The Finance Expert Who Was Scammed Out of $50K (w/ Charlotte Cowles)

This week Haley is joined by the financial advice coumnist for The Cut, Charlotte Cowles, to discuss her experience being scammed out of $50K and answer some listener questions. Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Haley Sacks?

  Okay, we all love to romanticize being your own boss, but even when you have a team, you still end up being the bookkeeper, the marketing department, and the person rearranging appointments at 11:00 PM. And that work isn't just annoying, it is expensive. And it's especially taxing for businesses that run on appointments. So if you own a business that takes bookings, this one's for you. Gloss Genius is the system that runs the operations for you behind the scenes. Scheduling, payments, admin, handled automatically. Payment processing is a flat rate with zero hidden fees. And check out rebook's clients on the spot. Clients can book in seconds too, so there's no login or separate app necessary. So you actually get more appointments. 125,000

• 0:45Haley Sacks?

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• 0:59Speaker 01

  The other day I was going through my desk and I found a journal right from when I graduated, and it had pen and paper, how much I spent each day. At this time, I think I was making around $40,000 and excess cash flow was pretty tight. So I had to watch every penny. I think about how far we've come with technology and advancements to help us with this stuff. We don't need a journal with pen and paper anymore. The answers are out there. And Monarch is one of those answers. Monarch is literally, it's like having a financial advisor in your pocket. So you can use AI to help see what you're spending. Monarch will help you have full visibility in your accounts. It will help you see your trends. It will help you set goals, map out big purchases, see if

• 1:44Speaker 01

  you're actually on track to where you wanted to be. You can ask Monarch's AI assistant anything about your finances. Like, hey, how much should I spend on travel last summer? Can I afford this vacation without touching my savings? You can spot things you wouldn't think about before, like, oh, hey, has my spending gone up or just inflation? I was using pen and paper. Now you can use tools, like a full financial advisor in your pocket, and that's called Monarch. So what you want to do is you want to go to monarch.com, use code TRADING. The first year of Monarch Core is half off at just 50 bucks. That's 50% off your first year. Just go to monarch.com with code trading.

• 2:28Haley Sacks?

  I think that we all can get lulled into a false sense of security about our own ability to dodge scams. Like you said, that I was the first guest you'd had who'd been scammed. And I guarantee you that is not true.

• 2:43Haley Sacks?

  This is Financial Tea.

• 2:48Haley Sacks?

  What's up, sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is the podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. So today in the studio, we have the brilliant Charlotte Cowles. She's the writer and financial advice columnist at The Cut at New York Magazine. Charlotte, I am a truly religious reader of your column, so having you here is a major moment for me. But what makes your perspective, I feel like, so uniquely fascinating is that you are a literal personal finance expert. Like you have such great advice, you know so much about things, and you fell for what I would call brutally sophisticated financial scam, and you were conned out of

• 3:29Haley Sacks?

  $50,000. So I want to get into your entire story. And then I also really want to tap into your expertise to solve some of our juicy listener dilemmas. We're going to do a little Dear Sugar Mama advice column. So Charlotte, welcome to the Financial Tea Podcast.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

• 3:47Haley Sacks?

  But first, let's get into the MDJ Market Report.

• 3:52Haley Sacks?

  What's up, sippers? I want to start this week's market report talking about diarrhea. Yes, the lettuce disease, given everyone the runs. That parasite, we've got to dig into because it sort of perfectly explains why the stock market is absolutely unhinged in the short term in the craziest way. So here's the tea. A massive cyclospora outbreak, which that is the first time that I've said that word out loud. I've read it a lot, so let me know how I did. Yes, the parasite, yes, the diarrhea one, has been traced back to agricultural supplier, Taylor Farms. You might know Taylor Farms from their bag salads. I feel like those are always a hit, you know, bag Thai salad, who doesn't want that? But they also supply lettuce

• 4:35Haley Sacks?

  to a lot of restaurants. So the CDC has now linked over 1,600 confirmed diarrhea cases to shredded iceberg lettuce grown in central Mexico. Half of the country's salads have been secretly plotting against them, which, I mean, what a relief for people who don't like salad. You know what I mean? You guys were right all along. And I will say that the corporate fallout was immediate, like Walmart yanked four bagged salad products off their shelves. Taco Bell full on broke up with Taylor Farms, like fully dropped them as a supplier. It was cold blooded. They cut menu items entirely, like Taco Bell really did the most with this. I mean, this was a lettuce breakup arc that nobody asked for. And naturally, Wall Street had to get into

• 5:19Haley Sacks?

  it because they're emo AF, and they have the emotional range of a toddler who like dropped their ice cream cone. And Walmart and Yum Brands, which is Taco Bell's parent company, both took an immediate hit the second the diarrhea news freaking broke. But here's where it gets unhinged. Sweetgreen stock jumped almost 14%. Why? Because they don't even use iceberg lettuce. And they got publicly cleared of any link to the outbreak. So that's it. That is the whole reason that their stock jumped 14%. Investors panicked, sold the taco, and panicked bought the kale, like it was a group chat breakup and everyone had to pick a side. Translation,

• 5:59Haley Sacks?

  the stock market in the short term is just a giant emotionally unregulated popularity contest that reacts to headlines, vibes, and of course, the occasional diarrhea parasite. It is not thinking clearly. It is not doing math. It literally saw like lettuce bad, kale good, and ran with it like it was breaking news from The Bachelor Mansion. And let me ask you a question. Does a temporary lettuce recall fundamentally take the decades-long value of a literal global retail empire like Walmart? No, obviously not. People aren't canceling Walmart. They're just avoiding the salad aisle for a minute. But you guys, this is exactly why you invest for the long term and you don't day trade. When you're playing the

• 6:43Haley Sacks?

  long game, you can just fully ignore this daily chaos. You just let the day traders spiral over the lettuce while you sit back, you stay diversified, and you build actual generational wealth. And by the way, I have been marked safe from the diarrhea, even though I have been eating Sweetgreen's new wraps, not sponsored, every day. They're so good. I recommend trying them. Okay, our second story is about Olivia Rodrigo's new finance boyfriend. Yes, our girl Olivia, she might have gone on Hinge, honestly, because her new boyfriend is like fully a finance bro. Specifically, he works in private equity. He's an associate. His name is Julian Krunenbergs. It's always weird when a last name is plural, although I guess my last name is plural, so forget that. That one just seems more plural than mine. But they've been spotted multiple times in Brooklyn. They went on a group trip

• 7:28Haley Sacks?

  to Iceland. And this is a man who works at HG Capital after a stint in investment banking at, you guessed it, Goldman Sachs. Like, he might have a Bloomberg terminal. We don't know. And this is just a really big departure, almost shockingly so, from Rodrigo's usual pattern of like dating within entertainment. But I do find that it fits a broader celebrity dating trend, where finance guys are dating these massive female stars because they offer stability and discretion that industry relationships often lack. Reese Witherspoon, I mean, she's been doing it to it with her investor boyfriend, Oliver Harmon. I mean, they're always on a yacht together, like being sexual. And I basically feel like rich, successful women are realizing that the best way to protect their peace isn't by dating another

• 8:13Haley Sacks?

  star. It's just by dating a guy who wants to quietly manage the portfolio and let you shine. And I really believe in that in my own love life, too. But what's also amazing about these girls, it's like, we think about dating rich finance guys as like, oh, we want to be trad wives. But what I love about Olivia and Reese is like, they're not looking for providers. They're really looking for cap table alignment. Studies consistently show that financial compatibility is one of the biggest predictors of a relationship's survival. And I just think that when you're a multimillionaire, financial compatibility isn't about like agreeing on a grocery budget as much as it's like speaking the same financial language. And I just feel like it also completely removes the intimidation factor and the weird power dynamics that happen when one partner out earns the other by millions. These girls don't

• 8:57Haley Sacks?

  need the finance guy's money, but they do need a partner who isn't intimidated by theirs, which is honestly harder to find than you would think. So I think the conversation here isn't about traditional gender roles, because these women are already moguls. Like I said, they're not trying to like be trad wives with these rich guys. I think the lesson is more about financial alignment and how much that matters, and how it actually matters more than aesthetic alignment. If you seek a partner whose financial habits and risk tolerance and long-term goals balance out your own, that really is the ultimate relationship hedge. So I'm into this, and I hope it lasts. Okay, and for our final story, I just want to mention, because I do make a lot of predictions on the show, and I did tell you not to buy SpaceX.

• 9:41Haley Sacks?

  And SpaceX shares have fallen below their $135 IPO price after peaking at a $2.64 trillion valuation just three days into trading, which erased roughly $1 trillion in market value. And basically, in English, what that means is the stock popped, and now it dropped. And so if you bought it at the IPO, you were some like Elon freak who was like, I need to get it right when it comes out, you have now lost money, which is sad, I feel for you. But if you had listened to Mrs. Dow Jones on Financial Tea, you would know that we never buy IPOs. Like even if we are obsessed with a company, if it goes public, we wait. We buy

• 10:21Haley Sacks?

  it a few months later. So like today, July 30th, if you're like me, you love Jersey Mike's. Like I am a turkey pro-life girl, even with the diarrhea going around. I've been getting that sandwich with the lettuce and the tomatoes and the relish. It's so freaking good. And they're IPO-ing today. I love them. But I know it's going to do the same thing as SpaceX. It's going to pop and drop. So I'm not going to buy it now. I'm going to wait if I want to buy that stock. And this doesn't mean that all IPOs are bad. It just means that you need to be patient. Like if you look at history, if you need proof that waiting works, when Meta Which was like the most hyped IPO of its era debuted on the New York Stock Exchange. It was at $38 and all the retail investors rushed in.

• 11:05Haley Sacks?

  But then, after a few months, the hype died down and the stock crashed to $17. So the people who waited it out and bought it at $17 then made a fortune when the stock eventually climbed past $500. Okay, guys, I hope that you enjoyed this episode with Charlotte Cowell. She is the finance writer for The Cut. I love her work, but also she has like a crazy personal finance story that you are going to freak out over. It is truly juicy financial tea. Oh, and don't forget to rate and subscribe. It really helps the show, so like, you know, stay rich.

• 11:42Haley Sacks?

  So let's start with our rapid fire questions. So first of all, what are your best and worst purchases of the week? And how much were they?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Best purchase of the week? I bought my four-year-old son a rocket ship. It has arrived. He doesn't know it's here yet. And it was $46.99.

• 12:06Haley Sacks?

  I love it.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Which was kind of expensive for a toy.

• 12:09Haley Sacks?

  Amazon?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  No, it was like some random toy website.

• 12:12Haley Sacks?

  He's gonna love it.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  It's gonna be great.

• 12:14Haley Sacks?

  You are a freelance journalist at New York Magazine. I feel like there's a lot of question about working in media. So I wanted to ask, how much do you make per year doing that?

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  It varies a lot. I think any freelancer would tell you that. It's usually, I mean, I've had like a bad year would be like probably about $80,000. And a good year would be like, you know, in well into the six figures.

• 12:46Haley Sacks?

  Wow, okay.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  I mean, by which I mean like over $100,000.

• 12:50Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Okay, love that.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:52Haley Sacks?

  Before we dive into the drama, though, I do want to just kick things off with the basics. We've sort of talked a little bit already about that you work at New York Magazine. You, you know, write for The Cut. But for any of our sippers who are somehow living under a rock, can you introduce yourself a little bit? And just tell us about your world and sort of what you do and how you do it?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  I have been a journalist for almost my whole career. And I've worked in magazines, I've worked for newspapers, and I am currently a freelancer. So I'm on contract with a couple of different places, mostly New York Magazine. And in 2016, they asked me to start writing about money for them. And at the time, I really had no background in it. I was like, I don't think I'm qualified to write about this. And they were like, we understand, but I think that your perspective, at that time, not a lot of people were writing about money. Most financial journalism was coming from people who, you know, it was like the Wall Street Journal.

• 13:53Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  And they wanted someone who could write about money from a layperson's perspective. So I approached it from that perspective, you know. When I was giving financial advice, I wasn't giving my own advice. And I still don't. I still don't even think of myself as an expert at all. Like, I don't have, you know, any true, I'm not a CFP, like, I don't, I'm not an accountant. I have interviewed a lot of people who are CFPs and accountants and people like you who research and know this stuff really well. Whenever people would write in with a question or ask me a question, I would then go and find someone who knew how to answer it. And then I would sort of approach it from there.

• 14:34Haley Sacks?

  Like a broker of knowledge.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 14:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. You've got the expert, you make it palatable, and then you share it.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:40Haley Sacks?

  But you're also good at getting people to give you really, really juicy info.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Right, so along the way, I'm sure you realize this too. As soon as you start talking about money, I think it like opens the floodgates. Like, suddenly, you know, you're at a cocktail party and someone has like cornered you, telling you all about like, you know, their weird.

• 15:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  I love it. There are times when I'm like, I really just wanted to get a glass of wine. And now I'm stuck here in the corner. But I think that it opened up this huge niche for me in terms of my career. And also something that felt really intimate and, you know, exciting. But also, like, I just feel really privileged that people share this stuff with me.

• 15:24Haley Sacks?

  So you're getting a little bit of wine, like, what is the juiciest story that someone's cornered you about?

• 15:29Speaker 02

  A lot of the time, it has to do with like their relationship.

• 15:33Haley Sacks?

  It's always, because I do Dear Sugar Mama, which is like my financial advice column. And I'd say like 90% of what I hear is just people, financial infidelity.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:43Haley Sacks?

  Hot in money, secret bank accounts, doing this.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Like, or, you know, secret credit card debt. Or, you know, like, they'll talk about just having a credit card that that they just have never paid. You know, it's just like sitting there accruing interest. Like, it's, it's sort of crazy to me, but also, hearing about all that stuff, everyone also always thinks they're the worst. Like, without a doubt, they're always like, I'm so bad with money, like, I don't know anything. And most of those people are doing fine or doing a lot better than people who think they're doing great.

• 16:15Haley Sacks?

  That's so funny. So you think the people who think they're doing great are actually the ones who are doing the worst?

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Well, it's more that I think that there are a lot of people who are, who like fancy themselves, like, you know, good at trading.

• 16:28Haley Sacks?

  Oh, that's horrible.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  And those are always the people who are actually in a lot of trouble or don't have like traditional 401K or any sort of just like boring savings vehicles.

• 16:37Haley Sacks?

  They're gambling, they're not.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So those are often the people that I'm always just like, good luck to you, sir.

• 16:45Speaker 03

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• 17:13Speaker 03

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• 17:24Speaker 04

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• 17:54Haley Sacks?

  Okay, so I know that you have been making the rounds talking about this, but I did want to ask you about the scam. I have a friend of mine who is a social psychologist and he studies cybercrime. And I was talking to him before you came on, and he was telling me something that really blew my mind, which is that scammers don't actually want their scams to be completely seamless. Like, they purposefully leave just enough room for you to sort of feel foolish because they're actively weaponizing your shame to keep you silent. I bring that up because I just think by breaking that silence and talking about being scammed, especially as a personal finance writer, you did such a massive public service.

• 18:38Haley Sacks?

  And so let's just start from the beginning. For my listeners who are coming to the story fresh, you're the first person we've had on the Financial Tea who was scammed. So walk us through what happened. Like, how did they pull off a $50,000 heist from you in broad daylight?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  First of all, this was a couple of years ago. So some of, some of this technology has changed.

• 18:59Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  But at the time, I received a call from Amazon. Like, it showed up on my phone as Amazon, like, on the caller ID. And to my knowledge, they don't place calls anymore. But back then, they would occasionally call people if there was fraudulent activity on their account. And so I received a call from someone who, you know, said she was from Amazon. You know, it's, she sounded professional.

• 19:24Haley Sacks?

  Amazon-y.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she was like, there's been fraudulent activity on your account, and I wanted to confirm these transactions. And I was like, I didn't make any of these transactions. You know, it was, it was buying like a bunch of laptops and stuff, you know? And I was like, no. And, you know, your credit card company will do the same thing, right? So it didn't, it didn't seem, I mean, obviously.

• 19:44Haley Sacks?

  It seemed like a normal financial behavior of a company to do, to call you and confirm a purchase.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Right. And she was like, okay, I'm gonna transfer you to someone who can help. And then, you know, like, I didn't see any of this information on my account. So I was like, yeah, we need to shut this down. And they said that another business account had been opened under my name.

• 20:05Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  And I was like.

• 20:06Haley Sacks?

  Wow, I'm really getting fucked up now.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I was like, this is annoying. And then I, they transferred me to someone who said he was with law enforcement and was working on these cases.

• 20:21Haley Sacks?

  Immediately, they transferred you. So you pick up the phone, they're like, you've been buying laptops. So then they're like, wait, we've got a detective on the line.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  It took longer than that. Like, every step, it felt like a very standard sort of customer, you know? We have to get this information from you, blah, blah, blah. And then they were like, we are having so many issues with this.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Specific scam that we had, were working with law enforcement on it? Would you be willing to talk to them about this? And I was like,

• 20:53Haley Sacks?

  Of course.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  That seems weird, but sure.

• 20:55Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  You know, like,

• 20:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I would have done that too.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  It seemed odd, but I was like, sure. And then they transferred me to someone who knew my full name, knew my social security number, knew all this information about me and was like, we've actually been following your case for months because someone has been impersonating you and has committed all of these crimes under your name. And what followed was honestly, almost too confusing. It took place over like five or six hours. And he eventually transferred me to someone else who he claimed was further up in law enforcement and said that they were investigating an international crime ring

• 21:39Speaker 02

  and my name had been used by, by this crime ring to launder money. And so there were all of these like open warrants for my arrest in various states. And I'm like Googling all this stuff, like, are there warrants? Like, what, what is going on? And not all arrest warrants are public in different states. Like, it was, it was just very, the whole time I was like, I don't think this makes any sense, but also I don't know. And at one point, he had me go to a specific page that had like a number to call for certain types of crimes. And he was like, I'm part of that division and hang up and I'm going to call you from that number. And so I did hang up and then he called me from that number.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  You know, that's what it showed up on my caller ID. I didn't know at the time that you can duplicate any, you can spoof any number.

• 22:30Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  So that it shows up on your caller ID, but I didn't know that at the time. He also, he told me that I was in danger and that more specifically, my kid was in danger and he knew my kid's name and he knew my husband's name and he knew where we lived. And that,

• 22:43Haley Sacks?

  He really played to your emotions.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that in itself just made me terrified.

• 22:48Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, it would have made me terrified too.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  I was like, can I just come into your office? Maybe we can like work this out. And he was like, no, we have to do this today. He said that all of my assets were about to be frozen.

• 22:59Haley Sacks?

  Stop.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  And if I needed access to any of it, I needed to go withdraw the money from my bank account. So I did that. And then he told me that one of his colleagues would come to my house and would need to take that money to keep it secure. And at that point, I was like, you can't send someone to my house. Like, my kid lives here.

• 23:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  And he was like, they'll be there in 30 minutes. And so at that point, like, I would have given him my passport. Like, I would have done anything to get these people to just go away.

• 23:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Like, I was terrified. They knew where I lived. They told me that someone was coming to my house. So that's what, that's what I did. Like, they came to my house and I told them they couldn't come inside because my son was home and I went outside and gave them money and they drove away.

• 23:51Haley Sacks?

  What did they look like?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  It was a man in a car. And I was on the phone with one of the people that I'd been talking to during the day. And he, he told me not to talk to the man in the car and not to look at him. And at that point, I was, I was like begging with him.

• 24:08Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, it was horrible.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  And it has also happened to many other people. And after I wrote about it, I've gotten many emails from people who've had this specific scam happen to them. And also, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of emails from other people who've had other, you know, very personal scams inflicted on them.

• 24:35Haley Sacks?

  Wow. I think, first of all, I want to just talk about, now that you're on the other side of this and you've had so much time to reflect, what are the red flags that you see in the process that you could tell us to look out for? Because I also think, I have a lot of like younger listeners and I think that it's important for us also to know how to teach our parents. Because they're so susceptible too.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Fun fact, there's actually no correlation between older people being more likely to get scammed.

• 25:09Haley Sacks?

  Oh, really?

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:10Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  You're just as likely to get scammed if you're younger as you are if you're older. You are just more susceptible to different types of scams. So we think of like dotty old people, like falling for like,

• 25:25Haley Sacks?

  Oh, bleep, bloop.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, my internet's not working. And it's actually, younger people are, are just as likely as older people to get scammed. Yeah. Usually there, there are also two different types of scams. There's opportunity based scams, which are like, here's this sexy lady who wants to talk to me. So they're like romance scams or investment scams, things like that. And those appeal to a very different psychology than threat based scams. So I fell for a threat based scam because I was terrified and they made, you know, they, they told me that I was in danger. I think that we all can get lulled into a false sense of security

• 26:11Speaker 02

  about our own ability to dodge scams. Like you said, that I was the first guest you'd had who'd been scammed. And I guarantee you that is not true. Like, we all are targeted by scams every day. Some people fall for scams and they don't even know it. Like, you've probably bought something that was counterfeit at some point and you had no idea.

• 26:29Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  You might still not know. So people fall for little scams all the time. And this was obviously a very big scam. And I, when I figured it out, I just, I couldn't believe it.

• 26:45Haley Sacks?

  Wait, so you gave the guy the money?

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:47Haley Sacks?

  You didn't look at him?

• 26:48Speaker 02

  And I got back inside and they had told me that I had, because my social security number had been compromised, that I needed to go to the social security office the next day and that they were going to send me like a confirmation of my appointment time. And I was still on the phone with them. They wouldn't let me off the phone. Finally, they said that it was going to be at a time the next day when I had a meeting. And I was like, no, I told you that I had a meeting during that time and I can't go like this. And then they were like, we'll call you back tomorrow. And I was like, you said all this had to happen today.

• 27:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  And then it just, it started kind of like coming together in my brain.

• 27:32Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. I think also it was probably so confusing that they kept you on the phone the whole day because it made it so you didn't have space to think critically.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  No, it's a tactic. Yeah, I mean, they know what they're doing.

• 27:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Getting $50,000 that quickly, how do you do that?

• 27:47Speaker 02

  You can go to your bank if you have $50,000 in your savings account, which I do because I have to pay quarterly taxes. So I, I withhold, I save money and keep a lot of cash with me because, you know, I don't have, as, as I'm sure you also have to.

• 28:02Haley Sacks?

  Of course, you always have to because you, yeah, when you have unstable income.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you have it in your account, you can ask for it and they have to give it to you. It's your money.

• 28:09Haley Sacks?

  And so you went, you're on the phone with the guy and you're at the bank?

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:13Haley Sacks?

  Wow. Okay. That's so crazy. And then you like, how did you carry that all home?

• 28:19Speaker 02

  I mean, when it's in hundreds, it's just like a stack of bills.

• 28:23Haley Sacks?

  My gosh. You could have gone to the strip club.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, totally.

• 28:26Haley Sacks?

  I heard you mention on another show that we all sort of think we're way better at questioning authority than we actually are in practice. Like, in our heads, we would all like demand a badge and wait till the next day to go into the office and, you know, but when a federal agent is on the line, I feel like our brains really do panic. So when we are completely caught off guard, and obviously these scams are meant for us to feel like that, how do we actually fight that instinct? Like, do you have real tactical safeguards that we can use to question authority without letting fear take over?

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:00Haley Sacks?

  What steps do you give people to stay safe now? Because it's dangerous.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think the biggest thing, and, you know, you see this stuff all the time. It's like, how to stay safe with scams? Like, I get emails about this every day. And the biggest thing truly is just asking for help. Like, just have someone, like, it can be, could be any, it could be like the person in the next cubicle at work, just being like, does this look weird to you?

• 29:31Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Or like, I got a weird thing from American Express the other day that was like, your email address associated with your account has been changed. And I was like, I didn't do that.

• 29:44Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Like, that's weird.

• 29:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  And I looked at the email. It was very good. Like, I was like, this is a really good phishing email. And then I called the number on the back of my credit card. Like, they had all these, it was like, if you go online, you can check on this. And I was like, I'm not gonna click anything on this email. I'm just gonna call American Express, independent. You know, you always call the number.

• 30:04Haley Sacks?

  Good. Do your independent, like, go direct to the source.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:08Haley Sacks?

  So like, in your situation, what would have been, in a perfect world, how you would have handled that?

• 30:12Speaker 02

  I should have called my friend, who was a lawyer. You know, I should have, no one will ever not let you talk to someone else. Like, even when you are actually arrested, you get to make your phone call.

• 30:22Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you get to make a phone call.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  So have someone.

• 30:25Haley Sacks?

  That's so true. Like, you can say, like, okay, let me hang up, and I'm gonna talk to my attorney.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:30Haley Sacks?

  That's so true. We have to remember that.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  And it's really hard, because people who are really good at what they do will make you feel like you have to act immediately.

• 30:39Haley Sacks?

  But maybe it's like, also knowing that if there is this sense of urgency to take financial action, then that is a red flag.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  It is. And every single email tells you that, and I knew that. Like, I knew all that stuff.

• 30:51Haley Sacks?

  You knew all the things that didn't matter.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  It didn't matter, because when you're in that fight or flight syndrome, you're not like, hmm, let me examine the red flags.

• 30:58Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Like, I knew that they were all red flags, but I still was so scared. I was just like, this is a really big problem, and I have to figure out how to fix it.

• 31:07Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I totally understand. It also must have been hard, too, because it's like, your son was really young, you were probably like, you know, like, just in like a daze a little bit. You know, like, it's like, you were really emotional, probably, about that.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I also was busy.

• 31:21Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Like, if someone interrupts you in the middle of your day, you're just like, okay.

• 31:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, gotta get this done.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. That's so true. Okay, so let's give tactical advice.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:30Haley Sacks?

  What are, like, the archetypes that you talk about, so that it's like, if you're listening to this, it will give us information on what to look out for? Because that's what I think is so powerful about you sharing your story, is like, you know, then it gives us all insight into what is nefarious.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  The thing about scams is they're constantly changing. They have to evolve in order to, you know?

• 31:50Haley Sacks?

  Same.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Um, so it's hard to, you know, like, if you really want to get obsessive, you can, like, go on Reddit and, like, read about scams, because people post about them, but like, who has time to do that?

• 32:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  So it's hard to characterize the different types of scams. There are obviously the ones that are like, you know, you get texts every day that are like, hey, did you get my flowers? Or whatever. And you're just like...

• 32:15Haley Sacks?

  Or the toll booth one was really big.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Or like, or like, you have a package, and we need to...

• 32:21Haley Sacks?

  Yes, you need to just deliver it to our guy.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you know, like, the random phishing email that I got, that was like, we have a record that you just changed your email address associated with this account. Um, so they, they come, they come from all sides.

• 32:37Haley Sacks?

  What can we do to prevent it from happening?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:41Haley Sacks?

  Even though it is hard to prevent them happening?

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things I do now that are really paranoid. Um, like, I change my passwords regularly. I mean, these are, these are all like fairly normal things, ranging from like, normal to paranoid. Um, I, you know, clear my cookies religiously. Like, I'm very careful about, um, you know, every single time that you go to a new website, and they're like, can we record this information from you? I'm always like, no, you can't. There, there are certain things that you can do to sort of just like, protect your online presence. I'm not on social media, um, or I have accounts, but I don't post anything. I have a service that scrubs my data from data brokers.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  And mostly because I know that my social security number has been so compromised. But, um, there are certain things that you can do with filing your taxes, like, make special accounts and passwords through the IRS website.

• 33:39Haley Sacks?

  Oh, yeah, I know about this, with like, a PIN code and like, all these things.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:43Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Um, I keep my credit frozen.

• 33:45Haley Sacks?

  Of course, that's one of the best things to do.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  And I have some software on my computer that's like, um, you know, it warns you if things are coming, if you get emails that seem fishy, things like that. And I never pick up my phone.

• 33:59Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:01Haley Sacks?

  I was saying to you earlier that it's like, it's sort of like the Bell Burden thing with her sharing the story of strangers, and it's so powerful to share what happens to you financially, even if it's not what you wanted to have happened to you financially, because it makes people feel so much less alone and reflect on what they could be doing differently.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think also, so I, when I was reporting the story that I wrote, I interviewed a bunch of people who study scams. And one woman told me that they did, they studied two groups of people. The whole group, both of them had been targeted by scammers. And they wanted to look at the difference between people who had lost money and people who somehow managed to disengage. And the number one factor in the people who managed to disengage was not age. It wasn't education level. It wasn't like, you know, how much they knew about money or not. It was simply if they had heard of a similar scam happening.

• 35:03Speaker 05

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• 35:19Speaker 03

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• 35:47Speaker 03

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• 35:57Haley Sacks?

  Before we open our listener mailbag, because I can't have the financial advice columnist of the internet here without doing some Dear Sugar Mama, you've been reading the internet's deepest financial confessions for years now. So aside from your own story, which obviously is juicy, juicy, what is the absolute, like, is there one financial secret that hit your inbox that you'll never forget?

• 36:20Speaker 02

  I get a lot of people who

• 36:25Speaker 02

  are addicted to shopping, which I think everyone's a little addicted to shopping these days. Like, how can you not be? I think that was probably, those are probably the biggest ones, where people are like, I can't stop shopping.

• 36:37Haley Sacks?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  And then, and I'm like, how do you mean? And then I'm like, oh, you really can't.

• 36:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  You know, like, they need help. It's, it's real addiction stuff. I think also, like, you know, gambling stuff, like, it's, it's sad. It's dark.

• 36:54Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Like, there's some really dark shit that happens to people with money.

• 36:57Haley Sacks?

  It's a compulsion.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:59Haley Sacks?

  And it's also scary, because when you get into those holes with money, it's like, it's, you can hide it.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:04Haley Sacks?

  Like, if you're drinking, if you're an alcoholic, everyone knows you're drunk. If you're addicted to food, you're getting really fat. If you're like, a drug addict, like, you're gonna be acting weird. But it's like, if you're just in so much credit card debt, like, you can just silently suffer, which makes it worse.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 37:19Haley Sacks?

  Okay, so let's get into our Dear Sugar Mama, though. So I haven't seen these yet. My producer put these together, and I know they're related to things that you've covered in your column, so I'm excited. But we're getting a true expert opinion, so let's get into it.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Not a real expert.

• 37:32Haley Sacks?

  Okay, sorry, a true financial columnist's opinion. Dear Sugar Mama, I am 35, working in a coastal city, and barely skating by month to month. Meanwhile, my parents are living the absolute high life. I'm talking literally buying a yacht and bragging about their investments, while I drown under the crushing weight of the student loans they pressured me to take out. I'm consumed by a toxic mix of jealousy and rage. Why are they funding an ultra-luxury lifestyle instead of helping me build a baseline-stable life? And how do I confront them about paying it forward without starting a family war?

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Ugh. I mean, the millennial versus boomer conflict is like, it will never be resolved, right? Um, and...

• 38:23Haley Sacks?

  We want the money now.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:24Haley Sacks?

  They'll never let us have it. The Great Wealth Transfer gets pushed back every day.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  I know.

• 38:28Haley Sacks?

  We know it's coming, but when?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Is it, is it coming?

• 38:30Haley Sacks?

  Is it coming?

• 38:31Speaker 02

  I really feel for people in this position. I, I think, I think that there are a lot of people...

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Who, I graduated from college and the Great Recession hit the next year. So I'm an older millennial, in case you can't tell from my side part. And like throughout my twenties, we were, you know, all of my friends lost their jobs. Like I got lost my job. It was, it was rough going.

• 39:00Haley Sacks?

  It was normal.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it was normal. And so I think there, I think that when our parents' generation, the boomers, were coming up, they were dealing with a very different financial landscape. And I think that every generation always thinks the people who come after them have it easier. But I do think that millennials had a particularly difficult start. And, and boomers are also on paper, they're the wealthiest generation in American history. So.

• 39:36Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, they control 50% of all wealth in the US while millennials hold just around 10%.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Look, there are lots of boomers that are really supportive parents and good for them.

• 39:45Haley Sacks?

  60% of parents provide financial support to their adult children.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:49Haley Sacks?

  I personally think that the listener isn't asking for something crazy, like her parents are actually the outliers statistically by withholding help to her while flaunting extreme wealth. Like I don't really understand it.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't understand it either. In terms of what I think she should do, I think it's really worth talking to your parents, no matter what your money situation is, about what their financial situation is.

• 40:18Haley Sacks?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  And I think you can frame it as like a family discussion, like just being like, hey, I'm trying to learn more about this. I'm trying to plan for my future. And I'm curious how you have planned for your future. You can make it like an open conversation. It doesn't like, I would not recommend to anyone that they go to their parents being like, hey, you guys seem to have it pretty good. How about you pass some of that by way? That's not going to go well, no matter how open your parents are. But I do think the best way to start that conversation is to be transparent about your own struggles, because the parents might not know that she's struggling too.

• 40:58Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  I don't think just like asking for a blank check is a good idea, but just being like, hey, I'm having trouble with X and making it very specific. And sharing that you have a plan, like being like, this is what I'm working towards. I'm hoping to save X amount of money. And if you could help me with my student loans, then I would be able to do that. I think that having a really concrete plan, almost like a proposal, the way that you would go to a bank and being like, hey, I need a loan for X, Y, and Z. If you just go to the bank and you're like, give me money, they're not going to do that.

• 41:33Haley Sacks?

  Totally. You need to say your why.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you need to give your why and you need to show that you have a responsible plan. Like you don't want, you don't, you're asking basically for an investment from your parents. Not that they're going to get that money back, but they, I think most parents want to invest in their children. That's the whole point of, you know.

• 41:53Haley Sacks?

  Having a kid.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:54Haley Sacks?

  Sort of like a little startup.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And just being like, this is how much, this is how meaningful it would be to me if you could help me with this.

• 42:02Haley Sacks?

  Love that. Our next question, dear sugar mama, I'm a 34-year-old woman engaged to a 36-year-old man. And for the most part, I'm incredibly happy in my relationship. But he makes 250K while I make 130K. And as we look to combine finances, I am officially panicking. He treats our income like we're childless millionaires, blowing cash extravagantly while I'm stressed about saving for our future family. His generosity is why I fell in love with him. But now that we're talking prenups, how do I protect myself from his reckless spending habits without ruining the wedding?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Prenups are such a hot topic.

• 42:39Haley Sacks?

  I know.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  I, first of all, when it comes to sharing a budget with a significant other, people can do it all kinds of ways. But when there's a pretty big discrepancy in incomes and also financial priorities, I think sometimes it works best to do an income proportional split. So they'll look at their whole budget and the different things of their, all of their shared costs. Housing, food, whatever else they're sharing. And then they contribute proportionally, proportionately to what they're making. So if he's making twice as much as she is, then he would pay twice as much towards their bills.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  So I think that's, that's a good way for them to look at their shared costs. In terms of financial values, there are a lot of.

• 43:33Haley Sacks?

  They're not aligned.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, not aligned.

• 43:35Haley Sacks?

  Not aligned.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  And.

• 43:37Haley Sacks?

  And his lifestyle creep is threatening their actual network.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 43:41Haley Sacks?

  She's hitching her wagon to someone who could put her in the red.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think this happens all the time. And there's a huge faction on the internet that's like, girl, run, like.

• 43:51Haley Sacks?

  Girl, run, but it's like, it's hard to find someone.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Also, like, I mean, I think that actually people are attracted to their opposite.

• 44:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, like my parents are total opposites financially and it like really works for them.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, mine too. And even me and my husband, like he, I'm, I'm always the one who's like pumping the brakes. And I think that's a really positive thing, you know, like that, that works really well for a lot of people. So I don't think it's something to be afraid of. But I do think that it's something that they really need to talk about.

• 44:26Haley Sacks?

  Yes, that's really the issue with like any financial relationship thing is it's more just like, oh, like have you ever heard of this thing called communication?

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:35Haley Sacks?

  I don't know, like crazy thought.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 44:38Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  I recommend if they're going to do a prenup, which sounds like would not be a bad idea, that they do it through mediation, which is.

• 44:47Haley Sacks?

  Instead of lawyers, where there are one person working for both sides. I sort of think a prenup through mediation needs to be more normalized because it's always the lawyers who fuck you over and make all the tension.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. And I will say that till the cows come home. Like, I really think that mediation, if you're going to do a prenup, do it with a mediator. And you obviously, you still need to each hire your own respective lawyers, but you're probably going to wind up, the, the cost differential will probably come out in the wash because your lawyers aren't like going back and forth. The legal fees are a lot more expensive than mediator.

• 45:19Haley Sacks?

  This is what we want versus like two, you don't want to be two sides against each other. You want to be like two people who are working together to make the contract happen.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:27Haley Sacks?

  I love that.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:28Haley Sacks?

  You got to communicate. Okay. Dear sugar mama, I spend $450 a month on lasers, botox, and facials just to keep up with the endless pressure of modern beauty standards. My boyfriend recently found out the price tag and completely spiraled about our financial future, leaving me so mortified that I'm now actively lying to him, telling him I'm at therapy when I'm actually getting injectables and praying he doesn't check my location. I'm not a dishonest person, but the shame has trapped me. How do I fix this financial infidelity and what do I actually owe him in the way of transparency? And girls, by the way, this is why I will always have my own bank account because you will never catch me asking a man if I can get some shit squirted in my face, which is something I love to do.

• 46:14Haley Sacks?

  Couldn't be me.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  This is hard. I mean.

• 46:17Haley Sacks?

  Well, I think it's hard too, because it's like, all of the research shows that if you're attractive, you earn 20% more than below average looking colleagues. And for women, that premium is 100% dependent on grooming. So like makeup, skincare, but yeah, also injectables to a certain point.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:37Haley Sacks?

  But in the same way, 43% of adults admit to committing financial infidelity. I think it's none of his business. They're not married. Why does he know everything about her finances? And like, if it's her money, like this is why you need your own bank account. I don't think that it needs to be from your shared pot, but I think that you should have money on the side that you can spend on whatever you want. And I don't really think that this is, I just don't like that he is so judgmental. You should both be contributing to your financial future, but that doesn't mean that you don't get money on the side to use on things that are fun or that make you feel good.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  I totally agree. Yeah. I don't think that he or anyone's partner needs to know exactly where all of your money is going. I, I don't think that that benefits anyone. But I also don't think that you should lie about it. If they are going to combine finances, they should have a conversation about how much they're spending per month, each of them respectively.

• 47:39Haley Sacks?

  On their wants.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Just on, on anything, like what is your cash flow?

• 47:43Haley Sacks?

  Discretionary.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  I think that if you are in a place where you're going to be legally bound to someone else, then you do need to have a conversation about like what you make, what you spend.

• 47:53Haley Sacks?

  For sure.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  And what you have.

• 47:54Haley Sacks?

  Of course.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  But I don't think she needs to, you know, I don't think she owes him like her receipts, you know?

• 48:00Haley Sacks?

  No, no, no, no.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  This is very much what I have grown to understand after interviewing countless people about their money. Everybody has a thing. It might be like video games or it might be beauty stuff or it might be, you know, I don't know, some sort of like weird financial kink. Like everybody has something that they're a little bit or a lot embarrassed about that they spend money on. And I think that it's okay for them to spend money on that thing without having to tell everyone.

• 48:33Haley Sacks?

  I agree. Charlotte, this was so awesome. I really loved chatting with you and thank you for your transparency on your story. I feel like we learned so much about scams, but also, you know, ourselves in the process. And I'm glad that you agree that like you don't have to tell your boyfriend if you're getting botox. It's nice to meet a real one.

• 48:59Haley Sacks?

  Thank you guys so much for listening. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. We are on YouTube too, if you like to see a video of your favorite diva. And see you next week for more financial tea. Stay rich.