from sympathy, from agreement, from liking. If you could do that, you got a superpower that works globally.

• 40:06Ed Mylett?

  This is so good. So good. Rule I was taught since I was young, start getting people to say yes to things, small yeses will lead to the big yes. And I'm reading your stuff, you're like, no, it doesn't. So, uh, is that accurate that you don't need to get small agreements to build to a big agreement? Or is it the actual word yes in a conversation with somebody?

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, and, and that's unfortunately then again, I'll use the term weaponized. Yes, has been weaponized against us. And, and everybody on earth. Has had that done to them. Um, and I think there was a point in time when that was really effective. But everybody did it. They like. It's, they, salespeople for, since that idea first came up, at least a hundred years. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, bang. And the timeshare salespeople were doing that, you know? This, you know, the, the guy, the guy who, when I was eighteen, sold me the coupon book for twenty five dollars, supposed to give me five thousand dollars in discounts. That I still haven't figured out.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  So then then the word is an instant trigger. Um, you've been battered. Now, there's a difference between yes and agreement because you know, you understand what the difference between yes and agreement is and what what real agreement like when somebody agrees all in, they say that's right.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  And they don't say yes. So the stupid part of this is if you could just switch from yes to no, instead of saying, do you disagree, you say, do you disagree? Instead of saying, have you got a few minutes to talk, you say, is now a bad time to talk? Yeah, yeah. If I if I get you to do that, and you know, my company, we've actually developed a a list of the top ten yes oriented questions. Switch to no. Like it. Because you got you get the scripting down and you get your repetitions in and pretty soon you never try to get anybody to say yes, and suddenly your life is accelerated. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't, nothing that matters. I don't, we are out of the yes business. I'm constantly going for no. I got less friction in my life across the board.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  My if I could tell my favorite story, Walter O'Brien. The guy that the TV show, The Scorpion. Walter Brand, one of the smartest guys on planet Earth, his IQ has been tested like second or third highest IQ ever recorded. I I know Walter personally, I like him. And he's as smart as he's built to be. So we're both beginning a conference, we roll into this restaurant, it's crowded, we're trying to get, you know, five, six of us trying to get a drink. And just for happy hour, and there's a roped off section with uh uh empty tables and not letting anybody sit there. I see Walter walk over and he's talking to the waitress and I just see the waitress going.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  And he comes back and goes, yeah, we can't, we can't sit down. This is a perfect follow up for me. I want to beat the guy with the highest IQ.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  I walk up to the waitress and I go, would it ruin your entire evening if we sat down at these at these empty chairs? And she goes, no, you just got to be out here by six thirty. We got reservations at six thirty. It's four thirty in the afternoon. I'm like, I guarantee you, we're gonna be out here. We sit right down.

• 43:20Ed Mylett?

  It's so good, man. I gotta tell you, I got off of this thing on saying yes years ago myself too. I always default to the no. And in terms like, is it like, would it be a total disaster if we sat here for a while? You know, like, and almost reduce it to the ridiculous. But also, it's what I love about your work. I'm gonna tell everybody this. If you want to be more connected to people, forget persuasion, just connected to people. Or if you do want to be more persuasive, better communicator, better speaker. The reason I like Chris's work is it feels like less work. And it feels like more things you would say anyway in your life, and you don't feel manipulative when you're doing it. Like, that is what I would say to somebody. Would it ruin your night if we sat here for a couple hours before everybody?

• 44:04Ed Mylett?

  Like, that is how I would say it naturally, not knowing any of these skills, yet we've all been programmed to somehow think we've got to come in with some overt covert game plan all the time. Yet, these are skills that, and I think the other thing you said is right, like some things work, they're just played out now. Like, wouldn't you agree, Thursday or Friday, six or 8:00 PM, all these things, you hear them now from people. You're like, oh, you're doing that thing to me, right? The biggest thing I wanted to ask you, since I've known you existed. Is there a hack to know if someone's telling you the truth or they're lying? Is there, are there things you read, verbal and nonverbal cues, that this person is not being truthful with me?

• 44:46Ed Mylett?

  Or the contrary, this person is being truthful with me?

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Short answer is yes. And everybody, it's contextual. How does a polygraph work? It's not whether or not somebody's lying, it's what they look like when they're telling the truth. And so I need to talk to you long enough to get a draw on you, because when you tell the truth, you pretty much tell the truth one way, period. It's how a good polygrapher is gonna ask you a bunch of baseline questions. A good polygraph examination's gotta be at least 30 questions. Bunch of baseline questions. What's your name? What day is it? Where are you? What'd you have for breakfast? Draw a beat on what somebody looks like when they tell the truth, if they ever tell the truth.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  A good pro- prologer will come back and say this guy's deceptive across the board. Not, I can't tell you where he's lying or where he's telling the truth. He's always deceiving. So if you tell the truth, you gotta lay down a baseline. Now, when they come out of it, it doesn't matter. Do they look up? Do they look down? Did they hold their breath? All they, all they know, all you know is they came out. So it's not a quick hack. Yeah. It's getting in context, which then to some degree, you talked about playing golf before. Reason why a lot of business relationships are solidified on a golf course, because you spend eight hours with somebody.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  You begin to develop a feel for, are they constantly kicking their ball out of the, the tall grass? And, and are they, you know, is it gimme always when they're four feet from the hole? Is, is it gimme, it ain't two inches from the hole? You get a solid look at somebody over eight hours. Your gut instinct is lining up. Are they honest ever? And what do they look like when you're being honest? And that's the value of most people, why they want to play golf with people. And, you know, how, how they gonna, how they gonna, how they gonna be a team player? You know, I'm a horrible golfer. And these guys make me go out on a golf course with them about a year and a half ago.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  I run out of golf balls. I'm losing so many golf balls.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  So what am I doing? I'm picking up my ball, so I'm not slowing everybody down. I'm like, and I don't want to ruin the afternoon for you guys. Yeah, I, I'm not hiding the fact that, you know, I'm, I'm all over the place and I'm not complaining. I'm not kicking my ball out of the rough. Half the time I can't find it, rough. But I think what I showed those guys also is like, I'm not going to slow the team down based on me doing a lousy job.

• 47:25Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  So, you know, that's a long answer to your question. It's your gut, you're feeding your gut and what's your gut looking for? What does somebody look like when they're telling a truth?

• 47:34Ed Mylett?

  That's so good. I played golf with a guy I was going to do a deal with. It's just so right. By the way, the guy who kicks his ball and all that, but this dude, it was just, you're right. He had a normal pattern of phraseology, physically, but also his phraseology. And then when you'd ask him his score, like three or four times in the round, instead of saying, I had a five or I had a seven, he would say this to me when he would get in the golf cart. Put me down for a six. You know what I mean? And there's two things about that. One, what am I putting you down for something? What did you? And, and by the way, you had a nine, right? We both know you had a nine, but put me down for a six. And the, and two things occurred to me. One, you're deceptive, right? And two, you think I'm pretty stupid.

• 48:17Ed Mylett?

  You like, and, and he's the guy at the end of the round. I love this too in golf. At the end of the round, when you're all sitting around having a drink afterwards, you go, what did you shoot? You go, I shot 82 or I shot 93. He actually honestly would tell you, oh, I shot what was over on that scorecard. I shot 86. I'm like, bro, that's because you got put down for a six on 11 different holes. You took a nine, but you're right. You do learn a lot. And I think the takeaway for me there is seeing if there's a pattern interrupt after you see somebody's patterns of how they speak, their eye contact, how they move, phraseology, looking for the eye contact. This is like a masterclass for me. And it's again, guys, why I recommend Chris's work across the board.

• 49:27Ed Mylett?

  When you're, I wore a goofy looking shirt today. My show's mainly audio. But I wanted to ask you this as well. I'm wearing a color shirt. I wear black and blue about every day. Like it's just what I wear. Black t-shirt, jeans, every day. And I've got different content I gotta do today. I'm speaking to some different types of groups. So I've got this like pinky peach shirt on everybody if you're listening to audio. I'm wondering, I'm wondering if part of connecting with people, if it's going to be in person, is also mirroring them physically and/or how you look and dress? Is there any element of that in walking into a negotiation or a persuasive environment? Cause for me, sometimes it's disarming if someone's dressed completely differently than everybody else in the room.

• 50:13Ed Mylett?

  And I, I feel a disconnection when that happens, but I'm curious if that's any part of your work at all.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Uh, so weaponizing again. Alright, so if you and I are really getting in sync, we're gonna find our body language is gonna start to line up. Cause we're gonna feel really comfortable with each other. Now there are a lot of people that go like, ah, with you, the sooner I could seduce you into, into what I want. I want a win-win deal that's gonna be fair. You know, a guy's gonna start mirroring your body language right away. What really matters is are you actually interested in the other side? So you, you come in with a clown suit.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Nothing matches. And the minute you're actually interested in the other person, all the surface stuff goes away.

• 51:00Ed Mylett?

  So it matters, but it doesn't if there's a real connection?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, go for a real connection. And, and that's why you, you'll find people that, you know, they dress crazy or none of the demographics seem to line up. And then when none of the, but suddenly

• 51:17Speaker 02

  they're great friends and, and, and they get along great and they make great deals to you. And you say like, you guys are, guys general, uh, gender agnostic come. You, you guys got like nothing in common on, on the surface. But you're wired similarly underneath. And that's what people are really hoping for. The surface stuff is, is ideally it's an indicator of what's underneath.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  The tip of the iceberg. And when you get into what's underneath, that's when people really resonate.

• 51:50Ed Mylett?

  What's the, I got a couple more things for you. What's the, um, could you share? Was there a negotiation that didn't go the right way that you'll never?

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. I mean, hostage negotiators got a batting average of about ninety-three percent success rate. So you start climbing over double digits. At some point in time, something's going to go bad. It's just the way it is. And the first one that, that, the first real, really, really bad, tough one that happened was in the Philippines after a huge success. The Schilling case was a monumental success.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Left the bad guys in a shambles. Their organization was, uh, their hierarchy was out of shape. They, they didn't get any, they got no ransom. Nobody got killed and the hostage walked away. And, you know, it's like a Super Bowl team.

• 52:39Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  They win a championship, then they don't want to play together the following year. Cause everybody's resentful that they didn't get enough credit for the, the championship. So rolled back into the Philippines, another subsequent case and like, nobody's cooperating. Like there, and unfortunately it was the anniversary of the ending of that case, Burnham Subarao case. A lot of people got killed. Martin Burnham got killed and by friendly fire at the end. His wife Grace is still alive. Got two phenomenal books out about, about her experience. One is In the Presence of My Enemies and the other is To Fly Again. And I happen to be reviewing that and it was the anniversary of the end of that recently. And that was a mess. And when it finally ended with a box rescue attempt, two of the three remaining hostages getting shot by friendly fire.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Grace, she got shot through the leg. I mean, to me, that was, that was, I had not lost anybody that I was responsible for up to that period in time. And I remember thinking my, my boss mentor Gary Nester's words, best chance of success. Best chance of success, highest batting average, communication skills that work more than anything else, still don't work all the time. And the acceptance that you can't make every deal. Acceptance, there are some people, it's not a sin to not get the deal. It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal.

• 54:01Ed Mylett?

  Hmm.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Just through acceptance of that reality and then, and then getting crushed by it. And I, you know, how I was harmed by it professionally. Maxed up in no way, shape or form to what the families went through.

• 54:16Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  And I actually was, when I finally realized, you know, what do you got to complain about? It wasn't your father, wasn't, wasn't your brother that got killed?

• 54:25Ed Mylett?

  Hmm.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  So yeah, there, there are failures and post-traumatic stress growth. Is what you're looking for after you get crushed.

• 54:35Ed Mylett?

  Wow, what a great answer. All right, I guess last question, I'd go three hours with you. I wish the show was three hour show because I feel like I've asked you like three things that I, of the three hundred, I've always wanted to ask you, so maybe we'll do this again as well. But just a simple thing that I've always wondered. And take your time on this. Can you make a good deal with a bad person? In other words, they just have bad intent. Is there, should, should more people just? I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about this thing I was describing to you with me, right? This situation I'm going through. I'm like, should I just walk? Because I'm trying to deal in integrity and honesty and, you know, above board to some extent. I know not to say that to him because, you know, you've talked about these different phrases, but.

• 55:19Ed Mylett?

  And I just kind of know they're not. Yet I'm sitting here and I think a lot of people relate to this. I'm like, yeah, but. I can still find middle ground. I played baseball with guys on my team who had a lot of home runs who weren't great dudes and we didn't get along. But they helped the team and we made good things happen together. But the more and more I see people trying to bond and connect with a person in their relationship who's just not in it like they are. Or they're trying to make a business deal with somebody who's just, their intent is to do, to, to win and you lose. Should, can you still make deals with those people once you know that? And if you can, how?

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Uh, so my definition of a great deal, uh, requires a great long-term relationship of trust. So can you have a great marriage with a cheating spouse? Now you may have some great crazy wild nights with a cheating spouse, em- em physically satisfying. And it ain't gonna last. So my answer is no. No matter how lucrative the deal is in the moment, it's gonna cost you long term. It's gonna be blood money. It's gonna hurt. You're gonna regret it. You're gonna wish you'd never done. No matter how much you made in in the era. In the early days of Black Swan, we had a business relationship with a company where I knew the president of the company was lying and deceiving to me.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  At that point in time, the short term upside, we got some development of my people, uh, we get some training development. We we learned a a lot in in a year and a half, two years. We were together and I knew it was gonna come to an end. And I stayed in it only because I made that business decision at the time, but I wasn't kidding myself to it coming to an end. And it came to an end badly. And it was resentment that probably still exists to this day.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  Now, that's the only time. Um, you know, don't kid yourself. There's there's an old metaphor, you know, the the frog and the scorpion crossing a river. The scorpion wants a ride and says to the frog, like, look, if I if I stab you while we're going across the river, we both die. That would be a bad thing for me to do. Frog buys into the malarkey and halfway across the river, the scorpion stings him and they both drown. And the frog says, you know, why? This was this is hurting you as much hurting me. The scorpion says, cause I'm a scorpion and that's what we do.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  The scorpion is always gonna be a scorpion. You know, the the the whatever that creature is, no matter what they say to you. Don't ever, don't expect them to turn into anything different. Don't kid yourself about it. Don't expect it to be a long term relationship.

• 58:03Ed Mylett?

  Everybody, I ask questions sometimes that I already feel strongly about the answer for, and I can tell you at fifty three years old, what this man just said is twenty five billion percent correct. The scorpion will eventually be a scorpion and it's better to pull out earlier than it is too late. Because usually those those uh, stings become more and more deadly and terminal the longer term and bigger your relationship becomes with them. That's been my experience, so. You are right, Chris. This is such a good ride today, brother. It was so good and I'm grateful for it. And I want, you know, I've obviously, I do, you know, I do a lot of podcasts. I don't usually promote the person's work four or five times throughout, but it's just made such an impact on me. So I do want people to go get Never Split the Difference. You should go do

• 58:46Ed Mylett?

  that. And what is your Instagram? Because that's where you want them to find you socially, right? That's usually.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, at the FBI Negotiate. The FBI Negotiator. We post a lot of stuff on there, putting a lot of content, stuff you could use, and we'll tell you about stuff we're doing. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna want you to jump into our training with. So that's a good place to go.

• 59:05Ed Mylett?

  So good, you guys. Chris, thank you for today. Hey, everyone, I don't have to ask you to do it. You're gonna share this one all over the place. This was a great conversation. I'm very grateful for it. Chris Voss, thank you so much. God bless you, everybody. Max out.